June 24, 2025 • 33 mins
What happens when a cancer patient decides to challenge the medical establishment and forge their own path to healing? In this deeply personal conversation, Joe Grumbine and Dr. Robert Hoffman explore this question through Joe's ongoing cancer treatment journey.
After completing his third round of chemotherapy, Joe shares how this round "walloped" him more than previous treatments, likely due to increased dosage. Despite the challenges, he discusses the importance of occasional mental breaks from rigid cancer-fighting protocols. During a recent trip to the Sierras, Joe allowed himself small departures from his strict methionine-restricted diet—a couple bites of trout and a hamburger—while doubling his methioninase enzyme intake. This brief "vacation" from discipline provided the psychological reset he needed to continue his cancer battle with renewed determination.
The conversation pivots to a critical examination of standard cancer treatment approaches. Dr. Hoffman and Joe discuss how the conventional sequence of surgery-radiation-chemotherapy often fails to address cancer's fundamental nature: "By the time you can see it, it's already spreading." Joe's decision to refuse disfiguring surgery for his head and neck cancer in favor of neoadjuvant chemotherapy combined with methionine restriction demonstrates an alternative paradigm that preserved his quality of life while effectively fighting the disease.
We journey behind the scenes of methioninase production, as Dr. Hoffman explains the fascinating process of fermenting genetically engineered bacteria and purifying the brilliant yellow enzyme that helps starve cancer cells. Despite operating as a small nonprofit with significant financial constraints, their team manages to produce enough methioninase to serve approximately 100 patients monthly.
This episode stands as powerful testimony to patient-driven healthcare innovation. Through courage, research, and determination, individuals like Joe are challenging medical orthodoxy and discovering effective treatment combinations that conventional oncology hasn't yet embraced. Their experiences offer hope to cancer patients seeking alternatives beyond standard care protocols while highlighting the crucial role of metabolic approaches in comprehensive cancer treatment.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today we have back in the
studio with us Dr Robert Hoffman.
Robert, welcome back.
Thank you, joe, always glad tobe here.
Oh, it's a treat.
So I discovered over this lastweek that actually yesterday, I
(00:22):
discovered that we share thesame birthday Unbelievable, and
it's kind of a whole countrydown for you and me.
I know I'm telling you overfreedom, right, yeah, I like
that.
When they, when they made thata national holiday a few years
back, I thought, well, that'spretty appropriate.
I've been a champion forfreedom all my life.
(00:43):
So, yeah me too, excellent,excellent.
So I thought, well, that'spretty appropriate.
I've been a champion forfreedom all my life.
So yeah, me too, excellent,excellent.
So I discovered yesterday thatyou turned 84 years old and man
81, joe 81.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, even still, I'm just a kid.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
All right.
Well, I wouldn't have peggedyou a day past 60.
I just am blown away by youryouth and vitality and hell,
you've even got hair.
You see the front part.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
You don't see this part.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I know I got you, but well, where I'm coming from,
you got a lot of hair.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Okay, who needs hair?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
What good does it do you?
It just gives you.
You know what I discovered?
I don't know if you were a cat.
I discovered it makes yourshower take a lot longer.
It really does.
You know, I found, by I get inthe shower and out of the shower
I'm like, wow, I'm all done.
And my wife's like are youclean?
I'm like I didn't have to washmy hair.
Yeah, what a waste of time.
(01:41):
I tell you, a bar of soap goesa long way.
So I'll give a little updatefrom last time.
So last time I had recentlytaken my third round of chemo
and I was in the middle of thefive-day pump and I had people
(02:03):
tell me that it gets a littlemore difficult as you go through
it and I had ridden through thefirst two rounds pretty quickly
and easily without much sideeffects and this one really kind
of walloped me and I talked toa lady that I know that has
dealt with cancer herself andand works with she works in a
(02:26):
surgical ward and she says, well, they generally will increase
the dose as they're goingthrough.
So that third round is likeyour, that's your big dose, and
I don't know if it's anaccumulation or if if it was a
larger dose, but I realized thatit just really took the wind
out of my sails.
How do you feel now?
(02:47):
How do you feel today?
I'm feeling much better today.
I'm still.
I still get winded easier thannormal and, of course, being up
in the Sierras, you know it's upat 8,000 feet.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
So that's a lot of feet.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah.
So I know that generally youget a little winded up there
anyways, but normally I'm upthere hiking and doing a lot,
and I didn't do a whole lot ofhiking.
I did a lot of fishing, caughtsome fish and I got to tell you,
robert, I actually had twolittle bites of trout.
I had to have two bites becauseit was— Absolutely.
(03:21):
You had to have a samplebecause it was absolutely and
you had to have a sample.
Yeah, and you know what?
I've been such a diehard onthis diet and the methioninease.
I told myself on this littlevacation I was gone for what?
Five days.
I said I'm going to bring up adouble dose.
So I was taking four doses aday.
Terrific, I'm going to live alittle.
(03:42):
I'm going to eat a couple ofthings I wouldn't normally eat.
Terrific, I'm gonna live alittle.
I'm gonna eat a couple ofthings I wouldn't normally eat.
And I had a hamburger and Ihadn't had a hamburger in almost
six months.
I hadn't had anything.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
you know, hey, listen the double dose will do it yeah
, yeah and I, I didn't.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And then actually one day, one of the days, I I
stayed rigid, so I, I didn't, Ididn't, let myself get out of
control okay, now you're backinto your routine.
I'm right back into my routineand, and you know, fruit and
vegetables and a little bit ofbeans, and that's it, and my
double dose a day and we'rewe're right back on track.
I, I, I and and this is a thingthat I wanted to kind of share
(04:18):
with you um, all the people, infact, today I interviewed, I
interviewed Cynthia, cynthia,chin Lee, chin Lee, yeah, yeah,
she's awesome and she shares asomewhat similar story to myself
and Shahiro and some of theother people that have overcome
their cancer with this diet andother therapies Is that the work
(04:43):
is work.
You know, it's a.
It's a.
It's a lot of effort to do whatit takes to beat this cancer,
and that's right.
Every once in a while, I thinkit's good to give yourself a
rest, even if it's just a shortone, to just because you know
you think about it like yourbody is is doing the work right.
It's, it's fighting the cancer.
(05:05):
Your mind is discipliningyourself to do the things that
are hard.
Your spirit kind of pays theprice for it all and over time,
you get weary, you know.
You just get a little tired andI think that, like right now, I
feel restored.
I could go back and fast allday long, no problem, I don't
feel like the diet's hard.
I don't feel anything's hardright now, and I think sometimes
(05:27):
it's just important to justgive yourself a break not a long
one, once in a while.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It should not be a routine.
Five days on, two days off.
That's not for methioninase.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
It may be okay for ivermectin, but it's not.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I don't do any of that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I don't take eating a couple of tunas and a burger
and and and washing it down witha couple doses of methaninase
on occasion, on occasion.
I don't think that's going tobe harmful.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It was once in four months for me and I don't feel
like it.
It I feel like I didn't loseany of the impact.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
No, I don't think so either.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It gave me back, you know, just like a sense of my
own freedom.
You know I can do what I wantfor a minute and it felt really
good.
So I just think that you knowpeople need to realize when
they're, if they make thedecision to live, then you have
to make some choices that arenot necessarily pleasant, and
maybe there are choices thatyou've got to stay focused on
(06:31):
and do some things that you justgot to put attention to.
And you know, I think it's justimportant once in a while to
give yourself a little bit ofleeway, latitude.
I agree with you, joe.
Good, good, I'm glad we're onthe same page on this.
I've been so very rigid withthis and I was talking to, you
(06:52):
know, cynthia, and you knowwe're talking about all these
different things.
You know she has a differentkind of cancer and different
kind of therapies that she wasdoing, but we both came down to
the notion of there are thingsthat work and that if you're
going to decide to live, thenyou're going to choose these
things that work and then maybeyou're going to modify and add
(07:13):
your own other things that canhelp you.
But this diet is going to workfor everybody's cancer and it
doesn't matter what kind ofcancer, what drives it, what
caused it, how far along it is.
I mean, we're just talking tothis guy in Japan over the
weekend and unfortunately mybrain's a little cloudy.
(07:34):
His name slips me right now.
But yeah, scott, my God, what astory.
I mean the guy was metastaticGreat story and he went from
being riddled with cancer but hejust drove man.
He's an inspiration.
He did everything.
He did all the things like I'mdoing.
He did more things than I'mdoing.
He's got the same disease.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
As President Biden Right.
Everybody says Biden isincurable.
Right, that's the paradigm.
You cannot recover fromprostate cancer, bone metastasis
, but you can.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Sunday meeting is so important is people are coming
in and sharing their stories andeven doctors are coming in and
learning and and they're they'reonce.
A doctor knows this.
Hopefully they start talking toother doctors and we start to
get.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
They won't get very far, I think.
But well, I think the key pointis the doctors are learning
from the patients, and that'sthe way it would be agreed, and
that was another.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Another thing that you know we were talking about
today is, you know, navigatingthe medical world like in some
ways, well, in all ways, it'sthe patient's responsibility to
figure their problem out butit's not easy if you're up
against an obstinate oncologist.
Well, that's just it.
(09:07):
Like generally you get luck ofthe draw, like you go into
whatever your medical center isand say I've got this disease.
Or maybe you go in for bloodwork and they come and tell you
you've got this disease and thenall of a sudden you sort of
fall into this automatic systemwhere they assign you a doctor
and I think most people the newsthat you have cancer is so
(09:33):
traumatic to most people I thinkit really just knocks them back
.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
To have to battle the cancer and the oncologist too,
Right exactly, and I don't thinkmost people even try.
I don't think they even try tobattle them, I think they just
kind of they think okay, youknow, I'm gonna just follow the
oncologist and you know, as drexime emile always says, you
(09:59):
follow standard of care.
You get a outcome which, formany cancers, is terrible.
Well, we were talking aboutthat.
You really need the standard ofcare which is, in most cases,
necessary but not sufficient.
So we got to augment it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yes, indeed, and the thing is is like the standard of
care generally.
There's three basic ways theygo.
You got surgery, radiation andchemo.
Now they've got immunotherapyand some others.
But if you look at it, thesurgery, which is generally the
first line that they go after,is probably the least effective
(10:40):
in the sense of like with cancer.
By the time you can see it,it's so big that it's already
spreading right, I mean, it'salready breaking off I think we
have to make that assumption.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It's probably not true every time, but I think
that's the assumption.
That's got to be the workingassumption.
It's trying at least.
No, I was talking with Chihiro,yeah, and a young lady, a
daughter of a person who'scontacting with Chihiro, had, I
(11:14):
guess, a cancer similar to yours.
Looked like it originated onthe tongue.
They took out half the tongue,took out a big chunk of the jaw.
They replaced the jaw with somemetal.
Just think of the disfiguringsurgery you would have had and
(11:35):
that's what they wanted to dofirst.
I know Surgeons said by model,I do surgery and then you go to
radiation, then you go to chemo.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And that's the model.
And, yeah, I guess in somecases there's no choice, but
especially head and neck cancer.
Oh yeah, the disfigurement.
There's no way to get around it.
Surgeries do, and you know.
Imagine that this poor girllost half her tongue.
Oh yeah.
(12:05):
Yeah, it's awful, you know, andwith just a little common sense
, try neoadjuvant first.
What have you got to lose?
You've got nothing to lose, youknow, a few weeks of chemo hey,
(12:26):
it just may work.
Of course, when you're onmethionine restriction, there's
a better chance that it's goingto work.
Exactly, you need to change theparadigm.
I think you're the model forchanging the paradigm.
We can start with head and neckcancer.
You're such a clear example ofwhat to do and what not to do,
(12:52):
exactly example of what to doand what not to do Exactly, and
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Again, I listened to the first doctor and he told me
I probably didn't have cancer,which is how I do that.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
This guy's an outlier , he's an idiot, I mean, but
after that I got a little moreEvery grandmother could have
looked at you and said you gotcancer.
I mean, this guy, okay, he's anoutlier, we don't even want to
deal with it.
No, but the standard of carehere, you know, get the
(13:23):
disfiguring surgery first andthen go from there.
So it's really important.
But then they'll argue, yeah,but the chemo doesn't work that
good.
But then we say, hey, combineit with methionine restriction,
no big deal.
(13:45):
Well we should be doing thissince 1959.
It's mind blowing, wouldn't youthink We've got to?
Really, you've got to be theposter boy, joe.
Oh, I'm carrying the torch, youbet I am.
Now we've got to go to the nextstep and change the paradigm.
(14:06):
Right, you just said thechances of when you have a
primary tumor and it's alreadyvisible, being able to be
diagnosed.
Blah, blah, blah.
It's almost certainly spread.
Okay, we're going to try it.
What are you going to do?
We're going to go now toradiation, which is local, and
(14:29):
not deal with the very highprobability that you've got
cancer cells walking around yourbody.
So we've got to find a way foryou to get maintenance chemo,
and we're going to find it.
We will.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know we will.
It's not in the guidebook no no, but you know what?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
It's not for head and neck cancer.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
We're going to find the answer.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
I know we are it could be any kind of good chemo
like Chihiro takes.
It doesn't have to be, it'sjust something to keep the
cancer down, which is probablynot a high bar when you're on
methionine restriction.
(15:18):
Exactly Almost any kind of chemothere.
Their action is very similar.
They're cytotoxic.
They're not really cancer drugs, they're drugs that kill cells
that rapidly duplicate.
So it's not almost any of thosestandard drugs.
(15:40):
I think would be good for you.
And anyway, we're going to getthere and, worse comes to worse,
we'll go down to Tijuana to themost interesting drugstore I've
ever been at.
That's right down the road fromyou, or you walk upstairs to the
(16:00):
doc and tell him what you wantand you pay him five bucks and
he gives you a prescription.
Talk about freedom, right?
Freedom, freedom to determineyour own fate, freedom to
determine your own fate.
So I think you know let's getthe.
We need to get the scans We'vegot it.
We'll analyze the scans andthen we'll send everything to Dr
(16:23):
Castro and see what he says.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Another 10 days I get my scan and you know, I guess,
one of the really good thingsthere are two good things that
came.
Three good things came out ofwhat this card that I was dealt
was.
Number one it was visible, andso I was able to document the
progress with photographs.
(16:47):
And number two, it wasvirus-driven rather than drugs
and alcohol-driven, so thesurvivability rate was almost
double what it would have been.
And then number three the factthat it was virus-driven made
(17:10):
there be a blood marker that Ican test for and I can know for
sure if that virus is in mysystem then there's a likelihood
that it's making some cancercells.
If there's no virus in mysystem, then it's probably not.
I mean, it gives me at least apretty strong marker.
The only problem is, you know,cancer can change, it can mutate
(17:30):
, it can, it can turn intosomething else.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So in order to mutate , it needs a lot of divisions.
So if we, if we keep it down,either not dividing or very
slowly dividing, it's not goingto change that much, I I think I
think you're right and that'sthat's where I feel like I have
some control over the situation.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
So you know, I've made the decision that for the
rest of my life I'm not going togive it anything to grow on.
So I'm going to continue diet,I'm going to continue keeping
this enzyme with me.
If I'm, you know, going tobreak through a little bit, I'll
always have it as a backup.
But my diet is going to berigid and you know I can
(18:15):
continue my oxygen therapies, myexercise, all the other.
I'll probably off and on withthe ivermectin.
I don't know that I'm going tokeep on that all the time.
I don't think I need to.
But you know, sporadicallywe'll go into a few cycles.
I keep on it as much as you cantolerate, oh, okay.
Well, it doesn't bother me, Itake it without any problems.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I think it's very, very promising.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And then I still, like I learned from Dr Castro,
because of this diet it's verylow in protein and protein is
where you get a lot of your zincfrom.
So I'm now zinc deficient byjust the nature of my diet.
So I take a zinc supplement.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
No, because just part of my there you go and you know
if you really your blood comesback too low in protein, start
on some hominix I take it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
No, I take the hominix regularly.
I I go, then you're gonna be.
I take it because I exercise alot and I don't want to.
I try to build a little musclemass and you know, without
taking protein it's pretty hard.
So I take this With thehominids.
You're going to be fine.
Yeah, and I tolerate it fine,it doesn't bother me.
I put it in my coffee in themorning and just drink it and I
(19:33):
get all the aminos except formethionine and cysteine.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So that's right, and the body stitches together all
those aminos.
It finds the methionine left inthe body and you're all making
your protein.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Exactly, yeah.
And you know I've learned somuch, like you know, this thing
with the diet.
So many people have come downthe road that I came where we
cut out the sugar, we cut outthe carbs, we're eating protein
like crazy, because we thoughtit was fine.
And then you come to learn that, whoa, that's totally the
opposite.
And then I learned a lot aboutprotein.
You know, this has been such ajourney.
(20:02):
For me is just learning.
You know I'm always learning.
I think you know you inspire mewith all the research you do
and you're constantlyresearching.
But I've always been that waymyself, and anytime I stumbled
upon something I didn't know.
That's how I found you.
I was just researching, I wasjust looking for answers and all
(20:24):
of a sudden, one of thearticles you wrote about
cancer's addiction to methioninepopped into my field of vision
and it caught my eye, and sothat that one article that you
wrote has probably savedcountless lives, if it's, if it,
if it.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I hope so, joe.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I think it did.
I mean, and you've, you know wegotta get the word out.
Well, I know that, um, I knowthat that's what we're doing
with this, with theseconversations, and you know I to
always, while we're goingthrough this, I like to learn a
little bit about you and yourprocess and your history.
You know you've got such a richhistory, you've been at this
(21:02):
for so long, and I always liketo learn, like, how you go
through discovery, like, howmany experiments have you
documented while you'reresearching methionine?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Well, Joe, I started researching methionine in cancer
in 1973.
Right, so I can't count thathow many.
We probably have just on thatarea?
A couple hundred publicationsat least, maybe more, I don't
know All from different areas, alot.
(21:40):
We went through some dryperiods, you know, when the
injectable methionine causedsome problems with the
methioninease.
I'm sorry, oh yeah, killed amonkey, we lost a monkey, we got
you know.
That really depressed us.
Ten years later, well, maybe 15years later, Dr Hahn and Dr
(22:08):
Kawaguchi found you could takemethioninase by mouth.
Right, that started.
I mean, that was therenaissance.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So since you discovered that, like when
you're going through, like rightnow, you spend your days
working, consulting, how do youspend a normal day?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Okay, well, I help out dr hon.
We're, you know, a real tinylittle organization, so I help
dr hon.
Uh, I check every vial to makesure it has enough methioninase.
Every single vial I check.
Usually I do that in theevening and then I finish up
(22:57):
putting the labels on the vialsin the morning because I get
tired of doing that stuff.
Then I try to do some creativework in the morning and I try to
write or revise a scientific,different scientific paper every
(23:22):
day if I can, trying to get asmany papers out there as
possible.
And you know, then, kind oftoward the middle of the day, I
kind of run down, I kind of dozeoff in the chair and then, as
(23:43):
the afternoon proceeds, I've gotto take all the methioninase I
take methioninase over to FedExand get it all shipped out.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
How long does the process to make the methioninase
over to FedEx and get it allshipped?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
out.
How long does the process tomake the methioninase?
Well, it's two big steps.
The one step is to ferment ourspecial genetically engineered
bacterium, which is a standard Ecoli.
Tons of it in our in our gut.
And this e coli has beenengineered to have the
(24:19):
methioninase gene, which comesfrom a bacteria in the soil, a
really tough bug calledpseudomonas pudida.
So the first step is to fermentit.
So you start out with a littleculture on like Monday, and then
on Tuesday this is all done byDr Lee.
On Tuesday he has enough of thelittle culture to inoculate
(24:43):
about a nine liter culture,which is on a very fancy
fermenter.
The air, the oxygen, theagitation, the pH, it's very,
very sophisticated.
Temperature with all theselittle lights flashing and
curves, great environment thoughyeah, it's real Star Wars, so
(25:08):
that's an overnight culture, Iguess.
From that culture we get on theorder of 10 grams of
methioninase once it's purified.
So Dr Hahn now is purifyingmethioninase once a month.
(25:32):
So he gathers together fourweeks of the product of the
fermentation where we centrifugethe bacteria.
We call it making a cake, okay,a blob of bacteria that have
tons of methioninase in it.
Then he has to open the cell.
(25:53):
Okay, oh, okay, I'm going tohave to plug in here a little
bit, joe, and my phone isgetting warm.
No worries, I hear you, okay.
So then you have to kind ofexplode the cells open and you
(26:18):
go through some steps, one ofwhich is heat.
The methioninase is very heatresistant.
The rest of the proteins in thebacteria are not.
They precipitate like when youboil an egg, okay, but the
methioninase stays in solution.
And then he precipitates itwith what's called polyethylene
glycol you may know it as anantifreeze, but it's got a lot
(26:42):
of uses in biochemistry and thenhe puts it over a column which
separates it from most of theother proteins by their charge.
Every protein has a little bitdifferent charge, positive or
negative, and you can see themethioninase because it's
brilliant yellow, oh, wow.
And the yellow comes from itsso-called coenzyme or cofactor.
(27:07):
Vitamin B6, which is a cofactorfor many enzymes in the body,
got it.
And when you're swigging yourmethioninase, you're swigging a
little bit of vitamin B6 too.
All right, make sure it keepsworking.
So that's pretty much it.
And when you're swigging yourmethioninase, you're swigging a
little bit of vitamin B6 too.
All right, make sure it keepsworking.
So that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
And how much does he generally generate in this
one-month purification?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right now we're generating probably between 30
and 40 grams and that's probablythe order of about 100 patients
.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And is that how many patients you're serving right
now?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah about, so we can expand by the controller of the
fermenter.
Now is running one big vessel,a 10-liter vessel We've built
built about nine, so we'd liketo save up a little money and
get a second vessel.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Probably 30-something K.
But we have so many expensesElectricity, because of all the
stuff we have here justelectricity is $4,000 a month.
Wow, it's a killer.
Rent is is 4,000 a month Wow,it's a killer.
Rent is 11,000 something.
I mean it's just, it's reallytough just to break even, which
(28:51):
is all we want to do is breakeven.
So that's where we are.
You know we're pretty flat out.
So that's where we are.
You know we're pretty flat out,and but we're trying to save up
a little and get that secondvessel.
Then we'll be able to serve 200a month.
Nice, nice.
(29:20):
Well, I'm here to help you dothat, as I can bring more people
and in these conversationsI'm'm meeting people, people are
finding me and okay, well, youknow we're, we're a 501c3 corp.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Everything is taxed, tax deductible.
Yeah, I hear you, I and and youknow it's funny people think,
oh, you know, the enzyme'sexpensive.
It's a thousand dollars a monththat's.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
It probably costs a little more than that to make it
.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I believe that I have no problem paying it because I
know you guys are the real dealand I know I'm absolutely pro
bono.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I live off my Social Security.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
No doubt I understand I have such a deep respect for
you and the work you're doing.
I didn't, I didn't need to knowthose details, but I I kind of
assumed them.
I just I just can the the, thecharacter that you have, the
work that you're doing, and justjust your willingness to, to
(30:13):
share.
I was sharing the story abouthow I ran across you.
I sent an email and you said Istill remember that email.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You just signed it, Joe.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, and then you said give me a call.
And I called you and you pickedup the phone.
And every time I call you, youpick up that phone and if you
don't, you call me right back.
And that tells me the kind ofperson you are and I try to be
that kind of person as well.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Joe, a little bit warning that my phone said
getting hot so it'llautomatically shut off with no,
it'll just go boom.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Well, we'll go ahead and preemptively cut it down.
We're down at about the 30minute mark anyways.
So, Robert, it's always it's apleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I really just Me too, joe, and I'll see you on sunday
, yes, you will.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I'm back at it.
I've got.
I'm gonna have some companyever.
So I probably won't be able tobe on the call for the whole
call, but that's okay I likejoining.
Every minute you're on the call, you're inspiring somebody all
right, that's what I'm here todo, and you inspire me, so thank
you so much.
Thank you, joe.
Thank you so much, too, foreverything.
We'll see you on Sunday, okay,all right, this has been the
(31:25):
Healthy Living Podcast, andwe'll see you all next week.
Thanks for joining us.
Well, hello and welcome back to the Healthy
Living Podcast.
I'm your host, joe Grumbine,and today we have back in the
studio with us Dr Robert Hoffman.
Robert, welcome back.
Thank you, joe, always glad tobe here.
Oh, it's a treat.
So I discovered over this lastweek that actually yesterday, I
(00:22):
discovered that we share thesame birthday Unbelievable, and
it's kind of a whole countrydown for you and me.
I know I'm telling you overfreedom, right, yeah, I like
that.
When they, when they made thata national holiday a few years
back, I thought, well, that'spretty appropriate.
I've been a champion forfreedom all my life.
(00:43):
So, yeah me too, excellent,excellent.
So I thought, well, that'spretty appropriate.
I've been a champion forfreedom all my life.
So yeah, me too, excellent,excellent.
So I discovered yesterday thatyou turned 84 years old and man
81, joe 81.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, even still, I'm just a kid.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
All right.
Well, I wouldn't have peggedyou a day past 60.
I just am blown away by youryouth and vitality and hell,
you've even got hair.
You see the front part.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
You don't see this part.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I know I got you, but well, where I'm coming from,
you got a lot of hair.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Okay, who needs hair?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
What good does it do you?
It just gives you.
You know what I discovered?
I don't know if you were a cat.
I discovered it makes yourshower take a lot longer.
It really does.
You know, I found, by I get inthe shower and out of the shower
I'm like, wow, I'm all done.
And my wife's like are youclean?
I'm like I didn't have to washmy hair.
Yeah, what a waste of time.
(01:41):
I tell you, a bar of soap goesa long way.
So I'll give a little updatefrom last time.
So last time I had recentlytaken my third round of chemo
and I was in the middle of thefive-day pump and I had people
(02:03):
tell me that it gets a littlemore difficult as you go through
it and I had ridden through thefirst two rounds pretty quickly
and easily without much sideeffects and this one really kind
of walloped me and I talked toa lady that I know that has
dealt with cancer herself andand works with she works in a
(02:26):
surgical ward and she says, well, they generally will increase
the dose as they're goingthrough.
So that third round is likeyour, that's your big dose, and
I don't know if it's anaccumulation or if if it was a
larger dose, but I realized thatit just really took the wind
out of my sails.
How do you feel now?
(02:47):
How do you feel today?
I'm feeling much better today.
I'm still.
I still get winded easier thannormal and, of course, being up
in the Sierras, you know it's upat 8,000 feet.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
So that's a lot of feet.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah.
So I know that generally youget a little winded up there
anyways, but normally I'm upthere hiking and doing a lot,
and I didn't do a whole lot ofhiking.
I did a lot of fishing, caughtsome fish and I got to tell you,
robert, I actually had twolittle bites of trout.
I had to have two bites becauseit was— Absolutely.
(03:21):
You had to have a samplebecause it was absolutely and
you had to have a sample.
Yeah, and you know what?
I've been such a diehard onthis diet and the methioninease.
I told myself on this littlevacation I was gone for what?
Five days.
I said I'm going to bring up adouble dose.
So I was taking four doses aday.
Terrific, I'm going to live alittle.
(03:42):
I'm going to eat a couple ofthings I wouldn't normally eat.
Terrific, I'm gonna live alittle.
I'm gonna eat a couple ofthings I wouldn't normally eat.
And I had a hamburger and Ihadn't had a hamburger in almost
six months.
I hadn't had anything.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
you know, hey, listen the double dose will do it yeah
, yeah and I, I didn't.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And then actually one day, one of the days, I I
stayed rigid, so I, I didn't, Ididn't, let myself get out of
control okay, now you're backinto your routine.
I'm right back into my routineand, and you know, fruit and
vegetables and a little bit ofbeans, and that's it, and my
double dose a day and we'rewe're right back on track.
I, I, I and and this is a thingthat I wanted to kind of share
(04:18):
with you um, all the people, infact, today I interviewed, I
interviewed Cynthia, cynthia,chin Lee, chin Lee, yeah, yeah,
she's awesome and she shares asomewhat similar story to myself
and Shahiro and some of theother people that have overcome
their cancer with this diet andother therapies Is that the work
(04:43):
is work.
You know, it's a.
It's a.
It's a lot of effort to do whatit takes to beat this cancer,
and that's right.
Every once in a while, I thinkit's good to give yourself a
rest, even if it's just a shortone, to just because you know
you think about it like yourbody is is doing the work right.
It's, it's fighting the cancer.
(05:05):
Your mind is discipliningyourself to do the things that
are hard.
Your spirit kind of pays theprice for it all and over time,
you get weary, you know.
You just get a little tired andI think that, like right now, I
feel restored.
I could go back and fast allday long, no problem, I don't
feel like the diet's hard.
I don't feel anything's hardright now, and I think sometimes
(05:27):
it's just important to justgive yourself a break not a long
one, once in a while.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It should not be a routine.
Five days on, two days off.
That's not for methioninase.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
No, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
It may be okay for ivermectin, but it's not.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I don't do any of that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I don't take eating a couple of tunas and a burger
and and and washing it down witha couple doses of methaninase
on occasion, on occasion.
I don't think that's going tobe harmful.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It was once in four months for me and I don't feel
like it.
It I feel like I didn't loseany of the impact.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
No, I don't think so either.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It gave me back, you know, just like a sense of my
own freedom.
You know I can do what I wantfor a minute and it felt really
good.
So I just think that you knowpeople need to realize when
they're, if they make thedecision to live, then you have
to make some choices that arenot necessarily pleasant, and
maybe there are choices thatyou've got to stay focused on
(06:31):
and do some things that you justgot to put attention to.
And you know, I think it's justimportant once in a while to
give yourself a little bit ofleeway, latitude.
I agree with you, joe.
Good, good, I'm glad we're onthe same page on this.
I've been so very rigid withthis and I was talking to, you
(06:52):
know, cynthia, and you knowwe're talking about all these
different things.
You know she has a differentkind of cancer and different
kind of therapies that she wasdoing, but we both came down to
the notion of there are thingsthat work and that if you're
going to decide to live, thenyou're going to choose these
things that work and then maybeyou're going to modify and add
(07:13):
your own other things that canhelp you.
But this diet is going to workfor everybody's cancer and it
doesn't matter what kind ofcancer, what drives it, what
caused it, how far along it is.
I mean, we're just talking tothis guy in Japan over the
weekend and unfortunately mybrain's a little cloudy.
(07:34):
His name slips me right now.
But yeah, scott, my God, what astory.
I mean the guy was metastaticGreat story and he went from
being riddled with cancer but hejust drove man.
He's an inspiration.
He did everything.
He did all the things like I'mdoing.
He did more things than I'mdoing.
He's got the same disease.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
As President Biden Right.
Everybody says Biden isincurable.
Right, that's the paradigm.
You cannot recover fromprostate cancer, bone metastasis
, but you can.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Sunday meeting is so important is people are coming
in and sharing their stories andeven doctors are coming in and
learning and and they're they'reonce.
A doctor knows this.
Hopefully they start talking toother doctors and we start to
get.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
They won't get very far, I think.
But well, I think the key pointis the doctors are learning
from the patients, and that'sthe way it would be agreed, and
that was another.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Another thing that you know we were talking about
today is, you know, navigatingthe medical world like in some
ways, well, in all ways, it'sthe patient's responsibility to
figure their problem out butit's not easy if you're up
against an obstinate oncologist.
Well, that's just it.
(09:07):
Like generally you get luck ofthe draw, like you go into
whatever your medical center isand say I've got this disease.
Or maybe you go in for bloodwork and they come and tell you
you've got this disease and thenall of a sudden you sort of
fall into this automatic systemwhere they assign you a doctor
and I think most people the newsthat you have cancer is so
(09:33):
traumatic to most people I thinkit really just knocks them back
.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
To have to battle the cancer and the oncologist too,
Right exactly, and I don't thinkmost people even try.
I don't think they even try tobattle them, I think they just
kind of they think okay, youknow, I'm gonna just follow the
oncologist and you know, as drexime emile always says, you
(09:59):
follow standard of care.
You get a outcome which, formany cancers, is terrible.
Well, we were talking aboutthat.
You really need the standard ofcare which is, in most cases,
necessary but not sufficient.
So we got to augment it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yes, indeed, and the thing is is like the standard of
care generally.
There's three basic ways theygo.
You got surgery, radiation andchemo.
Now they've got immunotherapyand some others.
But if you look at it, thesurgery, which is generally the
first line that they go after,is probably the least effective
(10:40):
in the sense of like with cancer.
By the time you can see it,it's so big that it's already
spreading right, I mean, it'salready breaking off I think we
have to make that assumption.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It's probably not true every time, but I think
that's the assumption.
That's got to be the workingassumption.
It's trying at least.
No, I was talking with Chihiro,yeah, and a young lady, a
daughter of a person who'scontacting with Chihiro, had, I
(11:14):
guess, a cancer similar to yours.
Looked like it originated onthe tongue.
They took out half the tongue,took out a big chunk of the jaw.
They replaced the jaw with somemetal.
Just think of the disfiguringsurgery you would have had and
(11:35):
that's what they wanted to dofirst.
I know Surgeons said by model,I do surgery and then you go to
radiation, then you go to chemo.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And that's the model.
And, yeah, I guess in somecases there's no choice, but
especially head and neck cancer.
Oh yeah, the disfigurement.
There's no way to get around it.
Surgeries do, and you know.
Imagine that this poor girllost half her tongue.
Oh yeah.
(12:05):
Yeah, it's awful, you know, andwith just a little common sense
, try neoadjuvant first.
What have you got to lose?
You've got nothing to lose, youknow, a few weeks of chemo hey,
(12:26):
it just may work.
Of course, when you're onmethionine restriction, there's
a better chance that it's goingto work.
Exactly, you need to change theparadigm.
I think you're the model forchanging the paradigm.
We can start with head and neckcancer.
You're such a clear example ofwhat to do and what not to do,
(12:52):
exactly example of what to doand what not to do Exactly, and
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Again, I listened to the first doctor and he told me
I probably didn't have cancer,which is how I do that.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
This guy's an outlier , he's an idiot, I mean, but
after that I got a little moreEvery grandmother could have
looked at you and said you gotcancer.
I mean, this guy, okay, he's anoutlier, we don't even want to
deal with it.
No, but the standard of carehere, you know, get the
(13:23):
disfiguring surgery first andthen go from there.
So it's really important.
But then they'll argue, yeah,but the chemo doesn't work that
good.
But then we say, hey, combineit with methionine restriction,
no big deal.
(13:45):
Well we should be doing thissince 1959.
It's mind blowing, wouldn't youthink We've got to?
Really, you've got to be theposter boy, joe.
Oh, I'm carrying the torch, youbet I am.
Now we've got to go to the nextstep and change the paradigm.
(14:06):
Right, you just said thechances of when you have a
primary tumor and it's alreadyvisible, being able to be
diagnosed.
Blah, blah, blah.
It's almost certainly spread.
Okay, we're going to try it.
What are you going to do?
We're going to go now toradiation, which is local, and
(14:29):
not deal with the very highprobability that you've got
cancer cells walking around yourbody.
So we've got to find a way foryou to get maintenance chemo,
and we're going to find it.
We will.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know we will.
It's not in the guidebook no no, but you know what?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
It's not for head and neck cancer.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
We're going to find the answer.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
I know we are it could be any kind of good chemo
like Chihiro takes.
It doesn't have to be, it'sjust something to keep the
cancer down, which is probablynot a high bar when you're on
methionine restriction.
(15:18):
Exactly Almost any kind of chemothere.
Their action is very similar.
They're cytotoxic.
They're not really cancer drugs, they're drugs that kill cells
that rapidly duplicate.
So it's not almost any of thosestandard drugs.
(15:40):
I think would be good for you.
And anyway, we're going to getthere and, worse comes to worse,
we'll go down to Tijuana to themost interesting drugstore I've
ever been at.
That's right down the road fromyou, or you walk upstairs to the
(16:00):
doc and tell him what you wantand you pay him five bucks and
he gives you a prescription.
Talk about freedom, right?
Freedom, freedom to determineyour own fate, freedom to
determine your own fate.
So I think you know let's getthe.
We need to get the scans We'vegot it.
We'll analyze the scans andthen we'll send everything to Dr
(16:23):
Castro and see what he says.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Another 10 days I get my scan and you know, I guess,
one of the really good thingsthere are two good things that
came.
Three good things came out ofwhat this card that I was dealt
was.
Number one it was visible, andso I was able to document the
progress with photographs.
(16:47):
And number two, it wasvirus-driven rather than drugs
and alcohol-driven, so thesurvivability rate was almost
double what it would have been.
And then number three the factthat it was virus-driven made
(17:10):
there be a blood marker that Ican test for and I can know for
sure if that virus is in mysystem then there's a likelihood
that it's making some cancercells.
If there's no virus in mysystem, then it's probably not.
I mean, it gives me at least apretty strong marker.
The only problem is, you know,cancer can change, it can mutate
(17:30):
, it can, it can turn intosomething else.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So in order to mutate , it needs a lot of divisions.
So if we, if we keep it down,either not dividing or very
slowly dividing, it's not goingto change that much, I I think I
think you're right and that'sthat's where I feel like I have
some control over the situation.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
So you know, I've made the decision that for the
rest of my life I'm not going togive it anything to grow on.
So I'm going to continue diet,I'm going to continue keeping
this enzyme with me.
If I'm, you know, going tobreak through a little bit, I'll
always have it as a backup.
But my diet is going to berigid and you know I can
(18:15):
continue my oxygen therapies, myexercise, all the other.
I'll probably off and on withthe ivermectin.
I don't know that I'm going tokeep on that all the time.
I don't think I need to.
But you know, sporadicallywe'll go into a few cycles.
I keep on it as much as you cantolerate, oh, okay.
Well, it doesn't bother me, Itake it without any problems.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I think it's very, very promising.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And then I still, like I learned from Dr Castro,
because of this diet it's verylow in protein and protein is
where you get a lot of your zincfrom.
So I'm now zinc deficient byjust the nature of my diet.
So I take a zinc supplement.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
No, because just part of my there you go and you know
if you really your blood comesback too low in protein, start
on some hominix I take it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
No, I take the hominix regularly.
I I go, then you're gonna be.
I take it because I exercise alot and I don't want to.
I try to build a little musclemass and you know, without
taking protein it's pretty hard.
So I take this With thehominids.
You're going to be fine.
Yeah, and I tolerate it fine,it doesn't bother me.
I put it in my coffee in themorning and just drink it and I
(19:33):
get all the aminos except formethionine and cysteine.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So that's right, and the body stitches together all
those aminos.
It finds the methionine left inthe body and you're all making
your protein.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Exactly, yeah.
And you know I've learned somuch, like you know, this thing
with the diet.
So many people have come downthe road that I came where we
cut out the sugar, we cut outthe carbs, we're eating protein
like crazy, because we thoughtit was fine.
And then you come to learn that, whoa, that's totally the
opposite.
And then I learned a lot aboutprotein.
You know, this has been such ajourney.
(20:02):
For me is just learning.
You know I'm always learning.
I think you know you inspire mewith all the research you do
and you're constantlyresearching.
But I've always been that waymyself, and anytime I stumbled
upon something I didn't know.
That's how I found you.
I was just researching, I wasjust looking for answers and all
(20:24):
of a sudden, one of thearticles you wrote about
cancer's addiction to methioninepopped into my field of vision
and it caught my eye, and sothat that one article that you
wrote has probably savedcountless lives, if it's, if it,
if it.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I hope so, joe.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I think it did.
I mean, and you've, you know wegotta get the word out.
Well, I know that, um, I knowthat that's what we're doing
with this, with theseconversations, and you know I to
always, while we're goingthrough this, I like to learn a
little bit about you and yourprocess and your history.
You know you've got such a richhistory, you've been at this
(21:02):
for so long, and I always liketo learn, like, how you go
through discovery, like, howmany experiments have you
documented while you'reresearching methionine?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Well, Joe, I started researching methionine in cancer
in 1973.
Right, so I can't count thathow many.
We probably have just on thatarea?
A couple hundred publicationsat least, maybe more, I don't
know All from different areas, alot.
(21:40):
We went through some dryperiods, you know, when the
injectable methionine causedsome problems with the
methioninease.
I'm sorry, oh yeah, killed amonkey, we lost a monkey, we got
you know.
That really depressed us.
Ten years later, well, maybe 15years later, Dr Hahn and Dr
(22:08):
Kawaguchi found you could takemethioninase by mouth.
Right, that started.
I mean, that was therenaissance.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
So since you discovered that, like when
you're going through, like rightnow, you spend your days
working, consulting, how do youspend a normal day?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Okay, well, I help out dr hon.
We're, you know, a real tinylittle organization, so I help
dr hon.
Uh, I check every vial to makesure it has enough methioninase.
Every single vial I check.
Usually I do that in theevening and then I finish up
(22:57):
putting the labels on the vialsin the morning because I get
tired of doing that stuff.
Then I try to do some creativework in the morning and I try to
write or revise a scientific,different scientific paper every
(23:22):
day if I can, trying to get asmany papers out there as
possible.
And you know, then, kind oftoward the middle of the day, I
kind of run down, I kind of dozeoff in the chair and then, as
(23:43):
the afternoon proceeds, I've gotto take all the methioninase I
take methioninase over to FedExand get it all shipped out.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
How long does the process to make the methioninase
over to FedEx and get it allshipped?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
out.
How long does the process tomake the methioninase?
Well, it's two big steps.
The one step is to ferment ourspecial genetically engineered
bacterium, which is a standard Ecoli.
Tons of it in our in our gut.
And this e coli has beenengineered to have the
(24:19):
methioninase gene, which comesfrom a bacteria in the soil, a
really tough bug calledpseudomonas pudida.
So the first step is to fermentit.
So you start out with a littleculture on like Monday, and then
on Tuesday this is all done byDr Lee.
On Tuesday he has enough of thelittle culture to inoculate
(24:43):
about a nine liter culture,which is on a very fancy
fermenter.
The air, the oxygen, theagitation, the pH, it's very,
very sophisticated.
Temperature with all theselittle lights flashing and
curves, great environment thoughyeah, it's real Star Wars, so
(25:08):
that's an overnight culture, Iguess.
From that culture we get on theorder of 10 grams of
methioninase once it's purified.
So Dr Hahn now is purifyingmethioninase once a month.
(25:32):
So he gathers together fourweeks of the product of the
fermentation where we centrifugethe bacteria.
We call it making a cake, okay,a blob of bacteria that have
tons of methioninase in it.
Then he has to open the cell.
(25:53):
Okay, oh, okay, I'm going tohave to plug in here a little
bit, joe, and my phone isgetting warm.
No worries, I hear you, okay.
So then you have to kind ofexplode the cells open and you
(26:18):
go through some steps, one ofwhich is heat.
The methioninase is very heatresistant.
The rest of the proteins in thebacteria are not.
They precipitate like when youboil an egg, okay, but the
methioninase stays in solution.
And then he precipitates itwith what's called polyethylene
glycol you may know it as anantifreeze, but it's got a lot
(26:42):
of uses in biochemistry and thenhe puts it over a column which
separates it from most of theother proteins by their charge.
Every protein has a little bitdifferent charge, positive or
negative, and you can see themethioninase because it's
brilliant yellow, oh, wow.
And the yellow comes from itsso-called coenzyme or cofactor.
(27:07):
Vitamin B6, which is a cofactorfor many enzymes in the body,
got it.
And when you're swigging yourmethioninase, you're swigging a
little bit of vitamin B6 too.
All right, make sure it keepsworking.
So that's pretty much it.
And when you're swigging yourmethioninase, you're swigging a
little bit of vitamin B6 too.
All right, make sure it keepsworking.
So that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
And how much does he generally generate in this
one-month purification?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Right now we're generating probably between 30
and 40 grams and that's probablythe order of about 100 patients
.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And is that how many patients you're serving right
now?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah about, so we can expand by the controller of the
fermenter.
Now is running one big vessel,a 10-liter vessel We've built
built about nine, so we'd liketo save up a little money and
get a second vessel.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Probably 30-something K.
But we have so many expensesElectricity, because of all the
stuff we have here justelectricity is $4,000 a month.
Wow, it's a killer.
Rent is is 4,000 a month Wow,it's a killer.
Rent is 11,000 something.
I mean it's just, it's reallytough just to break even, which
(28:51):
is all we want to do is breakeven.
So that's where we are.
You know we're pretty flat out.
So that's where we are.
You know we're pretty flat out,and but we're trying to save up
a little and get that secondvessel.
Then we'll be able to serve 200a month.
Nice, nice.
(29:20):
Well, I'm here to help you dothat, as I can bring more people
and in these conversationsI'm'm meeting people, people are
finding me and okay, well, youknow we're, we're a 501c3 corp.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Everything is taxed, tax deductible.
Yeah, I hear you, I and and youknow it's funny people think,
oh, you know, the enzyme'sexpensive.
It's a thousand dollars a monththat's.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
It probably costs a little more than that to make it
.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I believe that I have no problem paying it because I
know you guys are the real dealand I know I'm absolutely pro
bono.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I live off my Social Security.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
No doubt I understand I have such a deep respect for
you and the work you're doing.
I didn't, I didn't need to knowthose details, but I I kind of
assumed them.
I just I just can the the, thecharacter that you have, the
work that you're doing, and justjust your willingness to, to
(30:13):
share.
I was sharing the story abouthow I ran across you.
I sent an email and you said Istill remember that email.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You just signed it, Joe.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, and then you said give me a call.
And I called you and you pickedup the phone.
And every time I call you, youpick up that phone and if you
don't, you call me right back.
And that tells me the kind ofperson you are and I try to be
that kind of person as well.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Joe, a little bit warning that my phone said
getting hot so it'llautomatically shut off with no,
it'll just go boom.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Well, we'll go ahead and preemptively cut it down.
We're down at about the 30minute mark anyways.
So, Robert, it's always it's apleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I really just Me too, joe, and I'll see you on sunday
, yes, you will.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I'm back at it.
I've got.
I'm gonna have some companyever.
So I probably won't be able tobe on the call for the whole
call, but that's okay I likejoining.
Every minute you're on the call, you're inspiring somebody all
right, that's what I'm here todo, and you inspire me, so thank
you so much.
Thank you, joe.
Thank you so much, too, foreverything.
We'll see you on Sunday, okay,all right, this has been the
(31:25):
Healthy Living Podcast, andwe'll see you all next week.
Thanks for joining us.
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