June 18, 2025 • 30 mins
The words we speak reveal the fears we carry. When fellow Latinos say "I did it the legal way" or "they're not like us," what's really happening beneath these statements? This raw, unflinching exploration of internalized anti-immigrant attitudes within Latino communities pulls back the curtain on our community's most uncomfortable truth: sometimes we become the very border patrol we claim to resist.
Drawing from my personal immigration journey that spanned nearly a decade, I share how the process separated my family for years while my grandmother raised me in my parents' absence. This wasn't by choice but by circumstance – a reality many immigrants face regardless of their documentation status. The immigration system isn't simply about filling out forms; it's years of paperwork, changing policies, financial strain, and emotional tolls spread across entire families.
Most revealing is the myth that perfect assimilation will shield us from discrimination. No matter how flawlessly we speak English or how "American" we become, those who view us as "other" will always see us that way. This proximity to whiteness offers no real protection – it's a constant exhausting audition that requires cutting off essential parts of ourselves. When we echo border logic and enforcement rhetoric, we become complicit in our own oppression through what I call "pick-me patriotism."
If your family came here "the legal way," I challenge you to use that privilege to advocate rather than distance yourself from others. Question who taught you that following rules would protect you, and what they feared. Remember that what harms one immigrant ultimately harms us all – we are interconnected beyond artificial boundaries.
This conversation might make you uncomfortable, but that discomfort signals growth. Pass this episode to your tía, your primo, your coworkers, and let's dismantle the walls built not just around us, but within us. Together, we can remember who we truly are.
If today’s episode hit you in the chest the way it hit me, don’t just walk away—walk toward something that reflects you.
Subscribe to the podcast, hit that YouTube channel for the behind-the-scenes, and if you’re ready to read a story about what it really means to come home to yourself—
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https://haveacupofjohanny.com/product/the-ordinary-bruja-book-one-of-las-cerradoras-series-j-e-ortega/
It’s about a Dominican-American bruja who’s been running from herself her whole life until ancestral magic, generational wounds, and a haunted-ass hill force her to face the truth.
If you’ve ever felt “too much,” “not enough,” or like you don’t fit anywhere, you’re exactly who this story was written for.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh we could, we could fly.
Welcome back to have a Cup ofJohnny.
This season isn't abouthustling harder.
It's about coming home toyourself, to your voice, to your
breath, to the quiet truth thatyou're still here and you're
not starting over.
You're starting again.
(00:21):
This is your space to reflect,reset and remember who we tell
you.
So pour your cafecito and let'sbegin the phrase.
I did it.
The legal way is an afflux.
(00:42):
Legal way is an afflux.
It's actually a warning, a signthat whiteness has gotten too
close to the heart.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to have a Cup of Joannie.
(01:02):
Podcast.
This is episode three of theseries I didn't plan to do but
had to do, because the world isheavy and so much of that
heaviness starts in how we talk,how we think and what we
internalize.
Today we're diving into one ofthe most uncomfortable truths
I've had to sit with, truthsI've had to sit with, and that
(01:24):
is that some of the most harmfulanti-immigrant language it
comes from inside our owncommunities.
Have you all ever heard or seenin social media these videos of
Latino creators saying theworst enemy a Latino can have is
(01:47):
not a gringo, it's anotherLatino.
So this episode is calledSelf-Hating Latinos and the
Internalized Logic of Borders.
And I already know this isgoing to ruffle some feathers.
But here we are, that's okay.
Ruffle some feathers, but herewe are, that's okay, because
(02:10):
sometimes feathers need to beruffled if they've been
smoothing over injustice.
So let's begin.
Let me say this up front, though.
I've heard it too many times.
And here comes these phrasesJust imagine me doing the
quotation marks.
Well, I did it the right way.
My parents came here legally.
They're not like us, they'recriminals.
(02:30):
If they just assimilated better, they'd be fine.
Every time I hear these phrases, I don't hear pride, I hear
fear.
Fear that if we stand too closeto the wrong kind of immigrant,
we'll be seen that way too.
It's like we've become infected.
(02:53):
So we distance ourselves, wemoralize borders and we worship
assimilation like it's oursalvation.
So let's break it down right,because it's bigger than just a
one-liner.
When someone said I did it thelegal way quote, unquote what
(03:14):
they're really saying is let mebreak it down to you.
I suffered and I want others tosuffer too.
This is very close to thepeople that say I paid all my
student loans.
I don't want anybody else tohave their student loans
forgiven and I'm like what, what?
(03:35):
I even got on social media.
I was like I paid all mystudent loans, like legit, pay
them.
It took me years, but I paidthem.
And you know what?
I would be so happy if otherstudents get their student loans
wiped off, forgiven, becausethat will make it better for
(03:56):
them.
You know, it's like a parentsaid well, I suffered, I got out
of the house at 16, 17, 18.
I got out of the house at 16,17, 18.
Therefore, my kid is going todo the same and I'm like what
I'm like.
Why am I going to let the nextgeneration suffer because I
suffered?
We should be making thingsbetter, evolving, right,
(04:21):
learning, not allowing the nextgeneration to suffer the same
kind of trauma that we had.
Their trauma should be evolvedtrauma, right, it should be way
beyond what we suffered.
But when you say that, when youhear that, even if it's not you
saying it, and you hear that,just know that that is stemming
(04:50):
from fear and from selfishnessas well, because you want
somebody to suffer just like you.
And I usually don't talk aboutmy immigration story because
it's like, it's like very normal, right, it's like the
immigration story of a lot ofpeople and I never found it
unique or anything like that,but in the time that we're in
now I feel like I need to talkabout it.
(05:11):
So the entire reason why mygrandma raised me since I can
remember like I don't have amemory of my parents growing up
I didn't know my parents growingup.
I didn't meet my parents untilI came to the United States.
(05:31):
Why is that?
Because they had to leave.
Because they got their papersbefore me and it took almost 10
years.
For my sister and I to be ableto get papers after they left
Took 10 years and a lot of moneythat I didn't even comprehend
(05:52):
at that time.
But we were lucky that we hadthe money, we had the resources
and my mom had the family.
She had her mom, my grandmotherthat could step up and do that.
But for my grandmother thatcould step up and do that, but
for my grandmother that took atoll Two little badass girls and
she was already tired, havingraised eight kids of her own, to
(06:14):
raise two more.
That took a toll on that woman.
I owe that woman my life andthat is the things that people
don't understand.
Immigration is not just this onething that happens.
It's not just this one formthat one fills out, this one
appointment.
It's years and years, it'ssteps after steps until it
(06:37):
finally happens.
And oh, by the way, theadministration in either country
changes, the policies and thepaperwork and the fines change,
and sometimes we had to startfrom scratch because of that,
because our paperwork would bein queue.
And then the administrationchanged in the United States,
(06:59):
and I remember we went throughan election in the Dominican
Republic as well, and all ofthat.
So when those things change,the leadership changes, they
change immigration laws, theychange applications, and all of
that is kind of like a dominoeffect.
But that's what I'm saying.
It's not just that, it's whateveryone else feels as well.
(07:20):
My uncles had to chip in becausenow they had to help my
grandmother raise us, they hadto give extra money, they had to
take odd jobs.
You know all these differentthings, all these different
dominoes that are affected bythis decision, you see, and that
(07:41):
decision didn't come lightly.
You know, my mom didn't justsay, you know what, fudge this
all.
I'm going to go to the UnitedStates because I want to.
No, she didn't have a way ofmaking a living any longer there
.
She was a woman, had divorced.
My dad had like no prospects atall.
(08:02):
She couldn't find a job.
She was like I need to dosomething else.
There were just noopportunities there.
The only other way for herwould have been to try to marry
somebody else and live off ofthat person.
And that was not something thatshe was willing to do because
her last relationship wasunhealthy, you know.
(08:28):
So she already carried thattrauma.
So she had to leave.
She had to go through adifferent avenue and it just so
happened that the one that wasmore available to her at the
time and the one where she knewpeople at, because some of my
family members they went toGermany, actually, some went to
Puerto Rico, I think a few evenwent to Spain.
(08:55):
So it really just boils down tothe connections that you have in
these places, because you wantkind of like somebody there was
something there that you knowright to be able to kind of for
lack of better words to help youout when you get there, because
it's tough, it's tough and forthose that don't know anybody
and immigrate, that means God,they really had it really bad,
(09:16):
because that is like the mostanxiety-ridden thing that one
can do.
It's just blindly run away fromsomething and go into the
unknown, just put yourself inthose shoes.
That is extremely, extremelyanxiety-ridden to do that.
So what I'm saying is, rightthrough the explanation of my
(09:39):
immigration story, which isreally nothing out of the
ordinary, it's just that it'snot done lightly, that's one,
and it doesn't happen right away.
So you hear of people seekingasylum and people like, well,
it's been five years, why don'tthey have paperwork anymore?
You know any longer.
And I just like I just shake myhead sometimes at these
(10:03):
comments and I'm like, god, tellme you don't know nothing about
immigration without telling meyou don't know nothing about
immigration Because for real,like really Really are not
(10:26):
financially stable to begin with.
Hence why they need to leave, sothat way they can provide for
their families in a better way,because there are no
opportunities there.
You know either that or I knowbecause I have a lazy eye.
My mom also wanted me to get mysurgery done because the
pediatrics doctors were betterand she knew, and Boston, that
they had more opportunitiesthere.
(10:47):
But immigration took so long,the whole process took so long,
that when I got the surgery itwas too late.
I had already grown up too much, according to the surgeon.
If they would have gotten mefive years before, he told me I
would have gotten the surgeryand gotten the therapy, that
(11:08):
happened afterwards and then youwouldn't have noticed that I
had a lazy eye.
But as it happens, because itjust the process once again,
people, the process is so longthat you know it wasn't fully
fixed, it was mildly fixed, so Ihad to learn to love myself,
you know that way.
That's another hurdle.
(11:29):
So I'm trying to explain and Ihope that you guys understand
this, that it's not thatimmigration is so complex, it's
that it is so much more to itthan the superficiality that
people think, is it, you know?
But if you just understand thatno one takes that decision
(11:50):
lightly, that's one and two,that to get it done quote
unquote the right way, takes awhole lot more effort and money
than you probably could eventhink it takes.
And if you just hold those twotruths there, you would
(12:13):
understand why people are stillpending immigration statuses and
things of that nature, or whythey cross the border, or why
they come in visas and theyoverstay their visas and things
of that nature, which actuallythat's usually what happens.
People tend to think like, oh,it's just all these people
(12:36):
crossing the border.
No, most people come over hereon visas and they overstay their
visas.
So that's another thing thatpeople get wrong and it's okay
to be wrong.
You know, if you just admit itand if you just open yourself up
to listening to people with theexperience to tell you
otherwise, as opposed to beingthis contrarian person, that
(13:01):
unless it comes from your veryclose circle source that you
don't believe it or you shun itor you automatically think
people are lying.
I just want people to knowthose two truths.
If you don't know anything elseout of this episode.
But when you hear phrases likethat, like I did it the legal
way, that's what I hear.
(13:21):
You know I suffer.
I want others to suffer too.
If I had to prove my worth andgo through all that hurdle, they
should too.
And you know, and I used to saythat hurdle, they should too.
And you know, and I used to saythat when I say like 10, 12
years ago, I used to be a parrotand say that same thing and I
had to sit with myself and belike what the fuck am I talking
(13:46):
about?
And it was like this moment fromtalking to people that either
crossed the border or had familymembers that crossed the border
and understanding thepersecution that they were
running away from that's one,and two.
(14:08):
The limited resources that theyhad, that's two.
And then understanding from myexperience how hard it is to get
papers while you're in yourcountry, before even coming here
, that's three.
So when I put those thingstogether, their story and what I
knew from my experience and mystory, I was like shit, you're
right.
You're right.
Why am I here judging thesepeople that are immigrants just
(14:33):
like me, only because they didit in a different way.
They did it in the best waythat they could do it for
themselves, with the resourcesthat they had at the time, under
the situation that they was inat that time, you see, and I had
to drop that judgment, butbefore that, I had to understand
that I was wrong, that I wasnot seeing their full picture,
(14:58):
that I was asking them to livetheir life the way that I was
living my life, and that's thething.
We're all different, you know.
We are all our own littleworlds, walking in this shared
piece of land that we call Earth.
That's it.
(15:19):
I had to sit with it and when Ifinally came to from that
realization, that shit hasn'tleft my mouth yet Because it's
wrong.
Shit hasn't left my mouth yetBecause it's wrong, because
that's fear, that's selfishnessthat I refuse to allow inside.
(15:40):
Now there's another myth outthere and it sounds like this If
you speak perfect English, noone will question you.
If you dress the right way,talk right, work hard, be
respectable, nothing bad willhappen to you.
Don't make waves, be the goodkind of immigrant.
But that's assimilation, andassimilation never, never,
(16:05):
shielded anyone.
It's like.
That's why I try to tell myLatinos like you can try all you
want, right To masquerade, tomask yourself, to shun your
identity, who you are, where youcame from, and all of that in
the hopes that people willwelcome you with open arms.
(16:29):
But at the end of the day,tigers know their tigers, lions
know their lions.
You know, I learned that thehard way.
White girls at school alwaysknew I was not part of them,
regardless of how light my skinwas.
You know so I ni de aquí ni deallá.
And then I was too nerdy to bepart of the cool Latino kids at
(16:51):
school.
You know so I was like in themiddle, like no man's land, but
it didn't matter how good myEnglish was right or how fast I
learned it and how good myaccent was, like they always
knew I was not part of them.
They knew who their people areand they knew I was not their
(17:12):
people.
And when I say they, I'mtalking anyone that is not
Latino, that doesn't have anopenness for other people.
In my experience that usuallyhappened with white folks, and I
think that's because I lived inMassachusetts for a long time
where those white folks thatweren't very welcoming to
(17:35):
outsiders, to other people kindof like, kept me at arm's length
and they always gave me thatvibe of you're not like us,
you're not part of our group.
So I learned very early oncoming to the United States that
it didn't matter how hard Itried to learn English fully,
(17:57):
just involve myself.
Everything is English,everything that I consume is
English, fixing my accent,changing the way I dress to a
more preppy outfit and stufflike that, buying the things
that they buy, and all of that.
It didn't matter those thatchose not to welcome me because
I was not part of their group.
They simply didn't welcome me.
(18:18):
They always knew.
So assimilation is not a shieldfor us.
If anything, it makes us morevulnerable, not just to
rejection, because I don't thinkthat's very important, but it
makes us more vulnerable andmore of a target for other
people who are like that topunch us down, because they know
(18:41):
that now they have somebodythat is malleable, somebody that
is weak, because they havedenied who they are.
And I think when you deny whoyou are, you kind of give up
your power.
And people know that and I hateto say this, but it's kind of
like you smell the fear in them,because only fearful people do
(19:03):
that.
They give their power away inthe hopes that quote unquote
somebody more powerful than themwill umbrella them, take them
in and protect them.
But what they don't know isthat if only they held on to
their power and who they are,they will be able to protect
(19:23):
themselves.
You see what I'm saying.
So assimilation is not a shield,if anything.
It's a muzzle, it's a costume,it's a constant audition.
It is exhausting audition.
It is exhausting, trust me, itis exhausting.
I told somebody oh God, Iforgot who it was I was like I
love being in Latino communitiesbecause it's like I feel so at
(19:45):
home and it's something aboutbeing around people and the
culture that just like makes medrop my guard so fast.
It's insane and I don't realizehalf the time that I have my
guard on until that happens andI feel so light and so free just
being able to talk to somebodyin Spanish, being able to
(20:08):
commiserate about food, aboutour music right, about shared
memories and anecdotes andthings that we have in common.
It's just something else, Itell you.
So assimilation won't save usbecause, no matter what, you can
never do everything right,because I go back to, you're not
(20:30):
part of that group.
You're still going to be knownas being another.
You're still going to getstopped, questioned, denied,
deported, detained, dismissed,dehumanized.
Assimilation is only proximityto whiteness.
That's it.
You get close to it, but you'renot it, you're not in it, right
(20:53):
?
So it doesn't give you noprotection, right?
Which brings me to the mostinsidious layer of this
proximity to whiteness.
It doesn't save you, but somany Latinos will believe that
it does and they chase it likemirror it.
(21:18):
They raised their kids on it.
Oh, my goodness.
I remember when I first came inand I was living with my auntie
and my uncle.
I remember I came from schooland I think it was because I was
belittled so badly.
You know, this was in Brooklyn.
They just they put me down somuch about my accent.
(21:42):
They surrounded me, all thesekids in Brooklyn and kept asking
me how do you say the time?
I remember vividly how do yousay the time?
And you know, in Spanish we saywe don't say 10-09, we say 10-9
, you know so I was translatingit verbatim from Spanish to
(22:04):
English and once a little kidcaught on to that he got like a
whole bunch of friends gang upon me, everybody circled me and
it wasn't until my cousinnoticed that I was in the middle
of the circle and pulled me out.
I was like, oh my God, and Iwent home.
You know, I got on the train,got back home and all of that,
(22:27):
and I came and I announced to myauntie I don't ever want to
speak Spanish.
Spanish is horrible, it's sougly.
I just want to speak Englishfrom now on.
But that was me reacting to thisvery bad experience that I had.
In a way it was like me tryingto think that if only I get
(22:50):
close to that ideal right, thesethings wouldn't be happening to
me.
I would have been saved.
I'm glad my auntie talked to me.
She was like I'd never seenthis lady mad.
She hardly gets mad.
But she got up from her tableand she was like don't you dare
say anything like that everagain?
(23:12):
She was like you are Dominican,born and raised in the
Dominican Republic.
Your parents taught you Spanishand that is who you are and you
don't give that up for anyone.
And I remember being mad.
I didn't say anything because Iwas taught to respect, right,
respect my elders.
(23:32):
Plus, I was living in myauntie's house.
You know, that was a big no-no.
I would have gotten spanked byher and then by my mom once I
went to live with my mom.
So that was a big no-no.
But you see what I'm saying,that reaction that I had.
But if my auntie would havebeen somebody else, perhaps that
would have been nurture, asopposed to someone setting me
(23:55):
straight, being like no, youridentity is powerful.
It's okay to learn other thingsoutside of your culture, but
your identity is powerful.
It's okay to learn other thingsoutside of your culture, but
your identity is powerful.
It is nothing wrong with youridentity, with who you are, you
see, because whiteness, in theAmerican imagination, is not
just a race, it's a hierarchy,and if we can get close enough
(24:20):
that's the mentality Maybe we'llbe saved.
Maybe we'll be saved, maybewe'll be respected, maybe we
won't be gang up at in school atrecess, maybe we'll be left
alone.
But the truth is that whitenessdoesn't make room at the table.
It just hands out crumbs tomake you feel lucky, while it
(24:44):
builds a wall behind you to keepothers out and you continue to
like, try to get close and closeto it, and steadily they're
building a wall.
That's not community people,that's co-opted compliance.
That's co-opted compliance.
(25:09):
So when we echo the logic ofborders right, we become
enforcers of our own oppression.
And that's why I say, like thatvideo, those memes that I see,
that the worst enemy of a Latinois a self-hating Latino.
It is so true.
We become the enforcers of ourown oppression.
It's pick-me energy dressed upas patriotism.
Pick-me America, I follow allthe rules.
(25:31):
Pick-me I don't march in thestreets with those rioters.
Pick-me I speak English.
Pick me I speak English.
Pick me I work hard, I vote forthe right party.
I am not like them.
But here's what I want you toask who are you trying to
(25:58):
impress and what part ofyourself are you cutting off to
belong?
Because true belonging doesn'trequire you to hate yourself or
hate your identity or betrayyour identity.
You see what I'm saying.
If you truly belong, youwouldn't have to give up any of
that.
(26:18):
So what now?
What do we do?
Right after I just said allthis mess?
Well, here's what I want us tosit with.
If your family came here, thelegal way, use that privilege to
advocate, not distance yourself.
(26:40):
If you grew up thinking thesystem would protect you if you
played by the rules, askyourself who taught you that and
what were they afraid of.
If you ever said that's not ourproblem, I need you to realize
that language is the problem,because what harms one of us in
(27:05):
this shared piece of land wecall Earth harms all of us.
We are interconnected and Iwant us to think back about
COVID, right, because that isthe perfect example of how one
affected gets passed down toeveryone, regardless of borders,
(27:27):
regardless of race, regardlessof culture.
Try to make it as light, asfunny as possible.
I hope you got something.
I usually don't talk about myimmigration story, not because
I'm afraid of it, but becauseit's not unique.
It's very common.
(27:49):
You can talk to any immigrantand they'll probably tell you
the same story or very similarstory to mine.
But I hope it taught you thatit's not as superficially simple
as most have been made tobelieve or as most have
comprehended it to be Okay.
(28:12):
And if you heard my accent, Imean that's just it.
I have an accent, no matter howlong I speak English for, but I
also speak Spanish and I speaka little bit of French too.
So there you go.
I speak more than just onething.
Anywho, next week I'm talkingabout disassociation people, how
(28:38):
checking out and saying not mybusiness might feel like
survival, but it actually feedsinjustice.
The episode will be called, if Idon't change it.
Disassociation is a Neutral, isComplicity, and if today made
you squirm, that's good.
That's good.
That means that you'relistening and that we are
fighting against some truthsthat we need to recheck and
(29:01):
revalidate, and that is okay.
It's okay to have thosesquirming feelings when you hear
something that you don't fullyagree with.
It's okay.
Think about it, sit with it andlet me know Next week's going to
make you think as well.
And if you're ready to sit withall of this and still love
yourself through it, because youare learning and you are
(29:25):
growing, share this episode.
Tag me, Talk to your tia, yourprimo, your co-worker.
Let's be better than the wallsthey built for us.
Don't forget I'm Joa and Istill believe in us, even when
we forget who we are.
See you next week.
Bye, if today's episode spoketo you, share with somebody
(29:50):
who's finding their way back too, and if you haven't yet, visit
haveacupofjoanicom for morestories, blog posts and the bits
that started it all.
Thank you for being here.
Until next time, be soft, bebold and always have a cup of
(30:12):
John.
Oh we could, we could fly.
Welcome back to have a Cup ofJohnny.
This season isn't abouthustling harder.
It's about coming home toyourself, to your voice, to your
breath, to the quiet truth thatyou're still here and you're
not starting over.
You're starting again.
(00:21):
This is your space to reflect,reset and remember who we tell
you.
So pour your cafecito and let'sbegin the phrase.
I did it.
The legal way is an afflux.
(00:42):
Legal way is an afflux.
It's actually a warning, a signthat whiteness has gotten too
close to the heart.
Hello everyone, and welcomeback to have a Cup of Joannie.
(01:02):
Podcast.
This is episode three of theseries I didn't plan to do but
had to do, because the world isheavy and so much of that
heaviness starts in how we talk,how we think and what we
internalize.
Today we're diving into one ofthe most uncomfortable truths
I've had to sit with, truthsI've had to sit with, and that
(01:24):
is that some of the most harmfulanti-immigrant language it
comes from inside our owncommunities.
Have you all ever heard or seenin social media these videos of
Latino creators saying theworst enemy a Latino can have is
(01:47):
not a gringo, it's anotherLatino.
So this episode is calledSelf-Hating Latinos and the
Internalized Logic of Borders.
And I already know this isgoing to ruffle some feathers.
But here we are, that's okay.
Ruffle some feathers, but herewe are, that's okay, because
(02:10):
sometimes feathers need to beruffled if they've been
smoothing over injustice.
So let's begin.
Let me say this up front, though.
I've heard it too many times.
And here comes these phrasesJust imagine me doing the
quotation marks.
Well, I did it the right way.
My parents came here legally.
They're not like us, they'recriminals.
(02:30):
If they just assimilated better, they'd be fine.
Every time I hear these phrases, I don't hear pride, I hear
fear.
Fear that if we stand too closeto the wrong kind of immigrant,
we'll be seen that way too.
It's like we've become infected.
(02:53):
So we distance ourselves, wemoralize borders and we worship
assimilation like it's oursalvation.
So let's break it down right,because it's bigger than just a
one-liner.
When someone said I did it thelegal way quote, unquote what
(03:14):
they're really saying is let mebreak it down to you.
I suffered and I want others tosuffer too.
This is very close to thepeople that say I paid all my
student loans.
I don't want anybody else tohave their student loans
forgiven and I'm like what, what?
(03:35):
I even got on social media.
I was like I paid all mystudent loans, like legit, pay
them.
It took me years, but I paidthem.
And you know what?
I would be so happy if otherstudents get their student loans
wiped off, forgiven, becausethat will make it better for
(03:56):
them.
You know, it's like a parentsaid well, I suffered, I got out
of the house at 16, 17, 18.
I got out of the house at 16,17, 18.
Therefore, my kid is going todo the same and I'm like what
I'm like.
Why am I going to let the nextgeneration suffer because I
suffered?
We should be making thingsbetter, evolving, right,
(04:21):
learning, not allowing the nextgeneration to suffer the same
kind of trauma that we had.
Their trauma should be evolvedtrauma, right, it should be way
beyond what we suffered.
But when you say that, when youhear that, even if it's not you
saying it, and you hear that,just know that that is stemming
(04:50):
from fear and from selfishnessas well, because you want
somebody to suffer just like you.
And I usually don't talk aboutmy immigration story because
it's like, it's like very normal, right, it's like the
immigration story of a lot ofpeople and I never found it
unique or anything like that,but in the time that we're in
now I feel like I need to talkabout it.
(05:11):
So the entire reason why mygrandma raised me since I can
remember like I don't have amemory of my parents growing up
I didn't know my parents growingup.
I didn't meet my parents untilI came to the United States.
(05:31):
Why is that?
Because they had to leave.
Because they got their papersbefore me and it took almost 10
years.
For my sister and I to be ableto get papers after they left
Took 10 years and a lot of moneythat I didn't even comprehend
(05:52):
at that time.
But we were lucky that we hadthe money, we had the resources
and my mom had the family.
She had her mom, my grandmotherthat could step up and do that.
But for my grandmother thatcould step up and do that, but
for my grandmother that took atoll Two little badass girls and
she was already tired, havingraised eight kids of her own, to
(06:14):
raise two more.
That took a toll on that woman.
I owe that woman my life andthat is the things that people
don't understand.
Immigration is not just this onething that happens.
It's not just this one formthat one fills out, this one
appointment.
It's years and years, it'ssteps after steps until it
(06:37):
finally happens.
And oh, by the way, theadministration in either country
changes, the policies and thepaperwork and the fines change,
and sometimes we had to startfrom scratch because of that,
because our paperwork would bein queue.
And then the administrationchanged in the United States,
(06:59):
and I remember we went throughan election in the Dominican
Republic as well, and all ofthat.
So when those things change,the leadership changes, they
change immigration laws, theychange applications, and all of
that is kind of like a dominoeffect.
But that's what I'm saying.
It's not just that, it's whateveryone else feels as well.
(07:20):
My uncles had to chip in becausenow they had to help my
grandmother raise us, they hadto give extra money, they had to
take odd jobs.
You know all these differentthings, all these different
dominoes that are affected bythis decision, you see, and that
(07:41):
decision didn't come lightly.
You know, my mom didn't justsay, you know what, fudge this
all.
I'm going to go to the UnitedStates because I want to.
No, she didn't have a way ofmaking a living any longer there
.
She was a woman, had divorced.
My dad had like no prospects atall.
(08:02):
She couldn't find a job.
She was like I need to dosomething else.
There were just noopportunities there.
The only other way for herwould have been to try to marry
somebody else and live off ofthat person.
And that was not something thatshe was willing to do because
her last relationship wasunhealthy, you know.
(08:28):
So she already carried thattrauma.
So she had to leave.
She had to go through adifferent avenue and it just so
happened that the one that wasmore available to her at the
time and the one where she knewpeople at, because some of my
family members they went toGermany, actually, some went to
Puerto Rico, I think a few evenwent to Spain.
(08:55):
So it really just boils down tothe connections that you have in
these places, because you wantkind of like somebody there was
something there that you knowright to be able to kind of for
lack of better words to help youout when you get there, because
it's tough, it's tough and forthose that don't know anybody
and immigrate, that means God,they really had it really bad,
(09:16):
because that is like the mostanxiety-ridden thing that one
can do.
It's just blindly run away fromsomething and go into the
unknown, just put yourself inthose shoes.
That is extremely, extremelyanxiety-ridden to do that.
So what I'm saying is, rightthrough the explanation of my
(09:39):
immigration story, which isreally nothing out of the
ordinary, it's just that it'snot done lightly, that's one,
and it doesn't happen right away.
So you hear of people seekingasylum and people like, well,
it's been five years, why don'tthey have paperwork anymore?
You know any longer.
And I just like I just shake myhead sometimes at these
(10:03):
comments and I'm like, god, tellme you don't know nothing about
immigration without telling meyou don't know nothing about
immigration Because for real,like really Really are not
(10:26):
financially stable to begin with.
Hence why they need to leave, sothat way they can provide for
their families in a better way,because there are no
opportunities there.
You know either that or I knowbecause I have a lazy eye.
My mom also wanted me to get mysurgery done because the
pediatrics doctors were betterand she knew, and Boston, that
they had more opportunitiesthere.
(10:47):
But immigration took so long,the whole process took so long,
that when I got the surgery itwas too late.
I had already grown up too much, according to the surgeon.
If they would have gotten mefive years before, he told me I
would have gotten the surgeryand gotten the therapy, that
(11:08):
happened afterwards and then youwouldn't have noticed that I
had a lazy eye.
But as it happens, because itjust the process once again,
people, the process is so longthat you know it wasn't fully
fixed, it was mildly fixed, so Ihad to learn to love myself,
you know that way.
That's another hurdle.
(11:29):
So I'm trying to explain and Ihope that you guys understand
this, that it's not thatimmigration is so complex, it's
that it is so much more to itthan the superficiality that
people think, is it, you know?
But if you just understand thatno one takes that decision
(11:50):
lightly, that's one and two,that to get it done quote
unquote the right way, takes awhole lot more effort and money
than you probably could eventhink it takes.
And if you just hold those twotruths there, you would
(12:13):
understand why people are stillpending immigration statuses and
things of that nature, or whythey cross the border, or why
they come in visas and theyoverstay their visas and things
of that nature, which actuallythat's usually what happens.
People tend to think like, oh,it's just all these people
(12:36):
crossing the border.
No, most people come over hereon visas and they overstay their
visas.
So that's another thing thatpeople get wrong and it's okay
to be wrong.
You know, if you just admit itand if you just open yourself up
to listening to people with theexperience to tell you
otherwise, as opposed to beingthis contrarian person, that
(13:01):
unless it comes from your veryclose circle source that you
don't believe it or you shun itor you automatically think
people are lying.
I just want people to knowthose two truths.
If you don't know anything elseout of this episode.
But when you hear phrases likethat, like I did it the legal
way, that's what I hear.
(13:21):
You know I suffer.
I want others to suffer too.
If I had to prove my worth andgo through all that hurdle, they
should too.
And you know, and I used to saythat hurdle, they should too.
And you know, and I used to saythat when I say like 10, 12
years ago, I used to be a parrotand say that same thing and I
had to sit with myself and belike what the fuck am I talking
(13:46):
about?
And it was like this moment fromtalking to people that either
crossed the border or had familymembers that crossed the border
and understanding thepersecution that they were
running away from that's one,and two.
(14:08):
The limited resources that theyhad, that's two.
And then understanding from myexperience how hard it is to get
papers while you're in yourcountry, before even coming here
, that's three.
So when I put those thingstogether, their story and what I
knew from my experience and mystory, I was like shit, you're
right.
You're right.
Why am I here judging thesepeople that are immigrants just
(14:33):
like me, only because they didit in a different way.
They did it in the best waythat they could do it for
themselves, with the resourcesthat they had at the time, under
the situation that they was inat that time, you see, and I had
to drop that judgment, butbefore that, I had to understand
that I was wrong, that I wasnot seeing their full picture,
(14:58):
that I was asking them to livetheir life the way that I was
living my life, and that's thething.
We're all different, you know.
We are all our own littleworlds, walking in this shared
piece of land that we call Earth.
That's it.
(15:19):
I had to sit with it and when Ifinally came to from that
realization, that shit hasn'tleft my mouth yet Because it's
wrong.
Shit hasn't left my mouth yetBecause it's wrong, because
that's fear, that's selfishnessthat I refuse to allow inside.
(15:40):
Now there's another myth outthere and it sounds like this If
you speak perfect English, noone will question you.
If you dress the right way,talk right, work hard, be
respectable, nothing bad willhappen to you.
Don't make waves, be the goodkind of immigrant.
But that's assimilation, andassimilation never, never,
(16:05):
shielded anyone.
It's like.
That's why I try to tell myLatinos like you can try all you
want, right To masquerade, tomask yourself, to shun your
identity, who you are, where youcame from, and all of that in
the hopes that people willwelcome you with open arms.
(16:29):
But at the end of the day,tigers know their tigers, lions
know their lions.
You know, I learned that thehard way.
White girls at school alwaysknew I was not part of them,
regardless of how light my skinwas.
You know so I ni de aquí ni deallá.
And then I was too nerdy to bepart of the cool Latino kids at
(16:51):
school.
You know so I was like in themiddle, like no man's land, but
it didn't matter how good myEnglish was right or how fast I
learned it and how good myaccent was, like they always
knew I was not part of them.
They knew who their people areand they knew I was not their
(17:12):
people.
And when I say they, I'mtalking anyone that is not
Latino, that doesn't have anopenness for other people.
In my experience that usuallyhappened with white folks, and I
think that's because I lived inMassachusetts for a long time
where those white folks thatweren't very welcoming to
(17:35):
outsiders, to other people kindof like, kept me at arm's length
and they always gave me thatvibe of you're not like us,
you're not part of our group.
So I learned very early oncoming to the United States that
it didn't matter how hard Itried to learn English fully,
(17:57):
just involve myself.
Everything is English,everything that I consume is
English, fixing my accent,changing the way I dress to a
more preppy outfit and stufflike that, buying the things
that they buy, and all of that.
It didn't matter those thatchose not to welcome me because
I was not part of their group.
They simply didn't welcome me.
(18:18):
They always knew.
So assimilation is not a shieldfor us.
If anything, it makes us morevulnerable, not just to
rejection, because I don't thinkthat's very important, but it
makes us more vulnerable andmore of a target for other
people who are like that topunch us down, because they know
(18:41):
that now they have somebodythat is malleable, somebody that
is weak, because they havedenied who they are.
And I think when you deny whoyou are, you kind of give up
your power.
And people know that and I hateto say this, but it's kind of
like you smell the fear in them,because only fearful people do
(19:03):
that.
They give their power away inthe hopes that quote unquote
somebody more powerful than themwill umbrella them, take them
in and protect them.
But what they don't know isthat if only they held on to
their power and who they are,they will be able to protect
(19:23):
themselves.
You see what I'm saying.
So assimilation is not a shield,if anything.
It's a muzzle, it's a costume,it's a constant audition.
It is exhausting audition.
It is exhausting, trust me, itis exhausting.
I told somebody oh God, Iforgot who it was I was like I
love being in Latino communitiesbecause it's like I feel so at
(19:45):
home and it's something aboutbeing around people and the
culture that just like makes medrop my guard so fast.
It's insane and I don't realizehalf the time that I have my
guard on until that happens andI feel so light and so free just
being able to talk to somebodyin Spanish, being able to
(20:08):
commiserate about food, aboutour music right, about shared
memories and anecdotes andthings that we have in common.
It's just something else, Itell you.
So assimilation won't save usbecause, no matter what, you can
never do everything right,because I go back to, you're not
(20:30):
part of that group.
You're still going to be knownas being another.
You're still going to getstopped, questioned, denied,
deported, detained, dismissed,dehumanized.
Assimilation is only proximityto whiteness.
That's it.
You get close to it, but you'renot it, you're not in it, right
(20:53):
?
So it doesn't give you noprotection, right?
Which brings me to the mostinsidious layer of this
proximity to whiteness.
It doesn't save you, but somany Latinos will believe that
it does and they chase it likemirror it.
(21:18):
They raised their kids on it.
Oh, my goodness.
I remember when I first came inand I was living with my auntie
and my uncle.
I remember I came from schooland I think it was because I was
belittled so badly.
You know, this was in Brooklyn.
They just they put me down somuch about my accent.
(21:42):
They surrounded me, all thesekids in Brooklyn and kept asking
me how do you say the time?
I remember vividly how do yousay the time?
And you know, in Spanish we saywe don't say 10-09, we say 10-9
, you know so I was translatingit verbatim from Spanish to
(22:04):
English and once a little kidcaught on to that he got like a
whole bunch of friends gang upon me, everybody circled me and
it wasn't until my cousinnoticed that I was in the middle
of the circle and pulled me out.
I was like, oh my God, and Iwent home.
You know, I got on the train,got back home and all of that,
(22:27):
and I came and I announced to myauntie I don't ever want to
speak Spanish.
Spanish is horrible, it's sougly.
I just want to speak Englishfrom now on.
But that was me reacting to thisvery bad experience that I had.
In a way it was like me tryingto think that if only I get
(22:50):
close to that ideal right, thesethings wouldn't be happening to
me.
I would have been saved.
I'm glad my auntie talked to me.
She was like I'd never seenthis lady mad.
She hardly gets mad.
But she got up from her tableand she was like don't you dare
say anything like that everagain?
(23:12):
She was like you are Dominican,born and raised in the
Dominican Republic.
Your parents taught you Spanishand that is who you are and you
don't give that up for anyone.
And I remember being mad.
I didn't say anything because Iwas taught to respect, right,
respect my elders.
(23:32):
Plus, I was living in myauntie's house.
You know, that was a big no-no.
I would have gotten spanked byher and then by my mom once I
went to live with my mom.
So that was a big no-no.
But you see what I'm saying,that reaction that I had.
But if my auntie would havebeen somebody else, perhaps that
would have been nurture, asopposed to someone setting me
(23:55):
straight, being like no, youridentity is powerful.
It's okay to learn other thingsoutside of your culture, but
your identity is powerful.
It's okay to learn other thingsoutside of your culture, but
your identity is powerful.
It is nothing wrong with youridentity, with who you are, you
see, because whiteness, in theAmerican imagination, is not
just a race, it's a hierarchy,and if we can get close enough
(24:20):
that's the mentality Maybe we'llbe saved.
Maybe we'll be saved, maybewe'll be respected, maybe we
won't be gang up at in school atrecess, maybe we'll be left
alone.
But the truth is that whitenessdoesn't make room at the table.
It just hands out crumbs tomake you feel lucky, while it
(24:44):
builds a wall behind you to keepothers out and you continue to
like, try to get close and closeto it, and steadily they're
building a wall.
That's not community people,that's co-opted compliance.
That's co-opted compliance.
(25:09):
So when we echo the logic ofborders right, we become
enforcers of our own oppression.
And that's why I say, like thatvideo, those memes that I see,
that the worst enemy of a Latinois a self-hating Latino.
It is so true.
We become the enforcers of ourown oppression.
It's pick-me energy dressed upas patriotism.
Pick-me America, I follow allthe rules.
(25:31):
Pick-me I don't march in thestreets with those rioters.
Pick-me I speak English.
Pick me I speak English.
Pick me I work hard, I vote forthe right party.
I am not like them.
But here's what I want you toask who are you trying to
(25:58):
impress and what part ofyourself are you cutting off to
belong?
Because true belonging doesn'trequire you to hate yourself or
hate your identity or betrayyour identity.
You see what I'm saying.
If you truly belong, youwouldn't have to give up any of
that.
(26:18):
So what now?
What do we do?
Right after I just said allthis mess?
Well, here's what I want us tosit with.
If your family came here, thelegal way, use that privilege to
advocate, not distance yourself.
(26:40):
If you grew up thinking thesystem would protect you if you
played by the rules, askyourself who taught you that and
what were they afraid of.
If you ever said that's not ourproblem, I need you to realize
that language is the problem,because what harms one of us in
(27:05):
this shared piece of land wecall Earth harms all of us.
We are interconnected and Iwant us to think back about
COVID, right, because that isthe perfect example of how one
affected gets passed down toeveryone, regardless of borders,
(27:27):
regardless of race, regardlessof culture.
Try to make it as light, asfunny as possible.
I hope you got something.
I usually don't talk about myimmigration story, not because
I'm afraid of it, but becauseit's not unique.
It's very common.
(27:49):
You can talk to any immigrantand they'll probably tell you
the same story or very similarstory to mine.
But I hope it taught you thatit's not as superficially simple
as most have been made tobelieve or as most have
comprehended it to be Okay.
(28:12):
And if you heard my accent, Imean that's just it.
I have an accent, no matter howlong I speak English for, but I
also speak Spanish and I speaka little bit of French too.
So there you go.
I speak more than just onething.
Anywho, next week I'm talkingabout disassociation people, how
(28:38):
checking out and saying not mybusiness might feel like
survival, but it actually feedsinjustice.
The episode will be called, if Idon't change it.
Disassociation is a Neutral, isComplicity, and if today made
you squirm, that's good.
That's good.
That means that you'relistening and that we are
fighting against some truthsthat we need to recheck and
(29:01):
revalidate, and that is okay.
It's okay to have thosesquirming feelings when you hear
something that you don't fullyagree with.
It's okay.
Think about it, sit with it andlet me know Next week's going to
make you think as well.
And if you're ready to sit withall of this and still love
yourself through it, because youare learning and you are
(29:25):
growing, share this episode.
Tag me, Talk to your tia, yourprimo, your co-worker.
Let's be better than the wallsthey built for us.
Don't forget I'm Joa and Istill believe in us, even when
we forget who we are.
See you next week.
Bye, if today's episode spoketo you, share with somebody
(29:50):
who's finding their way back too, and if you haven't yet, visit
haveacupofjoanicom for morestories, blog posts and the bits
that started it all.
Thank you for being here.
Until next time, be soft, bebold and always have a cup of
(30:12):
John.
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