July 18, 2025 • 37 mins
The fight against cancer takes a significant turn as the National Institutes of Health finally acknowledges decades of research on methionine restriction. Dr. Robert Hoffman shares how this breakthrough came about largely through one persistent patient's advocacy, culminating in the first-ever NIH symposium dedicated to exploring how methionine restriction can combat cancer.
"Every life is so precious that we can help," Dr. Hoffman emphasizes during this compelling conversation that bridges cutting-edge science with practical patient advocacy. The discussion reveals how methionine restriction research actually began at the NIH back in 1959, yet despite 2,000+ peer-reviewed studies, this approach remained largely overlooked by mainstream oncology until now.
Host Joe Grumbine shares his personal journey using methionine restriction alongside targeted chemotherapy for squamous cell carcinoma. His story offers a powerful contrast to conventional treatment protocols - instead of suffering through devastating side effects, Joe appears remarkably healthy just four months into treatment. "I've gone from death's door to people looking at me saying, 'Wow, that's a healthy guy,'" Joe reveals.
This episode delivers essential insights for anyone facing cancer or supporting loved ones through treatment. Both men emphasize the importance of informed decision-making and effective communication with medical professionals. Dr. Hoffman's reminder that "doctors are service providers and patients are customers" empowers listeners to take an active role in their treatment plans rather than passively accepting recommendations that may cause unnecessary suffering.
Whether you're dealing with cancer personally or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers hope through scientifically-backed alternatives that complement conventional approaches while potentially minimizing their harshest effects. Join the growing community exploring these options through the weekly Zoom discussions mentioned in the show notes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today we have back with us
Dr Robert Hoffman from theAnti-Cancer Foundation.
Robert, welcome back.
Thank you, joe, always glad tobe here.
Oh, it's great to have theseconversations.
I think a lot of people arelearning a lot, and I'm hoping
(00:23):
to create a pathway for peopleto find answers to their own
problems, whether it's cancer oranything else.
I think this is creating apathway that's helpful.
It's been a little while sincewe've sat together and, of
course, things keep happening.
As you know, this journey ofhealing just doesn't stop.
(00:45):
It either goes one direction orthe other.
We're trying to keep it movingforward in the healing side of
things, and I also wanted totalk about this series of
symposiums that the NIH has puton, and I thought that was
actually, even though maybe it'sa little underwhelming.
(01:07):
It's also very exciting to seethat people at this level are
having a conversation aboutmethionine and the methionine
restriction.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I think it's great, joe.
You know I've been in the field.
I've been studying methioninedependence, addiction,
restriction of cancer, whatever.
52 years, right, the first, theNIH putting on a symposium on
this topic.
I think it's amazing and I wantto.
(01:44):
In large part not all it's dueto one of our patients, dave.
Favaro who relentlessly wouldtelephone people at the NIH.
He himself is on a clinicaltrial at the NIH.
He goes there every few monthsto get a scanning for his
(02:06):
prostate cancer as part of thisclinical trial and we talked to
a few people that are leaders atthe NIH, in particular the
National Cancer Institute, andthey were very nice but not
committal.
(02:26):
Finally, dave got a hold of Iguess she's a program director
Dr Shi X-I, and she did it.
It took a while, took a fewmonths, but she got this
symposium going.
It took a while, took a fewmonths, but she got this
symposium going.
We've already had two sessionswith four or five talks in each
(02:56):
one by various people in DrShee's program who have received
NIH grants or NCI grants.
All the talks have beeninteresting.
There's going to be anothersession on July 29.
I'm told that I will be part ofthat.
(03:20):
I'm not sure what will be.
It's okay, I'd love to be partof it.
If I'm not, it's still good.
The very fact that it exists isa really good thing.
And let me tell you what'shappened on the human side.
So, dave Ferraro, you know he'sbeen going to the big clinical
(03:45):
center at the NIH.
It's called Building 10.
It's probably the greatesthospital in the world and he you
know he would talk to peopleabout what he's doing.
He's been taking methioninasefor two to three years.
He's been on a low methioninediet two to three years or more.
His prostate cancer is totallyunder control and you know
(04:13):
everybody.
He would talk to them.
Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh.
That was nice.
Then the last time he went there, he became a rock star.
Everybody in the clinic knewabout this symposia and Dave let
him know.
Yeah, because of me and Dr Sheeand every doctor started coming
(04:38):
in the room, nurses coming inthe room.
Everybody wanted to talk toDave, shake his hand.
I don't know if they asked forautographs or not.
Dave's now a rock star and itseems like it's common knowledge
around the whole NIH that thissymposium is ongoing.
I love it.
(05:01):
Due to certain restrictions incommunication that's been coming
out the last six months, right,right.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Oops, we're glitching here.
For some reason, I'm nothearing you right now.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
The steering committee of our Zoom is allowed
to be on it, but silent.
Zoom is allowed to be on it,but silent.
This is out of kind of fearabout communications
restrictions that have been putin since January or so.
Never used to be like thatRight.
So it's a kind of miracle and Isure it's going to spread
(05:48):
around the world.
I think it's all been recorded.
I don't know the plan, but it'sgoing to get out there.
There's no question it's goingto get out there.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So I think this is this exemplifies a couple of
things.
Number one you know Dave'spersistence and willingness to
get out there and keep tellinghis story and keep pushing.
I think that's instrumental.
You know, it's what I do, it'swhat you do, it's what so many
people that are that are tryingto further this knowledge out
(06:24):
there are doing.
We just keep trying to keeptalking to whoever will listen
and and you keep showing themthe truth and eventually, you
know you're going to breakthrough one time or another, but
, yeah, in a place where thepeople he got to break through
are connected and respected in away that really can have a
lasting effect, and that was,you know, just, it's a miracle
(06:49):
and just a lot of hard work allat the same time.
I think it's great.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, I don't know what the plan is for the next
symposium.
We're supposed to get it onMonday.
We didn't get it yet.
To get it on Monday we didn'tget it yet.
If they indeed include me, asthey said they would, I'm going
to feature the patients, and oneof them is going to be you.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So I'm hopeful.
But even if that doesn't cometo be, it's been fantastic,
something that never happenedbefore it's happened.
The field itself is 65 yearsold.
It started in that verybuilding, building 10, in 1959,
with Dr Sugi Murad visiting fromJapan and Dr Greenfield's lab
(07:43):
way back then, and he discoveredyou take methionine out of the
rat chow and the tumors in therat slowed way down more than
taking anything else out of therat chow.
That's how it all began.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Nice, right there, I love it.
I love it.
Well, I'm getting a taste ofthe frustration that you face of
knowing this knowledge andsharing this knowledge and just
nobody knows about it.
And everywhere I go, I talkabout my story and everywhere I
go, people look at me with ablank look and whether it's a
(08:16):
doctor, a practitioner, a cancerpatient or somebody who's a
caretaker, but but you know, Ijust keep telling the story one
by one, refer them to thepublications, joe, I do.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
There's now 2,000 papers on PubMed, which is
available to everybody in thecosmos.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Since 1959, 2,000 papers on methionine dependence,
methionine addiction,methionine restriction Yep.
2,000 papers on methioninedependence, methionine addiction
, methionine restriction 2,000papers.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
This is peer-reviewed .
You know it's a penetrationproblem, but the very fact of
this symposium means things arechanging Right exactly, are
changing right exactly, and andthe people that are taken
seriously, or or at leastconsidered, are the ones that
(09:10):
are hosting this.
So that means that conversationis going to be shined in a
little bit different light, andI think that's and and they give
money.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yes, exactly, uh.
So you know it's extremelycompetitive to get the money
right but every speaker.
So far there's been 10 or 12 ofthem and they're all.
They all have grants from thenational cancer institute, I
(09:40):
think Institute, I think underDr Shih's program, I believe.
So it's.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Well, imagine this All of a sudden, they start
awarding grants to theseexperiments on methionine
restriction and even maybemethionine is and then, all of a
sudden, we start maybe leadingthe way to human trials.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Joe, unofficial trials are ongoing.
You know, we get the trials,that's okay, it's good.
We don't get the trials, hey,we're going forward.
We new.
I have two, three new patientsevery day.
I love it.
So around the world, around theworld, um so definitely,
(10:34):
definitely.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, I know that just in my communication from
this podcast and just from beingsomebody who talks to everybody
, I come near more and more.
I got two people this last weekthat are both stage four
survivors and I got them toconsider the diet.
I got them both on hominids andI've invited them both to the
(10:57):
call and I told them about you.
I've given them your contactinformation.
Everybody's free to call me.
Yeah, I tell them, I give themyour email and I said just send
them an email, give them my cellphone too, joe, I wanted to be
okay, that that was okay.
I didn't want to, just yeah,give it out what the heck.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
What am I going to do ?
Hide the cell phone and nottalk to people.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I love it.
No, never take that libertyunless I know I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I understand that and I appreciate it.
I'm here to help.
I'm 81.
I don't know how much longerI'm going to be around, but, boy
, every minute I want to helppeople, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
That's the attitude that I think we all have.
I think that the cancersurvivors and the cancer victors
, we all have this incrediblelust for life.
We love to live and we want tostay that way and we want to
take our life and make itmeaningful and by helping other
people that are otherwise, youknow, going down a road that's
(11:59):
going to lead them to sufferingand a short life.
Well, what if you could affectthat in a positive way?
I think it's.
Well, we are.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Joe, we are.
And you know what does it sayin the Bible you save one life,
you save everybody.
I mean, every life is soprecious that we can help.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
And every person that you reach you know they're
going to tell one more person.
I have people now calling me.
I get two or three new people aweek that are reaching out to
me.
Somebody told somebody and theword's starting to get out.
Boy, that's good.
I take every call, I talk tothem, I tell them what I can and
even today I had some peoplesetting up for a retreat over
the weekend and this one guyjust talking to me.
(12:43):
Next thing, you know, I'mtelling him my story.
Next thing, you know, you knowhe thought he knew a thing and
he doesn't have cancer, but itdoesn't matter, he's a smart guy
, he knows plenty of people whodo a whole bunch of his
relatives do.
There's nobody free of thisdisease no, absolutely not, and
and and so.
So this takes me to anothertopic.
(13:05):
So I've been talking about ourSunday Zoom call since I joined
it.
I think it's one of the mostpowerful groups of people I've
ever been a part of, and themethioninease and all of these
people are free in discussingtheir stories and their other
solutions on top.
You know the methioninerestriction and methioninease is
(13:32):
a part of it, but we're alwaysadding things on top of it.
Whether it's oxygen therapy orchemotherapy or exercise or
whatever.
We're doing things incombination to solve the problem
.
There's no limit of things wecan do to help Exactly, and so
these people that are sharingtheir personal experiences
(13:53):
that's knowledge that you can'tget out of a book or a study or
anything, or a scientific paper,no no, no, this is a real deal,
directly from the patient.
Yeah, and so that's huge.
And I've joined a couple ofother groups.
I've sat in on the Nori group alittle bit and they've got some
good stuff they talk about.
I've I just joined a group.
(14:14):
It's a it's a Facebook group,but it is specifically a
squamous cell carcinoma patientgroup and there are 14 or 1500
active members in this and16,000 people in it and I just
sat in initially.
I'm just listening before Ijump in and start talking, but
(14:35):
I'm listening and you know,mostly what I'm hearing are
people that have gone throughthe same radiation chemo
treatment they want to give meand talking about the suffering
and the pain and the anguishthat they've gone through and
the feeding tubes and the weightloss Worse than the cancer,
worse than the cancer Exactly.
And that's something that Ijust want people that are
(14:58):
listening to this to considerthat if you find yourself with
cancer and you go to the doctorwhich I recommend, go to the
doctor, have them.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
You got to go to the doctor.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So so I'm not against any ofthat, but take your time and
listen to what they'resuggesting to do, cause they
can't make you do anything, andresearch it and learn about it.
And and as I did, you know, Italked to a surgeon and he said
we need to give you radiationchemo and then I'm going to
operate.
Then I talked to the radiationguy and he says oh no, don't get
(15:31):
the surgery, you're going to bedisfigured and let's just do my
radiation and chemo.
And then I talked to the chemodoctor.
She says yeah, listen to theradiation guy.
And then I talked to you andthese other people and we came
up with another answer thatbasically left me the same as I
started, except for I don't haveso much hair, but I don't have
a tumor either.
(15:51):
And so you know everybody Italked to today.
I just talked to a kid todaywho said, you know I was telling
him about, you know, the lastsix months and where I was at
three months ago.
And he says wow, when I firstsaw you I said you're a very fit
and healthy guy.
(16:12):
That's what his firstimpression was of me and that's
only 10 weeks after I began thistreatment and less than four
months of me being on themethionine restriction diet and
taking the methionine.
It's only four months since Istarted that and you know I've
gone from on death's door topeople are looking at me going,
wow, that's a healthy guy andthat's huge.
(16:34):
You know most people that gothrough cancer treatment.
They spend the rest of theirlife frail and weak and not ever
going.
No need Look at Hozumi, look atyou, yes absolutely, and I think
that's the the critical partabout sharing our story the
radiation and the surgery.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, chemo did it all , along with methionine ace,
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So I wanted to share a little bit about the story.
I had my follow up with thedoctor, with the medical
oncologist, after the CT scanand I have still the follow up
in person with the radiooncologist next Thursday and
(17:22):
they're doing.
You know already what he'sgoing to say, I know exactly,
but I'm going to record it andI'm going to you got to go, you
got to go, I'm going to go, I'mgoing to give it another shot.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Listen and discuss and tell what you want.
This is what I want.
Exactly Help me get what I want.
If I need your radiation, I'mgoing to let you know Exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
And you know I'm doing it in a way that's not
adversarial and I always amclear that my goal is to do the
most amount of good with theleast amount of harm.
Can I say something Sure?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I don't, before I forget it.
Yeah, yeah, All these doctors,they are service providers,
right, and they're very, veryeducated, very highly
intelligent, very highly skilled.
I have all the respect in theworld for them, right, but
they're service providers,correct.
(18:18):
And who are we, the patients?
We're the customer.
Yes, we're the customer.
We're the customer.
We're either paying out of ourown pocket, or we're paying from
the insurance that we get fromwherever, or we're paying from
the Medicare that comes to us.
We're paying, yes.
So we got to have the final saywe're the customer.
(18:42):
Yep, don't sell me something Idon't want and I'm paying for it
.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Exactly, Exactly, and that's really been the key of
my message is listen to thedoctor, do your own research,
evaluate it and make a goodchoice, and you know there's
going to be good and maybe notso good information from
everybody you talk to.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Well, you go out and you want to buy a house.
You look at this one and thatone and the other one and this
one and you find the one youlike.
The same with the doctor.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes, exactly.
So that's kind of where I'm at.
So I'll be kind of brief aboutthe conversation, because it's
kind of what you would haveexpected.
And I walked through.
She walked through the CT scanand her interpretation was that
the primary tumor at the back ofmy tongue and the secondary
tumor on the side of my neck aregone and that there is still a
(19:35):
mass in two lymph nodes.
And I said to her well, okay, Iunderstand that.
She says I'm actuallydisappointed that they didn't go
away entirely.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well, at least one of the masses, or the total, two
masses, whatever had a verysignificant, at least a third,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah, it affected them for sure and I
mentioned that.
I says, well, they're a lotsmaller than they were number
one.
And the truth is they couldstill be shrinking and we don't
know the answer to that.
And the other truth is we don'tknow what it is.
We know that it could benecrotic tissue.
It could be non-cancerous.
(20:17):
Only the MedPet scan is going totell us the real story PET scan
is going to tell us the realstory and that's really kind of
what she said.
She goes well, even if we did abiopsy we wouldn't know.
We have to get the whole thingout.
And I says, well, I don't wantDead tissue, right, exactly.
So that's, I got her toacknowledge that number one.
We don't know that it'scancerous and we also don't know
(20:40):
that it's not continuing toshrink until we check it again.
And so she, she acknowledgedthat and and then I went on and
I talked about the differenttests.
I talked about that Signateratest that you talked about.
I talked about the liquidbiopsy test.
I talked about the squamouscell carcinoma antigen test that
(21:02):
they have.
There's a number of.
There's a circulating tumortest, tumor cell test, and she
really kind of said well, thatNAVDX test tells me what I need
to know.
And so she kind of poo-pooedthat and said she wasn't going
to order any further tests.
I says, all right, well, I'llwork on that myself, and it's
(21:23):
okay, she didn't have a problemwith me doing it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
And if folks know about the Life Extension website
, you can order tests.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Exactly, and if you just know what to ask for, it's
not that difficult of a process.
So I'm in the process ofdetermining which tests I can
get and which ones how often Ican get a whole lot of them
Exactly.
So what I told her is you know,her plan is for me to continue
(21:55):
with this high dose radiationand it is five days a week for
six weeks and they strap youdown with this shield, they
build around your head and chestand they blast the heck out of
you.
And I told her, and then youget chemotherapy on top of that.
(22:15):
And she said well, thechemotherapy by itself isn't
going to do the job, but ithelps.
Look what it did so far.
I know exactly and it's.
Look what it did so far.
I know exactly and it's.
I don't see the logic.
I know, and that was where Iwas like okay, I'm just trying
to get where she's coming fromso that I know what to even
mention or not mention.
(22:35):
It's coming from the guidelines, joe, I know, and that's what I
really came to realize.
I talked to her aboutimmunotherapy, which I found in
several papers that determinedthat there's an immunotherapy
chemotherapy combination that isused with my cancer.
And she says, well, we can't dothat because you're not
(22:56):
metastatic, and that's the only.
But you are metastatic.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I know it's in the lymph nodes.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It's in my lymph nodes exactly, but they're not
classifying it like that rightnow.
And she said, well, it's notapproved for the cancer.
You have the way you have itand we couldn't even get it
through insurance if we wantedit right now.
And it says, well, that I canunderstand, but geez, would you
not even?
You don't know what you'regoing to get through insurance.
(23:23):
I know why, wouldn't you even?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
try.
Maybe you present it correctlyand you might have a chance.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Well, and that's why I'm still going.
So what I've been doing andwith this group I've been
getting tidbits of other drugs.
People are using other chemocombinations.
Not everybody's doing theradiation chemo.
Most people have not talkedabout diet or herbs or certain.
(23:48):
I've not seen any reference tomethionine yet, but I'll be
integrating it.
I'm just trying to get myselfinto the group without being,
you know, not.
This is the squamous cell group.
Yeah, yeah, and it's all aroundthe world.
This is people from around theworld.
It's an incredibly big group.
Yeah, and boy, I mean to hearthe horror stories.
Oh, it's mostly horror storiesand a lot of people you know.
(24:12):
The biggest horror story I'mhearing is somebody gets
diagnosed and they get a biopsyor they get a test that comes
back positive and then theirdoctor doesn't move.
They say that they're waitingfor months and they're not
getting any cause for treatment.
And I'm just like this is acancer that the more I learn
(24:36):
about it, the more aggressive Irealize it is and it wants to
metastasize and it's good at itand it spreads to your lungs, it
spreads to your lymph nodes andit gets all around your body
quickly if you give it a chance,and for a doctor to to not
decide that, wow, as soon as youdiscover something that's this
(24:58):
deadly and this and thisaggressive, why you wouldn't
stop what you're doing and begina treatment of some sort is
beside.
I can't understand it, so Idon't know.
Well, it's in different placesaround the world, it's not just
here in the States, and you knowthere's a myriad of different
situations, but I just realized.
(25:20):
And then there's people who youknow they don't have insurance
or good insurance and they'regetting evicted while they're.
You know, people don't realizewhen you're getting these
treatments it's, it'sdebilitating.
Even the chemo knocked me outpretty bad and you can't really
work, you can't do what younormally are doing because
you're busy fighting this thing.
And so if you don't have somekind of cushion or some kind of
insurance, you know people arelosing their homes, they're
(25:43):
losing their you know theirlivelihoods, at the same time
Very unfortunate, yeah.
So, understanding that I've got, you know, I've got empathy,
but really what I have now is adetermination.
I believe.
In my own research I found outthat this three drug cocktail
that did so much good for me isapproved for up to six doses and
(26:07):
before it has a toxic level,and I don't know if that's all
at once or just over an overload.
And so I realized that I haveto go to the medical records in
(26:30):
order to get the images for myCT scans, which I'm going to be
doing this coming Thursday.
So I have to go and get a chemoor a port flush.
They have to run this somethingthrough me to make sure that it
doesn't clog, because I'm goingto keep the port in until I
know I'm done.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It has to be patent, as they say.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah.
So they say every four to sixweeks.
I got to get that done.
So I'm getting that done andI'm meeting with the radio
oncologist.
I'm going to present to him thesame things I presented to her
radio oncologist.
I'm going to present to him thesame things I presented to her
and the way I'm going to offerthis is number one I still have
not gotten my dental clearancebecause I couldn't do any dental
work while I was getting thechemo.
So I've got to begin thatprocess again.
(27:12):
That gives me a solid reasonwhy I can't begin this.
But number two I'm just going tolay it out for him that I've
got another scan in three monthsscheduled and I most definitely
want to see what happensbetween now and three months.
And the two tumors are gone, thetwo masses in my lymph nodes
(27:33):
have shrunk.
So the worst thing that's goingto happen is we'll notice some
change for the negative and thenI would make a decision of what
I'm going to do next.
Change for the negative andthen I would make a decision of
what I'm going to do next.
But I think it's rational and Idon't think it's adversarial
and I think that you know, Idon't want to lose these people
(27:55):
and say, well, we can't treatyou anymore because you're not
listening to us.
I'm just that can happen, Iknow that and that's what I'm
trying to make sure doesn'thappen.
So I'm not approaching them inan adversarial way at all, I'm
just saying, look, I think it'sbest that we just sit on this
for a minute.
We've come so far, I'm doingfantastic, I know what the
negative side effects are and inorder for me to agree to that,
(28:16):
it has to be a pretty diresituation and I don't believe
that's going to happen.
It has to be.
There's no other way.
Right, exactly that would bethe treatment of last resort,
and I've got a lot of.
You've run out of chemo, yeah,and you're still growing.
Exactly Okay, turn on theradiation Right.
So now my mission is to.
(28:38):
I'm going to get these scanreports.
I'm going to bring them to DrCastro.
Hopefully he'll see me andagree to work.
He'll see you.
You may have to wait a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
You may have to make a little bit of noise.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
We'll do what we got to do.
But he said something that wasconcerning to me when my tumor
was big and I told him about youknow we up with the, with the
chemo treatment, and that theyagreed to do it.
It was really just before I gotthe port installed that I saw
him last and he said you need todo that radiation because they
(29:14):
have to do it or they're notgoing to be able to treat you,
and he seemed like he was verypositive of me taking that
radiation.
So I hope.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Well, you know he's probably had good experience
with it, maybe, but, joe, thatwas before you had this
fantastic response Exactly whenhe saw me last I was, that was
Joe 1.0.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Exactly, exactly.
So I'm hoping that when he seesme today or when he sees me
soon, he'll see the differenceof what we did and he
understands the methioninerestriction and the methionine
A's, he accepts it, heunderstands it as well as
anybody.
Exactly so.
Finally, I've got one doctorout of all of them that I've
(29:59):
talked to that even know whatI'm talking about and and accept
that as a positive piece of thepuzzle.
So that's kind of where we'reat.
I feel positive about that andI know.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Joe, I would if it were me.
I'd find some doc that willgive me another three cycles of
the same three, the samecocktail you've gotten so far,
to get as much out of thatcocktail as you can.
Go as far as you can with thatcocktail.
I totally agree.
There's a good chance that it'sgoing to be all gone by then,
(30:35):
and if it's not all gone, thenwe got to do plan B Right, and
it might be another cocktail orit might be.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Finally, we go to the radiation and I I'm looking at
this immunotherapy chemocombination that that is being
used um and that would certainlybe preferable to the radiation
if I've, if I can get that.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
The trouble is, like the doc said, the immunotherapy
is incredibly expensive.
Oh, I didn't know that.
10,000 a round, I don't know.
So, to get the insurance Got it, go with it, I don't know.
Okay, okay, let's just go bylogic, right, just stupid logic,
(31:21):
simple logic.
Right, just stupid logic,simple logic.
Hey, I've had three treatmentsand I've got a tremendous
response.
Right, literature says hey, youcan probably get another three
before the toxicity really kicksin.
Right, can't I just try anotherthree?
Right, exactly, I'll, probablycan go, we've gone so far
(31:41):
another three how far we can go.
We've gone so far.
You know, when Otani ispitching with a good fastball
and curveball, what's hesupposed to do?
Stop that and go to theknuckleball.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Exactly, I mean, you do what works.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
You know it's working .
Why we have to stop?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
what's working.
Yeah, it makes no sense, andthat's really.
I'm going to start with drcastro and then after that I'm
going to start researching umprobably find some integrative
yes, castro's an integrative guy.
Find another integrative guy,girl um, and I'll just start
setting up consultations until Ifind somebody that'll listen to
(32:22):
me.
You'll find somebody, you'llfind somebody, and you know I'm
persistent.
You know I'm not gonna give uptill I get.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Let me just give you a name, sure from long ago okay
his name is Tom Song, likesinging a song, okay, and I used
to know and he used to givepeople incredibly high-dose
chemo.
Okay, he was very controversialbut he held his ground.
(32:51):
Okay, my understanding, he'sstill practicing.
Okay, probably be close to myage up there.
All right, he's a good guy.
Keep him in mind.
He practices south of San Diegosomewhere.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Doesn't matter Wherever he is.
That's where I'll go.
Yeah, I'm not worried about it,I'll go where I need to.
Tom's Tom.
All right, I will look him up.
Well, Robert, I think we'vecovered a lot of ground.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you and I'm excited to hear
about this symposium and I feellike, little by little, the
information is getting out thereand I believe, more and more,
(33:29):
these cancers that are killingpeople are going to kill less
people and people are not goingto have to take such invasive,
devastating treatments.
They'll get more value out ofless, uh, harmful treatments.
And you know, we we just learnto adapt a lifestyle that
doesn't give that cancer a placeto live there you go, beautiful
(33:52):
all right, robert, well well,the.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
This is the new, this is the new way.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes, and you know, the one thing that I've gotten
is that when I'm talking tothese doctors, they're listening
to me because I'm talking theirlanguage and I'm using their
(34:17):
papers and I'm not just throwingwords out there.
They know that I've doneresearch and I'm You're not a
crank, you're not a quackExactly so if you can get
yourself up to a knowledgestream and the language that you
can have a civil conversationwith somebody, you'd be
surprised They'll.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
At least it's an informed conversation, Civil and
informed.
The most important thing is tobe informed.
There's PubMed out there.
Everybody can look at thepapers and no matter how much
jargon is in the paper, if youget through the summary you can
get the point.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Take your time and look it up.
Yeah, it's worth it, and andand AI can help translate it.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Oh, absolutely, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Well, Robert, I'm looking forward to talking to
you again on Sunday and rememberwe have a Zoom call on Sunday
and it's actually a link in allthe show notes of these podcasts
, so look down at the bottom ofthe notes.
You can click on that andeverybody's warmly welcomed.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
All right, robert Well, thank you so much, and you
have a great show, warmlywelcomed, exactly Excellent.
All right, robert Well, thankyou so much.
Thank you, joe.
Always great to be on Beautiful.
We'll see you all next time.
Folks See you in a few, allright.
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today we have back with us
Dr Robert Hoffman from theAnti-Cancer Foundation.
Robert, welcome back.
Thank you, joe, always glad tobe here.
Oh, it's great to have theseconversations.
I think a lot of people arelearning a lot, and I'm hoping
(00:23):
to create a pathway for peopleto find answers to their own
problems, whether it's cancer oranything else.
I think this is creating apathway that's helpful.
It's been a little while sincewe've sat together and, of
course, things keep happening.
As you know, this journey ofhealing just doesn't stop.
(00:45):
It either goes one direction orthe other.
We're trying to keep it movingforward in the healing side of
things, and I also wanted totalk about this series of
symposiums that the NIH has puton, and I thought that was
actually, even though maybe it'sa little underwhelming.
(01:07):
It's also very exciting to seethat people at this level are
having a conversation aboutmethionine and the methionine
restriction.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I think it's great, joe.
You know I've been in the field.
I've been studying methioninedependence, addiction,
restriction of cancer, whatever.
52 years, right, the first, theNIH putting on a symposium on
this topic.
I think it's amazing and I wantto.
(01:44):
In large part not all it's dueto one of our patients, dave.
Favaro who relentlessly wouldtelephone people at the NIH.
He himself is on a clinicaltrial at the NIH.
He goes there every few monthsto get a scanning for his
(02:06):
prostate cancer as part of thisclinical trial and we talked to
a few people that are leaders atthe NIH, in particular the
National Cancer Institute, andthey were very nice but not
committal.
(02:26):
Finally, dave got a hold of Iguess she's a program director
Dr Shi X-I, and she did it.
It took a while, took a fewmonths, but she got this
symposium going.
It took a while, took a fewmonths, but she got this
symposium going.
We've already had two sessionswith four or five talks in each
(02:56):
one by various people in DrShee's program who have received
NIH grants or NCI grants.
All the talks have beeninteresting.
There's going to be anothersession on July 29.
I'm told that I will be part ofthat.
(03:20):
I'm not sure what will be.
It's okay, I'd love to be partof it.
If I'm not, it's still good.
The very fact that it exists isa really good thing.
And let me tell you what'shappened on the human side.
So, dave Ferraro, you know he'sbeen going to the big clinical
(03:45):
center at the NIH.
It's called Building 10.
It's probably the greatesthospital in the world and he you
know he would talk to peopleabout what he's doing.
He's been taking methioninasefor two to three years.
He's been on a low methioninediet two to three years or more.
His prostate cancer is totallyunder control and you know
(04:13):
everybody.
He would talk to them.
Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh.
That was nice.
Then the last time he went there, he became a rock star.
Everybody in the clinic knewabout this symposia and Dave let
him know.
Yeah, because of me and Dr Sheeand every doctor started coming
(04:38):
in the room, nurses coming inthe room.
Everybody wanted to talk toDave, shake his hand.
I don't know if they asked forautographs or not.
Dave's now a rock star and itseems like it's common knowledge
around the whole NIH that thissymposium is ongoing.
I love it.
(05:01):
Due to certain restrictions incommunication that's been coming
out the last six months, right,right.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Oops, we're glitching here.
For some reason, I'm nothearing you right now.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
The steering committee of our Zoom is allowed
to be on it, but silent.
Zoom is allowed to be on it,but silent.
This is out of kind of fearabout communications
restrictions that have been putin since January or so.
Never used to be like thatRight.
So it's a kind of miracle and Isure it's going to spread
(05:48):
around the world.
I think it's all been recorded.
I don't know the plan, but it'sgoing to get out there.
There's no question it's goingto get out there.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So I think this is this exemplifies a couple of
things.
Number one you know Dave'spersistence and willingness to
get out there and keep tellinghis story and keep pushing.
I think that's instrumental.
You know, it's what I do, it'swhat you do, it's what so many
people that are that are tryingto further this knowledge out
(06:24):
there are doing.
We just keep trying to keeptalking to whoever will listen
and and you keep showing themthe truth and eventually, you
know you're going to breakthrough one time or another, but
, yeah, in a place where thepeople he got to break through
are connected and respected in away that really can have a
lasting effect, and that was,you know, just, it's a miracle
(06:49):
and just a lot of hard work allat the same time.
I think it's great.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, I don't know what the plan is for the next
symposium.
We're supposed to get it onMonday.
We didn't get it yet.
To get it on Monday we didn'tget it yet.
If they indeed include me, asthey said they would, I'm going
to feature the patients, and oneof them is going to be you.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I love it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So I'm hopeful.
But even if that doesn't cometo be, it's been fantastic,
something that never happenedbefore it's happened.
The field itself is 65 yearsold.
It started in that verybuilding, building 10, in 1959,
with Dr Sugi Murad visiting fromJapan and Dr Greenfield's lab
(07:43):
way back then, and he discoveredyou take methionine out of the
rat chow and the tumors in therat slowed way down more than
taking anything else out of therat chow.
That's how it all began.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Nice, right there, I love it.
I love it.
Well, I'm getting a taste ofthe frustration that you face of
knowing this knowledge andsharing this knowledge and just
nobody knows about it.
And everywhere I go, I talkabout my story and everywhere I
go, people look at me with ablank look and whether it's a
(08:16):
doctor, a practitioner, a cancerpatient or somebody who's a
caretaker, but but you know, Ijust keep telling the story one
by one, refer them to thepublications, joe, I do.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
There's now 2,000 papers on PubMed, which is
available to everybody in thecosmos.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Since 1959, 2,000 papers on methionine dependence,
methionine addiction,methionine restriction Yep.
2,000 papers on methioninedependence, methionine addiction
, methionine restriction 2,000papers.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
This is peer-reviewed .
You know it's a penetrationproblem, but the very fact of
this symposium means things arechanging Right exactly, are
changing right exactly, and andthe people that are taken
seriously, or or at leastconsidered, are the ones that
(09:10):
are hosting this.
So that means that conversationis going to be shined in a
little bit different light, andI think that's and and they give
money.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yes, exactly, uh.
So you know it's extremelycompetitive to get the money
right but every speaker.
So far there's been 10 or 12 ofthem and they're all.
They all have grants from thenational cancer institute, I
(09:40):
think Institute, I think underDr Shih's program, I believe.
So it's.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Well, imagine this All of a sudden, they start
awarding grants to theseexperiments on methionine
restriction and even maybemethionine is and then, all of a
sudden, we start maybe leadingthe way to human trials.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Joe, unofficial trials are ongoing.
You know, we get the trials,that's okay, it's good.
We don't get the trials, hey,we're going forward.
We new.
I have two, three new patientsevery day.
I love it.
So around the world, around theworld, um so definitely,
(10:34):
definitely.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, I know that just in my communication from
this podcast and just from beingsomebody who talks to everybody
, I come near more and more.
I got two people this last weekthat are both stage four
survivors and I got them toconsider the diet.
I got them both on hominids andI've invited them both to the
(10:57):
call and I told them about you.
I've given them your contactinformation.
Everybody's free to call me.
Yeah, I tell them, I give themyour email and I said just send
them an email, give them my cellphone too, joe, I wanted to be
okay, that that was okay.
I didn't want to, just yeah,give it out what the heck.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
What am I going to do ?
Hide the cell phone and nottalk to people.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I love it.
No, never take that libertyunless I know I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I understand that and I appreciate it.
I'm here to help.
I'm 81.
I don't know how much longerI'm going to be around, but, boy
, every minute I want to helppeople, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
That's the attitude that I think we all have.
I think that the cancersurvivors and the cancer victors
, we all have this incrediblelust for life.
We love to live and we want tostay that way and we want to
take our life and make itmeaningful and by helping other
people that are otherwise, youknow, going down a road that's
(11:59):
going to lead them to sufferingand a short life.
Well, what if you could affectthat in a positive way?
I think it's.
Well, we are.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Joe, we are.
And you know what does it sayin the Bible you save one life,
you save everybody.
I mean, every life is soprecious that we can help.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
And every person that you reach you know they're
going to tell one more person.
I have people now calling me.
I get two or three new people aweek that are reaching out to
me.
Somebody told somebody and theword's starting to get out.
Boy, that's good.
I take every call, I talk tothem, I tell them what I can and
even today I had some peoplesetting up for a retreat over
the weekend and this one guyjust talking to me.
(12:43):
Next thing, you know, I'mtelling him my story.
Next thing, you know, you knowhe thought he knew a thing and
he doesn't have cancer, but itdoesn't matter, he's a smart guy
, he knows plenty of people whodo a whole bunch of his
relatives do.
There's nobody free of thisdisease no, absolutely not, and
and and so.
So this takes me to anothertopic.
(13:05):
So I've been talking about ourSunday Zoom call since I joined
it.
I think it's one of the mostpowerful groups of people I've
ever been a part of, and themethioninease and all of these
people are free in discussingtheir stories and their other
solutions on top.
You know the methioninerestriction and methioninease is
(13:32):
a part of it, but we're alwaysadding things on top of it.
Whether it's oxygen therapy orchemotherapy or exercise or
whatever.
We're doing things incombination to solve the problem
.
There's no limit of things wecan do to help Exactly, and so
these people that are sharingtheir personal experiences
(13:53):
that's knowledge that you can'tget out of a book or a study or
anything, or a scientific paper,no no, no, this is a real deal,
directly from the patient.
Yeah, and so that's huge.
And I've joined a couple ofother groups.
I've sat in on the Nori group alittle bit and they've got some
good stuff they talk about.
I've I just joined a group.
(14:14):
It's a it's a Facebook group,but it is specifically a
squamous cell carcinoma patientgroup and there are 14 or 1500
active members in this and16,000 people in it and I just
sat in initially.
I'm just listening before Ijump in and start talking, but
(14:35):
I'm listening and you know,mostly what I'm hearing are
people that have gone throughthe same radiation chemo
treatment they want to give meand talking about the suffering
and the pain and the anguishthat they've gone through and
the feeding tubes and the weightloss Worse than the cancer,
worse than the cancer Exactly.
And that's something that Ijust want people that are
(14:58):
listening to this to considerthat if you find yourself with
cancer and you go to the doctorwhich I recommend, go to the
doctor, have them.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
You got to go to the doctor.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So so I'm not against any ofthat, but take your time and
listen to what they'resuggesting to do, cause they
can't make you do anything, andresearch it and learn about it.
And and as I did, you know, Italked to a surgeon and he said
we need to give you radiationchemo and then I'm going to
operate.
Then I talked to the radiationguy and he says oh no, don't get
(15:31):
the surgery, you're going to bedisfigured and let's just do my
radiation and chemo.
And then I talked to the chemodoctor.
She says yeah, listen to theradiation guy.
And then I talked to you andthese other people and we came
up with another answer thatbasically left me the same as I
started, except for I don't haveso much hair, but I don't have
a tumor either.
(15:51):
And so you know everybody Italked to today.
I just talked to a kid todaywho said, you know I was telling
him about, you know, the lastsix months and where I was at
three months ago.
And he says wow, when I firstsaw you I said you're a very fit
and healthy guy.
(16:12):
That's what his firstimpression was of me and that's
only 10 weeks after I began thistreatment and less than four
months of me being on themethionine restriction diet and
taking the methionine.
It's only four months since Istarted that and you know I've
gone from on death's door topeople are looking at me going,
wow, that's a healthy guy andthat's huge.
(16:34):
You know most people that gothrough cancer treatment.
They spend the rest of theirlife frail and weak and not ever
going.
No need Look at Hozumi, look atyou, yes absolutely, and I think
that's the the critical partabout sharing our story the
radiation and the surgery.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, chemo did it all , along with methionine ace,
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So I wanted to share a little bit about the story.
I had my follow up with thedoctor, with the medical
oncologist, after the CT scanand I have still the follow up
in person with the radiooncologist next Thursday and
(17:22):
they're doing.
You know already what he'sgoing to say, I know exactly,
but I'm going to record it andI'm going to you got to go, you
got to go, I'm going to go, I'mgoing to give it another shot.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Listen and discuss and tell what you want.
This is what I want.
Exactly Help me get what I want.
If I need your radiation, I'mgoing to let you know Exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
And you know I'm doing it in a way that's not
adversarial and I always amclear that my goal is to do the
most amount of good with theleast amount of harm.
Can I say something Sure?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I don't, before I forget it.
Yeah, yeah, All these doctors,they are service providers,
right, and they're very, veryeducated, very highly
intelligent, very highly skilled.
I have all the respect in theworld for them, right, but
they're service providers,correct.
(18:18):
And who are we, the patients?
We're the customer.
Yes, we're the customer.
We're the customer.
We're either paying out of ourown pocket, or we're paying from
the insurance that we get fromwherever, or we're paying from
the Medicare that comes to us.
We're paying, yes.
So we got to have the final saywe're the customer.
(18:42):
Yep, don't sell me something Idon't want and I'm paying for it
.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Exactly, Exactly, and that's really been the key of
my message is listen to thedoctor, do your own research,
evaluate it and make a goodchoice, and you know there's
going to be good and maybe notso good information from
everybody you talk to.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Well, you go out and you want to buy a house.
You look at this one and thatone and the other one and this
one and you find the one youlike.
The same with the doctor.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes, exactly.
So that's kind of where I'm at.
So I'll be kind of brief aboutthe conversation, because it's
kind of what you would haveexpected.
And I walked through.
She walked through the CT scanand her interpretation was that
the primary tumor at the back ofmy tongue and the secondary
tumor on the side of my neck aregone and that there is still a
(19:35):
mass in two lymph nodes.
And I said to her well, okay, Iunderstand that.
She says I'm actuallydisappointed that they didn't go
away entirely.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well, at least one of the masses, or the total, two
masses, whatever had a verysignificant, at least a third,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, yeah, it affected them for sure and I
mentioned that.
I says, well, they're a lotsmaller than they were number
one.
And the truth is they couldstill be shrinking and we don't
know the answer to that.
And the other truth is we don'tknow what it is.
We know that it could benecrotic tissue.
It could be non-cancerous.
(20:17):
Only the MedPet scan is going totell us the real story PET scan
is going to tell us the realstory and that's really kind of
what she said.
She goes well, even if we did abiopsy we wouldn't know.
We have to get the whole thingout.
And I says, well, I don't wantDead tissue, right, exactly.
So that's, I got her toacknowledge that number one.
We don't know that it'scancerous and we also don't know
(20:40):
that it's not continuing toshrink until we check it again.
And so she, she acknowledgedthat and and then I went on and
I talked about the differenttests.
I talked about that Signateratest that you talked about.
I talked about the liquidbiopsy test.
I talked about the squamouscell carcinoma antigen test that
(21:02):
they have.
There's a number of.
There's a circulating tumortest, tumor cell test, and she
really kind of said well, thatNAVDX test tells me what I need
to know.
And so she kind of poo-pooedthat and said she wasn't going
to order any further tests.
I says, all right, well, I'llwork on that myself, and it's
(21:23):
okay, she didn't have a problemwith me doing it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
And if folks know about the Life Extension website
, you can order tests.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Exactly, and if you just know what to ask for, it's
not that difficult of a process.
So I'm in the process ofdetermining which tests I can
get and which ones how often Ican get a whole lot of them
Exactly.
So what I told her is you know,her plan is for me to continue
(21:55):
with this high dose radiationand it is five days a week for
six weeks and they strap youdown with this shield, they
build around your head and chestand they blast the heck out of
you.
And I told her, and then youget chemotherapy on top of that.
(22:15):
And she said well, thechemotherapy by itself isn't
going to do the job, but ithelps.
Look what it did so far.
I know exactly and it's.
Look what it did so far.
I know exactly and it's.
I don't see the logic.
I know, and that was where Iwas like okay, I'm just trying
to get where she's coming fromso that I know what to even
mention or not mention.
(22:35):
It's coming from the guidelines, joe, I know, and that's what I
really came to realize.
I talked to her aboutimmunotherapy, which I found in
several papers that determinedthat there's an immunotherapy
chemotherapy combination that isused with my cancer.
And she says, well, we can't dothat because you're not
(22:56):
metastatic, and that's the only.
But you are metastatic.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I know it's in the lymph nodes.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It's in my lymph nodes exactly, but they're not
classifying it like that rightnow.
And she said, well, it's notapproved for the cancer.
You have the way you have itand we couldn't even get it
through insurance if we wantedit right now.
And it says, well, that I canunderstand, but geez, would you
not even?
You don't know what you'regoing to get through insurance.
(23:23):
I know why, wouldn't you even?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
try.
Maybe you present it correctlyand you might have a chance.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Well, and that's why I'm still going.
So what I've been doing andwith this group I've been
getting tidbits of other drugs.
People are using other chemocombinations.
Not everybody's doing theradiation chemo.
Most people have not talkedabout diet or herbs or certain.
(23:48):
I've not seen any reference tomethionine yet, but I'll be
integrating it.
I'm just trying to get myselfinto the group without being,
you know, not.
This is the squamous cell group.
Yeah, yeah, and it's all aroundthe world.
This is people from around theworld.
It's an incredibly big group.
Yeah, and boy, I mean to hearthe horror stories.
Oh, it's mostly horror storiesand a lot of people you know.
(24:12):
The biggest horror story I'mhearing is somebody gets
diagnosed and they get a biopsyor they get a test that comes
back positive and then theirdoctor doesn't move.
They say that they're waitingfor months and they're not
getting any cause for treatment.
And I'm just like this is acancer that the more I learn
(24:36):
about it, the more aggressive Irealize it is and it wants to
metastasize and it's good at itand it spreads to your lungs, it
spreads to your lymph nodes andit gets all around your body
quickly if you give it a chance,and for a doctor to to not
decide that, wow, as soon as youdiscover something that's this
(24:58):
deadly and this and thisaggressive, why you wouldn't
stop what you're doing and begina treatment of some sort is
beside.
I can't understand it, so Idon't know.
Well, it's in different placesaround the world, it's not just
here in the States, and you knowthere's a myriad of different
situations, but I just realized.
(25:20):
And then there's people who youknow they don't have insurance
or good insurance and they'regetting evicted while they're.
You know, people don't realizewhen you're getting these
treatments it's, it'sdebilitating.
Even the chemo knocked me outpretty bad and you can't really
work, you can't do what younormally are doing because
you're busy fighting this thing.
And so if you don't have somekind of cushion or some kind of
insurance, you know people arelosing their homes, they're
(25:43):
losing their you know theirlivelihoods, at the same time
Very unfortunate, yeah.
So, understanding that I've got, you know, I've got empathy,
but really what I have now is adetermination.
I believe.
In my own research I found outthat this three drug cocktail
that did so much good for me isapproved for up to six doses and
(26:07):
before it has a toxic level,and I don't know if that's all
at once or just over an overload.
And so I realized that I haveto go to the medical records in
(26:30):
order to get the images for myCT scans, which I'm going to be
doing this coming Thursday.
So I have to go and get a chemoor a port flush.
They have to run this somethingthrough me to make sure that it
doesn't clog, because I'm goingto keep the port in until I
know I'm done.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
It has to be patent, as they say.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah.
So they say every four to sixweeks.
I got to get that done.
So I'm getting that done andI'm meeting with the radio
oncologist.
I'm going to present to him thesame things I presented to her
radio oncologist.
I'm going to present to him thesame things I presented to her
and the way I'm going to offerthis is number one I still have
not gotten my dental clearancebecause I couldn't do any dental
work while I was getting thechemo.
So I've got to begin thatprocess again.
(27:12):
That gives me a solid reasonwhy I can't begin this.
But number two I'm just going tolay it out for him that I've
got another scan in three monthsscheduled and I most definitely
want to see what happensbetween now and three months.
And the two tumors are gone, thetwo masses in my lymph nodes
(27:33):
have shrunk.
So the worst thing that's goingto happen is we'll notice some
change for the negative and thenI would make a decision of what
I'm going to do next.
Change for the negative andthen I would make a decision of
what I'm going to do next.
But I think it's rational and Idon't think it's adversarial
and I think that you know, Idon't want to lose these people
(27:55):
and say, well, we can't treatyou anymore because you're not
listening to us.
I'm just that can happen, Iknow that and that's what I'm
trying to make sure doesn'thappen.
So I'm not approaching them inan adversarial way at all, I'm
just saying, look, I think it'sbest that we just sit on this
for a minute.
We've come so far, I'm doingfantastic, I know what the
negative side effects are and inorder for me to agree to that,
(28:16):
it has to be a pretty diresituation and I don't believe
that's going to happen.
It has to be.
There's no other way.
Right, exactly that would bethe treatment of last resort,
and I've got a lot of.
You've run out of chemo, yeah,and you're still growing.
Exactly Okay, turn on theradiation Right.
So now my mission is to.
(28:38):
I'm going to get these scanreports.
I'm going to bring them to DrCastro.
Hopefully he'll see me andagree to work.
He'll see you.
You may have to wait a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
You may have to make a little bit of noise.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
We'll do what we got to do.
But he said something that wasconcerning to me when my tumor
was big and I told him about youknow we up with the, with the
chemo treatment, and that theyagreed to do it.
It was really just before I gotthe port installed that I saw
him last and he said you need todo that radiation because they
(29:14):
have to do it or they're notgoing to be able to treat you,
and he seemed like he was verypositive of me taking that
radiation.
So I hope.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Well, you know he's probably had good experience
with it, maybe, but, joe, thatwas before you had this
fantastic response Exactly whenhe saw me last I was, that was
Joe 1.0.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Exactly, exactly.
So I'm hoping that when he seesme today or when he sees me
soon, he'll see the differenceof what we did and he
understands the methioninerestriction and the methionine
A's, he accepts it, heunderstands it as well as
anybody.
Exactly so.
Finally, I've got one doctorout of all of them that I've
(29:59):
talked to that even know whatI'm talking about and and accept
that as a positive piece of thepuzzle.
So that's kind of where we'reat.
I feel positive about that andI know.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Joe, I would if it were me.
I'd find some doc that willgive me another three cycles of
the same three, the samecocktail you've gotten so far,
to get as much out of thatcocktail as you can.
Go as far as you can with thatcocktail.
I totally agree.
There's a good chance that it'sgoing to be all gone by then,
(30:35):
and if it's not all gone, thenwe got to do plan B Right, and
it might be another cocktail orit might be.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Finally, we go to the radiation and I I'm looking at
this immunotherapy chemocombination that that is being
used um and that would certainlybe preferable to the radiation
if I've, if I can get that.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
The trouble is, like the doc said, the immunotherapy
is incredibly expensive.
Oh, I didn't know that.
10,000 a round, I don't know.
So, to get the insurance Got it, go with it, I don't know.
Okay, okay, let's just go bylogic, right, just stupid logic,
(31:21):
simple logic.
Right, just stupid logic,simple logic.
Hey, I've had three treatmentsand I've got a tremendous
response.
Right, literature says hey, youcan probably get another three
before the toxicity really kicksin.
Right, can't I just try anotherthree?
Right, exactly, I'll, probablycan go, we've gone so far
(31:41):
another three how far we can go.
We've gone so far.
You know, when Otani ispitching with a good fastball
and curveball, what's hesupposed to do?
Stop that and go to theknuckleball.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Exactly, I mean, you do what works.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
You know it's working .
Why we have to stop?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
what's working.
Yeah, it makes no sense, andthat's really.
I'm going to start with drcastro and then after that I'm
going to start researching umprobably find some integrative
yes, castro's an integrative guy.
Find another integrative guy,girl um, and I'll just start
setting up consultations until Ifind somebody that'll listen to
(32:22):
me.
You'll find somebody, you'llfind somebody, and you know I'm
persistent.
You know I'm not gonna give uptill I get.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Let me just give you a name, sure from long ago okay
his name is Tom Song, likesinging a song, okay, and I used
to know and he used to givepeople incredibly high-dose
chemo.
Okay, he was very controversialbut he held his ground.
(32:51):
Okay, my understanding, he'sstill practicing.
Okay, probably be close to myage up there.
All right, he's a good guy.
Keep him in mind.
He practices south of San Diegosomewhere.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Doesn't matter Wherever he is.
That's where I'll go.
Yeah, I'm not worried about it,I'll go where I need to.
Tom's Tom.
All right, I will look him up.
Well, Robert, I think we'vecovered a lot of ground.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you.
It's always a pleasure to talkto you and I'm excited to hear
about this symposium and I feellike, little by little, the
information is getting out thereand I believe, more and more,
(33:29):
these cancers that are killingpeople are going to kill less
people and people are not goingto have to take such invasive,
devastating treatments.
They'll get more value out ofless, uh, harmful treatments.
And you know, we we just learnto adapt a lifestyle that
doesn't give that cancer a placeto live there you go, beautiful
(33:52):
all right, robert, well well,the.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
This is the new, this is the new way.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes, and you know, the one thing that I've gotten
is that when I'm talking tothese doctors, they're listening
to me because I'm talking theirlanguage and I'm using their
(34:17):
papers and I'm not just throwingwords out there.
They know that I've doneresearch and I'm You're not a
crank, you're not a quackExactly so if you can get
yourself up to a knowledgestream and the language that you
can have a civil conversationwith somebody, you'd be
surprised They'll.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
At least it's an informed conversation, Civil and
informed.
The most important thing is tobe informed.
There's PubMed out there.
Everybody can look at thepapers and no matter how much
jargon is in the paper, if youget through the summary you can
get the point.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Take your time and look it up.
Yeah, it's worth it, and andand AI can help translate it.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Oh, absolutely, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Well, Robert, I'm looking forward to talking to
you again on Sunday and rememberwe have a Zoom call on Sunday
and it's actually a link in allthe show notes of these podcasts
, so look down at the bottom ofthe notes.
You can click on that andeverybody's warmly welcomed.
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
All right, robert Well, thank you so much, and you
have a great show, warmlywelcomed, exactly Excellent.
All right, robert Well, thankyou so much.
Thank you, joe.
Always great to be on Beautiful.
We'll see you all next time.
Folks See you in a few, allright.
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