Are you ready for an 'Epic Yarn'?
Listening lies at the heart of so much of what designers do, but listening to what Country and Culture is telling us means connecting deeply and meaningfully with the land and its people.
How well are designers — and organisations, individuals and communities — listening to these voices?
Together with Landscape Architect Hannah Galloway, we wanted to explore the topic of ‘Listening’ with First Nations Consultant, Cultural Advisor and Storyteller Kat Rodwell.
In Part 1 of this 'Epic Yarn', Kat and Hannah discuss the‘eggshells’ of engagement — the role of understanding that each project, situation and engagement is a unique opportunity to understand the land from the beginning. They explore the nuances of cultural protocol and etiquette, and the systems of Country that still speak loudly — even in crowded city centres — if we stop to listen.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone wanting to deepen their understanding and to recalibrate how they listen to the voices of Country and Culture. In it, you'll hear the practical ways that individuals and organisations can better connect, support, and learn.
Recorded on Lands of the Noongar Whadjuk people and the Wadawurrung people. Produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people.
We pay our respects to the original custodians of the lands where we practice, and acknowledge their unique ability to care for country and their deep spiritual connection to it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
(birds chirping)
- From global design practise, Hassell,
this is "Hassell Talks".
Welcome back.
I'm Hannah Galloway.
I'm a landscape architectin Hassell, Perth Studio,
(00:22):
and I'm your host this episode.
I'm joined by Kat Rodwell.
Kat's a First Nationsconsultant, cultural advisor,
and storyteller. And, Katis someone we at Hassell
and many organisations turn to on projects
to educate and guide us onour journey to knowledge.
Where I am, I'd say kaya, which is hello.
(00:43):
I'd say Kat, welcome, which is Wanju,
and that's in Noongar language.
- Yuma, which is helloin Ngunnawal country.
But, I'm in Weraerai country.
- Thank you.
So, before we go any further,
and before we make anyfurther introductions,
which I can't wait to do,
I'd just like to acknowledge and respect
the Noongar Whadjuk people
(01:04):
and the Weraerai peopleas the original custodians
of the land on wherewe are recording today,
and acknowledge their uniqueability to care for country
and their deep spiritual connection to it.
We honour elders past,
present, and emerging,
whose knowledge and wisdom has
and will ensure thecontinuation of cultures
and traditional practises.
(01:25):
Hi, Kat, how are you?
And, who are you?
And can you tell us a littlebit about you, yourself?
- Yuma. (laughing)
I love "who are you?"
And, I don't know half the time who I am.
I'm still learning who I am.
I'm guided by ancestors of past,
and all the elders from past,
and elders today.
It's that I'm so luckythat I'm guided by them
(01:46):
in everything I do,
which is amazing.
Where do I start?
Well, proud Ngunnawal woman.
Grew up on Dharwalcountry out in La Perouse,
as everybody would say,
swimming with anything andeverything in the ocean.
I'm a water baby, absolute water baby,
and a shark fanatic I should say.
(02:08):
- Yeah, and thank you somuch for joining us today
and it is lovely to see you again.
- Well, we're going to havean epic yarn, I call this.
And, I always say...
I always start off these bysaying let's get comfortable
with being uncomfortable
and that means me as well.
And, we walk this together.
So, the questions that we talk about,
it means that let's be truthful,
(02:30):
that raw truth telling,
and this is what we're going to do today.
- Kat and myself haveworked together before.
We went back in 2020, 2021,
deep in the midst of COVID.
So, we've only ever spoken online.
I've never actually met you in person
because I'm over in Perthand you are over in Victoria.
So if you could just explainto us a little bit, Kat,
(02:52):
about what it is that you do.
- A lot.
In a nutshell,
I suppose what I do isI act as a go between,
or the old-fashioned sifting.
You put your flower in andsift through everything,
all the information soit comes out properly.
I help to work with traditional owners,
(03:15):
elders and community,
work with projects andwork with architects
and design teams and otherfacets of that project
to make sure that their voice is heard,
that they have a seat at the table.
And not just the seat every now and then,
(03:35):
that they're like project managers,
that they have the ability to say,
hey, we're not happy with that.
Can you change this?
What about this?
So they're included in their own home,
which is effectively whatthe projects and that are
on someone else's countrythrough in their home.
(03:57):
I also help the projectteams and architects
to be able to understandcountry, the culture,
the protocols, to understand the history,
cultural mitigation,
but also take the teamon a cultural journey.
And when I say that'snot death by PowerPoint,
it's taking them on a journeywhere you can ask any question
(04:20):
you want for fear of saying, oh,
have I asked the wrong question?
Oh my gosh, is she gonna be angry with me?
I'm here to help, I'm here to bridge that,
to make sure that we all work together,
we all walk alongsidetogether so that the outcome
is this beautiful storytellingthrough the building,
(04:40):
through the structure.
And that country hasa voice loud and clear
and that everyone hears it,
sees it, smells it, and can feel it.
The other things I do ishave a look at, as I said,
my Bush Tucker, Bush medicine classes.
So you get to immerse in culture.
And the other part I do
is I fix the mistakes like a sweeper.
(05:00):
I'm good at sweeping, so people say.
So helping people to understand
that it's okay to makemistakes, but work with us.
- Yes.
To just introduce myself as well.
So I am a landscapearchitect with Hassell.
I've been working with Hassell now for,
well, nearly 20 years.
(05:21):
Gosh, is it that long?
I have had the privilegeof during that time
working on sort of somany different projects
in so many different sectors.
And since moving to the Perthoffice over the last 13 years,
all of those have hadwonderful engagement processes
with First Nations people.
So they've ranged from
St. John of God's publicand private hospital,
(05:44):
Perth, Optus Stadium,
Boola Bardip WA Museum,
Roebourne District High School,
which was a wonderful process
and that's ongoing at the moment.
And I've also lectured
and tutored modules with Curtin University
in some of the workthat they've been doing
with the Healing Centre forthe Stolen Generation Mission
(06:05):
out at Wandering.
So I personally have a deeprespect for First Nations people
and a huge interest in cultureand the spiritual connection
to the places that surround us.
And that is where I kind of come from
in regards to those reallyinteresting discussions.
Which leads me, I supposeinto what the intent
(06:28):
of today's chat is all about
is I think for wider contextto people all around the world
who may be listening,
I wanted to first touch onwhy it's so important to have
these conversations and these discussions
with First Nations people in Australia.
As traditional owners,
the cultural connection thatyou've had over thousands
(06:51):
of years with place and theunderstanding of systems
and that spiritual connection
to Australia itself.
I just feel as though it's soimperative and so important
that any change to place orany further understanding of
place is done in a discussionwith First Nations people.
(07:12):
And that helps us as landscape architects
and architects and designers of spaces
for people to better understand the places
and the systems and the spirituality
and the connections tobe able to move forward
together in partnership
and create better spaces for everyone.
(07:33):
What's your understandingof engagement, Kat?
- For me, we talk about the term listening
and this is about engaging.
We need to listen, and for us, our mob,
our people all around Australia
and probably like everyother culture is we listen
not only with your ears but with our eyes,
(07:57):
with what we see, with what we hear,
with what we smell, with what we touch.
That's how we hear.
So it means that we aregrounded with country
because Mother is our country.
She looks after us and welook after Mother in turn.
She nourishes us, we nourish Mother.
(08:18):
So we've got to listen toher with all those senses.
So for me, engaging isusing all those senses
when we speak,
when we talk to our traditional learners,
when we listen to them,
when we listen to our elders
because they're the caretakers of country.
They're the ones that tellus the stories of the past
(08:40):
and bring them to the present.
They're the ones thatshare all the knowledge
of the hundreds and thousands of years.
They're the ones that showus how to live with Mother,
with country, how to learn from country,
how to respect country sothat we can coexist together.
(09:02):
That's engaging.
That's the short version.
- That's so beautifuland so beautifully put.
And so it is a fullsensory immersion in a way.
And I loved...
Somebody once describedit, a traditional owner,
and he described it to me asan exchange of energy as well,
that, that connectionis something that can be
(09:25):
literally felt throughan exchange of energy.
The more people that are in a place,
the more the energy can build up as well,
and the exchange ofenergy between the ground
and the country itself sortof resonates and builds up.
Is that correct?
- Exactly.
So I'm thinking of...
What's the movie withthe blue people, Avatar?
(09:46):
When I was watching Avatar andhow they were talking about
they were all one witheverything they saw,
they were all connectedwith that same energy,
that is the same with us.
And when I saw them,
they were saying that there'sthis energy that the ground,
the trees, the animals, theyall work in sync together.
(10:10):
That's how we feel aboutcountry and the energy.
And when I saw that movie, Iwent, oh wow, bang on, bang on.
That's what it's like,our connection to country,
all those senses.
And you're right, it's like being...
Sometimes the more people we have,
we have at our celebrationsand properties,
you rock concerts.
(10:30):
You're rocking on
and all this energy andbuilds and builds and builds
because you are all sharingthat time, that space,
that moment with everyone
and grounded on country.
Once again, what yousee, hear, smell, touch.
- And I suppose thatif we're understanding
(10:51):
and I suppose taking theexample again from Avatar,
it's just expressing in that way,
all of how natural systems
are all interconnected and interwoven.
And if we change one element
so that as architects and developers
and the sort of sectors that we're in
where you're changing one aspect of it
(11:12):
and it has such a detailedand knock-on effect
to the balance of all of those systems.
So again, it's having these conversations
to go on that journey together
to understand impacts to all, I suppose.
- Yeah, one cannotexist without the other.
That's why we say water forall of us is the giver of life.
(11:34):
And it is for anyone.
Without water we cannot survive.
So that's just an example of it.
So yeah, anything, we all exist.
A famous uncle who'spassed away was saying
he's now in the dreaming,
and he always said we don't own the land,
(11:56):
the land owns us.
Nothing is older than the land.
And that was how it was said.
It was beautifully said.
- It is beautifully said.- That's our connection.
- The different cultural backgrounds
are what makes thesediscussions so fascinating
because it's just a continuousabsorption of learning.
(12:17):
I think that what somepeople might find difficult
is to connect to somethingthat's very natural
in the systems when they're stood
in the middle of centralbusiness district.
Do you know what I mean?
So that you're surrounded with buildings,
the systems are not visible to you,
the connection is not obvious and literal.
I imagine there's still aconnection there for yourself.
(12:38):
And can you explain how youlisten to country still in,
say for example, the city centre?
- Yeah, we call it living culture.
So it's living cultural heritage
because it is seen everywhere.
It is heard everywhere.
We can touch it everywhere.
Unlike like let's just say
(12:58):
where you are from in your country,
give me something that's of...
What's one of your mainbig cultural features
in your country?
What is something everybody knows?
- You can go landscape features,
but if originally from the UK,
you probably end up with somebody saying
The House of Parliament, BigBen. Do you know what I mean?
(13:19):
There'd probably belandmarks or Stonehenge
or something like that.
- Thank you, okay.
So places like that,
our culture, we just touch the ground,
and we'll have artefacts comeup, our middens, et cetera.
The landscape itself is our culture.
(13:40):
So having said that,
we say our culture stilloozes through the cement
and the concrete and everything.
It is still there becauseour connection is so strong,
the spiritual connection.
So another question, thisis building it up to it.
When you fly, you've beeninto Melbourne, I gather.
(14:01):
- Yeah.- Okay.
When you're coming in on the aeroplane,
I think I've asked youthis question before,
you're just about to fly into the airport,
when you're looking down over Melbourne,
what do you really see?
- But I mean when you arethat far up and that high up,
yeah, you see landscape,you see systems, you see...
I see the tops of the hills, the valleys,
(14:23):
and the difference betweenwhere country starts
and city starts and the details are gone.
Like for example,
a landmark that I wasdescribing is not visible
from an aeroplane
but a larger kind oflike geographical region
or whatever is.
- Hmm.
Yeah, because a lot of peoplewill say I see buildings
(14:46):
and not much greeneryand we always use this.
And for me, I see it differently.
It's like an in-built system within us,
our connection tocountry that's spiritual.
I see Immediately I'll go to the walkways,
I'll immediately find abit of green so to speak.
(15:06):
I see beyond below theconcrete jungle so to speak,
because country is stillspeaking through it,
speaking to us.
Sky country, star country,the trees, the wind.
So when I go into places where it's...
In Melbourne for example,
when you walk through and wecall it the Pentridge jail,
(15:28):
which is the bluestone walk piece,
which is just...
Oh, it makes you feel enclosed
but always find thatconnection coming through it.
So usually I get people to stand there
and to close your eyes.
And the first thing is, okay,
everyone's teams to be ableto use ear, listening first,
(15:48):
it's the first thing of connection.
And we take that time to just stop
because Melbournites really don't stop.
They just keep going.
So we say stop, breathe, connect.
So stop, breathe, connect to country,
(16:09):
the first step.
And we say listen, what do you hear?
And when they're reallylistening, it's amazing.
Most will say I can hear the wind.
I can hear some of the wind.
You can hear it sometimesin the trees and the leaves,
(16:30):
and I go, that's ourancestors talking to you,
the wind and the leaves.
Every now and then someone will go,
oh, I can actually hear people walking.
I go, that's good.
Our ancestors are walking with you.
And some will say, depending where we are,
(16:51):
I can hear a bird or two, whichis quite rare in the city.
And I go, how good is that?
Our ancestors are talkingthrough the birds to you.
And I go, okay, what can yousee beyond the buildings?
And some people say the trees
and the movement of the trees swaying.
(17:16):
I can see the sky, sky country.
Doesn't matter where it's blue or black,
you can see it.
I can see the clouds at night.
I can see the stars, star country,
or they'll see some birds fly over,
or sometimes they will seepeople laughing, people talking.
(17:37):
That's the connections all coming through.
They'll see the Birim, the Yarra River.
And I say, okay, what do you smell?
And some people, youget someone who'll go,
oh, all I can smell is the cars and that.
And I go, okay, connect.What can you smell?
And it's quite amusing
(17:58):
because then peopleblock out the car smells
and they start to think ofsome of the food smells.
And I go, okay, what else?
And every now and then someone will go,
I can actually smell some ofthe leaves coming through.
It may not be the eucalyptus leaves
because there's not many left in the city,
(18:20):
but it's the smell of country.
And it's okay if they say Ismell different foods in that.
That's the smell of country as well.
Okay, then we go walk arounda bit and let's have a look.
And when you find someof the trees and that,
I get them to touch becausethat's our ancestors as well.
(18:42):
And the trees are grounding,
they're strong and theirroot system is strong
and connects us to country andwith all the leaves and that,
they can hear and theancestors are talking
and the birds are talking through it,
and then all of a suddenthe branches are there.
We say maybe our ancestorsare there sitting,
they're watching over you.
And then they start to go,
(19:03):
I'm starting to realise there's more depth
to connecting to country,
to what your spiritualconnection is to country.
It's not one dimension.
It's many, many.
And that's why we sayour connection is unique.
It's on many levels.
And where one is affected,
(19:25):
it affects us deeply becausewe say it is our soul,
it is our Mother.
So when Mother is notwell, we're not well.
So that's how we start off with that.
Getting people to have alook at the area they're in,
connecting with what is around them
through the many sensors.
So it's more like paint by numbers.
(19:46):
We're starting to layer the story,
the narratives that you needto know where you are first,
so to speak.
That's the start.
- That is so amazing.
Thank you so much for that.
I just feel as thoughI've been transported.
I was fully immersed in thatand it was just beautiful.
(20:08):
So thank you.
I find that it is aboutreminding ourselves,
and just like we all talkdifferently about wellbeing,
that is part of wellbeing as well.
Just reminding ourselves to stop,
and everything is hurrying by
and we see what's justin front of our noses,
(20:29):
that like you say,
the cars and the fumes and thebuildings and the whatever,
and the people and thebuses and that's there.
It's obvious.
But if we stop for a momentand listen, as you're saying,
I love your description of the layers,
and it is, it's the subtlelayers that are still there,
doesn't matter where you are.
Yeah, beautifully described.
Thank you so much for that.
(20:52):
I just feel a little bit morezen for that discussion there.
So I think that that's so important
as one step of understandingplace and connection to place
and as we are describinglistening to place.
And so I suppose now Ijust wanted to understand
a little bit about how bestto listen to voices as well.
(21:15):
So when I've gone tomany different meetings,
and over here, it's affectionatelytermed as Noongar time
because there should be notimeframe to a discussion.
And Liz, that's the beauty of it,
because it's a huge amount ofrespect that you give somebody
if you dedicate time
(21:38):
and enough time to have that conversation
so that you're not driven by an agenda.
And I'm here till thistime and have to leave then
and we need to discussthis, this, this and this.
It's not about that.
It's about the connection, isn't it?
It's about stopping andlistening and immersing in that.
And that should not bedriven by priorities
(21:59):
other than that conversation.
And there are certainprotocols, aren't there?
When we start a discussion with elders
and with traditional owners.
I wondered if you could justtouch on us for our listeners
just to understand some of those protocols
when we first walk intoa room to start a yarn,
start a discussion.
(22:19):
- Yeah, I'd say first up,
I say to people knowwhose country you are on,
and for people who go,you're in Australia,
yes, the country.
For First Nations people,
we have many countries within Australia
and we say that is...
You could say it's like going into Europe.
(22:41):
You've got many countries within Europe,
that's like our mob here.
Each country is different.
Each country will have theirown protocols, their own laws,
L-O-R-E, that is.
Their own, what you call, a flag.
They could have a totem, not totem pole.
Their own ways of dealing and engaging
(23:02):
and that's important to know first.
So whose country are you on?
You've identified Noongar.
I've identified what Ngunnawal people.
So to know the protocols is,
I always say we need to askpermission to walk on country,
which is the old ways.
In the olden days, way back past,
(23:23):
they would've sent someone forward.
And it's not necessarily you see a gate
or anything like that, goring a doorbell or whatever.
It's country.
We sort of knew where theso-called boundaries were.
We would send a message and go across
and it's different in each mob.
So you'd go there and maybehave a smoke via going,
(23:45):
and you announce you'recoming and you ask permission.
Let's just say I'mcoming from your country
Noongar country to theelders, judicial owners,
and say why we want to,
because sometimes weneed to come on country
to discuss business, to trade,
to arrange marriages,
(24:06):
to celebrate, to have celebrations.
And it was a time where, for example,
giving a gum leaf,
dipping it in water and sucking on it
was saying, I abide by your law.
I come in peace and I willtread lightly on country.
(24:32):
And by them saying, well, comeon in, you're welcome then,
come and share all our resources.
Let's do trade, let'stalk, let's celebrate.
And you then walk throughcountry and you do that trade.
So I still do that practise that,
whether it be a phone call or email,
announcing the intention of the project
(24:53):
and the companies and the people,
asking permission to walkon country and a brief about
what the project's about and where it is.
So therefore, we're startingthat respectful dialogue,
respectful relationship andthey go, cool, that's great.
From there, protocols wouldbe you've got to remember
(25:13):
a lot more people are starting to
engage traditional owners, elders.
So there's that overload.
We call it cultural overload.
So we need to give time.
And you brought it up, we don't sit,
we never used to sitback and go, I'm hungry,
when is our Mother gonna be here,
at 12 o'clock by the sun dial.
(25:36):
I think by 12:10 they should be here,
by 12:30 when the sun'salmost little bit changed.
We're going to eat by this time
and possibly skin a kangaroo by 1:05
according to the sun.
So we don't do that.
As I said, the idea iswe come to yarn, to talk.
(26:02):
It may not be business.
It's an announcement, it's just a talk.
So we got to give time,
and I always say makesure minimum these days,
four weeks, and most will have forms
to fill out to say whatthe project's about,
(26:23):
what we're looking at,
why we need to have that consultation.
And then they may say,
give a few times and dates andthen they'll come back to you
usually and say, well, this suits us.
So it's not about you tellingus what time you wanna meet.
It's about you saying, could we meet?
(26:44):
We would love to talk to you more.
We want to know more aboutyour culture at this time
and this place when it's best for you.
That's that reconciliation,
that's that respectful dialogue happening.
So even in the pre-meeting Iwill usually meet with the team
to give them an overallbackground of the area,
(27:07):
of whose country it is,
just so you're a bit more awareof what to expect as well.
And sometimes I'll giveyou a bit of language.
So on the Werribee Project,
we met with Wadawurrung people,
Wadawurrung TraditionalOwner Aboriginal Corporation.
And we also met at other projects
(27:30):
and we always used a bit oflanguage to start off with.
So on Wadawurrung country, nyurra,
which means sort of like ahello in Wadawurrung language,
and that was respectful.
Traditional owners love that.
And then we might havesaid at the end, kun gadji,
which sort of mean thank you go and peace.
See you later.
Simple things of using a bit of language,
(27:51):
when it's appropriate, use.
We ask permission, whoever is there,
do we call you auntie and uncle?
Is it okay if we do?
Ask permission first.
I always say the term Iwant you all to think about
and keep in mind is two words
and it's gonna help you out a lot.
(28:13):
Ask first.
If you're not sure, ask.
- One of the other thingsI wanted to touch upon
was the fact that walking into a room,
if there are FirstNations people in the room
that haven't necessarily met each other,
I think as consultants we need to remember
that there is thatprocess and that protocol.
(28:35):
We need to just step back for a minute
and let the First Nationspeople in the room
talk about where they're from,
understand their family backgrounds.
Am I correct in that understanding?
Because when I've beenin meetings and things,
it's sort of been my name's such and such,
oh, your surname is X, youmust be from this area,
I know your auntie.
(28:56):
And it's almost like they learneach other's family country
within the discussion to understand
who each other are as partof that cultural protocol.
Am I right in that understanding?
- Yeah, it's like not oneperson makes decisions
in the group.
We are communal
so there's many peoplethat have that decision,
(29:17):
but some groups don't like tomeet together in a meeting.
So we've got to be very wary.
Is it appropriate to have various,
I call them mob
because that's from whatI was taught from mine,
in the same room together.
Is it more respectful tohave separate meetings?
And that's when I say askfirst because some may feel
(29:39):
uncomfortable and that's natural.
So usually when we come in,
I will usually tell eachmob who's going to be there.
So it gives them the opportunityif they want to engage
or if they don't want to.
So when the time happens,
yes, you're right, let them do that.
But a lot of the times,
they may not want to talkabout more family business,
(30:00):
where they're from.
So we say don't presumethey're gonna tell you
where they're from andeverything like that.
They may not want to, butyou give them what they want.
- And it's something that I personally
have never asked of anybody.
It's just sort of allowing,
I suppose if that happensthrough a natural conversation,
(30:20):
just stepping back and lettingthat sort of all occur.
- Yeah, yeah.
Many uncles and aunties, and as I said,
they may not be what you term is by blood,
but as I said, it's very a community.
And that's the funny thing.
We all walk in and go, yeah,I know you, I know you.
I've walked over to Victoriaand they go, I know you.
(30:41):
You are Senate up at theNorthern Territory and ACT.
And they go, oh mygosh, I come to Victoria
and there's Senate Street everywhere.
They go, didn't know we were here.
So yeah.
- When we're talking aboutpeople and understanding people
and mediation within aspace and reading the room
and all of those things,
I think one thing that'ssometimes forefront
(31:03):
in people's mind who do care,
they do care as a professionalwalking into this space,
as a designer and architect or whoever,
that we don't want to offend.
We don't wanna say the wrong thing.
We are sometimes nervous andtreading on eggshells as such
that you say something,
(31:23):
a cultural faux pas,you get something wrong.
Should we be nervous orshould we be conscious?
But truth tell,
I think that's a term we've used before,
so that we can then learn from each other.
And if it's an open andauthentic conversation,
we can help each otherlearn the better way
through the conversation.
(31:44):
- Exactly.
Look, as I said, when wecame down and sat together,
the reason why we talkabout yarning circles,
which run exactly 360 degrees,
and it's the thing ofwe're facing each other.
There's no one behind our backs
where the truth telling can come forward.
That's how we want to sit with you.
By saying you won't know everything.
(32:06):
We won't know everything.
So we say don't walk on eggshells
because you're holding back.
If you really want to learn something,
ask and if it is wrongthe way you're putting it,
then we will talk through it.
We'll tell you but not go,
nope, we're not talking to anymore.
You can't pronounce that right.
That's not how it goes.
(32:27):
When we're on thislearning journey together,
we walk together,
it means, yeah, raw truth telling.
Ask those questionsbecause it's the only way
we're going to move forward.
When we have our epic yarns
or we have our code desire side sessions,
you are brought into that conversation,
(32:48):
whereas in the past,people keep you out of it.
You get here at third hand,
we bring you into that conversation
where you are there witheveryone that needs to be there
where you are free in asafe culturally environment
to ask those questions.
You mightn't get the answer you want,
but it's a culturally safespace because we set that scene,
(33:12):
we invite you into the conversation.
So please ask those questions
and don't feel afraid to do so.
When I do my once upon the answer series,
I do 'em online becausethen people can type
in their questions because they feel
more comfortable doing that way.
At the same time, if you are in a meeting,
(33:37):
then you can probably givequestions ahead of time as well
if you feel that uncomfortable.
So preempt us,
these are the questionswe really want to know.
- So one thing I wanted to ask
was by having these discussions
and trying to promote engagement,
which is so important,
is there a risk thatwe're not going to have
(33:57):
with the timelines of many projects,
enough people to engage with?Do you know what I mean?
Like, people are becoming so stretched
because we've got key elders
and key kind of traditionalowners that are are willing
and happy to have these conversations
and I, you know...
(34:20):
There's a concern that witheverybody wanting to do it
and we're all working andmoving in the right direction
and it's all a hundred percent positive.
How are we perceiving this working
in the future when we've got yeah,
all of these projectsgoing at the same time
and everybody wanting to meet and talk
and yarn and things.
We are gonna get burnoutfrom a lot of people.
(34:43):
Yeah.
- You already are, it's overload.
You gotta remember a lotof our younger ones are not
stepping up to traditionalways anymore because of money.
When I was speaking to mobs about this,
I was giving 'em an idea ofhow we can try to help them
and what the companies can do to help
(35:04):
to sort of speed thingsup but also to make sure
to sort of lessen the cultural overload,
cultural burnout.
- Yeah and I think thatpart of asking that question
is understanding
that when we have spoken
with different,
whether it be aboriginal consultancy
(35:26):
and engagement firms or whether it be
just with elders or respected members.
It's all about having more andmore and more conversations
as an engagement earlier,
continuing the conversation,
having many touchpoints throughout
so that we're all on the journey together.
But that's adding more load,
(35:46):
that's adding more requirementfor kind of having many,
many more conversations.
And yeah, there is just that concern
of how we're gonna manage that
within regards to not getting burnout
within the cultural groups
and just having somebody from nine to five
having to meet, meet, meet, meet, meet.
(36:07):
- One hand it's great tosee a lot more projects
and people engaging us tobe part of the projects
and to want to put cultural narratives
and elements within them.
But on the other hand,
we're three 4% of the population.
It's hard because there'sthat cultural overload.
(36:28):
A lot of our elders cannot cope
with everyone's demandsof time and everything.
It means still engage where you can,
be reasonable about the timeframes,
be reasonable about the requests,
be reasonable about ifyou would like language,
(36:49):
the protocols that you haveto go through about that.
Does the language fit the project?
A lot of us are saying,
why are we just naming roomsand doors our language?
It's disrespectful, it gives no reverence.
Look at phrases and don't forget,
boundaries sometimes change,
(37:10):
which is what happened over here
when we had the RAP boundaries change.
So sometimes that language does not belong
in that country now.
So, and the other thing is we were saying,
well what can we do?
And this is from sometraditional owner groups
were asking and were saying that perhaps
can your company donate something?
(37:31):
We're not talking about money.
How about you have experts in IT,
in admin, in accounting, et cetera.
Can you donate 10 hoursof your accounting time,
of your it time to thesegroups to help 'em out serve?
All of that gets sorted andgives the elders more time to do
(37:52):
these engagement processes.
A lot of our elders whodo this within rigid
aboriginal parties,
native title holders andis people tend to think,
oh, they must be earninga fortune and they're not.
And that's the sad part.
And the other part is,
you gotta remember there's elders too
(38:15):
that may not know all theknowledge you require.
Stolen generation comes into it.
You gotta remember it wasn't that long ago
that were then allowedto speak our language.
We were allowed to share our culture,
our stories.
So pre-colonization,
(38:35):
we had 300 and somethingdifferent languages
and we passed down these stories
and we shared all of this responsibility.
Colonisation.
We were being eradicated
and that's the term, eradicated.
So we weren't allowedto speak our language,
we weren't allowed totalk about our culture.
We were taken away.
(38:57):
We were not stolen,
we were kidnapped andtaken away from family,
our culture, our comfort,
into assimilate into the white culture.
So a lot of our storiesand language was lost.
And some people tend to think
when they go into these meetings,
come on, you're aboriginal,you're from here,
(39:17):
you must know all these stories
and that we need to know everything.
And we say,
"Please be respectful becausethey may not know that
because what was taken from them."
- So Kat how are you coping?
How are you coping with cultural overload
and what gives you hope?
- For me, I am so lucky,
I'm surrounded by eldersand traditional owners
(39:40):
from all around Australiawhere I do projects,
where when it gets reallytough and very emotional
and I hear stories of country
and how hurtful they canbe or I hear, we call 'em,
"Throwing spears at our back"
or we have people that just cannot
(40:02):
get over that reconciliation bridge
and I have to remain businesslike
but not show too muchemotion where it does hurt.
Because then I'm notspeaking for community.
I can go and talk to my elders,
which is a bonus.
And sit down with them towhat you would call debrief.
(40:23):
But I can sit down and have a yarn
and that's me offloading by saying
I really need to talkthis through this process.
Am I doing the right thing?
Am I still on that right path?
Because as I said,
a lot of people call me a wandering auntie
because I travel all over Australia
(40:44):
and get privy to these stories,
to connections to some ofthese horrific stories.
But I have to tell them
because that's whatthey've asked me to do so.
But I also have to offload them as well
because keeping them inside too much
means that I can't perform or do my role
(41:04):
by speaking for communityon behalf of, sorry,
on behalf of not for community.
It's big and you'll probablyfind a lot of people in my role
don't last.
I mean I've been doing it for a very,
very long time.
Many will come into it thinking, oh,
(41:24):
it's just listening and doing this.
And it's not because you'vegotta have thick skin
because not everyonewants to hear that story.
Not everyone wants to bepart of a cultural journey
and that's okay.
That's okay.
- And it's also exhaustingfor you, I imagine.
Yeah, absolutely exhausting.
- Very.
- Yeah, people tend to think,
(41:45):
one of the biggest thingis people tend to think
we do this for free and we don't
because you may do a session,
but it's all the prepbeforehand or after hand.
Having a conversationor setting up an event
can take something like 20hours just back and forth
with the elders or traditionalowners to set it up.
(42:05):
People don't see the behind the scenes.
When I do my epic yarns,
which I love performing as you would see
it is takes a lot out of you,
but it's the knowledge how youwant to engage the audience.
It does, it's a lot to take in energy-wise
and the fact that peopledon't see your role as worthy
(42:26):
of being paid and paid properly,
which is quite heartbreaking.
Yeah.
- Well totally empathise with the fact
that one of the hardest things to do.
And I think as we grow professionally,
I've found that you learn your skills,
et cetera.
One of the hardest thingsto learn is people.
Dealing with people andeverybody is different.
(42:48):
Everybody has different triggerpoints and like you say,
so learning to be able to beso empathetic in the position
that you must sit in tomediate at some point
between all people in the room
and ensure that a process runs smoothly,
that cultural protocols are understood
and adhered to, that people are protected
(43:09):
as well through processes.
And also, like you say,
there's potentially aftermathof kind of discussions
where you might have to then follow up
and ensure everybody is okay
and like there's so much that must go on
in your brain when you'retrying to read the room
all the time.
And then before and after thatwe don't even kind of always
(43:33):
yeah, it's not transparent.
- Yeah, you get to go home from your job.
I'm in my skin 24/7
and that's the partpeople don't understand.
And if I do somethingwrong within culture,
that's my role, my job gone
because we bush telegraph spreads
(43:53):
and that's pretty hard.
So you've really gotta be mentally,
physically on the ball the whole time
and it does get extremely tiring.
But I love doing this
and I know this is what myancestors have asked me to do,
so I love it.
And I've got Jeff works with me too,
(44:15):
so we bounce off each other'slike brother and sister role,
but just lucky.
And we've got lovelypeople like yourselves
who want to learn.
And I feel very comforted by the fact
that the hope is...
I'm seeing more and more people
like yourselves and architectswho are leading the way
and wanting to participate,
wanting to do things the right way,
(44:36):
wanting to reallyengage, not the tick box,
but do it for the right reasons.
And sometimes, as I said,
the opposite is I see people in my role
who are not in it for the right reason,
which is a shame.
But that balances it out.
Sometimes I go,
that's okay because I knowthere's hope out there,
(44:57):
that there is morepeople going to come up.
- Yeah well you just see somuch of it more occurring
and so much more positivityaround these discussions
and people being passionateand willing to learn
and wanting to be there and share
and take the journey together.
- Yeah, and they're asking more questions.
They feel like they can,
which is amazing.
(45:18):
Like I go onto a work siteand it's really quite funny
where it's one of the big bosses
who's head of a projectwants to meet with me
every two weeks we go have breakfast
and have a yarn.
I've never had that before in my life.
That's the respect. Andwe have a great yarn,
he wants to learn more and theneveryone will give me a hug
and go, "You're my Kator (indistinct) Kat.
(45:38):
And they come up and giveme a hug. And it's like,
this gives me hope becausethey want to connect.
They value what I can bring.
They value the role,
but they value the cultural input.
- That's fantastic.
Yeah, that's perfect.
Yeah.
I wanna hug when I go to work.
(46:00):
I'm gonna interrupt this epic yarn
because we're cutting the episode in half.
As you can hear,
Kat is an incredible talkerand we just kept talking
and we really didn'twanna cut too much out.
So it's now gonna be two episodes.
The next episode, part two,
we get to ask the questionsthat our listeners have sent in.
(46:21):
You wanted to ask Kat aboutproject timelines and logistics,
what indigenous or firstnations people want to see
in their built environments
about the fetishization of culture,
about balancing culturalheritage and contemporization,
as well as questions on research,
agriculture and planting.
(46:41):
I really loved Kat'sapproach to these questions,
her answers and insights.
And I know that you will too.
So check out part two on "Hassle Talks".
This episode was producedby Prue Vincent and myself
in collaboration with Hassel's Cultural
Engagement Working group.
With particular thanks to Rubina Cook,
Kirsten Thompson,
Adam Davis and Liam Cridland
(47:04):
for their time and guidance.
(birds chirping)
- From global design practise, Hassell,
this is "Hassell Talks".
Welcome back.
I'm Hannah Galloway.
I'm a landscape architectin Hassell, Perth Studio,
(00:22):
and I'm your host this episode.
I'm joined by Kat Rodwell.
Kat's a First Nationsconsultant, cultural advisor,
and storyteller. And, Katis someone we at Hassell
and many organisations turn to on projects
to educate and guide us onour journey to knowledge.
Where I am, I'd say kaya, which is hello.
(00:43):
I'd say Kat, welcome, which is Wanju,
and that's in Noongar language.
- Yuma, which is helloin Ngunnawal country.
But, I'm in Weraerai country.
- Thank you.
So, before we go any further,
and before we make anyfurther introductions,
which I can't wait to do,
I'd just like to acknowledge and respect
the Noongar Whadjuk people
(01:04):
and the Weraerai peopleas the original custodians
of the land on wherewe are recording today,
and acknowledge their uniqueability to care for country
and their deep spiritual connection to it.
We honour elders past,
present, and emerging,
whose knowledge and wisdom has
and will ensure thecontinuation of cultures
and traditional practises.
(01:25):
Hi, Kat, how are you?
And, who are you?
And can you tell us a littlebit about you, yourself?
- Yuma. (laughing)
I love "who are you?"
And, I don't know half the time who I am.
I'm still learning who I am.
I'm guided by ancestors of past,
and all the elders from past,
and elders today.
It's that I'm so luckythat I'm guided by them
(01:46):
in everything I do,
which is amazing.
Where do I start?
Well, proud Ngunnawal woman.
Grew up on Dharwalcountry out in La Perouse,
as everybody would say,
swimming with anything andeverything in the ocean.
I'm a water baby, absolute water baby,
and a shark fanatic I should say.
(02:08):
- Yeah, and thank you somuch for joining us today
and it is lovely to see you again.
- Well, we're going to havean epic yarn, I call this.
And, I always say...
I always start off these bysaying let's get comfortable
with being uncomfortable
and that means me as well.
And, we walk this together.
So, the questions that we talk about,
it means that let's be truthful,
(02:30):
that raw truth telling,
and this is what we're going to do today.
- Kat and myself haveworked together before.
We went back in 2020, 2021,
deep in the midst of COVID.
So, we've only ever spoken online.
I've never actually met you in person
because I'm over in Perthand you are over in Victoria.
So if you could just explainto us a little bit, Kat,
(02:52):
about what it is that you do.
- A lot.
In a nutshell,
I suppose what I do isI act as a go between,
or the old-fashioned sifting.
You put your flower in andsift through everything,
all the information soit comes out properly.
I help to work with traditional owners,
(03:15):
elders and community,
work with projects andwork with architects
and design teams and otherfacets of that project
to make sure that their voice is heard,
that they have a seat at the table.
And not just the seat every now and then,
(03:35):
that they're like project managers,
that they have the ability to say,
hey, we're not happy with that.
Can you change this?
What about this?
So they're included in their own home,
which is effectively whatthe projects and that are
on someone else's countrythrough in their home.
(03:57):
I also help the projectteams and architects
to be able to understandcountry, the culture,
the protocols, to understand the history,
cultural mitigation,
but also take the teamon a cultural journey.
And when I say that'snot death by PowerPoint,
it's taking them on a journeywhere you can ask any question
(04:20):
you want for fear of saying, oh,
have I asked the wrong question?
Oh my gosh, is she gonna be angry with me?
I'm here to help, I'm here to bridge that,
to make sure that we all work together,
we all walk alongsidetogether so that the outcome
is this beautiful storytellingthrough the building,
(04:40):
through the structure.
And that country hasa voice loud and clear
and that everyone hears it,
sees it, smells it, and can feel it.
The other things I do ishave a look at, as I said,
my Bush Tucker, Bush medicine classes.
So you get to immerse in culture.
And the other part I do
is I fix the mistakes like a sweeper.
(05:00):
I'm good at sweeping, so people say.
So helping people to understand
that it's okay to makemistakes, but work with us.
- Yes.
To just introduce myself as well.
So I am a landscapearchitect with Hassell.
I've been working with Hassell now for,
well, nearly 20 years.
(05:21):
Gosh, is it that long?
I have had the privilegeof during that time
working on sort of somany different projects
in so many different sectors.
And since moving to the Perthoffice over the last 13 years,
all of those have hadwonderful engagement processes
with First Nations people.
So they've ranged from
St. John of God's publicand private hospital,
(05:44):
Perth, Optus Stadium,
Boola Bardip WA Museum,
Roebourne District High School,
which was a wonderful process
and that's ongoing at the moment.
And I've also lectured
and tutored modules with Curtin University
in some of the workthat they've been doing
with the Healing Centre forthe Stolen Generation Mission
(06:05):
out at Wandering.
So I personally have a deeprespect for First Nations people
and a huge interest in cultureand the spiritual connection
to the places that surround us.
And that is where I kind of come from
in regards to those reallyinteresting discussions.
Which leads me, I supposeinto what the intent
(06:28):
of today's chat is all about
is I think for wider contextto people all around the world
who may be listening,
I wanted to first touch onwhy it's so important to have
these conversations and these discussions
with First Nations people in Australia.
As traditional owners,
the cultural connection thatyou've had over thousands
(06:51):
of years with place and theunderstanding of systems
and that spiritual connection
to Australia itself.
I just feel as though it's soimperative and so important
that any change to place orany further understanding of
place is done in a discussionwith First Nations people.
(07:12):
And that helps us as landscape architects
and architects and designers of spaces
for people to better understand the places
and the systems and the spirituality
and the connections tobe able to move forward
together in partnership
and create better spaces for everyone.
(07:33):
What's your understandingof engagement, Kat?
- For me, we talk about the term listening
and this is about engaging.
We need to listen, and for us, our mob,
our people all around Australia
and probably like everyother culture is we listen
not only with your ears but with our eyes,
(07:57):
with what we see, with what we hear,
with what we smell, with what we touch.
That's how we hear.
So it means that we aregrounded with country
because Mother is our country.
She looks after us and welook after Mother in turn.
She nourishes us, we nourish Mother.
(08:18):
So we've got to listen toher with all those senses.
So for me, engaging isusing all those senses
when we speak,
when we talk to our traditional learners,
when we listen to them,
when we listen to our elders
because they're the caretakers of country.
They're the ones that tellus the stories of the past
(08:40):
and bring them to the present.
They're the ones thatshare all the knowledge
of the hundreds and thousands of years.
They're the ones that showus how to live with Mother,
with country, how to learn from country,
how to respect country sothat we can coexist together.
(09:02):
That's engaging.
That's the short version.
- That's so beautifuland so beautifully put.
And so it is a fullsensory immersion in a way.
And I loved...
Somebody once describedit, a traditional owner,
and he described it to me asan exchange of energy as well,
that, that connectionis something that can be
(09:25):
literally felt throughan exchange of energy.
The more people that are in a place,
the more the energy can build up as well,
and the exchange ofenergy between the ground
and the country itself sortof resonates and builds up.
Is that correct?
- Exactly.
So I'm thinking of...
What's the movie withthe blue people, Avatar?
(09:46):
When I was watching Avatar andhow they were talking about
they were all one witheverything they saw,
they were all connectedwith that same energy,
that is the same with us.
And when I saw them,
they were saying that there'sthis energy that the ground,
the trees, the animals, theyall work in sync together.
(10:10):
That's how we feel aboutcountry and the energy.
And when I saw that movie, Iwent, oh wow, bang on, bang on.
That's what it's like,our connection to country,
all those senses.
And you're right, it's like being...
Sometimes the more people we have,
we have at our celebrationsand properties,
you rock concerts.
(10:30):
You're rocking on
and all this energy andbuilds and builds and builds
because you are all sharingthat time, that space,
that moment with everyone
and grounded on country.
Once again, what yousee, hear, smell, touch.
- And I suppose thatif we're understanding
(10:51):
and I suppose taking theexample again from Avatar,
it's just expressing in that way,
all of how natural systems
are all interconnected and interwoven.
And if we change one element
so that as architects and developers
and the sort of sectors that we're in
where you're changing one aspect of it
(11:12):
and it has such a detailedand knock-on effect
to the balance of all of those systems.
So again, it's having these conversations
to go on that journey together
to understand impacts to all, I suppose.
- Yeah, one cannotexist without the other.
That's why we say water forall of us is the giver of life.
(11:34):
And it is for anyone.
Without water we cannot survive.
So that's just an example of it.
So yeah, anything, we all exist.
A famous uncle who'spassed away was saying
he's now in the dreaming,
and he always said we don't own the land,
(11:56):
the land owns us.
Nothing is older than the land.
And that was how it was said.
It was beautifully said.
- It is beautifully said.- That's our connection.
- The different cultural backgrounds
are what makes thesediscussions so fascinating
because it's just a continuousabsorption of learning.
(12:17):
I think that what somepeople might find difficult
is to connect to somethingthat's very natural
in the systems when they're stood
in the middle of centralbusiness district.
Do you know what I mean?
So that you're surrounded with buildings,
the systems are not visible to you,
the connection is not obvious and literal.
I imagine there's still aconnection there for yourself.
(12:38):
And can you explain how youlisten to country still in,
say for example, the city centre?
- Yeah, we call it living culture.
So it's living cultural heritage
because it is seen everywhere.
It is heard everywhere.
We can touch it everywhere.
Unlike like let's just say
(12:58):
where you are from in your country,
give me something that's of...
What's one of your mainbig cultural features
in your country?
What is something everybody knows?
- You can go landscape features,
but if originally from the UK,
you probably end up with somebody saying
The House of Parliament, BigBen. Do you know what I mean?
(13:19):
There'd probably belandmarks or Stonehenge
or something like that.
- Thank you, okay.
So places like that,
our culture, we just touch the ground,
and we'll have artefacts comeup, our middens, et cetera.
The landscape itself is our culture.
(13:40):
So having said that,
we say our culture stilloozes through the cement
and the concrete and everything.
It is still there becauseour connection is so strong,
the spiritual connection.
So another question, thisis building it up to it.
When you fly, you've beeninto Melbourne, I gather.
(14:01):
- Yeah.- Okay.
When you're coming in on the aeroplane,
I think I've asked youthis question before,
you're just about to fly into the airport,
when you're looking down over Melbourne,
what do you really see?
- But I mean when you arethat far up and that high up,
yeah, you see landscape,you see systems, you see...
I see the tops of the hills, the valleys,
(14:23):
and the difference betweenwhere country starts
and city starts and the details are gone.
Like for example,
a landmark that I wasdescribing is not visible
from an aeroplane
but a larger kind oflike geographical region
or whatever is.
- Hmm.
Yeah, because a lot of peoplewill say I see buildings
(14:46):
and not much greeneryand we always use this.
And for me, I see it differently.
It's like an in-built system within us,
our connection tocountry that's spiritual.
I see Immediately I'll go to the walkways,
I'll immediately find abit of green so to speak.
(15:06):
I see beyond below theconcrete jungle so to speak,
because country is stillspeaking through it,
speaking to us.
Sky country, star country,the trees, the wind.
So when I go into places where it's...
In Melbourne for example,
when you walk through and wecall it the Pentridge jail,
(15:28):
which is the bluestone walk piece,
which is just...
Oh, it makes you feel enclosed
but always find thatconnection coming through it.
So usually I get people to stand there
and to close your eyes.
And the first thing is, okay,
everyone's teams to be ableto use ear, listening first,
(15:48):
it's the first thing of connection.
And we take that time to just stop
because Melbournites really don't stop.
They just keep going.
So we say stop, breathe, connect.
So stop, breathe, connect to country,
(16:09):
the first step.
And we say listen, what do you hear?
And when they're reallylistening, it's amazing.
Most will say I can hear the wind.
I can hear some of the wind.
You can hear it sometimesin the trees and the leaves,
(16:30):
and I go, that's ourancestors talking to you,
the wind and the leaves.
Every now and then someone will go,
oh, I can actually hear people walking.
I go, that's good.
Our ancestors are walking with you.
And some will say, depending where we are,
(16:51):
I can hear a bird or two, whichis quite rare in the city.
And I go, how good is that?
Our ancestors are talkingthrough the birds to you.
And I go, okay, what can yousee beyond the buildings?
And some people say the trees
and the movement of the trees swaying.
(17:16):
I can see the sky, sky country.
Doesn't matter where it's blue or black,
you can see it.
I can see the clouds at night.
I can see the stars, star country,
or they'll see some birds fly over,
or sometimes they will seepeople laughing, people talking.
(17:37):
That's the connections all coming through.
They'll see the Birim, the Yarra River.
And I say, okay, what do you smell?
And some people, youget someone who'll go,
oh, all I can smell is the cars and that.
And I go, okay, connect.What can you smell?
And it's quite amusing
(17:58):
because then peopleblock out the car smells
and they start to think ofsome of the food smells.
And I go, okay, what else?
And every now and then someone will go,
I can actually smell some ofthe leaves coming through.
It may not be the eucalyptus leaves
because there's not many left in the city,
(18:20):
but it's the smell of country.
And it's okay if they say Ismell different foods in that.
That's the smell of country as well.
Okay, then we go walk arounda bit and let's have a look.
And when you find someof the trees and that,
I get them to touch becausethat's our ancestors as well.
(18:42):
And the trees are grounding,
they're strong and theirroot system is strong
and connects us to country andwith all the leaves and that,
they can hear and theancestors are talking
and the birds are talking through it,
and then all of a suddenthe branches are there.
We say maybe our ancestorsare there sitting,
they're watching over you.
And then they start to go,
(19:03):
I'm starting to realise there's more depth
to connecting to country,
to what your spiritualconnection is to country.
It's not one dimension.
It's many, many.
And that's why we sayour connection is unique.
It's on many levels.
And where one is affected,
(19:25):
it affects us deeply becausewe say it is our soul,
it is our Mother.
So when Mother is notwell, we're not well.
So that's how we start off with that.
Getting people to have alook at the area they're in,
connecting with what is around them
through the many sensors.
So it's more like paint by numbers.
(19:46):
We're starting to layer the story,
the narratives that you needto know where you are first,
so to speak.
That's the start.
- That is so amazing.
Thank you so much for that.
I just feel as thoughI've been transported.
I was fully immersed in thatand it was just beautiful.
(20:08):
So thank you.
I find that it is aboutreminding ourselves,
and just like we all talkdifferently about wellbeing,
that is part of wellbeing as well.
Just reminding ourselves to stop,
and everything is hurrying by
and we see what's justin front of our noses,
(20:29):
that like you say,
the cars and the fumes and thebuildings and the whatever,
and the people and thebuses and that's there.
It's obvious.
But if we stop for a momentand listen, as you're saying,
I love your description of the layers,
and it is, it's the subtlelayers that are still there,
doesn't matter where you are.
Yeah, beautifully described.
Thank you so much for that.
(20:52):
I just feel a little bit morezen for that discussion there.
So I think that that's so important
as one step of understandingplace and connection to place
and as we are describinglistening to place.
And so I suppose now Ijust wanted to understand
a little bit about how bestto listen to voices as well.
(21:15):
So when I've gone tomany different meetings,
and over here, it's affectionatelytermed as Noongar time
because there should be notimeframe to a discussion.
And Liz, that's the beauty of it,
because it's a huge amount ofrespect that you give somebody
if you dedicate time
(21:38):
and enough time to have that conversation
so that you're not driven by an agenda.
And I'm here till thistime and have to leave then
and we need to discussthis, this, this and this.
It's not about that.
It's about the connection, isn't it?
It's about stopping andlistening and immersing in that.
And that should not bedriven by priorities
(21:59):
other than that conversation.
And there are certainprotocols, aren't there?
When we start a discussion with elders
and with traditional owners.
I wondered if you could justtouch on us for our listeners
just to understand some of those protocols
when we first walk intoa room to start a yarn,
start a discussion.
(22:19):
- Yeah, I'd say first up,
I say to people knowwhose country you are on,
and for people who go,you're in Australia,
yes, the country.
For First Nations people,
we have many countries within Australia
and we say that is...
You could say it's like going into Europe.
(22:41):
You've got many countries within Europe,
that's like our mob here.
Each country is different.
Each country will have theirown protocols, their own laws,
L-O-R-E, that is.
Their own, what you call, a flag.
They could have a totem, not totem pole.
Their own ways of dealing and engaging
(23:02):
and that's important to know first.
So whose country are you on?
You've identified Noongar.
I've identified what Ngunnawal people.
So to know the protocols is,
I always say we need to askpermission to walk on country,
which is the old ways.
In the olden days, way back past,
(23:23):
they would've sent someone forward.
And it's not necessarily you see a gate
or anything like that, goring a doorbell or whatever.
It's country.
We sort of knew where theso-called boundaries were.
We would send a message and go across
and it's different in each mob.
So you'd go there and maybehave a smoke via going,
(23:45):
and you announce you'recoming and you ask permission.
Let's just say I'mcoming from your country
Noongar country to theelders, judicial owners,
and say why we want to,
because sometimes weneed to come on country
to discuss business, to trade,
to arrange marriages,
(24:06):
to celebrate, to have celebrations.
And it was a time where, for example,
giving a gum leaf,
dipping it in water and sucking on it
was saying, I abide by your law.
I come in peace and I willtread lightly on country.
(24:32):
And by them saying, well, comeon in, you're welcome then,
come and share all our resources.
Let's do trade, let'stalk, let's celebrate.
And you then walk throughcountry and you do that trade.
So I still do that practise that,
whether it be a phone call or email,
announcing the intention of the project
(24:53):
and the companies and the people,
asking permission to walkon country and a brief about
what the project's about and where it is.
So therefore, we're startingthat respectful dialogue,
respectful relationship andthey go, cool, that's great.
From there, protocols wouldbe you've got to remember
(25:13):
a lot more people are starting to
engage traditional owners, elders.
So there's that overload.
We call it cultural overload.
So we need to give time.
And you brought it up, we don't sit,
we never used to sitback and go, I'm hungry,
when is our Mother gonna be here,
at 12 o'clock by the sun dial.
(25:36):
I think by 12:10 they should be here,
by 12:30 when the sun'salmost little bit changed.
We're going to eat by this time
and possibly skin a kangaroo by 1:05
according to the sun.
So we don't do that.
As I said, the idea iswe come to yarn, to talk.
(26:02):
It may not be business.
It's an announcement, it's just a talk.
So we got to give time,
and I always say makesure minimum these days,
four weeks, and most will have forms
to fill out to say whatthe project's about,
(26:23):
what we're looking at,
why we need to have that consultation.
And then they may say,
give a few times and dates andthen they'll come back to you
usually and say, well, this suits us.
So it's not about you tellingus what time you wanna meet.
It's about you saying, could we meet?
(26:44):
We would love to talk to you more.
We want to know more aboutyour culture at this time
and this place when it's best for you.
That's that reconciliation,
that's that respectful dialogue happening.
So even in the pre-meeting Iwill usually meet with the team
to give them an overallbackground of the area,
(27:07):
of whose country it is,
just so you're a bit more awareof what to expect as well.
And sometimes I'll giveyou a bit of language.
So on the Werribee Project,
we met with Wadawurrung people,
Wadawurrung TraditionalOwner Aboriginal Corporation.
And we also met at other projects
(27:30):
and we always used a bit oflanguage to start off with.
So on Wadawurrung country, nyurra,
which means sort of like ahello in Wadawurrung language,
and that was respectful.
Traditional owners love that.
And then we might havesaid at the end, kun gadji,
which sort of mean thank you go and peace.
See you later.
Simple things of using a bit of language,
(27:51):
when it's appropriate, use.
We ask permission, whoever is there,
do we call you auntie and uncle?
Is it okay if we do?
Ask permission first.
I always say the term Iwant you all to think about
and keep in mind is two words
and it's gonna help you out a lot.
(28:13):
Ask first.
If you're not sure, ask.
- One of the other thingsI wanted to touch upon
was the fact that walking into a room,
if there are FirstNations people in the room
that haven't necessarily met each other,
I think as consultants we need to remember
that there is thatprocess and that protocol.
(28:35):
We need to just step back for a minute
and let the First Nationspeople in the room
talk about where they're from,
understand their family backgrounds.
Am I correct in that understanding?
Because when I've beenin meetings and things,
it's sort of been my name's such and such,
oh, your surname is X, youmust be from this area,
I know your auntie.
(28:56):
And it's almost like they learneach other's family country
within the discussion to understand
who each other are as partof that cultural protocol.
Am I right in that understanding?
- Yeah, it's like not oneperson makes decisions
in the group.
We are communal
so there's many peoplethat have that decision,
(29:17):
but some groups don't like tomeet together in a meeting.
So we've got to be very wary.
Is it appropriate to have various,
I call them mob
because that's from whatI was taught from mine,
in the same room together.
Is it more respectful tohave separate meetings?
And that's when I say askfirst because some may feel
(29:39):
uncomfortable and that's natural.
So usually when we come in,
I will usually tell eachmob who's going to be there.
So it gives them the opportunityif they want to engage
or if they don't want to.
So when the time happens,
yes, you're right, let them do that.
But a lot of the times,
they may not want to talkabout more family business,
(30:00):
where they're from.
So we say don't presumethey're gonna tell you
where they're from andeverything like that.
They may not want to, butyou give them what they want.
- And it's something that I personally
have never asked of anybody.
It's just sort of allowing,
I suppose if that happensthrough a natural conversation,
(30:20):
just stepping back and lettingthat sort of all occur.
- Yeah, yeah.
Many uncles and aunties, and as I said,
they may not be what you term is by blood,
but as I said, it's very a community.
And that's the funny thing.
We all walk in and go, yeah,I know you, I know you.
I've walked over to Victoriaand they go, I know you.
(30:41):
You are Senate up at theNorthern Territory and ACT.
And they go, oh mygosh, I come to Victoria
and there's Senate Street everywhere.
They go, didn't know we were here.
So yeah.
- When we're talking aboutpeople and understanding people
and mediation within aspace and reading the room
and all of those things,
I think one thing that'ssometimes forefront
(31:03):
in people's mind who do care,
they do care as a professionalwalking into this space,
as a designer and architect or whoever,
that we don't want to offend.
We don't wanna say the wrong thing.
We are sometimes nervous andtreading on eggshells as such
that you say something,
(31:23):
a cultural faux pas,you get something wrong.
Should we be nervous orshould we be conscious?
But truth tell,
I think that's a term we've used before,
so that we can then learn from each other.
And if it's an open andauthentic conversation,
we can help each otherlearn the better way
through the conversation.
(31:44):
- Exactly.
Look, as I said, when wecame down and sat together,
the reason why we talkabout yarning circles,
which run exactly 360 degrees,
and it's the thing ofwe're facing each other.
There's no one behind our backs
where the truth telling can come forward.
That's how we want to sit with you.
By saying you won't know everything.
(32:06):
We won't know everything.
So we say don't walk on eggshells
because you're holding back.
If you really want to learn something,
ask and if it is wrongthe way you're putting it,
then we will talk through it.
We'll tell you but not go,
nope, we're not talking to anymore.
You can't pronounce that right.
That's not how it goes.
(32:27):
When we're on thislearning journey together,
we walk together,
it means, yeah, raw truth telling.
Ask those questionsbecause it's the only way
we're going to move forward.
When we have our epic yarns
or we have our code desire side sessions,
you are brought into that conversation,
(32:48):
whereas in the past,people keep you out of it.
You get here at third hand,
we bring you into that conversation
where you are there witheveryone that needs to be there
where you are free in asafe culturally environment
to ask those questions.
You mightn't get the answer you want,
but it's a culturally safespace because we set that scene,
(33:12):
we invite you into the conversation.
So please ask those questions
and don't feel afraid to do so.
When I do my once upon the answer series,
I do 'em online becausethen people can type
in their questions because they feel
more comfortable doing that way.
At the same time, if you are in a meeting,
(33:37):
then you can probably givequestions ahead of time as well
if you feel that uncomfortable.
So preempt us,
these are the questionswe really want to know.
- So one thing I wanted to ask
was by having these discussions
and trying to promote engagement,
which is so important,
is there a risk thatwe're not going to have
(33:57):
with the timelines of many projects,
enough people to engage with?Do you know what I mean?
Like, people are becoming so stretched
because we've got key elders
and key kind of traditionalowners that are are willing
and happy to have these conversations
and I, you know...
(34:20):
There's a concern that witheverybody wanting to do it
and we're all working andmoving in the right direction
and it's all a hundred percent positive.
How are we perceiving this working
in the future when we've got yeah,
all of these projectsgoing at the same time
and everybody wanting to meet and talk
and yarn and things.
We are gonna get burnoutfrom a lot of people.
(34:43):
Yeah.
- You already are, it's overload.
You gotta remember a lotof our younger ones are not
stepping up to traditionalways anymore because of money.
When I was speaking to mobs about this,
I was giving 'em an idea ofhow we can try to help them
and what the companies can do to help
(35:04):
to sort of speed thingsup but also to make sure
to sort of lessen the cultural overload,
cultural burnout.
- Yeah and I think thatpart of asking that question
is understanding
that when we have spoken
with different,
whether it be aboriginal consultancy
(35:26):
and engagement firms or whether it be
just with elders or respected members.
It's all about having more andmore and more conversations
as an engagement earlier,
continuing the conversation,
having many touchpoints throughout
so that we're all on the journey together.
But that's adding more load,
(35:46):
that's adding more requirementfor kind of having many,
many more conversations.
And yeah, there is just that concern
of how we're gonna manage that
within regards to not getting burnout
within the cultural groups
and just having somebody from nine to five
having to meet, meet, meet, meet, meet.
(36:07):
- One hand it's great tosee a lot more projects
and people engaging us tobe part of the projects
and to want to put cultural narratives
and elements within them.
But on the other hand,
we're three 4% of the population.
It's hard because there'sthat cultural overload.
(36:28):
A lot of our elders cannot cope
with everyone's demandsof time and everything.
It means still engage where you can,
be reasonable about the timeframes,
be reasonable about the requests,
be reasonable about ifyou would like language,
(36:49):
the protocols that you haveto go through about that.
Does the language fit the project?
A lot of us are saying,
why are we just naming roomsand doors our language?
It's disrespectful, it gives no reverence.
Look at phrases and don't forget,
boundaries sometimes change,
(37:10):
which is what happened over here
when we had the RAP boundaries change.
So sometimes that language does not belong
in that country now.
So, and the other thing is we were saying,
well what can we do?
And this is from sometraditional owner groups
were asking and were saying that perhaps
can your company donate something?
(37:31):
We're not talking about money.
How about you have experts in IT,
in admin, in accounting, et cetera.
Can you donate 10 hoursof your accounting time,
of your it time to thesegroups to help 'em out serve?
All of that gets sorted andgives the elders more time to do
(37:52):
these engagement processes.
A lot of our elders whodo this within rigid
aboriginal parties,
native title holders andis people tend to think,
oh, they must be earninga fortune and they're not.
And that's the sad part.
And the other part is,
you gotta remember there's elders too
(38:15):
that may not know all theknowledge you require.
Stolen generation comes into it.
You gotta remember it wasn't that long ago
that were then allowedto speak our language.
We were allowed to share our culture,
our stories.
So pre-colonization,
(38:35):
we had 300 and somethingdifferent languages
and we passed down these stories
and we shared all of this responsibility.
Colonisation.
We were being eradicated
and that's the term, eradicated.
So we weren't allowedto speak our language,
we weren't allowed totalk about our culture.
We were taken away.
(38:57):
We were not stolen,
we were kidnapped andtaken away from family,
our culture, our comfort,
into assimilate into the white culture.
So a lot of our storiesand language was lost.
And some people tend to think
when they go into these meetings,
come on, you're aboriginal,you're from here,
(39:17):
you must know all these stories
and that we need to know everything.
And we say,
"Please be respectful becausethey may not know that
because what was taken from them."
- So Kat how are you coping?
How are you coping with cultural overload
and what gives you hope?
- For me, I am so lucky,
I'm surrounded by eldersand traditional owners
(39:40):
from all around Australiawhere I do projects,
where when it gets reallytough and very emotional
and I hear stories of country
and how hurtful they canbe or I hear, we call 'em,
"Throwing spears at our back"
or we have people that just cannot
(40:02):
get over that reconciliation bridge
and I have to remain businesslike
but not show too muchemotion where it does hurt.
Because then I'm notspeaking for community.
I can go and talk to my elders,
which is a bonus.
And sit down with them towhat you would call debrief.
(40:23):
But I can sit down and have a yarn
and that's me offloading by saying
I really need to talkthis through this process.
Am I doing the right thing?
Am I still on that right path?
Because as I said,
a lot of people call me a wandering auntie
because I travel all over Australia
(40:44):
and get privy to these stories,
to connections to some ofthese horrific stories.
But I have to tell them
because that's whatthey've asked me to do so.
But I also have to offload them as well
because keeping them inside too much
means that I can't perform or do my role
(41:04):
by speaking for communityon behalf of, sorry,
on behalf of not for community.
It's big and you'll probablyfind a lot of people in my role
don't last.
I mean I've been doing it for a very,
very long time.
Many will come into it thinking, oh,
(41:24):
it's just listening and doing this.
And it's not because you'vegotta have thick skin
because not everyonewants to hear that story.
Not everyone wants to bepart of a cultural journey
and that's okay.
That's okay.
- And it's also exhaustingfor you, I imagine.
Yeah, absolutely exhausting.
- Very.
- Yeah, people tend to think,
(41:45):
one of the biggest thingis people tend to think
we do this for free and we don't
because you may do a session,
but it's all the prepbeforehand or after hand.
Having a conversationor setting up an event
can take something like 20hours just back and forth
with the elders or traditionalowners to set it up.
(42:05):
People don't see the behind the scenes.
When I do my epic yarns,
which I love performing as you would see
it is takes a lot out of you,
but it's the knowledge how youwant to engage the audience.
It does, it's a lot to take in energy-wise
and the fact that peopledon't see your role as worthy
(42:26):
of being paid and paid properly,
which is quite heartbreaking.
Yeah.
- Well totally empathise with the fact
that one of the hardest things to do.
And I think as we grow professionally,
I've found that you learn your skills,
et cetera.
One of the hardest thingsto learn is people.
Dealing with people andeverybody is different.
(42:48):
Everybody has different triggerpoints and like you say,
so learning to be able to beso empathetic in the position
that you must sit in tomediate at some point
between all people in the room
and ensure that a process runs smoothly,
that cultural protocols are understood
and adhered to, that people are protected
(43:09):
as well through processes.
And also, like you say,
there's potentially aftermathof kind of discussions
where you might have to then follow up
and ensure everybody is okay
and like there's so much that must go on
in your brain when you'retrying to read the room
all the time.
And then before and after thatwe don't even kind of always
(43:33):
yeah, it's not transparent.
- Yeah, you get to go home from your job.
I'm in my skin 24/7
and that's the partpeople don't understand.
And if I do somethingwrong within culture,
that's my role, my job gone
because we bush telegraph spreads
(43:53):
and that's pretty hard.
So you've really gotta be mentally,
physically on the ball the whole time
and it does get extremely tiring.
But I love doing this
and I know this is what myancestors have asked me to do,
so I love it.
And I've got Jeff works with me too,
(44:15):
so we bounce off each other'slike brother and sister role,
but just lucky.
And we've got lovelypeople like yourselves
who want to learn.
And I feel very comforted by the fact
that the hope is...
I'm seeing more and more people
like yourselves and architectswho are leading the way
and wanting to participate,
wanting to do things the right way,
(44:36):
wanting to reallyengage, not the tick box,
but do it for the right reasons.
And sometimes, as I said,
the opposite is I see people in my role
who are not in it for the right reason,
which is a shame.
But that balances it out.
Sometimes I go,
that's okay because I knowthere's hope out there,
(44:57):
that there is morepeople going to come up.
- Yeah well you just see somuch of it more occurring
and so much more positivityaround these discussions
and people being passionateand willing to learn
and wanting to be there and share
and take the journey together.
- Yeah, and they're asking more questions.
They feel like they can,
which is amazing.
(45:18):
Like I go onto a work siteand it's really quite funny
where it's one of the big bosses
who's head of a projectwants to meet with me
every two weeks we go have breakfast
and have a yarn.
I've never had that before in my life.
That's the respect. Andwe have a great yarn,
he wants to learn more and theneveryone will give me a hug
and go, "You're my Kator (indistinct) Kat.
(45:38):
And they come up and giveme a hug. And it's like,
this gives me hope becausethey want to connect.
They value what I can bring.
They value the role,
but they value the cultural input.
- That's fantastic.
Yeah, that's perfect.
Yeah.
I wanna hug when I go to work.
(46:00):
I'm gonna interrupt this epic yarn
because we're cutting the episode in half.
As you can hear,
Kat is an incredible talkerand we just kept talking
and we really didn'twanna cut too much out.
So it's now gonna be two episodes.
The next episode, part two,
we get to ask the questionsthat our listeners have sent in.
(46:21):
You wanted to ask Kat aboutproject timelines and logistics,
what indigenous or firstnations people want to see
in their built environments
about the fetishization of culture,
about balancing culturalheritage and contemporization,
as well as questions on research,
agriculture and planting.
(46:41):
I really loved Kat'sapproach to these questions,
her answers and insights.
And I know that you will too.
So check out part two on "Hassle Talks".
This episode was producedby Prue Vincent and myself
in collaboration with Hassel's Cultural
Engagement Working group.
With particular thanks to Rubina Cook,
Kirsten Thompson,
Adam Davis and Liam Cridland
(47:04):
for their time and guidance.
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