October 31, 2023 • 42 mins
Retrofitting and repurposing existing structures can achieve decarbonisation goals, enhance occupancy, attract investment, and rejuvenate cities – all while reducing environmental impact. No wonder our industry can't stop talking about it.
It no longer makes sense to demolish unoccupied buildings, as it's neither cost-effective nor aligned with our circular economy aspirations.
In September 2023, Hassell sponsored the inaugural Retrofit & Repurpose Summit on Gadigal Country, Sydney, bringing together sustainability leaders, asset owners, investors, and sustainable building specialists come together to explore the opportunities and positive impacts of retrofit and repurpose strategies.
A recorded panel discussion 'Change Levers: Finding New Value in Net Zero Retrofit and Reuse Market', allows us to bring some of the summit's insights to the Hassell Talks audience. Featuring Principal Jeff Morgan; Green Building Council of Australia's Elham Monavari, Solar Victoria's Paul Corkill; Built's Jono Cottee, and hosted by Alison Scotland, Executive Director Australian Sustainable Built Environment Council.
We're pleased to be able to bring you this recording, and these insights.
Our thanks to the Retrofit Summit for generously capturing and sharing this audio.
For more great insights from the summit, check out https://retrofitsummit.com.au/post-event-session-recordings/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(light techno music)
(00:06):
- Hi, welcome back to "Hassell Talks".
In September 2023,
Hassell was proud to sponsor
the inaugural Retrofit &Repurpose Summit in Sydney
on Gadigal Country.
This one day event broughttogether sustainability leaders
with asset owners, investors,
and sustainable building specialists
to understand the opportunitiesand positive impacts
(00:26):
for retrofit and repurpose strategies.
Or to put it more simply,
how can we lower the environmentalimpact of our buildings
and sustainably enhance our cities?
This is something Hassell isalready really involved in
and we're having so many moreconversations with clients
about these sorts of projects.
Projects I know you, our listeners,
(00:47):
are also really interestedin hearing about.
So why has this become such a big topic?
With so many buildings sittingon occupied in our cities,
it doesn't make senseto simply demolish them,
replace them with moreefficient, sustainable buildings.
It's not always cost effective.
And importantly, it doesn'tfit with our aspirations
to nurture a circular economy
that minimises the impactof building materials
(01:08):
and construction processeson the environment.
So if we take those existingbuildings and retrofit them,
we can better meet ourdecarbonization goals,
improve occupancy, drive investment,
and regenerate our cities.
There's a big opportunityhere to make a difference
to our cities and communities.
I'm Jeff Morgan.
I'm a principal at Hassellin the Sydney studio,
(01:29):
and I acknowledge the Gadigal people
as the traditional custodians of the lands
on which the summit andthis podcast are recorded,
and pay my respects to theirelders past and present.
I'm really pleased to beable to share a recording
from the panel event Itook part in at the summit,
examining the value inthe retrofit market.
The panel was chaired by Alison Scotland,
executive director
of the Australian SustainableBuilt Environment Council.
(01:51):
And I'm grateful to the Summit organisers
for allowing Hassell theopportunity to share the insights
and inspiration from theevent on "Hassell Talks".
We'll put a link
so you can check out moreof their panel events
in the show notes.
Enjoy the insights.
- So the title of our panelsession is called Change Levers,
Finding New Value in Net ZeroRetrofit and Reuse Market.
(02:13):
As I call out your names, panel members,
would you mind coming up onto the stage?
So we have Jeff Morgan, whois a principal at Hassell.
We have Elham Monavari,
who is the head of GreenStar strategic delivery
at the Green Building Council.
We have Paul Corkill,
who's the executive directorof Policy, Programmes,
(02:36):
and Industry Developmentat Solar Victoria.
And we have Jono Cottee,development director of Built.
So thank you.
Welcome to the stage, everyone.
I might start with Jono first, if I may.
What do you see thechallenges and opportunities
for retrofit and net zeroin the current market?
(02:56):
- Yeah, thanks.
Yeah, I guess we're all here today
'cause we're kinda reallyaware of the challenges
that we're facing in our industry,
particularly regarding net zero
and the buildings that we occupy.
So we hear some of the stats, you know,
80% of the buildings that,you know, are currently
in our CBDs today will be here by 2050
and we need to retrofit, soa significant amount of them.
(03:18):
So three to 5% of thosebuildings every year
to be able to kinda meetwith the commitments
that we've actually made,you know, to ourselves
and to the environment tokinda keep up with that.
So, breaking that down.
So I'm focused on the commercialoffice sector particularly.
That's sort of half a millionsquare metres each year
that we need to kind of retrofit as well.
(03:38):
So that challenge is complete,
is really, really significant.
because it is, you know, achallenging problem to tackle
as a lot of you'll be kind of aware,
and how we kinda go about that
is really kind of interesting.
On the opportunity side though, however,
we're sort of in a reallyinteresting point of the market
at the moment with, you know...
I'm sure all of you have readabout the sort of challenges
(04:01):
that the commercial officemarket's kind of dealing with
at the moment.
So it gives us, you know, anopportunity to kinda re-look
at about how we've been kindof traditionally dealing
with the problem of, you know, building,
knocking down buildingsand building brand new ones
where we have an opportunity
to give these buildings their second
and third lives as well.
You know, tenants are demanding,you know, sustainability,
(04:22):
you know, from the realestate that they occupy,
but they're also demandinga little bit more character
and authenticity in the buildings
that they kind of, youknow, create as well.
So rather than being part oflarger, you know, glass towers,
you know, particularly aroundthe heritage items, you know,
we're seeing in some of thebuildings that we've produced.
In Sydney and Substation 164 in Melbourne,
(04:45):
we're, you know, doing adaptive reuse
of a heritage kind of wool stall building
into commercial office.
But tenants really are sort of looking
for that point of difference, you know,
in those kind of buildings.
So being able to give them,you know, their second
and third lives, you know,creates a real opportunity
for that embodied carbon, you know,
which I think is areally sort of, you know,
(05:06):
we're all sort of moved up the curve
on the operational side ofthings and sustainability,
but the embodied carbon challenges
is what we're sort of focused on.
- Beautiful.
Thanks, Jono.
And we'll get to thatadaptive reuse part later.
I think that's so fascinating.
But I'll go back to what you said earlier
in the sense of the scaleat which we need to do this.
We need some sort of planning.
(05:28):
We need some sort of transition.
We need some sort of roadmapabout what we need to do.
And it's a good segue to Elham
because I know the Green Building Council
have been, you know, thoughtleaders in this space.
You produced yourclimate positive roadmap.
You know what needs to happenwith our built environment.
Did you wanna give us alittle bit of a understanding
(05:48):
about what that means and what's involved?
- Sure.
This was something thatwe've been thinking about
for a long time, and we didthink about back in 2018,
which is when we first released
the climate positive roadmap.
At the time, that roadmap, you know,
it took a lot ofconsultation with industry,
so a lot of it I think youprobably think is a given now,
(06:09):
you know, given how far we've come.
But at the time,
it was really trying totackle a big problem.
And really, at the top of that
was our Paris Agreement Targets
and identifying ways thatthe built environment needed
to work towards meeting theParis Agreement Targets.
So, you know, really looking
at the highly efficientfossil fuel free built
with lower upfront carbon emissions,
(06:32):
fully powered by renewablesand offset with nature.
Again, this is like a formula
that you've become accustomed to,
but at the time, itwas definitely very new
and let's call it groundbreaking.
So that framework that was established
has been really instrumental in the way
that we, as an organisation, move forward
(06:53):
with all of the rating tools.
The GBCA, as many of you inthe room may or may not know,
we're an organisation,
we develop rating toolsand we do certification,
and that certification is independent.
So it's really important
to be able to validate the claims made.
So the climate positiveroadmap was really helpful
in that it set up that framework,
(07:13):
but also started to embed it.
It allowed us to find waysto try and incorporate it
into all of the differentrating tools that we have.
So starting off with thebuildings rating tool,
which is obviously for new builds,
but it's also been part of all
of the subsequent ratingtools that we've developed.
For example, the GreenStar Performance one,
which is probably fromwhen talking about retrofit
(07:34):
and repurpose is a reallyimportant rating tool,
but now, we're moving into ourfitouts rating tool as well.
And the whole concept of circular economy
is going to be really fundamental
to that particular rating tool.
But as well as developing roadmaps,
the GBCA and rating tools,
the GBCA knows that weneed to help industry
to try and move towardsthat pathway as well.
(07:56):
And we provide supportivedocuments that sit alongside that.
And one that I think is a really good one
for a lot of people inthe room to have a look at
is the practical guide,
the different practicalguides that we have.
So there are practical guidesfor the electrification,
for example, of new buildings,of existing buildings,
the practical guide
(08:16):
for upfront carbon sortof emissions as well.
So I think that practical guide
is where we start to breakdown what needs to be done
in a building to try and get it
to incorporate some of the requirements
and the strategies thatwe've set in place.
- Beautiful.
Absolutely.
Because, you know, it's aconflation of everything.
If you're retrofittinga building, you know,
(08:37):
you don't want to electrify
before you look at the thermal shell.
So, you know, I think yourguides are such a wonderful tool.
And if anyone hasn't seen them,
I think you shoulddefinitely check them out
because they are so useful.
And so touching on the electrification
and I might jump to you, Paul, if I can.
So, you know, the thing that's exciting
(09:00):
about electrification
and especially household electrification
is that, you know, theconsumer is at the centre.
So we've got a lot of collectiveexperience on the panel
in supporting consumers to electrify,
but could you providea bit of your insight
in relation to your experiencehelping consumers electrify?
(09:24):
- Yeah.
Hi, Allison.
Hi, everybody.
Thanks for that.
Solar Victoria is an agency
within the Department of Energy,Environment Climate Action
within Victoria.
And I'm aware there'sprobably many people here
from Victoria today.
There's a very active conversation
around replacing gas inthe home in Victoria.
And what we've seen from ourperspective from Solar Victoria
(09:47):
is we've been running now for five years
with the Solar Homes programme,which is our flagship programme,
and we've seen over 260,000Victorian households move
to put solar on therooftop of their buildings.
That brings the number ofhouses in Victoria to 600,000
that have got solar.
And it's from within thatcohort that we are seeing
because the way that SolarVictoria delivers our programme,
(10:10):
we have really great data around customer,
around what their motivators are,
what they're doing next,
and really significantmove for those customers
who are really primed onthat electrification journey,
which is really exciting.
So we're seeing...
We also deliver a incentive for hot water,
(10:30):
for energy efficient hotwater, for heat pumps.
And in that programme,
which we've had significantuplift in customer interest
in that in the last sixmonths, largely about that,
as a result of that conversationaround electrification.
Most traditionally, most hotwater and heating and cooling,
heating in the home is delivered
(10:50):
via a gas powered appliance.
So there's a big challenge for us
with so much of our carbonemissions coming from homes
and therefore from the use of gas.
So that moved to heat pumps,
moving to electric applianceswhich are efficient,
and understanding that as a result
of their own solar generationthat's on their rooftop now.
(11:13):
And the ability to beable to think about that
and improve their energy literacy
as a result of having solarand be able to use that,
think about how they canuse more of that solar
for other appliances within the home.
And it seems to be that hot water
is the next cab off the ranks.
- Beautiful.
That sounds great.
And, you know, they canobviously see the benefits.
(11:35):
Do you find, you know,not everyone is motivated
by, you know, an energy bill.
Are you finding anything particular
that really helps aconsumer make that jump?
You know, what speaks totheir, you know, heart?
- Yeah, it's a really good question.
Overwhelmingly, the primarymotivator that we've seen
over the five years of theprogramme has been the cost.
And certainly, I think ifanyone has dipped their toe
(11:57):
into the solar industry,
you would see that thatindustry is very much aligned
to a payback period.
But we are starting to seethat conversation broaden
to other factors as well.
Household motivationsaround doing their bit
for the environment isincreasing significantly.
It was a few percent when wefirst started as a motivator.
(12:20):
That cost was that primary thing.
But then also there'sbeen more conversation
around providing a home that's healthier,
that's more comfortable to live in.
Those sorts of factors arestarting to come up higher
in terms of the motivators for people
in terms of what they're doing.
And I'm talking aboutin the retrofit space.
So in the new builds,
(12:43):
it's probably a bit of adifferent discussion now,
particularly, you know,Victoria's announced a ban
on gas connections fornew planning permits
from next year, which isactually a small number
of buildings for housesfor next year and beyond.
But it's actually definitelybeen, you know, a lightning rod
(13:05):
for a discussion furtherwith the community
around the role of gas in the home
and also their investment in appliances
that, you know, we knowlast for 10 or 20 years.
And so that's certainly extended to things
like using reverse cycleair conditioners for heating
in the home and inductioncooking, those sorts of things.
And also, obviously the thermal envelope
(13:25):
as part of the NC2022 as well.
So yeah.
- Beautiful.
Thanks, Paul.
And so taking that sortof theme of motivation,
if we sort of look atanother area of opportunity,
perhaps more in our inner city office
and residential building stock.
It seems far too oftenthat underperforming assets
(13:48):
are left to rot until someone comes along
with the motivation or theplan to knock down and rebuild.
Do you see this as an opportunity, Jeff?
- Yeah, absolutely I do.
I think as Jono pointed out, you know,
it's predicted that 80% ofour buildings will be built,
are already built by 2050.
(14:10):
But I think also in particularover the past few years
with the pandemic,
there's been a lot of newopportunities emerging.
We're certainly seeing markets
who have underperforming assets
being looked at much more critically now,
both for the potentialto remain as offices
but also to be adaptivelyreused as into apartments.
But in the office market,
(14:30):
I think there's still really strong demand
for quality buildingsand quality precincts.
And there's a lot of interest in it trying
to identify those opportunitiesto increase their value.
I think in Sydney alone,
we're currently working onfour adaptive reuse projects
at the moment, notincluding the adaptive reuse
of the lands building with Built.
And we're seeing also stronginterest from both domestic
(14:51):
and international developerslooking to re-adaptively use
their existing assets in the past year
much more compared to years previous.
And some of these early proposals,
the planning authoritiesmuch to their credit
are really starting to look at ways
to incentivize developers
potentially through eitherincreased height or area,
(15:14):
obviously within thebounds of design excellence
and local environmental impacts.
But I also think thatsome of this interest
around embodying carbonfrom their perspective
is around looking to createnarratives around their products
and how do they sell these products.
So, you know, obviously funnily enough,
having a strong narrative
that will help you attract like-minded
socially conscious investorsor tenants or buyers
(15:38):
is a really strong wayof selling their product.
Also, I think Hassell'sbeen really involved,
particularly down in Melbourneover the past few months
in doing a bit of researchthat's got a lot of interest
looking at the commercialoffice market there
and identifying opportunities
to convert those existing buildings
into apartment buildings.
And that's something now thatwe're just getting underway
(15:59):
with extending that researchhere to the Sydney market,
but trying to understandthe particular differences
in land values and planning regulations,
but I think there'll besomething really compelling
to share there as well.
- That's so exciting.
You know, if you think aboutpre-COVID versus post-COVID,
you know, working from homeis becoming more of a norm,
(16:19):
so you know what to do with allthose empty office buildings
that seems like such alogical pathway, isn't it?
And with that inside, youknow, touching on the narrative
that you were sort of talking about.
Jono, you sort of talking about,you know, the opportunities
in relations to red flags and green flags.
Can you talk a bit moreabout what that means for you
(16:42):
in terms of the opportunities you see?
- Yeah.
So I actually met with theHassell guys a few times
about their piece of workthat they've kind of done.
It's really kind of interesting
'cause you start with the bigdata set of all the buildings
in CBD and it solely kinda narrows down
by certain characteristics
that make it sort of, youknow, possible or impossible
(17:04):
to kinda retrofit these buildings as well.
So I think the really kind of obvious ones
are even outside thebuilding form in itself,
like having built formlocated in good locations,
near amenity, publictransport, part of communities,
and where people really wannabe is really kind of important
for being able to kind of put several uses
(17:27):
in that kind of place as well.
And then going to thebuilt form, you know,
there's a lot of kinda technicalkinda challenges as well,
but having good floor to ceiling heights,
the structures and mainpart of what we can reuse,
and main part of any of thesort of embodied carbon,
these kind of buildings.
So having those kind of robust structures,
the right floor to ceiling heights
(17:47):
are really kind of important.
And it kinda goes to awider kind of conversation
about sustainability and lookingat sort of I love working
with the heritage buildings,
those buildings that have been there
for, you know, a hundred years plus.
And we're working on acapital at the moment,
but they were builtreally solidly and well
and are able to bereused in many purposes.
(18:07):
The old bank buildings, youknow, into commercial offices.
The lands build and educationbuildings down the city
into hotel.
And I think it's an interesting discussion
that we can start to have about
maybe, you know, building buildings
not just for the minimalsort of redundancy, you know,
that we kinda have now,
but allowing the think abouthow they would look like
(18:28):
in their second and third lives
before we already build them.
So thinking about theretrofitting opportunities
in the future as well
is kinda really whatwe're sort of focused on
as well as, you know, how we then retrofit
those kind of existing buildings,
'cause we're aware of thechallenges of the projects
that don't have the rightstructural integrity
or have the wrong facade
(18:48):
or have, you know, smallerfloor to ceiling heights
that were built for avery specific purpose,
and it's a bit of a missedopportunity there as well.
- Yeah, so, you know, thinking of sort
of risky building typologies, you know,
heritage buildings are beautiful
and, you know, that's if youbuild beautiful buildings,
of course, people wanna keep them around.
(19:08):
What about, you know, theglass towers, you know,
are they a building typology that you see
as potentially risky in termsof the second and third life?
- Yeah, I think so.
I think, you know, we needto be really kinda careful
about, you know, thosetype of sort of buildings
and, you know, they can bereused but they are harder,
you know, the work donearound the residential space,
(19:30):
not commercial buildings, not all of them,
and it's quite of asmaller percentage of them
are able to be reused into residential.
Some of them 'cause of the planning rules,
but some of them becauseof the actual amenity
and, you know, the specific nature
that they're kinda built with.
So I think, you know, some ofthose typologies are the ones
that are most kinda challengingto be able to retrofit.
(19:53):
- So going back to Elham andback to the thought leadership
of the GBCA, you know.
We're talking about heritage,
we're talking about reuse and repurposing
and second and third lives.
You've been researching or the GBCA
has been researching circulareconomy opportunities
(20:14):
for quite some time.
Can you give us asummary of what you found
and where the opportunities lie there?
- Interestingly.
Pre-COVID, things were better
from a circular economy point of view.
Yes, I got the stats from a colleague.
And yes, so it was like 9%,
(20:35):
let's call it circular economy.
Now, it's gone down to 7%.
So I think that's aninteresting shift post-COVID
because who would've thoughtit would've gone in reverse
given the advancements in our thinking
and all the rest of it.
But yes, for the GBCA, we've tried to...
You know, circular economyis definitely an area
(20:55):
that we need to continue to grow into.
I don't think we havethe full answers yet.
So at some point, there'sgoing to no doubt be roadmap
for circular economy, but not yet.
However, having said that, wehave been doing a lot of work
with organisations like theBetter Buildings Partnership.
I think there was like a summit
or something held a few weeks ago,
(21:17):
as well as releasing
the Circular Economy Innovation Challenge
into Green Star buildings.
And as I said, with the new rating tool,
we're finding the same thing with the,
I suppose, like what we are hearing,
the engagement that we're doing
and just the level of excitement
that people have currently for.
We don't even have thediscussion paper out
for the fitouts rating tool
(21:37):
but there's so much buzz about it
that we're like, wow, okay.
It is the last of the suitethat we've been developing
and we deliberately hadit last because of COVID
and we just really wanted to sit
and think about what does the future
of work I suppose look like.
But yeah, so that willdefinitely be like a common theme
within that particular rating tool.
(21:57):
But I mean the main sort ofresearch that we've found,
you know, we've tried to beembedded into the rating tools
where we can and certainlyinto the product space as well,
where we've looked at theresponsible products framework,
which looks at the different materials
and, you know, incentivizingthose that are reusable,
recyclable that are easyto deconstruct as well.
(22:19):
So I suppose like theevolution of Green Star
has changed over time as well,
whereas previously we usedto have, you know, design
for disassembly kind of credit.
It was very sort oflike singular, you know,
there was the concrete credit,
there was the steel credit.
We've tried to be moreholistic in our viewpoint,
and certainly working a lot
with the manufacturers directly as well
(22:40):
to try and get that sortof thinking, moving,
and shifting as well.
- Beautiful.
Thanks, Elham.
When you mentioned the fitout,
I sort of thought aboutJeff and Hassell, you know,
you've lived the adaptivereuse in Hassell, you know,
seeing your offices and seeingthe journey in your offices
(23:03):
about what you've done to repurpose
even down to your furniture.
I think that's such a beautiful story.
So did you wanna sort of touch on that
or, you know, maybe even looking at that
as a opportunity or a challengeto really realise this reuse
(23:23):
across, you know, at a broad scale?
- Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think, you know,
our office really is as you point out,
like a living example.
And that kind of fact ispointed out, you know,
to people who visit usbut also to our staff.
And we have just recentlyundertaken a bit of a refresh
of our studio after the kindafirst seven or eight years
(23:44):
of being there.
And yeah, we reused andrepurposed a lot of furniture,
moved it around, chopped it up, you know,
adapted it as best we could.
Obviously, budgets were tight for us all,
but I think it was a reallyclear and easy lesson
for, you know, peopleworking with us to say
that, you know, this is the way you do it.
So that certainly has been,you know, a really great tool
(24:05):
to use very directly for our own people.
- Did you find any challenges with it?
You know, have you learnedanything through that process
that could inspire, you know,people in the room today?
- Well, actually, I was kindof more thinking about the work
that we're doing with Builton the lands building.
That's been an incrediblychallenging building,
(24:25):
but incredibly rewarding process.
You know, as John was saying,it's built incredibly well,
but when you start toupgrade these buildings
to current codes and standards,not quite well enough.
So actually figuring out how you provide
the necessary structural integrity
to the certain kind ofconcrete jack arches,
which aren't really concreteand have no reinforcing
(24:47):
but have been there for 150 years.
How you provide fireratings to certain elements?
You know, it's been anincredibly technical challenge
and I've gotta give my hatoff to Jono and his team.
It's been a really immensepleasure working with them,
very professional.
Kind of going through eachsort of challenge that we face,
(25:07):
working through it one by one,
getting in the necessary experts,
consulting with who weneed to consult with.
And yeah, we've just kind ofkicked off the last phase.
We've got about another two years to go,
maybe a bit more to complete,
but it's, yeah, reallystarting to take place now
and I think it's gonnabe a real joy, you know,
for the rest of the cityto go into a building
that was otherwise reallynot open to the public
(25:28):
and see it properly for the first time.
- That's so beautiful and I love it.
You know, going back tothis whole collaboration,
it's such a team sport, you know.
You can achieve so much,you know, working together
and really bringing in allparts of the building chain
to really try and find solutions
(25:49):
that are gonna mean something for people
and building occupants.
So yeah, that's fantastic.
Going into the, you know,adaptive reuse question, you know,
back to electric homes, youknow, a lot of this is work
and people with budgets.
It's wonderful that they canenjoy these beautiful projects.
(26:12):
But, you know, equity andaccess are just as important
and, you know, we need to be aware of this
with our energy transitionwith our electrification.
Paul, can you help us understand
or give us some guidance
to make sure there'snobody left out on the way?
(26:32):
- Thanks, Alison.
I can provide some guidance.
This is a really tricky problem.
It's certainly occupyingour minds at the moment,
particularly noting that where we are
in the kind of maturity of the programme
that we're now delivering five years in.
Solar, the top 20 suburbs thathave received solar rebates
from us over the first five years
(26:54):
are all outer growth ringsuburbs of Melbourne.
They're low hanging fruit whenit comes to detached homes,
suitable for solar, largerooftops, modern switchboards,
all the rest of it.
They're the low hangingfruit for that industry.
So there's probably twopoints for me to make.
One is how do we get anindustry who is geared up
(27:18):
and able to tackle the tricky problems?
Despite the fact that thathas been a low hanging fruit
has helped actually to createa really strong supply chain.
We've been able to work withindustry on quality standards,
on competencies of installers,those sorts of things.
And they are, you know,looking for the next thing
(27:39):
in terms of that.
And so we continue to wantto work with industry I think
in terms of those capabilities,
and seeing not just a discreetproduct like a solar system
but also how you have a relationship,
a longer term relationshipwith a household
to that sees opportunitiesto do further upgrades,
either as part of a deep retrofit upfront
(28:00):
if they've got their financialwherewithal to do that,
or if it's a progressivething that happens
over a few years.
And then they're given that advice
that comes, you know, from an industry
who they actually have avery high rating of trust in
to be able to do that.
The second point I think though
is around getting the incentives right
to get through some of thosebarriers and disincentives.
(28:23):
And we are really excited.
Last week our ministerand the federal minister
announced a new programmeto tackle rooftop solar
for people who live in apartment buildings
that will see an increaseof our incentive,
a doubling of our incentiveto $2,800 per apartment.
(28:43):
So that is a traditionallya harder to reach,
but there are solutions available
that do enable those people to,
and we've actually put someof them in place already
that we'll put that do create,you know, opportunities
for access to renewable energy.
And then again, there's that same starting
(29:04):
of the conversation of vehiclearound electrification,
thermal envelope andcontinuing to do things
with those households.
And then the other Ithink is opportunities
in the social housing space as well.
There's similarly anannouncement last week
around a big increase toVictoria's energy efficiency
and social housing programme.
(29:24):
That's really exciting as well,
'cause they wanted tosee us be able to shift
to a deeper rich retrofit of those homes,
which will be great for thebeneficiaries of those homes
who can least afford to do that.
In fact they can't 'cause thehomes are owned by the state,
but certainly, it's out of reach for them.
But also, it's creating an industry
who has the capabilityto be able to do that.
(29:45):
And hopefully, we couldsee ways to leverage that
to provide, you know, morecommercial opportunities
that, you know, more ofthe households can access.
- That's beautiful
and great lessons forthe rest of the country.
I think, you know, learningfrom say, the pilots
to figure out, you know, whatworks at scale, you know.
(30:05):
We could really learn
from what the Victorian government's done,
especially via Solar Victoria.
And that's probably a goodsegue to my final question
before we go to the audience.
And it's just a quick fire question
to each of the panel members.
And I might start with you Paul.
If you could pick one lever to pull
(30:27):
to achieve that broadscale impact, you know,
across Australia basedon what you've learned,
what would it be?
- Okay.
Wow.
Look, I think we're activelyhaving a conversation
with the community aboutthe need to do upgrades
to their homes.
(30:48):
And so I think we are unpackingthat with the community
and that's really going along well.
Like from Solar Victoria's point of view,
we've got incentivesthat are really helping
to enable that conversation,build capability,
build, you know, a muchhigher percentage of homes
that are more comfortable,that are more energy efficient,
(31:08):
and are generating their own power.
There is a point though
where I think we're gonna have
to have a bit more of aconversation around regulation.
I guess I'd probably say my one wish
is just we probably needto bring that forward now.
It's time to start havingthat conversation around
even if it's into the future
and it's a long termconsideration that this is coming,
(31:30):
but that it will become ubiquitous.
That you'll live in aenergy efficient home
that is comfortable
and that is doing itsbit for the environment.
Yeah.
- Yeah. Signals very important.
Neighbours is fabulous at signals.
I love it.
And Jeff, if you had a magicwand, what would it be?
- Well, I think we need tostart really placing a value
on embodied carbon.
(31:51):
You know, it's true that Ithink the greenest building
is the one that's already built.
And at the moment, you know,
our kind of currentdecision-making frameworks
really only prioritise costtime and commercial risk.
And in my work with Mecla,
sharing the aluminium working group,
we've seen what the effectthat's had on industry,
you know, where so much ofwhat we make and produce comes
from overseas.
(32:11):
And our own local domesticcapability and capacities
are really in some areasteachering on non-existent.
So yeah, I think we've gotta start
to look at carbon sitting equal to
alongside all the other metrics
that we traditionally have considered.
- He-he.
And Elham.
- Good question.
I've been listening to the otherpanellists and I'm thinking,
(32:33):
okay, we've ticked off regulation,
we've ticked off, you know, having valued.
I would say in addition
to what the other panellists have said,
I think it's important tobe able to also have a...
So I mean I think the neighbours
sort of what was presentedearlier was really great
because a common way of beingable to measure these things
(32:55):
and verifying them isreally important as well.
Because without that,
then it's hard to reallymeasure the scale of the impact
and to demonstrate thatthings have been delivered.
Obviously, having the finance sector
really driving that aswell is really important
and that's certainly what we've found
through the work that we've done.
And having that sort of recognition
(33:16):
by different financialinstitutions is really important
because it's been able toreally help us scale up a lot
of the programme and certainlyI think has been helpful
in driving a lot of thedemand that we're seeing
for rating tools like Green Star.
So yeah, having thecomparability and measurability
and then having the financesector be able to, again,
(33:36):
another form of signalling I suppose
to say that this is really important.
I think those two togethercan be very impactful.
- Absolutely.
Thank you.
And last but not least,Jono, what do you think?
- Yeah, so I think, look,
I've been talking really high level today
and I think for the rest ofthe day the exciting part
is being able to listento some more theoretical
(33:57):
and real case studies on the retrofit.
But some of these are only possible
and possible at large scaleif we both incentivize
and change some of our sort ofplanning regulations as well.
So we really need to.
And all of us have anopportunity to do this push
on our authorities to createincentives and flexibility
around buildings that are working
(34:19):
with adaptive reuse projects
and are working with thatembodied carbon framework as well.
At the moment, there'salmost a bit of a penalty
by how hard they are to kindado compared to new builds
that we need to like really continue
to push our authorities,particularly around planning,
and our councils and governments
about how we can incentivize people
to kinda reuse these existing buildings.
(34:39):
So I'm doing some work
with the Property Councilof Australia at the moment,
for example, and we're reallysort of focused on that,
but I think everybodyin their own industry
has an opportunity to kindof push where they can
to kind of help sortof change that as well.
- Beautiful.
Oh, that's music to my ears.
I think you've all hitthe nail on the head.
What I might do now is ask the audience
(35:01):
if you have any questionsfor our panel members
in relation to...
Oh, we've covered a whole range of topics,
but, you know, adaptive reuse,electrification, the journey.
We have Sam over here.
Oh.
Oh, we've got one microphone,
so we'll go Stanford first and then Sam.
Thank you.
(35:21):
- Hi, I've got the mic.
Hi, Stanford Harrisonfrom the Commonwealth.
Just a question whentalking about retrofits
and adaptive reuse, youtalked about land values,
practical considerations,planning regulations.
You know, one of theimportant regulatory tools
(35:41):
in the landscape is to do
with the national construction code
and, of course, everybody,you know, knows it applies
to new construction, alsoapplies to renovations
and refurbishments in adifferent way in each state
and it's applied in different ways now.
Really interested in how important is this
and how much of a factoris it in retrofits
and adaptive reuse considerations?
(36:05):
- I can take that one.
As a builder and developer,
I think that's where wecan add a lot of value.
You're right.
On a retrofit scale,the NCC particular is,
can be interpreted a fewdifferent kind of ways,
particularly dealing with theexisting structures as well.
So we'd like to tryand get in really early
(36:25):
and that's the advantage
of having the in-house building capability
when we're looking at kind of developments
to kind of, you know, flag thoseideas with the authorities,
our certifiers, you know,all of our consultants
to work out, you know,those kind of challenges
and problems kind of early on.
But it's something
that probably needs,you know, some potential
to have a bit more of sortof framework about it,
(36:47):
about where the kind ofline starts and stops
when you're working withadaptive reuse kind of projects
for that.
And sometimes it's abit of an interpretation
of the regulations rather than that,
but it's a very good point,
because it's something that we encounter
in these projects every day.
- You'd be well aware of what's happening
in other parts of the world
and the kind of advocacythat's going on to embed
(37:08):
kind of embodying body carbon calculations
and for planning submissionsand within the building code.
So I think that's somethinghopefully we'll start
to see here more.
And, you know, my colleaguesin the UK as part of ACAN,
the kind of efficacy hasbeen sort of quite tireless
in lobbying to governmentto make the case for this.
So I like to think that, Iprobably shouldn't say this,
(37:30):
but it's typically we'llkind of follow second suit
and kind of take their lead.
But yeah, I think it's certainly coming.
- Well, we'll go to Sam.
You've got a microphone?
- I do.
Thanks very much, Alison.
Sam putt from Hassell.
Quick question for Elham I think.
We've had some really good perspectives
from kind of peoplewearing different hats,
but, Elham, the GreenBuilding Council has members
(37:52):
that sit all around a projecttable or portfolio table.
Yeah.
And I just wanted to askyou what you think may need
to change in the level of collaboration
or the role of each of those hats?
So we've got developers,builders, designers,
engineers, investors, the lot.
What do you think needsto change in that dynamic
to create true new value to elevate
(38:16):
to where we need to get to
from a retrofit and existingbuildings perspective?
- Yes.
What needs to change?
I think having thoseconversations earlier,
I think that's the critical component.
So you talked about thefact that you get in early,
so it means that you can reallystart to identify the issues
(38:39):
and also identify the potential as well.
And I think that's themain sort of ingredient
that it's often a matter of time
and bringing in the rightpeople in at the right time
and having those conversations
that are also quite specific as well,
because a lot of this worked
in relation to, you know,retrofit and repurpose.
(38:59):
You kinda need to have thatend goal in mind in some ways.
So you need to know what it isthat you're trying to create,
but also, so having, Iguess, the client there
and the potential tenants as well.
So really just having theright people in the room
at the right time Ithink is the main issue,
because often what happens,
and I'm not saying this is whathappens with your projects,
(39:19):
but a lot of these sort ofdecisions happen quite later on
where there's been a lotof missed opportunities.
So sort of going back to thatcircular economy example.
Circular economy is gonna be really hard
if a lot of design elementsare already been locked in
for someone to then come inand start talking about like,
hey, what can we do?
Let's try and repurpose X, Y, and Z.
(39:41):
So I think that's the mainthing that comes to mind.
- Hello.
Joe Carton here from Bill.
Quick one for Jono and Jeff.
You know, I'm the biggestchampion for reusing buildings.
I think it's incredibly important.
But I've just come fromthe Property Council's
designing buildings thatwork for everyone breakfast.
And Nas Campanella wasthere and Liesl Tesch,
(40:04):
Liesl Tesch parliamentarysecretary for inclusivity,
and she challenged everyone tosay, if I came to your house,
could my wheelchairfit into your bathroom?
Could I get into your bathroomand use your bathroom?
And I gotta say, in myhouse, it wouldn't happen.
And I have a child with disabilities.
So how do we manage to caterfor people with disabilities
whilst relifing, repurposing,
(40:26):
retrofitting existing buildings
that weren't designed for that
in a way that financially stacks up?
And what barriers need to be removed
in order to design buildingsthat do work for everyone?
- That's a very good andchallenging question.
It's certainly been something
that we've had to work veryclosely with our DDA consultant
on the lands building.
(40:48):
You know, the fact thatwe're kind of trying
to balance that equity and access
with the kind of heritageaspects of the building.
So having one dedicated entry
for that kind of equitable access,
which then leads straightinto a clear circulation path
to use the lifts,
which are obviously beingadded into the building.
You know, unfortunately,
(41:09):
the challenges around providing access
to some of the more grand entries
where we currently riseup eight to 12 stairs
was just too much to kind of an impact
to provide access to each ofthe four different entries
along that building.
But we did work very hardin terms of making sure
that each room type was accessible.
(41:31):
Yes, in some cases, doorwaysdid need to be widened.
There's lots of complicationsaround providing auto-openers
and things like that.
So it was a really rigorous process
and it's actually still going on.
Just this week, we've been looking
at all the thresholddetails at each doorway
because the floor level's gonna change.
So what's the kind of rise?
And it's an incredibly detailed thing
(41:53):
that has ramificationsall through the design,
but it's part of it and we'vebeen really enjoying it.
- Thank you, panel members.
Really wonderful.
(audience clapping)
(light techno music)
(light techno music)
(00:06):
- Hi, welcome back to "Hassell Talks".
In September 2023,
Hassell was proud to sponsor
the inaugural Retrofit &Repurpose Summit in Sydney
on Gadigal Country.
This one day event broughttogether sustainability leaders
with asset owners, investors,
and sustainable building specialists
to understand the opportunitiesand positive impacts
(00:26):
for retrofit and repurpose strategies.
Or to put it more simply,
how can we lower the environmentalimpact of our buildings
and sustainably enhance our cities?
This is something Hassell isalready really involved in
and we're having so many moreconversations with clients
about these sorts of projects.
Projects I know you, our listeners,
(00:47):
are also really interestedin hearing about.
So why has this become such a big topic?
With so many buildings sittingon occupied in our cities,
it doesn't make senseto simply demolish them,
replace them with moreefficient, sustainable buildings.
It's not always cost effective.
And importantly, it doesn'tfit with our aspirations
to nurture a circular economy
that minimises the impactof building materials
(01:08):
and construction processeson the environment.
So if we take those existingbuildings and retrofit them,
we can better meet ourdecarbonization goals,
improve occupancy, drive investment,
and regenerate our cities.
There's a big opportunityhere to make a difference
to our cities and communities.
I'm Jeff Morgan.
I'm a principal at Hassellin the Sydney studio,
(01:29):
and I acknowledge the Gadigal people
as the traditional custodians of the lands
on which the summit andthis podcast are recorded,
and pay my respects to theirelders past and present.
I'm really pleased to beable to share a recording
from the panel event Itook part in at the summit,
examining the value inthe retrofit market.
The panel was chaired by Alison Scotland,
executive director
of the Australian SustainableBuilt Environment Council.
(01:51):
And I'm grateful to the Summit organisers
for allowing Hassell theopportunity to share the insights
and inspiration from theevent on "Hassell Talks".
We'll put a link
so you can check out moreof their panel events
in the show notes.
Enjoy the insights.
- So the title of our panelsession is called Change Levers,
Finding New Value in Net ZeroRetrofit and Reuse Market.
(02:13):
As I call out your names, panel members,
would you mind coming up onto the stage?
So we have Jeff Morgan, whois a principal at Hassell.
We have Elham Monavari,
who is the head of GreenStar strategic delivery
at the Green Building Council.
We have Paul Corkill,
who's the executive directorof Policy, Programmes,
(02:36):
and Industry Developmentat Solar Victoria.
And we have Jono Cottee,development director of Built.
So thank you.
Welcome to the stage, everyone.
I might start with Jono first, if I may.
What do you see thechallenges and opportunities
for retrofit and net zeroin the current market?
(02:56):
- Yeah, thanks.
Yeah, I guess we're all here today
'cause we're kinda reallyaware of the challenges
that we're facing in our industry,
particularly regarding net zero
and the buildings that we occupy.
So we hear some of the stats, you know,
80% of the buildings that,you know, are currently
in our CBDs today will be here by 2050
and we need to retrofit, soa significant amount of them.
(03:18):
So three to 5% of thosebuildings every year
to be able to kinda meetwith the commitments
that we've actually made,you know, to ourselves
and to the environment tokinda keep up with that.
So, breaking that down.
So I'm focused on the commercialoffice sector particularly.
That's sort of half a millionsquare metres each year
that we need to kind of retrofit as well.
(03:38):
So that challenge is complete,
is really, really significant.
because it is, you know, achallenging problem to tackle
as a lot of you'll be kind of aware,
and how we kinda go about that
is really kind of interesting.
On the opportunity side though, however,
we're sort of in a reallyinteresting point of the market
at the moment with, you know...
I'm sure all of you have readabout the sort of challenges
(04:01):
that the commercial officemarket's kind of dealing with
at the moment.
So it gives us, you know, anopportunity to kinda re-look
at about how we've been kindof traditionally dealing
with the problem of, you know, building,
knocking down buildingsand building brand new ones
where we have an opportunity
to give these buildings their second
and third lives as well.
You know, tenants are demanding,you know, sustainability,
(04:22):
you know, from the realestate that they occupy,
but they're also demandinga little bit more character
and authenticity in the buildings
that they kind of, youknow, create as well.
So rather than being part oflarger, you know, glass towers,
you know, particularly aroundthe heritage items, you know,
we're seeing in some of thebuildings that we've produced.
In Sydney and Substation 164 in Melbourne,
(04:45):
we're, you know, doing adaptive reuse
of a heritage kind of wool stall building
into commercial office.
But tenants really are sort of looking
for that point of difference, you know,
in those kind of buildings.
So being able to give them,you know, their second
and third lives, you know,creates a real opportunity
for that embodied carbon, you know,
which I think is areally sort of, you know,
(05:06):
we're all sort of moved up the curve
on the operational side ofthings and sustainability,
but the embodied carbon challenges
is what we're sort of focused on.
- Beautiful.
Thanks, Jono.
And we'll get to thatadaptive reuse part later.
I think that's so fascinating.
But I'll go back to what you said earlier
in the sense of the scaleat which we need to do this.
We need some sort of planning.
(05:28):
We need some sort of transition.
We need some sort of roadmapabout what we need to do.
And it's a good segue to Elham
because I know the Green Building Council
have been, you know, thoughtleaders in this space.
You produced yourclimate positive roadmap.
You know what needs to happenwith our built environment.
Did you wanna give us alittle bit of a understanding
(05:48):
about what that means and what's involved?
- Sure.
This was something thatwe've been thinking about
for a long time, and we didthink about back in 2018,
which is when we first released
the climate positive roadmap.
At the time, that roadmap, you know,
it took a lot ofconsultation with industry,
so a lot of it I think youprobably think is a given now,
(06:09):
you know, given how far we've come.
But at the time,
it was really trying totackle a big problem.
And really, at the top of that
was our Paris Agreement Targets
and identifying ways thatthe built environment needed
to work towards meeting theParis Agreement Targets.
So, you know, really looking
at the highly efficientfossil fuel free built
with lower upfront carbon emissions,
(06:32):
fully powered by renewablesand offset with nature.
Again, this is like a formula
that you've become accustomed to,
but at the time, itwas definitely very new
and let's call it groundbreaking.
So that framework that was established
has been really instrumental in the way
that we, as an organisation, move forward
(06:53):
with all of the rating tools.
The GBCA, as many of you inthe room may or may not know,
we're an organisation,
we develop rating toolsand we do certification,
and that certification is independent.
So it's really important
to be able to validate the claims made.
So the climate positiveroadmap was really helpful
in that it set up that framework,
(07:13):
but also started to embed it.
It allowed us to find waysto try and incorporate it
into all of the differentrating tools that we have.
So starting off with thebuildings rating tool,
which is obviously for new builds,
but it's also been part of all
of the subsequent ratingtools that we've developed.
For example, the GreenStar Performance one,
which is probably fromwhen talking about retrofit
(07:34):
and repurpose is a reallyimportant rating tool,
but now, we're moving into ourfitouts rating tool as well.
And the whole concept of circular economy
is going to be really fundamental
to that particular rating tool.
But as well as developing roadmaps,
the GBCA and rating tools,
the GBCA knows that weneed to help industry
to try and move towardsthat pathway as well.
(07:56):
And we provide supportivedocuments that sit alongside that.
And one that I think is a really good one
for a lot of people inthe room to have a look at
is the practical guide,
the different practicalguides that we have.
So there are practical guidesfor the electrification,
for example, of new buildings,of existing buildings,
the practical guide
(08:16):
for upfront carbon sortof emissions as well.
So I think that practical guide
is where we start to breakdown what needs to be done
in a building to try and get it
to incorporate some of the requirements
and the strategies thatwe've set in place.
- Beautiful.
Absolutely.
Because, you know, it's aconflation of everything.
If you're retrofittinga building, you know,
(08:37):
you don't want to electrify
before you look at the thermal shell.
So, you know, I think yourguides are such a wonderful tool.
And if anyone hasn't seen them,
I think you shoulddefinitely check them out
because they are so useful.
And so touching on the electrification
and I might jump to you, Paul, if I can.
So, you know, the thing that's exciting
(09:00):
about electrification
and especially household electrification
is that, you know, theconsumer is at the centre.
So we've got a lot of collectiveexperience on the panel
in supporting consumers to electrify,
but could you providea bit of your insight
in relation to your experiencehelping consumers electrify?
(09:24):
- Yeah.
Hi, Allison.
Hi, everybody.
Thanks for that.
Solar Victoria is an agency
within the Department of Energy,Environment Climate Action
within Victoria.
And I'm aware there'sprobably many people here
from Victoria today.
There's a very active conversation
around replacing gas inthe home in Victoria.
And what we've seen from ourperspective from Solar Victoria
(09:47):
is we've been running now for five years
with the Solar Homes programme,which is our flagship programme,
and we've seen over 260,000Victorian households move
to put solar on therooftop of their buildings.
That brings the number ofhouses in Victoria to 600,000
that have got solar.
And it's from within thatcohort that we are seeing
because the way that SolarVictoria delivers our programme,
(10:10):
we have really great data around customer,
around what their motivators are,
what they're doing next,
and really significantmove for those customers
who are really primed onthat electrification journey,
which is really exciting.
So we're seeing...
We also deliver a incentive for hot water,
(10:30):
for energy efficient hotwater, for heat pumps.
And in that programme,
which we've had significantuplift in customer interest
in that in the last sixmonths, largely about that,
as a result of that conversationaround electrification.
Most traditionally, most hotwater and heating and cooling,
heating in the home is delivered
(10:50):
via a gas powered appliance.
So there's a big challenge for us
with so much of our carbonemissions coming from homes
and therefore from the use of gas.
So that moved to heat pumps,
moving to electric applianceswhich are efficient,
and understanding that as a result
of their own solar generationthat's on their rooftop now.
(11:13):
And the ability to beable to think about that
and improve their energy literacy
as a result of having solarand be able to use that,
think about how they canuse more of that solar
for other appliances within the home.
And it seems to be that hot water
is the next cab off the ranks.
- Beautiful.
That sounds great.
And, you know, they canobviously see the benefits.
(11:35):
Do you find, you know,not everyone is motivated
by, you know, an energy bill.
Are you finding anything particular
that really helps aconsumer make that jump?
You know, what speaks totheir, you know, heart?
- Yeah, it's a really good question.
Overwhelmingly, the primarymotivator that we've seen
over the five years of theprogramme has been the cost.
And certainly, I think ifanyone has dipped their toe
(11:57):
into the solar industry,
you would see that thatindustry is very much aligned
to a payback period.
But we are starting to seethat conversation broaden
to other factors as well.
Household motivationsaround doing their bit
for the environment isincreasing significantly.
It was a few percent when wefirst started as a motivator.
(12:20):
That cost was that primary thing.
But then also there'sbeen more conversation
around providing a home that's healthier,
that's more comfortable to live in.
Those sorts of factors arestarting to come up higher
in terms of the motivators for people
in terms of what they're doing.
And I'm talking aboutin the retrofit space.
So in the new builds,
(12:43):
it's probably a bit of adifferent discussion now,
particularly, you know,Victoria's announced a ban
on gas connections fornew planning permits
from next year, which isactually a small number
of buildings for housesfor next year and beyond.
But it's actually definitelybeen, you know, a lightning rod
(13:05):
for a discussion furtherwith the community
around the role of gas in the home
and also their investment in appliances
that, you know, we knowlast for 10 or 20 years.
And so that's certainly extended to things
like using reverse cycleair conditioners for heating
in the home and inductioncooking, those sorts of things.
And also, obviously the thermal envelope
(13:25):
as part of the NC2022 as well.
So yeah.
- Beautiful.
Thanks, Paul.
And so taking that sortof theme of motivation,
if we sort of look atanother area of opportunity,
perhaps more in our inner city office
and residential building stock.
It seems far too oftenthat underperforming assets
(13:48):
are left to rot until someone comes along
with the motivation or theplan to knock down and rebuild.
Do you see this as an opportunity, Jeff?
- Yeah, absolutely I do.
I think as Jono pointed out, you know,
it's predicted that 80% ofour buildings will be built,
are already built by 2050.
(14:10):
But I think also in particularover the past few years
with the pandemic,
there's been a lot of newopportunities emerging.
We're certainly seeing markets
who have underperforming assets
being looked at much more critically now,
both for the potentialto remain as offices
but also to be adaptivelyreused as into apartments.
But in the office market,
(14:30):
I think there's still really strong demand
for quality buildingsand quality precincts.
And there's a lot of interest in it trying
to identify those opportunitiesto increase their value.
I think in Sydney alone,
we're currently working onfour adaptive reuse projects
at the moment, notincluding the adaptive reuse
of the lands building with Built.
And we're seeing also stronginterest from both domestic
(14:51):
and international developerslooking to re-adaptively use
their existing assets in the past year
much more compared to years previous.
And some of these early proposals,
the planning authoritiesmuch to their credit
are really starting to look at ways
to incentivize developers
potentially through eitherincreased height or area,
(15:14):
obviously within thebounds of design excellence
and local environmental impacts.
But I also think thatsome of this interest
around embodying carbonfrom their perspective
is around looking to createnarratives around their products
and how do they sell these products.
So, you know, obviously funnily enough,
having a strong narrative
that will help you attract like-minded
socially conscious investorsor tenants or buyers
(15:38):
is a really strong wayof selling their product.
Also, I think Hassell'sbeen really involved,
particularly down in Melbourneover the past few months
in doing a bit of researchthat's got a lot of interest
looking at the commercialoffice market there
and identifying opportunities
to convert those existing buildings
into apartment buildings.
And that's something now thatwe're just getting underway
(15:59):
with extending that researchhere to the Sydney market,
but trying to understandthe particular differences
in land values and planning regulations,
but I think there'll besomething really compelling
to share there as well.
- That's so exciting.
You know, if you think aboutpre-COVID versus post-COVID,
you know, working from homeis becoming more of a norm,
(16:19):
so you know what to do with allthose empty office buildings
that seems like such alogical pathway, isn't it?
And with that inside, youknow, touching on the narrative
that you were sort of talking about.
Jono, you sort of talking about,you know, the opportunities
in relations to red flags and green flags.
Can you talk a bit moreabout what that means for you
(16:42):
in terms of the opportunities you see?
- Yeah.
So I actually met with theHassell guys a few times
about their piece of workthat they've kind of done.
It's really kind of interesting
'cause you start with the bigdata set of all the buildings
in CBD and it solely kinda narrows down
by certain characteristics
that make it sort of, youknow, possible or impossible
(17:04):
to kinda retrofit these buildings as well.
So I think the really kind of obvious ones
are even outside thebuilding form in itself,
like having built formlocated in good locations,
near amenity, publictransport, part of communities,
and where people really wannabe is really kind of important
for being able to kind of put several uses
(17:27):
in that kind of place as well.
And then going to thebuilt form, you know,
there's a lot of kinda technicalkinda challenges as well,
but having good floor to ceiling heights,
the structures and mainpart of what we can reuse,
and main part of any of thesort of embodied carbon,
these kind of buildings.
So having those kind of robust structures,
the right floor to ceiling heights
(17:47):
are really kind of important.
And it kinda goes to awider kind of conversation
about sustainability and lookingat sort of I love working
with the heritage buildings,
those buildings that have been there
for, you know, a hundred years plus.
And we're working on acapital at the moment,
but they were builtreally solidly and well
and are able to bereused in many purposes.
(18:07):
The old bank buildings, youknow, into commercial offices.
The lands build and educationbuildings down the city
into hotel.
And I think it's an interesting discussion
that we can start to have about
maybe, you know, building buildings
not just for the minimalsort of redundancy, you know,
that we kinda have now,
but allowing the think abouthow they would look like
(18:28):
in their second and third lives
before we already build them.
So thinking about theretrofitting opportunities
in the future as well
is kinda really whatwe're sort of focused on
as well as, you know, how we then retrofit
those kind of existing buildings,
'cause we're aware of thechallenges of the projects
that don't have the rightstructural integrity
or have the wrong facade
(18:48):
or have, you know, smallerfloor to ceiling heights
that were built for avery specific purpose,
and it's a bit of a missedopportunity there as well.
- Yeah, so, you know, thinking of sort
of risky building typologies, you know,
heritage buildings are beautiful
and, you know, that's if youbuild beautiful buildings,
of course, people wanna keep them around.
(19:08):
What about, you know, theglass towers, you know,
are they a building typology that you see
as potentially risky in termsof the second and third life?
- Yeah, I think so.
I think, you know, we needto be really kinda careful
about, you know, thosetype of sort of buildings
and, you know, they can bereused but they are harder,
you know, the work donearound the residential space,
(19:30):
not commercial buildings, not all of them,
and it's quite of asmaller percentage of them
are able to be reused into residential.
Some of them 'cause of the planning rules,
but some of them becauseof the actual amenity
and, you know, the specific nature
that they're kinda built with.
So I think, you know, some ofthose typologies are the ones
that are most kinda challengingto be able to retrofit.
(19:53):
- So going back to Elham andback to the thought leadership
of the GBCA, you know.
We're talking about heritage,
we're talking about reuse and repurposing
and second and third lives.
You've been researching or the GBCA
has been researching circulareconomy opportunities
(20:14):
for quite some time.
Can you give us asummary of what you found
and where the opportunities lie there?
- Interestingly.
Pre-COVID, things were better
from a circular economy point of view.
Yes, I got the stats from a colleague.
And yes, so it was like 9%,
(20:35):
let's call it circular economy.
Now, it's gone down to 7%.
So I think that's aninteresting shift post-COVID
because who would've thoughtit would've gone in reverse
given the advancements in our thinking
and all the rest of it.
But yes, for the GBCA, we've tried to...
You know, circular economyis definitely an area
(20:55):
that we need to continue to grow into.
I don't think we havethe full answers yet.
So at some point, there'sgoing to no doubt be roadmap
for circular economy, but not yet.
However, having said that, wehave been doing a lot of work
with organisations like theBetter Buildings Partnership.
I think there was like a summit
or something held a few weeks ago,
(21:17):
as well as releasing
the Circular Economy Innovation Challenge
into Green Star buildings.
And as I said, with the new rating tool,
we're finding the same thing with the,
I suppose, like what we are hearing,
the engagement that we're doing
and just the level of excitement
that people have currently for.
We don't even have thediscussion paper out
for the fitouts rating tool
(21:37):
but there's so much buzz about it
that we're like, wow, okay.
It is the last of the suitethat we've been developing
and we deliberately hadit last because of COVID
and we just really wanted to sit
and think about what does the future
of work I suppose look like.
But yeah, so that willdefinitely be like a common theme
within that particular rating tool.
(21:57):
But I mean the main sort ofresearch that we've found,
you know, we've tried to beembedded into the rating tools
where we can and certainlyinto the product space as well,
where we've looked at theresponsible products framework,
which looks at the different materials
and, you know, incentivizingthose that are reusable,
recyclable that are easyto deconstruct as well.
(22:19):
So I suppose like theevolution of Green Star
has changed over time as well,
whereas previously we usedto have, you know, design
for disassembly kind of credit.
It was very sort oflike singular, you know,
there was the concrete credit,
there was the steel credit.
We've tried to be moreholistic in our viewpoint,
and certainly working a lot
with the manufacturers directly as well
(22:40):
to try and get that sortof thinking, moving,
and shifting as well.
- Beautiful.
Thanks, Elham.
When you mentioned the fitout,
I sort of thought aboutJeff and Hassell, you know,
you've lived the adaptivereuse in Hassell, you know,
seeing your offices and seeingthe journey in your offices
(23:03):
about what you've done to repurpose
even down to your furniture.
I think that's such a beautiful story.
So did you wanna sort of touch on that
or, you know, maybe even looking at that
as a opportunity or a challengeto really realise this reuse
(23:23):
across, you know, at a broad scale?
- Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think, you know,
our office really is as you point out,
like a living example.
And that kind of fact ispointed out, you know,
to people who visit usbut also to our staff.
And we have just recentlyundertaken a bit of a refresh
of our studio after the kindafirst seven or eight years
(23:44):
of being there.
And yeah, we reused andrepurposed a lot of furniture,
moved it around, chopped it up, you know,
adapted it as best we could.
Obviously, budgets were tight for us all,
but I think it was a reallyclear and easy lesson
for, you know, peopleworking with us to say
that, you know, this is the way you do it.
So that certainly has been,you know, a really great tool
(24:05):
to use very directly for our own people.
- Did you find any challenges with it?
You know, have you learnedanything through that process
that could inspire, you know,people in the room today?
- Well, actually, I was kindof more thinking about the work
that we're doing with Builton the lands building.
That's been an incrediblychallenging building,
(24:25):
but incredibly rewarding process.
You know, as John was saying,it's built incredibly well,
but when you start toupgrade these buildings
to current codes and standards,not quite well enough.
So actually figuring out how you provide
the necessary structural integrity
to the certain kind ofconcrete jack arches,
which aren't really concreteand have no reinforcing
(24:47):
but have been there for 150 years.
How you provide fireratings to certain elements?
You know, it's been anincredibly technical challenge
and I've gotta give my hatoff to Jono and his team.
It's been a really immensepleasure working with them,
very professional.
Kind of going through eachsort of challenge that we face,
(25:07):
working through it one by one,
getting in the necessary experts,
consulting with who weneed to consult with.
And yeah, we've just kind ofkicked off the last phase.
We've got about another two years to go,
maybe a bit more to complete,
but it's, yeah, reallystarting to take place now
and I think it's gonnabe a real joy, you know,
for the rest of the cityto go into a building
that was otherwise reallynot open to the public
(25:28):
and see it properly for the first time.
- That's so beautiful and I love it.
You know, going back tothis whole collaboration,
it's such a team sport, you know.
You can achieve so much,you know, working together
and really bringing in allparts of the building chain
to really try and find solutions
(25:49):
that are gonna mean something for people
and building occupants.
So yeah, that's fantastic.
Going into the, you know,adaptive reuse question, you know,
back to electric homes, youknow, a lot of this is work
and people with budgets.
It's wonderful that they canenjoy these beautiful projects.
(26:12):
But, you know, equity andaccess are just as important
and, you know, we need to be aware of this
with our energy transitionwith our electrification.
Paul, can you help us understand
or give us some guidance
to make sure there'snobody left out on the way?
(26:32):
- Thanks, Alison.
I can provide some guidance.
This is a really tricky problem.
It's certainly occupyingour minds at the moment,
particularly noting that where we are
in the kind of maturity of the programme
that we're now delivering five years in.
Solar, the top 20 suburbs thathave received solar rebates
from us over the first five years
(26:54):
are all outer growth ringsuburbs of Melbourne.
They're low hanging fruit whenit comes to detached homes,
suitable for solar, largerooftops, modern switchboards,
all the rest of it.
They're the low hangingfruit for that industry.
So there's probably twopoints for me to make.
One is how do we get anindustry who is geared up
(27:18):
and able to tackle the tricky problems?
Despite the fact that thathas been a low hanging fruit
has helped actually to createa really strong supply chain.
We've been able to work withindustry on quality standards,
on competencies of installers,those sorts of things.
And they are, you know,looking for the next thing
(27:39):
in terms of that.
And so we continue to wantto work with industry I think
in terms of those capabilities,
and seeing not just a discreetproduct like a solar system
but also how you have a relationship,
a longer term relationshipwith a household
to that sees opportunitiesto do further upgrades,
either as part of a deep retrofit upfront
(28:00):
if they've got their financialwherewithal to do that,
or if it's a progressivething that happens
over a few years.
And then they're given that advice
that comes, you know, from an industry
who they actually have avery high rating of trust in
to be able to do that.
The second point I think though
is around getting the incentives right
to get through some of thosebarriers and disincentives.
(28:23):
And we are really excited.
Last week our ministerand the federal minister
announced a new programmeto tackle rooftop solar
for people who live in apartment buildings
that will see an increaseof our incentive,
a doubling of our incentiveto $2,800 per apartment.
(28:43):
So that is a traditionallya harder to reach,
but there are solutions available
that do enable those people to,
and we've actually put someof them in place already
that we'll put that do create,you know, opportunities
for access to renewable energy.
And then again, there's that same starting
(29:04):
of the conversation of vehiclearound electrification,
thermal envelope andcontinuing to do things
with those households.
And then the other Ithink is opportunities
in the social housing space as well.
There's similarly anannouncement last week
around a big increase toVictoria's energy efficiency
and social housing programme.
(29:24):
That's really exciting as well,
'cause they wanted tosee us be able to shift
to a deeper rich retrofit of those homes,
which will be great for thebeneficiaries of those homes
who can least afford to do that.
In fact they can't 'cause thehomes are owned by the state,
but certainly, it's out of reach for them.
But also, it's creating an industry
who has the capabilityto be able to do that.
(29:45):
And hopefully, we couldsee ways to leverage that
to provide, you know, morecommercial opportunities
that, you know, more ofthe households can access.
- That's beautiful
and great lessons forthe rest of the country.
I think, you know, learningfrom say, the pilots
to figure out, you know, whatworks at scale, you know.
(30:05):
We could really learn
from what the Victorian government's done,
especially via Solar Victoria.
And that's probably a goodsegue to my final question
before we go to the audience.
And it's just a quick fire question
to each of the panel members.
And I might start with you Paul.
If you could pick one lever to pull
(30:27):
to achieve that broadscale impact, you know,
across Australia basedon what you've learned,
what would it be?
- Okay.
Wow.
Look, I think we're activelyhaving a conversation
with the community aboutthe need to do upgrades
to their homes.
(30:48):
And so I think we are unpackingthat with the community
and that's really going along well.
Like from Solar Victoria's point of view,
we've got incentivesthat are really helping
to enable that conversation,build capability,
build, you know, a muchhigher percentage of homes
that are more comfortable,that are more energy efficient,
(31:08):
and are generating their own power.
There is a point though
where I think we're gonna have
to have a bit more of aconversation around regulation.
I guess I'd probably say my one wish
is just we probably needto bring that forward now.
It's time to start havingthat conversation around
even if it's into the future
and it's a long termconsideration that this is coming,
(31:30):
but that it will become ubiquitous.
That you'll live in aenergy efficient home
that is comfortable
and that is doing itsbit for the environment.
Yeah.
- Yeah. Signals very important.
Neighbours is fabulous at signals.
I love it.
And Jeff, if you had a magicwand, what would it be?
- Well, I think we need tostart really placing a value
on embodied carbon.
(31:51):
You know, it's true that Ithink the greenest building
is the one that's already built.
And at the moment, you know,
our kind of currentdecision-making frameworks
really only prioritise costtime and commercial risk.
And in my work with Mecla,
sharing the aluminium working group,
we've seen what the effectthat's had on industry,
you know, where so much ofwhat we make and produce comes
from overseas.
(32:11):
And our own local domesticcapability and capacities
are really in some areasteachering on non-existent.
So yeah, I think we've gotta start
to look at carbon sitting equal to
alongside all the other metrics
that we traditionally have considered.
- He-he.
And Elham.
- Good question.
I've been listening to the otherpanellists and I'm thinking,
(32:33):
okay, we've ticked off regulation,
we've ticked off, you know, having valued.
I would say in addition
to what the other panellists have said,
I think it's important tobe able to also have a...
So I mean I think the neighbours
sort of what was presentedearlier was really great
because a common way of beingable to measure these things
(32:55):
and verifying them isreally important as well.
Because without that,
then it's hard to reallymeasure the scale of the impact
and to demonstrate thatthings have been delivered.
Obviously, having the finance sector
really driving that aswell is really important
and that's certainly what we've found
through the work that we've done.
And having that sort of recognition
(33:16):
by different financialinstitutions is really important
because it's been able toreally help us scale up a lot
of the programme and certainlyI think has been helpful
in driving a lot of thedemand that we're seeing
for rating tools like Green Star.
So yeah, having thecomparability and measurability
and then having the financesector be able to, again,
(33:36):
another form of signalling I suppose
to say that this is really important.
I think those two togethercan be very impactful.
- Absolutely.
Thank you.
And last but not least,Jono, what do you think?
- Yeah, so I think, look,
I've been talking really high level today
and I think for the rest ofthe day the exciting part
is being able to listento some more theoretical
(33:57):
and real case studies on the retrofit.
But some of these are only possible
and possible at large scaleif we both incentivize
and change some of our sort ofplanning regulations as well.
So we really need to.
And all of us have anopportunity to do this push
on our authorities to createincentives and flexibility
around buildings that are working
(34:19):
with adaptive reuse projects
and are working with thatembodied carbon framework as well.
At the moment, there'salmost a bit of a penalty
by how hard they are to kindado compared to new builds
that we need to like really continue
to push our authorities,particularly around planning,
and our councils and governments
about how we can incentivize people
to kinda reuse these existing buildings.
(34:39):
So I'm doing some work
with the Property Councilof Australia at the moment,
for example, and we're reallysort of focused on that,
but I think everybodyin their own industry
has an opportunity to kindof push where they can
to kind of help sortof change that as well.
- Beautiful.
Oh, that's music to my ears.
I think you've all hitthe nail on the head.
What I might do now is ask the audience
(35:01):
if you have any questionsfor our panel members
in relation to...
Oh, we've covered a whole range of topics,
but, you know, adaptive reuse,electrification, the journey.
We have Sam over here.
Oh.
Oh, we've got one microphone,
so we'll go Stanford first and then Sam.
Thank you.
(35:21):
- Hi, I've got the mic.
Hi, Stanford Harrisonfrom the Commonwealth.
Just a question whentalking about retrofits
and adaptive reuse, youtalked about land values,
practical considerations,planning regulations.
You know, one of theimportant regulatory tools
(35:41):
in the landscape is to do
with the national construction code
and, of course, everybody,you know, knows it applies
to new construction, alsoapplies to renovations
and refurbishments in adifferent way in each state
and it's applied in different ways now.
Really interested in how important is this
and how much of a factoris it in retrofits
and adaptive reuse considerations?
(36:05):
- I can take that one.
As a builder and developer,
I think that's where wecan add a lot of value.
You're right.
On a retrofit scale,the NCC particular is,
can be interpreted a fewdifferent kind of ways,
particularly dealing with theexisting structures as well.
So we'd like to tryand get in really early
(36:25):
and that's the advantage
of having the in-house building capability
when we're looking at kind of developments
to kind of, you know, flag thoseideas with the authorities,
our certifiers, you know,all of our consultants
to work out, you know,those kind of challenges
and problems kind of early on.
But it's something
that probably needs,you know, some potential
to have a bit more of sortof framework about it,
(36:47):
about where the kind ofline starts and stops
when you're working withadaptive reuse kind of projects
for that.
And sometimes it's abit of an interpretation
of the regulations rather than that,
but it's a very good point,
because it's something that we encounter
in these projects every day.
- You'd be well aware of what's happening
in other parts of the world
and the kind of advocacythat's going on to embed
(37:08):
kind of embodying body carbon calculations
and for planning submissionsand within the building code.
So I think that's somethinghopefully we'll start
to see here more.
And, you know, my colleaguesin the UK as part of ACAN,
the kind of efficacy hasbeen sort of quite tireless
in lobbying to governmentto make the case for this.
So I like to think that, Iprobably shouldn't say this,
(37:30):
but it's typically we'llkind of follow second suit
and kind of take their lead.
But yeah, I think it's certainly coming.
- Well, we'll go to Sam.
You've got a microphone?
- I do.
Thanks very much, Alison.
Sam putt from Hassell.
Quick question for Elham I think.
We've had some really good perspectives
from kind of peoplewearing different hats,
but, Elham, the GreenBuilding Council has members
(37:52):
that sit all around a projecttable or portfolio table.
Yeah.
And I just wanted to askyou what you think may need
to change in the level of collaboration
or the role of each of those hats?
So we've got developers,builders, designers,
engineers, investors, the lot.
What do you think needsto change in that dynamic
to create true new value to elevate
(38:16):
to where we need to get to
from a retrofit and existingbuildings perspective?
- Yes.
What needs to change?
I think having thoseconversations earlier,
I think that's the critical component.
So you talked about thefact that you get in early,
so it means that you can reallystart to identify the issues
(38:39):
and also identify the potential as well.
And I think that's themain sort of ingredient
that it's often a matter of time
and bringing in the rightpeople in at the right time
and having those conversations
that are also quite specific as well,
because a lot of this worked
in relation to, you know,retrofit and repurpose.
(38:59):
You kinda need to have thatend goal in mind in some ways.
So you need to know what it isthat you're trying to create,
but also, so having, Iguess, the client there
and the potential tenants as well.
So really just having theright people in the room
at the right time Ithink is the main issue,
because often what happens,
and I'm not saying this is whathappens with your projects,
(39:19):
but a lot of these sort ofdecisions happen quite later on
where there's been a lotof missed opportunities.
So sort of going back to thatcircular economy example.
Circular economy is gonna be really hard
if a lot of design elementsare already been locked in
for someone to then come inand start talking about like,
hey, what can we do?
Let's try and repurpose X, Y, and Z.
(39:41):
So I think that's the mainthing that comes to mind.
- Hello.
Joe Carton here from Bill.
Quick one for Jono and Jeff.
You know, I'm the biggestchampion for reusing buildings.
I think it's incredibly important.
But I've just come fromthe Property Council's
designing buildings thatwork for everyone breakfast.
And Nas Campanella wasthere and Liesl Tesch,
(40:04):
Liesl Tesch parliamentarysecretary for inclusivity,
and she challenged everyone tosay, if I came to your house,
could my wheelchairfit into your bathroom?
Could I get into your bathroomand use your bathroom?
And I gotta say, in myhouse, it wouldn't happen.
And I have a child with disabilities.
So how do we manage to caterfor people with disabilities
whilst relifing, repurposing,
(40:26):
retrofitting existing buildings
that weren't designed for that
in a way that financially stacks up?
And what barriers need to be removed
in order to design buildingsthat do work for everyone?
- That's a very good andchallenging question.
It's certainly been something
that we've had to work veryclosely with our DDA consultant
on the lands building.
(40:48):
You know, the fact thatwe're kind of trying
to balance that equity and access
with the kind of heritageaspects of the building.
So having one dedicated entry
for that kind of equitable access,
which then leads straightinto a clear circulation path
to use the lifts,
which are obviously beingadded into the building.
You know, unfortunately,
(41:09):
the challenges around providing access
to some of the more grand entries
where we currently riseup eight to 12 stairs
was just too much to kind of an impact
to provide access to each ofthe four different entries
along that building.
But we did work very hardin terms of making sure
that each room type was accessible.
(41:31):
Yes, in some cases, doorwaysdid need to be widened.
There's lots of complicationsaround providing auto-openers
and things like that.
So it was a really rigorous process
and it's actually still going on.
Just this week, we've been looking
at all the thresholddetails at each doorway
because the floor level's gonna change.
So what's the kind of rise?
And it's an incredibly detailed thing
(41:53):
that has ramificationsall through the design,
but it's part of it and we'vebeen really enjoying it.
- Thank you, panel members.
Really wonderful.
(audience clapping)
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