November 3, 2025 • 58 mins
What happens when your passion becomes your paycheck?
In this episode, San Holo and I unpack the real journey of turning your art into a business — and how to stay grounded when success starts pulling you in every direction. From his first viral remix on SoundCloud to headlining global festivals, San shares the mindset that’s kept him authentic through it all.
We talk about the creative struggle, the pressure to keep up with trends, and why staying different is both a blessing and a curse.
🔥 Topics we cover:
– The art vs. the algorithm
– Turning writer’s block into creative fuel
– Making peace with the business side of music
– How to protect your relationship with your art
This episode will remind you why you started — and why you’ll never be able to stop.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
San (00:00):
we put a lot of weight on ourselves trying to up every day
(00:03):
thinking create somethingbeautiful day.
and I realized, whoa, that'sliterally what I've been doing
for the last 10 years.
I wake up thinking I gotta makesomething of nothing.
Pretty intense,
Nik Cherwink (00:26):
What's up everybody?
Welcome to the Headliner MindsetPodcast.
This week's episode is one of mymost favorite conversations that
I've had in a while where wereally go deep in exploring that
interesting dance between beingan artist and being a business
owner, creating from your.
Authentic self-expression whilealso still existing in the
(00:49):
industry and in the business,and what can oftentimes really
feel like a push and pull.
So get ready for a reallybeautiful deep dive into that
dance.
This is SA Hollow.
San welcome to the show,brother.
So happy to have you here.
Thank you for making the time.
San (01:08):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk.
Nik Cherwink (01:12):
Yeah, man.
Um, you know, we were just talk,
San (01:14):
talk about.
Nik Cherwink (01:15):
I have no idea either.
So let's see where this thinggoes.
I, I'm an open book, just likeyou said.
You are a, a moment ago.
Uh, I would really love to juststart with.
The beginning of your story andand hear a little bit about your
background, like how did you getinto music in the first place?
When did you start your musicaljourney?
San (01:36):
Yeah.
Um, really early.
I was, I think I was 12 yearsold, uh, picked up a guitar for
the first time when I was, yeah,about, about 12 years old.
And, uh, ever since that momentI was just like, obsessed with,
with music and, uh, I alwaysthought I would be a guitar
player or.
You know, playing in a band orsomething.
(01:57):
Uh, but
Nik Cherwink (01:57):
Yeah.
San (01:59):
the electronic music thing happened and, uh,
Nik Cherwink (02:02):
Yeah.
San (02:02):
making beats and that kind of blew up.
And now I'm selling holo.
Nik Cherwink (02:10):
So, so how did it blow up?
Right?
I think that's everybody'squestion.
Everyone wants to blow up.
Uh, how did it blow up?
I know that's a loaded question,but I'd love to unpack that with
you.
Like when was the first momentthat you started seeing things
really take off for you?
San (02:29):
2014 SoundCloud era.
It was a, the SoundCloud wasthis exciting platform where
people went to, to find newsound.
It was, I think, not only newsounds but also new genres.
People there were like puttingmusic out that was kind of
pushing all the boundaries.
Nik Cherwink (02:50):
Yeah.
San (02:50):
and, I was really inspired by that.
I was on there every day justlike listening to new music,
like stuff I've never heardbefore wanted to be part of that
movement, you know?
So I started making my ownstuff.
Um, trap music was really big atthat time, like heavy trap trap
beats.
Um, and I started doing likesome chords and kind of cute
(03:15):
melodies over the, over it kindof as a joke, not, not a joke.
It was, it was serious to me,but it was, uh, kind of like a
little wink to the, to theheavier trap music.
I want
Nik Cherwink (03:27):
Yeah.
San (03:28):
throw some sparkles in there, you know.
Nik Cherwink (03:30):
Yeah.
San (03:31):
I've always been like inspired by, by, uh, doing
things a little bit different,
Nik Cherwink (03:37):
Yeah.
San (03:38):
than what's expected.
that I think, kind of resonatedwith people.
And I, I did some remixes.
I, I did, uh, the next episoderemix for, Dr.
Well, I said for Dr.
Dre, but I honestly, I justripped his vocals from, from,
uh, a Google link.
I just googled Dr.
(03:59):
Dre next episode acapella.
And I found this really lowquality acapella, and I built a
whole.
Different universe around thatacapella.
And then Trap Nation, YouTubechannel uploaded it and it blew
up.
And then I started getting callslike,
Nik Cherwink (04:17):
Yeah.
San (04:18):
you wanna DJ this party?
I was like, dj, I don't, I don'teven know how to dj.
Nik Cherwink (04:23):
Yeah,
San (04:23):
is.
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (04:26):
yeah.
I, I, I love this because.
When you did that remix, wereyou trying to blow up?
Was that the intention was I'm,I'm right.
Yeah.
San (04:37):
no.
I was not trying to blow up.
I was, I, I did know from, froma very young age that I wanted
to really express myself throughmusic
Nik Cherwink (04:46):
Yeah.
San (04:46):
that, that was, know, I, that was the thing that gave me
purpose music and, yeah.
I music, just something that I'mstarting to realize now later in
life that music has always beensomething to, to hold onto,
Nik Cherwink (05:07):
Mm
San (05:07):
creatively, also spiritually, expressing myself
in a song.
Sometimes I, I have to finish asong before I can feel that
peace, you know?
And
Nik Cherwink (05:21):
mm.
San (05:21):
it's, it's not always fun, it's, it does give me something
to hold onto.
Nik Cherwink (05:28):
Hmm.
San (05:28):
And, um, so, so making those remixes or just like doing
something creative, doingsomething different was, uh, in
a way something that I feltcalled to do.
It was just not, not like, oh, Iwanna blow up, but it
Nik Cherwink (05:47):
Yeah.
San (05:48):
like I have to do this.
Nik Cherwink (05:49):
Do.
Yeah, it sounds like it was morefor you, like an internal
process, like you even said evena spiritual process than it was
like an ex, an external process,which I think so many people
that are listening to thispodcast are like, I wanna blow
up.
What's the strategy?
How do I do it?
You know?
And now, you know, having aremix strategy as part of your
(06:11):
game plan is like, okay, let meremix this artist so that I can
get some attention.
And DJs are gonna play it like,it's so in, it's so intentional
and strategic, but it's comingfrom such a different place than
what you're talking about.
San (06:24):
thought, I never thought about a release strategy back
then.
But you also have to understandif you, if you go back 10 years,
look at Instagram.
I think Instagram didn't evensupport videos yet.
It was
Nik Cherwink (06:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Different era.
San (06:41):
Like social media was not about promoting your music or
marketing.
It
Nik Cherwink (06:47):
Mm-hmm.
San (06:48):
you know, Instagram used to be this hipster app where you
would take a photo and you wouldput a filter on on there and
everyone's like,
Nik Cherwink (06:54):
Yeah.
San (06:55):
looks like an analog, photo.
Nik Cherwink (06:58):
Yeah.
San (06:59):
so, so the whole landscape was so different.
And, um, SoundCloud for, for mewas, was that that exciting
platform where people couldleave a comment on the audio
file, which was so exciting too,because you knew you made
something like, let's say youmade this crazy drop that you
heard in your head, and then youput it out on the internet and
(07:20):
then you would see people'sreaction to that drop written
down on the way file.
So that was such a.
Nik Cherwink (07:28):
Hmm.
San (07:29):
beautiful experience.
Nik Cherwink (07:31):
Yeah.
San (07:32):
bring that back.
Like we, we need, why, whydidn't Spotify support that?
That would be so cool to seepeople on tracks.
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (07:40):
Yeah.
Like on the actual part of thesong that got them, you know,
most inspired.
Right.
But I think we're bringing up areally good.
Dialogue here because yes, thelandscape has changed, right?
The marketing tools has havechanged.
It was a different era.
SoundCloud had a differentculture around it.
(08:03):
But at the same time, I thinkthe essence of making music for
yourself and for expressionversus making music to try to
become famous and make it acareer.
San (08:19):
Yeah,
Nik Cherwink (08:20):
ultimately two different things.
And, not to say it's black orwhite.
I'm sure you also still havesome strategy in what you do.
You know, now it's like, it'snot one or the other, but I, I
just think it's such animportant thing to look at.
And, and, and also I think thisis what separates being a
producer slash DJ versus beingan artist.
(08:40):
I think an artist is going topursue making music because it's
a calling.
They have to, there's somethinginside of them that is genuinely
curious and, and wanting to comeout of your soul, versus when
you're a producer, it's like,okay, here's, here's the
formula, right?
Here's what's happening.
Here's the, you know, the trendsand the labels, and there's a
(09:01):
math and a science behind it.
And again, not to say one isright or wrong, but I guess what
I'm getting at is I want toreally.
Acknowledge you and celebrateyou because from the first time
I ever heard your music, I waslike, whoa, this is some shit
I've never heard before.
This guy's doing his own thing.
He's got his own sound, his ownvibe, his own flavor.
You weren't following any sortof trends per se, and, and
(09:23):
you're someone that I reallywould consider, walking the true
artist path in a very like,authentic way.
San (09:32):
This is, I really appreciate that.
Thank you.
First of all.
Thanks for the compliment.
It's very layered though.
It's, it's
Nik Cherwink (09:38):
Yeah.
San (09:39):
And I, and you're touching on a very interesting uh, I
think layered concept where.
Um, you know, I've always triedto stick to my sound.
Um, I see artists, the big popstars, you know, you see how
they go from genre to genre.
(10:03):
You know, they, for example,they used to do big room, then
they go future base, and thenthey go house, and now they do
UKG, you know,
Nik Cherwink (10:12):
Yeah.
San (10:13):
I'm not hating on that.
I'm just saying that's adifferent strategy.
I personally wouldn't be able todo that because I've always been
excited by things that stick outor are different from the
common, um, yeah, what, what'spopular and that, that sounds
very hipster, but it's, it'snot, it's, it's, uh, it's, know,
(10:40):
is very interesting and, and.
I've been playing with thisthing for a long time.
Um, I, music is intimate.
To me.
It's an intimate experience.
Nik Cherwink (10:51):
Yeah.
San (10:52):
And, and if, if you suddenly, if I would suddenly
start making the stuff thateveryone is listening to or
everyone wants to hear, thatdoesn't feel intimate to me
anymore.
I love li listening to artiststhat are.
You know, are doing their ownthing, and maybe they're not
famous or, most of my, most ofthe, the, the, my favorite
(11:14):
artists that I listen to, theydon't make a living off of
music.
They, they have a small setup intheir room and they work at a
coffee shop, or they have a dayjob, but they make gorgeous
music, you know, and it justdoesn't feed the algorithm.
But, but that experience oflistening to them very intimate.
(11:35):
And something happens, you know,when someone blows up and
everyone listens to them and llet's for example, Fred again.
Like when I first discoveredFred again, I was obsessed with,
with his, his sound and hissampling and his approach, and
it was just I'd never heardbefore.
And still, like he has carvedout, oh, his own genre like
(12:00):
that, his genre is kind of fretagain, and people have kind of.
Jumped on that train.
Nik Cherwink (12:07):
Yeah.
San (12:08):
there's something that happened when someone blows up
big, where think the music isstill insane and it's, he's an
incredible producer and it'sjust good.
can't deny it's really good.
But the intimacy of when I firstheard that song, I think it was
called, uh uh, it's called IFound You.
(12:33):
my God, that that song, I, andI, and I don't think anyone was
really listening to it backthen, but that intimacy with
that song that you justdiscovered for yourself and No,
and it was, no one knew aboutit.
something that I really likeabout music and it's, it's,
Nik Cherwink (12:49):
Yeah.
San (12:49):
I wish, I wish I wasn't like that.
I
Nik Cherwink (12:52):
Hmm.
San (12:52):
like that.
Nik Cherwink (12:53):
Well, and that's kind of the old traditional
role, I would say, of a DJ in a,in, in, in certain areas was
like to introduce newundiscovered music.
And I guess, you know, it, itstill is, right?
Um, but yeah, it's aninteresting thing to look at of
(13:15):
the.
The newness when something isstill just surfacing and just
bubbling and, and that,
San (13:23):
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (13:23):
that intimacy of like, Ooh, I'm, I'm kind of the
first person experiencing this.
It hasn't been played outmillions of times yet, and it
has a different Yeah, nuance toit.
San (13:32):
to clarify, this is, this is not a, um, this is not
saying, Hey, don't like himanymore because he went may
mainstream, or That artist isbad because they sold out and
they went mainstream.
Not at all.
This
Nik Cherwink (13:46):
Yeah.
San (13:46):
I'm just expressing my personal opinion, how I
experience music, myrelationship to music.
It's interesting.
It's, it's, uh, it's veryintimate I
Nik Cherwink (13:56):
Hmm.
San (13:57):
um, and, and that's okay.
probably just how I'm gonna gothrough life.
I'm gonna hear something, uh,sometimes I hear a video on
Instagram reels.
I'm scrolling and I hearsomething.
I'm like, whoa, this is, thissounds very special.
And I
Nik Cherwink (14:12):
Yeah.
San (14:13):
it and I listen to it, um, because it sounds so, yeah.
Beautiful to
Nik Cherwink (14:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, I, how do you, I'mcurious, how do you as a
creator, as a producer, as anartist, continue to create.
Outside of the box.
Right.
How do you continue to kind ofstay fresh with your sound and
(14:38):
not fall into, you know,repetition and continue to
evolve?
San (14:45):
Yeah, for, for me, that's the only thing that, that drives
me, you know?
Nik Cherwink (14:49):
Mm-hmm.
San (14:49):
Uh, I, I did an album last year called Existential Dance
Music, and then, I played thisdubstep festival, lost Lands,
and that's more like a, youknow, it's like a music,
Nik Cherwink (15:05):
Yeah.
San (15:05):
uh, lots of dubstep, brim, and I just thought, let's do
something different.
And I, I thought of this conceptcalled wholesome rhythm, which
is kind of like There's alreadymelodic rhythm exists, but I
wanted to bring a, a new twistto it.
And I thought people were gonnahate on it, but people really
liked the wholesome rhythmthing.
(15:25):
Um, so I dedicated this year andnext year to kind of doing that,
exploring a new kind of,production method and, and
style, wholesome rhythm era.
Nik Cherwink (15:38):
Yeah.
San (15:38):
really, really fun because I'm learning all these new
techniques and, uh, it stillfeels like me, but then with a,
with a different.
Edge, a
Nik Cherwink (15:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (15:51):
It's not a choice to, uh, stay different.
It is, a, a natural thing thatI, if I'm making something that
sounds like, like right now, ifI'm making something that sounds
like UKG or like, not hating onUKG, by the way, not hating on
it, but.
(16:12):
If I,
Nik Cherwink (16:12):
That's nice.
San (16:13):
in the studio and I make something and it sounds too much
like what's popping right now,
Nik Cherwink (16:19):
Yeah.
San (16:20):
I naturally do change everything up so that it doesn't
sound like that.
And that's a blessing and acurse.
'cause I wish I could just goalong with the wave sometimes
because it would be great for mycareer.
That's, that's be honest, youknow?
But.
Nik Cherwink (16:34):
Uh, no, I love that though.
I love that.
You know, I've, I've seen this alot with.
Producers and, and also kind ofmore traditional record
producers as well, when you sortof read some of their stories of
how they made certain albums.
And again, not to make it soblack and white, but I, I do
think there are, um, you know,different, at least two
(16:55):
different approaches I see for alot of.
Younger kind of bedroomproducers, they're just trying
to find their sound or trying tofind, you know, the formula,
right?
And it's like, okay, cool.
Now I found this thing and now Ican make a bunch of music.
And, and, and really, um, it'salmost like they've arrived at
that destination as opposed to Alot of producers are kinda like,
(17:19):
once I've done things a certainway, now I want to.
I'm kind of bored of that.
Like, what's next?
Like what's the next kind offun, interesting, different,
exciting thing to chase.
And I love reading these storiesof, you know, record producers
where they're like, okay, we, wedid the last album this way.
And now.
Now, okay, it's time for adifferent album.
And you know, let's see whatit's like to.
(17:41):
Hang the guitar amp upside downfrom the ceiling fan and see
what that sounds like.
And let's like, you know, let'stry this out.
I've never tried this before.
Here's a crazy idea.
And, and it's more of chasingand following the curiosity of
like, what's possible and what'snext, rather than what's been
done and how do I figure out howto do that?
San (18:00):
Yeah, exactly.
And, and I think, um, everyone,everyone's relationship to music
is different.
That's something that I havelearned throughout the years and
I navigate my music journeythrough my relationship with
music.
Um, but music for someone could.
(18:25):
I just wanna have a good time.
I want it to make me happy.
You know, I've,
Nik Cherwink (18:28):
Yeah.
San (18:29):
I've, I've talked with several people who, who said,
um, oh, I just wanna play musicin the car.
That kind of makes me feel likeuplifted and happy.
I don't want music to make mesad.
I, you know, and for me, it'sthe opposite.
I, I want to play music thatdigs
Nik Cherwink (18:46):
Mm.
San (18:47):
soul, you know?
Nik Cherwink (18:48):
Yeah,
San (18:49):
so, so it's different for everyone,
Nik Cherwink (18:51):
totally.
San (18:52):
no right or wrong.
Um, that, that, that was a very,really, uh, fascinating
realization that, that, wow,like music is not just this, the
function of music is differentfor everyone.
Nik Cherwink (19:10):
Mm-hmm.
San (19:10):
mean?
Nik Cherwink (19:11):
Yeah.
Yeah,
San (19:13):
of it.
Nik Cherwink (19:14):
yeah.
San (19:17):
yeah, it's interesting
Nik Cherwink (19:19):
And none of it is right or wrong.
Right.
I think that that's reallyimportant too, is like, yeah.
San (19:25):
I'm grateful for,'cause my, you know, I'm, relationship to
music emotionally is reallycomplex.
I love it.
But I also, sometimes it killsme when I'm writing a song.
You know
Nik Cherwink (19:38):
Mm.
San (19:39):
I, but when I can't get it right, it's not fun.
A
Nik Cherwink (19:42):
Mm
San (19:42):
It's not a hobby in that sense.
It's not
Nik Cherwink (19:44):
mm.
San (19:44):
I'm gonna go play tennis.
And have some fun, you know,like it's, uh, um, I guess if
you, if you take it thatseriously, everything becomes
not only fun, it becomes more ofa calling,
Nik Cherwink (19:58):
Yeah.
San (19:58):
like a thing, thing to figure out.
And uh,
Nik Cherwink (20:01):
Yeah,
San (20:01):
you know, right now I'm working on this song and I'm
just like, can't get it right.
And I feel this unease in mybeing, you
Nik Cherwink (20:12):
yeah, yeah.
And, and how?
San (20:16):
me, it's that serious.
Nik Cherwink (20:17):
And how do you work through that when you hit
those creative blocks, not beingable to really find the, you
know, resolution to the songthat you're, that you're
seeking.
What do you do to work aroundthat?
San (20:30):
I, I think I, I don't know.
It's not a, it's not a workingaround, it's about just, maybe
it's not the, maybe that's not aproblem.
Maybe that's
Nik Cherwink (20:38):
Hmm.
San (20:39):
my strength.
I take it that personal and thathope, you know, I hope that
people hear that.
I hope that every sound I pick,you know, you can pick any sound
of, of and I could tell youwhere it comes from and where I
was at that time and how I wasfeeling.
Nik Cherwink (20:57):
Yeah.
San (20:57):
for some other people making a song by me.
Just more like, let's make abanger.
Let's make something that feelsgood.
You know, like,
Nik Cherwink (21:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (21:05):
also good and that's beautiful in its own way too.
Nik Cherwink (21:09):
Yeah.
Well, I think you just saidsomething so profound, which is
that what if struggling withyour song or having a creative
block isn't a problem?
Because we look at that as beinga problem, right?
It's like, oh, I want to come inand just be inspired and, and
have flow and all of that.
But there's almost this, thiswrestle that you get to have
(21:33):
with your music is the wholepoint, right?
It's, it's kind of like, it'slike life.
It's like, oh, what if I justalways wanted to be happy and
everything always worked out allthe time in life was just that.
It's like, no, that's, life isalso pain and struggle and
challenge, but that's what makesyou who you are.
It's what makes it fuckingbeautiful.
San (21:51):
Yeah.
That's why I, I always tend to,you know, I get, I get artists
asking me like, Hey, what do youdo when you've got writer's
block?
and, uh, you know.
We like to create diagnosis likeas people, right?
We like to diagnose ourselveslike, oh, I, I
Nik Cherwink (22:07):
Yeah.
San (22:08):
I can't work right now 'cause I have writer's block.
I, does it really exist?
Like, isn't it, isn't it justlike life happening?
Nik Cherwink (22:16):
Yeah.
San (22:17):
you don't want to claim that term.
You know,
Nik Cherwink (22:19):
Mm.
San (22:20):
don't wanna, if
Nik Cherwink (22:22):
Yeah.
San (22:22):
you're, maybe you're already writing when you think
you're not writing.
Sometimes I'm, sometimes I, oh,the other day I had this.
I was trying to just createsomething'cause I couldn't
create like a dance strike thatI was working on.
So I played some guitar recordedsome guitar noodles and I
thought, oh, this also sucks.
(22:44):
So I created this guitar loopand I was like, it's whatever.
And then I reversed it andchopped it up, and then
something happened.
And uh, now I'm working on thatsong.
I put a beat on it and like it'smy favorite song.
So I was already writing thatsong, Like subconsciously there
(23:05):
was already, struggle wasalready doing something to me
Nik Cherwink (23:10):
Yeah.
San (23:10):
next song,
Nik Cherwink (23:12):
Yeah.
San (23:12):
know.
Nik Cherwink (23:13):
Ooh.
And just to expand thatperspective even a bit more, we
can potentially limit ourselvesto thinking that writing the
song only exists when I'msitting down at the DAW or the
guitar and I'm, you know, quoteunquote working on the song.
But what if also it's when I.
Go to the beach that weekend andI jump in the water and I feel
(23:34):
the sand on my toes and Iexperience life and I have a
conversation with a friend thatthat's also a
San (23:39):
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (23:41):
my mindset, my personality, my emotions.
And then when I go back to sitdown again, all of that is being
brought into the song.
So when are we ever not anartist?
San (23:52):
Yeah.
That, and that's the thing.
And that's also the, the weight,right?
Uh, I had a conversation with,with someone the other day and
he said, uh, you know, we put alot of weight on ourselves
trying to up every day thinkingcreate something beautiful day.
That's, and I realized, whoa,that's literally what I've been
(24:12):
doing for the last 10 years.
I wake up thinking I gotta makesomething of nothing.
I gotta create something, gottacreate beauty, gotta create.
I'm not saying this to myself.
I'm not looking into mirror andsaying, you gotta create beauty.
No, it's, but it's this feelinginside.
You wanna create, create,create, um, pretty intense, you
(24:35):
know.
Nik Cherwink (24:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what's a different mindsetand approach to have?
Rather than I have to createsomething and then that feels
heavy.
Like what's another mindset tostep into around it?
San (24:50):
You know, I'm still figuring that out.
Maybe it's, uh, don't know.
I, that I still feel it.
I still feel, um, a little bitof an ease when I'm not, uh,
creating.
Nik Cherwink (25:05):
Hmm.
San (25:06):
it's, I, I don't know if it's a bad thing or if I need a
better relationship with it,but, um,
Nik Cherwink (25:12):
Hmm.
San (25:13):
it's also the artist's struggle, I guess.
Nik Cherwink (25:17):
Hmm.
San (25:18):
I dunno.
It's uh, I just realize there'sso many, everyone is so
different.
Everyone is so different.
Every artist is different.
Some artists just are veryfocused.
They say nine to five, I lockin, and then whatever happens
that day.
I, I, start and I close it, andthen I go back home, and then
(25:39):
tomorrow we start again.
I, for me, it's a, it's, neverending, also never starting.
You know, it, it, it's, I couldhave a conversation with you
today that inspires a wholerecord, you know?
Uh,
Nik Cherwink (25:56):
I hope it does.
San Holo Headliner Mindset EPcoming out 2026.
San (26:07):
Yes.
Nik Cherwink (26:08):
Hmm.
I love that.
Um,
San (26:12):
Collab, collab of the century.
Nik Cherwink (26:14):
yeah.
San (26:15):
I did wanna say something.
We, we kind of, we kind of, uh,you know, kept on talking and it
was, uh, I, I enjoyed the freeflow of the conversation, but
you did say something earlierthat I wanted to talk about.
Um, the.
I, I wanna put the recordstraight.
I, um, you said back, back inthe day like that I made music
(26:41):
out of, um, just a pure passionperspective, right?
Like, not just with the idea oflike, I wanna blow up, I want to
be famous.
That is correct.
Um, but I can't deny that rightnow, 10 years down the line.
I do definitely feel like partartists, but also running a
(27:05):
business, you know,
Nik Cherwink (27:06):
Yeah,
San (27:06):
also, I am, um, is a choice and it's a choice I've made and
sometimes it's a struggle withthe, the creative part inside of
me
Nik Cherwink (27:21):
Hmm.
San (27:22):
and navigating that has been really interesting
throughout the years.
Nik Cherwink (27:26):
Yeah.
Why do you say it's a choice?
San (27:32):
Because, uh, you can be an amazing artist.
You can be an incredible artistand not get paid anything for
your work.
Nik Cherwink (27:40):
Yeah.
San (27:41):
You know, that's just a fact.
I know a
Nik Cherwink (27:43):
Yeah.
San (27:43):
artists that are not getting, paid or living off of
their work
Nik Cherwink (27:49):
Yeah.
San (27:50):
and I think if you want to live off of your work, that's
that some.
There has to be some sort ofbusinessman in you
Nik Cherwink (28:02):
Yeah.
San (28:03):
or, you know, and that's the struggle.
And I, and I'm not, I'm, that'snot my natural state, not my
Nik Cherwink (28:11):
Yeah.
San (28:12):
state to think about budgets and how to market it.
And, but it's a choice I've madeand for now I've decided to, to.
Play that role sometimes
Nik Cherwink (28:27):
Mm-hmm.
San (28:27):
and, and, um, but it's not, not going to be forever.
It's
Nik Cherwink (28:34):
Yeah.
San (28:35):
I
Nik Cherwink (28:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (28:36):
want to do that.
Nik Cherwink (28:40):
Yeah, this, this is something I talk a lot about
on the podcast is, you know, forevery artist that's out there
that's making music, and youknow, by all means, make music
and love the process.
And, and, and if at some pointyou want to be successful in the
music business.
(29:00):
You also get to start abusiness, right?
In order to have it turn intoincome, in order to market
yourself, build a brand, playshows, make money, all of that.
Like you have to become a, inthe beginning, a self-employed
entrepreneur, you are a businessowner, and that's the big
struggle for a lot of people isI love making music.
I don't necessarily love being abusiness owner, and one, you
(29:23):
don't have to, but.
But two, if, if you want to, youknow, turn it into a career, I
think it's an inevitable, aninevitable part of the process.
San (29:32):
Even hearing you talk about it, like being like, you have to
be an entrepreneur and stuff,and like that, it's, it is a
harsh reality.
Nik Cherwink (29:40):
Yeah.
San (29:41):
but it's not a nice, it's that the, the art that comes
from the heart and the love thatyou pour into it is so detached
from, from those concepts, thosenumbers, and.
Nik Cherwink (29:56):
Yeah.
San (29:57):
It, it is an intimate world that you feel inside yourself,
that you feel like you wannaexpress and put out basically
what you wanna put out.
Love into the world.
Nik Cherwink (30:06):
Yeah.
San (30:06):
you wanna do as an artist.
Whether it's with sad music orwith happy music, or with
whatever type of music you wannaput love into the world.
Nik Cherwink (30:14):
I'm so curious to hear your perspective on this
because I've seen this and, andI've worked with a handful of
artists.
I do life coaching, four artistsspecifically, and mindset
coaching where I've had artistswhere you, when you start.
You're not thinking about thebusiness.
(30:36):
And so you're making music froma place of pure joy, fun,
passion, creativity, and thenthat's what makes the music
successful is because there's acertain kind of energy that
you're putting into it.
I think similar to you.
You're like, I wasn't trying tomake this remix blow up.
I was just having fun.
And then it blows up.
It gets a lot of attention.
Everybody falls in love with it,and now all of a sudden, whether
(30:59):
you realize it or not.
You're running a business,you're in the business, and now,
now you're touring.
This becomes the full-time job.
All of a sudden, you have tokeep touring to pay the bills.
All of a sudden there's a wholedifferent level of, stress and
pressure and contracts and, youknow, touring and, and so now
(31:20):
you're also trying to becreative, but it's, you're not
in the same place that you werebefore.
So the, the trap I often timessee people fall into is now I'm
making music more as fuel.
To keep the business going so Ican kind of keep the bills paid.
And then I'm now probably losingthat passion.
(31:41):
I'm losing that same spark.
Right?
And so a lot of the, a lot ofthe work that I've done with
people is like, how do you getrealigned with that spark again?
Um, but it's, I think it's aninev and, and inevitable part of
most artists journeys.
And I'm curious if you'veexperienced that for yourself as
well.
San (32:00):
That's, uh, a hundred percent what I experience.
Nik Cherwink (32:03):
Mm-hmm.
San (32:03):
touring makes, touring makes things a lot more complex
in terms of you have a touringartist project, there's a lot of
costs that come with that.
And a lot of risk, a lot ofpeople involved and it's an
amazing experience getting totour.
It's it that itself inspired meso much.
(32:26):
Being able to, to Asia nextmonth to play Korea, Japan, and
China.
you lent in China.
I lent at the airport andthere's people the other side of
the world with my merchant.
presence.
And it's not that that inspiresme, that, oh, I'm famous, but
(32:49):
like the, the fact that theyhave had an experience with my
music on the other side of theworld, they connected to
something that I made in mybedroom that is inspiring to me.
Not the being there and, andgetting gifts.
That's, that's of course.
But the fact that peopleconnected to it from the other
(33:10):
side of the world is beautifulto me.
However.
The touring side is just, um,extremely stressful because
there's a lot of money involvedwith getting your production to
every, every venue.
You know, you have, you haveyour crew that needs to get
(33:34):
paid.
At some point you start tothink, oh.
For example, right now I wouldlove to work on an ambient
album, right?
I would love to
Nik Cherwink (33:43):
Yeah.
San (33:44):
guitar album.
Let's say I just wanna playguitar and like noodle around
and record that and get reallycreative.
But at the same time, I alsowanna tour next year
Nik Cherwink (33:55):
Yeah.
San (33:55):
and, I'm gonna show up at festivals and play an ambient
guitar set as San Holo, peopleare
Nik Cherwink (34:02):
Yeah.
San (34:03):
You
Nik Cherwink (34:03):
Maybe, maybe not at Lost Lands.
San (34:06):
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
Or maybe
Nik Cherwink (34:09):
Yeah,
San (34:10):
the next time.
Nik Cherwink (34:11):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, what do you, what do youthink is the solution and, and
what have you done as a touringartist to, um, to stay.
Grounded and balanced in themidst of all of the moving
pieces and the pressure thatcomes with being a touring
(34:33):
artist.
San (34:34):
I think for me, accepting that, that it is a choice for me
right now to,
Nik Cherwink (34:39):
Mm-hmm.
San (34:40):
to do this.
Nik Cherwink (34:42):
Yeah.
San (34:42):
I know that I can always fall back to art the way I
started.
You
Nik Cherwink (34:49):
Yeah.
San (34:50):
I don't have a responsibility to, uh, I can, I
have to, I can decide.
This gives me peace.
Some, some type, sometimes to.
Stop tomorrow and say, Hey,
Nik Cherwink (35:03):
Yeah.
San (35:03):
fun.
I'm gonna go back to me and alittle guitar recording some
stuff, and I don't care wholistens to it.
This is just for me.
Nik Cherwink (35:11):
It's so huge because back to what you were
saying about waking up andfeeling the pressure of I have
to create something great today.
I know for you that's coming alittle bit more from a, almost
like a spiritual perspective,but also also it can be the,
San (35:27):
business
Nik Cherwink (35:28):
now it's like, yeah, I gotta keep the business
going, so I gotta create thenext album or whatever.
And when we are stuck in themindset of I have to.
Right.
San (35:40):
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (35:40):
We make ourselves powerless, but shifting into,
I'm choosing to, and also like Iget to, this is a choice.
I get to do this.
It's a big perspective shiftthat really changes the entire
game.
Like, this is a choice.
Nobody's holding a gun to myhead and making me get outta bed
and make music, or making me getoutta bed and, and go on tour.
(36:01):
Right.
And, and to ultimately stepinto, you know, that, that.
State of like, wow, like I, Iget to do this every day.
I'm blessed to do this everyday.
Right?
And it can be easier, easiersaid than done to just think
your way into that.
But if every day we're waking upand we're like, fuck, I have to
do this.
Oh my gosh.
It's like, okay.
(36:21):
That's the first step to look towork on is like, how am I, how
am I seeing all of this?
Like it is a choice.
So I love that you point thatout.
San (36:28):
choice for me to me be clear.
It's a choice for me to, to dothis, to do music and also to do
the music industry.
That's a choice
Nik Cherwink (36:39):
Yeah.
San (36:39):
to do.
Music is a calling
Nik Cherwink (36:41):
Yeah,
San (36:42):
the music industry.
It's a choice.
Nik Cherwink (36:44):
yeah.
I don't think it's a choice foryou to do music.
I think you have to do music foryour, for your soul and for your
spirit, right?
Yeah,
San (36:51):
is a, music is a calling, and that's what I will
Nik Cherwink (36:54):
totally.
San (36:55):
till the day that I die.
Nik Cherwink (36:57):
Yeah.
San (36:57):
industry is a choice and I have, uh, with that choice,
seeing it as a choice alsoenabled me to get inspired by
navigating that.
So getting inspired by touringthe world.
And getting inspired by, what doI want versus what does the
(37:18):
world want?
Nik Cherwink (37:20):
Yeah.
San (37:21):
that whole process is you can find inspiration in that
too.
It's an art in itself.
I, I spoke about it with mytherapist the other day, and,
uh, she said, you know,balancing those two things, um,
instead of viewing it as a.
An evil thing.
You could also see that as aninspir inspiring thing.
You know, it's an art in itself.
(37:42):
How to,'cause here's the thing,I went to school for music.
Uh, I started guitar.
And everyone teaches you how to,how to play guitar, how to make
music, how to, maybe even thesedays they teach you how to
market it.
I don't know.
no one teaches you what to dowhen it.
(38:03):
When it's happening, when, whenit works, when it's,
Nik Cherwink (38:06):
Mm-hmm.
San (38:06):
it, when you're doing it.
The, the whole, the, thepsychology behind that.
You can't teach anyone that.
It's an experience that you,some point hopefully for
everyone's watching.
I hope that you get toexperience that.
Nik Cherwink (38:20):
Yeah.
San (38:22):
but then you're kind of on your own, you know?
And I guess that's why peoplecome to you also and like say
like, yo, what the hell?
Like what am I,
Nik Cherwink (38:30):
Yeah.
San (38:30):
I do?
Nik Cherwink (38:31):
Yeah.
Well, as somebody who has beendoing it, obviously your journey
is unique, and it's your lifeand your world, your universe
that you've created.
But what are some tips that youwould give to artists that are
about to take that step and, andget outta the bedroom and start
(38:52):
touring?
What are some, what if we hadthe course to teach and offer,
what would some of the lessonsbe in that?
San (39:02):
Look man, like advice from me.
Um, is that everyone is sovastly different.
Every person is so vastlydifferent.
I, my advice would be don'tlisten too much to, to the
advice everyone is throwing atyou.
Nik Cherwink (39:25):
Yeah.
San (39:26):
that might work for them, but what you might need, you
know, sometimes I see peopletalk and say, you know, here's.
you should get into the studioand finish a song in 30 minutes
and then do the, do the, like,create five ideas in a session.
And, and I would, I would feelterrible doing that.
I, I spend a month on a song,you know, sometimes like, and I
(39:49):
go, go for a walk at night,listen to the lyrics and change
the lyrics up because it doesn'tfeel right and, you know.
You, you might say, oh, that's aterrible process because it's
not effective.
But if that's how you operateand that's how you get your
motivation and, and inspiration,might to say that you should
(40:10):
make five songs
Nik Cherwink (40:12):
Yeah.
San (40:13):
You know?
Nik Cherwink (40:13):
Yeah,
San (40:14):
a lot of that content.
You see a lot
Nik Cherwink (40:15):
yeah,
San (40:16):
of, of people saying this, do this.
Here's my advice for you.
Do that.
Like, and I, I think you can'tjust.
Should advice, general advice toeveryone.
It,
Nik Cherwink (40:31):
Yeah.
San (40:31):
person should be treated as an, as their own universe.
You're a whole universe.
Your,
Nik Cherwink (40:38):
Yeah.
San (40:38):
your, the way, your, your culture, your religion, your
parents, your relationship toart.
so deep, and I think this.
You can't really cut this into anice Instagram reel.
My answer, you know.
I wish I could just say, here'smy advice, do this, do
Nik Cherwink (40:57):
Yeah.
San (40:58):
But I think my advice is more, more, uh, um, fluid in
terms of, advice to you wouldbe, um, just because something
works for someone else doesn'tmean that it will work for you.
There's no right way of doingit.
only right way would be tofollow what you feel works for
(41:23):
you.
There's not one hack that worksfor
Nik Cherwink (41:26):
yeah, yeah.
Dude, it, I really.
Beautiful answer because if youlook at E everybody that is, you
know, achieving the goals thatyou might want to have, let's
say touring, you know, has builtthe business, and then you look
at what's the path that theytook to get there.
There's 500 different paths andso you know your path.
(41:49):
I think a lot of people arelooking at, they're looking for.
What's the answer, right?
What's the formula?
How do you do it?
What are the, what's the recipefor success?
And I just think you completelynailed it, and it's a great
reminder for me as a coach,because that's how I was trained
as a coach initially, was thatwe don't give answers.
We just ask questions.
You have all the answers insideof you.
(42:10):
My job is just to hold space,probably like your therapist is
just, they're just asking youquestions.
What, what's your truth?
What's alive in you?
What's real for you?
How do we draw that out ofpeople rather than, giving all
the answers.
So, really good reminder for me,'cause I've kind of lost touch
with that a little bit.
I have started creating someplaybooks and formulas and, you
(42:31):
know, this is what works.
But like you said, it might workfor you, it might not.
Every, you know, there's no oneright answer.
San (42:37):
that, that's, that's part of that, uh, what you're talking
about.
Like, you know, you've done yourconcessions, you wanted to grow.
Your socials too.
And then, you know, sometimesthat's about playing the game a
little bit, And that's sometimesme making a song that, and I
feel like, oh, maybe we should,uh, maybe it's a good idea to
make a dance record and not anambient record right now,
(42:59):
because I want to go on tournext year.
You know, like,
Nik Cherwink (43:02):
Yeah.
San (43:03):
a, I think what we're talking about, if I can like add
something to my advice, it wouldbe to, if you're an artist and,
and a musician.
sure that your relationship withmusic is solid.
Nik Cherwink (43:19):
Hmm.
San (43:20):
the music industry thing, you know, you can get the advice
and the tricks and the, and thewhat to do on TikTok and all
that stuff.
That's, but that's not reallypart of the music,
Nik Cherwink (43:34):
Yeah.
San (43:35):
music world,
Nik Cherwink (43:36):
Yeah.
San (43:37):
And I think if you stay.
At least at you, you know, yourrelationship to music and what
it means to you and what'simportant to you when it comes
to true music and art, then youmight be able to navigate, um,
the music industry with a littlebit more peace of mind.
Nik Cherwink (43:56):
Yeah.
San (43:56):
Um.
Nik Cherwink (43:57):
Yeah.
Thousand percent because themusic has to come first.
It doesn't have to.
I would prefer if it does, Ithink this is, if you wanna be
the an artist versus just beinga producer slash dj, if we wanna
look at it from business terms,create the product first, and
then go learn how to market itand sell it.
But you gotta make the thingfirst and make that thing, you
(44:20):
know, from a place of, uh, Idon't wanna say isolation.
But from a place of lookinginward, rather than looking so
much outward.
'cause the other, the other wayis looking at what's happening,
what's happening in theindustry, and then trying to
create your, you know, productfor lack of a better term.
(44:41):
From there.
Again, neither is right or wrongthat.
Can work and it does work.
There is a formula.
Also, AI can fucking do it foryou now, so good luck with that,
right?
But, but I think the path thatwe're talking about really as an
artist, right, make the, makethe music first.
Make the music from your owntaste, your own self-expression.
(45:05):
And then figure out where itfits in, then figure out, you
know, how do you build a brandaround it in the marketing.
But if all of that's comingfirst, it's gonna, it's gonna
affect the creative process andI think probably be a little bit
less fun, you know.
San (45:20):
well, and that's the thing.
Some people can do that.
Some people can, uh, let's,let's be honest, some, I think
there's.
Artists out there that are morebusinessmen than than artists,
and that's
Nik Cherwink (45:36):
Oh yeah.
San (45:36):
That's, that's, that's the whole, that's the painful part
Nik Cherwink (45:42):
Hmm.
San (45:42):
for, for a lot of artists, I think.
I
Nik Cherwink (45:45):
Mm-hmm.
San (45:45):
part for a lot of artists is to see that people that are
really good at, at marketingand, and building a, a company
and building a brand sometimesalso get to really.
Be in the spotlight'cause of
Nik Cherwink (46:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (46:05):
I think what I'm really trying to say is, um, what I, I
agree with everything you saidabout the music comes first, but
you do have to, to ask yourselfthe question, do I want to be
part of the music industry?
(46:28):
You know, that's a goodquestion.
Do I want to pay the bills withmusic?
Do I want to live off of my art?
And if that's, so then there'sthings you could do that would
help with that.
You know,
Nik Cherwink (46:43):
It's such an interesting dance.
It's such an interesting dance.
'cause it does get, it does getto be both, as we said in the
beginning, if you want to.
Have a business, have asuccessful business in the music
industry.
You get to be a business owner.
You also get to reallyunderstand how the business
works and understand all the insand outs of the business and
(47:05):
understand branding andmarketing and, and, and all of
that.
Um, so it's a really interestingbalance of how to lead with
authenticity and, um, yeah,authentic.
Creativity while also.
You know, being really good atthe business.
I, I, I think you said somethinga moment ago about, you know,
(47:28):
there are these guys and, andyeah, let's be honest, let's be
real.
There are artists out there,huge, big headlining artists
where their job is now to run amultimillion dollar touring
business with 50 people on theirteam, and they're not spending
eight hours a day making musicanymore.
You know, they have other peoplethat are helping them with that,
(47:48):
and it's this whole machine.
Welcome to the music business.
Not even 2025, but,
San (47:54):
just,
Nik Cherwink (47:54):
that's,
San (47:54):
real.
Nik Cherwink (47:55):
yeah,
San (47:56):
real.
They don't make the musicanymore.
Nik Cherwink (47:57):
yeah, yeah.
And, and, and, because,
San (47:59):
but.
Nik Cherwink (48:00):
yeah, but it's true.
And that,
San (48:02):
it's
Nik Cherwink (48:02):
and the thing is, KA Perry doesn't produce her
music either.
Pop artists aren't doing it, youknow what I mean?
And, and now EDM has become popin that sense.
And it's following a bit ofthis, this, you know.
Reality of how the musicbusiness works in some of these
other areas.
So, you know, being an artist ismore about, yeah, being the
face, being the dj, and runningthe business.
(48:25):
And what I would say is cool,like if that's what you want for
your life.
Awesome.
Do it.
You have been called.
Yeah, yeah,
San (48:35):
to music is different,
Nik Cherwink (48:36):
yeah.
And, and you've, you've beencalled to make music, express
your feelings.
Right?
It's like you, as you said, youcan't not do that.
You, I love it, dude.
I love it.
And none of it's wrong.
None of it's right or wrong.
We all get to have our ownplace.
I've found this weird.
This weird little space in themusic industry where I get to be
(48:58):
a coach.
Didn't plan on that, butfollowing, you know, similarly
following my own passion, my owncreativity and inspiration.
And at one point realizing like,well damn, if I wanna like
actually have this be abusiness.
I do get to do the marketing.
I do get to like, you know,learn certain parts of the
business, which maybe it's notas fun, but, you know, we're
(49:18):
all, we're all figuring out our,our place in it.
And, um, I think finding what,what feels true for you is
important.
San (49:25):
so you, so you know, you made a decision to, okay, let's
do the marketing, let's do this,
Nik Cherwink (49:30):
Yeah.
San (49:31):
but, but, but your true passion would be still there if
the cameras were off.
Right?
If you're
Nik Cherwink (49:38):
Oh yeah.
I would prefer them to be, yeah,I would, I I would love to just
coach all day, give me fiveclients a day and, and let me
fucking rip in and Oh yeah, Iwould love that.
But in order for me to get thoseclients, I get to put myself out
there and let people know that Iexist.
You know, similarly to youmusic, it's like you would love
(49:58):
to just make music all day, butif you want to have people hear
it and come to your shows, yougotta put it out there, right?
Come, comes with the territory.
San (50:06):
concept of this.
This explains my concept of, youknow, you've got the.
The music or the art or thepassion.
Nik Cherwink (50:13):
Yeah.
San (50:14):
with passion.
Nik Cherwink (50:15):
Yeah,
San (50:15):
And then you've got the, the business side of things.
And
Nik Cherwink (50:18):
totally.
San (50:20):
and that is a choice.
If you want to make a living offof your passion, then
Nik Cherwink (50:24):
Yeah.
San (50:25):
you have to
Nik Cherwink (50:25):
Yeah.
San (50:26):
Uh, there's
Nik Cherwink (50:27):
You know something.
San (50:27):
of course cases where that writers, there's wild cards
where some people just reallyonly do whatever the fuck they
want and they have a viralmoment or,
Nik Cherwink (50:36):
Yeah, yeah,
San (50:37):
uh,
Nik Cherwink (50:38):
yeah, for sure.
You know something, one of mycoaches told me early on when I
was just starting to kind ofbuild my coaching business was
he was like, look, if you,'causefor me, this is a calling too.
I honestly, I would rather goget a tech job here in Austin.
And make, you know, 300 grand ayear selling fucking software
(50:58):
and just like have a mindless,simple, easy job.
I've been called to do thisshit.
I've tried to walk away multipletimes and God, the universe has
said, no motherfucker.
Get back there and serve thesepeople.
And what this, what my coachtold me early on was like, look,
if this really is your calling,if you're actually really about
the service that this isproviding, and you feel in your
(51:20):
heart and soul that this is whatyou're supposed to be doing,
then.
You'll be willing to do.
The other hard stuff that comesalong with it, right?
Like, you'll be willing to gowork the job at Starbucks while
you're building your coachingbusiness because you're actually
fucking about it.
Right?
And I think similarly, as anartist, the same thing.
The passion.
Like, look, if you really loveit, you'll be willing to, you
(51:43):
know, do the business stuff thatmaybe sucks, but it's all there
to support the dream, thevision, the passion, the
creativity, right?
So,
San (51:52):
is not,
Nik Cherwink (51:52):
yeah.
San (51:53):
is not a choice.
You would say the
Nik Cherwink (51:55):
Yeah.
San (51:55):
not a choice.
Nik Cherwink (51:56):
Yeah.
San (51:57):
you doing, you want you wanting to do this.
That's not a choice.
That's
Nik Cherwink (52:01):
yeah, yeah.
San (52:03):
a, it's a very interesting thing to talk about the calling.
'cause that's a, I feel likepeople don't really realize that
if, if,
Nik Cherwink (52:12):
Hmm.
San (52:13):
if you just keep giving, getting back to it, coming back
to it, if you wake up every timestill thinking about it,
Nik Cherwink (52:19):
Yeah.
San (52:20):
there.
And, and for me that was music.
Nik Cherwink (52:23):
Hmm.
San (52:25):
like I, I had a friend in high school and, uh, he, um, was
very talented, probably moretalented than, than, like, way
better producing music and, andhis instrument than I was, he,
didn't feel called to
Nik Cherwink (52:44):
Mm-hmm.
San (52:44):
that for the rest of his life.
Nik Cherwink (52:46):
Yeah.
San (52:47):
and he's very happy right now.
Nik Cherwink (52:49):
Yeah.
San (52:50):
there was, there was, from the
Nik Cherwink (52:51):
I.
San (52:51):
picked up a guitar, was like, you know, was like, this
is it.
Nik Cherwink (53:00):
Yeah.
San (53:01):
a guitar player too, right?
Nik Cherwink (53:03):
I am, I am.
Well, yeah.
I just, I just played my veryfirst show.
Uh, shout out Bella Renee.
I am not sure if you're familiarwith her.
She's like a, a singer, kind ofthe drum and bass world.
But yeah, she just, I, I justsit here in my, in the corner of
my room and I just, you know, Idon't really claim to be an
artist.
I just jam metal riffs just forfun.
And she was like, yo.
Come get on stage with me andplay a couple songs.
(53:26):
And so I just had my first tasteof playing live and now I'm
like, oh shit, I wanna get backout there.
I got, now I got the bug.
Now I'm like, okay, let's, let'sdo that again.
That was fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, I wanna ask you this,'causeyou know, I, I just shared,
like, I've definitely, it's suchan interesting dance of.
Passion and business and allthe, you know, the stress and
(53:47):
pressure that comes with thatbalancing, you know, just trying
to find that balance in thatdance.
Like I've definitely had acouple moments where I was just
like, ah, fuck this.
I'm over it.
I'm ready to walk away.
Have you ever reached that pointwhere you were ready to just
step out and be done?
San (54:05):
Yes, uh, it was right, right after the pandemic.
Um, I was about to, uh, partways with my management.
I was on tour the first, I thinkthe borders just opened up
again, and everyone.
The COVID just ended officiallywhile everyone was still masked.
Nik Cherwink (54:30):
Hmm.
San (54:30):
was touring and the second day off tour, one of my main
guys, uh, got COVID andeverything.
Just kind of the whole tour wewere just about to do, just kind
of got, I just got so close tolike, oh, you know, let's just
call it off because we're nevergonna get through this three
(54:50):
months of touring tests everyday.
mask, meet and greets every dayto pay for the costs.
You know,
Nik Cherwink (54:59):
You already put all that money up into the tour
in advance.
San (55:03):
Like,
Nik Cherwink (55:03):
Yeah.
San (55:04):
and greets.
Like, and, and even though Ilove, I love meeting the fans
and I, the, the people thatsupport and listen to my music,
I don't like calling them fans.
I, I always like to call themlisteners or, or, um, they, I
love, I love meeting them, but.
A hundred people a day withmasks on
Nik Cherwink (55:23):
Oh man.
That's a lot.
San (55:25):
so, I was just kind of hoping that I would not get
COVID every day.
And you know, one of my mostimportant crew members got
COVID, got hit with COVID and Iwas just like, you know what?
I don't, this is not giving meany fulfillment.
It's just stress at this point.
It's only stress.
And uh, we pulled through, youknow, at
Nik Cherwink (55:47):
Hmm.
San (55:49):
and.
some point the, we had to, I hadto carry the, the flight push to
flight cases.
You know, we had a show in SanDiego and, uh, everything was so
dis dislocated.
I had to just like travel withtwo other guys carrying all the
cases, like what, 10 cases.
(56:09):
I was pushing the cases and Iwas like, that also gave me some
kind of strength.
I was like, you know what?
Fucking go.
And,
Nik Cherwink (56:19):
Yeah.
What, what kept you going whenyou kind of reached that, you
know, you get to that edgealmost to that breaking point.
Like what, what kept you goingin those?
That tough moment?
San (56:30):
I don't know.
I think, I think that's thatcalling, that's what, what,
what, that's how, you know, Ithink the, an, the question to
ask yourself is like, would yoube.
Making songs or making music.
If only five people werelistening, you know, or only one
(56:52):
person would be listening, wouldyou still do it?
And for me, the answer is yes.
know, I, I love it.
I love, it's, it's not, it'smostly an internal process for
me.
The music and the, the journey.
Um, I would definitely work atStarbucks if I have to, you
know.
I, I would definitely work atStarbucks or a coffee shop, and
(57:15):
on the side I would do music.
I'm, I'm never gonna quit this.
I love doing this, you know,
Nik Cherwink (57:21):
Damn well.
That is an epic mic drop momentto end this episode on that, I,
I, I really, I had a handful ofbullet points and questions and
things I was thinking aboutasking.
I didn't look at one of themthroughout this entire chat.
Uh, I really, really love yourmindset and your perspective and
(57:46):
the passion that you have forthis.
And again, just really want to,yeah, man, just celebrate.
You really pursuing the truehero's journey of being an
artist.
It's incredibly inspiring, and Ithank you so much for taking the
time to, to share some of yourenergy with us and, and, uh, not
the fans, but the audience, theHeadliner Mindset community.
(58:10):
Shout out to all of you forlistening.
I love you guys and, um, Santhank you so much for coming on
today.
San (58:16):
Thank you very much for having me, and I just wanna say
I'm not the hero, everyoneworking that coffee shop job
with a thousand or like 500monthly listeners.
You guys are heroes to me.
I, I'm listening to you like,that's the stuff I love.
So keep grinding.
we put a lot of weight on ourselves trying to up every day
(00:03):
thinking create somethingbeautiful day.
and I realized, whoa, that'sliterally what I've been doing
for the last 10 years.
I wake up thinking I gotta makesomething of nothing.
Pretty intense,
Nik Cherwink (00:26):
What's up everybody?
Welcome to the Headliner MindsetPodcast.
This week's episode is one of mymost favorite conversations that
I've had in a while where wereally go deep in exploring that
interesting dance between beingan artist and being a business
owner, creating from your.
Authentic self-expression whilealso still existing in the
(00:49):
industry and in the business,and what can oftentimes really
feel like a push and pull.
So get ready for a reallybeautiful deep dive into that
dance.
This is SA Hollow.
San welcome to the show,brother.
So happy to have you here.
Thank you for making the time.
San (01:08):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk.
Nik Cherwink (01:12):
Yeah, man.
Um, you know, we were just talk,
San (01:14):
talk about.
Nik Cherwink (01:15):
I have no idea either.
So let's see where this thinggoes.
I, I'm an open book, just likeyou said.
You are a, a moment ago.
Uh, I would really love to juststart with.
The beginning of your story andand hear a little bit about your
background, like how did you getinto music in the first place?
When did you start your musicaljourney?
San (01:36):
Yeah.
Um, really early.
I was, I think I was 12 yearsold, uh, picked up a guitar for
the first time when I was, yeah,about, about 12 years old.
And, uh, ever since that momentI was just like, obsessed with,
with music and, uh, I alwaysthought I would be a guitar
player or.
You know, playing in a band orsomething.
(01:57):
Uh, but
Nik Cherwink (01:57):
Yeah.
San (01:59):
the electronic music thing happened and, uh,
Nik Cherwink (02:02):
Yeah.
San (02:02):
making beats and that kind of blew up.
And now I'm selling holo.
Nik Cherwink (02:10):
So, so how did it blow up?
Right?
I think that's everybody'squestion.
Everyone wants to blow up.
Uh, how did it blow up?
I know that's a loaded question,but I'd love to unpack that with
you.
Like when was the first momentthat you started seeing things
really take off for you?
San (02:29):
2014 SoundCloud era.
It was a, the SoundCloud wasthis exciting platform where
people went to, to find newsound.
It was, I think, not only newsounds but also new genres.
People there were like puttingmusic out that was kind of
pushing all the boundaries.
Nik Cherwink (02:50):
Yeah.
San (02:50):
and, I was really inspired by that.
I was on there every day justlike listening to new music,
like stuff I've never heardbefore wanted to be part of that
movement, you know?
So I started making my ownstuff.
Um, trap music was really big atthat time, like heavy trap trap
beats.
Um, and I started doing likesome chords and kind of cute
(03:15):
melodies over the, over it kindof as a joke, not, not a joke.
It was, it was serious to me,but it was, uh, kind of like a
little wink to the, to theheavier trap music.
I want
Nik Cherwink (03:27):
Yeah.
San (03:28):
throw some sparkles in there, you know.
Nik Cherwink (03:30):
Yeah.
San (03:31):
I've always been like inspired by, by, uh, doing
things a little bit different,
Nik Cherwink (03:37):
Yeah.
San (03:38):
than what's expected.
that I think, kind of resonatedwith people.
And I, I did some remixes.
I, I did, uh, the next episoderemix for, Dr.
Well, I said for Dr.
Dre, but I honestly, I justripped his vocals from, from,
uh, a Google link.
I just googled Dr.
(03:59):
Dre next episode acapella.
And I found this really lowquality acapella, and I built a
whole.
Different universe around thatacapella.
And then Trap Nation, YouTubechannel uploaded it and it blew
up.
And then I started getting callslike,
Nik Cherwink (04:17):
Yeah.
San (04:18):
you wanna DJ this party?
I was like, dj, I don't, I don'teven know how to dj.
Nik Cherwink (04:23):
Yeah,
San (04:23):
is.
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (04:26):
yeah.
I, I, I love this because.
When you did that remix, wereyou trying to blow up?
Was that the intention was I'm,I'm right.
Yeah.
San (04:37):
no.
I was not trying to blow up.
I was, I, I did know from, froma very young age that I wanted
to really express myself throughmusic
Nik Cherwink (04:46):
Yeah.
San (04:46):
that, that was, know, I, that was the thing that gave me
purpose music and, yeah.
I music, just something that I'mstarting to realize now later in
life that music has always beensomething to, to hold onto,
Nik Cherwink (05:07):
Mm
San (05:07):
creatively, also spiritually, expressing myself
in a song.
Sometimes I, I have to finish asong before I can feel that
peace, you know?
And
Nik Cherwink (05:21):
mm.
San (05:21):
it's, it's not always fun, it's, it does give me something
to hold onto.
Nik Cherwink (05:28):
Hmm.
San (05:28):
And, um, so, so making those remixes or just like doing
something creative, doingsomething different was, uh, in
a way something that I feltcalled to do.
It was just not, not like, oh, Iwanna blow up, but it
Nik Cherwink (05:47):
Yeah.
San (05:48):
like I have to do this.
Nik Cherwink (05:49):
Do.
Yeah, it sounds like it was morefor you, like an internal
process, like you even said evena spiritual process than it was
like an ex, an external process,which I think so many people
that are listening to thispodcast are like, I wanna blow
up.
What's the strategy?
How do I do it?
You know?
And now, you know, having aremix strategy as part of your
(06:11):
game plan is like, okay, let meremix this artist so that I can
get some attention.
And DJs are gonna play it like,it's so in, it's so intentional
and strategic, but it's comingfrom such a different place than
what you're talking about.
San (06:24):
thought, I never thought about a release strategy back
then.
But you also have to understandif you, if you go back 10 years,
look at Instagram.
I think Instagram didn't evensupport videos yet.
It was
Nik Cherwink (06:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Different era.
San (06:41):
Like social media was not about promoting your music or
marketing.
It
Nik Cherwink (06:47):
Mm-hmm.
San (06:48):
you know, Instagram used to be this hipster app where you
would take a photo and you wouldput a filter on on there and
everyone's like,
Nik Cherwink (06:54):
Yeah.
San (06:55):
looks like an analog, photo.
Nik Cherwink (06:58):
Yeah.
San (06:59):
so, so the whole landscape was so different.
And, um, SoundCloud for, for mewas, was that that exciting
platform where people couldleave a comment on the audio
file, which was so exciting too,because you knew you made
something like, let's say youmade this crazy drop that you
heard in your head, and then youput it out on the internet and
(07:20):
then you would see people'sreaction to that drop written
down on the way file.
So that was such a.
Nik Cherwink (07:28):
Hmm.
San (07:29):
beautiful experience.
Nik Cherwink (07:31):
Yeah.
San (07:32):
bring that back.
Like we, we need, why, whydidn't Spotify support that?
That would be so cool to seepeople on tracks.
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (07:40):
Yeah.
Like on the actual part of thesong that got them, you know,
most inspired.
Right.
But I think we're bringing up areally good.
Dialogue here because yes, thelandscape has changed, right?
The marketing tools has havechanged.
It was a different era.
SoundCloud had a differentculture around it.
(08:03):
But at the same time, I thinkthe essence of making music for
yourself and for expressionversus making music to try to
become famous and make it acareer.
San (08:19):
Yeah,
Nik Cherwink (08:20):
ultimately two different things.
And, not to say it's black orwhite.
I'm sure you also still havesome strategy in what you do.
You know, now it's like, it'snot one or the other, but I, I
just think it's such animportant thing to look at.
And, and, and also I think thisis what separates being a
producer slash DJ versus beingan artist.
(08:40):
I think an artist is going topursue making music because it's
a calling.
They have to, there's somethinginside of them that is genuinely
curious and, and wanting to comeout of your soul, versus when
you're a producer, it's like,okay, here's, here's the
formula, right?
Here's what's happening.
Here's the, you know, the trendsand the labels, and there's a
(09:01):
math and a science behind it.
And again, not to say one isright or wrong, but I guess what
I'm getting at is I want toreally.
Acknowledge you and celebrateyou because from the first time
I ever heard your music, I waslike, whoa, this is some shit
I've never heard before.
This guy's doing his own thing.
He's got his own sound, his ownvibe, his own flavor.
You weren't following any sortof trends per se, and, and
(09:23):
you're someone that I reallywould consider, walking the true
artist path in a very like,authentic way.
San (09:32):
This is, I really appreciate that.
Thank you.
First of all.
Thanks for the compliment.
It's very layered though.
It's, it's
Nik Cherwink (09:38):
Yeah.
San (09:39):
And I, and you're touching on a very interesting uh, I
think layered concept where.
Um, you know, I've always triedto stick to my sound.
Um, I see artists, the big popstars, you know, you see how
they go from genre to genre.
(10:03):
You know, they, for example,they used to do big room, then
they go future base, and thenthey go house, and now they do
UKG, you know,
Nik Cherwink (10:12):
Yeah.
San (10:13):
I'm not hating on that.
I'm just saying that's adifferent strategy.
I personally wouldn't be able todo that because I've always been
excited by things that stick outor are different from the
common, um, yeah, what, what'spopular and that, that sounds
very hipster, but it's, it'snot, it's, it's, uh, it's, know,
(10:40):
is very interesting and, and.
I've been playing with thisthing for a long time.
Um, I, music is intimate.
To me.
It's an intimate experience.
Nik Cherwink (10:51):
Yeah.
San (10:52):
And, and if, if you suddenly, if I would suddenly
start making the stuff thateveryone is listening to or
everyone wants to hear, thatdoesn't feel intimate to me
anymore.
I love li listening to artiststhat are.
You know, are doing their ownthing, and maybe they're not
famous or, most of my, most ofthe, the, the, my favorite
(11:14):
artists that I listen to, theydon't make a living off of
music.
They, they have a small setup intheir room and they work at a
coffee shop, or they have a dayjob, but they make gorgeous
music, you know, and it justdoesn't feed the algorithm.
But, but that experience oflistening to them very intimate.
(11:35):
And something happens, you know,when someone blows up and
everyone listens to them and llet's for example, Fred again.
Like when I first discoveredFred again, I was obsessed with,
with his, his sound and hissampling and his approach, and
it was just I'd never heardbefore.
And still, like he has carvedout, oh, his own genre like
(12:00):
that, his genre is kind of fretagain, and people have kind of.
Jumped on that train.
Nik Cherwink (12:07):
Yeah.
San (12:08):
there's something that happened when someone blows up
big, where think the music isstill insane and it's, he's an
incredible producer and it'sjust good.
can't deny it's really good.
But the intimacy of when I firstheard that song, I think it was
called, uh uh, it's called IFound You.
(12:33):
my God, that that song, I, andI, and I don't think anyone was
really listening to it backthen, but that intimacy with
that song that you justdiscovered for yourself and No,
and it was, no one knew aboutit.
something that I really likeabout music and it's, it's,
Nik Cherwink (12:49):
Yeah.
San (12:49):
I wish, I wish I wasn't like that.
I
Nik Cherwink (12:52):
Hmm.
San (12:52):
like that.
Nik Cherwink (12:53):
Well, and that's kind of the old traditional
role, I would say, of a DJ in a,in, in, in certain areas was
like to introduce newundiscovered music.
And I guess, you know, it, itstill is, right?
Um, but yeah, it's aninteresting thing to look at of
(13:15):
the.
The newness when something isstill just surfacing and just
bubbling and, and that,
San (13:23):
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (13:23):
that intimacy of like, Ooh, I'm, I'm kind of the
first person experiencing this.
It hasn't been played outmillions of times yet, and it
has a different Yeah, nuance toit.
San (13:32):
to clarify, this is, this is not a, um, this is not
saying, Hey, don't like himanymore because he went may
mainstream, or That artist isbad because they sold out and
they went mainstream.
Not at all.
This
Nik Cherwink (13:46):
Yeah.
San (13:46):
I'm just expressing my personal opinion, how I
experience music, myrelationship to music.
It's interesting.
It's, it's, uh, it's veryintimate I
Nik Cherwink (13:56):
Hmm.
San (13:57):
um, and, and that's okay.
probably just how I'm gonna gothrough life.
I'm gonna hear something, uh,sometimes I hear a video on
Instagram reels.
I'm scrolling and I hearsomething.
I'm like, whoa, this is, thissounds very special.
And I
Nik Cherwink (14:12):
Yeah.
San (14:13):
it and I listen to it, um, because it sounds so, yeah.
Beautiful to
Nik Cherwink (14:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, I, how do you, I'mcurious, how do you as a
creator, as a producer, as anartist, continue to create.
Outside of the box.
Right.
How do you continue to kind ofstay fresh with your sound and
(14:38):
not fall into, you know,repetition and continue to
evolve?
San (14:45):
Yeah, for, for me, that's the only thing that, that drives
me, you know?
Nik Cherwink (14:49):
Mm-hmm.
San (14:49):
Uh, I, I did an album last year called Existential Dance
Music, and then, I played thisdubstep festival, lost Lands,
and that's more like a, youknow, it's like a music,
Nik Cherwink (15:05):
Yeah.
San (15:05):
uh, lots of dubstep, brim, and I just thought, let's do
something different.
And I, I thought of this conceptcalled wholesome rhythm, which
is kind of like There's alreadymelodic rhythm exists, but I
wanted to bring a, a new twistto it.
And I thought people were gonnahate on it, but people really
liked the wholesome rhythmthing.
(15:25):
Um, so I dedicated this year andnext year to kind of doing that,
exploring a new kind of,production method and, and
style, wholesome rhythm era.
Nik Cherwink (15:38):
Yeah.
San (15:38):
really, really fun because I'm learning all these new
techniques and, uh, it stillfeels like me, but then with a,
with a different.
Edge, a
Nik Cherwink (15:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (15:51):
It's not a choice to, uh, stay different.
It is, a, a natural thing thatI, if I'm making something that
sounds like, like right now, ifI'm making something that sounds
like UKG or like, not hating onUKG, by the way, not hating on
it, but.
(16:12):
If I,
Nik Cherwink (16:12):
That's nice.
San (16:13):
in the studio and I make something and it sounds too much
like what's popping right now,
Nik Cherwink (16:19):
Yeah.
San (16:20):
I naturally do change everything up so that it doesn't
sound like that.
And that's a blessing and acurse.
'cause I wish I could just goalong with the wave sometimes
because it would be great for mycareer.
That's, that's be honest, youknow?
But.
Nik Cherwink (16:34):
Uh, no, I love that though.
I love that.
You know, I've, I've seen this alot with.
Producers and, and also kind ofmore traditional record
producers as well, when you sortof read some of their stories of
how they made certain albums.
And again, not to make it soblack and white, but I, I do
think there are, um, you know,different, at least two
(16:55):
different approaches I see for alot of.
Younger kind of bedroomproducers, they're just trying
to find their sound or trying tofind, you know, the formula,
right?
And it's like, okay, cool.
Now I found this thing and now Ican make a bunch of music.
And, and, and really, um, it'salmost like they've arrived at
that destination as opposed to Alot of producers are kinda like,
(17:19):
once I've done things a certainway, now I want to.
I'm kind of bored of that.
Like, what's next?
Like what's the next kind offun, interesting, different,
exciting thing to chase.
And I love reading these storiesof, you know, record producers
where they're like, okay, we, wedid the last album this way.
And now.
Now, okay, it's time for adifferent album.
And you know, let's see whatit's like to.
(17:41):
Hang the guitar amp upside downfrom the ceiling fan and see
what that sounds like.
And let's like, you know, let'stry this out.
I've never tried this before.
Here's a crazy idea.
And, and it's more of chasingand following the curiosity of
like, what's possible and what'snext, rather than what's been
done and how do I figure out howto do that?
San (18:00):
Yeah, exactly.
And, and I think, um, everyone,everyone's relationship to music
is different.
That's something that I havelearned throughout the years and
I navigate my music journeythrough my relationship with
music.
Um, but music for someone could.
(18:25):
I just wanna have a good time.
I want it to make me happy.
You know, I've,
Nik Cherwink (18:28):
Yeah.
San (18:29):
I've, I've talked with several people who, who said,
um, oh, I just wanna play musicin the car.
That kind of makes me feel likeuplifted and happy.
I don't want music to make mesad.
I, you know, and for me, it'sthe opposite.
I, I want to play music thatdigs
Nik Cherwink (18:46):
Mm.
San (18:47):
soul, you know?
Nik Cherwink (18:48):
Yeah,
San (18:49):
so, so it's different for everyone,
Nik Cherwink (18:51):
totally.
San (18:52):
no right or wrong.
Um, that, that, that was a very,really, uh, fascinating
realization that, that, wow,like music is not just this, the
function of music is differentfor everyone.
Nik Cherwink (19:10):
Mm-hmm.
San (19:10):
mean?
Nik Cherwink (19:11):
Yeah.
Yeah,
San (19:13):
of it.
Nik Cherwink (19:14):
yeah.
San (19:17):
yeah, it's interesting
Nik Cherwink (19:19):
And none of it is right or wrong.
Right.
I think that that's reallyimportant too, is like, yeah.
San (19:25):
I'm grateful for,'cause my, you know, I'm, relationship to
music emotionally is reallycomplex.
I love it.
But I also, sometimes it killsme when I'm writing a song.
You know
Nik Cherwink (19:38):
Mm.
San (19:39):
I, but when I can't get it right, it's not fun.
A
Nik Cherwink (19:42):
Mm
San (19:42):
It's not a hobby in that sense.
It's not
Nik Cherwink (19:44):
mm.
San (19:44):
I'm gonna go play tennis.
And have some fun, you know,like it's, uh, um, I guess if
you, if you take it thatseriously, everything becomes
not only fun, it becomes more ofa calling,
Nik Cherwink (19:58):
Yeah.
San (19:58):
like a thing, thing to figure out.
And uh,
Nik Cherwink (20:01):
Yeah,
San (20:01):
you know, right now I'm working on this song and I'm
just like, can't get it right.
And I feel this unease in mybeing, you
Nik Cherwink (20:12):
yeah, yeah.
And, and how?
San (20:16):
me, it's that serious.
Nik Cherwink (20:17):
And how do you work through that when you hit
those creative blocks, not beingable to really find the, you
know, resolution to the songthat you're, that you're
seeking.
What do you do to work aroundthat?
San (20:30):
I, I think I, I don't know.
It's not a, it's not a workingaround, it's about just, maybe
it's not the, maybe that's not aproblem.
Maybe that's
Nik Cherwink (20:38):
Hmm.
San (20:39):
my strength.
I take it that personal and thathope, you know, I hope that
people hear that.
I hope that every sound I pick,you know, you can pick any sound
of, of and I could tell youwhere it comes from and where I
was at that time and how I wasfeeling.
Nik Cherwink (20:57):
Yeah.
San (20:57):
for some other people making a song by me.
Just more like, let's make abanger.
Let's make something that feelsgood.
You know, like,
Nik Cherwink (21:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (21:05):
also good and that's beautiful in its own way too.
Nik Cherwink (21:09):
Yeah.
Well, I think you just saidsomething so profound, which is
that what if struggling withyour song or having a creative
block isn't a problem?
Because we look at that as beinga problem, right?
It's like, oh, I want to come inand just be inspired and, and
have flow and all of that.
But there's almost this, thiswrestle that you get to have
(21:33):
with your music is the wholepoint, right?
It's, it's kind of like, it'slike life.
It's like, oh, what if I justalways wanted to be happy and
everything always worked out allthe time in life was just that.
It's like, no, that's, life isalso pain and struggle and
challenge, but that's what makesyou who you are.
It's what makes it fuckingbeautiful.
San (21:51):
Yeah.
That's why I, I always tend to,you know, I get, I get artists
asking me like, Hey, what do youdo when you've got writer's
block?
and, uh, you know.
We like to create diagnosis likeas people, right?
We like to diagnose ourselveslike, oh, I, I
Nik Cherwink (22:07):
Yeah.
San (22:08):
I can't work right now 'cause I have writer's block.
I, does it really exist?
Like, isn't it, isn't it justlike life happening?
Nik Cherwink (22:16):
Yeah.
San (22:17):
you don't want to claim that term.
You know,
Nik Cherwink (22:19):
Mm.
San (22:20):
don't wanna, if
Nik Cherwink (22:22):
Yeah.
San (22:22):
you're, maybe you're already writing when you think
you're not writing.
Sometimes I'm, sometimes I, oh,the other day I had this.
I was trying to just createsomething'cause I couldn't
create like a dance strike thatI was working on.
So I played some guitar recordedsome guitar noodles and I
thought, oh, this also sucks.
(22:44):
So I created this guitar loopand I was like, it's whatever.
And then I reversed it andchopped it up, and then
something happened.
And uh, now I'm working on thatsong.
I put a beat on it and like it'smy favorite song.
So I was already writing thatsong, Like subconsciously there
(23:05):
was already, struggle wasalready doing something to me
Nik Cherwink (23:10):
Yeah.
San (23:10):
next song,
Nik Cherwink (23:12):
Yeah.
San (23:12):
know.
Nik Cherwink (23:13):
Ooh.
And just to expand thatperspective even a bit more, we
can potentially limit ourselvesto thinking that writing the
song only exists when I'msitting down at the DAW or the
guitar and I'm, you know, quoteunquote working on the song.
But what if also it's when I.
Go to the beach that weekend andI jump in the water and I feel
(23:34):
the sand on my toes and Iexperience life and I have a
conversation with a friend thatthat's also a
San (23:39):
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (23:41):
my mindset, my personality, my emotions.
And then when I go back to sitdown again, all of that is being
brought into the song.
So when are we ever not anartist?
San (23:52):
Yeah.
That, and that's the thing.
And that's also the, the weight,right?
Uh, I had a conversation with,with someone the other day and
he said, uh, you know, we put alot of weight on ourselves
trying to up every day thinkingcreate something beautiful day.
That's, and I realized, whoa,that's literally what I've been
(24:12):
doing for the last 10 years.
I wake up thinking I gotta makesomething of nothing.
I gotta create something, gottacreate beauty, gotta create.
I'm not saying this to myself.
I'm not looking into mirror andsaying, you gotta create beauty.
No, it's, but it's this feelinginside.
You wanna create, create,create, um, pretty intense, you
(24:35):
know.
Nik Cherwink (24:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what's a different mindsetand approach to have?
Rather than I have to createsomething and then that feels
heavy.
Like what's another mindset tostep into around it?
San (24:50):
You know, I'm still figuring that out.
Maybe it's, uh, don't know.
I, that I still feel it.
I still feel, um, a little bitof an ease when I'm not, uh,
creating.
Nik Cherwink (25:05):
Hmm.
San (25:06):
it's, I, I don't know if it's a bad thing or if I need a
better relationship with it,but, um,
Nik Cherwink (25:12):
Hmm.
San (25:13):
it's also the artist's struggle, I guess.
Nik Cherwink (25:17):
Hmm.
San (25:18):
I dunno.
It's uh, I just realize there'sso many, everyone is so
different.
Everyone is so different.
Every artist is different.
Some artists just are veryfocused.
They say nine to five, I lockin, and then whatever happens
that day.
I, I, start and I close it, andthen I go back home, and then
(25:39):
tomorrow we start again.
I, for me, it's a, it's, neverending, also never starting.
You know, it, it, it's, I couldhave a conversation with you
today that inspires a wholerecord, you know?
Uh,
Nik Cherwink (25:56):
I hope it does.
San Holo Headliner Mindset EPcoming out 2026.
San (26:07):
Yes.
Nik Cherwink (26:08):
Hmm.
I love that.
Um,
San (26:12):
Collab, collab of the century.
Nik Cherwink (26:14):
yeah.
San (26:15):
I did wanna say something.
We, we kind of, we kind of, uh,you know, kept on talking and it
was, uh, I, I enjoyed the freeflow of the conversation, but
you did say something earlierthat I wanted to talk about.
Um, the.
I, I wanna put the recordstraight.
I, um, you said back, back inthe day like that I made music
(26:41):
out of, um, just a pure passionperspective, right?
Like, not just with the idea oflike, I wanna blow up, I want to
be famous.
That is correct.
Um, but I can't deny that rightnow, 10 years down the line.
I do definitely feel like partartists, but also running a
(27:05):
business, you know,
Nik Cherwink (27:06):
Yeah,
San (27:06):
also, I am, um, is a choice and it's a choice I've made and
sometimes it's a struggle withthe, the creative part inside of
me
Nik Cherwink (27:21):
Hmm.
San (27:22):
and navigating that has been really interesting
throughout the years.
Nik Cherwink (27:26):
Yeah.
Why do you say it's a choice?
San (27:32):
Because, uh, you can be an amazing artist.
You can be an incredible artistand not get paid anything for
your work.
Nik Cherwink (27:40):
Yeah.
San (27:41):
You know, that's just a fact.
I know a
Nik Cherwink (27:43):
Yeah.
San (27:43):
artists that are not getting, paid or living off of
their work
Nik Cherwink (27:49):
Yeah.
San (27:50):
and I think if you want to live off of your work, that's
that some.
There has to be some sort ofbusinessman in you
Nik Cherwink (28:02):
Yeah.
San (28:03):
or, you know, and that's the struggle.
And I, and I'm not, I'm, that'snot my natural state, not my
Nik Cherwink (28:11):
Yeah.
San (28:12):
state to think about budgets and how to market it.
And, but it's a choice I've madeand for now I've decided to, to.
Play that role sometimes
Nik Cherwink (28:27):
Mm-hmm.
San (28:27):
and, and, um, but it's not, not going to be forever.
It's
Nik Cherwink (28:34):
Yeah.
San (28:35):
I
Nik Cherwink (28:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (28:36):
want to do that.
Nik Cherwink (28:40):
Yeah, this, this is something I talk a lot about
on the podcast is, you know, forevery artist that's out there
that's making music, and youknow, by all means, make music
and love the process.
And, and, and if at some pointyou want to be successful in the
music business.
(29:00):
You also get to start abusiness, right?
In order to have it turn intoincome, in order to market
yourself, build a brand, playshows, make money, all of that.
Like you have to become a, inthe beginning, a self-employed
entrepreneur, you are a businessowner, and that's the big
struggle for a lot of people isI love making music.
I don't necessarily love being abusiness owner, and one, you
(29:23):
don't have to, but.
But two, if, if you want to, youknow, turn it into a career, I
think it's an inevitable, aninevitable part of the process.
San (29:32):
Even hearing you talk about it, like being like, you have to
be an entrepreneur and stuff,and like that, it's, it is a
harsh reality.
Nik Cherwink (29:40):
Yeah.
San (29:41):
but it's not a nice, it's that the, the art that comes
from the heart and the love thatyou pour into it is so detached
from, from those concepts, thosenumbers, and.
Nik Cherwink (29:56):
Yeah.
San (29:57):
It, it is an intimate world that you feel inside yourself,
that you feel like you wannaexpress and put out basically
what you wanna put out.
Love into the world.
Nik Cherwink (30:06):
Yeah.
San (30:06):
you wanna do as an artist.
Whether it's with sad music orwith happy music, or with
whatever type of music you wannaput love into the world.
Nik Cherwink (30:14):
I'm so curious to hear your perspective on this
because I've seen this and, andI've worked with a handful of
artists.
I do life coaching, four artistsspecifically, and mindset
coaching where I've had artistswhere you, when you start.
You're not thinking about thebusiness.
(30:36):
And so you're making music froma place of pure joy, fun,
passion, creativity, and thenthat's what makes the music
successful is because there's acertain kind of energy that
you're putting into it.
I think similar to you.
You're like, I wasn't trying tomake this remix blow up.
I was just having fun.
And then it blows up.
It gets a lot of attention.
Everybody falls in love with it,and now all of a sudden, whether
(30:59):
you realize it or not.
You're running a business,you're in the business, and now,
now you're touring.
This becomes the full-time job.
All of a sudden, you have tokeep touring to pay the bills.
All of a sudden there's a wholedifferent level of, stress and
pressure and contracts and, youknow, touring and, and so now
(31:20):
you're also trying to becreative, but it's, you're not
in the same place that you werebefore.
So the, the trap I often timessee people fall into is now I'm
making music more as fuel.
To keep the business going so Ican kind of keep the bills paid.
And then I'm now probably losingthat passion.
(31:41):
I'm losing that same spark.
Right?
And so a lot of the, a lot ofthe work that I've done with
people is like, how do you getrealigned with that spark again?
Um, but it's, I think it's aninev and, and inevitable part of
most artists journeys.
And I'm curious if you'veexperienced that for yourself as
well.
San (32:00):
That's, uh, a hundred percent what I experience.
Nik Cherwink (32:03):
Mm-hmm.
San (32:03):
touring makes, touring makes things a lot more complex
in terms of you have a touringartist project, there's a lot of
costs that come with that.
And a lot of risk, a lot ofpeople involved and it's an
amazing experience getting totour.
It's it that itself inspired meso much.
(32:26):
Being able to, to Asia nextmonth to play Korea, Japan, and
China.
you lent in China.
I lent at the airport andthere's people the other side of
the world with my merchant.
presence.
And it's not that that inspiresme, that, oh, I'm famous, but
(32:49):
like the, the fact that theyhave had an experience with my
music on the other side of theworld, they connected to
something that I made in mybedroom that is inspiring to me.
Not the being there and, andgetting gifts.
That's, that's of course.
But the fact that peopleconnected to it from the other
(33:10):
side of the world is beautifulto me.
However.
The touring side is just, um,extremely stressful because
there's a lot of money involvedwith getting your production to
every, every venue.
You know, you have, you haveyour crew that needs to get
(33:34):
paid.
At some point you start tothink, oh.
For example, right now I wouldlove to work on an ambient
album, right?
I would love to
Nik Cherwink (33:43):
Yeah.
San (33:44):
guitar album.
Let's say I just wanna playguitar and like noodle around
and record that and get reallycreative.
But at the same time, I alsowanna tour next year
Nik Cherwink (33:55):
Yeah.
San (33:55):
and, I'm gonna show up at festivals and play an ambient
guitar set as San Holo, peopleare
Nik Cherwink (34:02):
Yeah.
San (34:03):
You
Nik Cherwink (34:03):
Maybe, maybe not at Lost Lands.
San (34:06):
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
Or maybe
Nik Cherwink (34:09):
Yeah,
San (34:10):
the next time.
Nik Cherwink (34:11):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, what do you, what do youthink is the solution and, and
what have you done as a touringartist to, um, to stay.
Grounded and balanced in themidst of all of the moving
pieces and the pressure thatcomes with being a touring
(34:33):
artist.
San (34:34):
I think for me, accepting that, that it is a choice for me
right now to,
Nik Cherwink (34:39):
Mm-hmm.
San (34:40):
to do this.
Nik Cherwink (34:42):
Yeah.
San (34:42):
I know that I can always fall back to art the way I
started.
You
Nik Cherwink (34:49):
Yeah.
San (34:50):
I don't have a responsibility to, uh, I can, I
have to, I can decide.
This gives me peace.
Some, some type, sometimes to.
Stop tomorrow and say, Hey,
Nik Cherwink (35:03):
Yeah.
San (35:03):
fun.
I'm gonna go back to me and alittle guitar recording some
stuff, and I don't care wholistens to it.
This is just for me.
Nik Cherwink (35:11):
It's so huge because back to what you were
saying about waking up andfeeling the pressure of I have
to create something great today.
I know for you that's coming alittle bit more from a, almost
like a spiritual perspective,but also also it can be the,
San (35:27):
business
Nik Cherwink (35:28):
now it's like, yeah, I gotta keep the business
going, so I gotta create thenext album or whatever.
And when we are stuck in themindset of I have to.
Right.
San (35:40):
Yeah.
Nik Cherwink (35:40):
We make ourselves powerless, but shifting into,
I'm choosing to, and also like Iget to, this is a choice.
I get to do this.
It's a big perspective shiftthat really changes the entire
game.
Like, this is a choice.
Nobody's holding a gun to myhead and making me get outta bed
and make music, or making me getoutta bed and, and go on tour.
(36:01):
Right.
And, and to ultimately stepinto, you know, that, that.
State of like, wow, like I, Iget to do this every day.
I'm blessed to do this everyday.
Right?
And it can be easier, easiersaid than done to just think
your way into that.
But if every day we're waking upand we're like, fuck, I have to
do this.
Oh my gosh.
It's like, okay.
(36:21):
That's the first step to look towork on is like, how am I, how
am I seeing all of this?
Like it is a choice.
So I love that you point thatout.
San (36:28):
choice for me to me be clear.
It's a choice for me to, to dothis, to do music and also to do
the music industry.
That's a choice
Nik Cherwink (36:39):
Yeah.
San (36:39):
to do.
Music is a calling
Nik Cherwink (36:41):
Yeah,
San (36:42):
the music industry.
It's a choice.
Nik Cherwink (36:44):
yeah.
I don't think it's a choice foryou to do music.
I think you have to do music foryour, for your soul and for your
spirit, right?
Yeah,
San (36:51):
is a, music is a calling, and that's what I will
Nik Cherwink (36:54):
totally.
San (36:55):
till the day that I die.
Nik Cherwink (36:57):
Yeah.
San (36:57):
industry is a choice and I have, uh, with that choice,
seeing it as a choice alsoenabled me to get inspired by
navigating that.
So getting inspired by touringthe world.
And getting inspired by, what doI want versus what does the
(37:18):
world want?
Nik Cherwink (37:20):
Yeah.
San (37:21):
that whole process is you can find inspiration in that
too.
It's an art in itself.
I, I spoke about it with mytherapist the other day, and,
uh, she said, you know,balancing those two things, um,
instead of viewing it as a.
An evil thing.
You could also see that as aninspir inspiring thing.
You know, it's an art in itself.
(37:42):
How to,'cause here's the thing,I went to school for music.
Uh, I started guitar.
And everyone teaches you how to,how to play guitar, how to make
music, how to, maybe even thesedays they teach you how to
market it.
I don't know.
no one teaches you what to dowhen it.
(38:03):
When it's happening, when, whenit works, when it's,
Nik Cherwink (38:06):
Mm-hmm.
San (38:06):
it, when you're doing it.
The, the whole, the, thepsychology behind that.
You can't teach anyone that.
It's an experience that you,some point hopefully for
everyone's watching.
I hope that you get toexperience that.
Nik Cherwink (38:20):
Yeah.
San (38:22):
but then you're kind of on your own, you know?
And I guess that's why peoplecome to you also and like say
like, yo, what the hell?
Like what am I,
Nik Cherwink (38:30):
Yeah.
San (38:30):
I do?
Nik Cherwink (38:31):
Yeah.
Well, as somebody who has beendoing it, obviously your journey
is unique, and it's your lifeand your world, your universe
that you've created.
But what are some tips that youwould give to artists that are
about to take that step and, andget outta the bedroom and start
(38:52):
touring?
What are some, what if we hadthe course to teach and offer,
what would some of the lessonsbe in that?
San (39:02):
Look man, like advice from me.
Um, is that everyone is sovastly different.
Every person is so vastlydifferent.
I, my advice would be don'tlisten too much to, to the
advice everyone is throwing atyou.
Nik Cherwink (39:25):
Yeah.
San (39:26):
that might work for them, but what you might need, you
know, sometimes I see peopletalk and say, you know, here's.
you should get into the studioand finish a song in 30 minutes
and then do the, do the, like,create five ideas in a session.
And, and I would, I would feelterrible doing that.
I, I spend a month on a song,you know, sometimes like, and I
(39:49):
go, go for a walk at night,listen to the lyrics and change
the lyrics up because it doesn'tfeel right and, you know.
You, you might say, oh, that's aterrible process because it's
not effective.
But if that's how you operateand that's how you get your
motivation and, and inspiration,might to say that you should
(40:10):
make five songs
Nik Cherwink (40:12):
Yeah.
San (40:13):
You know?
Nik Cherwink (40:13):
Yeah,
San (40:14):
a lot of that content.
You see a lot
Nik Cherwink (40:15):
yeah,
San (40:16):
of, of people saying this, do this.
Here's my advice for you.
Do that.
Like, and I, I think you can'tjust.
Should advice, general advice toeveryone.
It,
Nik Cherwink (40:31):
Yeah.
San (40:31):
person should be treated as an, as their own universe.
You're a whole universe.
Your,
Nik Cherwink (40:38):
Yeah.
San (40:38):
your, the way, your, your culture, your religion, your
parents, your relationship toart.
so deep, and I think this.
You can't really cut this into anice Instagram reel.
My answer, you know.
I wish I could just say, here'smy advice, do this, do
Nik Cherwink (40:57):
Yeah.
San (40:58):
But I think my advice is more, more, uh, um, fluid in
terms of, advice to you wouldbe, um, just because something
works for someone else doesn'tmean that it will work for you.
There's no right way of doingit.
only right way would be tofollow what you feel works for
(41:23):
you.
There's not one hack that worksfor
Nik Cherwink (41:26):
yeah, yeah.
Dude, it, I really.
Beautiful answer because if youlook at E everybody that is, you
know, achieving the goals thatyou might want to have, let's
say touring, you know, has builtthe business, and then you look
at what's the path that theytook to get there.
There's 500 different paths andso you know your path.
(41:49):
I think a lot of people arelooking at, they're looking for.
What's the answer, right?
What's the formula?
How do you do it?
What are the, what's the recipefor success?
And I just think you completelynailed it, and it's a great
reminder for me as a coach,because that's how I was trained
as a coach initially, was thatwe don't give answers.
We just ask questions.
You have all the answers insideof you.
(42:10):
My job is just to hold space,probably like your therapist is
just, they're just asking youquestions.
What, what's your truth?
What's alive in you?
What's real for you?
How do we draw that out ofpeople rather than, giving all
the answers.
So, really good reminder for me,'cause I've kind of lost touch
with that a little bit.
I have started creating someplaybooks and formulas and, you
(42:31):
know, this is what works.
But like you said, it might workfor you, it might not.
Every, you know, there's no oneright answer.
San (42:37):
that, that's, that's part of that, uh, what you're talking
about.
Like, you know, you've done yourconcessions, you wanted to grow.
Your socials too.
And then, you know, sometimesthat's about playing the game a
little bit, And that's sometimesme making a song that, and I
feel like, oh, maybe we should,uh, maybe it's a good idea to
make a dance record and not anambient record right now,
(42:59):
because I want to go on tournext year.
You know, like,
Nik Cherwink (43:02):
Yeah.
San (43:03):
a, I think what we're talking about, if I can like add
something to my advice, it wouldbe to, if you're an artist and,
and a musician.
sure that your relationship withmusic is solid.
Nik Cherwink (43:19):
Hmm.
San (43:20):
the music industry thing, you know, you can get the advice
and the tricks and the, and thewhat to do on TikTok and all
that stuff.
That's, but that's not reallypart of the music,
Nik Cherwink (43:34):
Yeah.
San (43:35):
music world,
Nik Cherwink (43:36):
Yeah.
San (43:37):
And I think if you stay.
At least at you, you know, yourrelationship to music and what
it means to you and what'simportant to you when it comes
to true music and art, then youmight be able to navigate, um,
the music industry with a littlebit more peace of mind.
Nik Cherwink (43:56):
Yeah.
San (43:56):
Um.
Nik Cherwink (43:57):
Yeah.
Thousand percent because themusic has to come first.
It doesn't have to.
I would prefer if it does, Ithink this is, if you wanna be
the an artist versus just beinga producer slash dj, if we wanna
look at it from business terms,create the product first, and
then go learn how to market itand sell it.
But you gotta make the thingfirst and make that thing, you
(44:20):
know, from a place of, uh, Idon't wanna say isolation.
But from a place of lookinginward, rather than looking so
much outward.
'cause the other, the other wayis looking at what's happening,
what's happening in theindustry, and then trying to
create your, you know, productfor lack of a better term.
(44:41):
From there.
Again, neither is right or wrongthat.
Can work and it does work.
There is a formula.
Also, AI can fucking do it foryou now, so good luck with that,
right?
But, but I think the path thatwe're talking about really as an
artist, right, make the, makethe music first.
Make the music from your owntaste, your own self-expression.
(45:05):
And then figure out where itfits in, then figure out, you
know, how do you build a brandaround it in the marketing.
But if all of that's comingfirst, it's gonna, it's gonna
affect the creative process andI think probably be a little bit
less fun, you know.
San (45:20):
well, and that's the thing.
Some people can do that.
Some people can, uh, let's,let's be honest, some, I think
there's.
Artists out there that are morebusinessmen than than artists,
and that's
Nik Cherwink (45:36):
Oh yeah.
San (45:36):
That's, that's, that's the whole, that's the painful part
Nik Cherwink (45:42):
Hmm.
San (45:42):
for, for a lot of artists, I think.
I
Nik Cherwink (45:45):
Mm-hmm.
San (45:45):
part for a lot of artists is to see that people that are
really good at, at marketingand, and building a, a company
and building a brand sometimesalso get to really.
Be in the spotlight'cause of
Nik Cherwink (46:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
San (46:05):
I think what I'm really trying to say is, um, what I, I
agree with everything you saidabout the music comes first, but
you do have to, to ask yourselfthe question, do I want to be
part of the music industry?
(46:28):
You know, that's a goodquestion.
Do I want to pay the bills withmusic?
Do I want to live off of my art?
And if that's, so then there'sthings you could do that would
help with that.
You know,
Nik Cherwink (46:43):
It's such an interesting dance.
It's such an interesting dance.
'cause it does get, it does getto be both, as we said in the
beginning, if you want to.
Have a business, have asuccessful business in the music
industry.
You get to be a business owner.
You also get to reallyunderstand how the business
works and understand all the insand outs of the business and
(47:05):
understand branding andmarketing and, and, and all of
that.
Um, so it's a really interestingbalance of how to lead with
authenticity and, um, yeah,authentic.
Creativity while also.
You know, being really good atthe business.
I, I, I think you said somethinga moment ago about, you know,
(47:28):
there are these guys and, andyeah, let's be honest, let's be
real.
There are artists out there,huge, big headlining artists
where their job is now to run amultimillion dollar touring
business with 50 people on theirteam, and they're not spending
eight hours a day making musicanymore.
You know, they have other peoplethat are helping them with that,
(47:48):
and it's this whole machine.
Welcome to the music business.
Not even 2025, but,
San (47:54):
just,
Nik Cherwink (47:54):
that's,
San (47:54):
real.
Nik Cherwink (47:55):
yeah,
San (47:56):
real.
They don't make the musicanymore.
Nik Cherwink (47:57):
yeah, yeah.
And, and, and, because,
San (47:59):
but.
Nik Cherwink (48:00):
yeah, but it's true.
And that,
San (48:02):
it's
Nik Cherwink (48:02):
and the thing is, KA Perry doesn't produce her
music either.
Pop artists aren't doing it, youknow what I mean?
And, and now EDM has become popin that sense.
And it's following a bit ofthis, this, you know.
Reality of how the musicbusiness works in some of these
other areas.
So, you know, being an artist ismore about, yeah, being the
face, being the dj, and runningthe business.
(48:25):
And what I would say is cool,like if that's what you want for
your life.
Awesome.
Do it.
You have been called.
Yeah, yeah,
San (48:35):
to music is different,
Nik Cherwink (48:36):
yeah.
And, and you've, you've beencalled to make music, express
your feelings.
Right?
It's like you, as you said, youcan't not do that.
You, I love it, dude.
I love it.
And none of it's wrong.
None of it's right or wrong.
We all get to have our ownplace.
I've found this weird.
This weird little space in themusic industry where I get to be
(48:58):
a coach.
Didn't plan on that, butfollowing, you know, similarly
following my own passion, my owncreativity and inspiration.
And at one point realizing like,well damn, if I wanna like
actually have this be abusiness.
I do get to do the marketing.
I do get to like, you know,learn certain parts of the
business, which maybe it's notas fun, but, you know, we're
(49:18):
all, we're all figuring out our,our place in it.
And, um, I think finding what,what feels true for you is
important.
San (49:25):
so you, so you know, you made a decision to, okay, let's
do the marketing, let's do this,
Nik Cherwink (49:30):
Yeah.
San (49:31):
but, but, but your true passion would be still there if
the cameras were off.
Right?
If you're
Nik Cherwink (49:38):
Oh yeah.
I would prefer them to be, yeah,I would, I I would love to just
coach all day, give me fiveclients a day and, and let me
fucking rip in and Oh yeah, Iwould love that.
But in order for me to get thoseclients, I get to put myself out
there and let people know that Iexist.
You know, similarly to youmusic, it's like you would love
(49:58):
to just make music all day, butif you want to have people hear
it and come to your shows, yougotta put it out there, right?
Come, comes with the territory.
San (50:06):
concept of this.
This explains my concept of, youknow, you've got the.
The music or the art or thepassion.
Nik Cherwink (50:13):
Yeah.
San (50:14):
with passion.
Nik Cherwink (50:15):
Yeah,
San (50:15):
And then you've got the, the business side of things.
And
Nik Cherwink (50:18):
totally.
San (50:20):
and that is a choice.
If you want to make a living offof your passion, then
Nik Cherwink (50:24):
Yeah.
San (50:25):
you have to
Nik Cherwink (50:25):
Yeah.
San (50:26):
Uh, there's
Nik Cherwink (50:27):
You know something.
San (50:27):
of course cases where that writers, there's wild cards
where some people just reallyonly do whatever the fuck they
want and they have a viralmoment or,
Nik Cherwink (50:36):
Yeah, yeah,
San (50:37):
uh,
Nik Cherwink (50:38):
yeah, for sure.
You know something, one of mycoaches told me early on when I
was just starting to kind ofbuild my coaching business was
he was like, look, if you,'causefor me, this is a calling too.
I honestly, I would rather goget a tech job here in Austin.
And make, you know, 300 grand ayear selling fucking software
(50:58):
and just like have a mindless,simple, easy job.
I've been called to do thisshit.
I've tried to walk away multipletimes and God, the universe has
said, no motherfucker.
Get back there and serve thesepeople.
And what this, what my coachtold me early on was like, look,
if this really is your calling,if you're actually really about
the service that this isproviding, and you feel in your
(51:20):
heart and soul that this is whatyou're supposed to be doing,
then.
You'll be willing to do.
The other hard stuff that comesalong with it, right?
Like, you'll be willing to gowork the job at Starbucks while
you're building your coachingbusiness because you're actually
fucking about it.
Right?
And I think similarly, as anartist, the same thing.
The passion.
Like, look, if you really loveit, you'll be willing to, you
(51:43):
know, do the business stuff thatmaybe sucks, but it's all there
to support the dream, thevision, the passion, the
creativity, right?
So,
San (51:52):
is not,
Nik Cherwink (51:52):
yeah.
San (51:53):
is not a choice.
You would say the
Nik Cherwink (51:55):
Yeah.
San (51:55):
not a choice.
Nik Cherwink (51:56):
Yeah.
San (51:57):
you doing, you want you wanting to do this.
That's not a choice.
That's
Nik Cherwink (52:01):
yeah, yeah.
San (52:03):
a, it's a very interesting thing to talk about the calling.
'cause that's a, I feel likepeople don't really realize that
if, if,
Nik Cherwink (52:12):
Hmm.
San (52:13):
if you just keep giving, getting back to it, coming back
to it, if you wake up every timestill thinking about it,
Nik Cherwink (52:19):
Yeah.
San (52:20):
there.
And, and for me that was music.
Nik Cherwink (52:23):
Hmm.
San (52:25):
like I, I had a friend in high school and, uh, he, um, was
very talented, probably moretalented than, than, like, way
better producing music and, andhis instrument than I was, he,
didn't feel called to
Nik Cherwink (52:44):
Mm-hmm.
San (52:44):
that for the rest of his life.
Nik Cherwink (52:46):
Yeah.
San (52:47):
and he's very happy right now.
Nik Cherwink (52:49):
Yeah.
San (52:50):
there was, there was, from the
Nik Cherwink (52:51):
I.
San (52:51):
picked up a guitar, was like, you know, was like, this
is it.
Nik Cherwink (53:00):
Yeah.
San (53:01):
a guitar player too, right?
Nik Cherwink (53:03):
I am, I am.
Well, yeah.
I just, I just played my veryfirst show.
Uh, shout out Bella Renee.
I am not sure if you're familiarwith her.
She's like a, a singer, kind ofthe drum and bass world.
But yeah, she just, I, I justsit here in my, in the corner of
my room and I just, you know, Idon't really claim to be an
artist.
I just jam metal riffs just forfun.
And she was like, yo.
Come get on stage with me andplay a couple songs.
(53:26):
And so I just had my first tasteof playing live and now I'm
like, oh shit, I wanna get backout there.
I got, now I got the bug.
Now I'm like, okay, let's, let'sdo that again.
That was fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, I wanna ask you this,'causeyou know, I, I just shared,
like, I've definitely, it's suchan interesting dance of.
Passion and business and allthe, you know, the stress and
(53:47):
pressure that comes with thatbalancing, you know, just trying
to find that balance in thatdance.
Like I've definitely had acouple moments where I was just
like, ah, fuck this.
I'm over it.
I'm ready to walk away.
Have you ever reached that pointwhere you were ready to just
step out and be done?
San (54:05):
Yes, uh, it was right, right after the pandemic.
Um, I was about to, uh, partways with my management.
I was on tour the first, I thinkthe borders just opened up
again, and everyone.
The COVID just ended officiallywhile everyone was still masked.
Nik Cherwink (54:30):
Hmm.
San (54:30):
was touring and the second day off tour, one of my main
guys, uh, got COVID andeverything.
Just kind of the whole tour wewere just about to do, just kind
of got, I just got so close tolike, oh, you know, let's just
call it off because we're nevergonna get through this three
(54:50):
months of touring tests everyday.
mask, meet and greets every dayto pay for the costs.
You know,
Nik Cherwink (54:59):
You already put all that money up into the tour
in advance.
San (55:03):
Like,
Nik Cherwink (55:03):
Yeah.
San (55:04):
and greets.
Like, and, and even though Ilove, I love meeting the fans
and I, the, the people thatsupport and listen to my music,
I don't like calling them fans.
I, I always like to call themlisteners or, or, um, they, I
love, I love meeting them, but.
A hundred people a day withmasks on
Nik Cherwink (55:23):
Oh man.
That's a lot.
San (55:25):
so, I was just kind of hoping that I would not get
COVID every day.
And you know, one of my mostimportant crew members got
COVID, got hit with COVID and Iwas just like, you know what?
I don't, this is not giving meany fulfillment.
It's just stress at this point.
It's only stress.
And uh, we pulled through, youknow, at
Nik Cherwink (55:47):
Hmm.
San (55:49):
and.
some point the, we had to, I hadto carry the, the flight push to
flight cases.
You know, we had a show in SanDiego and, uh, everything was so
dis dislocated.
I had to just like travel withtwo other guys carrying all the
cases, like what, 10 cases.
(56:09):
I was pushing the cases and Iwas like, that also gave me some
kind of strength.
I was like, you know what?
Fucking go.
And,
Nik Cherwink (56:19):
Yeah.
What, what kept you going whenyou kind of reached that, you
know, you get to that edgealmost to that breaking point.
Like what, what kept you goingin those?
That tough moment?
San (56:30):
I don't know.
I think, I think that's thatcalling, that's what, what,
what, that's how, you know, Ithink the, an, the question to
ask yourself is like, would yoube.
Making songs or making music.
If only five people werelistening, you know, or only one
(56:52):
person would be listening, wouldyou still do it?
And for me, the answer is yes.
know, I, I love it.
I love, it's, it's not, it'smostly an internal process for
me.
The music and the, the journey.
Um, I would definitely work atStarbucks if I have to, you
know.
I, I would definitely work atStarbucks or a coffee shop, and
(57:15):
on the side I would do music.
I'm, I'm never gonna quit this.
I love doing this, you know,
Nik Cherwink (57:21):
Damn well.
That is an epic mic drop momentto end this episode on that, I,
I, I really, I had a handful ofbullet points and questions and
things I was thinking aboutasking.
I didn't look at one of themthroughout this entire chat.
Uh, I really, really love yourmindset and your perspective and
(57:46):
the passion that you have forthis.
And again, just really want to,yeah, man, just celebrate.
You really pursuing the truehero's journey of being an
artist.
It's incredibly inspiring, and Ithank you so much for taking the
time to, to share some of yourenergy with us and, and, uh, not
the fans, but the audience, theHeadliner Mindset community.
(58:10):
Shout out to all of you forlistening.
I love you guys and, um, Santhank you so much for coming on
today.
San (58:16):
Thank you very much for having me, and I just wanna say
I'm not the hero, everyoneworking that coffee shop job
with a thousand or like 500monthly listeners.
You guys are heroes to me.
I, I'm listening to you like,that's the stuff I love.
So keep grinding.
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