September 30, 2025 • 32 mins
What do you do when the experts say “lifelong” and offer little beyond wait-and-see? We sit down with Dr. Theresa Lyons—a Yale-trained computational chemist and mom to a child once diagnosed with profound autism—who chose a different path: translate research into action and build a community that makes doing the right next thing possible. Theresa shares how she moved from drug discovery and global health to PubMed deep dives, contacting researchers directly, and assembling a care team that addressed real health load: gut function, immune balance, sleep, and sensory regulation.
Across our conversation, we break down why autism is still diagnosed by observation, which pitfalls to rule out first (like hearing issues in toddlers), and how “optimal outcomes” reframed what progress can look like. We dig into the gut–immune–brain loop, the mechanisms behind gluten-driven permeability, and why understanding the “how” turns diets and supplements from guesswork into targeted experiments. Theresa also spotlights a hot topic in the field—folinic acid (leucovorin)—and how folate transport issues and antibodies at the choroid plexus can make language gains possible for some kids. The message is not hype; it’s a method: find the mechanism, test the hypothesis, track the result.
We open the doors to the Navigating Autism platform, where families worldwide get structure, small-group support, health coaching, and access to functional testing options. Seven categories guide the journey—healthcare, diet, supplements, probiotics, education strategies, mindset, and celebration—so nothing essential gets missed and progress compounds. Teresa’s personal story, plus a moving family case, shows what can change when parents have a plan and a team. And her reframe from “autism” to “AWEtism” reminds us that determination and dignity are not soft ideas; they’re fuel.
If this conversation gave you clarity or hope, tap follow, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find science they can use. Your next step might be one small change—and we’re here to help you take it.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine.
And today we've got a veryspecial guest.
Her name's Dr.
Teresa Lyons.
And uh Dr.
Lyons works with families inmore than 21 countries.
And uh these are people that arelooking for trustworthy
(00:23):
science-based guidance onraising and supporting autistic
children.
And she's created a program ofnavigating autism, and that's
spelled AWE.
She focuses on helping familiestransform overwhelm into
practical steps they can use,whether it's interpreting lab
results, navigating schoolchallenges, or finding out which
(00:46):
wellness strategies actuallyhave a scientific backing.
Well, Teresa, without going anyfurther into that, I just love
to jump into a conversation.
I want to welcome you to theshow.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
Thank you very much.
I'm doing fantastic.
Happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Wonderful, wonderful.
So it sounds to me like yourstory came to you.
Um, you know, yeah.
Very true.
Your case, it was prettystraightforward.
(01:23):
Why don't you get into that alittle bit?
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Yeah, it this totally came to me.
This is all everything I'm doingright now, pretty much is
nothing that I ever planned orthought about doing or anything
like that.
So I had uh my daughter, and shewas about three and a half years
old when she was diagnosed withautism.
And um, at that time, I hadnever worked in autism before.
(01:49):
I have worked in the healthcareindustry.
So I have a PhD in computationalchemistry from Yale.
I I'm I'm a chemist through andthrough.
So theoretical chemistry,physical, like organic chemistry
type.
Um, and and that's what I wasdoing.
So I was focused on on health,um, but never in the autism
(02:11):
space.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
This is a whole different side of the spectrum
there.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, no, and I'm doing like drug discovery.
So you know, I started, youknow, understanding how
molecules are interacting withproteins and you know, so very
granular.
And um then I did transitionmore and more onto the business
side, so understandingmarketing, and then I also
worked for nonprofits in thehealthcare space, um, working
(02:37):
with developing countries anddevelop delivering healthcare to
them.
So I've I've been focused onhealthcare my my entire career.
Um, but then when my daughterwas diagnosed with autism,
that's when really everythingchanged.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
So, what brought you to um this diagnosis?
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
My daughter was not developing um, it wasn't a
surprise.
Uh, so when she was uhdiagnosed, it was of the more
profound autism type.
So not speaking, not pointing,not smiling, not playing.
Um it it was it still wasdevastating, and I certainly
(03:18):
needed a period to to grieve thechanges as to kind of what life
was gonna be.
Um but that's that's that's howthis all started with that
diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
So you went from sort of recognizing that
something doesn't seem to beright to okay, now we know what
it is, I gotta deal with it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
Right.
And so then with all thishealthcare background that I
have, I was just like, okay, sowhat do we do?
You know, like what's what areour options?
And and there there really wasnone.
I was told, you know, this is alifelong diagnosis.
Um, things are really gonna getharder, not easier.
(04:01):
Um, and there's there's minimalthings to do.
And it it just really wasn't asatisfying answer for for anyone
to be told a loved one, like,this is it, you know, like
there's nothing you can do.
That's not many people are gonnajust accept that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
So, as a point of reference, um, how old is your
daughter now?
She's 15.
Oh, okay, okay.
So this is this is about 12, 13years ago.
Correct.
Yeah, okay, perfect.
All right, so things were alittle different back then.
Um and and I think that um myexperience, not having raised an
(04:41):
autistic child, but working withsome um through our programs,
there's become uh a very least amuch um more profound
recognition of the situation.
You know, it's like weird.
I don't like to call it adisease or anything like that.
It's a it's a condition.
(05:03):
It's uh, you know, now they callit neurodivergent.
They've got all these terms thatthey use for what it is.
Now it's a spectrum, it's likeit's all these different things
where you know, like back in theold days, they just say, you got
this, and and now it's like,well, okay, well, you're
somewhere in this range ofthings that can happen now.
(05:26):
I think there's a lot more, Idon't know, at least
understanding of of thesituation, maybe a little
better.
SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
Well, the the issue stems from the diagnosis, so
there is no blood test or urinetest or MRI, there's no
definitive piece of paper thathas some kind of number tied to
your child's body that says thisis autism, exactly.
And so then it's so like that'show it is.
(05:59):
Yeah, it it gets yeah, it's it'svery frustrating that way, and
so that's why I think there areso many terms for it, it being
autism, because it can look sodifferently, right?
So, how do you use one word todescribe many things?
It's very difficult that way.
Um so yeah, I think that's wherea lot of the ambiguity comes
(06:23):
from.
When when you get a diagnosisfor autism, it's based upon
observations.
So usually you have uh reportsfrom like a speech therapist and
an occupational therapist and aphysical therapist, and you're
looking at all the differentdelays and the difficulties um
and what's really impactinglife.
That's really what makes anautism diagnosis is that it
(06:43):
impacts daily living.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Um and that's it's it's all based on observation,
so that's well, and they alsohave to determine that like a
lot of the if you will, symptomsof autism have are sensory, and
so you have to determine thatthe senses are physiologically
(07:08):
functioning, like you know, achild could have a uh a hearing
impediment, and that coulddramatically affect how they act
that might have nothing to dowith their processes, 100%.
Yep, yeah, at the same time,they could have no problem and
act like there's a problem, andyou know, so at a two one
(07:32):
two-year-old child where thecommunication isn't clear, you
know, you don't have languagethe same way you do as a you
know, eight or ten-year-oldchild, it's a lot more difficult
to sort of figure out, you know,how yeah, it's it's very true.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
And the hearing aspect, like that's one thing.
So, so many times doctors say,okay, let's try and rule things
out before we just say it'sautism, right?
So hearing is one thing.
And for for kids who areyounger, there's different tests
to do, and there's specializedum, you know, hearing labs to go
(08:13):
into.
Um, you can even get a procedureif the the child won't sit still
or even like pay attention tocertain things.
Hearing tests can be done underanesthesia.
So there are all these things toto do to kind of eliminate that
because that is a hundredpercent accurate.
Sometimes it's a hearing issue,not necessarily a developmental
(08:34):
issue.
Um, and then the hearing getsresolved and it it ends up not
being an autism diagnosis.
But that's that's what doctorswant to see beforehand before
doing and giving an autismdiagnosis.
They they usually want to bevery thorough, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
So now you've got this diagnosis, and basically
they're like, Well, it's gonnasuck to be you.
I mean, like they're not reallygiving you like a uh a series of
strategies, or you know, there'sall these programs available,
there's all these um, you know,mentors, or you know, there's
not like all these resources foryou.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah, it and it was really more like, especially
because I'm coming from thehealthcare industry where I was
helping uh create um educationprograms for doctors to stay up
to date in different oncologyprotocols, right?
So, like if you have oncology,then it's you do certain tests,
you identify certain markers,you go after them.
(09:35):
Like there's a whole strategyand plan.
And with autism, there wasn't.
So then I started just goinginto PubMed because that's as a
scientist, that's it's like, allright, let me know.
There you go.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:48):
Yeah.
Who's who's doing the research?
What does the research set say?
I'm not gonna wait 30 yearsbecause typically that's what it
takes to go from you know, aPubMed article takes 30 years
for it to trickle down to yourlike um general pediatrician's
office or you know, specialistand things like that.
No, not at all, especially whenI have the knowledge, right?
(10:11):
Like I know I have been doingthis professionally in different
therapeutic areas, so it was allright, let me let me just go to
PubMed.
And then I started building uh ahealthcare team for my daughter
based upon the doctors who weredoing that research so that I
could get in front of the peoplewho knew what they were doing.
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
So when you when you jumped into PubMed, I'm I'm uh
overcoming a very aggressivecancer right now, and I've spent
a lot of time in PubMed, and I'meducating my doctors about what
needs to be done so that I'mgetting the treatment I need.
So I know exactly where you'reat when it comes to that.
You know, I'm the world'sforemost expert on my condition
(10:51):
because I want to live a long,long, healthy life.
And going down that road, Iwasn't gonna get there.
And because they're like yousaid, they're 20 years behind
time or more.
And um, so tell me what did youdiscover?
Like, you know, when you'redealing with PubMed, you're
dealing with case studies, um,clinical trials, you're dealing
(11:12):
with, you know, all ranges ofscience.
You know, people go, oh, it'sscience, you know.
You don't know what science is,it goes through all these
different, you know, degrees ofof trial and error and study and
peer review, and and um, youknow, there's all these many,
many levels before it becomesaccepted.
(11:33):
Um, and so on PubMed, like yousaid, you can find a a wide
range of of uh levels ofscience.
So, what did you find?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I would say the one of the first things that kind of
really shook my perspective onon everything was um different
studies throughout the yearshowing that autism diagnosis
does not have to be permanent.
Nice, yeah, and so then it is,yeah.
(12:04):
Yeah, and so back back then itused to be called an optimal
outcome.
And so they would say umballpark, it was around 10% of
kids with autism lost theirdiagnosis and had an optimal
outcome, meaning they didn'tneed any more speech therapy or
OT or you know, help in school,and they were making friends and
(12:25):
they're talking like they'rejust living their life.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah, 10%'s a good chunk, right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
And then in 2023, so that that was the information
that you know, real I latched onto and said, all right, 10.
Like, you know, getting intoYale is harder than 10.
So I can 10 is good, I can dothat.
That's I'm not afraid for thatnumber.
So then that's really whatfocused me and said, All right,
there's I've got to put a lot ofattention, I've really got to
(12:54):
understand, because you know,that's a big change in my
daughter's life.
Um, so it was really getting toknow the science.
What are they doing?
What are what are the the healthissues that are you know causing
different sensory issues?
What are health issues that arecausing um you know digestive
(13:15):
issues, right?
So just really understanding theissues my daughter was having.
But then once you go down thatscientific rabbit hole, you know
you have to understand everyperspective.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
There's a it's a lifetime's worth of learning in
there.
I mean, there's so manydifferent nuances in the limited
experience I have.
I'm like, wow, this is just likeendless.
Manifestations of this of thiscondition can go, you know,
wildly from a kid that can onlyeat, you know, red soft food to,
(13:46):
you know, I mean, there's allthese just like it goes in all
directions, every which way, howit can manifest.
And you're gonna have to havesome kind of understanding, or
at least of the at least of thethe way that it happens, like
maybe all the differentmanifestations you can collect
into a pathway that says, well,this probably came from this,
(14:09):
and then you can sort ofunderstand how it got there.
SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Yeah, so it's like weaving a tapestry of all this
information.
So just because you know, I'mlearning something about sensory
issues that many times are it'sconnected to digestive issues,
right?
Right, which then is connectedto neurotransmitters, which loop
in the brain, right?
So it's like nothing was reallyisolated, and that was the thing
(14:36):
where I really had to study andmake sure I didn't say, Oh,
well, she's not having thisproblem.
I don't need to know about this.
SPEAKER_00 (14:43):
It was no, I need to know about right, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Especially as we're learningmore about the gut, and it's you
know, widespread uh connectionto everything physiological, you
know.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Yeah, and and even something so simple as like
gluten, right?
So, like really understandingthe mechanism of action, not
listening to like you know, whatwhat I don't know, some article
on like Yahoo or something likethat, but like getting into the
science, like let me reallyunderstand this, and
understanding how gluten themechanism of action, how it
(15:18):
impacts everyone.
And so, yeah, it does make thegut more permeable for
everybody, right?
And so the the gut becomes morepermeable, things get let out
into the body that normallywouldn't.
The immune system comes andcleans it up, and typically in
like 20 minutes or so, a healthyperson can you know eat the
(15:39):
gluten, uh, you know, have thatimmune kind of cleanup and
nothing is impacted.
But when someone has pressure ontheir immune system and it's
being overworked for some otherreason, then that's where
something like gluten can reallybecome problematic.
And not just in the gut, but thecentral nervous system is highly
(16:00):
protected, but gluten also makesthat more permeable.
So I looked into pharmaceuticalcompanies who were studying
drugs to pass the blood-brainbarrier by tagging a molecule
that looked like gluten.
So pharma was trying tomanipulate this and say, okay,
we know how to make things morepermeable.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And that was like, oh, okay, I'm really
understanding why something likegluten could have an impact on
someone who has so much otherlike health issues going on, so
it's just and then there's allthese other lectins that are
similar to gluten that can havea similar problem.
And so there's yeah, I mean, youknow, it keeps going on and on.
(16:45):
So so let's jump into your yourautism program.
It sounds like um, you know,you've gotten you're getting an
understanding of of what they'relearning and these mechanisms
that are you know having impacton the situation.
And and so now you're like,okay, well, I gotta come up with
a program.
You're meeting the scientiststhat are involved, you're
(17:07):
creating sort of a network, ateam.
Let's let's how how's it goingfrom there?
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
So it it snowballed into okay, I came up to speed on
a literature, I identifiedreally great cutting-edge
doctors to work with.
We had really good appointments,and we would kind of be able to
have discussions, and then thesedoctors were the ones who said
you really need to starteducating others, right?
(17:34):
And that was not my plan.
And I was like, Oh, um, no.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Doctor recognizes the value of you know, uh a
program like that, that'spowerful because usually they're
busy going, shh, I don't know, Idon't know, I got too many
things I'm trying to do.
SPEAKER_01 (17:50):
Yeah, well, but but but again, my my academic and my
business training all taught mehow to interact with these
really busy physicians, how toget them to give my daughter the
best care.
Uh, and so then they encouragedme to start teaching others.
So I started with a blog, andthen uh I have a YouTube
channel, and that's actually 10years old now.
(18:13):
Um, and so what I would do was Iwould take these concepts um
relating to autism and thescience, and then I would just
turn it into a simple video thatwould teach parents.
And so it really started as letme just make this information as
accessible as possible.
And then parents wanted to startto work with me directly.
(18:35):
Um, and so now what we have iscalled the navigating autism
platform, and we have sevencategories where parents can
progress through and make surethey don't miss anything.
So there's lots to do withhealthcare, there's lots to do
with diet and supplements,probiotics.
There's also the parents'mindset because this is a long
(18:58):
journey.
SPEAKER_02 (18:59):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Many parents are diagnosed with PTSD when their
kids are in their teenage yearsjust because of all the stress.
So it's really important for usto work with parents and teach
them that this is a stressfulsituation and how do you take
care of yourself as well.
Um then education.
There's a lot of research goingon in education and what's the
(19:22):
best way to educate someone whohas autism.
So we work with parents on that,and then also celebrating.
Um, so we have health coachesthat work on the platform.
We put parents into small grouppods so they have that sense of
community.
They meet with their healthcoach, they have um chats
throughout the month, and um,the parents can also order
(19:43):
functional medicine testingthrough the platform, get the
information, and then we teachthem where to find good doctors.
They choose who they want towork with, and then we also help
them create agendas and how doyou keep everything tracking and
moving along?
So that's what we cover in theplatform.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
So it sounds like um, you know, anytime somebody
talks about a program like this,community to me is really
important.
Um, I know that for a parent,you know, we've worked with a
number of parents that aredealing with this, and you know,
there's this sort of nobodyunderstands, you know, I'm I you
(20:22):
can't you can't possibly, it'slike any major situation,
whether it's cancer or autism orany major disease or injury,
it's like so overwhelming.
Like, how could anybody possiblyunderstand what I'm going
through?
But the truth is many, many,many people share that same
experience.
(20:42):
And when you can bring thosepeople together, it's really
powerful.
And uh, I always think thatthat's one of the actually
that's the reason I do thispodcast is to create this, you
know, sort of all-encompassing,healthy, living-minded community
where people can find aconnection to whatever is their,
(21:03):
you know, their issue orwhatever it is they're trying to
work at.
And it works, you know, youbuild bring people together.
Um, so you is this regional oris it virtual or both, or you
don't know?
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
It's virtual, so it's virtual, and we work all
over the world.
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
Nice.
So you you you get somebodywho's got a situation over in
Georgia, and they might betalking to somebody in England
or some anywhere in the world,and and still sharing a similar
experience.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
Yeah, I love that.
Definitely.
And so, how many people um havebeen have are participating at
any given time in this program?
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
We can expand to to accommodate.
So we don't have uh limits atall.
Um, the learning is on theplatform, so there's an element
of self-learning, and then uminteracting with the health
coaches and me.
I certainly love uh working withthe parents on science.
Um, so there's no capacitylimit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
So, how how is the science developing?
Like, you know, I know thatthey're recognizing all
different elements and you know,they're identifying maybe
mechanisms.
You know, the brain is such anamazing organ and and kind of
almost uh insulting to just tocall it an organ because it's so
(22:25):
much more than that.
And uh, you know, withneuroplasticity and all the
different, you know,capabilities that the brain has
to rewire itself and to healitself and to correct problems,
um, you know, what is the newdevelopments with on that level?
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Well, specifically to the brain and kind of
something that's been a hottopic now, uh, would be
something called Leucovorin,which is the prescription um B9
and folinic acid.
And the the reason why it's it'sreally uh profound that this has
(23:09):
become such a hot topic is thesense that the reason why
Lucovorin in certain kids withautism is so impactful and can
increase speech so much isbecause there's antibodies in
the brain that's blocking thisvitamin from being utilized.
And so that really we it goesback to the beginning of our
(23:30):
conversation where autism,there's there's no lab test or
anything to do, right?
I think we're getting closer andcloser to having some hopefully
typical tests to do when you getthat initial question of, oh, is
there something going on with mychild?
So that's like where the fieldis going towards.
(23:52):
Um, we're definitely not thereyet, but it's good to see that
doctors are starting to reallyunderstand and communicate the
different issues that are goingon in the body health-wise, that
can really make a difference inthe child's life and the
parents' lives.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
I love that.
So, how how is your daughter?
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
She's great, she's in high school.
SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Um, and she's yes, she's she's how how has this all
of this work you've done, youknow, how do you see uh I know
it's not really a quantifiableuh question, but you know, how
do you how much of an impact doyou think you've had?
Like had you not done all thiswork and discovered all these
(24:39):
things, where do you think she'dhave been compared to where she
is now?
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
She'd be in a very, very different place.
Um, so if I didn't address a lotof her health concerns, um just
her quality of life and and herlife expectancy would be very,
very low.
So I it's compl it's acompletely different life.
I have no regrets whatsoever ofall the time I spent in PubMed
(25:08):
and and just the different lifethat I have now as a result.
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
I was gonna say, I'm sure you've benefited
dramatically from it as well.
Definitely a lot of my guests Ilike to ask, you know, about a
particular um story that wasimpactful.
Obviously, your daughter andyours is the most impactful
story to you, but aside fromthat one, can you share a story
with us of somebody who yourprogram has affected in a really
(25:36):
dramatic way?
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Sure.
There's many stories.
Um, one that comes to mind is uhof a dad and his son.
Um he you know wasn't speaking,it was really difficult, um, not
sleeping at night.
Um the child was very difficult,so no one really wanted to watch
him.
So the parents, both parentskind of had to come home from
(26:00):
work at all different times.
Um, and as they startedresolving health issues, um it's
a completely different child.
He can get his hair cut, right?
No problem.
He's now in um Taekwondo.
And so his dad, you know, sendsme emails and saying, like, oh,
(26:21):
look at what we're doing now.
What do we do?
Like, you know, and so they'rejust able to have those family
moments that we all as parentskind of took for granted,
thinking that was justguaranteed, and it it's not.
So um, those tender moments arereally important for you know,
father, son, and for family.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
I love that.
Well, Teresa, um, this is sortof that time I'd like to give
you a chance to wrap everythingup into sort of a parting
thought and uh share with ourlisteners.
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
Sure.
So if if parents orgrandparents, we also work with
grandparents, if uh anyone isreally wanting to understand how
they can help their child obtainoptimal health and really
understand all the differentcutting-edge research that's
going on in autism, our platformis made perfectly for that.
(27:17):
Um, you'll get communitysupport, you get expert people
to interact with, and um, youcan also order the tests so that
you can get an understanding ofyourself as to what are the real
health concerns.
Um, and the platform for anyonein the US, we also accept
flexible spending.
So we make it as affordable andas uh easy as possible for
(27:41):
parents to join and really getthe support and information that
they need.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
Wow, that's powerful.
And uh maybe as important, howdoes somebody access this
platform?
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
Sure.
So you can find me at uhnavigatingautism.com.
Um, you can also find me andautism.
We didn't even get to talk aboutthat.
Why I spell it differently.
SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
All right, well, let's get yourself a chance to
talk about that.
You know, you you A-W-E-T-I-S-M.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Yep, it's it's spelled differently.
So I hated the word autism.
I will hated seeing my daughterbe in such agony and not be able
to do anything in life, and itlife was extremely difficult.
So that word autism, I didn'teven like saying it.
I would say, oh, she's on thespectrum.
(28:29):
Like I would just avoid it.
And then as I started to learnthe science, and as I got to see
like how determined she was whenshe had, you know, like
headaches and stomach aches, andshe was still getting up and
going to school, getting up,going on a little adventures
with me.
Like she wanted to be part oflife so much that that's when I
(28:50):
started to see the awe in that,where it's like, wow, she's just
so determined.
So I've got to do whatever I canso that she can do what she
wants to do in life becauseshe's working so hard at it.
So that's when autism became theautism.
And I looked at her sodifferently, and just yeah, so
(29:13):
that's what I hope to also helpparents see is just that
powerful, powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Well, why don't you share that uh that website again
so that way um it doesn't getlost in the in this great little
story?
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
Sure.
So it's navigatingautism.com, sonavigating N-A-V-I-G-A-T-I-N-G
A-W-E-T-S M.com.
And um, I also have a YouTubechannel, so uh same thing,
navigating autism.
Uh, if you just put my name inautism, lots of things will pop
(29:47):
up on YouTube and Instagram.
Um, we also have another websitethat has more of a blog, and
that's aw e t I S M.net.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Beautiful.
All right.
Well, Dr.
Lyons, it's a pleasure.
And I I really have enjoyed thisconversation.
And my invitation to return andgo deep into any of these topics
is open.
And I just want to thank you forbeing here.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Sure.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
Awesome.
This has been another edition ofthe Healthy Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumba, and Iwant to thank all of our
listeners for making thispossible.
And we will see you next time.
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine.
And today we've got a veryspecial guest.
Her name's Dr.
Teresa Lyons.
And uh Dr.
Lyons works with families inmore than 21 countries.
And uh these are people that arelooking for trustworthy
(00:23):
science-based guidance onraising and supporting autistic
children.
And she's created a program ofnavigating autism, and that's
spelled AWE.
She focuses on helping familiestransform overwhelm into
practical steps they can use,whether it's interpreting lab
results, navigating schoolchallenges, or finding out which
(00:46):
wellness strategies actuallyhave a scientific backing.
Well, Teresa, without going anyfurther into that, I just love
to jump into a conversation.
I want to welcome you to theshow.
How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01 (00:58):
Thank you very much.
I'm doing fantastic.
Happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Wonderful, wonderful.
So it sounds to me like yourstory came to you.
Um, you know, yeah.
Very true.
Your case, it was prettystraightforward.
(01:23):
Why don't you get into that alittle bit?
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Yeah, it this totally came to me.
This is all everything I'm doingright now, pretty much is
nothing that I ever planned orthought about doing or anything
like that.
So I had uh my daughter, and shewas about three and a half years
old when she was diagnosed withautism.
And um, at that time, I hadnever worked in autism before.
(01:49):
I have worked in the healthcareindustry.
So I have a PhD in computationalchemistry from Yale.
I I'm I'm a chemist through andthrough.
So theoretical chemistry,physical, like organic chemistry
type.
Um, and and that's what I wasdoing.
So I was focused on on health,um, but never in the autism
(02:11):
space.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
This is a whole different side of the spectrum
there.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, no, and I'm doing like drug discovery.
So you know, I started, youknow, understanding how
molecules are interacting withproteins and you know, so very
granular.
And um then I did transitionmore and more onto the business
side, so understandingmarketing, and then I also
worked for nonprofits in thehealthcare space, um, working
(02:37):
with developing countries anddevelop delivering healthcare to
them.
So I've I've been focused onhealthcare my my entire career.
Um, but then when my daughterwas diagnosed with autism,
that's when really everythingchanged.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
So, what brought you to um this diagnosis?
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
My daughter was not developing um, it wasn't a
surprise.
Uh, so when she was uhdiagnosed, it was of the more
profound autism type.
So not speaking, not pointing,not smiling, not playing.
Um it it was it still wasdevastating, and I certainly
(03:18):
needed a period to to grieve thechanges as to kind of what life
was gonna be.
Um but that's that's that's howthis all started with that
diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
So you went from sort of recognizing that
something doesn't seem to beright to okay, now we know what
it is, I gotta deal with it.
SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
Right.
And so then with all thishealthcare background that I
have, I was just like, okay, sowhat do we do?
You know, like what's what areour options?
And and there there really wasnone.
I was told, you know, this is alifelong diagnosis.
Um, things are really gonna getharder, not easier.
(04:01):
Um, and there's there's minimalthings to do.
And it it just really wasn't asatisfying answer for for anyone
to be told a loved one, like,this is it, you know, like
there's nothing you can do.
That's not many people are gonnajust accept that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
So, as a point of reference, um, how old is your
daughter now?
She's 15.
Oh, okay, okay.
So this is this is about 12, 13years ago.
Correct.
Yeah, okay, perfect.
All right, so things were alittle different back then.
Um and and I think that um myexperience, not having raised an
(04:41):
autistic child, but working withsome um through our programs,
there's become uh a very least amuch um more profound
recognition of the situation.
You know, it's like weird.
I don't like to call it adisease or anything like that.
It's a it's a condition.
(05:03):
It's uh, you know, now they callit neurodivergent.
They've got all these terms thatthey use for what it is.
Now it's a spectrum, it's likeit's all these different things
where you know, like back in theold days, they just say, you got
this, and and now it's like,well, okay, well, you're
somewhere in this range ofthings that can happen now.
(05:26):
I think there's a lot more, Idon't know, at least
understanding of of thesituation, maybe a little
better.
SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
Well, the the issue stems from the diagnosis, so
there is no blood test or urinetest or MRI, there's no
definitive piece of paper thathas some kind of number tied to
your child's body that says thisis autism, exactly.
And so then it's so like that'show it is.
(05:59):
Yeah, it it gets yeah, it's it'svery frustrating that way, and
so that's why I think there areso many terms for it, it being
autism, because it can look sodifferently, right?
So, how do you use one word todescribe many things?
It's very difficult that way.
Um so yeah, I think that's wherea lot of the ambiguity comes
(06:23):
from.
When when you get a diagnosisfor autism, it's based upon
observations.
So usually you have uh reportsfrom like a speech therapist and
an occupational therapist and aphysical therapist, and you're
looking at all the differentdelays and the difficulties um
and what's really impactinglife.
That's really what makes anautism diagnosis is that it
(06:43):
impacts daily living.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Um and that's it's it's all based on observation,
so that's well, and they alsohave to determine that like a
lot of the if you will, symptomsof autism have are sensory, and
so you have to determine thatthe senses are physiologically
(07:08):
functioning, like you know, achild could have a uh a hearing
impediment, and that coulddramatically affect how they act
that might have nothing to dowith their processes, 100%.
Yep, yeah, at the same time,they could have no problem and
act like there's a problem, andyou know, so at a two one
(07:32):
two-year-old child where thecommunication isn't clear, you
know, you don't have languagethe same way you do as a you
know, eight or ten-year-oldchild, it's a lot more difficult
to sort of figure out, you know,how yeah, it's it's very true.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
And the hearing aspect, like that's one thing.
So, so many times doctors say,okay, let's try and rule things
out before we just say it'sautism, right?
So hearing is one thing.
And for for kids who areyounger, there's different tests
to do, and there's specializedum, you know, hearing labs to go
(08:13):
into.
Um, you can even get a procedureif the the child won't sit still
or even like pay attention tocertain things.
Hearing tests can be done underanesthesia.
So there are all these things toto do to kind of eliminate that
because that is a hundredpercent accurate.
Sometimes it's a hearing issue,not necessarily a developmental
(08:34):
issue.
Um, and then the hearing getsresolved and it it ends up not
being an autism diagnosis.
But that's that's what doctorswant to see beforehand before
doing and giving an autismdiagnosis.
They they usually want to bevery thorough, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
So now you've got this diagnosis, and basically
they're like, Well, it's gonnasuck to be you.
I mean, like they're not reallygiving you like a uh a series of
strategies, or you know, there'sall these programs available,
there's all these um, you know,mentors, or you know, there's
not like all these resources foryou.
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah, it and it was really more like, especially
because I'm coming from thehealthcare industry where I was
helping uh create um educationprograms for doctors to stay up
to date in different oncologyprotocols, right?
So, like if you have oncology,then it's you do certain tests,
you identify certain markers,you go after them.
(09:35):
Like there's a whole strategyand plan.
And with autism, there wasn't.
So then I started just goinginto PubMed because that's as a
scientist, that's it's like, allright, let me know.
There you go.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:48):
Yeah.
Who's who's doing the research?
What does the research set say?
I'm not gonna wait 30 yearsbecause typically that's what it
takes to go from you know, aPubMed article takes 30 years
for it to trickle down to yourlike um general pediatrician's
office or you know, specialistand things like that.
No, not at all, especially whenI have the knowledge, right?
(10:11):
Like I know I have been doingthis professionally in different
therapeutic areas, so it was allright, let me let me just go to
PubMed.
And then I started building uh ahealthcare team for my daughter
based upon the doctors who weredoing that research so that I
could get in front of the peoplewho knew what they were doing.
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
So when you when you jumped into PubMed, I'm I'm uh
overcoming a very aggressivecancer right now, and I've spent
a lot of time in PubMed, and I'meducating my doctors about what
needs to be done so that I'mgetting the treatment I need.
So I know exactly where you'reat when it comes to that.
You know, I'm the world'sforemost expert on my condition
(10:51):
because I want to live a long,long, healthy life.
And going down that road, Iwasn't gonna get there.
And because they're like yousaid, they're 20 years behind
time or more.
And um, so tell me what did youdiscover?
Like, you know, when you'redealing with PubMed, you're
dealing with case studies, um,clinical trials, you're dealing
(11:12):
with, you know, all ranges ofscience.
You know, people go, oh, it'sscience, you know.
You don't know what science is,it goes through all these
different, you know, degrees ofof trial and error and study and
peer review, and and um, youknow, there's all these many,
many levels before it becomesaccepted.
(11:33):
Um, and so on PubMed, like yousaid, you can find a a wide
range of of uh levels ofscience.
So, what did you find?
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I would say the one of the first things that kind of
really shook my perspective onon everything was um different
studies throughout the yearshowing that autism diagnosis
does not have to be permanent.
Nice, yeah, and so then it is,yeah.
(12:04):
Yeah, and so back back then itused to be called an optimal
outcome.
And so they would say umballpark, it was around 10% of
kids with autism lost theirdiagnosis and had an optimal
outcome, meaning they didn'tneed any more speech therapy or
OT or you know, help in school,and they were making friends and
(12:25):
they're talking like they'rejust living their life.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah, 10%'s a good chunk, right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
And then in 2023, so that that was the information
that you know, real I latched onto and said, all right, 10.
Like, you know, getting intoYale is harder than 10.
So I can 10 is good, I can dothat.
That's I'm not afraid for thatnumber.
So then that's really whatfocused me and said, All right,
there's I've got to put a lot ofattention, I've really got to
(12:54):
understand, because you know,that's a big change in my
daughter's life.
Um, so it was really getting toknow the science.
What are they doing?
What are what are the the healthissues that are you know causing
different sensory issues?
What are health issues that arecausing um you know digestive
(13:15):
issues, right?
So just really understanding theissues my daughter was having.
But then once you go down thatscientific rabbit hole, you know
you have to understand everyperspective.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
There's a it's a lifetime's worth of learning in
there.
I mean, there's so manydifferent nuances in the limited
experience I have.
I'm like, wow, this is just likeendless.
Manifestations of this of thiscondition can go, you know,
wildly from a kid that can onlyeat, you know, red soft food to,
(13:46):
you know, I mean, there's allthese just like it goes in all
directions, every which way, howit can manifest.
And you're gonna have to havesome kind of understanding, or
at least of the at least of thethe way that it happens, like
maybe all the differentmanifestations you can collect
into a pathway that says, well,this probably came from this,
(14:09):
and then you can sort ofunderstand how it got there.
SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Yeah, so it's like weaving a tapestry of all this
information.
So just because you know, I'mlearning something about sensory
issues that many times are it'sconnected to digestive issues,
right?
Right, which then is connectedto neurotransmitters, which loop
in the brain, right?
So it's like nothing was reallyisolated, and that was the thing
(14:36):
where I really had to study andmake sure I didn't say, Oh,
well, she's not having thisproblem.
I don't need to know about this.
SPEAKER_00 (14:43):
It was no, I need to know about right, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Especially as we're learningmore about the gut, and it's you
know, widespread uh connectionto everything physiological, you
know.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Yeah, and and even something so simple as like
gluten, right?
So, like really understandingthe mechanism of action, not
listening to like you know, whatwhat I don't know, some article
on like Yahoo or something likethat, but like getting into the
science, like let me reallyunderstand this, and
understanding how gluten themechanism of action, how it
(15:18):
impacts everyone.
And so, yeah, it does make thegut more permeable for
everybody, right?
And so the the gut becomes morepermeable, things get let out
into the body that normallywouldn't.
The immune system comes andcleans it up, and typically in
like 20 minutes or so, a healthyperson can you know eat the
(15:39):
gluten, uh, you know, have thatimmune kind of cleanup and
nothing is impacted.
But when someone has pressure ontheir immune system and it's
being overworked for some otherreason, then that's where
something like gluten can reallybecome problematic.
And not just in the gut, but thecentral nervous system is highly
(16:00):
protected, but gluten also makesthat more permeable.
So I looked into pharmaceuticalcompanies who were studying
drugs to pass the blood-brainbarrier by tagging a molecule
that looked like gluten.
So pharma was trying tomanipulate this and say, okay,
we know how to make things morepermeable.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And that was like, oh, okay, I'm really
understanding why something likegluten could have an impact on
someone who has so much otherlike health issues going on, so
it's just and then there's allthese other lectins that are
similar to gluten that can havea similar problem.
And so there's yeah, I mean, youknow, it keeps going on and on.
(16:45):
So so let's jump into your yourautism program.
It sounds like um, you know,you've gotten you're getting an
understanding of of what they'relearning and these mechanisms
that are you know having impacton the situation.
And and so now you're like,okay, well, I gotta come up with
a program.
You're meeting the scientiststhat are involved, you're
(17:07):
creating sort of a network, ateam.
Let's let's how how's it goingfrom there?
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
So it it snowballed into okay, I came up to speed on
a literature, I identifiedreally great cutting-edge
doctors to work with.
We had really good appointments,and we would kind of be able to
have discussions, and then thesedoctors were the ones who said
you really need to starteducating others, right?
(17:34):
And that was not my plan.
And I was like, Oh, um, no.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Doctor recognizes the value of you know, uh a
program like that, that'spowerful because usually they're
busy going, shh, I don't know, Idon't know, I got too many
things I'm trying to do.
SPEAKER_01 (17:50):
Yeah, well, but but but again, my my academic and my
business training all taught mehow to interact with these
really busy physicians, how toget them to give my daughter the
best care.
Uh, and so then they encouragedme to start teaching others.
So I started with a blog, andthen uh I have a YouTube
channel, and that's actually 10years old now.
(18:13):
Um, and so what I would do was Iwould take these concepts um
relating to autism and thescience, and then I would just
turn it into a simple video thatwould teach parents.
And so it really started as letme just make this information as
accessible as possible.
And then parents wanted to startto work with me directly.
(18:35):
Um, and so now what we have iscalled the navigating autism
platform, and we have sevencategories where parents can
progress through and make surethey don't miss anything.
So there's lots to do withhealthcare, there's lots to do
with diet and supplements,probiotics.
There's also the parents'mindset because this is a long
(18:58):
journey.
SPEAKER_02 (18:59):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Many parents are diagnosed with PTSD when their
kids are in their teenage yearsjust because of all the stress.
So it's really important for usto work with parents and teach
them that this is a stressfulsituation and how do you take
care of yourself as well.
Um then education.
There's a lot of research goingon in education and what's the
(19:22):
best way to educate someone whohas autism.
So we work with parents on that,and then also celebrating.
Um, so we have health coachesthat work on the platform.
We put parents into small grouppods so they have that sense of
community.
They meet with their healthcoach, they have um chats
throughout the month, and um,the parents can also order
(19:43):
functional medicine testingthrough the platform, get the
information, and then we teachthem where to find good doctors.
They choose who they want towork with, and then we also help
them create agendas and how doyou keep everything tracking and
moving along?
So that's what we cover in theplatform.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
So it sounds like um, you know, anytime somebody
talks about a program like this,community to me is really
important.
Um, I know that for a parent,you know, we've worked with a
number of parents that aredealing with this, and you know,
there's this sort of nobodyunderstands, you know, I'm I you
(20:22):
can't you can't possibly, it'slike any major situation,
whether it's cancer or autism orany major disease or injury,
it's like so overwhelming.
Like, how could anybody possiblyunderstand what I'm going
through?
But the truth is many, many,many people share that same
experience.
(20:42):
And when you can bring thosepeople together, it's really
powerful.
And uh, I always think thatthat's one of the actually
that's the reason I do thispodcast is to create this, you
know, sort of all-encompassing,healthy, living-minded community
where people can find aconnection to whatever is their,
(21:03):
you know, their issue orwhatever it is they're trying to
work at.
And it works, you know, youbuild bring people together.
Um, so you is this regional oris it virtual or both, or you
don't know?
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
It's virtual, so it's virtual, and we work all
over the world.
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
Nice.
So you you you get somebodywho's got a situation over in
Georgia, and they might betalking to somebody in England
or some anywhere in the world,and and still sharing a similar
experience.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
Yeah, I love that.
Definitely.
And so, how many people um havebeen have are participating at
any given time in this program?
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
We can expand to to accommodate.
So we don't have uh limits atall.
Um, the learning is on theplatform, so there's an element
of self-learning, and then uminteracting with the health
coaches and me.
I certainly love uh working withthe parents on science.
Um, so there's no capacitylimit.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
So, how how is the science developing?
Like, you know, I know thatthey're recognizing all
different elements and you know,they're identifying maybe
mechanisms.
You know, the brain is such anamazing organ and and kind of
almost uh insulting to just tocall it an organ because it's so
(22:25):
much more than that.
And uh, you know, withneuroplasticity and all the
different, you know,capabilities that the brain has
to rewire itself and to healitself and to correct problems,
um, you know, what is the newdevelopments with on that level?
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
Well, specifically to the brain and kind of
something that's been a hottopic now, uh, would be
something called Leucovorin,which is the prescription um B9
and folinic acid.
And the the reason why it's it'sreally uh profound that this has
(23:09):
become such a hot topic is thesense that the reason why
Lucovorin in certain kids withautism is so impactful and can
increase speech so much isbecause there's antibodies in
the brain that's blocking thisvitamin from being utilized.
And so that really we it goesback to the beginning of our
(23:30):
conversation where autism,there's there's no lab test or
anything to do, right?
I think we're getting closer andcloser to having some hopefully
typical tests to do when you getthat initial question of, oh, is
there something going on with mychild?
So that's like where the fieldis going towards.
(23:52):
Um, we're definitely not thereyet, but it's good to see that
doctors are starting to reallyunderstand and communicate the
different issues that are goingon in the body health-wise, that
can really make a difference inthe child's life and the
parents' lives.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
I love that.
So, how how is your daughter?
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
She's great, she's in high school.
SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Um, and she's yes, she's she's how how has this all
of this work you've done, youknow, how do you see uh I know
it's not really a quantifiableuh question, but you know, how
do you how much of an impact doyou think you've had?
Like had you not done all thiswork and discovered all these
(24:39):
things, where do you think she'dhave been compared to where she
is now?
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
She'd be in a very, very different place.
Um, so if I didn't address a lotof her health concerns, um just
her quality of life and and herlife expectancy would be very,
very low.
So I it's compl it's acompletely different life.
I have no regrets whatsoever ofall the time I spent in PubMed
(25:08):
and and just the different lifethat I have now as a result.
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
I was gonna say, I'm sure you've benefited
dramatically from it as well.
Definitely a lot of my guests Ilike to ask, you know, about a
particular um story that wasimpactful.
Obviously, your daughter andyours is the most impactful
story to you, but aside fromthat one, can you share a story
with us of somebody who yourprogram has affected in a really
(25:36):
dramatic way?
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Sure.
There's many stories.
Um, one that comes to mind is uhof a dad and his son.
Um he you know wasn't speaking,it was really difficult, um, not
sleeping at night.
Um the child was very difficult,so no one really wanted to watch
him.
So the parents, both parentskind of had to come home from
(26:00):
work at all different times.
Um, and as they startedresolving health issues, um it's
a completely different child.
He can get his hair cut, right?
No problem.
He's now in um Taekwondo.
And so his dad, you know, sendsme emails and saying, like, oh,
(26:21):
look at what we're doing now.
What do we do?
Like, you know, and so they'rejust able to have those family
moments that we all as parentskind of took for granted,
thinking that was justguaranteed, and it it's not.
So um, those tender moments arereally important for you know,
father, son, and for family.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
I love that.
Well, Teresa, um, this is sortof that time I'd like to give
you a chance to wrap everythingup into sort of a parting
thought and uh share with ourlisteners.
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
Sure.
So if if parents orgrandparents, we also work with
grandparents, if uh anyone isreally wanting to understand how
they can help their child obtainoptimal health and really
understand all the differentcutting-edge research that's
going on in autism, our platformis made perfectly for that.
(27:17):
Um, you'll get communitysupport, you get expert people
to interact with, and um, youcan also order the tests so that
you can get an understanding ofyourself as to what are the real
health concerns.
Um, and the platform for anyonein the US, we also accept
flexible spending.
So we make it as affordable andas uh easy as possible for
(27:41):
parents to join and really getthe support and information that
they need.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
Wow, that's powerful.
And uh maybe as important, howdoes somebody access this
platform?
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
Sure.
So you can find me at uhnavigatingautism.com.
Um, you can also find me andautism.
We didn't even get to talk aboutthat.
Why I spell it differently.
SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
All right, well, let's get yourself a chance to
talk about that.
You know, you you A-W-E-T-I-S-M.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Yep, it's it's spelled differently.
So I hated the word autism.
I will hated seeing my daughterbe in such agony and not be able
to do anything in life, and itlife was extremely difficult.
So that word autism, I didn'teven like saying it.
I would say, oh, she's on thespectrum.
(28:29):
Like I would just avoid it.
And then as I started to learnthe science, and as I got to see
like how determined she was whenshe had, you know, like
headaches and stomach aches, andshe was still getting up and
going to school, getting up,going on a little adventures
with me.
Like she wanted to be part oflife so much that that's when I
(28:50):
started to see the awe in that,where it's like, wow, she's just
so determined.
So I've got to do whatever I canso that she can do what she
wants to do in life becauseshe's working so hard at it.
So that's when autism became theautism.
And I looked at her sodifferently, and just yeah, so
(29:13):
that's what I hope to also helpparents see is just that
powerful, powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Well, why don't you share that uh that website again
so that way um it doesn't getlost in the in this great little
story?
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
Sure.
So it's navigatingautism.com, sonavigating N-A-V-I-G-A-T-I-N-G
A-W-E-T-S M.com.
And um, I also have a YouTubechannel, so uh same thing,
navigating autism.
Uh, if you just put my name inautism, lots of things will pop
(29:47):
up on YouTube and Instagram.
Um, we also have another websitethat has more of a blog, and
that's aw e t I S M.net.
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Beautiful.
All right.
Well, Dr.
Lyons, it's a pleasure.
And I I really have enjoyed thisconversation.
And my invitation to return andgo deep into any of these topics
is open.
And I just want to thank you forbeing here.
SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Sure.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
Awesome.
This has been another edition ofthe Healthy Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumba, and Iwant to thank all of our
listeners for making thispossible.
And we will see you next time.
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