What does bouncing Kraftwerk’s music off the surface of the moon have to do with the future of the university campus?
Universities are paying close attention to the way interstellar music-science-arts-technology-culture experience makers bluedotfestival engage audiences in cross-disciplinary learning. But how far do they need to go on campus?
Turns out - they need to create a 'wow' factor deeply rooted in curiosity and learning.
Who better to debate the future of the university campus than Hassell's co-lead of Education and Science, Julian Gitsham, together with the creators of bluedot, Professor Teresa Anderson and Professor Tim O’Brien of the University of Manchester's Jodrell Bank.
In this episode we hear how to look at the benefits of designing environments around problem solving – rather than disciplines – and how good design can create and facilitate inclusive, innovative, and problem solving campuses.
Links Cultural chemistry on campus web page bluedot festival First Light Pavilion Jodrell Bank Observatory
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
(energetic music)- From Hassell,
an award-winning, multi-disciplinaryglobal design practise,
this is Hassell Talks.
Hello, I'm Julian Gitsham.
I'm an architect and Iwork in our London Studio.
Universities are so excitingbecause they epitomise
the state of flux the studentsare in and the process
of change during their time studying
(00:20):
and experiencing life and learning
in their chosen city or campus.
They also, very often launchpeople into their chosen fields
and create a pathway fora role in the future.
I often think it's a privilege to be able
to design educational spacesand to be able to work
with great academic minds, enthusiastic
and committed students, and to help shape
(00:41):
the problem solvers of the future.
If you haven't stepped footinto a university campus
in a while, you won't realisethe enormous shifts going on
inside educationalinstitutions around the world.
Long before COVID, there was a sense
from our university clientsand education collaborators
that we were talking to thatgreater change was needed
to reflect the extraordinary times
(01:03):
that we're living through, to help solve
the biggest challenges theworld is currently facing,
and to change the preconceptions
of what a universitycampus is, and could be,
designing for a completelynew generation of thinkers.
In the real world, everythingis mingled together.
Problems and challenges aren't definable
to one issue or source.
And so, how do we take these sometimes
(01:25):
very established institutionsand use design to help them?
I'd like to explore today,interdisciplinary approaches
to education with benefitsand designing environments
around problem-solvingrather than disciplines,
and the challenges to, androle of equality inclusion
in areas like science,technology, engineering,
(01:45):
and mathematics, and howgood design can create
and facilitate inclusive, innovative,
and problem-solving campuses.
And I have with me two guestswho have, over the years,
never fails to inspire me asinnovators and communicators
of exactly this, of crossingthe thresholds of thinking
and thinking big.
So, I'm delighted towelcome Teresa Anderson
(02:07):
and Tim O'Brien to the conversation.
If those names soundfamiliar, it's because Teresa
and Tim are the team behind the Music,
Science and Culture eventat the Bluedot Festival.
Bluedot takes place atJodrell Bank Observatory
and Discovery Centre in Cheshire, England,
and attracts headline actslike Bjork, Underworld,
Goldfrapp, The Flaming Lips,
(02:28):
Chemical Brothers, and Kraftwerk.
Teresa Anderson MBE is a Britishphysicist and the director
of the University ofManchester's Discovery Centre
at Jodrell Bank.
She has a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering
and a Master's in Fine Art.
She's a professor at theUniversity of Manchester
and has until recently, been the Chair
(02:49):
of the Daphne Jackson Trust,which provides fellowships
to scientists, technologists,engineers, and mathematicians
to return them to theircareers after a career break
of over two years taken for family,
caring, or health reasons.
Tim O'Brien is anastrophysicist and a professor
at the University of Manchester's School
of Physics and Astronomy.
(03:10):
He is Associate Directorof Jodrell Bank Centre
for Astrophysics, and I'm delighted
that they are able to join me, welcome.
- I should probably just declarean interest at this point
because Tim and I are marriedto each other, (giggles)
which we haven't yet said.
We're a husband and wifeteam and we do quite a lot,
you know, of weird andwacky things together,
like, for example, weirdevents at Jodrell Bank and,
(03:32):
you know, making JodrellBank a World Heritage site
and things.
One of the things we-
- Yeah, small things like that.
- Yeah, little things like that.
And one of the things thatwe are very interested in,
and it's because we've bothgot science backgrounds,
massive science backgroundsis the fact that
as far as we're concerned,science is part of culture,
but people who are kind of moresteeped in the culture side
(03:54):
of things don't seem tosee science like that,
so you end up, you know,that I blame CP Snow
with his flipping two-culturesthing for a lot of this
because, you know, a lot of people
who don't have a science background think
that science is something different,
when as far as we are concerned,
it's, you know, it's arealm of human endeavour.
It takes creativity, a lotof grit, a lot of patience,
(04:18):
diligence, you know,discipline, all of those things
that everything takes ifyou're going to be good at it.
So, we wanted to sort of, you know,
express that and explore that
with as many people as possible and people
who are interested inculture, props a bit,
I don't know if it'sintimidated by science,
(04:39):
but, you know, can't find a root in,
so we wanted to just, you know, take down
the barriers a bit and have a bit of fun,
obviously, (chuckles) because it is fun.
- Come and have some fun
and sort of learn something, as well.
- Mm, nice.- Yes.
- It is fun, it is fun.
And I loved your quoteabout "Strange beasts."
(04:59):
It being a strange beast andthat combination of culture,
and music, and science.
- Still, people don't get it.
You know, people still say,"Well, is it an arts festival,
or is it a science festival,or is it a music festival?"
It's like, well, it's everything.
It's a mix of everything andit still defies categorization.
- No, I think it's a festivalof creativity really,
(05:20):
in a sense, you know, we talkabout the creative sector
and generally, that'ssome sort of shorthand for
often, sort of arts, andculture, and like we were saying,
TV and film and all these sorts of things.
And, of course, they'reincredibly important,
but it somehow, you know,
seems to almost exclude the science
(05:41):
and engineering side of things,which are equally creative
in their own way, you know,
You couldn't do scientificresearch without being creative.
You're creating new knowledge.
And so, actually, our sort ofview is that it's not the case
that one of these things ismore important than the other.
They work together, actually.
(06:03):
You know, you couldn't have bands like,
I don't know, Kraftwerkor something like that,
which are completely reliant
on synthesisers and pioneersin electronic music.
Of course, that's completelybased on engineering
and the scientific understandingof how music works.
So, I think that's how we're feeling is
just to get people together in a space,
(06:26):
whether they're artists,musicians, scientists, engineers,
whatever, and just share our sort of view,
and as Teresa have a joy in it, (chuckles)
what we're doing really andour joy of understanding
the planet and our place in the universe.
- The other thing that'squite interesting is
that we, you know, mix people up, I mean.
(06:47):
So, I mean, when we had Kraftwerk,
for example, we had an event
after the Kraftwerk's performance
when Tim, in collaboration with them,
and with their permissionand they were in the room,
in the same room, it was like2000 people in a big tent.
Tim bounced their music offthe surface of the moon.
Now, is that science, yes.
(07:07):
Is it technology, yes.
Is it art, yes.
Is it music, yes.
Was it a big collective experience, yes.
Did we all cheer, yes!
When it came back, it was just,you know, a fantastic moment
and that's kind of what we're about,
those sort of moments of crossover,
and connection, and celebration.
- Yes, I think that's why Iwas so particularly interested
(07:31):
in it in terms of the learning environment
and how we translate that into, you know,
the next generation of thinkers.
So, Bluedot has obviously gota huge range of people coming
to it, and you also have ahuge range of people coming
to the Discovery Centre,starting with the very young,
(07:52):
primary or preschool age.
And I think I'm sort ofinterested in if you,
you said something, Teresa,
earlier about how somepeople still don't get it,
how they want to categorise it.
And that's the brilliantthing about it is you can't.
- Just sort of thinking a bitmore than about the students
(08:16):
that you both are workingwith and so those on Campus
at Manchester University andthose coming and researching,
and those professionalsand academics working
at Jodrell Bank, what do youthink that we could bring
to those environments tomake them work even better?
(08:40):
Because a lot of the workthat we're now trying to do
when you designing spaces for research is
to not have categorization, to make sure
that it's as interdisciplinaryas possible, basically.
So you're not having any silos.
And I'm wondering what wecan bring to that thinking
(09:02):
that we might be able tolearn from these experiences
that you've had.
- In a way, you need all these things.
You need silos and youneed interdisciplinary.
I don't think you can getout because to make progress
in a particular field, youdo need to immerse yourself
(09:22):
in that field and you need tosurround yourself with people
who are also working in that field
and are experts in that field.
You're not going to makeprogress if you only talk
to people from outside of your field.
But equally, if you are only to talk
to people inside your field,you're going to miss out
on different ways of doing things,
different approaches, different questions.
(09:44):
So, it's quite, I mean, it'sa difficult answer, isn't it?
Because you are right,interdisciplinary is important,
but don't, you know, we shouldn't forget
that people need quiet spaces,
they need spaces to bewith, you know, themselves
and with their thoughts, aswell as with other people.
But then having somespaces where you intersect,
(10:06):
where you clearly can workwith the people who are
the experts in the exactthing you're working on.
I mean we're doing a course at the moment
for undergraduates at Manchester.
We've got an area of the university called
the University College ofInterdisciplinary Learning,
UCIL and its aim isactually to put on courses
(10:27):
that are open to studentsfrom across the University.
So students are given anexperience of a subject outside
of their primary field of thestudy and so we're, myself,
Mike Garrett, who's inJodrell as well, a biologist
and a person working inculture and the media,
(10:49):
have developed a courseon aliens, basically.
So, alien life, extraterrestrial life.
And it's interdisciplinaryfrom the outset because it is
the, that idea that we useour radio telescopes to search
for extraterrestrial signals, we do.
We, just in case extraterrestrialsare sending us messages,
(11:11):
it would be remiss ofus not to be looking.
So, we do not.(Julian laughs)
But, and we haven't found any yet.
I can't announce that onyour podcast, I'm afraid.
(speakers talking andlaughing over each other)
This is just like lettingyou know straight off,
you're not getting an exclusive,
but we haven't yet found any.
We could, right, there could,
(11:33):
there could easily beextraterrestrials out there.
So, there's a whole areaof science that, you know,
has physics, and astrophysics,
and it has technicalengineering aspects to it,
searching for extraterrestrials.
It then spills over into biology.
What is life anyway?
What sort of extraterrestriallife might exist?
What's the requirements for light?
(11:54):
But then it has thiswhole cultural dimension,
how do we feel about,
what do we mean byaliens, extraterrestrials?
How do we, how are theyrepresented in literature,
in film, and so on?
And so that course is veryinteresting, you know, for us.
We get students from acrossthe University taking it,
(12:16):
and it's all online, andit's been very popular
and I think we've reallyenjoyed teaching it and hearing
from people with thesedifferent perspectives.
(energetic music)
- But I think with the FirstLight project, that place,
everybody that I've spokento and my own experience
(12:37):
of it as well, is thatpeople will, hopefully,
turn up and go, "Goodgrief, wow, this is amazing.
You know, what a place, Inever thought this was here."
You know, is that, how you...
Hopefully, was that yourvision for the project and is
that kind of in the context of this sort
(12:57):
of learning experience?
- Yeah, I think that's, we both decided
that's what we wanted.
And it's a challenge atJodrell because at Jodrell,
we have the Lovell Telescope,the grade one listed, amazing,
massive icon of science.
And to create something, youknow, people, get off a couch
or out of a car and go, "Wow,"and see it from the hills,
(13:19):
and what have you.
And so to have somethingelse, another structure
at the site, that doesn'tcompete with the Lovell,
that actually, you know,is in the same vein,
it's about humanity's relationshipwith the sky is amazing.
And every person I'vetaken to show them around
so far has said, "Wow,"they've said, "Wow."
(13:41):
Every single person has walked up-
- Fantastic.
- The little approach that we'vegot between the two hedges.
There's a little bit of a reveal,let's face it, at the end,
and everybody's gone-
- Yes.- "Wow, that's amazing,"
and then when they get inside,
there's another "Wow" becauseof that amazing window,
that's the meridian line,that's the internal sundial
within the building, you know,
(14:02):
those structure like Newgrange,and it's in that tradition.
And in fact, it's reallyfunny, we had a meeting
of the World Heritage SiteSteering Group, and you know,
people came from UNESCO and what have you,
and we took them to see itand they all went, "Wow."
And then, because theyknow about the Heritage,
one of them said, "Oh, myGod, it's like Newgrange."
(14:26):
You know, and they suddenly came out
with all these archaeological,
historical, millennia-oldreferences to these structures
that connect to thesky, and that's what Tim
and I really thought at thestart when we were writing
the funding bids, writingthe spare, everything.
That's what we'd asked for, so yeah,
we're delighted with it, yeah.
(14:47):
- Yeah, amazing, isn'tit a brilliant example
of that combination of culture and history
and science together?
All working together and just, you know,
creating that experience?
So, I suppose that there's,it's interesting, isn't it
that the whole JodrellBank place and site,
(15:11):
and World Heritage site?
Do you bring students,undergraduates, post-grads,
early career researchers, etcetera, to the site as often?
I mean, I'm sure they...
Do they study much on?
- Yeah, undergraduatescome out in the first week
you know, when they arrive at university,
(15:32):
They have a special sortof visit to see the place,
basically, so there'sbuses that bring people out
to have a tour around.
But then, and, of course,they actually use it
as part of their studies,so there's both, you know,
as they go through in a degree in physics,
they use the telescopes atJodrell remotely, initially.
So over a viral webinterface, they can use one
(15:54):
of our telescopes here andthen we bring them out to use
the telescopes personally.
So, they come and visitlater in their degree.
And then, of course, theresearchers use it all the time.
So, we use, you know,
You don't have to be ata telescope to use it.
I mean, you know, I usetelescopes on spacecraft,
(16:14):
and rather sadly, I don't get to go
to the spacecraft to use them. (laughs)
So, we actually make a specialpoint for the research group
that makes the most useof the Lovell Telescope,
which is the Pulsar Group.
They actually come out toJodrell once a week, specially.
And the only reason they alluse it to doing that, in fact,
(16:34):
was so that they could see the Telescope
that takes the data withwhich they were working.
Otherwise, we could havejust left them in Manchester
on Campus and they couldhave downloaded the data
and gone on with it.
But we felt it was important for them
to have that connection.
And it is an emotional connection as well
with the telescope, you know?
(16:55):
- We also have Masterstudents coming in from School
of Arts, Languages, and Cultures now.
So, the Master's studentsin Cultural Practise come
and do internships with us.
And since we've, you know,created this Centre, and Bluedot,
and what have you, and alsothe World Heritage site,
so we now, you know, arebeing interdisciplinary
(17:18):
(laughs) in our contributionto the post-grad research
and practise that's going on.
So it's definitely growing, I think.
- It's really interesting.
Now, do you think thatthere's a place for bringing
that idea, that concept, to the Campus?
(17:39):
So, almost the reverse of art.
I mean, you talked toLisa also in the past
about that wow moments andthat inspiration that you need,
and I wondered what you meant by that
when you spoke about that?
Was that about-- Yeah, so-
- An experience, or anemotion, or a place?
- Yes, I think it's aboutemotion because I think
(18:00):
the thing is now more than ever,
information's availableeverywhere (laughs)
and you know, really,
Education isn't really aboutdelivering information,
it's about developing skills.
And it is partly aboutimparting what's understood
in your field, but the thingis that people are only going
(18:24):
to learn and engage withwhatever they're interested in.
If they care about it, if theyhave a "Wow that's amazing,"
or "Oh, that's funny," or, "I'mreally curious about that,"
or, you know, this sortof emotional moment starts
the movement towardsinvestigation and what have you.
And we always say, you know,if you can get a kid to say,
(18:47):
"Well, why is the sky blue?"
You know, the minutethey ask that question,
that makes them a scientist, effectively.
You know, that's what science is about.
It's about being curiousand taking responsibility
for your own exploration of it.
But people only do that if they care.
- Yes.- And they only care
if it's exciting, or it'sintriguing, you know,
(19:09):
or annoying, or whatever,and those are all emotions.
It's about engaging people as,you know, as a whole person,
not just a brain.
- We've been doing a lot of work
in Martin University MasterPlanning where we're trying
to bring interventions andrelationships between culture,
perhaps in the city.
You're bringing aprogramme of events aligned
(19:31):
with the universities togetherso that you are creating
the festivals there andemotional experiences there
rather than just a bunch of buildings.
And I wondered what you thought
about whether you could reversethat, the idea of Bluedot,
(19:52):
but in a more campus-based experience?
- I think it's got to have, I think,
one of the things about Jodrell, though,
is its sense of place.
And the fact that thesite is dominated by huge,
massive radio telescopes,which is a very weird thing,
you know, just createsa certain experience.
(20:13):
And I mean we do do-- Yes.
- You know, Bluedot,microdots as we call them,
in urban environment to that,
and they have a different character.
And the University actually has lots
of other little festivals around.
You know, there's a sustainability one
and there's various other things
that I think one of thethings that you have
(20:33):
to remember is there's asort of authenticity, really,
that is to do with a sense of place.
And getting that tone is quitean interesting challenge.
- I mean, it just depends-- Yes.
- On your, like Teresa says,I think having something
like Jodrell has its own particular impact
because of the location,because, you know, it's very tied
(20:55):
into that location and the giant telescope
that's looking out intospace while people are there.
I think that's whatpeople love about that.
But equally, you couldhave an event in the city
and then you get a differentgroup of people coming along.
So, yeah, the University has acommunity festival where it's
in one of the university buildings
and local residents can comein and find out what's going on
(21:16):
in those buildings.
We did a...
We set up a science engagement event,
it's called ScienceX a few years ago
that's been very successful.
And it's in the trafficcentre, the big shopping centre
in Manchester, or just outin Trafford Park, just-
- It was Tim's idea actually.- Yeah.
(Tim and Teresa laughing)
(21:37):
- You like your trafficcentres, don't you, Tim?
- So, it's a bit busy,you know, that's a sign.
That's, I know, a faculty for the Science
and Engineering Facultyand we get a whole bunch
of researchers and, you know,
undergraduate postgraduatestudents, researchers,
and they go into the shopping centre
and they set up stallswithin the shopping centre,
and we basically capture peoplethat are doing the shopping.
(21:59):
And they're walking past andthey see this stand, you know,
with a, I don't know, mighthave a Formula One car on it
or something like that
if the engineering students are there,
or a flight simulator,
or a, you know, virtualreality headset showing them
the universe, you know, whichis what we've taken along.
And then they basically comealong and they have a goal
and then, they get to have a chat
(22:20):
to some of the researchers.
But that's an interventionwhere you interact with people
that weren't expecting you to be there.
You know, they didn'thave to make an effort
to go to your event, you go to them.
And that's another wayof doing these things
that I think is quite important.
(22:40):
And I think universities,and picking up your point
about what to do in universitiesand university buildings,
it's like having buildingsthat are themselves,
we talked about the First Light Pavilion,
the new building at Jodrell,and how wonderful it is,
and how amazing it lookseven from the outside.
And then, from the inside it'sa different experience again.
(23:01):
And that, you know, Ithink that is, you know,
that should carry across
into as many universitybuildings as you can,
on Campus as well, becausethat excitement of seeing
the structure and then, you know,
being able to go inside and find out
(23:22):
what's going on in there is I think
really, really crucial, actually.
And you do see there are nice buildings
and there are less nice buildings.
- And sometimes you don't needa building at all, actually,
to create that sort of sense of place.
One of the interestingprojects we've just finished is
at Brighton University,a new academic building
at the Business School.
But the idea behind it was tomake it a part of Brighton.
(23:46):
So, that sense of placethat you were talking
about was really importantfor community involvement
and connection, so we tookthe idea of the character
of Brighton beingartistic, and a bit punky,
and a bit anarchic, and Brighton Pier
and that sense of fun and activity.
And then, the idea of the murmurations,
(24:08):
the starlings over BrightonPier, which I'm sure you're
very familiar with, as scientists,about the state of flux.
And we tried to interpretthat in the facade
so that the facade represented this sense
of change using differenttile types and finishes
and reflectivity, whereasthe lower levels was
(24:31):
all about the sense of funand activity at Brighton Pier.
So, it was quite an interesting project.
- But you can never tell howpeople are going to react
to something and how they're going to
then create their ownexperience, you know,
engagement with the space.
And so it's always a littlebit of a, you know, I think,
all of the things I say,often said is we have
(24:54):
to create spaces wherethese moments can happen,
but you can't make them happen. (laughs)
You've got to sort of try and,
to fill us, you know, putall the ingredients there
and then people createtheir own encounters.
And, you know, and all ofthe things I really love,
kind of walking around Bluedot,
not quite with a paper bag over my head,
but people don't recognise me
(25:15):
as much as they recognise Tim
because I haven't been on telly.
But I love walking aboutand then you see families
or, you know, people justencountering experiments,
or somebody's makingrockets out of pop bottles,
or you see one of your colleagues
who in, you know, normal times,
(25:35):
is standing there givinga lecture, you know,
being questioned quite(laughs) assiduously
by a group of kids with sparkly hair
or something and you just think,
"Oh, that's really nice," sothat you have that sense of,
well, you've facilitated peoplecreating their own moments.
You know, it's quite aprivilege to be able, you know,
(25:58):
to see it happening.- It's amazing.
(energetic music)
I remember coming asa boy to Jodrell Bank,
my hometown's not far away,
and getting a little ticker tape,
remember that souvenir.
- Everybody mentions that,Julian, everybody mentions that.
The ticker tape.
(26:19):
- Isn't it amazing, the ticker tape?
- Yeah.
- These sort of, that experienceis still there, isn't it?
It's been really, really interesting.
Thank you very much bothof you for those insights
and for those stories.
It's a delight for me to have worked
on those projects with youboth and it's been a privilege
(26:42):
to get about learning as well.
And I'm hoping, Tim, thatyou might just reveal
about the aliens right at the last points,
but come in now if youwish to say anything,
otherwise, all for me
to say thank you very, very much indeed.
It's been lovely to talk andthank you all for listening.
(27:05):
You've been listening to,I feel like I'm on Radio 4.
You've been listening toHassell Talks with me,
Julian Gitsham, andplease, do keep an eye out
for more episodes coming soon.
We've had some terrific reviewsbeing left for the podcast,
so thank you to our listeners for those.
And just finally, subscribingand leaving us a review
(27:25):
or rating helps us get out there,
and shares the fantasticinsights that we've heard today
that we are gathering fromacross our network of designers,
researchers, and strategists.
So, don't forget, you canfind more about our work
and insights at hassellstudio.com.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent
and Annie Scapetis, withthanks to One Fine Play.
(27:48):
Thank you, and goodnight.
(energetic music)
(energetic music)- From Hassell,
an award-winning, multi-disciplinaryglobal design practise,
this is Hassell Talks.
Hello, I'm Julian Gitsham.
I'm an architect and Iwork in our London Studio.
Universities are so excitingbecause they epitomise
the state of flux the studentsare in and the process
of change during their time studying
(00:20):
and experiencing life and learning
in their chosen city or campus.
They also, very often launchpeople into their chosen fields
and create a pathway fora role in the future.
I often think it's a privilege to be able
to design educational spacesand to be able to work
with great academic minds, enthusiastic
and committed students, and to help shape
(00:41):
the problem solvers of the future.
If you haven't stepped footinto a university campus
in a while, you won't realisethe enormous shifts going on
inside educationalinstitutions around the world.
Long before COVID, there was a sense
from our university clientsand education collaborators
that we were talking to thatgreater change was needed
to reflect the extraordinary times
(01:03):
that we're living through, to help solve
the biggest challenges theworld is currently facing,
and to change the preconceptions
of what a universitycampus is, and could be,
designing for a completelynew generation of thinkers.
In the real world, everythingis mingled together.
Problems and challenges aren't definable
to one issue or source.
And so, how do we take these sometimes
(01:25):
very established institutionsand use design to help them?
I'd like to explore today,interdisciplinary approaches
to education with benefitsand designing environments
around problem-solvingrather than disciplines,
and the challenges to, androle of equality inclusion
in areas like science,technology, engineering,
(01:45):
and mathematics, and howgood design can create
and facilitate inclusive, innovative,
and problem-solving campuses.
And I have with me two guestswho have, over the years,
never fails to inspire me asinnovators and communicators
of exactly this, of crossingthe thresholds of thinking
and thinking big.
So, I'm delighted towelcome Teresa Anderson
(02:07):
and Tim O'Brien to the conversation.
If those names soundfamiliar, it's because Teresa
and Tim are the team behind the Music,
Science and Culture eventat the Bluedot Festival.
Bluedot takes place atJodrell Bank Observatory
and Discovery Centre in Cheshire, England,
and attracts headline actslike Bjork, Underworld,
Goldfrapp, The Flaming Lips,
(02:28):
Chemical Brothers, and Kraftwerk.
Teresa Anderson MBE is a Britishphysicist and the director
of the University ofManchester's Discovery Centre
at Jodrell Bank.
She has a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering
and a Master's in Fine Art.
She's a professor at theUniversity of Manchester
and has until recently, been the Chair
(02:49):
of the Daphne Jackson Trust,which provides fellowships
to scientists, technologists,engineers, and mathematicians
to return them to theircareers after a career break
of over two years taken for family,
caring, or health reasons.
Tim O'Brien is anastrophysicist and a professor
at the University of Manchester's School
of Physics and Astronomy.
(03:10):
He is Associate Directorof Jodrell Bank Centre
for Astrophysics, and I'm delighted
that they are able to join me, welcome.
- I should probably just declarean interest at this point
because Tim and I are marriedto each other, (giggles)
which we haven't yet said.
We're a husband and wifeteam and we do quite a lot,
you know, of weird andwacky things together,
like, for example, weirdevents at Jodrell Bank and,
(03:32):
you know, making JodrellBank a World Heritage site
and things.
One of the things we-
- Yeah, small things like that.
- Yeah, little things like that.
And one of the things thatwe are very interested in,
and it's because we've bothgot science backgrounds,
massive science backgroundsis the fact that
as far as we're concerned,science is part of culture,
but people who are kind of moresteeped in the culture side
(03:54):
of things don't seem tosee science like that,
so you end up, you know,that I blame CP Snow
with his flipping two-culturesthing for a lot of this
because, you know, a lot of people
who don't have a science background think
that science is something different,
when as far as we are concerned,
it's, you know, it's arealm of human endeavour.
It takes creativity, a lotof grit, a lot of patience,
(04:18):
diligence, you know,discipline, all of those things
that everything takes ifyou're going to be good at it.
So, we wanted to sort of, you know,
express that and explore that
with as many people as possible and people
who are interested inculture, props a bit,
I don't know if it'sintimidated by science,
(04:39):
but, you know, can't find a root in,
so we wanted to just, you know, take down
the barriers a bit and have a bit of fun,
obviously, (chuckles) because it is fun.
- Come and have some fun
and sort of learn something, as well.
- Mm, nice.- Yes.
- It is fun, it is fun.
And I loved your quoteabout "Strange beasts."
(04:59):
It being a strange beast andthat combination of culture,
and music, and science.
- Still, people don't get it.
You know, people still say,"Well, is it an arts festival,
or is it a science festival,or is it a music festival?"
It's like, well, it's everything.
It's a mix of everything andit still defies categorization.
- No, I think it's a festivalof creativity really,
(05:20):
in a sense, you know, we talkabout the creative sector
and generally, that'ssome sort of shorthand for
often, sort of arts, andculture, and like we were saying,
TV and film and all these sorts of things.
And, of course, they'reincredibly important,
but it somehow, you know,
seems to almost exclude the science
(05:41):
and engineering side of things,which are equally creative
in their own way, you know,
You couldn't do scientificresearch without being creative.
You're creating new knowledge.
And so, actually, our sort ofview is that it's not the case
that one of these things ismore important than the other.
They work together, actually.
(06:03):
You know, you couldn't have bands like,
I don't know, Kraftwerkor something like that,
which are completely reliant
on synthesisers and pioneersin electronic music.
Of course, that's completelybased on engineering
and the scientific understandingof how music works.
So, I think that's how we're feeling is
just to get people together in a space,
(06:26):
whether they're artists,musicians, scientists, engineers,
whatever, and just share our sort of view,
and as Teresa have a joy in it, (chuckles)
what we're doing really andour joy of understanding
the planet and our place in the universe.
- The other thing that'squite interesting is
that we, you know, mix people up, I mean.
(06:47):
So, I mean, when we had Kraftwerk,
for example, we had an event
after the Kraftwerk's performance
when Tim, in collaboration with them,
and with their permissionand they were in the room,
in the same room, it was like2000 people in a big tent.
Tim bounced their music offthe surface of the moon.
Now, is that science, yes.
(07:07):
Is it technology, yes.
Is it art, yes.
Is it music, yes.
Was it a big collective experience, yes.
Did we all cheer, yes!
When it came back, it was just,you know, a fantastic moment
and that's kind of what we're about,
those sort of moments of crossover,
and connection, and celebration.
- Yes, I think that's why Iwas so particularly interested
(07:31):
in it in terms of the learning environment
and how we translate that into, you know,
the next generation of thinkers.
So, Bluedot has obviously gota huge range of people coming
to it, and you also have ahuge range of people coming
to the Discovery Centre,starting with the very young,
(07:52):
primary or preschool age.
And I think I'm sort ofinterested in if you,
you said something, Teresa,
earlier about how somepeople still don't get it,
how they want to categorise it.
And that's the brilliantthing about it is you can't.
- Just sort of thinking a bitmore than about the students
(08:16):
that you both are workingwith and so those on Campus
at Manchester University andthose coming and researching,
and those professionalsand academics working
at Jodrell Bank, what do youthink that we could bring
to those environments tomake them work even better?
(08:40):
Because a lot of the workthat we're now trying to do
when you designing spaces for research is
to not have categorization, to make sure
that it's as interdisciplinaryas possible, basically.
So you're not having any silos.
And I'm wondering what wecan bring to that thinking
(09:02):
that we might be able tolearn from these experiences
that you've had.
- In a way, you need all these things.
You need silos and youneed interdisciplinary.
I don't think you can getout because to make progress
in a particular field, youdo need to immerse yourself
(09:22):
in that field and you need tosurround yourself with people
who are also working in that field
and are experts in that field.
You're not going to makeprogress if you only talk
to people from outside of your field.
But equally, if you are only to talk
to people inside your field,you're going to miss out
on different ways of doing things,
different approaches, different questions.
(09:44):
So, it's quite, I mean, it'sa difficult answer, isn't it?
Because you are right,interdisciplinary is important,
but don't, you know, we shouldn't forget
that people need quiet spaces,
they need spaces to bewith, you know, themselves
and with their thoughts, aswell as with other people.
But then having somespaces where you intersect,
(10:06):
where you clearly can workwith the people who are
the experts in the exactthing you're working on.
I mean we're doing a course at the moment
for undergraduates at Manchester.
We've got an area of the university called
the University College ofInterdisciplinary Learning,
UCIL and its aim isactually to put on courses
(10:27):
that are open to studentsfrom across the University.
So students are given anexperience of a subject outside
of their primary field of thestudy and so we're, myself,
Mike Garrett, who's inJodrell as well, a biologist
and a person working inculture and the media,
(10:49):
have developed a courseon aliens, basically.
So, alien life, extraterrestrial life.
And it's interdisciplinaryfrom the outset because it is
the, that idea that we useour radio telescopes to search
for extraterrestrial signals, we do.
We, just in case extraterrestrialsare sending us messages,
(11:11):
it would be remiss ofus not to be looking.
So, we do not.(Julian laughs)
But, and we haven't found any yet.
I can't announce that onyour podcast, I'm afraid.
(speakers talking andlaughing over each other)
This is just like lettingyou know straight off,
you're not getting an exclusive,
but we haven't yet found any.
We could, right, there could,
(11:33):
there could easily beextraterrestrials out there.
So, there's a whole areaof science that, you know,
has physics, and astrophysics,
and it has technicalengineering aspects to it,
searching for extraterrestrials.
It then spills over into biology.
What is life anyway?
What sort of extraterrestriallife might exist?
What's the requirements for light?
(11:54):
But then it has thiswhole cultural dimension,
how do we feel about,
what do we mean byaliens, extraterrestrials?
How do we, how are theyrepresented in literature,
in film, and so on?
And so that course is veryinteresting, you know, for us.
We get students from acrossthe University taking it,
(12:16):
and it's all online, andit's been very popular
and I think we've reallyenjoyed teaching it and hearing
from people with thesedifferent perspectives.
(energetic music)
- But I think with the FirstLight project, that place,
everybody that I've spokento and my own experience
(12:37):
of it as well, is thatpeople will, hopefully,
turn up and go, "Goodgrief, wow, this is amazing.
You know, what a place, Inever thought this was here."
You know, is that, how you...
Hopefully, was that yourvision for the project and is
that kind of in the context of this sort
(12:57):
of learning experience?
- Yeah, I think that's, we both decided
that's what we wanted.
And it's a challenge atJodrell because at Jodrell,
we have the Lovell Telescope,the grade one listed, amazing,
massive icon of science.
And to create something, youknow, people, get off a couch
or out of a car and go, "Wow,"and see it from the hills,
(13:19):
and what have you.
And so to have somethingelse, another structure
at the site, that doesn'tcompete with the Lovell,
that actually, you know,is in the same vein,
it's about humanity's relationshipwith the sky is amazing.
And every person I'vetaken to show them around
so far has said, "Wow,"they've said, "Wow."
(13:41):
Every single person has walked up-
- Fantastic.
- The little approach that we'vegot between the two hedges.
There's a little bit of a reveal,let's face it, at the end,
and everybody's gone-
- Yes.- "Wow, that's amazing,"
and then when they get inside,
there's another "Wow" becauseof that amazing window,
that's the meridian line,that's the internal sundial
within the building, you know,
(14:02):
those structure like Newgrange,and it's in that tradition.
And in fact, it's reallyfunny, we had a meeting
of the World Heritage SiteSteering Group, and you know,
people came from UNESCO and what have you,
and we took them to see itand they all went, "Wow."
And then, because theyknow about the Heritage,
one of them said, "Oh, myGod, it's like Newgrange."
(14:26):
You know, and they suddenly came out
with all these archaeological,
historical, millennia-oldreferences to these structures
that connect to thesky, and that's what Tim
and I really thought at thestart when we were writing
the funding bids, writingthe spare, everything.
That's what we'd asked for, so yeah,
we're delighted with it, yeah.
(14:47):
- Yeah, amazing, isn'tit a brilliant example
of that combination of culture and history
and science together?
All working together and just, you know,
creating that experience?
So, I suppose that there's,it's interesting, isn't it
that the whole JodrellBank place and site,
(15:11):
and World Heritage site?
Do you bring students,undergraduates, post-grads,
early career researchers, etcetera, to the site as often?
I mean, I'm sure they...
Do they study much on?
- Yeah, undergraduatescome out in the first week
you know, when they arrive at university,
(15:32):
They have a special sortof visit to see the place,
basically, so there'sbuses that bring people out
to have a tour around.
But then, and, of course,they actually use it
as part of their studies,so there's both, you know,
as they go through in a degree in physics,
they use the telescopes atJodrell remotely, initially.
So over a viral webinterface, they can use one
(15:54):
of our telescopes here andthen we bring them out to use
the telescopes personally.
So, they come and visitlater in their degree.
And then, of course, theresearchers use it all the time.
So, we use, you know,
You don't have to be ata telescope to use it.
I mean, you know, I usetelescopes on spacecraft,
(16:14):
and rather sadly, I don't get to go
to the spacecraft to use them. (laughs)
So, we actually make a specialpoint for the research group
that makes the most useof the Lovell Telescope,
which is the Pulsar Group.
They actually come out toJodrell once a week, specially.
And the only reason they alluse it to doing that, in fact,
(16:34):
was so that they could see the Telescope
that takes the data withwhich they were working.
Otherwise, we could havejust left them in Manchester
on Campus and they couldhave downloaded the data
and gone on with it.
But we felt it was important for them
to have that connection.
And it is an emotional connection as well
with the telescope, you know?
(16:55):
- We also have Masterstudents coming in from School
of Arts, Languages, and Cultures now.
So, the Master's studentsin Cultural Practise come
and do internships with us.
And since we've, you know,created this Centre, and Bluedot,
and what have you, and alsothe World Heritage site,
so we now, you know, arebeing interdisciplinary
(17:18):
(laughs) in our contributionto the post-grad research
and practise that's going on.
So it's definitely growing, I think.
- It's really interesting.
Now, do you think thatthere's a place for bringing
that idea, that concept, to the Campus?
(17:39):
So, almost the reverse of art.
I mean, you talked toLisa also in the past
about that wow moments andthat inspiration that you need,
and I wondered what you meant by that
when you spoke about that?
Was that about-- Yeah, so-
- An experience, or anemotion, or a place?
- Yes, I think it's aboutemotion because I think
(18:00):
the thing is now more than ever,
information's availableeverywhere (laughs)
and you know, really,
Education isn't really aboutdelivering information,
it's about developing skills.
And it is partly aboutimparting what's understood
in your field, but the thingis that people are only going
(18:24):
to learn and engage withwhatever they're interested in.
If they care about it, if theyhave a "Wow that's amazing,"
or "Oh, that's funny," or, "I'mreally curious about that,"
or, you know, this sortof emotional moment starts
the movement towardsinvestigation and what have you.
And we always say, you know,if you can get a kid to say,
(18:47):
"Well, why is the sky blue?"
You know, the minutethey ask that question,
that makes them a scientist, effectively.
You know, that's what science is about.
It's about being curiousand taking responsibility
for your own exploration of it.
But people only do that if they care.
- Yes.- And they only care
if it's exciting, or it'sintriguing, you know,
(19:09):
or annoying, or whatever,and those are all emotions.
It's about engaging people as,you know, as a whole person,
not just a brain.
- We've been doing a lot of work
in Martin University MasterPlanning where we're trying
to bring interventions andrelationships between culture,
perhaps in the city.
You're bringing aprogramme of events aligned
(19:31):
with the universities togetherso that you are creating
the festivals there andemotional experiences there
rather than just a bunch of buildings.
And I wondered what you thought
about whether you could reversethat, the idea of Bluedot,
(19:52):
but in a more campus-based experience?
- I think it's got to have, I think,
one of the things about Jodrell, though,
is its sense of place.
And the fact that thesite is dominated by huge,
massive radio telescopes,which is a very weird thing,
you know, just createsa certain experience.
(20:13):
And I mean we do do-- Yes.
- You know, Bluedot,microdots as we call them,
in urban environment to that,
and they have a different character.
And the University actually has lots
of other little festivals around.
You know, there's a sustainability one
and there's various other things
that I think one of thethings that you have
(20:33):
to remember is there's asort of authenticity, really,
that is to do with a sense of place.
And getting that tone is quitean interesting challenge.
- I mean, it just depends-- Yes.
- On your, like Teresa says,I think having something
like Jodrell has its own particular impact
because of the location,because, you know, it's very tied
(20:55):
into that location and the giant telescope
that's looking out intospace while people are there.
I think that's whatpeople love about that.
But equally, you couldhave an event in the city
and then you get a differentgroup of people coming along.
So, yeah, the University has acommunity festival where it's
in one of the university buildings
and local residents can comein and find out what's going on
(21:16):
in those buildings.
We did a...
We set up a science engagement event,
it's called ScienceX a few years ago
that's been very successful.
And it's in the trafficcentre, the big shopping centre
in Manchester, or just outin Trafford Park, just-
- It was Tim's idea actually.- Yeah.
(Tim and Teresa laughing)
(21:37):
- You like your trafficcentres, don't you, Tim?
- So, it's a bit busy,you know, that's a sign.
That's, I know, a faculty for the Science
and Engineering Facultyand we get a whole bunch
of researchers and, you know,
undergraduate postgraduatestudents, researchers,
and they go into the shopping centre
and they set up stallswithin the shopping centre,
and we basically capture peoplethat are doing the shopping.
(21:59):
And they're walking past andthey see this stand, you know,
with a, I don't know, mighthave a Formula One car on it
or something like that
if the engineering students are there,
or a flight simulator,
or a, you know, virtualreality headset showing them
the universe, you know, whichis what we've taken along.
And then they basically comealong and they have a goal
and then, they get to have a chat
(22:20):
to some of the researchers.
But that's an interventionwhere you interact with people
that weren't expecting you to be there.
You know, they didn'thave to make an effort
to go to your event, you go to them.
And that's another wayof doing these things
that I think is quite important.
(22:40):
And I think universities,and picking up your point
about what to do in universitiesand university buildings,
it's like having buildingsthat are themselves,
we talked about the First Light Pavilion,
the new building at Jodrell,and how wonderful it is,
and how amazing it lookseven from the outside.
And then, from the inside it'sa different experience again.
(23:01):
And that, you know, Ithink that is, you know,
that should carry across
into as many universitybuildings as you can,
on Campus as well, becausethat excitement of seeing
the structure and then, you know,
being able to go inside and find out
(23:22):
what's going on in there is I think
really, really crucial, actually.
And you do see there are nice buildings
and there are less nice buildings.
- And sometimes you don't needa building at all, actually,
to create that sort of sense of place.
One of the interestingprojects we've just finished is
at Brighton University,a new academic building
at the Business School.
But the idea behind it was tomake it a part of Brighton.
(23:46):
So, that sense of placethat you were talking
about was really importantfor community involvement
and connection, so we tookthe idea of the character
of Brighton beingartistic, and a bit punky,
and a bit anarchic, and Brighton Pier
and that sense of fun and activity.
And then, the idea of the murmurations,
(24:08):
the starlings over BrightonPier, which I'm sure you're
very familiar with, as scientists,about the state of flux.
And we tried to interpretthat in the facade
so that the facade represented this sense
of change using differenttile types and finishes
and reflectivity, whereasthe lower levels was
(24:31):
all about the sense of funand activity at Brighton Pier.
So, it was quite an interesting project.
- But you can never tell howpeople are going to react
to something and how they're going to
then create their ownexperience, you know,
engagement with the space.
And so it's always a littlebit of a, you know, I think,
all of the things I say,often said is we have
(24:54):
to create spaces wherethese moments can happen,
but you can't make them happen. (laughs)
You've got to sort of try and,
to fill us, you know, putall the ingredients there
and then people createtheir own encounters.
And, you know, and all ofthe things I really love,
kind of walking around Bluedot,
not quite with a paper bag over my head,
but people don't recognise me
(25:15):
as much as they recognise Tim
because I haven't been on telly.
But I love walking aboutand then you see families
or, you know, people justencountering experiments,
or somebody's makingrockets out of pop bottles,
or you see one of your colleagues
who in, you know, normal times,
(25:35):
is standing there givinga lecture, you know,
being questioned quite(laughs) assiduously
by a group of kids with sparkly hair
or something and you just think,
"Oh, that's really nice," sothat you have that sense of,
well, you've facilitated peoplecreating their own moments.
You know, it's quite aprivilege to be able, you know,
(25:58):
to see it happening.- It's amazing.
(energetic music)
I remember coming asa boy to Jodrell Bank,
my hometown's not far away,
and getting a little ticker tape,
remember that souvenir.
- Everybody mentions that,Julian, everybody mentions that.
The ticker tape.
(26:19):
- Isn't it amazing, the ticker tape?
- Yeah.
- These sort of, that experienceis still there, isn't it?
It's been really, really interesting.
Thank you very much bothof you for those insights
and for those stories.
It's a delight for me to have worked
on those projects with youboth and it's been a privilege
(26:42):
to get about learning as well.
And I'm hoping, Tim, thatyou might just reveal
about the aliens right at the last points,
but come in now if youwish to say anything,
otherwise, all for me
to say thank you very, very much indeed.
It's been lovely to talk andthank you all for listening.
(27:05):
You've been listening to,I feel like I'm on Radio 4.
You've been listening toHassell Talks with me,
Julian Gitsham, andplease, do keep an eye out
for more episodes coming soon.
We've had some terrific reviewsbeing left for the podcast,
so thank you to our listeners for those.
And just finally, subscribingand leaving us a review
(27:25):
or rating helps us get out there,
and shares the fantasticinsights that we've heard today
that we are gathering fromacross our network of designers,
researchers, and strategists.
So, don't forget, you canfind more about our work
and insights at hassellstudio.com.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent
and Annie Scapetis, withthanks to One Fine Play.
(27:48):
Thank you, and goodnight.
(energetic music)
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