June 9, 2025 • 26 mins
When traditional Eastern medicine meets therapeutic horticulture, something magical happens. This fascinating conversation between host Joe Grumbine and guest V Martinez explores the rich intersection of healing practices at the beautiful Gardens of Hope—a 2.5-acre sanctuary thoughtfully designed with "zones" that evoke different emotional responses as visitors journey through the landscape.
Martinez shares her winding path to becoming a traditional complementary and integrative healing practitioner. From early vegetarianism influenced by her mother, through studies in business and pre-pharmacy, to field botany work across multiple states, her journey finally led to Chinese medicine after experiencing its remarkable effectiveness firsthand. When acupuncture healed her broken toe after months of conventional care had failed, she knew she'd found her calling.
The heart of their discussion centers on the powerful concept that food truly is medicine. Chinese medicine recognizes how different flavors and temperature qualities in foods can strategically address specific health conditions—a stark contrast to America's processed food landscape. Both practitioners emphasize the profound connection that develops when growing your own food, noting how nurturing plants from seed to harvest naturally encourages healthier eating habits.
Perhaps most exciting is their plan to create a dedicated Chinese herb garden at Gardens of Hope. This collaboration will explore how traditional medicinal plants might adapt to local growing conditions, potentially offering formulations better suited to people living in that environment. As global herb supply chains face challenges with contamination and environmental changes, local cultivation represents both a solution and an opportunity for innovation.
Ready to discover how integrating Eastern medicine principles with therapeutic horticulture could transform your approach to wellness? Listen now and join this journey where ancient wisdom meets modern healing practices in the garden.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today I've got a very
special guest with me.
Her name is V Martinez andshe's a traditional
complementary and integrativehealing practitioner.
And that's a lot of words, butthey're impactful words.
And she's come out to theGardens of Hope Hope and we're
(00:22):
talking about working togetherand integrating these practices
using our therapeutichorticulture in our gardens.
So be welcome to the show.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Really good.
Thank you, Joe, for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Awesome.
Well, it's been a treat We'vebeen able to come out here and
visit and you've been able tosee the gardens a little bit.
We've been able to sit and talka little bit about things we do
here in our therapeutichorticulture programs, and I'd
like to learn a little bit aboutyou and the things that you
bring.
First of all, tell me just whatwas your thought about just
being out here in the gardens?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I just felt this relaxed zone as I was walking by
and getting all the scents in.
It's a beautiful property, lotsof lush flora and fauna.
I saw a bunch of little lizards.
I saw your owl pet.
Can you name them?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
You know there's a bunch of them.
So there's hims and hers.
There's about four differenttypes of owls and you can stick
around out here into the sunsetand you can see them all flying
around it amazing.
Yeah, you saw the one up in thein the tree I think that's a
male okay I'm not 100% sure, butI could just see the eyes.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, yeah, maybe a white horn, that's a barn owl
barn owl yeah, but we have mywife.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I don't know if she showed you the picture of that
horned owl no that about a monthago, I don't know, six weeks
ago, I was in my worst pointwith this cancer and I was
really in a bad spot.
She comes out and she goes.
Honey, you got to see this andI hobbled myself outside and
there's this fledgling greathorned owl still had down
(01:58):
feathers on him and he wassitting in a tree only about
eight or nine feet high so youcould just look at her.
She got up on a ladder andliterally got right up.
She was shooting pictures,shooting videos, talking to him.
He was there all day, all day.
He spent the day with usthey're fascinating.
And then in the evening youheard the parents clicking away
(02:19):
talking to him, and then he flewoff and we haven't seen him
since.
Okay, so just beautiful though.
And um, yeah, they're, I mean,they're our pest control.
They keep all of our rodentsdown and we don't use any kind
of poisons or anything,something about their eyes, just
like oh, it makes me feel likethey really penetrate my soul.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
That was probably the second time I've seen an owl
eye to eye nice the first timewas through, uh binoculars
binoculars it's not a telescopebinoculars yeah that a random
person just lent me and theywere.
They were looking right at themand me and my friend were just
hiking and I'm like can we?
Borrow them right when I putthem on, yeah, it like went from
(02:55):
being turned to like.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I saw the whole tent and the whole head turned nice
isn't that, and they could turntheir whole head around.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
That's wild and it just hit my soul.
Like whoa I couldn't stop andmy friend was like, okay, give
it up, let her go.
Let her go.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, so that was a great like intro to your garden.
Yeah, yeah as we walk around,there's different zones for
different modes.
Absolutely, I absolutely canfeel the vibe of every zone.
It's just kind of like this oh,I'm entering this more group
space, so I'm entering this moreprivate space there's these
different rooms.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You know we sort of like pathways that go all around
and you know it's funny, it'sonly two and a half acres but
you can walk around as much aslike a 10 acre property because
there's literally just pathwaysto go here and there, and if you
notice when you walk along,you'll stop and you look in a
place and you'll notice what itis the zone, the room.
(03:52):
And then you walk a few steps,10 or 15 steps, and all of a
sudden you look back and youcan't even see where you were
that's exactly what I didearlier when I went to my car.
I was like wait minute, did I?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
just pass the zone or where?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you kind ofget lost, even though it's not
very big.
It's not that big, I think it'sthe way the landscape is laid
out.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
It's three-dimensional too, it is.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And it's also kind of sloped.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, and it slopes in and out as you.
Lot of dimension to it.
There's a lot of yeah, that'smore than the two, and plus not
being able to see like what'svery far.
You can see this one littlebush and this tree and just
maybe a feature or waterwhatever, but you can't see any
farther than that.
(04:36):
I like that and it's like, oh,this I got, I, I found this
space, you know, and thenthere's little places to sit.
All over the place there's evenlogs that you can just sit down
, and chairs and tables kind ofall over, and so it's like
Hidden art.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, littlepieces Sitting with, like this,
mouth open.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, it's very like bright eyed Yep Just in the
corner that blends in.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Exactly, but it kind of doesn't.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And you're like oh, this trippy thing and every time
like.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I mean, I walk around this place multiple times a day
for 30 years and I've alwaysseen something new, every single
time I walk around.
Every morning, I get up and Iwalk around with my dogs and I
look for that new thing.
There's always a flower thatopened up, or an owl feather
that landed, or some bird that Ihadn't seen before, but it's
(05:22):
always something new.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And you were mentioning that I think it was
your wife 30 years ago it wasall flat land.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
It was nothing.
Well, I mean, the hill wasstill there, but yeah, there was
nothing.
The plants weren't here, thedriveway wasn't here, the pool
wasn't here, the house wasn'there, most of the trees, none of
the plants, it was just old,Beautiful space.
Yeah, so you know a lot of loveand a lot of healing, A lot of
(05:48):
people have gained a lot ofpeace, A lot of grief has been
overcome, A lot of anxiety, Alot of, just a lot of everything
.
So I'd like to hear about you,know your, your practices.
(06:08):
You have a pretty wide range ofhealing arts that you work with
.
I know you you work with herbsand you do some formulation.
I know you deal with someEastern medicine practices.
You deal with a bunch ofdifferent things.
Why don't you tell me a littlebit about your background?
What got you into this?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
That's a good question.
I've been into alternativemedicine from a very young age
through my mom's influence.
I was vegetarian from the ageof fourth grade.
Around high school I becamepescatarian and then in college
was the first time I tried bacon.
(06:51):
Really, I decided to jumpoutside of my scope.
All right Try some meats I'dnever tried in my life.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, what did bacon do for you?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Bacon was delicious.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Wasn't it To this day .
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I still eat bacon.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I'm a vegan by force right now because of my cancer,
but I do.
I think people eat way too muchmeat.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
But I think meat has a place.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I subscribe to eat right for your blood type.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I really think there's a lot of truth to that.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And I mean I studied Eastern rooted practices.
So, food is medicine.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And eating is definitely what's going to take
you further into your disease orinto health 100%.
And in Eastern, you know, know,in chinese medicine
specifically, which is what Istudied, there's, uh, there's
more than five flavors, but themain five are sour, sweet,
bitter, pungent, salty then,there's bland um, so all foods
(07:46):
can fall into most of thosecategories, right.
And then there's uh, there'stemperature profiles right foods
as well.
So it's hot, warm, cold, cool.
There's more neutral for fruits, for vegetables, for meats even
.
And so, according to what yourbody is telling you and me as a
(08:06):
practitioner, that's how we kindof cater to your diet right.
And there's so much truth tothat.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's such powerful, uh, a pillar.
You know so many people likeyou think about what people eat.
You drive around and you seejust one fast food place after
another.
Everything you drove even go onthrough the grocery store.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Everything's processed, everything's
prepackaged on a road trip,sometimes you have trouble
finding something clean.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, just finding some food Finding food.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You know you have to go to the grocery store a lot of
the time.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Big time, really the only place.
Or find a fruit stand off theside of the road, exactly, yeah,
Nobody's really selling soupoff the side of the road.
No, that's a niche that I feellike could be filled with the
word.
You see bread and it's like youcan't even read most of the
words If it doesn't have, youknow, flour, water and salt and
(09:00):
yeast.
I mean, that's really all youneed, our sourdough starter.
You know, and that's it.
And everything else is likewhat do I need that for?
Make it soft and spongy, ormake it not get moldy?
Well, bread gets moldy, so eatit before it goes bad.
You know, exactly so yeah.
I think that that's maybe one ofour biggest problems,
(09:23):
especially here in America,where everything's so easy and
convenient and cheap.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
My journey kind of scaled in and out of that,
though, because it wasn't myfirst interest.
My first major was actuallybusiness oh really and I went
from that to uh, pre-pharmacy.
I thought I want to be apharmacy tech, just because, it
was an easy route and I waspretty good at the sciences, and
then I realized I was justdoing job security.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
There's always going to be that yeah, I believed in
it right, I've ever subscribedto.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So I was like, why am I doing?
This right for wrong, and sothen I fell into the botany
program at Weber StateUniversity in Utah, which is
where I was living at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
All right.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And they did a natural medicine route and I was
like cool, well, this is, youknow, a 45 minute commute from
both me and like my job, but Ithink I could sacrifice that for
two years.
So I did that while I was aflight attendant.
Oh, wow, and then yeah, I gotthe degree and then I was like
wait, I really like the fieldside of botany.
(10:20):
So even though, I didn't getthat degree.
You know, I have career.
Adhd is what I like to call itand so I did a couple of field
jobs for about four seasons.
I did seasonal botanical workall around, you know, Utah,
Colorado, Alaska, and thenfinally landed in the North Bay
area.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
All right.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Where there's a Chinese medicine school and I
was like you know, it's time forme to tap into that.
Prior to that, I tried Chinesemedicine for the first time,
probably 10, 15 years beforethat.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
When I broke a pinky toe and I went to an
acupuncturist okay that dide-stem, just on the pinky toe.
Didn't do any other points onmy body, just direct e-stem and
on that pinky toe he's likewithin five treatments we should
get you back to health.
And this is after three monthsof me nursing it right you can't
(11:08):
do much for a broken pinky toeand I was a fight at the time
like just walking and walkingaround, icing, yeah, and doing
what I could, but it was sopainful, yeah, and sure enough,
within like the second treatment, I was like, oh, there's
something here wow, this feelsamazing.
Already, and then, within thatfive fifth treatment, I was back
to normal wow and fully likefunctional that'll catch your
(11:31):
attention pretty quick yeah andat that time I was already like
I want to go like thenaturopathic route, but I don't
know what and I thought of likean od degree.
Um, I don't know, it just didn'thit the right buttons for me.
When I had that treatment foracupuncture I was like I think
this is it.
I want to study chinesemedicine yeah, yeah and uh
(11:51):
definitely took a lot ofcommitment on my part and a lot
of uh honestly like isolationbecause I moved so much for just
the work for the job and then Istayed for, you know, chasing
the career.
So throughout my life I'vealways just gotten used to
moving and it was fun at thetime.
And now I'm just like it's notfun anymore.
(12:12):
This last move back to losangeles, I'm hoping will be my
last all right I'm not hoping.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know, we create our yeah, yeah, you decide what
you want to stay there for atleast five years all right and
or longer.
You know, that's where my familyis okay, my parents are growing
old and it is very nice to beback right now right and a great
time to be here with youabsolutely, and our paths have
just crossed and I can see afuture together, working
together and helping peoplethank you, I do too.
(12:40):
Yeah, we have very similarmindsets, exactly viewpoints on
life and the cool thing is isyou know things.
I don't know and I know thingsyou don't know and we can share
our experiences and learn fromeach other.
And yeah, you know, I think it'schinese medicine has always
interested me.
I've never really studied.
I've been an herbalist for mostof my life, but that's you know
(13:00):
, such a general term.
And and I've studied herbs thatgrow around me for the most
part native american herbs andeuropean herbs for the most part
, but I deal with some Chinesestuff.
But I can remember I've workedwith a lot of plant people for
many, many years and a long timeago I had a girlfriend up in
(13:22):
Oakland and she was a longtimeherbalist and we went to this
Chinese pharmacy and it wasliterally bins of plants and
animals and all these differentthings.
And it was like she had thisprescription for a soup and then
(13:42):
the guy came in and he's likehere's all your things and you
put it together and you makeyour soup and that's your
medicine.
And I was like, wow, that's,there was something about that
that really struck a chord withme.
I go, that's really importantand I was in my 20s.
It was like I think you knowthings but you don't.
(14:02):
But that really hit me.
As to the power of food asmedicine, and it really ever
since that point I've alwayslooked at what I eat, and in a
different way, and you go.
What am I really putting inthere?
You know, and and and you knowit's a weird thing, Cause it's
like, it's almost like counterproductive, cause if it tastes
(14:25):
good, it's generally not thatgood for you.
And if it tastes, if itgenerally exactly.
And then you learn.
You learn to adapt your taste.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Honestly, what I've found the most interesting about
herbs is and somebody told methis before it actually happened
to me, and then that's, I think, why I noticed it but one of my
favorite herbs professorsmentioned that if it's the right
formula for you, yeah, it mighttaste like ass at first.
But the more you drink it youactually crave it, because it's
your body telling you this iswhat you need, exactly because
(14:53):
it knows what it's getting fromit.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
And I've always had an affinity for bitters, and
bitters are generally tonic.
They usually have if it'sbitter, it probably is doing
something for you a positive,and I've always had a.
I like things that are bitter.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
So I've always.
When I make my formulas, a lotof times they're like people are
like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
It doesn't taste.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I'm like I did not make it for its taste?
Yeah well, chinese medicine,bitter, is associated to the
heart or the fire channel, solike heart and small intestine.
Um, so it's possible.
You know you're deficient inwhat is that in?
Uh, the salty, so like woodfire is metal water.
Um, attributes, okay so likeyou know, it's possible.
I haven't looked at your timebut like sometimes you do crave,
(15:43):
or other times you're cravingand it's not necessarily needed
in your body right, right and soit's because you're eating so
much bitter that it's creatingthis other pathogen in your body
.
Could very well be, and so it's,yeah, it's not necessarily, if
you crave it, you need it, butsometimes it definitely can be
that it could be that, yeah, andI know that, like I went down
(16:05):
this healing journey of you know, my dad passed away.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
He was overweight, diabetic, sleep apnea, heart
disease, all the stuff.
And I was looking at myself andI was 50 pounds overweight.
And I'm like oh no, that'sgoing to be me.
So I'm like I got this wake-upcall and I started studying
nutrition better and I startedwhat was your wake-up call?
My dad passing and realizingthat I was going to be him and I
(16:31):
had that genetic.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
How old was he when he passed 70.
Okay, way too young.
Yeah, that is young.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And he was a surgeon and he knew better.
Yeah, and he just had astressful life and made a lot of
bad choices.
Yeah, and so I started, you know, studying nutrition and
changing the way I ate and beganthis journey, and I don't
regret it for a second.
You know, and I've learned thatI used to love and crave sugar
(17:03):
and bread and all the thingsthat do bad things to you if you
have too much of them and neverate enough vegetables.
I did everything wrong and Ijust started being a little more
careful, started switching mydiet and paying attention to the
foods and making food andcutting out all the processed
(17:25):
stuff, and all of a sudden, Ilost 50 pounds in less than a
year and I've kept it off forseven years and what happened
was I started growing morevegetables and started really
eating huge amounts ofvegetables as part of my diet
and started craving them.
I started to really become likeoh, I give me a big bowl of
(17:47):
broccoli and some olive oil andI'll just eat it as a meal.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do you think there's an association to growing your
own fruits, vegetables and thenactually eating them?
Oh, absolutely people grewtheir own veggies.
Oh, it's exciting.
Yeah, you take care of it.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You nurture it.
Of course I want to.
You can't wait to pick it.
It, oh, it's exciting.
Yeah, you take care of it.
You nurture it.
Of course I want to eat it.
You can't wait to pick it.
It's not ready, it's not.
Ooh, it's ready now, yeah, andthen you want to go and eat it?
Yeah, and there's nothing likethat.
Pick it up fresh.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
It's going to be almost incorporated to your
gardens of hope that's havingtrouble getting their people to
eat the right veggies, come outhere and just grow your own
lettuce, maybe it was just one,yes.
And then you come out here andcome back and come back and
harvest it.
You build and then communitywith other things that other
(18:34):
people not build but grewexactly and you know, that's
sort of one of the.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
The secret treasures of this is that I have
volunteers come and everybodyplants seeds and everybody
transplants and I actually mixthe soil from scratch.
So we have, you know, all ofthis love and attention put to
these things and then everybodygets to harvest and, yeah,
sometimes you harvest the oneyou planted and sometimes you
(19:00):
harvest the one the guy next toyou planted.
But you become part of thiscommunity of of and cycle of
healing exactly, exactly.
so I I really believe that andeventually, like I got this
whole plan that eventually we'reyou know, it's all organic,
it's all um uh, heirlooms.
(19:20):
So the seeds from thevegetables grow and so
eventually we're going to haveour own strains that are grown
here for generations and theywill ultimately become tailored
to this place and eventuallywe'll have those seeds that
we'll have available.
People can take, you know, theGardens of Hope seeds home with
them.
That's beautiful.
So it's all coming.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Question for you.
Yeah, would you be interestedin incorporating some chinese
medicine?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
oh, absolutely because I've been collecting
seeds oh wonderful for the pastcouple years yeah, and I have
yet to put any of them I wouldbe honored because I move so
much yeah that's one of mymissions being back here and
knowing that I'm going to stayfor a while yeah I actually had
a place where I potentially wasgoing to put them earlier this
season and that fell through andso kind of the season's almost
(20:11):
almost.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
You know, too late to start by seed, but honestly,
about half the seeds that I'veum you'd be surprised.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
You can grow things later than you think.
I haven't researched even whatit takes.
So some of them, I'm sure, sureit's still it's still time now,
but, yeah, would you beinterested in a dedicated?
I think that'd be fantastic.
We have actually a hillsidethat we're making our herb
garden, yeah, and we can take acorner of that and that can be
our little chinese corner cool,I think that would be fantastic.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
You know a lot of these, um, I've, I've learned I
wouldn't say a lot because I Idon't know enough, but some of
the ones I've researched, I've,I've seen grow along the coast
of California and Mexico.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So, even though it's not that exact genetics that
would be in China and you knowit would be different cause the
environment's different anyway,Different soil and the species
might be slightly different, butthere's a lack of research
there as to what we can growlocally, absolutely.
And what that benefits, because, honestly, since we live here,
it is possible that we canbenefit even more from that
(21:12):
local source.
And it's getting harder andharder to bring herbs in from
China that are actuallyunsulfated or untreated.
And it's going to get harderand harder.
It's just going to keep gettingespecially as you know, the
environment keeps changing andthe temperature's everywhere.
So I think, being adaptable andbeing like okay, this isn't the
(21:32):
right, exact species that theyused traditionally.
But how can we grow from thisand where?
Where can we still heal?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I agreed and you know the truth is, herbs are so
complex that it's not like asingle molecule drug where you
can study this one drug and howits systems are what it does.
And every single herb is asymphony of compounds and
they're complex and generallyyou don't just take one, you
(22:03):
generally combine things, so youhave this entourage effect of
so many pieces species.
One grows here, one goes thereand it's gonna release different
secondary metabolites alwaysnotable and it's gonna grow
bigger or smaller because it'sadapting and in each person it's
going to react differently totheir own environment, and so so
much of holistic healing andnatural modalities are intuitive
(22:30):
and, you know, based onpractice, and it's not such an
exact science as a whole science.
And you know, you learntechniques and you learn to
observe and you learn to noticewhen things are doing this, that
that's what's happening and youcan adapt and adjust and you
(22:52):
learn.
You know the ideas, theconcepts, the categories of
things.
You know you've got thesebrackets of types of things and
types of systems and all of that.
But really, when it comes downto, like this, specifics in a
molecular level, it's socomplicated you really can't
honestly put your finger down onthis stuff.
You can?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
it just costs a lot of money a lot of money research
, clinical research, as well aslike trials and all of it I mean
people want to get paid forthis because there's either
students or graduates, and it'sjust not easy to come by without
the time and money, and so Idon't know.
I feel like there is room forpotentially like NGO grants in
(23:35):
this aspect.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I think there totally is.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
As far as like funding research to find out
these small differences betweenthings that have already been
researched.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Absolutely.
And things that we can change tomake it better because we're
growing it locally or becausewe're using less water, less
resources, so many different,all these little things,
variables, you can kind of tweaka little bit.
That's a big thing of gardens,of hope is, it's a series of
experimental gardens and youknow, there's all these
(24:05):
permaculture techniques andclaims and this and that I says
well, you know, there's also somany different regions and so
many different microclimates andso many different ways that it
could be different.
So you over in LA, well, you'vegot a whole different way that
the sun and the wind and themoisture and all of the elements
(24:29):
affect you.
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today I've got a very
special guest with me.
Her name is V Martinez andshe's a traditional
complementary and integrativehealing practitioner.
And that's a lot of words, butthey're impactful words.
And she's come out to theGardens of Hope Hope and we're
(00:22):
talking about working togetherand integrating these practices
using our therapeutichorticulture in our gardens.
So be welcome to the show.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Really good.
Thank you, Joe, for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Awesome.
Well, it's been a treat We'vebeen able to come out here and
visit and you've been able tosee the gardens a little bit.
We've been able to sit and talka little bit about things we do
here in our therapeutichorticulture programs, and I'd
like to learn a little bit aboutyou and the things that you
bring.
First of all, tell me just whatwas your thought about just
being out here in the gardens?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I just felt this relaxed zone as I was walking by
and getting all the scents in.
It's a beautiful property, lotsof lush flora and fauna.
I saw a bunch of little lizards.
I saw your owl pet.
Can you name them?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
You know there's a bunch of them.
So there's hims and hers.
There's about four differenttypes of owls and you can stick
around out here into the sunsetand you can see them all flying
around it amazing.
Yeah, you saw the one up in thein the tree I think that's a
male okay I'm not 100% sure, butI could just see the eyes.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, yeah, maybe a white horn, that's a barn owl
barn owl yeah, but we have mywife.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I don't know if she showed you the picture of that
horned owl no that about a monthago, I don't know, six weeks
ago, I was in my worst pointwith this cancer and I was
really in a bad spot.
She comes out and she goes.
Honey, you got to see this andI hobbled myself outside and
there's this fledgling greathorned owl still had down
(01:58):
feathers on him and he wassitting in a tree only about
eight or nine feet high so youcould just look at her.
She got up on a ladder andliterally got right up.
She was shooting pictures,shooting videos, talking to him.
He was there all day, all day.
He spent the day with usthey're fascinating.
And then in the evening youheard the parents clicking away
(02:19):
talking to him, and then he flewoff and we haven't seen him
since.
Okay, so just beautiful though.
And um, yeah, they're, I mean,they're our pest control.
They keep all of our rodentsdown and we don't use any kind
of poisons or anything,something about their eyes, just
like oh, it makes me feel likethey really penetrate my soul.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
That was probably the second time I've seen an owl
eye to eye nice the first timewas through, uh binoculars
binoculars it's not a telescopebinoculars yeah that a random
person just lent me and theywere.
They were looking right at themand me and my friend were just
hiking and I'm like can we?
Borrow them right when I putthem on, yeah, it like went from
(02:55):
being turned to like.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I saw the whole tent and the whole head turned nice
isn't that, and they could turntheir whole head around.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
That's wild and it just hit my soul.
Like whoa I couldn't stop andmy friend was like, okay, give
it up, let her go.
Let her go.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, so that was a great like intro to your garden.
Yeah, yeah as we walk around,there's different zones for
different modes.
Absolutely, I absolutely canfeel the vibe of every zone.
It's just kind of like this oh,I'm entering this more group
space, so I'm entering this moreprivate space there's these
different rooms.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You know we sort of like pathways that go all around
and you know it's funny, it'sonly two and a half acres but
you can walk around as much aslike a 10 acre property because
there's literally just pathwaysto go here and there, and if you
notice when you walk along,you'll stop and you look in a
place and you'll notice what itis the zone, the room.
(03:52):
And then you walk a few steps,10 or 15 steps, and all of a
sudden you look back and youcan't even see where you were
that's exactly what I didearlier when I went to my car.
I was like wait minute, did I?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
just pass the zone or where?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you kind ofget lost, even though it's not
very big.
It's not that big, I think it'sthe way the landscape is laid
out.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
It's three-dimensional too, it is.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And it's also kind of sloped.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, and it slopes in and out as you.
Lot of dimension to it.
There's a lot of yeah, that'smore than the two, and plus not
being able to see like what'svery far.
You can see this one littlebush and this tree and just
maybe a feature or waterwhatever, but you can't see any
farther than that.
(04:36):
I like that and it's like, oh,this I got, I, I found this
space, you know, and thenthere's little places to sit.
All over the place there's evenlogs that you can just sit down
, and chairs and tables kind ofall over, and so it's like
Hidden art.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, littlepieces Sitting with, like this,
mouth open.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, it's very like bright eyed Yep Just in the
corner that blends in.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Exactly, but it kind of doesn't.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And you're like oh, this trippy thing and every time
like.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I mean, I walk around this place multiple times a day
for 30 years and I've alwaysseen something new, every single
time I walk around.
Every morning, I get up and Iwalk around with my dogs and I
look for that new thing.
There's always a flower thatopened up, or an owl feather
that landed, or some bird that Ihadn't seen before, but it's
(05:22):
always something new.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And you were mentioning that I think it was
your wife 30 years ago it wasall flat land.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
It was nothing.
Well, I mean, the hill wasstill there, but yeah, there was
nothing.
The plants weren't here, thedriveway wasn't here, the pool
wasn't here, the house wasn'there, most of the trees, none of
the plants, it was just old,Beautiful space.
Yeah, so you know a lot of loveand a lot of healing, A lot of
(05:48):
people have gained a lot ofpeace, A lot of grief has been
overcome, A lot of anxiety, Alot of, just a lot of everything
.
So I'd like to hear about you,know your, your practices.
(06:08):
You have a pretty wide range ofhealing arts that you work with
.
I know you you work with herbsand you do some formulation.
I know you deal with someEastern medicine practices.
You deal with a bunch ofdifferent things.
Why don't you tell me a littlebit about your background?
What got you into this?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
That's a good question.
I've been into alternativemedicine from a very young age
through my mom's influence.
I was vegetarian from the ageof fourth grade.
Around high school I becamepescatarian and then in college
was the first time I tried bacon.
(06:51):
Really, I decided to jumpoutside of my scope.
All right Try some meats I'dnever tried in my life.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, what did bacon do for you?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Bacon was delicious.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Wasn't it To this day .
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I still eat bacon.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I'm a vegan by force right now because of my cancer,
but I do.
I think people eat way too muchmeat.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
But I think meat has a place.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I subscribe to eat right for your blood type.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I really think there's a lot of truth to that.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
And I mean I studied Eastern rooted practices.
So, food is medicine.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And eating is definitely what's going to take
you further into your disease orinto health 100%.
And in Eastern, you know, know,in chinese medicine
specifically, which is what Istudied, there's, uh, there's
more than five flavors, but themain five are sour, sweet,
bitter, pungent, salty then,there's bland um, so all foods
(07:46):
can fall into most of thosecategories, right.
And then there's uh, there'stemperature profiles right foods
as well.
So it's hot, warm, cold, cool.
There's more neutral for fruits, for vegetables, for meats even
.
And so, according to what yourbody is telling you and me as a
(08:06):
practitioner, that's how we kindof cater to your diet right.
And there's so much truth tothat.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's such powerful, uh, a pillar.
You know so many people likeyou think about what people eat.
You drive around and you seejust one fast food place after
another.
Everything you drove even go onthrough the grocery store.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Everything's processed, everything's
prepackaged on a road trip,sometimes you have trouble
finding something clean.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, just finding some food Finding food.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You know you have to go to the grocery store a lot of
the time.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Big time, really the only place.
Or find a fruit stand off theside of the road, exactly, yeah,
Nobody's really selling soupoff the side of the road.
No, that's a niche that I feellike could be filled with the
word.
You see bread and it's like youcan't even read most of the
words If it doesn't have, youknow, flour, water and salt and
(09:00):
yeast.
I mean, that's really all youneed, our sourdough starter.
You know, and that's it.
And everything else is likewhat do I need that for?
Make it soft and spongy, ormake it not get moldy?
Well, bread gets moldy, so eatit before it goes bad.
You know, exactly so yeah.
I think that that's maybe one ofour biggest problems,
(09:23):
especially here in America,where everything's so easy and
convenient and cheap.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
My journey kind of scaled in and out of that,
though, because it wasn't myfirst interest.
My first major was actuallybusiness oh really and I went
from that to uh, pre-pharmacy.
I thought I want to be apharmacy tech, just because, it
was an easy route and I waspretty good at the sciences, and
then I realized I was justdoing job security.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
There's always going to be that yeah, I believed in
it right, I've ever subscribedto.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So I was like, why am I doing?
This right for wrong, and sothen I fell into the botany
program at Weber StateUniversity in Utah, which is
where I was living at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
All right.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And they did a natural medicine route and I was
like cool, well, this is, youknow, a 45 minute commute from
both me and like my job, but Ithink I could sacrifice that for
two years.
So I did that while I was aflight attendant.
Oh, wow, and then yeah, I gotthe degree and then I was like
wait, I really like the fieldside of botany.
(10:20):
So even though, I didn't getthat degree.
You know, I have career.
Adhd is what I like to call itand so I did a couple of field
jobs for about four seasons.
I did seasonal botanical workall around, you know, Utah,
Colorado, Alaska, and thenfinally landed in the North Bay
area.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
All right.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Where there's a Chinese medicine school and I
was like you know, it's time forme to tap into that.
Prior to that, I tried Chinesemedicine for the first time,
probably 10, 15 years beforethat.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
When I broke a pinky toe and I went to an
acupuncturist okay that dide-stem, just on the pinky toe.
Didn't do any other points onmy body, just direct e-stem and
on that pinky toe he's likewithin five treatments we should
get you back to health.
And this is after three monthsof me nursing it right you can't
(11:08):
do much for a broken pinky toeand I was a fight at the time
like just walking and walkingaround, icing, yeah, and doing
what I could, but it was sopainful, yeah, and sure enough,
within like the second treatment, I was like, oh, there's
something here wow, this feelsamazing.
Already, and then, within thatfive fifth treatment, I was back
to normal wow and fully likefunctional that'll catch your
(11:31):
attention pretty quick yeah andat that time I was already like
I want to go like thenaturopathic route, but I don't
know what and I thought of likean od degree.
Um, I don't know, it just didn'thit the right buttons for me.
When I had that treatment foracupuncture I was like I think
this is it.
I want to study chinesemedicine yeah, yeah and uh
(11:51):
definitely took a lot ofcommitment on my part and a lot
of uh honestly like isolationbecause I moved so much for just
the work for the job and then Istayed for, you know, chasing
the career.
So throughout my life I'vealways just gotten used to
moving and it was fun at thetime.
And now I'm just like it's notfun anymore.
(12:12):
This last move back to losangeles, I'm hoping will be my
last all right I'm not hoping.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
You know, we create our yeah, yeah, you decide what
you want to stay there for atleast five years all right and
or longer.
You know, that's where my familyis okay, my parents are growing
old and it is very nice to beback right now right and a great
time to be here with youabsolutely, and our paths have
just crossed and I can see afuture together, working
together and helping peoplethank you, I do too.
(12:40):
Yeah, we have very similarmindsets, exactly viewpoints on
life and the cool thing is isyou know things.
I don't know and I know thingsyou don't know and we can share
our experiences and learn fromeach other.
And yeah, you know, I think it'schinese medicine has always
interested me.
I've never really studied.
I've been an herbalist for mostof my life, but that's you know
(13:00):
, such a general term.
And and I've studied herbs thatgrow around me for the most
part native american herbs andeuropean herbs for the most part
, but I deal with some Chinesestuff.
But I can remember I've workedwith a lot of plant people for
many, many years and a long timeago I had a girlfriend up in
(13:22):
Oakland and she was a longtimeherbalist and we went to this
Chinese pharmacy and it wasliterally bins of plants and
animals and all these differentthings.
And it was like she had thisprescription for a soup and then
(13:42):
the guy came in and he's likehere's all your things and you
put it together and you makeyour soup and that's your
medicine.
And I was like, wow, that's,there was something about that
that really struck a chord withme.
I go, that's really importantand I was in my 20s.
It was like I think you knowthings but you don't.
(14:02):
But that really hit me.
As to the power of food asmedicine, and it really ever
since that point I've alwayslooked at what I eat, and in a
different way, and you go.
What am I really putting inthere?
You know, and and and you knowit's a weird thing, Cause it's
like, it's almost like counterproductive, cause if it tastes
(14:25):
good, it's generally not thatgood for you.
And if it tastes, if itgenerally exactly.
And then you learn.
You learn to adapt your taste.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Honestly, what I've found the most interesting about
herbs is and somebody told methis before it actually happened
to me, and then that's, I think, why I noticed it but one of my
favorite herbs professorsmentioned that if it's the right
formula for you, yeah, it mighttaste like ass at first.
But the more you drink it youactually crave it, because it's
your body telling you this iswhat you need, exactly because
(14:53):
it knows what it's getting fromit.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
And I've always had an affinity for bitters, and
bitters are generally tonic.
They usually have if it'sbitter, it probably is doing
something for you a positive,and I've always had a.
I like things that are bitter.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
So I've always.
When I make my formulas, a lotof times they're like people are
like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
It doesn't taste.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I'm like I did not make it for its taste?
Yeah well, chinese medicine,bitter, is associated to the
heart or the fire channel, solike heart and small intestine.
Um, so it's possible.
You know you're deficient inwhat is that in?
Uh, the salty, so like woodfire is metal water.
Um, attributes, okay so likeyou know, it's possible.
I haven't looked at your timebut like sometimes you do crave,
(15:43):
or other times you're cravingand it's not necessarily needed
in your body right, right and soit's because you're eating so
much bitter that it's creatingthis other pathogen in your body
.
Could very well be, and so it's,yeah, it's not necessarily, if
you crave it, you need it, butsometimes it definitely can be
that it could be that, yeah, andI know that, like I went down
(16:05):
this healing journey of you know, my dad passed away.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
He was overweight, diabetic, sleep apnea, heart
disease, all the stuff.
And I was looking at myself andI was 50 pounds overweight.
And I'm like oh no, that'sgoing to be me.
So I'm like I got this wake-upcall and I started studying
nutrition better and I startedwhat was your wake-up call?
My dad passing and realizingthat I was going to be him and I
(16:31):
had that genetic.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
How old was he when he passed 70.
Okay, way too young.
Yeah, that is young.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And he was a surgeon and he knew better.
Yeah, and he just had astressful life and made a lot of
bad choices.
Yeah, and so I started, you know, studying nutrition and
changing the way I ate and beganthis journey, and I don't
regret it for a second.
You know, and I've learned thatI used to love and crave sugar
(17:03):
and bread and all the thingsthat do bad things to you if you
have too much of them and neverate enough vegetables.
I did everything wrong and Ijust started being a little more
careful, started switching mydiet and paying attention to the
foods and making food andcutting out all the processed
(17:25):
stuff, and all of a sudden, Ilost 50 pounds in less than a
year and I've kept it off forseven years and what happened
was I started growing morevegetables and started really
eating huge amounts ofvegetables as part of my diet
and started craving them.
I started to really become likeoh, I give me a big bowl of
(17:47):
broccoli and some olive oil andI'll just eat it as a meal.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Do you think there's an association to growing your
own fruits, vegetables and thenactually eating them?
Oh, absolutely people grewtheir own veggies.
Oh, it's exciting.
Yeah, you take care of it.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You nurture it.
Of course I want to.
You can't wait to pick it.
It, oh, it's exciting.
Yeah, you take care of it.
You nurture it.
Of course I want to eat it.
You can't wait to pick it.
It's not ready, it's not.
Ooh, it's ready now, yeah, andthen you want to go and eat it?
Yeah, and there's nothing likethat.
Pick it up fresh.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
It's going to be almost incorporated to your
gardens of hope that's havingtrouble getting their people to
eat the right veggies, come outhere and just grow your own
lettuce, maybe it was just one,yes.
And then you come out here andcome back and come back and
harvest it.
You build and then communitywith other things that other
(18:34):
people not build but grewexactly and you know, that's
sort of one of the.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
The secret treasures of this is that I have
volunteers come and everybodyplants seeds and everybody
transplants and I actually mixthe soil from scratch.
So we have, you know, all ofthis love and attention put to
these things and then everybodygets to harvest and, yeah,
sometimes you harvest the oneyou planted and sometimes you
(19:00):
harvest the one the guy next toyou planted.
But you become part of thiscommunity of of and cycle of
healing exactly, exactly.
so I I really believe that andeventually, like I got this
whole plan that eventually we'reyou know, it's all organic,
it's all um uh, heirlooms.
(19:20):
So the seeds from thevegetables grow and so
eventually we're going to haveour own strains that are grown
here for generations and theywill ultimately become tailored
to this place and eventuallywe'll have those seeds that
we'll have available.
People can take, you know, theGardens of Hope seeds home with
them.
That's beautiful.
So it's all coming.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Question for you.
Yeah, would you be interestedin incorporating some chinese
medicine?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
oh, absolutely because I've been collecting
seeds oh wonderful for the pastcouple years yeah, and I have
yet to put any of them I wouldbe honored because I move so
much yeah that's one of mymissions being back here and
knowing that I'm going to stayfor a while yeah I actually had
a place where I potentially wasgoing to put them earlier this
season and that fell through andso kind of the season's almost
(20:11):
almost.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
You know, too late to start by seed, but honestly,
about half the seeds that I'veum you'd be surprised.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
You can grow things later than you think.
I haven't researched even whatit takes.
So some of them, I'm sure, sureit's still it's still time now,
but, yeah, would you beinterested in a dedicated?
I think that'd be fantastic.
We have actually a hillsidethat we're making our herb
garden, yeah, and we can take acorner of that and that can be
our little chinese corner cool,I think that would be fantastic.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
You know a lot of these, um, I've, I've learned I
wouldn't say a lot because I Idon't know enough, but some of
the ones I've researched, I've,I've seen grow along the coast
of California and Mexico.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So, even though it's not that exact genetics that
would be in China and you knowit would be different cause the
environment's different anyway,Different soil and the species
might be slightly different, butthere's a lack of research
there as to what we can growlocally, absolutely.
And what that benefits, because, honestly, since we live here,
it is possible that we canbenefit even more from that
(21:12):
local source.
And it's getting harder andharder to bring herbs in from
China that are actuallyunsulfated or untreated.
And it's going to get harderand harder.
It's just going to keep gettingespecially as you know, the
environment keeps changing andthe temperature's everywhere.
So I think, being adaptable andbeing like okay, this isn't the
(21:32):
right, exact species that theyused traditionally.
But how can we grow from thisand where?
Where can we still heal?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I agreed and you know the truth is, herbs are so
complex that it's not like asingle molecule drug where you
can study this one drug and howits systems are what it does.
And every single herb is asymphony of compounds and
they're complex and generallyyou don't just take one, you
(22:03):
generally combine things, so youhave this entourage effect of
so many pieces species.
One grows here, one goes thereand it's gonna release different
secondary metabolites alwaysnotable and it's gonna grow
bigger or smaller because it'sadapting and in each person it's
going to react differently totheir own environment, and so so
much of holistic healing andnatural modalities are intuitive
(22:30):
and, you know, based onpractice, and it's not such an
exact science as a whole science.
And you know, you learntechniques and you learn to
observe and you learn to noticewhen things are doing this, that
that's what's happening and youcan adapt and adjust and you
(22:52):
learn.
You know the ideas, theconcepts, the categories of
things.
You know you've got thesebrackets of types of things and
types of systems and all of that.
But really, when it comes downto, like this, specifics in a
molecular level, it's socomplicated you really can't
honestly put your finger down onthis stuff.
You can?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
it just costs a lot of money a lot of money research
, clinical research, as well aslike trials and all of it I mean
people want to get paid forthis because there's either
students or graduates, and it'sjust not easy to come by without
the time and money, and so Idon't know.
I feel like there is room forpotentially like NGO grants in
(23:35):
this aspect.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I think there totally is.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
As far as like funding research to find out
these small differences betweenthings that have already been
researched.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Absolutely.
And things that we can change tomake it better because we're
growing it locally or becausewe're using less water, less
resources, so many different,all these little things,
variables, you can kind of tweaka little bit.
That's a big thing of gardens,of hope is, it's a series of
experimental gardens and youknow, there's all these
(24:05):
permaculture techniques andclaims and this and that I says
well, you know, there's also somany different regions and so
many different microclimates andso many different ways that it
could be different.
So you over in LA, well, you'vegot a whole different way that
the sun and the wind and themoisture and all of the elements
(24:29):
affect you.
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