July 16, 2025 • 18 mins
Immigration detention is supposed to be civil not punishment.
But across the U.S., immigrants are being held in jail-like conditions under a patchwork of outdated and inconsistent standards, many without ever being charged with a crime.
In this episode, Joa pulls back the curtain on a system designed to look like bureaucracy but feel like incarceration. We explore how ICE contracts with private prisons and local jails, how per-bed payments create financial incentives to detain more people, and why detainees experience drastically different treatment depending on where they're held.
We also trace the language and policies that make it easy to ignore this injustice and who profits from our silence.
What You’ll Learn
- Why ICE detention isn’t supposed to be punitive—but often is
- What the PBNDS and NDS standards are, and why they matter
- How local governments and corporations profit from detaining immigrants
- The role of dehumanizing language in public apathy
- Why this system isn’t broken—it’s working exactly as intended
Resources Mentioned
- ICE Detention Standards Overview (official)
- Appendix: ICE Detention Facilities & Assigned Standards
- DHS Office of Inspector General Report on Oversight Failures
- American Bar Association Detention Guide for Practitioners
- “Cultish” by Amanda Montell – on groupthink, misinformation, and language as power
Call to Action
- Share this episode with someone who thinks immigration detention is just “processing.”
- Ask your local representatives if your county jail has a contract with ICE (search: IGSA).
- Support organizations working to end immigration detention and expose profit motives, like Detention Watch Network, Freedom for Immigrants, and ACLU Immigrants' Rights Project.
Connect With Me
Instagram & Threads: @haveacupofjohanny
TikTok: @acupofjo_hanny
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh we could, we could fly.
Welcome back to have a Cup ofJohnny.
This season isn't abouthustling harder.
It's about coming home toyourself, to your voice, to your
breath, to the quiet truth thatyou're still here and you're
not starting over.
You're starting again.
(00:21):
This is your space to reflect,reset and remember who we tell
you.
So pour your cafecito and let'sbegin.
In this episode, you will hearme talk about several acronyms,
so I'm going to use this bit ofrecording right here to let you
(00:45):
know what the various acronymsmean.
Ice is Immigration and CustomsEnforcement.
It's a federal agency under theDepartment of Homeland Security
responsible for immigrationenforcement, including detention
and deportation.
Pdnds Performance-BasedNational Detention Standards
(01:07):
these are ICE's mostcomprehensive standards.
They're supposed to ensurehumane treatment and detention,
covering medical care, mentalhealth services, recreation,
legal access and more.
Note that not all facilitiesfollow these and ICE doesn't
enforce them consistently.
Nds National DetentionStandards these are older, more
(01:30):
basic standards ICE created wayback in 2000 and updated in 2019
.
They have fewer protections andare often used in jails and
facilities that aren't set upfor long-term or humane care.
Think of NDS as the minimum andPBNDS as what should be
happening.
(01:51):
Igsa Intergovernmental ServiceAgreement a contract between ICE
and a local jail or governmentto hold immigrants in detention.
Ice pays these jails perdetainee per day, sometimes even
if beds are empty.
Digsa D-I-G-S-A DedicatedIntergovernmental Service
(02:14):
Agreement, similar to an IGSA,as I noted before, but the
facility only houses ICEdetainees.
These are often ran by privateprison corporations.
Cdf contract detention facilitya privately owned and operated
facility that ICE contracts withdirectly.
(02:35):
These are for profit centersrun by companies like CoreCivic
or GEO Group.
Spc Service Processing Center,a facility owned by the federal
government and operated by ICE,often in partnership with
private contractors.
These are usually larger andhandle longer-term cases.
(02:58):
Usmsiga US Marshals ServiceIntergovernmental Agreement.
Ice sometimes rent bed spacesin jails that are already
contracted with the US MarshalsService.
These places don't follow ICEstandards at all.
They follow Marshall's rules,which are often more punitive,
(03:19):
and this is where we getconfused sometimes whether it's
a detention or it's animprisonment.
Frs Family ResidentialStandards Standards designed
specifically for detentioncenters that hold parents with
children.
These are different from theones used for adults detained
alone.
They're not supposed to be inprison.
(03:40):
They haven't been convicted ofa crime.
Be in prison.
They haven't been convicted ofa crime.
They're waiting on hearings onpapers, on decisions that will
shape the rest of their lives.
But immigration detention, itdoesn't feel like waiting, it
feels like punishment, isolation, cold uniforms, early wake-ups,
(04:03):
controlled movement, colduniforms, early wake-ups,
controlled movement, solitaryconfinement.
And while we argue about whodeserves to be here, someone is
making money off the debate.
This is have a Cup of Johnny,and today's episode we're going
to change it up.
(04:23):
It's called Invisible Prisons.
How we Let this Happen, becausethis system didn't break.
It was built like this.
I started thinking this morningbefore coming over here.
I kept seeing things aboutalligator alcatraz quite a lot
popping up on my feed and I waslike and then I also saw a lot
(04:45):
of commentary about it, and, asI do, I'd rather just check and
do research and once again godown the rabbit hole because I
want to know what is real, whatis not and what I found.
I was like well, let me shareit with my vasitos, let me share
it with the listeners, right?
(05:07):
So that's how this episode cameto be.
It's still debunkingimmigration, it's still under
the same focus as June and Julyhas been, but we're going to
specifically talk about thissystem of detention, almost like
incarceration.
(05:29):
And here's the part that alwaysshocks people, because you heard
me saying detention right, butit feels like incarceration.
And I've said this before in myTikTok videos and I've said it
here on the podcast as wellimmigration detention is a civil
, not a criminal matter.
(05:50):
That means that people held byICE aren't serving a sentence.
They haven't been convicted ofa crime.
Technically, they're not injail because they did something
wrong.
They're there because thegovernment says they need to
wait in custody.
But when you look inside an ICEdetention facility, what you'll
(06:13):
find is uniforms, lockdowns,solitary strip searches and
overcrowded cells.
You'll find people eatingdinner at 4 pm and going to bed
when a buzzer tells them.
You'll find women in orangejumpsuits who were picked up
after calling the police forhelp.
You'll find kids crying behinda plexiglass.
(06:35):
So what happened?
Ice doesn't build its ownfacilities.
Instead, it contracts withlocal jails and private prisons
and pays them per day, perperson.
It's detention, but it feelslike incarceration in private
(07:12):
prisons.
It's no wonder why detentionfeels and looks like
incarceration.
So when they rent punishmentinfrastructure, how can they
expect it to feel humane?
It doesn't.
If you were wondering Now, ifyou ask ICE about this, they'll
tell you we have standards, andthey do.
They have five different ones.
(07:32):
Actually, that's not a flex.
By the way.
If you know anything aboutstandards, you don't want to
have too many of them, right?
You want to have one standard,because when you have more than
one, then that's a lot ofloopholes that people can go
through.
So, instead of choosing one setof protections for all
detainees, ice lets everyfacility follow a different set
(07:54):
based on what's convenient forthem.
Some use PBNDS 2011, which isthe most protective.
Others still follow the NDS2000, which is a jail standard
from 25 years ago.
Many also use the NDS 2019,which actually rolled back
(08:17):
previous protections.
So if you land in a moderncenter, you might get decent
health care and access to legalcounsel.
If you land in a rural jail,you might get 15 minutes of
phone time a week and no mentalhealth support.
Same system, same agency,wildly different treatment.
(08:39):
But why, you may ask.
Well, because it's cheaper.
That's one of them.
Because no one's watching,that's another one.
And because when you'reinvisible, your rights are
negotiable.
That is something that youheard me talk about dehumanizing
language, but let's dig into.
(09:02):
Because is cheaper.
Let's follow the money for asecond here.
Ice pays local jails and privatecontractors on a per bed per
day basis.
I'm going to say that again Perbed per day basis.
That means every persondetained is a paycheck to that
(09:28):
local jail or private contractorEvery night they stay.
That's another check.
If beds are empty, somecounties still get paid anyways
because they negotiate aguaranteed minimums in their
contracts.
Yep, you heard that right.
They get paid for people whoaren't even there.
(09:51):
So you've seen this.
Now this is creating a system,an economy that is motivated by
A having detention facilitiesthere in their local government
because they may get paidminimums whether the beds are
filled or not, and it ismotivated by how many humans are
(10:15):
there and for how long as well,because they also get paid for
that.
So now you have a system thatrewards full facilities,
punishes, release and turnsdetainees into a profit centers.
And if you're wondering how itgot like this, just look at the
(10:40):
companies who benefit from them.
At the companies who benefitfrom them CoreCivic, geogroup.
They've spent millions lobbyingCongress to keep detention
growing and they've often builtin small towns where the only
jobs are corrections jobs andwhere they can hide these
(11:02):
detention facilities away and itbecomes an economy.
And once people depend on itfor income, they stop asking
questions about what's happeninginside.
And there it is, that silence.
Now you might be wondering whyhaven't we heard more about this
(11:26):
?
Why now?
Why hasn't been more outrage,especially before and let's be
honest, you heard me talk aboutthis Dehumanizing language has
done its job, but dehumanizinglanguage didn't start this year
or last year.
(11:46):
It has been ongoing.
Dehumanizing language it's anonpartisan thing.
It has always been here.
When you call someone illegal,when you say they broke the law,
even though it's a civil matter, when you describe children as
(12:06):
anchors hint, hint, last episodeyou create emotional distance
between yourself and that humanbeing.
So it's not that we're justfinding out about this now.
It's not that we were inoutrage before, but we are now.
It's that dehumanizing languagehas slowly but surely taken
(12:31):
over society and stripped themof empathy, slowly but surely.
And it doesn't help when youhave government officials, when
you have leadership that rewardsthat.
So it's a combination of thehumanizing language doing its
thing throughout all these years, all this time, and also having
(12:53):
leadership encourage it.
So, pertaining to thissituation, the result of that
dehumanizing language, itseffect and the encouragement of
the dehumanizing language isthat you strip away the truth of
who's really in these cagesBecause now you see them as
(13:16):
illegal, you see them ascriminals, you see them as
people that break the law, yousee them as anchors, when in
reality, the people that are inthose cages are a woman who fled
domestic violence, a teenagerwho aged out of DACA, a father
who missed a hearing because hecouldn't find a ride, a mother
(13:36):
separated from her baby at theborder, people who belong
somewhere, just not here,according to someone.
But dehumanizing language givesus permission not to care, not
to carry that burden of grief inour conscious.
(13:57):
Here's what gets me the most.
This entire system is framed asa public safety measure.
But I said this stats before inthis show and I'll say it again
70% of people in ICE custodyhave no criminal record at all.
I mean no criminal record.
And then of those who do, ofthat, 30%, most are civil
(14:24):
infractions, not criminal civilinfractions.
We're talking about expiredvisas, mischecked ins, not
violent crimes.
Expired visas, mischecked ins,but not violent crimes.
So if this isn't about safety,if this isn't about justice,
(14:50):
then what is it about?
Well, you heard me talk aboutwho gets paid.
It's about money, it's aboutcontrol and it's about keeping
people afraid to belong.
And here's what I want you totake away from this episode is
(15:15):
that this system didn't fail.
It is functioning exactly howit was designed.
It was designed to use jailinfrastructure to hold people
without calling it a prison.
That's a loophole.
Let different facilities followdifferent standards so no one
knows what to expect.
That's another loophole.
(15:35):
Incentivize detention with perbed payments and guaranteed
minimums Ooh, that's amotivation.
Call it civil but make itcriminal and profit off of the
confusion.
But make it criminal and profitoff of the confusion and rely
on language that makes thepublic stop seeing people as
(15:56):
people.
That's the system, so it's notbroken.
It is working exactly as it wasintended until we break it open
.
All right, if this episode moved, you do one thing today Share
(16:17):
with someone who still thinksimmigration detention is just
holding.
Ask your local officials ifyour county has an IGSA contract
with ICE.
Support local abolition anddecarceration efforts, or just
ask the question who gets to besafe and who profits when others
don't?
In the show notes, I'll link toa map of ICE detention
(16:40):
facilities and their assignedstandards so that way you know.
There is a list out there thatsays the name of the detention
facilities, the state orlocation of where they are, as
well as what standard theyfollow, a breakdown of how the
per bed contracts workorganizations that are actively
fighting detention, profiteering.
And next week we will dig intoanother myth of just get in line
(17:06):
and why that line doesn't existfor most immigrants.
Until then, keep your heart open, please.
They're trying so hard to haveyou close your heart.
Keep your research sharp andyour empathy loud.
Now is the time to researcheverything that you see pass
(17:27):
through your feet.
Now is the time.
Now is the time to look atthings outside of your circle,
so that way you can get a gaugeon the truth, so that way you
know exactly what is going on,because right now there's a lot
of false things and false factsbeing pushed as truth out there,
(17:48):
and it's very important for usto get caught up on what is
really true.
And thank you once again forhaving a cup with me and I hope
that you come back nextWednesday for another episode.
Bye, if today's episode spoketo you, share with somebody
who's finding their way back tooto you, share with somebody
(18:10):
who's finding their way back too.
And if you haven't yet, visithaveacupofjoanniecom for more
stories, blog posts and the bitsthat started it all.
Thank you for being here.
Until next time, be soft, bebold and always have a cup of
joannie.
Oh we could, we could fly.
Welcome back to have a Cup ofJohnny.
This season isn't abouthustling harder.
It's about coming home toyourself, to your voice, to your
breath, to the quiet truth thatyou're still here and you're
not starting over.
You're starting again.
(00:21):
This is your space to reflect,reset and remember who we tell
you.
So pour your cafecito and let'sbegin.
In this episode, you will hearme talk about several acronyms,
so I'm going to use this bit ofrecording right here to let you
(00:45):
know what the various acronymsmean.
Ice is Immigration and CustomsEnforcement.
It's a federal agency under theDepartment of Homeland Security
responsible for immigrationenforcement, including detention
and deportation.
Pdnds Performance-BasedNational Detention Standards
(01:07):
these are ICE's mostcomprehensive standards.
They're supposed to ensurehumane treatment and detention,
covering medical care, mentalhealth services, recreation,
legal access and more.
Note that not all facilitiesfollow these and ICE doesn't
enforce them consistently.
Nds National DetentionStandards these are older, more
(01:30):
basic standards ICE created wayback in 2000 and updated in 2019
.
They have fewer protections andare often used in jails and
facilities that aren't set upfor long-term or humane care.
Think of NDS as the minimum andPBNDS as what should be
happening.
(01:51):
Igsa Intergovernmental ServiceAgreement a contract between ICE
and a local jail or governmentto hold immigrants in detention.
Ice pays these jails perdetainee per day, sometimes even
if beds are empty.
Digsa D-I-G-S-A DedicatedIntergovernmental Service
(02:14):
Agreement, similar to an IGSA,as I noted before, but the
facility only houses ICEdetainees.
These are often ran by privateprison corporations.
Cdf contract detention facilitya privately owned and operated
facility that ICE contracts withdirectly.
(02:35):
These are for profit centersrun by companies like CoreCivic
or GEO Group.
Spc Service Processing Center,a facility owned by the federal
government and operated by ICE,often in partnership with
private contractors.
These are usually larger andhandle longer-term cases.
(02:58):
Usmsiga US Marshals ServiceIntergovernmental Agreement.
Ice sometimes rent bed spacesin jails that are already
contracted with the US MarshalsService.
These places don't follow ICEstandards at all.
They follow Marshall's rules,which are often more punitive,
(03:19):
and this is where we getconfused sometimes whether it's
a detention or it's animprisonment.
Frs Family ResidentialStandards Standards designed
specifically for detentioncenters that hold parents with
children.
These are different from theones used for adults detained
alone.
They're not supposed to be inprison.
(03:40):
They haven't been convicted ofa crime.
Be in prison.
They haven't been convicted ofa crime.
They're waiting on hearings onpapers, on decisions that will
shape the rest of their lives.
But immigration detention, itdoesn't feel like waiting, it
feels like punishment, isolation, cold uniforms, early wake-ups,
(04:03):
controlled movement, colduniforms, early wake-ups,
controlled movement, solitaryconfinement.
And while we argue about whodeserves to be here, someone is
making money off the debate.
This is have a Cup of Johnny,and today's episode we're going
to change it up.
(04:23):
It's called Invisible Prisons.
How we Let this Happen, becausethis system didn't break.
It was built like this.
I started thinking this morningbefore coming over here.
I kept seeing things aboutalligator alcatraz quite a lot
popping up on my feed and I waslike and then I also saw a lot
(04:45):
of commentary about it, and, asI do, I'd rather just check and
do research and once again godown the rabbit hole because I
want to know what is real, whatis not and what I found.
I was like well, let me shareit with my vasitos, let me share
it with the listeners, right?
(05:07):
So that's how this episode cameto be.
It's still debunkingimmigration, it's still under
the same focus as June and Julyhas been, but we're going to
specifically talk about thissystem of detention, almost like
incarceration.
(05:29):
And here's the part that alwaysshocks people, because you heard
me saying detention right, butit feels like incarceration.
And I've said this before in myTikTok videos and I've said it
here on the podcast as wellimmigration detention is a civil
, not a criminal matter.
(05:50):
That means that people held byICE aren't serving a sentence.
They haven't been convicted ofa crime.
Technically, they're not injail because they did something
wrong.
They're there because thegovernment says they need to
wait in custody.
But when you look inside an ICEdetention facility, what you'll
(06:13):
find is uniforms, lockdowns,solitary strip searches and
overcrowded cells.
You'll find people eatingdinner at 4 pm and going to bed
when a buzzer tells them.
You'll find women in orangejumpsuits who were picked up
after calling the police forhelp.
You'll find kids crying behinda plexiglass.
(06:35):
So what happened?
Ice doesn't build its ownfacilities.
Instead, it contracts withlocal jails and private prisons
and pays them per day, perperson.
It's detention, but it feelslike incarceration in private
(07:12):
prisons.
It's no wonder why detentionfeels and looks like
incarceration.
So when they rent punishmentinfrastructure, how can they
expect it to feel humane?
It doesn't.
If you were wondering Now, ifyou ask ICE about this, they'll
tell you we have standards, andthey do.
They have five different ones.
(07:32):
Actually, that's not a flex.
By the way.
If you know anything aboutstandards, you don't want to
have too many of them, right?
You want to have one standard,because when you have more than
one, then that's a lot ofloopholes that people can go
through.
So, instead of choosing one setof protections for all
detainees, ice lets everyfacility follow a different set
(07:54):
based on what's convenient forthem.
Some use PBNDS 2011, which isthe most protective.
Others still follow the NDS2000, which is a jail standard
from 25 years ago.
Many also use the NDS 2019,which actually rolled back
(08:17):
previous protections.
So if you land in a moderncenter, you might get decent
health care and access to legalcounsel.
If you land in a rural jail,you might get 15 minutes of
phone time a week and no mentalhealth support.
Same system, same agency,wildly different treatment.
(08:39):
But why, you may ask.
Well, because it's cheaper.
That's one of them.
Because no one's watching,that's another one.
And because when you'reinvisible, your rights are
negotiable.
That is something that youheard me talk about dehumanizing
language, but let's dig into.
(09:02):
Because is cheaper.
Let's follow the money for asecond here.
Ice pays local jails and privatecontractors on a per bed per
day basis.
I'm going to say that again Perbed per day basis.
That means every persondetained is a paycheck to that
(09:28):
local jail or private contractorEvery night they stay.
That's another check.
If beds are empty, somecounties still get paid anyways
because they negotiate aguaranteed minimums in their
contracts.
Yep, you heard that right.
They get paid for people whoaren't even there.
(09:51):
So you've seen this.
Now this is creating a system,an economy that is motivated by
A having detention facilitiesthere in their local government
because they may get paidminimums whether the beds are
filled or not, and it ismotivated by how many humans are
(10:15):
there and for how long as well,because they also get paid for
that.
So now you have a system thatrewards full facilities,
punishes, release and turnsdetainees into a profit centers.
And if you're wondering how itgot like this, just look at the
(10:40):
companies who benefit from them.
At the companies who benefitfrom them CoreCivic, geogroup.
They've spent millions lobbyingCongress to keep detention
growing and they've often builtin small towns where the only
jobs are corrections jobs andwhere they can hide these
(11:02):
detention facilities away and itbecomes an economy.
And once people depend on itfor income, they stop asking
questions about what's happeninginside.
And there it is, that silence.
Now you might be wondering whyhaven't we heard more about this
(11:26):
?
Why now?
Why hasn't been more outrage,especially before and let's be
honest, you heard me talk aboutthis Dehumanizing language has
done its job, but dehumanizinglanguage didn't start this year
or last year.
(11:46):
It has been ongoing.
Dehumanizing language it's anonpartisan thing.
It has always been here.
When you call someone illegal,when you say they broke the law,
even though it's a civil matter, when you describe children as
(12:06):
anchors hint, hint, last episodeyou create emotional distance
between yourself and that humanbeing.
So it's not that we're justfinding out about this now.
It's not that we were inoutrage before, but we are now.
It's that dehumanizing languagehas slowly but surely taken
(12:31):
over society and stripped themof empathy, slowly but surely.
And it doesn't help when youhave government officials, when
you have leadership that rewardsthat.
So it's a combination of thehumanizing language doing its
thing throughout all these years, all this time, and also having
(12:53):
leadership encourage it.
So, pertaining to thissituation, the result of that
dehumanizing language, itseffect and the encouragement of
the dehumanizing language isthat you strip away the truth of
who's really in these cagesBecause now you see them as
(13:16):
illegal, you see them ascriminals, you see them as
people that break the law, yousee them as anchors, when in
reality, the people that are inthose cages are a woman who fled
domestic violence, a teenagerwho aged out of DACA, a father
who missed a hearing because hecouldn't find a ride, a mother
(13:36):
separated from her baby at theborder, people who belong
somewhere, just not here,according to someone.
But dehumanizing language givesus permission not to care, not
to carry that burden of grief inour conscious.
(13:57):
Here's what gets me the most.
This entire system is framed asa public safety measure.
But I said this stats before inthis show and I'll say it again
70% of people in ICE custodyhave no criminal record at all.
I mean no criminal record.
And then of those who do, ofthat, 30%, most are civil
(14:24):
infractions, not criminal civilinfractions.
We're talking about expiredvisas, mischecked ins, not
violent crimes.
Expired visas, mischecked ins,but not violent crimes.
So if this isn't about safety,if this isn't about justice,
(14:50):
then what is it about?
Well, you heard me talk aboutwho gets paid.
It's about money, it's aboutcontrol and it's about keeping
people afraid to belong.
And here's what I want you totake away from this episode is
(15:15):
that this system didn't fail.
It is functioning exactly howit was designed.
It was designed to use jailinfrastructure to hold people
without calling it a prison.
That's a loophole.
Let different facilities followdifferent standards so no one
knows what to expect.
That's another loophole.
(15:35):
Incentivize detention with perbed payments and guaranteed
minimums Ooh, that's amotivation.
Call it civil but make itcriminal and profit off of the
confusion.
But make it criminal and profitoff of the confusion and rely
on language that makes thepublic stop seeing people as
(15:56):
people.
That's the system, so it's notbroken.
It is working exactly as it wasintended until we break it open
.
All right, if this episode moved, you do one thing today Share
(16:17):
with someone who still thinksimmigration detention is just
holding.
Ask your local officials ifyour county has an IGSA contract
with ICE.
Support local abolition anddecarceration efforts, or just
ask the question who gets to besafe and who profits when others
don't?
In the show notes, I'll link toa map of ICE detention
(16:40):
facilities and their assignedstandards so that way you know.
There is a list out there thatsays the name of the detention
facilities, the state orlocation of where they are, as
well as what standard theyfollow, a breakdown of how the
per bed contracts workorganizations that are actively
fighting detention, profiteering.
And next week we will dig intoanother myth of just get in line
(17:06):
and why that line doesn't existfor most immigrants.
Until then, keep your heart open, please.
They're trying so hard to haveyou close your heart.
Keep your research sharp andyour empathy loud.
Now is the time to researcheverything that you see pass
(17:27):
through your feet.
Now is the time.
Now is the time to look atthings outside of your circle,
so that way you can get a gaugeon the truth, so that way you
know exactly what is going on,because right now there's a lot
of false things and false factsbeing pushed as truth out there,
(17:48):
and it's very important for usto get caught up on what is
really true.
And thank you once again forhaving a cup with me and I hope
that you come back nextWednesday for another episode.
Bye, if today's episode spoketo you, share with somebody
who's finding their way back tooto you, share with somebody
(18:10):
who's finding their way back too.
And if you haven't yet, visithaveacupofjoanniecom for more
stories, blog posts and the bitsthat started it all.
Thank you for being here.
Until next time, be soft, bebold and always have a cup of
joannie.
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