October 21, 2025 • 40 mins
“At the end of the day, your job is to build enterprise value as a CPO.” - Jodi McDermott
In this episode of Hard Calls, three-time CPO turned product and board advisor, Jodi McDermott at Switchback Advisory, talks with host Trisha Price. Together, they explore how to navigate the tough decisions product leaders face and what it takes to be a successful product leader today.
Here's what you'll discover:
The hard calls that protect team culture. The tough talent decisions every leader eventually faces: removing a high-performer who's quietly poisoning the team culture, and reassigning a beloved team member who is simply in the wrong role for them and for what the team needs.
When to walk away from a product. Not all revenue is good revenue, and a product leader needs to know when to say no in order to focus resources on what can actually scale.
Why financial acumen is a product leader's biggest flex. Product leaders must act as P&L owners, not just product visionaries. Learn the ideal investment distribution for most products: 30% maintain, 30% sustain, and 40% growth.
The strategic power of Product Operations. A good product ops team can be an extension of a CPO, setting the operating standards for the team, collecting and analyzing data, so the team can be free to explore and spend more time with users.
How to build connected teams. Embrace servant leadership and vulnerability to foster genuine connections with team members spanning the globe.
Episode Chapters
- (00:00) Introduction
- (01:05) The Hard Call: The Culture Hire or the High Performer?
- (04:30) The Right Person in the Wrong Role
- (07:45) Proving the ROI of R&D to PE-backers
- (11:00) Balancing Investments with Maintain, Sustain, Grow Distribution
- (15:00) Product Ops and How it Extends the CPO’s Strategic Influence
- (18:30) Building Vulnerability-Based Trust Across Teams
- (25:40) The #1 Skill Gap for Aspiring CPOs (and It’s More Than Curiosity)
- (30:45) AI Disruption: Internal Tools, Product Strategy & Changing Perceptions
- (36:45) The One-Way vs Two-Way Door Metaphor to Decision Making
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Presented by Pendo. Dive deeper at pendo.io or connect with Trisha Price on LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jodi McDermott (00:00):
Well, it comes down to what's good revenue, right?
So even if, so, you know, somebodyput on the table at that time, well,
what if we keep building it and wejust have a dedicated development
team that does the work and we justcarve it off and set it over here?
Okay, well, but it's never,it's never gonna grow to be a
10 million, $20 million product.
So you're never gonna get thatenterprise value multiple off of it.
(00:21):
It's this one thing over here.
So is it "good revenue?"That's not really good revenue.
Trisha Price (00:27):
If you build software or lead people who do,
then you're in the right place.
This is Hard Calls, real decisions,real leaders, real outcomes.
Hi everyone, I am TrishaPrice, and welcome back to
another episode of Hard Calls.
The podcast where we bring on thebest product leaders from across the
globe to talk about those moments, thedecisions that matter, the Hard Calls.
(00:52):
On today's show, I am thrilled to welcomeJodi McDermott, a three-time Chief Product
Officer who is now serving as a boardmember, as well as advising and coaching
c-suite on how, how to help drive businessoutcomes and build great products.
She is greatly respected becauseof her track record of delivering
exceptional returns and her passionfor building authentic relationships
(01:15):
that foster business outcomes.
Welcome to Hard Calls, Jodi.
Jodi McDermott (01:19):
Thank you.
Trisha Price (01:20):
I'm so excited for you to be here and for this conversation.
Jodi and I have known eachother for a while and I'm just
so excited for her to share herexperience today with all of you.
So, Jodi, today, thisis called Hard Calls.
Our podcast is Hard Calls, andso we always like to start with
a hard call you've had to make.
(01:41):
So tell us, looking back over your career,or even just the past year, whatever,
share a hard call that you've had to make.
What made it so challengingand what did you learn from it?
Jodi McDermott (01:53):
Well, I think as a Chief Product Officer, you have a lot
of Hard Calls that you have to make.
I mean, the buck stops with you, right?
I mean, you this role, Trishaas well, we've talked about it.
And it usually comes down to people,products, and sometimes customers too,
if trying to make those Hard Calls.
So, when I was thinking aboutour conversation for today and what
(02:15):
two Hard Calls, that I could thinkof that popped to my mind over the
last several years of my career.
And I can't say that it didn'thappen, not more than once 'cause
it, they come all the time.
They usually come down to peopleand obviously, and what you're
doing around products, right?
So let's start with people.
At the end of the day, peopleare what make businesses tick.
(02:38):
And when you are a leader and youhave people on your team, especially
'cause your team gets larger.
You have people that you trust thatbring great experience and expertise.
And then you also have people who havebeen on the journey with the company for
a long time who might be cheerleadersand loyalists, and they are, they've
(02:59):
contributed so much, but maybe somethingabout the company's really changed.
And it's time for new leadership.
And so I think those hard callsevery executive faces and I can
think of a couple of hard callsparticularly that have fallen into
both of those categories with people.
If you've ever had somebody inyour organization that maybe
(03:21):
was a really high performer,but they weren't a cultural fit.
Trisha Price (03:26):
Yes.
Jodi McDermott (03:27):
And maybe they ruffled a lot of feathers and it wasn't
one time, but it was continuous.
There's been times I've had to makea really hard call to move a high
performer out because I knew it waspulling down the rest of the team.
And sometimes it's hard toeven see it's happening.
And because people are afraid to saysomething and you have to be watching
out for that to be able to protect,the totality of the team, right?
(03:51):
And other hard calls have included whenyou have somebody who's a performer
that they're a wonderful person.
They're a wonderful human being,and you know they are gonna crush
it in a different role, but the rolethey're that they're in is not what
you need for your actual team, right?
To get you where you're gonna go.
Trisha Price (04:09):
I love that, Jodi.
It's so hard.
At nCino where I worked prior to coming toPendo Pierre, our CEO, had this quadrant,
and he would call it the competentjerk was the exactly what you were just
talking about, and the lovable fool.
And he kind of had this quadrant ofexactly what you're talking about.
(04:30):
And I love the conversation about whenpeople are in the wrong role, even though
you know they're not just an amazingcultural fit, but they have value to
add, but just not in the role they're in.
I think the hardest part of that call iswhen they don't see it, when they love
the job and you're like, oh my gosh, Iknow your career's gonna explode if we can
give you access and opportunity somewhereelse, but they don't wanna take it.
(04:53):
That is probably the toughest scenario.
Jodi McDermott (04:55):
It really is.
It's hard because I love people.
I'm a people person and it's hardwhen you have to sit down and have a
really hard conversation with somebody.
Because you just want them, you knowthey're gonna be better on the other
side, at the end of the day, if you can bekind, and clear on what needs to happen.
But another hard call that I wantedto share with you is that there
(05:15):
was a product hard call that Ithink took me a while to make.
And I had, it was, we had acquireda company that had a product that
they were building for one customer.
So it was a, a product that they hadcontracted to build this product.
And everybody felt like they were close tothe finish line, close to the finish line.
(05:39):
And every quarter that would go by.
We just needed one more quarter.
One more quarter.
And I had a few executiveson, my peers that were going,
what are we doing over here?
Why are we spending money on this?
But, when you especially whenyou acquire a company, you
have a new customer coming in.
You're trying to be apromise keeper, right?
Like product, you're trying to be promisekeeper as much as you possibly can.
(06:03):
And that was one that was a really hardcall that we finally made the decision
that we were gonna go negotiate to getout of this agreement, and that we had
to say, no, we had to stop because wedidn't see profitability down the line.
At one point we did, and then itjust kept dwindling and dwindling.
And especially when you are working inprivate equity and you have a timeline
(06:24):
for how you're spending those R&D dollars.
You just can't be deploying it whereyou're not gonna get the return.
And that was a really, really hard call.
And I would say that was probably onethat I was, it was definitely influenced
on, it was there, it was discussionwith my CEO, and my CFO, and others and
how we were gonna manage the customer.
(06:44):
But that was a hard one.
As a product officer of having to goand tell a customer, "No, we can't keep
going and we can't keep doing this."
Trisha Price (06:51):
That I'm so glad you shared that because sunsetting
products or disappointing a particularcustomer is probably one of the
hardest things we do as CPOs.
You and I both know, evenif you finished the product.
Products are never finished, right?
Jodi McDermott (07:10):
No.
Trisha Price (07:10):
And so it's like even if you met the needs of that particular
customer and got live there would'vebeen asks for forever for that.
And making that difficult decisionnot to do a one-off for a customer,
but to try to invest thoseR&D dollars where you can get.
A multiple where everybody's using it isobviously always the right choice, but
(07:32):
that doesn't mean it's the easy choice.
Jodi McDermott (07:34):
Well, it comes down to what's good revenue, right?
Somebody put on the table at that time,"Well, what if we keep building it and
we just have a dedicated developmentteam that does the work and we just
carve it off and set it over here?"Okay, but it's never gonna grow to be a
10 million, $20 million product, right?
So you're never gonna get thatenterprise value multiple off of it.
(07:56):
It's this one thing over here.
So, is it good revenue?
It's not good revenue.
Yeah.
So, those are the hard ones when,and then you have people on the other
line that you have friendships withand, or at least relationships with.
Trisha Price (08:11):
Yeah.
Trust.
Jodi McDermott (08:11):
And having to go and have that conversation's really tough.
Trisha Price (08:16):
It's so hard.
And you mentioned, the fact that itwas private AI equity-backed, and
when you're in PE that pressure, thatpressure to get a return from your R&D.
And how do you, when you're a CPO orin the C-suite at a private equity
company where there is tremendouspressure to deliver value, how do you
(08:40):
balance that rapid value creation thatneed for good revenue quickly with the
need for long-term product innovation?
Jodi McDermott (08:50):
I think a lot of it has to do with getting
telemetry around your R&D spend.
Yeah.
Where are you spending the dollars?
Right?
When I usually walk in the doorat any company, the first thing I
wanna know is where are the people?
Where are the dollarsassociated with those people?
How are they deployed againstthe product architecture?
What's the ARR?
(09:10):
What are the bookings?
What were the bookings last year?
What are the bookings this year?
Or what's the potential for the bookings?
And what is that percentage allocationagainst, those baseline numbers, and are
we deploying it in a way that's optimized?
Are we spending everything tryingto get outta tech debt or are we
just grow, grow, grow, and we'remounting tech debt on the other side?
(09:32):
The goal is to have a good,healthy balance in there.
And getting it carved out where you havethose growth dollars carved out at a
really healthy percentage and then stackrank or organizing it in a myopic way
of, okay, what are we gonna invest in?
Right?
Where's that cut line?
We can't do everything.
Yep.
What?
(09:52):
What are all the opportunitiesthat we can go after?
And then it's a lot offinancial discipline.
Yeah, so I encourage CPOs bring your FP&Ateam in and get them really close to you.
Right?
I always wanted.
My FP&A analyst, who is my, who ismine, I know who is my FP&A analyst.
Trisha Price (10:13):
Jodi, I was at the Pendo headquarters last week in Raleigh, and
I saw the FP&A analyst who I workedso tightly with my first couple of
years at Pendo and I was like, Matthew!
Matthew!
And we built so many spreadsheetstogether when I first came into
Pendo, just specifically for meand how I needed to look at things.
(10:35):
And I am so with you.
Those numbers matter so much.
Jodi McDermott (10:39):
Mine with Allister, you're out there.
Allister, he, Allister was amazing andjust, was a strategic thought partner of,
okay, well, if we deploy R&D resourcesin this region, what's the cost?
Well, wait.
With the talent over here in thisregion, so how much is it gonna cost?
And how quickly could we build somethingversus can we do a slow roll on it?
Do we swarm on it?
(10:59):
And all the differentscenarios around that.
Which goes back to how quickly dowe have to go to market, right?
How quickly do we need to launchsomething in private equity you
don't have years to build a productto eventually get it out there.
You have maybe a quarter or two, to putyou put a stake in the ground and then
you've gotta iterate it off of it quicklyand start building that snowball of ARR.
Trisha Price (11:22):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (11:23):
Yeah.
Trisha Price (11:23):
And so, when you're doing that and you're pulling together numbers,
do you have standard percentages thatare in your head that like if they're
not spending on sort of tech debtand modernization, it's a red flag?
Or if they're not spending ingrowth, that it's a red flag?
Or is it more nuanced than that?
Jodi McDermott (11:43):
I think it depends on the stage of the company.
I mean, what 20-year-old SaaS companydoesn't have a mound of tech debt, right?
It's kind of rare these days.
Trisha Price (11:53):
Maybe 10 years, right?
Jodi McDermott (11:54):
Even 10 years.
Yeah.
I think, startups nowadays, they'regoing out there and they don't have
that tech debt, and so a lot of timesthey're getting products out to market
really, really quickly, but then theyhit a scalability issue and they have to
re-architect their foundation, et cetera.
You're gonna hit at some point that you'regonna hit some level of a distribution.
I always like to start with adistribution of what I call,
(12:18):
maintain, sustain, and grow.
30%, 30%, 40%. Now, that isnot true for all products.
It is not true for all companies.
I mean, it's just a startingpoint to say, okay, where are you?
And then of course there's always a big,huge debate over well, what goes into
retention, what goes into maintenance.
I have never joined any companywhere there has not been a religious
(12:41):
discussion around that topic.
But I think that's a good starting point.
And then knowing, here's the main thing.
If you walk into a company andit's 50% retention work in 50%
maintenance, and you're not doinganything to grow the business, well,
you got a red flag right there.
Right, right.
So there's no perfect number.
It's more so of, where areyou against the baseline of,
(13:03):
are you high or low or medium?
And where do you think you needto be to actually hit the numbers
of what's in your financial plan.
And what can you do creatively tochallenge your engineering team for what
they need to be doing on the technicalside or challenging your product managers?
Hey, what I like to say, don't be inthe hamster wheel of just doing like
(13:23):
feature, feature, feature, feature.
What are we doing to really growand build muscle in the business?
Trisha Price (13:28):
So you mentioned earlier that when you are trying to do new
features or new products that haveintentional growth or ARR goals,
you don't have years, you don'thave two and three years to do that.
In this atmosphere, you have a quarter ora couple of months, maybe two quarters.
How do you manage that?
How do you manage getting a qualityproduct out there for people and driving
(13:53):
those business outcomes at the same time?
Jodi McDermott (13:55):
I think it depends what it is, right?
It's it you always have yourbuild by partner scenario.
Yep.
And so if you've got a core baseline ofa product and you can iterate quickly to
get a new module built onto it, or you canstratify from, a bronze, silver, gold into
a platinum version of that product andhit a new segment or TAM of the market.
(14:19):
Those are opportunities.
I think that's all of the work thatyou're constantly doing of, okay, how
long will it take for us to stretch inthis press, part of our ICP to expand
out if we do these X, Y, Z things, right?
Who can we go buy that's already builta company that we can integrate in that
would be a good partner for us, right?
(14:39):
Yeah.
And it always takes two to tango.
They may not wanna selleven though you wanna buy.
Right?
And then there's alwaysa partner route too.
Partner routes can havepros and cons of partnering.
Because you can get stuck with a partnerwhere you don't have enough control
over what you wanna do et cetera.
And so I think it's, it's getting yourproduct team to always be thinking about
(15:00):
what can we do to be building off of thebase that we already have, and then what
are those opportunities usually in an M&Astandpoint, especially in private equity
because of the timeline to go build andintegrate and pull something new in that
we can cross sell into our customers.
Trisha Price (15:18):
That makes a lot of sense.
So when you think about the processes ofbuilding products, maintaining products
in private equity, and honestly inthese days, for all of us, operational
efficiency is just critical, right?
Margin profitability is so important.
(15:39):
Are there particular processes orstructures that you have been able
to change or unlock that have reallyhelped you see significant gains?
Jodi McDermott (15:50):
Oh, Trisha, you're gonna love my answer.
Trisha Price (15:53):
Oh, boy!
Jodi McDermott (15:53):
You know what I'm gonna say, don't you?
Trisha Price (15:55):
I hope so.
Jodi McDermott (15:55):
Product operations is near and dear to my heart.
Trisha Price (16:01):
Product operations.
I love it.
And we did not plan to talkabout product operations.
Jodi McDermott (16:04):
I know, but like, isn't that what Pendo is
famous for is essentially, is it?
You sit right in that core function.
Yeah.
I'm a huge fan of product operations.
I think it's a really criticalfunction in a product organization.
It literally can give leverage to a CPO ifthey know how to really use that function.
(16:24):
It can, it's just an extension ofthem getting everything done from an
executive, an administrative standpointthat you need to get done to support
a strategic operating cadence.
And so, I'm a big believer thatif you can build out a strong
operating model and there's lots ofoperating models out there, pick one.
(16:44):
It like, there's noperfect operating model.
I think we all have had exposure tooperating models and we make it our own,
but whether it's that cadence of makingsure that your team is, touching certain
aspects of their product developmentlifecycle on a regular cadence and showing
their work, whether it's bringing in theright tooling and nowadays a lot of the AI
(17:08):
tooling that's coming into place, right?
So, it's implementing things like Pendoand actually using the data and getting
the telemetry to optimize what users aredoing and how they're using the product.
So, I think product operations is areally great place to start of just
getting standards in place across theboard for, for product managers that
(17:29):
let them do their job and give themthe freedom to really explore and
spend time with customers and users.
Trisha Price (17:36):
I love that.
Yeah, I totally agree with you, Jodi.
In terms of product operations, for me,what I love about it is it can help us
always baseline our product conversationsin a business outcome, right?
What were we trying to achievelast quarter or last month?
What are we trying to achieve and why?
(17:57):
And are we, and it's okay when we're not.
Let's not just keep doing the same thing.
If we're not, but being able to havethat measurement of what the outcome is.
And sometimes it's usage, like you talkedabout Pendo, sometimes it's ARR, right?
Sometimes it's support tickets we'retrying to reduce in a particular
(18:17):
product, kind of to your point,depending on the product's maturity.
But I love how product operations canreally help us look at each product,
look at each initiative, where we arein the product development life cycle,
and help bring that rigor of measurementto the table for our conversations.
Jodi McDermott (18:34):
Yeah, and it opens up at the end of the day too, if
you have that operating model inplace, you start to find where you're
spending dollars that you shouldn't.
Or where it's time to stop investing ina product and let it ride for a little
while and get it ready to be sunset.
A good product operations leaderis watching that entire cycle,
and really helping to optimize it.
Trisha Price (18:59):
I love that.
So true.
So switching gears a little bit andcoming back to your other, your first
hard call, which was around people.
I know that as a leader, youare a great product leader.
You know how to do things likemake decisions based on data and
investment data and product operations,but you also know the how to hire
(19:20):
and put together a great team.
And I know you emphasizeservant leadership.
And trust-based vulnerability.
How do you create that kind ofspecial culture where the right
people want to come work onyour team, but at the same time.
There, the pressure to deliverresults doesn't go away.
(19:40):
Right?
Like, just because we have a greatculture, just because we, are
a people-first and care aboutpeople, doesn't mean that we
don't have pressure and results.
So tell me how you balance those.
Jodi McDermott (19:52):
Oh, you know the last team, my last team.
I think we did a really greatjob of of building that.
You do have to make sure that youget your team together, you get them
offsite, you spend time doing thingsoutside of the office, if you will,
and you get them knowing each other.
And one of, I think the best exampleswas my last CTO partner, he and I were
(20:18):
really great partners of bringing ourproduct leadership team together and
engineering leadership team together.
Trisha Price (20:24):
Love that!
Jodi McDermott (20:25):
They needed to really build that vulnerability-based trust.
And we had multiple cultures involved.
So we had Americans, we had Canadians,we had British, and we had Indian.
Right?
So, everybody thinks differently.
They express themselves differently.
Some of some are more direct, some area little bit more subtle in the way that
(20:46):
they talk about what's important to them.
And so we would do a weekly callthat we held every single week,
and we took turns of who was gonnafacilitate and who was gonna scribe.
And everybody took a turn.
So every single person on that wholecall would take a turn from, we had
directors all the way up to, myselfand the CTO, and we all took turns at
(21:10):
facilitating and scribing, and we wouldalways start off with an icebreaker.
Right?
And that was the starting point.
Right?
Of just getting to and the most amazingcultural things would come out of
that because, a pop culture type ofquestion might get asked and people
in another culture would go, we haveno idea what you're talking about.
Or they would say the same thingand we would be like, I don't
(21:31):
know how to answer the question.
And we'd laugh and we'd start to learnabout, what we were thinking about.
And it led also into, it was a nice wayto grease into, okay, now we're gonna
talk about the real hard things thatwe're doing of people, processes, tools,
and it started to really build trust.
(21:51):
When people feel like you can connect ona level that you're talking about your
kids, you're talking about what you didthis weekend, now you don't have to open
up what they call the Johari window sobig that you were like pouring your soul
out, but certainly sharing a few thingsabout yourself that people don't know
about you, so that you become more human.
(22:13):
And when you become more human, itis a lot easier to talk about the
hard stuff we have to get done.
And it's easier also to get peoplemotivated that, yeah, we got some
hard work to do, but you are gonnafeel really good when we get it done
and we're all gonna do it togetherand we're gonna be in it together.
So I think it's that combination ofbringing people together, modeling that
(22:35):
behavior, and encouraging people to openup and talk about what's on their minds.
There were many times that we'd be, we'dbe in our 9-Box Zoom call, et cetera,
and especially through COVID, my gosh,16-Box Zoom call and really going out of
our way to be, "hold on, Trisha, I thinkyou had you, I can see it on your face.
What are you thinking?
(22:56):
Tell us what you're thinking.
Like I wanna hear your voice andencouraging people to speak up." And
you may not always agree with what theysay, but you wanna get that dialogue
out there and you wanna get peoplechallenging and talking to each other.
And for the people that don't talkon those calls, there's a lot of
coaching going on behind the scenes.
Yeah.
Hey, you need to speak up.
(23:16):
Like, when you're in a leadershiprole, your voice is critical
that it's at the table.
Yeah.
You gotta participate.
Trisha Price (23:23):
Gotta participate.
And one of the things I reallytry to encourage in those types of
conversations too is critiquing youridea or critiquing the strategy for
your product is not critiquing you.
Jodi McDermott (23:39):
And, that's hard, right?
Because it becomes your baby.
Trisha Price (23:43):
I know.
And it's also, there's anart to doing that, right?
There's an art to makingsure you aren't critique.
You have to look at yourself in themirror too and say, did I critique
them or did I critique the product?
And then the listener has to feel.
Well, am I treating it like it'smy baby or am I treating it like
(24:03):
I need to do the right thing todeliver the business outcome?
And I feel like those conversationsare so critical to get right for
culture, and you can't just letsomeone's bad idea go because.
You don't wanna be mean.
But at the same time, you don'tneed to annihilate people.
Right.
And that's just so hard because sometimesI've heard, especially earlier in my
(24:27):
career, I've heard people say thingslike, don't criticize in public.
Right?
Only praise in public.
But when you're in product and you'rein a group session where you're
trying to get product strategy andtrying to get the right decisions.
You can't not criticize the idea, youcan't not criticize the product, but
you don't have to criticize the people.
And that's just, I don't know, it's alwaysbeen a hard thing for me to get right.
Jodi McDermott (24:49):
You know what?
I always encourage peopleto do ask questions.
I've been in scenarios.
I remember sitting in a big, it was ourexecutive leadership team and our senior
leadership team there, a couple other morejunior folks that had joined the meeting.
And, at the time, the CEO had saidsomething that somebody told me
later, like, that was incorrect.
He, didn't have all the information.
I'm like.
(25:09):
Ask a question.
Trisha Price (25:11):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (25:11):
Just ask a question.
He would've wanted you toask that question, right?
Yeah.
Or, when people ping me what they justsaid was wrong, ask a question and you
can say it in a way that's illuminating.
Illuminating, and not.
Like you don't wanna, you wanna becareful not to put the person on the
back foot if they didn't realize thatthey didn't have all the information.
Trisha Price (25:30):
Right.
Jodi McDermott (25:31):
Oh, well, hey Trisha, did you know that we just
got more feedback from a customer?
Has that gotten to you yetabout that feature and why it's
not meeting the business need?
Oh no, I haven't gotten that.
Can somebody send that over my way?
I'd love to see it.
Right?
So I try to encourage people, askquestions, and that a lot of times,
even when you are coaching peopleon how to criticize their own
product by asking them questions.
(25:53):
They're asking themselves the questionsand they've gotta get to that moment
of honesty and of what's actuallyhappening and data's a beautiful thing.
Trisha Price (26:03):
I love that.
That's a beautiful thing that, well, Ithink asking questions can be so powerful.
Other than that.
What are other tips or tricks orpieces of advice that you give to
your product managers who are aspiringto be product leaders or product
leaders that are aspiring to be a CPO?
(26:24):
Like, how are you helping them?
What advice are you giving thisnext generation of leaders?
Jodi McDermott (26:30):
Be curious.
That's always, I mean, with everythingthat's changing right now with, I
mean, you and I both lived throughthe SaaS and mobile eras if you
will, it's the AI era now, right?
And so you be open and be curious andbe studying and be trying new things.
(26:51):
To anyone who wants to be A CPO,learn the financials of the business.
Trisha Price (26:59):
I love that.
Jodi McDermott (27:00):
Really understand what are the levers that are gonna drive
enterprise value in the business.
It's gonna be top-line growth,bookings growth, and annual
recurring revenue in a SaaS business.
It's gonna be that gross retention rateof keeping those customers renewing
and and staying on the product, right?
And it's gonna be at the same time havinga really clean shop of operations, and
(27:23):
especially also on the technical sidethat you're not building up a whole
bunch of technical debt, but like learnyour product craft as you're going.
But do not shy away at all of what yourinvestors, whether you are a privately
held company, founder-led, or publiccompany, how do you make decisions
that impact the value of the company?
(27:45):
At the end of the day, your jobis to build enterprise value
as a CPO, and there's a lot ofdifferent ways and levers to do it.
That starts with a productmanager learning their product.
Right.
My favorite question to ask productmanagers, especially in group settings,
is how many of you know the bookingsnumber for your product this year?
Trisha Price (28:05):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (28:06):
Not all of them do.
Right?
Yeah.
And they, if, if they're gonna run amini business, they gotta know like,
what is the sales team trying to achieve?
What is the average sale value ofmy, of my product, and how often
are we winning and or losing?
For every at bat, are we hitting it?
Are we, not hitting it?
(28:27):
And what do I need to do as a productmanager to optimize this product that's
going out the door so that customersnot only buy it, but they renew it.
So I think the, the financial acumenis a huge piece that I just can't
emphasize enough, is probably oneof the areas that I see is a, a
growth area for so many, productmanagers and even aspiring executives.
(28:50):
So there's the technology side,there's the creativity side
of building great products.
But if you really wanna cascade upinto the next level of your career,
you, you've gotta make sure thatfinancial basis is there as well.
Trisha Price (29:03):
I totally agree Jodi, and I said this so many times, like to me that's
the biggest difference when, especiallywhen you're jumping from like Director to
VP or VP up, you gotta know this business.
You've gotta understand the businessmetrics where, where they could
be optimized, where little tweaksin your product strategy can, can
(29:25):
help jump forward ARR or margin,wherever you are in the cycle.
And I think understanding the businessmetrics is so critically important.
Jodi McDermott (29:35):
And it doesn't discount, right?
You still need to know what's happeningwith the competition Of course.
And what are they releasing and howare they positioning their product?
It is multidimensional.
I'm just saying there's one side of it offocusing on like, do you, the telemetry
around your product is not just howmany people clicked on something or used
it today, monthly, daily active users.
(29:55):
Yep.
It goes so much deeper than that.
And yes, as a product manager, wecould take that and slice it right
down into the narrowness of a productmanager, get closer and closer and
closer to your user and customer.
I can't emphasize that enough, right?
There's a lot of product managersand CPOs that don't spend enough
time with customers out in the field.
(30:16):
How are they using it?
What does my productlook like in the wild?
And really understanding that, so that,that's probably the more practical side
of it that you, that you'd add to it.
Trisha Price (30:26):
Even like, what's your strategy, right?
When I think about executives talkingto other customer, like to the
customer executive, then it's likenot just how are you using my product?
What do you like about it?
Is it delivering value for you?
But where are you taking yourbusiness over the next three years?
Jodi McDermott (30:44):
How can we be a partner for you?
Trisha Price (30:47):
Yeah, that means it's a game changer for how you think about your
product strategy and investments whenyou know your most strategic customers
and what their three year and five yearplan are, so that you can really start
to align not just the here and now andwhat they like about your product, but
you know where you're going togetherover the next three to five years.
Jodi McDermott (31:05):
Yeah.
The dynamics change a lot.
I think, back in the days of just,writing stories in Jira and building
a product backlog, et cetera.
As your career progresses, there's a lotof other dimensions that have to come
into it and skill sets to really roundout being a fulsome product leader.
Trisha Price (31:23):
So as you're, engaging with different product companies
and different product leaders today,how are you thinking about AI?
Right.
There's, for all of us building product,it's incorporating AI, whether it's
agentic experiences, conversationalinterfaces, AI summaries into our
(31:44):
product or using, you had mentionedthis a little bit earlier, AI tools
to give us more efficiency, howare you advising the people you're
working with today in terms of AI?
Jodi McDermott (31:58):
Well, I think you need to look at AI and how it's gonna
disrupt every aspect of business.
And that's a very broad statementto start off with, right?
Yeah.
But I'm sure at Pendo you're lookingat, how do we not only optimize our
operations, customer success, supportsales, what tool sets can we use
to, build better pipeline, right?
(32:21):
Or increase our win rate?
And those are all internal operations.
But it's also how do you incorporatethat into your product so that your end
user is getting that same, same leverage.
So I think there, there's an internalview to it of what are all the tool
sets that could apply to how, whereI spend time in my job and what I do.
(32:41):
Right?
So you're a product manager,writing user stories or PRDs, are
you doing competitive intelligence?
The tools can save you a ton of time.
Now they're not, they're not alwaysa replacement for a human, but they
certainly can give you a lot of leverage.
So that you can, and insteadof doing 500 Google searches,
you can have a starting point.
(33:03):
That's a lot has a lotmore thickness to it.
So I, I think any, any product personout there should just be looking
at every single aspect of how theyspend their day and all the tasks
that they do, and what are ways thatthey can be applying AI to go faster.
I think it's also important of, where isyour company adopting it and what are the
(33:24):
privacy rules ,and what's the governancethat you've put into place to make sure
that you don't have IP going out thedoor, especially with your product folks
and the searches they might be doing.
So I think that's important fora leader to be thinking about
putting it into the product.
You're thinking about it just onthe other side of that table, right?
And I think for product people,it's probably kind of easier
(33:45):
to think about it that way.
You just have to go to the other sideof the table and just look back and
say, okay, if I was using this justas if I was using any of these other
products I use in my day-to-day, whatwould I, where would I inject AI in?
What would I do?
Where does it make sense andwhere does it not make sense?
Trisha Price (34:00):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (34:01):
It's a powerful tool.
Trisha Price (34:03):
It is so powerful.
And you're right.
I mean, we at Pendo are rethinkingevery one of our processes
and where can we use ai?
And we've had.
Some huge wins and we've hadsome places where we've learned
maybe it didn't work as well.
And that's on the internal andthe external side of things.
And I think right now for all of us,we've gotta keep experimenting and
(34:25):
keep trying and learn new things andfigure out what works and doesn't work.
But I do think everything is sortof on the brink of change right now.
Jodi McDermott (34:33):
You know what I think is really interesting though
in this timeframe is that I think.
I think our kids are in similarage ranges, if I remember.
Trisha Price (34:43):
Yes.
Jodi McDermott (34:43):
But our kids grew up with no AI.
No AI.
No AI.
It's cheating.
It's cheating.
It's cheating.
And it was hammered into their heads.
Yeah.
And so now, of course I'm trying to get mykids to think about AI and they're like.
Stop.
They're like, no, it's bad.
It's like, no, it's not bad.
Right?
Trisha Price (34:59):
And it's not bad.
Jodi McDermott (35:00):
It's not bad.
And I think there's a lot of employersout there who have to almost give
permission to that generation where AI wasintroduced and they were quick adopters
of taking a look at it and using it.
And then they were quickly,harnessed, wait, hold on.
You can't do your test andhomework on that, right?
(35:21):
And so I see schools starting to embraceit a lot more and try to work it into
the curriculum and get that permissiongoing with the younger generation.
I say younger generation, mygosh, like, multiple, who knows
how that is even defined, but.
I'm part of the youngergeneration, aren't we?
Both?
Trisha Price (35:38):
Of course.
We're part of it.
Jodi McDermott (35:39):
We're still young.
We're still young, but I think therethat there is a group of folks out there
who, weren't given that permission.
And in that the world is changing soquickly that I think it's upon leadership
team members to also really encouragetheir team to like, use it, try it.
I want you using it.
This is how it's gonna help you.
(36:00):
It's gonna, it's not gonna replace you.
It's gonna augment youto be, supercharged.
To do so much more work in a value.
Your brain becomes the valueadd on top of what AI does.
Trisha Price (36:10):
So true.
My kids, Jodi, makefun of me all the time.
I'll be doing something.
They're like, did you just AI that?
Whether it's like planning a tripor getting ready for a list of
questions at a doctor's appointment.
They're like, did you just dida, did you just ChatGPT that mom?
And I'm like, why is that?
Jodi McDermott (36:26):
Yes, I did.
Trisha Price (36:28):
Guys, you should be congratulating me.
And then this weekend we had afascinating conversation about.
AI being people and certain like arepeople going to have philosophical
issues with it, and are theygonna have biases against AI?
(36:50):
And do we need to rethink justlike many years ago, how we had
biases against certain groups ofpeople and rethink that with AI.
And it was like a crazy,fascinating discussion in our house
with as a family this weekend.
It was pretty fun.
I know.
Yeah.
Wild.
It's wild.
Jodi McDermott (37:08):
It's an intellectually stimulating conversation to have.
Trisha Price (37:11):
It is.
It's, but it is definitelygoing to change our world.
Well, Jodi, as we close out today, I dowanna come back to Hard Calls and just
ask you one more question as we finish up.
You said this in the beginning, andI totally agree, and it's actually
why I created this podcast, iswhat makes product hard is that
everyone has an opinion, right?
(37:32):
Sales thinks they knowwhat's best for the product.
Yeah, support team, like ifyou just fix this one thing,
it would make my life better.
Customers have opinions for products.
They want you to build our board, turneverything upside down and go AI first.
But at the end of the day, we'rethe ones accountable and we're the
(37:53):
ones who have to make that call.
So how do you think aboutdata versus gut instincts?
And like what you really leanon in terms of what's critical
to get the hard calls, right?
Jodi McDermott (38:08):
It's gotta be both, right?
I think that, you have to have telemetryaround the decisions that you're making.
As a product leader.
Now that's sometimes really hard.
You might walk into abusiness and there's no data.
I've had that where there's limitedamount of data, and so you're going
more off gut instinct than you're goingoff of data-driven, but you might pull
(38:33):
that information from a cross-functionalgroup of people to understand, well,
tell me what's going on in the business.
And you do have to make a discerningcall based off of what is a little
bit more I'd say EQ versus IQof, of what might be coming in.
But it's also your job to get thattelemetry going so that you can at
(38:54):
least reduce the margins in some ofthose calls, 'cause sometimes you
have to make a call and you, you don'thave all the data, you just have to
pick a point and start moving forward.
And I, I think the, the one thingto be careful of is, somebody shared
the concept with me of a one-waydoor or a two-way door, right?
(39:15):
Yep.
So is it a door that you can walkback through or is it a one-way
door that you can never turnaround and undo what you've done?
Yeah.
And so I think that's another dimensionyou can layer on top of that is as you
start to make hard calls and decisions.
Yep.
Yet there are often ones thatyou have to make a really hard
call and it's a one way door.
And the question is, is how high arethe stakes when you make that decision?
Trisha Price (39:39):
So true.
And the higher the stakes,the more data you want.
Right?
Jodi McDermott (39:45):
But you can't have analysis paralysis either.
Yeah, right?
And so I think a, a good productleader has, has that gut instinct
to, sleep on it, see how you reallyfeel about it, and you sometimes.
You just have to make the hardcall without all of the information
because you know the businesshas to keep moving forward.
(40:06):
Yeah.
Jodi, at Pendo we say no
Trisha Price (40:09):
decision is still a decision.
So you made a decision.
You just made no decision.
That might be the worst call, you know?
Jodi McDermott (40:17):
That's true.
That's very true.
Trisha Price (40:19):
Yeah.
Well, Jodi, thank you so much forbeing on Hard Calls for this episode.
I know our listeners have learnedso much from this conversation.
I have too.
Always a joy to spend some time with you.
Jodi McDermott (40:30):
Likewise.
Trisha Price (40:31):
Thank you so much.
Jodi McDermott (40:32):
Thank you.
Trisha Price (40:33):
Thank you for listening to Hard Calls, the product podcast,
where we share best practices andall the things you need to succeed.
If you enjoyed the show today, sharewith your friends and come back for more.
Well, it comes down to what's good revenue, right?
So even if, so, you know, somebodyput on the table at that time, well,
what if we keep building it and wejust have a dedicated development
team that does the work and we justcarve it off and set it over here?
Okay, well, but it's never,it's never gonna grow to be a
10 million, $20 million product.
So you're never gonna get thatenterprise value multiple off of it.
(00:21):
It's this one thing over here.
So is it "good revenue?"That's not really good revenue.
Trisha Price (00:27):
If you build software or lead people who do,
then you're in the right place.
This is Hard Calls, real decisions,real leaders, real outcomes.
Hi everyone, I am TrishaPrice, and welcome back to
another episode of Hard Calls.
The podcast where we bring on thebest product leaders from across the
globe to talk about those moments, thedecisions that matter, the Hard Calls.
(00:52):
On today's show, I am thrilled to welcomeJodi McDermott, a three-time Chief Product
Officer who is now serving as a boardmember, as well as advising and coaching
c-suite on how, how to help drive businessoutcomes and build great products.
She is greatly respected becauseof her track record of delivering
exceptional returns and her passionfor building authentic relationships
(01:15):
that foster business outcomes.
Welcome to Hard Calls, Jodi.
Jodi McDermott (01:19):
Thank you.
Trisha Price (01:20):
I'm so excited for you to be here and for this conversation.
Jodi and I have known eachother for a while and I'm just
so excited for her to share herexperience today with all of you.
So, Jodi, today, thisis called Hard Calls.
Our podcast is Hard Calls, andso we always like to start with
a hard call you've had to make.
(01:41):
So tell us, looking back over your career,or even just the past year, whatever,
share a hard call that you've had to make.
What made it so challengingand what did you learn from it?
Jodi McDermott (01:53):
Well, I think as a Chief Product Officer, you have a lot
of Hard Calls that you have to make.
I mean, the buck stops with you, right?
I mean, you this role, Trishaas well, we've talked about it.
And it usually comes down to people,products, and sometimes customers too,
if trying to make those Hard Calls.
So, when I was thinking aboutour conversation for today and what
(02:15):
two Hard Calls, that I could thinkof that popped to my mind over the
last several years of my career.
And I can't say that it didn'thappen, not more than once 'cause
it, they come all the time.
They usually come down to peopleand obviously, and what you're
doing around products, right?
So let's start with people.
At the end of the day, peopleare what make businesses tick.
(02:38):
And when you are a leader and youhave people on your team, especially
'cause your team gets larger.
You have people that you trust thatbring great experience and expertise.
And then you also have people who havebeen on the journey with the company for
a long time who might be cheerleadersand loyalists, and they are, they've
(02:59):
contributed so much, but maybe somethingabout the company's really changed.
And it's time for new leadership.
And so I think those hard callsevery executive faces and I can
think of a couple of hard callsparticularly that have fallen into
both of those categories with people.
If you've ever had somebody inyour organization that maybe
(03:21):
was a really high performer,but they weren't a cultural fit.
Trisha Price (03:26):
Yes.
Jodi McDermott (03:27):
And maybe they ruffled a lot of feathers and it wasn't
one time, but it was continuous.
There's been times I've had to makea really hard call to move a high
performer out because I knew it waspulling down the rest of the team.
And sometimes it's hard toeven see it's happening.
And because people are afraid to saysomething and you have to be watching
out for that to be able to protect,the totality of the team, right?
(03:51):
And other hard calls have included whenyou have somebody who's a performer
that they're a wonderful person.
They're a wonderful human being,and you know they are gonna crush
it in a different role, but the rolethey're that they're in is not what
you need for your actual team, right?
To get you where you're gonna go.
Trisha Price (04:09):
I love that, Jodi.
It's so hard.
At nCino where I worked prior to coming toPendo Pierre, our CEO, had this quadrant,
and he would call it the competentjerk was the exactly what you were just
talking about, and the lovable fool.
And he kind of had this quadrant ofexactly what you're talking about.
(04:30):
And I love the conversation about whenpeople are in the wrong role, even though
you know they're not just an amazingcultural fit, but they have value to
add, but just not in the role they're in.
I think the hardest part of that call iswhen they don't see it, when they love
the job and you're like, oh my gosh, Iknow your career's gonna explode if we can
give you access and opportunity somewhereelse, but they don't wanna take it.
(04:53):
That is probably the toughest scenario.
Jodi McDermott (04:55):
It really is.
It's hard because I love people.
I'm a people person and it's hardwhen you have to sit down and have a
really hard conversation with somebody.
Because you just want them, you knowthey're gonna be better on the other
side, at the end of the day, if you can bekind, and clear on what needs to happen.
But another hard call that I wantedto share with you is that there
(05:15):
was a product hard call that Ithink took me a while to make.
And I had, it was, we had acquireda company that had a product that
they were building for one customer.
So it was a, a product that they hadcontracted to build this product.
And everybody felt like they were close tothe finish line, close to the finish line.
(05:39):
And every quarter that would go by.
We just needed one more quarter.
One more quarter.
And I had a few executiveson, my peers that were going,
what are we doing over here?
Why are we spending money on this?
But, when you especially whenyou acquire a company, you
have a new customer coming in.
You're trying to be apromise keeper, right?
Like product, you're trying to be promisekeeper as much as you possibly can.
(06:03):
And that was one that was a really hardcall that we finally made the decision
that we were gonna go negotiate to getout of this agreement, and that we had
to say, no, we had to stop because wedidn't see profitability down the line.
At one point we did, and then itjust kept dwindling and dwindling.
And especially when you are working inprivate equity and you have a timeline
(06:24):
for how you're spending those R&D dollars.
You just can't be deploying it whereyou're not gonna get the return.
And that was a really, really hard call.
And I would say that was probably onethat I was, it was definitely influenced
on, it was there, it was discussionwith my CEO, and my CFO, and others and
how we were gonna manage the customer.
(06:44):
But that was a hard one.
As a product officer of having to goand tell a customer, "No, we can't keep
going and we can't keep doing this."
Trisha Price (06:51):
That I'm so glad you shared that because sunsetting
products or disappointing a particularcustomer is probably one of the
hardest things we do as CPOs.
You and I both know, evenif you finished the product.
Products are never finished, right?
Jodi McDermott (07:10):
No.
Trisha Price (07:10):
And so it's like even if you met the needs of that particular
customer and got live there would'vebeen asks for forever for that.
And making that difficult decisionnot to do a one-off for a customer,
but to try to invest thoseR&D dollars where you can get.
A multiple where everybody's using it isobviously always the right choice, but
(07:32):
that doesn't mean it's the easy choice.
Jodi McDermott (07:34):
Well, it comes down to what's good revenue, right?
Somebody put on the table at that time,"Well, what if we keep building it and
we just have a dedicated developmentteam that does the work and we just
carve it off and set it over here?"Okay, but it's never gonna grow to be a
10 million, $20 million product, right?
So you're never gonna get thatenterprise value multiple off of it.
(07:56):
It's this one thing over here.
So, is it good revenue?
It's not good revenue.
Yeah.
So, those are the hard ones when,and then you have people on the other
line that you have friendships withand, or at least relationships with.
Trisha Price (08:11):
Yeah.
Trust.
Jodi McDermott (08:11):
And having to go and have that conversation's really tough.
Trisha Price (08:16):
It's so hard.
And you mentioned, the fact that itwas private AI equity-backed, and
when you're in PE that pressure, thatpressure to get a return from your R&D.
And how do you, when you're a CPO orin the C-suite at a private equity
company where there is tremendouspressure to deliver value, how do you
(08:40):
balance that rapid value creation thatneed for good revenue quickly with the
need for long-term product innovation?
Jodi McDermott (08:50):
I think a lot of it has to do with getting
telemetry around your R&D spend.
Yeah.
Where are you spending the dollars?
Right?
When I usually walk in the doorat any company, the first thing I
wanna know is where are the people?
Where are the dollarsassociated with those people?
How are they deployed againstthe product architecture?
What's the ARR?
(09:10):
What are the bookings?
What were the bookings last year?
What are the bookings this year?
Or what's the potential for the bookings?
And what is that percentage allocationagainst, those baseline numbers, and are
we deploying it in a way that's optimized?
Are we spending everything tryingto get outta tech debt or are we
just grow, grow, grow, and we'remounting tech debt on the other side?
(09:32):
The goal is to have a good,healthy balance in there.
And getting it carved out where you havethose growth dollars carved out at a
really healthy percentage and then stackrank or organizing it in a myopic way
of, okay, what are we gonna invest in?
Right?
Where's that cut line?
We can't do everything.
Yep.
What?
(09:52):
What are all the opportunitiesthat we can go after?
And then it's a lot offinancial discipline.
Yeah, so I encourage CPOs bring your FP&Ateam in and get them really close to you.
Right?
I always wanted.
My FP&A analyst, who is my, who ismine, I know who is my FP&A analyst.
Trisha Price (10:13):
Jodi, I was at the Pendo headquarters last week in Raleigh, and
I saw the FP&A analyst who I workedso tightly with my first couple of
years at Pendo and I was like, Matthew!
Matthew!
And we built so many spreadsheetstogether when I first came into
Pendo, just specifically for meand how I needed to look at things.
(10:35):
And I am so with you.
Those numbers matter so much.
Jodi McDermott (10:39):
Mine with Allister, you're out there.
Allister, he, Allister was amazing andjust, was a strategic thought partner of,
okay, well, if we deploy R&D resourcesin this region, what's the cost?
Well, wait.
With the talent over here in thisregion, so how much is it gonna cost?
And how quickly could we build somethingversus can we do a slow roll on it?
Do we swarm on it?
(10:59):
And all the differentscenarios around that.
Which goes back to how quickly dowe have to go to market, right?
How quickly do we need to launchsomething in private equity you
don't have years to build a productto eventually get it out there.
You have maybe a quarter or two, to putyou put a stake in the ground and then
you've gotta iterate it off of it quicklyand start building that snowball of ARR.
Trisha Price (11:22):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (11:23):
Yeah.
Trisha Price (11:23):
And so, when you're doing that and you're pulling together numbers,
do you have standard percentages thatare in your head that like if they're
not spending on sort of tech debtand modernization, it's a red flag?
Or if they're not spending ingrowth, that it's a red flag?
Or is it more nuanced than that?
Jodi McDermott (11:43):
I think it depends on the stage of the company.
I mean, what 20-year-old SaaS companydoesn't have a mound of tech debt, right?
It's kind of rare these days.
Trisha Price (11:53):
Maybe 10 years, right?
Jodi McDermott (11:54):
Even 10 years.
Yeah.
I think, startups nowadays, they'regoing out there and they don't have
that tech debt, and so a lot of timesthey're getting products out to market
really, really quickly, but then theyhit a scalability issue and they have to
re-architect their foundation, et cetera.
You're gonna hit at some point that you'regonna hit some level of a distribution.
I always like to start with adistribution of what I call,
(12:18):
maintain, sustain, and grow.
30%, 30%, 40%. Now, that isnot true for all products.
It is not true for all companies.
I mean, it's just a startingpoint to say, okay, where are you?
And then of course there's always a big,huge debate over well, what goes into
retention, what goes into maintenance.
I have never joined any companywhere there has not been a religious
(12:41):
discussion around that topic.
But I think that's a good starting point.
And then knowing, here's the main thing.
If you walk into a company andit's 50% retention work in 50%
maintenance, and you're not doinganything to grow the business, well,
you got a red flag right there.
Right, right.
So there's no perfect number.
It's more so of, where areyou against the baseline of,
(13:03):
are you high or low or medium?
And where do you think you needto be to actually hit the numbers
of what's in your financial plan.
And what can you do creatively tochallenge your engineering team for what
they need to be doing on the technicalside or challenging your product managers?
Hey, what I like to say, don't be inthe hamster wheel of just doing like
(13:23):
feature, feature, feature, feature.
What are we doing to really growand build muscle in the business?
Trisha Price (13:28):
So you mentioned earlier that when you are trying to do new
features or new products that haveintentional growth or ARR goals,
you don't have years, you don'thave two and three years to do that.
In this atmosphere, you have a quarter ora couple of months, maybe two quarters.
How do you manage that?
How do you manage getting a qualityproduct out there for people and driving
(13:53):
those business outcomes at the same time?
Jodi McDermott (13:55):
I think it depends what it is, right?
It's it you always have yourbuild by partner scenario.
Yep.
And so if you've got a core baseline ofa product and you can iterate quickly to
get a new module built onto it, or you canstratify from, a bronze, silver, gold into
a platinum version of that product andhit a new segment or TAM of the market.
(14:19):
Those are opportunities.
I think that's all of the work thatyou're constantly doing of, okay, how
long will it take for us to stretch inthis press, part of our ICP to expand
out if we do these X, Y, Z things, right?
Who can we go buy that's already builta company that we can integrate in that
would be a good partner for us, right?
(14:39):
Yeah.
And it always takes two to tango.
They may not wanna selleven though you wanna buy.
Right?
And then there's alwaysa partner route too.
Partner routes can havepros and cons of partnering.
Because you can get stuck with a partnerwhere you don't have enough control
over what you wanna do et cetera.
And so I think it's, it's getting yourproduct team to always be thinking about
(15:00):
what can we do to be building off of thebase that we already have, and then what
are those opportunities usually in an M&Astandpoint, especially in private equity
because of the timeline to go build andintegrate and pull something new in that
we can cross sell into our customers.
Trisha Price (15:18):
That makes a lot of sense.
So when you think about the processes ofbuilding products, maintaining products
in private equity, and honestly inthese days, for all of us, operational
efficiency is just critical, right?
Margin profitability is so important.
(15:39):
Are there particular processes orstructures that you have been able
to change or unlock that have reallyhelped you see significant gains?
Jodi McDermott (15:50):
Oh, Trisha, you're gonna love my answer.
Trisha Price (15:53):
Oh, boy!
Jodi McDermott (15:53):
You know what I'm gonna say, don't you?
Trisha Price (15:55):
I hope so.
Jodi McDermott (15:55):
Product operations is near and dear to my heart.
Trisha Price (16:01):
Product operations.
I love it.
And we did not plan to talkabout product operations.
Jodi McDermott (16:04):
I know, but like, isn't that what Pendo is
famous for is essentially, is it?
You sit right in that core function.
Yeah.
I'm a huge fan of product operations.
I think it's a really criticalfunction in a product organization.
It literally can give leverage to a CPO ifthey know how to really use that function.
(16:24):
It can, it's just an extension ofthem getting everything done from an
executive, an administrative standpointthat you need to get done to support
a strategic operating cadence.
And so, I'm a big believer thatif you can build out a strong
operating model and there's lots ofoperating models out there, pick one.
(16:44):
It like, there's noperfect operating model.
I think we all have had exposure tooperating models and we make it our own,
but whether it's that cadence of makingsure that your team is, touching certain
aspects of their product developmentlifecycle on a regular cadence and showing
their work, whether it's bringing in theright tooling and nowadays a lot of the AI
(17:08):
tooling that's coming into place, right?
So, it's implementing things like Pendoand actually using the data and getting
the telemetry to optimize what users aredoing and how they're using the product.
So, I think product operations is areally great place to start of just
getting standards in place across theboard for, for product managers that
(17:29):
let them do their job and give themthe freedom to really explore and
spend time with customers and users.
Trisha Price (17:36):
I love that.
Yeah, I totally agree with you, Jodi.
In terms of product operations, for me,what I love about it is it can help us
always baseline our product conversationsin a business outcome, right?
What were we trying to achievelast quarter or last month?
What are we trying to achieve and why?
(17:57):
And are we, and it's okay when we're not.
Let's not just keep doing the same thing.
If we're not, but being able to havethat measurement of what the outcome is.
And sometimes it's usage, like you talkedabout Pendo, sometimes it's ARR, right?
Sometimes it's support tickets we'retrying to reduce in a particular
(18:17):
product, kind of to your point,depending on the product's maturity.
But I love how product operations canreally help us look at each product,
look at each initiative, where we arein the product development life cycle,
and help bring that rigor of measurementto the table for our conversations.
Jodi McDermott (18:34):
Yeah, and it opens up at the end of the day too, if
you have that operating model inplace, you start to find where you're
spending dollars that you shouldn't.
Or where it's time to stop investing ina product and let it ride for a little
while and get it ready to be sunset.
A good product operations leaderis watching that entire cycle,
and really helping to optimize it.
Trisha Price (18:59):
I love that.
So true.
So switching gears a little bit andcoming back to your other, your first
hard call, which was around people.
I know that as a leader, youare a great product leader.
You know how to do things likemake decisions based on data and
investment data and product operations,but you also know the how to hire
(19:20):
and put together a great team.
And I know you emphasizeservant leadership.
And trust-based vulnerability.
How do you create that kind ofspecial culture where the right
people want to come work onyour team, but at the same time.
There, the pressure to deliverresults doesn't go away.
(19:40):
Right?
Like, just because we have a greatculture, just because we, are
a people-first and care aboutpeople, doesn't mean that we
don't have pressure and results.
So tell me how you balance those.
Jodi McDermott (19:52):
Oh, you know the last team, my last team.
I think we did a really greatjob of of building that.
You do have to make sure that youget your team together, you get them
offsite, you spend time doing thingsoutside of the office, if you will,
and you get them knowing each other.
And one of, I think the best exampleswas my last CTO partner, he and I were
(20:18):
really great partners of bringing ourproduct leadership team together and
engineering leadership team together.
Trisha Price (20:24):
Love that!
Jodi McDermott (20:25):
They needed to really build that vulnerability-based trust.
And we had multiple cultures involved.
So we had Americans, we had Canadians,we had British, and we had Indian.
Right?
So, everybody thinks differently.
They express themselves differently.
Some of some are more direct, some area little bit more subtle in the way that
(20:46):
they talk about what's important to them.
And so we would do a weekly callthat we held every single week,
and we took turns of who was gonnafacilitate and who was gonna scribe.
And everybody took a turn.
So every single person on that wholecall would take a turn from, we had
directors all the way up to, myselfand the CTO, and we all took turns at
(21:10):
facilitating and scribing, and we wouldalways start off with an icebreaker.
Right?
And that was the starting point.
Right?
Of just getting to and the most amazingcultural things would come out of
that because, a pop culture type ofquestion might get asked and people
in another culture would go, we haveno idea what you're talking about.
Or they would say the same thingand we would be like, I don't
(21:31):
know how to answer the question.
And we'd laugh and we'd start to learnabout, what we were thinking about.
And it led also into, it was a nice wayto grease into, okay, now we're gonna
talk about the real hard things thatwe're doing of people, processes, tools,
and it started to really build trust.
(21:51):
When people feel like you can connect ona level that you're talking about your
kids, you're talking about what you didthis weekend, now you don't have to open
up what they call the Johari window sobig that you were like pouring your soul
out, but certainly sharing a few thingsabout yourself that people don't know
about you, so that you become more human.
(22:13):
And when you become more human, itis a lot easier to talk about the
hard stuff we have to get done.
And it's easier also to get peoplemotivated that, yeah, we got some
hard work to do, but you are gonnafeel really good when we get it done
and we're all gonna do it togetherand we're gonna be in it together.
So I think it's that combination ofbringing people together, modeling that
(22:35):
behavior, and encouraging people to openup and talk about what's on their minds.
There were many times that we'd be, we'dbe in our 9-Box Zoom call, et cetera,
and especially through COVID, my gosh,16-Box Zoom call and really going out of
our way to be, "hold on, Trisha, I thinkyou had you, I can see it on your face.
What are you thinking?
(22:56):
Tell us what you're thinking.
Like I wanna hear your voice andencouraging people to speak up." And
you may not always agree with what theysay, but you wanna get that dialogue
out there and you wanna get peoplechallenging and talking to each other.
And for the people that don't talkon those calls, there's a lot of
coaching going on behind the scenes.
Yeah.
Hey, you need to speak up.
(23:16):
Like, when you're in a leadershiprole, your voice is critical
that it's at the table.
Yeah.
You gotta participate.
Trisha Price (23:23):
Gotta participate.
And one of the things I reallytry to encourage in those types of
conversations too is critiquing youridea or critiquing the strategy for
your product is not critiquing you.
Jodi McDermott (23:39):
And, that's hard, right?
Because it becomes your baby.
Trisha Price (23:43):
I know.
And it's also, there's anart to doing that, right?
There's an art to makingsure you aren't critique.
You have to look at yourself in themirror too and say, did I critique
them or did I critique the product?
And then the listener has to feel.
Well, am I treating it like it'smy baby or am I treating it like
(24:03):
I need to do the right thing todeliver the business outcome?
And I feel like those conversationsare so critical to get right for
culture, and you can't just letsomeone's bad idea go because.
You don't wanna be mean.
But at the same time, you don'tneed to annihilate people.
Right.
And that's just so hard because sometimesI've heard, especially earlier in my
(24:27):
career, I've heard people say thingslike, don't criticize in public.
Right?
Only praise in public.
But when you're in product and you'rein a group session where you're
trying to get product strategy andtrying to get the right decisions.
You can't not criticize the idea, youcan't not criticize the product, but
you don't have to criticize the people.
And that's just, I don't know, it's alwaysbeen a hard thing for me to get right.
Jodi McDermott (24:49):
You know what?
I always encourage peopleto do ask questions.
I've been in scenarios.
I remember sitting in a big, it was ourexecutive leadership team and our senior
leadership team there, a couple other morejunior folks that had joined the meeting.
And, at the time, the CEO had saidsomething that somebody told me
later, like, that was incorrect.
He, didn't have all the information.
I'm like.
(25:09):
Ask a question.
Trisha Price (25:11):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (25:11):
Just ask a question.
He would've wanted you toask that question, right?
Yeah.
Or, when people ping me what they justsaid was wrong, ask a question and you
can say it in a way that's illuminating.
Illuminating, and not.
Like you don't wanna, you wanna becareful not to put the person on the
back foot if they didn't realize thatthey didn't have all the information.
Trisha Price (25:30):
Right.
Jodi McDermott (25:31):
Oh, well, hey Trisha, did you know that we just
got more feedback from a customer?
Has that gotten to you yetabout that feature and why it's
not meeting the business need?
Oh no, I haven't gotten that.
Can somebody send that over my way?
I'd love to see it.
Right?
So I try to encourage people, askquestions, and that a lot of times,
even when you are coaching peopleon how to criticize their own
product by asking them questions.
(25:53):
They're asking themselves the questionsand they've gotta get to that moment
of honesty and of what's actuallyhappening and data's a beautiful thing.
Trisha Price (26:03):
I love that.
That's a beautiful thing that, well, Ithink asking questions can be so powerful.
Other than that.
What are other tips or tricks orpieces of advice that you give to
your product managers who are aspiringto be product leaders or product
leaders that are aspiring to be a CPO?
(26:24):
Like, how are you helping them?
What advice are you giving thisnext generation of leaders?
Jodi McDermott (26:30):
Be curious.
That's always, I mean, with everythingthat's changing right now with, I
mean, you and I both lived throughthe SaaS and mobile eras if you
will, it's the AI era now, right?
And so you be open and be curious andbe studying and be trying new things.
(26:51):
To anyone who wants to be A CPO,learn the financials of the business.
Trisha Price (26:59):
I love that.
Jodi McDermott (27:00):
Really understand what are the levers that are gonna drive
enterprise value in the business.
It's gonna be top-line growth,bookings growth, and annual
recurring revenue in a SaaS business.
It's gonna be that gross retention rateof keeping those customers renewing
and and staying on the product, right?
And it's gonna be at the same time havinga really clean shop of operations, and
(27:23):
especially also on the technical sidethat you're not building up a whole
bunch of technical debt, but like learnyour product craft as you're going.
But do not shy away at all of what yourinvestors, whether you are a privately
held company, founder-led, or publiccompany, how do you make decisions
that impact the value of the company?
(27:45):
At the end of the day, your jobis to build enterprise value
as a CPO, and there's a lot ofdifferent ways and levers to do it.
That starts with a productmanager learning their product.
Right.
My favorite question to ask productmanagers, especially in group settings,
is how many of you know the bookingsnumber for your product this year?
Trisha Price (28:05):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (28:06):
Not all of them do.
Right?
Yeah.
And they, if, if they're gonna run amini business, they gotta know like,
what is the sales team trying to achieve?
What is the average sale value ofmy, of my product, and how often
are we winning and or losing?
For every at bat, are we hitting it?
Are we, not hitting it?
(28:27):
And what do I need to do as a productmanager to optimize this product that's
going out the door so that customersnot only buy it, but they renew it.
So I think the, the financial acumenis a huge piece that I just can't
emphasize enough, is probably oneof the areas that I see is a, a
growth area for so many, productmanagers and even aspiring executives.
(28:50):
So there's the technology side,there's the creativity side
of building great products.
But if you really wanna cascade upinto the next level of your career,
you, you've gotta make sure thatfinancial basis is there as well.
Trisha Price (29:03):
I totally agree Jodi, and I said this so many times, like to me that's
the biggest difference when, especiallywhen you're jumping from like Director to
VP or VP up, you gotta know this business.
You've gotta understand the businessmetrics where, where they could
be optimized, where little tweaksin your product strategy can, can
(29:25):
help jump forward ARR or margin,wherever you are in the cycle.
And I think understanding the businessmetrics is so critically important.
Jodi McDermott (29:35):
And it doesn't discount, right?
You still need to know what's happeningwith the competition Of course.
And what are they releasing and howare they positioning their product?
It is multidimensional.
I'm just saying there's one side of it offocusing on like, do you, the telemetry
around your product is not just howmany people clicked on something or used
it today, monthly, daily active users.
(29:55):
Yep.
It goes so much deeper than that.
And yes, as a product manager, wecould take that and slice it right
down into the narrowness of a productmanager, get closer and closer and
closer to your user and customer.
I can't emphasize that enough, right?
There's a lot of product managersand CPOs that don't spend enough
time with customers out in the field.
(30:16):
How are they using it?
What does my productlook like in the wild?
And really understanding that, so that,that's probably the more practical side
of it that you, that you'd add to it.
Trisha Price (30:26):
Even like, what's your strategy, right?
When I think about executives talkingto other customer, like to the
customer executive, then it's likenot just how are you using my product?
What do you like about it?
Is it delivering value for you?
But where are you taking yourbusiness over the next three years?
Jodi McDermott (30:44):
How can we be a partner for you?
Trisha Price (30:47):
Yeah, that means it's a game changer for how you think about your
product strategy and investments whenyou know your most strategic customers
and what their three year and five yearplan are, so that you can really start
to align not just the here and now andwhat they like about your product, but
you know where you're going togetherover the next three to five years.
Jodi McDermott (31:05):
Yeah.
The dynamics change a lot.
I think, back in the days of just,writing stories in Jira and building
a product backlog, et cetera.
As your career progresses, there's a lotof other dimensions that have to come
into it and skill sets to really roundout being a fulsome product leader.
Trisha Price (31:23):
So as you're, engaging with different product companies
and different product leaders today,how are you thinking about AI?
Right.
There's, for all of us building product,it's incorporating AI, whether it's
agentic experiences, conversationalinterfaces, AI summaries into our
(31:44):
product or using, you had mentionedthis a little bit earlier, AI tools
to give us more efficiency, howare you advising the people you're
working with today in terms of AI?
Jodi McDermott (31:58):
Well, I think you need to look at AI and how it's gonna
disrupt every aspect of business.
And that's a very broad statementto start off with, right?
Yeah.
But I'm sure at Pendo you're lookingat, how do we not only optimize our
operations, customer success, supportsales, what tool sets can we use
to, build better pipeline, right?
(32:21):
Or increase our win rate?
And those are all internal operations.
But it's also how do you incorporatethat into your product so that your end
user is getting that same, same leverage.
So I think there, there's an internalview to it of what are all the tool
sets that could apply to how, whereI spend time in my job and what I do.
(32:41):
Right?
So you're a product manager,writing user stories or PRDs, are
you doing competitive intelligence?
The tools can save you a ton of time.
Now they're not, they're not alwaysa replacement for a human, but they
certainly can give you a lot of leverage.
So that you can, and insteadof doing 500 Google searches,
you can have a starting point.
(33:03):
That's a lot has a lotmore thickness to it.
So I, I think any, any product personout there should just be looking
at every single aspect of how theyspend their day and all the tasks
that they do, and what are ways thatthey can be applying AI to go faster.
I think it's also important of, where isyour company adopting it and what are the
(33:24):
privacy rules ,and what's the governancethat you've put into place to make sure
that you don't have IP going out thedoor, especially with your product folks
and the searches they might be doing.
So I think that's important fora leader to be thinking about
putting it into the product.
You're thinking about it just onthe other side of that table, right?
And I think for product people,it's probably kind of easier
(33:45):
to think about it that way.
You just have to go to the other sideof the table and just look back and
say, okay, if I was using this justas if I was using any of these other
products I use in my day-to-day, whatwould I, where would I inject AI in?
What would I do?
Where does it make sense andwhere does it not make sense?
Trisha Price (34:00):
Yeah.
Jodi McDermott (34:01):
It's a powerful tool.
Trisha Price (34:03):
It is so powerful.
And you're right.
I mean, we at Pendo are rethinkingevery one of our processes
and where can we use ai?
And we've had.
Some huge wins and we've hadsome places where we've learned
maybe it didn't work as well.
And that's on the internal andthe external side of things.
And I think right now for all of us,we've gotta keep experimenting and
(34:25):
keep trying and learn new things andfigure out what works and doesn't work.
But I do think everything is sortof on the brink of change right now.
Jodi McDermott (34:33):
You know what I think is really interesting though
in this timeframe is that I think.
I think our kids are in similarage ranges, if I remember.
Trisha Price (34:43):
Yes.
Jodi McDermott (34:43):
But our kids grew up with no AI.
No AI.
No AI.
It's cheating.
It's cheating.
It's cheating.
And it was hammered into their heads.
Yeah.
And so now, of course I'm trying to get mykids to think about AI and they're like.
Stop.
They're like, no, it's bad.
It's like, no, it's not bad.
Right?
Trisha Price (34:59):
And it's not bad.
Jodi McDermott (35:00):
It's not bad.
And I think there's a lot of employersout there who have to almost give
permission to that generation where AI wasintroduced and they were quick adopters
of taking a look at it and using it.
And then they were quickly,harnessed, wait, hold on.
You can't do your test andhomework on that, right?
(35:21):
And so I see schools starting to embraceit a lot more and try to work it into
the curriculum and get that permissiongoing with the younger generation.
I say younger generation, mygosh, like, multiple, who knows
how that is even defined, but.
I'm part of the youngergeneration, aren't we?
Both?
Trisha Price (35:38):
Of course.
We're part of it.
Jodi McDermott (35:39):
We're still young.
We're still young, but I think therethat there is a group of folks out there
who, weren't given that permission.
And in that the world is changing soquickly that I think it's upon leadership
team members to also really encouragetheir team to like, use it, try it.
I want you using it.
This is how it's gonna help you.
(36:00):
It's gonna, it's not gonna replace you.
It's gonna augment youto be, supercharged.
To do so much more work in a value.
Your brain becomes the valueadd on top of what AI does.
Trisha Price (36:10):
So true.
My kids, Jodi, makefun of me all the time.
I'll be doing something.
They're like, did you just AI that?
Whether it's like planning a tripor getting ready for a list of
questions at a doctor's appointment.
They're like, did you just dida, did you just ChatGPT that mom?
And I'm like, why is that?
Jodi McDermott (36:26):
Yes, I did.
Trisha Price (36:28):
Guys, you should be congratulating me.
And then this weekend we had afascinating conversation about.
AI being people and certain like arepeople going to have philosophical
issues with it, and are theygonna have biases against AI?
(36:50):
And do we need to rethink justlike many years ago, how we had
biases against certain groups ofpeople and rethink that with AI.
And it was like a crazy,fascinating discussion in our house
with as a family this weekend.
It was pretty fun.
I know.
Yeah.
Wild.
It's wild.
Jodi McDermott (37:08):
It's an intellectually stimulating conversation to have.
Trisha Price (37:11):
It is.
It's, but it is definitelygoing to change our world.
Well, Jodi, as we close out today, I dowanna come back to Hard Calls and just
ask you one more question as we finish up.
You said this in the beginning, andI totally agree, and it's actually
why I created this podcast, iswhat makes product hard is that
everyone has an opinion, right?
(37:32):
Sales thinks they knowwhat's best for the product.
Yeah, support team, like ifyou just fix this one thing,
it would make my life better.
Customers have opinions for products.
They want you to build our board, turneverything upside down and go AI first.
But at the end of the day, we'rethe ones accountable and we're the
(37:53):
ones who have to make that call.
So how do you think aboutdata versus gut instincts?
And like what you really leanon in terms of what's critical
to get the hard calls, right?
Jodi McDermott (38:08):
It's gotta be both, right?
I think that, you have to have telemetryaround the decisions that you're making.
As a product leader.
Now that's sometimes really hard.
You might walk into abusiness and there's no data.
I've had that where there's limitedamount of data, and so you're going
more off gut instinct than you're goingoff of data-driven, but you might pull
(38:33):
that information from a cross-functionalgroup of people to understand, well,
tell me what's going on in the business.
And you do have to make a discerningcall based off of what is a little
bit more I'd say EQ versus IQof, of what might be coming in.
But it's also your job to get thattelemetry going so that you can at
(38:54):
least reduce the margins in some ofthose calls, 'cause sometimes you
have to make a call and you, you don'thave all the data, you just have to
pick a point and start moving forward.
And I, I think the, the one thingto be careful of is, somebody shared
the concept with me of a one-waydoor or a two-way door, right?
(39:15):
Yep.
So is it a door that you can walkback through or is it a one-way
door that you can never turnaround and undo what you've done?
Yeah.
And so I think that's another dimensionyou can layer on top of that is as you
start to make hard calls and decisions.
Yep.
Yet there are often ones thatyou have to make a really hard
call and it's a one way door.
And the question is, is how high arethe stakes when you make that decision?
Trisha Price (39:39):
So true.
And the higher the stakes,the more data you want.
Right?
Jodi McDermott (39:45):
But you can't have analysis paralysis either.
Yeah, right?
And so I think a, a good productleader has, has that gut instinct
to, sleep on it, see how you reallyfeel about it, and you sometimes.
You just have to make the hardcall without all of the information
because you know the businesshas to keep moving forward.
(40:06):
Yeah.
Jodi, at Pendo we say no
Trisha Price (40:09):
decision is still a decision.
So you made a decision.
You just made no decision.
That might be the worst call, you know?
Jodi McDermott (40:17):
That's true.
That's very true.
Trisha Price (40:19):
Yeah.
Well, Jodi, thank you so much forbeing on Hard Calls for this episode.
I know our listeners have learnedso much from this conversation.
I have too.
Always a joy to spend some time with you.
Jodi McDermott (40:30):
Likewise.
Trisha Price (40:31):
Thank you so much.
Jodi McDermott (40:32):
Thank you.
Trisha Price (40:33):
Thank you for listening to Hard Calls, the product podcast,
where we share best practices andall the things you need to succeed.
If you enjoyed the show today, sharewith your friends and come back for more.
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