September 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Sacred plants have the power to heal or harm us—the difference lies entirely in our approach. After decades of working with various plant medicines and hosting ceremonies at our Gardens of Hope, I've witnessed both the profound healing potential and the troubling exploitation surrounding these traditions.
My own journey with tobacco perfectly illustrates this duality. For 13 years, I battled a serious addiction that began when I was just a teenager. Breaking free required what felt like a direct covenant with the divine—perhaps the hardest challenge I faced before my cancer diagnosis. Yet decades later, I've established a completely different relationship with tobacco, approaching it as a sacred medicine and prayer carrier rather than a substance to abuse. The plant hasn't changed, but my relationship with it has transformed entirely.
This transformation reflects a deeper truth about sacred medicines: their impact depends as much on our intention as their inherent properties. Unfortunately, we're witnessing an increasingly commercialized approach to spirituality—from wellness retreats to festival culture to self-proclaimed shamans offering quick fixes. What's missing in these contexts is often genuine reverence, proper preparation, and thorough integration. Too many people approach these medicines wanting to "get as high as possible" rather than seeking authentic healing.
When considering working with plant medicines, begin with meditation and honest self-reflection. Find guides whose energy feels authentic and whose lives demonstrate the positive impact of these practices. Trust your intuition about practitioners and remember that preparation and integration are as important as the ceremony itself. By approaching these sacred plants with humility rather than treating them as commodities, we honor both the medicines themselves and the traditions that have preserved their wisdom through generations.
Have you found yourself questioning the authenticity of modern spiritual practices? Share your experiences or questions in the comments—I'd love to continue this important conversation about maintaining the integrity of sacred healing traditions in our modern world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't know how to work with them in a sacred way
and I don't know that I want to.
The addictive nature of somethings are very difficult.
I recently reestablished arelationship with tobacco.
Now, tobacco is a very, verysacred plant and it's also very,
very abused and it's also very,very um, potentially dangerous
(00:26):
to a lot of people it when andif abused.
But if you work with the sacredside of it, in the sense of you
work with its true spirit, withreverence and in a sacred way,
I it's been used historically tocarry a prayer.
You know we're human beings andand you know it's funny I have
(00:52):
a lot of people in my life thatI've shared pretty deep
experiences with that arespiritual and vulnerable and my
connection to God, or source orspirit or creator, whatever,
jesus.
You know all the ways that weexpress our human experience of
(01:18):
something that is not human, oreven of this world for that
matter.
We live this three-dimensional,low vibrational life and even
the best of us are just.
We're animals and we got toreally be honest about that.
(01:40):
If you think about the natureof things in the universe and
the creative power that ismoving things, and again you can
believe what you want.
We all will do that.
But I believe there's acreative force in this universe
that causes everything to happenin a way that I'll never
(02:06):
probably understand, and for meto be stuck holding a name or a
face or a picture or an image ora set of words that applies to
everything as the be-all andend-all, in my opinion, is
limiting, and I know for many,many people it's good, it's
(02:31):
enough, and I suppose it couldbe enough for me as well.
But I believe in really theunlimited potential of the human
experience.
I believe we have inside of usthe very particles that is that
creative force, and that we haveinside of us the ability to
(02:53):
connect and become or be or useor express that part of us if we
figure out or let ourselves andI'm sort of rambling because
I'm talking about things I don'ttruly understand, but I've
experienced and connected withand felt and I know them to be
(03:15):
true on some level, even if Ican't articulate them, and I'm
just being honest about it.
I don't pretend I'm not ahypocrite about my faith and my
experience with what we calldivinity.
I do know this.
I have been around many, many,many, many people of many, many
(03:36):
different faiths and traditionsand I have found generally the
most hypocrisy in the peoplethat are the most refined in a
particular faith.
You know, christians inparticular.
(03:57):
I am a Christian on some level.
I believe in so many differentthings as to be true, but I
don't limit the experience tothat and say, well, that is the
only truth.
It is a truth that I canexperience and understand in
some way, and there are manytruths that I cannot understand.
(04:21):
And so when I walk with thesesacred plants, it's my attempt
to connect in a deeper way withthat same experience, that same
creative force, that samedivinity that caused everything
to happen in some way, a waythat I don't understand
necessarily, a way that I don'tunderstand necessarily.
(04:44):
And so, even a thing like thefire and I don't diminish that
on any level you know we look atfire as the grandfather, as the
source, the spirit.
You know we talk about the firein our heart, the fire in our
soul, the fire that is ourspirit.
(05:07):
And then you look at an actualfire and you go, wow, what a
connection.
You know, even the sacred heartof jesus has a fire in it.
There's a, there's an element,you know, and people say, well,
fire's an element, it's a lowvibrational, whatever but the
truth is we don't know, we don'tunderstand things.
I know I've spent many, many,many, many hours tending fire
(05:31):
and spending time just beingimmersed in the fire and I've
seen things that I cannotexplain.
I've gotten messages, I'vegotten clarity, I've gotten
feelings, I've gotten all sortsof things that I've gotten
messages, I've gotten clarity,I've gotten feelings, I've
gotten all sorts of things thatI've received and some might say
(05:52):
, well, you're connecting withdark spirits, or you're
connecting with something that'sdemonic, or you're connecting
with something that is not whatyou think it is.
And you know.
The truth is we don't know.
We don't know so many things,but I do know this.
(06:13):
About nine years ago I don'tknow seven, eight, nine years
ago, something like that a dearfriend came over to my house,
and this is a guy that was verychaotic.
He's a good guy but had a lotof drama in his life and was had
(06:34):
a very chaotic energy about himand was always all over the
place.
And one day he came to my houseand he was a different person.
He was transformed and he wascalm.
My house and he was a differentperson.
He was transformed and he wascalm and there was a warmth
about him that I never had seenbefore that way, and he told me
about this experience and he hadworked with a medicine man up
(07:00):
in Montana and he had done whathe called a peyote meeting in a
teepee and he shared with me avery small amount of this
greenish powder and said youknow, you try some, see what it
tastes like.
You know, see how you feel withit.
I just took the teeniest littlebit and I put it between my, my
(07:27):
cheek and gum and almostimmediately I felt it sort of
travel throughout my body andlike tingle, I felt my cells
sort of tingle, and it was verypositive, it was very light, it
was very bright as an energy andI said, wow, there's something
special here and I couldn'texplain it.
(07:49):
I didn't know what I wastapping into, I didn't know what
I was connecting with, but Iknew as a feeling, it was clear
and it was good.
It had my best interest in mindand I could feel that.
(08:12):
And I think that you know, ifwe're working with, with spirit
energy, that's where feelingscan really come in, because if
you're honest with yourself andyour intentions are to become
better, become healed, become abetter person, become more
loving.
Whatever it is that you'reseeking to do with these actions
(08:37):
that you're taking, whateverthey are, I think you know how
you feel against that intention.
I think you know how you feelagainst that intention and I
think, if something is dark ornot connected to God, spirit,
source, creator, whateverhowever you express that term I
(08:59):
think you feel it.
I think you really do, andthat's where accountability and
honesty comes into.
You know the sacred nature ofthese medicines.
So back to tobacco.
I had a 13 year runningaddiction with dip, copenhagen
snuff, whatever you want to callit, and I started when I was 13
(09:20):
years old and before I turned26,.
I was having dreams that mytongue was falling out and my
teeth were rotting and I wasgetting cancer just horrible
dreams.
I was like man.
I got to quit this and it wasthe hardest thing I ever did.
And ultimately I made a dealwith God and I had to rely upon
my faith to shoulder the burdenof this.
(09:44):
And I said, god, you know Ineed you.
If you can take this from me,I'll carry it, but I need you to
do it.
And I felt that we made a deal,that I would have the faith
that he would take that from meand in exchange I would receive
(10:07):
the blessing of the relief ofthis.
And it was the hardest thingI've ever done in my life aside
from this cancer, I never have anew hardest thing in my life,
but prior to that it was thehardest thing I've ever done and
battling an addiction that justdidn't want to let go and gave
(10:27):
up a little teeny bit every day.
Yeah, I mean by that I meanmaybe the cravings uh lasted a
fraction less and took afraction more before the next
one came, but over time itdiminished and it's now been 35
(10:52):
years, 33, 34 years, since I'veput a dip in my mouth and still,
every now and again I get alittle ache in my lip going, hey
, what about me?
And it'll never let go,probably.
But recently I became acquaintedwith Rappe or Rappe, and that
(11:14):
is a snuff that's blown up intoyour nose and it can be a blend
of tobacco and other herbs.
I've also worked with thetobacco smoke in the tipi.
So in that tradition for theprayer you'll roll tobacco into
a corn husk and smoke it, butgenerally you smoke it like a
(11:40):
cigar.
You're not inhaling it and I'veeven allowed myself to smoke a
cigar, very in a very specialplace.
I will acknowledge thesacredness of the tobacco and
(12:03):
enjoy it in a reverent way andone time in a very special time.
So I've allowed myself toreconnect with this plant in a
different light than I did whenI was dipping.
And when I was dipping it wasjust a need, it was an addiction
(12:24):
, it was a drug and I just putit in and kept it in my mouth
all day long and it was just abad, bad experience.
It was just a bad, badexperience.
But now, and with Rappe, mostof the time I pass when it is
passed around in ceremony,occasionally I will do it and
(12:47):
when I do I request just thesmallest, smallest amount, and
when I do it I receive it and Iconnect with the Spirit on a
prayerful plane and I use it asa guide, a tool to help me focus
my intention in my prayer, andI believe I'm able to work with
(13:15):
it in a way that um isn'tbringing the addiction back.
I don't have a desire, a deeperdesire, to go out and buy a can
of copenhagen or anything likeI did before.
So I'm happy about that.
What I'm seeing a lot you knowwith with social media and this
new, I don't know superficialfreak show that we are in.
(13:41):
You know Burning man and allthe bullshit festivals and all
this stuff.
And it's not to say that therearen't good things in these
things.
You know all the new ageshamans, all the.
(14:04):
You know all the wellnessretreats and all the exploitive
situations.
And you know it's just humannature.
People find a thing that's good, that helps a person, and they
maybe start out as a you a goodnotion.
I know I could help more people, but then people come to you
and you know they start suckingup to you because you have a
(14:25):
thing they want.
You know, for many, many years II had the good pot and I
learned the hard way that peoplewould exploit you to get what
you have and lead you to believethings were ways that they
weren't and give, put you up ona pedestal and treat you
differently.
And you know, no matter who youare, you kind of fall into it
(14:49):
to some degree.
No matter, you know you stayhumble, whatever.
But it's like a drug, you know.
And when people come up to youand say how great you are and
this wonderful thing you haveand they treat you so nice and
well.
They want to put money in yourhand and and honor you for
whatever.
Um, it's hard to turn away fromthat and go.
(15:14):
Well, that's bullshit.
I'm just you, I'm just adifferent other person, even
though you know that to be trueand it's it's.
It's a slippery slope and Iknow a lot of people find their
way, especially when sex isinvolved.
You know, a lot of people areyoung and pretty and they
(15:34):
connect with older people thathave needs and resources, and
I've seen a lot of people takeadvantage of a lot of situations
in the name of healing and inthe name of these plant
medicines and it's to me, youknow, the false idols of the old
(15:59):
testament.
You know it's that kind ofthing it's.
It's not the same connection,even though the tools that
they're using are the very sametools that the true healers are
using, and that's where kind ofI'm at right now.
(16:20):
We created the Gardens of Hope.
We spent 30 years building thisgarden and we've worked with
people from all over the worldin the last 30 years and we've
worked with different spiritualtraditions, we've worked with
prayer groups, we've worked withall sorts of different plant
medicines and healers and wehave a teepee and we've run
(16:43):
Navajo and Arapaho NorthernCheyenne meetings here on the
property and had some amazingbeautiful connections with
amazing beautiful people.
And some of those people havepassed on and left behind a
legacy of some of thesemedicines.
And I've had experience, youknow, with plant medicines, with
(17:08):
animal medicines, with comboand bufo that are toad and frog
medicines, that have some of thesame chemicals that some of the
plants have, and and again it alot.
Most of it, if not all of it,has to do with the intention and
the way you approach it, thethe people that you're working
(17:35):
with and how they're approachingit as to the true value you can
get from it.
And I've worked with a numberof different practitioners and
some of them were technicallygood but I didn't connect with
them.
I didn't feel that theirconnection with me was maybe
(18:00):
real or deep in a way that someof the others were.
I can't judge what theirconnection with the medicine was
, other than I just didn't feelthe same way.
And even though technicallythey did a good job, how they
acted before and after maybemade a difference.
You know, okay, we're done, Igot to go and rather than
(18:23):
spending time and integratingand, you know, being present and
all of that sort of thing.
You know it's hard, you can'treally judge somebody else, you
don't know where they are, whatthey've done, and that's part of
our lessons is to, you know, beopen and understanding and
forgiving and loving and all ofthat.
But in those situations I'vebeen able to let go and say,
(18:47):
well, I don't feel theconnection to the practitioner,
but I feel the connection to themedicine, so I will just work
with the medicine and let it dowhat it needs to do, and that's
how I've been able to keep myreverence together with it.
I know that, you know, withcannabis and some of the other
(19:12):
medicines that are recreationalas well, I know a lot of the
same people will go and you knowmushrooms or peyote or any of
these different medicines, andpeople will want to imbibe as
much as they can.
(19:32):
They want to go deeper anddeeper.
You know, just like when I ranmy dispensary, I'd have people
come and say give me thestrongest you got.
I just want the most, the mostI can get.
I want to go as far as I can,and that was the ambition rather
than, you know, let me connectwith this medicine, let me
connect with spirit, let healmyself.
(19:53):
I want to find healing um bigdifference.
And so I notice a lot of timesin different ceremonies, um
working with the right people,the right practitioners,
facilitators, shamans, medicinepeople whatever that the term
you want to use are.
(20:14):
There are generally people thatrun these things and they know
the songs and they know theprayers and they have the tools
to bring about the, the beautyand the value of the tradition.
And then there's other peoplethat you know they show up and
(20:36):
it's a party and you knowthey're there to you know get
high or get get, go on theirjourney, whatever they want to
call it, but they're the onesthat are disruptive.
They're the ones that'll sit atthe fire and be yapping to the
person next to or or being aspectacle in some way, and it
(20:59):
can diminish or distract fromthe people that are truly trying
to find healing.
And so these are things thatI've discovered, whether it's,
you know, false prophets, if youwill, practitioners that maybe
have their own agenda, maybeit's not as clean and pure as
(21:21):
you might want and hope, maybeit's the disruptive person or
the person who's sort of trying,or maybe they got something
else on their mind, maybethey're trying to hook up with
the cutie across the room.
Whatever it is, there's alwaysthese, you know, human issues at
stake.
(21:42):
Another piece of this puzzle isthe preparation and integration.
You know, a lot of times peoplewill say, oh, I'm going to do a
ceremony, whatever ayahuasca orpeyote or what you are whatever
, whatever your medicine ofchoice is but they might be
(22:02):
drinking or smoking weed, ordoing coke the day before, or
eating lousy food or, you know,just doing all the things that
are not what that medicine'sabout, and not honoring it with
a preparation, not not, um,preparing the body.
You know, the whether,regardless of where your
(22:26):
connection to spirit comes from,your body is a temple and
you're going to put thismedicine into your body.
What is?
What is it?
What is it that you're puttingit into?
You know you, did you just eata bunch of junk food?
Did you just drink a bunch ofwhiskey?
Did you just smoke a bunch ofweed?
Or do some coke?
Or meth or heroin or whatever?
(22:46):
It is your drug of choice andthat's still affecting you while
you're going to go and takethis sacred medicine.
Or are you preparing?
Are you giving yourself sometime to cleanse yourself and eat
well and maybe not do thethings that distract us and
(23:07):
cause us problems.
And then what about afterward?
Do you just jump right backinto your chaotic life and get
in a fight with your spouse andeat some shitty food and, you
know, jump right back onto yourphone and scroll all day long or
whatever it is that you do?
That is not healthy.
Are you doing that?
(23:27):
Or are you giving yourself sometime to sit with this medicine
and give it a chance to come inand do all it can do?
These are really importantelements to these medicines and
I just really wanted to sharethat experience.
I am just a guy who's on a path, trying to be the best person I
(23:50):
can be and trying to find myhealth and trying to get past
this cancer and be the bestperson I can be, and I'm not
chasing every medicine.
I'm not doing it because Ihaven't done it.
If it comes to me in a timewhen I feel that it's what I
need, when I need it, then Iopen the door.
(24:12):
But there's many medicines I'venot tried and I don't know if I
will.
It just depends on you know ifthey come to me when it's when
it's my time, so I just wantedto share these things with you,
and if you're considering goingdown a pathway to some of these
ethnobotanical indigenouspractices medicines, treatments,
(24:38):
ceremonies Take some time, sitwith it, start with the
meditation and see where itguides you, find somebody that
you know and trust, findsomebody that has been
positively affected by this andnot in a superficial way.
You know um you can tell, behonest, start owning your own
(25:06):
actions and your own words andyour own thoughts and be honest
about them, and then yourintuition starts to come alive
and opens the door for some ofthese better choices to happen.
All right, this has beenanother episode of the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and I thank you for all your
support and we will see you nexttime.
I don't know how to work with them in a sacred way
and I don't know that I want to.
The addictive nature of somethings are very difficult.
I recently reestablished arelationship with tobacco.
Now, tobacco is a very, verysacred plant and it's also very,
very abused and it's also very,very um, potentially dangerous
(00:26):
to a lot of people it when andif abused.
But if you work with the sacredside of it, in the sense of you
work with its true spirit, withreverence and in a sacred way,
I it's been used historically tocarry a prayer.
You know we're human beings andand you know it's funny I have
(00:52):
a lot of people in my life thatI've shared pretty deep
experiences with that arespiritual and vulnerable and my
connection to God, or source orspirit or creator, whatever,
jesus.
You know all the ways that weexpress our human experience of
(01:18):
something that is not human, oreven of this world for that
matter.
We live this three-dimensional,low vibrational life and even
the best of us are just.
We're animals and we got toreally be honest about that.
(01:40):
If you think about the natureof things in the universe and
the creative power that ismoving things, and again you can
believe what you want.
We all will do that.
But I believe there's acreative force in this universe
that causes everything to happenin a way that I'll never
(02:06):
probably understand, and for meto be stuck holding a name or a
face or a picture or an image ora set of words that applies to
everything as the be-all andend-all, in my opinion, is
limiting, and I know for many,many people it's good, it's
(02:31):
enough, and I suppose it couldbe enough for me as well.
But I believe in really theunlimited potential of the human
experience.
I believe we have inside of usthe very particles that is that
creative force, and that we haveinside of us the ability to
(02:53):
connect and become or be or useor express that part of us if we
figure out or let ourselves andI'm sort of rambling because
I'm talking about things I don'ttruly understand, but I've
experienced and connected withand felt and I know them to be
(03:15):
true on some level, even if Ican't articulate them, and I'm
just being honest about it.
I don't pretend I'm not ahypocrite about my faith and my
experience with what we calldivinity.
I do know this.
I have been around many, many,many, many people of many, many
(03:36):
different faiths and traditionsand I have found generally the
most hypocrisy in the peoplethat are the most refined in a
particular faith.
You know, christians inparticular.
(03:57):
I am a Christian on some level.
I believe in so many differentthings as to be true, but I
don't limit the experience tothat and say, well, that is the
only truth.
It is a truth that I canexperience and understand in
some way, and there are manytruths that I cannot understand.
(04:21):
And so when I walk with thesesacred plants, it's my attempt
to connect in a deeper way withthat same experience, that same
creative force, that samedivinity that caused everything
to happen in some way, a waythat I don't understand
necessarily, a way that I don'tunderstand necessarily.
(04:44):
And so, even a thing like thefire and I don't diminish that
on any level you know we look atfire as the grandfather, as the
source, the spirit.
You know we talk about the firein our heart, the fire in our
soul, the fire that is ourspirit.
(05:07):
And then you look at an actualfire and you go, wow, what a
connection.
You know, even the sacred heartof jesus has a fire in it.
There's a, there's an element,you know, and people say, well,
fire's an element, it's a lowvibrational, whatever but the
truth is we don't know, we don'tunderstand things.
I know I've spent many, many,many, many hours tending fire
(05:31):
and spending time just beingimmersed in the fire and I've
seen things that I cannotexplain.
I've gotten messages, I'vegotten clarity, I've gotten
feelings, I've gotten all sortsof things that I've gotten
messages, I've gotten clarity,I've gotten feelings, I've
gotten all sorts of things thatI've received and some might say
(05:52):
, well, you're connecting withdark spirits, or you're
connecting with something that'sdemonic, or you're connecting
with something that is not whatyou think it is.
And you know.
The truth is we don't know.
We don't know so many things,but I do know this.
(06:13):
About nine years ago I don'tknow seven, eight, nine years
ago, something like that a dearfriend came over to my house,
and this is a guy that was verychaotic.
He's a good guy but had a lotof drama in his life and was had
(06:34):
a very chaotic energy about himand was always all over the
place.
And one day he came to my houseand he was a different person.
He was transformed and he wascalm.
My house and he was a differentperson.
He was transformed and he wascalm and there was a warmth
about him that I never had seenbefore that way, and he told me
about this experience and he hadworked with a medicine man up
(07:00):
in Montana and he had done whathe called a peyote meeting in a
teepee and he shared with me avery small amount of this
greenish powder and said youknow, you try some, see what it
tastes like.
You know, see how you feel withit.
I just took the teeniest littlebit and I put it between my, my
(07:27):
cheek and gum and almostimmediately I felt it sort of
travel throughout my body andlike tingle, I felt my cells
sort of tingle, and it was verypositive, it was very light, it
was very bright as an energy andI said, wow, there's something
special here and I couldn'texplain it.
(07:49):
I didn't know what I wastapping into, I didn't know what
I was connecting with, but Iknew as a feeling, it was clear
and it was good.
It had my best interest in mindand I could feel that.
(08:12):
And I think that you know, ifwe're working with, with spirit
energy, that's where feelingscan really come in, because if
you're honest with yourself andyour intentions are to become
better, become healed, become abetter person, become more
loving.
Whatever it is that you'reseeking to do with these actions
(08:37):
that you're taking, whateverthey are, I think you know how
you feel against that intention.
I think you know how you feelagainst that intention and I
think, if something is dark ornot connected to God, spirit,
source, creator, whateverhowever you express that term I
(08:59):
think you feel it.
I think you really do, andthat's where accountability and
honesty comes into.
You know the sacred nature ofthese medicines.
So back to tobacco.
I had a 13 year runningaddiction with dip, copenhagen
snuff, whatever you want to callit, and I started when I was 13
(09:20):
years old and before I turned26,.
I was having dreams that mytongue was falling out and my
teeth were rotting and I wasgetting cancer just horrible
dreams.
I was like man.
I got to quit this and it wasthe hardest thing I ever did.
And ultimately I made a dealwith God and I had to rely upon
my faith to shoulder the burdenof this.
(09:44):
And I said, god, you know Ineed you.
If you can take this from me,I'll carry it, but I need you to
do it.
And I felt that we made a deal,that I would have the faith
that he would take that from meand in exchange I would receive
(10:07):
the blessing of the relief ofthis.
And it was the hardest thingI've ever done in my life aside
from this cancer, I never have anew hardest thing in my life,
but prior to that it was thehardest thing I've ever done and
battling an addiction that justdidn't want to let go and gave
(10:27):
up a little teeny bit every day.
Yeah, I mean by that I meanmaybe the cravings uh lasted a
fraction less and took afraction more before the next
one came, but over time itdiminished and it's now been 35
(10:52):
years, 33, 34 years, since I'veput a dip in my mouth and still,
every now and again I get alittle ache in my lip going, hey
, what about me?
And it'll never let go,probably.
But recently I became acquaintedwith Rappe or Rappe, and that
(11:14):
is a snuff that's blown up intoyour nose and it can be a blend
of tobacco and other herbs.
I've also worked with thetobacco smoke in the tipi.
So in that tradition for theprayer you'll roll tobacco into
a corn husk and smoke it, butgenerally you smoke it like a
(11:40):
cigar.
You're not inhaling it and I'veeven allowed myself to smoke a
cigar, very in a very specialplace.
I will acknowledge thesacredness of the tobacco and
(12:03):
enjoy it in a reverent way andone time in a very special time.
So I've allowed myself toreconnect with this plant in a
different light than I did whenI was dipping.
And when I was dipping it wasjust a need, it was an addiction
(12:24):
, it was a drug and I just putit in and kept it in my mouth
all day long and it was just abad, bad experience.
It was just a bad, badexperience.
But now, and with Rappe, mostof the time I pass when it is
passed around in ceremony,occasionally I will do it and
(12:47):
when I do I request just thesmallest, smallest amount, and
when I do it I receive it and Iconnect with the Spirit on a
prayerful plane and I use it asa guide, a tool to help me focus
my intention in my prayer, andI believe I'm able to work with
(13:15):
it in a way that um isn'tbringing the addiction back.
I don't have a desire, a deeperdesire, to go out and buy a can
of copenhagen or anything likeI did before.
So I'm happy about that.
What I'm seeing a lot you knowwith with social media and this
new, I don't know superficialfreak show that we are in.
(13:41):
You know Burning man and allthe bullshit festivals and all
this stuff.
And it's not to say that therearen't good things in these
things.
You know all the new ageshamans, all the.
(14:04):
You know all the wellnessretreats and all the exploitive
situations.
And you know it's just humannature.
People find a thing that's good, that helps a person, and they
maybe start out as a you a goodnotion.
I know I could help more people, but then people come to you
and you know they start suckingup to you because you have a
(14:25):
thing they want.
You know, for many, many years II had the good pot and I
learned the hard way that peoplewould exploit you to get what
you have and lead you to believethings were ways that they
weren't and give, put you up ona pedestal and treat you
differently.
And you know, no matter who youare, you kind of fall into it
(14:49):
to some degree.
No matter, you know you stayhumble, whatever.
But it's like a drug, you know.
And when people come up to youand say how great you are and
this wonderful thing you haveand they treat you so nice and
well.
They want to put money in yourhand and and honor you for
whatever.
Um, it's hard to turn away fromthat and go.
(15:14):
Well, that's bullshit.
I'm just you, I'm just adifferent other person, even
though you know that to be trueand it's it's.
It's a slippery slope and Iknow a lot of people find their
way, especially when sex isinvolved.
You know, a lot of people areyoung and pretty and they
(15:34):
connect with older people thathave needs and resources, and
I've seen a lot of people takeadvantage of a lot of situations
in the name of healing and inthe name of these plant
medicines and it's to me, youknow, the false idols of the old
(15:59):
testament.
You know it's that kind ofthing it's.
It's not the same connection,even though the tools that
they're using are the very sametools that the true healers are
using, and that's where kind ofI'm at right now.
(16:20):
We created the Gardens of Hope.
We spent 30 years building thisgarden and we've worked with
people from all over the worldin the last 30 years and we've
worked with different spiritualtraditions, we've worked with
prayer groups, we've worked withall sorts of different plant
medicines and healers and wehave a teepee and we've run
(16:43):
Navajo and Arapaho NorthernCheyenne meetings here on the
property and had some amazingbeautiful connections with
amazing beautiful people.
And some of those people havepassed on and left behind a
legacy of some of thesemedicines.
And I've had experience, youknow, with plant medicines, with
(17:08):
animal medicines, with comboand bufo that are toad and frog
medicines, that have some of thesame chemicals that some of the
plants have, and and again it alot.
Most of it, if not all of it,has to do with the intention and
the way you approach it, thethe people that you're working
(17:35):
with and how they're approachingit as to the true value you can
get from it.
And I've worked with a numberof different practitioners and
some of them were technicallygood but I didn't connect with
them.
I didn't feel that theirconnection with me was maybe
(18:00):
real or deep in a way that someof the others were.
I can't judge what theirconnection with the medicine was
, other than I just didn't feelthe same way.
And even though technicallythey did a good job, how they
acted before and after maybemade a difference.
You know, okay, we're done, Igot to go and rather than
(18:23):
spending time and integratingand, you know, being present and
all of that sort of thing.
You know it's hard, you can'treally judge somebody else, you
don't know where they are, whatthey've done, and that's part of
our lessons is to, you know, beopen and understanding and
forgiving and loving and all ofthat.
But in those situations I'vebeen able to let go and say,
(18:47):
well, I don't feel theconnection to the practitioner,
but I feel the connection to themedicine, so I will just work
with the medicine and let it dowhat it needs to do, and that's
how I've been able to keep myreverence together with it.
I know that, you know, withcannabis and some of the other
(19:12):
medicines that are recreationalas well, I know a lot of the
same people will go and you knowmushrooms or peyote or any of
these different medicines, andpeople will want to imbibe as
much as they can.
(19:32):
They want to go deeper anddeeper.
You know, just like when I ranmy dispensary, I'd have people
come and say give me thestrongest you got.
I just want the most, the mostI can get.
I want to go as far as I can,and that was the ambition rather
than, you know, let me connectwith this medicine, let me
connect with spirit, let healmyself.
(19:53):
I want to find healing um bigdifference.
And so I notice a lot of timesin different ceremonies, um
working with the right people,the right practitioners,
facilitators, shamans, medicinepeople whatever that the term
you want to use are.
(20:14):
There are generally people thatrun these things and they know
the songs and they know theprayers and they have the tools
to bring about the, the beautyand the value of the tradition.
And then there's other peoplethat you know they show up and
(20:36):
it's a party and you knowthey're there to you know get
high or get get, go on theirjourney, whatever they want to
call it, but they're the onesthat are disruptive.
They're the ones that'll sit atthe fire and be yapping to the
person next to or or being aspectacle in some way, and it
(20:59):
can diminish or distract fromthe people that are truly trying
to find healing.
And so these are things thatI've discovered, whether it's,
you know, false prophets, if youwill, practitioners that maybe
have their own agenda, maybeit's not as clean and pure as
(21:21):
you might want and hope, maybeit's the disruptive person or
the person who's sort of trying,or maybe they got something
else on their mind, maybethey're trying to hook up with
the cutie across the room.
Whatever it is, there's alwaysthese, you know, human issues at
stake.
(21:42):
Another piece of this puzzle isthe preparation and integration.
You know, a lot of times peoplewill say, oh, I'm going to do a
ceremony, whatever ayahuasca orpeyote or what you are whatever
, whatever your medicine ofchoice is but they might be
(22:02):
drinking or smoking weed, ordoing coke the day before, or
eating lousy food or, you know,just doing all the things that
are not what that medicine'sabout, and not honoring it with
a preparation, not not, um,preparing the body.
You know, the whether,regardless of where your
(22:26):
connection to spirit comes from,your body is a temple and
you're going to put thismedicine into your body.
What is?
What is it?
What is it that you're puttingit into?
You know you, did you just eata bunch of junk food?
Did you just drink a bunch ofwhiskey?
Did you just smoke a bunch ofweed?
Or do some coke?
Or meth or heroin or whatever?
(22:46):
It is your drug of choice andthat's still affecting you while
you're going to go and takethis sacred medicine.
Or are you preparing?
Are you giving yourself sometime to cleanse yourself and eat
well and maybe not do thethings that distract us and
(23:07):
cause us problems.
And then what about afterward?
Do you just jump right backinto your chaotic life and get
in a fight with your spouse andeat some shitty food and, you
know, jump right back onto yourphone and scroll all day long or
whatever it is that you do?
That is not healthy.
Are you doing that?
(23:27):
Or are you giving yourself sometime to sit with this medicine
and give it a chance to come inand do all it can do?
These are really importantelements to these medicines and
I just really wanted to sharethat experience.
I am just a guy who's on a path, trying to be the best person I
(23:50):
can be and trying to find myhealth and trying to get past
this cancer and be the bestperson I can be, and I'm not
chasing every medicine.
I'm not doing it because Ihaven't done it.
If it comes to me in a timewhen I feel that it's what I
need, when I need it, then Iopen the door.
(24:12):
But there's many medicines I'venot tried and I don't know if I
will.
It just depends on you know ifthey come to me when it's when
it's my time, so I just wantedto share these things with you,
and if you're considering goingdown a pathway to some of these
ethnobotanical indigenouspractices medicines, treatments,
(24:38):
ceremonies Take some time, sitwith it, start with the
meditation and see where itguides you, find somebody that
you know and trust, findsomebody that has been
positively affected by this andnot in a superficial way.
You know um you can tell, behonest, start owning your own
(25:06):
actions and your own words andyour own thoughts and be honest
about them, and then yourintuition starts to come alive
and opens the door for some ofthese better choices to happen.
All right, this has beenanother episode of the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and I thank you for all your
support and we will see you nexttime.
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