Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Well, hello, and
welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andit's been a while since I've
been able to do uh a soloepisode.
We've had so many great guestscoming on.
Um really haven't even had aspace to do it, but with the
holidays coming up, we got alittle bit of a break.
(00:35):
And uh, as much as we lovescheduling our guests, and of
course, if you're interested inbeing a guest, reach out.
Um, we do uh we're we'rescheduled out, I don't know,
almost six months aheadsometimes, but uh there's always
a space.
Um, but I do like to talk abouttopics myself, and uh Lord knows
(00:59):
uh I'm able to talk for a goodlong while when when needed.
Uh, for those of you who don'tknow, my name is Joe Grumbine.
Um, I'm a host of this podcast.
I'm also the CEO and formulatorfor Willow Creek Springs, where
we make natural skincareproducts and uh um natural
(01:23):
herbal remedies.
We also, I'm also the CEO andfounder of Gardens of Hope
501c3.
We've got a two and a half acrebotanical garden out in Paris,
California, and we offertherapeutic horticulture and
education and uh retreats andall sorts of good things.
(01:44):
Um, so if you're interested inany of those, please reach out.
I'm easily found um grumby andjoe at gmail.com or my phone
number is 951-436-6312.
Um today I want to talk abouthabits.
We've talked a little bit abouthabits already, and I want to
(02:07):
talk about breaking habits.
So as it happens, it seems thatmost of the habits, and
certainly not all, but many ofthe habits I should say that we
have are destructive or harmfulor negative in some way, or slow
(02:27):
us down or hold us back, orworse.
Um addictions are habits, uh,bad relationships are habits, um
you know, laziness is a habit,uh, bad eating habits.
I mean, there are so many habitsthat we find ourselves in, even
(02:48):
triggers can be habits.
Um just the way that we are.
Look at yourself and look atanything that you don't like
about yourself.
And I'd be willing to bet thatsomewhere in that situation is a
habit.
And so today I want to talk alittle bit about how do we break
(03:12):
habits.
Um, obviously, I'm talking aboutgetting rid of negative things.
Um, these are mindful choicesthat we're making.
And I've got a lot of littlethings that I've gathered that I
want to share about ways tohelp.
Um, remember, everybody'sunique.
(03:35):
This podcast isn't about metelling you how to do a thing.
This is a podcast that says,hey, here's something I
discovered.
Look into it.
Maybe try it out for yourself.
Um, do more research.
I think that knowledge is power.
And if you've listened to thispodcast before, you realize that
(03:56):
we come from a variety of pointsof view.
Uh, don't have, I'm not tryingto push an agenda, I'm trying to
shed light on truth.
And sometimes we find truthshere that I didn't expect.
Sometimes we roll out thingsthat I'm well aware of and and
(04:16):
um espouse greatly, and I justwant to share it.
In this case, um, I've done someresearch.
I am gonna share some of my ownpersonal experiences, and this
is really more of um a process.
So one of the things with habitsis identifying them.
(04:45):
I think that a lot of timeswe're in denial about a lot of
things.
We don't want to acknowledgethat we have an addiction, we
don't want to acknowledge thatwe have a bad relationship, we
don't want to acknowledge thatmaybe we're we have bad eating
habits or bad whatever our habitis that's that we're trying to
break.
(05:05):
Or we we would like to break ifwe're being super honest.
And I think that maybe that'sone of the biggest and most
important elements, you know.
I think with an addiction,especially, acknowledging that
you have a problem,acknowledging that you have a
habit that maybe isn't good uhwith the relationship,
(05:27):
especially as well.
Um, we put up with things, andthis isn't just a romantic
relationship or a spousalrelationship, these are business
relationships, these are, youknow, if you've listened to any
of these episodes, I've I'vegone on um almost ad nauseum
about some of the relationshipsthat I've severed and and
(05:51):
getting rid of things.
Um many of the things I'vegotten rid of were just
unplugging from relationshipsthat weren't serving me in any
way, that were causing me harm,or maybe I was making excuses
for.
So I think that one of thechallenges that we're going to
(06:14):
have is gonna be some moments ofbrutal honesty.
And I think that we need toidentify um not only the habits
that we have and acknowledgethem and recognize them and say,
hey, make a decision, make aconstant, a conscious decision,
(06:39):
maybe make an outward statement,maybe make it, maybe make an
assert an assertion or an um ohshoot, um brain fog, sorry
folks, still dealing with thechemo, red blood cell
diminishment, um uh affirmation,you know, that identifies that
(07:02):
hey, I am past this, or I'mworking on this, or I'm better
than this, or whatever it is,but but own it.
You know, a big part of thispodcast in finding health is
responsibility, owning yourshit.
(07:24):
You know, you're the only onethat got yourself in the mess
you're in.
Nobody did this to you, and soeverything about you that you
like and everything about youthat you don't like, you did
that.
And nobody did it to you or foryou.
And if you let somebody dosomething to you that you did
(07:44):
that, and maybe that's a habityou have of allowing things or
not stopping things, but with ahabit, you're gonna have
generally something that causesyou to engage in it, and
sometimes it's just notthinking.
I know when I was going throughuh my tobacco addiction that
(08:08):
lasted for 13 years, and when Irecognized that, hey man, I need
to stop this, it took me yearsof going at it from different
angles and and trying differentthings, and this is as a you
know, 20-something.
Um and and I started to look atit and and and get to know it
(08:33):
because I was struggling.
Every time I would beat it for alittle while, something would
happen, something would triggerit, and I would go back.
And then I realized that therewas an excuse for everything.
It could be I was happycelebrating something, or maybe
it was I was sad aboutsomething, or maybe I was upset
at something.
But whatever it was, if it wasoutside of the norm of just
(08:56):
humdrum daily living, I coulduse it as an excuse to go back
to this habit.
So triggers are important torecognize and reckon, own, to
say, hey, you know what?
Every time I start feeling thisway, I tend to do this thing, or
(09:19):
I allow this thing, or I don'tdo this thing, or whatever it
is.
Um, reflect on when and why youengage in the habit.
Identify uh these triggers, youknow, is it emotional, is it
stress, anxiety, is itenvironmental?
Like uh to for me, still uh oneof the places or things when I
(09:45):
used to dip tobacco after a mealuh would always be a this very
strong craving.
Or if I was fishing, and butwhether it was by myself or with
somebody, but walking down astream or sitting by a lake or
on a boat, just always wantcrave that dip.
(10:07):
And um, you know, certain timesof the day, whatever it is, but
take a minute and start thinkingabout these triggers, like when
what happens when I do thatthing.
And another tool that I found,which is good for just about
(10:29):
everything involving health.
In fact, anybody comes to me fora consultation about anything, I
will always assign you ajournaling assignment.
Um track yourself, own it.
We forget so many things,whether it's conveniently or or
(10:50):
naturally or whatever the reasonwe do, we forget a lot and we
don't own our shit.
And so write it down.
You know, if you got a uh a badeating habit, write down
everything you eat.
If you can't sleep, write downwhat are you doing before you
sleep?
How how long did you sleep?
(11:10):
How was your sleep?
If you got a an addiction habit,you track how much you did, when
you did it, what did you dobefore you did it, how did you
feel?
I mean, everything you can.
And and then go back and reflecton these things.
So I'd say that's that's areally big one.
(11:32):
Um understand the habit loop.
Generally, a habit involves youknow, a cycle of things, not
just a single event or activityor or substance or whatever.
There's gonna be some kind of aloop that happens, and whether
(11:53):
it's you know, you feel lousy,um, you get hungry, you eat the
meal, you feel bad about it, youpuke it up, or whatever it is
your habit is, it doesn'tmatter.
There's gonna be some kind of uhof a of a loop.
And here's sort of an example ofit of like a cue, which is like
(12:16):
the trigger, and then yourroutine.
Um that's the thing that you do,and then the reward.
What do you get from it?
You know, that was one of thethings I really did with my
tobacco.
I was like, why in the hell do Iwant this?
Like, what is it that I've gotfrom it?
And the best thing I could comeup with was it just satisfied a
(12:39):
need.
It didn't make me feel better,it didn't give me clarity, it
didn't sometimes it made me wantto throw up.
But all I could really come upwith was it just fed it fed a
hunger.
And um so th so I think thatbeing honest is critical here.
(13:06):
You know, if you're makingexcuses, hey, you're not gonna
get anywhere with this.
Go back to square one and maybemake that decision.
I think that's maybe the mostimportant thing in this whole
episode or or exercise is make adecision.
(13:27):
Decide this is what I want, thisis what I'm doing, this is what
I'm going to do.
And so then when you're lookingat these, you know, cycle, this
loop of Q, routine, reward,replace the routine.
You're gonna have that triggerhappen because you live your
(13:51):
life, you're gonna seek a rewardbecause you got you you have a
stimulus and you're gonna wantto have a response.
So change what you're whatyou're doing.
Just say, well, instead ofeating that candy bar, I'm going
(14:11):
to, I don't know, do 20 push-upsand then eat a piece of fruit or
whatever.
And try to find something thatcan give you a similar or a
better um fulfillment.
And there's so many ways to getthese fulfillments, you know,
(14:32):
exercise, um good healthy fruit,um, a good interactions can
(15:29):
replace those same chemicals inyour brain that the bad ones do.
So here's another one set cleargoals about what you want to do.
So many times, like we just go,oh, I'm gonna get better, I'm
gonna just stop this, or orwhatever.
(15:49):
But sometimes the gap betweenI'm an addict and I'm not an
addict is just huge.
So maybe it's start out with,well, I'm not gonna I'm gonna
pick the worst habit I have, andI'm gonna say, well, I'm not
gonna do it at that time.
So for me, after a meal, I've Ijust said, well, I'm not gonna
(16:14):
do it within 60 minutes of ameal, before or after.
Okay, well, that's somethingmaybe that's solvable.
Maybe that's something I canaccomplish without having to
make that gigantic leap ofquitting cold turkey or whatever
it is.
Um be clear about your goals andand make sense out of it.
(16:44):
Something that's measurable,something that you can say, you
know, like you say, well, I'mjust gonna do better.
And then somebody says, Well,how are you doing with that?
Oh, yeah, I'm doing better.
Well, how?
What is it that you can look atto say, well, I'm doing better
because um I'm now walking ahalf a mile a day instead of not
(17:05):
walking at all, or I'm eating,you know, two portions of
vegetables every day instead ofnone, or whatever, something
that you can you can quantify.
These are things that help us toget that feel-good um chemical,
(17:26):
that dopamine that says, hey, Idid something.
It also gives us a point that wecan lock into that says, okay,
I'm here now.
I was there, I'm here now.
And then you don't have to gobackwards and you can add to it.
Um breaking your goal intopieces is another way, too, that
(17:54):
people really can accomplishthings.
You know, so many times we saywe get disgusted with ourselves,
or we get upset, and we just go,fuck it, I'm not gonna do this
anymore.
And you just make this giganticleap of I want have this big
(18:14):
problem, and I'm just not gonnado it anymore.
And then little by little lifecreeps in, those triggers
happen, and you hold off withwillpower for a period of time,
and then at one point you have abreak, and then you start all
over again.
Sometimes breaking it up intopieces is a is a good way.
(18:38):
Um, it can it can make a lot ofsense.
Um, accountability, like I saidalready, is powerful.
Like you have to own your shit.
You're the only one that's gonnachange this.
Nobody can do this for you.
You know, some people they getlocked up, thrown in jail, and
you quit your habit because youcan't get the drugs or the
(19:00):
whatever the thing, the food orthe the bad habit that you had.
You can't get where you were, oryou go to some kind of a rehab,
or you go on a vacation orwhatever.
You you remove yourself from thething, the ability to get the
thing.
Well, that doesn't change thehabit, it just means you're not
(19:20):
engaging it at a given time.
So you gotta own it, establishthat accountability.
So sometimes um having somebodythat you share this with can be
important.
Uh sometimes just doing it onyour own is is enough, but if
you got somebody that you'reaccountable to, that you can
(19:43):
share your progress and thatthey can um they can establish
support and and reinforce thatand give you little tidbits of
guidance or or share theirexperience.
I think that can be veryhelpful.
(20:03):
And then, of course, there'sgroups, and it can be in person,
it can be online, it can be aum, it can be a zoom call, like
the cancer group that I'm partof, it's not about habits.
Well, it's about positivehabits, it's the opposite of
what we're talking about here,but still people sharing their
(20:24):
experience and saying, Well, Idid this and and this is what it
did for me.
It's immensely, immenselyhelpful.
So I'm not particularly big onAA or anything like that, but
that doesn't mean it doesn'twork for a lot of people.
Um, I think that groups can bevery powerful and finding a
(20:47):
community.
I mean, that's what this podcastis all about.
It's about community.
So I think that finding peoplethat either share the problem or
have shared it or understand it,or at very least support you can
be instrumental and certainlyhelpful in that.
(21:09):
Another piece of this is in uhin accountability is little
triggers to help you overcome.
So reminders, visual cues, uhtracking your progress.
Again, the journal is a powerfultool here.
(21:30):
Sometimes things like post-itnotes or little memos or text
yourself or send yourself anemail, or you know, you can
actually schedule something tobe sent at a certain time to
say, hey, good job.
You didn't do this thing, it'salready noon.
You know, you can do it.
You only got you're alreadyhalfway through the day.
(21:52):
Whatever it is, those are thingsthat can help you to be
accountable and to help you getthrough.
You know, time is really a bitchwhen you're first changing a
habit.
I can remember going throughquitting tobacco that I mean, it
was literally every few minutesI got a craving, and it was in
my little brain was, I want it.
(22:14):
And I had to say, No, I want it,no, I want it, no, I want it,
no, and it just kept happeningover and over and over again.
And over time, those urges gotless often, and then over more
time they got less loud, andthen eventually they started to
go away.
(22:34):
And now they're you know, 30years later, they're occasional
once in a great while, butthey're still not gone.
It's still something I have todeal with.
So little triggers, littlethings to help you, just as much
as little things that havecaused problems uh can be
(22:54):
helpful and track your progress.
Use that journal.
Own your accomplishments just asmuch as you own the problem.
So here's another tip, andthere's value to it because
(23:17):
really we live in a real worldand you know, alter your
environment, remove temptations.
Like if you're trying to quittobacco, why in the hell would
you have a can of tobaccositting right on your desk
staring at you?
I mean, yeah, if you want to upthe ante and and and test your
willpower, but chances are ifyou're an alcoholic and you got
(23:40):
a bottle of whiskey sitting onyour desk, and whiskey's your
drink of choice, eventuallyyou're just gonna have a moment.
You're gonna go, oh, screw it.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna have alittle shot here.
And, you know, get rid of it.
Make it more difficult to haveto go back to that habit, make
(24:00):
it to be more of an effort,because the more of an effort it
is, the more time it's gonnatake, the more time you have to
get back to your senses.
And, you know, go, what in thehell was I thinking?
I don't want that.
And sometimes those moments canbe critical.
There were a few times where Icame close to breaking when I
(24:22):
finally made my commitment andmy my promise to God that I
wasn't gonna do it anymore.
There were still a few timesthat I came close.
And if it wasn't for that littlebit of time that I had before,
if I was going to do it, I wouldhave to go and get it.
And I'd have all that time tothink about it, and I would
(24:44):
generally stop myself before itcame.
Remember, a craving, what Idiscovered, it's kind of like
any emotion.
It doesn't last that long if youdon't feed it.
So an emotion, it's an anger oruh whatever it is, uh a desire,
(25:06):
uh a fear, an anxiety, whateverit is, unless you sit there and
nurture it and feed it, itgenerally lasts about 10 to 20
seconds.
And it's the same with an urge.
When you get a craving forsomething, or you feel the need
to do a thing, it doesn't lastfor an hour.
(25:29):
Generally, it's it's short.
It might be powerful, but if youcan write it through and say,
well, hold on a second, let methink about this and let it
pass.
And then you go, Yeah, I think II don't need that.
I'm I'm okay.
You'll realize when you realizethat it it doesn't take very
(25:49):
long, and you know that you canwrite it, it'll give you the
wherewithal and maybe even thecourage to um hold on that
little bit.
And it create positive places,like surround yourself with cues
for good habits or or goodpeople, or go to a place where
(26:11):
it's just not acceptable to dothe thing that you were doing.
Um there's a lot of ways thatyou can do those things, you
know, set out your exerciseclothes so that you wake up and
you're like, oh yeah, I'm gonnago running today, or I'm gonna
go uh I'm gonna do that thing,or put the book in front of your
(26:33):
uh write it right in at yourbreakfast table because I'm
gonna I'm gonna disciplinemyself to read, or whatever it
is, make it easy to do the goodthing and more difficult to do
the hard, the bad thing.
Uh practice mindfulness.
This is another really importantthing that has to do with
accountability.
(26:54):
Um, but a lot of times we willallow just not thinking and lack
of awareness, lack ofmindfulness, and we'll do that
thing, not thinking about it.
How many times do you findyourself eating a bowl of
(27:15):
whatever that thing that youdon't want to eat or you
shouldn't be eating, and youdon't even remember how you got
it.
You don't remember going to thefridge, you don't remember
pouring it, you don't rememberall of a sudden you're just
doing it, you're eating it, ormaybe it's lighting up that
cigarette, or maybe you got thatdrink in your hand, or whatever
your thing is.
It's you just it they can becomesuch a mindless habit that you
(27:39):
just find yourself doing itwithout thinking.
So be mindful, live in thatmoment, and things like
meditation or deep breathing orprayer can be very powerful in
keeping your mind present.
And if you truly want to quitthe habit, then you're gonna be
(28:01):
mindful of that at all times.
And remember, you're gonna dowhat you want to do.
People that have that do thingsthat they just whatever, they
don't own it.
The truth is you do what youwant to do.
So if you get in a fight withyour spouse over stupid shit,
(28:25):
the truth is that's what youwant to do.
Nobody's making you do that.
Or if you eat the lousy food,well, you went and bought it and
you wanted that at one point.
Whatever it is, we do what wewant to do, and and mindfulness
can be very important inreminding us of what is it that
(28:46):
I want, and maybe digging deeperand owning the thing that you
want.
And no, I really want to losethat weight.
I really want to, I really wantthis cancer to be gone, so I'm
gonna do the things that I needto do for that to happen.
I've struggled with that alittle bit lately because I have
this low red blood cell count.
(29:08):
So I really need to get a littlemore protein in me, and that
goes totally against the dietthat I'm on, which means I got
to take more enzyme, which costs$1,000 a month, and I don't want
to spend that money.
And it's really given me a bitof a struggle where I need to do
the thing because I'm weak andI've got all these symptoms of
(29:29):
anemia and low, low red bloodcells in hemoglobin, but it also
I see that slippery slope thatsays, Oh, well, you you had that
one burrito, let's have anotherone tomorrow.
You know, I made a decision tohave that one burrito, and and I
took the enzyme and I did thething I had to do.
(29:50):
Uh, I found myself having asweet tooth and going, yeah, I'm
gonna buy myself a bag of candybars.
And I ate them, and they weren'tthey were sort of healthy candy
bars.
They're full of coconut andcoconut sugar, but truth is it's
sugar, and it's not good, andit's not better, and it's it,
it's it was something I letmyself do, but I'm not gonna do
(30:13):
it again.
I'm not gonna keep doing it, youknow.
It was just a moment of I gottaget through this struggle, and I
let myself have a little bit ofa of a joy for a minute, but I'm
back back on track.
And uh mindfulness is a big partof that.
(30:35):
Pause before you act.
A lot of times we we we justknee-jerk react when somebody
comes up to you and irritatesyou.
You gotta go and give them thatjab or or pout or ignore them,
or whatever the thing that youdo.
And take a second when you getirritated, because chances are
(30:59):
it's Something that you need toexperience and learn and get
over, you know.
That's where growth comes from.
And so give yourself a a secondbefore you take an action.
You know, there's an old wisdomof, you know, count to 10 before
you say that thing when you'regonna want to say a destructive
(31:23):
thing.
Well, it's true.
Give yourself a second to thinkit over.
Is this really what I want todo?
Because the truth is you can'tundo anything.
If you say it, you said it.
If you do it, you did it.
You can't go back and undoanything.
Not not really.
You can say you're sorry, youcan puke it back up, you can
(31:45):
whatever, purge yourself of thatthing you did.
But the truth is, when you didit, you did it.
And so take a minute, pause,take five seconds, ten seconds.
The longer you wait, the betterthe choice you're gonna make.
So consider that.
Here's another one (32:02):
reward
yourself.
This is big.
Uh, we function well withrewards.
And if you can create some kindof a system that says, well, if
I get through to lunch, I'llgive myself this thing that I
like.
That's not bad.
That has nothing to do with thishabit.
(32:22):
I'll let myself, I don't know,whatever, sit and watch uh 20
minutes of TV or or scrollthrough the internet or
whatever.
Just take a nap.
Whatever the thing that that youwant to do, but you don't really
let yourself do, but it hasnothing to do with your habit.
Give yourself an incentive whenyou're reaching a little
(32:44):
milestone and set a milestone,make yourself work for it, and
celebrate these little littlewins.
Sometimes we take so many thingsfor granted, including the
little progresses.
And I'm guilty of that.
I'm like, yeah, whatever.
That was a little thing.
How much did that matter?
Well, own it.
(33:06):
That little thing was could havebeen a little bad thing.
Instead, it was a little goodthing.
So give yourself a give yourselfa celebration that says, hey
man, you did all right.
Good work.
A little attaboy goes a longway.
That's where a lot of dopaminecomes from.
That feel-good hormone in yourbrain.
(33:30):
And especially, you know,another reason for having
community around you is they canreinforce these little things.
When you celebrate a littlething and somebody else
celebrates it with you, hey, itfeels extra good.
Here's one learn from yoursetbacks.
You know, it's it's we're human.
Part of the human experience iswe're gonna screw up, we're
(33:53):
gonna make mistakes, we're gonnafall down.
And one thing that I've learnedis falling down is where we
learn.
Don't be afraid to fall.
I mean, don't try to fall, butif you do, you know, first thing
you do is you get yourself backup on your feet and you go,
okay, you're all right.
(34:14):
Don't beat yourself up becauseyou fell.
Praise yourself because you gotback up.
Acknowledge, hey, I'm in a spotwhere I can learn from.
Let's let's take advantage ofthis and learn from it.
So when you fall and you dosomething stupid, well, let's
look at that and say, what can Ido different?
(34:36):
Be ready to pivot, to adjustyour strategy, or something's
not working, or you need to addsomething or take something away
from it, you know, acknowledgethat.
Don't be stuck in I'm gonna dothis this way, and that's all
there is, or forget it.
You know, how many times do Ihear that?
Forget it, it's not working.
Well, if it's not working, do ita little different, and maybe
(34:58):
it'll work this time.
You know, what's your goal?
Is your goal to make it work?
Is your goal to make an excusefor it not working?
All right, I like that one.
And maybe the most importantthing is stay committed and
persistent.
I don't know how many times I'vetalked about the one thing the
(35:20):
human experience offers us isthe ability to carry on, get
through that tough day.
Just make it through the day,make it through the hour, make
it through the minute.
You know, that's the one thingthat AA uh I think does have
good is one day at a time,right?
We're gonna get through one day.
I'm not worried about the month,the year, just get through the
(35:42):
day, you'll be all right.
And tomorrow's a new day, we'regonna try it again.
I think that that is critical.
It's just commit yourself.
Say, I'm gonna just stay withthis.
And if I get a rough spot, I'mgonna commit to getting through
an hour, whatever it is.
(36:05):
Just remember, it's gonna taketime, and dedication is the key.
So you just gotta keepreinforcing that commitment,
that dedication, and take timeregularly to reflect and look on
not only how you're doing, whatwhat struggles you're dealing
(36:27):
with, but look back.
I don't know how many times I'veforgotten about how far I've
come in any given situationbecause I'm busy stuck in the
fat in the fight in thetrenches, and I'm busy going
through that grueling grind whenthe reality is, wow, look at how
far I've come.
I used to not be able to do thisat all, and now I can do it.
(36:48):
Or, you know, this used to be sodifficult, now it's it's not so
bad.
Remember, breaking a habit isgonna require a deep
understanding of the behavior.
You gotta really get to knowyourself.
Um, you got to have a commitmentto change, and you've got to be
willing to create a program or astrategy to manage the process.
(37:12):
And if you do these things, youcan overcome anything, any bad
habit, you can develop betterhabits, healthy constructive
behaviors.
And remember, persistence iseverything you can carry on, get
through it.
Every step matters, no matterhow small.
(37:34):
And we are what we decide to be.
So, on that note, I just want tothank everybody for being a part
of this, uh, for listening.
And um, you know, if you reallywant to get deep, we've got the
subscriber episodes.
And I just really want to thankall the listeners for making
this show possible.
(37:55):
And I'm your host, Joe Grumba,and we will see you next time.