They say there's no place like home.
In Europe, Australia, the US and Asia - there's not enough quality housing stock to go around, and limited affordable choice in the types of homes available.
The current generation of renters and buyers are connected, design-savvy and socially aware. They are driving the demand for homes that challenge traditional models of living.
They’ve also lived through the pandemic, so they need to be able to work comfortably from home with a supportive community around them. They desire access to green space, and amenities and convenience. They want quality homes suited to a changing climate.
The market's crying out for change.
They also say that necessity is the mother of invention.So – could we be on the cusp of a whole new range of housing alternatives?
It's looking like we could be. There are quality alternatives and ideas that turn traditional ideas of housing on its head and the industry and market are mature enough to support those trying to make a difference.
To explore this we invited Michael McCormack co-founder behind small but mighty development firm Milieu to join co-lead of the residential sector, Jeremy Schluter.
Michael is a passionate advocate for improved urban design and is also Deputy Chair and a member of the Board at the Centre for Contemporary Photography. Milieu are a certified B Corp™, a global community of for-profit leaders who pledge to use business as a force for good.
Milieu’s reputation for crafting beautifully conceived apartments driven by progressive urban design and exemplary architecture, such as Otter Place has resulted in a following in Melbourne and Sydney, with Milieu’s buildings gaining fans, awards and accolades. Just don't call them a 'luxury developer'!
The episode was recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri Woi-Wurrung people. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, acknowledge the custodianship of its people and the privilege and responsibility to Connect with Country.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(gentle music)
- From Global Design practice Hassell,
this is Hassell Talks, a podcast series
looking at a changing and complex world
and the opportunities for design
to create a better place for everyone.
It's a series that isunashamedly optimistic
about creating a beautiful,inclusive, and resilient future.
(00:23):
I acknowledge the Wurundjeri,
Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation,
their elders past andpresent as traditional owners
of the land of Naarm orMelbourne where I live,
work, and play, and pay my respects
to the First Nations people
across Australia ascustodians of these lands.
I'm Jeremy Schluter.
I'm an architect and Ico-lead the residential sector
(00:46):
at Hassell, which meansI spend a lot of time
thinking about how we liveand how we can live better.
They say there's no place like home.
For many in Australia right now,
there literally is no place to call home.
Put simply, we are around1,000,000 homes short
of what we need to have enough shelter
for the current andexpected population growth.
(01:08):
We're not alone with thischallenge, of course.
Cities in Sweden, Germany, Greece, Ireland
and France are all experiencingan acute rental shortage.
No surprises that in anabsence of options for housing,
the housing affordability crisis
places incredible pressure on markets,
one part of a cost of living crisis
impacting both buyers and renters.
(01:29):
The market is ready, desperately so,
to see alternatives to housing
that will ease this challenge.
To explain what I meanby housing alternatives,
10 years ago we thought homes
could only be a house and a suburb
or an apartment in a tower in the city,
and now we know there'san entire spectrum.
There are more ways to live now,
from townhouses tosubdivided housing units,
(01:51):
to public affordable privateinvestor rentals built to rent,
premium owner occupy apartments
and increasingly qualityapartment options,
specifically targeting familiesand the first home buyer.
If you live in Melbourne,you may have heard
of Nightingale andAssemble's built to rent
to own model that do just that.
Intersecting these is an eager,
(02:11):
educated market who knows design.
They know about sustainabilityand climate challenges.
They've lived through the pandemic,
so they need to be ableto work comfortably
from home with a supportivecommunity around them.
They also desire greenspace and amenities.
So could we be on thecusp of a whole new range
of housing alternatives?
(02:32):
Is the housing crisis leading us
to embrace new design solutionsfor our homes and cities?
I wanted to pick the brainsof a couple of people
right in the thick of this,
people and organisationsexploring and investing
in alternative housing models
to see just how much this housing crisis
is leading to new designsolutions for our cities.
(02:53):
Michael McCormack is the co-founder
and Managing Director behind small
but mighty development firmMilieu, Milieu's reputation
for crafting beautifullyconceived apartments
that are sustainable quality homes
for people has resultedin a bit of a following
in cities such as Melbourne and Sydney,
with Milieu's buildings gainingfans, awards and accolades.
(03:14):
Just don't call them a luxury developer.
Milieu have built a strong reputation
as one of the good guys.
Their projects are driven bya strong social conscience
and embedded in their local communities,
which you'll hear about in this episode.
I am lucky enough to work with Milieu
and Mike in Hassell's designfor Otter Place by Milieu,
(03:34):
28 residential apartments in the heart
of Collingwood, currentlyunder construction.
We'll pop a link in the shownotes so you can check it out.
Milieu's work to me enriches the argument
that inner-city living results in viable,
appropriate and sustainable options
and the success here has the potential
to influence all new design solutions.
(03:56):
I started by asking Mikeabout the appetite out there
for the Milieu approach.
What has he noticedabout the common threads
connecting people and projects?
Overwhelmingly, the peoplethat look to our projects
have a strong interestin design and passion
for design and appreciation of design.
I would say that there'sa social mindedness
(04:20):
to them as well for sure,
but there's various ends of the spectrum.
But just generally there'dbe a social conscience,
people that are purchasing our property,
so there's an interestin the social initiatives
that we do, but alsoenvironmental policies,
environmental performance of the projects.
I'd say that they are usually quite astute
(04:42):
and mature and want a sense of providence
and a sense of uniqueness in their homes.
For us, we're super awarethat the number one decision
about where people choose to live
is not the buildingthat they're living in.
It's the area that they're living in
and they're choosing an area based on,
(05:03):
I guess a whole bunch of things,
but often to do with theculture within the area
and the community within the area.
So we're super awarethat we benefit greatly
from the community and theculture within that area,
and it's to our benefit to foster that
and contribute to that.
So we do a bunch of things.
We have a hospitality business,
which works long after we'vebeen developing the property.
(05:25):
It continues to foster community
and contribute to communitythrough the ground plane
of our buildings.
We also work with localarts organisations like CCP,
who's in Fitzroy, and support them
and contribute to them.
Through our hospitality business,
we have a for-purposeinitiative called Open Kitchen,
(05:47):
which at least it was born out of COVID
where we were looking to provide meals
for people that had lost their jobs
or didn't have any support,and that's continued on.
We are a certified B corporation,
which has a whole bunchof social initiatives
as part of our commitmentto that certification.
(06:10):
It's a really quiteinteresting relationship
as a property developer recognising
all the juxtaposition betweenwhat we do and First Nations,
and we're aware of that,but we look to respond
to that through thescheme paying the rent.
- That social element is really important
and it's certainly one of the things
(06:32):
we've noticed of thework that you guys do,
is taking responsibility for the culture,
the community, and the social legacy
of each of those buildings,each of those places.
Because too often we see a 7-Eleven
or a nail sell on or a vacantshop left on the ground plane
(06:53):
of some of these residential developments.
- Completely, most builtto sell developments
are sold off the plan and they're sold
through beautiful brochures and developers
put a lot of work intopreparing amazing renders
and amazing collateral.
As part of that, theyproduce these amazing renders
of wine bars and cafesand stuff like that,
but what they're focusing on is selling
(07:15):
the predominant part of the building,
which is everything above ground floor,
and they often forget aboutthe small sort of 100,
150 square metre space at ground floor,
but that space does so much to contribute
to the community andcan be such a positive,
but also if you get it wrong,
negative part of the development.
(07:36):
We're also aware that that space,
if you don't own one of our buildings
or own one of our apartmentsor know someone that does,
it might be the only thingthat you interact with.
So it might be the only time
that we have an opportunityto present a positive light
from a brand perspective.
So yeah, for us it's asuper important space
(07:57):
and we put a lot of effortinto our ground plan.
- What do you think they'reincreasingly looking for
lately in response to,
there's obviously a lot of trends
impacting the housingmarket at the moment.
The pandemic is a bit ofhistory, but it's still,
I think, impacting our homes
and what people are looking for.
There's also the cost of livingcrisis, rising inflation,
(08:19):
energy costs and housingaffordability in that.
I know there's a lot in there,
but are there somecommon themes and threads
that people are lookingfor more so these days?
- I think you touched ona lot of it just then,
but tackling some of it.
An attainable house for sure,like a good quality home.
We're not a luxury developer by any means.
(08:40):
We never want to be a luxury developer.
We certainly have seenoff the back of COVID
a real desire to have spaceand even your own space.
A number of people that have been looking
at our apartments mostrecently potentially
have been renting a share house
or with friends and they're looking to buy
(09:01):
an apartment now to havetheir own sense of space,
and if they owned a place andthey were in an apartment,
they're certainly nowlooking for more space,
in particular spaces thatthey can use during the day.
Obviously a study is a bigone for working from home,
but a sense of communitywe're seeing, absolutely
and not a forced community,
but a casual community, notorganised events necessarily,
(09:26):
but knowing that you have a neighbour
and you can run into them in the hallway,
and just that idea of casual community
I think is a really compelling thing
at the moment after we'veall spent a lot of time
away from each other.
- Here's a big topic.
How do you think the changing face
of the Great Australian Dream
(09:47):
and the housing affordability challenge
is influencing the futureof Australian housing
living and, or the residential market?
- When we started, westarted in response to that,
trying to provideattainable homes for people
and good quality attainable homes, but
we were looking at it from anowner occupied perspective.
Then over the courseof the last five years,
(10:09):
project scale has typically got smaller,
focused on owner occupiers,but most recently,
there is a new type ofdevelopment built to rent,
which has increased the scale
and it's focused onrenters like those projects
were in a sense, but in this case,
I feel like it's a much better outcome,
a much more qualityoutcome because the owners
(10:34):
are all so a single entityfocused on delivering
a great outcome for renters, they have to.
- In some ways, I feellike it's been a challenge
and it's been a lot forpeople to get their heads
around this evolving idea of the house
with the picket fenceand the home ownership,
but in some ways, asthe challenge evolves,
(10:55):
it has opened up new housing options,
new housing alternatives
and new housing models and innovations,
particularly in Australia that have meant
that there's more choice out there
for how people want to live,where they want to live.
And I think in some waysthat's quite exciting.
- Oh, I completely agree.
I can imagine a worldnow off the back of COVID
(11:19):
and the advances in technology,
both from working from home,
but also autonomous vehicles
and built to rent and all thethings that have going on.
In the not too distant future,
I can see people having a property
in the city that theydon't own, but they rent
as well as a property
that might be more affordable regionally
(11:40):
and spending time working
from that regional property
because that's so muchmore able to be done now,
commuting when they need to commute
through an autonomous vehicle.
Again, I don't feellike it's that far away,
and then staying in Melbourneat their rental property.
Yeah, I think it's exciting in terms
(12:00):
of the advancements and again,
the challenges that havecreated opportunities
through COVID but also theadvancements in technology.
- And that was aboutchanging from the demand
for a home to being ableto convince the market
that you can get all of that closer
in an apartment if the apartmentis high enough quality.
(12:23):
- Yeah, definitely, I think housing
is becoming really expensive to build
and property, buying landis becoming really expensive
to build, so the response tothat is higher density housing,
and as that becomes more accepted
(12:44):
and a more mature market,hopefully the market
will push us to deliverreally great quality
higher density housing,
and then we need tofocus on all the spaces
outside of the housing.
One of my favourite places,
and maybe this is becauseI've been a tourist
when I've been there, but I love Paris
because it has really quite great.
(13:05):
If you live in the middle of Paris,
you live probably in an apartment
and it's a very consistentfive level height.
There's not a lot of high rise.
It's just a very consistentfive level height,
but there is a lot of amenity people use.
There's not so much internal amenity
within apartments
except there's those largeprivate courtyard areas,
but I think that idea ofthat shared civic amenity
(13:31):
is such an important attributeof high density living.
So one, I guess that theidea of apartment living,
I think that's certainly matured
and people are becoming more comfortable
with the idea of living in apartments,
but the idea of owning your own home
and that might be an apartment,
certainly still has its challenges.
And I think the idea of creatingbetter rental properties
(13:54):
that have security of tenure
and are like owning your own home,
you can do things with them that you would
if you owned the propertyand giving people
the flexibility and I guess the freedom
around that is the future of, I guess,
residential living, particularlyin the cities, I feel.
(14:16):
- Where do you thinksustainability fits in these days?
- It's not what we lead with.
It's a pillar of our projects,but that doesn't mean
that it's not super important.
It's just not all that we are.
I think there's particularbrands outside of development,
but also in development thathave that as their lead.
(14:40):
And I think if you look at what we do
from a sustainability perspective,
the type of work thatwe're doing is on parallel
with their work
from a sustainabilitycredentials perspective,
but it's not what we lead with.
So we have a saying or an approach
(15:01):
to sustainability assustainability is standard.
It should be standard in all projects
and it should be a really important part,
but it shouldn't be,it's not an amazing thing
to have a sustainable building,it just should be done.
And we try and focus onthe big moves in buildings,
not the add-ons and not the fancy things,
(15:22):
but getting the buildingright from the outset.
- In some ways, I'd almost argue
that that is not a revolutionary,
but a unique and progressiveway to look at sustainability,
where it should be a fundamental,it should be a baseline.
It shouldn't be somethingthat separates or is unique.
(15:46):
- Oh, absolutely, I feel liketo what I was talking about
before about how amazing developers
are packaging up projects these days.
One of the parts of thatin particular markets
is an arms race on sustainability.
And I think it's all about star ratings
and just a checklist of things
that you can put in yourbrochure that you're doing.
(16:09):
But yeah, often it's the stuff
that is not easily described in a brochure
that's the big moves in aproject that's just as important.
Part of the problem ofbuilt to sell development,
but also what can lead to great change
and be a real strength isthat it's purchase or lead.
(16:31):
It's certainly developed as a driven
by the market in selling apartments,
and there's definitelya growing consciousness
or conscience around sustainability.
So I think it's in a pretty good spot.
I'd like to see, and it'scertainly a policy of ours,
no gas in residential buildings.
(16:54):
It's not required and it'sone of the very big moves
that you can do to improvethe sustainability credentials
of your projects, andit's certainly something
that's absolutely a policy of ours.
And then beyond that, I think cars,
this obsession with cars.
(17:16):
All of our projects are in, literally,
you could walk to the city of the project
that you and I are doingtogether, mate, in Collingwood.
People love the convenience of the car,
but my bet is at Otter Street,
when people purchasethere, most of the week
they're not using their car.
So how do you create an opportunity
(17:40):
for them to feel comfortablenot to have a car
when they're still on the weekend,
might want access to a car?
So I'd love to see more developments
with share cars within the developments
that allow people to haveaccess to an electric vehicle,
but not necessarily own a car themselves
when it's just sitting in acar park five days a week.
(18:03):
I think one of the interesting challenges,
conversations around thecar is we know cities
and planners want all basement parking
and they don't want anyparking above ground,
but we're seeing some developers push back
on that with providingflexible mobility hubs
above ground that can beconverted in a few years
(18:28):
based on actual user demand, more possible
in a built to rent projectwhere you can monitor use
and if they're not gettingused, you can tweak the size
of your car park, hardto do in a basement.
- Yeah, I think that's really interesting.
A couple of our projects,we've been forward-looking
and working with our design team
(18:50):
around what those spacesmight be in the future,
because buildings are here for a long time
and I don't think it's that faraway between autonomous cars
and less people owning cars.
And then you've got all these basements
that need to have alternate uses.
(19:10):
So how do you createsomething for those spaces,
or can you think about thatnow so that they can be used
in a different way in 20 years?
- Is there someone or adeveloper or a designer
or a project that you are notinvolved in that you think
is doing that really well
and is pushing the residential market,
(19:32):
the future of our homesin the right direction?
- Completely, absolutely,I'm a huge supporter
and fan of other developers' work
to the point where westarted, we actually started
this initiative calledBuilding Better Cities,
and it was born out anumber of friends of mine
(19:56):
are architects, justbecause I spend all day
at work and therefore myfriends are the people
that I hang out with.
- We're also great people, but.
- Yeah, of course.
- No.
- Of course, so I go alongto these architectural awards
or architecture evenings, and what I saw
was such a collegial, collaborative,
(20:17):
supportive bunch of peoplethat would get excited
about each other's projectsand provide input and support.
And I was like, "Why doesn't that exist
in the development industry on a scale
it does in the architecture world?"
(20:38):
And I came to theconclusion that developers,
we're all bloody competitive,super competitive
in what we do, and youwant the commercial edge
in everything that you're doing
because it's very competitive.
You've got to buy sites andyou've got to find the edge.
So we're pretty closed and we don't share,
but I've been followinga number of developers
(20:59):
both in Melbourne, inAustralia, but also overseas.
That inspired me and Ireached out to a number
of these developers outside of Australia
because I thought, well, they'renot competing against us,
so therefore everyone's probablymore comfortable to share.
Also, share some of thechallenges that they had,
be open and honest aboutthe challenges they had,
but also share projectsand what's worked well.
(21:22):
And to my surprise, anumber of the developers
that I'd followed and loved for some time,
they were really keen to bea part of this initiative.
So what we do is we catchup once a month or so
and we share with each other.
It's like a counselling session almost,
it feels at times, where we talk about.
- A developers shed.
- Yeah, it's really good.
We talk about the projectsthat we've got on,
(21:43):
some of the challenges,what's worked well,
but we also inspire eachother and some of the work.
So the people that area part or the groups
that are a part of that.
There's a group out of Brooklyn
that is pretty similar in nature
in terms of they're verylocalised to us called Alloy.
There's a really amazingcreative developer
(22:05):
out of BC in Canada called Arise.
And in the UK there's another developer
called Parabola thatis part of that group.
But Melbourne, probably maybe
because I know the market so well,
but also I think Melbourne has bred
a really great cohort of developers.
(22:27):
We're working with NeoMetro, we've just finished
a project with Neometro, and yeah,
they inspired me when Ifirst started our business,
and I think they'restill doing great work.
I think Nightingale do amazing work
and really push all of usto improve on many levels.
(22:47):
Developers, there sucha negative connotation
about developers.
Even like I was surfing this morning
out at Tullamarine atthe surf park out there,
and someone asked me what I did,
and I always feel a bit oddsaying I'm a property developer.
The conversation doesn'tusually go past that point,
(23:09):
or very far at least often.
And the perception is that we all wear
blue pin striped suits andlooking at Excel spreadsheets
with dollar signs on them.
But for us, we try andthink about it differently
and change the perception of developers.
We really feel that what we do is creative
and we call it creative development,
(23:31):
and we feel like we're partof the creative process
rather than a directorof it or just instructing
our collaborators that we work with.
So I guess, yeah, we'recertainly trying to change
the perception of developers.
- It's been a couple of months
since I recorded this chat with Mike,
(23:53):
and these challenges arecertainly still front and centre
of the property debate.
The continued global complexities
and cost of livingchallenges do seem destined
to stick around, for now at least,
but the opportunities arealso just as relevant.
With so many housingalternatives to consider,
housing alternatives that do a better job
of sustainability, community connection,
(24:15):
providing green spaces andbetter living outcomes,
the future looks bright.
In a discerning marketwhen costs are tight,
quality design andscrutiny over what people
are buying and renting hasnever been more important.
Delivering quality housingwith humanity will provide
real choices and confidenceto the community,
a housing future thatdesigns better cities
(24:35):
and enriches lives.
Our next chat in thisHousing Future series
looks to that larger city scale
and some of those real housingchoices in a bit more detail.
So look out for that one coming soon.
Thanks to Mike for histime, his investment
into providing qualityhousing and his enthusiasm
in this topic, and thanksto you, our listeners.
(24:57):
We know you're as passionateabout the role design plays
in creating a beautiful,resilient and inclusive future
as we are. I'm Jeremy Schluter.
You've been listening to anepisode of Hassell Talks.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent.
(gentle music)
(gentle music)
- From Global Design practice Hassell,
this is Hassell Talks, a podcast series
looking at a changing and complex world
and the opportunities for design
to create a better place for everyone.
It's a series that isunashamedly optimistic
about creating a beautiful,inclusive, and resilient future.
(00:23):
I acknowledge the Wurundjeri,
Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation,
their elders past andpresent as traditional owners
of the land of Naarm orMelbourne where I live,
work, and play, and pay my respects
to the First Nations people
across Australia ascustodians of these lands.
I'm Jeremy Schluter.
I'm an architect and Ico-lead the residential sector
(00:46):
at Hassell, which meansI spend a lot of time
thinking about how we liveand how we can live better.
They say there's no place like home.
For many in Australia right now,
there literally is no place to call home.
Put simply, we are around1,000,000 homes short
of what we need to have enough shelter
for the current andexpected population growth.
(01:08):
We're not alone with thischallenge, of course.
Cities in Sweden, Germany, Greece, Ireland
and France are all experiencingan acute rental shortage.
No surprises that in anabsence of options for housing,
the housing affordability crisis
places incredible pressure on markets,
one part of a cost of living crisis
impacting both buyers and renters.
(01:29):
The market is ready, desperately so,
to see alternatives to housing
that will ease this challenge.
To explain what I meanby housing alternatives,
10 years ago we thought homes
could only be a house and a suburb
or an apartment in a tower in the city,
and now we know there'san entire spectrum.
There are more ways to live now,
from townhouses tosubdivided housing units,
(01:51):
to public affordable privateinvestor rentals built to rent,
premium owner occupy apartments
and increasingly qualityapartment options,
specifically targeting familiesand the first home buyer.
If you live in Melbourne,you may have heard
of Nightingale andAssemble's built to rent
to own model that do just that.
Intersecting these is an eager,
(02:11):
educated market who knows design.
They know about sustainabilityand climate challenges.
They've lived through the pandemic,
so they need to be ableto work comfortably
from home with a supportivecommunity around them.
They also desire greenspace and amenities.
So could we be on thecusp of a whole new range
of housing alternatives?
(02:32):
Is the housing crisis leading us
to embrace new design solutionsfor our homes and cities?
I wanted to pick the brainsof a couple of people
right in the thick of this,
people and organisationsexploring and investing
in alternative housing models
to see just how much this housing crisis
is leading to new designsolutions for our cities.
(02:53):
Michael McCormack is the co-founder
and Managing Director behind small
but mighty development firmMilieu, Milieu's reputation
for crafting beautifullyconceived apartments
that are sustainable quality homes
for people has resultedin a bit of a following
in cities such as Melbourne and Sydney,
with Milieu's buildings gainingfans, awards and accolades.
(03:14):
Just don't call them a luxury developer.
Milieu have built a strong reputation
as one of the good guys.
Their projects are driven bya strong social conscience
and embedded in their local communities,
which you'll hear about in this episode.
I am lucky enough to work with Milieu
and Mike in Hassell's designfor Otter Place by Milieu,
(03:34):
28 residential apartments in the heart
of Collingwood, currentlyunder construction.
We'll pop a link in the shownotes so you can check it out.
Milieu's work to me enriches the argument
that inner-city living results in viable,
appropriate and sustainable options
and the success here has the potential
to influence all new design solutions.
(03:56):
I started by asking Mikeabout the appetite out there
for the Milieu approach.
What has he noticedabout the common threads
connecting people and projects?
Overwhelmingly, the peoplethat look to our projects
have a strong interestin design and passion
for design and appreciation of design.
I would say that there'sa social mindedness
(04:20):
to them as well for sure,
but there's various ends of the spectrum.
But just generally there'dbe a social conscience,
people that are purchasing our property,
so there's an interestin the social initiatives
that we do, but alsoenvironmental policies,
environmental performance of the projects.
I'd say that they are usually quite astute
(04:42):
and mature and want a sense of providence
and a sense of uniqueness in their homes.
For us, we're super awarethat the number one decision
about where people choose to live
is not the buildingthat they're living in.
It's the area that they're living in
and they're choosing an area based on,
(05:03):
I guess a whole bunch of things,
but often to do with theculture within the area
and the community within the area.
So we're super awarethat we benefit greatly
from the community and theculture within that area,
and it's to our benefit to foster that
and contribute to that.
So we do a bunch of things.
We have a hospitality business,
which works long after we'vebeen developing the property.
(05:25):
It continues to foster community
and contribute to communitythrough the ground plane
of our buildings.
We also work with localarts organisations like CCP,
who's in Fitzroy, and support them
and contribute to them.
Through our hospitality business,
we have a for-purposeinitiative called Open Kitchen,
(05:47):
which at least it was born out of COVID
where we were looking to provide meals
for people that had lost their jobs
or didn't have any support,and that's continued on.
We are a certified B corporation,
which has a whole bunchof social initiatives
as part of our commitmentto that certification.
(06:10):
It's a really quiteinteresting relationship
as a property developer recognising
all the juxtaposition betweenwhat we do and First Nations,
and we're aware of that,but we look to respond
to that through thescheme paying the rent.
- That social element is really important
and it's certainly one of the things
(06:32):
we've noticed of thework that you guys do,
is taking responsibility for the culture,
the community, and the social legacy
of each of those buildings,each of those places.
Because too often we see a 7-Eleven
or a nail sell on or a vacantshop left on the ground plane
(06:53):
of some of these residential developments.
- Completely, most builtto sell developments
are sold off the plan and they're sold
through beautiful brochures and developers
put a lot of work intopreparing amazing renders
and amazing collateral.
As part of that, theyproduce these amazing renders
of wine bars and cafesand stuff like that,
but what they're focusing on is selling
(07:15):
the predominant part of the building,
which is everything above ground floor,
and they often forget aboutthe small sort of 100,
150 square metre space at ground floor,
but that space does so much to contribute
to the community andcan be such a positive,
but also if you get it wrong,
negative part of the development.
(07:36):
We're also aware that that space,
if you don't own one of our buildings
or own one of our apartmentsor know someone that does,
it might be the only thingthat you interact with.
So it might be the only time
that we have an opportunityto present a positive light
from a brand perspective.
So yeah, for us it's asuper important space
(07:57):
and we put a lot of effortinto our ground plan.
- What do you think they'reincreasingly looking for
lately in response to,
there's obviously a lot of trends
impacting the housingmarket at the moment.
The pandemic is a bit ofhistory, but it's still,
I think, impacting our homes
and what people are looking for.
There's also the cost of livingcrisis, rising inflation,
(08:19):
energy costs and housingaffordability in that.
I know there's a lot in there,
but are there somecommon themes and threads
that people are lookingfor more so these days?
- I think you touched ona lot of it just then,
but tackling some of it.
An attainable house for sure,like a good quality home.
We're not a luxury developer by any means.
(08:40):
We never want to be a luxury developer.
We certainly have seenoff the back of COVID
a real desire to have spaceand even your own space.
A number of people that have been looking
at our apartments mostrecently potentially
have been renting a share house
or with friends and they're looking to buy
(09:01):
an apartment now to havetheir own sense of space,
and if they owned a place andthey were in an apartment,
they're certainly nowlooking for more space,
in particular spaces thatthey can use during the day.
Obviously a study is a bigone for working from home,
but a sense of communitywe're seeing, absolutely
and not a forced community,
but a casual community, notorganised events necessarily,
(09:26):
but knowing that you have a neighbour
and you can run into them in the hallway,
and just that idea of casual community
I think is a really compelling thing
at the moment after we'veall spent a lot of time
away from each other.
- Here's a big topic.
How do you think the changing face
of the Great Australian Dream
(09:47):
and the housing affordability challenge
is influencing the futureof Australian housing
living and, or the residential market?
- When we started, westarted in response to that,
trying to provideattainable homes for people
and good quality attainable homes, but
we were looking at it from anowner occupied perspective.
Then over the courseof the last five years,
(10:09):
project scale has typically got smaller,
focused on owner occupiers,but most recently,
there is a new type ofdevelopment built to rent,
which has increased the scale
and it's focused onrenters like those projects
were in a sense, but in this case,
I feel like it's a much better outcome,
a much more qualityoutcome because the owners
(10:34):
are all so a single entityfocused on delivering
a great outcome for renters, they have to.
- In some ways, I feellike it's been a challenge
and it's been a lot forpeople to get their heads
around this evolving idea of the house
with the picket fenceand the home ownership,
but in some ways, asthe challenge evolves,
(10:55):
it has opened up new housing options,
new housing alternatives
and new housing models and innovations,
particularly in Australia that have meant
that there's more choice out there
for how people want to live,where they want to live.
And I think in some waysthat's quite exciting.
- Oh, I completely agree.
I can imagine a worldnow off the back of COVID
(11:19):
and the advances in technology,
both from working from home,
but also autonomous vehicles
and built to rent and all thethings that have going on.
In the not too distant future,
I can see people having a property
in the city that theydon't own, but they rent
as well as a property
that might be more affordable regionally
(11:40):
and spending time working
from that regional property
because that's so muchmore able to be done now,
commuting when they need to commute
through an autonomous vehicle.
Again, I don't feellike it's that far away,
and then staying in Melbourneat their rental property.
Yeah, I think it's exciting in terms
(12:00):
of the advancements and again,
the challenges that havecreated opportunities
through COVID but also theadvancements in technology.
- And that was aboutchanging from the demand
for a home to being ableto convince the market
that you can get all of that closer
in an apartment if the apartmentis high enough quality.
(12:23):
- Yeah, definitely, I think housing
is becoming really expensive to build
and property, buying landis becoming really expensive
to build, so the response tothat is higher density housing,
and as that becomes more accepted
(12:44):
and a more mature market,hopefully the market
will push us to deliverreally great quality
higher density housing,
and then we need tofocus on all the spaces
outside of the housing.
One of my favourite places,
and maybe this is becauseI've been a tourist
when I've been there, but I love Paris
because it has really quite great.
(13:05):
If you live in the middle of Paris,
you live probably in an apartment
and it's a very consistentfive level height.
There's not a lot of high rise.
It's just a very consistentfive level height,
but there is a lot of amenity people use.
There's not so much internal amenity
within apartments
except there's those largeprivate courtyard areas,
but I think that idea ofthat shared civic amenity
(13:31):
is such an important attributeof high density living.
So one, I guess that theidea of apartment living,
I think that's certainly matured
and people are becoming more comfortable
with the idea of living in apartments,
but the idea of owning your own home
and that might be an apartment,
certainly still has its challenges.
And I think the idea of creatingbetter rental properties
(13:54):
that have security of tenure
and are like owning your own home,
you can do things with them that you would
if you owned the propertyand giving people
the flexibility and I guess the freedom
around that is the future of, I guess,
residential living, particularlyin the cities, I feel.
(14:16):
- Where do you thinksustainability fits in these days?
- It's not what we lead with.
It's a pillar of our projects,but that doesn't mean
that it's not super important.
It's just not all that we are.
I think there's particularbrands outside of development,
but also in development thathave that as their lead.
(14:40):
And I think if you look at what we do
from a sustainability perspective,
the type of work thatwe're doing is on parallel
with their work
from a sustainabilitycredentials perspective,
but it's not what we lead with.
So we have a saying or an approach
(15:01):
to sustainability assustainability is standard.
It should be standard in all projects
and it should be a really important part,
but it shouldn't be,it's not an amazing thing
to have a sustainable building,it just should be done.
And we try and focus onthe big moves in buildings,
not the add-ons and not the fancy things,
(15:22):
but getting the buildingright from the outset.
- In some ways, I'd almost argue
that that is not a revolutionary,
but a unique and progressiveway to look at sustainability,
where it should be a fundamental,it should be a baseline.
It shouldn't be somethingthat separates or is unique.
(15:46):
- Oh, absolutely, I feel liketo what I was talking about
before about how amazing developers
are packaging up projects these days.
One of the parts of thatin particular markets
is an arms race on sustainability.
And I think it's all about star ratings
and just a checklist of things
that you can put in yourbrochure that you're doing.
(16:09):
But yeah, often it's the stuff
that is not easily described in a brochure
that's the big moves in aproject that's just as important.
Part of the problem ofbuilt to sell development,
but also what can lead to great change
and be a real strength isthat it's purchase or lead.
(16:31):
It's certainly developed as a driven
by the market in selling apartments,
and there's definitelya growing consciousness
or conscience around sustainability.
So I think it's in a pretty good spot.
I'd like to see, and it'scertainly a policy of ours,
no gas in residential buildings.
(16:54):
It's not required and it'sone of the very big moves
that you can do to improvethe sustainability credentials
of your projects, andit's certainly something
that's absolutely a policy of ours.
And then beyond that, I think cars,
this obsession with cars.
(17:16):
All of our projects are in, literally,
you could walk to the city of the project
that you and I are doingtogether, mate, in Collingwood.
People love the convenience of the car,
but my bet is at Otter Street,
when people purchasethere, most of the week
they're not using their car.
So how do you create an opportunity
(17:40):
for them to feel comfortablenot to have a car
when they're still on the weekend,
might want access to a car?
So I'd love to see more developments
with share cars within the developments
that allow people to haveaccess to an electric vehicle,
but not necessarily own a car themselves
when it's just sitting in acar park five days a week.
(18:03):
I think one of the interesting challenges,
conversations around thecar is we know cities
and planners want all basement parking
and they don't want anyparking above ground,
but we're seeing some developers push back
on that with providingflexible mobility hubs
above ground that can beconverted in a few years
(18:28):
based on actual user demand, more possible
in a built to rent projectwhere you can monitor use
and if they're not gettingused, you can tweak the size
of your car park, hardto do in a basement.
- Yeah, I think that's really interesting.
A couple of our projects,we've been forward-looking
and working with our design team
(18:50):
around what those spacesmight be in the future,
because buildings are here for a long time
and I don't think it's that faraway between autonomous cars
and less people owning cars.
And then you've got all these basements
that need to have alternate uses.
(19:10):
So how do you createsomething for those spaces,
or can you think about thatnow so that they can be used
in a different way in 20 years?
- Is there someone or adeveloper or a designer
or a project that you are notinvolved in that you think
is doing that really well
and is pushing the residential market,
(19:32):
the future of our homesin the right direction?
- Completely, absolutely,I'm a huge supporter
and fan of other developers' work
to the point where westarted, we actually started
this initiative calledBuilding Better Cities,
and it was born out anumber of friends of mine
(19:56):
are architects, justbecause I spend all day
at work and therefore myfriends are the people
that I hang out with.
- We're also great people, but.
- Yeah, of course.
- No.
- Of course, so I go alongto these architectural awards
or architecture evenings, and what I saw
was such a collegial, collaborative,
(20:17):
supportive bunch of peoplethat would get excited
about each other's projectsand provide input and support.
And I was like, "Why doesn't that exist
in the development industry on a scale
it does in the architecture world?"
(20:38):
And I came to theconclusion that developers,
we're all bloody competitive,super competitive
in what we do, and youwant the commercial edge
in everything that you're doing
because it's very competitive.
You've got to buy sites andyou've got to find the edge.
So we're pretty closed and we don't share,
but I've been followinga number of developers
(20:59):
both in Melbourne, inAustralia, but also overseas.
That inspired me and Ireached out to a number
of these developers outside of Australia
because I thought, well, they'renot competing against us,
so therefore everyone's probablymore comfortable to share.
Also, share some of thechallenges that they had,
be open and honest aboutthe challenges they had,
but also share projectsand what's worked well.
(21:22):
And to my surprise, anumber of the developers
that I'd followed and loved for some time,
they were really keen to bea part of this initiative.
So what we do is we catchup once a month or so
and we share with each other.
It's like a counselling session almost,
it feels at times, where we talk about.
- A developers shed.
- Yeah, it's really good.
We talk about the projectsthat we've got on,
(21:43):
some of the challenges,what's worked well,
but we also inspire eachother and some of the work.
So the people that area part or the groups
that are a part of that.
There's a group out of Brooklyn
that is pretty similar in nature
in terms of they're verylocalised to us called Alloy.
There's a really amazingcreative developer
(22:05):
out of BC in Canada called Arise.
And in the UK there's another developer
called Parabola thatis part of that group.
But Melbourne, probably maybe
because I know the market so well,
but also I think Melbourne has bred
a really great cohort of developers.
(22:27):
We're working with NeoMetro, we've just finished
a project with Neometro, and yeah,
they inspired me when Ifirst started our business,
and I think they'restill doing great work.
I think Nightingale do amazing work
and really push all of usto improve on many levels.
(22:47):
Developers, there sucha negative connotation
about developers.
Even like I was surfing this morning
out at Tullamarine atthe surf park out there,
and someone asked me what I did,
and I always feel a bit oddsaying I'm a property developer.
The conversation doesn'tusually go past that point,
(23:09):
or very far at least often.
And the perception is that we all wear
blue pin striped suits andlooking at Excel spreadsheets
with dollar signs on them.
But for us, we try andthink about it differently
and change the perception of developers.
We really feel that what we do is creative
and we call it creative development,
(23:31):
and we feel like we're partof the creative process
rather than a directorof it or just instructing
our collaborators that we work with.
So I guess, yeah, we'recertainly trying to change
the perception of developers.
- It's been a couple of months
since I recorded this chat with Mike,
(23:53):
and these challenges arecertainly still front and centre
of the property debate.
The continued global complexities
and cost of livingchallenges do seem destined
to stick around, for now at least,
but the opportunities arealso just as relevant.
With so many housingalternatives to consider,
housing alternatives that do a better job
of sustainability, community connection,
(24:15):
providing green spaces andbetter living outcomes,
the future looks bright.
In a discerning marketwhen costs are tight,
quality design andscrutiny over what people
are buying and renting hasnever been more important.
Delivering quality housingwith humanity will provide
real choices and confidenceto the community,
a housing future thatdesigns better cities
(24:35):
and enriches lives.
Our next chat in thisHousing Future series
looks to that larger city scale
and some of those real housingchoices in a bit more detail.
So look out for that one coming soon.
Thanks to Mike for histime, his investment
into providing qualityhousing and his enthusiasm
in this topic, and thanksto you, our listeners.
(24:57):
We know you're as passionateabout the role design plays
in creating a beautiful,resilient and inclusive future
as we are. I'm Jeremy Schluter.
You've been listening to anepisode of Hassell Talks.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent.
(gentle music)
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