While technology rapidly advances — people, by contrast, remain constant.
Creatures of habit, we need others to survive. We are the sum of our skin, our organs and body parts. Our minds distinguish us, and our intelligence is key to survival but it's our ability to work together that tells the true story of our potential.
The team behind the Herston Biofabrication Institute in Brisbane, Australia knew this, and deliberately removed the physical and mental limits in their way. Given the right space, resources and design they've seen a patient able to talk for the first time in 30 years; a specialist design-print-test-iterate a medical solution in days rather than months — and problems solved “beautifully [and] organically” in minutes.
In this episode of Hassell Talks, Mathilde Desselle General Manager of the Herston Biofabrication Institute, tells Carolyn Solley of how the transparency and malleability of the building’s interior design has smoothed interactions and increased healing and recovery enabling both patients and the Institute’s multi-disciplinary workforce to thrive.
Hassell acknowledges the Jagera and Turrbal people as the original custodians, designers, and placemakers of the land we recorded this episode on. We pay our respect to the traditional owners, their elders and knowledge holders past, present, and emerging. Their knowledge has and will ensure the continuation of cultures and traditional practises.
- This episode was produced by Prue Vincent and Michelle Bailey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
- From internationaldesign practise Hassell,
you're listening to Hassell Talks.
Behind the doors of a previously
unloved 1970s Brutalistbuilding in Brisbane,
there are now teams of researchers,
surgeons, engineers, industrial designers
and other very clever peopleworking on groundbreaking,
life-changing biofabricationand medical research.
(00:24):
The Herston Biofabrication Institute
opened its doors to Queenslandand Australia in 2021.
Already it has changedthe lives of many people,
enabled rapid iteration,testing, application,
and problem-solving,
and it's a project I'm sodelighted to have worked on,
with a brief that asked designers
to create a place that enabled ideas,
collaboration and agility to respond.
(00:46):
I'm Carolyn Solley.
I'm an interior designer at Hassell
and I'm joined today
by the wonderful Mathilde Desselle.
Mathilde is the generalmanager at Herston Biofab.
Her specialty is 3D healthtechnologies, digital health,
and design innovation for healthcare.
She was a crucial stakeholder
and collaborator in the successful
outcome of the Institute.
(01:06):
Hello Mathilde, so greatto talk to you today.
- Hey Carolyn, nice tospeak to you as well.
I'm excited.
- Yeah, well, thank you very much.
I'd like to start our conversation
by acknowledging and respecting
the Yuggera and Turball people
as the original custodians, designers,
and placemakers of the land upon
which your HerstonBiofabrication is situated.
And of course, from wherewe're speaking today.
(01:27):
We pay our respect tothe traditional owners,
their elders and knowledge-holders,
past, present and emerging.
Their knowledge has and will ensure
the continuation of culturesand traditional practises.
So, Mathilde, you've been in the facility
for about a year now
and you know that I love visiting
to sort of see all of theamazing work that you do.
I was wondering if youwouldn't mind sharing
(01:47):
the story that you toldme about a gentleman
with no vocal cords,
and how you helped themthrough the Institute.
- Yes, so that's a fairly recent case,
where we were contactedby a physiotherapist
and she told us about that gentleman
(02:09):
who kept being admitted
in our respiratory medicine department
at the hospital fairly regularly.
And the challenge for this individual
is that they have a little stoma,
so it's like a little hole in the neck.
(02:29):
The gentleman is usingthat, the hole, to breathe,
and the gentleman also has no vocal cord
and fairly irregular anatomicalcontours on the neck.
And the challenge thatwas presenting itself
is that in the absence of vocal cords
(02:49):
and with the stoma,
can't cough through their mouths.
So, you know how allthe dust we inhale comes
and sit on our lungs, probably
a million times in the day,
we do cough but they can't.
So, they kept developingthose chest infections
that kept coming back, andevery three, four months,
the person was admitted in hospital
(03:09):
and had to stay there for a few weeks
until the problem went away.
We were contacted tosee if we could design
a little adapter for the gentleman's stoma
to help him cough.
So, they're little devices
that exist when you havedifficulties to cough,
like a cough assist,
if you like, a positiverespiratory pressure device,
(03:30):
but that fit in your mouth.
He can't cough through his mouth.
So, for him, that was a bit useless.
So, I just went downto respiratory medicine
to meet the patient.
I took a 3D scan of the neck
and brought that scanback to our lab at HBI.
Our engineers thendeveloped a little adapter,
(03:51):
pretty basic, pretty simple,
little 3D-printed adapter
for the cough-assist device.
And after the necessary quality assurance
and regulatory steps,
we were able to hand thedevice over to the patient.
So, that was a few months ago now.
And since that's happened,
the patient's been able to cough
(04:13):
and that means they haven't had
a single hospital admission forrespiratory infection since.
And their quality of lifehas so dramatically improved,
that by getting rid of the infection,
he was able to get anelectronic larynx installed.
So, the patient is talkingthe first time in 30 years.
(04:33):
- That's amazing.
That's such an interesting story.
How long did that process take?
Was it a few months, was it?
- Actually only was amatter of a couple of weeks.
The person was scanned whenthey were hospitalised,
and from basically that afternoon,
I was able to reconstructthe 3D model of the patient.
(04:54):
Then we took a day ortwo to design something,
3D print it in a materialthat wasn't going
to react with the skin.
And then on another visit,
we were able to testthe safety of the device
with a few therapist and with the doctor,
and we made some tiny adjustments.
That's the beauty of 3D printing.
(05:16):
It supports iteration so beautifully.
So, when we need little design changes,
it's fairly easy to thenmake another device,
if you like.
And the patient went homeand at their next visit
to meet their doctor and physiotherapist,
we were able to hand him the final device.
- I guess, going back a step,
what was your workplacebefore you had the Institute
(05:38):
in the last sort of year or so?
- I come from the academic world,
so I was working in a university.
So, that's been, I guess,
the biggest change for me is to be a role
as a biomedical engineer, as a designer,
to be physically on bedon the hospital campus.
So, I guess the difference very much
(06:01):
was that tyranny of distance.
When you're even in the same city
but you need to starthaving to hop on a bus
or in a car or on yourelectric scooter to go places,
it makes things a little harder
and perhaps a little less agile
than when we are able to beall physically co-located
(06:25):
and we are on the same floor
or we are a couple of corridors away.
- Was that one of the key deciding factors
of why you situated theBiofabrication Institute
on-campus at the Royal Brisbane Hospital?
- Absolutely was thatintention to very much
co-locate expertise
and support those smoothinteractions between engineers,
(06:50):
designers, clinicians,industry representatives,
academics, and most importantly, patients.
- That's great.
What other sort of activities
go on behind the doors ofHBI since you've opened?
- Oh, it's so much.
What's interesting about
(07:10):
what we do in the Instituteis that we do support,
I guess, three big pillars of activity.
There is examples likethe one we just discussed,
that really touch on utilising
the 3D technologies to havea direct clinical impact.
(07:30):
So, that is directlyaffecting the delivery of care
in the hospital.
We talked about exampleof a little custom device,
what we do hundreds of,
it's what's called an anatomical model
for the purpose of surgical planning.
So, if Carolyn, you needto have a surgery done
(07:50):
and it's going to be quite complex,
what we do is that we willtake your medical images,
obtained with the CT scan or the main,
and we will use that tovery much recreate 3D model
of your anatomy,
and we likely are going to 3D print that
and it's going to beused to plan your surgery
(08:12):
so it goes as smoothly as possible.
So, it's able to be discussedbetween the engineer
and the clinician.
The clinician is able to discuss the model
with her colleagues,
so she might evaluate where she might cut
or where she might reconstruct.
She might bend the platebeforehand just to maximise
(08:33):
the time that is spent in surgery.
The third pillar is very much education
and how we can create thosenew pathways for engineers,
for designers, and for clinicians,
that very much embrace theintegration of 3D technologies.
- Yeah.
One of the interesting thingsI really enjoy when I come
(08:56):
and visit you is seeing the clinicians
there in their scrubs, seeingthe orthopaedic surgeons
come from surgery,
right into do some of that rapid testing
and collaboration with yourdesigners and engineers.
Is that sort of the experience of a day
in the life of the Institute?
- Absolutely.
All these people are walking in and out,
(09:18):
and the art is making the spaceso that it's plastic enough,
work for everyone.
Which, how was it for you?
Because I guess you had to incorporate
what everyone's priorities were,
and we were doing co-design for the space,
and you had researchers,you had engineers,
you had surgeons.
(09:39):
How was it for you to tryand make everyone happy?
- Well, I think that was,
yeah, that's such an interesting part
of the brief is that we'reactually designing for people
and connection and notnecessarily machines
and 3D printers.
We're actually designing howyou want to work in the future.
So, that was a really greatdiscussion that we had,
(09:59):
I think early on,
about the different types of people
and how they might usethe workplace differently.
So, we're very much kindof cognizant of creating
a lot of transparency thatpeople like the clinicians
and the surgeons wouldfeel really super-welcome
in the space and be able tocome and go as they please,
but also creating space thatwas suitable for research
(10:20):
and detailed and focused work as well.
So, I think that played a real factor
in understandingeveryone's kind of desires
to collaborate and how designcould support collaboration.
- I think it's quite interesting.
Now, we talked aboutco-location of expertise
and I guess the benefits it can have.
(10:43):
During the pandemic,
that was massive becausewe were developing
medical devices tosupport COVID-19 responses
and so it was all a bit hectic
and we had to move really, really fast,
and that ability to do very rapid
(11:05):
ID development, rapid prototyping
and rapid testing andevaluation of those IDs onsite,
I think helped us respondreally, really quickly
and to really action whatiterative design means.
- Mm-hmm.
(11:30):
- It's a lot of history in the building.
There used to be the RoyalBrisbane and Women's Hospital
was in this building.
It was the hospital and thenit's been used over the past,
I think, 50 years foradministrative purposes
and then clinical again.
We see a lot of surgeons say,
(11:50):
"Oh, I did my internshiphere that many decades ago,"
and now it's undergoing anew transformation with HBI
but also with considerations
for other floors.
How did you actually honour
and incorporate thehistory of the building
(12:11):
in what you did for HBI?
I know we did terrazzotouches, for example.
- Yeah, look, it's really interesting
because it was designed way back in 1977
and it's certainly a veryarchitectural building
but Brutalist in its nature.
We understood from theresearch that it used
to be also a specialist researchand laboratory facility.
So, it's had a really varied past
(12:32):
and that's what we thoughtwas really interesting,
that we created thisopportunity to re-life
an otherwise kind oftired and sad building,
to almost come full circle tobecoming a laboratory again.
So, we certainly used those constraints,
I guess, in the designchallenges to really
harness something thatwas completely different
(12:54):
and completely unexpected because
we want your consumers
and your partners and philanthropists
to do exactly what you've described,
to walk in and say,
"Wow, I didn't expect this to be there."
So, the Institute is so many things
to different stakeholders.
I mean, you've just mentioned an example
of a life-changing kindof outcome from the work
(13:16):
that you do, but it's also a place
for public transparency and education
and innovation and healing.
So, it's just a really interesting place
that we've really enjoyed working on
and actually hoping that it's future-proof
that it's flexible for all of the advances
in technology that we cannever kind of predict.
But hopefully, we builta facility with you
(13:38):
that responds and changes over time.
- Yes, patients do love it too.
- We wanted to createa space that patients
and consumers felt really comfortable in.
I think some of the issuesthat you've described
could potentially be quite traumatic
for different people, and certainly,
we wanted to create aspace that made people
(13:59):
feel really welcome.
So, I think intentionallyour design is based
around human kind of scale materials.
You referenced the terrazzo that was
from the original Brutalist building
from the '70s and wewanted to kind of reference
that in the palette so that everything
feels quite natural, timeless,
and not necessarilyover-clinical or scary,
(14:24):
I guess, to people that arecoming from the general public.
- I think the transparencythroughout does play
a big role as well because we have
a portion of the Institute
that is accessible to the public.
You know when you go to posh restaurants
and you can see whathappens in the kitchen?
People have work.
So, we've got someelements of that very much
(14:47):
happening where when consumers, visitors,
do come to the Institute,
they can have a walk around.
They can approach a 3Dlaboratory without getting in,
but they can still get a glimpse
of what activities are happening in there.
Fittingly put, recently I hadone consumer representatives
(15:11):
and I just found him in a staff kitchen
making himself a cup of tea.
I was delighted that they felt comfortable
enough to walk through that open door
and walk in the kitchen,
make themselves a cup of tea, sit down
and start engaging with a medical student
who happens to be walking through
(15:33):
at the same time and is starting
to share what they're working on.
- Yeah, that's fantastic.
Can you describe a bitabout the inclusive nature
and how the design supports that?
- Typically, hospital waiting rooms
are not very welcoming spaces.
They're a bit scary.
(15:53):
It's a bit noisy.
Some mismatched chairs.
You said earlier,
"How about how we try to designa space that was welcoming."
So, we have very muchtried to create a space
that is inclusive, that is free-flowing.
We've designed a couple ofvery beautiful consult rooms,
(16:15):
which we have started to use already,
to consent patientsand very much tried to,
I guess, design something that had a flow
that would warranty privacy, comfort,
and the preservation ofdignity for our patient.
(16:36):
So, it's really heartwarmingwhen we see patients
who can walk in andfeel comfortable enough
to they can have a seat,
can have a cup of tea,
we can then come andhave that conversation.
It takes bravery on theirpart to come on board
(16:58):
with what we do.
And consumers so far havebeen absolutely wonderful.
But imagine a few decades ago
if you had walked inand you would've said,
"Oh, you going to receivea 3D-printed device."
You might have been like, "Sorry, what?"
- Yeah, exactly.
And that's what's sobuoyant about it is just,
it's unimaginable technologythat you're producing.
(17:19):
It's really, really fantastic.
But I do love that story.
I think the idea that someone feels
so comfortable that theycan make themselves a tea,
a cup of tea, is justsuch a fantastic story
- And it leads onto other opportunities.
So, that particular consumer is involved
with a larger group, whichis a peer support group
(17:41):
for burn survivors.
And so they have get-together where people
can come and shareexperiences and stories.
So, leading on from that,
they asked if could they meet here?
- Wow.
- And so we said,
"Yes, you can absolutely meet here."
(18:03):
So, in a few weeks' time,just in a couple of weeks,
we have that group of the peersupport for burn survivors,
who's going to come andspend an afternoon here,
and they're bringing a speaker
who's the first personto receive a particular
type of medical device that's
(18:25):
to heal the skin following severe burns.
Again, incredibly brave individuals.
We're going to have these people coming,
they bring their own speaker.
It's been a come andshare their experience,
and then some people might like to come
and take a look at the lab
and look at what our latest advances
(18:46):
are using 3D-printingtechnologies for burns care.
So, I'm looking forward to it.
- Yeah, that sounds great.
What a fantasticopportunity for the facility
to be utilised in that way.
Actually, you mentionedthe burns support group
and understand you're doing more than
just 3D printing within the facility.
(19:08):
You're also working on differentapps and VR technology.
Is that the case?
- Yeah, so we've alsobeen using the space,
so you designed for us aroom that we use extensively.
It's called the Innovation Hub,
which is a very flexible space
that's got beautiful big screens for AV
(19:29):
and microphones and cameras,
and a way to configureseating so we can have it
very formal or very casual.
So, we're very, I guess,flexible, plastic space,
and we've been running alot of co-design sessions
in that room with burn survivors
and with burns conditions
(19:50):
as well to be able to start integrating
virtual reality technologies,integrating care.
So, virtual reality for healthcare,
it's actively exploding,
but the hardware and software combinations
that existed there are notalways particularly suitable
(20:13):
to use in the specificcontext of burns care
and of public health as well.
- Have you noticed anychanges in your colleagues
since the Institute's been open?
- Yes.
I think people are being perhaps
even more trans- andmulti-disciplinary than ever before.
(20:36):
Last Friday, I was processinga 3D scan of a patient.
I don't get to do it very much anymore,
but once in a while,
I like to take the scanand process it myself
and I make a point ofnot doing it at my desk,
I'll go in the lab to do it.
(20:57):
So, I take the scans, seen the patient,
I've scanned them, and I went to the lab
and I plug in one of the bighigh-performance computers
and I'm starting to process my scan.
I'm not saying anything to anyone.
Next second, I've got one of our designers
who's walking past andstarting to point things
(21:18):
on the screen.
Be like, "Oh, what is this here?
"And is this an artefact there?"
And da-di-da.
The next minute,
I've got one of our biomedical engineers
who I can just call out and say,
"Hey, I think, can you check,
"but can you check thisparticular feature there?
"It looks a little weird.
(21:39):
"What do you think?"
So, he's able to do that.
And three minutes later,one of our surgeons,
he's going to walk in,and I'm able to say,
"Ah, perfect.
"You are here.
"Come and have a look atthis because the three of us
"have been wondering aboutthis particular feature here
"and I'm not sure what to do about it.
(22:02):
"What do you think?"
And so that surgeon is ableto come and have a look.
So, the problem was solvedthrough that beautiful,
organic, free-flowing,multidisciplinary collaboration
that we had between engineers, designers,
(22:24):
and that surgeon who is looking after
that particular patient.
So, we were able tosolve it in four minutes
by being organically able to solve that
by walking past each other,
which we would not havebeen able to do previously
before we had thatopportunity for co-location.
(22:46):
Carolyn, if I could aska last question to you.
If you had to do this again
or if another hospital
in Asia-Pacific were looking at setting up
their own version of what we have here,
(23:07):
what would be your advice to them,
if you had to do it different again now?
Is there something youwould do differently?
- Oh, I think I woulddefinitely do a lot of things.
Well, I think I would do things the same,
in that making sure thatwe design for people,
I think, first and foremost.
So, really understandingthe brief of the people.
Suggesting that it isa co-located facility
(23:30):
because all of youranecdotes kind of respond
to how important co-locationis with other clinical areas.
I also would think that relifing
or repurposing a building,
particularly space thatmight be underutilised.
So, sort of giving it newlife through a facility
(23:51):
like HBI would be really beneficial
for those differentfacilities in Asia-Pacific.
So, I don't necessarily think we would do
anything differently.
I think we would just make sure
that we're always designing for people.
Thank you so much,Mathilde, for your time.
It was really incredible
and I just love all thosevariety of anecdotes
(24:13):
were just awesome.
- That was really fun.
I haven't done a podcast ina while, so that was fun.
- I'm Carolyn Solley.
You've been listening to anepisode of Hassell Talks.
Please subscribe and leaveus a review where you can.
We'd love for you to share your thoughts
and feedback with us onthe insights we gather
from across our network of designers,
researchers, clients, andcollaborators like Mathilde.
Don't forget, you canfind out about our work
(24:35):
and insights at hassellstudio.com.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent
and Michelle Bailey.
- From internationaldesign practise Hassell,
you're listening to Hassell Talks.
Behind the doors of a previously
unloved 1970s Brutalistbuilding in Brisbane,
there are now teams of researchers,
surgeons, engineers, industrial designers
and other very clever peopleworking on groundbreaking,
life-changing biofabricationand medical research.
(00:24):
The Herston Biofabrication Institute
opened its doors to Queenslandand Australia in 2021.
Already it has changedthe lives of many people,
enabled rapid iteration,testing, application,
and problem-solving,
and it's a project I'm sodelighted to have worked on,
with a brief that asked designers
to create a place that enabled ideas,
collaboration and agility to respond.
(00:46):
I'm Carolyn Solley.
I'm an interior designer at Hassell
and I'm joined today
by the wonderful Mathilde Desselle.
Mathilde is the generalmanager at Herston Biofab.
Her specialty is 3D healthtechnologies, digital health,
and design innovation for healthcare.
She was a crucial stakeholder
and collaborator in the successful
outcome of the Institute.
(01:06):
Hello Mathilde, so greatto talk to you today.
- Hey Carolyn, nice tospeak to you as well.
I'm excited.
- Yeah, well, thank you very much.
I'd like to start our conversation
by acknowledging and respecting
the Yuggera and Turball people
as the original custodians, designers,
and placemakers of the land upon
which your HerstonBiofabrication is situated.
And of course, from wherewe're speaking today.
(01:27):
We pay our respect tothe traditional owners,
their elders and knowledge-holders,
past, present and emerging.
Their knowledge has and will ensure
the continuation of culturesand traditional practises.
So, Mathilde, you've been in the facility
for about a year now
and you know that I love visiting
to sort of see all of theamazing work that you do.
I was wondering if youwouldn't mind sharing
(01:47):
the story that you toldme about a gentleman
with no vocal cords,
and how you helped themthrough the Institute.
- Yes, so that's a fairly recent case,
where we were contactedby a physiotherapist
and she told us about that gentleman
(02:09):
who kept being admitted
in our respiratory medicine department
at the hospital fairly regularly.
And the challenge for this individual
is that they have a little stoma,
so it's like a little hole in the neck.
(02:29):
The gentleman is usingthat, the hole, to breathe,
and the gentleman also has no vocal cord
and fairly irregular anatomicalcontours on the neck.
And the challenge thatwas presenting itself
is that in the absence of vocal cords
(02:49):
and with the stoma,
can't cough through their mouths.
So, you know how allthe dust we inhale comes
and sit on our lungs, probably
a million times in the day,
we do cough but they can't.
So, they kept developingthose chest infections
that kept coming back, andevery three, four months,
the person was admitted in hospital
(03:09):
and had to stay there for a few weeks
until the problem went away.
We were contacted tosee if we could design
a little adapter for the gentleman's stoma
to help him cough.
So, they're little devices
that exist when you havedifficulties to cough,
like a cough assist,
if you like, a positiverespiratory pressure device,
(03:30):
but that fit in your mouth.
He can't cough through his mouth.
So, for him, that was a bit useless.
So, I just went downto respiratory medicine
to meet the patient.
I took a 3D scan of the neck
and brought that scanback to our lab at HBI.
Our engineers thendeveloped a little adapter,
(03:51):
pretty basic, pretty simple,
little 3D-printed adapter
for the cough-assist device.
And after the necessary quality assurance
and regulatory steps,
we were able to hand thedevice over to the patient.
So, that was a few months ago now.
And since that's happened,
the patient's been able to cough
(04:13):
and that means they haven't had
a single hospital admission forrespiratory infection since.
And their quality of lifehas so dramatically improved,
that by getting rid of the infection,
he was able to get anelectronic larynx installed.
So, the patient is talkingthe first time in 30 years.
(04:33):
- That's amazing.
That's such an interesting story.
How long did that process take?
Was it a few months, was it?
- Actually only was amatter of a couple of weeks.
The person was scanned whenthey were hospitalised,
and from basically that afternoon,
I was able to reconstructthe 3D model of the patient.
(04:54):
Then we took a day ortwo to design something,
3D print it in a materialthat wasn't going
to react with the skin.
And then on another visit,
we were able to testthe safety of the device
with a few therapist and with the doctor,
and we made some tiny adjustments.
That's the beauty of 3D printing.
(05:16):
It supports iteration so beautifully.
So, when we need little design changes,
it's fairly easy to thenmake another device,
if you like.
And the patient went homeand at their next visit
to meet their doctor and physiotherapist,
we were able to hand him the final device.
- I guess, going back a step,
what was your workplacebefore you had the Institute
(05:38):
in the last sort of year or so?
- I come from the academic world,
so I was working in a university.
So, that's been, I guess,
the biggest change for me is to be a role
as a biomedical engineer, as a designer,
to be physically on bedon the hospital campus.
So, I guess the difference very much
(06:01):
was that tyranny of distance.
When you're even in the same city
but you need to starthaving to hop on a bus
or in a car or on yourelectric scooter to go places,
it makes things a little harder
and perhaps a little less agile
than when we are able to beall physically co-located
(06:25):
and we are on the same floor
or we are a couple of corridors away.
- Was that one of the key deciding factors
of why you situated theBiofabrication Institute
on-campus at the Royal Brisbane Hospital?
- Absolutely was thatintention to very much
co-locate expertise
and support those smoothinteractions between engineers,
(06:50):
designers, clinicians,industry representatives,
academics, and most importantly, patients.
- That's great.
What other sort of activities
go on behind the doors ofHBI since you've opened?
- Oh, it's so much.
What's interesting about
(07:10):
what we do in the Instituteis that we do support,
I guess, three big pillars of activity.
There is examples likethe one we just discussed,
that really touch on utilising
the 3D technologies to havea direct clinical impact.
(07:30):
So, that is directlyaffecting the delivery of care
in the hospital.
We talked about exampleof a little custom device,
what we do hundreds of,
it's what's called an anatomical model
for the purpose of surgical planning.
So, if Carolyn, you needto have a surgery done
(07:50):
and it's going to be quite complex,
what we do is that we willtake your medical images,
obtained with the CT scan or the main,
and we will use that tovery much recreate 3D model
of your anatomy,
and we likely are going to 3D print that
and it's going to beused to plan your surgery
(08:12):
so it goes as smoothly as possible.
So, it's able to be discussedbetween the engineer
and the clinician.
The clinician is able to discuss the model
with her colleagues,
so she might evaluate where she might cut
or where she might reconstruct.
She might bend the platebeforehand just to maximise
(08:33):
the time that is spent in surgery.
The third pillar is very much education
and how we can create thosenew pathways for engineers,
for designers, and for clinicians,
that very much embrace theintegration of 3D technologies.
- Yeah.
One of the interesting thingsI really enjoy when I come
(08:56):
and visit you is seeing the clinicians
there in their scrubs, seeingthe orthopaedic surgeons
come from surgery,
right into do some of that rapid testing
and collaboration with yourdesigners and engineers.
Is that sort of the experience of a day
in the life of the Institute?
- Absolutely.
All these people are walking in and out,
(09:18):
and the art is making the spaceso that it's plastic enough,
work for everyone.
Which, how was it for you?
Because I guess you had to incorporate
what everyone's priorities were,
and we were doing co-design for the space,
and you had researchers,you had engineers,
you had surgeons.
(09:39):
How was it for you to tryand make everyone happy?
- Well, I think that was,
yeah, that's such an interesting part
of the brief is that we'reactually designing for people
and connection and notnecessarily machines
and 3D printers.
We're actually designing howyou want to work in the future.
So, that was a really greatdiscussion that we had,
(09:59):
I think early on,
about the different types of people
and how they might usethe workplace differently.
So, we're very much kindof cognizant of creating
a lot of transparency thatpeople like the clinicians
and the surgeons wouldfeel really super-welcome
in the space and be able tocome and go as they please,
but also creating space thatwas suitable for research
(10:20):
and detailed and focused work as well.
So, I think that played a real factor
in understandingeveryone's kind of desires
to collaborate and how designcould support collaboration.
- I think it's quite interesting.
Now, we talked aboutco-location of expertise
and I guess the benefits it can have.
(10:43):
During the pandemic,
that was massive becausewe were developing
medical devices tosupport COVID-19 responses
and so it was all a bit hectic
and we had to move really, really fast,
and that ability to do very rapid
(11:05):
ID development, rapid prototyping
and rapid testing andevaluation of those IDs onsite,
I think helped us respondreally, really quickly
and to really action whatiterative design means.
- Mm-hmm.
(11:30):
- It's a lot of history in the building.
There used to be the RoyalBrisbane and Women's Hospital
was in this building.
It was the hospital and thenit's been used over the past,
I think, 50 years foradministrative purposes
and then clinical again.
We see a lot of surgeons say,
(11:50):
"Oh, I did my internshiphere that many decades ago,"
and now it's undergoing anew transformation with HBI
but also with considerations
for other floors.
How did you actually honour
and incorporate thehistory of the building
(12:11):
in what you did for HBI?
I know we did terrazzotouches, for example.
- Yeah, look, it's really interesting
because it was designed way back in 1977
and it's certainly a veryarchitectural building
but Brutalist in its nature.
We understood from theresearch that it used
to be also a specialist researchand laboratory facility.
So, it's had a really varied past
(12:32):
and that's what we thoughtwas really interesting,
that we created thisopportunity to re-life
an otherwise kind oftired and sad building,
to almost come full circle tobecoming a laboratory again.
So, we certainly used those constraints,
I guess, in the designchallenges to really
harness something thatwas completely different
(12:54):
and completely unexpected because
we want your consumers
and your partners and philanthropists
to do exactly what you've described,
to walk in and say,
"Wow, I didn't expect this to be there."
So, the Institute is so many things
to different stakeholders.
I mean, you've just mentioned an example
of a life-changing kindof outcome from the work
(13:16):
that you do, but it's also a place
for public transparency and education
and innovation and healing.
So, it's just a really interesting place
that we've really enjoyed working on
and actually hoping that it's future-proof
that it's flexible for all of the advances
in technology that we cannever kind of predict.
But hopefully, we builta facility with you
(13:38):
that responds and changes over time.
- Yes, patients do love it too.
- We wanted to createa space that patients
and consumers felt really comfortable in.
I think some of the issuesthat you've described
could potentially be quite traumatic
for different people, and certainly,
we wanted to create aspace that made people
(13:59):
feel really welcome.
So, I think intentionallyour design is based
around human kind of scale materials.
You referenced the terrazzo that was
from the original Brutalist building
from the '70s and wewanted to kind of reference
that in the palette so that everything
feels quite natural, timeless,
and not necessarilyover-clinical or scary,
(14:24):
I guess, to people that arecoming from the general public.
- I think the transparencythroughout does play
a big role as well because we have
a portion of the Institute
that is accessible to the public.
You know when you go to posh restaurants
and you can see whathappens in the kitchen?
People have work.
So, we've got someelements of that very much
(14:47):
happening where when consumers, visitors,
do come to the Institute,
they can have a walk around.
They can approach a 3Dlaboratory without getting in,
but they can still get a glimpse
of what activities are happening in there.
Fittingly put, recently I hadone consumer representatives
(15:11):
and I just found him in a staff kitchen
making himself a cup of tea.
I was delighted that they felt comfortable
enough to walk through that open door
and walk in the kitchen,
make themselves a cup of tea, sit down
and start engaging with a medical student
who happens to be walking through
(15:33):
at the same time and is starting
to share what they're working on.
- Yeah, that's fantastic.
Can you describe a bitabout the inclusive nature
and how the design supports that?
- Typically, hospital waiting rooms
are not very welcoming spaces.
They're a bit scary.
(15:53):
It's a bit noisy.
Some mismatched chairs.
You said earlier,
"How about how we try to designa space that was welcoming."
So, we have very muchtried to create a space
that is inclusive, that is free-flowing.
We've designed a couple ofvery beautiful consult rooms,
(16:15):
which we have started to use already,
to consent patientsand very much tried to,
I guess, design something that had a flow
that would warranty privacy, comfort,
and the preservation ofdignity for our patient.
(16:36):
So, it's really heartwarmingwhen we see patients
who can walk in andfeel comfortable enough
to they can have a seat,
can have a cup of tea,
we can then come andhave that conversation.
It takes bravery on theirpart to come on board
(16:58):
with what we do.
And consumers so far havebeen absolutely wonderful.
But imagine a few decades ago
if you had walked inand you would've said,
"Oh, you going to receivea 3D-printed device."
You might have been like, "Sorry, what?"
- Yeah, exactly.
And that's what's sobuoyant about it is just,
it's unimaginable technologythat you're producing.
(17:19):
It's really, really fantastic.
But I do love that story.
I think the idea that someone feels
so comfortable that theycan make themselves a tea,
a cup of tea, is justsuch a fantastic story
- And it leads onto other opportunities.
So, that particular consumer is involved
with a larger group, whichis a peer support group
(17:41):
for burn survivors.
And so they have get-together where people
can come and shareexperiences and stories.
So, leading on from that,
they asked if could they meet here?
- Wow.
- And so we said,
"Yes, you can absolutely meet here."
(18:03):
So, in a few weeks' time,just in a couple of weeks,
we have that group of the peersupport for burn survivors,
who's going to come andspend an afternoon here,
and they're bringing a speaker
who's the first personto receive a particular
type of medical device that's
(18:25):
to heal the skin following severe burns.
Again, incredibly brave individuals.
We're going to have these people coming,
they bring their own speaker.
It's been a come andshare their experience,
and then some people might like to come
and take a look at the lab
and look at what our latest advances
(18:46):
are using 3D-printingtechnologies for burns care.
So, I'm looking forward to it.
- Yeah, that sounds great.
What a fantasticopportunity for the facility
to be utilised in that way.
Actually, you mentionedthe burns support group
and understand you're doing more than
just 3D printing within the facility.
(19:08):
You're also working on differentapps and VR technology.
Is that the case?
- Yeah, so we've alsobeen using the space,
so you designed for us aroom that we use extensively.
It's called the Innovation Hub,
which is a very flexible space
that's got beautiful big screens for AV
(19:29):
and microphones and cameras,
and a way to configureseating so we can have it
very formal or very casual.
So, we're very, I guess,flexible, plastic space,
and we've been running alot of co-design sessions
in that room with burn survivors
and with burns conditions
(19:50):
as well to be able to start integrating
virtual reality technologies,integrating care.
So, virtual reality for healthcare,
it's actively exploding,
but the hardware and software combinations
that existed there are notalways particularly suitable
(20:13):
to use in the specificcontext of burns care
and of public health as well.
- Have you noticed anychanges in your colleagues
since the Institute's been open?
- Yes.
I think people are being perhaps
even more trans- andmulti-disciplinary than ever before.
(20:36):
Last Friday, I was processinga 3D scan of a patient.
I don't get to do it very much anymore,
but once in a while,
I like to take the scanand process it myself
and I make a point ofnot doing it at my desk,
I'll go in the lab to do it.
(20:57):
So, I take the scans, seen the patient,
I've scanned them, and I went to the lab
and I plug in one of the bighigh-performance computers
and I'm starting to process my scan.
I'm not saying anything to anyone.
Next second, I've got one of our designers
who's walking past andstarting to point things
(21:18):
on the screen.
Be like, "Oh, what is this here?
"And is this an artefact there?"
And da-di-da.
The next minute,
I've got one of our biomedical engineers
who I can just call out and say,
"Hey, I think, can you check,
"but can you check thisparticular feature there?
"It looks a little weird.
(21:39):
"What do you think?"
So, he's able to do that.
And three minutes later,one of our surgeons,
he's going to walk in,and I'm able to say,
"Ah, perfect.
"You are here.
"Come and have a look atthis because the three of us
"have been wondering aboutthis particular feature here
"and I'm not sure what to do about it.
(22:02):
"What do you think?"
And so that surgeon is ableto come and have a look.
So, the problem was solvedthrough that beautiful,
organic, free-flowing,multidisciplinary collaboration
that we had between engineers, designers,
(22:24):
and that surgeon who is looking after
that particular patient.
So, we were able tosolve it in four minutes
by being organically able to solve that
by walking past each other,
which we would not havebeen able to do previously
before we had thatopportunity for co-location.
(22:46):
Carolyn, if I could aska last question to you.
If you had to do this again
or if another hospital
in Asia-Pacific were looking at setting up
their own version of what we have here,
(23:07):
what would be your advice to them,
if you had to do it different again now?
Is there something youwould do differently?
- Oh, I think I woulddefinitely do a lot of things.
Well, I think I would do things the same,
in that making sure thatwe design for people,
I think, first and foremost.
So, really understandingthe brief of the people.
Suggesting that it isa co-located facility
(23:30):
because all of youranecdotes kind of respond
to how important co-locationis with other clinical areas.
I also would think that relifing
or repurposing a building,
particularly space thatmight be underutilised.
So, sort of giving it newlife through a facility
(23:51):
like HBI would be really beneficial
for those differentfacilities in Asia-Pacific.
So, I don't necessarily think we would do
anything differently.
I think we would just make sure
that we're always designing for people.
Thank you so much,Mathilde, for your time.
It was really incredible
and I just love all thosevariety of anecdotes
(24:13):
were just awesome.
- That was really fun.
I haven't done a podcast ina while, so that was fun.
- I'm Carolyn Solley.
You've been listening to anepisode of Hassell Talks.
Please subscribe and leaveus a review where you can.
We'd love for you to share your thoughts
and feedback with us onthe insights we gather
from across our network of designers,
researchers, clients, andcollaborators like Mathilde.
Don't forget, you canfind out about our work
(24:35):
and insights at hassellstudio.com.
This episode was produced by Prue Vincent
and Michelle Bailey.
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