October 6, 2025 • 41 mins
Fear gets loud when cancer enters the room—so we turn up the volume on evidence, agency, and community. Joe shares a raw update from his latest chemo cycle, from brain fog and nausea to the quiet wins of returning strength, and we use that lived reality to ground a bigger conversation: how to choose treatments that are both effective and humane. We unpack why PubMed, peer review, and case studies matter, how to read claims with a skeptic’s eye, and what it looks like to build a plan that balances standard care with thoughtful additions—nutrition, metabolic strategies, and carefully dosed immunotherapy—without closing doors.
Dr. Hoffman explains the real menu inside “standard care” and why sequencing matters. Neoadjuvant chemo can buy time and reduce damage; surgery and radiation are tools, not defaults. We contrast this with celebrity “cures” and viral protocols that skip evidence and put patients at risk. The difference isn’t attitude—it’s accountability. Extraordinary claims deserve publication and scrutiny, not soundbites. We also share a cautionary story of a patient whose biomarkers rose after a dose reduction on a targeted drug, underscoring the need for second opinions before changing a stable regimen and the urgency of acting when numbers trend the wrong way.
What ties it all together is community. Patients who’ve lived it offer the straightest talk, the best practical tips, and the resolve to keep going. We lean on that network to navigate logistics, expand access to capable clinicians, and maintain hope built on measurable progress. If you’re facing tough choices, let this conversation be your map: ask better questions, verify the data, protect options, and move quickly when the facts change. If this helped you think clearer, follow the show, share it with someone who needs a steadier hand, and leave a review so others can find their footing too.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andwe're happy that today, once
again, Dr.
Robert Hoffman is with us.
Robert, welcome to the club.
Everybody, glad to be here, Joe.
Always.
Always a pleasure.
So this week we're gonna jumpship a little bit and get more
(00:23):
into the community aspect of thework we're doing.
Um, my my update is reallyminimal um since the last time
we talked.
I I'm slowly recovering fromthat last round of chemo and um
gaining a little bit ofstrength.
It just really knocked me for aloop last time.
So I had like zero batteries.
(00:44):
My nausea was at a 12 out of 10,and the taste in my mouth was
just nasty as hell.
But every day it gets a littlebetter, and I got nothing to
complain about.
I I'll take this all day longover a giant lump sticking out
of my neck, and it's just uh thecost of doing business out here,
(01:04):
you know.
And um I'm glad I'm getting alittle stronger every day.
My brain's starting to turn backon a little bit.
That's the other thing, it'slike your brain gets scrambled,
you just forget everything, andyou don't uh I don't know, it's
just like you're like it's likeyou're drunk without any fun.
And um, but it doesn't it'sgetting better every day.
(01:27):
And you know, today I I I wantto talk about a couple of
things.
One, um, you sent me over um orShahiro sent me over um an email
that had 13 case studies, and umI started looking through them,
and and uh these are allpublished reports um that are
(01:49):
published in a peer-reviewedperiodical or site, the PubMed.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Freely available to everybody, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
Right all listed on PubMed.
And you know what's interesting?
Um I've had a lot of reallyinteresting guests on in the
last few weeks, and more doctorsand scientists have been coming
on my show, various disciplinesand various topics.
But whenever, you know, I alwaysfind a way to throw my situation
(02:18):
into the story because it'ssomething always comes up that I
can tie it to.
And then when I talk to themabout, you know, that we're
publishing the case study onPubMed, all of all of a sudden
they're their attention changes,you know, like they get like
these are people that rely onthis resource for quality
(02:40):
information, and it comes from alot of different sources.
Some of it's um, you know, casestudies, some of times it's uh
um uh uh a trial, sometimes it'san IRB.
There's all these differentdifferent things that can be
published, but the point is, isit's all peer-reviewed and it's
(03:03):
all vetted.
It's not just you know, somebodythrowing out on their YouTube
channel, this is this thing Idid, and this study that we
conducted.
Um, there's there's checks andbalances with this.
And the the scientists anddoctors that I've been talking
to, every time I mention, youknow, that site, all of a sudden
(03:23):
they're like, oh, interesting,let me look that up.
And so really it carries someweight.
And I and I want our listenersto realize, you know, there's
information that comes at usfrom all these sources, and
social media is throwing studiesat us right and left, and
YouTube and your friends andfamily and books, and you know,
you just gotta take your timeand really question and and
(03:49):
source your information andrealize, you know, where's it
coming from?
Is this just because somebodysays that word study, that
doesn't mean a damn thing unlessit's really got some bona fides
and and um you know somebodysomebody else is looking at it,
they're trying to prove theopposite.
What's your thoughts on allthat?
(04:16):
Sorry, Joe.
No, I was saying, what are yourthoughts about that whole line
of thinking that you know wereally have to be critical with
our with the information that'scoming our way?
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
Well, I just can tell you the a small experience
I had last month.
Um Russian TV came to came tointerview me.
Right, and they watched apodcast, I guess this goes all
over the world, uh Joe Rogan andMel Gibson.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
And Gibson went on that podcast and said, Yeah, I
got three friends with stagefour cancer.
They took ivermectin,fenbendazole, and I don't know,
methylene blue or whatever.
They're all cured.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
And the interview the interviewer asked me and
said, What do you think aboutthat?
I said, I only take ininformation from peer-reviewed
papers and established journals.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
That was my answer.
So Mel Gibson can say anythinghe wants, and if it's really
true, it should be published.
unknown (05:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
And it should and it should be vetted by peer review.
I mean, if that's a veryspectacular result, and that guy
is gonna sit there with thatridiculous smile he has and and
tell us uh this is the truth.
Um I don't think that'sresponsible at all.
(05:57):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Especially when somebody has a voice that you
know people will listen to forwhatever reason, whether you're
uh he's a movie actor.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (06:08):
There's nothing that makes him an expert on cancer,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Right, right.
Yeah, no, and that's theproblem, though, is somebody
gets a a little bit of fame,they get a name, and then they
say a thing, and automaticallythey're you know sort of
accepted as some kind of a anauthority on the subject, and
and yeah, people are willing toand you know what the the
Russians TV asked me, are youworried that people will give up
(06:40):
standard therapy for this?
SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
And my answer to them was with very few
exceptions, I don't acceptpatients who give up standard
therapy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
We need to improve standard therapy, not replace it
with with um how to say, replaceit with therapy that's not been
shown to be effective.
Um especially clinical trials atleast, or a lot of case studies,
(07:12):
published articles.
Um there's various degrees ofevidence, but we need some at
least reasonable evidence.
And yeah, like you said,somebody has a fame and they can
uh take advantage of that fameto say anything they want.
Um it's not good, not good, andthe cancer patient is probably
(07:41):
the most vulnerable person thereis 100% to pend it, and uh to
hear that kind of stuff andthink about giving up standard
therapy, that's that's terrible.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
You know, it's funny, there's there's there's
two edges to that becausestandard therapy sometimes their
first course of action is maybethe most dramatic and most
invasive and most potentiallyharmful.
Whereas common sense would say,well, let's look at all the
(08:19):
options as to what might work,and then let's look at the thing
that might be the most effectiveand the least harmful.
And then if we have to go tosomething more harmful, well,
then you know, you have that tofall back on.
I was talking to a chiropractorthe other day, and and she's
working with cutting-edgetechnology, and and and her
(08:41):
thinking is that you know, a lotof back surgeries is are are
unsuccessful, and they lead toeven more problems, maybe a lot
more so even than standard ofcare for cancer is, you know,
because it's just really dicey.
You're in there with with youknow so many potential problems
to happen, and you don't knowhow your body's gonna accept the
(09:02):
changes, and you know, just somany things can happen.
And her thinking is well, I Ihave solutions that could help
you and definitely won't hurtyou.
And so it would make sense totry something like that before
you go and jump into a surgerythat you can't undo once you've
done.
And you know, like the standardof care.
(09:23):
Like when I first went into UCI,first guy I talked to was the
surgeon.
And his answer was, we're gonnagive you a little radiation
chemo, and then we're gonna cutthis thing out of you.
And I said, Okay, well, I didn'tknow any different.
So I'm just listening to him andtrying to evaluate and not
making any commitments, but justgathering information.
(09:44):
Then I go to the radiologist,first thing he says is, You do
not want surgery.
And I'm like, whoa, you know,you're you guys are on the same
team, you're working out of thesame same clinic, and and one's
telling me one thing, one'stelling me something else.
But then the radiologist says,Well, what we need to give you
is 30 to 40 high dose radiationalong with a little chemo, and
(10:09):
that will probably make it soyou won't need the surgery.
And then I go do in research onthat, and I go, Well, that's
gonna leave me potentiallydehabilitated, maybe lose my
voice, maybe not be able toswallow, maybe be stuck on a
feeding tube all my life, maybemy teeth fall out, maybe bones
break.
There's all these potentialproblems, and there's good
(10:33):
evidence that cancer couldreturn in a different place, a
different way.
It also is shown to be a prettyeffective treatment for most
people.
Okay, great.
I gotta weigh all that together.
And then I talk to the chemodoctor, and she's like, Yeah, I
work with the radiologist, we dothis thing together.
Then I meet Dr.
Hoffman and the group, um, andwe start talking about maybe
(11:00):
some other solutions that um canbe combined together using the
best of some of the Westernstandard of care, along with
some of these discoveries withdiet and even these oxidative
therapies that Dr.
Exeme and some of the others areworking with.
(11:21):
And we came up with a a protocolthat worked for me and would
probably work for anybody thathad the problem I had, you know,
the way that I had it.
For anybody else, I don't know,but I know that like we were
able to look and say it was anecessity.
I had to come up with somethingthat worked because it was going
(11:42):
to kill me otherwise.
So it was really, I didn't havea whole lot of choice.
I had to act and find something,but we found something that was
very unlikely to have a lastingnegative effect and might do a
really good job at solving theproblem, right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
Well, Joe, um, and and and your point is is good,
and the thing is the bottom lineof what you say is the cancer
patient has to do homework likeyou did.
So surgery is standard care,radiation is standard care,
(12:23):
chemo is standard care, acombination of any of the above,
all standard care.
There's a lot of options forstandard care.
So uh a cancer patient has to dohomework or consult with people
that'll tell them how should Isay the informed truth that you
(12:50):
don't have to do all thesethings at once.
There is a very uh widely usedprotocol, what's called
neo-adjuvant chemotherapy.
That means chemotherapy beforeyou do something else.
Exactly.
Surgery, radiation, and thiswill have the least damage to
(13:18):
you among all the others, andyou can always go to the other
parts of standard care radiationsurgery if the knee management
chemo doesn't work.
So my point is there's a a apretty good menu to choose for
standard care, and you're allwithin standard care.
(13:43):
And so, but my previous pointwas um we still need to stay
within the confines of standardcare.
One one part of it uh ormultiple parts, we can't give up
standard care um and and expectto have a good outcome because
(14:11):
some Mel Gibson says so, or somequack that has a program says
so.
Um so the cancer patient, thepoor cancer patient without
doing a lot of homework is atthe mercy of the oncologist.
(14:37):
Right.
And the oncologist can be reallycapricious.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Um what they're gonna prescribe, and it's very
easy for the cancer patient tosay, okay, doc, whatever you
say, I got cancer, help me out.
And he the oncologist says,sure, I'm gonna help you out.
And I'm sure the oncologistmeans well.
But yeah, it's the cancerpatient whose life is on the
(15:05):
line, not the oncologist.
So the cancer patient, unlessthe cancer patient does a lot of
homework, they're at the mercyof the system.
The system means well, but itdoesn't work that well.
(15:27):
Um true.
So and a lot of folks they don'thave the wherewithal to do the
homework.
They're they're just puttingthemselves at the mercy.
Well, and another a lot offolks, I think, that may not be
doing homework could do it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
They need encouragement, they're not gonna
do it on their own.
They need this podcast or theyneed our Zoom meeting.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
The community is the two million people who are gonna
get cancer in the United Statesthis year.
How many are gonna be on eitherof those?
Hundred?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Not enough.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:10):
Um the situation is just out of control.
Uh we try to help one person ata time.
Um that's all we can do.
I'm I'm so happy to help oneperson at a time.
Um well, speaking of that, it'dbe great to help a thousand at a
(16:35):
time, but we just don't havethat ability.
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Well, speaking of one person at a time, you know,
the community to me is soimportant that not only just for
you know information fromtrusted sources, these are all
people that have gone through itor they're sharing their
nobody's more trustworthy than acancer patient telling about his
(16:59):
or her cancer.
Exactly.
And and so when I when I sit inthat room with these people, I'm
I'm talking, you know, it'sfunny.
Before I was diagnosed, youknow, you hear about the club,
right?
You know, you can't you don'tknow until you know.
And once you get it, you'reright.
It is, it's true.
Nobody can understand what it islike unless you've gone through
(17:22):
it because you just can't.
But when you're in a room ofpeople who have all gone through
it and and are going through itand and and are dealing with the
you know long-term lifetimeeffects of this, it's it's it's
a room that you just can feelokay to be vulnerable.
You feel you feel like you cantell them anything.
(17:43):
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Um, you know, the the stakes areso high with the cancer patient
that you know, if if somebodydecides, well, I'm gonna just
kind of take a chance and go doa thing, and maybe it works a
little bit, but then that cancercomes back, it comes back
(18:05):
stronger and meaner and morecapable and ready to spread.
And and every time you miss withcancer, it's more likely to come
back and and spread throughoutyour body and do you some real
damage.
So you've got to come up withyour best plan the first time
out if you're pot if you canpossibly, because each time you
(18:27):
miss, it just gets worse.
And and it's it's it's troublingfor me, you know.
I came from a place where Ithought, well, you know, let's
just go at this from the mostnatural, you know, there's an
answer for everything in a planthere and there.
And and yeah, maybe that's true,but we haven't figured that out,
(18:47):
that's for sure.
And the truth is you gotta yougotta do the research and figure
out what's the best thing forwhat you got, and go at it 100%.
Don't mess around and and uhdabble with something when you
when you can hit it hard.
Um now this this group thatwe're in to me is one of the
(19:10):
most important resources, asidefrom you and all the work and
the research you've done and theyou know developing the
methionase and really gettingthis diet down to an art and a
science.
Um, but the people sharing theirexperiences with this has been
powerful.
And we find over and over againthat when somebody stays on a
(19:33):
protocol that works, generallythey stay on a course, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:39):
And then all of a sudden the diligent people do
better, there's no question.
Yeah, it's not a hundredpercent, but that's that's the
trend.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
What with with these people we're talking about,
generally, you know, you got Dr.
Exume that's still battlingmetastasis, and he's going at a
really aggressive chess game,and and and it can be like that.
I think a couple of the otherones are in a pretty difficult
spot that that they're findingtheir way through.
(20:10):
But most of them, if you can getit to where you got it under
control even a little bit, youcan find an answer that keeps it
there.
But then every once in a while adoctor makes a change and all of
a sudden things start goingcrazy.
And we've got one of the membersthat we're dealing with now.
And why don't you share thestory?
(20:31):
Um, because I think it'simportant for people to realize
that even though you might be ona path where you've you're
you're in remission or whateverthey call it, you've got it
resolved, and you're on somesort of a maintenance program,
it's you're never done, andyou've got to be diligent and
mindful the whole way through.
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
Well, we have one patient.
I the story is not not fullyclear yet, right?
But it seems like this lady whohad metastatic breast cancer, it
really looked like it was verymuch toward remission, stable
(21:16):
for two or three years.
All of a sudden in June, herblood marker numbers, biomarker
numbers started just climbingevery few weeks.
And the PET scan showed spreadto the bones, to the abdomen.
(21:38):
And I talked with her, and shesays, Yeah, I went down to the
oncologist put me on low dose ofthe drug I was taking.
I think the the the numbersstarted going up in June.
I think she's maybe not clearexactly when she started the low
(21:59):
dose, but I suspect it was inJune.
Anyway, she went on low dose andher numbers are just climbing.
I mean, if this story is correctand it's easy for the patient to
get confused.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
But if this story is correct, it's a lesson for
everybody.
When you when the doctor givesyou, oh, we're gonna change this
or that, get a second opinion.
I mean, here's the lady underunder, she's been doing so well,
(22:36):
and all of a sudden the numbersgo up every two, three weeks.
The blood marker the biomarkersin the blood for the breast
cancer.
So I don't know.
This this this isn't anunfinished story right now, and
(22:58):
but I have a feeling at leasteven if it's not all exactly
what I'm saying, what I I'mtrying to get across is when
you're doing well and the doctortells you to change something,
get another opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
SPEAKER_02 (23:21):
I don't know where they come from.
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
Um and was the drug that she was on, did it have
some kind of a lasting negativeside effect?
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
Yeah, it at high dose it was very nasty.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Uh she couldn't get off the couch.
It's a very popular drug, veryexpensive.
It's called NHER2.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
So at high dose, she couldn't get off the couch.
So a couple years ago, she wentto medium dose and has done
really well.
And what she told me that todayor yesterday, oh, I went the
doctor or whatever his name is,told me to go down a low dose.
(24:08):
And I think she's not quiteclear when that happened, right?
But I surmised that it's it'sdirectly concordant with going
down to the low dose and thenumbers going up.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
It makes sense.
I mean, there she didn't changeanything else.
I mean, she's still on the diet,she's still doing everything
else right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
And why would a cancer, you know, steady eddy
all these years all of a suddenmake a kind of a discontinuous
change?
Right.
I don't know.
We'll learn more.
But my what I want to say hereis you know, we'll get more
information on this story andand share with the folks.
(24:52):
But my point is when the doctells you to change something
and you you're doing well, youknow, if it ain't broke, don't
fix it.
Um you know, I I don't know.
I don't know sometimes wherepeople are coming from.
(25:13):
But the my point is the cancerpatient has to be so aware, so
diligent, study hard.
Your life depends on it.
You can't just leave it yourlife in the hands of somebody
else.
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Well, it it it couldn't be true or words, you
know.
That as as well-meaning as adoctor is, he's never gonna put
the attention to your case theway you would.
Of course not.
You can't, it's not even apossibility.
So he's got whatever, five, tenminutes, maybe half an hour to
go look through your file, makesome decisions based on his
(25:54):
knowledge and understanding ofthe uh of it all.
And I'm sure he's always gonnado the best that he knows, but
that's it.
That's that's that's what youget.
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
And even like you said, getting a second opinion
or or or more, you know, I wouldsay, you know, get you know, use
AI, get, you know, yeah, yeah,use every learn.
And now these days you can learnanything with AI.
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
You can AI is your tutor.
Agreed, agreed.
And there's, you know, there'sjust there's we have access to
literally all the information onthe planet at our fingertips
right now, aside from you know,bits and pieces of some
classified crap.
But other than that, it's allavailable.
We can access it one way oranother, the same information
(26:45):
the doctors have, and you know,even more because the doctors
aren't going to go outside oftheir you know, their curriculum
and the the or their comfortzone.
Comfort zone, you know.
That's that's that's the waythey're trained.
SPEAKER_02 (26:58):
They go to their conferences and they but the
good thing is some doctors likeDr.
Song are different.
You got a story in UC Irvine,and and that was the gospel
truth, and it turns out itwasn't.
That there is other things todo.
This particular patient now hasbeen told there's no more drugs
left for her, only clinicaltrials.
(27:20):
Wow.
And you and I, we're not medicaloncologists, but we know that
isn't right at all.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
We know it.
So you put on your Superman capeonce again.
You gotta hold a doctor's song,and he agreed to see her.
SPEAKER_02 (27:40):
Yeah, he didn't agree to take her yet.
Oh no, but at least I I told heryou gotta be real indignant and
really angry at your presentoncologist.
How you know, and oh, she said,Oh worry, I can handle that.
Well, this this Sundayhopefully, hopefully on the
call.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
I'm gonna give her uh uh a lesson of what I
discovered worked with this guy,and he's a great guy, and if you
can understand, kind of, youknow, I mean, obviously, I only
know him for you know the timeI've spent with him, but I I
know what I did and the responsethat I've gotten from him, and
(28:22):
uh a few things.
Number one, presenting you know,the the injustice of you know,
you know you know an answer thatmight help you, and your doctor
wouldn't help you, and that's sothere's that injustice.
That's the point, Joe.
SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
Exactly.
Your doctor wouldn't help you,and this is what is happening to
this lady, exactly as whathappened to you.
Yes, he's he said, there'snothing more, all we got is
clinical trials, right?
And and and I said to herclinical trial, you're just
gonna be a big mouse, right?
(28:59):
Yeah, you have no idea.
It's not for your benefit, it'sfor the doc.
In this case, he's an academicUCLA doc to maybe become more
promoted, yeah.
Uh a drug company to make morebillions, right?
Uh-uh.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
No, absolutely.
It it's it's the basically thesame system, the UC system.
It's all you know, it's allfunded the same, they're all
motivated by the same things.
It's not necessarily a badthing, it's just not necessarily
good for you if you're in a spotlike hers.
And you know, um, so that's thethe the most important thing,
(29:39):
but also her willingness to getout there and do the hard thing,
whatever it is.
You know, when I told him, I go,I'll do whatever it takes.
If I gotta move down to SanDiego, I'll move down to San
Diego.
You tell me what I need to do,and I'll do it.
And when he saw my persistenceand willingness to what
whatever, I want to I want.
(30:00):
To live and I want, I want, Ihave an answer, and we can do
this together.
And he's he he his words to mewere I'm not gonna leave you
stranded.
Those were his actual words,yeah.
Beautiful words, yeah.
And once he said that to me, Iwas like, Okay, I'm gonna be all
right.
Like, you know, like thatlifeline got thrown to me, and I
grabbed on, and I'm not gonna gounder.
(30:22):
So, yeah, hopefully, um, youknow, she lives further away
than I do, and and hopefullythat's not gonna be an obstacle.
One more hour, big deal.
And she's willing to do what ittakes, and it really doesn't
matter where you live if you'rewilling to go and do what it
takes.
So uh to me, it's like you know,look, if you got a far doctor's
(30:44):
appointment, I mean you're gonnago to Japan for your medpack.
Exactly.
I couldn't go farther, really.
Like, that's about as far as youcan go, and I'm gonna do what it
takes, and I'm gonna raise upthe money, I'm gonna carve out
the time, I'm gonna get my assover there.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
And it's not that much money.
The whole thing will be under5k, including the and we will
just make it work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The$60 a night place.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
Um, and no, it's gonna well under$5k.
Yeah, and it's it's a it's avery solvable problem, and
that's that's the thing that tome, like when you get a mindset
that says, I'm gonna take thisall the way, and I go, I know
where I'm going.
I'm gonna have that MetPet thatshows me I'm at I got no cancer
(31:37):
in me, and we're gonna create agood solid maintenance program,
and I'm gonna follow it to theT, and we're gonna check back
every 18 to 24 months, and we'lljust make regular trips to Japan
and we'll we'll be on it.
We know what we got going on.
SPEAKER_02 (31:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
So hopefully, um, you know, she'll be able to
connect with Dr.
Song in a similar fashion that Idid.
And um, and and maybe, you know,maybe he comes up with something
that's not even on the menu thatthey even know.
Maybe there's a chemo answer,maybe there's uh maybe Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Soto will have something different for sure if
if if it's needed.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
Right, right, exactly.
And and who knows, maybe with umthis lady just going back on
that medium dose of the drugwould do what it needed to.
I mean, it may.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
And her oncologist is not willing to do it.
Wow, all right.
Well, I don't get it.
I don't know.
I there's some disconnect, or uhI'm not getting it.
Um I don't know, but her numbersare going up.
Well, hopefully she's going up.
June, July, August, September.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
Up so we gotta act quick.
That's that's the key.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
And the PET scan, bone mats, abdominal mats.
I showed her the new paper thatyou got, the newest one, Joe.
We went over that on PubMedtogether.
Okay, and she saw the before andthe after this breast cancer
(33:27):
lady who was just whole bodyfull of medicine.
The after picture was clean.
She says, I want to be likethat.
I says, Well, you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
That's perfect, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Um you know, this lady was told to go to hospice.
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
And and that's it.
They all you know, most most inthe developed world you get
first line chemo, mayberadiation, maybe surgery, you
get second line chemo.
You fail second line, not muchmore we can do for you, but
we'll put you on a clinicaltrial.
SPEAKER_01 (34:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (34:08):
You fail that hospice.
That's the way it is.
So this lady now is at the stageof clinical trial, and the
chance of that helping her isreally small, and then the next
thing that she's gonna be toldgo to hospice.
Yeah, that's unacceptable.
Oh my gosh, it's so awful, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah.
All right, and that's what we'rehere for.
Like you said, one patient at atime.
We're gonna jump in and doeverything we can, and um, that
includes research, it includesconnection, it includes you
know, support, emotional,mental, everything we can offer.
(34:50):
I mean, you know, at the end ofthe day, that that that will to
fight is is as important as theanswers that you get.
You gotta, you know, if you loseyour hope, everything falls to
shit real quick.
And we for sure you gotta keepthat from happening.
And uh, I'm looking forward tothis Sunday and and you know,
(35:11):
getting out there, you know, andyeah, you gotta give her a
little bit of tutoring.
SPEAKER_02 (35:15):
I think she's she gets it.
She she really gets it already,but she's a smart lady, you can
tell she yeah, but you know, youyou you've been through it with
the same doc.
You got him to take you on whenhe wasn't gonna.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
I'll share the nuance of what I've learned and
and and hopefully give her alittle bit of a a tool that that
she'll be able to pull from.
SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
Yeah.
So well, the bottom line is Dr.
Song is a kind man.
He's kind.
That's clear.
SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
And he's very capable.
And yeah, he's been in thebusiness more than half a
century.
And he's on it.
Like, I mean, you look in evenjust in his in his clinic, he's
got books stacked all over theplace.
You can tell he's he's readingup on the latest things all the
time.
Like, he's on this, you know.
There's not he's no slouch whenit comes to this.
(36:12):
He's not just doing that sameold thing over and over again.
He's no, he's um, you know, evenlike you know, with the
immunotherapy, he he's I mean,that's cutting edge, Joe.
I know, and and we're working itin a way that's contrary to what
the studies have shown theirresults, which had all kinds of
(36:33):
negative side effects.
And what we're doing is, in myopinion, much more likely to
have a good result without thenegative side effects.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
And he's well, you haven't had any discernible side
effects so far.
SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (36:46):
And that's really good.
SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Yeah, and my my blood work is good.
Um, my immune system'sresponding well, and now that
I'm done with the chemo, I'mreally excited to see the blood
work start coming back strongerand stronger, you know, instead
of getting beating, absolutely.
It'll uh, you know, those thosemarkers that have been going
back and forth.
(37:08):
Hopefully, they're just gonnaget to that ultimate spot and
just stay that way.
Yeah.
So, well, Robert, as always,it's a it's great to have you
here.
You know, thank you, Joe.
SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
Great to be here every time.
We have a great discussion, wemove, we move forward.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Exactly.
And I I believe that we're gonnabe able to help this lady and um
and me too.
SPEAKER_02 (37:33):
I'm I I'm I'm I'm I'm 100% on that one.
We're gonna help her.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Um and also the the information you sent me, I
forwarded over to uh Dr.
Crowley, that compoundingpharmacist I was telling you
about.
Yeah, and he responded quickly.
He was really grateful I sentthat to him, and I know he's
gonna take his time and readthrough this stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
So, you know well, you know, this guy may be our
partner to make our ownhominics.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Yeah, I I am I I'm gonna let him read through this
stuff, and then I'm gonna talkto him about that project and
see what he thinks about it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:11):
But I'm I'm confident that's a great
connection, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (38:16):
Yeah, and he's really versed with the gut
biome, and he works withpeptides, and the guy is
brilliant.
Like he as much as you know yourscience, this guy knows his
science, and he's been workingfor sure, he's been working with
um you know cannabis medicinefor a long time, and he knows a
lot of the the cutting edgeresearch with that, but he's
(38:38):
been working a lot with peptidesand gut biome, and it's all
really leading edge stuff.
So he's really interested inthis because it's new to him,
too.
SPEAKER_02 (38:52):
Okay, well, we we need people like him on the team
desperately.
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
Exactly.
Well, I'm gonna do what I can tobring him aboard, and uh Robert,
as always, I thank you fortaking your time to share with
us.
SPEAKER_02 (39:03):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
And we'll see you on Sunday.
You bet.
All right, take care.
Bye, everybody.
All right, it's been anotherepisode of the Healthy Living
Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumba, and Iwant to thank all of our
listening listeners for joiningus, and we'll see you next time.
You bet.
Well, hello, and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumbine, andwe're happy that today, once
again, Dr.
Robert Hoffman is with us.
Robert, welcome to the club.
Everybody, glad to be here, Joe.
Always.
Always a pleasure.
So this week we're gonna jumpship a little bit and get more
(00:23):
into the community aspect of thework we're doing.
Um, my my update is reallyminimal um since the last time
we talked.
I I'm slowly recovering fromthat last round of chemo and um
gaining a little bit ofstrength.
It just really knocked me for aloop last time.
So I had like zero batteries.
(00:44):
My nausea was at a 12 out of 10,and the taste in my mouth was
just nasty as hell.
But every day it gets a littlebetter, and I got nothing to
complain about.
I I'll take this all day longover a giant lump sticking out
of my neck, and it's just uh thecost of doing business out here,
(01:04):
you know.
And um I'm glad I'm getting alittle stronger every day.
My brain's starting to turn backon a little bit.
That's the other thing, it'slike your brain gets scrambled,
you just forget everything, andyou don't uh I don't know, it's
just like you're like it's likeyou're drunk without any fun.
And um, but it doesn't it'sgetting better every day.
(01:27):
And you know, today I I I wantto talk about a couple of
things.
One, um, you sent me over um orShahiro sent me over um an email
that had 13 case studies, and umI started looking through them,
and and uh these are allpublished reports um that are
(01:49):
published in a peer-reviewedperiodical or site, the PubMed.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Freely available to everybody, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
Right all listed on PubMed.
And you know what's interesting?
Um I've had a lot of reallyinteresting guests on in the
last few weeks, and more doctorsand scientists have been coming
on my show, various disciplinesand various topics.
But whenever, you know, I alwaysfind a way to throw my situation
(02:18):
into the story because it'ssomething always comes up that I
can tie it to.
And then when I talk to themabout, you know, that we're
publishing the case study onPubMed, all of all of a sudden
they're their attention changes,you know, like they get like
these are people that rely onthis resource for quality
(02:40):
information, and it comes from alot of different sources.
Some of it's um, you know, casestudies, some of times it's uh
um uh uh a trial, sometimes it'san IRB.
There's all these differentdifferent things that can be
published, but the point is, isit's all peer-reviewed and it's
(03:03):
all vetted.
It's not just you know, somebodythrowing out on their YouTube
channel, this is this thing Idid, and this study that we
conducted.
Um, there's there's checks andbalances with this.
And the the scientists anddoctors that I've been talking
to, every time I mention, youknow, that site, all of a sudden
(03:23):
they're like, oh, interesting,let me look that up.
And so really it carries someweight.
And I and I want our listenersto realize, you know, there's
information that comes at usfrom all these sources, and
social media is throwing studiesat us right and left, and
YouTube and your friends andfamily and books, and you know,
you just gotta take your timeand really question and and
(03:49):
source your information andrealize, you know, where's it
coming from?
Is this just because somebodysays that word study, that
doesn't mean a damn thing unlessit's really got some bona fides
and and um you know somebodysomebody else is looking at it,
they're trying to prove theopposite.
What's your thoughts on allthat?
(04:16):
Sorry, Joe.
No, I was saying, what are yourthoughts about that whole line
of thinking that you know wereally have to be critical with
our with the information that'scoming our way?
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
Well, I just can tell you the a small experience
I had last month.
Um Russian TV came to came tointerview me.
Right, and they watched apodcast, I guess this goes all
over the world, uh Joe Rogan andMel Gibson.
SPEAKER_01 (04:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
And Gibson went on that podcast and said, Yeah, I
got three friends with stagefour cancer.
They took ivermectin,fenbendazole, and I don't know,
methylene blue or whatever.
They're all cured.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
And the interview the interviewer asked me and
said, What do you think aboutthat?
I said, I only take ininformation from peer-reviewed
papers and established journals.
SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
That was my answer.
So Mel Gibson can say anythinghe wants, and if it's really
true, it should be published.
unknown (05:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (05:36):
And it should and it should be vetted by peer review.
I mean, if that's a veryspectacular result, and that guy
is gonna sit there with thatridiculous smile he has and and
tell us uh this is the truth.
Um I don't think that'sresponsible at all.
(05:57):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Especially when somebody has a voice that you
know people will listen to forwhatever reason, whether you're
uh he's a movie actor.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (06:08):
There's nothing that makes him an expert on cancer,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Right, right.
Yeah, no, and that's theproblem, though, is somebody
gets a a little bit of fame,they get a name, and then they
say a thing, and automaticallythey're you know sort of
accepted as some kind of a anauthority on the subject, and
and yeah, people are willing toand you know what the the
Russians TV asked me, are youworried that people will give up
(06:40):
standard therapy for this?
SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
And my answer to them was with very few
exceptions, I don't acceptpatients who give up standard
therapy.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (06:51):
We need to improve standard therapy, not replace it
with with um how to say, replaceit with therapy that's not been
shown to be effective.
Um especially clinical trials atleast, or a lot of case studies,
(07:12):
published articles.
Um there's various degrees ofevidence, but we need some at
least reasonable evidence.
And yeah, like you said,somebody has a fame and they can
uh take advantage of that fameto say anything they want.
Um it's not good, not good, andthe cancer patient is probably
(07:41):
the most vulnerable person thereis 100% to pend it, and uh to
hear that kind of stuff andthink about giving up standard
therapy, that's that's terrible.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
You know, it's funny, there's there's there's
two edges to that becausestandard therapy sometimes their
first course of action is maybethe most dramatic and most
invasive and most potentiallyharmful.
Whereas common sense would say,well, let's look at all the
(08:19):
options as to what might work,and then let's look at the thing
that might be the most effectiveand the least harmful.
And then if we have to go tosomething more harmful, well,
then you know, you have that tofall back on.
I was talking to a chiropractorthe other day, and and she's
working with cutting-edgetechnology, and and and her
(08:41):
thinking is that you know, a lotof back surgeries is are are
unsuccessful, and they lead toeven more problems, maybe a lot
more so even than standard ofcare for cancer is, you know,
because it's just really dicey.
You're in there with with youknow so many potential problems
to happen, and you don't knowhow your body's gonna accept the
(09:02):
changes, and you know, just somany things can happen.
And her thinking is well, I Ihave solutions that could help
you and definitely won't hurtyou.
And so it would make sense totry something like that before
you go and jump into a surgerythat you can't undo once you've
done.
And you know, like the standardof care.
(09:23):
Like when I first went into UCI,first guy I talked to was the
surgeon.
And his answer was, we're gonnagive you a little radiation
chemo, and then we're gonna cutthis thing out of you.
And I said, Okay, well, I didn'tknow any different.
So I'm just listening to him andtrying to evaluate and not
making any commitments, but justgathering information.
(09:44):
Then I go to the radiologist,first thing he says is, You do
not want surgery.
And I'm like, whoa, you know,you're you guys are on the same
team, you're working out of thesame same clinic, and and one's
telling me one thing, one'stelling me something else.
But then the radiologist says,Well, what we need to give you
is 30 to 40 high dose radiationalong with a little chemo, and
(10:09):
that will probably make it soyou won't need the surgery.
And then I go do in research onthat, and I go, Well, that's
gonna leave me potentiallydehabilitated, maybe lose my
voice, maybe not be able toswallow, maybe be stuck on a
feeding tube all my life, maybemy teeth fall out, maybe bones
break.
There's all these potentialproblems, and there's good
(10:33):
evidence that cancer couldreturn in a different place, a
different way.
It also is shown to be a prettyeffective treatment for most
people.
Okay, great.
I gotta weigh all that together.
And then I talk to the chemodoctor, and she's like, Yeah, I
work with the radiologist, we dothis thing together.
Then I meet Dr.
Hoffman and the group, um, andwe start talking about maybe
(11:00):
some other solutions that um canbe combined together using the
best of some of the Westernstandard of care, along with
some of these discoveries withdiet and even these oxidative
therapies that Dr.
Exeme and some of the others areworking with.
(11:21):
And we came up with a a protocolthat worked for me and would
probably work for anybody thathad the problem I had, you know,
the way that I had it.
For anybody else, I don't know,but I know that like we were
able to look and say it was anecessity.
I had to come up with somethingthat worked because it was going
(11:42):
to kill me otherwise.
So it was really, I didn't havea whole lot of choice.
I had to act and find something,but we found something that was
very unlikely to have a lastingnegative effect and might do a
really good job at solving theproblem, right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
Well, Joe, um, and and and your point is is good,
and the thing is the bottom lineof what you say is the cancer
patient has to do homework likeyou did.
So surgery is standard care,radiation is standard care,
(12:23):
chemo is standard care, acombination of any of the above,
all standard care.
There's a lot of options forstandard care.
So uh a cancer patient has to dohomework or consult with people
that'll tell them how should Isay the informed truth that you
(12:50):
don't have to do all thesethings at once.
There is a very uh widely usedprotocol, what's called
neo-adjuvant chemotherapy.
That means chemotherapy beforeyou do something else.
Exactly.
Surgery, radiation, and thiswill have the least damage to
(13:18):
you among all the others, andyou can always go to the other
parts of standard care radiationsurgery if the knee management
chemo doesn't work.
So my point is there's a a apretty good menu to choose for
standard care, and you're allwithin standard care.
(13:43):
And so, but my previous pointwas um we still need to stay
within the confines of standardcare.
One one part of it uh ormultiple parts, we can't give up
standard care um and and expectto have a good outcome because
(14:11):
some Mel Gibson says so, or somequack that has a program says
so.
Um so the cancer patient, thepoor cancer patient without
doing a lot of homework is atthe mercy of the oncologist.
(14:37):
Right.
And the oncologist can be reallycapricious.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:43):
Um what they're gonna prescribe, and it's very
easy for the cancer patient tosay, okay, doc, whatever you
say, I got cancer, help me out.
And he the oncologist says,sure, I'm gonna help you out.
And I'm sure the oncologistmeans well.
But yeah, it's the cancerpatient whose life is on the
(15:05):
line, not the oncologist.
So the cancer patient, unlessthe cancer patient does a lot of
homework, they're at the mercyof the system.
The system means well, but itdoesn't work that well.
(15:27):
Um true.
So and a lot of folks they don'thave the wherewithal to do the
homework.
They're they're just puttingthemselves at the mercy.
Well, and another a lot offolks, I think, that may not be
doing homework could do it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
They need encouragement, they're not gonna
do it on their own.
They need this podcast or theyneed our Zoom meeting.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
The community is the two million people who are gonna
get cancer in the United Statesthis year.
How many are gonna be on eitherof those?
Hundred?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Not enough.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:10):
Um the situation is just out of control.
Uh we try to help one person ata time.
Um that's all we can do.
I'm I'm so happy to help oneperson at a time.
Um well, speaking of that, it'dbe great to help a thousand at a
(16:35):
time, but we just don't havethat ability.
SPEAKER_00 (16:39):
Well, speaking of one person at a time, you know,
the community to me is soimportant that not only just for
you know information fromtrusted sources, these are all
people that have gone through itor they're sharing their
nobody's more trustworthy than acancer patient telling about his
(16:59):
or her cancer.
Exactly.
And and so when I when I sit inthat room with these people, I'm
I'm talking, you know, it'sfunny.
Before I was diagnosed, youknow, you hear about the club,
right?
You know, you can't you don'tknow until you know.
And once you get it, you'reright.
It is, it's true.
Nobody can understand what it islike unless you've gone through
(17:22):
it because you just can't.
But when you're in a room ofpeople who have all gone through
it and and are going through itand and and are dealing with the
you know long-term lifetimeeffects of this, it's it's it's
a room that you just can feelokay to be vulnerable.
You feel you feel like you cantell them anything.
(17:43):
And I think that's reallyimportant.
Um, you know, the the stakes areso high with the cancer patient
that you know, if if somebodydecides, well, I'm gonna just
kind of take a chance and go doa thing, and maybe it works a
little bit, but then that cancercomes back, it comes back
(18:05):
stronger and meaner and morecapable and ready to spread.
And and every time you miss withcancer, it's more likely to come
back and and spread throughoutyour body and do you some real
damage.
So you've got to come up withyour best plan the first time
out if you're pot if you canpossibly, because each time you
(18:27):
miss, it just gets worse.
And and it's it's it's troublingfor me, you know.
I came from a place where Ithought, well, you know, let's
just go at this from the mostnatural, you know, there's an
answer for everything in a planthere and there.
And and yeah, maybe that's true,but we haven't figured that out,
(18:47):
that's for sure.
And the truth is you gotta yougotta do the research and figure
out what's the best thing forwhat you got, and go at it 100%.
Don't mess around and and uhdabble with something when you
when you can hit it hard.
Um now this this group thatwe're in to me is one of the
(19:10):
most important resources, asidefrom you and all the work and
the research you've done and theyou know developing the
methionase and really gettingthis diet down to an art and a
science.
Um, but the people sharing theirexperiences with this has been
powerful.
And we find over and over againthat when somebody stays on a
(19:33):
protocol that works, generallythey stay on a course, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:39):
And then all of a sudden the diligent people do
better, there's no question.
Yeah, it's not a hundredpercent, but that's that's the
trend.
SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
What with with these people we're talking about,
generally, you know, you got Dr.
Exume that's still battlingmetastasis, and he's going at a
really aggressive chess game,and and and it can be like that.
I think a couple of the otherones are in a pretty difficult
spot that that they're findingtheir way through.
(20:10):
But most of them, if you can getit to where you got it under
control even a little bit, youcan find an answer that keeps it
there.
But then every once in a while adoctor makes a change and all of
a sudden things start goingcrazy.
And we've got one of the membersthat we're dealing with now.
And why don't you share thestory?
(20:31):
Um, because I think it'simportant for people to realize
that even though you might be ona path where you've you're
you're in remission or whateverthey call it, you've got it
resolved, and you're on somesort of a maintenance program,
it's you're never done, andyou've got to be diligent and
mindful the whole way through.
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
Well, we have one patient.
I the story is not not fullyclear yet, right?
But it seems like this lady whohad metastatic breast cancer, it
really looked like it was verymuch toward remission, stable
(21:16):
for two or three years.
All of a sudden in June, herblood marker numbers, biomarker
numbers started just climbingevery few weeks.
And the PET scan showed spreadto the bones, to the abdomen.
(21:38):
And I talked with her, and shesays, Yeah, I went down to the
oncologist put me on low dose ofthe drug I was taking.
I think the the the numbersstarted going up in June.
I think she's maybe not clearexactly when she started the low
(21:59):
dose, but I suspect it was inJune.
Anyway, she went on low dose andher numbers are just climbing.
I mean, if this story is correctand it's easy for the patient to
get confused.
SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
But if this story is correct, it's a lesson for
everybody.
When you when the doctor givesyou, oh, we're gonna change this
or that, get a second opinion.
I mean, here's the lady underunder, she's been doing so well,
(22:36):
and all of a sudden the numbersgo up every two, three weeks.
The blood marker the biomarkersin the blood for the breast
cancer.
So I don't know.
This this this isn't anunfinished story right now, and
(22:58):
but I have a feeling at leasteven if it's not all exactly
what I'm saying, what I I'mtrying to get across is when
you're doing well and the doctortells you to change something,
get another opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
SPEAKER_02 (23:21):
I don't know where they come from.
SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
Um and was the drug that she was on, did it have
some kind of a lasting negativeside effect?
SPEAKER_02 (23:32):
Yeah, it at high dose it was very nasty.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Uh she couldn't get off the couch.
It's a very popular drug, veryexpensive.
It's called NHER2.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
So at high dose, she couldn't get off the couch.
So a couple years ago, she wentto medium dose and has done
really well.
And what she told me that todayor yesterday, oh, I went the
doctor or whatever his name is,told me to go down a low dose.
(24:08):
And I think she's not quiteclear when that happened, right?
But I surmised that it's it'sdirectly concordant with going
down to the low dose and thenumbers going up.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
It makes sense.
I mean, there she didn't changeanything else.
I mean, she's still on the diet,she's still doing everything
else right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
And why would a cancer, you know, steady eddy
all these years all of a suddenmake a kind of a discontinuous
change?
Right.
I don't know.
We'll learn more.
But my what I want to say hereis you know, we'll get more
information on this story andand share with the folks.
(24:52):
But my point is when the doctells you to change something
and you you're doing well, youknow, if it ain't broke, don't
fix it.
Um you know, I I don't know.
I don't know sometimes wherepeople are coming from.
(25:13):
But the my point is the cancerpatient has to be so aware, so
diligent, study hard.
Your life depends on it.
You can't just leave it yourlife in the hands of somebody
else.
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Well, it it it couldn't be true or words, you
know.
That as as well-meaning as adoctor is, he's never gonna put
the attention to your case theway you would.
Of course not.
You can't, it's not even apossibility.
So he's got whatever, five, tenminutes, maybe half an hour to
go look through your file, makesome decisions based on his
(25:54):
knowledge and understanding ofthe uh of it all.
And I'm sure he's always gonnado the best that he knows, but
that's it.
That's that's that's what youget.
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
And even like you said, getting a second opinion
or or or more, you know, I wouldsay, you know, get you know, use
AI, get, you know, yeah, yeah,use every learn.
And now these days you can learnanything with AI.
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
You can AI is your tutor.
Agreed, agreed.
And there's, you know, there'sjust there's we have access to
literally all the information onthe planet at our fingertips
right now, aside from you know,bits and pieces of some
classified crap.
But other than that, it's allavailable.
We can access it one way oranother, the same information
(26:45):
the doctors have, and you know,even more because the doctors
aren't going to go outside oftheir you know, their curriculum
and the the or their comfortzone.
Comfort zone, you know.
That's that's that's the waythey're trained.
SPEAKER_02 (26:58):
They go to their conferences and they but the
good thing is some doctors likeDr.
Song are different.
You got a story in UC Irvine,and and that was the gospel
truth, and it turns out itwasn't.
That there is other things todo.
This particular patient now hasbeen told there's no more drugs
left for her, only clinicaltrials.
(27:20):
Wow.
And you and I, we're not medicaloncologists, but we know that
isn't right at all.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
We know it.
So you put on your Superman capeonce again.
You gotta hold a doctor's song,and he agreed to see her.
SPEAKER_02 (27:40):
Yeah, he didn't agree to take her yet.
Oh no, but at least I I told heryou gotta be real indignant and
really angry at your presentoncologist.
How you know, and oh, she said,Oh worry, I can handle that.
Well, this this Sundayhopefully, hopefully on the
call.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
I'm gonna give her uh uh a lesson of what I
discovered worked with this guy,and he's a great guy, and if you
can understand, kind of, youknow, I mean, obviously, I only
know him for you know the timeI've spent with him, but I I
know what I did and the responsethat I've gotten from him, and
(28:22):
uh a few things.
Number one, presenting you know,the the injustice of you know,
you know you know an answer thatmight help you, and your doctor
wouldn't help you, and that's sothere's that injustice.
That's the point, Joe.
SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
Exactly.
Your doctor wouldn't help you,and this is what is happening to
this lady, exactly as whathappened to you.
Yes, he's he said, there'snothing more, all we got is
clinical trials, right?
And and and I said to herclinical trial, you're just
gonna be a big mouse, right?
(28:59):
Yeah, you have no idea.
It's not for your benefit, it'sfor the doc.
In this case, he's an academicUCLA doc to maybe become more
promoted, yeah.
Uh a drug company to make morebillions, right?
Uh-uh.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
No, absolutely.
It it's it's the basically thesame system, the UC system.
It's all you know, it's allfunded the same, they're all
motivated by the same things.
It's not necessarily a badthing, it's just not necessarily
good for you if you're in a spotlike hers.
And you know, um, so that's thethe the most important thing,
(29:39):
but also her willingness to getout there and do the hard thing,
whatever it is.
You know, when I told him, I go,I'll do whatever it takes.
If I gotta move down to SanDiego, I'll move down to San
Diego.
You tell me what I need to do,and I'll do it.
And when he saw my persistenceand willingness to what
whatever, I want to I want.
(30:00):
To live and I want, I want, Ihave an answer, and we can do
this together.
And he's he he his words to mewere I'm not gonna leave you
stranded.
Those were his actual words,yeah.
Beautiful words, yeah.
And once he said that to me, Iwas like, Okay, I'm gonna be all
right.
Like, you know, like thatlifeline got thrown to me, and I
grabbed on, and I'm not gonna gounder.
(30:22):
So, yeah, hopefully, um, youknow, she lives further away
than I do, and and hopefullythat's not gonna be an obstacle.
One more hour, big deal.
And she's willing to do what ittakes, and it really doesn't
matter where you live if you'rewilling to go and do what it
takes.
So uh to me, it's like you know,look, if you got a far doctor's
(30:44):
appointment, I mean you're gonnago to Japan for your medpack.
Exactly.
I couldn't go farther, really.
Like, that's about as far as youcan go, and I'm gonna do what it
takes, and I'm gonna raise upthe money, I'm gonna carve out
the time, I'm gonna get my assover there.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
And it's not that much money.
The whole thing will be under5k, including the and we will
just make it work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The$60 a night place.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
Um, and no, it's gonna well under$5k.
Yeah, and it's it's a it's avery solvable problem, and
that's that's the thing that tome, like when you get a mindset
that says, I'm gonna take thisall the way, and I go, I know
where I'm going.
I'm gonna have that MetPet thatshows me I'm at I got no cancer
(31:37):
in me, and we're gonna create agood solid maintenance program,
and I'm gonna follow it to theT, and we're gonna check back
every 18 to 24 months, and we'lljust make regular trips to Japan
and we'll we'll be on it.
We know what we got going on.
SPEAKER_02 (31:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
So hopefully, um, you know, she'll be able to
connect with Dr.
Song in a similar fashion that Idid.
And um, and and maybe, you know,maybe he comes up with something
that's not even on the menu thatthey even know.
Maybe there's a chemo answer,maybe there's uh maybe Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Soto will have something different for sure if
if if it's needed.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
Right, right, exactly.
And and who knows, maybe with umthis lady just going back on
that medium dose of the drugwould do what it needed to.
I mean, it may.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
And her oncologist is not willing to do it.
Wow, all right.
Well, I don't get it.
I don't know.
I there's some disconnect, or uhI'm not getting it.
Um I don't know, but her numbersare going up.
Well, hopefully she's going up.
June, July, August, September.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
Up so we gotta act quick.
That's that's the key.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
And the PET scan, bone mats, abdominal mats.
I showed her the new paper thatyou got, the newest one, Joe.
We went over that on PubMedtogether.
Okay, and she saw the before andthe after this breast cancer
(33:27):
lady who was just whole bodyfull of medicine.
The after picture was clean.
She says, I want to be likethat.
I says, Well, you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
That's perfect, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Um you know, this lady was told to go to hospice.
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
And and that's it.
They all you know, most most inthe developed world you get
first line chemo, mayberadiation, maybe surgery, you
get second line chemo.
You fail second line, not muchmore we can do for you, but
we'll put you on a clinicaltrial.
SPEAKER_01 (34:08):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (34:08):
You fail that hospice.
That's the way it is.
So this lady now is at the stageof clinical trial, and the
chance of that helping her isreally small, and then the next
thing that she's gonna be toldgo to hospice.
Yeah, that's unacceptable.
Oh my gosh, it's so awful, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah.
All right, and that's what we'rehere for.
Like you said, one patient at atime.
We're gonna jump in and doeverything we can, and um, that
includes research, it includesconnection, it includes you
know, support, emotional,mental, everything we can offer.
(34:50):
I mean, you know, at the end ofthe day, that that that will to
fight is is as important as theanswers that you get.
You gotta, you know, if you loseyour hope, everything falls to
shit real quick.
And we for sure you gotta keepthat from happening.
And uh, I'm looking forward tothis Sunday and and you know,
(35:11):
getting out there, you know, andyeah, you gotta give her a
little bit of tutoring.
SPEAKER_02 (35:15):
I think she's she gets it.
She she really gets it already,but she's a smart lady, you can
tell she yeah, but you know, youyou you've been through it with
the same doc.
You got him to take you on whenhe wasn't gonna.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
I'll share the nuance of what I've learned and
and and hopefully give her alittle bit of a a tool that that
she'll be able to pull from.
SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
Yeah.
So well, the bottom line is Dr.
Song is a kind man.
He's kind.
That's clear.
SPEAKER_01 (35:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
And he's very capable.
And yeah, he's been in thebusiness more than half a
century.
And he's on it.
Like, I mean, you look in evenjust in his in his clinic, he's
got books stacked all over theplace.
You can tell he's he's readingup on the latest things all the
time.
Like, he's on this, you know.
There's not he's no slouch whenit comes to this.
(36:12):
He's not just doing that sameold thing over and over again.
He's no, he's um, you know, evenlike you know, with the
immunotherapy, he he's I mean,that's cutting edge, Joe.
I know, and and we're working itin a way that's contrary to what
the studies have shown theirresults, which had all kinds of
(36:33):
negative side effects.
And what we're doing is, in myopinion, much more likely to
have a good result without thenegative side effects.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
And he's well, you haven't had any discernible side
effects so far.
SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (36:46):
And that's really good.
SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Yeah, and my my blood work is good.
Um, my immune system'sresponding well, and now that
I'm done with the chemo, I'mreally excited to see the blood
work start coming back strongerand stronger, you know, instead
of getting beating, absolutely.
It'll uh, you know, those thosemarkers that have been going
back and forth.
(37:08):
Hopefully, they're just gonnaget to that ultimate spot and
just stay that way.
Yeah.
So, well, Robert, as always,it's a it's great to have you
here.
You know, thank you, Joe.
SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
Great to be here every time.
We have a great discussion, wemove, we move forward.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Exactly.
And I I believe that we're gonnabe able to help this lady and um
and me too.
SPEAKER_02 (37:33):
I'm I I'm I'm I'm I'm 100% on that one.
We're gonna help her.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Um and also the the information you sent me, I
forwarded over to uh Dr.
Crowley, that compoundingpharmacist I was telling you
about.
Yeah, and he responded quickly.
He was really grateful I sentthat to him, and I know he's
gonna take his time and readthrough this stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
So, you know well, you know, this guy may be our
partner to make our ownhominics.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Yeah, I I am I I'm gonna let him read through this
stuff, and then I'm gonna talkto him about that project and
see what he thinks about it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:11):
But I'm I'm confident that's a great
connection, Joe.
SPEAKER_00 (38:16):
Yeah, and he's really versed with the gut
biome, and he works withpeptides, and the guy is
brilliant.
Like he as much as you know yourscience, this guy knows his
science, and he's been workingfor sure, he's been working with
um you know cannabis medicinefor a long time, and he knows a
lot of the the cutting edgeresearch with that, but he's
(38:38):
been working a lot with peptidesand gut biome, and it's all
really leading edge stuff.
So he's really interested inthis because it's new to him,
too.
SPEAKER_02 (38:52):
Okay, well, we we need people like him on the team
desperately.
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
Exactly.
Well, I'm gonna do what I can tobring him aboard, and uh Robert,
as always, I thank you fortaking your time to share with
us.
SPEAKER_02 (39:03):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
And we'll see you on Sunday.
You bet.
All right, take care.
Bye, everybody.
All right, it's been anotherepisode of the Healthy Living
Podcast.
I'm your host, Joe Grumba, and Iwant to thank all of our
listening listeners for joiningus, and we'll see you next time.
You bet.
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