The 15 Minute City has become a hot topic - gaining traction in corners of the internet not typically involved in the dialogue around city planning and urban living.
With forward-thinking conversations threatened to be overtaken by conspiracy theories, we wanted to share an episode we recorded with London-based research lead Camilla Siggaard Andersen in 2022 on the topic of 15 Minute Cities. Specifically looking at the research she conducted, and the challenges she discovered are facing cities in Ireland and elsewhere as they grapple with climate change, urban sprawl and wellbeing.
In this episode you'll hear from:
Pat Farrell, CEO, Irish Institutional Property Brian Moran, Senior Managing Director, Hines Niamh Moore Cherry, Associate Professor, School of Geography, University College Dublin; and Ali Grehan, former City of Dublin Architect
As Hassell’s “Close to Home” report shows, 15-minute cities provide opportunities for more convenient living, more equitable communities and more sustainable development. What's not to like?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(upbeat music)
- From Hassell, anaward-winning architecture
and design practise,this is Hassell Talks.
I'm Camilla Siggaard Andersen.
I'm an architect, and I'vealways been really interested
in understanding how designshapes social, environmental,
and economic outcomes inour cities and communities.
(00:23):
And the more I've looked intoit, the more certain I am
that the built environment isthe cause of and the solution
to many of the issueswe face as individuals
and as a global society.
In fact, there are enormousamounts of research to show
that almost everything aboutour health and well-being,
(00:46):
from how we feel when we lookout of our bedroom window
in the morning to thequality of the air we breathe
when we travel to work, can be related
to the design of the spaces, buildings,
and transport networks that we use.
Still, it's rare for urbanplanning research in theory
to make it into the publicdiscourse, until now.
(01:10):
- Ireland, and indeed themain cities in Ireland
are going through a significant challenge.
- That's Brian Moran,senior managing director
at Hines Real Estate in Ireland.
- It's fantastic to see theconcept of the 15-minute city
become more and moreprevalent, becoming something
that is getting into the commondiscourse here in Ireland.
And it's recently becomemore relevant here
(01:33):
as the city plans are beingrenewed, and we were very happy
to see how did thatconcept apply in Ireland.
- As a developer, Brianis naturally interested
in the planning of cities and places.
But the concept he's talkingabout, the idea of creating
a 15-minute city, hascaptured people's attention
far beyond the usualindustry professionals.
(01:56):
Last year in February 2021,
Dublin City Councilpublished survey finding
that just over one in threeof the city's residents knew
and understood this concept.
The year before, in 2020, themayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo,
was reelected with the 15-minutecity as the cornerstone
(02:18):
of the campaign focused onimproving the quality of life
for everyday Parisians.
In Melbourne, Australia, the notion
of a 20-minute neighbourhood
has been shaping planningdecisions since 2018.
And in Portland, USA,the idea has been one
of the city's coreconsultation tools since 2006.
(02:42):
- The 15-minute city,20-minute neighbourhood,
or indeed in some places, 10-minute towns,
are all variations ofthe same essential idea,
and that is that the builtenvironment should be planned
to increase people's access toeveryday places and services.
What amenities do peoplehave access to close to home,
(03:05):
and how easily can you get to them?
That's a central question
that all of these concepts beg us to ask.
In this episode, we'll betalking about 15-minute cities
on the basis of a comprehensiveresearch study Hassell
published last year together
with Irish institutional Property.
We'll be taking a closerlook at the future
(03:27):
that this concept couldunlock for Ireland,
the Irish cities, and their citizens.
- My name is Pat Farrell.
I'm CEO of Irish Institutional Property.
IIP is a membership of 17institutional investors.
Collectively, they'reresponsible for upwards
(03:47):
of 16 billion of investment inthe Irish real estate market.
And that investment is focuseda lot of it on housing built
for purchase, and indeed, housing for rent
because we have a chronichousing shortage in Ireland,
both for rental and for ownership.
- As an organisation withtheir finger in the pulse
in the local real estate market,
(04:07):
Irish Institutional Property came to us
with a keen interest inunderstanding how such an idea
as the 15-minute city could beapplied in five Irish cities.
- The five Irish cities we focused on,
and there are fiveeffective population centres
in Ireland that qualify asI suppose in those terms
as cities, Dublin, Cork,Waterford, Limerick, and Galway.
(04:31):
They're all endowed withvery rich natural amenities
because we're an island nation,
and all of our citiesare located on the coast.
So they have huge access to both green
and blue infrastructure.
- Historically, Irishcities in the 18th century
were built with walkability in mind.
(04:52):
So all of our cities actually,
you could access all of the keyamenities within 15 minutes.
So you could say that Irishcities were ahead of their time.
They were actually15-minute cities in reality,
but then of course the onwardmarch of suburbanization
meant that that concept got lost somewhat.
And so I suppose thecurrent challenge is to try
and reclaim that feature.
(05:16):
- In addition to beinga compelling narrative
for an urban revival, theidea of 15-minute city
also happens to be closely aligned
to the Irish government'snational planning agenda,
something Pat's keenly aware of.
- In the Irish context, the government
has actually officiallymandated compact growth
(05:36):
as part of its National Development Plan
and its strategy for developingour cities and towns.
- Pat's talking about Ireland'sNational Planning Framework,
also known as Project 2040.
It's essentially a strategy
for how to manage the nation'sexpected population boom
in the most sustainableand responsible manner,
(05:57):
all the while addressing latent issues
and mounting pressureson the housing market,
public transport, and shared amenities.
Key objectives include preservingthe natural environment
by curbing suburban sprawl,
increasing the quality of life for people
by providing more and better amenities,
(06:17):
reducing the nation'scarbon emissions per capita
by reducing car dependency,and creating a stronger economy
based in local skills and innovation.
The government has called this
a vision of compact sustainable growth,
but in many ways it might
as well be speaking of the 15-minute city.
(06:38):
- My name is Niamh MooreCherry and I am a lecturer
at the School of Geographyat University College Dublin.
And I was a local consultant with Hassell
on this 15-minute cities project.
- With both the 15-minute city concept
and the National Planning Framework,
talking about bringingpeople closer together
to create more sustainable
(06:59):
and amenity-rich local environments,
we look to Niamh to understandhow this vision fits
in with where Ireland's currently at.
- Well, Ireland has areally ambitious programme
at the moment in terms ofwhat we want our future
to look like.
So in February 2018,the government published
the National Planning Framework,
which I would argue is actually
(07:19):
one of the most ambitiousplanning frameworks
of any country in the world.
- The issue now is about implementation.
There's a range of historicaland economic reasons
why there's a challengeto density in Ireland,
and partly it's because ofthe history of development
and how Dublin expanded and many
of the other cities expanded.
There's no real historyof industrialization
(07:40):
in the city course, so whenthe city's expanded over time,
they expanded on the edge.
So suburbanization hasresulted in massive sprawl,
lots of employment ison the edge of the city.
And that really then creates a challenge
in terms of where peoplelive, trying to access
where they live fromwhere they're employed,
and that also creates big problems then
(08:01):
in terms of trying to movepeople around the city
and the dependence on cars and so on.
So what we have is a disconnectbetween where employment
is located and where housing is located,
which gives rise to thechallenges that we see.
- Pat Farrell also talksabout the current issues
of sprawl and car dependency in Ireland.
(08:22):
- Somebody I was speaking toearlier this morning mentioned
the fact that Dublin has 10drive time radio stations.
So that tells you somethingabout what is the primary mode
of transport for gettingin and out of Dublin.
- The average daily commutein Dublin is almost one hour,
making it one of the longest travel times
(08:42):
of any European capital.
- We don't have a well-developed
public transport infrastructure.
And again, there's a verystrong linkage between
that and the way our city has evolved.
The economics of publictransport in Dublin
are very difficult becausewe're a very low rise city,
and therefore you're putting
in place a transportinfrastructure to pull
(09:03):
through a very thinlypopulated urban centre.
And therefore, that presentsa lot of challenges.
Compact growth, 15-minutecities, and everything
that goes with that is the answer.
But again, as our report shows,there are lots of challenges
in trying to bring peoplealong with that conversation
(09:26):
and get them to accept thetrade-offs that are necessary
to achieve what we think isa very laudable ambition.
- As both Pat and Niamh point out,
Ireland's century-longpreference for low rise,
car-centric development hascreated serious barriers
for realising today's15-minute city vision.
In studying the population densities
(09:48):
of the five Irish cities, wediscovered that in Dublin,
only two in five people live in an area
with enough residents
to be able to feasibly meetthe 15-minute city criteria.
While for the four othercities, it's only 1 in 10.
Incidentally, most of theseareas predate the 20th century
(10:09):
when walking was still theprimary mode of transportation.
- These numbers also mirror the results
of a population surveyHassell conducted via YouGov.
The survey reached morethan 1,000 Irish adults.
By asking people abouttheir current access levels,
we learned that only 10% ofthe Irish population currently
(10:32):
feel that they can walk
to all the essential amenitieswithin 15 minutes or less.
Reflecting Niamh's observations,
workplaces tend to be theleast accessible amenity,
while grocery shops andpublic transport stops are
in higher supply.
When asked about the ideal situation,
1 in 3 people would like to be
(10:54):
within a 15-minute walking radius
of every single type ofamenity that we listed.
While 33% may not soundlike a landslide victory
for the 15-minute city concept,
it still triple the numberof today's situation
and an impressive resultconsidering that some people
might not have any interestin accessing, for example,
(11:17):
workplaces or educational institutions,
or some people are also limited
in their ability to walk altogether.
- The quality of life for people living
in cities in Ireland is quite variable.
For example, in Dublin,many people can't afford
to live close to their employment,
so they're commuting very long distances,
and it means their quality of life
is really negatively impacted by that.
(11:39):
Whereas if you look atsome of the smaller cities,
for example, Waterford,
where there's an opportunityand where there are more people
living close to home,
you see that there isless of a negative impact.
But also the natural amenities.
If we think of Cork Harbour for example,
the natural amenities aroundCork are really playing
into much better qualityof life livability
(11:59):
and experience for people livingcloser to the city centre.
- So I think it really dependson the city in Ireland,
and it's really down to how close you are
to your employment, to youramenities, to natural amenities,
to your shops, to yourgrocery stores, and so on.
So the greater distancesyou have to travel
for those things, the lowerquality of life, if you like.
(12:21):
They're less livable places.
- At this point, you might be wondering
why we keep talkingabout issues of transport
and density when the 15-minutecity is supposed to be
about gaining access to agreater variety of amenities
within a local neighbourhood.
Just for those of youout there who are new
to urban planning,
(12:42):
here's the short version ofhow these factors are related.
Imagine living in aplace where you have five
to six different destinations close by,
such as a park, a grocery shop, a library,
a café, a dentist, and maybe a nursery.
Let's say that you'd like to be able
to walk to each of these destinations
(13:03):
within a quarter of anhour, and that you walk
at an average speed offive kilometres per hour.
In effect, each destinationwould have to be
within a 1. 25-kilometerradius from your home.
- Each of these places in turnneed visitors and customers,
(13:24):
other people who are ableto reach them by foot
as part of their daily comings and goings.
In order for most businesses to survive,
they need quite a few visitors every day.
Even a library needs a minimum footfall
just as a school needs pupils.
If there's not enough peoplewithin a walking distance,
(13:44):
then a destinationessentially has two choices.
It can either close up shop orit can try to attract people
who are coming from furtheraway, such as by car.
And that might be all right,
except now you have more traffic
on the roads and you havemore areas for parking,
which makes the environmentless conducive to walking
(14:07):
and takes away spacethat could have been used
for homes or parks orother types of amenities.
- Global studies findthat a population density
of between 5,000 to 25,000people per square kilometre
or 50 to 250 people per hectare is ideal
for making sure that thereare enough people around
(14:30):
to sustain the local economyand the local amenities
within a primarily walkable environment.
These are the types ofdensities that we find in places
like Central Copenhagenand Vienna and Paris.
Additionally, thesetypes of places benefit
from being able tooperate more sustainably
with a lower carbon footprint per capita.
(14:52):
- Our cities are fundamentally sustainable
if they're built properly.
There is a sense out therethat cities are highly
unsustainable becausethere's lots of people there.
There's buildingsemitting energy and so on.
But actually, citiesare where the solution
to the climate crisis is going to be found
because they provide opportunities
(15:12):
because of higher density living,
people living closer together,
to be able to provide publictransport and make it viable
to actually give peopleoptions other than jumping
in a car to get from A to B.
So cities, the packingof people close together
in quality environmentsis actually central
(15:33):
to addressing some of theissues that emerge from sprawl,
from pollution that comesfrom that, and so on.
- At the moment, noneof the Irish cities meet
the overall density levelsrequired to provide amenities
within a 15-minute walkof most people's homes.
There's simply too muchspace between people
and too many cars on the roads.
(15:56):
- The struggle in Irelandaround adopting density,
I think, is something that'sgone on for quite a long time,
but it's something thatreally will have to stop soon.
- The government's compactgrowth agenda clearly signals
a change in the directionof adding more homes
where people already areinstead of on new sites
that expand the footprint of the city.
(16:17):
But the actual route toimplementation is not
just about adjustingnumbers, but very much
about changing hearts and minds too.
- If you're talking aboutsignificant change in urban areas,
which is what you are lookingat with compact growth,
then we need to have earlyconversations with people
about the benefits and the trade-offs
as well as the challenges.
(16:38):
Now, in Ireland, we're usedto having a lot of space,
a front garden, a back garden.
With compact growth,we're not just talking
about behavioural change,
but there's also a change in expectations.
Ireland hasn't reallyexperienced large scale quality
urban planning of thekind that's associated
with successful 15-minute city strategies.
(16:58):
We need to do more work on that,
and there are alreadygood examples emerging.
I think as people see more andmore of those good examples
and actually live inthem and experience them,
then people will buy moreand more into the concept.
- The question now is are thecitizens of Waterford, Galway,
Limerick, Cork, and Dublinready to embrace everything
(17:21):
that would be required of them
to make the 15-minute city a reality?
As Pat and Niamh explained,the chief challenge
to the 15-minute city concept in Ireland
has to do with attractingmore residents to settle
within existing urban areaspaired with increasing walking,
cycling, and public transport use,
(17:43):
and providing the supporting amenities.
- Without that densificationof our cities and towns,
we will never get to the 15-minute concept
that we aspire to.
I've heard some people say,"Well, you can't densify
because the services aren't there,
that the local GP does not exist,
that there is not the amenitiesto sustain more density
(18:05):
in these urban situations."
But that is the chicken and egg conundrum.
The reality is as soonas you bring the density,
the services will come.
- That's Brian Moran again,the senior managing director
in the development group Hines,
who are also members ofIrish Institutional Property.
Private developers like Hinesare some of the key players
(18:26):
required to meet the goals set out
by the government'sNational Planning Framework.
- In recent years, we'vehad significant new guidance
that is mandatory from central government
requiring developers,especially on larger sites
in regeneration, brownfield infill sites
to where they have scale totackle the density challenge
(18:46):
and come up with good designthat is much higher density
than previously would'vebeen done in Ireland.
- Brian's also seeing theopportunity to regenerate
the Irish cities arounda 15-minute city idea
as a chance to alignsocial, environmental,
and economic ambitions.
- Even in Dublin Cityover the next 20 years,
(19:08):
we probably have to grow our housing stock
by about another 30%.
That's very significant.
That cannot happen by urban sprawl.
We've already stretched thecity to as far as we should,
and we've got to look atthe balance being infilled,
brownfield development to achieve that.
That's a phenomenalinvestment opportunity,
(19:28):
no question about it.
And I think one of thechallenges as a small country
is we actually have toimport a lot of the capital
to do that work.
Previously, Irish people invested locally.
That led to a very big bubble.
I think people were awareof the crash in 2008, 2009,
where we kept investing in ourselves
and driving the prices up.
(19:50):
That's stopped.
There's a lot of regulation around that,
but also many Irish investorsnow diversify globally.
So we actually need tobring investment in,
and about 80% of thecapital we need to build
are the residentialdevelopment going forward
and now will have to be imported.
- Many international investors
in particular, theinstitutional investors,
are only going to invest wherethere's a strong ESG focus.
(20:14):
They've got to know that their investments
are going into sustainable development.
Building non-sustainable development
is not going to be something
that their boards willsign off going forward.
So we have to have a good debate here
around the 15-minute city, sustainability,
and creating investment opportunities
that match the aspirations of investors.
(20:34):
- At the moment, Hineshave more than $3.7 billion
worth of assets underdevelopment in Ireland.
As a developer, Brian canclearly see the benefits
of the compact growth agendaand the 15-minute city idea,
and he's keen to seeboth concepts realised
over the coming decades.
(20:55):
But in working on large scale projects
all around the country, healso has a first line view
of the barriers holding these projects up.
- We have a very large siteof the South Circular Road,
which is if for those peoplewho don't know Dublin,
is on the CBD edge.
So you're talking 10minutes cycle distance
to the big employment hubs,
(21:16):
maybe 20 minutes walk soa perfect place to live
but not have to useanything other than walking
and cycling to get to work.
It's got existing urbanvillages right beside it.
By the way, some of them are struggling
because there isn't thedensity of people there,
but that would benefit from
a significant additional population.
- We're under an obligation
(21:36):
in terms of meeting nationalguidelines around density
to build so that it's a compliment
to the existing lower densities.
We have to have largesetbacks so the buildings
around the edge of thesite which need to respect
the existing communities are only two,
three stories growing up, stepby step, four, five stories.
But by the time we get tothe centre of the site,
which is 100, 150 metres awayfrom any existing housing,
(22:01):
we need to be at 15, 16 stories.
And therefore, we haveto use great architects
who are well able to do replace making,
understand daylight shadowing,
public space to get that right.
And we are definitely having
a real challenge gettingprojects like that
through the planning system
because of the backlash on height.
(22:22):
I think if you sit down with people,
they're not arguing about,"Great to have new people,
great to have new architecture,let's get more housing in.
Height, we just don't want height."
- What Brian is coming up againstis the negative perception
of density and heightthat prevails in Ireland
despite the social, economic,and environmental benefits
(22:42):
that such places might bring.
There's also the perceptionthat density has to be delivered
alongside tall buildings,which one only has to look
to Copenhagen or Paristo see as a fallacy.
Here's Niamh again explaining
where people's apprehensionmight be coming from.
- For people who aren't sureabout a change in density
(23:03):
in their cities, I cancompletely understand that
because we have had a veryhistorical negative, I suppose,
reaction to high rise, highdensity living in Ireland.
We have very few good examples.
So what I would say is thatit's not necessarily the idea
of higher density livingthat's the problem,
(23:23):
but it's how it has been done in the past.
So what we need to think about
is what are the benefits ofthis higher density living?
What can we actually achieve
by bringing places closer together?
And what are the benefitsfor having everything
in close location, timesavings, better air quality,
better access to amenities, and generally
(23:45):
just a better quality of life.
- Other cities in Europe haveevolved in a similar way,
but I think the coredifference between Ireland
and those other places is first of all,
we have a very differenthistorical background.
So I think Ireland has this very rural,
traditional, agrarian kind of identity.
So the idea of urban living is something
(24:07):
that's almost seen asbeing imported from abroad.
And I suppose Ireland hasalso, in the European context
it's quite rare, butIreland has actually got
a post-colonial history as the colonised
as opposed to the colonisers.
So many of our citiesare actually imports,
if you like, from other places.
So that sense of what an Irish city is
(24:28):
is very underdeveloped, I would say.
- In our population survey,
we found that only 14% ofthe Irish population overall
found a compact neighbourhood
to be a desirable place to live and work.
39% of people said that they desired
to live in a place that's more spread out.
(24:48):
Even so, 59% would stilllike their neighbourhood
to be primarily walkable,and 70% of people wish
to be within a 15-minutewalk of public transport.
It seems there's a disconnect
between the types oflifestyles people desire
and the types of builtenvironments we aspire to live in.
(25:09):
- Those words, dense, compact,
they are hugely threatening to people.
- Here's Ali Grehan, theDublin City architect.
- And they're very hardwords, compact, dense.
There's nothing in those wordsthat says quality of life,
livability, nothing.
There's nothing aboutthose words that says,
(25:29):
"We want you to have reallya positive experience
of how this place will be."
- Ali's remit is tofocus on the experience
and quality of the builtenvironment in Dublin
and to help the city be the best it can be
for its citizens and visitors.
- Instead, we use those wordsand people react negatively
to them because they don'tactually talk about livability
(25:52):
and quality of life andquality of experience
in the built environment,
and they don't talk abouthow people use spaces,
and they don't talkabout what people value
in places and spaces.
So I suppose the biggest challenge we face
in densifying Dublin is actually providing
all of the amenities thatare everything but the homes.
(26:13):
Of course, we have to provide the homes,
but if we want people toaccept those homes, apartments,
smaller homes, then they mighthave in this outer suburbs.
If we're going to getpeople to accept the idea
that it's good to live in asmaller home in the city centre,
we have to make sure that the experience
outside the front door
(26:34):
of their smaller home is really wonderful.
- I asked Ali how shethought the challenges
in Ireland would compareto other places in Europe.
- If a question is, areDubliners resistant to change?
I'd say, well, are policymakersresistant to change,
resistant to changing how we go
about our business of developing Dublin?
(26:54):
Are private developersresistant to change,
resistant to how they mightchange their perception
of what is a positive development?
Is it really positive for the community?
And of course, our community'sresistant to change
because they fear that changewill take something away.
- What Ali is talkingabout here is a pattern
(27:16):
that we see play out inmany cities around the world
that are trying toretrofit existing places
and infrastructure to more sustainable
and convenient models.
Private developers are required
to change their business models,policymakers are required
to change their goals and their messaging,
and citizens are requiredto change their lifestyles.
(27:38):
- Increasing density is a bigchallenge that needs everybody
involved to work together to appreciate
that everybody has to give alittle, Dublin City Council,
private developers, particularly
in large private developmentsthat private developers
have to do more to actuallyprovide additional amenity.
- Ideally, the outcome ofthis process will be positive
for all, but the road isfar from frictionless.
(28:02):
- Change is very hard for people,
and I think we're all accept that
that change needs to happen.
We maybe take the view that maybe
it's somebody else'sresponsibility to do the changing
and we can continue as we areto address climate change.
We've all got to takemassive steps towards
making better decisions abouthow we build and how we live.
(28:25):
I don't think Dublinersare any more resistant
to change than anywhere else.
In fact, I think whenit's put up to Dubliners,
they actually respond verycreatively to challenges
once they see the benefit.
I think there's a strongsense of community
and generosity in Dublin,and so when people see
(28:46):
that something's worth doingand it's going to be good,
positive for their neighboursand for themselves,
they will get behind it.
- Hearing from Pat Farrell,
CEO of Irish Institutional Property,
he's also hugely positiveabout the potential
of the 15-minute city ideato bring about the change
(29:06):
in mindset that Ireland needs.
- What excites me aboutit is that for those
that have experienced citiesthat are further along the path
on the concept of 15-minutecity, they get the benefits.
It is just a questionof getting that message
across to more and more people.
- The 15-minute City is verymuch a people-centered concept
(29:28):
designed to improve people'slives by offering them
greater levels of access and convenience,
but it's also a concept that comes
with massive environmentalbenefits which are perhaps
not as clear to people as they could be.
Only 15% of the Irish population believe
that compactness is a sustainable feature
(29:50):
of a neighbourhood, while37% think it's better
to spread out buildingsover larger areas of land.
- Basically, leadership is needed here
because the government hasactually ordained compact growth.
They've said that we needto get to better density
of population and within ourcities and prove the density,
(30:10):
but it's not clear thatpoliticians always accept
that there's a necessity tocommunicate that to people.
- The notion that a moreopen, honest dialogue
around what type of cities Ireland
should be developingis on everyone's mind.
- I think we have to try and understand
what we're about better and ask ourselves,
(30:31):
"Are we trying to engage with communities
in a co-creative process?
Are we actually trying to understand
why people are concerned about change?"
- I just think that weall need to face up to it,
and we need to have a mature,deliberative conversation,
(30:52):
discussion about whatkind of country we want,
what kind of cities we want in particular,
and then come to a conclusion
as to how we're going tocollectively go forward.
- It's clear that wewon't be able to resolve
the Irish cities' identitycrisis in a single conversation,
but hopefully we've been ableto bring some of the benefits
(31:15):
and challenges of the 15-minutecity concept into light.
If anything, this conceptseems to be a more productive
and captivating starting pointfor everyone with a decided
and human perspective
that we can all relate to and understand.
- I want to thank Niamh Moore Cherry
(31:35):
from University College Dublin,
Ali Grehan from Dublin City Council,
Pat Farrell from IrishInstitutional Property,
and Brian Moran from Hines RealEstate for their insightful
and open contributions to this episode.
Keep an ear out for futureepisodes that will explore more
(31:55):
on 15-minute cities witha global perspective,
looking into our surveyresults from the UK, Australia,
and the US.
If you are enjoying theHassell Talks podcast
or have any thoughts you'd like to share,
please leave a review anddon't forget you can find
more episodes andinformation about our work
and insights hassellstudio.com.
(32:18):
This episode was producedby Prue Vincent and myself
with support from One Fine Play.
Thanks for listening.
(upbeat music)
- From Hassell, anaward-winning architecture
and design practise,this is Hassell Talks.
I'm Camilla Siggaard Andersen.
I'm an architect, and I'vealways been really interested
in understanding how designshapes social, environmental,
and economic outcomes inour cities and communities.
(00:23):
And the more I've looked intoit, the more certain I am
that the built environment isthe cause of and the solution
to many of the issueswe face as individuals
and as a global society.
In fact, there are enormousamounts of research to show
that almost everything aboutour health and well-being,
(00:46):
from how we feel when we lookout of our bedroom window
in the morning to thequality of the air we breathe
when we travel to work, can be related
to the design of the spaces, buildings,
and transport networks that we use.
Still, it's rare for urbanplanning research in theory
to make it into the publicdiscourse, until now.
(01:10):
- Ireland, and indeed themain cities in Ireland
are going through a significant challenge.
- That's Brian Moran,senior managing director
at Hines Real Estate in Ireland.
- It's fantastic to see theconcept of the 15-minute city
become more and moreprevalent, becoming something
that is getting into the commondiscourse here in Ireland.
And it's recently becomemore relevant here
(01:33):
as the city plans are beingrenewed, and we were very happy
to see how did thatconcept apply in Ireland.
- As a developer, Brianis naturally interested
in the planning of cities and places.
But the concept he's talkingabout, the idea of creating
a 15-minute city, hascaptured people's attention
far beyond the usualindustry professionals.
(01:56):
Last year in February 2021,
Dublin City Councilpublished survey finding
that just over one in threeof the city's residents knew
and understood this concept.
The year before, in 2020, themayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo,
was reelected with the 15-minutecity as the cornerstone
(02:18):
of the campaign focused onimproving the quality of life
for everyday Parisians.
In Melbourne, Australia, the notion
of a 20-minute neighbourhood
has been shaping planningdecisions since 2018.
And in Portland, USA,the idea has been one
of the city's coreconsultation tools since 2006.
(02:42):
- The 15-minute city,20-minute neighbourhood,
or indeed in some places, 10-minute towns,
are all variations ofthe same essential idea,
and that is that the builtenvironment should be planned
to increase people's access toeveryday places and services.
What amenities do peoplehave access to close to home,
(03:05):
and how easily can you get to them?
That's a central question
that all of these concepts beg us to ask.
In this episode, we'll betalking about 15-minute cities
on the basis of a comprehensiveresearch study Hassell
published last year together
with Irish institutional Property.
We'll be taking a closerlook at the future
(03:27):
that this concept couldunlock for Ireland,
the Irish cities, and their citizens.
- My name is Pat Farrell.
I'm CEO of Irish Institutional Property.
IIP is a membership of 17institutional investors.
Collectively, they'reresponsible for upwards
(03:47):
of 16 billion of investment inthe Irish real estate market.
And that investment is focuseda lot of it on housing built
for purchase, and indeed, housing for rent
because we have a chronichousing shortage in Ireland,
both for rental and for ownership.
- As an organisation withtheir finger in the pulse
in the local real estate market,
(04:07):
Irish Institutional Property came to us
with a keen interest inunderstanding how such an idea
as the 15-minute city could beapplied in five Irish cities.
- The five Irish cities we focused on,
and there are fiveeffective population centres
in Ireland that qualify asI suppose in those terms
as cities, Dublin, Cork,Waterford, Limerick, and Galway.
(04:31):
They're all endowed withvery rich natural amenities
because we're an island nation,
and all of our citiesare located on the coast.
So they have huge access to both green
and blue infrastructure.
- Historically, Irishcities in the 18th century
were built with walkability in mind.
(04:52):
So all of our cities actually,
you could access all of the keyamenities within 15 minutes.
So you could say that Irishcities were ahead of their time.
They were actually15-minute cities in reality,
but then of course the onwardmarch of suburbanization
meant that that concept got lost somewhat.
And so I suppose thecurrent challenge is to try
and reclaim that feature.
(05:16):
- In addition to beinga compelling narrative
for an urban revival, theidea of 15-minute city
also happens to be closely aligned
to the Irish government'snational planning agenda,
something Pat's keenly aware of.
- In the Irish context, the government
has actually officiallymandated compact growth
(05:36):
as part of its National Development Plan
and its strategy for developingour cities and towns.
- Pat's talking about Ireland'sNational Planning Framework,
also known as Project 2040.
It's essentially a strategy
for how to manage the nation'sexpected population boom
in the most sustainableand responsible manner,
(05:57):
all the while addressing latent issues
and mounting pressureson the housing market,
public transport, and shared amenities.
Key objectives include preservingthe natural environment
by curbing suburban sprawl,
increasing the quality of life for people
by providing more and better amenities,
(06:17):
reducing the nation'scarbon emissions per capita
by reducing car dependency,and creating a stronger economy
based in local skills and innovation.
The government has called this
a vision of compact sustainable growth,
but in many ways it might
as well be speaking of the 15-minute city.
(06:38):
- My name is Niamh MooreCherry and I am a lecturer
at the School of Geographyat University College Dublin.
And I was a local consultant with Hassell
on this 15-minute cities project.
- With both the 15-minute city concept
and the National Planning Framework,
talking about bringingpeople closer together
to create more sustainable
(06:59):
and amenity-rich local environments,
we look to Niamh to understandhow this vision fits
in with where Ireland's currently at.
- Well, Ireland has areally ambitious programme
at the moment in terms ofwhat we want our future
to look like.
So in February 2018,the government published
the National Planning Framework,
which I would argue is actually
(07:19):
one of the most ambitiousplanning frameworks
of any country in the world.
- The issue now is about implementation.
There's a range of historicaland economic reasons
why there's a challengeto density in Ireland,
and partly it's because ofthe history of development
and how Dublin expanded and many
of the other cities expanded.
There's no real historyof industrialization
(07:40):
in the city course, so whenthe city's expanded over time,
they expanded on the edge.
So suburbanization hasresulted in massive sprawl,
lots of employment ison the edge of the city.
And that really then creates a challenge
in terms of where peoplelive, trying to access
where they live fromwhere they're employed,
and that also creates big problems then
(08:01):
in terms of trying to movepeople around the city
and the dependence on cars and so on.
So what we have is a disconnectbetween where employment
is located and where housing is located,
which gives rise to thechallenges that we see.
- Pat Farrell also talksabout the current issues
of sprawl and car dependency in Ireland.
(08:22):
- Somebody I was speaking toearlier this morning mentioned
the fact that Dublin has 10drive time radio stations.
So that tells you somethingabout what is the primary mode
of transport for gettingin and out of Dublin.
- The average daily commutein Dublin is almost one hour,
making it one of the longest travel times
(08:42):
of any European capital.
- We don't have a well-developed
public transport infrastructure.
And again, there's a verystrong linkage between
that and the way our city has evolved.
The economics of publictransport in Dublin
are very difficult becausewe're a very low rise city,
and therefore you're putting
in place a transportinfrastructure to pull
(09:03):
through a very thinlypopulated urban centre.
And therefore, that presentsa lot of challenges.
Compact growth, 15-minutecities, and everything
that goes with that is the answer.
But again, as our report shows,there are lots of challenges
in trying to bring peoplealong with that conversation
(09:26):
and get them to accept thetrade-offs that are necessary
to achieve what we think isa very laudable ambition.
- As both Pat and Niamh point out,
Ireland's century-longpreference for low rise,
car-centric development hascreated serious barriers
for realising today's15-minute city vision.
In studying the population densities
(09:48):
of the five Irish cities, wediscovered that in Dublin,
only two in five people live in an area
with enough residents
to be able to feasibly meetthe 15-minute city criteria.
While for the four othercities, it's only 1 in 10.
Incidentally, most of theseareas predate the 20th century
(10:09):
when walking was still theprimary mode of transportation.
- These numbers also mirror the results
of a population surveyHassell conducted via YouGov.
The survey reached morethan 1,000 Irish adults.
By asking people abouttheir current access levels,
we learned that only 10% ofthe Irish population currently
(10:32):
feel that they can walk
to all the essential amenitieswithin 15 minutes or less.
Reflecting Niamh's observations,
workplaces tend to be theleast accessible amenity,
while grocery shops andpublic transport stops are
in higher supply.
When asked about the ideal situation,
1 in 3 people would like to be
(10:54):
within a 15-minute walking radius
of every single type ofamenity that we listed.
While 33% may not soundlike a landslide victory
for the 15-minute city concept,
it still triple the numberof today's situation
and an impressive resultconsidering that some people
might not have any interestin accessing, for example,
(11:17):
workplaces or educational institutions,
or some people are also limited
in their ability to walk altogether.
- The quality of life for people living
in cities in Ireland is quite variable.
For example, in Dublin,many people can't afford
to live close to their employment,
so they're commuting very long distances,
and it means their quality of life
is really negatively impacted by that.
(11:39):
Whereas if you look atsome of the smaller cities,
for example, Waterford,
where there's an opportunityand where there are more people
living close to home,
you see that there isless of a negative impact.
But also the natural amenities.
If we think of Cork Harbour for example,
the natural amenities aroundCork are really playing
into much better qualityof life livability
(11:59):
and experience for people livingcloser to the city centre.
- So I think it really dependson the city in Ireland,
and it's really down to how close you are
to your employment, to youramenities, to natural amenities,
to your shops, to yourgrocery stores, and so on.
So the greater distancesyou have to travel
for those things, the lowerquality of life, if you like.
(12:21):
They're less livable places.
- At this point, you might be wondering
why we keep talkingabout issues of transport
and density when the 15-minutecity is supposed to be
about gaining access to agreater variety of amenities
within a local neighbourhood.
Just for those of youout there who are new
to urban planning,
(12:42):
here's the short version ofhow these factors are related.
Imagine living in aplace where you have five
to six different destinations close by,
such as a park, a grocery shop, a library,
a café, a dentist, and maybe a nursery.
Let's say that you'd like to be able
to walk to each of these destinations
(13:03):
within a quarter of anhour, and that you walk
at an average speed offive kilometres per hour.
In effect, each destinationwould have to be
within a 1. 25-kilometerradius from your home.
- Each of these places in turnneed visitors and customers,
(13:24):
other people who are ableto reach them by foot
as part of their daily comings and goings.
In order for most businesses to survive,
they need quite a few visitors every day.
Even a library needs a minimum footfall
just as a school needs pupils.
If there's not enough peoplewithin a walking distance,
(13:44):
then a destinationessentially has two choices.
It can either close up shop orit can try to attract people
who are coming from furtheraway, such as by car.
And that might be all right,
except now you have more traffic
on the roads and you havemore areas for parking,
which makes the environmentless conducive to walking
(14:07):
and takes away spacethat could have been used
for homes or parks orother types of amenities.
- Global studies findthat a population density
of between 5,000 to 25,000people per square kilometre
or 50 to 250 people per hectare is ideal
for making sure that thereare enough people around
(14:30):
to sustain the local economyand the local amenities
within a primarily walkable environment.
These are the types ofdensities that we find in places
like Central Copenhagenand Vienna and Paris.
Additionally, thesetypes of places benefit
from being able tooperate more sustainably
with a lower carbon footprint per capita.
(14:52):
- Our cities are fundamentally sustainable
if they're built properly.
There is a sense out therethat cities are highly
unsustainable becausethere's lots of people there.
There's buildingsemitting energy and so on.
But actually, citiesare where the solution
to the climate crisis is going to be found
because they provide opportunities
(15:12):
because of higher density living,
people living closer together,
to be able to provide publictransport and make it viable
to actually give peopleoptions other than jumping
in a car to get from A to B.
So cities, the packingof people close together
in quality environmentsis actually central
(15:33):
to addressing some of theissues that emerge from sprawl,
from pollution that comesfrom that, and so on.
- At the moment, noneof the Irish cities meet
the overall density levelsrequired to provide amenities
within a 15-minute walkof most people's homes.
There's simply too muchspace between people
and too many cars on the roads.
(15:56):
- The struggle in Irelandaround adopting density,
I think, is something that'sgone on for quite a long time,
but it's something thatreally will have to stop soon.
- The government's compactgrowth agenda clearly signals
a change in the directionof adding more homes
where people already areinstead of on new sites
that expand the footprint of the city.
(16:17):
But the actual route toimplementation is not
just about adjustingnumbers, but very much
about changing hearts and minds too.
- If you're talking aboutsignificant change in urban areas,
which is what you are lookingat with compact growth,
then we need to have earlyconversations with people
about the benefits and the trade-offs
as well as the challenges.
(16:38):
Now, in Ireland, we're usedto having a lot of space,
a front garden, a back garden.
With compact growth,we're not just talking
about behavioural change,
but there's also a change in expectations.
Ireland hasn't reallyexperienced large scale quality
urban planning of thekind that's associated
with successful 15-minute city strategies.
(16:58):
We need to do more work on that,
and there are alreadygood examples emerging.
I think as people see more andmore of those good examples
and actually live inthem and experience them,
then people will buy moreand more into the concept.
- The question now is are thecitizens of Waterford, Galway,
Limerick, Cork, and Dublinready to embrace everything
(17:21):
that would be required of them
to make the 15-minute city a reality?
As Pat and Niamh explained,the chief challenge
to the 15-minute city concept in Ireland
has to do with attractingmore residents to settle
within existing urban areaspaired with increasing walking,
cycling, and public transport use,
(17:43):
and providing the supporting amenities.
- Without that densificationof our cities and towns,
we will never get to the 15-minute concept
that we aspire to.
I've heard some people say,"Well, you can't densify
because the services aren't there,
that the local GP does not exist,
that there is not the amenitiesto sustain more density
(18:05):
in these urban situations."
But that is the chicken and egg conundrum.
The reality is as soonas you bring the density,
the services will come.
- That's Brian Moran again,the senior managing director
in the development group Hines,
who are also members ofIrish Institutional Property.
Private developers like Hinesare some of the key players
(18:26):
required to meet the goals set out
by the government'sNational Planning Framework.
- In recent years, we'vehad significant new guidance
that is mandatory from central government
requiring developers,especially on larger sites
in regeneration, brownfield infill sites
to where they have scale totackle the density challenge
(18:46):
and come up with good designthat is much higher density
than previously would'vebeen done in Ireland.
- Brian's also seeing theopportunity to regenerate
the Irish cities arounda 15-minute city idea
as a chance to alignsocial, environmental,
and economic ambitions.
- Even in Dublin Cityover the next 20 years,
(19:08):
we probably have to grow our housing stock
by about another 30%.
That's very significant.
That cannot happen by urban sprawl.
We've already stretched thecity to as far as we should,
and we've got to look atthe balance being infilled,
brownfield development to achieve that.
That's a phenomenalinvestment opportunity,
(19:28):
no question about it.
And I think one of thechallenges as a small country
is we actually have toimport a lot of the capital
to do that work.
Previously, Irish people invested locally.
That led to a very big bubble.
I think people were awareof the crash in 2008, 2009,
where we kept investing in ourselves
and driving the prices up.
(19:50):
That's stopped.
There's a lot of regulation around that,
but also many Irish investorsnow diversify globally.
So we actually need tobring investment in,
and about 80% of thecapital we need to build
are the residentialdevelopment going forward
and now will have to be imported.
- Many international investors
in particular, theinstitutional investors,
are only going to invest wherethere's a strong ESG focus.
(20:14):
They've got to know that their investments
are going into sustainable development.
Building non-sustainable development
is not going to be something
that their boards willsign off going forward.
So we have to have a good debate here
around the 15-minute city, sustainability,
and creating investment opportunities
that match the aspirations of investors.
(20:34):
- At the moment, Hineshave more than $3.7 billion
worth of assets underdevelopment in Ireland.
As a developer, Brian canclearly see the benefits
of the compact growth agendaand the 15-minute city idea,
and he's keen to seeboth concepts realised
over the coming decades.
(20:55):
But in working on large scale projects
all around the country, healso has a first line view
of the barriers holding these projects up.
- We have a very large siteof the South Circular Road,
which is if for those peoplewho don't know Dublin,
is on the CBD edge.
So you're talking 10minutes cycle distance
to the big employment hubs,
(21:16):
maybe 20 minutes walk soa perfect place to live
but not have to useanything other than walking
and cycling to get to work.
It's got existing urbanvillages right beside it.
By the way, some of them are struggling
because there isn't thedensity of people there,
but that would benefit from
a significant additional population.
- We're under an obligation
(21:36):
in terms of meeting nationalguidelines around density
to build so that it's a compliment
to the existing lower densities.
We have to have largesetbacks so the buildings
around the edge of thesite which need to respect
the existing communities are only two,
three stories growing up, stepby step, four, five stories.
But by the time we get tothe centre of the site,
which is 100, 150 metres awayfrom any existing housing,
(22:01):
we need to be at 15, 16 stories.
And therefore, we haveto use great architects
who are well able to do replace making,
understand daylight shadowing,
public space to get that right.
And we are definitely having
a real challenge gettingprojects like that
through the planning system
because of the backlash on height.
(22:22):
I think if you sit down with people,
they're not arguing about,"Great to have new people,
great to have new architecture,let's get more housing in.
Height, we just don't want height."
- What Brian is coming up againstis the negative perception
of density and heightthat prevails in Ireland
despite the social, economic,and environmental benefits
(22:42):
that such places might bring.
There's also the perceptionthat density has to be delivered
alongside tall buildings,which one only has to look
to Copenhagen or Paristo see as a fallacy.
Here's Niamh again explaining
where people's apprehensionmight be coming from.
- For people who aren't sureabout a change in density
(23:03):
in their cities, I cancompletely understand that
because we have had a veryhistorical negative, I suppose,
reaction to high rise, highdensity living in Ireland.
We have very few good examples.
So what I would say is thatit's not necessarily the idea
of higher density livingthat's the problem,
(23:23):
but it's how it has been done in the past.
So what we need to think about
is what are the benefits ofthis higher density living?
What can we actually achieve
by bringing places closer together?
And what are the benefitsfor having everything
in close location, timesavings, better air quality,
better access to amenities, and generally
(23:45):
just a better quality of life.
- Other cities in Europe haveevolved in a similar way,
but I think the coredifference between Ireland
and those other places is first of all,
we have a very differenthistorical background.
So I think Ireland has this very rural,
traditional, agrarian kind of identity.
So the idea of urban living is something
(24:07):
that's almost seen asbeing imported from abroad.
And I suppose Ireland hasalso, in the European context
it's quite rare, butIreland has actually got
a post-colonial history as the colonised
as opposed to the colonisers.
So many of our citiesare actually imports,
if you like, from other places.
So that sense of what an Irish city is
(24:28):
is very underdeveloped, I would say.
- In our population survey,
we found that only 14% ofthe Irish population overall
found a compact neighbourhood
to be a desirable place to live and work.
39% of people said that they desired
to live in a place that's more spread out.
(24:48):
Even so, 59% would stilllike their neighbourhood
to be primarily walkable,and 70% of people wish
to be within a 15-minutewalk of public transport.
It seems there's a disconnect
between the types oflifestyles people desire
and the types of builtenvironments we aspire to live in.
(25:09):
- Those words, dense, compact,
they are hugely threatening to people.
- Here's Ali Grehan, theDublin City architect.
- And they're very hardwords, compact, dense.
There's nothing in those wordsthat says quality of life,
livability, nothing.
There's nothing aboutthose words that says,
(25:29):
"We want you to have reallya positive experience
of how this place will be."
- Ali's remit is tofocus on the experience
and quality of the builtenvironment in Dublin
and to help the city be the best it can be
for its citizens and visitors.
- Instead, we use those wordsand people react negatively
to them because they don'tactually talk about livability
(25:52):
and quality of life andquality of experience
in the built environment,
and they don't talk abouthow people use spaces,
and they don't talkabout what people value
in places and spaces.
So I suppose the biggest challenge we face
in densifying Dublin is actually providing
all of the amenities thatare everything but the homes.
(26:13):
Of course, we have to provide the homes,
but if we want people toaccept those homes, apartments,
smaller homes, then they mighthave in this outer suburbs.
If we're going to getpeople to accept the idea
that it's good to live in asmaller home in the city centre,
we have to make sure that the experience
outside the front door
(26:34):
of their smaller home is really wonderful.
- I asked Ali how shethought the challenges
in Ireland would compareto other places in Europe.
- If a question is, areDubliners resistant to change?
I'd say, well, are policymakersresistant to change,
resistant to changing how we go
about our business of developing Dublin?
(26:54):
Are private developersresistant to change,
resistant to how they mightchange their perception
of what is a positive development?
Is it really positive for the community?
And of course, our community'sresistant to change
because they fear that changewill take something away.
- What Ali is talkingabout here is a pattern
(27:16):
that we see play out inmany cities around the world
that are trying toretrofit existing places
and infrastructure to more sustainable
and convenient models.
Private developers are required
to change their business models,policymakers are required
to change their goals and their messaging,
and citizens are requiredto change their lifestyles.
(27:38):
- Increasing density is a bigchallenge that needs everybody
involved to work together to appreciate
that everybody has to give alittle, Dublin City Council,
private developers, particularly
in large private developmentsthat private developers
have to do more to actuallyprovide additional amenity.
- Ideally, the outcome ofthis process will be positive
for all, but the road isfar from frictionless.
(28:02):
- Change is very hard for people,
and I think we're all accept that
that change needs to happen.
We maybe take the view that maybe
it's somebody else'sresponsibility to do the changing
and we can continue as we areto address climate change.
We've all got to takemassive steps towards
making better decisions abouthow we build and how we live.
(28:25):
I don't think Dublinersare any more resistant
to change than anywhere else.
In fact, I think whenit's put up to Dubliners,
they actually respond verycreatively to challenges
once they see the benefit.
I think there's a strongsense of community
and generosity in Dublin,and so when people see
(28:46):
that something's worth doingand it's going to be good,
positive for their neighboursand for themselves,
they will get behind it.
- Hearing from Pat Farrell,
CEO of Irish Institutional Property,
he's also hugely positiveabout the potential
of the 15-minute city ideato bring about the change
(29:06):
in mindset that Ireland needs.
- What excites me aboutit is that for those
that have experienced citiesthat are further along the path
on the concept of 15-minutecity, they get the benefits.
It is just a questionof getting that message
across to more and more people.
- The 15-minute City is verymuch a people-centered concept
(29:28):
designed to improve people'slives by offering them
greater levels of access and convenience,
but it's also a concept that comes
with massive environmentalbenefits which are perhaps
not as clear to people as they could be.
Only 15% of the Irish population believe
that compactness is a sustainable feature
(29:50):
of a neighbourhood, while37% think it's better
to spread out buildingsover larger areas of land.
- Basically, leadership is needed here
because the government hasactually ordained compact growth.
They've said that we needto get to better density
of population and within ourcities and prove the density,
(30:10):
but it's not clear thatpoliticians always accept
that there's a necessity tocommunicate that to people.
- The notion that a moreopen, honest dialogue
around what type of cities Ireland
should be developingis on everyone's mind.
- I think we have to try and understand
what we're about better and ask ourselves,
(30:31):
"Are we trying to engage with communities
in a co-creative process?
Are we actually trying to understand
why people are concerned about change?"
- I just think that weall need to face up to it,
and we need to have a mature,deliberative conversation,
(30:52):
discussion about whatkind of country we want,
what kind of cities we want in particular,
and then come to a conclusion
as to how we're going tocollectively go forward.
- It's clear that wewon't be able to resolve
the Irish cities' identitycrisis in a single conversation,
but hopefully we've been ableto bring some of the benefits
(31:15):
and challenges of the 15-minutecity concept into light.
If anything, this conceptseems to be a more productive
and captivating starting pointfor everyone with a decided
and human perspective
that we can all relate to and understand.
- I want to thank Niamh Moore Cherry
(31:35):
from University College Dublin,
Ali Grehan from Dublin City Council,
Pat Farrell from IrishInstitutional Property,
and Brian Moran from Hines RealEstate for their insightful
and open contributions to this episode.
Keep an ear out for futureepisodes that will explore more
(31:55):
on 15-minute cities witha global perspective,
looking into our surveyresults from the UK, Australia,
and the US.
If you are enjoying theHassell Talks podcast
or have any thoughts you'd like to share,
please leave a review anddon't forget you can find
more episodes andinformation about our work
and insights hassellstudio.com.
(32:18):
This episode was producedby Prue Vincent and myself
with support from One Fine Play.
Thanks for listening.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.