November 23, 2022 • 52 mins
Feeling overwhelmed in the face of climate and sustainability challenges? Have we got the episode for you.
With the built environment contributing to around 40% of global emissions, our industry has a critical – and pivotal - role to play to limit the projected impacts of climate change to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels by the end of the century. So we held an event to hear from the people making the changes in our industry that we all want to see more of, in the world.
The event, in November 2022, was run by a passionate group of female designers, championing equity and change in our industry.
They invited leaders in sustainability, waste, Passivhaus and community to come together in a Yarning circle, where designers and guests were able hear the motivations, failures, successes, and ideas for inspiring everyday action in environmental and social sustainability.
Great ideas deserve to be shared, and we recorded the event so you, too, can feel the optimism and motivation to keep going on a path toward Regeneration.
Hosted by Senior Architect Mia Willemsen, in this episode you'll hear from:
Kat Rodwell, Aboriginal Engagement Consultant, Balert Mura Consulting Maree Marshall, Director, Waste Management & Circular Economy, WSP; Clare Parry, Sustainability Manager, Development Victoria; Sam Peart, Head of Sustainability, Hassell Daniel Tatton, Senior Project Officer, Creative Victoria
Thanks to our WomenIN event organisers Sarah Mair, Maddie Gundry, Hannah Green, Chloe Gleeson, Mia Willemsen, Megan Boyle, Emily Shaw, Lauren Geschke, Ingrid Bakker, and Sam Peart.
This episode was recorded on Wurundjeri Woi-Wurrung Country in Naarm (Melbourne).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(upbeat music)
- Hi, this is "Hassell Talks,"
a podcast series looking atour changing and complex world,
and the opportunities for design
to create a better place for everyone.
It's a series that'sunashamedly optimistic
about creating a beautiful,inclusive, and resilient future.
(00:23):
I'm Mia Willemsen and I'm asenior architect at Hassell.
For the last year
I have been working withour sustainability team,
working on some really cool stuff,
like a sustainability framework,
sustainably focused researchand sharing knowledge,
particularly listeningto First Nations people.
But you know, as I do, thatthere is so much more designers
(00:45):
and individuals can do,
which brings me to theepisode you're about to hear.
I recently co-hosteda sustainability event
organised by Hassell's WomenIN group.
The event was called Know Your Place,
a tongue in cheek call to confidence
for women working in the design industry
to know how powerfultheir role and place is
(01:06):
and the change we want to make
when it comes to sustainability.
In this episode, you're aboutto get an exclusive insight
into that event held infront of more than 150 guests
in our Melbourne studio,
a converted 1880s warehouse
in Melbourne's Little Collins Street.
In the centre of our studio,
we created a yarning or dialogue circle.
(01:29):
Yarning circles are used in Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islandercultures, and around the world,
as a way to learn from a collective group
without hierarchy to buildrespectful relationships,
and to preserve and passon culture knowledge
in a safe and accountable way.
(indistinct chatters)
Our five speakers, who I'll introduce,
(01:49):
are sitting in thecircle facing each other
with the roles ofinterviewer and interviewee
relaying around the circle.
The audience, made up of women and men
from right across the designand construction industry,
are outside the circlelistening, interacting,
and later asking questions.
As our five speakers talk,
you'll hear about theirmotivations, failures, successes
(02:12):
and ideas for inspiring everyday action
in environmental andsocial sustainability.
They encouraged us tobe brave enough to fail,
to talk about our own journey,
which empowers others tomake good in their own way.
Our evening began with anacknowledgement of country
from Kat Rodwell.
Kat is a Ngunnawal woman
(02:32):
who facilitates co-design processes
between traditional owner groupsand aboriginal communities,
design teams and projects stakeholders.
Kat's work encourages us tostop, breathe, and connect,
to help us better facilitateconnection to country.
Her consultancy BalertMura means strong pathway,
and she was the heart and centre
(02:53):
facilitating our panel discussion.
(Kat speaks in foreign)
- You are on WurundjeriWoi-wurrung country,
the land of people that have been here
for well over 60,000 years,
the oldest living culture in the world.
And I am so honouredas a Ngunnawal bullan,
(03:16):
which means Ngunnawal womanto be on Wurundjeri country
because their ancestors are everywhere.
Beneath your feet, our history sleeps.
It's what you see, what youhear, the wind, what you feel,
even the rain, what you smell.
(03:40):
That is country.
And we thank the ancestors
for allowing us to walk oncountry and to work on country.
To all the elders for sharingthe stories, the knowledge,
the protocols with us becauseyou are all creative people.
And my respect to you forembedding these stories of country
in architecture, in designs,in the urban designs,
(04:03):
in everything we do, we walk together.
In my country we say(speaking in foreign),
which means you are welcome
to put your footprints on my country.
We walk together.
So from Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung,
I say thank you on behalf of all of this.
(04:23):
- Kat turns to her rightand begins her yarn
with one of the founding members
of the AustralianPassive House Association
and certified passivehouse trainer, Clare Parry.
Clare has a backgroundin mechanical engineering
with a portfolio ofsustainability accreditations
right across the Australianbuilding industry.
She lives and breathes asustainability methodology,
(04:45):
working towards a framework
that makes sustainabilityeasier for everyone.
- Country is sick. We canno longer heal country.
That's off the table now,
but we can connect tocountry to stop the hurt,
to stop the bleed.
So that's our mission tonight.
(05:06):
So let's work together todayand let's make a difference.
So Clare, I want to knowfor me an aboriginal person,
we say country is our mother
and we are connected on so many levels.
So when country's sick,we are actually sick,
(05:27):
and we can see a huge change in country.
And you talk aboutsustainability, to sustain.
We're the first architects,
we're the first sustainable people.
So I know what we can do.
What is a clear path...
What do you see as a clearpathway for sustainability?
- Yeah, I think it's quite contentious
(05:48):
because we start to hear
and feel free to approach me in the break,
but regeneration isn't the new buzzword.
I'll say buzzword because in my mind
sustainability isn't aboutwe're here, let's keep going,
this is great.
It's about connectingback to care for country.
And I think I don't know that well enough.
(06:11):
I rely on first peoplesto help us with that.
But I definitely wanna make space
and open up that space for,you know, first peoples
to help us to understandwhat sustainability is
from a care for country perspective.
I feel it. I know that I feel it.
(06:33):
So it's not about a thingthat I do for my job.
I'm from Northwest Tassie.
- We won't hold thatagainst you, but keep going.
(all laugh)
- But I tell everyone that.
And if you've asked me anything about me,
I will have told you thatbecause I still feel it
even though I left there a long time ago.
But that connection tocountry is very real
(06:56):
and watching the earthand country struggle
is very debilitating to me.
So I find it really hard
to actually to keep going sometimes.
- Yeah and for me, just listening to you
and the way you speak,
you understand that connection to country.
(07:18):
So in your role, I didread a little tiny bit,
so I'm gonna admit that now.
But you talk about even anyone of us in our home life
or, you know, the commonperson can be sustainable
and can live sustainable andtheir houses can be redesigned.
(07:40):
I've worked in the buildingindustry, construction industry
and sometimes it's likehitting a brick wall,
literally sometimes,
because they don't understandthat to design with country,
as you all say,
sustainability really, really needs
to be at the top of that list.
So what do you do in your role?
(08:00):
- I spend every day
trying to get everyone tounderstand that, which is fun.
(all laugh)
But I felt a shift,
and it was probably justbefore COVID started,
but COVID really accelerated that shift.
Sustainability was (indistinct)
(08:22):
But sustainability wasprobably the second last person
in the room to be asked in ateam meeting like, you know,
okay, the issues this week are...
(indistinct) was last? Sorry.
(all laugh)
But the shift has beensubstantial and it's been dramatic
and it's only getting moreand more front and centre.
(08:46):
And I might live in a bubble,
but I don't see a single news article.
Might be reading specific news articles,
but that doesn't talk aboutthe impacts of climate change
and sustainability andhealth and wellbeing,
which are all linked andeverything is coming back
to we are doing a really shit job
(09:08):
of caring for country, yeah.
- In one sentence...
Now, I'm putting you onthe spot for this one.
In one sentence, sum upsomething easy all of us could do
towards a sustainable life.
- I think reconnect.
(09:31):
- Perfect. That's one word, I love it.
(indistinct) You're good, you're good.
- Become more efficientand reconnect, yeah.
- Yeah, I like that because I said,
you're right because sustainability,
people always put it last
because they put it inthe too hard baskets.
And it's not really,it's the simple things
as you're just saying,you know, reuse, recycle.
We forget that, and you tendto put that into, you know,
(09:55):
houses and what you're talking about.
So I love that you got thataccreditation about that
and putting people on the spot to say
you need to be accountable
and we all need to be accountable to this.
- Yeah, a hundred percent.
I think all thoseaccreditations are just 'cause
I was looking for what'sthe right answer here.
And when I started mycareer it's like well,
you need all theseaccreditations to do your job.
(10:17):
And I was like, well,these aren't the right ones
because they don't seem to work.
How about these ones?
And I kept sort of following this path
and now I've got 15 accreditations.
(all laugh)
Wasn't intentional but yeah,
still looking for theright answer to be honest.
- So what is the accreditationthough? What it's about?
- I've got a bunch.
(Clare chuckles)
- What is the best one?
Pick one of them.- Just the one?
- Yeah.
(10:37):
- I mean the one that I hold
probably front and centre for me
because I've chosen tospecialise quite specifically
is Passive House.
And it's really pursuingwhat is the best we can do
with a particular built form.
It's not always the right answer
and it's not the only thing we need to do,
but it is the thing that we do so badly
(11:00):
that could make the biggestdifference, I think,
so, yeah, that's the one I've got.
- I love it. No, it's good.
I love what you do becauseyou stand up and as I said,
you're not someone who's going to wilt
when you've gone throughso many experiments
to get this right and we'renever going to get it right
because if we become perfect
then there's no more roomfor improvement, is there?
(11:22):
- So, yeah, I mean if you hadn't known me
when I was about 17,
you could have pushed me overwith a feather, you know.
I think it's taken a lot of time
to get the confidence to actuallyfind that space, you know,
in a project, in a meetingroom and in my work.
But I think if you just sortof keep asking questions,
keep following, you know, basically.
(11:44):
And that's the single pieceof advice I'd give to anybody
starting their careeris follow your passion.
I know that's pretty trite
but find what it means for you, yeah.
- (indistinct) Thank you Clare.
- Fantastic. Thank you.
(audience applaud)
- And now Clare turns to her right
to yarn with Maree Marshall.
Maree is the director of waste management
(12:05):
and circular economy at WSP,
leading a team acrossAustralia and New Zealand.
Her zero waste strategiesare both innovative
and celebrated.
Arming precincts, councilsand everything in between
with action plans thatencompass waste hierarchy
and circular economy principles.
Maree's knowledge of theworld of waste is incredible.
(12:27):
She knows who generatesit, what they generate,
where it ends up andhow it can be avoided.
- Maree, so I first met you
when I was in meetings with you and Sam
and I couldn't get a word in edgeways,
which is why we don'tknow each other very well.
(all laugh)
But what became really, really clear
was you're passionate abouttaking what your job is
(12:50):
and what is meaningfulto you into your life.
And I remember one conversation
where you and Sam were talkingabout trading fruit, I think
to make alcoholic beverages.
- Oh no.
(all laugh)
Can you tell us moreabout sort the translation
of your passion into how you live?
- Yes. I did offer Sam myapricots and my grapefruit
(13:17):
to make a brew, that is very true.
I am a very much a grassroots person.
I have embarrassed myfamily on many a trip.
Could you stand beside that bin,
photograph the size (indistinct)?
(all laugh)
But to the point wheremy youngest got to prep
and went up to the teacherand went, "Which bin?"
(13:40):
And he was horrified.
There was only one and hewasn't gonna put it in the bin.
And I thought, OMG, it's working.
I do, I go home every dayknowing that I've influenced
or changed or improved the lives of people
who will live in thebuildings that I design.
(14:01):
Waste is one of those disciplines
where my decisions and my team's decisions
and our thinking outside the box
will carry on for thelife of that building
in an operational mode.
Were those shoots easy to use?
Did you have the right decisions?
Was it adaptable
when the government'snow moved the goal post,
we've got four bins in Victoria,
was the design ready forthat? Can it change for that?
(14:23):
And I go back knowing thatI've made an enormous impact
and for those of you whoconnected with me on LinkedIn,
you'll know that I choppedup a rainwater tank
that I've had repaired twicerecently and it's my woodstock.
I didn't move it, I didn'tdiscard it, I repurposed it.
(14:44):
And there's a photo of me inreally tatty gardening jeans
and a paint coveredshirt with a power drill.
And I posted it because Ido, I believe in what I do.
- I think that's awesome. I love it.
- Don't go searching that place please.
(all laugh)
- I think that there's alot of power in imperfection
(15:06):
and in the imperfectionof everybody's approach
to sustainability specifically.
How do you feel about that statement?
- It's very, very true.
If we were waiting for perfection,
we wouldn't be preparedto think outside the box.
My team aren't drilled, don'trepeat the design to me.
(15:26):
I wanna see an improvement,
I wanna see alternate thinking.
How are we gonna get to the next step?
And the comment came upjust before, sustainability,
to sustain is to keep it the same level.
Well, hang on, I wantimprovement not to sustain.
I want to put the accelerator on,
remove things from the system.
(15:48):
I want avoidance,recycling's too late, right?
If you've used it and nowyou're gonna recycle it,
too late, way too late.
You had a decision to make much earlier
than to avoid or to refuse and to rethink.
Did you make that decision
before you put the shopping bag in the car
or walk to the shop, right? Avoid it.
(16:08):
If you were thinking aboutrecycling that plastic bag,
you're too far down the chain.
So I think it's exceptionally important.
- Yeah. Absolutely.
Tell us about how yougot to where you are.
Did you start here
and is this where youthought you'd end up?
- No. I only failed one subject at uni
that was hydraulics and thenI joined the Board of Works.
I'm old.
(16:29):
I joined the Board of Worksand I started in hydraulics.
And I actually started in rock beaching,
the Frankston Water SportsCentre, the dam burst,
Maree rebuilt it.
So nothing sustainable.
And I had a boss who he saidto me, "You're very green."
(16:50):
I thought it meant naive. I had no idea.
I was like four years out of uni.
He meant I belonged in a green industry.
So I was very fortunate to work overseas
and I highly recommend it to anyone
who can take secondment ora travelling opportunity.
You learn an immense amountabout you, your culture
(17:12):
and your offering.
And I came home and I wasworking for a politician
and eventually I just had toget off that rollercoaster.
I said I can't do this anymore.
So I did intentional careerchange. I cut my pay by 50%.
I knew I needed to go andwork in a feel good industry.
(17:35):
I needed to give back,you know what I mean?
To my local community,
I needed to give back to me and my family.
And so I went to work for local government
and I ended up in the environment team
and about the secondproject was to do with waste
and I've now been inwaste for over 25 years.
So I knew that I'd found my place
that I can make a differenceand that I believe in.
(17:57):
- And one thing you're really good at is,
how do I say this politely?
Making yourself known in meetings?
(all laugh)
And we talked earlier about how we...
Know Your Place is quite triggering to me,
but finding your own space and place,
how do you do that for others?
(18:21):
- That was quite a challengefor me. You're right.
I am a talker and so my biggest challenge
is to keep to the time and I admit that.
But as I've become a manager,
I now watch other people
who are trying to find the quiet time,
the break in the conversationand how to get into that.
(18:42):
And so now I'm much more aware
about intentionally askingpeople into that conversation
to make sure we're all heard.
Because I used to go to leadoff meetings,
inception meetings, W, waste,
last on the agenda aftersustainability, yeah?
And I'd intentionally wear red.
(19:03):
I wasn't gonna disappear inthat crowd of black students.
(indistinct)
I needed to make sure, my discipline...
Yes we're small, but we havea high impact on that job.
You're not gonna get a planning permit
with (indistinct).
And so I had to fight myway into that discussion.
I don't have to have that fight anymore.
(19:24):
Because yes, I'm very, very fortunate
and very humbled by theacknowledgement that I get
into meetings.
Most people are aware of me,the girl in red, curly hair
who turns up before I comeand that's very warming
to know that I feel like I belong there.
(19:45):
Which is a bit aboutKnow Your Place, right?
You become very humble
and you don't need thatbig introduction anymore.
But that took a lot of work.
But more importantly,bring a buddy, right?
Today we brought a buddy.
Bring in the younger crowd,
bring in people from the outside
and make sure they're welcome
and involved in the conversation.
And I see that as a really big part
(20:07):
of my current role as youprogress in your career.
- The sustainability space
and probably the space you'reworking in specifically
is changing rapidly.
How do you handle notknowing the answer sometimes?
- That is a really good question.
My husband was horrified
that I actually said toa client very recently,
(20:29):
"I need to think about that."It's very un-me, right?
I'm a fly by the seatin my pants, and yeah.
And back my judgement , but occasionally
I do need to say to peopleI need a moment to think.
To put it in perspective,
to see that it aligns
and that I'm not gonna jeopardise
(20:51):
another component by my actions.
I think we have to be that more holistic
and especially as things aremoving at a very fast pace,
we all don't have the knowledge.
We're doing an incredibleamount of training
and expanding our knowledge at the moment.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're in super economy space
(21:12):
or whether you're in the material space
and how are we coming together.
It's even more important nowthat we are working together
because we've got our footand the brake pretty hard
trying to slow things down,
and to make that hugedifference, you know.
Sometimes it's scary thinkingthat my predecessor engineers
built so much concrete structure
(21:34):
that we're trying toundo in some respects.
- Yeah, great. All right,thank you very much.
(indistinct)
(audience applaud)
- Maree now turns to herright to yarn with Dan Tatton
from Creative Victoria.
Dan comes from a backgroundin policy, strategy,
and project managementin both not-for-profit
and public sectors.
(21:55):
He's been a board member,chair community groups
and advised in the departmentof premier and cabinet.
He believes the key to change
is strategies that focuson community engagement.
- Dan and I have workedtogether in the past
and over the last few weeks
we've got to know each other a bit more.
And I was surprised to hearthat you took a career change
(22:17):
since we've worked on a job together.
I wanna know where andwas that intentional?
- It was, I was as surprised as anyone
that I had a career changeon kind of a refugee
from a law degree a long time ago.
And during COVID, midst of lockdown,
a great opportunity
at a fantastic small not-for-profitcalled 3000acres came up
(22:40):
and I think I only feltpermission to apply
because I never thought I'd get the job.
So always be ambitious in that sense.
Just put in your applicationand decide later,
and got offered the job andjust had a fantastic year there.
So 3000acres, it's avery small not-for-profit
(23:02):
and it's mission is to help more people
grow more food in more places.
And it was a real left turn for me.
I'd been in public servant forabout six years at that point
and I don't know what the context was,
whether it was just lockdown,we had no sense of agency.
People were telling us when we could
and couldn't leave our home, et cetera.
(23:23):
So it felt like the one part of my life
that I could influence as well.
And so just jumped on with that
and completely differentexperience from the public service
and just got a lot of energy from that,
from a small not-for-profit.
I think it takes upquite a bit more energy
(23:45):
but you're investing moreenergy, you get more energy back.
And we did some...
Managed to pull offsome wonderful projects
during that time.
And I'm really focused on community.
I think when I approach sustainability,
and I think if you're lookingto get into sustainability
find your kind of what your attraction is,
what you're aligned with.
(24:06):
For me it was community gardening as well.
And there's a picture up there on the wall
and that's I think second from the right
and that's a picture ofa big truck at series
with six tonnes of olives in it.
And that was a projectcalled Olives to Oil
that we've run a few times
and Olives to Oil was not my idea,
(24:28):
credit where credit's due.
The idea was that...
Well, a couple of anglessustainability wise.
One was that there's asort of reminding people
that we have a lot of resources around us
that we just take for granted,and that was the resource.
There was olives on people's trees
so we just arranged foranyone who had an olive tree
(24:50):
or who had a neighbourwho had an olive tree
just to turn up to acouple of drop off sites
and give us your olives.
And then we would take themaway to get them pressed
into olive oil.
And then a few weeks later after that,
when we distribute it to you.
It was just fantastic weekend,
people cancelled aboutthree times due to lockdowns
(25:11):
often on Thursday night.
Just wonderful.
You get kids turned up with500 grammes in a shopping bag
and then you get sort of 80 year old nana
from around the cornerfrom me who turn up,
try to give you 20kilogrammes of olives as well
so you get free oil.
So we do that and itjust reminded everyone
(25:33):
of power of community, I think,
coming together for a collective purpose
and people who lived fivedoors down from each other
for 20 years who had neverreally met, came together.
So it was, yeah, big leftturn for me but wonderful.
- Did that impact yourthinking about low food mass
(25:54):
in a broader sense?
- Yeah it did. I mean thatwas one of the driving forces
for 3000acres was food security.
And a big part of thatis accessibility of food
within your local area.
And yeah, I've noticed at home as well
we grow more of our food.
We've got a big list of 27sort of sustainability goals
(26:19):
on the fridge and theyrange from everything from,
I think we've got growth,this year grow three foods
that you've never grownbefore, grow more food,
build a cubby house,divest from major bank,
break up with the supermarket.
So it's kind of workingour way through that
and it's been a good reminder
that you don't need todo anything particularly.
(26:40):
Don't look for the silver bullet, I think,
to be sustainable,
there's all aspects oflife have an impact.
So all aspects of life area bit of an opportunity.
And I'm kind of feeling spreadthin a bit at the moment,
but I run a...
I don't know how it came about.
But I run a Fridaymorning playgroup for kids
(27:00):
'cause I've got two young daughters
and we do lots of stuffabout sustainability.
It's just great, get themyoung, get them involved.
So it's just a default.
The way they grow up as wellon a committee for a kinder.
So we push to get a sustainabilityorder audit for that.
So it's big waste and energy thing.
So it doesn't have tobe a big career change.
(27:24):
All aspects of life there'san opportunity to reduce it.
But do, do a careerchange, go and explore it.
And yes, don't wait for the perfect role
'cause you don't know what it is yet.
And also if you like me,you'll just be paralysed
with indecision waiting for it
and it gives you an excusenot to go out and explore.
(27:45):
Yeah, so just go outand try something new.
(indistinct)
Yeah and I think once you've...
Just head in a direction.
They talk about navigation aeroplanes
and they say they don't go from A to B,
they kind of go and thenthey realign and do that
and that's kind of what you do.
You get to another position,
you've got a better vantagepoint, you've got new horizons.
(28:06):
And I think when you jump,
you find a community wherever you land
and they help you modelwhere you might go next
and you just get a goodsense of solidarity.
- I like that phrase.
Wherever you jump is a communitywhere you land. It's good.
- That's the end quote (indistinct).
You've obviously got little children.
(28:27):
How do you feel aboutthe footprint you make
and the opportunity toleave a lesser footprint
for your kids or to livea more sustainable life
with your foot on the brakerather than an accelerator?
How do you do that?
- Yeah, I think until recently
(28:48):
I've felt like that's a burden question.
Like, you know, it'sjust how do you cast that
in any other way
than it's a negative kindof framework as well.
So it's always felt like a bit of a burden
you need to work through.
But I think just with kids
it feels like a way toexpand your world a bit.
I think when we talk about sustainability,
(29:08):
it's all about deprivationand reduction of harm,
which it is.
But I think there's real opportunity
to kind of look at how youlive your life and change it.
And I think much of impact ismaterial through consumption
and that's not kind ofwhat makes for a rich life.
So I think we've found with the kids,
(29:32):
you know, they joke about momand dad work at the op shop
'cause we go to the op shop all the time,
but that's kind of the way they are.
And I think just trylittle things all the time.
People talk about the bin liner moment.
So you're freaking out aboutyour impact on the planet
(29:55):
and you don't know where to start
and maybe I'll never flyagain, it's all too big.
But then you start with, ohmaybe, I won't use a bin liner.
And then you slowly, uh,that was pretty easy.
And then you move on to the next thing,
and you start reaching outto other people as well
and you get involvedin the local food swap
or something like that
and it just kind of cascades from there.
(30:17):
And the sense of possibility
once you've taken that first step
I think just expands your ambitions
and your sense of agencyand capacity builds as well,
I think as well.
- Dan now turns to Sam Peart,
Hassell's global head ofsustainability to yarn.
As you'll hear Sam, likeall of our speakers,
lives and breathes sustainability.
(30:37):
With work spanning 20 different countries,
steering sustainability strategies
and initiatives across a widevariety of building typologies
and now helping Hassell
to innovate and embed sustainability.
- I feel like you'reprobably the more entrenched
in terms of linear sustainability career.
(30:58):
Like it feels a bit capitalas sustainability career.
So I just wanna perhaps
for the benefit of some of the people here
who are starting out,
just to talk about whatappears like a linear journey
but which I'm sure is not,just where you started from,
how you've worked through it.
- So I actually startedin an architecture degree
and this is something I'vesaid that I'll only say
(31:20):
to people at the pub over a beer,
but now you've put me on the spot
in front of a lot of people.
(indistinct chatters)
So I was changing universities
and I was at the pub when Iwas filling in the paperwork
to change universities
and ended up in an engineering degree.
So that's about the kink inthe linear that happened.
(31:43):
But off the back of that,
ended up at Arup for an internship.
Started in what was the ESDteam before ESD was about
and then kind of went from there.
So 14 years with them all about the place.
Then was lucky enough tobe given an opportunity
at Development Victoria onceI got back into the country,
(32:06):
after I did Sydney,Singapore, Los Angeles,
and then Melbourne.
And that kind of gave me a little bit
of a different perspectivegoing from a consultancy,
consultant type roleinto not only a developer
but a government developer.
Kind of change my tap a littlebit and that's why I met you,
which is fantastic.
(32:26):
And then we kind of draggedClare into the fold.
So I did two years, ninemonths, Development Victoria
with a really motivated, awesome crew.
Developing up theirsustainability strategy,
building a team.
Clare's taken on that mantle,
doing a much better job thanI was, which is fantastic.
And then Hassell kindly letme stroll through these doors
(32:49):
and we've been hanging out with these guys
for the last six months,which has been fabulous.
- So usual self-deprecation scenario.
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
- So just on that note,how do you influence?
You've been in what? Threepretty big organisations now,
how do you getsustainability on the agenda?
- Make friends and makephone calls basically.
(33:10):
What's been reallyinteresting moving from...
Yeah, Kat talked about...
It's an ethos, right?
It's not a job.
Clare talked about that as well,
actually we've all kindof talked about that
and we'll get to this bitwhen I get my turn as well.
But moving from or enteringthe workforce basically
(33:31):
in a box, in a, this persondoes this job and that's it,
everyone else does other jobs.
Then moving into an organisation
where it just was about active
or almost handing over agency
to a whole bunch of like250 really motivated people
with 45 projects.
It wasn't, here's howyou're going to do things.
(33:52):
It was, tell me aboutall your 45 projects.
And we did, we mapped all45 projects, is that right?
How can we help on every single project?
That was 45 projects andthen moved over to Hassell,
it's 700 people and 400 andsomething live projects.
And before I accepted the job,
and I think Gerard's here somewhere,
I was like, "All projects,all people or nothing."
(34:13):
And they're like, "Yeah,go on Sam. Good one."
(all laugh)
But again, coming in it'slike there is so much energy,
so much motivation, so manyruns on the board already
and it's not about me and ateam of people in the corner
doing sustainability.
It's about reminding everyonethat they've got the skills
and the power and theprojects and the networks.
(34:35):
All they need is alittle bit of confidence
and a little bit of asafety net and we're on.
So that's what I've beenkind of really enjoying
about the different roles
but also has been reallyhumbling along the way.
- Yeah, so somethingabout permission there.
Yeah, how do you give somebody permission?
It sounds like people needsometimes to be given permission
(34:57):
rather than give themselves permission.
- I think it's a really sorry state
that we've got ourselves into
that people need permission, right?
I had a conversation a coupleof months ago and someone...
I'd been working in governmentand someone said to me,
"I'm surprised you've movedinto a design practise
because I thought your otherrole would be more impactful."
I was really offended for myself
but also really offendedon behalf of the industry
(35:18):
that, that's the waywe think about things.
That the person with thetitle that's been in the box
for X years or X decades
is the one who's got thepermission to do this.
And so like I guess my push
and the push for thiswhole kind of discussion
and what we're trying to do at Hassell
is remove the need for permission.
And you know, Clare talkedabout like failure and successes
(35:40):
and sharing those with Mia.
I think that's really key.
I think remembering thatit's not just the box
you sit in behind your desk.
You can pick up thephone, bring people in,
you don't need permission.
If you're not sureabout the self-awareness
and authenticity that's comeup as well, pick up the phone,
someone's gonna be ready to help.
You've got the skills, the networks
(36:02):
and the platform to do something.
And we've all talked about
how we've done that kind ofin our own lives as well.
- So ask forgiveness, not permission.
- That's it. Done that one too many times.
(all laugh)
- And is there a cultural change
when you come into a new organisation?
So I feel like you've beena bit recruited in a way,
(36:23):
so that your reputationprocedure will be...
So I feel like theorganisations are perhaps primed
or I think they'reprimed before you arrive.
- No, look, I think it's usuallya cultural change for me,
which is always what'sso exciting about it.
so the first threemonths at Development...
The first three months here
I was basically just chuckinghours in people's calendars.
(36:45):
Having one on ones askingwhat are you working on?
What motivates you?
I've been asked not to swear,but what pisses you off?
Like you know, I've also been asked
not to talk about beer andI've done that already,
so you know.
(all laugh)
It's just getting to know theheartbeat of an organisation,
the people that workwithin that organisation
and I need to adapt in orderto kind of like have influence
(37:08):
but not influence people.
It is about buildingconfidence, building agency.
If people are like, Ireally wanna do this,
but I don't quite have the tools,
it's like, well let's sit down for an hour
and figure out what you need.
I'll find a way, if Ican't give it to you,
I'll find somebody who canand we'll get on with the job.
So I think for me it's not about
kind of the difference in culture.
(37:28):
It's for me really aboutadapting to, I guess the space
that I've been given to walk into,
understanding what myplace is in that community,
and doing what I can to supportthem to do it on their own.
- Seems like there's amindset as well as a skillset
and I wonder if there'speople around the room
who are probably starting out.
(37:48):
People talk aboutconfidence as a skill set
as well as formal qualificationslike Clare has as well.
So is it your experiencethat just the energy
is bringing energy to itand a bit of a passion
is important to formal qualifications?
- I think that's important
but whenever I've kind of,
when ever I've spoken toanyone in this organisation,
(38:09):
it's just about two things.
Self awareness.
If you know how to do it, crack on.
If you don't, find someone who might.
If they don't, they canconnect you with someone else.
And authenticity.
If you didn't do it, don't say you did it.
If we did kind of learn something
instead of driving something,let's talk about that.
The successes and failures piece.
If everyone plays by those two rules
(38:30):
then we all have a role to play, right?
And if we all just can't like rock up,
either to pick up the phone
or sit across a table fromsomeone with self awareness
and authenticity, thenthat's super powerful.
All of a sudden you'veactivated in honour.
So I think that's it from my perspective.
- Brilliant.
- Thanks.
- Thanks for (indistinct).
- Great, I love it, I love it!
(38:51):
- And finally, Sam turnsto Kat to yarn with her,
completing the circle back at the heart.
- So we have heard a lotabout what you do now
and you've been a fabulousfacilitator and host thus far.
But tell us about Kat your story,
where you came from and howyou got to where you are now.
(39:12):
- I was a PE teacher in a formal life,
so don't hold that against me.
I always stand up for whatI believe in no matter what.
My father always instilled that in me.
My father's the aboriginal side,
my mother is the Irish-English side.
When I was teaching alot, as a peer teacher
I also taught geographyand I could always see
there was nothing taught about my culture
(39:32):
and it was really hard.
And I come from an erawhere we weren't allowed
to say you're aboriginal,
weren't allowed to speak our language.
It was taboo.
And as soon as youmention you're aboriginal
people would shut off from youand that was really hurtful.
So I had to pretend tobe something I wasn't.
And so as I said,
I was always in searchof where I belonged.
(39:52):
And after a while ofteaching, which I loved,
I thought "No, I've got to do something."
So that was my breakthrough to say no,
I've got to stand firm,
I wanna find out andhelp people understand
that connection to country
because it was thatconnection to that country
that made me get up from, you know,
a job that was secure to go travel.
So travelling around Australia,I started up my own business
(40:14):
and started working withBHP and Bureau Veritas
which are here, Coca-Cola
and I was working with their HR
to try to get aboriginalpeople into their companies,
and my first job was with a company
that was their South Africanteam, white South African.
(40:35):
So here comes this aboriginalwoman speaking language
and I looked around and I heard them say,
"From South Africa?" Andthere was dead silence
and we all just stared at each other
and went this is gonna be a hard yakka.
So, but after a while Isaid it was a big challenge
of eight months of gettingthem to understand culture
and why we had to embedit in the company itself.
(40:56):
But from that I said Iwas an aboriginal woman.
In my culture it was you have males,
you have certain otherthings, you have females,
aboriginal men, other people,
and aboriginal women areright down here and still are.
So I was thinking bugger that.
So I just thought, "What can I do?"
(41:17):
So I said "Okay, I'll do it myself."
So I started that lonelyjourney of travelling Australia,
working with companies,
doing indigenous employment projects,
which is what the government called them,
getting funding and helping them to do it.
In the meantime I got to knowa lot of traditional owners
and elders, what was going on,
and I could always see country changing
(41:38):
and country was always talking to me.
We say it talks to us throughthe wind, through the leaves,
touching the tree, it talks to us.
And I could see it wassomething different about it
that we were slowly destroying it.
We were hurting mother.
So I thought "Okay, I'vegot to do something else
about that."
So I thought the best peopleto work with in projects
were architects.
(42:00):
(all chuckles)
So for me it was morelike getting architects
to understand that what you design
needs to work with country,needs to connect with country,
be a part of country, butalso needs to tell a story.
It can't be just a building a structure,
it needs to be living.
(42:22):
I did say I did stalk youa little bit but not much.
Living building and you're right,
every building should beliving and having a story.
And that's what it needs to be.
So that's what (indistinct) life.
And coming from notmany people in my space
to now there's quite a fewpeople, which is great,
it was hardcore because no onewanted to listen to a female,
(42:42):
an aboriginal female.
And even my own peoplethought that was hard,
I shouldn't be doing that.
So I was deemed a wanderingauntie and still am
because that's my place.
I travel a lot, I haven't found home yet.
I do see Victoria as very welcoming.
So thank you very muchcoming from Western Australia
over here to your lovely weather.
So in shorts, mind you in themiddle of winter from Perth.
(43:07):
But it's been a very difficult journey.
But today marks somethingreally big in my 24 year career
as a First Nation's advisor and that is,
I never thought I'd see theday where an aboriginal female
would be hosting something like this
because we're always left out.
And that's why I don't goto a lot of women's events
because I'm not included really.
(43:29):
So to me, this is sustainability
because you're sustainingour culture, our beliefs
and I'm able to share that withyou and call you my allies,
my brothers and sisters.
So thank you for doingso, that's in short.
- Thank you.
(all applaud)
Thank you so much for sharing that.
And thank you so muchfor agreeing to host-
- Pleasure-
- As well with our wonderful mayor.
(43:53):
We talked a lot thenabout kind of describing,
well sustainability is kind of...
Countries is kind of thequote and you talked about it,
we've all talked aboutit a lot as an ethos
and you've talked about every building
should be a living buildingand those sorts of things.
How...
I've been working witha lot of the teams here
around not just slapping extra stuff on
(44:13):
or removing stuff during,you know, documentation
but altering the waythat we actually start,
evolving the way thatwe're setting ourselves up.
What advice can you giveon setting yourself up
to practise caring for country
and practise sustainabilityfrom the get go?
- I honestly believe throwaway what you've been taught
(44:35):
because it doesn't work.
And I can honestly say hand on my heart
and working with a lot of people here
and great new testimony, Iturn their world upside down.
(indistinct) where we throwout what you've been taught
about designing and that turn now,
which is out there nowdesigning with country,
which I never know where that's come from.
(44:55):
So for me it's, you need to listen.
And that's the hardest thingfor everybody is to sit down,
I come into my co-design,co-decide meetings
with digital learners whenI say don't bring a pen,
don't bring a pencil,I need you to sit there
and just listen to what we have to say.
Listen to the stories of countrythat we are gifting to you.
(45:20):
Listen to country andwhat she is saying to you,
and I've got a quote up thereand I firmly believe in that.
Mine is "Stop, breathe, connect.
But you need to listen to country."
And that way your designsare more creative.
But not just that youbring our stories to life
within the architecture,within the landscape,
(45:41):
within the biophilia.
So listen.
- What would you say? 'Cause were...
You know, a lot of the thingswe get is, it's too early,
it's too late, I don't have time.
How would you encouragepeople to take the time?
- I'd say early engagement is crucial.
I'm really firm on saying
(46:02):
to bring you on a cultural journey.
I'm there to help facilitate things
to make sure that you havethat wonderful experience
of knowing our culture.
But at the same timeyou're there firsthand.
So you're listening andhearing all these stories
and our elements andour protocols firsthand.
As a consultant, I'm not sayingit's gonna come through me,
then I'll tell you.
(46:23):
I want you to be there in that room
or wherever we are oncountry preferably to listen
so that you hear those storiesthe way that we tell things.
We are oral traditionalists.
And if you haven't figured outby now, I'm a story teller.
So, yeah, so the thing is
it's more about gettingin that early engagement
before you even think about designing.
Because if you don't havethat early engagement,
(46:45):
you're designing things thatyou think we want and it's not.
And I can tell you now,
it's not about the kid in the candy store
who can build the biggest building,
you can build the shiniest thing.
They're not stories of country.
Stories of country arethings that you can say
when you're designing, canyou hear it? Can you see it?
Can you smell it? Can you feel it?
(47:08):
That's connecting to country.
That's true designing thatearly engagement process.
And as I said, be respectful
because you've got to remember
you're being welcomed into their home.
We're knocking on thedoor, ringing the doorbell,
wait to be invited.
Don't go in there and change the channels
and move the furniture around
and raid the Tim Tams inthe fridge and, you know,
(47:30):
do all of that.
Just make sure we have permission first.
And if you don't know, simply ask first.
- I am going to steal thefinal question you asked Clare
'cause I thought it was fabulous.
And yeah, what is one thingthat everyone in this room
can do tomorrow?
(47:50):
- I would love everyone to go outside.
If possible take your shoes off.
I know it's cold and I knowit's wet, I know it's raining,
but that's country and feelcountry beneath your feet.
I want you to once I say,stop, connect to country.
Taking that breath and reallyfeel and let yourself know,
(48:13):
I wanna know what you hear.
What can you smell? What can you feel?
That's my takeaway becausethat's when you can truly say,
I sort of understand your culture.
I know where you are coming from.
Hey, wouldn't that be greatafter that big C word,
we're not going to mention the C word
after (indistinct) years.
(48:33):
Coming back into the city,coming back out of our homes,
which we really like now
because we don't wantto go back into work,
is experiencing whatit's like to come back
and that beautiful experience of saying
country is inside the buildings as well.
It's everywhere now.
And you can tell thattoday, everyone is here.
We need to experience country.
(48:54):
So take your shoes off,put them on the ground,
scrunch them up and really feel country.
That's my takeaway.
- Amazing. Thank you very much, Kat.
- My pleasure, my pleasure.
(audience applaud)
- Okay, so my takeaway from this,
when we talk about Know Your Place,
it's experiences likewe've talked about today,
(49:17):
it's about, you know, your passive house.
How do we do this?
How do we do somethingthat can be so simple
but make it so connected to country
and the fact that, you know,it may take a bit more money,
it may take a bit more of thought process
into building homes, building buildings,
(49:38):
but it's the long term gain.
Is it the person that standsup in the room and says
all that rubbish doesn'thave to be the rubbish.
It has a place, it can have a purpose.
Remember to put out whichbin's a correct bin.
And it can be sharing afood, recycling our food.
I go past lemon trees all thetime and I wanna get a pinch
(49:59):
because they're a dollar a lemon.
The thing is there's so much food wastage,
what do we do about that?
There's so many things we can do.
We are privileged that we have food.
And the simple thing of coming in
and standing firm on yourprinciples saying no,
this has to be top of the list.
Sustainability needs tobe top of the list now.
(50:21):
And for me listening allthis, it resonates so much
because we've been doingit for thousands of years.
And now I finally hear you all saying,
not to say I'm right, Kat,I'd like to hear that.
But the fact is that you'relistening to our culture,
that you're now taking it seriously
and it only takes small stepsto make one big footprint.
(50:46):
So everyone can startthinking in your role,
in the workplace, in your role at home,
in your role in community.
How can you know yourplace, share your place,
but also keep it going.
As I said, we can no longer heal country,
it's too far, but we can connect.
(51:09):
We can help stop what we aredoing destroying country.
- The feeling in the roomon the night was amazing.
I'd say it was quite hopefulwhat the future can hold
and having all theseyoung women and some men
be involved in such adifficult topic of discussion
was really inspiring.
(51:30):
And having that attendancein person was extra special.
It's so easy to feel overwhelmed
with the topic of sustainability
and listening to the panellists tonight,
really they broke it down for us
in their career and experiences
and told a story on howthey've had some failures
and successes and playing onthe theme Know Your Place.
(51:51):
It doesn't matter what yourrole is, you can do something.
I think it's really importantto ask good questions
or even bad questions.
Having the topic out there,
even if you don't know theanswer is really important.
And it doesn't matter
if you have all the knowledgein the world or nothing.
That's how you can make change.
And over time you might buildskills up like our panellists.
(52:13):
You contribute in a certain way,
but it just starts with that one question.
And that's a small step, butit's in the right direction.
(upbeat music)
Thank you to our brilliantspeakers, Kat, Sam, Dan, Maree,
and Clare, and our eventguests for their enthusiasm,
questions and support.
We had a lot of fun.
(52:34):
This event was organisedby the incredible women
of WomenIN at Hassell.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent,
audio support from Myles AV.
Head to our website to find out more
about sustainability at Hassell.
Thanks for listening.
(upbeat music)
(upbeat music)
- Hi, this is "Hassell Talks,"
a podcast series looking atour changing and complex world,
and the opportunities for design
to create a better place for everyone.
It's a series that'sunashamedly optimistic
about creating a beautiful,inclusive, and resilient future.
(00:23):
I'm Mia Willemsen and I'm asenior architect at Hassell.
For the last year
I have been working withour sustainability team,
working on some really cool stuff,
like a sustainability framework,
sustainably focused researchand sharing knowledge,
particularly listeningto First Nations people.
But you know, as I do, thatthere is so much more designers
(00:45):
and individuals can do,
which brings me to theepisode you're about to hear.
I recently co-hosteda sustainability event
organised by Hassell's WomenIN group.
The event was called Know Your Place,
a tongue in cheek call to confidence
for women working in the design industry
to know how powerfultheir role and place is
(01:06):
and the change we want to make
when it comes to sustainability.
In this episode, you're aboutto get an exclusive insight
into that event held infront of more than 150 guests
in our Melbourne studio,
a converted 1880s warehouse
in Melbourne's Little Collins Street.
In the centre of our studio,
we created a yarning or dialogue circle.
(01:29):
Yarning circles are used in Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islandercultures, and around the world,
as a way to learn from a collective group
without hierarchy to buildrespectful relationships,
and to preserve and passon culture knowledge
in a safe and accountable way.
(indistinct chatters)
Our five speakers, who I'll introduce,
(01:49):
are sitting in thecircle facing each other
with the roles ofinterviewer and interviewee
relaying around the circle.
The audience, made up of women and men
from right across the designand construction industry,
are outside the circlelistening, interacting,
and later asking questions.
As our five speakers talk,
you'll hear about theirmotivations, failures, successes
(02:12):
and ideas for inspiring everyday action
in environmental andsocial sustainability.
They encouraged us tobe brave enough to fail,
to talk about our own journey,
which empowers others tomake good in their own way.
Our evening began with anacknowledgement of country
from Kat Rodwell.
Kat is a Ngunnawal woman
(02:32):
who facilitates co-design processes
between traditional owner groupsand aboriginal communities,
design teams and projects stakeholders.
Kat's work encourages us tostop, breathe, and connect,
to help us better facilitateconnection to country.
Her consultancy BalertMura means strong pathway,
and she was the heart and centre
(02:53):
facilitating our panel discussion.
(Kat speaks in foreign)
- You are on WurundjeriWoi-wurrung country,
the land of people that have been here
for well over 60,000 years,
the oldest living culture in the world.
And I am so honouredas a Ngunnawal bullan,
(03:16):
which means Ngunnawal womanto be on Wurundjeri country
because their ancestors are everywhere.
Beneath your feet, our history sleeps.
It's what you see, what youhear, the wind, what you feel,
even the rain, what you smell.
(03:40):
That is country.
And we thank the ancestors
for allowing us to walk oncountry and to work on country.
To all the elders for sharingthe stories, the knowledge,
the protocols with us becauseyou are all creative people.
And my respect to you forembedding these stories of country
in architecture, in designs,in the urban designs,
(04:03):
in everything we do, we walk together.
In my country we say(speaking in foreign),
which means you are welcome
to put your footprints on my country.
We walk together.
So from Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung,
I say thank you on behalf of all of this.
(04:23):
- Kat turns to her rightand begins her yarn
with one of the founding members
of the AustralianPassive House Association
and certified passivehouse trainer, Clare Parry.
Clare has a backgroundin mechanical engineering
with a portfolio ofsustainability accreditations
right across the Australianbuilding industry.
She lives and breathes asustainability methodology,
(04:45):
working towards a framework
that makes sustainabilityeasier for everyone.
- Country is sick. We canno longer heal country.
That's off the table now,
but we can connect tocountry to stop the hurt,
to stop the bleed.
So that's our mission tonight.
(05:06):
So let's work together todayand let's make a difference.
So Clare, I want to knowfor me an aboriginal person,
we say country is our mother
and we are connected on so many levels.
So when country's sick,we are actually sick,
(05:27):
and we can see a huge change in country.
And you talk aboutsustainability, to sustain.
We're the first architects,
we're the first sustainable people.
So I know what we can do.
What is a clear path...
What do you see as a clearpathway for sustainability?
- Yeah, I think it's quite contentious
(05:48):
because we start to hear
and feel free to approach me in the break,
but regeneration isn't the new buzzword.
I'll say buzzword because in my mind
sustainability isn't aboutwe're here, let's keep going,
this is great.
It's about connectingback to care for country.
And I think I don't know that well enough.
(06:11):
I rely on first peoplesto help us with that.
But I definitely wanna make space
and open up that space for,you know, first peoples
to help us to understandwhat sustainability is
from a care for country perspective.
I feel it. I know that I feel it.
(06:33):
So it's not about a thingthat I do for my job.
I'm from Northwest Tassie.
- We won't hold thatagainst you, but keep going.
(all laugh)
- But I tell everyone that.
And if you've asked me anything about me,
I will have told you thatbecause I still feel it
even though I left there a long time ago.
But that connection tocountry is very real
(06:56):
and watching the earthand country struggle
is very debilitating to me.
So I find it really hard
to actually to keep going sometimes.
- Yeah and for me, just listening to you
and the way you speak,
you understand that connection to country.
(07:18):
So in your role, I didread a little tiny bit,
so I'm gonna admit that now.
But you talk about even anyone of us in our home life
or, you know, the commonperson can be sustainable
and can live sustainable andtheir houses can be redesigned.
(07:40):
I've worked in the buildingindustry, construction industry
and sometimes it's likehitting a brick wall,
literally sometimes,
because they don't understandthat to design with country,
as you all say,
sustainability really, really needs
to be at the top of that list.
So what do you do in your role?
(08:00):
- I spend every day
trying to get everyone tounderstand that, which is fun.
(all laugh)
But I felt a shift,
and it was probably justbefore COVID started,
but COVID really accelerated that shift.
Sustainability was (indistinct)
(08:22):
But sustainability wasprobably the second last person
in the room to be asked in ateam meeting like, you know,
okay, the issues this week are...
(indistinct) was last? Sorry.
(all laugh)
But the shift has beensubstantial and it's been dramatic
and it's only getting moreand more front and centre.
(08:46):
And I might live in a bubble,
but I don't see a single news article.
Might be reading specific news articles,
but that doesn't talk aboutthe impacts of climate change
and sustainability andhealth and wellbeing,
which are all linked andeverything is coming back
to we are doing a really shit job
(09:08):
of caring for country, yeah.
- In one sentence...
Now, I'm putting you onthe spot for this one.
In one sentence, sum upsomething easy all of us could do
towards a sustainable life.
- I think reconnect.
(09:31):
- Perfect. That's one word, I love it.
(indistinct) You're good, you're good.
- Become more efficientand reconnect, yeah.
- Yeah, I like that because I said,
you're right because sustainability,
people always put it last
because they put it inthe too hard baskets.
And it's not really,it's the simple things
as you're just saying,you know, reuse, recycle.
We forget that, and you tendto put that into, you know,
(09:55):
houses and what you're talking about.
So I love that you got thataccreditation about that
and putting people on the spot to say
you need to be accountable
and we all need to be accountable to this.
- Yeah, a hundred percent.
I think all thoseaccreditations are just 'cause
I was looking for what'sthe right answer here.
And when I started mycareer it's like well,
you need all theseaccreditations to do your job.
(10:17):
And I was like, well,these aren't the right ones
because they don't seem to work.
How about these ones?
And I kept sort of following this path
and now I've got 15 accreditations.
(all laugh)
Wasn't intentional but yeah,
still looking for theright answer to be honest.
- So what is the accreditationthough? What it's about?
- I've got a bunch.
(Clare chuckles)
- What is the best one?
Pick one of them.- Just the one?
- Yeah.
(10:37):
- I mean the one that I hold
probably front and centre for me
because I've chosen tospecialise quite specifically
is Passive House.
And it's really pursuingwhat is the best we can do
with a particular built form.
It's not always the right answer
and it's not the only thing we need to do,
but it is the thing that we do so badly
(11:00):
that could make the biggestdifference, I think,
so, yeah, that's the one I've got.
- I love it. No, it's good.
I love what you do becauseyou stand up and as I said,
you're not someone who's going to wilt
when you've gone throughso many experiments
to get this right and we'renever going to get it right
because if we become perfect
then there's no more roomfor improvement, is there?
(11:22):
- So, yeah, I mean if you hadn't known me
when I was about 17,
you could have pushed me overwith a feather, you know.
I think it's taken a lot of time
to get the confidence to actuallyfind that space, you know,
in a project, in a meetingroom and in my work.
But I think if you just sortof keep asking questions,
keep following, you know, basically.
(11:44):
And that's the single pieceof advice I'd give to anybody
starting their careeris follow your passion.
I know that's pretty trite
but find what it means for you, yeah.
- (indistinct) Thank you Clare.
- Fantastic. Thank you.
(audience applaud)
- And now Clare turns to her right
to yarn with Maree Marshall.
Maree is the director of waste management
(12:05):
and circular economy at WSP,
leading a team acrossAustralia and New Zealand.
Her zero waste strategiesare both innovative
and celebrated.
Arming precincts, councilsand everything in between
with action plans thatencompass waste hierarchy
and circular economy principles.
Maree's knowledge of theworld of waste is incredible.
(12:27):
She knows who generatesit, what they generate,
where it ends up andhow it can be avoided.
- Maree, so I first met you
when I was in meetings with you and Sam
and I couldn't get a word in edgeways,
which is why we don'tknow each other very well.
(all laugh)
But what became really, really clear
was you're passionate abouttaking what your job is
(12:50):
and what is meaningfulto you into your life.
And I remember one conversation
where you and Sam were talkingabout trading fruit, I think
to make alcoholic beverages.
- Oh no.
(all laugh)
Can you tell us moreabout sort the translation
of your passion into how you live?
- Yes. I did offer Sam myapricots and my grapefruit
(13:17):
to make a brew, that is very true.
I am a very much a grassroots person.
I have embarrassed myfamily on many a trip.
Could you stand beside that bin,
photograph the size (indistinct)?
(all laugh)
But to the point wheremy youngest got to prep
and went up to the teacherand went, "Which bin?"
(13:40):
And he was horrified.
There was only one and hewasn't gonna put it in the bin.
And I thought, OMG, it's working.
I do, I go home every dayknowing that I've influenced
or changed or improved the lives of people
who will live in thebuildings that I design.
(14:01):
Waste is one of those disciplines
where my decisions and my team's decisions
and our thinking outside the box
will carry on for thelife of that building
in an operational mode.
Were those shoots easy to use?
Did you have the right decisions?
Was it adaptable
when the government'snow moved the goal post,
we've got four bins in Victoria,
was the design ready forthat? Can it change for that?
(14:23):
And I go back knowing thatI've made an enormous impact
and for those of you whoconnected with me on LinkedIn,
you'll know that I choppedup a rainwater tank
that I've had repaired twicerecently and it's my woodstock.
I didn't move it, I didn'tdiscard it, I repurposed it.
(14:44):
And there's a photo of me inreally tatty gardening jeans
and a paint coveredshirt with a power drill.
And I posted it because Ido, I believe in what I do.
- I think that's awesome. I love it.
- Don't go searching that place please.
(all laugh)
- I think that there's alot of power in imperfection
(15:06):
and in the imperfectionof everybody's approach
to sustainability specifically.
How do you feel about that statement?
- It's very, very true.
If we were waiting for perfection,
we wouldn't be preparedto think outside the box.
My team aren't drilled, don'trepeat the design to me.
(15:26):
I wanna see an improvement,
I wanna see alternate thinking.
How are we gonna get to the next step?
And the comment came upjust before, sustainability,
to sustain is to keep it the same level.
Well, hang on, I wantimprovement not to sustain.
I want to put the accelerator on,
remove things from the system.
(15:48):
I want avoidance,recycling's too late, right?
If you've used it and nowyou're gonna recycle it,
too late, way too late.
You had a decision to make much earlier
than to avoid or to refuse and to rethink.
Did you make that decision
before you put the shopping bag in the car
or walk to the shop, right? Avoid it.
(16:08):
If you were thinking aboutrecycling that plastic bag,
you're too far down the chain.
So I think it's exceptionally important.
- Yeah. Absolutely.
Tell us about how yougot to where you are.
Did you start here
and is this where youthought you'd end up?
- No. I only failed one subject at uni
that was hydraulics and thenI joined the Board of Works.
I'm old.
(16:29):
I joined the Board of Worksand I started in hydraulics.
And I actually started in rock beaching,
the Frankston Water SportsCentre, the dam burst,
Maree rebuilt it.
So nothing sustainable.
And I had a boss who he saidto me, "You're very green."
(16:50):
I thought it meant naive. I had no idea.
I was like four years out of uni.
He meant I belonged in a green industry.
So I was very fortunate to work overseas
and I highly recommend it to anyone
who can take secondment ora travelling opportunity.
You learn an immense amountabout you, your culture
(17:12):
and your offering.
And I came home and I wasworking for a politician
and eventually I just had toget off that rollercoaster.
I said I can't do this anymore.
So I did intentional careerchange. I cut my pay by 50%.
I knew I needed to go andwork in a feel good industry.
(17:35):
I needed to give back,you know what I mean?
To my local community,
I needed to give back to me and my family.
And so I went to work for local government
and I ended up in the environment team
and about the secondproject was to do with waste
and I've now been inwaste for over 25 years.
So I knew that I'd found my place
that I can make a differenceand that I believe in.
(17:57):
- And one thing you're really good at is,
how do I say this politely?
Making yourself known in meetings?
(all laugh)
And we talked earlier about how we...
Know Your Place is quite triggering to me,
but finding your own space and place,
how do you do that for others?
(18:21):
- That was quite a challengefor me. You're right.
I am a talker and so my biggest challenge
is to keep to the time and I admit that.
But as I've become a manager,
I now watch other people
who are trying to find the quiet time,
the break in the conversationand how to get into that.
(18:42):
And so now I'm much more aware
about intentionally askingpeople into that conversation
to make sure we're all heard.
Because I used to go to leadoff meetings,
inception meetings, W, waste,
last on the agenda aftersustainability, yeah?
And I'd intentionally wear red.
(19:03):
I wasn't gonna disappear inthat crowd of black students.
(indistinct)
I needed to make sure, my discipline...
Yes we're small, but we havea high impact on that job.
You're not gonna get a planning permit
with (indistinct).
And so I had to fight myway into that discussion.
I don't have to have that fight anymore.
(19:24):
Because yes, I'm very, very fortunate
and very humbled by theacknowledgement that I get
into meetings.
Most people are aware of me,the girl in red, curly hair
who turns up before I comeand that's very warming
to know that I feel like I belong there.
(19:45):
Which is a bit aboutKnow Your Place, right?
You become very humble
and you don't need thatbig introduction anymore.
But that took a lot of work.
But more importantly,bring a buddy, right?
Today we brought a buddy.
Bring in the younger crowd,
bring in people from the outside
and make sure they're welcome
and involved in the conversation.
And I see that as a really big part
(20:07):
of my current role as youprogress in your career.
- The sustainability space
and probably the space you'reworking in specifically
is changing rapidly.
How do you handle notknowing the answer sometimes?
- That is a really good question.
My husband was horrified
that I actually said toa client very recently,
(20:29):
"I need to think about that."It's very un-me, right?
I'm a fly by the seatin my pants, and yeah.
And back my judgement , but occasionally
I do need to say to peopleI need a moment to think.
To put it in perspective,
to see that it aligns
and that I'm not gonna jeopardise
(20:51):
another component by my actions.
I think we have to be that more holistic
and especially as things aremoving at a very fast pace,
we all don't have the knowledge.
We're doing an incredibleamount of training
and expanding our knowledge at the moment.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're in super economy space
(21:12):
or whether you're in the material space
and how are we coming together.
It's even more important nowthat we are working together
because we've got our footand the brake pretty hard
trying to slow things down,
and to make that hugedifference, you know.
Sometimes it's scary thinkingthat my predecessor engineers
built so much concrete structure
(21:34):
that we're trying toundo in some respects.
- Yeah, great. All right,thank you very much.
(indistinct)
(audience applaud)
- Maree now turns to herright to yarn with Dan Tatton
from Creative Victoria.
Dan comes from a backgroundin policy, strategy,
and project managementin both not-for-profit
and public sectors.
(21:55):
He's been a board member,chair community groups
and advised in the departmentof premier and cabinet.
He believes the key to change
is strategies that focuson community engagement.
- Dan and I have workedtogether in the past
and over the last few weeks
we've got to know each other a bit more.
And I was surprised to hearthat you took a career change
(22:17):
since we've worked on a job together.
I wanna know where andwas that intentional?
- It was, I was as surprised as anyone
that I had a career changeon kind of a refugee
from a law degree a long time ago.
And during COVID, midst of lockdown,
a great opportunity
at a fantastic small not-for-profitcalled 3000acres came up
(22:40):
and I think I only feltpermission to apply
because I never thought I'd get the job.
So always be ambitious in that sense.
Just put in your applicationand decide later,
and got offered the job andjust had a fantastic year there.
So 3000acres, it's avery small not-for-profit
(23:02):
and it's mission is to help more people
grow more food in more places.
And it was a real left turn for me.
I'd been in public servant forabout six years at that point
and I don't know what the context was,
whether it was just lockdown,we had no sense of agency.
People were telling us when we could
and couldn't leave our home, et cetera.
(23:23):
So it felt like the one part of my life
that I could influence as well.
And so just jumped on with that
and completely differentexperience from the public service
and just got a lot of energy from that,
from a small not-for-profit.
I think it takes upquite a bit more energy
(23:45):
but you're investing moreenergy, you get more energy back.
And we did some...
Managed to pull offsome wonderful projects
during that time.
And I'm really focused on community.
I think when I approach sustainability,
and I think if you're lookingto get into sustainability
find your kind of what your attraction is,
what you're aligned with.
(24:06):
For me it was community gardening as well.
And there's a picture up there on the wall
and that's I think second from the right
and that's a picture ofa big truck at series
with six tonnes of olives in it.
And that was a projectcalled Olives to Oil
that we've run a few times
and Olives to Oil was not my idea,
(24:28):
credit where credit's due.
The idea was that...
Well, a couple of anglessustainability wise.
One was that there's asort of reminding people
that we have a lot of resources around us
that we just take for granted,and that was the resource.
There was olives on people's trees
so we just arranged foranyone who had an olive tree
(24:50):
or who had a neighbourwho had an olive tree
just to turn up to acouple of drop off sites
and give us your olives.
And then we would take themaway to get them pressed
into olive oil.
And then a few weeks later after that,
when we distribute it to you.
It was just fantastic weekend,
people cancelled aboutthree times due to lockdowns
(25:11):
often on Thursday night.
Just wonderful.
You get kids turned up with500 grammes in a shopping bag
and then you get sort of 80 year old nana
from around the cornerfrom me who turn up,
try to give you 20kilogrammes of olives as well
so you get free oil.
So we do that and itjust reminded everyone
(25:33):
of power of community, I think,
coming together for a collective purpose
and people who lived fivedoors down from each other
for 20 years who had neverreally met, came together.
So it was, yeah, big leftturn for me but wonderful.
- Did that impact yourthinking about low food mass
(25:54):
in a broader sense?
- Yeah it did. I mean thatwas one of the driving forces
for 3000acres was food security.
And a big part of thatis accessibility of food
within your local area.
And yeah, I've noticed at home as well
we grow more of our food.
We've got a big list of 27sort of sustainability goals
(26:19):
on the fridge and theyrange from everything from,
I think we've got growth,this year grow three foods
that you've never grownbefore, grow more food,
build a cubby house,divest from major bank,
break up with the supermarket.
So it's kind of workingour way through that
and it's been a good reminder
that you don't need todo anything particularly.
(26:40):
Don't look for the silver bullet, I think,
to be sustainable,
there's all aspects oflife have an impact.
So all aspects of life area bit of an opportunity.
And I'm kind of feeling spreadthin a bit at the moment,
but I run a...
I don't know how it came about.
But I run a Fridaymorning playgroup for kids
(27:00):
'cause I've got two young daughters
and we do lots of stuffabout sustainability.
It's just great, get themyoung, get them involved.
So it's just a default.
The way they grow up as wellon a committee for a kinder.
So we push to get a sustainabilityorder audit for that.
So it's big waste and energy thing.
So it doesn't have tobe a big career change.
(27:24):
All aspects of life there'san opportunity to reduce it.
But do, do a careerchange, go and explore it.
And yes, don't wait for the perfect role
'cause you don't know what it is yet.
And also if you like me,you'll just be paralysed
with indecision waiting for it
and it gives you an excusenot to go out and explore.
(27:45):
Yeah, so just go outand try something new.
(indistinct)
Yeah and I think once you've...
Just head in a direction.
They talk about navigation aeroplanes
and they say they don't go from A to B,
they kind of go and thenthey realign and do that
and that's kind of what you do.
You get to another position,
you've got a better vantagepoint, you've got new horizons.
(28:06):
And I think when you jump,
you find a community wherever you land
and they help you modelwhere you might go next
and you just get a goodsense of solidarity.
- I like that phrase.
Wherever you jump is a communitywhere you land. It's good.
- That's the end quote (indistinct).
You've obviously got little children.
(28:27):
How do you feel aboutthe footprint you make
and the opportunity toleave a lesser footprint
for your kids or to livea more sustainable life
with your foot on the brakerather than an accelerator?
How do you do that?
- Yeah, I think until recently
(28:48):
I've felt like that's a burden question.
Like, you know, it'sjust how do you cast that
in any other way
than it's a negative kindof framework as well.
So it's always felt like a bit of a burden
you need to work through.
But I think just with kids
it feels like a way toexpand your world a bit.
I think when we talk about sustainability,
(29:08):
it's all about deprivationand reduction of harm,
which it is.
But I think there's real opportunity
to kind of look at how youlive your life and change it.
And I think much of impact ismaterial through consumption
and that's not kind ofwhat makes for a rich life.
So I think we've found with the kids,
(29:32):
you know, they joke about momand dad work at the op shop
'cause we go to the op shop all the time,
but that's kind of the way they are.
And I think just trylittle things all the time.
People talk about the bin liner moment.
So you're freaking out aboutyour impact on the planet
(29:55):
and you don't know where to start
and maybe I'll never flyagain, it's all too big.
But then you start with, ohmaybe, I won't use a bin liner.
And then you slowly, uh,that was pretty easy.
And then you move on to the next thing,
and you start reaching outto other people as well
and you get involvedin the local food swap
or something like that
and it just kind of cascades from there.
(30:17):
And the sense of possibility
once you've taken that first step
I think just expands your ambitions
and your sense of agencyand capacity builds as well,
I think as well.
- Dan now turns to Sam Peart,
Hassell's global head ofsustainability to yarn.
As you'll hear Sam, likeall of our speakers,
lives and breathes sustainability.
(30:37):
With work spanning 20 different countries,
steering sustainability strategies
and initiatives across a widevariety of building typologies
and now helping Hassell
to innovate and embed sustainability.
- I feel like you'reprobably the more entrenched
in terms of linear sustainability career.
(30:58):
Like it feels a bit capitalas sustainability career.
So I just wanna perhaps
for the benefit of some of the people here
who are starting out,
just to talk about whatappears like a linear journey
but which I'm sure is not,just where you started from,
how you've worked through it.
- So I actually startedin an architecture degree
and this is something I'vesaid that I'll only say
(31:20):
to people at the pub over a beer,
but now you've put me on the spot
in front of a lot of people.
(indistinct chatters)
So I was changing universities
and I was at the pub when Iwas filling in the paperwork
to change universities
and ended up in an engineering degree.
So that's about the kink inthe linear that happened.
(31:43):
But off the back of that,
ended up at Arup for an internship.
Started in what was the ESDteam before ESD was about
and then kind of went from there.
So 14 years with them all about the place.
Then was lucky enough tobe given an opportunity
at Development Victoria onceI got back into the country,
(32:06):
after I did Sydney,Singapore, Los Angeles,
and then Melbourne.
And that kind of gave me a little bit
of a different perspectivegoing from a consultancy,
consultant type roleinto not only a developer
but a government developer.
Kind of change my tap a littlebit and that's why I met you,
which is fantastic.
(32:26):
And then we kind of draggedClare into the fold.
So I did two years, ninemonths, Development Victoria
with a really motivated, awesome crew.
Developing up theirsustainability strategy,
building a team.
Clare's taken on that mantle,
doing a much better job thanI was, which is fantastic.
And then Hassell kindly letme stroll through these doors
(32:49):
and we've been hanging out with these guys
for the last six months,which has been fabulous.
- So usual self-deprecation scenario.
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
- So just on that note,how do you influence?
You've been in what? Threepretty big organisations now,
how do you getsustainability on the agenda?
- Make friends and makephone calls basically.
(33:10):
What's been reallyinteresting moving from...
Yeah, Kat talked about...
It's an ethos, right?
It's not a job.
Clare talked about that as well,
actually we've all kindof talked about that
and we'll get to this bitwhen I get my turn as well.
But moving from or enteringthe workforce basically
(33:31):
in a box, in a, this persondoes this job and that's it,
everyone else does other jobs.
Then moving into an organisation
where it just was about active
or almost handing over agency
to a whole bunch of like250 really motivated people
with 45 projects.
It wasn't, here's howyou're going to do things.
(33:52):
It was, tell me aboutall your 45 projects.
And we did, we mapped all45 projects, is that right?
How can we help on every single project?
That was 45 projects andthen moved over to Hassell,
it's 700 people and 400 andsomething live projects.
And before I accepted the job,
and I think Gerard's here somewhere,
I was like, "All projects,all people or nothing."
(34:13):
And they're like, "Yeah,go on Sam. Good one."
(all laugh)
But again, coming in it'slike there is so much energy,
so much motivation, so manyruns on the board already
and it's not about me and ateam of people in the corner
doing sustainability.
It's about reminding everyonethat they've got the skills
and the power and theprojects and the networks.
(34:35):
All they need is alittle bit of confidence
and a little bit of asafety net and we're on.
So that's what I've beenkind of really enjoying
about the different roles
but also has been reallyhumbling along the way.
- Yeah, so somethingabout permission there.
Yeah, how do you give somebody permission?
It sounds like people needsometimes to be given permission
(34:57):
rather than give themselves permission.
- I think it's a really sorry state
that we've got ourselves into
that people need permission, right?
I had a conversation a coupleof months ago and someone...
I'd been working in governmentand someone said to me,
"I'm surprised you've movedinto a design practise
because I thought your otherrole would be more impactful."
I was really offended for myself
but also really offendedon behalf of the industry
(35:18):
that, that's the waywe think about things.
That the person with thetitle that's been in the box
for X years or X decades
is the one who's got thepermission to do this.
And so like I guess my push
and the push for thiswhole kind of discussion
and what we're trying to do at Hassell
is remove the need for permission.
And you know, Clare talkedabout like failure and successes
(35:40):
and sharing those with Mia.
I think that's really key.
I think remembering thatit's not just the box
you sit in behind your desk.
You can pick up thephone, bring people in,
you don't need permission.
If you're not sureabout the self-awareness
and authenticity that's comeup as well, pick up the phone,
someone's gonna be ready to help.
You've got the skills, the networks
(36:02):
and the platform to do something.
And we've all talked about
how we've done that kind ofin our own lives as well.
- So ask forgiveness, not permission.
- That's it. Done that one too many times.
(all laugh)
- And is there a cultural change
when you come into a new organisation?
So I feel like you've beena bit recruited in a way,
(36:23):
so that your reputationprocedure will be...
So I feel like theorganisations are perhaps primed
or I think they'reprimed before you arrive.
- No, look, I think it's usuallya cultural change for me,
which is always what'sso exciting about it.
so the first threemonths at Development...
The first three months here
I was basically just chuckinghours in people's calendars.
(36:45):
Having one on ones askingwhat are you working on?
What motivates you?
I've been asked not to swear,but what pisses you off?
Like you know, I've also been asked
not to talk about beer andI've done that already,
so you know.
(all laugh)
It's just getting to know theheartbeat of an organisation,
the people that workwithin that organisation
and I need to adapt in orderto kind of like have influence
(37:08):
but not influence people.
It is about buildingconfidence, building agency.
If people are like, Ireally wanna do this,
but I don't quite have the tools,
it's like, well let's sit down for an hour
and figure out what you need.
I'll find a way, if Ican't give it to you,
I'll find somebody who canand we'll get on with the job.
So I think for me it's not about
kind of the difference in culture.
(37:28):
It's for me really aboutadapting to, I guess the space
that I've been given to walk into,
understanding what myplace is in that community,
and doing what I can to supportthem to do it on their own.
- Seems like there's amindset as well as a skillset
and I wonder if there'speople around the room
who are probably starting out.
(37:48):
People talk aboutconfidence as a skill set
as well as formal qualificationslike Clare has as well.
So is it your experiencethat just the energy
is bringing energy to itand a bit of a passion
is important to formal qualifications?
- I think that's important
but whenever I've kind of,
when ever I've spoken toanyone in this organisation,
(38:09):
it's just about two things.
Self awareness.
If you know how to do it, crack on.
If you don't, find someone who might.
If they don't, they canconnect you with someone else.
And authenticity.
If you didn't do it, don't say you did it.
If we did kind of learn something
instead of driving something,let's talk about that.
The successes and failures piece.
If everyone plays by those two rules
(38:30):
then we all have a role to play, right?
And if we all just can't like rock up,
either to pick up the phone
or sit across a table fromsomeone with self awareness
and authenticity, thenthat's super powerful.
All of a sudden you'veactivated in honour.
So I think that's it from my perspective.
- Brilliant.
- Thanks.
- Thanks for (indistinct).
- Great, I love it, I love it!
(38:51):
- And finally, Sam turnsto Kat to yarn with her,
completing the circle back at the heart.
- So we have heard a lotabout what you do now
and you've been a fabulousfacilitator and host thus far.
But tell us about Kat your story,
where you came from and howyou got to where you are now.
(39:12):
- I was a PE teacher in a formal life,
so don't hold that against me.
I always stand up for whatI believe in no matter what.
My father always instilled that in me.
My father's the aboriginal side,
my mother is the Irish-English side.
When I was teaching alot, as a peer teacher
I also taught geographyand I could always see
there was nothing taught about my culture
(39:32):
and it was really hard.
And I come from an erawhere we weren't allowed
to say you're aboriginal,
weren't allowed to speak our language.
It was taboo.
And as soon as youmention you're aboriginal
people would shut off from youand that was really hurtful.
So I had to pretend tobe something I wasn't.
And so as I said,
I was always in searchof where I belonged.
(39:52):
And after a while ofteaching, which I loved,
I thought "No, I've got to do something."
So that was my breakthrough to say no,
I've got to stand firm,
I wanna find out andhelp people understand
that connection to country
because it was thatconnection to that country
that made me get up from, you know,
a job that was secure to go travel.
So travelling around Australia,I started up my own business
(40:14):
and started working withBHP and Bureau Veritas
which are here, Coca-Cola
and I was working with their HR
to try to get aboriginalpeople into their companies,
and my first job was with a company
that was their South Africanteam, white South African.
(40:35):
So here comes this aboriginalwoman speaking language
and I looked around and I heard them say,
"From South Africa?" Andthere was dead silence
and we all just stared at each other
and went this is gonna be a hard yakka.
So, but after a while Isaid it was a big challenge
of eight months of gettingthem to understand culture
and why we had to embedit in the company itself.
(40:56):
But from that I said Iwas an aboriginal woman.
In my culture it was you have males,
you have certain otherthings, you have females,
aboriginal men, other people,
and aboriginal women areright down here and still are.
So I was thinking bugger that.
So I just thought, "What can I do?"
(41:17):
So I said "Okay, I'll do it myself."
So I started that lonelyjourney of travelling Australia,
working with companies,
doing indigenous employment projects,
which is what the government called them,
getting funding and helping them to do it.
In the meantime I got to knowa lot of traditional owners
and elders, what was going on,
and I could always see country changing
(41:38):
and country was always talking to me.
We say it talks to us throughthe wind, through the leaves,
touching the tree, it talks to us.
And I could see it wassomething different about it
that we were slowly destroying it.
We were hurting mother.
So I thought "Okay, I'vegot to do something else
about that."
So I thought the best peopleto work with in projects
were architects.
(42:00):
(all chuckles)
So for me it was morelike getting architects
to understand that what you design
needs to work with country,needs to connect with country,
be a part of country, butalso needs to tell a story.
It can't be just a building a structure,
it needs to be living.
(42:22):
I did say I did stalk youa little bit but not much.
Living building and you're right,
every building should beliving and having a story.
And that's what it needs to be.
So that's what (indistinct) life.
And coming from notmany people in my space
to now there's quite a fewpeople, which is great,
it was hardcore because no onewanted to listen to a female,
(42:42):
an aboriginal female.
And even my own peoplethought that was hard,
I shouldn't be doing that.
So I was deemed a wanderingauntie and still am
because that's my place.
I travel a lot, I haven't found home yet.
I do see Victoria as very welcoming.
So thank you very muchcoming from Western Australia
over here to your lovely weather.
So in shorts, mind you in themiddle of winter from Perth.
(43:07):
But it's been a very difficult journey.
But today marks somethingreally big in my 24 year career
as a First Nation's advisor and that is,
I never thought I'd see theday where an aboriginal female
would be hosting something like this
because we're always left out.
And that's why I don't goto a lot of women's events
because I'm not included really.
(43:29):
So to me, this is sustainability
because you're sustainingour culture, our beliefs
and I'm able to share that withyou and call you my allies,
my brothers and sisters.
So thank you for doingso, that's in short.
- Thank you.
(all applaud)
Thank you so much for sharing that.
And thank you so muchfor agreeing to host-
- Pleasure-
- As well with our wonderful mayor.
(43:53):
We talked a lot thenabout kind of describing,
well sustainability is kind of...
Countries is kind of thequote and you talked about it,
we've all talked aboutit a lot as an ethos
and you've talked about every building
should be a living buildingand those sorts of things.
How...
I've been working witha lot of the teams here
around not just slapping extra stuff on
(44:13):
or removing stuff during,you know, documentation
but altering the waythat we actually start,
evolving the way thatwe're setting ourselves up.
What advice can you giveon setting yourself up
to practise caring for country
and practise sustainabilityfrom the get go?
- I honestly believe throwaway what you've been taught
(44:35):
because it doesn't work.
And I can honestly say hand on my heart
and working with a lot of people here
and great new testimony, Iturn their world upside down.
(indistinct) where we throwout what you've been taught
about designing and that turn now,
which is out there nowdesigning with country,
which I never know where that's come from.
(44:55):
So for me it's, you need to listen.
And that's the hardest thingfor everybody is to sit down,
I come into my co-design,co-decide meetings
with digital learners whenI say don't bring a pen,
don't bring a pencil,I need you to sit there
and just listen to what we have to say.
Listen to the stories of countrythat we are gifting to you.
(45:20):
Listen to country andwhat she is saying to you,
and I've got a quote up thereand I firmly believe in that.
Mine is "Stop, breathe, connect.
But you need to listen to country."
And that way your designsare more creative.
But not just that youbring our stories to life
within the architecture,within the landscape,
(45:41):
within the biophilia.
So listen.
- What would you say? 'Cause were...
You know, a lot of the thingswe get is, it's too early,
it's too late, I don't have time.
How would you encouragepeople to take the time?
- I'd say early engagement is crucial.
I'm really firm on saying
(46:02):
to bring you on a cultural journey.
I'm there to help facilitate things
to make sure that you havethat wonderful experience
of knowing our culture.
But at the same timeyou're there firsthand.
So you're listening andhearing all these stories
and our elements andour protocols firsthand.
As a consultant, I'm not sayingit's gonna come through me,
then I'll tell you.
(46:23):
I want you to be there in that room
or wherever we are oncountry preferably to listen
so that you hear those storiesthe way that we tell things.
We are oral traditionalists.
And if you haven't figured outby now, I'm a story teller.
So, yeah, so the thing is
it's more about gettingin that early engagement
before you even think about designing.
Because if you don't havethat early engagement,
(46:45):
you're designing things thatyou think we want and it's not.
And I can tell you now,
it's not about the kid in the candy store
who can build the biggest building,
you can build the shiniest thing.
They're not stories of country.
Stories of country arethings that you can say
when you're designing, canyou hear it? Can you see it?
Can you smell it? Can you feel it?
(47:08):
That's connecting to country.
That's true designing thatearly engagement process.
And as I said, be respectful
because you've got to remember
you're being welcomed into their home.
We're knocking on thedoor, ringing the doorbell,
wait to be invited.
Don't go in there and change the channels
and move the furniture around
and raid the Tim Tams inthe fridge and, you know,
(47:30):
do all of that.
Just make sure we have permission first.
And if you don't know, simply ask first.
- I am going to steal thefinal question you asked Clare
'cause I thought it was fabulous.
And yeah, what is one thingthat everyone in this room
can do tomorrow?
(47:50):
- I would love everyone to go outside.
If possible take your shoes off.
I know it's cold and I knowit's wet, I know it's raining,
but that's country and feelcountry beneath your feet.
I want you to once I say,stop, connect to country.
Taking that breath and reallyfeel and let yourself know,
(48:13):
I wanna know what you hear.
What can you smell? What can you feel?
That's my takeaway becausethat's when you can truly say,
I sort of understand your culture.
I know where you are coming from.
Hey, wouldn't that be greatafter that big C word,
we're not going to mention the C word
after (indistinct) years.
(48:33):
Coming back into the city,coming back out of our homes,
which we really like now
because we don't wantto go back into work,
is experiencing whatit's like to come back
and that beautiful experience of saying
country is inside the buildings as well.
It's everywhere now.
And you can tell thattoday, everyone is here.
We need to experience country.
(48:54):
So take your shoes off,put them on the ground,
scrunch them up and really feel country.
That's my takeaway.
- Amazing. Thank you very much, Kat.
- My pleasure, my pleasure.
(audience applaud)
- Okay, so my takeaway from this,
when we talk about Know Your Place,
it's experiences likewe've talked about today,
(49:17):
it's about, you know, your passive house.
How do we do this?
How do we do somethingthat can be so simple
but make it so connected to country
and the fact that, you know,it may take a bit more money,
it may take a bit more of thought process
into building homes, building buildings,
(49:38):
but it's the long term gain.
Is it the person that standsup in the room and says
all that rubbish doesn'thave to be the rubbish.
It has a place, it can have a purpose.
Remember to put out whichbin's a correct bin.
And it can be sharing afood, recycling our food.
I go past lemon trees all thetime and I wanna get a pinch
(49:59):
because they're a dollar a lemon.
The thing is there's so much food wastage,
what do we do about that?
There's so many things we can do.
We are privileged that we have food.
And the simple thing of coming in
and standing firm on yourprinciples saying no,
this has to be top of the list.
Sustainability needs tobe top of the list now.
(50:21):
And for me listening allthis, it resonates so much
because we've been doingit for thousands of years.
And now I finally hear you all saying,
not to say I'm right, Kat,I'd like to hear that.
But the fact is that you'relistening to our culture,
that you're now taking it seriously
and it only takes small stepsto make one big footprint.
(50:46):
So everyone can startthinking in your role,
in the workplace, in your role at home,
in your role in community.
How can you know yourplace, share your place,
but also keep it going.
As I said, we can no longer heal country,
it's too far, but we can connect.
(51:09):
We can help stop what we aredoing destroying country.
- The feeling in the roomon the night was amazing.
I'd say it was quite hopefulwhat the future can hold
and having all theseyoung women and some men
be involved in such adifficult topic of discussion
was really inspiring.
(51:30):
And having that attendancein person was extra special.
It's so easy to feel overwhelmed
with the topic of sustainability
and listening to the panellists tonight,
really they broke it down for us
in their career and experiences
and told a story on howthey've had some failures
and successes and playing onthe theme Know Your Place.
(51:51):
It doesn't matter what yourrole is, you can do something.
I think it's really importantto ask good questions
or even bad questions.
Having the topic out there,
even if you don't know theanswer is really important.
And it doesn't matter
if you have all the knowledgein the world or nothing.
That's how you can make change.
And over time you might buildskills up like our panellists.
(52:13):
You contribute in a certain way,
but it just starts with that one question.
And that's a small step, butit's in the right direction.
(upbeat music)
Thank you to our brilliantspeakers, Kat, Sam, Dan, Maree,
and Clare, and our eventguests for their enthusiasm,
questions and support.
We had a lot of fun.
(52:34):
This event was organisedby the incredible women
of WomenIN at Hassell.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent,
audio support from Myles AV.
Head to our website to find out more
about sustainability at Hassell.
Thanks for listening.
(upbeat music)
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