June 6, 2025 • 39 mins
The medical establishment has long proclaimed that sugar feeds cancer, leading patients down a path of extreme carbohydrate restriction and high-protein diets. But what if this fundamental assumption is flawed? In this groundbreaking conversation, Joe Grumbine and Dr. Robert Hoffman explore the revolutionary concept of methionine restriction and how it's creating miraculous results in Joe's own cancer battle.
Joe shares his remarkable transformation—from facing death six weeks ago to witnessing his tumor rapidly shrink while regaining strength and vitality. His journey challenges conventional cancer treatment wisdom by embracing a fruit-filled diet that many would consider dangerous for cancer patients. Dr. Hoffman explains the science behind this counterintuitive approach: cancer cells aren't primarily addicted to glucose but to methionine, an amino acid abundant in animal proteins.
The conversation delves into the fascinating mechanism that makes this approach so effective. Methionine restriction arrests cancer cells during division, making them more vulnerable targets for chemotherapy. This synergistic effect explains why Joe's tumor is responding so dramatically to treatment when previous approaches failed. Through PET scan evidence and clinical outcomes, Dr. Hoffman illustrates why methionine restriction offers a more targeted approach to starving cancer cells than glucose restriction.
We follow Joe's strategic discussions with his oncology team as he advocates for a pathological complete response (PCR) through continued chemotherapy rather than radiation. His story serves as both inspiration and practical roadmap for others facing similar battles. By sharing specific treatment strategies, blood tests to request, and conversations to have with medical providers, this episode provides actionable information for patients seeking alternatives to conventional cancer treatment protocols.
Whether you're battling cancer yourself or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers hope through a scientifically-grounded approach that complements traditional medicine. Tune in to discover how rethinking cancer's nutritional dependencies might transform treatment outcomes and quality of life for patients worldwide. Ready to challenge what you thought you knew about cancer? Listen now and share this potentially life-saving information with those who need it most.
Intro for podcast
information about subscriptions
Here is the link for Sunday's 4 pm Pacific time Zoom meeting
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living
Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today we have a very special
guest, dr Robert Hoffman.
And Robert, welcome back to theshow.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thank you, Joe.
Always a pleasure to be on yourshow and so you're
international again.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Tell us what's going on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Okay, tell us what's going on.
Okay, well, the main purpose ofmy trip was to conduct some
procedures, some paperprocedures.
We have a subsidiary company, asubsidiary cancer company in
(00:53):
Korea, called Metabio, so thatwas my purpose for this trip.
I had to show up in person forit, and it's a nice company.
They're doing a lot of goodthings for the cancer patient,
and so that was my purpose forthe trip.
Of course, I'd rather be backin the laboratory, where I
(01:15):
belong, but it's okay, yourmission is very strong and
you're getting a lot of positivework done.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Sometimes it means you got to do administrative
things, and other times you geta play in the lab right.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's right.
That's right, Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I totally understand.
I do the same thing.
I love to formulate andexperiment, but most of the time
you just got to get out thereand work.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So I have a lot of update to share with you, and I
think a lot of this has to dowith I've really taken on the
mantle of this paradigm.
I have come to an understandingand an awareness of the
importance of this diet andunderstanding some things about
(02:09):
cancer that just people don'tseem to understand.
And wherever I go, I hear thesame stories.
You know, you got to cut thesugar out, you got to cut the
carbs out and meanwhile they'reeating all this meat and protein
.
And I cringe now when I hearthese things because I just know
that's what I was doing whenthis tumor was growing so
(02:30):
rapidly and no matter what I did, it wasn't stopping.
And I know that this experiencethat I've gone through has been
life changing.
Obviously it's given me a voiceand a tool that can get
people's attention in a way thatmaybe not everybody can.
(02:54):
And today I was able to speak atthe Rotary Club on behalf of my
nonprofit, where we do thegarden therapy and things like
that, and we're looking to getsome support from them.
But I was able to tell them mystory and you know this has only
been a five week, less than sixweeks, since I was at death's
(03:16):
door.
I mean, I was really in adifficult place and I was
struggling, you know, in everyway possible and we were
literally scrambling, trying tocome up with answers and get
them implemented.
And in the last six weeksthere's been this, you know,
complete miracle that's happened, and I only say miracle because
(03:38):
it's miraculous, not that itwas necessarily this
supernatural thing.
It was a really good, solidplan that we executed and did a
lot of hard work to cause thismiracle to happen.
But I was able to tell thestory to these people and I was
told at the end of thispresentation by the Rotary Club
(04:00):
that this was the mostinspirational story that they've
heard from any of their gueststhey've ever had, and I thought
that is so fantastic.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, that is really fantastic.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yes, and this is the Rotary Club.
They have guests every week ontheir thing and they're an
international organization.
And I just thought to myselfthat is powerful, because after
this little presentation, everysingle one of them came up to me
and shook my hand and asked mequestions and I thought to
myself this is a gift I have theability to share some truths
(04:34):
that I've learned and help somepeople save their lives and
hopefully reach out, andhopefully this message will
reach the medical community andpractitioners and doctors at one
point will listen.
And I want to share the storywith you.
Since we last spoke, it's beena couple of weeks, but this
(05:00):
tumor has continued to shrink.
I've continued to gain tumorhas continued to shrink.
I've continued to gain strengthand I'm even putting some
weight on and still maintainingthe diet very strictly.
I'm just taking on some more.
You know things like potatoesand these glass noodles and
things like that that have alittle calories, but hitting it
(05:21):
with the enzyme, doubling up mymethionine A's and just making
sure that I don't give itanything to eat.
But I was thinking and you knowI'm always trying to learn more
and trying to understand.
You know this.
Like you say, doctors don'tknow cancer.
They don't know it and you knowthey try to affect it and
change it.
But the truth is there's moreunknown than there is known
(05:45):
about this condition they callcancer and it's unique to every
individual that has it.
But there are certain thingsthat are a threat of consistency
.
There are truths that affect it, like the methionine addiction
and that sort of thing.
So in this diet I go counter toeverything I believed was right
(06:07):
and I eat a lot of fruit, andfruit is a big part of my diet
right now, and you know where Iwas coming from with the keto
and the sugar removal and all ofthis fruit was like kryptonite
right, it's got a fructose, adouble sugar.
It's hard for your body, itfeeds the cancer.
Everything about it was wrongand so I wasn't eating any of it
(06:30):
.
I was eating a lot ofvegetables and a lot of protein.
That was primarily my diet.
And so, since sitting with thegroup the four o'clock Sunday
group for about three months now, almost four months listening
to all the people and theirexperiences and many of them
have been battling and dealingand managing their cancer for
(06:52):
many years with this diet andthis, these practices you got to
listen to them right.
You know if the what they'redoing is working.
You, you, you got to take noteof that, which I certainly have,
and Dr Exime and all of hisstrategies, and you know your
ideas and all this, and it cameto me.
So, with this chemotherapy thatwe came up with, it's three
(07:16):
drugs.
They're potent drugs, not alight dose.
I'm having a very meaningfuldose and it hits me hard, I know
it.
But the way chemotherapy works,the way I understand it, is it
gets into your bloodstream andattaches to the glucose
molecules and it floats aroundin your, in your bloodstream,
and the, the cells that are themost active are the ones that
(07:39):
are taking it in the most rightand okay, well, the chemo
doesn't attach to glucose, okay,um, it gets into the cell by it
, gets into all the cells, um,by themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
That's one symptom of getting into all the cells is,
you lost your hair, sure, and ithad a big effect on the hair,
because the hair cells, thecells that produce the hair,
hair is not alive anymore, butit's from cells that were formed
by living cells, and thosecells are the most rapidly
(08:20):
dividing in the body, more thanalmost any cancer.
So they're very susceptible tochemotherapy.
This type of chemotherapyyou're getting, we call it
cytotoxic chemotherapy, celltoxic, okay.
So, and the cancer cell?
(08:41):
Actually, there's not enough ofthem dividing at any one time,
very often, to get the desiredeffect of killing a lot of them.
If the cancer cell is notdividing, or any cell that's not
dividing, is resistant to thekind of chemo you're getting,
(09:04):
resistant, it doesn't affect anon-dividing cell.
So the methionine restriction,diet and methioninase, what it
does?
It selectively arrests thecancer cells when they're trying
to divide.
So this is the key.
So there's more and more cellsthat are then targets for your
(09:29):
chemo because of the methioninerestriction.
That's the principle, got it?
It's really simple.
The methionine restriction hasan effect on the cancer cells
and not the normal cells, thatit arrests them when they're
trying to divide.
They need more methionine tocontinue their division.
(09:52):
They don't have it and by beingstuck or arrested in this
attempt to divide when they'retrying to replicate, their DNA
makes them more susceptible tothe chemo than they would have
been if you weren't onmethionine restriction.
So that's a point.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Got it.
So do you think that thesubstantial addition of fruit,
which has a lot of sugar in it,in addition to all the fiber and
the things I know it getsreleased at a metered rate, but
still I eat a lot of fruit.
Do you think that the cancercells are going to feed off of
(10:32):
that?
Even if they can't divide,they're still taking in this
energy.
And do you think that thataffects in any way the chemo's
ability to get in there and findit?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
No, oh, okay, I think it affects the ability of the
chemo to enter the cancer cells.
Got it?
All cells need sugar, all cellsneed sugar, all cells need
glucose.
(11:08):
This is their fuel, theirenergy source.
They need it.
But in order to kill cancer, youneed to find something that the
cancer cell needs much morethan the normal cells.
It's not glucose, it'smethionine, right, right.
(11:32):
How do we know that?
Well, we know it, for example,from your, your great reaction,
your great response.
That tells us just volumes,absolutely.
We also know it by PET imaging.
So PET imaging can use aradioactive form of glucose or a
(11:59):
radioactive form of methionineand when you compare them head
to head and not all, but most,maybe the vast majority you get
a better signal from theradioactive methionine PET.
Why?
Because the difference in theuptake of the radioactive
(12:23):
methionine, the requirement inthe cancer cells, is much more
than the surrounding tissue.
So you get a big signal.
Regarding glucose, you get somesignal.
The cancer cells seem to need alittle bit more glucose than
the surrounding tissue, but thesignal is often weak.
So the addiction to methionineis much greater in the cancer
(12:49):
cells than the addiction toglucose.
So that's what we want totarget.
You target glucose.
You're going to die, you gointo this complete starvation.
Glucose is just not targetable.
The brain needs more glucosethan any cancer Agreed.
(13:12):
So glucose is just not a target.
And yeah, anything you eat willfeed the cancer.
But if the cancer is notgetting enough methionine, then
that overcomes everything.
(13:32):
The cancer then gets into bigtrouble, stops dividing and it
becomes the target for thechemotherapy.
If the cancer were like a petridish in the laboratory, we
wouldn't need chemo.
We could starve the cancer ofmethionine sufficiently.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
We don't need the chemo.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
But the body is more complex.
We can't not.
We can't really starve thecancer for methionine like we
did we would in a petri dish.
So we need chemo to help us outand you're the great example of
this oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You know I'm going to tell you a little trick that
I've done and I know you'reprobably not going to like it,
but I believe it's working.
And I only do it generally theday or two after I get the
infusion.
So I've got two of the chemodrugs in me and the third one is
pumping in me for five days.
So my bloodstream is full ofthis stuff and generally I'll
(14:35):
fast for the first dayafterwards.
So I fast for two days before,one day after, and then when I
break my fast, usually within 24hours of breaking the fast I
will eat one egg and I'll let itin my system for about an hour
and then I'll take.
(14:55):
What do you do?
For an hour I eat one egg andfor about an hour I leave it in
my system and I let my bodyabsorb that for an hour, and so
I know the cancer is going to go.
Ha ha, I got some methionine.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Not that much.
One egg is not that much.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
No, but it's a lot more than it's getting normally,
and that's true Something.
And then, after that hour, Ihit myself with methionine A's
and then, about three hourslater, I hit it again.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And there you go.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I think that's a very , very interesting and good
strategy, yeah, so I think whatit does and again, it's just my,
I'm experimenting on myself andclearly the results are well,
are not causing me harm.
But I think what it does, evenbriefly, is it flares it up,
causes it to get active, becomesa bigger target, and then I
(15:45):
shut it back off again.
Well, one time.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You know, whatever you're doing, joe, it's working
so and it's working fantasticyeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
So that's my little secret.
Uh, chess move that.
I play one one time.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I think it's good yeah, the thing next, joe is um,
I, uh, um, worried a little bit, uh, uh, you're going to see
the chemo doctor on on mondaytomorrow I I do a video
conference with the chemo doctorand then monday I get my last
(16:24):
infusion okay.
So I think you what this?
I think you tell her that yourtarget is a pathological
complete response.
(16:45):
Pathological complete response.
They abbreviate that.
They love abbreviations andacronyms, so you abbreviate that
(17:05):
with a lowercase p, uppercase c, uppercase r PCR pathologic,
complete response.
This is your goal and you thinkyou can get it with the chemo.
Of course they're going to haveto take a biopsy, uh, but
(17:25):
that's, that's okay.
Yeah, um, so you tell herthat's my goal.
I want a pcr okay um p.
Pcr has another meaning inmolecular biology polymerase
chain reaction, but this ispathological.
Complete response.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
That means, you take the biopsy.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
The pathologist looks at it under the microscope
after a couple procedures andcannot see any more cancer cells
.
Okay, that's a pathological,complete response.
Okay, so you tell her that'swhat I'm going for and then
maybe discuss with her uh, morechemo after after monday yeah,
(18:12):
yeah, because that was really mything you want to get a PCR
Right, then I don't know, maybethat's enough to talk about now.
Later on we're going to talkabout taking some kind of chemo
over long periods, perhaps alifetime, like Chihiro is doing.
(18:37):
We call maintenance chemo Right.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That would likely be an oral situation.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
It has to be something oral, otherwise it's
too inconvenient.
But I think you tell her youwant a pathological complete
response.
You're going for that with thechemo PCR and maybe ask her
maybe you can get more cycles ofthe present chemo or change the
(19:05):
chemo.
But I don't think, joe, I don'tthink, I don't think that you
can get a PCR from just thesethree cycles.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I think you're probably right.
I know that this thing took alot of time.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
They can do a biopsy on you in a couple of weeks,
which is okay.
It's okay, they can see, but Ithink you need more.
And she even mentioned thatit's possible that this chemo
will go all the way.
Right, she did, she did, andpossibly instead of maybe before
(19:46):
the biopsy to get something avery, very high resolution scan
like a PET scan, high resolutionscan like a PET scan.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Well, what?
What she has already suggestedand I think she's putting the
order in is this cycle it's a.
It's on three weeks cycle.
So on Monday I began the thirdcycle and then, three to four
weeks afterwards, she's orderinga scan.
Three to four weeks afterwards,she's ordering a scan.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Okay, that's perfect, joe, let's go for this.
But you can maybe start to tellher you're going for the PCR.
I will absolutely Look forwardto the scan and then we'll see.
She would start thinking abouteither more cycles of this chemo
(20:36):
if the scan is not perfect, ormore chemo.
I don't think I'm just.
Since the chemo is working sowell, I cannot see why you
should have to suffer the bigside effects of the radiation.
(20:57):
I'm very concerned about that.
I don't think you need it, Iagree.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I had a meeting with a radiation oncologist.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
There's more chemo options.
You're taking cisplatin,paclitaxel and 5-FU Cisplatin.
There's other options forsquamous cell head and neck
cancer.
There's other options for chemo.
(21:29):
For example, the classic drugis called methotrexate
Methotrexate.
Now there's more fancy versionsof it, but this is a classic
drug.
There's no question head andneck cancer is sensitive to it.
It's not an oral drug.
There are oral versions of 5-FU.
(21:53):
They're called pro drugs.
You take the pill and the bodyconverts it into 5-FU, but
that's later.
That's later when we'rethinking more about it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I have this port anyway.
So I mean, if I have to doanother cycle of infusions, it's
already built in.
It's not a I can handle it, Ofcourse.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
But you have to get her agreement for it Agreed and
you tell her I think you tellher I'm going for a pathological
complete response.
That's what I want and I thinkI can get it with chemo PCR.
She'll relate to that, joe.
She'll relate to it.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So I did have.
So I guess there's a couple ofquestions.
So I think that you know sheordered three cycles.
That must be some kind of astandard.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
It's a guideline.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah.
So the question would be ifthere are more cycles of the
same set of drugs, is it likelythat it will just be less
effective?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
It's a possibility.
It's a possibility that thecells can develop some
resistance.
So it's probably better afterthese cycles to change the drug
Got it, so I will mention themethotrexate you have options.
Head and neck cancer hasoptions.
So, anyway, you did such a goodjob to get her on your side and
(23:29):
she'll relate to that.
You want a PCR, yeah.
Yeah and you think you can getit through chemo and maybe, you
know, can we start a cycle ofsomething else.
Anyway, it's time to starttalking with her.
She'll probably say, oh, wehave to look at the scan, which
(23:51):
is okay.
But to get her starting tothink about what you want is
good, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
And last week I had a video meeting with a radiation
oncologist and I hadn't talkedto him since November, so
obviously I was in a verydifferent situation.
Once again, he saw me and was,you know, duly impressed, and
you know he works with themedical oncologist, so he knew
(24:25):
what the strategy was.
And of course his premise wasthat you know, the standard of
care today is radiation and chemand and typically there's
surgery involved.
And I said well, I said youknow, you're the one who told me
surgery might not be a goodidea.
I told him I says the surgeonsaid we got to operate and then
(24:48):
you said maybe that's not a goodidea because it's going to
disfigure me and leave a bighole Very bad disfigurement
possibly.
And I and I and I agreed withyou and then, and then you know
we we were going after theradiation and then, because of
the inability to get the dentalclearance, we came up with this
idea and we went after it andlook what's happening, it's
(25:10):
working, and, and you know, heagreed and, and.
But then he comes back and hesays well, listen, our standard
of care shows that if you don'tget the radiation, there's a
very high probability that it'sgoing to come back.
But he also acknowledged hegoes, but we don't have a model
(25:31):
of yours, because the modelsthat we have are generally
surgery and then the radiationand chemo, not just chemo by
itself.
So he said I don't really havea model to work with that is
yours.
And I says okay, I said listen,can we agree that first of all,
(25:55):
my goal is the most amount ofgood, which is to be cancer free
with the least amount of harm?
That's all I'm trying to do issave my body and get rid of this
cancer.
Can you sign on to that?
Are you part of that thinking?
And he says yeah, I agree withthat.
I says perfect, so we can worktogether.
(26:15):
And I said I said you know, canyou understand that this
treatment that I'm taking that'sworking so well, is one that I
brought to you.
I said I'm not, you know,claiming anything.
I'm just saying that you know Ibrought this to you, you agreed
to it, or you got the teamagreed to it and look at how
well it's working.
(26:35):
And I said there's a chance, inmy opinion, that we can go all
the way with this.
And I said, for now, the planis we're going to run the third
cycle, wait three weeks and takea scan and see where we're at.
I says can you follow alongwith that?
And at least you know, saylet's just wait?
I said look, if it comes downto, I don't have another option.
(26:57):
I'm not saying I won't do this,I'm just saying I'm trying to
avoid it if I can.
And he, he got on the right page, he agreed to to to sit and
wait.
He says, listen, my trainingsays that it's not going to be
your best choice, but it's yourchoice.
And I says well, I don't wantto be adversarial to you, I want
(27:19):
to consider us on the team andI want the best option and
that's it.
So we came to an understandingand I believe that, even though
I know it's his training and hisopinion that I need this
radiation, I am of the opinionthat I don't and that we're
going to find our way through itwithout it.
And I think that this is goingto be the next move.
(27:40):
Tomorrow, I'm going to mentionthe PCR.
I'm going to look at you know,a different way forward if we
don't hit that mark, because,you know, the truth is, this
thing probably took 20 years tomake.
Am I going to undo it in sevenweeks?
Probably not, but we're gettingclose.
We're certainly.
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
You can't deny these results and we we have as a
model uh chihiro.
Yes, did the same thing.
She did neoadjuvant chemo yesand with the idea that would
make the surgery less invasive.
And then at the end of herneoadjuvant with her it was
(28:25):
three months of one regimen andthree months of another regimen,
longer than yours.
But in the end there was by PETscans, including a methionine
PET, no tumor and the surgeonsaid, oh, we'll operate now.
And she said there's nothingthere, why are we going?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
to operate.
What are you going to operateon?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
And that was the end of that.
I love it.
So it's very hard for theradiation oncologist to say I'm
not going to, I'm trained to dothe radiation, that's what I do.
Yeah, this man is a thoughtfulman, is a good man.
Yeah, and he admitted hedoesn't have a model like yours
where he didn't do the surgery,you just did the neoadjuvant
(29:12):
chemo and the thing is goingaway.
So this is out of hisexperience, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
And that's exactly what he said.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
It's probably out of the medical oncologist's
experience too.
It's out of their experience,yes, just as Tihiro's was as
well.
So, okay, we've got to dealwith it.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
We're in a new realm here of that where it didn't
happen before, exactly, I'm gladto be the first one to them,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And you and I know that it's almost surely the fact
that you're on methioninerestriction oh, absolutely
Methioninase that we've got thisgreatly improved result.
We can't prove that, but itsure seems so, and it's out of
the radiation oncologistexperience.
It's out of the medicaloncologist experience.
(30:06):
Okay, so we just keep going.
We're in a, you know, we're ina new realm here of the unknown
um, and we're learning as we goalong that maybe, uh, there's a
new, a new way let's call it amodified way to get a result.
(30:28):
So you can start letting herknow we're going for the PCR.
Yep, we'll do the scan, butplease start thinking about
either another, some cycles ofdifferent chemo, just to make
sure.
(30:50):
And beyond that, the long-termmaintenance chemo.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Is there another drug besides the methotrexate that I
should bring to her attentionthere?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
probably is, joe, and I'm going to ask you to do some
homework.
Okay, please, next couple ofdays, look up the chemotherapy
experience for squamous cellhead and neck cancer.
I'm sure there are other drugs.
Especially now there's such abig choice of different drugs,
I'm sure there's more potentialdrugs for head and neck cancer.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I'll dig.
Yeah, no worries, I will findthem, you know I will.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, so that's good.
Yeah, so tell me the magic wordPCR.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay, I got it.
I got it.
Tomorrow at 11 o'clock I'll beon the phone with her video
conference, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
So she may not think you know what PCR is.
She may think you're talkingabout.
You say pathological, completeresponse PCR.
That's what I'm going forAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Oh, you know I will.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
But even that, joe, is not perfect, right.
There could be cancer cellsthat are even by pathology under
the microscope.
They're so sneaky they may notshow up in that particular
biopsy.
That's why I think long,long-term maintenance chemo is
(32:15):
really important to prevent thiscancer from coming back, any
cancer from coming back.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
I'm going to be doing .
They just did.
They have a blood test thatdetects the virus load of the
virus that's caused by cancer,the virus load and also the
circulating cancer DNA.
Yeah, she wouldn't order that,but I'm ordering that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Negative now, now negative.
Yeah, that's for me, I think,when you have more of a tumor,
much more than you have, right,you could say I'd sure like to
have this test.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, and also that test that you sent me last week.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You would order it for me?
Yeah, and also that test thatyou sent me last week.
You would order it for me?
Yeah, maybe along with the scanat that time.
Along with the scan.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Right, yeah, she's already ordering the scan, so I
should have that.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
So you want the circulating cancer cells.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
She wouldn't order the circulating tumor CT DNA.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah, circulating tumor DNA, ct DNA.
She would't order the CT DNA.
Circulating tumor DNA CT.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
DNA.
She would not order that one.
I asked her already.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Say I will.
I want it along with the scan.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I want it, I have no problem.
I'm not sure you know that.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
All right, robert.
Well, I think at the same timeas the scan Joe.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
All right, that's.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I'm good with, that Plus that last week we have some
homework to do over the nextcouple of days.
Oh I'll find it To see what isthe published experience of
different drugs for head andneck cancer?
Of course we want to look atthe more recent data, more
recent publications.
(34:06):
I am sure there's more optionsthan just methotrexate.
I think the fancy new kind ofmethotrexate is called something
like Methotrexate is calledsomething like Permatrexid.
Okay, I'll find it.
It's a version of Methotrexate.
All right, I'll find it andI'll tell you what I found.
You'll find it.
You'll find it.
You know I will.
(34:27):
We need to do our homework inadvance of talking to her.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I'll be doing that tonight.
I'll have answers tonight.
Okay, okay, joe, all right,robert, well, always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And you're a great example.
I hope millions of people cansee your example.
Not only is it an inspiration,but it's a roadmap.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yes, agreed, that's.
What I'm offering is a roadmap.
I have a lady that's going tobe calling me today and we've
been talking back and forth andshe's listened to the podcast
and I'm going to be counselingher.
Her son-in-law has aggressivecancer and she's finally willing
to listen to me, so I'm goingto walk her through it.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I'm going to invite her to Sundayay's meeting and
they're starting to come to meokay.
Well, we can say right inadvance that the son-in-law
probably we can't promiseanything, but probably will
benefit from methioninerestriction and chemo.
The chemo didn't work, yeah,but now we're going to try it
with methionine restriction.
It's a different ballgame,entirely, entirely.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
It's a complete different animal and I can
attest to it 100%.
Well you're the great example.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
People say it doesn't work.
Well, you say, look at me pal.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Well, and you have to do it.
You see, that's the thing youhave to do it, and that's what I
know.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
And before you have to, do it, you have to believe
in it.
Yes, indeed, 100%.
To go through all this, whatyou're going through, you have
to have an intellectualcommitment to it.
It means you've done homeworkand you've read enough material
that's convincing to you.
(36:20):
So this is very important.
The people who are skeptical,they do it and there's nothing
we can do.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Exactly.
No, I agree, I agree.
Well, that's the first thing.
And you know again, that wasthe gift of this thing being on
the outside.
Nobody can deny it when I showthem the picture of what it was
like the outside.
Nobody can deny it when I showthem the picture of what it was.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
It's so spectacular yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
And so for me to be able to say this was me six
weeks ago and this is me today,they have to say, well, what did
you do?
And I have to say, yeah, sothere, we are all right, robert.
Well, I appreciate you beinghere once again.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I appreciate all the work For you having me Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
And we'll talk to you Sunday.
Great inspiration, excellent.
You have a great trip and I'lltalk to you Sunday, you bet.
Thank you, joe.
It's been another edition ofthe Healthy Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine.
We'll see you next time.
We'll see you next time.
Hello and welcome back to the Healthy Living
Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today we have a very special
guest, dr Robert Hoffman.
And Robert, welcome back to theshow.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thank you, Joe.
Always a pleasure to be on yourshow and so you're
international again.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Tell us what's going on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Okay, tell us what's going on.
Okay, well, the main purpose ofmy trip was to conduct some
procedures, some paperprocedures.
We have a subsidiary company, asubsidiary cancer company in
(00:53):
Korea, called Metabio, so thatwas my purpose for this trip.
I had to show up in person forit, and it's a nice company.
They're doing a lot of goodthings for the cancer patient,
and so that was my purpose forthe trip.
Of course, I'd rather be backin the laboratory, where I
(01:15):
belong, but it's okay, yourmission is very strong and
you're getting a lot of positivework done.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Sometimes it means you got to do administrative
things, and other times you geta play in the lab right.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's right.
That's right, Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I totally understand.
I do the same thing.
I love to formulate andexperiment, but most of the time
you just got to get out thereand work.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So I have a lot of update to share with you, and I
think a lot of this has to dowith I've really taken on the
mantle of this paradigm.
I have come to an understandingand an awareness of the
importance of this diet andunderstanding some things about
(02:09):
cancer that just people don'tseem to understand.
And wherever I go, I hear thesame stories.
You know, you got to cut thesugar out, you got to cut the
carbs out and meanwhile they'reeating all this meat and protein
.
And I cringe now when I hearthese things because I just know
that's what I was doing whenthis tumor was growing so
(02:30):
rapidly and no matter what I did, it wasn't stopping.
And I know that this experiencethat I've gone through has been
life changing.
Obviously it's given me a voiceand a tool that can get
people's attention in a way thatmaybe not everybody can.
(02:54):
And today I was able to speak atthe Rotary Club on behalf of my
nonprofit, where we do thegarden therapy and things like
that, and we're looking to getsome support from them.
But I was able to tell them mystory and you know this has only
been a five week, less than sixweeks, since I was at death's
(03:16):
door.
I mean, I was really in adifficult place and I was
struggling, you know, in everyway possible and we were
literally scrambling, trying tocome up with answers and get
them implemented.
And in the last six weeksthere's been this, you know,
complete miracle that's happened, and I only say miracle because
(03:38):
it's miraculous, not that itwas necessarily this
supernatural thing.
It was a really good, solidplan that we executed and did a
lot of hard work to cause thismiracle to happen.
But I was able to tell thestory to these people and I was
told at the end of thispresentation by the Rotary Club
(04:00):
that this was the mostinspirational story that they've
heard from any of their gueststhey've ever had, and I thought
that is so fantastic.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, that is really fantastic.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yes, and this is the Rotary Club.
They have guests every week ontheir thing and they're an
international organization.
And I just thought to myselfthat is powerful, because after
this little presentation, everysingle one of them came up to me
and shook my hand and asked mequestions and I thought to
myself this is a gift I have theability to share some truths
(04:34):
that I've learned and help somepeople save their lives and
hopefully reach out, andhopefully this message will
reach the medical community andpractitioners and doctors at one
point will listen.
And I want to share the storywith you.
Since we last spoke, it's beena couple of weeks, but this
(05:00):
tumor has continued to shrink.
I've continued to gain tumorhas continued to shrink.
I've continued to gain strengthand I'm even putting some
weight on and still maintainingthe diet very strictly.
I'm just taking on some more.
You know things like potatoesand these glass noodles and
things like that that have alittle calories, but hitting it
(05:21):
with the enzyme, doubling up mymethionine A's and just making
sure that I don't give itanything to eat.
But I was thinking and you knowI'm always trying to learn more
and trying to understand.
You know this.
Like you say, doctors don'tknow cancer.
They don't know it and you knowthey try to affect it and
change it.
But the truth is there's moreunknown than there is known
(05:45):
about this condition they callcancer and it's unique to every
individual that has it.
But there are certain thingsthat are a threat of consistency
.
There are truths that affect it, like the methionine addiction
and that sort of thing.
So in this diet I go counter toeverything I believed was right
(06:07):
and I eat a lot of fruit, andfruit is a big part of my diet
right now, and you know where Iwas coming from with the keto
and the sugar removal and all ofthis fruit was like kryptonite
right, it's got a fructose, adouble sugar.
It's hard for your body, itfeeds the cancer.
Everything about it was wrongand so I wasn't eating any of it
(06:30):
.
I was eating a lot ofvegetables and a lot of protein.
That was primarily my diet.
And so, since sitting with thegroup the four o'clock Sunday
group for about three months now, almost four months listening
to all the people and theirexperiences and many of them
have been battling and dealingand managing their cancer for
(06:52):
many years with this diet andthis, these practices you got to
listen to them right.
You know if the what they'redoing is working.
You, you, you got to take noteof that, which I certainly have,
and Dr Exime and all of hisstrategies, and you know your
ideas and all this, and it cameto me.
So, with this chemotherapy thatwe came up with, it's three
(07:16):
drugs.
They're potent drugs, not alight dose.
I'm having a very meaningfuldose and it hits me hard, I know
it.
But the way chemotherapy works,the way I understand it, is it
gets into your bloodstream andattaches to the glucose
molecules and it floats aroundin your, in your bloodstream,
and the, the cells that are themost active are the ones that
(07:39):
are taking it in the most rightand okay, well, the chemo
doesn't attach to glucose, okay,um, it gets into the cell by it
, gets into all the cells, um,by themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
That's one symptom of getting into all the cells is,
you lost your hair, sure, and ithad a big effect on the hair,
because the hair cells, thecells that produce the hair,
hair is not alive anymore, butit's from cells that were formed
by living cells, and thosecells are the most rapidly
(08:20):
dividing in the body, more thanalmost any cancer.
So they're very susceptible tochemotherapy.
This type of chemotherapyyou're getting, we call it
cytotoxic chemotherapy, celltoxic, okay.
So, and the cancer cell?
(08:41):
Actually, there's not enough ofthem dividing at any one time,
very often, to get the desiredeffect of killing a lot of them.
If the cancer cell is notdividing, or any cell that's not
dividing, is resistant to thekind of chemo you're getting,
(09:04):
resistant, it doesn't affect anon-dividing cell.
So the methionine restriction,diet and methioninase, what it
does?
It selectively arrests thecancer cells when they're trying
to divide.
So this is the key.
So there's more and more cellsthat are then targets for your
(09:29):
chemo because of the methioninerestriction.
That's the principle, got it?
It's really simple.
The methionine restriction hasan effect on the cancer cells
and not the normal cells, thatit arrests them when they're
trying to divide.
They need more methionine tocontinue their division.
(09:52):
They don't have it and by beingstuck or arrested in this
attempt to divide when they'retrying to replicate, their DNA
makes them more susceptible tothe chemo than they would have
been if you weren't onmethionine restriction.
So that's a point.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Got it.
So do you think that thesubstantial addition of fruit,
which has a lot of sugar in it,in addition to all the fiber and
the things I know it getsreleased at a metered rate, but
still I eat a lot of fruit.
Do you think that the cancercells are going to feed off of
(10:32):
that?
Even if they can't divide,they're still taking in this
energy.
And do you think that thataffects in any way the chemo's
ability to get in there and findit?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
No, oh, okay, I think it affects the ability of the
chemo to enter the cancer cells.
Got it?
All cells need sugar, all cellsneed sugar, all cells need
glucose.
(11:08):
This is their fuel, theirenergy source.
They need it.
But in order to kill cancer, youneed to find something that the
cancer cell needs much morethan the normal cells.
It's not glucose, it'smethionine, right, right.
(11:32):
How do we know that?
Well, we know it, for example,from your, your great reaction,
your great response.
That tells us just volumes,absolutely.
We also know it by PET imaging.
So PET imaging can use aradioactive form of glucose or a
(11:59):
radioactive form of methionineand when you compare them head
to head and not all, but most,maybe the vast majority you get
a better signal from theradioactive methionine PET.
Why?
Because the difference in theuptake of the radioactive
(12:23):
methionine, the requirement inthe cancer cells, is much more
than the surrounding tissue.
So you get a big signal.
Regarding glucose, you get somesignal.
The cancer cells seem to need alittle bit more glucose than
the surrounding tissue, but thesignal is often weak.
So the addiction to methionineis much greater in the cancer
(12:49):
cells than the addiction toglucose.
So that's what we want totarget.
You target glucose.
You're going to die, you gointo this complete starvation.
Glucose is just not targetable.
The brain needs more glucosethan any cancer Agreed.
(13:12):
So glucose is just not a target.
And yeah, anything you eat willfeed the cancer.
But if the cancer is notgetting enough methionine, then
that overcomes everything.
(13:32):
The cancer then gets into bigtrouble, stops dividing and it
becomes the target for thechemotherapy.
If the cancer were like a petridish in the laboratory, we
wouldn't need chemo.
We could starve the cancer ofmethionine sufficiently.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
We don't need the chemo.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
But the body is more complex.
We can't not.
We can't really starve thecancer for methionine like we
did we would in a petri dish.
So we need chemo to help us outand you're the great example of
this oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
You know I'm going to tell you a little trick that
I've done and I know you'reprobably not going to like it,
but I believe it's working.
And I only do it generally theday or two after I get the
infusion.
So I've got two of the chemodrugs in me and the third one is
pumping in me for five days.
So my bloodstream is full ofthis stuff and generally I'll
(14:35):
fast for the first dayafterwards.
So I fast for two days before,one day after, and then when I
break my fast, usually within 24hours of breaking the fast I
will eat one egg and I'll let itin my system for about an hour
and then I'll take.
(14:55):
What do you do?
For an hour I eat one egg andfor about an hour I leave it in
my system and I let my bodyabsorb that for an hour, and so
I know the cancer is going to go.
Ha ha, I got some methionine.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Not that much.
One egg is not that much.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
No, but it's a lot more than it's getting normally,
and that's true Something.
And then, after that hour, Ihit myself with methionine A's
and then, about three hourslater, I hit it again.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And there you go.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I think that's a very , very interesting and good
strategy, yeah, so I think whatit does and again, it's just my,
I'm experimenting on myself andclearly the results are well,
are not causing me harm.
But I think what it does, evenbriefly, is it flares it up,
causes it to get active, becomesa bigger target, and then I
(15:45):
shut it back off again.
Well, one time.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You know, whatever you're doing, joe, it's working
so and it's working fantasticyeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
So that's my little secret.
Uh, chess move that.
I play one one time.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I think it's good yeah, the thing next, joe is um,
I, uh, um, worried a little bit, uh, uh, you're going to see
the chemo doctor on on mondaytomorrow I I do a video
conference with the chemo doctorand then monday I get my last
(16:24):
infusion okay.
So I think you what this?
I think you tell her that yourtarget is a pathological
complete response.
(16:45):
Pathological complete response.
They abbreviate that.
They love abbreviations andacronyms, so you abbreviate that
(17:05):
with a lowercase p, uppercase c, uppercase r PCR pathologic,
complete response.
This is your goal and you thinkyou can get it with the chemo.
Of course they're going to haveto take a biopsy, uh, but
(17:25):
that's, that's okay.
Yeah, um, so you tell herthat's my goal.
I want a pcr okay um p.
Pcr has another meaning inmolecular biology polymerase
chain reaction, but this ispathological.
Complete response.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
That means, you take the biopsy.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
The pathologist looks at it under the microscope
after a couple procedures andcannot see any more cancer cells
.
Okay, that's a pathological,complete response.
Okay, so you tell her that'swhat I'm going for and then
maybe discuss with her uh, morechemo after after monday yeah,
(18:12):
yeah, because that was really mything you want to get a PCR
Right, then I don't know, maybethat's enough to talk about now.
Later on we're going to talkabout taking some kind of chemo
over long periods, perhaps alifetime, like Chihiro is doing.
(18:37):
We call maintenance chemo Right.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
That would likely be an oral situation.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
It has to be something oral, otherwise it's
too inconvenient.
But I think you tell her youwant a pathological complete
response.
You're going for that with thechemo PCR and maybe ask her
maybe you can get more cycles ofthe present chemo or change the
(19:05):
chemo.
But I don't think, joe, I don'tthink, I don't think that you
can get a PCR from just thesethree cycles.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I think you're probably right.
I know that this thing took alot of time.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
They can do a biopsy on you in a couple of weeks,
which is okay.
It's okay, they can see, but Ithink you need more.
And she even mentioned thatit's possible that this chemo
will go all the way.
Right, she did, she did, andpossibly instead of maybe before
(19:46):
the biopsy to get something avery, very high resolution scan
like a PET scan, high resolutionscan like a PET scan.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Well, what?
What she has already suggestedand I think she's putting the
order in is this cycle it's a.
It's on three weeks cycle.
So on Monday I began the thirdcycle and then, three to four
weeks afterwards, she's orderinga scan.
Three to four weeks afterwards,she's ordering a scan.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Okay, that's perfect, joe, let's go for this.
But you can maybe start to tellher you're going for the PCR.
I will absolutely Look forwardto the scan and then we'll see.
She would start thinking abouteither more cycles of this chemo
(20:36):
if the scan is not perfect, ormore chemo.
I don't think I'm just.
Since the chemo is working sowell, I cannot see why you
should have to suffer the bigside effects of the radiation.
(20:57):
I'm very concerned about that.
I don't think you need it, Iagree.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
I had a meeting with a radiation oncologist.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
There's more chemo options.
You're taking cisplatin,paclitaxel and 5-FU Cisplatin.
There's other options forsquamous cell head and neck
cancer.
There's other options for chemo.
(21:29):
For example, the classic drugis called methotrexate
Methotrexate.
Now there's more fancy versionsof it, but this is a classic
drug.
There's no question head andneck cancer is sensitive to it.
It's not an oral drug.
There are oral versions of 5-FU.
(21:53):
They're called pro drugs.
You take the pill and the bodyconverts it into 5-FU, but
that's later.
That's later when we'rethinking more about it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I have this port anyway.
So I mean, if I have to doanother cycle of infusions, it's
already built in.
It's not a I can handle it, Ofcourse.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
But you have to get her agreement for it Agreed and
you tell her I think you tellher I'm going for a pathological
complete response.
That's what I want and I thinkI can get it with chemo PCR.
She'll relate to that, joe.
She'll relate to it.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So I did have.
So I guess there's a couple ofquestions.
So I think that you know sheordered three cycles.
That must be some kind of astandard.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
It's a guideline.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah.
So the question would be ifthere are more cycles of the
same set of drugs, is it likelythat it will just be less
effective?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
It's a possibility.
It's a possibility that thecells can develop some
resistance.
So it's probably better afterthese cycles to change the drug
Got it, so I will mention themethotrexate you have options.
Head and neck cancer hasoptions.
So, anyway, you did such a goodjob to get her on your side and
(23:29):
she'll relate to that.
You want a PCR, yeah.
Yeah and you think you can getit through chemo and maybe, you
know, can we start a cycle ofsomething else.
Anyway, it's time to starttalking with her.
She'll probably say, oh, wehave to look at the scan, which
(23:51):
is okay.
But to get her starting tothink about what you want is
good, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
And last week I had a video meeting with a radiation
oncologist and I hadn't talkedto him since November, so
obviously I was in a verydifferent situation.
Once again, he saw me and was,you know, duly impressed, and
you know he works with themedical oncologist, so he knew
(24:25):
what the strategy was.
And of course his premise wasthat you know, the standard of
care today is radiation and chemand and typically there's
surgery involved.
And I said well, I said youknow, you're the one who told me
surgery might not be a goodidea.
I told him I says the surgeonsaid we got to operate and then
(24:48):
you said maybe that's not a goodidea because it's going to
disfigure me and leave a bighole Very bad disfigurement
possibly.
And I and I and I agreed withyou and then, and then you know
we we were going after theradiation and then, because of
the inability to get the dentalclearance, we came up with this
idea and we went after it andlook what's happening, it's
(25:10):
working, and, and you know, heagreed and, and.
But then he comes back and hesays well, listen, our standard
of care shows that if you don'tget the radiation, there's a
very high probability that it'sgoing to come back.
But he also acknowledged hegoes, but we don't have a model
(25:31):
of yours, because the modelsthat we have are generally
surgery and then the radiationand chemo, not just chemo by
itself.
So he said I don't really havea model to work with that is
yours.
And I says okay, I said listen,can we agree that first of all,
(25:55):
my goal is the most amount ofgood, which is to be cancer free
with the least amount of harm?
That's all I'm trying to do issave my body and get rid of this
cancer.
Can you sign on to that?
Are you part of that thinking?
And he says yeah, I agree withthat.
I says perfect, so we can worktogether.
(26:15):
And I said I said you know, canyou understand that this
treatment that I'm taking that'sworking so well, is one that I
brought to you.
I said I'm not, you know,claiming anything.
I'm just saying that you know Ibrought this to you, you agreed
to it, or you got the teamagreed to it and look at how
well it's working.
(26:35):
And I said there's a chance, inmy opinion, that we can go all
the way with this.
And I said, for now, the planis we're going to run the third
cycle, wait three weeks and takea scan and see where we're at.
I says can you follow alongwith that?
And at least you know, saylet's just wait?
I said look, if it comes downto, I don't have another option.
(26:57):
I'm not saying I won't do this,I'm just saying I'm trying to
avoid it if I can.
And he, he got on the right page, he agreed to to to sit and
wait.
He says, listen, my trainingsays that it's not going to be
your best choice, but it's yourchoice.
And I says well, I don't wantto be adversarial to you, I want
(27:19):
to consider us on the team andI want the best option and
that's it.
So we came to an understandingand I believe that, even though
I know it's his training and hisopinion that I need this
radiation, I am of the opinionthat I don't and that we're
going to find our way through itwithout it.
And I think that this is goingto be the next move.
(27:40):
Tomorrow, I'm going to mentionthe PCR.
I'm going to look at you know,a different way forward if we
don't hit that mark, because,you know, the truth is, this
thing probably took 20 years tomake.
Am I going to undo it in sevenweeks?
Probably not, but we're gettingclose.
We're certainly.
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
You can't deny these results and we we have as a
model uh chihiro.
Yes, did the same thing.
She did neoadjuvant chemo yesand with the idea that would
make the surgery less invasive.
And then at the end of herneoadjuvant with her it was
(28:25):
three months of one regimen andthree months of another regimen,
longer than yours.
But in the end there was by PETscans, including a methionine
PET, no tumor and the surgeonsaid, oh, we'll operate now.
And she said there's nothingthere, why are we going?
Speaker 1 (28:47):
to operate.
What are you going to operateon?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
And that was the end of that.
I love it.
So it's very hard for theradiation oncologist to say I'm
not going to, I'm trained to dothe radiation, that's what I do.
Yeah, this man is a thoughtfulman, is a good man.
Yeah, and he admitted hedoesn't have a model like yours
where he didn't do the surgery,you just did the neoadjuvant
(29:12):
chemo and the thing is goingaway.
So this is out of hisexperience, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
And that's exactly what he said.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
It's probably out of the medical oncologist's
experience too.
It's out of their experience,yes, just as Tihiro's was as
well.
So, okay, we've got to dealwith it.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
We're in a new realm here of that where it didn't
happen before, exactly, I'm gladto be the first one to them,
that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
And you and I know that it's almost surely the fact
that you're on methioninerestriction oh, absolutely
Methioninase that we've got thisgreatly improved result.
We can't prove that, but itsure seems so, and it's out of
the radiation oncologistexperience.
It's out of the medicaloncologist experience.
(30:06):
Okay, so we just keep going.
We're in a, you know, we're ina new realm here of the unknown
um, and we're learning as we goalong that maybe, uh, there's a
new, a new way let's call it amodified way to get a result.
(30:28):
So you can start letting herknow we're going for the PCR.
Yep, we'll do the scan, butplease start thinking about
either another, some cycles ofdifferent chemo, just to make
sure.
(30:50):
And beyond that, the long-termmaintenance chemo.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Is there another drug besides the methotrexate that I
should bring to her attentionthere?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
probably is, joe, and I'm going to ask you to do some
homework.
Okay, please, next couple ofdays, look up the chemotherapy
experience for squamous cellhead and neck cancer.
I'm sure there are other drugs.
Especially now there's such abig choice of different drugs,
I'm sure there's more potentialdrugs for head and neck cancer.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I'll dig.
Yeah, no worries, I will findthem, you know I will.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, so that's good.
Yeah, so tell me the magic wordPCR.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay, I got it.
I got it.
Tomorrow at 11 o'clock I'll beon the phone with her video
conference, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
So she may not think you know what PCR is.
She may think you're talkingabout.
You say pathological, completeresponse PCR.
That's what I'm going forAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Oh, you know I will.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
But even that, joe, is not perfect, right.
There could be cancer cellsthat are even by pathology under
the microscope.
They're so sneaky they may notshow up in that particular
biopsy.
That's why I think long,long-term maintenance chemo is
(32:15):
really important to prevent thiscancer from coming back, any
cancer from coming back.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
I'm going to be doing .
They just did.
They have a blood test thatdetects the virus load of the
virus that's caused by cancer,the virus load and also the
circulating cancer DNA.
Yeah, she wouldn't order that,but I'm ordering that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Negative now, now negative.
Yeah, that's for me, I think,when you have more of a tumor,
much more than you have, right,you could say I'd sure like to
have this test.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, and also that test that you sent me last week.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You would order it for me?
Yeah, and also that test thatyou sent me last week.
You would order it for me?
Yeah, maybe along with the scanat that time.
Along with the scan.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Right, yeah, she's already ordering the scan, so I
should have that.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
So you want the circulating cancer cells.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
She wouldn't order the circulating tumor CT DNA.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah, circulating tumor DNA, ct DNA.
She would't order the CT DNA.
Circulating tumor DNA CT.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
DNA.
She would not order that one.
I asked her already.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Say I will.
I want it along with the scan.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I want it, I have no problem.
I'm not sure you know that.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
All right, robert.
Well, I think at the same timeas the scan Joe.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
All right, that's.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
I'm good with, that Plus that last week we have some
homework to do over the nextcouple of days.
Oh I'll find it To see what isthe published experience of
different drugs for head andneck cancer?
Of course we want to look atthe more recent data, more
recent publications.
(34:06):
I am sure there's more optionsthan just methotrexate.
I think the fancy new kind ofmethotrexate is called something
like Methotrexate is calledsomething like Permatrexid.
Okay, I'll find it.
It's a version of Methotrexate.
All right, I'll find it andI'll tell you what I found.
You'll find it.
You'll find it.
You know I will.
(34:27):
We need to do our homework inadvance of talking to her.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I'll be doing that tonight.
I'll have answers tonight.
Okay, okay, joe, all right,robert, well, always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And you're a great example.
I hope millions of people cansee your example.
Not only is it an inspiration,but it's a roadmap.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yes, agreed, that's.
What I'm offering is a roadmap.
I have a lady that's going tobe calling me today and we've
been talking back and forth andshe's listened to the podcast
and I'm going to be counselingher.
Her son-in-law has aggressivecancer and she's finally willing
to listen to me, so I'm goingto walk her through it.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I'm going to invite her to Sundayay's meeting and
they're starting to come to meokay.
Well, we can say right inadvance that the son-in-law
probably we can't promiseanything, but probably will
benefit from methioninerestriction and chemo.
The chemo didn't work, yeah,but now we're going to try it
with methionine restriction.
It's a different ballgame,entirely, entirely.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
It's a complete different animal and I can
attest to it 100%.
Well you're the great example.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
People say it doesn't work.
Well, you say, look at me pal.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Well, and you have to do it.
You see, that's the thing youhave to do it, and that's what I
know.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
And before you have to, do it, you have to believe
in it.
Yes, indeed, 100%.
To go through all this, whatyou're going through, you have
to have an intellectualcommitment to it.
It means you've done homeworkand you've read enough material
that's convincing to you.
(36:20):
So this is very important.
The people who are skeptical,they do it and there's nothing
we can do.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Exactly.
No, I agree, I agree.
Well, that's the first thing.
And you know again, that wasthe gift of this thing being on
the outside.
Nobody can deny it when I showthem the picture of what it was
like the outside.
Nobody can deny it when I showthem the picture of what it was.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
It's so spectacular yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
And so for me to be able to say this was me six
weeks ago and this is me today,they have to say, well, what did
you do?
And I have to say, yeah, sothere, we are all right, robert.
Well, I appreciate you beinghere once again.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I appreciate all the work For you having me Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
And we'll talk to you Sunday.
Great inspiration, excellent.
You have a great trip and I'lltalk to you Sunday, you bet.
Thank you, joe.
It's been another edition ofthe Healthy Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine.
We'll see you next time.
We'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.