Living Love: The Art and Activism of Kathe Izzo

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In this episode of Heart Light Sessions, Jenee sits down with Kathe Izzo, widely known as "The Love Artist," to explore her remarkable journey as an artist, subtle activist, and mentor. Kathe shares how she weaves love, subtle activism, and art into a powerful framework for navigating the challenges of late-stage capitalism, empire, and resistance. Her evolving spiritual practice—shaped by the ongoing occupation and genocide in Gaza—emphasizes the urgency of finding purpose and tenderness amidst global turmoil.

This heartfelt conversation also delves into Jenee and Kathe's shared experiences within the Kundalini yoga community, particularly their time at Ra Ma L.A. with Guru Jagat. Reflecting on the recent HBO documentary Breath of Fire, they examine the complexities of spiritual leadership, cult-like dynamics, and personal growth. With vulnerability and insight, Kathe underscores the importance of stepping away from large-scale consumerism and embracing responsibility for creating planetary equity. Through the lens of activism rooted in love and tenderness, this episode encourages listeners to reflect on their roles in building a more compassionate world.

About Kathe:
Kathe Izzo (she/they) is a conceptual poet, guide & matriarch, raising her daughters & grandaughters on the Outer Cape for the past 35 years. Izzo is the creatrix of many global social engagement communities, including The True Love Project, The Aliveness & The MA Platform: a chain of continuous femme prayer circling the globe with love.

FIND KATHE:
Instagram
My Brainiac Amor (Substack)

OTHER LINKS:
Join the Heart Light Sessions e-mail list
Learn more about Jenee Halstead
Follow Jenee on Instagram @jeneehalstead @heartlightsessions
Buy me a coffee
Check out Jenee's music

CREDITS:
Introduction script:  Jessica Tardy
Introduction mix and master:  Ed Arnold
Theme Song: "Heart Light" by Jenee Halstead and Dave Brophy

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Heart Light Media, LLC - Disclaimer

This podcast is presented solely for entertainment and education purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional. We shall in no event be held liable to any party for any reason arising directly or indirectly for the use or interpretation of the information presented in this audio. Copyright 2024, Heart Light Media, LLC - All rights reserved.

Episode Transcript

Jenee (00:06):
Welcome to the Heartlight Sessions, a podcast about
lightworking your way throughdark times.
I'm Jenee Halstead.
I'm a singer-songwriter,holistic vocal coach, intuitive
guide and plant medicinefacilitator.
I'm also a survivor ofchildhood abuse, autoimmune
issues and my 30s.
I'm on a lifelong healingjourney and autoimmune issues
and my 30s.
I'm on a lifelong healingjourney and, along the way, I

(00:28):
want to share the ideas andteachings that rock my world.
Every week on Heart LightSessions, I call in artists,
healers and thinkers to explorewhat's helped them live and
thrive from a heart-centeredplace, because the heart, it's
where the best things happen.

(00:49):
If you've ever wondered how tounlock your biggest
breakthroughs or how to comeback from that stuff that tried
to kill you you know the stuffI'm talking about, the stuff
that's supposed to make youstronger.
Or if you've ever wondered howto just do you straight from the
heart, you're in the rightplace.
So join me, won't you?
Let's turn on that heart light.
We're rolling.

(01:18):
Oh, I'm so, so excited for thisguest.
Have kathy iso with me.
Um, how to encapsulate?
Uh, your, your, you is is veryit's going to be hard, but I
will try.
So you have, you are the loveartist, aka the love artist.

(01:41):
Yeah, um, you have a substackcalled my brainiac, amor, amor.

Kathee (01:48):
Amor, amor, like love.

Jenee (01:53):
A-M-O-R.
A subtle activist.
You're a subtle activist, anactivist of love.
I really think.
And I'll just say like quicklythat Hathi's been one of my
mentors.
You were really the firstperson to teach me about things
that, like I had no clue aboutthe Ma frequency.

(02:18):
You were the first person toteach me about the phases of the
moon and how they sync with ourcycles and really opened me up
to that.
Your love elixir was kind ofthe first I'd never taken
anything like that in my lifeand it really kind of opened me
up into my subtle nervous systemof like love and rose and like

(02:41):
all these beautiful things, andthe enchantress, which I'd never
heard anybody talk about, theenchantress.
And when I met you, that wasreally the phase that I was in
because I actually had beengoing through menopause, but I
was very young.

Kathee (02:58):
Oh really Wow yeah.

Jenee (02:59):
So to have that like archetype, because I was very in
, like oh, I'm going into theCrohn's phase, like at 40, you
know, and to have you as like anexample and a mentor for me,
just like, yeah, really openedme up.
To like, oh, and you were thefirst person that I ever heard

(03:20):
talk about your beauty.
So just admitting your beautyand talking about your
relationship to your beauty, oh,it's like so many things so we
can jump off from there.

Kathee (03:37):
I mean I can talk about all those things and it's so
funny like hearing you say thosethings.
I'm like, wow, like I have somuch work still to do, not just
because I have so many things toteach.
I mean, I've been, you know,it's interesting, but I think
it's part of the enchantress, somaybe I'll talk about that
first.
But is you know, I've been,I've been really moderating how

(04:01):
much I do.
I'm a very ambitious person.
I love to work.
I have I'm very, very creative,but I am a projector.
We don't have to get into, youknow, human design too much, and
actually I'm not.
I do a lot of things.
I am an astrologer, but I'm not, you know.
I know some.
I know enough human design tolook at my own chart.

(04:23):
But I am a projector andprojectors you know those of you
.
There are probably plenty ofprojectors listening to this and
you know we need to be invited.
And and the problem withprojectors is that they're such
visionaries, they can see somuch, they can see such a vast
like kind of landscape that alot of people can't see.

(04:44):
So it's hard for them to waitto be invited because they feel
like people are not seeing whatthey see and so, yeah, so so for
me, you know, I I have alwaysinitiated projects my whole life
and, and you know, it's beenokay.
But you know, I just have hadpeople, human design.

(05:04):
People always say you need torest more, you need to receive
more, and I'm really, reallyembracing that now, and so you
know, I'm not getting as muchdone but I'm much happier.
So I, you know, would love tobe teaching more about the
Enchantress and the Lunar andthe Hav in the past, but I feel
like I'm very slow right now.
The Enchantress and the Lunarand have in the past, but I feel

(05:24):
like I'm very slow right now, Iguess, just for the people in
the audience.
So the Enchantress is notsomething that I thought up on
my own.
You know, everybody's familiarwith the maiden mother crone way
of looking at life and alsolooking at the lunar cycle,
looking at the seasons, you knowall these things that are based
on the lunar phases and I wasdoing, um, all these things that

(05:49):
are based on the lunar phasesand I was doing, uh, it was on
some weird technology thatdoesn't even exist anymore, but
it was kind of like podcastvideo and um, and I interviewed.
It was called the I don't knowif I can remember, but the the
hag.
So hag means the edge, it meanslike the hedge, so it means the
edge between the domestic andthe wild.

(06:09):
That's what hag means, which isreally interesting.
So that's why I always use theword hag.

Jenee (06:14):
I love that Because.

Kathee (06:15):
I think it's beautiful, right.
So this wildness that isbecoming an elder, it's, like
you know, returning to thiswildness of nature, kind of
outside of, you know, thedomestic realm.
So so it was something like thefierce reality of the hag or
something like that, and I wasinterviewing.
At the time I was in my early50s and I was interviewing

(06:37):
people you know 65 plus women,and it was really good.
I interviewed some famouspeople.
I interviewed you know somepeople, just that I knew that I
thought were inspiring.
And in one of the showssomebody texted me.
There was, like you know, it wasa lot like zoom, but it was
just more for, you know, castingor whatever it was before zoom

(06:58):
anyway, and somebody wrote inthe comments well, what about
the enchantress?
And I was, you know, trying tointerview but I was kind of
dialoguing and they were likewell, it is part of the Celtic
tradition and I had to lookreally deep to find it, but it
is out there, but it's hardlybeing used.
And of course we're going totalk about Guru Jagat later, but
Guru Jagat is like you need totrademark that.

(07:19):
You need to like no one's doingit and, of course, I do it a
little bit here and there.
I just embody it.
But I have, you know, workedwith so many people individually
around this idea.
So it's this idea that betweenthe mother and the hag there is
this other realm called theenchantress.
And it's interesting becauseit's not like it's not, it

(07:40):
doesn't have like their fourquarters or anything like that,
because everybody's differentright.
So, everybody goes throughpuberty at different times.
Everybody becomes, enters themother phase at different times.
I went through menopause at 39.

Jenee (07:54):
Yeah, that was also something.
Oh, did I tell you yeah thathelped me a lot, like because I
was going through when I when Imet you and and, and having your
kind of mentorship hearing youtalk about that was something
that was really important for me.

Kathee (08:14):
Yeah, well, you know, one thing that I do really love
about myself is that, um, I'vebeen saying lately, with
everything that's going on, I'mlike this eternal optimist and I
say that in a joking way, Idon't know if it's necessarily
I'm an optimist, but I'm alwayslike, oh, okay, this is what
we're doing now.
Okay, you know, like I justlike roll with it.
So, you know, when I, when Ifound I was going through men

(08:37):
like post-menopausal, um, Ithought I had a cyst or
something.
I stopped getting my period andI was was just like, okay, okay
, this is what's happening.
I mean, I never really, I meanI think I might've had a tear or
two when she first told me,only because I, you know, I have
three kids, so it was like Ineed to have more kids.
But, you know, it was just likeunexpected.

(08:58):
But I just kind of rolled withit and, um, I didn't really make
a big deal about it.
You know, it wasn't until I gotolder, and then people started
talking to me about menopauseand I'm like, well, you know,
and I did like little thingsanyway, I'll get into that more.
But so, yeah, so this timing,so the enchantress what the
enchantress is is.
It's the most powerful time, soit's not necessarily

(09:19):
post-menopause, but it's kind oflike the ending of the mother
cycle.
So it's an overlap between themother and the hag.
So it goes from late, latemotherhood, and it doesn't have
to be just about women that havechildren.
It's just from this productivekind of.
You know, you go from childhoodand then you're in the world
and you're you're creatingthings and making things, and

(09:39):
then at the end of the motherand you're still making things.
But it's also like maybe you'releaning back some and maybe you
know you're taking more timefor yourself and you're less
obligated to the world.
Yes, and that's the time, butyet, at the same time, that's
time when a lot of, you know,queens in history were, because
they didn't have any, weren'thaving any more children yeah

(10:00):
and also it was like this sexualprime, like there were these
queens and they could dowhatever they wanted and they
could have lovers because theyweren't going to get pregnant.

Jenee (10:08):
And like their partners.

Kathee (10:09):
if they had them had to just let them do whatever they
wanted.
So it's a great, great thing,and I think these days it's
really necessary, because womenare, you know, just staying.
I mean, I think older women arereally beautiful too, but women
are kind of staying morevibrant and juicy past menopause

(10:30):
.
Yeah, there's lots of tools andteachings that weren't around
for women before.
So, yeah, so that's basically,you know, the idea behind the
enchantress, and then when Iteach it, it's really mostly
like most of my classes.
It's really setting the tablefor people to really share their
experiences.
I think that's my forte is liketo invite and draw the stories

(10:53):
out of people and then thestories kind of evolve and then,
like that, I kind of teach fromthere, from people's individual
experiences individualexperiences.

Jenee (11:09):
Yeah, I love, you're really working in the, you know,
container of archetypes and anduh, you just you don't meet
very many people who are doingthat.
You know, especially like inthe entrepreneurial realm or the
mentorship realm, and there'sjust a layer of like um, almost
extra protection there orsomething.
It's very beautiful.
You know it kind of like you'redoing the work because you're

(11:32):
also an astrologer, but you'reworking with all of these like
subtle bodies and you know, inthe field and um I don't know if
you want to speak a little bitto that in in how you sort of
became the love artist and youractivism, do you?

Kathee (11:49):
do you not know the story of how you?

Jenee (11:50):
became the love artist.
No, oh my.

Kathee (11:52):
God, it's such a good story.
I mean, this is a whole, wholepodcast in and of itself.
So I have had so many lives.
I feel like I'm in like thelike.
So my first you know I am amother, I have three children,
but I was an artist and I stillam.
But you know, I was very active,very ambitious, went to art

(12:13):
school, study film andmultimedia art and and I was
very, very interested inconceptual art and in the kind
of art that was like in theworld, like an artist would
actually touch you or the artwould take place out on the
street and then it might bedocumented.
And you know some famousartists in that world.

(12:36):
Female artists is Linda Montano, who's a friend and inspiration
to me, and Marina Abramovich,who I've met.
We have so many.
I wouldn't consider her afriend, but we have a lot of
parallels and we've been in thesame place at the same time for
many things.
So these are people, you know,with much bigger platforms than
me in that world, but I was inthat world and I was really, you

(12:59):
know, doing a lot of things,like in the studio and and like
being naked and peopleinteracting.
You know it was a whole era ofthat which I'm talking about,
kind of like the late nineties,um, across that, that, that uh
turn of the century, and then,um so uh, I was invited to be in
a show and I was asked to.

(13:19):
It was like, um, an undergroundversion of the Whitney biennial
, which is where all the bigupcoming artists are.
Yes, and of course there's alot of people who have issues
with that art world and you knownow we talk about it as empire,
and culture is colonialism andall that stuff.
There are people who are not inthat scene, who wanted to do

(13:41):
their own biennial, who wantedto do their own biennial.
An artist named Sal Randolphstarted this.
What was it called?
I'm so sorry, I'll remember it,we can put it in the notes, but
anyway.
But it was this anti-biennial,it had a name Anyway, and so it

(14:01):
was all.
It was early because it waslike, you know, like 2000, I
think, and so it was all on thecomputer, which was kind of cool
at that time, and it was.
It had to be on the street orin the world, everything was
listed and there was ways youcan engage with the artists and
it had to be free.
And so I was just like I can'tdo this, I'm really tired, I'm
moving.
And then she said, well, justdo something you do all the time

(14:22):
anyway, and just call it art,you don't even have to do
anything.
And I thought, oh well, I fallin love with people and people
fall in love with me.

Jenee (14:29):
I'm just that kind of person.

Kathee (14:31):
So I set it up that people could sign up to have a
love appointment with me, and atthat time I didn't interact
with people at all.
I didn't call them, I didn'temail them, I didn't meet with
them, and I did it for a monthand there was somebody signed up
for every day and I justthought of them when I was like,
I did a little interview withthem, but then I thought of them
.
You know, I was out with my dogand, you know, with my kids or

(14:53):
and um, and then after thatmonth was over, I was just like
I'm going to do this forever.
And I just kept doing it anddoing it and then I then I was
emailing and I was calling andthen eventually I was meeting
people and then it really tookoff and I was having
installations in museums andgalleries and department stores
and train stations and I wouldmake these little forts and have

(15:14):
these love appointmentsliterally for 10 years.
So, yeah, so this is way beforewe ever met, yeah, before we
ever met.
And then I went from there intothe plant spirit world because
I was so disillusioned with.
I mean, I was getting some playbut they all needed something to
sell.
And now I think I could haveeasily made beautiful

(15:37):
documentation to sell.
But at the time I was such arebel, I was just like I'm
working so hard, and then I alsowas a single mom, so I wasn't
making any money and I started,kind of stumbled into an
ayahuasca ceremony and I'm notgoing to go into that whole
story.
But I realized with a boyfriendand you know he kind of

(15:58):
kidnapped me.
I didn't even know what wasgoing to happen there.
I had to stay there all night oranything.
But I had this huge epiphanythat first night that this was
like I was face to face with God, I was face to face with love.
I didn't need to be in the artworld anymore and I shifted into
.
I just dove head over heelswith two of my daughters into

(16:20):
that world and just promotedpeople and kind of managed
people traveling and also, um, Istarted doing a lot of
integration work for people inthe ceremonies, which was like
the love appointments but betteryou know.

Jenee (16:36):
And so yeah.

Kathee (16:37):
So you know, and then like sort of Kundalini came in
around that time too.
So with the Kundalini and plantspirit part of my life and you
know I was still having loveappointments but I was charging
for them I was able to supportmyself.
And you know my friends that Iwas friends with at that time in
our world they're still makingart and they're still kind of.

(16:57):
You know, I could have beenthere like doing great but at
the level I was and like I thinkif I had spent all this past
bunch of time just promotingmyself in that world, I would be
a different person than I amnow Totally.

Jenee (17:10):
And I like where I am now .
Yeah.

Kathee (17:12):
So thank you for letting me give you that update.
I don't tell that story thatoften, but I think people think
I just called myself the loveartist.
I never called myself that.

Jenee (17:22):
Okay.

Kathee (17:22):
But I made business cards that said Kathy Izzo and
underneath I just wrote loveartist Got it, I used them and
then people start just this isbefore, like even big social
media, people just were like youknow, kathy Izzo, the love
artist, and like just one thingled to another.

Jenee (17:39):
I love this because it speaks to the ease that purpose
can have.
You know like I feel like whenwe're entrepreneurs, or when
we're like, you know, soulcreators or something, or
artists or creatives.
We were like I got to figure itout and I got to do it and I
got to work so hard and like,for me, what's been coming up

(18:01):
from Spirit is just like I loveto sing more than anything and
it's the most free and easything for me.
And Spirit just keeps sayingjust sing, just sing, just sing,
and let it unfold for you, letit just like just how you just
described.

Kathee (18:19):
Yeah, you know Exactly.

Jenee (18:21):
I love that.
So you're in Manhattan, in likethe kind of an amazing time.
Yeah.

Kathee (18:29):
At that time?
Yeah, for how long?
Uh well, I was born in Brooklynand then I lived between the
city and the suburbs, you know,until I was in high school,
through high school.
So I was either I always hadfamily in the city, and when we
lived in the suburbs we werelike my father worked in the
city, we were like less than ahalf hour outside the city.
So I was, either I always hadfamily in the city, and when we
lived in the suburbs we werelike my father worked in the
city, we were like less than ahalf hour outside the city.
So I was in that, in the city,all the time.

(18:51):
Um, and then I went to school inBoston, but then I came back to
New York for a while and um, so, and then I, you know, raised
my kids in Provincetown for 10years and then came back to the
city again.
So I would say, you know,probably maybe two thirds of my
life so far have been in NewYork.
But you know, with what you'resaying now and I don't know if

(19:14):
I'm jumping ahead, but you knowI'm living in Truro right now,
which is near.
Provincetown and I was justbuying my sandwich at the local
store and this older lesbianthat works behind the counter
and she and I always gossip andI we were just talking about how
, like, not only do we not needNew York, we don't even need
Provincetown anymore like wejust live in Truro, which is

(19:36):
kind of rural, even though it'slike five minutes away.
it was really cute.
But, um, yeah, no, it'sinteresting.
Like right now I'm sort ofdoing the same thing and things
are going really great.
I'm surfing, I'm making memes,I'm writing poetry, I am doing
one-to-one appointments, youknow, like session work with
people, which I love, and myclients right now are all, like

(19:59):
you know, decolonizing anddivesting.
I'm like doing a lot of counselabout that, which I love, and
still a lot of people with themedicine, so, and still a lot of
like moms and counseling aboutparenting.
So all the things I love.
And yeah, it's just like, yeah,it's the same thing, like I
feel so relieved to be just, youknow, like going to bed early

(20:25):
which I love so much when.
I get in my bed like it allfeels so easy and I'm not, I
want to say because of you know,I don't know when this is going
to come out.
I'm not like, like, even in myconversation when I was getting
my sandwich, we were talkingabout you know sort of the state
of the world and how lucky wewere to live in Massachusetts,

(20:48):
how lucky we were to live in aplace that has very strong
community, where people reallytalk to each other you know face
to face, yes, to be in a placethat has always had relatively
liberal politics, with lots ofsocial services, a state you
know.
So I'm not like saying like, oh,everything's happy.
But I have to say a big part isexactly what you're talking
about and that, like, I am notdoing to to the best of my

(21:13):
ability, I'm not doing anythingI don't want to do, and for
years, even in the art makingyou know it's a thing it's like
you spend like 90% of the timestrategizing how to get people
to see or walk.
Oh, I was just like you're kindof chasing, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Jenee (21:31):
I'd love to talk about your memes and your platform
right now, and it's reallyhelped me because when, when the
war started in Israel and um,uh, things started to unfold, um
, you're seeing these, like youknow, you're seeing what's

(21:52):
happening and you're just like Imean I I'd be up at three
o'clock in the morning likestaring at the ceiling, like
just replaying things that I'dseen in my mind and like I mean
I just you know, there's nowords.
Yeah, and just seeing like yourform of I was thinking about

(22:17):
you last night.
I was in medicine ceremony, Iwas in mushroom ceremony and you
, you came into the ceremony andit was kind of like I was
seeing sort of your visuals onyour Instagram page and about
like, everything is abouttenderness and about love, and
so it's this dichotomy of likeholding the horror of the world

(22:39):
with the most delicate you knowlove.

Kathee (22:45):
Well, I mean, there's so many things I can say about
that.
The first thing I'm going tosay and I say this with total
love, because I know it's notintentional, but it's just like
the war in Israel, the war wasin Gaza, and it's not a war,
it's not occupation, exactly.

Jenee (22:58):
And I I know people that just call all of the Israel
occupied Palestine.

Kathee (23:02):
So thank you.
So I just want to say that no,it's OK, but I think people you
know don't realize.
I mean I always say when COVIDhappened and people that have
long COVID are like you mean theCOVID lockdown.

Jenee (23:15):
Because you know what I mean.

Kathee (23:16):
Like COVID is still happening.
Yes, so I just think I always,you know, have to remind myself.
So I just say that for you andfor everybody.
I think that sometimes I worrythat you know there's a whole
world, so being making memes, Iwasn't part of that world.

(23:37):
It's just like amazing.
It's like this thing of likeyou follow your bliss.
I didn't even know how peoplecould make a meme, like I call
them meme poems, but like a memespread.
It seemed like so much work andlike how do people put these up
every day?
Some people put them up acouple of times a day and now I
cannot stop myself from makingthem.
I could probably put up five aday.
It's become my spiritualcreative process.

(23:59):
It feeds me so much and it'sjust like I'm just in it.
It's like a river, it's justlike you know.
I and a lot of people are likedid you see my post, my post, my
post, and I'm like I am so deepin my own river that I don't
really see a lot of other things.
But the thing is like I so youknow, there are these
collaborations between politicalmeme people that I really

(24:21):
respect and I don't get invitedoften and I think it's because
of my approach.
I think is very personal to meand also they have like a little
bit harsher approach.
But I totally love their memesand I get it.
But it's like the way I do thememes it's hard to mesh with
other people you know, and Itake you know that's a good

(24:43):
thing for me, but I alsosometimes wish I could do it
more.
Every once in a while I'll getinvited to collaborate, but I
think it's just the way I am.
I mean, I hate to be negative,but I really don't think it just
kills me to say this literally,but I don't think we're going
to turn this war machine aroundanytime soon.

(25:04):
Unfortunately, if we were, itwould have happened.
It would have happened beforethe election, it would have
happened a long time ago.
So I think and not to make thisso heavy right now, but it's a
really important part of my workis that I kind of made a vow at
some point that if all thesechildren, women and men were

(25:27):
going to die and they call themmartyrs, which I think is so
beautiful, and their faith is sobeautiful I was going to make
it worth it in that I would notstop holding this line.
And when I say Palestine iseverything, I really mean it
it's homophobia, it's misogyny,it's racism, it's classism, it's
you know, it's elitism, it'sit's you know, it's it's slavery

(25:53):
, it's abolition, it's you know,it's the whole thing, and so
you know.
So that was the, that was thekind of commitment I made, so
that I posted almost every daysince October 7th there's a few
days I didn't and and I alsomade a vow to, to, to do some
like deep, like you know, alJazeera, or some like really you

(26:16):
know, present art I mean a newssource and like really look,
and.
And there were times where Icouldn't and I had to take a
break and I felt bad about that,but sometimes I had to fill my
cup at so, yeah, so that's whatI feel like so with.
So that go to my memes.
You never asked me a simplequestion.
I'm a I'm a man.

(26:37):
No, no, no, I love it but I'mlike I'll talk forever, Um, but
anyway, you know, I make it just, I just go by my instinct.
But I feel like it's veryinviting for people to think
about Palestine, yes, and forpeople to think about how it
affects their life and to thinkabout what kind of daily things

(26:59):
they can do which may seem likeit has nothing to do with
Palestine.
That will kind of continue.
You know I'm big on like everydecision that you make has a
replica, either supports empireor starts to dismantle it, even
at tiny, tiny levels.
And so, you know, every once ina while I'll get way off and

(27:21):
very, you know, symbolic andabstract, and I won't have had a
picture of a Palestinian childor any kind of hardcore
discourse and I kind of bring itback in.
But sometimes, you know, I justgo into those that poetry,
because a lot of it is just likemy personal process and people
relate to that in their personalprocess and I think, a lot of

(27:42):
times, you know, even now I'mleading this sadhana, this 40
day sadhana.
It's called the sadhana ofpossibility and we started
before the election and a lot ofthe discussion in that group.
So it's a 40 day prayerpractice every morning at seven
in the morning, east coast time,and um.
A lot of the discussion in thegroup is about forgiving

(28:06):
themselves and, like you, feelguilty and then you shut down
yes, Like so.
That doesn't help.
That's part of what gets you.

Jenee (28:17):
So that's a big part.
Yeah, that's a big part, Ithink.
That's what gets you, you know,I think it's also part of the
war, of the war machine and thecolonizing um is that you.
You're so shut down with yourown guilt and shame, you know.
So that's that's that's.

Kathee (28:35):
That's a manipulative tool.
Exactly, that's the thing,exactly the hopelessness, the
inner persecution, that's howthey get you.
They make you powerless.
Exactly where I live, becauseit's beautiful here but it's not

(28:57):
, you know, it's just it's likebeautiful summer houses and it
can be very bougie and very muchpart of the capitalist system.
Lots of movie star not moviestars, but people in in the
entertainment industry that havesome you know cause it's a gay
resort and but anyway, yeah no,I run into people on the street
in Provincetown.
They're like oh my God, I'm soglad you're still posting about
Palestine, like you're the,you're the only one that's still

(29:18):
posting, and I'm like that isnot true.
Your algorithm is really screwedup, but I'm also like well
thank you.
I'm glad that you're you'regetting my vibration, but I was
like, wow, this was months agothat someone said that to me.
You're the only one stillposting about the house.
And I'm like, yeah, well, maybeyou need to look a little
harder.

Jenee (29:39):
What is one thing that someone listening could do to
start to unravel empire ininternally?

Kathee (29:53):
Well, one thing I'm going to say, an external thing
that somebody posted today.
I just want to say it because II didn't really think of it.
I get so many requests to sendpeople money and uh, in gaza and
somebody said, you know, youdon't have to send them money if
you just write them back likethey're just living for that,
like you're online, they have aphone, like, actually, because
there's lots of requests, and alot of times you're like, oh, my

(30:15):
god, you're overwhelmed.
So I just want to put that outthere because I never thought of
that, that to write somebodyback, yeah, say I can't, but I
care, you know, yeah, um, but uh, anyway, no, the the inner work
is, uh, you know, on the mostsimple level, is looking at what
you spend money on and lookinghow you make money.

(30:36):
And you know, even I moved mybank account last year, one of
the global strike weeks, to alocal bank that only has three
branches, from Bank of America.
Unfortunately, I still ampaying off a credit card with
them, so I still am connected tothem, but my debit card kind of

(30:58):
checking account and lowlysavings account.
So I did that and I felt reallygood about that.
I think you know it's thinkingabout, you know where you shop,
how you shop, and you know it'sreally it's hard, it's so many
things, and you know it's reallyit's hard, it's so many things.
And I, you know, my kind ofworst thing which I haven't even

(31:27):
looked at yet is like streamingservices, which you can just
see how problematic that is.
So I'm like, well, that's likekind of keeping me together
right now.
So that's like how I take abreak and you know, maybe I'll
get to that and figure out thealternative, but at least I'm
thinking about it, like I'm like, oh, like I'm looking at these
things and like, look at this,this is Amazon, this is Disney.
You know, Netflix just wiped outall of their Palestinian
library.
You know, I'm sure they havesome kind of influence.

(31:50):
So you know, as I said, yeah,yeah, you can look it up.
Um, yeah, yeah, you can look itup.
So I haven't canceled myaccounts there, but I am kind of
tracking that.
But I'm like not shopping atWhole Foods that's Amazon, not
buying from Amazon online.
I personally don't have anAmazon account, but my daughter
does, so sometimes I will use itfor, like a video, you know,

(32:15):
just also just thinking about sowith that you can see, that's
comfort, right, so that'scomfort.
So it's like we are so gearedtowards comfort.
That is the American of whatwas behind the election and how

(32:35):
it went that way is that peoplewant to preserve the American
way of life, and the Americanway of life is built on many
people suffering.
Yes, you know how much am Iaddicted to my own comfort Like
that.
I can't even make a phone call.

Jenee (33:05):
Yes, that I can't even, you know just switch my bank.

Kathee (33:07):
Like that was really hard for me to switch my bank.
I mean, I'm still cleaning upsome of the automatic, you know,
because everything goes throughthere.

Jenee (33:11):
So I'm still cleaning up.
Yeah, it's exhausting, it'sexhausting.

Kathee (33:14):
Yeah, every once in a while something bounces and I'm
like you know so it's like it'sa big deal.

Jenee (33:20):
Yeah, it's also interesting because you have to
trail, actually, most companiesnow because unfortunately they
all, almost all of them go backto Black Rock or Vanguard or
State Street and that is thepinnacle of the evil empire.

(33:45):
You know, so it's even likeknowing.
You know your credit union orthose kinds of things.
You know, it's like that'swhat's so difficult is, we're so
enmeshed and so in bed we don'tknow, like every sector is

(34:05):
Right.

Kathee (34:05):
Exactly that's why I think that's what I'm saying is
that if we can't, you know, getan arms embargo today, which
we're not going to today.
It's like you can kind ofuntangle, like I do it even with
celebrities, like I will belike if I'm going to make a meme
and there's a celebrity in it,I just do a search, I'll be like

(34:26):
, you know, rihanna, zionist,israel, palestine, and it just
comes up, you know, like whatthey've said, what they've done.
It's like there's this showtalking about watching TV,
there's this show on HP I meanon Apple that so many people
told me it's like the best showever called disclaimer.
And it's like Sasha Baron Cohenand I will not watch him.

(34:46):
He's an Islamophobe and.
I will not watch him and it'slike.
You know, my kids are like isthat such a big deal?
But I'm like.
I think it is Because you knowlike if you say that's okay,
then you say that's okay.
I mean, I'm sure I watch peoplethat are Zionists or have bad
politics, but I do my best tolike not give people a hall pass

(35:09):
.

Jenee (35:10):
Yeah, you know.

Kathee (35:11):
I mean the celebrity culture.

Jenee (35:12):
Yeah, I mean.

Kathee (35:14):
I'm sure you didn't want this conversation to go this
way, but I mean the wholecelebrity culture, the whole
professional sports culture,like that was so bad for so many
people.
There are so many poor people,it's just like a crazy amount of
money and they get total carteblanche.
But it's like you seem likeyou're kind of a whiner when you

(35:34):
talk about it, but then you seewhat happened, like after the
Met Gala people were just likepeople are done.

Jenee (35:40):
People are done.
You know they're done withcelebrity.
It's like Nope, we're good, Idon't.
You know it doesn't really meanmuch anymore to have a
celebrity endorse you.
You know it's like sorry, likethe world is a dumpster fire
right now.
I know how did you entertain?

Kathee (35:57):
Like sorry, like the world is a dumpster fire right
now.
I know I do want to beentertained, though that's like
my big weakness.

Jenee (36:01):
I know, I know, but as far as like changing the world
and politics and it's just it's,it's really comes down to
relating and it's like what doesthis person have?
Like they can't relate to mylife in any way, shape or form.
You know it's.
Yeah, there are also hugecarbon footprints.

Kathee (36:21):
Yes, like one celebrity.

Jenee (36:23):
Let's go into talking about where do we want to go
from here?
Something a little lighter.

Kathee (36:30):
I think we should go for oh a little lighter.
Go ahead, you're going to go,maybe we should go from this
realm into the Rama story.
Yeah, because I feel likethere's so much of this in that
story Do you feel up for that?

Jenee (36:43):
I do, I do, yeah, for sure.

Kathee (36:46):
I mean, we can keep it kind of fun for a little while.

Jenee (36:51):
It's.
That's a really hard one tokeep fun, but I know.

Kathee (36:54):
But that is how we met.

Jenee (36:56):
I'm just going to turn my light on.

Kathee (36:58):
Well, that is how we met and it was fun for a while
there.

Jenee (37:02):
It was fun.
That's why we stuck aroundRight.
Yeah, it's interesting becauseI I think I spent, you know,
three, maybe two and a half,three years of my life in that
Sengit, in that community, and Iit's funny because I had some
of the greatest times of my lifethere.
But I'm also really realizingthat, like every single minute

(37:26):
of my life was devoted to Rama.

Kathee (37:30):
Yeah, interesting.

Jenee (37:31):
You know, because I was in, so you do you want to set
the?

Kathee (37:35):
does everybody in your audience know what Rama is?

Jenee (37:38):
No, so let's yeah, so you go.

Kathee (37:42):
Okay, well, I mean, but I came into it kind of sideways
because I didn't really know Iwas stuck.
So Rama is a yoga community.
It's an offshoot of Kundalini,as taught by Yogi Bhajan, who
had his an organization called3HO, healthy, happy, holy, yeah.
So, and that's been aroundsince the seventies, I think, or

(38:06):
the 60s, late sixties, and andRama is an offshoot, and the the
titular figure there wassomeone that you call Steve, I
still call Hari Jiwon, that washis name, that he took on.
There's aspects of the Sikhtradition there and it's a Sikh
name.
And I actually got a ride to.

(38:27):
I was practicing Kundalini witha great bunch of people in
Miami and I just was getting somuch out of it and I didn't know
anything really about thebackstory of it.
I was just going to Sadhana.
It was really really helping mylife.
Sadhana is like early morningpractice.
At four o'clock in the morningI'm in Miami.
There's all these likeColombian women and Brazilian
women and they're like in theirwhites, like totally dressed to

(38:49):
the nines so beautiful with theflowers, with the incense.
so I was like I love this.
It's like being in a secretclub, yeah.
And then I went to yeah, I wentto winter solstice and the
person that gave me a ride was aHari Jiwon follower and he was
really interesting.
I didn't know anything aboutHari Jiwon.
So then at that winter solsticeI went because this guy told me

(39:12):
to go and I was really turnedoff.
So he's.
So he's one head, the GuruJagat was like two years later I
was in LA, I got stuck in LAcause I lost my passport and, um
, and I found out my driver'slicense was also expired so I
couldn't fly.
It was the, you know, trump waspresident at that time, so it

(39:32):
was always scary to travel andum, so I was stuck in LA and I
went to this class by accidentand and Guru Jagat was teaching
and she went into this thingabout the mother and you know,
like the Ma frequency that youknow Janae was talking about is
like I have this project calledthe Ma platform and it's about
this kind of like the originalmother and this essence of the

(39:54):
original mother that permeateseverything.
And so she was talking about themother and I have a video from
the class I videotaped like thislittle snippet of her talking
Cause I was just like whoa, sheseems so powerful and she was so
big.
You know, not a yoga body, not.
You know, at that time she wasactually quite thin
comparatively, but she was justall like, like, like powerful

(40:17):
voice and I was like who is this?
And I got on her mailing listand then I got an invitation to
apply to be in the graces.
I just think I kind of got inthere Like I wasn't in any of
her regular things.
I wasn't in immense grace.
I was sort of curious.
I might've jumped into AquarianWomen's Leadership for like a
month or something but I wasn'tthat into it.

(40:39):
So, anyway, so Rama is.
So this woman, guru Jagat.
She was kind of this, one ofthe head figures of this
offshoot school and she justbecame this phenomenon leading a
very women-oriented uh,feminist, femme oriented

(41:00):
practices, and it had this likemystery school feeling, I think,
with aquarium women'sleadership.
She only let people in the newmoon or something.
I was like whoa, there was likea door on the facebook page or
oh yeah, it was like.
This door will only open up anew moon and I was like I want
to get in there.

(41:21):
So, anyway, so there were.
It was like a tiered system, sothat was the bottom system,
which was pretty much online.
Then there was immense grace,where there were, like you know,
quarterly gatherings.
And then there was the graces,which was just like this inner
circle, and you got to speakdirectly to Guru Jagat a couple
of times a month.
And I didn't have the money, itwas like $1,000 a month.

Jenee (41:44):
It was like $1,200 a month.

Kathee (41:46):
Yeah, and I just made it happen.
That's why, when people tell methey don't have money to work
with me or do anything, and I'mlike you can make it happen
because I did make it happen,and yeah, or do anything, and
I'm like you can make it happenCause I did make it happen, and
um and uh, yeah, but you know, Ijust want.
I was in the middle of a bigtransformation and I wanted
somebody like that in my courtand I really wanted someone to

(42:08):
not just be like you know thisvoice, but I wanted someone
really kicking my ass.

Jenee (42:12):
Yes.

Kathee (42:13):
Yeah, that's how I so.
And then in these gatherings ofimmense grace, and also the
graces were there, and so that'swhere you and I met.

Jenee (42:20):
Yeah.

Kathee (42:21):
You were in immense grace right.

Jenee (42:23):
I was in immense grace and um and Aquarian women's
leadership society and I, um,yeah, I, I had done two years of
immense grace and then hadstarted the third year and when
everything sort of like rampedup with the Premka book and um,

(42:45):
the film came out that men Daveand how to even I call him Steve
put out.

Kathee (42:51):
Yeah, excusing Yogi Bhajan.
Yogi Bhajan had, who is theleader of the whole movement,
had his me too moment with this,yes, revealing book, which was
a very soft reveal, actually,compared to everything that came
out afterwards well, I mean,they had tried to sweep that
under the carpet for 20 years,you know.

Jenee (43:10):
So I think the day that film came out.
And then someone sent me a linkto wrong at Rama or Rama wrong.

Kathee (43:18):
And it was Rama wrong.

Jenee (43:20):
Yeah, and they were like you might want to check this out
, and I was literally standingin the backyard of my parents'
house and I was like goingthrough this thing and I was
like I'm done, I'm done, I thinkI talked to you.
I talked to Sasha.
I'm not going to you.
I talked to Sasha, I'm notgonna.
I don't want to bring up toomany other women yeah, too many

(43:40):
names yeah yeah, I'm, yeah, so,but I was just like I went and
canceled my subscription andlike got the email from Shabat
Preet and she's like I see thatyou canceled and I was like,
yeah, I just really need to stepaway.
I didn't really like, I wasn'tlike totally sure.
I mean I I was like, yeah, Ithink I'm done, but like I, you

(44:03):
know, had a lot of friends inthere, so that was like what was
really hard for me is becausethat was like my deep, deep
community, like I was, I wascoaching women, I was doing
voice work and I was superconnected, like like some of
these women were becoming likemy dearest friends, you know,
and I was like it was that's thewhole thing, that's part of

(44:25):
like being in a container.
That's a you know, quoteunquote cult or whatever.
It's like it was my whole life.

Kathee (44:32):
Yeah, they worked really hard at that.
I mean it was beautifully.
Yeah, they worked really hardat that.
I mean it was beautifully.
I mean it.
It was not my whole life I'm sograteful for, but it took a big
chunk of it, um, but but it isdefinitely um.
There were so many beautifulparts of that because there were
so many great women in in thatcommunity that I'm still close

(44:53):
with and.
And and also Guru Jagat didreally emphasize that you could
do anything.
You know and like and like.
You know, I heard that a lot inmy life growing up in like the
60s and 70s, but you don't hearthat a lot now that you can do
anything.
Yeah, you know, that's not theculture anymore and she really

(45:14):
said that and it was like as awoman and not just like.
Like as a woman, I mean, Ididn't feel like her queer
politics were very good at all,but she did allude to them but
definitely tried to include andthere were people in her inner
community that were queer andyou know.
But but it was like.
It was just like, not just as awoman, but kind of like like as

(45:36):
an independent thinker, likelike it was very entrepreneurial
and spiritual and notnecessarily like a yoga school,
like people were doing all kindsof things, yeah, yeah.
So it wasn't like you can havea spiritual, entrepreneurial
life and be a yoga teacher.
This was like big plans, youknow, and they really like there
was lots of homework, you know,and so much homework and so so

(45:56):
much homework and so much indeep inner work and it was good
Like.
I mean my family will say, yeah,I'm very close with my
daughters and they didn't wantto have anything to do with it.
They were just like white ladywith the turban sitting on the
throne.

Jenee (46:10):
Like forget it, mom, no thanks.

Kathee (46:13):
But, um, but they will say, like it changed me in a
good way, like they were likewow, you know, like I really was
getting past a lot oflimitations and I was really
like getting a larger aura.
If you want to go there.

Jenee (46:27):
Yeah, yeah, I mean for me like I wouldn't be married to
my husband, like there's so muchthat like, and that's one thing
that kind of bothered me aboutthe documentary was like there
was no one, except for the onewoman.
Really that was like good orjagged changed my life.
I was in this like really badrelationship and you know, we're

(46:49):
not hearing about like all ofthe, the women who, like got off
alcohol and drugs, like all thesuccess stories and stuff.
Like my I mean my mom was likewow, like she's like stay with
it, stay with it.
And when I started to wobbleshe was like you know, I really
think you should stay with it,cause like you're, you're just
like you know it was giving methat like forward projection.

(47:14):
You know, and she kicked my ass,like Gouda Jagat singled me out
that like forward projection,you know, and she kicked my ass
like who did I get?
She kicked my ass too.
Yeah, she singled me out a lotand was like boop, boop, like
public humiliation almost.
But I had this likenarcissistic streak in me.
That was like an invertedspiral.
It was immaturity and I knowshe saw it.

(47:35):
She saw it like right away andshe'd like get in there, like,
but then, like she also elevatedme, like I, you know, I'm
working and teaching voice in away now and in working with
music in a way now that likethere was something in that, but
like she gave me the platformto do that.
You, you know, but everythingwas kind of about like what it

(48:00):
looked like on the outside.
And then, you know, when Italked to, like my friends of
color, you know like she wouldput all the women in the photo
shoots that were like, you know,like the five women of color
that were in the same.
yeah, yeah yeah, and it was justlike you know and I'd I'd speak
to people that, like you know,she was stealing people's work

(48:22):
kind of in, even inside, likethe sangeet, like yeah you know,
all the time it was crazy likewell, I mean, I think that the
thing is that she was not.

Kathee (48:36):
I mean, so why?
The reason we're talking aboutthis is just to say there's a
four part documentary calledBreath of Fire on HBO.
If you haven't seen it, it'sdefinitely like.
I do think they did a good jobof telling the Yogi Bhajan story
and connecting it to Guru Jagatin a way that made sense.
So that I thought because inthe first episode I was like, oh

(48:59):
, this is too big a splittime-wise.
But, I actually think theybrought it together, but it made
sense for the people watchingit and I feel like there was a
lot of truth in there.
But it skipped over things tomake you know life is not
coherent.
Life doesn't make sense.

Jenee (49:21):
Life has big gaps of credulity, I think that's the
word.

Kathee (49:22):
You know like it's just, like there's so many, there's
so much craziness, and I dothink so.
With that said, I think she waschosen by Hari Jiwon to be the
figurehead for Rama, and then Ithink she also had a lot of her
own ideas.

Jenee (49:39):
And as.

Kathee (49:39):
I told you, I don't want to name names, but somebody
from the old school you know, og, like yogi bhajan community,
said to me like a couple ofyears before Guru Jagat passed
away, was like you are friendswith her, you should.
And this was someone hardcore,who had lived the life, had
lived at the ashram had been asecretary of yogi bhajan.

(50:02):
But she's very smart and verycontemporary, yeah, and she said
what she's doing, like she,like, she should just like, if
she's going to use the kundalini, keep it like adjunct, like she
should like, market her thing,yes, you know, and her thing is
really powerful and this issomeone who lived their whole
life with Kundalini.
And she's like, like, like,basically, it's going to

(50:22):
strangle her and I think it did.
But, like you said, it's not tonot hold her accountable,
because the part that she waspromised, that she was going to
be famous and have all thismoney and be this guru and who
knows exactly what was promotedto her, what was going to happen
, but so she was running on thatenergy and that made her make a

(50:43):
lot of bad decisions.
But you know, to go to thequality of the work that you and
I are talking about, she thatcame from her.
That was not, that was not fromthe teachings of Yogi Bhaja.
I mean, he would talk aboutwomen somewhat, but she took it
and ran with it.
It was her vision, thatentrepreneurial thing, a lot of
the like, the business school Iwas in, the visionary, whatever

(51:06):
that was called yeah, thevisionaries something.
Yeah, it was like a three day,only 10 people.
Yeah, it was a deep dive, yeah,to project your vision for your
business, and she gave a realanalysis.
Plus everybody else gave inputand there were people at all
different levels and a lot oflike heavy hitters.
It was all women and it was.

(51:28):
I want to say once again when Isay it's all women, because
people in my community I comefrom a very queer community
they're like was it all women?
It was pretty much all ciswomen.
There was never even though shetalked about, you know, like
femme queer.
I don't think she ever talkedabout trans, but she definitely
talked about binary stuff, butanyway, anyway, but that was

(51:50):
really good.
I think that was the last bigthing I ever did with her and I
got a lot out of it.
It was like after that that Istarted my first, which I don't
think you were a part of.
I had like a school called theLuna ship and it was like a
monthly you know kind ofAquarian women's leadership
thing and that was great.
The only reason it actually didreally well.
The reason I stopped it waslike I don't want to do this,

(52:10):
yeah you know like it's so muchwork.
But yeah, so that was the lasttime.
I mean, we spoke maybe a coupleof times after that, but that
was the last time I was reallyin her presence and that was
during lockdown and I was athome.

Jenee (52:25):
You know it was a video.
Yeah, it's like, it'sinteresting.
I mean, they did do a prettygood job, you know, tying it all
in and, like we like we bothsaid when we were talking
privately I think there couldhave been one more episode.

Kathee (52:41):
Um, but yeah but.

Jenee (52:44):
I yeah, it's interesting because you see her almost like
backed into a corner, you know,looking at like this different
perspective and kind of the theshift, that sort of what they
were talking about in thedocumentary where the lawsuit
came on and then you start tosee like they're saying that she

(53:06):
shifted, you know and you cantell.
I mean, I don't know it, justit looks like maybe there was
like a massive, intense stressand unhappiness.

Kathee (53:18):
Well, I think it was all in her name.
I guess it was in Marama's namebut.
I mean they say in thedocumentary and I had heard it
that of course you have thisbook that comes out.
You refer to the Premka book.
People that Don't Know it was abook that came out of someone
that was a secretary for YogiBhajan back in the day and it

(53:38):
you know it starts with herhaving an abortion with a child
with Yogi Bhajan.
That's the very beginning ofthe book and you know it's the
first time something like thatwas.
It was written in a book and itcame out and everybody saw it
and all these groups came outand people were discussing it.
So and that came out right whenthe COVID lockdown started.
So those two things you know.

(54:01):
I mean I'm just assuming fromthe information I've gotten and
also just common sense, thatthat really caused a lot of
financial difficulty and theysaid it in the documentary and I
had also heard it that you knowthat was like this clothing
business.
It was all these businesses.
Yeah, so many businesses Goingbankrupt various studios that

(54:23):
weren't being used, and so Ithink, even though there were
other kind of figures around,she was the business person.
She was the business person,she was the business mind yeah,
and I think, but then again she,you know who knows with the
weight.
Also, I witnessed herpersonally being so compulsive

(54:46):
with money yeah and uh.
So you know, like having thiswhole lifestyle and everything
that just um was built on thisidea that there would be
unlimited money.
When Yogi Bhajan died, you knowhe was still like a
multimillionaire, yeah, and so,anyway, I don't know.

(55:06):
She also could never I know youand I have talked about this,
I've talked about this with somany other people she could
never admit that she was wrong,ever, yeah that was the shadow.
Never apologized yeah, ever,even for little things.
Other people she could neveradmit that she was wrong ever.
That was the shadow.
Never apologized yeah, ever,even for little things.
So when that book came out, shedoubled down supporting yogi,
saying that the man had beendead for you know however long

(55:28):
he died in 2004, he couldn'tdefend himself and that these
women were lying.
So she basically said, thewomen crying rape were lying
yeah, and she really doubleddown on that.
She never said she was sorry atany point she could have said I
was wrong but she never did andI you know they implied in the

(55:49):
documentary in a dramatic waythat that killed her.
But I feel like she reallychanged after that.

Jenee (55:54):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I feel like, well, and that's why I
left, because I was like I wasreally looking for that's why I
left, because I was like I wasreally looking for um, mentors
who are walking their talk, youknow, and I was like, yeah, all
the buddy but Yogi Bhajan stuff,whatever, you're getting so
tired.

Kathee (56:14):
That's okay.
I want to finish this, but uhyeah, no, it's like it's getting
dark here yeah.

Jenee (56:20):
It's only, it's only 4, 15, and I'm like, yeah, it's
bedtime yeah, but yeah, I meanlike I you know, yes, the yogi
bhajan stuff, blah, blah,whatever.
But I was like, yeah, it wasthe response to that and I'm not
seeing examples of women whoare actually like powerful and

(56:41):
are like kind to their staff oryou know this, this like is it
out there?
Cause you just see these likevoracious, you know women that
are cutthroat or whatever, andit's like, okay, is there anyone
out there doing this, you know?
And I thought that I had foundthis mentor in Guru Jagat that

(57:01):
was like, you know, a feminist,and was like was really like
bringing women up, and then youcome to find out that there's
just this like completelydifferent side to her and the
way that she's treating herstaff and like, yeah, it's
interesting.
I'm like, was I in a cult?
What happened there, you know,when I left my friend, do you

(57:22):
feel like you were in a cult?
What happened there, you know?

Kathee (57:23):
when I left my friend.

Jenee (57:24):
Do you feel like you were in a cult when I left, like I
called my best friend and shestarted crying and she was like
she was worried about you.

Kathee (57:31):
Yeah.

Jenee (57:31):
She was worried and she's like I didn't think you're ever
going to leave.
I felt like you were in a cult,like everything was Kundalini
24, seven.
Every answer for everything waskundalini, like you know.
So, uh, I was just like writingthat high of like well, it did
make you really high.

Kathee (57:51):
It does make you really high and, just like anything
else, you don't want to comedown.
Yeah, um, I think you're alsoyounger than me, you know.
I think that makes a difference, because I think her real like
focus was women in theirthirties and you saw that in the
documentary of people thatweren't quite getting the things
from life that they wanted.

(58:12):
You know, I think that was likereally her focus.
Yeah, and I think what I wantto say about the cult thing when
I say, well, do you feel likeyou're in a cult, is she could
have put out all that stuff thatshe put out and you could be
overly attached to her.
you know, like it happens withall sorts of things multi-level
marketing medicine, whatever,and and like we weren't we, we

(58:36):
weren't all living together, Imean they did weasel tons of
money out of us, but we weren'ttithing in a way, you know, like
just giving everything to them,and so in that way, a lot of
the things are very cultish, butthey were not.
There wasn't like sexual favors,really not.
You know, as far as I mean,steve is another story, but yeah

(59:00):
, not with with Guru Jagat, andI don't think she was interested
in that at all and that kind ofmanipulation.
So there, you know, so therewas like, but the thing is, I
think where it was a cult wasthat there was a larger agenda
and that she was kind of doingher own thing for a while and

(59:22):
then like, if there had not beenthe reveal about Yogi Bhajan,
maybe she would have had alonger run of doing what she
loved, yeah, which would havecontinued to be beneficial, yeah
, so I guess I'm just sayinglike it's not, that I don't
think it's a cult.
People thought I was in a culttoo, yeah, but I think when you
say, was I in a cult, I thinkit's really like.

(59:44):
I know people that have been incults, that have completely
lost themselves, and I knowpeople that follow Alma that I
consider it's a cult.

Jenee (59:53):
You know what I mean.

Kathee (59:53):
Like, who give up everything, and she's not nice
to her staff either.
Like I know people have been intheir circle with her and feel
like the hugging saint.
You know it's like Like I knowpeople have been in their circle
with her and feel like thehugging saint.
You know it's like like it getsfucked up when there's money
and power, you know.
So I just say that I kind of tosay I think like when you look
at something you know, like Iknow Charlotte was interviewed

(01:00:14):
by the NXIVM the people thatleft NXIVM a little bit cultish
and I think like something likethat where they were all living
together and there was likethese intensely manipulative,
like like maybe the inner circle, the staff.

Jenee (01:00:34):
And I do feel bad about that, but they were also thought
they were living their bestlife for a long time.
They're flying all over theworld.
You know.
I think Gooder Juggett had saidif you think that ending your
subscription is a cult, you're.
I was like that's pretty good,you know, yeah, but you know
there's definitely like yeah,there's flavors.

Kathee (01:00:51):
But I do want to say somebody that the two of us know
, and I'm not going to say hername, but you know she was doing
something.
She lives in California, youknow, in Southern California she
was doing something for Ramaand decided that she wanted to
quit, and you know, and thenGuru Jagat said to her this was
after I'd already left, but hesaid to her you're going to lose
everything in your life, likeyour children, your marriage,

(01:01:15):
like any abundance, becauseyou're quitting.
Yeah, and I'm like but that wasafter she would already was
going downhill.
You know, like that was like adesperate move.
I don't know if she would havesaid that two years before, but
yeah, she said it and I'm like,well, that's a cult, so like
what?

Jenee (01:01:32):
well, that's like when, when the vajra hell um concept
came out out of nowhere, all ofa sudden this like tibetan
buddhist concept starts to comein, and it's like she just
picked up everything.

Kathee (01:01:45):
I was just like whatever worked, yeah, but I don't think
that was her.

Jenee (01:01:49):
I don't think that was her.

Kathee (01:01:51):
I think that was.
But I mean but Rama, but Ramain general they were just cherry
picked from all.

Jenee (01:01:56):
Yeah.
So tell them, though, what theysaid about the Vajra hell.
Yeah, it was like.
Vajra hell is basically like ifyou turn away from your teacher
, you know, and there's there'sa lot of like in the spiritual
traditions.
There's this like um, a lot ofspiritual traditions.
I feel like there's this wholething about you know, basically

(01:02:19):
you have to accept like anythingfrom your teacher, like
everything is, like a gift.
So if they're abusing you, ifthey hit you, you know and
Charlotte had talked about, likethe adjustments, so you know,
getting getting reamed out orchewed out, that was an
adjustment, you know, that'svery like.

(01:02:40):
So that that concept of V, thatconcept of vajra hell, was just
like if you stepped away fromyour teacher, you were going to
be lost for eternity, you know,in some sort of realm where you
could never purgatory purgatorywhere you could never like get

(01:03:00):
back to yourself.

Kathee (01:03:02):
And and I was just like it's the weirdest, like the most
manipulative, like well, andthen for those of you who are
not aware of the whole story,and then she passes away
suddenly at 41 yeah, yeah, itwas so weird I had.

Jenee (01:03:20):
I was out of the you know , I've been out for a couple
years and then, all of a sudden,like something told me to like
hop on Guru Jagat's Instagramaccount, like the day before.
And I was like, oh, it was likeprayers for Guru Jagat, like da
, da, da, da da.
And I was like, oh, this isreally weird.
Actually, it was that day, itwas August 1st and I was like

(01:03:42):
what, what is going on?
And then I looked at her postthat she had was in the hospital
, and she was like death ischasing me or whatever, and and
and then I saw a link to like goon, zoom and pray for her.
And I was like it was 901.
And I was like't know, I'mgonna come on this zoom, like

(01:04:04):
and start praying for her.
And it was literally like theywere playing one set of music.
All of a sudden, they theyturned on a call.
Wow, and I was like what?

Kathee (01:04:18):
it was 907.

Jenee (01:04:19):
I was lit.
I honestly feel like I wassupposed to.
I don't know if she called me,I don't know what that was, but
I was supposed to be there and,just like you know, I watched

(01:04:44):
her memorial.
I knew I needed closure but,like, yeah, it took me, I
couldn't get closure on thetopic of any of it.
You know, like I, I finally gotclosure this last February.
I did a, an AYA ceremony and onsecond day I was like let's look
at this, it's time, let's lookat it.
And I was like I can't makeheads or tails, I can't like.
And you know, I was like, look,you gave your power away,

(01:05:09):
didn't you?
And I was like I did, that'swhat I did.
I gave my power away and then Ijust like purged, I mean, it
was like buckets and that was it.
That was all.
The lesson for me Wasn't givingmy power away.
But I spent years after thatbeing like I can't look at it.
I don't know, I can't makeheads or tails.

(01:05:30):
You know, even I talked adnauseum to my friends about this
, you know, but it was juststill.
It just wasn't.
None of it was sitting with me,you know.

Kathee (01:05:44):
I always thought, I mean for me, I thought she's gonna
wake up.
I mean this is a good place forme to stop, anyway, yeah she's
gonna wake up and we are gonnahave the best time, yeah and um,
and you know we're gonna getback together.
I really, you know, because Iblocked her, yeah.
So I woke up one day andsomebody in her circle person
said oh, you know, she looks atyour Instagram every like at the

(01:06:07):
business, at the staff meetings, and just it makes fun of you,
like, checks everything outevery day.
Yeah, and I didn't even botherme because I'm like, oh yeah,
she makes fun of me.
She's just like stealing, youknow.
So I didn't.
I didn't feel humiliated, but Iwas just like cause I had
already really separated, but Iwas still interested.
And then I was in New York and Iwent to sleep that night and in

(01:06:29):
the morning I'm laying in thebed where I'm staying and I
blocked everybody so that shecouldn't sit in that room and
ask somebody.
I blocked everybody and withintwo hours she had opted off my
mailing list.
So I thought oh, you arechecking my email, you are
checking my Instagram, becausethat's the only way she would
have known is that she went tolook at it.

(01:06:51):
So it's just like I was justlike so that I felt, you know,
not to make it about me, becauseshe had a million people that
she you know or not a million,but there was a lot of people
that she was close to her, thatshe kind of confided in at the
level she confided in with me.
I was not in her circle but, um, but it was like I just I know

(01:07:15):
that that was hurtful, totally,yeah, and and it's kind of why I
did it, you know, cause I wasjust like you're stealing,
you're out of your integrity,but like part of me.
It's one of those things likeyou break up with somebody, you
say something to me, you knowwhat will hurt them.
And I knew, even though it'sjust social media, I knew that

(01:07:36):
that would be like to her, thatI did that.
So I always felt like someday,you know we'll, cause I never
talked to her again and that wastwo years before she died.
That was like when I finallywas like, and I didn't talk to
Pritam Siri, I talked to HarmanJodh after.
I mean, we're not naming names,but I talked to her after she
died, like within a day aftershe died.

(01:07:58):
We spoke on the phone.
Otherwise, yeah, never talkedto anybody wow just like really
shut it down.

Jenee (01:08:05):
So wow, anyway, um, but you know, but I did feel like,
yeah, we're gonna be friendslater, like you're gonna come
back, you're gonna wake up toyourself, you're gonna like,
maybe everything will burn down,like sometimes that's what
happens, people at the bottom,they lose everything, and then
they remember who they are youknow, yeah, yeah, really quick,

(01:08:27):
just to you know, I don't knowlike, I think the vice magazine
article came out, you know, amonth before she died, like she
was riding such a high and yeah,that's the only yeah, the way,
and then like the money to fall,like that was.

Kathee (01:08:45):
I can't imagine.

Jenee (01:08:46):
I've had times in my life that I felt out of control
financially, nothing touchingwhat.

Kathee (01:08:52):
She was the titular head for you know, yeah, the whole
thing, you know.

Jenee (01:08:57):
to have my friend and I were talking about this last
night to you, know I?
But to be that publicly knownand to have all of that tumbled
down as quickly as it did, andjust everything being out of
control, it's devastating.

Kathee (01:09:17):
But she would make fun of Wild Wild Country and the.
Bikram documentary and stuff,and it's like I just can't
believe, like how.
That's the part that makes mefeel like I know, you know, you
said to me like well, she isaccountable, but I also feel
like the manipulation was sodeep that at some point she
didn't think it would touch her.
She didn't think it because,like she would say, because it's

(01:09:40):
exactly the same thing, yeah,as that went down with all those
other gurus.
Yeah, but she acted like she wasso far beyond that you know.
Yeah, I guess you never thinkit's about you.

Jenee (01:09:50):
Yeah, it's true, I have to have you on again.
We'll talk more about your work, I know.

Kathee (01:09:56):
I know Thank you so much .
Well, thank you.

Jenee (01:10:04):
Thank, thank you, thank you, I had a good time, yeah,
yeah, I'm grateful for you too,thank you, and I'll post uh,
I'll post the links to yourwebsite, to your work and to
your sub stack and anything thatyou want to announce right now
that you're working on, or um, Iwant to direct people to
something yeah, I mean really,uh, you know it's kind of funny,
but the Instagram, like I had abig fancy website that had

(01:10:25):
animations and all this stuffand it.

Kathee (01:10:28):
It just had a fatal flaw in it and my web designer
refused to.
You know, it was like soexpensive and it just really
couldn't be resurrected a coupleof years ago.
And I'm like my sub stack andmy Instagram.
You'll see everything I'm doingand the memes I think are my
prayers and my best work, really, and so I like go to Instagram

(01:10:50):
as the love artist the sub stackis my brainiac more and I do
take private clients one-to-onein a coaching container every
solstice.
So I'm going to start thebeginning of december
interviewing people and there'sjust like 10 to 15 people per
six month cycle and we do, youknow, uh, anything that you want

(01:11:11):
to transform, like we put onthe altar.
It could be a relationship,could be work, it could be um,
just you know your innerstruggle, um believing in
yourself or whatever, and soyeah, so that'll be coming up.

Jenee (01:11:25):
It's called.

Kathee (01:11:25):
Highgarden and that's all Highgarden.
I love that.
Yeah, People, you can see thaton the sub stack or on.

Jenee (01:11:28):
Instagram Great.
Thank you so much.

Kathee (01:11:32):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Love you, Love you.

Jenee (01:11:42):
The Heartlight Sessions podcast is executive produced
and hosted by me, janae Halstead.
It's edited, mixed and masteredby me too, and that theme song
you hear it's called Heartlight.
And yep, you guessed it, it'sfrom my record.
Disposable Love.
Got questions about a certainhealing modality or about
heart-centered healing, or maybeyou just need some advice on
life, love or creativity.

(01:12:02):
Send it my way, email me atletters at heartlightpodcastcom.
Until next time, I'm JanaeHalstead, and thanks for
listening to Heartlight Sessions.
Thousand volts of sunshine,razor burning so bright.

(01:12:23):
Thank you.