July 22, 2025 • 46 mins
What happens when the mask you've worn your whole life finally falls off?
In this moving episode of The Heart On My Sleeve Podcast, host Lainie Cassidy sits down with Aisling Smith – internationally recognised neurodiversity consultant, Stevie Award winner, and Trainer of the Year – for a raw, vulnerable conversation about living, parenting, and thriving as a late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD woman.
From growing up in rural Ireland under emotional suppression, to unknowingly masking for decades in school and corporate life, Ashling shares how her son’s diagnosis led to her own awakening. Together, they unpack the deep grief, shame, and relief that can come with understanding your neurodivergent identity as an adult—and how those painful moments can transform into purpose.
This episode is for anyone who’s ever felt “too much,” who’s learned to blend in to survive, and who is ready to reclaim the power in being unapologetically themselves.
⚠️ Content note: This episode touches on trauma, burnout, and emotional masking.
Connect with Aisling: https://aisling-smith.com/
Bio:
Aisling Smith is a globally recognised Neurodiversity Trainer of the Year, 40 Under 40 Business Elite Award Honouree and Silver Stevie Award winner for Social Change in Disability. A late-diagnosed autistic woman with ADHD, Aisling leverages her lived experience and over a decade of professional expertise to empower neurodivergent individuals and transform workplaces worldwide.As an international speaker, best-selling author, and highly sought-after consultant, Aisling has inspired thousands with her innovative approach to neuro-inclusion. She partners with global organisations to implement sustainable neuro-inclusive strategies, rewrite policies, and create thriving, diverse workplaces. Her 7-pillar diversity and inclusion training program has become a benchmark for organisations aiming to foster inclusive environments and unlock the full potential of their teams.Aisling’s expertise is deeply rooted in her personal journey. As the mother of a neurodivergent child, she is driven to normalise and celebrate neurodiversity in all aspects of life. Her work transcends professional boundaries, as she also founded The New to Neurodiversity Club, a transformative community for late-diagnosed professional women with autism and ADHD. This platform offers tailored resources, coaching, and empowerment to help women embrace their strengths and create fulfilling lives.With a background spanning 15+ years in psychology, event production, advertising, and business, Aisling combines her professional and entrepreneurial experience with ground-breaking psychological and neuroscience techniques. She is known for delivering engaging, actionable presentations that challenge traditional thinking and empower audiences to create workplaces where neurodivergent employees excel.Aisling’s accolades include:• Neurodiversity Trainer of the Year 2024• 40 under 40 Business Elite 2024• Silver Stevie Award for Social Change in Disability 2024• MBN Awards: New Business of the Year 2022• IACC: Entrepreneur of the Year Finalist 2022• Most Empowering Corporate Trainer 2023Aisling’s dedication to breaking biases around neurodiversity and promoting workplace inclusion has positioned her as a trailblazer in her field.Her mission is clear: to impact over a million lives by making neurodiversity a celebrated and normalised aspect of human diversity worldwide. Aisling Smith is the speaker and trainer your organisation needs to foster understanding, enhance collaboration, and drive innovation through neuro-inclusion.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I I,I I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us, inside us. I've been very interested in
this for a long, long time. Something settles.
Welcome back to Heart on My Sleeve podcast.
Hello, I'm Laney Cassidy, and I'm delighted to host this
(00:41):
podcast today where we talk about what it means to wear your
heart on your sleeve, mental health and neurodiversity as a
power to step into. Today's episode is one I've been
deeply looking forward to. We've talked about what it means
to wear your heart on your sleeve, especially as a
(01:02):
neurodivergent. We will explore that today.
Navigating a world that often expects emotional restraint,
neatness, and conformity. And personally, myself, as
someone with expertise in psychology, I've spent years in
workplaces. And if there's one thing I know
for sure, it's that vulnerability is not a weakness.
(01:23):
It's one of the greatest expressions of emotional
intelligence and courage that wehave.
And yet, for so many neurodiverse people, those
living with ADHD, autism and beyond, that vulnerability has
often been misunderstood and misread.
Today's guest is exceptional andknows this terrain too well.
(01:47):
Ashlyn Smith is Neurodivergent Trainer of the Year, an
internationally recognised neurodiversity consultant,
Stevie Award winner and a 40 Under 40 honoree.
Ash, you're an outspoken advocate for ADHD and autism.
I know that personally, myself, and someone who brings so much
truth, power, and nuance to every room that you enter.
(02:13):
We'll explore lived experience, masking, burnout and advocacy,
and what it takes to turn your pain into purpose.
This conversation is for anyone who's been told that they're too
much and has found the strength to show up with power.
This episode explores lived experiences of late diagnosis,
(02:36):
masking, trauma, grief, and guilt, and the complex courage
it takes to share those truths. It may land hard for some.
Please pause, breathe, and be gentle with yourself.
Let's get into it. Ash.
Welcome. It's so lovely to see you.
(02:58):
Thank you Laney, it's so lovely to be here.
It's so good to have you join this podcast.
We've spent years working together in the corporate space
and I'm just delighted to actually have you Share your
story with us today. So thank you.
It's a different hat that I'm wearing with you and I I'm on
(03:18):
it. So a warm welcome.
Thank you. Well, I'm honoured to be here
and I'm very excited about the chat and to share my story and
to, yeah, to wear my heart on mysleeve today.
Thank you. So as a mother of a twice gifted
neurodivergent child and a late diagnosed woman with autism and
(03:39):
ADHD, before you had any language or clarity, what did
daily survival feel like for you?
That's such a good question, Laney.
You know, you don't know what you don't know.
So throughout my life it was just getting on with it and, you
(04:02):
know, trying to be the the best that you can be in whatever
situation you are in because, well, I suppose to get to that
point you need to go to the start.
So my accent probably gives it away, but I'm from Ireland as
you know, and I grew up in the 80s and 90s in rural Ireland.
(04:25):
So coming from very like, you know, a beautiful community that
was very, very much a very Catholic, very values based,
very, very close community, lotsof family, lots of people around
all the time. The primary school that I went
(04:48):
to, however, was very old schooland there was a lot of corporate
punishment in those. And now I've just returned from
a trip to Ireland. So it's very fresh in my mind
because every time I go back nowwith the understanding of who I
really am, getting my diagnosis and understanding and, and, and,
(05:10):
you know, looking deeper into myself, I go back to my roots
and I think what did I miss to to your point, what did I not
see before or how did I miss it or how was it missed?
And when I think about primary school, it was fight or flight.
I was, we were always in a stateof fear.
(05:34):
And when you're, when you're in a fear based state because you
don't want to be hit with a stick by your teacher or you
don't want to, what's wrong? You want to stay, you know,
doing the right thing, you know,throughout a number of years in
primary school, as you practise that at a young age, because we
know the, the format of years are zero to seven.
(05:58):
And you start to create the habits that you that you then
form for a lifetime. And, and I, I can see now that
those habits were formed then from asking for moving up a
front to be what you thought somebody wanted you to be.
(06:21):
So in the classroom, it was you need to be this, you need to be
quiet. You need to be so that you, you
weren't, you know, putting a foot wrong so that you so that
you didn't get hit. It wasn't that way at home, Of
course, My my parents were, werewonderful.
My mother was very inspiring andshe still is, but she, she was
(06:42):
definitely the type of person who told me that I could be
anything that I wanted to be, that the world is my oyster.
And of course now I see because I'm autistic, you know, you take
everything literally. So I always believed and I
always was then filled with thatsense of self belief.
(07:05):
And I think that I built a, a defence mechanism that when
things didn't work out for me throughout my life and I, we can
get into some stories as we go, I always reverted back to those
words and thought, Oh, well, maybe this is just not the thing
(07:26):
and that. Yeah, interesting.
And, you know, it's so good thatyou had that supportive
environment at home because it sounds like school was tough and
you didn't know why it was toughat the time because you didn't
have the language to understand what was going on.
Can you walk us through a time when masking at school nearly
(07:48):
swallowed you? Can you think about a particular
time at school or a period at school when masking nearly
swallowed you? Or, you know, did you ever feel
erased, even if it was fit from yourself at that time, Ash?
Well, I think probably secondaryschool or or high, we call it
secondary school in Ireland. So moving into high school would
(08:10):
have been now upon reflection, Ican see that because you're the
kind of it's, it's difficult. It's a it's a horrible time in,
in defining who you are. You know what you're about.
And I think I was quite influenced at the time.
Thank God there was no social media back then, but I would
(08:33):
have been influenced by probablythe likes of watching now.
This is going back in time like Clueless the movie by.
I do remember that. American kind of movies or shows
like Clarissa or Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
So, so, so identifying like individuals that kind of stood
(08:55):
out who I would have thought, yeah, maybe like that's who I
want to be like. That's the kind of, you know,
that's the kind of vibe that I would like to take as to who I
am. So I didn't obviously know it at
the time, but it was putting up the mask to be that kind of
popular person. And I think that I felt that if
I was popular, I'd be OK. So trying to do the thing.
(09:20):
So I, I guess essentially and, and in the formation of your
personality and who you are, Laney and you know, are you
like, what is authenticity? Is it because you want to be
something, or is it because it'sinnate within you or do they all
come together? I think, and you know, I would
(09:43):
definitely say that, you know, feeling as though I wanted to be
popular, felt like it would be asafety net for me because I
could be protected. Yeah.
And and I was just about to say that it sounds like it was a
protective barrier for you because you didn't understand
it, but that felt safe at the time, right?
And, and you kind of would then gravitate to that in the
(10:05):
classroom or or even in the schoolyard.
I mean, kids can be cruel, Ash, like they can be still even
today, but back in the 80s and 90s even more so.
What was the experience like amongst your peers?
Being probably a little bit misunderstood or feeling like
you didn't fit in at that time. Yeah, well, I grew up in that in
(10:26):
a, in a family. There were five children in our
family and I had four brothers. So I had no sisters.
I was very close to my mum, but I didn't have that kind of, you
know, that female that you can, that you get that I would have
seen that my brothers had with each other, but my brothers
(10:46):
raised me to be tough. They and I remember, like my mum
just said, when I was at home, they they used to say, well, we
don't want her to be a Sissy when she grows up.
So we want her to be tough and be able to stand up for herself.
So again, going into when I would have heard things like
that, I would have locked in those kind of statements as
(11:09):
matter of fact, OK, I need to betough.
I need to stand up for myself. So these would have been the the
the essences through which I would have, you know, built my
world upon. So quite in the literal sense.
So it's almost like tough exterior.
I've been told I need to be tough and therefore I can't
feel. Yeah, and, and, and, and also I
(11:31):
think, you know, in discovering,you know, my, my nuances within
autism, within ADHD and, and how, you know, how they impact
me or, you know, how they, you know, I supposed to come up for
me because we're all different. As, you know, if you've got one
autistic person, you've met one,because we all have different
(11:55):
nuances and feelings and, and the way that it shows up for us
all, it is very different. But there's a, there's a term of
phrase called alexithymia, whichis kind of not really
understanding the feelings and sensations within yourself and
not really understanding what feelings are or what feelings
(12:17):
you should have. So quite often autistic people
can be deemed to be inappropriate where we could
laugh in a situation where you shouldn't and where you might
cry in a situation that wouldn'tnormally cause one to, to, to
have tears. And, and, and not, you know,
(12:38):
that they're just very basic examples, but you know, it is to
do with the, the bodily sensations as well as to what
like you're actually feeling andwhat that, what that regards.
But in those days, you know, I think the sense of feeling, we
didn't talk about feelings. There was no, you know, there
(12:59):
wasn't. It was tough love and you just
got on with it. If you fell down, you picked
yourself up and you got on with it.
I played a lot of sport. And, you know, again, that just,
you know, it gave me camaraderie.
But also I do remember always feeling quite isolated or, you
(13:20):
know, not so much alone, but, you know, different in that I
was always like playing catch upwith everybody.
I was never like the leader of the pack essentially.
I would always be like when I would go into a room or join a
club or you know, I was always and still I'm very social, but I
would look to the room to see who was the person that people
(13:45):
looked up to, who was the personthat was leading the the rumour
that was engaging everybody. And then unconsciously and
completely within my subconscious mind, I would then
match in mirror their habits, their behaviours, their, their,
you know, what were the things that were making them stand out
(14:07):
to be, to shine in that situation.
And then I would look to, to emulate that within myself
because I would have felt that that was what was accepted in
this group. And that's if I wanted to be
within this group, then that's what I should be.
So it was always a sense of justtalking about masking, putting
(14:29):
on a different mask, being a chameleon.
Ash, that sounds exhausting. That sounds exhausting.
And you know, as a young child, even more exhausting, right?
And so thank you for sharing that, that it wasn't just one
pass like it's I'm hearing you now.
It was several masks that you had to wear.
(14:50):
And pretty quickly, like you said, chameleon adopt, you know,
to whoever it was in the room that you felt you needed to
mould to, if you could go back to your masked self, what would
you say? Oh goodness.
Different, different Times Now than then.
I think I would have been expelled if I was really.
(15:12):
I don't think I would have gotten through school by being
myself in for like at that time,you know?
Let's stick with that, Ash. Why?
Why? Because I, I mentioned before
around, you know, society sometimes individuals with ADHD
and or autism can often feel misunderstood, misheard and and
(15:36):
sometimes punished in society that doesn't understand them.
So why do you think you would have been expelled?
Well, I would be and you know, it has, I suppose as I grew into
more of myself in as an, as an adult, you know, that has come
about. But I would have been a very
(15:56):
challenging student. I would have always been asking
why I would have always, you know, challenged the, the
narrative because I was, you know, just, I just wanted to
know more. I love information if I'm
interested in the topic. If I'm not, I'll completely
(16:17):
switch off. But if it's if it is something
of interest to me, I would, you know, always want more.
And then if it wasn't, I would have been the naughty child in
the classroom. Just, you know, you know, and
like either just gazing out the window inattentively or, you
(16:37):
know, just being disruptive and and disturbing other people or
the students in the classroom. And, and I would have been a
little bit of both of those whenI was falling out of my mask,
you know, because the mask isn'talways like rigid because when
you have to change masks, not that I knew that I was because I
just thought that everybody did that.
(16:59):
That you just became, when you went into different classrooms
for different teachers and you just became the student for that
class, for that teacher. And you, you put on the hat.
And if it was a, a subject that you were really interested in,
Grace you, you know. You excelled and you were hyper
(17:20):
focused and you were on Yeah, with diagnosis came clarity, I'm
sure. And you, you then became a
mother of a beautifully twice gifted neurodivergent child with
diagnosis. So let's just stick with your
diagnosis, Ash, and tell me a little bit around why you sought
diagnosis, how you came to learnwhy you needed to kind of go
(17:45):
through that process and was there anything that you had to
shed or lose during that? That's that's such a great
question and rein me in if I go on a tangent because there are
many different avenues from fromthis question.
Laney. So I guess it begins with
Daniel, my gorgeous son. So when he was 2 1/2, he was in
(18:08):
childcare full time. I went back to work and back to
corporate when he was one and hewas in a gorgeous Steiner
childcare and I guess it was hissecond year he was 2 1/2.
So he he had a lovely teacher who absolutely adored him.
(18:29):
And she pulled me aside one day and she said, Ashling, I don't
want to alarm you and please take this in the best possible
way because I adore Daniel, but I, I have a feeling as though he
might be autistic. Now that was like, oh, OK, Gosh,
I wouldn't have seen it. But then I wasn't around
(18:51):
children and I was never really a children type.
I wasn't, you know, very drawn to children.
I wasn't that type of a, of a, of a person like, and it wasn't
that I just didn't have childrenaround my life.
So I didn't know. Again, I didn't know what I
didn't know. And I immediately thought, Oh
well, if he is autistic, he might be a genius, so how can I
(19:15):
support him in harnessing that? But that was pretty much like
immediately I was like, oh, is he?
God, I wouldn't have thought that, but sure, I don't know.
And. I just stop you there.
So your initial thought or Daniel was that he was going to
be a genius? If only everybody in the world
had that same level of thinking,Ash, and even only if you and
(19:39):
and I want to go back to your thinking around yourself,
because did you apply that to yourself?
Like when you related to identifying as somebody with
neurodiversity, did you say, oh,I might be a genius?
No, I've never thought that. No, but I doubt that you say it
(20:00):
though, Lanie. Perhaps.
No, I'm kidding. I, no, I haven't, but I can see
why I get so hyper focused into different things and that I have
done throughout my life and I can see in, in so many ways how
it's been so beneficial for me. And I think also, you know, I
(20:20):
suppose Fast forward three yearsand I'm on the journey with
Daniel attending and I'm so grateful to live in Australia
because if we lived in Ireland, there would have been no
identification, there would havebeen no diagnosis and there
would have been no support because we have NDIS funding and
(20:41):
we were able to jump into speechtherapy, occupational therapy,
play therapy, psychology. As the years went on, everything
that we needed to support him indeveloping the strategies that I
never had to, to, to support myself.
And I think, you know, it's sometimes the, the crossover
(21:03):
with females who have been diagnosed and, and males and
not, you know, not always and not generalising in any way.
But you know, as women, we, we can be extremely resilient and
very capable of, of, of being chameleons or just reading, you
know, the situations and becoming, as I would have said,
(21:27):
whereas the boys are quite oftenwhy they would have been
identified more was because of their lack of masking at a
younger age and, and, and, and their lack of, of, of ability to
cope now. So going back to like those
formative years of zero to sevenwhere Daniel was getting all of
(21:47):
this support and I'm in the roomwith him and the therapist
seeing, you know, how they're doing things.
I'm like, God, you're remarkable.
And I take my hat off to like these.
Amazing. They're pretty exceptional,
aren't they? Life changing.
Life changing and I'm a huge advocate for early intervention
because if you even have a have a have a whiff of a potential
(22:12):
that your child may be neurodivergent, you know, get,
get into the NDIS, get into therapy immediately to support
them because even if it turns out then that they're not,
they've had this additional support to help them to regulate
emotions, to identify, you know,how to interact and engage in
(22:34):
situations that's authentic to them.
And, and and and that's always been the way, like, I learned a
lot, you know, in becoming a better mother in those therapy
sessions with Daniel. How did you what did you learn
from that? Ash, just going back to what you
learned to become a better mother.
And I'm going to challenge you and say I think you also learn a
(22:56):
lot about yourself. And, and then obviously it took
you on your diagnosis journey. Yeah.
Tell us about that. And that was the thing, they
were the the key points. And I think, you know, going
back to the sense of feeling, understanding feelings or how
you should feel or what feeling you should have in a certain
situation. I understanding how to support
(23:19):
Daniel and regulating his emotions.
Making his beautiful occupational therapist was like
making red and green choices. It's so simple, but for a child,
it's so it's so powerful. You know, when they're like, are
you making a red choice or a green choice and for them to be
able to stop. And so literal for them to
(23:41):
understand and apply it. Yeah.
And then you know, what is the, you know what, what happens if
you make a red choice and how does that make everybody feel
and what our feelings. So identifying them what they
are and what, what it you know of what you should do if you
feel a certain way. So it was being able to have
(24:02):
those, you know, conversations out loud with Daniel and to, to,
to, to build off of each appointment in, in, in bringing
that into our world and, and. And did you take tips away for
yourself, Ash, like going sitting in that room supporting
and I am a mother myself. And you know, as mothers, we are
(24:25):
absolutely unapologetically selfless in the way that we show
up for those beautiful beings. Did you in any moment step out
of the caring for Daniel and supporting him with setting him
up for success to kind of go, oh, wow, that is something that
(24:46):
I could apply for myself too. Like where was the light bulb
for you that you then struck A chord within yourself to say,
this is something that I'm goingto explore too?
Well, yeah, there there were so many moments and and especially
then during COVID, you see, because COVID hit in the middle
(25:07):
of this as well. All right, Yeah.
We one of the things was so I'm going to go back in order to go
forward. I'm crossing over very ADHD.
Completely unmasked. Play Dash.
That's your full self. But 13, I'm, I've been in
Australia for 15 years. So yeah, that's 14 years ago
(25:31):
now. I left Australia to go home to
Ireland to participate in The Apprentice.
The the TV show The Apprentice it was.
I did not know that about yourself.
There you go. So I was something that I always
wanted to do. I loved The Apprentice because
when I lived in Ireland before the, the global, the GFC, the
(25:53):
recession, that I, I was an entrepreneur, I was running a
business and then I lost it in the recession and The Apprentice
was like pretty big on the TV atthe time.
And I always thought, yeah, likethat was that's like the kind of
thing that inspires me, that drives me.
I've always been really inspiredand, you know, coming from a
(26:15):
very working class family, I think there's a lot of that
wanting to make my parents proud.
That was a very important thing for me.
So, you know, if I was successful, I would make them
proud. Now, you know, now I know that
they're just proud anyway because I've turned out to be a
good person. At least, you know, I think so
(26:35):
and they think so. So, but at the time I think
you're you're, you know, striving, which again is the
resilience. And it's the thing that just
kept me pushing through as well,Laney, just that, you know,
bouncing back that that constantthing.
But when I was fired from The Apprentice, I experienced like
(26:55):
extreme depression. And I think it was the first
time in my life that that had happened because it was
mortifying. It would have been the RSD, as
we call it now, rejection sensitive dysphoria,
experiencing in like a huge way and, and just being, you know,
(27:17):
not showing up in the way that Iwould have liked to because it's
reality television and it's, youknow, relatively staged, which I
didn't know because I was. So, you know, what would the
word be as a green or, you know,just not, not aware of the the
(27:40):
nuances of what was actually going on.
And then, you know, looking back, I think hindsight is, is
great and foresight, you know, to, to know, okay, it wasn't
necessarily you, but it was the situation that you were in.
And it's your emotional dysregulation that I, you know,
(28:03):
identify now. So many instances throughout my
life where I had that emotional dysregulation, you know, that
Daniel would have been experiencing in those therapy
sessions. I was experiencing them in
different situations throughout my life that I could say.
That's what. That's me, yeah.
You know, so all of these kind of like, that's what that is.
(28:26):
OK, yeah, I can see, you know, Iwasn't rolling on the floor
having a tantrum. But, you know, as an adult, I
was, you know, reacting in a different way.
Yeah, and identifying moments when you found it more difficult
to regulate your emotion. And Ash, you know, there's one
(28:47):
thing to feel depression in a private space, but to kind of
have that publicly, you know, opened up for you.
I, I know, I know you personally.
And I also know that given your diagnosis, that would have
carried a level of shame and discomfort for sure.
How did you how did you navigatethat?
(29:10):
I, I became addicted to personaldevelopment.
So that was, that was a good out.
I started, I started doing Bikram yoga and I found that
that was an amazing release. And it was just so just that
the, that exercise, but the meditation and it was kind of
(29:32):
not my first time to do yoga. I actually, you know, used to go
with my mum way back when, like back in the, in the 90s, I
suppose we were, which would have been very forward in
Ireland back then. And the meditation, that would
have been my first time for thatquiet mind, that opportunity to
silence the chatter and focus. So that was one of the tools
(29:57):
that you decided you needed to build on in order to calm your
mind. And I say bounce forward in
terms of that resilience in moments when it felt a bit, you
know, heavy and a way to navigate your way through.
It it's what pulled me out of the the dark.
Yeah, yeah, the dark hole for sure, because I could then see,
(30:21):
you know, yeah, OK. You know, this isn't the end of
your world. This is a learning opportunity.
And I started to then go to seminars, personal development
seminars and. And, and I really got into that
world and I did coaching. That's when I started my
(30:42):
coaching training and I did likeother trainings in that field.
I started looking into neuroscience because I was then
obsessed with the brain and why do we do things and why how do
we do things and. And how can I understand my
brain better in order to drive? Yeah, because.
It was going back to The Apprentice and I was like, why
(31:02):
did I do that? And why why didn't I do that?
And I knew better because, you know, there are moments in our
life that we that we reflect on them.
You know, prior to that I had already failed out of college.
I had, you know, there are many different things, like I went to
college and I studied and I wasted the free education in
Ireland because I studied and like physio, I was wanting to
(31:26):
become a physiotherapist. Right.
And I then failed anatomy five times.
So knowing that, it's like, that's not the career for you.
I should have always gone into business.
My mother said, well, I did wantyou to.
But she was following your lead like a good mother.
Yeah. You can do whatever you want to
(31:47):
be, so you make the decision. So yeah, so, so I did.
And then anyway, I ended up going into business and I got an
apprenticeship. Well, not essentially, but you
know, I, I went into sales and Iloved it, but I, I kind of grew
up in that environment. My parents had a had a retail
furniture store when I was growing up so.
(32:09):
It felt a bit familiar as well potentially and OK, so.
I'm bouncing. Sorry, Laney.
I love that you bounce that that's that's that's the whole
purpose of this podcast. So diagnosis as a result of
probably walking alongside Daniel and sitting in rooms with
(32:29):
him and hearing conversations with the psychologists and the
specialists that resonated for yourself where you thought, oh,
I will help him. But actually this feels a very,
very familiar, not only as a mother, but somebody that's
experiencing this myself. You then decided to, whilst you
were supporting Daniel, walk yourself along the journey.
(32:53):
And I'm assuming, and I'm hearing from you, you had the
power of community around you and behind you to be able to do
that. So you got your diagnosis, then
what? Well, at that time I was, I was
a trainer of NLP neurolinguisticprogrammes.
I was running a company called the Institute of Empowered
(33:16):
Psychology. Like it's so you can't write
this stuff. It's so funny.
And I was running NLP training courses, corporate training
courses, all around communication and obviously
training people to become coaches, executive coaches.
I was doing executive coaching and all as a completely masked,
(33:37):
unaware and neurodivergent individual, but completely
masked in assuming the role. And I think that was always
something that was great for me in, in coaching was to who do I
need to support you in this? You know, so I was able to put
on the coach hat. I was able to put on the trainer
hat. So you're still diagnosis
(33:58):
happens, Ash is aware of what's going on for Ash, but you're
still wearing your mask. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wore the mask for, you know,
when Daniel, Daniel before he started primary school, he got
his official diagnosis because you, you think you can get that
diagnosis before. Then and.
(34:20):
Before 6, I think it is. So when he did and they
explained it all to me and I waslike, come here.
Like, you know, this is this is year 3 of this journey and it's
just, you know, it's too close to me for comfort.
So is it possible? Have you ever done a mother son
diagnosis? Like is that something that we
(34:42):
could do? And they were like, oh, that
actually, you know, I'm like, I'm wondering because of
obviously my interest in neuroscience.
I'm like, I wonder like, what isthe cognitive?
Like what? What, Like could you do all of
the testing that you did on him with me?
Yeah, what what are the similarities between us?
So. So they did.
And it was really intensive. It wasn't just like an hour and
be like, oh, yeah, you've got ADHD.
(35:04):
It was like 6 or 8. It's a very lengthy process,
absolutely. Meetings and like, you know,
multiple hours in each session, all different types of things.
So came back and they're like, we can't believe you've never
been diagnosed with ADHD before.How did that feel for you, Ash?
So we're jumping back a little bit into the diagnosis, but
(35:25):
let's just go there for a moment.
Did you feel I'm I'm not going to put words into your mouth in
that moment when you were affirmed, how did you feel in
your heart? Oh, relief.
Like, I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah. I didn't know that much about
ADHD at that time. I was just like I, you know, had
(35:49):
the assumption you knew enough. Through Daniel though, right?
Like you knew that there was youwere identifying.
Yeah, but we only had autism prior to his diagnosis at that,
got it before school. ADHD hadn't come up before.
So it was only autism and initially for Daniel.
Yeah, right. And then it come.
(36:09):
Through and then the ADHD came through and it was at that point
and I was like, oh, because I was still not really resonating
with the autism, although so much of what was being spoken
about just made sense to me. And then within the testing,
they're like, we, you know, we tested you.
I never know how to say this. And it always kind of sounds
(36:29):
funny when it comes out of my mouth.
And they're like, and we, we didthe, the, the, the like, it's
funny the way it's called the autism for girls testing as
well. And you tested positive for
autism. And that was.
How did you feel? I remember freezing in that
moment and I think everything kind of went, you know, I think
I went the noise in my ears, then my my ears are ringing.
(36:54):
I started like sweating like a cold sweat and I like felt
really like outside of my body. Like in that moment.
I remember just like what, because that was quite surreal
for me and it really did take megood.
They were like, so we would recommend that you go to to a
(37:16):
psychiatrist now because you're not all to to get the further,
you know, diagnosis in that regard.
But I was like, what? What me like really how, what
and it was. Did you feel?
Shame. Or were you shocked?
Or a bit of both. It was more shock and then it
(37:38):
was a whole, and I say this likewe know with the with people
that I coach now. And it was like, it's a whole
rush of emotions and it's like anger and sadness and fear and,
you know, hurt and and and and and, you know, a whole sense of
(37:59):
like, who am I? Because going back in time, I
didn't know that I was masking, but you know, but I was, I was
just assuming, as I say, the role to fit with the situation
because you. Didn't have the language early
on, like you mentioned before, before how important early
diagnosis is, like how fortunatefor Daniel and many other
(38:20):
children to be diagnosed early to have the language and to
understand where they're at. You didn't have that right.
And so that's what you're saying.
Well, who, what, who have I beenall these years?
Because I didn't know I was wearing the multiple masks that
I just put on because I was toldto be tough and I was told to
show up. That would have felt a lot.
(38:41):
So how did you then kind of turnthat shock pain into a way to
deal with it and move forward? Education So I, I stuck my head
into I, I knew at that point that I couldn't continue with
(39:04):
my, my own business, that I, I had to step away from that, that
I, I, I just felt that it wouldn't be authentic to, to to
run, to teach people to become coaches when as, as a non
divergent person in that regard.You were still understanding
yourself. I was still understanding, yeah,
(39:24):
it's so important as a trainer to to be, you know, all to know,
but that in my personal values that's, you know, authenticity
and knowing your stuff is just so important.
And I couldn't. I just felt that I just, that
wasn't. Yeah, completely agree.
Yeah. So, but I had all the tools so
(39:47):
they were never going to go away.
But, and I'm grateful because they all helped me in, I suppose
you could say fast tracking, youknow, all, all of them.
You know, I found such support in personal development, in
neurolinguistic programming and hypnosis in all of the these
different like cognitive behavioural therapy, etcetera
(40:09):
like because it made me feel good.
And I was like, wow, this makes me feel good.
You know, as a as a student coach or as a student in that
regard, you're the, you know, for want of a better word,
you're the patient first before you're the the coach.
So, you know, how is it impacting you?
But then I know that I had had clients who were neurodivergent
(40:34):
and the work that I did with them was fantastic before
knowing that they were, you know, that I was also
neurodivergent and so I just thought, well, I need to
specialise in that area. So you immersed yourself in
education, of course you did andyou then hyper focused on that
in order to understand yourself and has have been grown
(40:56):
supported Daniel through his journey and and yourself and
have come out the other end now.And that's how we met.
And you're now working with someof the biggest brands in the
space space and using your diagnosis as a way to transform
the way that the world sees neurodiversity.
(41:17):
Wow. Wow.
Thank you. Thank you.
That's well, you know what? It comes from embarrassment as
well and shame because when I look back and I think about
before Daniel's diagnosis, before anything, and I say, you
know, I want to make my number one saying should get on a
(41:38):
teacher. You don't know what you don't
know. And I bring that to people
because I always, you know, I'm,you know, I'm grew up in rural
Ireland. You know, we did not know many
things and there were extreme biases that we had, you know,
growing up. And because you think this way,
you, you know, you, you don't gooutside of your comfort zone and
say, you would come to me. You and I were talking and you
(42:00):
would say, oh, you know, this ismy daughter, you know, and she's
autistic. And I would turn to you and say,
Oh my God, I'm so sorry. That must be terrible for you.
And that would have been just kind of like that scripted, not
knowing that I was scripted my life.
But I I did that. I would say something like that
because I would have thought that that was the right thing to
(42:21):
say because I didn't know that your daughter was a genius and
that she had the potential to change the world with everything
that was. And language matters, right?
Language matters so, so much. Ash, thank you so much for
sharing your story. I think there's something sacred
about a conversation where someone speaks their truth, not
(42:44):
just to educate, but like I saidto, you know, to transform.
And I, I always love our conversations together.
This one's felt different because it's been a personal
one. If you're listening and feeling
that emotional sting of recognition with what Ash has
shared with us today, maybe you're remembering the times
(43:04):
when you were told to tone it down.
Or maybe you've spent a lifetimemasking.
Maybe you're not there yet and Asha's story has inspired you to
tap into something that you wantto explore a little bit further.
I want you to hear this from us.Your sensitivity is not a flaw.
(43:24):
Your lived experience is valid and your story deserves to be
heard. And you are not alone.
I believe that a future of near inclusion is more than
awareness. And, and that's why I loved you
sharing your story today, Ash. And, and you know how you've
turned it around in moments of vulnerability where you did feel
(43:45):
pain. And I'm sure that you still feel
that pain today from time to time.
But you've shared with us the skills, the tools, the
understanding of yourself that you've learnt to navigate a
world that is still understanding something that you
live every day. So thank you.
If this episode's moved you, share it, start a conversation.
(44:09):
If you're building a workplace, a family or a future, build it
in a way where people don't haveto hide who they are.
Ash, do you have any final comments?
Yeah, I think you know, Lenny, it is being kind to each other
and it's being kind to yourself first.
Whether you are neurotypical or you're neurodivergent, we are
(44:31):
all neurodiverse. We're all different.
And it's an understanding that it's OK to be different.
Sometimes we can make mistakes around language or our, our
reactions to, to people or situations or things, but it's
OK to backtrack and to say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry about
(44:51):
that or I reacted in this way because of that.
I think if we communicate and weshare and we, we talk about
things and we understand each other, it's, it's a great way to
be able to build more cohesive working environments,
relationships, friendships, and to assume vulnerability and say,
(45:13):
you know, that's my bad. Or, you know, this is how I felt
when you said that. And the more honest and sharing
that we can be, I think the better we will all feel.
I love that. I love that you said that, Ash.
And it's, you're so right. Sometimes people shy away from
the conversation for fear of making it worse when really, if
(45:34):
you ask the individual or you domess it up, but you're really
honest in showing up as a human and you'll get it right.
So I love that you said that andand so on that point.
Until next time, keep showing upas you are and wear your heart
on your sleeve. Thank.
You. Thank you, Laney.
(45:55):
Thank you so much. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced, and so if there's
more thoughts, more stories, more intentions come along.
So the act of how am I leaving it alone is an act of not act,
adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but it then begins to
(46:15):
relax and dissipate. And so rather than being the
person who has to fix it, we've become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind, to relax and settle away itself.
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I I,I I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us, inside us. I've been very interested in
this for a long, long time. Something settles.
Welcome back to Heart on My Sleeve podcast.
Hello, I'm Laney Cassidy, and I'm delighted to host this
(00:41):
podcast today where we talk about what it means to wear your
heart on your sleeve, mental health and neurodiversity as a
power to step into. Today's episode is one I've been
deeply looking forward to. We've talked about what it means
to wear your heart on your sleeve, especially as a
(01:02):
neurodivergent. We will explore that today.
Navigating a world that often expects emotional restraint,
neatness, and conformity. And personally, myself, as
someone with expertise in psychology, I've spent years in
workplaces. And if there's one thing I know
for sure, it's that vulnerability is not a weakness.
(01:23):
It's one of the greatest expressions of emotional
intelligence and courage that wehave.
And yet, for so many neurodiverse people, those
living with ADHD, autism and beyond, that vulnerability has
often been misunderstood and misread.
Today's guest is exceptional andknows this terrain too well.
(01:47):
Ashlyn Smith is Neurodivergent Trainer of the Year, an
internationally recognised neurodiversity consultant,
Stevie Award winner and a 40 Under 40 honoree.
Ash, you're an outspoken advocate for ADHD and autism.
I know that personally, myself, and someone who brings so much
truth, power, and nuance to every room that you enter.
(02:13):
We'll explore lived experience, masking, burnout and advocacy,
and what it takes to turn your pain into purpose.
This conversation is for anyone who's been told that they're too
much and has found the strength to show up with power.
This episode explores lived experiences of late diagnosis,
(02:36):
masking, trauma, grief, and guilt, and the complex courage
it takes to share those truths. It may land hard for some.
Please pause, breathe, and be gentle with yourself.
Let's get into it. Ash.
Welcome. It's so lovely to see you.
(02:58):
Thank you Laney, it's so lovely to be here.
It's so good to have you join this podcast.
We've spent years working together in the corporate space
and I'm just delighted to actually have you Share your
story with us today. So thank you.
It's a different hat that I'm wearing with you and I I'm on
(03:18):
it. So a warm welcome.
Thank you. Well, I'm honoured to be here
and I'm very excited about the chat and to share my story and
to, yeah, to wear my heart on mysleeve today.
Thank you. So as a mother of a twice gifted
neurodivergent child and a late diagnosed woman with autism and
(03:39):
ADHD, before you had any language or clarity, what did
daily survival feel like for you?
That's such a good question, Laney.
You know, you don't know what you don't know.
So throughout my life it was just getting on with it and, you
(04:02):
know, trying to be the the best that you can be in whatever
situation you are in because, well, I suppose to get to that
point you need to go to the start.
So my accent probably gives it away, but I'm from Ireland as
you know, and I grew up in the 80s and 90s in rural Ireland.
(04:25):
So coming from very like, you know, a beautiful community that
was very, very much a very Catholic, very values based,
very, very close community, lotsof family, lots of people around
all the time. The primary school that I went
(04:48):
to, however, was very old schooland there was a lot of corporate
punishment in those. And now I've just returned from
a trip to Ireland. So it's very fresh in my mind
because every time I go back nowwith the understanding of who I
really am, getting my diagnosis and understanding and, and, and,
(05:10):
you know, looking deeper into myself, I go back to my roots
and I think what did I miss to to your point, what did I not
see before or how did I miss it or how was it missed?
And when I think about primary school, it was fight or flight.
I was, we were always in a stateof fear.
(05:34):
And when you're, when you're in a fear based state because you
don't want to be hit with a stick by your teacher or you
don't want to, what's wrong? You want to stay, you know,
doing the right thing, you know,throughout a number of years in
primary school, as you practise that at a young age, because we
know the, the format of years are zero to seven.
(05:58):
And you start to create the habits that you that you then
form for a lifetime. And, and I, I can see now that
those habits were formed then from asking for moving up a
front to be what you thought somebody wanted you to be.
(06:21):
So in the classroom, it was you need to be this, you need to be
quiet. You need to be so that you, you
weren't, you know, putting a foot wrong so that you so that
you didn't get hit. It wasn't that way at home, Of
course, My my parents were, werewonderful.
My mother was very inspiring andshe still is, but she, she was
(06:42):
definitely the type of person who told me that I could be
anything that I wanted to be, that the world is my oyster.
And of course now I see because I'm autistic, you know, you take
everything literally. So I always believed and I
always was then filled with thatsense of self belief.
(07:05):
And I think that I built a, a defence mechanism that when
things didn't work out for me throughout my life and I, we can
get into some stories as we go, I always reverted back to those
words and thought, Oh, well, maybe this is just not the thing
(07:26):
and that. Yeah, interesting.
And, you know, it's so good thatyou had that supportive
environment at home because it sounds like school was tough and
you didn't know why it was toughat the time because you didn't
have the language to understand what was going on.
Can you walk us through a time when masking at school nearly
(07:48):
swallowed you? Can you think about a particular
time at school or a period at school when masking nearly
swallowed you? Or, you know, did you ever feel
erased, even if it was fit from yourself at that time, Ash?
Well, I think probably secondaryschool or or high, we call it
secondary school in Ireland. So moving into high school would
(08:10):
have been now upon reflection, Ican see that because you're the
kind of it's, it's difficult. It's a it's a horrible time in,
in defining who you are. You know what you're about.
And I think I was quite influenced at the time.
Thank God there was no social media back then, but I would
(08:33):
have been influenced by probablythe likes of watching now.
This is going back in time like Clueless the movie by.
I do remember that. American kind of movies or shows
like Clarissa or Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
So, so, so identifying like individuals that kind of stood
(08:55):
out who I would have thought, yeah, maybe like that's who I
want to be like. That's the kind of, you know,
that's the kind of vibe that I would like to take as to who I
am. So I didn't obviously know it at
the time, but it was putting up the mask to be that kind of
popular person. And I think that I felt that if
I was popular, I'd be OK. So trying to do the thing.
(09:20):
So I, I guess essentially and, and in the formation of your
personality and who you are, Laney and you know, are you
like, what is authenticity? Is it because you want to be
something, or is it because it'sinnate within you or do they all
come together? I think, and you know, I would
(09:43):
definitely say that, you know, feeling as though I wanted to be
popular, felt like it would be asafety net for me because I
could be protected. Yeah.
And and I was just about to say that it sounds like it was a
protective barrier for you because you didn't understand
it, but that felt safe at the time, right?
And, and you kind of would then gravitate to that in the
(10:05):
classroom or or even in the schoolyard.
I mean, kids can be cruel, Ash, like they can be still even
today, but back in the 80s and 90s even more so.
What was the experience like amongst your peers?
Being probably a little bit misunderstood or feeling like
you didn't fit in at that time. Yeah, well, I grew up in that in
(10:26):
a, in a family. There were five children in our
family and I had four brothers. So I had no sisters.
I was very close to my mum, but I didn't have that kind of, you
know, that female that you can, that you get that I would have
seen that my brothers had with each other, but my brothers
(10:46):
raised me to be tough. They and I remember, like my mum
just said, when I was at home, they they used to say, well, we
don't want her to be a Sissy when she grows up.
So we want her to be tough and be able to stand up for herself.
So again, going into when I would have heard things like
that, I would have locked in those kind of statements as
(11:09):
matter of fact, OK, I need to betough.
I need to stand up for myself. So these would have been the the
the essences through which I would have, you know, built my
world upon. So quite in the literal sense.
So it's almost like tough exterior.
I've been told I need to be tough and therefore I can't
feel. Yeah, and, and, and, and also I
(11:31):
think, you know, in discovering,you know, my, my nuances within
autism, within ADHD and, and how, you know, how they impact
me or, you know, how they, you know, I supposed to come up for
me because we're all different. As, you know, if you've got one
autistic person, you've met one,because we all have different
(11:55):
nuances and feelings and, and the way that it shows up for us
all, it is very different. But there's a, there's a term of
phrase called alexithymia, whichis kind of not really
understanding the feelings and sensations within yourself and
not really understanding what feelings are or what feelings
(12:17):
you should have. So quite often autistic people
can be deemed to be inappropriate where we could
laugh in a situation where you shouldn't and where you might
cry in a situation that wouldn'tnormally cause one to, to, to
have tears. And, and, and not, you know,
(12:38):
that they're just very basic examples, but you know, it is to
do with the, the bodily sensations as well as to what
like you're actually feeling andwhat that, what that regards.
But in those days, you know, I think the sense of feeling, we
didn't talk about feelings. There was no, you know, there
(12:59):
wasn't. It was tough love and you just
got on with it. If you fell down, you picked
yourself up and you got on with it.
I played a lot of sport. And, you know, again, that just,
you know, it gave me camaraderie.
But also I do remember always feeling quite isolated or, you
(13:20):
know, not so much alone, but, you know, different in that I
was always like playing catch upwith everybody.
I was never like the leader of the pack essentially.
I would always be like when I would go into a room or join a
club or you know, I was always and still I'm very social, but I
would look to the room to see who was the person that people
(13:45):
looked up to, who was the personthat was leading the the rumour
that was engaging everybody. And then unconsciously and
completely within my subconscious mind, I would then
match in mirror their habits, their behaviours, their, their,
you know, what were the things that were making them stand out
(14:07):
to be, to shine in that situation.
And then I would look to, to emulate that within myself
because I would have felt that that was what was accepted in
this group. And that's if I wanted to be
within this group, then that's what I should be.
So it was always a sense of justtalking about masking, putting
(14:29):
on a different mask, being a chameleon.
Ash, that sounds exhausting. That sounds exhausting.
And you know, as a young child, even more exhausting, right?
And so thank you for sharing that, that it wasn't just one
pass like it's I'm hearing you now.
It was several masks that you had to wear.
(14:50):
And pretty quickly, like you said, chameleon adopt, you know,
to whoever it was in the room that you felt you needed to
mould to, if you could go back to your masked self, what would
you say? Oh goodness.
Different, different Times Now than then.
I think I would have been expelled if I was really.
(15:12):
I don't think I would have gotten through school by being
myself in for like at that time,you know?
Let's stick with that, Ash. Why?
Why? Because I, I mentioned before
around, you know, society sometimes individuals with ADHD
and or autism can often feel misunderstood, misheard and and
(15:36):
sometimes punished in society that doesn't understand them.
So why do you think you would have been expelled?
Well, I would be and you know, it has, I suppose as I grew into
more of myself in as an, as an adult, you know, that has come
about. But I would have been a very
(15:56):
challenging student. I would have always been asking
why I would have always, you know, challenged the, the
narrative because I was, you know, just, I just wanted to
know more. I love information if I'm
interested in the topic. If I'm not, I'll completely
(16:17):
switch off. But if it's if it is something
of interest to me, I would, you know, always want more.
And then if it wasn't, I would have been the naughty child in
the classroom. Just, you know, you know, and
like either just gazing out the window inattentively or, you
(16:37):
know, just being disruptive and and disturbing other people or
the students in the classroom. And, and I would have been a
little bit of both of those whenI was falling out of my mask,
you know, because the mask isn'talways like rigid because when
you have to change masks, not that I knew that I was because I
just thought that everybody did that.
(16:59):
That you just became, when you went into different classrooms
for different teachers and you just became the student for that
class, for that teacher. And you, you put on the hat.
And if it was a, a subject that you were really interested in,
Grace you, you know. You excelled and you were hyper
(17:20):
focused and you were on Yeah, with diagnosis came clarity, I'm
sure. And you, you then became a
mother of a beautifully twice gifted neurodivergent child with
diagnosis. So let's just stick with your
diagnosis, Ash, and tell me a little bit around why you sought
diagnosis, how you came to learnwhy you needed to kind of go
(17:45):
through that process and was there anything that you had to
shed or lose during that? That's that's such a great
question and rein me in if I go on a tangent because there are
many different avenues from fromthis question.
Laney. So I guess it begins with
Daniel, my gorgeous son. So when he was 2 1/2, he was in
(18:08):
childcare full time. I went back to work and back to
corporate when he was one and hewas in a gorgeous Steiner
childcare and I guess it was hissecond year he was 2 1/2.
So he he had a lovely teacher who absolutely adored him.
(18:29):
And she pulled me aside one day and she said, Ashling, I don't
want to alarm you and please take this in the best possible
way because I adore Daniel, but I, I have a feeling as though he
might be autistic. Now that was like, oh, OK, Gosh,
I wouldn't have seen it. But then I wasn't around
(18:51):
children and I was never really a children type.
I wasn't, you know, very drawn to children.
I wasn't that type of a, of a, of a person like, and it wasn't
that I just didn't have childrenaround my life.
So I didn't know. Again, I didn't know what I
didn't know. And I immediately thought, Oh
well, if he is autistic, he might be a genius, so how can I
(19:15):
support him in harnessing that? But that was pretty much like
immediately I was like, oh, is he?
God, I wouldn't have thought that, but sure, I don't know.
And. I just stop you there.
So your initial thought or Daniel was that he was going to
be a genius? If only everybody in the world
had that same level of thinking,Ash, and even only if you and
(19:39):
and I want to go back to your thinking around yourself,
because did you apply that to yourself?
Like when you related to identifying as somebody with
neurodiversity, did you say, oh,I might be a genius?
No, I've never thought that. No, but I doubt that you say it
(20:00):
though, Lanie. Perhaps.
No, I'm kidding. I, no, I haven't, but I can see
why I get so hyper focused into different things and that I have
done throughout my life and I can see in, in so many ways how
it's been so beneficial for me. And I think also, you know, I
(20:20):
suppose Fast forward three yearsand I'm on the journey with
Daniel attending and I'm so grateful to live in Australia
because if we lived in Ireland, there would have been no
identification, there would havebeen no diagnosis and there
would have been no support because we have NDIS funding and
(20:41):
we were able to jump into speechtherapy, occupational therapy,
play therapy, psychology. As the years went on, everything
that we needed to support him indeveloping the strategies that I
never had to, to, to support myself.
And I think, you know, it's sometimes the, the crossover
(21:03):
with females who have been diagnosed and, and males and
not, you know, not always and not generalising in any way.
But you know, as women, we, we can be extremely resilient and
very capable of, of, of being chameleons or just reading, you
know, the situations and becoming, as I would have said,
(21:27):
whereas the boys are quite oftenwhy they would have been
identified more was because of their lack of masking at a
younger age and, and, and, and their lack of, of, of ability to
cope now. So going back to like those
formative years of zero to sevenwhere Daniel was getting all of
(21:47):
this support and I'm in the roomwith him and the therapist
seeing, you know, how they're doing things.
I'm like, God, you're remarkable.
And I take my hat off to like these.
Amazing. They're pretty exceptional,
aren't they? Life changing.
Life changing and I'm a huge advocate for early intervention
because if you even have a have a have a whiff of a potential
(22:12):
that your child may be neurodivergent, you know, get,
get into the NDIS, get into therapy immediately to support
them because even if it turns out then that they're not,
they've had this additional support to help them to regulate
emotions, to identify, you know,how to interact and engage in
(22:34):
situations that's authentic to them.
And, and and and that's always been the way, like, I learned a
lot, you know, in becoming a better mother in those therapy
sessions with Daniel. How did you what did you learn
from that? Ash, just going back to what you
learned to become a better mother.
And I'm going to challenge you and say I think you also learn a
(22:56):
lot about yourself. And, and then obviously it took
you on your diagnosis journey. Yeah.
Tell us about that. And that was the thing, they
were the the key points. And I think, you know, going
back to the sense of feeling, understanding feelings or how
you should feel or what feeling you should have in a certain
situation. I understanding how to support
(23:19):
Daniel and regulating his emotions.
Making his beautiful occupational therapist was like
making red and green choices. It's so simple, but for a child,
it's so it's so powerful. You know, when they're like, are
you making a red choice or a green choice and for them to be
able to stop. And so literal for them to
(23:41):
understand and apply it. Yeah.
And then you know, what is the, you know what, what happens if
you make a red choice and how does that make everybody feel
and what our feelings. So identifying them what they
are and what, what it you know of what you should do if you
feel a certain way. So it was being able to have
(24:02):
those, you know, conversations out loud with Daniel and to, to,
to, to build off of each appointment in, in, in bringing
that into our world and, and. And did you take tips away for
yourself, Ash, like going sitting in that room supporting
and I am a mother myself. And you know, as mothers, we are
(24:25):
absolutely unapologetically selfless in the way that we show
up for those beautiful beings. Did you in any moment step out
of the caring for Daniel and supporting him with setting him
up for success to kind of go, oh, wow, that is something that
(24:46):
I could apply for myself too. Like where was the light bulb
for you that you then struck A chord within yourself to say,
this is something that I'm goingto explore too?
Well, yeah, there there were so many moments and and especially
then during COVID, you see, because COVID hit in the middle
(25:07):
of this as well. All right, Yeah.
We one of the things was so I'm going to go back in order to go
forward. I'm crossing over very ADHD.
Completely unmasked. Play Dash.
That's your full self. But 13, I'm, I've been in
Australia for 15 years. So yeah, that's 14 years ago
(25:31):
now. I left Australia to go home to
Ireland to participate in The Apprentice.
The the TV show The Apprentice it was.
I did not know that about yourself.
There you go. So I was something that I always
wanted to do. I loved The Apprentice because
when I lived in Ireland before the, the global, the GFC, the
(25:53):
recession, that I, I was an entrepreneur, I was running a
business and then I lost it in the recession and The Apprentice
was like pretty big on the TV atthe time.
And I always thought, yeah, likethat was that's like the kind of
thing that inspires me, that drives me.
I've always been really inspiredand, you know, coming from a
(26:15):
very working class family, I think there's a lot of that
wanting to make my parents proud.
That was a very important thing for me.
So, you know, if I was successful, I would make them
proud. Now, you know, now I know that
they're just proud anyway because I've turned out to be a
good person. At least, you know, I think so
(26:35):
and they think so. So, but at the time I think
you're you're, you know, striving, which again is the
resilience. And it's the thing that just
kept me pushing through as well,Laney, just that, you know,
bouncing back that that constantthing.
But when I was fired from The Apprentice, I experienced like
(26:55):
extreme depression. And I think it was the first
time in my life that that had happened because it was
mortifying. It would have been the RSD, as
we call it now, rejection sensitive dysphoria,
experiencing in like a huge way and, and just being, you know,
(27:17):
not showing up in the way that Iwould have liked to because it's
reality television and it's, youknow, relatively staged, which I
didn't know because I was. So, you know, what would the
word be as a green or, you know,just not, not aware of the the
(27:40):
nuances of what was actually going on.
And then, you know, looking back, I think hindsight is, is
great and foresight, you know, to, to know, okay, it wasn't
necessarily you, but it was the situation that you were in.
And it's your emotional dysregulation that I, you know,
(28:03):
identify now. So many instances throughout my
life where I had that emotional dysregulation, you know, that
Daniel would have been experiencing in those therapy
sessions. I was experiencing them in
different situations throughout my life that I could say.
That's what. That's me, yeah.
You know, so all of these kind of like, that's what that is.
(28:26):
OK, yeah, I can see, you know, Iwasn't rolling on the floor
having a tantrum. But, you know, as an adult, I
was, you know, reacting in a different way.
Yeah, and identifying moments when you found it more difficult
to regulate your emotion. And Ash, you know, there's one
(28:47):
thing to feel depression in a private space, but to kind of
have that publicly, you know, opened up for you.
I, I know, I know you personally.
And I also know that given your diagnosis, that would have
carried a level of shame and discomfort for sure.
How did you how did you navigatethat?
(29:10):
I, I became addicted to personaldevelopment.
So that was, that was a good out.
I started, I started doing Bikram yoga and I found that
that was an amazing release. And it was just so just that
the, that exercise, but the meditation and it was kind of
(29:32):
not my first time to do yoga. I actually, you know, used to go
with my mum way back when, like back in the, in the 90s, I
suppose we were, which would have been very forward in
Ireland back then. And the meditation, that would
have been my first time for thatquiet mind, that opportunity to
silence the chatter and focus. So that was one of the tools
(29:57):
that you decided you needed to build on in order to calm your
mind. And I say bounce forward in
terms of that resilience in moments when it felt a bit, you
know, heavy and a way to navigate your way through.
It it's what pulled me out of the the dark.
Yeah, yeah, the dark hole for sure, because I could then see,
(30:21):
you know, yeah, OK. You know, this isn't the end of
your world. This is a learning opportunity.
And I started to then go to seminars, personal development
seminars and. And, and I really got into that
world and I did coaching. That's when I started my
(30:42):
coaching training and I did likeother trainings in that field.
I started looking into neuroscience because I was then
obsessed with the brain and why do we do things and why how do
we do things and. And how can I understand my
brain better in order to drive? Yeah, because.
It was going back to The Apprentice and I was like, why
(31:02):
did I do that? And why why didn't I do that?
And I knew better because, you know, there are moments in our
life that we that we reflect on them.
You know, prior to that I had already failed out of college.
I had, you know, there are many different things, like I went to
college and I studied and I wasted the free education in
Ireland because I studied and like physio, I was wanting to
(31:26):
become a physiotherapist. Right.
And I then failed anatomy five times.
So knowing that, it's like, that's not the career for you.
I should have always gone into business.
My mother said, well, I did wantyou to.
But she was following your lead like a good mother.
Yeah. You can do whatever you want to
(31:47):
be, so you make the decision. So yeah, so, so I did.
And then anyway, I ended up going into business and I got an
apprenticeship. Well, not essentially, but you
know, I, I went into sales and Iloved it, but I, I kind of grew
up in that environment. My parents had a had a retail
furniture store when I was growing up so.
(32:09):
It felt a bit familiar as well potentially and OK, so.
I'm bouncing. Sorry, Laney.
I love that you bounce that that's that's that's the whole
purpose of this podcast. So diagnosis as a result of
probably walking alongside Daniel and sitting in rooms with
(32:29):
him and hearing conversations with the psychologists and the
specialists that resonated for yourself where you thought, oh,
I will help him. But actually this feels a very,
very familiar, not only as a mother, but somebody that's
experiencing this myself. You then decided to, whilst you
were supporting Daniel, walk yourself along the journey.
(32:53):
And I'm assuming, and I'm hearing from you, you had the
power of community around you and behind you to be able to do
that. So you got your diagnosis, then
what? Well, at that time I was, I was
a trainer of NLP neurolinguisticprogrammes.
I was running a company called the Institute of Empowered
(33:16):
Psychology. Like it's so you can't write
this stuff. It's so funny.
And I was running NLP training courses, corporate training
courses, all around communication and obviously
training people to become coaches, executive coaches.
I was doing executive coaching and all as a completely masked,
(33:37):
unaware and neurodivergent individual, but completely
masked in assuming the role. And I think that was always
something that was great for me in, in coaching was to who do I
need to support you in this? You know, so I was able to put
on the coach hat. I was able to put on the trainer
hat. So you're still diagnosis
(33:58):
happens, Ash is aware of what's going on for Ash, but you're
still wearing your mask. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wore the mask for, you know,
when Daniel, Daniel before he started primary school, he got
his official diagnosis because you, you think you can get that
diagnosis before. Then and.
(34:20):
Before 6, I think it is. So when he did and they
explained it all to me and I waslike, come here.
Like, you know, this is this is year 3 of this journey and it's
just, you know, it's too close to me for comfort.
So is it possible? Have you ever done a mother son
diagnosis? Like is that something that we
(34:42):
could do? And they were like, oh, that
actually, you know, I'm like, I'm wondering because of
obviously my interest in neuroscience.
I'm like, I wonder like, what isthe cognitive?
Like what? What, Like could you do all of
the testing that you did on him with me?
Yeah, what what are the similarities between us?
So. So they did.
And it was really intensive. It wasn't just like an hour and
be like, oh, yeah, you've got ADHD.
(35:04):
It was like 6 or 8. It's a very lengthy process,
absolutely. Meetings and like, you know,
multiple hours in each session, all different types of things.
So came back and they're like, we can't believe you've never
been diagnosed with ADHD before.How did that feel for you, Ash?
So we're jumping back a little bit into the diagnosis, but
(35:25):
let's just go there for a moment.
Did you feel I'm I'm not going to put words into your mouth in
that moment when you were affirmed, how did you feel in
your heart? Oh, relief.
Like, I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah. I didn't know that much about
ADHD at that time. I was just like I, you know, had
(35:49):
the assumption you knew enough. Through Daniel though, right?
Like you knew that there was youwere identifying.
Yeah, but we only had autism prior to his diagnosis at that,
got it before school. ADHD hadn't come up before.
So it was only autism and initially for Daniel.
Yeah, right. And then it come.
(36:09):
Through and then the ADHD came through and it was at that point
and I was like, oh, because I was still not really resonating
with the autism, although so much of what was being spoken
about just made sense to me. And then within the testing,
they're like, we, you know, we tested you.
I never know how to say this. And it always kind of sounds
(36:29):
funny when it comes out of my mouth.
And they're like, and we, we didthe, the, the, the like, it's
funny the way it's called the autism for girls testing as
well. And you tested positive for
autism. And that was.
How did you feel? I remember freezing in that
moment and I think everything kind of went, you know, I think
I went the noise in my ears, then my my ears are ringing.
(36:54):
I started like sweating like a cold sweat and I like felt
really like outside of my body. Like in that moment.
I remember just like what, because that was quite surreal
for me and it really did take megood.
They were like, so we would recommend that you go to to a
(37:16):
psychiatrist now because you're not all to to get the further,
you know, diagnosis in that regard.
But I was like, what? What me like really how, what
and it was. Did you feel?
Shame. Or were you shocked?
Or a bit of both. It was more shock and then it
(37:38):
was a whole, and I say this likewe know with the with people
that I coach now. And it was like, it's a whole
rush of emotions and it's like anger and sadness and fear and,
you know, hurt and and and and and, you know, a whole sense of
(37:59):
like, who am I? Because going back in time, I
didn't know that I was masking, but you know, but I was, I was
just assuming, as I say, the role to fit with the situation
because you. Didn't have the language early
on, like you mentioned before, before how important early
diagnosis is, like how fortunatefor Daniel and many other
(38:20):
children to be diagnosed early to have the language and to
understand where they're at. You didn't have that right.
And so that's what you're saying.
Well, who, what, who have I beenall these years?
Because I didn't know I was wearing the multiple masks that
I just put on because I was toldto be tough and I was told to
show up. That would have felt a lot.
(38:41):
So how did you then kind of turnthat shock pain into a way to
deal with it and move forward? Education So I, I stuck my head
into I, I knew at that point that I couldn't continue with
(39:04):
my, my own business, that I, I had to step away from that, that
I, I, I just felt that it wouldn't be authentic to, to to
run, to teach people to become coaches when as, as a non
divergent person in that regard.You were still understanding
yourself. I was still understanding, yeah,
(39:24):
it's so important as a trainer to to be, you know, all to know,
but that in my personal values that's, you know, authenticity
and knowing your stuff is just so important.
And I couldn't. I just felt that I just, that
wasn't. Yeah, completely agree.
Yeah. So, but I had all the tools so
(39:47):
they were never going to go away.
But, and I'm grateful because they all helped me in, I suppose
you could say fast tracking, youknow, all, all of them.
You know, I found such support in personal development, in
neurolinguistic programming and hypnosis in all of the these
different like cognitive behavioural therapy, etcetera
(40:09):
like because it made me feel good.
And I was like, wow, this makes me feel good.
You know, as a as a student coach or as a student in that
regard, you're the, you know, for want of a better word,
you're the patient first before you're the the coach.
So, you know, how is it impacting you?
But then I know that I had had clients who were neurodivergent
(40:34):
and the work that I did with them was fantastic before
knowing that they were, you know, that I was also
neurodivergent and so I just thought, well, I need to
specialise in that area. So you immersed yourself in
education, of course you did andyou then hyper focused on that
in order to understand yourself and has have been grown
(40:56):
supported Daniel through his journey and and yourself and
have come out the other end now.And that's how we met.
And you're now working with someof the biggest brands in the
space space and using your diagnosis as a way to transform
the way that the world sees neurodiversity.
(41:17):
Wow. Wow.
Thank you. Thank you.
That's well, you know what? It comes from embarrassment as
well and shame because when I look back and I think about
before Daniel's diagnosis, before anything, and I say, you
know, I want to make my number one saying should get on a
(41:38):
teacher. You don't know what you don't
know. And I bring that to people
because I always, you know, I'm,you know, I'm grew up in rural
Ireland. You know, we did not know many
things and there were extreme biases that we had, you know,
growing up. And because you think this way,
you, you know, you, you don't gooutside of your comfort zone and
say, you would come to me. You and I were talking and you
(42:00):
would say, oh, you know, this ismy daughter, you know, and she's
autistic. And I would turn to you and say,
Oh my God, I'm so sorry. That must be terrible for you.
And that would have been just kind of like that scripted, not
knowing that I was scripted my life.
But I I did that. I would say something like that
because I would have thought that that was the right thing to
(42:21):
say because I didn't know that your daughter was a genius and
that she had the potential to change the world with everything
that was. And language matters, right?
Language matters so, so much. Ash, thank you so much for
sharing your story. I think there's something sacred
about a conversation where someone speaks their truth, not
(42:44):
just to educate, but like I saidto, you know, to transform.
And I, I always love our conversations together.
This one's felt different because it's been a personal
one. If you're listening and feeling
that emotional sting of recognition with what Ash has
shared with us today, maybe you're remembering the times
(43:04):
when you were told to tone it down.
Or maybe you've spent a lifetimemasking.
Maybe you're not there yet and Asha's story has inspired you to
tap into something that you wantto explore a little bit further.
I want you to hear this from us.Your sensitivity is not a flaw.
(43:24):
Your lived experience is valid and your story deserves to be
heard. And you are not alone.
I believe that a future of near inclusion is more than
awareness. And, and that's why I loved you
sharing your story today, Ash. And, and you know how you've
turned it around in moments of vulnerability where you did feel
(43:45):
pain. And I'm sure that you still feel
that pain today from time to time.
But you've shared with us the skills, the tools, the
understanding of yourself that you've learnt to navigate a
world that is still understanding something that you
live every day. So thank you.
If this episode's moved you, share it, start a conversation.
(44:09):
If you're building a workplace, a family or a future, build it
in a way where people don't haveto hide who they are.
Ash, do you have any final comments?
Yeah, I think you know, Lenny, it is being kind to each other
and it's being kind to yourself first.
Whether you are neurotypical or you're neurodivergent, we are
(44:31):
all neurodiverse. We're all different.
And it's an understanding that it's OK to be different.
Sometimes we can make mistakes around language or our, our
reactions to, to people or situations or things, but it's
OK to backtrack and to say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry about
(44:51):
that or I reacted in this way because of that.
I think if we communicate and weshare and we, we talk about
things and we understand each other, it's, it's a great way to
be able to build more cohesive working environments,
relationships, friendships, and to assume vulnerability and say,
(45:13):
you know, that's my bad. Or, you know, this is how I felt
when you said that. And the more honest and sharing
that we can be, I think the better we will all feel.
I love that. I love that you said that, Ash.
And it's, you're so right. Sometimes people shy away from
the conversation for fear of making it worse when really, if
(45:34):
you ask the individual or you domess it up, but you're really
honest in showing up as a human and you'll get it right.
So I love that you said that andand so on that point.
Until next time, keep showing upas you are and wear your heart
on your sleeve. Thank.
You. Thank you, Laney.
(45:55):
Thank you so much. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced, and so if there's
more thoughts, more stories, more intentions come along.
So the act of how am I leaving it alone is an act of not act,
adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but it then begins to
(46:15):
relax and dissipate. And so rather than being the
person who has to fix it, we've become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind, to relax and settle away itself.
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