September 21, 2025 • 35 mins
What separates those who survive cancer from those who don't? According to Dr. Robert Hoffman, groundbreaking cancer researcher and returning guest on the Healthy Living Podcast, the answer might surprise you.
"If you want to get better from cancer, you gotta really want it," explains Dr. Hoffman in this candid conversation with host Joe Grumbine. "You've got to say 'I'm not going to let this beat me' and be prepared to do whatever it takes." This mindset, combined with evidence-based treatment approaches, forms the foundation of successful cancer recovery.
The episode reveals stunning new research about methionine restriction and its selective impact on cancer cells. Dr. Hoffman shares a recent laboratory breakthrough where his team compared methionine restriction with cysteine restriction, another popular target in cancer research. The results were shocking - while removing methionine killed cancer cells but left healthy cells intact, removing cysteine killed both cancer and normal cells indiscriminately. This simple experiment challenges many current theories promoting trendy cysteine-targeting treatments without proper validation.
Throughout their discussion, Grumbine and Hoffman address the vulnerability of cancer patients who may embrace unproven treatments out of desperation. They warn against "opinion leaders" promoting simple solutions without adequate evidence, likening them to cult leaders encouraging followers to "drink the Kool-Aid." Instead, they advocate for combining evidence-based conventional and alternative approaches while maintaining critical thinking throughout the cancer journey.
The conversation concludes with exciting news about an upcoming white paper based on a recent NIH symposium, suggesting that the scientific establishment is beginning to take alternative approaches more seriously. This represents a potential paradigm shift in cancer treatment, offering hope that more patients can access effective, scientifically-validated options beyond conventional approaches alone.
Ready to learn more about effective cancer treatment strategies? Join our weekly discussion calls every Sunday at 4pm Pacific time, where we share the latest research and support patients on their healing journey.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and I'm super excited.
Today, back in the studio withus, we have Dr Robert Hoffman.
Robert, welcome back to theshow.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm fine, Joe.
Thank you for having me.
Always great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Always a pleasure.
You know, as we walk down thislearning path, that we're both
on.
It's like.
It's great just to share ourexperiences.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, these experiences are nobody ever had
before.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I know.
So we're in a new world here Ifeel like I'm exploring a new
planet.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Sometimes yeah, a new planet in a new galaxy
somewhere.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Exactly.
But it's exciting because youknow what.
I woke up today and I'm stillalive and I'm feeling good about
it, good.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
And you're going to be waking up a lot more,
thousands and thousands of times.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Exactly, it's a.
It's a good uh good experiencewhen you know, like, where the
road could have gone and where,where you are.
Now I, um, I feel a little bad.
I've missed the last severalmeetings.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
No problem, Joe, you come on whenever you can.
No problem.
That's the whole philosophy ofthat zoom come and go whenever
it's good.
It's always good when you'rethere.
Don't worry about missing it,because it's going to go on
forever exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, I will be there this week for sure, this last.
You know it's funny because, um, there's a lot of layers to the
things I do.
I've shared with you a littlebit.
I do these sweat lodges andpeyote ceremonies.
Sometimes it's a lot of work.
I'm up all night and we'resinging and praying and doing
(01:57):
medicine.
Then you go in the sweat lodgeand it's like a big steam sauna
it's.
You're all crouched down inthis little cave and but what
happens is you put your bodythrough, you know, sort of a
little torture almost.
But well, it looks like it's ahuge detox exactly, and and what
(02:19):
it does is it opens up yourmind and your spirit.
And you know, robert, as muchas a lot of the work that we're
doing.
You know you focus on thescience and the.
Show me the proof, and it'sreally important that we're
doing that because that createsa roadmap for us to travel down.
But I also travel down thisroad of spirit and mind and
(02:43):
things that I can't necessarilyquantify.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You know Well, you know the spirit and mind, Joe,
have powers that we can'timagine.
And we don't know what it'sconnected to.
So you know it's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I agree, and you know , in this journey going from
when we first met to where I wasat a really critical stage, to
where we had this dramaticturnaround, to where now I'm on
my way to the final steps ofthis and then coming up with the
maintenance, you know scheduleuh, it's been this crazy zigzag
(03:29):
road, like it wasn't a straightpath, it was up and down and
sideways and you know one minutebecause everything's so new,
joe we don't it's, it's.
The road is not paved not at all, and what I learned through
this is my desire to be here andto solve this problem.
(03:52):
Underneath it, all has beeninstrumental in doing the hard
work, like, for example there'sa spirit thing, exactly.
And you know, like this dietyou know we talk about.
Know, like this diet you knowwe talk about.
Oh, there's this diet.
Well, it's a whole lifestyle.
It's not just like, oh, I eatsome food.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's a lifestyle.
It's, literally, it's alifestyle and in order to
convert to that lifestyle andstay on that lifestyle, you need
a lot of spirit, because a lotof people can't make it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And that's been really the most frustrating,
even though their life dependson it.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I know they're like hanging from the building and
they can't keep the grasp andthey fall Exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
It's really frustrating and saddening to me,
because there's people that Iknow I could help and then when
I tell them about what I'm doingand you watch their eyes kind
of glaze over, they're like ohwell we don't have time for them
.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
We really have to.
You know we try.
We tell them they glaze nextexactly.
No, we need to help the peoplewho want to be helped.
We can't and I'm sorry to saythis, but in reality we cannot
help people who don't want to behelped or can't understand how
(05:20):
to be helped.
We don't have time to bash ourhead against the wall.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
There are people out there with nasty cancer that
want to get better, and thoseare the people we want to pay
attention to period so true, andyou know, it's kind of like the
old saying like if you, ifthere's a guy drowning and he
don't want to be saved, andhe's's thrashing around, you
(05:44):
can't save him, he'll drag youdown too.
He'll drag you down.
And that's kind of the way Isee it.
Like I've had people that cometo me and they want to, you know
, learn what I've done.
I show them pictures, I showthem this, and then you start
talking to them and then theystart telling you all about
their you know the difficultiesand all this and I'm like, okay,
(06:05):
but I have an answer and I'verealized that after a while you
know they're just going to keeptalking, right.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
They don't get it.
They don't, or they can't, ordon't want to.
They can't get it.
So okay, you know the old thingyou bring the horse to the
water.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That's it Exactly.
Well, that's what I'm learning.
You know I want to helpeverybody, but it's like Can't
Joe.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And you can't let them drown you either.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Exactly, and that's really where, like right now I'm
literally on the last, TomorrowI get the very last of the
cisplatin and then I'm hopefullydone with this chemo.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, we've got to wait for a couple months.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
When are you going to get the scan prescribed by Dr?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Song, he's ordered it and we haven't gotten
confirmation from the insuranceyet.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So we need to see that scan and then make a plan
when you're going to go to Japan.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Exactly, and I'm well aware of all that, and I'm also
well aware that I'm going to dowhatever I need to do.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, yeah, I hope Dr Sato has a good idea to get you
on some good maintenance.
I'm sure he will.
You've got to stay on the lowmethionine.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
methionine the rest of your life.
Yeah, people hear that.
They don't want to hear that.
I know I'm committed to it.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You know I mean like chihiro she's committed to it
and her maintenance chemo.
She has diarrhea every morning.
She says, okay, I don't get mycancer, it's okay, my cancer
doesn't come back.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I'm okay, I'm right there with her.
I respect her very deeply andthe commitment that she's taken
and the way she approachesthings.
And you know, that's where thiscommunity of survivors and
thrivers it's not just survivors, community of survivors and
(08:07):
thrivers, it's not justsurvivors, these are people that
that you know, it's not just,it's not just staying alive.
You know, because, like whenthey proposed all that radiation
and surgery, to me the hope wasthat I would stay alive, but to
me I said, well, that's, whatkind of life is that?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
you know, if I'm, all it destroys your life, jo Right
, walking around without a jaw.
Oh man, this is just.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
God awful and not being able to swallow and having
.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh no.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
It's a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
With your Facebook people.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
That's their life now , if you want to call it that
and little by little I'm gettingthrough to some of those guys
and and at least I'm sharing thelink to the, to the call, and
you know, eventually they'regoing to trickle in.
But it's okay yeah, most ofthem are just congratulating
each other for surviving and I'mlike, well, I, I can understand
(09:00):
that too, absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
They can't imagine that there was an alternative.
They can't imagine it.
It's so true.
Most of them can't believe you.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
But then you hear about their diets and the
protein and I just like, ah, andI just, you know, it's funny.
I had another guest on the showa few days ago, another guest
on the show a few days ago, andhe has a diabetes program where
he's got a patent formula thathelps people to reverse their
(09:32):
diabetes and of course it's agood you know good nutritional
program if you don't have cancer.
But it's funny, I he wastelling me you know it's mostly
vegetables and fruit and and,but he's talking about legumes
and protein and I said, well,that's good for diabetes.
I said that's great for diabetes, but if you don't have cancer,
(09:56):
and I could tell, I kind of puthim off a little bit because he
didn't get what I was saying.
No, no, of course not, I didn'tworry about it, I just said
well, you know, there's a lot ofthere's, there's a lot of
double-edged swords out thereand sometimes you got to decide,
you know, like, even with the,the different therapies I do,
sometimes if I do too much ofone or not enough, you know it
(10:18):
can have a a negative sideeffect that you got to go well,
which is worth it, you know, andwhen it comes down to kill the
cancer, stay alive and healthy,that's always the one that's
going to win.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And if I had a choice , for sure cancer a lot of
people can't get that.
It's very sad.
Yeah, a lot in these last fewyears about people with cancer.
Uh, you know, I used to think,oh boy, they'll do anything to
get better.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Right, but it's not true and even like this is
grueling, like, like.
So yesterday I I went to for acheckup with dr song because
he's going on vacation and it'skind of cool.
I asked him I go, so, doctor,where are you going to go on
vacation?
And he says he's going to goout to the anza borrego desert.
(11:09):
He goes I want to go and seethe stars.
I go, wow, that's really agreat place.
That's cool because I go.
You can realize how small wereally are when you go out there
.
You look up at that milky wayand you see how big just what we
can see with our eyes is and uh, it's, it's really humbling.
But um, I told him, you know,get rested up.
(11:30):
You got a lot of good work todo, but he took the time before.
Like I went Monday to get myfinal infusion, or you know, the
began my final infusion and ofcourse you know I'm there all
day and when, when I'm done, I'mbeat up and tired and all that.
But he said, well, I want tosee you Wednesday because I'm
(11:50):
leaving for vacation.
I mean, the guy took the timenot just to call over the blood
work, but he says I want you tocome in and I want to see you
before that and he goes.
You know the office is going tobe busy because I want to see
you know pretty much everybody.
But he took the time the daybefore he left on vacation to
sit with me and he went throughmy whole chart.
(12:11):
He went through my whole chart.
He went through my blood workand every time I see him they
pulse blood and he does a prettyextensive panel and he's
looking at I don't even know allthe things that he's looking at
.
I still have to learn some ofthe things that he's looking at,
but I know it.
A lot of it's the immune youknow system, the white blood
cells and all of that stuff anda lot, most of its nutrition.
(12:35):
And it's funny because this lastone, the only thing I came up
low, was protein and albumin andit was just a little bit low
and he was okay.
He said he said to me he says,joe, he says you're handling the
chemo very well, because heknows this is a really rough you
know cocktail that I'm onabsolutely.
(12:56):
And he says you're doing reallywell, like he's impressed with
my diet.
I can tell each time I I seehim he's got a little something
about my diet.
He keeps asking or we'regetting through to him.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
He's getting there little by little.
Yeah, we're getting through tohim.
You're going to show him yourpaper.
It should be out about thebeginning of November.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I love it.
I love it.
That's so exciting, hopefully.
And then he said you know theother doctor is going to
administer the final piece ofthe infusion.
I said that's fine and he'sholding off on the immunotherapy
until he gets back fromvacation.
Yeah, he wants to be monitoringyou.
(13:38):
Yes, I mean, what doctor doesthat spends that much attention?
He's from the old school, joethe old school UCI, they would
have just kept going.
The old school joe.
The old school uci, they wouldhave just the old school is
closed.
Yeah, yeah, so I I just again.
I I know I say it every time Isee you, but I'm so grateful
that you connected me with thisguy because I believe he's
(14:01):
critical to my not just mysurvival, but my thriving and
yeah, I, I, I and it.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I'm so happy we could do it um and um it's.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's great, it was meant to be so I I always like
to hear about your research.
You're the most research inthis guy I've ever known and
you're always.
I mean, I come to your, youroffice, and there's stacks of
books and stacks of papers andstacks of like.
You're just so immersed in this.
(14:35):
It's, it's unbelievable.
And how do you like, how do younavigate?
I mean, there's so muchinformation out there.
How, what kind of a path do youtake?
Or how do you?
How do you navigate?
I mean, there's so muchinformation out there.
What kind of a path do you take?
Or how do you travel down thisinformation highway?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Well, you know, I'm far from the paradigm how to do
it.
You know, I just follow myinstincts every day.
Joe, okay, and I've got somereally terrific young guys, and
(15:14):
one of the young guys, utah DrMiyashi, made a fantastic
observation last week.
Oh really, yeah.
So we have this co-culturemethod we put in the same dish
the cancer cells and the normalcells and we see and we do
something and want to see whathappens.
(15:35):
So the cancer cells and thenormal cells are under the same
exact conditions.
They're right there togetheryeah so we do as a kind of
positive control.
We, we took away the methionine.
Well, just as you would expect,as we know, for the last 65
years, the cancer cells wentaway and the normal cells stayed
(15:58):
happy, and that was our kind oflet's call it a positive
control.
Then we took away cysteine Okay, because you see all this stuff
on Zooms in the literature.
Oh, wow, we're going to thetarget.
(16:21):
The new target for cancer iscysteine, right, right, because
we're going to knock out theoxidative uh protection system
and da, da, da, da, and it's allabout cysteine.
Okay, so, utah, y-u-t-a, notu-t-a-h, makes a the another uh
(16:45):
experiment within the coldculture.
He puts the cancer cells innormal cells.
This time he keeps themethionine in there and takes
out the cysteine.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
And all the cells die .
Speaker 2 (17:04):
The normal cells die the cancer cells die Holy shit.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Sorry for the French on your program.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And and um, wow, Uh, and so you know, all these guys,
these fancy papers and fancyjournals, were, were, were're
targeting cysteine in the cancercells and we're doing so good,
we're stopping them.
They never just take out a fewdays and say, hey, what happens
(17:34):
to some normal cells?
So it's easy to kill cancercells.
Joe, put a little hydrochloricacid, put a little bleach on
them, they'll die.
Whatever Killing cancer cellsis, they there's.
They're very, very easy to killright right.
How do you do that withoutkilling the patient?
How do you do that withoutkilling the normal cells?
(17:55):
That ain't easy, no.
And and methionine restrictiondoes it.
Is that enough?
No, but it sure is.
It's out, it's necessary.
Well that's really powerful.
You know we need to do as yousee in your case.
We needed to do that chemo ifwe just starved you from
methionine, you wouldn't havethis, this, this, this this
(18:18):
great result.
We need both and that's justfine.
But this simple little thingdoing the freaking control,
looking at the normal cells,yeah, and we got a really nice
system.
Actually, a guy in our lab 40years ago, peter, a crazy little
guy, um, really smart, peterstern.
(18:39):
I don't know if he's stillalive, he'd be, he'd be, uh,
over 80, a little bit.
What a smart guy.
He says, okay, I'm going tomake a co-culture tumor normal.
We didn't have methioninase inthose days, we just had the
medium, took out the methionine.
Well, he managed to kill thecancer cells and keep the normal
(19:01):
cells by doing that.
He had to use a little chemoalong the way and that was it.
I mean that was published in1986.
It's a classic.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So that's what we found out last week.
So simple, you know.
Research, good research is sosimple.
Simple, you know.
You look into history, allthese guys trying to figure out
how the planets went around thesun Right Circles and doing this
and doing handstands andwhatever.
And it turns out so simple.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
They just go around.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They just go around, round and round.
They don't do any tricks, justgo around.
So, the answers in science thatare simple are probably the
right ones.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Well, it's Atkins Razor, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So you know, so simple To do the cold culture
experiment.
We did it with methionine.
We knew how that was going tocome out because we were doing
it for 40 years.
And then we, you know, and Ididn't care about cysteine all
these decades because I didn'tthink there was anything to it
by paper after paper and claimafter claim, oh, we got it.
(20:14):
We got a target cysteine.
We got a target cysteine.
Finally I said, all right, sowe just did the simplest little
tiny experiment and you take outcysteine, you kill the cancer
cells and you kill all thenormal cells.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Wow, and that ain't no good no, and that's that's
actually really troubling,because I know a lot of people
that are focusing a lot of theirenergy on yeah, theraptosis,
that's the new buzzword right,and it's bull scrappy yeah, wow,
I'm, I'm really.
You know, when we talked alittle while ago behind the
(20:51):
scenes about all this, I, I, Iceased that whole program
because I just didn't.
I you said some things thatwere pretty powerful and and the
the level of selenium and allthis stuff is like.
I did my own research and Iwhoa, that's like way more than
any recommended amount of that.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
You got this girl.
I don't know if you rememberGabriela, yes, and that poor
girl.
Her hair's falling out, hernails are black, she can't stand
up.
And I said what's your bloodresults, gabriella?
Well, my albumin is just okay,not bad.
My hemoglobin is only about A.
(21:34):
Well, that's low.
I asked Dr Exame, can shesurvive on it?
Yeah, it's okay, not good, butokay.
And then she said my seleniumis 734.
I said what's the maximum highnormal?
I don't know about 140.
I said, holy moly you're justpoisoning yourself, and that
(21:57):
might be, I don't know.
I don't know if she'll stop ornot stop.
I'm guessing, if she stopped,maybe all these terrible
symptoms, some of them are goingto go away.
Yeah, I'm guessing, if shestopped, maybe all these
terrible symptoms, some of themare going to go away.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
You know, it's reallyfrustrating because people tout
studies as though they're equal.
And you know, you can do astudy in your own backyard and
say, oh, I'm studying this andI'm noticing this and that, and
then you can say I did a study.
Well, what does that mean?
It doesn't mean anything.
And then you do a true, youknow, blind or double blind, you
(22:32):
know, and then submit it forpeer review and and, and you
know, get it approved by yourpeers who recognize the science
you did.
Well, that's a whole differentstudy, that's a.
It's different, it's different.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
It's different.
People say oh Jane, whateversaid in her book this, and it's
Christian, his book said that.
Right, that doesn't meanscrapola, and you know I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Anecdotal evidence has its value.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It does, and that's all our clinical studies.
Your study is an anecdote.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Joe, absolutely Sorry .
Speaker 2 (23:15):
But the result is good.
Do we care which componentreally was the main driver?
We don't care.
We care that you're so good.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, and we're going to compile this
observation with dozens orhundreds of other observations.
Yeah, and hopefully, but youknow, joe, the trouble.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
my trouble is a little bit and I'll go back in a
minute.
Yeah, is you know?
I went on the Russian TV.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And in the interview they said to me this is about
ivermectin and fenbendazole,right.
And in the interview they saidto me this is about, uh,
ivermectin and fenbendazole.
I'm all for it.
And they say well, you know, uh, mel Gibson said three friends
recovered from from from a stagefour cancer, just on that and
they're not going to take any ofthis toxic pharmaceutical stuff
(24:09):
.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And the interviewer said to me are you worried about
that?
So I didn't answer him directly.
I just said with maybe a veryrare exception, I don't accept
patients who refuse standardtherapy.
That was my answer Once in awhile.
Once in a while, once in awhile, you know.
(24:32):
You know it can't be so rigid,but that's my general right.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
But there are certain cancers that are very
aggressive and others that areyeah, we've got.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You know, like, like, like, like dave, he hangs in
there, just undefiningrestriction, okay, but it's a
very kind of indolent cancer.
Right, exactly, and you knowwhat troubles me, though, joe,
is some of these so-calledopinion leaders, or hucksters,
or whatever you want to callthem.
Right, they remind me of JimJones Drink the Kool-Aid, right,
(25:05):
you know, they take thesepeople's word, uh they're like
you know just because they saidit, it's, you know, drink the
kool-aid and you know, and it'sa cult thing it is.
And I guess a cancer patient,just as a hostage right, might
(25:27):
be very susceptible to that kindof brainwashing.
Well so, and who's morevulnerable than a cancer patient
?
Speaker 1 (25:36):
nobody, and and we want to we want to find answers
that we can believe in and wewant to find answers that are
less harmful, and we want tobelieve that you know that
there's a natural answer foreverything, and in some cases
there is.
But the truth, like you said,generally the solution is going
(25:59):
to require some heavy liftingand some difficult choices and
you know a good, well rounded,natural diet and all of that on
top of it, but just one thing oranother.
It's like you said.
These are very vulnerablepeople.
I know that.
You know I happen to have a lotof strength inside that says
(26:23):
I'm not listening to anybodyunless I do my own vetting and I
determine that it's got value.
But most people, when you gethit with you got cancer and this
is what's likely to happen.
It scrambles you, it reallyjust like tears you apart and
you're standing like on arickety board and you don't know
(26:46):
if it's going to snap andyou're just like I don't know
what to do.
And then somebody comes alongand says, well, I've got this
answer for you and here's thisstudy and here's this, whatever.
And this is maybe somebody thatis respected for something.
Maybe he's an actor, maybe he'sa scientist of some sort, but
we people will tend to give thisperson validation for something
(27:12):
they don't deserve and I'lljust go oh, okay, well, you said
that, so I, I'm gonna do whatyou said.
Like you said, drink thatKool-Aid and man it's, it's.
It's horrible because I know, Iwant to believe that there's
these natural, simple answersfor everything and, you know,
(27:33):
maybe if your mind is strongenough and your spirit is strong
enough and you've got enoughwhatever superpower to make
something like that happen, youcan do it.
But I don't think most peopledo, that's for sure, and I think
most people.
When you take something that isdifficult, you know, like I
said, they're double-edged sword.
Right, I'm going through mysixth round of this chemo and
(27:56):
I'm weak as hell right now.
But I'm sitting here talking toyou and I'm a little nauseous
and that's all right.
We just keep going and I knowReally, no pain, no pain, no
gain exactly and I know tomorrowwill be a little better than
the next day, I'll be a littlebetter and, and after a few days
of this stuff running throughmy system, I'll be right back to
(28:20):
where I was and you'll bebetter than where you were
exactly, and and the cancer willbe gone.
And now I'll have a new lifewhere I have choices that I can
make, that can keep it gone,just simply by a little bit of
discipline.
And, you know, once in a whilemaybe I give myself a treat and
(28:40):
I, you know, take the extramethionine is, but once in a
while it's, it's, it's, it's,it's a, you know, maybe a once a
month thing, or or I mean, youknow, but not absolutely, no
problem not the lifestyle.
You see, that's yeah, that likewe tell it.
It's so easy to slip too.
I mean, trust me, even likewhen my nausea is really bad,
(29:02):
sometimes I'll have a littlecereal and have a little goat's
milk on it, just a little bit,but you know yeah something I
can put in make you feel betterwith all that chemo yeah, and it
stays in my belly and doesn'tgo, you know, doesn't want to
come back up.
All right, I take my methionine.
As I look at the chart I'm like, oh, it's not too bad, it's
just enough to, it's all problem.
But that's as far as I go.
(29:24):
I'm not having a sushi dinner,I'm not doing.
Look, look at your result.
Just look in the mirror.
Exactly so you know, I guessthe message is always for these
people that are listening.
You know I've sent a lot ofpeople links to this podcast.
I sent a lot of people links tothe call on Sunday at 4 o'clock
(29:44):
Pacific time.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Here's the secret.
Here's the secret.
All right, if you want to getbetter from cancer, you gotta
really want it exactly you gottareally, really, really want it
yes and be prepared to putyourself through a lot of agony
or whatever to change whateveryou gotta want it.
(30:07):
You gotta say'm not going tolet this beat me and I'm going
to do what I need to do.
This is the main point.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
That is a hundred percent truth.
And I know, when I came to thatplace, you know, I came to kind
of a dark spot and I got amessage in my mind so what are
you willing to do for this?
I was like whoa, where'd thatcome from?
And I, I, I reckon that I hadto make that decision.
And I said you know what I'mgoing to do, whatever it takes,
and I'm not even Whatever ittakes.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Whatever it takes, cancer is good.
You know that this guy,mukherjee, whatever his name,
siddhartha, whatever his namewrote this book.
You know he's a huckster, he'san oncologist, but I think kind
of a huckster.
But he said the title of hisbook I think was correct Cancer,
the emperor of all maladies.
(30:56):
There you go, Nothing can matchit.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Right?
No, it's a survivor.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It wants to live more than you do sometimes, that's
right and it has the ability tolive more than you do, unless
you take some extraordinarymeasures.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I couldn't agree more .
Well listen, I always want tohear.
You did that symposium and NIHwas starting to talk and guess
what, joe?
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, the leader, Dr Xi, has agreed and has gotten
permission to write up a whitepaper based on all of that and
she's asking me for advice whichjournal?
I think we've decided probablyon a good journal.
I don't know if we can get itin, but we need to try.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
So she's into it and she's a green light.
That is the best news I knowwhen we were talking about the
first round there was threerounds of this symposium and you
spoke on the third and finalround yeah, the very end and you
were saying from the beginningyou know, the best thing could
come out of this is we get awhite paper.
(32:08):
Yeah, it's like a white paper.
Yeah, Like it's happening.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Wow, it's going to happen.
It might take a year or two.
Hey, it's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
It's in the works, though, you see.
Look, the paradigm is startingto crack a little bit.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, it's in the works and probably this will
lead the fact that we've gotpermission for the white paper.
I'm guessing that it'll be okayto put all the talks on the
website.
I love it Anyway sorry, onestep at a time.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, no, I'm so excited.
Well, robert, as always, thisis always a great conversation
and I love to hear the of theresearch and all of it.
And you know, and all of it,and you know.
Just reiterating, you know wetalk about some of the same
things again, because it'salways important, but we always
explore little bits of of ofwhere we're headed and and how
(32:59):
this information is developingand, um, it's, it's always
exciting for me.
So I again thank you so muchfor all that, thank you too.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Joe, thank you for your program, thank you for
helping having me, and I thinkwe're helping a lot of patients.
Things don't happen overnight,but we're getting out there,
we're making progress, all right.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well, I want to thank everybody that's listening, and
we will see you all next time.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Okay, terrific.
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and I'm super excited.
Today, back in the studio withus, we have Dr Robert Hoffman.
Robert, welcome back to theshow.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm fine, Joe.
Thank you for having me.
Always great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Always a pleasure.
You know, as we walk down thislearning path, that we're both
on.
It's like.
It's great just to share ourexperiences.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, these experiences are nobody ever had
before.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I know.
So we're in a new world here Ifeel like I'm exploring a new
planet.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Sometimes yeah, a new planet in a new galaxy
somewhere.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Exactly.
But it's exciting because youknow what.
I woke up today and I'm stillalive and I'm feeling good about
it, good.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
And you're going to be waking up a lot more,
thousands and thousands of times.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Exactly, it's a.
It's a good uh good experiencewhen you know, like, where the
road could have gone and where,where you are.
Now I, um, I feel a little bad.
I've missed the last severalmeetings.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
No problem, Joe, you come on whenever you can.
No problem.
That's the whole philosophy ofthat zoom come and go whenever
it's good.
It's always good when you'rethere.
Don't worry about missing it,because it's going to go on
forever exactly.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, I will be there this week for sure, this last.
You know it's funny because, um, there's a lot of layers to the
things I do.
I've shared with you a littlebit.
I do these sweat lodges andpeyote ceremonies.
Sometimes it's a lot of work.
I'm up all night and we'resinging and praying and doing
(01:57):
medicine.
Then you go in the sweat lodgeand it's like a big steam sauna
it's.
You're all crouched down inthis little cave and but what
happens is you put your bodythrough, you know, sort of a
little torture almost.
But well, it looks like it's ahuge detox exactly, and and what
(02:19):
it does is it opens up yourmind and your spirit.
And you know, robert, as muchas a lot of the work that we're
doing.
You know you focus on thescience and the.
Show me the proof, and it'sreally important that we're
doing that because that createsa roadmap for us to travel down.
But I also travel down thisroad of spirit and mind and
(02:43):
things that I can't necessarilyquantify.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You know Well, you know the spirit and mind, Joe,
have powers that we can'timagine.
And we don't know what it'sconnected to.
So you know it's a good thing.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I agree, and you know , in this journey going from
when we first met to where I wasat a really critical stage, to
where we had this dramaticturnaround, to where now I'm on
my way to the final steps ofthis and then coming up with the
maintenance, you know scheduleuh, it's been this crazy zigzag
(03:29):
road, like it wasn't a straightpath, it was up and down and
sideways and you know one minutebecause everything's so new,
joe we don't it's, it's.
The road is not paved not at all, and what I learned through
this is my desire to be here andto solve this problem.
(03:52):
Underneath it, all has beeninstrumental in doing the hard
work, like, for example there'sa spirit thing, exactly.
And you know, like this dietyou know we talk about.
Know, like this diet you knowwe talk about.
Oh, there's this diet.
Well, it's a whole lifestyle.
It's not just like, oh, I eatsome food.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It's a lifestyle.
It's, literally, it's alifestyle and in order to
convert to that lifestyle andstay on that lifestyle, you need
a lot of spirit, because a lotof people can't make it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And that's been really the most frustrating,
even though their life dependson it.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I know they're like hanging from the building and
they can't keep the grasp andthey fall Exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
It's really frustrating and saddening to me,
because there's people that Iknow I could help and then when
I tell them about what I'm doingand you watch their eyes kind
of glaze over, they're like ohwell we don't have time for them
.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
We really have to.
You know we try.
We tell them they glaze nextexactly.
No, we need to help the peoplewho want to be helped.
We can't and I'm sorry to saythis, but in reality we cannot
help people who don't want to behelped or can't understand how
(05:20):
to be helped.
We don't have time to bash ourhead against the wall.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
There are people out there with nasty cancer that
want to get better, and thoseare the people we want to pay
attention to period so true, andyou know, it's kind of like the
old saying like if you, ifthere's a guy drowning and he
don't want to be saved, andhe's's thrashing around, you
(05:44):
can't save him, he'll drag youdown too.
He'll drag you down.
And that's kind of the way Isee it.
Like I've had people that cometo me and they want to, you know
, learn what I've done.
I show them pictures, I showthem this, and then you start
talking to them and then theystart telling you all about
their you know the difficultiesand all this and I'm like, okay,
(06:05):
but I have an answer and I'verealized that after a while you
know they're just going to keeptalking, right.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
They don't get it.
They don't, or they can't, ordon't want to.
They can't get it.
So okay, you know the old thingyou bring the horse to the
water.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That's it Exactly.
Well, that's what I'm learning.
You know I want to helpeverybody, but it's like Can't
Joe.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
And you can't let them drown you either.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Exactly, and that's really where, like right now I'm
literally on the last, TomorrowI get the very last of the
cisplatin and then I'm hopefullydone with this chemo.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, we've got to wait for a couple months.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
When are you going to get the scan prescribed by Dr?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Song, he's ordered it and we haven't gotten
confirmation from the insuranceyet.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So we need to see that scan and then make a plan
when you're going to go to Japan.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Exactly, and I'm well aware of all that, and I'm also
well aware that I'm going to dowhatever I need to do.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, yeah, I hope Dr Sato has a good idea to get you
on some good maintenance.
I'm sure he will.
You've got to stay on the lowmethionine.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
methionine the rest of your life.
Yeah, people hear that.
They don't want to hear that.
I know I'm committed to it.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You know I mean like chihiro she's committed to it
and her maintenance chemo.
She has diarrhea every morning.
She says, okay, I don't get mycancer, it's okay, my cancer
doesn't come back.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I'm okay, I'm right there with her.
I respect her very deeply andthe commitment that she's taken
and the way she approachesthings.
And you know, that's where thiscommunity of survivors and
thrivers it's not just survivors, community of survivors and
(08:07):
thrivers, it's not justsurvivors, these are people that
that you know, it's not just,it's not just staying alive.
You know, because, like whenthey proposed all that radiation
and surgery, to me the hope wasthat I would stay alive, but to
me I said, well, that's, whatkind of life is that?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
you know, if I'm, all it destroys your life, jo Right
, walking around without a jaw.
Oh man, this is just.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
God awful and not being able to swallow and having
.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh no.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
It's a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
With your Facebook people.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
That's their life now , if you want to call it that
and little by little I'm gettingthrough to some of those guys
and and at least I'm sharing thelink to the, to the call, and
you know, eventually they'regoing to trickle in.
But it's okay yeah, most ofthem are just congratulating
each other for surviving and I'mlike, well, I, I can understand
(09:00):
that too, absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
They can't imagine that there was an alternative.
They can't imagine it.
It's so true.
Most of them can't believe you.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
But then you hear about their diets and the
protein and I just like, ah, andI just, you know, it's funny.
I had another guest on the showa few days ago, another guest
on the show a few days ago, andhe has a diabetes program where
he's got a patent formula thathelps people to reverse their
(09:32):
diabetes and of course it's agood you know good nutritional
program if you don't have cancer.
But it's funny, I he wastelling me you know it's mostly
vegetables and fruit and and,but he's talking about legumes
and protein and I said, well,that's good for diabetes.
I said that's great for diabetes, but if you don't have cancer,
(09:56):
and I could tell, I kind of puthim off a little bit because he
didn't get what I was saying.
No, no, of course not, I didn'tworry about it, I just said
well, you know, there's a lot ofthere's, there's a lot of
double-edged swords out thereand sometimes you got to decide,
you know, like, even with the,the different therapies I do,
sometimes if I do too much ofone or not enough, you know it
(10:18):
can have a a negative sideeffect that you got to go well,
which is worth it, you know, andwhen it comes down to kill the
cancer, stay alive and healthy,that's always the one that's
going to win.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And if I had a choice , for sure cancer a lot of
people can't get that.
It's very sad.
Yeah, a lot in these last fewyears about people with cancer.
Uh, you know, I used to think,oh boy, they'll do anything to
get better.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Right, but it's not true and even like this is
grueling, like, like.
So yesterday I I went to for acheckup with dr song because
he's going on vacation and it'skind of cool.
I asked him I go, so, doctor,where are you going to go on
vacation?
And he says he's going to goout to the anza borrego desert.
(11:09):
He goes I want to go and seethe stars.
I go, wow, that's really agreat place.
That's cool because I go.
You can realize how small wereally are when you go out there
.
You look up at that milky wayand you see how big just what we
can see with our eyes is and uh, it's, it's really humbling.
But um, I told him, you know,get rested up.
(11:30):
You got a lot of good work todo, but he took the time before.
Like I went Monday to get myfinal infusion, or you know, the
began my final infusion and ofcourse you know I'm there all
day and when, when I'm done, I'mbeat up and tired and all that.
But he said, well, I want tosee you Wednesday because I'm
(11:50):
leaving for vacation.
I mean, the guy took the timenot just to call over the blood
work, but he says I want you tocome in and I want to see you
before that and he goes.
You know the office is going tobe busy because I want to see
you know pretty much everybody.
But he took the time the daybefore he left on vacation to
sit with me and he went throughmy whole chart.
(12:11):
He went through my whole chart.
He went through my blood workand every time I see him they
pulse blood and he does a prettyextensive panel and he's
looking at I don't even know allthe things that he's looking at
.
I still have to learn some ofthe things that he's looking at,
but I know it.
A lot of it's the immune youknow system, the white blood
cells and all of that stuff anda lot, most of its nutrition.
(12:35):
And it's funny because this lastone, the only thing I came up
low, was protein and albumin andit was just a little bit low
and he was okay.
He said he said to me he says,joe, he says you're handling the
chemo very well, because heknows this is a really rough you
know cocktail that I'm onabsolutely.
(12:56):
And he says you're doing reallywell, like he's impressed with
my diet.
I can tell each time I I seehim he's got a little something
about my diet.
He keeps asking or we'regetting through to him.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
He's getting there little by little.
Yeah, we're getting through tohim.
You're going to show him yourpaper.
It should be out about thebeginning of November.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I love it.
I love it.
That's so exciting, hopefully.
And then he said you know theother doctor is going to
administer the final piece ofthe infusion.
I said that's fine and he'sholding off on the immunotherapy
until he gets back fromvacation.
Yeah, he wants to be monitoringyou.
(13:38):
Yes, I mean, what doctor doesthat spends that much attention?
He's from the old school, joethe old school UCI, they would
have just kept going.
The old school joe.
The old school uci, they wouldhave just the old school is
closed.
Yeah, yeah, so I I just again.
I I know I say it every time Isee you, but I'm so grateful
that you connected me with thisguy because I believe he's
(14:01):
critical to my not just mysurvival, but my thriving and
yeah, I, I, I and it.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I'm so happy we could do it um and um it's.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's great, it was meant to be so I I always like
to hear about your research.
You're the most research inthis guy I've ever known and
you're always.
I mean, I come to your, youroffice, and there's stacks of
books and stacks of papers andstacks of like.
You're just so immersed in this.
(14:35):
It's, it's unbelievable.
And how do you like, how do younavigate?
I mean, there's so muchinformation out there.
How, what kind of a path do youtake?
Or how do you?
How do you navigate?
I mean, there's so muchinformation out there.
What kind of a path do you take?
Or how do you travel down thisinformation highway?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Well, you know, I'm far from the paradigm how to do
it.
You know, I just follow myinstincts every day.
Joe, okay, and I've got somereally terrific young guys, and
(15:14):
one of the young guys, utah DrMiyashi, made a fantastic
observation last week.
Oh really, yeah.
So we have this co-culturemethod we put in the same dish
the cancer cells and the normalcells and we see and we do
something and want to see whathappens.
(15:35):
So the cancer cells and thenormal cells are under the same
exact conditions.
They're right there togetheryeah so we do as a kind of
positive control.
We, we took away the methionine.
Well, just as you would expect,as we know, for the last 65
years, the cancer cells wentaway and the normal cells stayed
(15:58):
happy, and that was our kind oflet's call it a positive
control.
Then we took away cysteine Okay, because you see all this stuff
on Zooms in the literature.
Oh, wow, we're going to thetarget.
(16:21):
The new target for cancer iscysteine, right, right, because
we're going to knock out theoxidative uh protection system
and da, da, da, da, and it's allabout cysteine.
Okay, so, utah, y-u-t-a, notu-t-a-h, makes a the another uh
(16:45):
experiment within the coldculture.
He puts the cancer cells innormal cells.
This time he keeps themethionine in there and takes
out the cysteine.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
And all the cells die .
Speaker 2 (17:04):
The normal cells die the cancer cells die Holy shit.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Sorry for the French on your program.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And and um, wow, Uh, and so you know, all these guys,
these fancy papers and fancyjournals, were, were, were're
targeting cysteine in the cancercells and we're doing so good,
we're stopping them.
They never just take out a fewdays and say, hey, what happens
(17:34):
to some normal cells?
So it's easy to kill cancercells.
Joe, put a little hydrochloricacid, put a little bleach on
them, they'll die.
Whatever Killing cancer cellsis, they there's.
They're very, very easy to killright right.
How do you do that withoutkilling the patient?
How do you do that withoutkilling the normal cells?
(17:55):
That ain't easy, no.
And and methionine restrictiondoes it.
Is that enough?
No, but it sure is.
It's out, it's necessary.
Well that's really powerful.
You know we need to do as yousee in your case.
We needed to do that chemo ifwe just starved you from
methionine, you wouldn't havethis, this, this, this this
(18:18):
great result.
We need both and that's justfine.
But this simple little thingdoing the freaking control,
looking at the normal cells,yeah, and we got a really nice
system.
Actually, a guy in our lab 40years ago, peter, a crazy little
guy, um, really smart, peterstern.
(18:39):
I don't know if he's stillalive, he'd be, he'd be, uh,
over 80, a little bit.
What a smart guy.
He says, okay, I'm going tomake a co-culture tumor normal.
We didn't have methioninase inthose days, we just had the
medium, took out the methionine.
Well, he managed to kill thecancer cells and keep the normal
(19:01):
cells by doing that.
He had to use a little chemoalong the way and that was it.
I mean that was published in1986.
It's a classic.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So that's what we found out last week.
So simple, you know.
Research, good research is sosimple.
Simple, you know.
You look into history, allthese guys trying to figure out
how the planets went around thesun Right Circles and doing this
and doing handstands andwhatever.
And it turns out so simple.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
They just go around.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They just go around, round and round.
They don't do any tricks, justgo around.
So, the answers in science thatare simple are probably the
right ones.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Well, it's Atkins Razor, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So you know, so simple To do the cold culture
experiment.
We did it with methionine.
We knew how that was going tocome out because we were doing
it for 40 years.
And then we, you know, and Ididn't care about cysteine all
these decades because I didn'tthink there was anything to it
by paper after paper and claimafter claim, oh, we got it.
(20:14):
We got a target cysteine.
We got a target cysteine.
Finally I said, all right, sowe just did the simplest little
tiny experiment and you take outcysteine, you kill the cancer
cells and you kill all thenormal cells.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Wow, and that ain't no good no, and that's that's
actually really troubling,because I know a lot of people
that are focusing a lot of theirenergy on yeah, theraptosis,
that's the new buzzword right,and it's bull scrappy yeah, wow,
I'm, I'm really.
You know, when we talked alittle while ago behind the
(20:51):
scenes about all this, I, I, Iceased that whole program
because I just didn't.
I you said some things thatwere pretty powerful and and the
the level of selenium and allthis stuff is like.
I did my own research and Iwhoa, that's like way more than
any recommended amount of that.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
You got this girl.
I don't know if you rememberGabriela, yes, and that poor
girl.
Her hair's falling out, hernails are black, she can't stand
up.
And I said what's your bloodresults, gabriella?
Well, my albumin is just okay,not bad.
My hemoglobin is only about A.
(21:34):
Well, that's low.
I asked Dr Exame, can shesurvive on it?
Yeah, it's okay, not good, butokay.
And then she said my seleniumis 734.
I said what's the maximum highnormal?
I don't know about 140.
I said, holy moly you're justpoisoning yourself, and that
(21:57):
might be, I don't know.
I don't know if she'll stop ornot stop.
I'm guessing, if she stopped,maybe all these terrible
symptoms, some of them are goingto go away.
Yeah, I'm guessing, if shestopped, maybe all these
terrible symptoms, some of themare going to go away.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
You know, it's reallyfrustrating because people tout
studies as though they're equal.
And you know, you can do astudy in your own backyard and
say, oh, I'm studying this andI'm noticing this and that, and
then you can say I did a study.
Well, what does that mean?
It doesn't mean anything.
And then you do a true, youknow, blind or double blind, you
(22:32):
know, and then submit it forpeer review and and, and you
know, get it approved by yourpeers who recognize the science
you did.
Well, that's a whole differentstudy, that's a.
It's different, it's different.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
It's different.
People say oh Jane, whateversaid in her book this, and it's
Christian, his book said that.
Right, that doesn't meanscrapola, and you know I don't
know.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Anecdotal evidence has its value.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It does, and that's all our clinical studies.
Your study is an anecdote.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Joe, absolutely Sorry .
Speaker 2 (23:15):
But the result is good.
Do we care which componentreally was the main driver?
We don't care.
We care that you're so good.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, and we're going to compile this
observation with dozens orhundreds of other observations.
Yeah, and hopefully, but youknow, joe, the trouble.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
my trouble is a little bit and I'll go back in a
minute.
Yeah, is you know?
I went on the Russian TV.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And in the interview they said to me this is about
ivermectin and fenbendazole,right.
And in the interview they saidto me this is about, uh,
ivermectin and fenbendazole.
I'm all for it.
And they say well, you know, uh, mel Gibson said three friends
recovered from from from a stagefour cancer, just on that and
they're not going to take any ofthis toxic pharmaceutical stuff
(24:09):
.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And the interviewer said to me are you worried about
that?
So I didn't answer him directly.
I just said with maybe a veryrare exception, I don't accept
patients who refuse standardtherapy.
That was my answer Once in awhile.
Once in a while, once in awhile, you know.
(24:32):
You know it can't be so rigid,but that's my general right.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
But there are certain cancers that are very
aggressive and others that areyeah, we've got.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You know, like, like, like, like dave, he hangs in
there, just undefiningrestriction, okay, but it's a
very kind of indolent cancer.
Right, exactly, and you knowwhat troubles me, though, joe,
is some of these so-calledopinion leaders, or hucksters,
or whatever you want to callthem.
Right, they remind me of JimJones Drink the Kool-Aid, right,
(25:05):
you know, they take thesepeople's word, uh they're like
you know just because they saidit, it's, you know, drink the
kool-aid and you know, and it'sa cult thing it is.
And I guess a cancer patient,just as a hostage right, might
(25:27):
be very susceptible to that kindof brainwashing.
Well so, and who's morevulnerable than a cancer patient
?
Speaker 1 (25:36):
nobody, and and we want to we want to find answers
that we can believe in and wewant to find answers that are
less harmful, and we want tobelieve that you know that
there's a natural answer foreverything, and in some cases
there is.
But the truth, like you said,generally the solution is going
(25:59):
to require some heavy liftingand some difficult choices and
you know a good, well rounded,natural diet and all of that on
top of it, but just one thing oranother.
It's like you said.
These are very vulnerablepeople.
I know that.
You know I happen to have a lotof strength inside that says
(26:23):
I'm not listening to anybodyunless I do my own vetting and I
determine that it's got value.
But most people, when you gethit with you got cancer and this
is what's likely to happen.
It scrambles you, it reallyjust like tears you apart and
you're standing like on arickety board and you don't know
(26:46):
if it's going to snap andyou're just like I don't know
what to do.
And then somebody comes alongand says, well, I've got this
answer for you and here's thisstudy and here's this, whatever.
And this is maybe somebody thatis respected for something.
Maybe he's an actor, maybe he'sa scientist of some sort, but
we people will tend to give thisperson validation for something
(27:12):
they don't deserve and I'lljust go oh, okay, well, you said
that, so I, I'm gonna do whatyou said.
Like you said, drink thatKool-Aid and man it's, it's.
It's horrible because I know, Iwant to believe that there's
these natural, simple answersfor everything and, you know,
(27:33):
maybe if your mind is strongenough and your spirit is strong
enough and you've got enoughwhatever superpower to make
something like that happen, youcan do it.
But I don't think most peopledo, that's for sure, and I think
most people.
When you take something that isdifficult, you know, like I
said, they're double-edged sword.
Right, I'm going through mysixth round of this chemo and
(27:56):
I'm weak as hell right now.
But I'm sitting here talking toyou and I'm a little nauseous
and that's all right.
We just keep going and I knowReally, no pain, no pain, no
gain exactly and I know tomorrowwill be a little better than
the next day, I'll be a littlebetter and, and after a few days
of this stuff running throughmy system, I'll be right back to
(28:20):
where I was and you'll bebetter than where you were
exactly, and and the cancer willbe gone.
And now I'll have a new lifewhere I have choices that I can
make, that can keep it gone,just simply by a little bit of
discipline.
And, you know, once in a whilemaybe I give myself a treat and
(28:40):
I, you know, take the extramethionine is, but once in a
while it's, it's, it's, it's,it's a, you know, maybe a once a
month thing, or or I mean, youknow, but not absolutely, no
problem not the lifestyle.
You see, that's yeah, that likewe tell it.
It's so easy to slip too.
I mean, trust me, even likewhen my nausea is really bad,
(29:02):
sometimes I'll have a littlecereal and have a little goat's
milk on it, just a little bit,but you know yeah something I
can put in make you feel betterwith all that chemo yeah, and it
stays in my belly and doesn'tgo, you know, doesn't want to
come back up.
All right, I take my methionine.
As I look at the chart I'm like, oh, it's not too bad, it's
just enough to, it's all problem.
But that's as far as I go.
(29:24):
I'm not having a sushi dinner,I'm not doing.
Look, look at your result.
Just look in the mirror.
Exactly so you know, I guessthe message is always for these
people that are listening.
You know I've sent a lot ofpeople links to this podcast.
I sent a lot of people links tothe call on Sunday at 4 o'clock
(29:44):
Pacific time.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Here's the secret.
Here's the secret.
All right, if you want to getbetter from cancer, you gotta
really want it exactly you gottareally, really, really want it
yes and be prepared to putyourself through a lot of agony
or whatever to change whateveryou gotta want it.
(30:07):
You gotta say'm not going tolet this beat me and I'm going
to do what I need to do.
This is the main point.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
That is a hundred percent truth.
And I know, when I came to thatplace, you know, I came to kind
of a dark spot and I got amessage in my mind so what are
you willing to do for this?
I was like whoa, where'd thatcome from?
And I, I, I reckon that I hadto make that decision.
And I said you know what I'mgoing to do, whatever it takes,
and I'm not even Whatever ittakes.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Whatever it takes, cancer is good.
You know that this guy,mukherjee, whatever his name,
siddhartha, whatever his namewrote this book.
You know he's a huckster, he'san oncologist, but I think kind
of a huckster.
But he said the title of hisbook I think was correct Cancer,
the emperor of all maladies.
(30:56):
There you go, Nothing can matchit.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Right?
No, it's a survivor.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
It wants to live more than you do sometimes, that's
right and it has the ability tolive more than you do, unless
you take some extraordinarymeasures.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I couldn't agree more .
Well listen, I always want tohear.
You did that symposium and NIHwas starting to talk and guess
what, joe?
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, the leader, Dr Xi, has agreed and has gotten
permission to write up a whitepaper based on all of that and
she's asking me for advice whichjournal?
I think we've decided probablyon a good journal.
I don't know if we can get itin, but we need to try.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
So she's into it and she's a green light.
That is the best news I knowwhen we were talking about the
first round there was threerounds of this symposium and you
spoke on the third and finalround yeah, the very end and you
were saying from the beginningyou know, the best thing could
come out of this is we get awhite paper.
(32:08):
Yeah, it's like a white paper.
Yeah, Like it's happening.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Wow, it's going to happen.
It might take a year or two.
Hey, it's going to happen.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
It's in the works, though, you see.
Look, the paradigm is startingto crack a little bit.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, it's in the works and probably this will
lead the fact that we've gotpermission for the white paper.
I'm guessing that it'll be okayto put all the talks on the
website.
I love it Anyway sorry, onestep at a time.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, no, I'm so excited.
Well, robert, as always, thisis always a great conversation
and I love to hear the of theresearch and all of it.
And you know, and all of it,and you know.
Just reiterating, you know wetalk about some of the same
things again, because it'salways important, but we always
explore little bits of of ofwhere we're headed and and how
(32:59):
this information is developingand, um, it's, it's always
exciting for me.
So I again thank you so muchfor all that, thank you too.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Joe, thank you for your program, thank you for
helping having me, and I thinkwe're helping a lot of patients.
Things don't happen overnight,but we're getting out there,
we're making progress, all right.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well, I want to thank everybody that's listening, and
we will see you all next time.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Okay, terrific.
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