September 8, 2021 • 34 mins
Mental health is making headlines - including in the architecture and design industry as the cumulative effects of living and working through a second year of the global Covid-19 pandemic start to become known.
So how can organisations, the industry, and individuals, take advantage of this moment to establish change and in doing so, protect the longevity and diversity of the design industry into the future? In this special episode of Hassell Talks to recognise RUOK Day and World Mental Health Day we invited Parlour co-founder, Researcher and Professor of Architecture at Monash University Naomi Stead to share some of the early observations coming out of a survey of 2300 industry professionals into wellbeing in architecture.
Joining Naomi is landscape architect, Place Intelligence co-founder and Human Potential Coach Bonnie Shaw, who explains how her own extreme experience with stress and pursuit of mental wellbeing marries data, endocrinology, neuroscience and behavioural psychology to support change, and community resilience. Together with Managing Director Steve Coster they explore opportunities to promote an open help-seeking culture, foster wellbeing and create real, positive change around mental health for the benefit of individuals, organisations, clients – and ultimately the communities and end users of design.
"Designers are motivated by a desire to make the world a better place, and so they keep designing until they get to the best possible outcome beyond the point where they're really pushing their own personal well-being." - Naomi Stead
"When you're working in really big, challenging adaptive problems, it puts so much pressure on people. And being able to do that work in a context where it's okay to talk about how you might be struggling or when you might be having problems, I think, is the only way we get through it." - Bonnie Shaw
- Hassell is a proud partner of mental health advocacy organisation, PukaUp. Find out more about the work PukaUp is doing to eliminate suicide.
The British Architects Mental Wellbeing Forum Toolkit The Australian Architects Mental Wellbeing Forum Toolkit Literature review on Architects and Mental Health commissioned by the NSWARB Monash University's Wellbeing in Architecture survey Bonnie Shaw: 'Making good decisions' - Dumbo Feather Founder of Stress Theory, Hans Selye
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(gentle music)
- Hi, I'm Steve Coster,
and welcome to the"Hassell Talks" podcast.
We're really thrilled this episode
to have Naomi Stead from Monash University
and Bonnie Shaw from Place Intelligence
to talk about mental health
and wellbeing in the design profession.
(00:21):
It's really good that we'rehaving way more honest
and regular conversationsabout this in the workplace
than probably used to happen historically.
And I suppose that's a silver lining
of probably the pandemic and COVID
and the very significantmental health impacts
of that, which we cantalk about in a moment.
(00:44):
But these challenges were challenges
before the pandemic as well,
and, you know, it's beencoming for a long time
and people have been warning us
that there's serious sort of mental health
and wellbeing issues thatwe need to understand better
and address, and it's particularly
so I think in architecture and design.
(01:05):
Naomi, it's great to have you here.
You're an academic at Monash University.
Can you talk a littlebit about your role there
and the research that you've been doing?
- Yes, so I'm professor of architecture
at Monash University.
I've been an academic in architecture
for some 20 years so have had a long time
to observe these kindsof wellbeing issues,
particularly in students,also in fellow academics
(01:28):
and also in the importantsubgroup of PhD students
who we find are actuallya pretty stressed group.
I'm leading a major research project,
an Australian ResearchCouncil linkage project,
which is about the work-relatedwellbeing of architects
and architecture students.
And it's a big project.
It's national in scope.
As I mentioned, it covers both education
(01:49):
and practise cultures
because we would say they're inextricably
and importantly linked.
And I guess the purpose ofthe project is really to try
and move on the conversationaround work-related wellbeing
and work cultures and professionalidentity in architecture
because it's so widespread,
the perception that there aremajor, well, let's say issues
(02:11):
with work-relatedwellbeing in architecture.
Many people believe that's the case.
There's been a lot of discussion,
professional media and commentary,
but there hasn't beena lot of reliable data,
empirical reliable primarydata to really tell us
what's actually going on,
let alone what we could do about it.
So that's what ourproject endeavours to do.
And we've just completed anindustry survey of practitioners
(02:35):
who broadly understood,
not just registeredarchitects in Australia,
which was completed by 2,300 people.
So that's a lot for along survey like this.
Really good uptake.
And I think what thattells us is not only it
will be an important dataset,
but also this issue reallyis being taken very seriously
by a large number ofpeople in the profession.
- Yeah, hear, hear, totally agree.
(02:57):
For me, when people ask, well,why are you so interested
in mental health and wellbeing
as it relates to architectural practise,
it's because I'm dealingwith the same mental health
and wellbeing challenges thatso many people in the industry
are dealing with and I'mdealing with those myself.
Is that the same for you?
Have you personally foundthe industry challenging
(03:20):
in the past and has thatled to your own interest
in this area?- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I've seen bad things can happen
as we all know, likecatastrophically bad things
for some individuals, andwe all know those stories,
and they're terrible, tragic stories
and they shouldn't happen but they do.
So I've been aware of them peripherally
throughout my career.
(03:40):
I have mental wellbeing issues of my own,
which are probably particularto academic contexts
and the kinds of overwork, burnout,
cynicism and perfectionismthat occur in academia as well.
But yes, I have lived experience.
I know what it's like to be anxious
and depressed and burnt out as well.
And I've never been a practisingarchitect, I must say.
(04:00):
I'm an academic from the very beginning.
So while I'm very familiarwith practise cultures,
I'm also something of anoutsider in that world,
which I think is an advantage.
It means that I can see itwith the eyes of an outsider.
I'm interested in thepeople in architecture.
Obviously, I'm alsointerested in the things
that architects produce.
I have a parallel life asan architectural critic.
(04:23):
I'm the architectural criticfor the Saturday paper,
but I'm also interested inthe people of architecture
and the cultures of production.
So how is it that the people and norms
and social practises and work practises
and identities of the peoplewithin the profession,
how does that enable or infact, stymie in some ways,
the kind of good work thatthey're able to produce
in the interest of the common good?
(04:44):
I had an earlier project
that I was also leadingmany years ago now,
which was about gender equity
in the architecture profession,also an ARC linkage project,
also with many industry partners.
And that led to the formation
of a research-based advocacygroup called Parlour.
And really, I think I can sayit changed the conversation
(05:06):
around gender equity inarchitecture in Australia,
and increasingly, it's
also being recognised internationally.
So I started, much as I hate to say,
I'm working my way around thesocial issues in architecture,
started off with gender equity
and then started to really see
that that was very closelyrelated to wellbeing issues.
The reason why women areleaving the profession
(05:26):
or some women leave isvery closely related
to wellbeing issues.
And obviously, many of the challenges
that women are facing in the workplace
are not gender specific.
They're are also faced by men.
So the two projects arereally closely integrated
in my mind.
I really hope that wecan change the culture
so fewer people are goingthrough those experiences.
- I might take that opportunity then
(05:46):
to also introduce Bonnie Shaw.
Bonnie is with us.
She's the co-founderof Place Intelligence,
but she's also recently trained herself
or been through a process of training
as a Human PotentialCoach to understand how
to affect your own responses to stress
(06:09):
and situations to be healthier.
Bonnie, welcome to the podcast.
Tell us a little bit about your background
and how you got into that.
- So I'm a trained landscapearchitect and urban designer,
but pretty early in my career,
I built a game with a bunchof friends and colleagues
that was played online and incities all around the world.
(06:31):
It was the early 2000s.
It was well before theiPhone and Instagram,
and it really touched a chordand it led to a placement
as a guest researcher at theSenseable Cities Lab at MIT
and worked in technology engagement,
product design anddevelopment in the tech world
for about 15 years.
And then supporting organisations
(06:51):
that were going throughrapid disruption and change.
And I thought I was reallygood at dealing with change.
I thought I was reallyflexible and adaptive
and knew all the tricks and how to manage
that stuff really well.
Up until a few years agowhen I got really unwell,
I ended up in hospital with what I thought
was a heart attack and spentabout eight hours hooked up
(07:16):
to a cardiogram and gettinga whole bunch of tests
on my heart to see what was going on.
And after sitting in the dark for hours,
kind of freaking outabout what was going on
and worrying about my family
and what was going tobecome of everything,
a doctor came in and toldme that it wasn't my heart.
It was stress.(monitor flat lining)
(07:38):
And so I had this kindof incredible moment
of really trying to understandsort of how my perception
of myself as being really well equipped
to deal with the stressin my life had led me
to this point of quite critical failure.
And my response, youknow, I am a co-founder
(08:01):
and leader in a data analytics company,
we use massive supercomputersto process huge data sets
to deliver insights to thebuild environment profession,
architects and designers around
how people use cities over time.
I'm used to using data asleverage for better decisions.
And so I went deep on some research
(08:23):
and really wanted to get to the bottom
of kind of what stress wasdoing to my body and brain
and what had brought me to this point.
And I found this incredible body of work
that when I made a connectionbetween resilience,
which I'm familiar withthrough Resilient Cities' work
and the ability for acity to recover quickly
(08:46):
from an acute shock orrespond to long-term strain.
And I found where that workhad originally come from,
which is a Hungarian endocrinologist
that was operating in the 1930s and '40s,
Hans Selye, who is actually the person
that originally coined theword stress and stressors.
(09:08):
And that work around resilience
was actually originallyreferring to the human body
and our ability as individuals
to withstand long-term strain
and recover quickly from shock.
I started exploring a wholerange of different modalities
on how to train myselfto get better equipped
(09:29):
to deal with the realities of the career
and the lifestyle that I had chosen,
and then wanted to put some structure
around how I could then apply
and share that with other people.
There's a new skillset that people need
to equip themselves withto be able to function
in this world that we find ourselves in
(09:49):
because the challengesthat we're facing now
with the climate emergency,with the COVID pandemic,
with a whole range of issues,
we need to be in the most effective state,
physiological state that we can to be able
to make good decisions in atime of really high stress.
- Naomi, in your workand the research so far,
(10:11):
which I know is still in progress
and is so important in our industry,
you would've been thinking alot about how mental health
and wellbeing relates particularly
to architects and designers.
Are there specificattributes or characteristics
of designers that youthink make this occur
in a particular way as opposed
(10:35):
to other professions orthe broader population?
- So I think what'sinteresting about architecture
is certain work practisesthat have emerged.
So practises of overwork,I think many people believe
that is a possible contributor
to deleterious wellbeing effects,
but we can see where that comes from.
(10:56):
And it comes from a really good place
as in a well motivated place,
which is that peoplewant to keep designing
until they get to thebest possible outcome.
So what this can mean isthat they're not stopping,
they're just keeping on going,
beyond the point where it'sno longer financially viable
or beyond the point
where they're really pushingtheir own personal wellbeing.
But it's really importantnot to lose sight of the fact
(11:17):
that the motivation for that is very good
and is very often altruistic.
So I think not just architects
but designers of the build environment
of all stripes are veryoften completely devoted
to the best possible outcome
for the largest possibleaudience and for the quality,
they're ambitious for the work.
They want the work to be asgood as it can possibly be.
(11:38):
- And they're trying to makethe world a better place
and they're more interested in that
than their own personal fame and fortune.
Naomi, that's what you're--- Absolutely.
- Yeah.- I mean, some people
are interested in fame and fortune.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But when some people areinterested in fame and fortune
and the good of the world,
I think you can have aboth-and situation here,
which is important.
(11:58):
But yeah, the altruism thing,
meaning you put others before yourself,
you know, it's a great thingbut it can have effects.
- It's both a decline inproductivity and wellbeing,
but also when you're underlong-term stress and strain,
actually, there's chemical reactions,
physiological reactionsand neurological reactions
(12:19):
that happen in your body
that actually shiftsthe way both your body
and brain function and makeyou think in different ways.
They make you make decisions differently.
You're much more likelyto have a fixed mindset.
You've got decreased task flexibility,
(12:39):
so you're more likely to want
to repeat the things thatyou've already always done
and less likely to want to try new things.
You're less collaborative,
you're less empathetic, more aggressive.
And so there's a whole bunchof what we would probably start
to call character traitsthat start to emerge
(13:01):
when people's bodies
and brains have beenunder long-term stress
that are sort of shiftingthe way you might engage
in a workplace and mightengage with making decisions
that actually make us much less effective.
- Well, I mean, it seems tome that one of the key things
is that people leave, people simply leave.
It gets to the point wherethey can't take it anymore
(13:24):
for a variety of reasons.
And then there is a loss of talent,
and this happens throughout the pipeline,
let's say, of people's career,
throughout the careerbiography as they say.
And in my earlier work on gender equity,
it was quite clear that a lot of women
were leaving at every stage,
including just aftergraduation all the way through
to senior levels.
(13:46):
So there's a brain drainand that's a problem
because not only, as Bonnie is saying,
not only do we need people operating
at their optimal mostcreative, most effective,
most lateral level.
We also need the most diverse teams
and you know, every brainthat we possibly can,
(14:08):
who has talent in this area,
in the room to facethese coming challenges.
So I'd say that that'sthe macro level challenge.
I should say that in ourproject, our principal partner
is the New South WalesArchitects Registration Board,
and of course all thearchitects' registration boards
around the country,
their mandate is reallyabout consumer protection.
(14:29):
They regulate architects with the mandate
to protect the consumer.
So their interest inquestions of mental wellbeing
is really that possibly, hopefully not,
but possibly an architectwho was not working optimally
may in fact put lives at risk,
their own life but other lives as well.
So that's a completelydifferent angle on the question
(14:52):
that buildings can be dangerous.
They really can.
So you know, we really needhappy, creative workers to work
in the most optimal way
for everybody's safety and happiness.
- That constant exposure to threat
that you're talking about,
Bonnie, and the reaction thatthat generates in our bodies.
(15:12):
We've got a particularcircumstance at the moment
with the pandemic andthe ongoing lockdowns
where you're gettingreally extended periods
of heightened threat response.
Naomi, are you seeingor are you hearing out
in the industry talk aboutmental wellbeing issues
in the design professionsthat that is really heightened
(15:34):
at the moment?
How are people experiencing that?
Is it burnout like we used to get
or is it different at the moment?
- Mm, I think it has a different flavour.
It's also very clear
that it's having verydifferent effects according
to the individual.
Different effects ondifferent sizes of practise,
kinds of practise, locations of practise.
All the western Australiansare doing just great,
(15:54):
but feeling really guilty.
And you know, I was in ameeting the other day talking
to a young woman workingin Sydney and she said,
"I am just loving this.
"I am living my best life.
"It suits me perfectly."
But there were otherpeople in her same practise
who were just really, really struggling,
especially the leadership, Imust say, who are exhausted.
I think the leaders
(16:15):
who were really goodcommunicators came into their own
during certainly the earlystages of the pandemic,
and then they reached outagain and again and again
in every way possible andconnected with their staff
and brought them togethervirtually in a completely new way,
in a very intentional way as well.
Things that previouslywouldn't necessarily
have been thought of werethought of explicitly,
(16:37):
and you know, it had very,very positive effects,
and I think it will continueto have very positive effects,
but everyone is exhausted now.
Anecdotally, I hearthat a lot of practises
are extremely busy,
but one of the keysources of staff for them,
i.e. people coming in from overseas,
is of course no longer available.
They're really busy.
They're really tired.
They don't have theability to get extra staff.
(16:59):
They can't see the lightat the end of the tunnel.
And so right now,
I would say it was a quiteparticular challenge.
It's just that you know,there was a lot of adrenaline
in the early stages and everyone was like,
the whites of the eyes were very visible.
It's not so much like that now.
- And I think peoplehave been very reluctant
to take holidays or take breaks
(17:20):
because they haven't beenable to travel anywhere
or they haven't felt they can plan.
I remember a leadership expert,
who was actually froma military background
to originally talking aboutthe delayed effect of stress,
traumatic exposure manifesting
as much as 18 months after the event.
(17:41):
Their studies in that settingshowed it was a whole year
and a half later from some trauma
that people suddenly fell in a hole
'cause they held themselves together
but they couldn't hold themselves together
for more than 18 months.
I think we've got a bit of thatgoing on too at the moment,
which is almost exactly on 18 months
from the beginning of thepandemic in Australia anyway.
(18:07):
And are there things
that you are already seeing coming through
in your conversations around the research
that are pointing to obvious areas
where we can improverelatively simple things maybe
that might make a big difference?
Are those things startingto emerge already?
At a glance, particularly
(18:28):
at the qualitative open fieldquestions in our survey,
what becomes really clearis that people are seeing it
as a systemic structural issue
and that it's not necessarily
about the personalfailings of individuals.
I was very pleased tosee that, I must say.
It's not people saying, "Oh, it's my fault
"'cause I can't workthose kinds of hours."
They're saying, "Well,actually, this is untenable."
(18:50):
A very large proportion of people said
that they had changed jobs.
A very large proportion ofpeople had a career break.
Perhaps those things aren't surprising.
And if you're in a terriblejob, well, you should move.
You know, you really should move.
Don't stay there and suffer.
I was encouraged to see that people
are understanding thatit is the constraints
on the architecture profession as a whole
(19:11):
which are producing some ofthese downstream effects.
So if the fees that have been charged
for project are not adequate,
it means that everyone is under pressure
and has to work harder in less time,
has less control over that workflow
and the time in which it needs to be done.
More risk, more responsibility,
more pressure, more of a high-wire act.
(19:32):
One of our early intervieweessaid that being an architect
is sometimes like being the goalkeeper,
you know, pretty high pressure.
Mistakes are conspicuous.
And so structural issuesaround not only fee scales
and working conditionsand adequate resourcing
and HR management andfinancial management,
workflow management, but alsothe valuing of the profession,
(19:54):
the design profession as a whole.
I mean, if they're not valued financially
or valued in a sense ofwe value good design,
well, then we've really got a problem.
So if the profession were more valued
and I must say I get tiredof people saying that
'cause it's like a refrain, someone,
we need a new Robin Boyd
to stand up and valuearchitecture in the public domain.
(20:16):
But it's actually also true.
There are people doing that.
There really are, it'snot like there's no one,
but somehow that message isn'tquite cutting through yet.
- So my day job
is bringing quantitativedata-driven insights
to bear on design projects tosupport better decision-making
(20:38):
at the front end of designs
and the ability to runlongitudinal impact studies
on the outcomes of greatdesign in the public realm
and being able to put somequantitative parameters
around what great designdoes in a community.
(20:59):
And so for me, I guess italways comes back to being able
to have some really solidevidence around the impact
of the decisions that you're making,
whether that's aroundyour own personal health
and kind of assessing where you're at
in a moment before you take action
or don't act or in the impactthat a design is having
(21:24):
and the value that that candeliver into a community.
- Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree.
I also think though, just inthe project management space,
there's a lot we could dothat would flow through
from that through to theconditions for architectural work
and production that would help.
I think the speed of thingshas gotten greater and greater.
(21:49):
The expectation aroundthe number of options
has gotten greater and greater.
You know, the turnaround timesand the lack of understanding
of what goes in behind inorder to produce those options,
the timelines are justgetting pretty ridiculous.
I often wonder whether it's related
(22:09):
to the rise of the whole software industry
and the tech industry.
We deal with a lot of clients now,
I think, who sort ofbring these methodologies
or mythology from software design
and think it can apply tobuilding buildings, you know?
But the problem with a building
is you can't upload an upgradeto your beta test overnight
(22:31):
if your beta test doesn't work very well
because you've poured it inconcrete and built it in steel.
So there's a bit of falseattribution I think of some
of these working methods and mindset.
It takes quite a lot ofconfidence and evidence, sure,
to be able to push back and say, actually,
it's better for us to beslower through this first part
(22:52):
and spend the time properly
in order that we don'thave issues down the line.
And to make that case in the rough
and tumble of big complexprojects is extremely challenging
and very high pressure initself to make that case.
And we've got to help our people I think
as an industry have confidence to do that.
- And I think I've seen, likehaving spent a lot of time
(23:15):
in the technology sector
and working with builtenvironment professionals,
I'm seeing a flow between both industries
in terms of ideas andthinking and approaches.
And I think a lot of peopleworking in technology these days
are trying to learn and borrow approaches,
(23:40):
particularly from the designand architectural sector
and thinking very considerately
about the impacts of their work now
and really starting to takeon some of the practises
that are slower, that aremore ethically driven.
(24:01):
And while I genuinely do believe
that the work in the technology sector,
particularly around kind of how projects
are run in a slightly more agile way,
can teach many different sectors a thing
or two about how to approachadaptive challenges,
(24:22):
there are historical reasons
for why things are done in certain ways
in particular industries.
And it doesn't serve anyonewell to kind of pick up
and throw those out and just try
to run things a whole lotfaster and differently.
There's got to be a combinationof learning from both.
(24:44):
- Yeah, although, Bonnie,I'm really interested
in the times when youshould jump the tracks.
Do you know what I mean?- Yeah.
- Like, for example, oneof our research partners,
industry partners in our research project
is the Fulcrum Agency,
which is of course a small
to medium size practise based in Perth.
It started off as CODA,was very successful,
(25:06):
merged with Cox, unmerged with Cox,
so they've been through a lot.
But of course, now they callthemselves the Fulcrum Agency
and they have very deliberately said,
"We don't want to play that game anymore
"for wellbeing reasons
"and business reasons,business liability."
And I've been so impressed
by how they have strategically said,
"These parts of architecture,
(25:27):
"as it was practised, we think are broken.
"We want to set them aside.
"We're gonna call ourselves an agency.
"The word architecturewill appear nowhere.
"We will charge as we should charge,
"as we must charge inorder to do the work."
And it's just so fascinating to see
that they've said that is broken.
We are walking away from that
and we are inventing anew way of doing things.
(25:50):
It's obviously much harderfor really large practises.
- Yeah, fascinating.- For example, Hassell,
also a partner on our research project.
Thank you very much, Steve.
It's much harder.
Like, there's an inertia there.
And also as you say, when you're working
with government clients,
you can't just change theway you do things overnight.
- I think it sounds like,and it makes sense, you know,
(26:10):
there are systemic externalthings in the industry
that are definitely contributing
that we could identify andhone in on and seek to affect.
There's then things withinthe way we structure
and organise our own practise,
which equally we can identify and affect,
and I think we'll try to do that.
(26:31):
Bonnie, you know, you'retalking about skills
and capabilities as individualswithin that environment.
Can you talk a little bit more
about what some of thosepractical things are
and the things you've learned
about that help peoplemanage stressful situations
at a personal level?
- The first step is toreally cultivate an awareness
(26:53):
of what's actually going onby asking the right questions
and get some real quantifiable data to try
and understand why it's happening.
And as an individual,
use your body as a data collection tool.
Consider how fast your heart is beating,
how shallow is your breath,how animated are your gestures?
(27:13):
You know, are you sweating?
Are you feeling a bit uncomfortable?
All of those things arereally good data to try
and get a read on whereyour physiology is at.
And then take a pause.
And so once you've gotyour data, pause and assess
and kinda dig into it and analyse it
and think about what's going on.
(27:36):
And there's this amazing thing
that happens in your bodyif you're feeling stressed,
if you're going through a stress response,
and you take a deep breath down
into the bottom of your lungsand really get down there,
it actually short-circuitsthe stress response.
You can't sit in a stress state
and take a deep breath at thesame time, it's impossible.
And so once you've got that andyou've done your assessment,
(28:01):
then be intentional aboutyour action that you take
and choose how you respond.
But it's about reclaimingyour agency from your biology.
And so your biology, when you're not aware
of what's going on,there's a bunch of triggers
and things that are happeningthat are forcing you
to act in certain ways.
(28:21):
But if you can just get thosesteps and take that pause
and assess your data a bit better,
then you can act with intention.
And then the last thing,
and this is in every frameworkthat we would ever use
in our data analytics work,
is try and monitor and learnfrom the results of that.
So if you are able to then
(28:42):
as an individual consciouslygo through that process
and intentionally takeaction or choose not to act,
what happens as a result of that?
Notice the reactions thatthe people you're with have
and how they respond to youand try and learn from that.
(29:04):
- So then, what about looking forward?
At some point, hopefully, you know,
we're coming out the otherside of the acute impacts
of this pandemic, andwhilst it won't be the same
as it was before, hopefullywe'll get more bandwidth back
to think about the workwe do in the world.
It seems to us, at Hassell I mean,
(29:27):
that actually through this period,
if anything, people haveeven further realised
how important great places are,
you know, that the valueof good quality places
for people to come together,
whether it's their workplaceor their university campus
or the restaurants they go to with friends
or the public spaces in their cities.
(29:49):
From our point of view, wethink the value of good design
and good places is getting greater
as a result of this and over time.
Do you see that?
And I guess how doesthat relate to the issues
of mental health and wellbeing?
Because we need people to be well enough
(30:10):
to get after that opportunity, right?
We need to be in a goodenough state of mind
and feeling healthy and well enough
to capture that opportunityto make that impact
on the world.
Is that how you see things going forward?
- Certainly one of the things we've seen
is a much greater understanding
and literacy around the useof data and decision-making.
It's something that's becoming,
(30:32):
if we still had dinner parties,dinner party conversation.
People are used to hearingabout footfall numbers
in the city, and the sort ofinteraction in the public realm
is a daily metric forthe health of our cities.
I think there's some real value in that.
And particularly as werespond to the pandemic
(30:55):
and then turn our eyes towardsthe increasing challenges
around the climate emergency
and the skills that we'regoing to need as a sector
to come together to addresssome of those big challenges,
there's a real shift in how people
are thinking about approaching some
of those really bigproblems and doing that
(31:17):
in a way that makes conversations
about people's own mental health
much more public and acceptable.
- Yeah, exactly, I feel quite optimistic
because the conversation aroundmental health and wellbeing,
particularly in architecture but I think
in the built environmentprofessions more broadly,
the conversation is maturing
and the conversation is moving on.
(31:37):
And I really hope we can get out
of this kind of loopof is there a problem?
We think there's a problem.
We don't really know if there's a problem.
We don't have the evidence of the problem.
You know, it's a loop.
It has been a loop and we've been
in that for a long time now.
But we can get out of that loop and say,
okay, well, there's something going on
and we can do something about it.
And the pandemic experience has proven
that we can do something about it.
We can look after ourown people, you know,
(32:00):
at every level in every type of practise
in a very intentional anddeliberate kind of way.
And also, I mean, the pandemichas been very difficult
because people had troubleaccessing professional help,
but it's been very goodbecause people tried
to access professional help.
A so-called help-seeking culture,
which I'm told by my colleagueswho are proper psychologists
(32:21):
and so forth, is reallywhat we want, you know.
There's no stigma inhaving a psychologist.
I have a psychologistwho I see very regularly
and it's very beneficial.
A help-seeking culture,
which moves beyond onfrom de-stigmatization.
Of course, we want no stigmatisation,
but we want to go on from that,
be much more ambitious than that.
And for example, leadershipof organisations like the ACA,
(32:41):
the Association of Consulting Architects,
who've recently releasedan Australian version
of the Architect's MentalWellbeing Forum toolkit,
which is a really great resource.
Organisations and individuals
are really stepping up onthis, including Hassell,
and I see that as areal cause of optimism.
- And also the recognition that, oh,
(33:02):
we can change how we work, you know.
We changed how we workovernight, as you said.
And I think we shouldtake that internally,
like we talked about before,
internally within our organisations
but then also outwards as wellto be able to say to clients,
"Well, why don't we do it this other way?"
Or to say to the industry,
"Well, can we suggest adifferent approach to that
(33:25):
"because I think if we don't do it,
"no one else is going to do it."
- Design professionals really
are leaders on kind ofvalues-based leadership
in the construction sector.
I really think that's true.
So it's not going to be done by anyone
if it's not done by us.
So we really have tostep into that, I think.
(gentle music)- Well, Naomi, Bonnie,
thank you so much for joiningthe "Hassell Talks" podcast.
(33:46):
It's been great to have you,fascinating conversation.
We could talk for days aboutthis stuff if they let us.
- Absolute pleasure.- Thanks for having us.
- Thanks for listening to "Hassell Talks."
This episode was producedby Annie Scapetis,
Prue Vincent and Michaela Sheahan.
Subscribe and leave us areview or rate the podcast
because that helps us getinto the ears of more people
(34:08):
and shares these fantastic insights
that we gather from acrossour network of designers,
researchers and strategists.
(gentle music)
- Hi, I'm Steve Coster,
and welcome to the"Hassell Talks" podcast.
We're really thrilled this episode
to have Naomi Stead from Monash University
and Bonnie Shaw from Place Intelligence
to talk about mental health
and wellbeing in the design profession.
(00:21):
It's really good that we'rehaving way more honest
and regular conversationsabout this in the workplace
than probably used to happen historically.
And I suppose that's a silver lining
of probably the pandemic and COVID
and the very significantmental health impacts
of that, which we cantalk about in a moment.
(00:44):
But these challenges were challenges
before the pandemic as well,
and, you know, it's beencoming for a long time
and people have been warning us
that there's serious sort of mental health
and wellbeing issues thatwe need to understand better
and address, and it's particularly
so I think in architecture and design.
(01:05):
Naomi, it's great to have you here.
You're an academic at Monash University.
Can you talk a littlebit about your role there
and the research that you've been doing?
- Yes, so I'm professor of architecture
at Monash University.
I've been an academic in architecture
for some 20 years so have had a long time
to observe these kindsof wellbeing issues,
particularly in students,also in fellow academics
(01:28):
and also in the importantsubgroup of PhD students
who we find are actuallya pretty stressed group.
I'm leading a major research project,
an Australian ResearchCouncil linkage project,
which is about the work-relatedwellbeing of architects
and architecture students.
And it's a big project.
It's national in scope.
As I mentioned, it covers both education
(01:49):
and practise cultures
because we would say they're inextricably
and importantly linked.
And I guess the purpose ofthe project is really to try
and move on the conversationaround work-related wellbeing
and work cultures and professionalidentity in architecture
because it's so widespread,
the perception that there aremajor, well, let's say issues
(02:11):
with work-relatedwellbeing in architecture.
Many people believe that's the case.
There's been a lot of discussion,
professional media and commentary,
but there hasn't beena lot of reliable data,
empirical reliable primarydata to really tell us
what's actually going on,
let alone what we could do about it.
So that's what ourproject endeavours to do.
And we've just completed anindustry survey of practitioners
(02:35):
who broadly understood,
not just registeredarchitects in Australia,
which was completed by 2,300 people.
So that's a lot for along survey like this.
Really good uptake.
And I think what thattells us is not only it
will be an important dataset,
but also this issue reallyis being taken very seriously
by a large number ofpeople in the profession.
- Yeah, hear, hear, totally agree.
(02:57):
For me, when people ask, well,why are you so interested
in mental health and wellbeing
as it relates to architectural practise,
it's because I'm dealingwith the same mental health
and wellbeing challenges thatso many people in the industry
are dealing with and I'mdealing with those myself.
Is that the same for you?
Have you personally foundthe industry challenging
(03:20):
in the past and has thatled to your own interest
in this area?- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I've seen bad things can happen
as we all know, likecatastrophically bad things
for some individuals, andwe all know those stories,
and they're terrible, tragic stories
and they shouldn't happen but they do.
So I've been aware of them peripherally
throughout my career.
(03:40):
I have mental wellbeing issues of my own,
which are probably particularto academic contexts
and the kinds of overwork, burnout,
cynicism and perfectionismthat occur in academia as well.
But yes, I have lived experience.
I know what it's like to be anxious
and depressed and burnt out as well.
And I've never been a practisingarchitect, I must say.
(04:00):
I'm an academic from the very beginning.
So while I'm very familiarwith practise cultures,
I'm also something of anoutsider in that world,
which I think is an advantage.
It means that I can see itwith the eyes of an outsider.
I'm interested in thepeople in architecture.
Obviously, I'm alsointerested in the things
that architects produce.
I have a parallel life asan architectural critic.
(04:23):
I'm the architectural criticfor the Saturday paper,
but I'm also interested inthe people of architecture
and the cultures of production.
So how is it that the people and norms
and social practises and work practises
and identities of the peoplewithin the profession,
how does that enable or infact, stymie in some ways,
the kind of good work thatthey're able to produce
in the interest of the common good?
(04:44):
I had an earlier project
that I was also leadingmany years ago now,
which was about gender equity
in the architecture profession,also an ARC linkage project,
also with many industry partners.
And that led to the formation
of a research-based advocacygroup called Parlour.
And really, I think I can sayit changed the conversation
(05:06):
around gender equity inarchitecture in Australia,
and increasingly, it's
also being recognised internationally.
So I started, much as I hate to say,
I'm working my way around thesocial issues in architecture,
started off with gender equity
and then started to really see
that that was very closelyrelated to wellbeing issues.
The reason why women areleaving the profession
(05:26):
or some women leave isvery closely related
to wellbeing issues.
And obviously, many of the challenges
that women are facing in the workplace
are not gender specific.
They're are also faced by men.
So the two projects arereally closely integrated
in my mind.
I really hope that wecan change the culture
so fewer people are goingthrough those experiences.
- I might take that opportunity then
(05:46):
to also introduce Bonnie Shaw.
Bonnie is with us.
She's the co-founderof Place Intelligence,
but she's also recently trained herself
or been through a process of training
as a Human PotentialCoach to understand how
to affect your own responses to stress
(06:09):
and situations to be healthier.
Bonnie, welcome to the podcast.
Tell us a little bit about your background
and how you got into that.
- So I'm a trained landscapearchitect and urban designer,
but pretty early in my career,
I built a game with a bunchof friends and colleagues
that was played online and incities all around the world.
(06:31):
It was the early 2000s.
It was well before theiPhone and Instagram,
and it really touched a chordand it led to a placement
as a guest researcher at theSenseable Cities Lab at MIT
and worked in technology engagement,
product design anddevelopment in the tech world
for about 15 years.
And then supporting organisations
(06:51):
that were going throughrapid disruption and change.
And I thought I was reallygood at dealing with change.
I thought I was reallyflexible and adaptive
and knew all the tricks and how to manage
that stuff really well.
Up until a few years agowhen I got really unwell,
I ended up in hospital with what I thought
was a heart attack and spentabout eight hours hooked up
(07:16):
to a cardiogram and gettinga whole bunch of tests
on my heart to see what was going on.
And after sitting in the dark for hours,
kind of freaking outabout what was going on
and worrying about my family
and what was going tobecome of everything,
a doctor came in and toldme that it wasn't my heart.
It was stress.(monitor flat lining)
(07:38):
And so I had this kindof incredible moment
of really trying to understandsort of how my perception
of myself as being really well equipped
to deal with the stressin my life had led me
to this point of quite critical failure.
And my response, youknow, I am a co-founder
(08:01):
and leader in a data analytics company,
we use massive supercomputersto process huge data sets
to deliver insights to thebuild environment profession,
architects and designers around
how people use cities over time.
I'm used to using data asleverage for better decisions.
And so I went deep on some research
(08:23):
and really wanted to get to the bottom
of kind of what stress wasdoing to my body and brain
and what had brought me to this point.
And I found this incredible body of work
that when I made a connectionbetween resilience,
which I'm familiar withthrough Resilient Cities' work
and the ability for acity to recover quickly
(08:46):
from an acute shock orrespond to long-term strain.
And I found where that workhad originally come from,
which is a Hungarian endocrinologist
that was operating in the 1930s and '40s,
Hans Selye, who is actually the person
that originally coined theword stress and stressors.
(09:08):
And that work around resilience
was actually originallyreferring to the human body
and our ability as individuals
to withstand long-term strain
and recover quickly from shock.
I started exploring a wholerange of different modalities
on how to train myselfto get better equipped
(09:29):
to deal with the realities of the career
and the lifestyle that I had chosen,
and then wanted to put some structure
around how I could then apply
and share that with other people.
There's a new skillset that people need
to equip themselves withto be able to function
in this world that we find ourselves in
(09:49):
because the challengesthat we're facing now
with the climate emergency,with the COVID pandemic,
with a whole range of issues,
we need to be in the most effective state,
physiological state that we can to be able
to make good decisions in atime of really high stress.
- Naomi, in your workand the research so far,
(10:11):
which I know is still in progress
and is so important in our industry,
you would've been thinking alot about how mental health
and wellbeing relates particularly
to architects and designers.
Are there specificattributes or characteristics
of designers that youthink make this occur
in a particular way as opposed
(10:35):
to other professions orthe broader population?
- So I think what'sinteresting about architecture
is certain work practisesthat have emerged.
So practises of overwork,I think many people believe
that is a possible contributor
to deleterious wellbeing effects,
but we can see where that comes from.
(10:56):
And it comes from a really good place
as in a well motivated place,
which is that peoplewant to keep designing
until they get to thebest possible outcome.
So what this can mean isthat they're not stopping,
they're just keeping on going,
beyond the point where it'sno longer financially viable
or beyond the point
where they're really pushingtheir own personal wellbeing.
But it's really importantnot to lose sight of the fact
(11:17):
that the motivation for that is very good
and is very often altruistic.
So I think not just architects
but designers of the build environment
of all stripes are veryoften completely devoted
to the best possible outcome
for the largest possibleaudience and for the quality,
they're ambitious for the work.
They want the work to be asgood as it can possibly be.
(11:38):
- And they're trying to makethe world a better place
and they're more interested in that
than their own personal fame and fortune.
Naomi, that's what you're--- Absolutely.
- Yeah.- I mean, some people
are interested in fame and fortune.
There's nothing wrong with that.
But when some people areinterested in fame and fortune
and the good of the world,
I think you can have aboth-and situation here,
which is important.
(11:58):
But yeah, the altruism thing,
meaning you put others before yourself,
you know, it's a great thingbut it can have effects.
- It's both a decline inproductivity and wellbeing,
but also when you're underlong-term stress and strain,
actually, there's chemical reactions,
physiological reactionsand neurological reactions
(12:19):
that happen in your body
that actually shiftsthe way both your body
and brain function and makeyou think in different ways.
They make you make decisions differently.
You're much more likelyto have a fixed mindset.
You've got decreased task flexibility,
(12:39):
so you're more likely to want
to repeat the things thatyou've already always done
and less likely to want to try new things.
You're less collaborative,
you're less empathetic, more aggressive.
And so there's a whole bunchof what we would probably start
to call character traitsthat start to emerge
(13:01):
when people's bodies
and brains have beenunder long-term stress
that are sort of shiftingthe way you might engage
in a workplace and mightengage with making decisions
that actually make us much less effective.
- Well, I mean, it seems tome that one of the key things
is that people leave, people simply leave.
It gets to the point wherethey can't take it anymore
(13:24):
for a variety of reasons.
And then there is a loss of talent,
and this happens throughout the pipeline,
let's say, of people's career,
throughout the careerbiography as they say.
And in my earlier work on gender equity,
it was quite clear that a lot of women
were leaving at every stage,
including just aftergraduation all the way through
to senior levels.
(13:46):
So there's a brain drainand that's a problem
because not only, as Bonnie is saying,
not only do we need people operating
at their optimal mostcreative, most effective,
most lateral level.
We also need the most diverse teams
and you know, every brainthat we possibly can,
(14:08):
who has talent in this area,
in the room to facethese coming challenges.
So I'd say that that'sthe macro level challenge.
I should say that in ourproject, our principal partner
is the New South WalesArchitects Registration Board,
and of course all thearchitects' registration boards
around the country,
their mandate is reallyabout consumer protection.
(14:29):
They regulate architects with the mandate
to protect the consumer.
So their interest inquestions of mental wellbeing
is really that possibly, hopefully not,
but possibly an architectwho was not working optimally
may in fact put lives at risk,
their own life but other lives as well.
So that's a completelydifferent angle on the question
(14:52):
that buildings can be dangerous.
They really can.
So you know, we really needhappy, creative workers to work
in the most optimal way
for everybody's safety and happiness.
- That constant exposure to threat
that you're talking about,
Bonnie, and the reaction thatthat generates in our bodies.
(15:12):
We've got a particularcircumstance at the moment
with the pandemic andthe ongoing lockdowns
where you're gettingreally extended periods
of heightened threat response.
Naomi, are you seeingor are you hearing out
in the industry talk aboutmental wellbeing issues
in the design professionsthat that is really heightened
(15:34):
at the moment?
How are people experiencing that?
Is it burnout like we used to get
or is it different at the moment?
- Mm, I think it has a different flavour.
It's also very clear
that it's having verydifferent effects according
to the individual.
Different effects ondifferent sizes of practise,
kinds of practise, locations of practise.
All the western Australiansare doing just great,
(15:54):
but feeling really guilty.
And you know, I was in ameeting the other day talking
to a young woman workingin Sydney and she said,
"I am just loving this.
"I am living my best life.
"It suits me perfectly."
But there were otherpeople in her same practise
who were just really, really struggling,
especially the leadership, Imust say, who are exhausted.
I think the leaders
(16:15):
who were really goodcommunicators came into their own
during certainly the earlystages of the pandemic,
and then they reached outagain and again and again
in every way possible andconnected with their staff
and brought them togethervirtually in a completely new way,
in a very intentional way as well.
Things that previouslywouldn't necessarily
have been thought of werethought of explicitly,
(16:37):
and you know, it had very,very positive effects,
and I think it will continueto have very positive effects,
but everyone is exhausted now.
Anecdotally, I hearthat a lot of practises
are extremely busy,
but one of the keysources of staff for them,
i.e. people coming in from overseas,
is of course no longer available.
They're really busy.
They're really tired.
They don't have theability to get extra staff.
(16:59):
They can't see the lightat the end of the tunnel.
And so right now,
I would say it was a quiteparticular challenge.
It's just that you know,there was a lot of adrenaline
in the early stages and everyone was like,
the whites of the eyes were very visible.
It's not so much like that now.
- And I think peoplehave been very reluctant
to take holidays or take breaks
(17:20):
because they haven't beenable to travel anywhere
or they haven't felt they can plan.
I remember a leadership expert,
who was actually froma military background
to originally talking aboutthe delayed effect of stress,
traumatic exposure manifesting
as much as 18 months after the event.
(17:41):
Their studies in that settingshowed it was a whole year
and a half later from some trauma
that people suddenly fell in a hole
'cause they held themselves together
but they couldn't hold themselves together
for more than 18 months.
I think we've got a bit of thatgoing on too at the moment,
which is almost exactly on 18 months
from the beginning of thepandemic in Australia anyway.
(18:07):
And are there things
that you are already seeing coming through
in your conversations around the research
that are pointing to obvious areas
where we can improverelatively simple things maybe
that might make a big difference?
Are those things startingto emerge already?
At a glance, particularly
(18:28):
at the qualitative open fieldquestions in our survey,
what becomes really clearis that people are seeing it
as a systemic structural issue
and that it's not necessarily
about the personalfailings of individuals.
I was very pleased tosee that, I must say.
It's not people saying, "Oh, it's my fault
"'cause I can't workthose kinds of hours."
They're saying, "Well,actually, this is untenable."
(18:50):
A very large proportion of people said
that they had changed jobs.
A very large proportion ofpeople had a career break.
Perhaps those things aren't surprising.
And if you're in a terriblejob, well, you should move.
You know, you really should move.
Don't stay there and suffer.
I was encouraged to see that people
are understanding thatit is the constraints
on the architecture profession as a whole
(19:11):
which are producing some ofthese downstream effects.
So if the fees that have been charged
for project are not adequate,
it means that everyone is under pressure
and has to work harder in less time,
has less control over that workflow
and the time in which it needs to be done.
More risk, more responsibility,
more pressure, more of a high-wire act.
(19:32):
One of our early intervieweessaid that being an architect
is sometimes like being the goalkeeper,
you know, pretty high pressure.
Mistakes are conspicuous.
And so structural issuesaround not only fee scales
and working conditionsand adequate resourcing
and HR management andfinancial management,
workflow management, but alsothe valuing of the profession,
(19:54):
the design profession as a whole.
I mean, if they're not valued financially
or valued in a sense ofwe value good design,
well, then we've really got a problem.
So if the profession were more valued
and I must say I get tiredof people saying that
'cause it's like a refrain, someone,
we need a new Robin Boyd
to stand up and valuearchitecture in the public domain.
(20:16):
But it's actually also true.
There are people doing that.
There really are, it'snot like there's no one,
but somehow that message isn'tquite cutting through yet.
- So my day job
is bringing quantitativedata-driven insights
to bear on design projects tosupport better decision-making
(20:38):
at the front end of designs
and the ability to runlongitudinal impact studies
on the outcomes of greatdesign in the public realm
and being able to put somequantitative parameters
around what great designdoes in a community.
(20:59):
And so for me, I guess italways comes back to being able
to have some really solidevidence around the impact
of the decisions that you're making,
whether that's aroundyour own personal health
and kind of assessing where you're at
in a moment before you take action
or don't act or in the impactthat a design is having
(21:24):
and the value that that candeliver into a community.
- Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree.
I also think though, just inthe project management space,
there's a lot we could dothat would flow through
from that through to theconditions for architectural work
and production that would help.
I think the speed of thingshas gotten greater and greater.
(21:49):
The expectation aroundthe number of options
has gotten greater and greater.
You know, the turnaround timesand the lack of understanding
of what goes in behind inorder to produce those options,
the timelines are justgetting pretty ridiculous.
I often wonder whether it's related
(22:09):
to the rise of the whole software industry
and the tech industry.
We deal with a lot of clients now,
I think, who sort ofbring these methodologies
or mythology from software design
and think it can apply tobuilding buildings, you know?
But the problem with a building
is you can't upload an upgradeto your beta test overnight
(22:31):
if your beta test doesn't work very well
because you've poured it inconcrete and built it in steel.
So there's a bit of falseattribution I think of some
of these working methods and mindset.
It takes quite a lot ofconfidence and evidence, sure,
to be able to push back and say, actually,
it's better for us to beslower through this first part
(22:52):
and spend the time properly
in order that we don'thave issues down the line.
And to make that case in the rough
and tumble of big complexprojects is extremely challenging
and very high pressure initself to make that case.
And we've got to help our people I think
as an industry have confidence to do that.
- And I think I've seen, likehaving spent a lot of time
(23:15):
in the technology sector
and working with builtenvironment professionals,
I'm seeing a flow between both industries
in terms of ideas andthinking and approaches.
And I think a lot of peopleworking in technology these days
are trying to learn and borrow approaches,
(23:40):
particularly from the designand architectural sector
and thinking very considerately
about the impacts of their work now
and really starting to takeon some of the practises
that are slower, that aremore ethically driven.
(24:01):
And while I genuinely do believe
that the work in the technology sector,
particularly around kind of how projects
are run in a slightly more agile way,
can teach many different sectors a thing
or two about how to approachadaptive challenges,
(24:22):
there are historical reasons
for why things are done in certain ways
in particular industries.
And it doesn't serve anyonewell to kind of pick up
and throw those out and just try
to run things a whole lotfaster and differently.
There's got to be a combinationof learning from both.
(24:44):
- Yeah, although, Bonnie,I'm really interested
in the times when youshould jump the tracks.
Do you know what I mean?- Yeah.
- Like, for example, oneof our research partners,
industry partners in our research project
is the Fulcrum Agency,
which is of course a small
to medium size practise based in Perth.
It started off as CODA,was very successful,
(25:06):
merged with Cox, unmerged with Cox,
so they've been through a lot.
But of course, now they callthemselves the Fulcrum Agency
and they have very deliberately said,
"We don't want to play that game anymore
"for wellbeing reasons
"and business reasons,business liability."
And I've been so impressed
by how they have strategically said,
"These parts of architecture,
(25:27):
"as it was practised, we think are broken.
"We want to set them aside.
"We're gonna call ourselves an agency.
"The word architecturewill appear nowhere.
"We will charge as we should charge,
"as we must charge inorder to do the work."
And it's just so fascinating to see
that they've said that is broken.
We are walking away from that
and we are inventing anew way of doing things.
(25:50):
It's obviously much harderfor really large practises.
- Yeah, fascinating.- For example, Hassell,
also a partner on our research project.
Thank you very much, Steve.
It's much harder.
Like, there's an inertia there.
And also as you say, when you're working
with government clients,
you can't just change theway you do things overnight.
- I think it sounds like,and it makes sense, you know,
(26:10):
there are systemic externalthings in the industry
that are definitely contributing
that we could identify andhone in on and seek to affect.
There's then things withinthe way we structure
and organise our own practise,
which equally we can identify and affect,
and I think we'll try to do that.
(26:31):
Bonnie, you know, you'retalking about skills
and capabilities as individualswithin that environment.
Can you talk a little bit more
about what some of thosepractical things are
and the things you've learned
about that help peoplemanage stressful situations
at a personal level?
- The first step is toreally cultivate an awareness
(26:53):
of what's actually going onby asking the right questions
and get some real quantifiable data to try
and understand why it's happening.
And as an individual,
use your body as a data collection tool.
Consider how fast your heart is beating,
how shallow is your breath,how animated are your gestures?
(27:13):
You know, are you sweating?
Are you feeling a bit uncomfortable?
All of those things arereally good data to try
and get a read on whereyour physiology is at.
And then take a pause.
And so once you've gotyour data, pause and assess
and kinda dig into it and analyse it
and think about what's going on.
(27:36):
And there's this amazing thing
that happens in your bodyif you're feeling stressed,
if you're going through a stress response,
and you take a deep breath down
into the bottom of your lungsand really get down there,
it actually short-circuitsthe stress response.
You can't sit in a stress state
and take a deep breath at thesame time, it's impossible.
And so once you've got that andyou've done your assessment,
(28:01):
then be intentional aboutyour action that you take
and choose how you respond.
But it's about reclaimingyour agency from your biology.
And so your biology, when you're not aware
of what's going on,there's a bunch of triggers
and things that are happeningthat are forcing you
to act in certain ways.
(28:21):
But if you can just get thosesteps and take that pause
and assess your data a bit better,
then you can act with intention.
And then the last thing,
and this is in every frameworkthat we would ever use
in our data analytics work,
is try and monitor and learnfrom the results of that.
So if you are able to then
(28:42):
as an individual consciouslygo through that process
and intentionally takeaction or choose not to act,
what happens as a result of that?
Notice the reactions thatthe people you're with have
and how they respond to youand try and learn from that.
(29:04):
- So then, what about looking forward?
At some point, hopefully, you know,
we're coming out the otherside of the acute impacts
of this pandemic, andwhilst it won't be the same
as it was before, hopefullywe'll get more bandwidth back
to think about the workwe do in the world.
It seems to us, at Hassell I mean,
(29:27):
that actually through this period,
if anything, people haveeven further realised
how important great places are,
you know, that the valueof good quality places
for people to come together,
whether it's their workplaceor their university campus
or the restaurants they go to with friends
or the public spaces in their cities.
(29:49):
From our point of view, wethink the value of good design
and good places is getting greater
as a result of this and over time.
Do you see that?
And I guess how doesthat relate to the issues
of mental health and wellbeing?
Because we need people to be well enough
(30:10):
to get after that opportunity, right?
We need to be in a goodenough state of mind
and feeling healthy and well enough
to capture that opportunityto make that impact
on the world.
Is that how you see things going forward?
- Certainly one of the things we've seen
is a much greater understanding
and literacy around the useof data and decision-making.
It's something that's becoming,
(30:32):
if we still had dinner parties,dinner party conversation.
People are used to hearingabout footfall numbers
in the city, and the sort ofinteraction in the public realm
is a daily metric forthe health of our cities.
I think there's some real value in that.
And particularly as werespond to the pandemic
(30:55):
and then turn our eyes towardsthe increasing challenges
around the climate emergency
and the skills that we'regoing to need as a sector
to come together to addresssome of those big challenges,
there's a real shift in how people
are thinking about approaching some
of those really bigproblems and doing that
(31:17):
in a way that makes conversations
about people's own mental health
much more public and acceptable.
- Yeah, exactly, I feel quite optimistic
because the conversation aroundmental health and wellbeing,
particularly in architecture but I think
in the built environmentprofessions more broadly,
the conversation is maturing
and the conversation is moving on.
(31:37):
And I really hope we can get out
of this kind of loopof is there a problem?
We think there's a problem.
We don't really know if there's a problem.
We don't have the evidence of the problem.
You know, it's a loop.
It has been a loop and we've been
in that for a long time now.
But we can get out of that loop and say,
okay, well, there's something going on
and we can do something about it.
And the pandemic experience has proven
that we can do something about it.
We can look after ourown people, you know,
(32:00):
at every level in every type of practise
in a very intentional anddeliberate kind of way.
And also, I mean, the pandemichas been very difficult
because people had troubleaccessing professional help,
but it's been very goodbecause people tried
to access professional help.
A so-called help-seeking culture,
which I'm told by my colleagueswho are proper psychologists
(32:21):
and so forth, is reallywhat we want, you know.
There's no stigma inhaving a psychologist.
I have a psychologistwho I see very regularly
and it's very beneficial.
A help-seeking culture,
which moves beyond onfrom de-stigmatization.
Of course, we want no stigmatisation,
but we want to go on from that,
be much more ambitious than that.
And for example, leadershipof organisations like the ACA,
(32:41):
the Association of Consulting Architects,
who've recently releasedan Australian version
of the Architect's MentalWellbeing Forum toolkit,
which is a really great resource.
Organisations and individuals
are really stepping up onthis, including Hassell,
and I see that as areal cause of optimism.
- And also the recognition that, oh,
(33:02):
we can change how we work, you know.
We changed how we workovernight, as you said.
And I think we shouldtake that internally,
like we talked about before,
internally within our organisations
but then also outwards as wellto be able to say to clients,
"Well, why don't we do it this other way?"
Or to say to the industry,
"Well, can we suggest adifferent approach to that
(33:25):
"because I think if we don't do it,
"no one else is going to do it."
- Design professionals really
are leaders on kind ofvalues-based leadership
in the construction sector.
I really think that's true.
So it's not going to be done by anyone
if it's not done by us.
So we really have tostep into that, I think.
(gentle music)- Well, Naomi, Bonnie,
thank you so much for joiningthe "Hassell Talks" podcast.
(33:46):
It's been great to have you,fascinating conversation.
We could talk for days aboutthis stuff if they let us.
- Absolute pleasure.- Thanks for having us.
- Thanks for listening to "Hassell Talks."
This episode was producedby Annie Scapetis,
Prue Vincent and Michaela Sheahan.
Subscribe and leave us areview or rate the podcast
because that helps us getinto the ears of more people
(34:08):
and shares these fantastic insights
that we gather from acrossour network of designers,
researchers and strategists.
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