June 6, 2025 • 29 mins
Dr. Douglas Beck hosts a special episode featuring audiology pioneers Dr. David Majit and Dr. Gary Dorf, whose combined experience spans nearly a century in hearing healthcare. Unlike typical clinical discussions, this conversation reveals the personal journeys of two professionals who helped transform audiology during its formative years.
Their stories weave through pivotal industry moments – from building successful California practices to lecturing in Japan where they introduced binaural fitting techniques to practitioners accustomed to monaural solutions. The conversation takes entertaining detours, including Dr. Dorff's memorable dinner seated next to Mick Jagger and their experience with "The Bubble," a non-electronic device that briefly revolutionized mild hearing loss treatment.
What emerges beyond the professional milestones is their genuine passion for audiology. As Dr. Dorff reflects after nearly 50 years: "I never felt it was work. I enjoyed every bit of audiology I touched." Both emphasize how the profession continues offering rich opportunities for those seeking to combine technological innovation with meaningful human connection. Their journey illuminates how far audiology has come and why it remains an exceptionally rewarding career for those committed to improving lives through better hearing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Blaise M. Delfino, M.S. - (00:19):
Thank you to our partners.
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(00:41):
Welcome back to another episodeof the Hearing Matters Podcast.
I'm founder and host BlaiseDelfino and, as a friendly
reminder, this podcast isseparate from my work at Starkey
.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (00:56):
Good afternoon.
This is Dr Douglas Beck withthe Hearing Matters Podcast, and
this is a very unusual HearingMatters Podcast.
As you know, we almost alwaysdo clinical and academic stuff.
We don't talk about very manyother things.
And this time is really specialfor me because I've known these
two guys for about 40, 45 years.
Dr David Magie, dr Gary Dorff,and we work together here and
(01:18):
there and they are dear friendsof mine.
Gary's actually retired, whichmeans he's working part-time.
David is still workingfull-time and for those of us
who know David, that meanspart-time anyway.
So you guys, welcome to theHearing Matters podcast.
Dr. David Majit (01:33):
I'm so glad you're here.
We're very honored to be here,Dr Beck.
Thank you for having us.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (01:36):
Thank you, doug, always good seeing you
Well, thank you and seriouslyit's an honor to work with you
guys because you've been througheverything in the last 45 years
in our industry and in ourprofession and it's been quite a
ride and I'm so glad that mostof it I was on that journey with
you guys along the way, hereand there.
So let's start with Dr, mymaster's degree, and this was
(01:57):
the 76th.
Dr. Gary Dorf (02:07):
And in 76, ASHA frowned upon and called it
unethical for audiologists todispense hearing aids.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (02:16):
Indeed they did.
Yeah, that went on until about79, yeah.
Dr. Gary Dorf (02:19):
That's right.
And I kind of thumbed my noseat ASHA and I did work for a
private practice dispenser inQueens, new York, and because of
that I had some hearing aidexperience.
And after I graduated, in theASHA journals there was this
opportunity in Saskatoon,saskatchewan Say that five times
fast Saskatoon, saskatchewan.
(02:42):
So truthfully, I had noknowledge where the heck this
place was and I called up andinterviewed on the telephone and
they were desperately lookingfor an audiologist to dispense
hearing aids and I was veryprobably one of the very few
that was had that type ofexperience.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (03:03):
To add a little bit of color there.
You know this was such a bigdeal in 77, 78, 79, because ASHA
had said it was a conflict ofinterest or unethical or
whatever the terms were, basedon a ruling where they came down
to engineering professions hadvery, very little to do with us,
but they thought it wasprobably a conflict of interest
for you to diagnose and treatthe same patient.
(03:24):
And of course I guess theynever heard of neurosurgery at
that time or otolaryngology orOBGYN or anything.
But yeah, that was theirthought is that it was a
conflict, because now youdiagnosed, you know what the
problem is and you sell thesolution.
Dr. Gary Dorf (03:37):
So that opportunity number one got me
out of New York because I wasreally interested in traveling a
bit and it was in Saskatchewanand, not knowing where it was
during the interview I asked thegentleman so how do I get to
Saskatchewan?
This is absolutely the truth.
He said, well, if you do takethe job and you plan on driving
out here, just go to NorthDakota and make a right.
(03:59):
And he said just keep driving.
And the second decent-sizedcity you run into was saskatoon.
So, anyway, that's where I Ikind of uh, we really really
began dispensing in earnest.
Uh, I worked a lot of time forthe school for the deaf.
It was a fabulous job travelingto all the northwest
territories, indigenous people,and it was.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (04:22):
It was a wonderful start to my career, I
think it's extraordinary toobecause, as you say, back then
you know we had audiologistswith masters and PhDs but we
really did not have a lot ofhearing aid knowledge and nobody
did, frankly.
And so it was about that time1988, 182, is when all the books
really started to come out andall of them almost exclusively,
(04:44):
you know, were written byaudiologists on hearing aid
dispensing.
And how do you know how muchgain to apply, how much output,
you know, and all of thetechnical stuff that goes into
programming and fitting hearingaids.
That was all coming out of theaudiology literature in the 80s
and 90s.
And but I agree that back thenif you were trying to start a
clinic that had hearing aiddispensing, you know there
(05:05):
weren't really that many expertsin hearing aid dispensing in
audiology because we wereprohibited from doing it.
But it changed rather rapidlyand complete 180 after that.
And you know, even back inthose days I remember in 84, 85,
86, you know people say, oh,you know, you're an audiologist,
what do you know about hearingaids?
And you know it was really adivisive issue and it was
(05:28):
unfortunate because we oftenfound ourselves working in two
different lands, right, the landof audiology and the land of
hearing aids and audiologists.
Of course, by that time, 82, 81, 80, they were taking all the
courses on hearing aids andteaching all those courses.
So it had changed quitedramatically during those years
and my hat's off to you, becauseit's quite a burden when your
(05:51):
professional home, which wasASHA back in the time because
AAA didn't exist is telling youthat what you're doing is
unethical or immoral or wrong.
Pretty soon thereafter theychanged their mind.
Dr. Gary Dorf (06:00):
Everybody, and my professors included, when they
found out, because I wasn't shyabout telling them that I was
doing some part-time dispensingthey kind of frowned upon it.
So anyway, the job in Canadawas just wonderful.
They did hire about three orfour more American audiologists
to bring up, because in Canadaat that time they really didn't
have a program, so they wereimporting audiologists and it
(06:24):
was just a great three years ofmy life, you know, being a fish
out of water and just in theland.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (06:30):
Absolutely, and your friend's direction on
how to get to Saskatchewanreminded me that in 1964,
february 9th, 8 o'clock pm,channel 2 in New York, wcbs,
after the Beatles were on EdSullivan at that moment.
The next day there were someinterviews and they said oh well
(06:50):
, mr McCartney, how did you findthe Medica?
And he said, oh, we made a leftat Ireland.
Okay, so I think you'refinished, doug.
Dr. David Majit (07:00):
I would just like to comment that I don't
think it's fair to Dr Dorff thathe was labeled unethical and
immoral for dispensing.
I think there are so many othergood reasons why that label is
stuck with him, but I don'tthink it has anything to do with
dispensing.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (07:18):
So I'm in your corner.
I appreciate that clarification.
David, if you don't mind, tellus a little bit about your
education.
You started as well in New York, right?
Dr. David Majit (07:27):
Yes, actually, I did my graduate work at the
University of Connecticut andgrowing up in New York, where
I'm from, I always had thisthing about California and now
one day I would love to livethere and I was married but no
children.
So I decided, hey, that was agood opportunity, and so we
drove out to California.
(07:48):
I got a position as a clinicalaudiologist at the University of
California, san Francisco,which I worked at for just about
three years and they werepretty progressive in that we
started a dispensing programthere in 76.
And I started that and ran thatand it was a great experience.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (08:10):
Did you run into any?
Of those issues that Gary wasmentioning where you were
prohibited from dispensing in 76?
Dr. David Majit (08:17):
Oh, we were not .
And actually what wasinteresting was the director of
the program.
His name was Robert Flower, PhD, and he was the president of
ASHA, and he had no problemswith us starting a dispensing
program because he felt it wasin the best interest of the
patient rather than us tocontinue to refer out.
So I give him a lot of creditand the foresight that he showed
(08:40):
in allowing us to start thatJust incredible.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (08:42):
Now was Robert Cerrito there when you
were there.
Dr. David Majit (08:45):
Robert was not.
Robert was the head of thespeech and hearing clinic in San
Francisco.
As I say, Robert Flower was thedirector and again, it was a
wonderful experience.
Learned a lot there aboutclinical audiology as well as
distensing.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (09:02):
Sure.
And where'd you go after that,Dave, after UCSF?
Dr. David Majit (09:05):
After that I found that I was really more
interested in the business partof audiology and I was
approached by a couple of peoplewho were starting a new
business Right and Knox Brooks,who you may have heard of.
I remember Knox dearly.
What a wonderful guy yeah, areally bright guy ahead of his
time as far as being a hearingaid dispenser, and a fellow
(09:28):
named Richard Scott Sure.
So I joined them and moved toSouthern California, which made
my wife very happy, since it'smuch warmer weather.
Oh yeah, and we started thatbusiness back in 1977.
And then the rest is history,and that's where we actually.
We had met Gary in 1978 at anASHA convention, and Gary was
(09:54):
there to look to purchase someequipment for his clinics in
Saskatoon, and I think he wasalso considering moving to
Saskatoon at that time.
I think he had enough of thecold weather.
And we interviewed him and weoffered him a position.
And, gary, why don't youexplain what determining factor
made you decide to join us?
Dr. Gary Dorf (10:15):
So the short story is and David had every
fact correct what he justindicated in late 78.
Correct what he just indicatedin late 78,.
I was asked by the Saskatoongovernment, province of
Saskatchewan, to go down toAshen and buy some audiologic
equipment.
I went down there.
I ran into a very dear friendof mine from New York, ron
(10:40):
Meltzner, who at that point wasworking for Widex Hearing Aid
Company and later became thepresident of Widex USA and Hal
Henn.
And Hal Henn, and he introducedme to David and Dick because he
knew they were working the Widexproduct number one as a
consulting firm and they werealso looking for an audiologist.
Now they had just received thecontract with the LA City School
System which at that point hadthe largest deaf and hard of
(11:03):
hearing program in the nation,and they needed somebody to
manage that.
So I gave it some thoughtbecause David was right.
I've been in Saskatoon abouttwo and a half years and I was
looking towards New York.
I never thought Californiawould be an option and anyway
David invited me one night to aparty bus that they had rented
(11:24):
for a lot of their accounts.
I said what the hell?
I really didn't know manypeople.
So it ended up in Chinatown ata restaurant and, you know,
towards the evening I thankedDavid and Richard, who was on
the bus as well, and I said letme give it some thought.
And I didn't have to give itmuch thought because next
morning I looked in the mirrorand said California, here I come
(11:45):
.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (11:46):
Oh, that's great, that's great.
So you worked with you guysworked with a lot of the folks
that I was touching base withback in those days and it was so
much fun to be in theprofession back then because
everybody was about sharingknowledge and supporting each
other and you know it was quitewhat's a good word word.
It was a very exciting youngprofession.
I mean, the profession's beenaround since the end of world
(12:06):
war ii.
And david you were talkingabout, sir, and that was mark
ross, was there back in thosedays and mark was another lovely
guy just you know give you theshirt off his back and so well
versed in oral rehabilitationand everything he went through
in the military with his hearingloss.
Just just an amazing situation.
I think you guys were reallythere in the heyday and what a
(12:27):
great ride.
So I have a couple of questionsI want to ask about.
So Gary Mick Jagger called andhe mentioned that he had dinner
with you recently.
Can you talk about that?
Dr. Gary Dorf (12:37):
So obviously I've been covering Hollywood and LA
and Beverly Hills for the last40 years so I have had, as David
has had, several opportunitiesto meet famous people and
actually help fit several famouspeople.
So, without name dropping, mickJagger.
The story about Mick Jagger wasI actually was at dinner with
my lovely wife Debra late onenight in Beverly Hills at a kind
(13:00):
of a sushi hole-in-the-wallrestaurant, and it was about
11.30, 12 o'clock.
The place was pretty jammedbecause it is small and in that
room they have tables that arelike five inches from each other
right, oh yeah, typical sushi.
And there's the only table inthe place left is literally
(13:21):
right next to mine.
I mean this distance away fromme, like as close as I am to you
.
Anyway, I'm facing the door andin walks Mick Jagger and the
only seat is next to me and incomes Mick Jagger and I'm
following him and Debbie'ssitting opposite me.
She doesn't see him at thispoint and finally he gets to be
right over here and he's comingto sit very close to me and I
(13:45):
literally have to get off and weliterally rub shoulders.
He sits down.
You know, I'm like this issurreal.
Everybody in the restaurantobviously takes out their phone
and this and that.
Anyway, he sits down next to meand I have no recollection,
truthfully, of what I said to meand I have no recollection,
(14:07):
truthfully, of what I said, butI did introduce myself and
ultimately, being theprofessional he is, he said well
, it's very nice to meet you andyour lovely wife and I hope you
have a wonderful dinner and theconversation so you guys are
kind of like this it served itserved my purpose.
Dr. David Majit (14:22):
Gary, don't forget or leave out the part
that immediately after that hemoved his table.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (14:27):
Yes, he did .
Oh yeah, See, that was the parthe told me.
Dr. David Majit (14:32):
Gary neglects to include that.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (14:34):
After you spilled his wine, because you
were so close and your hand didhis wine.
Dr. Gary Dorf (14:39):
Sorry, doug, he stayed there about 10 minutes
and if the name Nobu meansanything to anybody in the sushi
world, this was Nobu's firstrestaurant.
And out comes Nobu, standingbehind me, talking to Mick
Jagger and asking if he wouldlike to move his table.
And Mick did flinch an eye andthey found the table that had
(15:02):
just opened up on the other sideof the room.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (15:04):
So, david, I was looking you up, you know,
because we were.
You know, shoot, I think Ifirst started working with you
guys in the mid 80s, somethinglike that.
There was a time when I livedin Seal Beach and you guys had a
clinical and a business officein Seal Beach, california right
outside of the leisure world, Imight add, and you know it was
an amazing situation becausethat was the first office that I
(15:26):
ever saw that I thought, oh,this makes sense, having a
hearing aid office right in theshopping mall there, strip mall
of a retirement home.
That was brilliant and I knowthat office did so well for very
, very long because of the twoof you and David.
What I was going to say is Ifirst read about you, though, in
1985 in the LA Times.
Dr. David Majit (15:53):
That was a very interesting time.
We called it the bubble.
It was made by Innovate and itwas a plastic earpiece that just
fit in the ear with noelectronics that was supposed to
give you a boost from the 2,000to 4,000 hertz range of about
(16:14):
10 to 12 dB, and so it wasdesigned for mild high-frequency
losses, and I can tell you thatarticle propelled us for the
next two years.
I know it was so busy.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (16:26):
It was unbelievable and, honestly, the
guy mentioned you and hementioned CLB, whoever was doing
the interview, and I rememberthat back in those days because
I knew you back then.
I remember that innovate wasquite a big thing for
audiologists and dispensers andfolks who don't know.
It was as david described.
You would take a customimpression and there's no
electronics at all.
It was just a shell and,exactly as david said, it was
(16:49):
supposed to resonate at twothousand to to 4,000 hertz.
Well, male ear canal resonanceis maximal at about 2,700 hertz.
Female canal resonance ismaximal at about 3,100 hertz.
So you know they had thislittle pocket that they were
doing and I think some peoplegot really good results.
I mean, they were the darnthing.
Dr. David Majit (17:07):
Yeah, and that was a very popular device.
It was reasonably inexpensivefor the patient and again people
were coming in with severe toprofound losses begging to try
this product.
So it was an interesting time.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (17:24):
And now they're off the market for a
long time.
So, gary, more interesting thanaudiology, I think, is probably
being a taxi driver in New Yorkand, if I recall, your dad had
a medallion, right?
Dr. Gary Dorf (17:34):
Wow, very good, doug.
Yes, my dad bought a medallion.
He had, his two older brothershad provided him some funding
and he bought a medallion.
Yeah, in 19.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (17:44):
Tell us what a medallion is, because I
don't think people in 2025.
Dr. Gary Dorf (17:48):
Okay.
Well, my dad struggled to findhis place and his workplace and
he wound up driving a cab a taxicab in New York, and in order
to be your own boss, basicallydriving rather than working for
a fleet of taxi cabs which waspretty prominent in New York at
that time you would pay the citya fee for a medallion, and the
(18:09):
medallion oddly enough, believeit or not, I have one behind me.
It's not visual here here, butit's up okay, because I I bought
one at a swap meet a couple ofyears ago.
It's just the tag thatindicates that you own this cab
and you are self-employed.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (18:25):
Basically, and, yes, medallions though.
Yeah, I mean, they could go fora quarter million bucks.
Dr. Gary Dorf (18:30):
So my dad, yes, bought it for $16,000 at
probably mid-60s and it was hisself-employment.
He worked, you know, six days aweek, eight hours a day, 10
hours a day, and then he sold itfor $78,000, for like about
$47,000.
So it appreciated prettyquickly.
But you know, medallions kindof did get up to almost a
(18:54):
million dollars until Uber hit.
And if you hear Mark Cuban talk, he said the investment he
didn't make, which was the worstchoice, was an Uber, because he
felt that the taxi industrywould never allow Uber in the
big cities and that was hisreason for not investing.
And look what happened to thetaxi drivers.
(19:14):
They're kind of a, you knowthey're still there.
But boy, medallions are down toalmost nothing at this point.
But do you?
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (19:21):
even need a medallion anymore to drive in
New York for a taxi.
Dr. Gary Dorf (19:24):
Yeah, yeah, the medallion is still a viable
option to be self-employed.
But you know there's a lot ofgraft in that.
We found out afterwards.
So yeah, it's certainly not the1960 medallion that my dad had.
Thanks for asking.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (19:39):
Doug, oh, absolutely.
And David, did I hear somethingthat you lectured in Japan, or
did I get that wrong?
Dr. David Majit (19:44):
Actually you did hear that.
I'm not sure who you heard itfrom.
I won't say it was a maliciousrumor, but I did go to Japan for
Widex, because what was goingon in Japan back in the late 90s
and early 2000s was that theywere still fitting monorail
people 90% of the time, ormonorail hearing aids 90% of the
(20:07):
time, I should say and theydidn't really have a good grasp
of the hearing aid industry.
There is no audiology in Japan.
If people wanted an audiologydegree they would go to
Australia to attend universitythere and there were very few
audiologists.
And so the people in Japan,especially the Widex people who
(20:31):
we were working with, thoughtwhat was going on in the US was
really cutting edge.
So I would go over there andgive some talks to the people at
Widex, japan and so forth, andthen one time they invited both
Gary and I to do a tour withthem, which was quite
interesting.
I think we did four differentlectures throughout Japan in the
(20:53):
different large cities, and,unlike seminars that we'd have
here we might get 20 or 30people, we had hundreds of
people attend these meetings andthey'd all be wearing
headphones to translate what wewere saying.
And what was fun was when theywould start the meeting.
They would kind of, you know,go through the agenda and then
(21:15):
they would introduce Gary and Ito the music born in the USA by
Bruce Springsteen, and it wasreally a big deal.
As you know, the Japanesepersonality is such they're
quite shy in front of largegroups.
So one would say are there anyquestions?
Maybe we'd get one or twoquestions from the audience, but
then afterwards one would go toare there any questions?
(21:35):
Maybe we'd get one or twoquestions from the audience, but
then afterwards one would go tothe buffet.
There would be lines of peoplewaiting to ask us questions, and
it was just a fantasticexperience.
Dr. Gary Dorf (21:47):
Gary, would you like to expand on that a little
bit?
No, it was really specialbecause one of the things I
don't think David had alluded to, one of the reasons Sato-san,
who was the president of WidexJapan at that point really a
nice guy.
He invited us over because theproviders there really fit about
90% monorally.
They wanted us to teach themhow to fit binaurally because
(22:11):
the doctors were in charge butthey were afraid to usurp what
the doctors had recommended tothem.
So we did a stage where Davidand I role played to these
hundreds and hundreds of people.
I remember the Tokyo session wasin a disco hall, you know it
wasn't with the disco ballhanging above us.
(22:32):
It love it.
It was kind of surreal.
And then we got up on stage andI forgot that there's an
interpreter standing right nextto me and I'm starting to talk
to David and then somebody tapsme on the shoulder and said slow
down, slow down.
So we had a blast and Santo-sancouldn't be more.
I mean, he was really, reallygenerous of his time.
We had a great time.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (22:54):
It was a lot of fun, All right.
Well, listen, I'm so honoredyou guys spent some time here
tonight.
Tell me you've been, I want tosay, 48, 49 years an audiologist
and what are your reflectionson that and your advice for
young audiologists?
Dr. David Majit (23:05):
Well, thank you , doug, for the question.
I think it's a very interestingfield.
I think it's so varied field.
I think it's so varied.
There's so many aspects ofaudiology that one can get into,
aside from doing dispensing.
There's the diagnostics andthere's the balance and there's
the rehab and so on and so forth.
So there's really and likeyourself, where you got involved
(23:28):
in surgery and so forth socochlear implants.
So there's a lot of differentaspects of audiology, and so I
think it's very interesting.
I think you're doing a greatservice by really helping people
who really need may not want itinitially, but really need the
assistance.
So the field has been very goodto carry on.
(23:49):
I have to say that we've beenvery fortunate.
I think it's still a field thatone can thrive in if they're
motivated and ambitious, and soI would certainly recommend for
those people who are interestedin helping people, something
that you can do, where you'rereally spending the time really
(24:10):
improving yourself and improvinglives for other people.
So I would certainly encouragepeople to consider audiology as
a profession.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (24:19):
And, oddly enough, apparently you
considered that when yourecommended to your son, andrew,
that he should become anaudiologist, right?
So, yeah, yeah, give us 30seconds on Andrew.
Andrew Maggi, one of myfavorite, one of the funniest
people in all of audiology.
I love listening to him lecture.
And, gary, let's look at youfor a few seconds before we let
(24:39):
you roll and tell me yourreflections.
You're at this a while as well.
Tell me about your thoughts onthe profession and what do you
think about the future ofaudiology.
Dr. Gary Dorf (24:48):
Well, you know, getting into the profession at
the beginning, you know younever sit.
You know, getting into theprofession at the beginning, you
know you never sit.
I'm now 49 years in, so youknow who thought.
You know, number one, theprofession would provide me such
joy.
You know, I never felt it waswork.
I enjoyed every part of everybit of audiology that I touched
(25:09):
and that goes from.
You know, the time in Canadadispensing working for kids in
school for the deaf.
You know, running our ownbusiness, whether it's the
retail business or theconsulting business, I mean the
run we've had has been justamazing.
I do want to shout out to a fewpeople that we have had by our
side for many years.
(25:29):
Donna Brzozowski, who manypeople might know, and Terry
Canfield really helped supportboth of our businesses and
without them and the otherpeople who they all know who
they are, who worked for us,they were instrumental in the
fun we had.
But also how well thebusinesses did.
You know, for me, going backinto the clinic and seeing
patients kind of going fullcircle, and seeing patients kind
(25:55):
of going full circle, I can'teven begin to think of how many
people we have helped over thesepast 40, 50 years both David I
and you in terms of making theirlives better and look for a job
.
If anybody's looking for aposition or a career, audiology
is really, really a terrificopportunity and option because
you're dealing with technology.
(26:16):
You're dealing with the growthof an industry.
You're dealing with the growthof technology, but you're also
helping people and for me, goingback into the clinic and ending
my career at some point seeingpatients I can't imagine a
richer opportunity for thosepeople who are looking to make
their way in the world.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (26:35):
I couldn't be happier.
Well, you know we could go onand on for hours, but I wanted
to give you guys the chance tobe on Hearing Matters podcast.
I think you're both giants inthe profession and the industry.
And I think that you know,although there are, admittedly,
thousands, of thousands ofpeople who know you most of them
, oddly enough, know you asprofessionals they don't know
(26:56):
you as individuals and the stuffyou've been through and
accomplished.
So I'm glad that we had theopportunity to address some of
that.
I love you guys, I'm so proudof you both and I will look
forward to the next time we gettogether.
Dr. David Majit (27:07):
Well, thank you , Doug, and just another quick
word.
We want to congratulate you onall the many, many contributions
you've made to the professionand to all the audiologists out
there.
Thank you so much.
You guys have a great evening.
Take care.
Thanks again, Doug.
Thank you to our partners.
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Redux, the best dryer, handsdown Caption call by Sorenson.
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(00:41):
Welcome back to another episodeof the Hearing Matters Podcast.
I'm founder and host BlaiseDelfino and, as a friendly
reminder, this podcast isseparate from my work at Starkey
.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (00:56):
Good afternoon.
This is Dr Douglas Beck withthe Hearing Matters Podcast, and
this is a very unusual HearingMatters Podcast.
As you know, we almost alwaysdo clinical and academic stuff.
We don't talk about very manyother things.
And this time is really specialfor me because I've known these
two guys for about 40, 45 years.
Dr David Magie, dr Gary Dorff,and we work together here and
(01:18):
there and they are dear friendsof mine.
Gary's actually retired, whichmeans he's working part-time.
David is still workingfull-time and for those of us
who know David, that meanspart-time anyway.
So you guys, welcome to theHearing Matters podcast.
Dr. David Majit (01:33):
I'm so glad you're here.
We're very honored to be here,Dr Beck.
Thank you for having us.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (01:36):
Thank you, doug, always good seeing you
Well, thank you and seriouslyit's an honor to work with you
guys because you've been througheverything in the last 45 years
in our industry and in ourprofession and it's been quite a
ride and I'm so glad that mostof it I was on that journey with
you guys along the way, hereand there.
So let's start with Dr, mymaster's degree, and this was
(01:57):
the 76th.
Dr. Gary Dorf (02:07):
And in 76, ASHA frowned upon and called it
unethical for audiologists todispense hearing aids.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (02:16):
Indeed they did.
Yeah, that went on until about79, yeah.
Dr. Gary Dorf (02:19):
That's right.
And I kind of thumbed my noseat ASHA and I did work for a
private practice dispenser inQueens, new York, and because of
that I had some hearing aidexperience.
And after I graduated, in theASHA journals there was this
opportunity in Saskatoon,saskatchewan Say that five times
fast Saskatoon, saskatchewan.
(02:42):
So truthfully, I had noknowledge where the heck this
place was and I called up andinterviewed on the telephone and
they were desperately lookingfor an audiologist to dispense
hearing aids and I was veryprobably one of the very few
that was had that type ofexperience.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (03:03):
To add a little bit of color there.
You know this was such a bigdeal in 77, 78, 79, because ASHA
had said it was a conflict ofinterest or unethical or
whatever the terms were, basedon a ruling where they came down
to engineering professions hadvery, very little to do with us,
but they thought it wasprobably a conflict of interest
for you to diagnose and treatthe same patient.
(03:24):
And of course I guess theynever heard of neurosurgery at
that time or otolaryngology orOBGYN or anything.
But yeah, that was theirthought is that it was a
conflict, because now youdiagnosed, you know what the
problem is and you sell thesolution.
Dr. Gary Dorf (03:37):
So that opportunity number one got me
out of New York because I wasreally interested in traveling a
bit and it was in Saskatchewanand, not knowing where it was
during the interview I asked thegentleman so how do I get to
Saskatchewan?
This is absolutely the truth.
He said, well, if you do takethe job and you plan on driving
out here, just go to NorthDakota and make a right.
(03:59):
And he said just keep driving.
And the second decent-sizedcity you run into was saskatoon.
So, anyway, that's where I Ikind of uh, we really really
began dispensing in earnest.
Uh, I worked a lot of time forthe school for the deaf.
It was a fabulous job travelingto all the northwest
territories, indigenous people,and it was.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (04:22):
It was a wonderful start to my career, I
think it's extraordinary toobecause, as you say, back then
you know we had audiologistswith masters and PhDs but we
really did not have a lot ofhearing aid knowledge and nobody
did, frankly.
And so it was about that time1988, 182, is when all the books
really started to come out andall of them almost exclusively,
(04:44):
you know, were written byaudiologists on hearing aid
dispensing.
And how do you know how muchgain to apply, how much output,
you know, and all of thetechnical stuff that goes into
programming and fitting hearingaids.
That was all coming out of theaudiology literature in the 80s
and 90s.
And but I agree that back thenif you were trying to start a
clinic that had hearing aiddispensing, you know there
(05:05):
weren't really that many expertsin hearing aid dispensing in
audiology because we wereprohibited from doing it.
But it changed rather rapidlyand complete 180 after that.
And you know, even back inthose days I remember in 84, 85,
86, you know people say, oh,you know, you're an audiologist,
what do you know about hearingaids?
And you know it was really adivisive issue and it was
(05:28):
unfortunate because we oftenfound ourselves working in two
different lands, right, the landof audiology and the land of
hearing aids and audiologists.
Of course, by that time, 82, 81, 80, they were taking all the
courses on hearing aids andteaching all those courses.
So it had changed quitedramatically during those years
and my hat's off to you, becauseit's quite a burden when your
(05:51):
professional home, which wasASHA back in the time because
AAA didn't exist is telling youthat what you're doing is
unethical or immoral or wrong.
Pretty soon thereafter theychanged their mind.
Dr. Gary Dorf (06:00):
Everybody, and my professors included, when they
found out, because I wasn't shyabout telling them that I was
doing some part-time dispensingthey kind of frowned upon it.
So anyway, the job in Canadawas just wonderful.
They did hire about three orfour more American audiologists
to bring up, because in Canadaat that time they really didn't
have a program, so they wereimporting audiologists and it
(06:24):
was just a great three years ofmy life, you know, being a fish
out of water and just in theland.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (06:30):
Absolutely, and your friend's direction on
how to get to Saskatchewanreminded me that in 1964,
february 9th, 8 o'clock pm,channel 2 in New York, wcbs,
after the Beatles were on EdSullivan at that moment.
The next day there were someinterviews and they said oh well
(06:50):
, mr McCartney, how did you findthe Medica?
And he said, oh, we made a leftat Ireland.
Okay, so I think you'refinished, doug.
Dr. David Majit (07:00):
I would just like to comment that I don't
think it's fair to Dr Dorff thathe was labeled unethical and
immoral for dispensing.
I think there are so many othergood reasons why that label is
stuck with him, but I don'tthink it has anything to do with
dispensing.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (07:18):
So I'm in your corner.
I appreciate that clarification.
David, if you don't mind, tellus a little bit about your
education.
You started as well in New York, right?
Dr. David Majit (07:27):
Yes, actually, I did my graduate work at the
University of Connecticut andgrowing up in New York, where
I'm from, I always had thisthing about California and now
one day I would love to livethere and I was married but no
children.
So I decided, hey, that was agood opportunity, and so we
drove out to California.
(07:48):
I got a position as a clinicalaudiologist at the University of
California, san Francisco,which I worked at for just about
three years and they werepretty progressive in that we
started a dispensing programthere in 76.
And I started that and ran thatand it was a great experience.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (08:10):
Did you run into any?
Of those issues that Gary wasmentioning where you were
prohibited from dispensing in 76?
Dr. David Majit (08:17):
Oh, we were not .
And actually what wasinteresting was the director of
the program.
His name was Robert Flower, PhD, and he was the president of
ASHA, and he had no problemswith us starting a dispensing
program because he felt it wasin the best interest of the
patient rather than us tocontinue to refer out.
So I give him a lot of creditand the foresight that he showed
(08:40):
in allowing us to start thatJust incredible.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (08:42):
Now was Robert Cerrito there when you
were there.
Dr. David Majit (08:45):
Robert was not.
Robert was the head of thespeech and hearing clinic in San
Francisco.
As I say, Robert Flower was thedirector and again, it was a
wonderful experience.
Learned a lot there aboutclinical audiology as well as
distensing.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (09:02):
Sure.
And where'd you go after that,Dave, after UCSF?
Dr. David Majit (09:05):
After that I found that I was really more
interested in the business partof audiology and I was
approached by a couple of peoplewho were starting a new
business Right and Knox Brooks,who you may have heard of.
I remember Knox dearly.
What a wonderful guy yeah, areally bright guy ahead of his
time as far as being a hearingaid dispenser, and a fellow
(09:28):
named Richard Scott Sure.
So I joined them and moved toSouthern California, which made
my wife very happy, since it'smuch warmer weather.
Oh yeah, and we started thatbusiness back in 1977.
And then the rest is history,and that's where we actually.
We had met Gary in 1978 at anASHA convention, and Gary was
(09:54):
there to look to purchase someequipment for his clinics in
Saskatoon, and I think he wasalso considering moving to
Saskatoon at that time.
I think he had enough of thecold weather.
And we interviewed him and weoffered him a position.
And, gary, why don't youexplain what determining factor
made you decide to join us?
Dr. Gary Dorf (10:15):
So the short story is and David had every
fact correct what he justindicated in late 78.
Correct what he just indicatedin late 78,.
I was asked by the Saskatoongovernment, province of
Saskatchewan, to go down toAshen and buy some audiologic
equipment.
I went down there.
I ran into a very dear friendof mine from New York, ron
(10:40):
Meltzner, who at that point wasworking for Widex Hearing Aid
Company and later became thepresident of Widex USA and Hal
Henn.
And Hal Henn, and he introducedme to David and Dick because he
knew they were working the Widexproduct number one as a
consulting firm and they werealso looking for an audiologist.
Now they had just received thecontract with the LA City School
System which at that point hadthe largest deaf and hard of
(11:03):
hearing program in the nation,and they needed somebody to
manage that.
So I gave it some thoughtbecause David was right.
I've been in Saskatoon abouttwo and a half years and I was
looking towards New York.
I never thought Californiawould be an option and anyway
David invited me one night to aparty bus that they had rented
(11:24):
for a lot of their accounts.
I said what the hell?
I really didn't know manypeople.
So it ended up in Chinatown ata restaurant and, you know,
towards the evening I thankedDavid and Richard, who was on
the bus as well, and I said letme give it some thought.
And I didn't have to give itmuch thought because next
morning I looked in the mirrorand said California, here I come
(11:45):
.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (11:46):
Oh, that's great, that's great.
So you worked with you guysworked with a lot of the folks
that I was touching base withback in those days and it was so
much fun to be in theprofession back then because
everybody was about sharingknowledge and supporting each
other and you know it was quitewhat's a good word word.
It was a very exciting youngprofession.
I mean, the profession's beenaround since the end of world
(12:06):
war ii.
And david you were talkingabout, sir, and that was mark
ross, was there back in thosedays and mark was another lovely
guy just you know give you theshirt off his back and so well
versed in oral rehabilitationand everything he went through
in the military with his hearingloss.
Just just an amazing situation.
I think you guys were reallythere in the heyday and what a
(12:27):
great ride.
So I have a couple of questionsI want to ask about.
So Gary Mick Jagger called andhe mentioned that he had dinner
with you recently.
Can you talk about that?
Dr. Gary Dorf (12:37):
So obviously I've been covering Hollywood and LA
and Beverly Hills for the last40 years so I have had, as David
has had, several opportunitiesto meet famous people and
actually help fit several famouspeople.
So, without name dropping, mickJagger.
The story about Mick Jagger wasI actually was at dinner with
my lovely wife Debra late onenight in Beverly Hills at a kind
(13:00):
of a sushi hole-in-the-wallrestaurant, and it was about
11.30, 12 o'clock.
The place was pretty jammedbecause it is small and in that
room they have tables that arelike five inches from each other
right, oh yeah, typical sushi.
And there's the only table inthe place left is literally
(13:21):
right next to mine.
I mean this distance away fromme, like as close as I am to you
.
Anyway, I'm facing the door andin walks Mick Jagger and the
only seat is next to me and incomes Mick Jagger and I'm
following him and Debbie'ssitting opposite me.
She doesn't see him at thispoint and finally he gets to be
right over here and he's comingto sit very close to me and I
(13:45):
literally have to get off and weliterally rub shoulders.
He sits down.
You know, I'm like this issurreal.
Everybody in the restaurantobviously takes out their phone
and this and that.
Anyway, he sits down next to meand I have no recollection,
truthfully, of what I said to meand I have no recollection,
(14:07):
truthfully, of what I said, butI did introduce myself and
ultimately, being theprofessional he is, he said well
, it's very nice to meet you andyour lovely wife and I hope you
have a wonderful dinner and theconversation so you guys are
kind of like this it served itserved my purpose.
Dr. David Majit (14:22):
Gary, don't forget or leave out the part
that immediately after that hemoved his table.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (14:27):
Yes, he did .
Oh yeah, See, that was the parthe told me.
Dr. David Majit (14:32):
Gary neglects to include that.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (14:34):
After you spilled his wine, because you
were so close and your hand didhis wine.
Dr. Gary Dorf (14:39):
Sorry, doug, he stayed there about 10 minutes
and if the name Nobu meansanything to anybody in the sushi
world, this was Nobu's firstrestaurant.
And out comes Nobu, standingbehind me, talking to Mick
Jagger and asking if he wouldlike to move his table.
And Mick did flinch an eye andthey found the table that had
(15:02):
just opened up on the other sideof the room.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (15:04):
So, david, I was looking you up, you know,
because we were.
You know, shoot, I think Ifirst started working with you
guys in the mid 80s, somethinglike that.
There was a time when I livedin Seal Beach and you guys had a
clinical and a business officein Seal Beach, california right
outside of the leisure world, Imight add, and you know it was
an amazing situation becausethat was the first office that I
(15:26):
ever saw that I thought, oh,this makes sense, having a
hearing aid office right in theshopping mall there, strip mall
of a retirement home.
That was brilliant and I knowthat office did so well for very
, very long because of the twoof you and David.
What I was going to say is Ifirst read about you, though, in
1985 in the LA Times.
Dr. David Majit (15:53):
That was a very interesting time.
We called it the bubble.
It was made by Innovate and itwas a plastic earpiece that just
fit in the ear with noelectronics that was supposed to
give you a boost from the 2,000to 4,000 hertz range of about
(16:14):
10 to 12 dB, and so it wasdesigned for mild high-frequency
losses, and I can tell you thatarticle propelled us for the
next two years.
I know it was so busy.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (16:26):
It was unbelievable and, honestly, the
guy mentioned you and hementioned CLB, whoever was doing
the interview, and I rememberthat back in those days because
I knew you back then.
I remember that innovate wasquite a big thing for
audiologists and dispensers andfolks who don't know.
It was as david described.
You would take a customimpression and there's no
electronics at all.
It was just a shell and,exactly as david said, it was
(16:49):
supposed to resonate at twothousand to to 4,000 hertz.
Well, male ear canal resonanceis maximal at about 2,700 hertz.
Female canal resonance ismaximal at about 3,100 hertz.
So you know they had thislittle pocket that they were
doing and I think some peoplegot really good results.
I mean, they were the darnthing.
Dr. David Majit (17:07):
Yeah, and that was a very popular device.
It was reasonably inexpensivefor the patient and again people
were coming in with severe toprofound losses begging to try
this product.
So it was an interesting time.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (17:24):
And now they're off the market for a
long time.
So, gary, more interesting thanaudiology, I think, is probably
being a taxi driver in New Yorkand, if I recall, your dad had
a medallion, right?
Dr. Gary Dorf (17:34):
Wow, very good, doug.
Yes, my dad bought a medallion.
He had, his two older brothershad provided him some funding
and he bought a medallion.
Yeah, in 19.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (17:44):
Tell us what a medallion is, because I
don't think people in 2025.
Dr. Gary Dorf (17:48):
Okay.
Well, my dad struggled to findhis place and his workplace and
he wound up driving a cab a taxicab in New York, and in order
to be your own boss, basicallydriving rather than working for
a fleet of taxi cabs which waspretty prominent in New York at
that time you would pay the citya fee for a medallion, and the
(18:09):
medallion oddly enough, believeit or not, I have one behind me.
It's not visual here here, butit's up okay, because I I bought
one at a swap meet a couple ofyears ago.
It's just the tag thatindicates that you own this cab
and you are self-employed.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (18:25):
Basically, and, yes, medallions though.
Yeah, I mean, they could go fora quarter million bucks.
Dr. Gary Dorf (18:30):
So my dad, yes, bought it for $16,000 at
probably mid-60s and it was hisself-employment.
He worked, you know, six days aweek, eight hours a day, 10
hours a day, and then he sold itfor $78,000, for like about
$47,000.
So it appreciated prettyquickly.
But you know, medallions kindof did get up to almost a
(18:54):
million dollars until Uber hit.
And if you hear Mark Cuban talk, he said the investment he
didn't make, which was the worstchoice, was an Uber, because he
felt that the taxi industrywould never allow Uber in the
big cities and that was hisreason for not investing.
And look what happened to thetaxi drivers.
(19:14):
They're kind of a, you knowthey're still there.
But boy, medallions are down toalmost nothing at this point.
But do you?
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (19:21):
even need a medallion anymore to drive in
New York for a taxi.
Dr. Gary Dorf (19:24):
Yeah, yeah, the medallion is still a viable
option to be self-employed.
But you know there's a lot ofgraft in that.
We found out afterwards.
So yeah, it's certainly not the1960 medallion that my dad had.
Thanks for asking.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (19:39):
Doug, oh, absolutely.
And David, did I hear somethingthat you lectured in Japan, or
did I get that wrong?
Dr. David Majit (19:44):
Actually you did hear that.
I'm not sure who you heard itfrom.
I won't say it was a maliciousrumor, but I did go to Japan for
Widex, because what was goingon in Japan back in the late 90s
and early 2000s was that theywere still fitting monorail
people 90% of the time, ormonorail hearing aids 90% of the
(20:07):
time, I should say and theydidn't really have a good grasp
of the hearing aid industry.
There is no audiology in Japan.
If people wanted an audiologydegree they would go to
Australia to attend universitythere and there were very few
audiologists.
And so the people in Japan,especially the Widex people who
(20:31):
we were working with, thoughtwhat was going on in the US was
really cutting edge.
So I would go over there andgive some talks to the people at
Widex, japan and so forth, andthen one time they invited both
Gary and I to do a tour withthem, which was quite
interesting.
I think we did four differentlectures throughout Japan in the
(20:53):
different large cities, and,unlike seminars that we'd have
here we might get 20 or 30people, we had hundreds of
people attend these meetings andthey'd all be wearing
headphones to translate what wewere saying.
And what was fun was when theywould start the meeting.
They would kind of, you know,go through the agenda and then
(21:15):
they would introduce Gary and Ito the music born in the USA by
Bruce Springsteen, and it wasreally a big deal.
As you know, the Japanesepersonality is such they're
quite shy in front of largegroups.
So one would say are there anyquestions?
Maybe we'd get one or twoquestions from the audience, but
then afterwards one would go toare there any questions?
(21:35):
Maybe we'd get one or twoquestions from the audience, but
then afterwards one would go tothe buffet.
There would be lines of peoplewaiting to ask us questions, and
it was just a fantasticexperience.
Dr. Gary Dorf (21:47):
Gary, would you like to expand on that a little
bit?
No, it was really specialbecause one of the things I
don't think David had alluded to, one of the reasons Sato-san,
who was the president of WidexJapan at that point really a
nice guy.
He invited us over because theproviders there really fit about
90% monorally.
They wanted us to teach themhow to fit binaurally because
(22:11):
the doctors were in charge butthey were afraid to usurp what
the doctors had recommended tothem.
So we did a stage where Davidand I role played to these
hundreds and hundreds of people.
I remember the Tokyo session wasin a disco hall, you know it
wasn't with the disco ballhanging above us.
(22:32):
It love it.
It was kind of surreal.
And then we got up on stage andI forgot that there's an
interpreter standing right nextto me and I'm starting to talk
to David and then somebody tapsme on the shoulder and said slow
down, slow down.
So we had a blast and Santo-sancouldn't be more.
I mean, he was really, reallygenerous of his time.
We had a great time.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (22:54):
It was a lot of fun, All right.
Well, listen, I'm so honoredyou guys spent some time here
tonight.
Tell me you've been, I want tosay, 48, 49 years an audiologist
and what are your reflectionson that and your advice for
young audiologists?
Dr. David Majit (23:05):
Well, thank you , doug, for the question.
I think it's a very interestingfield.
I think it's so varied field.
I think it's so varied.
There's so many aspects ofaudiology that one can get into,
aside from doing dispensing.
There's the diagnostics andthere's the balance and there's
the rehab and so on and so forth.
So there's really and likeyourself, where you got involved
(23:28):
in surgery and so forth socochlear implants.
So there's a lot of differentaspects of audiology, and so I
think it's very interesting.
I think you're doing a greatservice by really helping people
who really need may not want itinitially, but really need the
assistance.
So the field has been very goodto carry on.
(23:49):
I have to say that we've beenvery fortunate.
I think it's still a field thatone can thrive in if they're
motivated and ambitious, and soI would certainly recommend for
those people who are interestedin helping people, something
that you can do, where you'rereally spending the time really
(24:10):
improving yourself and improvinglives for other people.
So I would certainly encouragepeople to consider audiology as
a profession.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (24:19):
And, oddly enough, apparently you
considered that when yourecommended to your son, andrew,
that he should become anaudiologist, right?
So, yeah, yeah, give us 30seconds on Andrew.
Andrew Maggi, one of myfavorite, one of the funniest
people in all of audiology.
I love listening to him lecture.
And, gary, let's look at youfor a few seconds before we let
(24:39):
you roll and tell me yourreflections.
You're at this a while as well.
Tell me about your thoughts onthe profession and what do you
think about the future ofaudiology.
Dr. Gary Dorf (24:48):
Well, you know, getting into the profession at
the beginning, you know younever sit.
You know, getting into theprofession at the beginning, you
know you never sit.
I'm now 49 years in, so youknow who thought.
You know, number one, theprofession would provide me such
joy.
You know, I never felt it waswork.
I enjoyed every part of everybit of audiology that I touched
(25:09):
and that goes from.
You know, the time in Canadadispensing working for kids in
school for the deaf.
You know, running our ownbusiness, whether it's the
retail business or theconsulting business, I mean the
run we've had has been justamazing.
I do want to shout out to a fewpeople that we have had by our
side for many years.
(25:29):
Donna Brzozowski, who manypeople might know, and Terry
Canfield really helped supportboth of our businesses and
without them and the otherpeople who they all know who
they are, who worked for us,they were instrumental in the
fun we had.
But also how well thebusinesses did.
You know, for me, going backinto the clinic and seeing
patients kind of going fullcircle, and seeing patients kind
(25:55):
of going full circle, I can'teven begin to think of how many
people we have helped over thesepast 40, 50 years both David I
and you in terms of making theirlives better and look for a job
.
If anybody's looking for aposition or a career, audiology
is really, really a terrificopportunity and option because
you're dealing with technology.
(26:16):
You're dealing with the growthof an industry.
You're dealing with the growthof technology, but you're also
helping people and for me, goingback into the clinic and ending
my career at some point seeingpatients I can't imagine a
richer opportunity for thosepeople who are looking to make
their way in the world.
Dr. Douglas L. Beck (26:35):
I couldn't be happier.
Well, you know we could go onand on for hours, but I wanted
to give you guys the chance tobe on Hearing Matters podcast.
I think you're both giants inthe profession and the industry.
And I think that you know,although there are, admittedly,
thousands, of thousands ofpeople who know you most of them
, oddly enough, know you asprofessionals they don't know
(26:56):
you as individuals and the stuffyou've been through and
accomplished.
So I'm glad that we had theopportunity to address some of
that.
I love you guys, I'm so proudof you both and I will look
forward to the next time we gettogether.
Dr. David Majit (27:07):
Well, thank you , Doug, and just another quick
word.
We want to congratulate you onall the many, many contributions
you've made to the professionand to all the audiologists out
there.
Thank you so much.
You guys have a great evening.
Take care.
Thanks again, Doug.
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