Ivy Malik / The Creative's Business Coach

Stop Overthinking, Start Earning: Ivy Malik’s Creative Business Wake-Up Call

In this powerful Headsmack episode, Ivy Malik breaks down the emotional and strategic roadblocks that hold creative entrepreneurs back. 

Drawing on her experience as a restaurateur and coach, she shares how to turn undervaluation into empowerment. 

You’ll learn why positioning matters, how to shift from referrals to marketing, and how to confidently present your prices. 

Ivy also dives into the energetic side of entrepreneurship—reminding us that strategy without alignment won’t take us far. 

If you’re tired of waiting to be discovered, this conversation is your sign to take charge.

Send us a text

Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.

Headsmack Website

Episode Transcript

Ivy Malik (00:00):
I'm Ivy Malek, and you're listening to the
HeadSmack Podcast.

Paul Povolni (00:09):
Hey, welcome to today's podcast.
My name is Paul Povolni and I'mexcited to have another Misfit
with me.
I have Ivy Malik and Ivy helpscreative entrepreneurs who feel
undervalued, break free fromoverthinking and fear so they
can price with confidence, sellwith ease and build a business
they love.
A former restaurateur with 16years of business experience,

(00:30):
she's seen firsthand howcreatives struggle to balance
passion and profit.
Now through Ivy Malik coaching,she blends psychology human
design and the practical salesstrategy to help creatives take
control of their success withoutthe stress.
Ivy, so good to have you on.
How are you doing?

Ivy Malik (00:48):
I'm doing great.
So lovely of you to have me.
Last minute, but I love that wecan just do it.

Paul Povolni (00:53):
Yes, of course, we can just do it.
Even with technical issues, Iam hearing an echo in my
earphones that we cannot figureout.
And so if I start talkingfunny, you know what's going on.

Speaker 02 (01:04):
We'll work

Paul Povolni (01:05):
through it.
So Ivy, thank you so much forcoming on and I love reading
your bio and definitely love theidea of helping creative
entrepreneurs who areundervaluing themselves and
breaking free from overthinkingand fear.
But I do want to hear a littlebit about your origin story.
I want to hear a little bitabout Ivy and where you started

(01:26):
from.
You can go as far back as youwant, but let's hear a little
bit about your origin story andhow you got to where you're at
now.

Ivy Malik (01:34):
So I think a good place to start is when my dad
told me to get a real degree.
So I'm half Swedish, halfPakistani.
My dad is the Asian father.
And I wanted to become a filmdirector.
For as long as I couldremember, I was always holding a
video camera in my hand.
I was filming.
And I was having so much fun.

(01:56):
Every presentation I could doin my school was I would do it
in film format.
No one did that at my school.
And before you knew it, in thelast year of my, of the high
school, every presentationbecame filmed.
They're like, wow, you could dothat?
And I started like this wholetrend in the whole school and
the teacher's like, oh, notanother film.

(02:18):
Like I started it.
I should be okay to do it.
But now everyone's doing it.
I wasn't unique anymore.

Paul Povolni (02:24):
So how did you get a love for that?
Like, where did that come from?

Ivy Malik (02:29):
It was my dad.
He's really techie.
He likes technology.
He likes to be part ofinnovation.
We were...
We had computers really earlyon.
We were on the internet.
As soon as we could get dialup, we had it.
He was like, we were callingpeople on, I think it was called
net meeting.
And we were calling randompeople.

(02:50):
We're like, we're speaking tosomeone in the US.
We're in Sweden.
This is so weird.
We're talking to random peopleover the internet and dial up.
So he's always...
He handed me the stuff.
Yeah, he's a bit of a techgeek.
So he handed me the camera andI'm like, wow, this is so much
fun.
I remember editing VCR to VCR,you know, with

Speaker 02 (03:11):
tapes.

Ivy Malik (03:11):
So old stuff.
So that's kind of like where itstarted.
I'm like, wow, you can do somuch with this.
When I then said, hey, I'd liketo go to film school and become
a film director.
He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,that's a good idea.
You can do what you like.
And then when he saw howserious I was, he's like...
Child, he doesn't call mechild, but let's just say he
did.
He's like, child, you can havethis as a hobby.

(03:33):
Why don't you just get a realdegree?
And, you know, you can do thiswhenever you want.
You can just do this on theside.
You know, I was really good,two goody good shoes when I was
a child.
I'm like, oh, okay, maybe Ishould get a real degree.
And so that's what I did.
I ended up getting a master'sin psychology at Edinburgh
University, made my parentsproud, went to a good

(03:55):
university.
I did that thing.
But I didn't get to do what Iwanted.
So I was always on the fringeof all my friends who were in
the art school because there areseveral universities in
Edinburgh.
All my friends were creativesand I would just look at what
they were doing.
I'd go to their galleries andI'd be like that person, like I
didn't get to do this.

(04:15):
I didn't get to enjoy it.
And then so when This is a bitof a long story, so I'm going to
cut short to...
Oh,

Paul Povolni (04:25):
you don't have to cut short.
We've got an hour.

Ivy Malik (04:28):
So I did the thing that everyone does.
Went down to London, got myselfa real proper job in the city,
and made my parents proud again.
In

Paul Povolni (04:38):
psychology or in something

Ivy Malik (04:40):
else?
No, I didn't want to pursue it.
I ended up not enjoying...
I was such an amazingresearcher, but I wanted applied
psychology, and that universitywas more research-based over
applied.
In Sweden, you have to actuallydo a whole year of living life
before you can apply forstudying psychology, but I

(05:01):
didn't want to do that.
I wanted to go straight intouniversity.
And I understand why that is soessential, because had I had a
little bit more life learning, Iprobably would have been able
to make a better choice of thekind of university I wanted to
go to.

Speaker 02 (05:14):
Right,

Ivy Malik (05:15):
right.
I just picked top university.
I'm like, which are the topuniversities that I can apply
for and make my parents proud?
And I got in and I'm like, youdon't say no to that.
if I was wiser I would havepicked the university that has a
higher faculty in psychologyrather higher reputation in

(05:35):
university so you know at thetime I think Edinburgh
University was like fourth orfifth ranked in the UK so that
that was merit according to myAsian side of the family yeah so
that's I don't know what thequestion was, but that's why.

Paul Povolni (05:52):
Well, it was whether you landed a job.
And I asked if it was inpsychology.

Ivy Malik (05:57):
So I kind of tried to figure out what I was wanting
to do.
And it was...
It was 2003, so it wasn't agreat year to get work.
So I was like, I'll just doanything.
I want to be independent now.
I don't want to rely on myparents because I didn't have to
work during university.
So I wanted to get a job.

(06:18):
And then I just worked in thecity because that's just what
you did.
Got a decent job, moved up theranks.
And then I met this guy who...
asked me a question that no onehad asked me before.
I told him about my dream oflike, I want to open a cafe

(06:40):
where people can come and chat,you know, like the dream you
have, chat and have wonderfultime as Art Deco 20s, whatever,
you know, all of that jazz.
And then all my friends, theywould dream along with me and
they would say, wow, that soundsso amazing.
You could do this, you could dothat.
But he asked me a verydifferent question.
He said, why haven't you doneit yet?
Not in an accusatory way.

Speaker 02 (07:02):
But

Ivy Malik (07:03):
that question just blew my mind.
I'm like, oh, why haven't Idone it yet?
And so I started planning.
I'm like, okay.
There is absolutely no reasonthat I can find that I haven't
done it yet.
I've been saving money.
I have money to invest.
I have a father who is anentrepreneur.

(07:23):
He has money.
I can ask him to invest.
And all I need to do is buildmy business plan.
and pitch it to him.
He actually said no the firsttime.
He's like, no, this is not aviable business.
So I had to go back and redo afew things until I actually got
the funding that I needed.
And then he's like, yep, thisis viable.
Let's do this.
So that's how I started myfirst business.

Speaker 02 (07:46):
Wow.

Ivy Malik (07:47):
And then I did that for 10 years.
And during that period, I'lljust cut the long story short.
But during that period, I fedmy creativity.
And I worked with a lot of, allmy friends were creatives.
So I could see them sufferingin their businesses.
They were being undervalued.
They were undercharging.
They were being taken advantageof.
And that didn't sit well withme because they're my friends.

(08:09):
So I went into protective modeand savior mode, which isn't the
best mode to be in, but that iswhat I did.
And I try to help my friends.
I stood in as their agents.
I did.
I try to get them paid wherethey weren't getting paid.
I tried to negotiate price forthem and successfully.
So, so they're, Parts that Ijust did for them because I love

(08:30):
them.
But then their friends came tome and said, hey, can you do
this for us as well?
And I'm like, I've got abusiness to run, but I can help
you.
So I started guiding.
When I sold my premises that Ihad, I then didn't know what to
do.

Paul Povolni (08:48):
Now, what kind of a restaurant was it?
I had a Swedish

Ivy Malik (08:51):
restaurant.
So I had a Swedish restaurantcafes and pop-ups and
collaborations that I used todo.
I did it for about 10 years.
So it's a long time.

Paul Povolni (08:58):
Yeah, well, you got a lot of experience and
probably a lot of negotiationskills were developed in that
time and a lot of understandingof business, how businesses are
run and all of that, workingwith vendors and things like
that, right?

Ivy Malik (09:11):
Yeah, it's fast-paced.
You need to be highly adaptablebecause you're customer-facing.
There's a lot of sales that'shappening every day.
People don't realize it, butyou're literally selling every
day.
You're selling an expectation,a dream.
You're selling food.
You're selling drinks.
You're selling all the time.
And when you're not selling tothe customers, you're selling to

(09:32):
your staff.
You think this is going to begreat.
You can do it.

Paul Povolni (09:36):
Yeah.
Well, in 10 years, isn't that'spretty, no, you did 16 years in
that business, right?

Ivy Malik (09:42):
10 years in that business, 16 years in business
at the time of your bio.
I think it's like 19 years now.

Paul Povolni (09:50):
Yeah.
But so, you know, within thattimeframe, you know, that's
pretty awesome for a restaurant.
Restaurants, you know,sometimes can really struggle.
And, you know, so to achievethat length of owning a
restaurant is pretty impressive.
What were the big lessons thatyou learned from that that you
started taking into your nextphase?

Ivy Malik (10:13):
All of it.
I mean, there are so manylessons.
It's a really good question,and I'm trying to figure out
which ones to actually pick.
But I think communication.
That's the biggest thing that Itook from that is how to
communicate.
Because I had to learn how tocommunicate with my team, my

(10:35):
staff.
It was a small restaurant, so14 people full-time.
Let me think.
Yeah, so communicating with theteam, communicating with
disgruntled guests.
You have hundreds of peoplegoing through every day.
There's going to be someonewho's not happy.
It's impossible to makeeveryone happy.

Paul Povolni (10:55):
And at different levels of frustration and anger
and yeah, yeah.

Ivy Malik (10:59):
Managing everyone's expectations when you do big
events.
So everything is communication.
How do you get your supplier toget you what you need when they
can't deliver?
And you have to make thathappen that they actually have
to figure it out.
How do you communicate that ina way that they do it for you,
even when they say they can't?

(11:19):
And then you get it doneanyway.
So I think communication islike the biggest thing.
And people don't realize thatbusiness is all communication.
How you speak, how you makeyourself heard, how people
respond to you.
It's all communication.
It's all communication.

Paul Povolni (11:40):
Right, and how you de-escalate emotions when it
comes to people giving overtheir money or dissatisfaction
with what they feel they werewronged in some sort of areas,
learning how to communicateeffectively without matching
energy to energy.
Because that could quicklyescalate an issue to beyond

(12:02):
repair.
And so learning that in therestaurant business is probably
one of the toughest areasBecause you're dealing with
food.
You're dealing with the basics.
You're dealing with food.
You're dealing with money.
You're dealing with emotions.
They have some sort of arelationship or emotional
attachment to where they'reeating, if they're with family,

(12:23):
if they're in a social context.
So I'm guessing probably therestaurant business is one of
the toughest businesses becauseyou've got so much random
engagements that you've got tomanage and expectations, right?

Unknown (12:37):
Mm-hmm.

Ivy Malik (12:37):
I agree.
I think that I actually had,there's a lot of stigma for
being in the restaurantindustry.
People think that you're noteducated when you're in the
restaurant industry.
And I was faced with that.
I think I was 30 at the time.
And one of my staff memberssays, what, you've got a
master's?
And I'm like, yeah, I have amaster's, but that doesn't even

(13:01):
matter.
Just because I have arestaurant doesn't mean that I'm
not educated.
You can be educated.
Like the amount of skill youneed to run a successful
business generally is immense.
You need so many differentbusiness skills.
Every skill is needed.
And then if you take that andif you remove the fact that a

(13:22):
restaurant is a restaurant andIt's still a business.
It still needs marketing.
It needs sales.
It needs accounting.
It needs people management.
You need to do inventorychecks.
Everything is needed.
And it takes every skill of abusiness to make it successful.

Speaker 02 (13:41):
Right.
And

Ivy Malik (13:42):
more.
Maybe.
I think every business has,maybe you tune in, tune out
different things.
levels of expertise that areneeded so i don't want to say
that it's like the hardestbecause there are some really
tough businesses out there aswell but using different skill
sets but all the skill sets inevery business are there it's

(14:04):
just how much you need of oneover the other

Paul Povolni (14:06):
Right, right.
Yeah, I

Ivy Malik (14:07):
don't want to diminish any business.

Paul Povolni (14:10):
Well, and the reason I said that is because
you're dealing with potentiallyhundreds of people per day or
lots of strangers per day thatyou've got to meet expectations.
You've got to satisfy.
You've got to give them a goodexperience.
They've got to leave theresatisfied and feel that they've
had a good experience.
And not a whole lot ofbusinesses have that level of

(14:31):
flow through, maybe a themepark, maybe something that has a
lot of people coming in.
And so I would imagine it is itis pretty tough and it does
take a lot of skill to run itthat I don't think people fully
understand what that is.
And the fact that you ran itfor 10 years successfully is
quite the achievement.
So well done on that.

(14:51):
Now, did you find that youbrought any of the psychology
learning into the restaurant,leading a restaurant and owning
a restaurant?

Ivy Malik (14:58):
Absolutely.
I actually didn't realize howmuch I was doing it until I went
into other businesses, until Iwent into other restaurants.
And I was observing how theywere doing their team meetings
and their training days.
I'm like, oh, you guys do this?
And I was like, this is sodifferent from what I do.
So my training manual that Ihad, I had psychology of

(15:21):
seating.
Everything was psychology of.
I didn't even realize I wasdoing it, but obviously it makes
sense.
Like how do you talk to sellmore without them feeling like
they have to buy more?
And they're like simple thingsthat if you go to many different
restaurants and you see whatother people are doing, every

(15:42):
now and then you hear someonesay like, I love the way that
they asked me this.
I'm going to use that.
And one of the things that Idid was implement same again.
So you go to the table.
It was a casual restaurant.
So you go to the table.
They're mid-conversation.
You don't want to disturb.
You kind of just like sit downat their level, wait until

(16:03):
they're ready.
They lean over and you kind ofgo, same again.
And they go, yeah.
And then you just go off andgive them the same thing.
They don't have to think.
Like make it really easy forthem to make a decision.
You know, like they've got adrink, they're going, they're
just mid-conversation, get themanother one.
So they're like little thingslike that, that I would
recommend.
Train them with like, how doyou seat people so that they're

(16:23):
comfortable, but it alsobenefits the restaurants when
more people will come in?
How do you then make peoplemove?
We had a small restaurant.
So sometimes we're like, oh,you can't sit at a four table.
We have to move you.
How do you move someone withoutthem feeling, I can't believe
you moved me.
That is the worst thing in theworld.
Teaching people how to say itin a way, do it in a way without

(16:44):
giving away anything.
Like you're not even givinganything away.
But they're like, oh, I'm goingto move.
They can sit over here.
You just create an environmentwhere everything is possible.
So I train them in all of thesethings.

Paul Povolni (16:59):
I love that.
I love that.
And so what was the moment thatyou decided that you were ready
to move?
Was there a question?
Was there a head smack?
You said that previously it wasa question.
Somebody asked you a questionnobody had asked you before.
What was the catalyst or thehead smack that moved you from a
successful restaurant businessinto the next phase?

Ivy Malik (17:21):
So I always promised myself that no one will move me
out of my business.
I will be the decider.
So bad economy won't make mestop.
Bad year won't make me stop.
None of that.
So I wanted to make thedecision and I wanted to leave
at the top, like my top.
So in business, you have somany peaks and troughs.

(17:43):
And I was on one of my highesthighs after having, I had bad
years as well, but I had many,many good years, obviously.
That's just the nature ofbusiness.
Also, I was through therecession, so I survived the
recession, which is always-That's quite an achievement,
yeah.
Quite an achievement.
I pat myself on the back forthat.
So I had always known that Iwould leave on the top.

(18:04):
But I was pregnant.
So that was a very easydecision.
I'm like, I'm not having achild.
I'm not having a restaurantchild.
My restaurant was my firstbaby.
And then I fed a few otherbabies and made other babies.
But now I need to let this onego.
This one has done its job.
So we were creating a familyand I decided to sell.

Paul Povolni (18:31):
Awesome.
And so what did you move into?
Did you take any kind of abreak or did you launch into
something fresh right afterthat?

Ivy Malik (18:39):
So I took maternity.
I had a really lovely maternityleave in Stockholm, but I'm a
workaholic, so I was alreadybuilding my new business.
And that's when I kind of askedmy friends, I'm like, I don't
know what to do now.
Like, The world is my oyster.

Paul Povolni (18:57):
What do I do?
Well, you committed 10 years toa restaurant like that was all
you knew.
And it's quite a crazy,time-consuming business.

Ivy Malik (19:06):
Yeah.
But I'm like, somethingdifferent.
What is my next calling?
And my friends basically said,you should do what you did with
us.
And I'm like, what did I dowith you?
And then they articulated thatI obviously helped them with
their businesses and they're allcreators.
They're designers,illustrators, and stylists,
photographers.

(19:26):
And I'm like, oh, but is that ajob?
Can I

Speaker 02 (19:32):
do

Ivy Malik (19:32):
that?
Is that

Speaker 02 (19:33):
a business?

Ivy Malik (19:34):
And I looked it up and I'm like, I don't want to be
a consultant.
Like that sounds so dry.
I was imagining someone in asuit, you know, and I'm like,
nothing against suits, but youknow.
I was like, I'm not a suit.
No one's going to hire me if Isay I'm a consultant.
And then I came acrosssomething called business
coaching.
I'm like, I can do this.
I've already been doing it.

(19:55):
I've literally, I helped quitea few people start their
businesses.
I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldgive this a shot.
And then I started researchingand then here I am now.

Paul Povolni (20:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you immediately startedwith creatives or other kinds of
businesses?
Because obviously you had a lotof restaurant experience as
well, and you developed thesesystems and the psychology
combination.
And so you had kind of a reallyunique perspective.
Was it immediately withcreatives or did you do some
restaurant consulting as well?

Ivy Malik (20:26):
You know, I'm glad you asked that because I'd
forgotten.
I actually was about to answer,no, it was immediately
creatives, but actually that'snot true.
I did actually have I did havesome clients who wanted to start
a restaurant business.
And it was the easy thing forme to do because I literally can
still start a restaurant in mysleep.

(20:47):
I'm like, this is what you haveto do.
Regulations are a little bitdifferent here.
And depending on the country,there are regulations that you
need to follow.
You need to understand what thelatest thing is.
But I did start there.
And then for a little time, Ihad a business with my sister.
because I didn't want to do toomuch.

(21:07):
You know, it's hard going fromhaving a team who does anything
and everything for you to thenme being solo.
And I'm just used to operatingas if everyone else will do
things for me, which clearly Ididn't have a team.
So I brought my sister in to bemy partner and she had never
had a business before.

(21:27):
So I needed to change hermindset to become more
entrepreneurial.
We had, we tried together for,We were in ideation phase for a
long time and then we launchedit.
And then it was really toughfor her because then COVID
happened.
And during this time, that'sthe sabbatical she took to build

(21:48):
the business with me.
But she ended up becoming,obviously, the parent who will
teach and take care of thechildren during lockdown, which
was a little bit unfair for hersabbatical from her full-time
employment to be that.
But we ended it.
So we parted.
We had a prenup.
So it was easy.

(22:08):
I call it a business prenup.
So it was really easy for us tosplit.
And then my business kind oftook off.
So together, her and I actuallystruggled.
But then the moment she left, Idid really, really well.
And I've seen this pattern withme and I'm not proud of it, but
solo, I do well.

(22:31):
Because every business thatI've tried with partners, none
of them have worked.
And I know I'm the problembecause I move extremely fast in
comparison to others.
And it's really annoying forpeople because they need time to
think, they need time toconsider all options.

(22:52):
Whereas I'm like, kind of liketoday, you literally said, do
you, do you want to be on thepodcast?
And then you mentioned a fewthings and I'm like, actually,
I've got some free time today.
And you're like, let's jump on.
And I'm like, that's it.
I can do it now.
Yeah.
And that's, that pace isdifficult for people.

(23:13):
And I'm not saying I'm right orI'm good.
I'm not.
I'm saying I'm just aparticular way.
And it's hard to keep upbecause we'll think of a plan
and my mind is still going.
So night falls, I'm thinking,and it's not that I'm working
all the time, but my mind islike, and then I've invalidated

(23:35):
an idea.
By testing something.
So maybe I'll go on stories,ask a question.
And I'm like, oh, these thingsdidn't land the right way.
Or I'll observe something elsesomeone is doing.
I'm like, we're changing.
And I'll change and I'll pivotbased on the data that is
available.
And it's just too fast.
So if we have a meeting threeor four days later, I'm like,
I've moved on.
And that's my, like, I takeresponsibility for not being

(24:00):
able to adapt to the other pace.

Paul Povolni (24:04):
Yeah.
So now with that kind of apace, you know, now we're
transitioning to you helpingcreatives.
That kind of a pace forcreatives must be a little
frustrating.

Ivy Malik (24:17):
Yeah, but they're not in my business.

Paul Povolni (24:19):
They don't have to operate in my way because they
don't work for me.

Ivy Malik (24:24):
So the pace that my clients set is the pace that we
go on.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I also learned that veryearly on.
I'm not a coach that has gonethrough any qualifications.
I have the experience ofbusiness and I have the

(24:45):
experience of life.
So my business experience is mybusiness coaching
qualification.
So the first client I had, I'mlike, this is my advice.
I was advising.
I was coaching.
And I was saying, this is whatyou should do.
And, um, and I realized like Iwas building the business that I

(25:05):
would build if I were thatperson.
And that's not, that's notcompatible for that person.
I messed up big time with myfirst client and I owned it and,
you know, we worked things outand everything, but that was a
huge lesson for me.
And I'm glad I had that reallyearly on because ever since
then, I'm like, I need to findout what you want is literally
my first question.
What do you

Speaker 02 (25:24):
want?
And

Ivy Malik (25:26):
then I drag your desires out of you.
And then I figure out how we'regoing to make that happen at
the pace that you want.
And then I might question thepace because people tend to
procrastinate and don't want tomake any decisions.
But it's not the pace that Iwould have for me.
It's the best pace for theperson I'm working with.

Paul Povolni (25:45):
Right, right.
Because working with creativesis definitely a different thing
than working with...
normal people.
Because we're a strange breed.
And sometimes the pop, pop, poptype direction can sometimes be
actually frustrating for somecreatives.
Some creatives can thrive init.
I've seen them both ways.

(26:06):
I've led creatives for 30years.
And I've seen some creativeswhere they work with a pop, pop,
pop, decision, decision, dothis, do this, head in that
direction.
They love the structure.
They love the guardrails.
And others are a more freeflowing, you know, and for you
to go in there and say, pop,pop, pop, do this, you know, by
tomorrow, 10am, you know, blah,blah, blah, that for them, it's

(26:29):
like the worst thing in theworld.
And so, you know, with youhelping creatives, what was your
first experience like?
What was you mentioned some ofthose learnings that you had
early on in working with?
And what are some other thingsthat you learned with working
with creatives?

Ivy Malik (26:45):
I mean so much but also it wasn't the first time
that I was around creatives.
All my life I've been aroundthem.
My husband has an award-winningdesign agency so I've seen
firsthand how it is to have asmall agency that makes multiple
six figures and is extremelywell regarded in the industry,

(27:05):
has all the awards.
So I kind of knew the pitchingcycle and how it I saw what they
were doing.
So for me, it's not that I'mnew to the world, but I was new
in the position of, well, I'myour guide now.
And I don't know whatparticular thing.

(27:27):
I think the observation thatsurprised me the most was even
with guidance, and I don't forceanyone to do anything, but even
with guidance and even withthem saying, committing to
something that wouldn't takeaction.
And for me, that wasfrustrating.
I'm like, we agreed at thetimeline that you wanted and

(27:48):
you're still not doing it, whichis the detriment of you, not
me.
I still get paid, but I don'twant to get paid if you don't do
anything.
Like that's not, there's nojoy.
And if there's no completionwith the work that we're
supposed to be doing together.
So I've learned how to navigatethat and it's not easy and
there's no one size fits all,but it's really, me

(28:10):
understanding the individual somuch more that I can work with
that personality.
And every personality isdifferent.
Even though they exhibitsimilar traits, the way to
actually tackle it tends to bequite an individualistic
approach.

Paul Povolni (28:28):
Right, right.
Now, at what point did you feelto lean into about designers
feeling undervalued and breakingfree from overthinking and fear
and things like that?
Because you mentioned you'dworked with creatives and you
kind of consulted them evenwhile you were a restaurateur
and all that.
When did you feel that that wasthe lane that you wanted to

(28:50):
start really focusing on andhelping creatives?

Ivy Malik (28:53):
I think that's been from the beginning.
So no matter what messaging Imay have had, what I might
switch into and pivot into,whether it's sales or lead
generation or marketing oranything like that, This is the
underlying theme.
Anyone who knows me personallywill be like, why aren't you
doing money mindset coaching?
I'm like, well, because I don'twant to be a money mindset
coach.
So price, money, and for amoment I was like, I want to

(29:21):
change the school system, exceptthat I don't think that I've
got it in me to be able to dothat because I'm like, that's
where it starts.
It starts the way children aretreated in school.
That's where the undervaluingbegins of creativity.
And I'm like, I want to changeit all, except that I don't
think I can.

(29:41):
I don't believe that I can.
So I'm like, I'll do what I canwith the people who are already
doing the business.
And I'll see if I can have animpact there.
So it's definitely anunderlying theme from even
before I started the coaching.

Paul Povolni (29:55):
So when you're dealing with somebody that does
come to you and they're like, Ineed help, you know, I feel
stuck.
What are some of the firstquestions that you ask them that
helps you kind of understandthem and for them to understand
themselves?

Ivy Malik (30:11):
I really want to understand.
So first I have to build trustand they need to feel safe in
letting me know what their innerfeelings are.
But ultimately, I need to knowwhat they want.
I really do start there.
And they can just paint thepicture.
And it's rarely money.

(30:32):
Nobody is wanting money.
Everybody just wants to work ongood, good, interesting
projects

Speaker 02 (30:39):
with

Ivy Malik (30:39):
clients who value them.
And value does not mean money.
It's like, I value you and yourdesign and your creativity and
the way you think about theproject.
That's the value that they'rewanting to see recognized.
So when I understand value,what they actually want and how
that need is going to befulfilled for them.

(31:00):
What does that look like?
I get to understand whatthey're really after.
That's the starting point foreverything because that becomes
a foundation.
I'm like, okay, if you're goingto, sometimes it's an easy fix
then because when they realizethat what they want, they have,
and they haven't recognized theywant a little bit more, but
they haven't faced it.

(31:20):
They haven't admitted it tothemselves that's when they can
that's when they can actuallylevel up to the next to the next
stage we're like oh actually Ido want some more money I feel
like I could have more money andthat would be great because
then I can have a better lifebut I'm not in it for the money

(31:41):
I'm in it to have a goodbusiness life and it would just
be great so the money aspectcomes in, but there's no client
I have who is driven by money.
And I don't take those clientseither.
Because I specialize in sales,I get a lot of people going
like, yeah, I just want to makemore money.
I'm like, why?

(32:01):
And then I just say no to them.
Because making more money is,yes, for the creators, that's
probably the line that I say.
But the money is the byproductof what you do.
And that's a given.
So it's always going to happen.
If you're in business, you'regoing to make money.

(32:21):
The question then is, how muchmoney?
And do you want to create abusiness that is going to grow
as you can do more interestingwork?
Well, let's just get you paidwell for that while you have
fun.

Paul Povolni (32:34):
Right.
Now, where does theoverthinking happen for them?
Where do you have to startchipping away at overthinking?

Speaker 02 (32:46):
It's not

Ivy Malik (32:48):
often on the craft or the skill that they have.
There, they feel confident.
My clients feel confident inwhat they do.
They've rarely come to me andsaid like, oh, I have this
design and I'm struggling.
They don't come to me becausethey have creative block.
And I know that I'm a businesscoach, so probably that isn't

(33:09):
the problem that they're facing.
It's usually price.
That's the first.
They're like, I don't know ifthis is a fair price.
I don't know if this is, Idon't know what to charge.
Those are the early things thatthey will say.
And then, oh, actually, there'sone design part they do over

(33:31):
their own brand.

Paul Povolni (33:33):
Ah, okay.
Let's talk about

Ivy Malik (33:36):
that.
Maybe I should rebrand if I'mrepositioning.
Maybe I should tweak something.
That isn't really overthinking.
Actually, that's just avoidancebecause they're like, oh, my
comfort zone is this.
I

Paul Povolni (33:51):
know how to do this.
I'm going to go to this.

Ivy Malik (33:54):
Yeah, they can control that.
So overthinking usually is onpretty much every business
aspect.
Not everyone has businessproblems, but there is every
element of the business aspectthat they overthink on.
But mostly what I see is aroundprice.
and asking for the money.

(34:15):
So they're like, oh, can Ireally ask for that much?
Can I have this conversationand say that it's going to be
10x what I normally wouldcharge.
But there's so many differentoverthinking topics.
I don't know where to begin.

Paul Povolni (34:30):
Yeah.
So let's start from thebeginning.
A designer comes to you andsays, I'm stuck.
I need to grow my business.
I'm not making as much as I'dlike to be making.
What I think is I need to do aredesign.
I think my logo sucks.
I'm not happy with my logo.
I want to change that.
I want to change my branding.

(34:51):
What do you do to get them overthat misconception, if it is a
misconception.
Sometimes it could be, but ifit is a misconception, how do
you help them get over thatsaying that the problem is the
visuals?

Ivy Malik (35:05):
Okay.
So I'll be like, okay, that'sgreat.
Thank you for telling me that.
Is it okay if I ask you a fewquestions about your business
and just to understand whereyou're at so I can have a better
picture of the full picture?
of the full business.
And I'll start asking themabout where their clients come
from, how much they charge, whenwas the last time they had a
sales call, and how many salescalls they had, how many times,

(35:26):
how many visitors, people comingto the website.
You know, I need to find out,what I'm trying to find out is
what is their lead generationstrategy?
Then I'm looking at what istheir sales skills?
And then I'm looking at, okay,well, how much money are they
making each month?
And What have they done to try?
So I'm trying to find out howmuch action have they taken on

(35:46):
the business aspect of things.
And when I understand how muchaction they've taken there, then
I'll be like, look, you maywant to rebrand.
And I think that's a great ideaif that's how you feel.
You're the designer.
You know your skill.
But why don't we test out a fewthings first to see how we can
fix your business foundationsfirst?
And by that time, I probablywould have told them about their

(36:09):
positioning.
The positioning was probably alittle bit broad and weak and
needs refinement.
They probably don't have aclear offer.
So it's not clear what theircustomers are going to get when
they land on the website ortheir Instagram account or
something like that.
They've By this stage, theywould have realized, okay, there

(36:31):
are a few things I need to workon.
I try not to overwhelm everyonebecause I'm just showing all
the things that

Paul Povolni (36:37):
I could do.
It'll paralyze people too,yeah.

Ivy Malik (36:39):
Yeah, I don't want to paralyze them.
So once they see that there issome work to be done, then I
would obviously say, well...
Why don't we work on thebusiness foundation first?
Because out of all the workthat we're going to do, you may
get inspired to change yourbrand again.

(36:59):
And why don't we wait and seehow that may turn out?
Something along those lines.
I mean, that would be mystrategy in this moment that
you've just described.

Paul Povolni (37:08):
Yeah.
Well, and I think fordesigners, you know, for them,
the easiest thing is to blamethe thing that they can change
that they can fix that's easyfor them and you know being
honest about some of the otherthings and you mentioned several
things that i definitely wantto kind of pull that thread and
talk about a little more uhyou'd mentioned you know about
the leads coming in and you knowhow they're getting a new

(37:30):
business you mentioned referralsas well i think i think you
mentioned referrals all

Ivy Malik (37:35):
the people are relying on referrals right now

Paul Povolni (37:37):
all of them right and so that's what i was going
to talk about so if they say umyou know right now it's
referrals i finish one job.
I get another one from somebodythat's happy with my business
and they refer me.
How do you help them to movebeyond that as a primary
strategy?

Ivy Malik (37:54):
So first of all, I just want to say referrals are
gold.
I think they're the easiestclients to convert.
They should never stop.
Let's never remove referrals asa source of leads.
They're beautiful, they'regreat, but being reliant on just
that, that's the dangerousgame.
So if someone comes to me andsays that They only rely on
referrals and they want toexpand and do other things.

(38:18):
One of the things that I hateabout the coaching industry is
that there's aone-size-fits-all.
It's like, oh, do this, andthen you'll get leads.
No, you won't.
If it doesn't fit you, if youcan't nurture that system or
that flow, it's not going towork.
So I take a very...

(38:38):
individualistic approach, verypersonalized approach.
I need to find out who you are.
What are your strengths?
What do you like?
What you don't like?
Some people hate social media.
They don't want to be on it.
So how can I take your beststrengths?
And even if you don't like todo marketing, there has to be
something.
So the rule is if you want tobe doing marketing, you have to

(38:59):
choose something.
So we have to choose the bestof the worst if needed.
So I have one client who says,I don't like social media.
I don't want to be on video, sono webinars.
I don't want to do podcasting.
And I'm an introvert.
And I'm just like, okay, do youlike to write?
And she's like, I can write.
I'm like, okay, great.
We'll go down the writingroute.

(39:20):
What can we do?
So then there's the email.
I'm like, do you have money tospend on ads?
So email strategy plus ads,that's our route for her.
Blogs, obviously.
So building on the SEO, guestblogging, and And anything that
is in the written form but noton social media is good for this

(39:40):
client.
So that is a completelydifferent strategy.
My other client is like, I lovesocial media.
I want to dominate.
And they're on LinkedIn,they're on TikTok, they're on
Instagram.
I'm like, please, just do one.
And they're like, no, I'm goingto do it all.
I'm like, great, okay, do itall, but do one really, really
well.
So, you know.

(40:01):
Everyone has a differentstrategy.
Maybe there's a podcastingstrategy.
How can I meet my ideal clientsfrom a podcast?
Or how can I use the podcast toattract more people?
So if someone speaks reallywell and they haven't even
thought about it, I'm like,look, we've been sitting here,
we've been talking for 15minutes nonstop and it's super
engaging.
Do you have a podcast?

(40:22):
No, I don't.
Do you want to do a podcast?
Oh my gosh, that soundsamazing.
Now I found a lead generatingstrategy for them.
So...
The key is to understand allthe different marketing systems
so that you can implement it inthe business for the person who
can benefit from it the most.
And that's the ultimate primarystrategy.

(40:45):
And then after that, thingsjust become easier because you
enjoy it.
You enjoy writing.
You enjoy being on socialmedia.
You're going to sustain itbecause marketing and business
is forever.
It's not going to stop.
Because the way, even if youcan have a system that
perpetuates itself, it needsmanagement.
So ads, you can't just put adsout and leave them to run.

(41:09):
You have to make sure thatthey're responding as they
should.
And if they get fatigued, youneed to update them.
How do you know?
You need to do some marketresearch and gain some more
insights in order to actuallycreate a new ad strategy.
So marketing is forever.
And I think the sooner mostentrepreneurs can accept that,

(41:31):
the better.

Paul Povolni (41:31):
Right, right.
And then one of the otherthings that you had mentioned
too, So referrals are not ideal,but they're awesome because
that's people that love you,share you, and tell others about
you.
That's an amazing way to grow abusiness, but it's not a secure
or a...

Ivy Malik (41:51):
Reliable,

Paul Povolni (41:51):
maybe.
Reliable.
Yeah, that's the word I waslooking for.
It's not a reliable way to doit because you've got to get
other ways of generating leadsthrough the door.
But one of the other things youhad mentioned that you do early
on is looking at positioning.
So talk about that for a littlebit.
It's a term that maybe somebodyhas heard, maybe they've heard
it, but they're not quite surewhat it is.
When it comes to positioning, Ithink it's critical for any

(42:13):
business, particularlydesigners, but talk about
positioning and how that mattersand how that makes an impact on
a business.

Ivy Malik (42:21):
I think in really simple terms, it's the way that
I would describe it would be,well, if you're going to get
picked, how will people know topick you?
And you're Your positioningcomprises of your values.
It needs to be there.

(42:41):
And it's not all packed intoone sentence, but it's the whole
brand itself needs to bepositioned in a certain way.
Who are you for?
Who are you against?
Your price is really importantin this as well because it
positions you.
How do you want to beperceived?

(43:02):
Who do you want to select you?
All of that is extremelyimportant.
And I use niching strategy inthis, and I know people hate
this.
I think it's the simplest way.
I like to take simple ways.
I don't like to complicatethings.
And niche marketing strategy isa really easy way to start

(43:23):
positioning yourself.
And the way that I help peopledo this is, because there's so
many different ways to do this,select a sector.
let's just say skincare for nowand then select a
characteristic.
So maybe it's vegan skincare orI'll just go with, I can't

(43:47):
think of, I'm just going to gowith vegan skincare for now
because I bought some veganskincare earlier today.
So vegan skincare.
And then the more defined youare in selecting who it's for,
again, Let me just rewind.
I think a lot of people thinkthat being niche as a designer
is like, oh, I do brandstrategy.

(44:08):
I do branding.
I do logos.
That is a service you provide.
So alongside the service youprovide, if you add the service,
who is foreign orcharacteristic to it, you're
going to have a more uniqueniche.
Now that could be everybody.
So then how can youdifferentiate yourself against

(44:29):
all the other people who workwith vegan skincare?
And the way to position that isgoing to be through the market
research that you do byinterviewing people and
understanding what they want,how they want to be spoken to.
And you'll use that language inorder to position yourself as

(44:51):
the chosen person, by chosenbrand, by the people that you're
actually wanting to work with.
I mean, that's the way I do it.
And I know there are expertsout there who are doing it
differently.

Paul Povolni (45:03):
No, that's great.
In

Ivy Malik (45:04):
my world, that's for me.

Paul Povolni (45:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think positioningdefinitely makes a huge
difference.
And the more you can niche downdefinitely helps, even within
vegan...
skincare, is it for teenagers?
Is it for senior adults?
And niching that down as muchas possible, even based on
ethnicity and based on regionsand based on sun exposure.

(45:28):
And you can get really nichewith a lot of those things and
then really dominate that marketin a way that you couldn't if
you were just a skincarecompany.

Ivy Malik (45:37):
Exactly.
And there's so many...
There's so much resistancetowards niching.
So one of the analogies that Iuse is, let me choose, I have so
many different ones.
Okay, let's imagine that I'm ina huge room full of hundreds of

(45:57):
people.
And I've lost you, you and ourfriends.
And I'm like, oh, Paul, he'samazing.
But I want to recommend you.
And I met someone in this room.
but I don't know where you are.
So I'm like, oh, there's a guycalled Paul.
I really want you to meet him.
When you see him, you must sayhi.

(46:19):
But there's no way to find you.
Now, if you're niched, I'd belike, Paul, stand in the upper
right corner.
I'll send people to youwhenever I see you, right?
You're niched in that upperright corner.
And I'll be like, in this bigroom, I'm like, you know what?
Go to the top right corner overthere.
You'll see Paul.
He's absolutely fabulous.
Boom, people are going there.
It's so easy to direct peoplewhen you're niche.

(46:41):
And the beauty of it is you'restill in that room with the
hundreds of people and everyoneelse can also come and work with
you if they want to, becausethere's someone up in the top
right corner over there thateveryone's wanting to hang out
with.
I want to go there too.

Paul Povolni (46:57):
That's why

Ivy Malik (46:59):
niching is so beautiful.

Paul Povolni (47:00):
Right.
Well, and then also, like youwere saying, it allows people to
accurately recommend you.
And, you know, if you're about,especially if you're about the
referrals too, you know, is howdo they recommend you?
And so, you know, it would be,you need to go to Ivy because
she has organic skincareproducts for, you know, young
adults that live in sunny areas,you know, like Florida or

(47:24):
wherever it might be in Hawaii.
And she's the person you needto talk to about that, that need
that you have, as opposed to,you know, well, you've got a
specific problem.
Well, Ivy kind of doesskincare, but I don't know
whether she can help you, youknow, type thing.
So I think that's where thatpositioning really makes a big
difference in any kind of abusiness is it allows people to

(47:47):
know how to recommend you aswell.
The other thing that you'dmentioned is, you know, once you
kind of get, find out wheretheir flow is coming from, you
find out, you know, wherethey're positioned, you know,
you're moving into their, what'sthe next step?
What's the next thing afterthat they start moving into?
Is it offer?
Is it pricing?
Where do you go after that?

Ivy Malik (48:07):
So we'll go into offer and pricing.
Let me think.
There are a lot of moving partsthat happen concurrently.
So it's not really linear inbusiness.
You might get a lead comethrough and you need sales
training.
So It really is dependent onwhere they are in business.
But if we go in a linear way,like, okay, so now it's the

(48:31):
price and offer.
I don't love offers.
I'm not a huge fan of offers,but it's what the market wants.
So I give the market what itneeds.
I love offerless selling.
I love being able to just hopon a call and understand what
people need and provide themwhat they need within my
expertise.

Paul Povolni (48:51):
Why are you against offers?

Ivy Malik (48:54):
Limiting.
I can feel like it's limiting.
I think that everyone shouldhave a measurable
transformation.
So something that is atransformation that you provide.
So that's great communicationfor your social website or any
way you print what you do anddescribe what you do.
That's really key and that'sreally important.

(49:14):
But with an offer that attachesa package to it, I don't love
that.
I...
I like for people to jump oncalls with people who have
problems with the transformationthat they require and then see
the kind of offer that would besuitable for them.
But not everyone is skilled atthat.

(49:37):
So I also have to meet myclients where they are.
So some have an amazing...
You know, some are fast andthey can think on their feet and
go, I can see this.
I can see this.
I can see this.
Great.
I know how I can support you.
And this is how much it willcost.
Some of my clients, they needto know, they need to go away
and think, which is why mostpeople don't give a price on the

(50:01):
sales call.
So what they'll do is they'llneed to think about it.
So which means they need tocome in to the call with a
pre-purchase conceived pricethat they're going to sell,
which also means they'reassuming there's a problem that
is needing to be solved, whichis why I don't like, I like
offer less selling in thatrespect.

Paul Povolni (50:22):
So, you know, with, when it comes to something
like creativity and creativesolutions and creative services,
you know, a lot of times theanswer is when somebody says,
how much is this going to cost?
The answer is most of the timefor creatives from what I've
heard is that they say depends.
So how do you help designersget beyond saying that?

(50:47):
Or is that okay?
Or how do you help them toanswer that question of, so how
much is this going to cost whenthey're on that sales call?

Ivy Malik (50:57):
So they need to gather all the information
before they even get to thatpoint.
So the way to never have to sayit depends is by gaining the
information you need to satisfythe answer before it actually
shows up.
The other way is to price in away that you're always
profitable and always know yourfloor.

(51:19):
So if you're saying it depends,I'm going to make an assumption
here which may not be accuratefor all.
So disclaimer there that thiswon't fit all.
If you're saying it depends,it's likely that you haven't had
enough sales calls to knowexactly how much everything
should be costing.
But the moment you sit in frontof someone, you're like, okay,

(51:40):
hmm.
business of 50 people you havethree products you're selling
okay i'm making these randomnumbers up there are 50 products
you're selling you need apackaging design for this range
is three different designs youkind of will know what it will
cost because you have theexperience behind you because
you've done it before you'vepriced it before so you you kind

(52:01):
of know a business like thishas a has a budget of 35 or 45
or 100 you already know thatwhich means that The depends
isn't going to be dependent onwhether you have to think about
it and see how much does eachpackaging cost or how, you know,
you won't have to do all ofthat because your instinct to be
already know.
And you already know yourfloor.
You know that if I get 20K forthis job, I'll be fine.

(52:24):
Now I just need to make sure Ican get the most out of this
based on what they want.
So what they're able to spend.
So suddenly it's not a questionof, am I profitable?
The question is, how much moreprofitable will I be?

Unknown (52:37):
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (52:40):
Yeah, I like that.
And it does come fromexperience and it does come from
forethought, you know, oflooking at history, looking at
what you estimate the time wouldtake and saying, you know,
projects like this typicallystart at, you know, and or range
between this amount and thisamount.
Because it also helps you, Iguess, filter out, you In those

(53:04):
sales calls, people that arejust tire-kicking, that expected
something for far less, itsaves you a bunch of time if
you're able to, within thatphone call, give them a price
because you're no longer havingto then get back to them and
then back and forth, back andforth.
And finally, they say, well,it's not in my budget.
And so I would guess that wouldhelp as well.

(53:25):
With designers, when it comesto pricing...
That can be sometimes tough forespecially young designers, new
designers, designers thathaven't done it for a while.
What are some of the challengesthat you help them with so they
can price with confidence?

Ivy Malik (53:42):
Okay.
So there are two groups here,the skilled and the non-skilled.
So let's take the skilled onesfor a second.
So with the skilled ones, theyhave several years behind them.
sometimes even 15, and they'recharging less than the

(54:03):
graduates.
So they don't know what's outthere.
Biggest problem in the industryis that people don't know what
their peers are charging.
Everyone's like, I don't wantto tell other people.
It's so

Speaker 02 (54:15):
secretive, yeah.

Ivy Malik (54:16):
Yeah, super secretive.
What if people were just openabout it?
It would just improveeveryone's status.
Everyone would be able tounderstand, oh, All my peers are
charging 5,000 for a logo andI'm charging 200.
I should change my price.
You know, people don't know.

(54:39):
And then the range becomes sohuge.
And that we can't change.
So we'll be like, okay, let'sjust go with that.
So we've got the skilledcreatives who have skill behind
them.
So my first role is to let themknow that they are skilled.
They think that they still,every creative I know, they're

(55:03):
still thinking they can improvetheir craft and they can and
their skill.
I'm not saying stop doing that.
But at some point you need torecognize that I actually do
have a lot of skill.
I am good at what I do.
And the imposter obviouslycreeps in there and say like,
oh, maybe I'm not good enoughbecause people aren't willing to
pay me what I want.
So they start devaluingthemselves even more because

(55:24):
they think They feel that, well,if I can't charge more, then
maybe I'm not worth it.
And that's the first hurdle toget over.
So once they recognize thatthey're skilled, and once they
hear what other people arecharging, they actually feel
ready.
They're like, oh, okay.

(55:44):
So I had one client who didthis.
He was charging $1,500 for awebsite.
And I'm like, oh, I'm like, howlong have you been doing this?
I checked, I check all thethings.
I'm like, are you good?
Are people, are you deliveringwhat they, what they want?
Are people coming back and arethey happy?
Are they referring you?
When I get all the check marks,I'm like, okay, so just wanted
to let you know that I haveclients in your, in your caliber

(56:07):
who are charging 10K plus.
He's like, really?
Two weeks later, he just, he,he, he sold the 10K website.
All he needed was the knowledgeand the permission that, he's
good enough and that others canothers are doing it so therefore
he can't do so everyone'ssituation is different but the
skill creatives it's a loteasier to kind of make them see

(56:29):
and then it's about gaining thatconfidence and the confidence
is from doing a lot of peopleforget this because the moment
they're like ivy i just doubledmy rates and they said yes i'm
like yeah do you want to doubleit again okay i'm gonna try you
know

Speaker 02 (56:46):
yeah

Ivy Malik (56:47):
so We gain confidence from trying new things.
And when it doesn't succeed, itdoesn't need to knock you back.
But when it does succeed, it'sconfirmation that you're on the
right path.
And you won't know unless youtry.
So go ahead and just try.

(57:08):
With those who are not skilled,I don't usually work with
entry-level creatives.
So I cannot speak fromexperience on this.
But I would definitely say youneed to gain the skill.
Skill is important.
So I am not an advocate ofcharging an exuberant amount of

(57:30):
money if you don't have theskill to deliver.
I'm not on that faction.
A lot of people hear me say,charge more, charge more,
because that's a narrative thatI have, but they never read the
full context in which I saythis.
So I'm saying it here, now,loud and clear.
If you can't deliver to theexpectations of the client, you

(57:50):
have no business charging morethan what they value it as.
So the client is still theperson who's setting the level
that is appropriate for It's notme, it's not you, it's not the
designer.
The buyer, if they are notgoing to be satisfied with a
product, even if you chargeless, you're overcharging.

(58:13):
If you're charging 10K, they'renot satisfied because they're
like, this is not what I askedfor.
I'm not talking aboutsubjective, I like it or not.
I'm talking about the actualdelivery to the standard that
you said that it's going to bedelivered at.
Then you're overcharging.
then you're not chargingcorrectly, I should say.
It's not even overcharging.

(58:33):
So with new people, I would sayjust...
Oh, I need a specific scenario.
I'm not sure if I can...
Just do the work and look atyour peers.
I think that's what I would do.
Look at your peers of the sameexperience and see what is the

(58:56):
going rate there to...
to give you an idea of what tocharge.
And I'm not a fan of saying,look, you must charge what
everyone else is chargingbecause you could be an
extremely skilled person withoutthe experience.
So in my charging moretrifecta, I have three things,
confidence, experience, andskill.
And skill and experience aretwo different things.

(59:17):
You can have experience of 10years and be a shit designer.

Speaker 02 (59:20):
Right, right.

Ivy Malik (59:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Paul Povolni (59:47):
For me, it would be very similar.
I love exactly what you said.
I love the matrix of theconfidence, experience, and
skill.
I think definitelyunderstanding What else is out
there and what others arepricing and being fair based on
your skills and the level ofsolution you solve.

(01:00:10):
If you solve a $10,000 problem,you need to be paid $10,000 as
opposed to it's a $10,000problem and you're only charging
$1,500 for it.
And so you definitely need tolook at how big of a problem it
is and how valuable is it forthat problem to be solved and

(01:00:32):
then charge Yeah, I love that.
I agree.
Now, when it comes to sales,you know, for designers, you

(01:01:05):
know, that's the tough thing,you know, for creatives, for
anybody with a creative, youknow, the sales part is probably
one of the things that theyfeel that they are not capable
of.
And I think they are, but theymight feel that they're not.
I don't do sales.

(01:01:31):
I'm not a salesperson.
I don't want to be salesy.

Ivy Malik (01:01:34):
Yeah.
So if you said that to him, I'mlike, that's great.
You don't have to be asalesperson.
You don't have to be salesy.
We're off to a really goodstart.
Do you want to make some money?
Shall we figure out how to dothis without being salesy?
The way you see me right now,this is how I am.

(01:01:55):
I'm not deadly serious all thetime.
I tease my clients.
I joke around.
This is me in a coachingsession.
The thing that we want to getto is what the fear really is.
You need to understand why.
And when we understand why theydon't want to sell, I actually

(01:02:22):
haven't come across anyone whorepeatedly wouldn't do it.
Taking sales calls, they're allwilling.
Everyone's willing to try.
So that's a great thing.
The thing that's hard for themto do is actually share the
price.
So that's where a lot of thework goes.

(01:02:44):
How do I talk about money onthe call?
How do I get them to tell mewhat the budget is?
How do I deduce the budget?
Because you don't always haveto ask them to tell you the
budget.
You can just deduce it and thenconfirm it.
So once we find out the fear,if it's a deep-rooted problem

(01:03:06):
around the sales aspect, then wecan tackle that.
But it's the same with thepricing.
Like, What is it that's holdingthem back from actually talking
about money?
And then we do a lot of salesrole plays.
I have one coaching session,which is just sales training.

(01:03:26):
And we'll play different gamesthat I've concocted on how to do
the role play.
Sometimes I guess my problem isliterally just that, ask

Speaker 02 (01:03:36):
me

Ivy Malik (01:03:36):
questions.
Ultimately, what I find is inall the sales calls that I've
analyzed for my clients and I'vedone hundreds of them.
First of all, people don't wantto record the calls and it's
essential.
If you're in business, pleaserecord your calls because if you
can go back and watch yourself,which is excruciating, you'll

(01:04:00):
see where you went wrong.
Now, when you look back at arecording and you see what's
happening.
It's going to be easy to judgeand critique.
So every time that happens,don't be so harsh on yourself,
but do learn from it.
Do pick up the things.
And the way that I usuallyanalyze a cause is I do it on, I
don't watch it several timesover.

(01:04:22):
I watch it once.
I'll pause and say, here, righthere is an opening you missed.
I'll know they missed itbecause I would have heard the
question they went into.
And what I train people to dois to have better conversations.
And when they have betterconversations, they don't fear
having sales calls anymore.
They're like, oh, I didn't evenfeel like you were selling to

(01:04:45):
me.
So when we do the role plays,I'll sometimes be the person
selling.
And then they'll be like, no, Ifelt comfortable in the
conversation.
I felt that you weren'tpushing.
I'm like, I wasn't pushing, butI was clear.
I was clear in what I wasproposing.
But you never felt pushedbecause maybe I used a different

(01:05:07):
type of body language or toneor the words I used were chosen
in a certain way that it wouldfeel nonviolent.
So once they understand how toactually have a conversation,
they feel more confident goinginto the conversation.
But then the actual exercise Igive them to get comfortable

(01:05:32):
sharing the price is is a reallysimple one.
I literally tell them to facethe mirror.
And I did this thing with oneof my clients.
He's a coach actually.
So he used to charge 60 poundsan hour.
And I'm like, what do you wantto charge?

(01:05:55):
He's like 500.
He's like, but I just can't.
I'm like, okay, great.
His homework was go, and tellyour whole family you charge 500
pounds an hour.
I needed him to get used tojust saying it.
To like, hey, wife, I charge500 pounds an hour.
Hey, daughter, I charge 500pounds an hour.
And just keep saying, keepsaying, you know, it took him

(01:06:16):
about a week.
And I'm like, how much do youcharge?
And the way he said it on thecall, he's like, 500 pounds an
hour.
I'm like, no, go back homework.
You're not there

Paul Povolni (01:06:26):
yet.
Keep saying it, yeah.

Ivy Malik (01:06:28):
Just getting used to saying it is going to make it
more comfortable.
You don't say price out loud toanyone.
Of course, it's going to soundweird to say it's £500 to work
with me for one hour, or it's£10,000 for a brand strategy.
If you don't say it out loud,you're going to get scared by
your own voice and your ownwords.
I don't think I've ever said toanyone's 100,000 pounds to work

(01:06:52):
with me.
I just felt a little bit scaredright now.
I'm like, wow,

Paul Povolni (01:06:56):
shit.
Sorry, can I

Ivy Malik (01:06:57):
swear?
I don't know.

Paul Povolni (01:06:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Ivy Malik (01:06:59):
100,000 for like coaching with me?
That's insane.
Of course, I'm going to bescared of saying that.
I'm human too.
But if I say it enough...
then the time that I say it, atleast I can hear myself say
that I'm used to it.
So mirror work and talking tothe family.
I also say, if you've got kids,sell to your kids.
Your kids are like, they'regoing to ask you questions then,

(01:07:23):
or try to sell to them.
They're going to be the bestkind of sales role play that
you've ever had.

Paul Povolni (01:07:30):
Yeah, that is so good, man.
I think for somebody that's ahead smack right there because
your words are powerful and thewords that escape your lips are
super powerful.
And when it comes to pricingand talking to somebody about
what you do, if you've neversaid the words, it's hard when
it first comes out.

(01:07:51):
And so practicing, like yousaid, in front of a mirror,
saying it to your family, sayingit out loud, voice record on
your phone and say the wholething Just get the words out
past your lips.
It's incredible how liberatingand how freeing and how
transformative speaking thosethings.

(01:08:12):
That's why the words we speakare so important.
I love that.
Well, I can't believe howquickly time has gone.
And thank you so much for yourtime.
This has been an amazingconversation.
And before we wrap this up, Iusually ask this of guests.
I've started doing thisrecently, and it's a great way
to just make sure that nothinggets unsaid.

(01:08:35):
But what's a question that youwish I'd asked you or a head
smack that you'd like to sharethat maybe we didn't cover
already?

Ivy Malik (01:08:43):
I feel like you should have an answer, but you
ask me really good questions.
You're a great host.
Hmm.
Oh, now I'm going to come upempty.

Paul Povolni (01:08:54):
Oh, that's okay.
That's okay.
No, it is quite a deep questionor a tough question, especially
if you haven't prepared.
But I know sometimes I get achance to have these
conversations with people thatare just brilliant at what they
do.
And sometimes there's somethingthat comes to mind as we're
talking that they're like, well,I really wanted to say this,

(01:09:15):
but he moved on to the nextquestion.
And so I give opportunity forthat.
And if you don't have one,that's absolutely fine as well.
So I'll give you anothersecond.
What's that?

Ivy Malik (01:09:27):
I feel like I'm letting you down.

Paul Povolni (01:09:29):
Oh, absolutely not.
No, this has been amazing.
So much gold and so much value,especially for creative
entrepreneurs.
And even just your journey frombeing a restaurateur has just
been a wonderful share and Iloved hearing about it.
So if people want to work withyou, if there's a creative
entrepreneur and they'restruggling, they just need

(01:09:49):
somebody to be there to helpthem, to challenge them, to take
them to the next level, how dothey get a hold of you?

Ivy Malik (01:09:55):
You can follow me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, connect
with me there.
If you're listening to thepodcast, I'm happy to answer any
questions that have come upfrom listening to this
conversation.
And of course, my website,ivymalik.com.
So it's my name on everything,ivymalikofficial on Instagram.

Paul Povolni (01:10:12):
Perfect.
Well, I will have the link inthe show notes and this will be
out.
And I think you're going to beable to help a lot of creatives.
They're going to rethink someof the things that they're
doing.
I think you've shared someincredible head smacks and great
ideas and thoughts on running acreative business that I think
a lot of the ideas are relevant.
awesome even just for runningany kind of a business.
I think your mirror exercise,speaking the words out, if

(01:10:35):
you're any kind of business,whether you're a roofer, whether
you're a mechanic, whetheryou're a coach, whether you're a
therapist, just simply evendoing that exercise alone will
take you to the next levelbecause getting it out the first
time, saying the words firsttime, just like saying I love
you the first time to yoursignificant other, the first

(01:10:55):
time is the toughest time, butthen after you've said it, it's
a lot easier.
And so I think what you'veshared today has just been
amazing.
And I think it's going to helpa lot of people.
So thank you so much, Ivy, forcoming on.

Ivy Malik (01:11:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
You do ask incrediblequestions.
And you know, I just thought ofthe answer to your head smack
question.

Paul Povolni (01:11:12):
All right.
Can I respond?
Yes, absolutely.
I

Ivy Malik (01:11:15):
think the question that I would, the question is,
is there something beyond thestrategy that would change the
fate of the business.
I don't know if that's theright question, but something
along those lines.
Am I meant to

Paul Povolni (01:11:32):
answer the question?
Yes, absolutely answer it.

Ivy Malik (01:11:34):
Yeah.
So I think that ourconversation has been incredibly
strategic.
We've obviously hit on someemotional notes as well, but
it's been a strategic one.
And I think that there are twoelements to business and running
a business.
One part is a strategic part.
And I obviously talked a lotabout the person, the

(01:11:58):
individual, but that part is theenergetic part.
And I don't come across as aspiritual person, and I don't
want to be defined as aspiritual coach.
But I find that if there's noenergetic alignment with what
you do, and you only work onstrategy, and you only work on
the superficial level, and youdon't go internal and actually

(01:12:18):
align yourself fully with whoyou are and what you want, then
there's usually a disconnect andit doesn't work.
And I see this time and timeagain with people who say, I do
all the right things.
I tick all the check boxes, butit's not working.
And I do the mindset stuff.
And I'm like, okay, let'sreview.
And I'm like, yes, you aredoing all the things.

(01:12:38):
What is it that's missing?
And at that point, we actuallygo into a much more deeper
level, which is the spiritualside of things.
And I don't mean to gocompletely woo, but energy.
Like, what is the energy you'rebringing to the call?
What is the energy you'rebringing into your marketing?
Because at an energetic level,there's also connections to be

(01:13:00):
made.

Paul Povolni (01:13:02):
Right, right.
Yeah, I love that.

Ivy Malik (01:13:04):
That opens up a whole new chapter.

Paul Povolni (01:13:05):
Man, I know.
Now I'm like, I've gotquestions popping up in my head
now.
Yeah, I love that.
Okay.
That's really good.
So for somebody that's wherethey're stuck, that's where
they're, okay, now I've got thestrategy.
I think I've got the strategy.
I'm feeling a little morecomfortable with my pricing and

(01:13:27):
my sales.
I feel fine with my creativeability and all that.
How do you get them to startthinking about that a little
deeper?
Are there questions that youask them?
Are there things that you do?

Ivy Malik (01:13:42):
So I'm a deeply emotional person and very often,
I even notice this in mycoaching.
I don't say like, oh, how, howdoes that, I don't even know
what the other question wouldbe, but I'm like, oh, how do you
feel about that?
I always say feel.
It's like, are you connectingwith your body?
What is your body telling you?
So I, it, only 98% of the brainis in the, sorry, 2% of our

(01:14:09):
brain where is in the awarenessregion.
Everything else is conscious.
Now, if that's the case, how dowe access that?
Well, our body speaks to us.
Our body is able to tell usthings that we're not
consciously thinking about.
So if we can tune into our bodyand listen to our body, we're
going to know much more.
So our intuition, our gutinstinct, our emotions, they are

(01:14:35):
cues which If we ignore andjust think about, okay, these
are the strategies that I shoulddo.
This is what I read about.
This is what someone told me Ishould do.
We're going to miss the deeperthings.
You know, I have some clientswho we literally throw out all
the strategies.
I'm like, stop, we're not doingthis.

(01:14:58):
And I literally just do whatthey feel that they should do
and they blow up.

Speaker 02 (01:15:06):
Wow.

Ivy Malik (01:15:06):
And it's, It goes against all marketing rules.
It goes against the salesrules.
It's just a strategy for thembecause it just matches the
energy at which they're at.
I have a past client.
In the past three months, hehas got another 100,000

(01:15:28):
followers on Instagram from justdoing this.
It's insane.
Like the growth.
I'm in touch with a lot of mypast clients.
I'm always looking at like, youknow, what's happening, what's
growing, what's not working.
And so I think it's so crucialin business to look at

(01:15:50):
everything as a unique thing.
I couldn't find my words there.
So everyone is unique.
Every situation is unique.
And we need to find somethingthat fits that particular
situation.
It's not one size fits all.
It's not like, oh, do this andthen you will gain success.

(01:16:11):
You may not.
We need to look at the wholepicture and see what will
actually work.
And testing.
I'm a big fan ofexperimentation.

Paul Povolni (01:16:20):
Now, when somebody doesn't have that in place,
what does that look like?

Ivy Malik (01:16:24):
You mean the energetic side?

Paul Povolni (01:16:25):
Yeah.

Ivy Malik (01:16:28):
There's a disconnect, right?
You know, sometimes you readposts, you're like, technically
this is a good post, but I don'tget it.
Like, I don't feel it.
I think it's that thing.

Speaker 02 (01:16:37):
Things just don't...
Things don't work.
I think it's just connection.
Yeah,

Paul Povolni (01:16:47):
yeah.
Well, and you could sense itand...
Yeah, and this has been a greatbonus session.

(01:17:09):
Or you feel disconnected, youfeel trapped, you feel like I'm
not fully the me I need to be,like somebody who goes and

(01:17:30):
studies psychology, right?
And they wanted to be in thecreative stuff, right?
You just, you know, your energywas not focused in the right
place, even though you excelledat it, and you did well at it.
But that's not where your heartand your desires and your
passions were.

Ivy Malik (01:17:47):
You're a great host.

Paul Povolni (01:17:50):
This has been so much fun, Ivy.
Thank you so much for comingon.
And be sure to check outivymallick.com.
Reach out to Ivy.
She's pretty active on thesocials.
Reach out through Instagram.
And I'll have these links in myshow notes.
And I would love for you toconnect with her, especially if
you're a creative entrepreneurand you need somebody on your
side.
Ivy's the perfect person.
And I'm sure, as you've seen inthis interview, she'd be a

(01:18:13):
great asset or a great person tobe connected with.
So thank you very much, Ivy.

Ivy Malik (01:18:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
You

Speaker 02 (01:18:20):
are

Paul Povolni (01:18:20):
listening to conversations with

Ivy Malik (01:18:22):
misfits,

Paul Povolni (01:18:23):
mavericks, and trailblazers.