January 17, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode we explore the fascinating world of family dynamics and therapy with the insightful Allen Michael Lewis, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.
🙌Navigate through the power of genograms to understand family dynamics, the importance of accountability in relationships, and the challenges of maintaining a healthy relationship with family members while preserving oneself.
🍽️Discover cultural insights on food exploring its relationship with love, respect and identity. Allen reflects on internalized messages about food and the body, setting the stage for a deeper discussion on intergenerational trauma and food choices.
🤝Explore the roles, hierarchies, and patterns within family systems, gain insights into transformative therapy practices, and join the conversation on the significance of cultural ties to food and body image.
👉Whether you're interested in therapy, relationships, or cultural explorations, this episode has something for everyone.
#HealYourRootsPodcast #MentalHealth #familydynamics
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:02):
You're not going to want to miss this
hilarious and honest episodewith Alan Michael Lewis talking
about our family upbringing,relationship with food and diet
culture, and the cultural normsaround that. Alan also has a
huge impact on the nextgeneration of marriage and
family therapist as the directorof internships at counsel for
relationships. Allen, I'm soexcited for you to be on our
(00:24):
episode today. Thank you so muchfor making the time to join us.
Of course,
Allen Michael Lewis (00:29):
I'm excited and excited to have this
conversation.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (00:35):
Awesome.
So in the beginning, we kind ofjust dive right in, ask the
therapists, kind of like, what'syour origin story? How did you
get into the field and justshare a little bit about
yourself?
Allen Michael Lewis (00:46):
Well, you know, for me, 1776 a nation was
I'm just getting complete works.
And so I think that for me, alot of my origin as a therapist
came out of just coming from avery diverse and different
dynamic kind of family. I'vealways been curious about
(01:08):
backgrounds and upbringings. Andlike where people started off,
and I just kind of thought itwas like, Oh, this is
interesting. And then I realizedthat, you know, in family
therapy, that's literally whatyou do. You kind of like piece
together this puzzle of wherepeople are coming from, what
they're coming with, how theylearned how to navigate through
(01:31):
the world. And I think that whenI found out about family
therapy, I was like, Oh, thisfeels good. This is something
that I really want to get into.
I remember taking my firstfamily therapy course in
undergrad. And I was like, wow,this is really interesting. I
love it. And other people werelike, this isn't for me. And I'm
(01:52):
like, Are you crazy? This issensational. How dare you? So
and then from there, just goinginto really thinking about what
were what do I want to do forgrad school? Where do I want to
go? What do I want to focus onand it was always, you know,
this idea of like relationshiptherapy, family therapy. And so
(02:12):
in grad school, still somethingthat I was really passionate
about, after grad school isstill wanting that to be a focus
of my career. And I think I cansafely say without any type of
chagrin, that I am a systemsnob. I very much am I love
hearing about people's pasts. Idon't like to get stuck with my
(02:34):
clients in their past. Butreally thinking about how their
past informs the here and nowand will inform the future by
think that it all comes down tojust the fact that I'm like
really interested and curiousabout like, where did you come
from? And how did it inform thehere and now? Yeah, so I also am
(02:55):
a very big nerd when it comes tolike genealogy and family
research. So it just feelsnatural.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:03):
I love that maybe that's why we get
along as I love the systems worktoo. And I remember being in
graduate school learning aboutit, and like walking around my
parents house like diagnosingeverybody one by one, like, Oh,
this is my you're like, This iswhy I'm like that.
Allen Michael Lewis (03:21):
Another thing that I do that I think is
really niche is I you know, Ilike to read only fiction,
nonfiction, I'm not really afan. But whenever it's like a
fiction book, I'll do like agenogram, or like a family tree.
Because I'm like, I need to knowthis information. So you like
see some of the books, like openthe page, and it's like a paper,
(03:42):
but I've been cheated grandma,and I'm like, don't judge me.
This is my process. You know?
That
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:48):
is hilarious. I love that. I still
do that for every session in thebeginning. Always do a genogram
I love to learn about the familydynamic, right? I think it is so
important. Like, yes, we'reindividuals. And there's other
things that impact us. Butrelationships and our
upbringing, I feel like is atthe core of what makes us who we
are. And like, you know, wedevelop before seven years old,
(04:12):
we're conditioned with all thesethings, and then it impacts
everything else. So I definitelylove learning about the systems
in the family, too. Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (04:20):
and I owe every session. And this comes
from like my internship days, wehad to do a genogram with every
client that we found. And soeven for every session, I'll
start with a genogram withwhoever I'm working with. And I
always tell the interns that I'mlike supervising or whoever I'm
supervising, like, I'm notsaying well I'm going to do a
(04:41):
genogram with you. It's more oflike the way that I structure my
questions. It's like I want toget a lot of information about
where you came from. And I amlike drawing a genogram is it
using all of the symbols? No. AmI kind of like drawing like
little things around like likedenoting them? But things yes.
But I do it with every clientthat I work with. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:04):
So for the listeners who may not be in
the therapy world, can you kindof describe what a genogram is
for them? So they understandlike what we're laughing about?
Allen Michael Lewis (05:12):
Yeah, so I was I was with my clients, I
would say like a genogram isbasically like a family tree
with a little bit moreinformation. It really is just
kind of mapping out your family,with the different generations
and the people involved. Ialways say like, the key people
in your life. You know, thereare some diagrams that include
(05:34):
dogs and cats, and, you know,best friends. And, you know,
though, you know, those friendsaren't really your family, but
they are your family. Becausethere's, they're important to
you. And, you know, I've donework with clients who have grief
because of, you know, theirfamily dog that has died. And so
it's important to have them onthe genogram. Because, yes,
(05:55):
they're not human, but they arevery important and the work that
we're doing, so it really isjust like, like an ancestry.com,
but I'm reading it out. Andmaybe I don't have all of the
like, you know, birth records,but you know, I have the
information.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (06:10):
Absolutely.
You know, I'm gonna start askingabout family pets. That's a
really good point. I neverthought about that, because that
is pretty huge. I
Allen Michael Lewis (06:17):
am a very big animal person. Well, with a
caveat, I am a fuzzy, animallover kind of person, reptiles
and snakes. If that is yourniche, wonderful, it is not my
minutes. But it's also to theother side of like, I do think I
(06:38):
was like, you know, humansreally missed, missed it when we
didn't domesticate bears. Ireally would want a pet bear.
That is. So anything fuzzy, I'mlike, Yes, I want to talk about
this. But when clients are like,Well, I have a really big, you
know, Python? No, that is lovelyfor you. In the back of our
minds.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (07:00):
That is hilarious. I love to ask the
question. For clients like to,you know, describe like your
mom's personality. But beforeyou do, how would you describe
her when you were growing upversus now as an adult? Because
I feel like that answer isreally different. And how they
perceive that is reallydifferent as well. And you get
(07:21):
so much information from seeingthe difference between those two
answers.
Allen Michael Lewis (07:27):
Yeah, and I also like asking about, you
know, like, the different, likelevels, I always say like, so
starting off with the person,tell me about yourself, tell me
about, you know, who you are inthe here. And now. Tell me, do
you have any siblings? Oh, tellme about the different siblings?
Are you close with them? Andthen working my way up that way?
(07:48):
Because I think that that way,it's kind of like getting the
lay of the land. But then asyou're kind of going through the
different levels, it's like,adding more light into these
different areas of like, Oh, meand my brother don't get along.
Oh, he's very much like myfather. How do you get along
with your father? Well, he'svery authoritarian. I'm like,
(08:10):
you know, so giving us overlylike, kind of like building it
in that way. And then sometimesI'll show the genogram to my
clients. And they'll be like,Wow, that's a lot. And I think
that it's really empowering,because it really shows you all
this is going on. Yeah. And nowI'm doing this work to prevent,
potentially block some of thesepatterns from continuing or
(08:32):
change some of the dynamics orwe're working on this together
to, you know, create a newnarrative for ourselves. By the
loved one, it's like, oh, that'sa lot. And I'm like, Well, yeah,
it's a family. I mean, it's ait's a system, it's, you know,
it's the nitty gritty ofeverything. So it makes sense
that it's a lot.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (08:48):
Absolutely.
And everyone kind of has theirown role. Every sibling, each
parent, right, like thehierarchy of things. It's, I
feel like we could have talkedabout just family therapy for
five hours. I don't know how Ididn't put this on the talking
points. But
Allen Michael Lewis (09:03):
yeah, it's a lot and it's in depth, then I
know that, you know, astherapists were coming in with
our own things, you know,whenever I'm sitting across from
somebody who's like, well, I'mthe youngest. I'm like, Oh, me,
too. I get it. I get it.
Because, you know, then I'll besitting across from somebody
who's like, I'm the oldest andthe youngest is, you know, they
get everything. And I'm like,wow, I don't think we do.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (09:30):
I speak for the group. And
Allen Michael Lewis (09:33):
actually, we, you know,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (09:37):
that's hilarious. And so who do you
like, Who do you work with now?
Where do you work? What's thesetting that you work in for
people to kind of hear a littlebit more about that?
Allen Michael Lewis (09:46):
Yeah, so now I'm currently working at
counsel for relationships, shoutout to counsel for relationship
and I'm doing teletherapy so Iam able to see clients in
Pennsylvania Joe Delaware,Florida in New Jersey, hopefully
New York soon crossed. And so alot of the work that I have been
(10:09):
doing is a lot of patterns work.
And a lot of, you know, hey,we're coming in with this, I'm
noticing this in myrelationships, I'm noticing this
in the dynamic with my partneror with my family members, or
whoever I'm engaging with, whatdoes it look like to outline
that pattern? Block that patternfrom continuing? What would you
need to build a new pattern? Andhow are you going to make sure
(10:34):
that that pattern sticks,because I think that's something
that I work with my clients is,you know, we operate the way we
operate, because we've learnedthat this is how we can get
through life. You know, if Ipull somebody in, I get what I
want. But then when I don't wantanymore, I distance myself and
push them away. And that'sreally like the self protective
(10:55):
method of doing things. But ifI'm in a relationship with
somebody, and I don't want topush them away, but I don't know
how else to do it, then the workreally is how do I block that
pattern from continuing? Whatmight I need to create a new
pattern? And how am I going tomake sure that I'm not going
back to my old pattern, but thatI'm sticking to this new
pattern? And I think that Ibring up this like pattern work?
(11:17):
Because, you know, whether it'san individual, whether it's a
couple, I'm working on thepattern work? And yes, we're
talking about other things whilewe're talking, you know, we're
talking about patterns. But Ithink that at the core of it, it
really is, what do I want tosee? How am I going to get
there? And what might I need toget there? Because I think that
the, the tendency is, I knowwhere I want to go. And oh, if I
(11:39):
could just do this, if I couldjust do this. But folks always
forget about evil, you needtools, you need people, you need
things that are going to helpyou to get to where you want to
go. Absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (11:54):
And I think, especially since you
really dive into systems andfamilies is also recognizing
where this pattern came from,why it served a function before.
And why it's not anymore. Ithink that sometimes there's a
gap between that because wethink like, we just keep doing
this thing, why do I keep doingthis, I know it's bad for me, I
know it's pushing people away,or I'm being too needy or
(12:17):
whatever it is, and we're notalways aware have the insight
of, well, it's not necessarily abad thing, it wasn't always a
bad thing or unhealthy I neededit to survive, or to get through
the relationships while I wasyounger with family members or
siblings to get what I needed.
And now I'm out of thatenvironment. And it's no longer
functioning the way I need itto. So like now I need to revamp
(12:40):
the way I operate inrelationships.
Allen Michael Lewis (12:46):
And I think a lot of the clients that I work
with, they come in with a lot ofshame or blame about the way
that they interact. You know,like, Oh, I'm just unlovable,
nobody can love me, I'm justthis, I'm just that I can't
believe that I acted this way, Iruined all of my relationships.
And I think a lot of the workthat we do is the difference
(13:07):
between blame andaccountability. Like this idea
of blame, it really is justkeeps you stuck. There's nowhere
for you to go. You're justholding this immense pressure,
you're holding all of thisemotional weight. And you can't
go anywhere for accountability.
I think that there is a pathforward, if there's this idea of
I'm recognizing my role. I'mrecognizing what I've done, I'm
(13:31):
recognizing the patterns thatI've played, and it's informing
how I'm going to move forward.
If I push people away, I cantake accountability, but I've
hurt people. And also what doesthat mean, for me moving
forward? How do I no longer hurtpeople? How do I do the work of
(13:51):
not pushing them away? Because Iknow that it's caused harm. So I
think that a lot of our work isthis idea of like, well, how do
I get to this point ofaccountability rather than
blame? Because I don't want tobe stuck anymore. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (14:03):
And that's a tough balance to get
to, especially when the blame ismixed with shame, right? Because
we can kind of really get stuckin like, whether it's self pity
or just feeling horrible aboutourselves and almost not
recognizing the impact becausewe're just feeling so intensely
about ourselves and the thingsthat we've done, that we just
(14:24):
associate like I'm a bad personversus these patterns, or the
way I've learned to interactwith people isn't helpful or
isn't conducive to what I want.
Right? And like the other end islike being entitled is just
like, well, I can do whateverthe hell I want. And it doesn't
matter. So it's finding like Ithink it was, I was at a
conference. I think it was Terryreal he was talking about
(14:44):
finding this balance betweenlike stern love with yourself,
right? It's like, you shouldfeel guilty by hurting somebody
but you shouldn't feel so guiltythat now you're stuck in the
shame. So it's like thataccountability is that middle
piece because If I'm like, Okay,I'm not a bad person, I've just
done something to hurt somebody,I can learn and move forward.
Allen Michael Lewis (15:07):
Yeah, and I think that it's even harder to
when you have that shame. Andalso when you're doing, you
know, like, work with yourpartner. And maybe they're not
ready, necessarily to kind oflike, because I think that it
can be like, if I don't stay inblame, then you get scot free,
you get off scot free, or like,we don't have to ever bring it
(15:28):
up, or my feelings aren't beingvalidated. If I don't stay here,
then you get to do whatever youwant. Once again, and I'm not
heard. And so I think that inworking with partners,
especially, really taking intothe room of you know, you can
take accountability, and stillhold the emotion of the other
(15:49):
person, you don't need blame tovalidate your feelings. Part of
our work is leaning into thatuncomfortable of being mindful,
hey, you hurt me. And we'restill trying to figure it out.
And just because you takeaccountability, it doesn't mean
that my hurt goes away. BecauseI think that that's the biggest
fear. If I allow this person tomove forward, is my pain going
(16:13):
to be disregarded? Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:15):
they're just going to repeat it. Again,
it's not changed behavior. It'sjust an apology, and it doesn't
move anywhere. And
Allen Michael Lewis (16:21):
then I'm enabling them, because I'm
allowing it, I'm allowing ourwork to move forward. And me
just forgetting about everythingwe've done.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:31):
This is the lovely pieces of couples
therapy.
Allen Michael Lewis (16:34):
Yeah. And I think that I've also seen it
like in, you know, couples andfamilies, because even like with
working with parents, this ideaof when I've worked with
individuals, how can I canunderstand where they're coming
from. And if I give them if, ifI forget what they've done to
me, I'm letting them off thehook, I can see that my
(16:57):
grandparents weren't greatparents, I can see that my
parents experienced abuse orneglect, or they were not
equipped to be parents. If Itake that into consideration, am
I then just letting them offscot free? No, my feelings hurt,
my pain hurts. So a lot of thework that I even see with
(17:18):
individuals is, what does itlook like to know that there
might not be a similaraccountability for your parents,
but you can take accountabilityfor what this means for you, and
how it informs you movingforward with them. So it's
really it's a lot of hard work,it's a lot of heavy lifting. And
so I always tell my clients andlike, make sure to be kind to
yourself, you're doing a lot ofdeep work and heavy work. But
(17:41):
it's worthwhile work.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (17:43):
Absolutely.
And it's tough with families, Ithink it's a little bit
different than a romanticpartner. Because there's this
different expectation, orthere's a different level of
loyalty or commitment kind of inthat way. Especially if you're
coming from a very familyoriented background or culture,
where it's like, well, ourparents may be a particular way,
(18:04):
or they aren't the best, orthey're not as emotionally
available or intelligent as Iwould prefer may have needed,
but I don't want to cut them outof my life. And they don't
understand or get a lot of thesethings that they're doing to me.
So it can feel like one sidedwork of like, okay, I'm gonna
empathize, understand them, andthey may not always be able to
(18:27):
meet me where I need them to be.
And it's okay. Sometimes it'sokay, sometimes it's not right.
But that's like a decision forthe individual to make, like,
I'm just going to accept thatthis is the level of closeness I
can maintain with my family inorder to still protect myself
and not cut them off.
Allen Michael Lewis (18:48):
And I think that it comes down to what we're
bringing into the room astherapists too, because there
are therapists, that would belike, Oh, your parent doesn't
treat you well cut them off. Andthey're not taking into
consideration the culture, thebackground, even the idea of
like, if I cut off my parents,I'm also cutting off any type of
contact to my community. Or I'mcutting off any type of contact
(19:11):
to my siblings. And I think thatthat could be detrimental to the
client. I also think, bringingin what you might be
experiencing as a therapist,because for you as a therapist,
maybe you cut off your parents.
And so it's like, oh, it's thebest decision I made. So why not
give it to my clients, when inreality, it might not be the
best and it might not turn outthe same way. So I think that
(19:32):
it's a really tricky part as atherapist to have, like, what am
I bringing into the room?
Because maybe I'm not done withall of the work. I certainly
have not done with all of myfamily of origin work. But you
know, what am I bringing in? Howis that influencing what we're
talking about? Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (19:52):
And I see that a lot and in terms of
like, just being an immigrant aswell and like coming from that
family oriented background. israrely are, am I going to
recommend cutting off a familymember. Because it's like you
said it's so detrimental in somany different ways. And
(20:13):
relationships are reallycomplicated and complex. And
it's not always black and whiteand having that cultural
context. And also knowing thatwhat is kind of the norm within
a culture is not going to be thenorm, and socially acceptable in
let's say, America, right, or,you know, any a different
particular culture. So it's alsokind of not putting our
(20:37):
countertransference on somebodyelse, because, well, my family
or how I was raised, that wouldbe really wrong, really
emotionally abusive. So like,that's horrible. You should not
speak to them. Like, wow, thatcould be a whole culture
operates. Yeah. So we can't haveeverybody.
Allen Michael Lewis (20:54):
Yeah. And as you were talking, I was, I
thought about like, times wherein therapy, folks will talk
about self care. Because I thinkself care is another one of
those things that really islike, blinded, it can be blinded
by a therapist, it's like, well,you know, what I think you
should do, I think you shouldjust schedule a massage. And
just go to this local spa, hereare some referrals. I don't like
(21:18):
spa, massage, listen, comingfrom where I came from, I'm not
going to a spa. I'm not gettinga massage, nobody's touching me.
And also who has money for that,you know, so I think it's
another thing where it's like,sometimes as therapists, you
have to be mindful of being intouch with where your client is
and where they're coming from.
Because some of the thingsyou're suggesting, it's like,
(21:39):
no, that's never gonna fly. Whatare you doing? Yeah, yeah. And
in self care, just irks in mylife anyway, because I think
it's gonna become this, thissense of like, you have to do
something grand and big. Butthat, once again, that could be
another five hour conversation.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (22:01):
So I love your Instagram MFT foodie,
I actually really look forward,I'm like, Oh, I wonder where
he's at this week, to see likethe different coffee shops in
the food. And I love that youreally promote that healthy
relationship with food, wouldyou be able to elaborate or dive
a little bit more into that? Itis
Allen Michael Lewis (22:21):
a journey.
And I think that it's a journeythat a lot of folks have, where
they have this, especially ifyou've grown up in any type of
American culture, you know, youhave this really weird
relationship with food. And it'slike this very big fixture
because it's something that youneed to survive. But it's also
this very grandiose thing thatcan show power and status in all
(22:42):
of these really negative things.
But I think that we also forget,and we also lose touch that it
can be a really nice thing thatbrings people together, that
we're able to connect with, thatyou can nourish your body with,
but in a way that reallyappreciates the ingredients and
appreciates, you know, thedifferent benefits to the body
(23:03):
and the different ways that youinteract with the food or even
just in, like the cognitiveaspect of the pleasure that you
can get from different types offood. And it doesn't always have
to be like, deep fried, toenjoy. It can be just like the
different flavors and thetastes. And I think that it can
be I think that food can reallyjust be this thing that is very
(23:26):
divided, when really it can verymuch be something that you can
just bring people in togetherwith. So I think that when I
think about MFT foodie, itreally is just building this
community of people that I don'thave everything figured out. And
I don't want to be on any typeof spectrum of I only eat boiled
(23:49):
chicken and broccoli and or Ieat whatever I want. And it's
all fried and greasy andeverything. But there can be
this middle where we don't. Wedon't have everything figured
out. But we can learn together.
Because I certainly don't haveeverything figured out. It's
always going to be a foodjourney for myself. But yeah, I
think that I think that that'sreally what my mission was when
(24:11):
I combined two things that Ilove food in therapy.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (24:18):
I love food and food is definitely one
of those things we think aboutpleasure is just all the
different memories caught up inlike different kinds of food
too, whether it's like fromgrowing up or different places
you're at or like the experienceyou're having with food and
sharing it with people. And it'sinteresting thinking about also
from a cultural perspective ofhow different every culture or
(24:41):
similarly treats therelationship with food, but also
within the family. And thenwithin that culture of how they
expect romantic relationships toor like how you view yourself
within that too. Because I'mthinking about, like my
background like Eastern Europeanis is very contradictory. You
(25:03):
know, feeding your family is alove language. And having you
know, your children and yourgrandchildren eat everything off
the plate is like a sign of likelove and respect. And if they
don't, it's like you didn't likemy food, like, you're gonna be
hungry. But then at the sametime, it's like, well, if you
(25:23):
gain weight, or if you look aparticular way, who will marry
you? And it's like, yes, veryconfusing and conflicting. And
that's just like, the commonnarrative around it at least in
like my background.
Allen Michael Lewis (25:37):
Yeah, and I think that that's why, you know,
we're in a very big season ofeating. But then also, I don't
know if you're a Hunger Gamesfan, but the the new movie just
came out. And I think I'll readand I'm like, Oh, God, I'm a
capital citizen. I'm a capitalcitizen. For anybody who doesn't
know. Suzanne Collins, I thinkshe wrote as like a symbol of,
(26:02):
you know, the traditionaloverabundance, overindulgence
kind of like American mentalityfor the capital citizens, they
always want more, they alwayscrave more, they have a drink
that they drink to throw up sothey can eat more food. Yeah. So
it really very much is this ideaof food shows a sense of, oh,
(26:25):
this is how far I've come. Or Ican, oh, this is a big deal. I
can do this, I can do this. Butthen it also has this really
negative side of things of like,oh, but don't get too fat. Like
you were saying, Oh, don't dothis, or, Oh, don't eat this, or
I can't believe you know, youate that because now you don't
deserve. And that's a big thing.
It's like LF IV and dessert, Idon't deserve this, or I can't
(26:47):
eat the next day, or I have toexercise out all the food that
I've just eaten. And it reallyis this like very big yo yo of
these counter intuitive andcontradictory statements that we
tell ourselves, oh, if I'veeaten too much, I don't deserve
to have my partner, my partnerwill never love me. So just a
really strange thing. And it'salso those internal messages
(27:11):
that maybe aren't so drasticthat we never think about. It's
like, oh, this is a bad food. Idon't want to eat that because
it's bad. And it's like, oh,what's bad about it? Well, it
has a lot of sugar. Well, sugarin itself isn't necessarily bad.
Some people will be like, No, itis high fructose corn syrup.
(27:31):
Okay, that's fine. But I'm justreally thinking about these like
internal messages where we'vejust maybe they're not as
drastic, but we carry themaround. And they've impacted our
relationship with food. And wereally need to consider them. I
have
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (27:46):
a newborn daughter now. And so the
way I talk about my body, and myrelationship with food, is
something that's directly goingto impact her and how she thinks
about herself and herrelationship with food. So I'm
trying to be really consciousof, I'm conditioning myself
around that. Yeah.
Allen Michael Lewis (28:04):
And I think it's even like socioeconomic
status, its its gender, itsracial. Because, you know,
apparently, well, my familywasn't well off at all. But my,
I think that my older siblingswould say, like, oh, you had it
great, because we were up enoughwhen I was born. But really
(28:24):
being mindful that if you arereally struggling to meet, you
know, to meet the needs of thekids, or, you know, you don't
have money for food, or you'rerelying on donations, or
whatever it might be, you know,you really have to think about,
I don't know, when my next foodis going to come in, I'm going
to just kind of indulge, or it'sgoing to be high, high fat, high
(28:46):
salt, high everything kind offood. And that's what your
body's going to get used to. Soit makes sense that it's going
to be this like, famine andfeast kind of mentality. And how
does that trickle down? Even if,you know, I was born on the up
and up, you know, how is thatstill going to be something that
my family lives off of? And thatmentality continues? And I think
(29:08):
I even see it with some of theclients that I'm working with.
It's like, Oh, we didn't havethis, but now I do. And now I'm
hoarding or now I like consume alot of or this is a comfort of
mine. And really thinking aboutwell, like it has an origin
serves a purpose. So itshouldn't be coming from a place
of shame. It should be somethingthat we acknowledge and we honor
(29:30):
that that was how you had toreally think, and what are some
other ways that we can shiftthat thinking and what are some
of the supports that you mightneed to to assist with your
journey?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (29:43):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's such a good
point to think about that, likeancestrally like throughout,
whether it's like your parentsor your grandparents or your
great grandparents, right?
Because that is passed down likethat intergenerational trauma or
beliefs or narratives becauseI'm thinking about like, you
know, I came from former SovietUnion and my parents and
grandparents and greatgrandparents and you know,
(30:04):
several before that was incommunism, or like there was a
lot of food insecurity. Andlike, our diets are made up of
meat, potatoes, bread and fat.
Yeah, right. And like, I lovethat, but it's, you know,
thinking about like, yeah, thatmakes sense why they ate that is
to feel full, because otherwisehe didn't have enough food. Or
(30:25):
it would go back because thereweren't preservatives and like
that being passed down, I thinkis really important for people
to also to recognize, I thinkthat's such a great point to
think about, like, it's not justyou right now. Or even your
parents, it's like, how long agodid this kind of really instill
this message of the type of foodyou needed to survive?
Allen Michael Lewis (30:46):
And I think like the cutting out of food,
too, can also be cutting outdifferent cultural things that
are very important to you. Ialways think about times where
it's like, well, have you everthought about not eating, you
know, beans and rice, they'revery heavy. And I just like feel
like this, like, ancestral, likeimmediate head snap from like,
all of my answers. And I'm like,I'm pretty sure that there are
(31:10):
1000s of ancestors and 1000s ofparts of the world that have
just screamed in their grave,because literally, rice and
beans have provided for manymultitudes of people. So I think
really not going the other sideof like, oh, this is bad, let's
cut it out. But more of like,yes, they have survived off of
these things. And let's reallyput it into context. Maybe
(31:31):
ancestors who ate a lot of riceand beans, were, you know, doing
a lot more than me who's doingteletherapy in my apartment, you
know? So really being mindful oflike, How much am I consuming?
How can I still have it in mydiet, and also take into
consideration my differentactivity level than what my
ancestors would be doing? Andbecause I think that putting it
(31:52):
into context allows for a littlebit more of grounding and
strength, rather than feelinglike I have to do this very
hardcore thing. And this veryrestrictive thing, because then
it's going to feel like well, Idon't want to but I have to, as
opposed to coming from thisplace of rounding of figuring it
out. And maybe there are goingto be some trial and error, but
at least I'm coming from a placeof strength.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (32:13):
Yeah.
And different lifestyle,different environment, different
needs and demands of you. Yeah.
Allen Michael Lewis (32:20):
And I think that it's really just unfair,
that, you know, the high caloriefoods are the delicious food,
like we said that some peoplewould be like, Well, hey, you
know, like, turnips aredelightful. Compared to cake.
(32:41):
That, you know,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (32:43):
I'm like, I know, thinking about
like, not eating a potato. Therest of my life would feel like
a betrayal. Like you're saying,like rice and beans, like, What
do you mean?
Allen Michael Lewis (32:53):
I did, I was in New York City. Food
capital, potentially. Delhi, Idid hear is, you know, kind of
building up there. And I wassitting in a coffee shop, and I
just heard somebody next to me.
And they were talking abouttheir food. Yeah, I just had
this really great dinner. I'mlike, this is exciting. Because
I'm used dropping. I'm atherapist by trade. So I'm
(33:15):
listening. And he's like, I hadboiled chicken or my elbow, me
like, and I had some potatoes,just like two. And I was like,
like, whole calves. And thenhe's like, and then I had some,
like, some steamed broccoli.
And, you know, I cut it up intohalf, and then I saved the other
half for tomorrow. And, youknow, I feel good. And I'm about
(33:37):
to go to the gym. And I'm like,in New York City. I don't know
if I would have that restraint.
God bless you, sir. Because Ilisten, I'm going to, and that
is my cross to bear. But really,like, did they have to make it?
Like, why couldn't if you biteinto a pair, it was like, you
know, cheesecake? Or wonderful.
(33:58):
You know,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (33:59):
we'll say some fruit definitely hits
the spot.
Allen Michael Lewis (34:02):
Yeah. And I think that's something I like.
So I work with a nutritionist,shout out to body metric in
royersford. Whoo. But they weretalking about how, you know,
there are certain foods thatyou're going to just be craving,
and you're gonna be like, Yes,this is what I want. And as
opposed to being like, oh, I canonly eat this. And that's it.
(34:25):
But really thinking about howcan I have this food and other
foods that are going to fill mebeing atrocious, get me the
things that I need for my bodyto function. And that was a
really big change. Oh, you know,like, as opposed to like, Oh, if
you eat this one bad thing, youcould that's all you can eat.
You can't eat anything else,because you're too high in
calories. But really thinkingabout it in a way of like, How
(34:47):
can I have this need met, whilealso getting these other
nutrients that I need? And soit's a more adding to Yeah, as
opposed to like taking away fromYeah, and kind
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (34:57):
of listening to what your body
needs, right? Because you'resaying And like you're not
always, someone's not alwaysgoing to want fried foods just
because it's tasty sometimes,like, we just got a pizza oven,
and we have been going ham onmaking homemade pizzas. There
was like, the second day, I waslike, I can't do it anymore.
Like, I feel like I just wantsomething fresh, like I want to
(35:18):
vegetable I want to salad. Andthat was just my body telling me
like, this is delicious, forsure. And we're going to do this
next weekend. But like, I can't,I don't want it anymore, which
was interesting, because in mymind, I'm like, I need pizza
every day. I
Allen Michael Lewis (35:33):
think that that's, we That's why I can
really understand the seasons.
Because like, it's the earth wayof saying you don't need this
thing all the time. If, ifwatermelon existed the entirety
of the year, I would eat everyday. It's delight, watermelon
peaches. I've been in araspberry era. It's pretty
exciting.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (35:57):
That's hilarious. I feel like this
could just turn into a foodshow. I'm just thinking about.
Allen Michael Lewis (36:03):
I actually transition to my kitchen. I'm
like, Hey, we're going to Iwould love to incorporate that
into therapy. But I know I knowmy boundaries. And I know that
if we did something and itdidn't turn out, I would be more
than be the client. I'd be like,what you weren't so hard, you
know. So I'm like, I don't thinkthat I will be incorporating
(36:26):
cooking. But I know that itcould be really beneficial for
people in therapy. That
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (36:32):
would actually be a really cool
experiential way to process andheal some things.
Allen Michael Lewis (36:38):
Oh, there was a really great tic toc or I
forget, I think her name isAlicia. No, I don't think so.
But she was talking abouthealing her inner child. And one
of those things was that shebought a box of brownie mix. And
when she was a child, they hadto do the brownies a certain
way. They couldn't eat them onlyuntil their her stepmother said
(37:04):
that they could eat them. Andthey had to be served in a
different in a specific way thanto be cut in a certain way. And
there was a time where somethinghad happened where she was
reprimanded for something shedidn't do. And it was really
tied to this. So part of herhealing her inner child was she
made the box of brownies, shedid it in a completely different
way than she had to when she wasa child. And then when they were
(37:26):
done, she didn't wait for themto cool. She cut a triangle, I
think it was in the middle ofthe pan, and then just scooped
it out and ate it over the pan.
And I thought it was reallygreat because it really was this
idea of I'm honoring this pastthat I've had. And I'm honoring
what I really wanted from when Iwas a child. And now I'm able to
(37:47):
do it. Because I have a littlebit more control over my
narrative. And I can really healthat part of me by saying like
you didn't do wrong, justbecause you did things in a
different way. It's okay to dothings differently.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (38:02):
I really love that. That's also
how I eat food. Yes.
Allen Michael Lewis (38:08):
I am a dance mom when it comes to
baking. Because I'll be like No,not yet, or we have to do this.
So that's why I'm just like, youknow, maybe baking is a personal
thing that I do for myself. It'snot really a group activity. And
that's part of knowing yourboundaries and knowing your
(38:29):
capacity. And I talked aboutthat with my clients all the
time. Because I think I think,you know, I'll be talking with
friends and yeah, maybe like ourkids, you know, like, could come
over and you like bake withthem. And I'm like, or I get all
of the ingredients. And then Isend it to your house where you
live. You know, like, I don'twant to be that person who is
(38:51):
like, No, you didn't decorateready to like the chat. Now your
capacities, understand yourcapacities. And it's okay to
honor your capacity,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:00):
that self awareness and insight.
Allen Michael Lewis (39:04):
It came at, you know, like, there were a
couple of times where I wascooking or baking with
something, somebody and I'mlike, I have to breathe through.
I have to be through it. Thatwas about to lose the plot.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:17):
And then there was Thanksgiving
dinner. Oh,
Allen Michael Lewis (39:21):
it's it's it's Christmas. For me. My
Christmas has to be this way.
But yeah, well, I'll get there.
We'll get there.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:32):
That's so funny. I did want to touch on
so I know that you work atcounsel for relationships, and
you're the director ofinternships. And can you share a
little bit about that experiencebecause you have all of these
budding Marriage and FamilyTherapists about to go into the
field. So you get to mold theminds of all of these new
therapists coming out. Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (39:54):
so CFR currently has 75 Yeah, it is a
You can laugh riot. But I thinkthat it's great because we live,
we literally see, folks, youknow, some of our interns have
never seen clients before, inany type of context, some of
them have seen them in otherlike group therapies or other
(40:14):
settings. So it's really cool tosee somebody who's just starting
out and see them go through thedifferent, you know, feelings of
being a first time therapist andthen getting a little bit more
comfortable, and then getting tothe end of their program and
then launching into the, intothe field and having their first
clients wherever they'reworking. So I think it's really
cool to be able to see, like,literally from the beginning,
(40:37):
their growth happening. And Ialso supervise in the program.
So it's really cool to be ableto be part of, you know,
people's initial steps asclinicians, it can come with a
lot of trials and tribulations.
But overall, it really is thisawesome time to really just be
able to see people blossom. AndI always say it's like, if you
(40:58):
know, when when I use a when Idon't say, when you have the
career that you want, and you'vewritten your book, or you've
written whatever you would liketo do. Just remember in that
little acknowledgement sectionfor Alan was positive, yeah, it
might be just positive, youknow, you really taught me
(41:19):
everything, it also might bethat negative for Alan, because
I've thrived in spite of becausethere is part of this director
role where it is like, you haveto do this, you have to do that,
to show that you do this, youhave to, you know, kind of being
the heavy. So whether it's inspite of or because of the
shadow is appreciated. There'sno bad press. There is not.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (41:45):
That's awesome, though. And so during
those classes that you have withthem, is it helping them find
the internship or they'reinterning at Council, and then
you're kind of doing thatsupervision class with them to
talk through everything thatthey're going through? Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (41:58):
so they're interning at the council. So we
take students from ThomasJefferson University, and then
we've have partnerships withUniversity of Pennsylvania
Temple University, Bryn MawrCollege, West, Chester
University, all of thesedifferent places that we're
really trying to buildconnections with. And so they'll
(42:19):
come here, they'll do theirclinical placement with us. I
supervise with the master'slevel students. So we'll meet
either for two hours, dependingon if I'm meeting with two
people or one hour if I'mmeeting with one. And it really
is to watch over their caseload,watch it, watch their case
videos, and talk about what'sgoing on clinically. Because I
(42:40):
think that the thing is that alot of the folks that are in our
internship, they have thisinnate ability to meet clients
where they are talking aboutwhat they're experiencing. So
for those who are listening, whoare like, Oh, I don't know about
seeing an intern for therapy,no, it really give it a shot.
And really, really go with anopen mind. Because a lot of
(43:00):
these folks are in this field,because they want to help and
they want to meet you where theyare, you are and they want, you
know, you to achieve your goals.
And they have the skill setinnately of listening or
connecting with you or joiningor really just holding what you
have to say, which is somethingthat sometimes our family and
our friends don't do well. Sothey really are coming in with
(43:22):
these skills that we're now justteaching, hey, here's a
technique, here are some, youknow, theories to apply to what
you already are doing. That'show you do a therapy session,
you know, so I think that it isreally amazing, being able to
invest in the skills that peopleare coming in with, and allow
(43:45):
them to flourish in this new wayof, oh, now I'm able to use my
skills, but I'm also attachingtheory, I'm also attaching
clinical practices to it, andhelping people in the meantime.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (43:59):
And they really do care. I mean,
obviously, we still care astherapists, but I think like
when you really start you justlike the amount of care you
have, and compassion, empathy,and like you just want to do so
well, that sometimes we go aboveand beyond. Brian, you have to
like reel it in a little bit.
But it is true. I mean, forpeople listening, if you have
the opportunity to see an internlike, I don't think it's
(44:20):
necessarily a negativeexperience, just because they're
not as experienced in the field.
They actually care so much andwant to see you do well and grow
and heal. So I think it's agreat experience. I think it's
awesome. That counsel providesthat till Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (44:38):
and I think especially, it's just really
interesting. I talked to a lotof people who are like, well, I
can't I haven't been able tofind a therapist and I'm like,
what's going on and they'relike, everybody's fall or
everybody's busy every I can'tafford it. I think that like
price can always be a barrier.
So I think that it's great thatwe have these 75 people who
really are just eager to helpand eager to learn, and they're
(45:01):
learning from their supervisor,and they're implementing it in
the therapy. And it really islike a, if you reach out, you
really get connected withsomebody very quickly. So I
think, you know, that's what Ialways say like, don't let the
sun go down on interns. I thinktherapists are just like
(45:22):
anything else, if it's not yourcup of tea, or if it's not the
person that connects with you,it's not the person who connects
with you. But don't let it justbe because oh, they're an intern
or they don't have a licenseyet, that really deters you from
seeing somebody, if you mightmeet them. And it might be a
really great fit, and reallygood connection and something
that you really need where youare then. And that might be
somebody who's like, we don'treally jive together, and that's
(45:45):
completely fine. I always say tomy clients, like, if it's not
me, that's completely fine. I'mhere to help you however I can
and get you to where you need tobe. But I think that it can be
really hard taking that firststep of, you know, what, if it
doesn't work out, I think thatthat's part of the therapy
practice. And I think that'spart of the therapeutic journey.
So don't let that be a reasonwhy you're not reaching out for
(46:07):
therapy. Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (46:09):
and I think I say this a lot to
clients, or even people who arelooking for a therapist, like,
it is a lot like dating, youknow, like you're going to meet,
I mean, I think you're going tobe really lucky if the first
therapists you meet is like thematch, because that's
incredible. But that doesn'talways happen. Because you may
not even know what kind oftherapist you like or need, or
(46:32):
the approach that will be bestfor you until you kind of meet a
few people and try. And it'sjust, you know, giving it a
shot, like you're saying andseeing who might be a good fit,
because maybe on paper, itsounds great. And then you meet
the person and there's justlike, no energy between the two
of you, for whatever reason, oryou might have felt this person
(46:52):
wouldn't be a good match andgave them a shot and like, wow,
this is like, perfect. Youreally get me I feel
comfortable. This is a greatmatch. With the caveat like
Allen Michael Lewis (47:01):
much like in dating that it really be
mindful of what is the what isthe know for you? It might be
like, well, you know, I enteredand I sat down and they didn't
say how are you? Oh, okay,that's that's the No. Be mindful
of like, am I giving this persona shot? And also give it a
(47:22):
couple of sessions? Like, isthis something that we're
ramping up? Because you are justmeeting a stranger? Yeah, I
think it can, you can meetsomebody who is like, Oh, I feel
like I've known you for years,it feels good. This feels like
good work, clicking, clicking,clicking. But also, maybe it's a
relationship where it takes alittle bit of time to get to
know the person and like, oh, wedo good work. But it's taken us
like three sessions to reallyramp up and really understand
(47:44):
each other. Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (47:45):
first session is not going to be like
your world is changed and yourheel, right? Like, they are
literally just getting to knowwho you are, and like the lay of
the land and what's been goingon. And for a few sessions
continuing to do that before wecan really offer a lot of
insight or help you. Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (48:04):
and I think that that's another reason why
Hollywood has really workedagainst us, as therapists,
because in every movie, or everyshow, they go to the therapist
once. Yeah, and that firstsession is how everything
changes. And you're reallyputting bar pretty high. And I
don't think that this isaccurate.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (48:22):
Not realistic. I don't know
everything about you.
Allen Michael Lewis (48:26):
They do the same thing for like dating and
relationships and data, but inthis world, it is a nightmare.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (48:36):
Oh, my goodness. Well, Alan, I want to
be respectful of your time. Ifeel like we could talk for
hours about so many differentthings. So we'll definitely need
to have you back for anotherepisode. But can you please
share with the listeners wherethey can find you to work with
you or to go to counsel?
Allen Michael Lewis (48:52):
Yeah, so if you want to follow me on
Instagram, it's at MSFT foodie.
If you would like to worktogether, you can reach out to
counsel for relationships inPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania. And
that's for anybody I do.
teletherapy like I said, forfolks in Delaware, New Jersey,
Florida. Shout out to New York,New York, hopefully soon, like I
(49:15):
said, and then also in otherparts of Pennsylvania. So going
to www dot counsel forrelationships.org. And you'll be
able to find me there andhopefully we'll be able to work
together. Awesome.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (49:27):
Alan, thank you so much for your time
today. I really appreciate it.
Thank you
You're not going to want to miss this
hilarious and honest episodewith Alan Michael Lewis talking
about our family upbringing,relationship with food and diet
culture, and the cultural normsaround that. Alan also has a
huge impact on the nextgeneration of marriage and
family therapist as the directorof internships at counsel for
relationships. Allen, I'm soexcited for you to be on our
(00:24):
episode today. Thank you so muchfor making the time to join us.
Of course,
Allen Michael Lewis (00:29):
I'm excited and excited to have this
conversation.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (00:35):
Awesome.
So in the beginning, we kind ofjust dive right in, ask the
therapists, kind of like, what'syour origin story? How did you
get into the field and justshare a little bit about
yourself?
Allen Michael Lewis (00:46):
Well, you know, for me, 1776 a nation was
I'm just getting complete works.
And so I think that for me, alot of my origin as a therapist
came out of just coming from avery diverse and different
dynamic kind of family. I'vealways been curious about
(01:08):
backgrounds and upbringings. Andlike where people started off,
and I just kind of thought itwas like, Oh, this is
interesting. And then I realizedthat, you know, in family
therapy, that's literally whatyou do. You kind of like piece
together this puzzle of wherepeople are coming from, what
they're coming with, how theylearned how to navigate through
(01:31):
the world. And I think that whenI found out about family
therapy, I was like, Oh, thisfeels good. This is something
that I really want to get into.
I remember taking my firstfamily therapy course in
undergrad. And I was like, wow,this is really interesting. I
love it. And other people werelike, this isn't for me. And I'm
(01:52):
like, Are you crazy? This issensational. How dare you? So
and then from there, just goinginto really thinking about what
were what do I want to do forgrad school? Where do I want to
go? What do I want to focus onand it was always, you know,
this idea of like relationshiptherapy, family therapy. And so
(02:12):
in grad school, still somethingthat I was really passionate
about, after grad school isstill wanting that to be a focus
of my career. And I think I cansafely say without any type of
chagrin, that I am a systemsnob. I very much am I love
hearing about people's pasts. Idon't like to get stuck with my
(02:34):
clients in their past. Butreally thinking about how their
past informs the here and nowand will inform the future by
think that it all comes down tojust the fact that I'm like
really interested and curiousabout like, where did you come
from? And how did it inform thehere and now? Yeah, so I also am
(02:55):
a very big nerd when it comes tolike genealogy and family
research. So it just feelsnatural.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:03):
I love that maybe that's why we get
along as I love the systems worktoo. And I remember being in
graduate school learning aboutit, and like walking around my
parents house like diagnosingeverybody one by one, like, Oh,
this is my you're like, This iswhy I'm like that.
Allen Michael Lewis (03:21):
Another thing that I do that I think is
really niche is I you know, Ilike to read only fiction,
nonfiction, I'm not really afan. But whenever it's like a
fiction book, I'll do like agenogram, or like a family tree.
Because I'm like, I need to knowthis information. So you like
see some of the books, like openthe page, and it's like a paper,
(03:42):
but I've been cheated grandma,and I'm like, don't judge me.
This is my process. You know?
That
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:48):
is hilarious. I love that. I still
do that for every session in thebeginning. Always do a genogram
I love to learn about the familydynamic, right? I think it is so
important. Like, yes, we'reindividuals. And there's other
things that impact us. Butrelationships and our
upbringing, I feel like is atthe core of what makes us who we
are. And like, you know, wedevelop before seven years old,
(04:12):
we're conditioned with all thesethings, and then it impacts
everything else. So I definitelylove learning about the systems
in the family, too. Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (04:20):
and I owe every session. And this comes
from like my internship days, wehad to do a genogram with every
client that we found. And soeven for every session, I'll
start with a genogram withwhoever I'm working with. And I
always tell the interns that I'mlike supervising or whoever I'm
supervising, like, I'm notsaying well I'm going to do a
(04:41):
genogram with you. It's more oflike the way that I structure my
questions. It's like I want toget a lot of information about
where you came from. And I amlike drawing a genogram is it
using all of the symbols? No. AmI kind of like drawing like
little things around like likedenoting them? But things yes.
But I do it with every clientthat I work with. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:04):
So for the listeners who may not be in
the therapy world, can you kindof describe what a genogram is
for them? So they understandlike what we're laughing about?
Allen Michael Lewis (05:12):
Yeah, so I was I was with my clients, I
would say like a genogram isbasically like a family tree
with a little bit moreinformation. It really is just
kind of mapping out your family,with the different generations
and the people involved. Ialways say like, the key people
in your life. You know, thereare some diagrams that include
(05:34):
dogs and cats, and, you know,best friends. And, you know,
though, you know, those friendsaren't really your family, but
they are your family. Becausethere's, they're important to
you. And, you know, I've donework with clients who have grief
because of, you know, theirfamily dog that has died. And so
it's important to have them onthe genogram. Because, yes,
(05:55):
they're not human, but they arevery important and the work that
we're doing, so it really isjust like, like an ancestry.com,
but I'm reading it out. Andmaybe I don't have all of the
like, you know, birth records,but you know, I have the
information.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (06:10):
Absolutely.
You know, I'm gonna start askingabout family pets. That's a
really good point. I neverthought about that, because that
is pretty huge. I
Allen Michael Lewis (06:17):
am a very big animal person. Well, with a
caveat, I am a fuzzy, animallover kind of person, reptiles
and snakes. If that is yourniche, wonderful, it is not my
minutes. But it's also to theother side of like, I do think I
(06:38):
was like, you know, humansreally missed, missed it when we
didn't domesticate bears. Ireally would want a pet bear.
That is. So anything fuzzy, I'mlike, Yes, I want to talk about
this. But when clients are like,Well, I have a really big, you
know, Python? No, that is lovelyfor you. In the back of our
minds.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (07:00):
That is hilarious. I love to ask the
question. For clients like to,you know, describe like your
mom's personality. But beforeyou do, how would you describe
her when you were growing upversus now as an adult? Because
I feel like that answer isreally different. And how they
perceive that is reallydifferent as well. And you get
(07:21):
so much information from seeingthe difference between those two
answers.
Allen Michael Lewis (07:27):
Yeah, and I also like asking about, you
know, like, the different, likelevels, I always say like, so
starting off with the person,tell me about yourself, tell me
about, you know, who you are inthe here. And now. Tell me, do
you have any siblings? Oh, tellme about the different siblings?
Are you close with them? Andthen working my way up that way?
(07:48):
Because I think that that way,it's kind of like getting the
lay of the land. But then asyou're kind of going through the
different levels, it's like,adding more light into these
different areas of like, Oh, meand my brother don't get along.
Oh, he's very much like myfather. How do you get along
with your father? Well, he'svery authoritarian. I'm like,
(08:10):
you know, so giving us overlylike, kind of like building it
in that way. And then sometimesI'll show the genogram to my
clients. And they'll be like,Wow, that's a lot. And I think
that it's really empowering,because it really shows you all
this is going on. Yeah. And nowI'm doing this work to prevent,
potentially block some of thesepatterns from continuing or
(08:32):
change some of the dynamics orwe're working on this together
to, you know, create a newnarrative for ourselves. By the
loved one, it's like, oh, that'sa lot. And I'm like, Well, yeah,
it's a family. I mean, it's ait's a system, it's, you know,
it's the nitty gritty ofeverything. So it makes sense
that it's a lot.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (08:48):
Absolutely.
And everyone kind of has theirown role. Every sibling, each
parent, right, like thehierarchy of things. It's, I
feel like we could have talkedabout just family therapy for
five hours. I don't know how Ididn't put this on the talking
points. But
Allen Michael Lewis (09:03):
yeah, it's a lot and it's in depth, then I
know that, you know, astherapists were coming in with
our own things, you know,whenever I'm sitting across from
somebody who's like, well, I'mthe youngest. I'm like, Oh, me,
too. I get it. I get it.
Because, you know, then I'll besitting across from somebody
who's like, I'm the oldest andthe youngest is, you know, they
get everything. And I'm like,wow, I don't think we do.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (09:30):
I speak for the group. And
Allen Michael Lewis (09:33):
actually, we, you know,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (09:37):
that's hilarious. And so who do you
like, Who do you work with now?
Where do you work? What's thesetting that you work in for
people to kind of hear a littlebit more about that?
Allen Michael Lewis (09:46):
Yeah, so now I'm currently working at
counsel for relationships, shoutout to counsel for relationship
and I'm doing teletherapy so Iam able to see clients in
Pennsylvania Joe Delaware,Florida in New Jersey, hopefully
New York soon crossed. And so alot of the work that I have been
(10:09):
doing is a lot of patterns work.
And a lot of, you know, hey,we're coming in with this, I'm
noticing this in myrelationships, I'm noticing this
in the dynamic with my partneror with my family members, or
whoever I'm engaging with, whatdoes it look like to outline
that pattern? Block that patternfrom continuing? What would you
need to build a new pattern? Andhow are you going to make sure
(10:34):
that that pattern sticks,because I think that's something
that I work with my clients is,you know, we operate the way we
operate, because we've learnedthat this is how we can get
through life. You know, if Ipull somebody in, I get what I
want. But then when I don't wantanymore, I distance myself and
push them away. And that'sreally like the self protective
(10:55):
method of doing things. But ifI'm in a relationship with
somebody, and I don't want topush them away, but I don't know
how else to do it, then the workreally is how do I block that
pattern from continuing? Whatmight I need to create a new
pattern? And how am I going tomake sure that I'm not going
back to my old pattern, but thatI'm sticking to this new
pattern? And I think that Ibring up this like pattern work?
(11:17):
Because, you know, whether it'san individual, whether it's a
couple, I'm working on thepattern work? And yes, we're
talking about other things whilewe're talking, you know, we're
talking about patterns. But Ithink that at the core of it, it
really is, what do I want tosee? How am I going to get
there? And what might I need toget there? Because I think that
the, the tendency is, I knowwhere I want to go. And oh, if I
(11:39):
could just do this, if I couldjust do this. But folks always
forget about evil, you needtools, you need people, you need
things that are going to helpyou to get to where you want to
go. Absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (11:54):
And I think, especially since you
really dive into systems andfamilies is also recognizing
where this pattern came from,why it served a function before.
And why it's not anymore. Ithink that sometimes there's a
gap between that because wethink like, we just keep doing
this thing, why do I keep doingthis, I know it's bad for me, I
know it's pushing people away,or I'm being too needy or
(12:17):
whatever it is, and we're notalways aware have the insight
of, well, it's not necessarily abad thing, it wasn't always a
bad thing or unhealthy I neededit to survive, or to get through
the relationships while I wasyounger with family members or
siblings to get what I needed.
And now I'm out of thatenvironment. And it's no longer
functioning the way I need itto. So like now I need to revamp
(12:40):
the way I operate inrelationships.
Allen Michael Lewis (12:46):
And I think a lot of the clients that I work
with, they come in with a lot ofshame or blame about the way
that they interact. You know,like, Oh, I'm just unlovable,
nobody can love me, I'm justthis, I'm just that I can't
believe that I acted this way, Iruined all of my relationships.
And I think a lot of the workthat we do is the difference
(13:07):
between blame andaccountability. Like this idea
of blame, it really is justkeeps you stuck. There's nowhere
for you to go. You're justholding this immense pressure,
you're holding all of thisemotional weight. And you can't
go anywhere for accountability.
I think that there is a pathforward, if there's this idea of
I'm recognizing my role. I'mrecognizing what I've done, I'm
(13:31):
recognizing the patterns thatI've played, and it's informing
how I'm going to move forward.
If I push people away, I cantake accountability, but I've
hurt people. And also what doesthat mean, for me moving
forward? How do I no longer hurtpeople? How do I do the work of
(13:51):
not pushing them away? Because Iknow that it's caused harm. So I
think that a lot of our work isthis idea of like, well, how do
I get to this point ofaccountability rather than
blame? Because I don't want tobe stuck anymore. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (14:03):
And that's a tough balance to get
to, especially when the blame ismixed with shame, right? Because
we can kind of really get stuckin like, whether it's self pity
or just feeling horrible aboutourselves and almost not
recognizing the impact becausewe're just feeling so intensely
about ourselves and the thingsthat we've done, that we just
(14:24):
associate like I'm a bad personversus these patterns, or the
way I've learned to interactwith people isn't helpful or
isn't conducive to what I want.
Right? And like the other end islike being entitled is just
like, well, I can do whateverthe hell I want. And it doesn't
matter. So it's finding like Ithink it was, I was at a
conference. I think it was Terryreal he was talking about
(14:44):
finding this balance betweenlike stern love with yourself,
right? It's like, you shouldfeel guilty by hurting somebody
but you shouldn't feel so guiltythat now you're stuck in the
shame. So it's like thataccountability is that middle
piece because If I'm like, Okay,I'm not a bad person, I've just
done something to hurt somebody,I can learn and move forward.
Allen Michael Lewis (15:07):
Yeah, and I think that it's even harder to
when you have that shame. Andalso when you're doing, you
know, like, work with yourpartner. And maybe they're not
ready, necessarily to kind oflike, because I think that it
can be like, if I don't stay inblame, then you get scot free,
you get off scot free, or like,we don't have to ever bring it
(15:28):
up, or my feelings aren't beingvalidated. If I don't stay here,
then you get to do whatever youwant. Once again, and I'm not
heard. And so I think that inworking with partners,
especially, really taking intothe room of you know, you can
take accountability, and stillhold the emotion of the other
(15:49):
person, you don't need blame tovalidate your feelings. Part of
our work is leaning into thatuncomfortable of being mindful,
hey, you hurt me. And we'restill trying to figure it out.
And just because you takeaccountability, it doesn't mean
that my hurt goes away. BecauseI think that that's the biggest
fear. If I allow this person tomove forward, is my pain going
(16:13):
to be disregarded? Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:15):
they're just going to repeat it. Again,
it's not changed behavior. It'sjust an apology, and it doesn't
move anywhere. And
Allen Michael Lewis (16:21):
then I'm enabling them, because I'm
allowing it, I'm allowing ourwork to move forward. And me
just forgetting about everythingwe've done.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:31):
This is the lovely pieces of couples
therapy.
Allen Michael Lewis (16:34):
Yeah. And I think that I've also seen it
like in, you know, couples andfamilies, because even like with
working with parents, this ideaof when I've worked with
individuals, how can I canunderstand where they're coming
from. And if I give them if, ifI forget what they've done to
me, I'm letting them off thehook, I can see that my
(16:57):
grandparents weren't greatparents, I can see that my
parents experienced abuse orneglect, or they were not
equipped to be parents. If Itake that into consideration, am
I then just letting them offscot free? No, my feelings hurt,
my pain hurts. So a lot of thework that I even see with
(17:18):
individuals is, what does itlook like to know that there
might not be a similaraccountability for your parents,
but you can take accountabilityfor what this means for you, and
how it informs you movingforward with them. So it's
really it's a lot of hard work,it's a lot of heavy lifting. And
so I always tell my clients andlike, make sure to be kind to
yourself, you're doing a lot ofdeep work and heavy work. But
(17:41):
it's worthwhile work.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (17:43):
Absolutely.
And it's tough with families, Ithink it's a little bit
different than a romanticpartner. Because there's this
different expectation, orthere's a different level of
loyalty or commitment kind of inthat way. Especially if you're
coming from a very familyoriented background or culture,
where it's like, well, ourparents may be a particular way,
(18:04):
or they aren't the best, orthey're not as emotionally
available or intelligent as Iwould prefer may have needed,
but I don't want to cut them outof my life. And they don't
understand or get a lot of thesethings that they're doing to me.
So it can feel like one sidedwork of like, okay, I'm gonna
empathize, understand them, andthey may not always be able to
(18:27):
meet me where I need them to be.
And it's okay. Sometimes it'sokay, sometimes it's not right.
But that's like a decision forthe individual to make, like,
I'm just going to accept thatthis is the level of closeness I
can maintain with my family inorder to still protect myself
and not cut them off.
Allen Michael Lewis (18:48):
And I think that it comes down to what we're
bringing into the room astherapists too, because there
are therapists, that would belike, Oh, your parent doesn't
treat you well cut them off. Andthey're not taking into
consideration the culture, thebackground, even the idea of
like, if I cut off my parents,I'm also cutting off any type of
contact to my community. Or I'mcutting off any type of contact
(19:11):
to my siblings. And I think thatthat could be detrimental to the
client. I also think, bringingin what you might be
experiencing as a therapist,because for you as a therapist,
maybe you cut off your parents.
And so it's like, oh, it's thebest decision I made. So why not
give it to my clients, when inreality, it might not be the
best and it might not turn outthe same way. So I think that
(19:32):
it's a really tricky part as atherapist to have, like, what am
I bringing into the room?
Because maybe I'm not done withall of the work. I certainly
have not done with all of myfamily of origin work. But you
know, what am I bringing in? Howis that influencing what we're
talking about? Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (19:52):
And I see that a lot and in terms of
like, just being an immigrant aswell and like coming from that
family oriented background. israrely are, am I going to
recommend cutting off a familymember. Because it's like you
said it's so detrimental in somany different ways. And
(20:13):
relationships are reallycomplicated and complex. And
it's not always black and whiteand having that cultural
context. And also knowing thatwhat is kind of the norm within
a culture is not going to be thenorm, and socially acceptable in
let's say, America, right, or,you know, any a different
particular culture. So it's alsokind of not putting our
(20:37):
countertransference on somebodyelse, because, well, my family
or how I was raised, that wouldbe really wrong, really
emotionally abusive. So like,that's horrible. You should not
speak to them. Like, wow, thatcould be a whole culture
operates. Yeah. So we can't haveeverybody.
Allen Michael Lewis (20:54):
Yeah. And as you were talking, I was, I
thought about like, times wherein therapy, folks will talk
about self care. Because I thinkself care is another one of
those things that really islike, blinded, it can be blinded
by a therapist, it's like, well,you know, what I think you
should do, I think you shouldjust schedule a massage. And
just go to this local spa, hereare some referrals. I don't like
(21:18):
spa, massage, listen, comingfrom where I came from, I'm not
going to a spa. I'm not gettinga massage, nobody's touching me.
And also who has money for that,you know, so I think it's
another thing where it's like,sometimes as therapists, you
have to be mindful of being intouch with where your client is
and where they're coming from.
Because some of the thingsyou're suggesting, it's like,
(21:39):
no, that's never gonna fly. Whatare you doing? Yeah, yeah. And
in self care, just irks in mylife anyway, because I think
it's gonna become this, thissense of like, you have to do
something grand and big. Butthat, once again, that could be
another five hour conversation.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (22:01):
So I love your Instagram MFT foodie,
I actually really look forward,I'm like, Oh, I wonder where
he's at this week, to see likethe different coffee shops in
the food. And I love that youreally promote that healthy
relationship with food, wouldyou be able to elaborate or dive
a little bit more into that? Itis
Allen Michael Lewis (22:21):
a journey.
And I think that it's a journeythat a lot of folks have, where
they have this, especially ifyou've grown up in any type of
American culture, you know, youhave this really weird
relationship with food. And it'slike this very big fixture
because it's something that youneed to survive. But it's also
this very grandiose thing thatcan show power and status in all
(22:42):
of these really negative things.
But I think that we also forget,and we also lose touch that it
can be a really nice thing thatbrings people together, that
we're able to connect with, thatyou can nourish your body with,
but in a way that reallyappreciates the ingredients and
appreciates, you know, thedifferent benefits to the body
(23:03):
and the different ways that youinteract with the food or even
just in, like the cognitiveaspect of the pleasure that you
can get from different types offood. And it doesn't always have
to be like, deep fried, toenjoy. It can be just like the
different flavors and thetastes. And I think that it can
be I think that food can reallyjust be this thing that is very
(23:26):
divided, when really it can verymuch be something that you can
just bring people in togetherwith. So I think that when I
think about MFT foodie, itreally is just building this
community of people that I don'thave everything figured out. And
I don't want to be on any typeof spectrum of I only eat boiled
(23:49):
chicken and broccoli and or Ieat whatever I want. And it's
all fried and greasy andeverything. But there can be
this middle where we don't. Wedon't have everything figured
out. But we can learn together.
Because I certainly don't haveeverything figured out. It's
always going to be a foodjourney for myself. But yeah, I
think that I think that that'sreally what my mission was when
(24:11):
I combined two things that Ilove food in therapy.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (24:18):
I love food and food is definitely one
of those things we think aboutpleasure is just all the
different memories caught up inlike different kinds of food
too, whether it's like fromgrowing up or different places
you're at or like the experienceyou're having with food and
sharing it with people. And it'sinteresting thinking about also
from a cultural perspective ofhow different every culture or
(24:41):
similarly treats therelationship with food, but also
within the family. And thenwithin that culture of how they
expect romantic relationships toor like how you view yourself
within that too. Because I'mthinking about, like my
background like Eastern Europeanis is very contradictory. You
(25:03):
know, feeding your family is alove language. And having you
know, your children and yourgrandchildren eat everything off
the plate is like a sign of likelove and respect. And if they
don't, it's like you didn't likemy food, like, you're gonna be
hungry. But then at the sametime, it's like, well, if you
(25:23):
gain weight, or if you look aparticular way, who will marry
you? And it's like, yes, veryconfusing and conflicting. And
that's just like, the commonnarrative around it at least in
like my background.
Allen Michael Lewis (25:37):
Yeah, and I think that that's why, you know,
we're in a very big season ofeating. But then also, I don't
know if you're a Hunger Gamesfan, but the the new movie just
came out. And I think I'll readand I'm like, Oh, God, I'm a
capital citizen. I'm a capitalcitizen. For anybody who doesn't
know. Suzanne Collins, I thinkshe wrote as like a symbol of,
(26:02):
you know, the traditionaloverabundance, overindulgence
kind of like American mentalityfor the capital citizens, they
always want more, they alwayscrave more, they have a drink
that they drink to throw up sothey can eat more food. Yeah. So
it really very much is this ideaof food shows a sense of, oh,
(26:25):
this is how far I've come. Or Ican, oh, this is a big deal. I
can do this, I can do this. Butthen it also has this really
negative side of things of like,oh, but don't get too fat. Like
you were saying, Oh, don't dothis, or, Oh, don't eat this, or
I can't believe you know, youate that because now you don't
deserve. And that's a big thing.
It's like LF IV and dessert, Idon't deserve this, or I can't
(26:47):
eat the next day, or I have toexercise out all the food that
I've just eaten. And it reallyis this like very big yo yo of
these counter intuitive andcontradictory statements that we
tell ourselves, oh, if I'veeaten too much, I don't deserve
to have my partner, my partnerwill never love me. So just a
really strange thing. And it'salso those internal messages
(27:11):
that maybe aren't so drasticthat we never think about. It's
like, oh, this is a bad food. Idon't want to eat that because
it's bad. And it's like, oh,what's bad about it? Well, it
has a lot of sugar. Well, sugarin itself isn't necessarily bad.
Some people will be like, No, itis high fructose corn syrup.
(27:31):
Okay, that's fine. But I'm justreally thinking about these like
internal messages where we'vejust maybe they're not as
drastic, but we carry themaround. And they've impacted our
relationship with food. And wereally need to consider them. I
have
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (27:46):
a newborn daughter now. And so the
way I talk about my body, and myrelationship with food, is
something that's directly goingto impact her and how she thinks
about herself and herrelationship with food. So I'm
trying to be really consciousof, I'm conditioning myself
around that. Yeah.
Allen Michael Lewis (28:04):
And I think it's even like socioeconomic
status, its its gender, itsracial. Because, you know,
apparently, well, my familywasn't well off at all. But my,
I think that my older siblingswould say, like, oh, you had it
great, because we were up enoughwhen I was born. But really
(28:24):
being mindful that if you arereally struggling to meet, you
know, to meet the needs of thekids, or, you know, you don't
have money for food, or you'rerelying on donations, or
whatever it might be, you know,you really have to think about,
I don't know, when my next foodis going to come in, I'm going
to just kind of indulge, or it'sgoing to be high, high fat, high
(28:46):
salt, high everything kind offood. And that's what your
body's going to get used to. Soit makes sense that it's going
to be this like, famine andfeast kind of mentality. And how
does that trickle down? Even if,you know, I was born on the up
and up, you know, how is thatstill going to be something that
my family lives off of? And thatmentality continues? And I think
(29:08):
I even see it with some of theclients that I'm working with.
It's like, Oh, we didn't havethis, but now I do. And now I'm
hoarding or now I like consume alot of or this is a comfort of
mine. And really thinking aboutwell, like it has an origin
serves a purpose. So itshouldn't be coming from a place
of shame. It should be somethingthat we acknowledge and we honor
(29:30):
that that was how you had toreally think, and what are some
other ways that we can shiftthat thinking and what are some
of the supports that you mightneed to to assist with your
journey?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (29:43):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's such a good
point to think about that, likeancestrally like throughout,
whether it's like your parentsor your grandparents or your
great grandparents, right?
Because that is passed down likethat intergenerational trauma or
beliefs or narratives becauseI'm thinking about like, you
know, I came from former SovietUnion and my parents and
grandparents and greatgrandparents and you know,
(30:04):
several before that was incommunism, or like there was a
lot of food insecurity. Andlike, our diets are made up of
meat, potatoes, bread and fat.
Yeah, right. And like, I lovethat, but it's, you know,
thinking about like, yeah, thatmakes sense why they ate that is
to feel full, because otherwisehe didn't have enough food. Or
(30:25):
it would go back because thereweren't preservatives and like
that being passed down, I thinkis really important for people
to also to recognize, I thinkthat's such a great point to
think about, like, it's not justyou right now. Or even your
parents, it's like, how long agodid this kind of really instill
this message of the type of foodyou needed to survive?
Allen Michael Lewis (30:46):
And I think like the cutting out of food,
too, can also be cutting outdifferent cultural things that
are very important to you. Ialways think about times where
it's like, well, have you everthought about not eating, you
know, beans and rice, they'revery heavy. And I just like feel
like this, like, ancestral, likeimmediate head snap from like,
all of my answers. And I'm like,I'm pretty sure that there are
(31:10):
1000s of ancestors and 1000s ofparts of the world that have
just screamed in their grave,because literally, rice and
beans have provided for manymultitudes of people. So I think
really not going the other sideof like, oh, this is bad, let's
cut it out. But more of like,yes, they have survived off of
these things. And let's reallyput it into context. Maybe
(31:31):
ancestors who ate a lot of riceand beans, were, you know, doing
a lot more than me who's doingteletherapy in my apartment, you
know? So really being mindful oflike, How much am I consuming?
How can I still have it in mydiet, and also take into
consideration my differentactivity level than what my
ancestors would be doing? Andbecause I think that putting it
(31:52):
into context allows for a littlebit more of grounding and
strength, rather than feelinglike I have to do this very
hardcore thing. And this veryrestrictive thing, because then
it's going to feel like well, Idon't want to but I have to, as
opposed to coming from thisplace of rounding of figuring it
out. And maybe there are goingto be some trial and error, but
at least I'm coming from a placeof strength.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (32:13):
Yeah.
And different lifestyle,different environment, different
needs and demands of you. Yeah.
Allen Michael Lewis (32:20):
And I think that it's really just unfair,
that, you know, the high caloriefoods are the delicious food,
like we said that some peoplewould be like, Well, hey, you
know, like, turnips aredelightful. Compared to cake.
(32:41):
That, you know,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (32:43):
I'm like, I know, thinking about
like, not eating a potato. Therest of my life would feel like
a betrayal. Like you're saying,like rice and beans, like, What
do you mean?
Allen Michael Lewis (32:53):
I did, I was in New York City. Food
capital, potentially. Delhi, Idid hear is, you know, kind of
building up there. And I wassitting in a coffee shop, and I
just heard somebody next to me.
And they were talking abouttheir food. Yeah, I just had
this really great dinner. I'mlike, this is exciting. Because
I'm used dropping. I'm atherapist by trade. So I'm
(33:15):
listening. And he's like, I hadboiled chicken or my elbow, me
like, and I had some potatoes,just like two. And I was like,
like, whole calves. And thenhe's like, and then I had some,
like, some steamed broccoli.
And, you know, I cut it up intohalf, and then I saved the other
half for tomorrow. And, youknow, I feel good. And I'm about
(33:37):
to go to the gym. And I'm like,in New York City. I don't know
if I would have that restraint.
God bless you, sir. Because Ilisten, I'm going to, and that
is my cross to bear. But really,like, did they have to make it?
Like, why couldn't if you biteinto a pair, it was like, you
know, cheesecake? Or wonderful.
(33:58):
You know,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (33:59):
we'll say some fruit definitely hits
the spot.
Allen Michael Lewis (34:02):
Yeah. And I think that's something I like.
So I work with a nutritionist,shout out to body metric in
royersford. Whoo. But they weretalking about how, you know,
there are certain foods thatyou're going to just be craving,
and you're gonna be like, Yes,this is what I want. And as
opposed to being like, oh, I canonly eat this. And that's it.
(34:25):
But really thinking about howcan I have this food and other
foods that are going to fill mebeing atrocious, get me the
things that I need for my bodyto function. And that was a
really big change. Oh, you know,like, as opposed to like, Oh, if
you eat this one bad thing, youcould that's all you can eat.
You can't eat anything else,because you're too high in
calories. But really thinkingabout it in a way of like, How
(34:47):
can I have this need met, whilealso getting these other
nutrients that I need? And soit's a more adding to Yeah, as
opposed to like taking away fromYeah, and kind
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (34:57):
of listening to what your body
needs, right? Because you'resaying And like you're not
always, someone's not alwaysgoing to want fried foods just
because it's tasty sometimes,like, we just got a pizza oven,
and we have been going ham onmaking homemade pizzas. There
was like, the second day, I waslike, I can't do it anymore.
Like, I feel like I just wantsomething fresh, like I want to
(35:18):
vegetable I want to salad. Andthat was just my body telling me
like, this is delicious, forsure. And we're going to do this
next weekend. But like, I can't,I don't want it anymore, which
was interesting, because in mymind, I'm like, I need pizza
every day. I
Allen Michael Lewis (35:33):
think that that's, we That's why I can
really understand the seasons.
Because like, it's the earth wayof saying you don't need this
thing all the time. If, ifwatermelon existed the entirety
of the year, I would eat everyday. It's delight, watermelon
peaches. I've been in araspberry era. It's pretty
exciting.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (35:57):
That's hilarious. I feel like this
could just turn into a foodshow. I'm just thinking about.
Allen Michael Lewis (36:03):
I actually transition to my kitchen. I'm
like, Hey, we're going to Iwould love to incorporate that
into therapy. But I know I knowmy boundaries. And I know that
if we did something and itdidn't turn out, I would be more
than be the client. I'd be like,what you weren't so hard, you
know. So I'm like, I don't thinkthat I will be incorporating
(36:26):
cooking. But I know that itcould be really beneficial for
people in therapy. That
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (36:32):
would actually be a really cool
experiential way to process andheal some things.
Allen Michael Lewis (36:38):
Oh, there was a really great tic toc or I
forget, I think her name isAlicia. No, I don't think so.
But she was talking abouthealing her inner child. And one
of those things was that shebought a box of brownie mix. And
when she was a child, they hadto do the brownies a certain
way. They couldn't eat them onlyuntil their her stepmother said
(37:04):
that they could eat them. Andthey had to be served in a
different in a specific way thanto be cut in a certain way. And
there was a time where somethinghad happened where she was
reprimanded for something shedidn't do. And it was really
tied to this. So part of herhealing her inner child was she
made the box of brownies, shedid it in a completely different
way than she had to when she wasa child. And then when they were
(37:26):
done, she didn't wait for themto cool. She cut a triangle, I
think it was in the middle ofthe pan, and then just scooped
it out and ate it over the pan.
And I thought it was reallygreat because it really was this
idea of I'm honoring this pastthat I've had. And I'm honoring
what I really wanted from when Iwas a child. And now I'm able to
(37:47):
do it. Because I have a littlebit more control over my
narrative. And I can really healthat part of me by saying like
you didn't do wrong, justbecause you did things in a
different way. It's okay to dothings differently.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (38:02):
I really love that. That's also
how I eat food. Yes.
Allen Michael Lewis (38:08):
I am a dance mom when it comes to
baking. Because I'll be like No,not yet, or we have to do this.
So that's why I'm just like, youknow, maybe baking is a personal
thing that I do for myself. It'snot really a group activity. And
that's part of knowing yourboundaries and knowing your
(38:29):
capacity. And I talked aboutthat with my clients all the
time. Because I think I think,you know, I'll be talking with
friends and yeah, maybe like ourkids, you know, like, could come
over and you like bake withthem. And I'm like, or I get all
of the ingredients. And then Isend it to your house where you
live. You know, like, I don'twant to be that person who is
(38:51):
like, No, you didn't decorateready to like the chat. Now your
capacities, understand yourcapacities. And it's okay to
honor your capacity,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:00):
that self awareness and insight.
Allen Michael Lewis (39:04):
It came at, you know, like, there were a
couple of times where I wascooking or baking with
something, somebody and I'mlike, I have to breathe through.
I have to be through it. Thatwas about to lose the plot.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:17):
And then there was Thanksgiving
dinner. Oh,
Allen Michael Lewis (39:21):
it's it's it's Christmas. For me. My
Christmas has to be this way.
But yeah, well, I'll get there.
We'll get there.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:32):
That's so funny. I did want to touch on
so I know that you work atcounsel for relationships, and
you're the director ofinternships. And can you share a
little bit about that experiencebecause you have all of these
budding Marriage and FamilyTherapists about to go into the
field. So you get to mold theminds of all of these new
therapists coming out. Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (39:54):
so CFR currently has 75 Yeah, it is a
You can laugh riot. But I thinkthat it's great because we live,
we literally see, folks, youknow, some of our interns have
never seen clients before, inany type of context, some of
them have seen them in otherlike group therapies or other
(40:14):
settings. So it's really cool tosee somebody who's just starting
out and see them go through thedifferent, you know, feelings of
being a first time therapist andthen getting a little bit more
comfortable, and then getting tothe end of their program and
then launching into the, intothe field and having their first
clients wherever they'reworking. So I think it's really
cool to be able to see, like,literally from the beginning,
(40:37):
their growth happening. And Ialso supervise in the program.
So it's really cool to be ableto be part of, you know,
people's initial steps asclinicians, it can come with a
lot of trials and tribulations.
But overall, it really is thisawesome time to really just be
able to see people blossom. AndI always say it's like, if you
(40:58):
know, when when I use a when Idon't say, when you have the
career that you want, and you'vewritten your book, or you've
written whatever you would liketo do. Just remember in that
little acknowledgement sectionfor Alan was positive, yeah, it
might be just positive, youknow, you really taught me
(41:19):
everything, it also might bethat negative for Alan, because
I've thrived in spite of becausethere is part of this director
role where it is like, you haveto do this, you have to do that,
to show that you do this, youhave to, you know, kind of being
the heavy. So whether it's inspite of or because of the
shadow is appreciated. There'sno bad press. There is not.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (41:45):
That's awesome, though. And so during
those classes that you have withthem, is it helping them find
the internship or they'reinterning at Council, and then
you're kind of doing thatsupervision class with them to
talk through everything thatthey're going through? Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (41:58):
so they're interning at the council. So we
take students from ThomasJefferson University, and then
we've have partnerships withUniversity of Pennsylvania
Temple University, Bryn MawrCollege, West, Chester
University, all of thesedifferent places that we're
really trying to buildconnections with. And so they'll
(42:19):
come here, they'll do theirclinical placement with us. I
supervise with the master'slevel students. So we'll meet
either for two hours, dependingon if I'm meeting with two
people or one hour if I'mmeeting with one. And it really
is to watch over their caseload,watch it, watch their case
videos, and talk about what'sgoing on clinically. Because I
(42:40):
think that the thing is that alot of the folks that are in our
internship, they have thisinnate ability to meet clients
where they are talking aboutwhat they're experiencing. So
for those who are listening, whoare like, Oh, I don't know about
seeing an intern for therapy,no, it really give it a shot.
And really, really go with anopen mind. Because a lot of
(43:00):
these folks are in this field,because they want to help and
they want to meet you where theyare, you are and they want, you
know, you to achieve your goals.
And they have the skill setinnately of listening or
connecting with you or joiningor really just holding what you
have to say, which is somethingthat sometimes our family and
our friends don't do well. Sothey really are coming in with
(43:22):
these skills that we're now justteaching, hey, here's a
technique, here are some, youknow, theories to apply to what
you already are doing. That'show you do a therapy session,
you know, so I think that it isreally amazing, being able to
invest in the skills that peopleare coming in with, and allow
(43:45):
them to flourish in this new wayof, oh, now I'm able to use my
skills, but I'm also attachingtheory, I'm also attaching
clinical practices to it, andhelping people in the meantime.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (43:59):
And they really do care. I mean,
obviously, we still care astherapists, but I think like
when you really start you justlike the amount of care you
have, and compassion, empathy,and like you just want to do so
well, that sometimes we go aboveand beyond. Brian, you have to
like reel it in a little bit.
But it is true. I mean, forpeople listening, if you have
the opportunity to see an internlike, I don't think it's
(44:20):
necessarily a negativeexperience, just because they're
not as experienced in the field.
They actually care so much andwant to see you do well and grow
and heal. So I think it's agreat experience. I think it's
awesome. That counsel providesthat till Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (44:38):
and I think especially, it's just really
interesting. I talked to a lotof people who are like, well, I
can't I haven't been able tofind a therapist and I'm like,
what's going on and they'relike, everybody's fall or
everybody's busy every I can'tafford it. I think that like
price can always be a barrier.
So I think that it's great thatwe have these 75 people who
really are just eager to helpand eager to learn, and they're
(45:01):
learning from their supervisor,and they're implementing it in
the therapy. And it really islike a, if you reach out, you
really get connected withsomebody very quickly. So I
think, you know, that's what Ialways say like, don't let the
sun go down on interns. I thinktherapists are just like
(45:22):
anything else, if it's not yourcup of tea, or if it's not the
person that connects with you,it's not the person who connects
with you. But don't let it justbe because oh, they're an intern
or they don't have a licenseyet, that really deters you from
seeing somebody, if you mightmeet them. And it might be a
really great fit, and reallygood connection and something
that you really need where youare then. And that might be
somebody who's like, we don'treally jive together, and that's
(45:45):
completely fine. I always say tomy clients, like, if it's not
me, that's completely fine. I'mhere to help you however I can
and get you to where you need tobe. But I think that it can be
really hard taking that firststep of, you know, what, if it
doesn't work out, I think thatthat's part of the therapy
practice. And I think that'spart of the therapeutic journey.
So don't let that be a reasonwhy you're not reaching out for
(46:07):
therapy. Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (46:09):
and I think I say this a lot to
clients, or even people who arelooking for a therapist, like,
it is a lot like dating, youknow, like you're going to meet,
I mean, I think you're going tobe really lucky if the first
therapists you meet is like thematch, because that's
incredible. But that doesn'talways happen. Because you may
not even know what kind oftherapist you like or need, or
(46:32):
the approach that will be bestfor you until you kind of meet a
few people and try. And it'sjust, you know, giving it a
shot, like you're saying andseeing who might be a good fit,
because maybe on paper, itsounds great. And then you meet
the person and there's justlike, no energy between the two
of you, for whatever reason, oryou might have felt this person
(46:52):
wouldn't be a good match andgave them a shot and like, wow,
this is like, perfect. Youreally get me I feel
comfortable. This is a greatmatch. With the caveat like
Allen Michael Lewis (47:01):
much like in dating that it really be
mindful of what is the what isthe know for you? It might be
like, well, you know, I enteredand I sat down and they didn't
say how are you? Oh, okay,that's that's the No. Be mindful
of like, am I giving this persona shot? And also give it a
(47:22):
couple of sessions? Like, isthis something that we're
ramping up? Because you are justmeeting a stranger? Yeah, I
think it can, you can meetsomebody who is like, Oh, I feel
like I've known you for years,it feels good. This feels like
good work, clicking, clicking,clicking. But also, maybe it's a
relationship where it takes alittle bit of time to get to
know the person and like, oh, wedo good work. But it's taken us
like three sessions to reallyramp up and really understand
(47:44):
each other. Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (47:45):
first session is not going to be like
your world is changed and yourheel, right? Like, they are
literally just getting to knowwho you are, and like the lay of
the land and what's been goingon. And for a few sessions
continuing to do that before wecan really offer a lot of
insight or help you. Yeah,
Allen Michael Lewis (48:04):
and I think that that's another reason why
Hollywood has really workedagainst us, as therapists,
because in every movie, or everyshow, they go to the therapist
once. Yeah, and that firstsession is how everything
changes. And you're reallyputting bar pretty high. And I
don't think that this isaccurate.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (48:22):
Not realistic. I don't know
everything about you.
Allen Michael Lewis (48:26):
They do the same thing for like dating and
relationships and data, but inthis world, it is a nightmare.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (48:36):
Oh, my goodness. Well, Alan, I want to
be respectful of your time. Ifeel like we could talk for
hours about so many differentthings. So we'll definitely need
to have you back for anotherepisode. But can you please
share with the listeners wherethey can find you to work with
you or to go to counsel?
Allen Michael Lewis (48:52):
Yeah, so if you want to follow me on
Instagram, it's at MSFT foodie.
If you would like to worktogether, you can reach out to
counsel for relationships inPhiladelphia, Pennsylvania. And
that's for anybody I do.
teletherapy like I said, forfolks in Delaware, New Jersey,
Florida. Shout out to New York,New York, hopefully soon, like I
(49:15):
said, and then also in otherparts of Pennsylvania. So going
to www dot counsel forrelationships.org. And you'll be
able to find me there andhopefully we'll be able to work
together. Awesome.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (49:27):
Alan, thank you so much for your time
today. I really appreciate it.
Thank you
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