August 22, 2025 • 53 mins
In this episode, Michaela Overman sits down with Gavin Fingelson - former professional baseball player, father of two, and CEO of Feel the Magic.
Gavin shares his journey of navigating deep personal loss from a young age, the lessons baseball taught him about failure and resilience, and how vulnerability and communication became his anchors.
From growing up in South Africa to representing Australia on the world stage, Gavin reflects on grief, fatherhood, and why giving back is the legacy that matters most.
For additional resources or to donate visit:
https://www.heartonmysleeve.org/
https://www.feelthemagic.org.au/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us inside. US.
I've been very interested in this problem for a long, long
time. Something settles.
Hi, guys, and welcome back to the Heart on My Sleeve podcast.
I am Michaela Overman, Clinical Lead Director for Heart on my
(00:41):
Sleeve, and today I am joined byGavin Finkelson, former
professional baseball player andfather of two.
Thank you so much for joining metoday.
Pleasure. Great to be here.
Thank you. So I like to start these
podcasts, maybe slightly different, to tell me a little
bit about yourself and instead ask questions like what is
(01:06):
something about your personalitythat you wish more people knew
about you? Wow.
Straight off the bat, yeah, I love it.
Yeah, I love it that I'm deep, deeper than I come across,
(01:27):
empathetic and positive. But I think the positivity comes
out of who I am and through my actions.
But I think there's probably notas many people realise how
(01:47):
deeper deeper I am. Person you are yeah, it's a
really beautiful trait to be able to reflect on.
I want people to know that I want people to know that I am
deep. And I guess you've got to be to
say yes to coming on heart of mysleep podcast and wearing your
heart on your sleeve. But I I do think that that is
(02:10):
something that's that's a beautiful thing for people to
hear. I want to be vulnerable with
you. I want to share my deeper side
and I want to hear your deeper side.
Which I, which I do, I don't, I don't cover it.
I think it is important for you to get somebody else to open up.
(02:33):
You need to be vulnerable to them.
Yeah. But yeah, so maybe I do do that
without realising. Yeah.
But it's, Yeah. To be honest and.
And through my, through my life journey, this is who I am you,
(02:56):
I'm going to I'm going to be there for you.
I'm going to connect you. I'm going to help you, I'm going
to give. And if you don't like that, you
know then this I'm not your person.
Not the type of person you want to be friends with.
Yeah. And do you feel like making
those kind of statements? I mean, marrying up, actually
(03:18):
being OK with saying something like that and, and, and
following through and doing it, saying, you know what?
I don't know if you really are my kind of person.
If that's not who you like, how do you feel when you actually
put those boundaries in place? I.
Have no issue with it. Yeah, I have no issue with it.
Yeah, it's, you know, my my history and I'm sure we'll get
(03:39):
there. Is that I, I lost 2 twin
brothers, Mark and Clive when I was when I was 4, when I was, I
was 7. And my mum's always been about
communication and transparency, which is, you know, they, my
parents, I have an elder brotherfour years older than me.
(03:59):
Myself and Mark and Clive would have been four years younger.
For them to lose twins, have another two and still stay as a
family unit is amazing. So you know, we've gone through
that. We can go through anything,
absolutely. We can go through anything.
So a communication thing has been big to me.
(04:20):
Some people that don't want to communicate, I get it, we try
and open up, but you don't try and change people who they are.
So do I have an issue of not being around those people or
letting them know I don't because life's too short.
Life's too short. Yeah, they enjoy it.
There's two ways of looking at anything.
It's other than negative or the positive.
(04:40):
And what do you take from that? Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's a very glass half full optimistic view.
Is this the kind of mindset thatyou've had throughout your life?
Yeah. And do I, and it's funny because
I've had this discussion with mybrother a couple of times, is
have I had that because of the loss of the twins or would I
(05:07):
have always had that? So like an example would be that
my dad never missed my dad was that one father that was at
every practise and a high schoolpractise and no one else was
there. Sometimes the teachers didn't
come, but he was there and it was, you know, leaving the
moment be where your feet are. So, yeah, it's.
(05:28):
Have I always had that? I believe I have for as long as
I can remember. And as life goes on and you meet
new people and different, yeah, totally different people, you
you figure out what, what's yours.
Yeah. And yeah, I think also, you
(05:49):
know, my history. You said baseball.
Baseball's one of those beautiful games that if you
fail, you're deemed to succeed. So it's a you've got to learn
how to adapt, you've got to learn how to take those.
And because tomorrow, today the sun will go down, tomorrow the
sun come up and it'll be a wholenew game and you've got to learn
from it. So I've kind of adapted that
(06:11):
mentality with life every day. I think it's important.
Absolutely. I never thought that baseball
would be a philosophy that wouldhelp me live life better.
Very interesting. You could get through it, but
it's, yeah, baseball's a game. And if you if you succeed 3 out
of 7, three out of 10 times, you're deemed as like one of the
(06:35):
best in the game. Wow.
So 7 out of 10 times you're gonna go back and you've just
failed. And it's like, what am I gonna
do with it? How am I gonna deal with that?
So. So it's really teaching you
resilience, Push through, learn from your failures.
Yeah. Failing is how you grow.
Failing is how you learn. Adjust, Yeah.
Adjust. Adopt.
(06:56):
So don't be a perfectionist and start baseball.
Yeah, you do not be a perfectionist.
Yeah, but IC they don't do. That so I guess it's true what
you're saying. It's hard to kind of understand.
Would I be this person without the big losses that you did
experience because they happenedwhen you were such a young age?
(07:17):
Would you be able to talk us through a little bit losing a
brother when when you're 4 to tostart with?
Yeah, it's I've, I've lived I'll, I'll get to that now,
which might get to it, but I've lived my life that I'm never,
I'm going to regret a decision that I make.
(07:37):
That being said, I'll go back and I can remember parts of
Clive when he was, he had drowned in our pool.
And the one thing that I can remember is my dad holding me at
the hospital and he was laying on the table and he said, do you
want to touch him? And I said no, like I can still
(07:58):
remember that. So I don't at all hold myself.
I should have. But if you if you think back
like, is there anything that youwish you would have had done
differently? Would I have liked to have touch
him or would I like to touch himnow?
Absolutely. Now that that everything else,
(08:22):
how I've lived my life with my with my brother, with my with my
parents have decisions being made because of that, I'm sure.
Did it affect me? I can't watch I, I know when I
get on a plane, I can't watch a family movie because I'm just
(08:43):
like, boom, gone. That that was also part of, you
know, me. I left high school and went to
America for 12 years when I was 17.
Being away from my close family.That's obviously part of it as
(09:05):
well. That that emotional side and not
having that connection. The benefit and the beauty of
baseball is that it's a team sport and, and when you're
playing at a high, you know, you're playing at a high level.
You're, you have your boys, you have you do you, you live
together, you, you eat together.You, you learn how to deal with
(09:25):
different personalities. You know who your people are.
You know where to stay away fromcertain people.
So one thing that that a lot of things baseball has taught me,
but help, what I would say, helpme with my grief is that I'll
always have my team and connection and community around
(09:47):
me. Could I have played?
Would I have been a different person had I played tennis or or
golf? Probably.
Would I? My brother is my mentor, but
he's an intellect. So he got all the brains.
It took him. It took him a lot longer to deal
(10:07):
and process the grief. Yeah, probably.
He had answers when he was 34 to40.
To me, I believe I heard this saying once before.
And I truly believe that we're not here for a time frame.
We're here for a purpose. And I believe that Mark and
Clive have given us purpose now in different things.
(10:32):
And if I do something, do I sit down at the end of the day and
say this was because Mike and Clive?
No, I don't. But I know within who I am as a
person, they're a part of it. Yeah, and that's, I guess
something that is present in so many things today and in your
everyday life. I know it happened when you were
(10:54):
four and seven, as you said, butthey would still be living on in
in you and your brother and yourparents in just many everyday
things. I.
Agree. The person that you are today,
like you said, you're not going to associate every event or
thing that happens for you that's because of them, but you
are who you are. A part of you is because of
(11:17):
those experiences. That ingredient, Yeah.
Yeah, so you were four years oldand your brother drowned in your
swimming pool at home. No, when, when I was four years
old, Mark was born, Mark and Clive were born and Mark had a
hole in the heart. So he was born with a hole in
the heart. Six months he was in hospital.
(11:42):
We have one photo of the four ofus at home.
He came out of hospital for one day to have his shots and then
got pneumonia, went back into hospital and that's when he
passed away. It took me that one photo is my
brother who was eight, me who was 7, Clive, that was six
(12:05):
months. And then there was a baby.
And when I first saw that photo,I was trying to figure out who
that baby was. But because he was so premier
and he hadn't grown, it was Clive's twin brother.
So yeah, there was that was I was four.
(12:27):
And then when so he passed away and you can imagine I, my
parents had my brother and I at home.
They had Clive in one hospital because he was still six months
in Grammy. And they had Mark in another
hospital with open heart surgery.
So they were just running from one place to another to keep it
run together. And then when I was seven, I was
(12:54):
at a baseball tournament. My my uncle came to pick me up
and he had AV dub Combi that youknow, with that didn't have the
front, but the long gear, gear shift.
And I always wanted to like sit next to him back then.
I grew up in South Africa. So back then it was like it
wasn't the safety belt as much as it is here.
(13:19):
And he came to pick me out and Ithought it was kind of weird
that we haven't finished and I want to still play and he's
like, oh, we need to go home. So go home.
And I was sitting in the back seat and he said come and sit up
the front. And I can remember that.
And then I can remember driving up to a house and seeing all the
ambulances. So I was 7 at that point and I
(13:41):
couldn't. And the irony behind it is I
only put two and two together that I've always loved the V dub
zombies and I never knew why it it was like 2 years ago that I
actually put the two and two together, my connection to the V
dub. So yes, I will land up owning
(14:05):
for that reason. So yeah, it was.
And then we immigrated from South Africa when I was 11.
So in South Africa at that point, if you're under 13, you
couldn't go to the cemetery. So my brother and I, yeah, it
(14:26):
was my brother and I didn't go. I went back with my dad for a
week when I was 13 to go and seethe graves.
And you talk about the stars at that point in the cemetery, you
couldn't save any spots. So where Mark was buried, he was
(14:49):
buried. And then it goes to the end, and
it turns around and comes back, and Mark and Clive are facing
each other. And so it's like, yeah.
They're together. Yeah, yeah, they're together.
Yeah. So that's, that's a history of,
of that, yeah. I mean, I don't really
(15:09):
understand why they would have the rule of people under. 13 It
was in the Jewish cemetery so I don't know if it was pre bar
mitzvah that they couldn't or inthe Jewish religion.
Whether they don't feel as if the kids or the parents can
grieve if their kids are there. So it could be a protection
(15:34):
thing. Then who's thinking about the
kids grieving? I mean, you're also losing
somebody so important to you, right?
So. It is, it is.
It's it. You know, in hindsight, we sit
back and talk to my parents now about about that day they were
(15:55):
able to grieve there. Two sons.
Yeah, they've done. They had done such a strong and
good job protecting the other two sons and showing strength.
And so who knows? Yeah, who knows?
It's I've never been back. Yeah.
(16:16):
I haven't been back to South Africa.
I have no inclination to my. I know my brother's been back
and he wrote, he wrote them a letter and read that to him,
which was pretty impressive, theletter.
But yeah, it's I don't need to be there.
I feel as if they with me whenever I need them.
(16:38):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How do you feel if you think
about, I mean, you have two kidsof your own, right?
And it's, it's a layered question, I guess I'll go one
way first. But how do you think, if you
think about a 7 year old, because you had a 7 year old 8
ish 9:00-ish years ago, how do you think it would be for them
(17:03):
to experience losing a sibling and not being able to go to a
funeral, go to their grave, and just the experience in in
general of losing such a vital part of their immediate family?
It is, it is a later question. Well done.
(17:28):
I guess it also depends on how mature that 7 year old is and
the communication from the parents.
But I do think it is important for them to be there and to be
able to communicate. I can't go back and say how
(17:53):
mature I was back then, but withme dealing with kids these days
and whether it's social media orhave a more mature or advanced I
know these days, definitely I think it's it would be important
for them to go. Maybe not on the day of the
(18:13):
funeral though, because I know myself as a as a parent, I
wouldn't want my kids at that point to see me having to grieve
them. Do I communicate now with my
(18:34):
kids about how I felt and, and showing emotion?
100%. I think it's really important
that that kids at at any age learn to communicate, learn to
express what their feelings are.And sometimes they don't know
what their feelings are, but feelings are OK.
And then we don't have to label them.
But like, let tell me how you'refeeling.
(18:56):
So yeah, hopefully that answeredthe first layer.
Well, I guess the the second layer is how did going through
this experience, how did it shape you as a parent?
You know, I'm guessing it would make a lot of parents,
helicopter parents, especially from the drowning experience.
I'm yeah, I'm not even going. To sure, I'll I'll start it with
(19:21):
am I helicopter parent? Absolutely not because I've
learned how to you, you, you've got to find what you're doing.
But one thing I will tell you isthat my kids were never in a
bath if I wasn't sitting on the toilet or sitting right there.
So you can call me a helicopter parent if there was water till I
(19:48):
was confident that they could get out of trouble.
And that being said, 16, like still 16, like anything can
happen. You, you know, you can hit your
head and not do it. So yeah, that from that aspect,
(20:09):
I was definitely a helicopter parent because just like we were
talking about before, you learn from your mistakes.
Not that it was a mistake, but you learn from you learn from
your your things that have happened before.
As a parent I was. I'm extremely hands on.
(20:31):
I want my kids to feel love. I think it's really important
and but also I want them to be able to make their own mistakes
and figure it out. So it's, I think in today's
society as well and maybe generalising that kids are given
(20:53):
everything that they can't actually figure it out when
something goes wrong. So from that aspect, I'm not a
helicopter parent, but I will assist from AI will assist and
I'll help and I'll sit and I'll talk through a situation that's
happened so they can learn from it.
And obviously it depends at whatwhat age group of how many times
(21:16):
we'll go go through it. But yeah.
And your parents with you after the loss did their parenting
shift? Can't remember.
Yeah. So we have spoken a little bit
about it because I have asked that that exact question.
I think they probably can't remember either.
(21:38):
You know, it's 4:00 and 4:00 and4:00.
But they I couldn't have asked and I still can't.
They're both still with us is for better parents.
My dad was the tough love, my mum was the communicator, My dad
coached my brother who played baseball and he was too tough
(22:02):
for Larry, but for me he was great.
He kind of instilled in in who Iwho I was.
I was able to we talk about personality types, I was able to
take in what I wanted and just let the rest go where my brother
would just feel everything and take her to heart and wasn't be
(22:24):
able to able to process and let it go.
So yeah, could I ask for better parents?
No, it's the the yin and the Yang.
My, my dad isn't, he's an M&M inthe sun.
He's an absolute heart of but heart of gold.
And my mum was a communicator. So I I guess I hopefully got the
(22:47):
best of both. Worlds Yep, got the full package
yeah, I guess your your brother was 11 and. 11 and then 1415.
Yeah, yeah. So very different stages in life
and in even in, in memory and inhow the you're cognitively
(23:08):
aware. So it's really hard the amount
of people that we see that have the exact same parents go
through the exact same situations and have vastly
different outcomes. It, it sounds to me like you've
had an incredibly positive outcome from 2 horrific
(23:32):
situations in your life. Are there points in your younger
life or or in your older life where you felt like it took you
down? It felt like, am I going to make
it through this? How?
How can I handle this? There's not because of the boys,
(23:54):
not because of the twins. There was times that I was
travelling, playing in a in a city in St.
Paul, MN. Loved it, but it felt extremely
isolated. And what am I doing here?
And well, I don't like to use the word depression, but when I
(24:15):
sit back now and process it, yeah, shit, I was depressed.
Like I was sitting in the hotel room.
I was hating. And I had this feeling inside my
stomach like, what am I doing here?
I was lost until I got into the baseball field and that was my
like I was a little kid again, you know, I stepped between
those white lines and it's just like the lights are on and we're
(24:36):
good. Any other time.
No, I haven't. I haven't.
Have I have I used it as an internal push?
Probably when you when you just that perfection getting to the
(25:03):
next level, you you get to do it.
You don't got to do it that you know, that one letter, it's a
it's a choice. Yeah.
So would there would there be times that, you know, on the
boy's birthday and I just done something positive, have a
little chat to him? Absolutely.
(25:24):
Like enjoy, you know, enjoy it with them.
But did I ever use as an excuse?Absolutely not.
Absolutely not. Never have, never will.
I'm curious as to why you don't like to use the word depressed.
It's a good question and I'll, I'll go further on that when
(25:49):
you, you know, play professionally.
Got my, got my degree, won a silver medal at the Olympics.
Why should I be depressed? Why should I?
I have so much to live for. I have so much I've I've done,
I've done so much positively. And this is an internal thing.
(26:15):
It's not the word depression is.You've got the choice, you've
got the ability to change it. So why don't you change it?
Hold that mirror up to your faceand go what's causing this
that's causing it? Change it.
You have the ability to change it.
So that's that's my own personalthing.
(26:36):
Do do I understand that people do fall into depression and do
get depressed? Absolutely.
Is it is it a chemical? Is it mechanical?
100% it is. But I'm also a very big believer
that if people communicate earlyand they have people close to
(27:02):
them, there is there are things that can be done to either
minimise it or help help get outof it, whether it's exercise,
whether it's structure or whatever it is.
And that from my standpoint, yeah, as an athlete, it's like,
(27:22):
Yep, OK, feel it, understand it.And I get out and do something
about it. And there was there was one time
that I started a business, my son Rory was two years, two
years old. I was doing 23 hour days because
I wasn't about to let this beat me.
(27:44):
New business, don't want to losemoney.
I know I can make this happen but when Rory was awake I'd
spend time with him and when I had time to go to bed, I'd go to
bed and it took him a long time to go to sleep.
So I'd sit on the floor with himand when that finished I'd go
downstairs. And if you I did that for about
(28:04):
7 months and my mum, I came homethe one day and my mum looked at
me and she goes, Gavin, you're depressed.
And that's all I needed. Close business down for my mum
to tell me that I was depressed I wasn't didn't say it didn't
feel and that's what I'm saying is that did you have the choice
(28:25):
and if you're you're able and you're capable you've got the
choice to to make it now some people need more help with it no
problem people are there to helppeople are there to help and
kind of get you out so. If you've got the right
connections, if you've got the right network, if you've got the
right support. Correct.
And and and that there isn't ever the right one, but being
(28:47):
able to ask for help is and being letting that happen.
It is there you can make a change.
Yeah, yeah. So you feel like you've been
wearing your heart on your sleeve ever since you were a
child. And if you do need it, you speak
it. Yeah, I, I do.
(29:09):
I think many, for many years, I always knew who I was, true to
who I was and knew who I was. But my circle may have been a
little bit smaller. So I was reserved, but talked to
the people that I needed to talkto through my years of travel
and, and doing what I'm doing and knowing that I have a power
(29:34):
to help. I've opened that circle.
I've opened that circle because if I don't like that's, that's
not being true. That's not being true.
And that's where I turn around and say, like, I don't think
about the boys, but the boys. What I'd do today and what I'd
do and impact other people is, you know, that's that's them,
(29:55):
that's because of them. So.
I, when I'm hearing you talk, I feel like there is a small part
of me that's kind of, I don't know, like just a little, like,
hey, hang on, like a little. I wonder if there's any truth in
(30:15):
this with the experiences that you've had with those losses, do
you feel that you put pressure on yourself to, like you just
mentioned before, depressed? Why don't I like to use it or
what have I got to be depressed about?
You know, life is I've seen how fragile it is and I'm alive.
(30:38):
I got to leave they didn't I I have great parents, you know,
I'm a professional baseball player.
I'm I'm achieving What have I got to be depressed about?
It almost sounds like, I guess my question is more, did you
ever give yourself the space to be depressed before?
(31:03):
You said, all right, not not going to let it win out.
You get you shouldn't be depressed.
You've got a great life, which it's a beautiful technique and a
strength to be able to take yourself out of those times.
But I guess I just wonder if youever, it's almost sounds kind of
intuitive, but did you ever let yourself sit in being depressed
(31:23):
and not kind of say, well, you shouldn't be?
No. And when I say no is I didn't, I
didn't need to sit in the depression and go through the
depression. What I, what I did is took
(31:45):
myself out of the situation and the one or two times that it
happened, I was able to do that.So it was a it was a job that I
was doing that no one was dead. What I wasn't helping, what I
thought I was helping, I was, I was chasing something that
(32:08):
wasn't going to be a legacy. Great, let me go and do
something else. Now what do I do?
I trust in who I am and what I am that the next thing that I'm
going to do, I'm going to be successful with it.
So to answer your question, did I sit in the depression?
No, I didn't need to. I was able to see it, visualise
(32:31):
it, trust in my ability and who that.
The next thing that I do, I'm going to be positive.
Yeah, Rather than sitting in it,was there acceptance, I guess it
sounds to me that you put a lot of pressure on yourself around
why should I be? What reason do I have to be
depressed? I guess Did you feel that you
(32:54):
came to a point where you said it's there is no, there is no
stereotypical box of somebody that should have depression or
shouldn't? Did you get to a place where you
felt that it's OK that I have that and I can admit that I have
that, yeah, I'm going to get myself out of it as quick as I
can and not wallow in it and notsit in it wallowing.
It's probably the wrong choice of words for somebody
(33:15):
experiencing depression. But did you ever allow yourself
to say it's OK that I have that?I don't need to have something
horrifically wrong happening forme to be OK with having it.
No, no. But that's not.
What I'm sensing? No, it's because and, and by no
(33:40):
means like, like we spoke out before, do people fall into
depression and, and is it, is itsomething real?
Yes. And I do recognise that for me,
all I needed was my mum to say you're depressed now.
She could have told me you're fat.
(34:02):
And if my mum told me how about what she didn't, she went, she
told me she didn't say that. She's like, she just looked at
me and she said you're a bit porky, which was around the same
time. So like to to me, and I'm sure
to some other athletes or different mindsets, you just
need like, let's call it a tringy, let's just call it a
(34:23):
flag something that was my flag.That was my flag so.
So is your driving force to get out of that depressed state
then? I don't want to be identified as
somebody having depression, no. It wasn't even an identification
and to be labelled that had nothing to do with that because
no one else probably saw it. My mom knows me the best, the
(34:44):
best that it was. So it had nothing to do with
that. And I think we we opened by like
uncomfortable saying like you can't control what people are
going to think or say about you anyway.
So we'll worry about it. So to me it was OK.
Thanks Mum. Is that who I want to be and how
(35:04):
I want to be? No.
OK, let me do something else andchange it.
Yeah, well, I think it's a phenomenal strength to be able
to take such life altering experiences, not only the losses
of your brothers, but also even just finishing professional
Olympic level sport in general. I mean, taking that and being
(35:29):
able to say no, I've got one life and I know how I want to
live it. So I'm going to communicate with
who I need to communicate with and I'm going to make the
changes I need to before this becomes even deeper down and I'm
going to keep living. I think that's an amazing
strength and a mindset that I hope that a lot of people
(35:51):
listening can can take and learnfrom, especially act quick, you
know, when you're starting to notice or having a really
beautiful supportive network that notice for you.
I'm listening. Absolutely.
And combining saying I'm not OK with having people around you
that say you're not OK, I think that is, you know, the recipe to
(36:14):
being able to get yourself out of that smoother without it
becoming a spiralling deep hole.But just touching on finishing
professional sport, that is a transition that a lot of people
find. I mean, the suicide rate for
professional athletes is something that is often spoken
(36:36):
about. How was that transition?
When you have that as a big motivator of I can get through
this, you know, I can, I can, I got to not, I get to how did
that transition then when it was, for lack of better words,
normal life. That's a good question.
I'll preface that that I only stopped playing last year.
(37:01):
Oh. OK.
How are we transitioning? Is.
The question I should ask. It was, it was, it was always a
driving thing for me to my my eldest son plays baseball to be
able to play first grade with him.
So. Oh, that's so nice.
So last year I played first grade with him.
So we'll check back in on the podcast in about 12 months time
(37:22):
then when you've actually transitioned.
Yeah. No, no, but that was, you know,
once a week type thing. But is the transition my son, it
was Kel, my, my eldest was one when I was still playing, I was,
(37:43):
I was still playing for Australia.
It was 2007. So he was, he was born in 2006.
I was playing in the World Cup in Taiwan.
It was the first time that I hadto leave him.
I, I played him. So the Olympics was 2004, still
3. And I played on the national
team for 1212 years. And I flew over to Taiwan and I
(38:04):
played the game like I normally do, same regiment before the
game. But when I went home and had a
shower and the and the team wentout, I didn't need it anymore.
I didn't need it. I want to be a home with my son.
So it was a fairly easy decisionto stop playing professionally
(38:30):
or club. Did I still play?
Yeah, because the camaraderie, the teammates and and I've been
doing it for so long. So my Sundays were still the
whole day of playing, but it wasn't professionally.
And what the way that I looked at it, it's like time for a new
challenge. Let me take and take.
Let me take all the learnings and the mindsets and getting up
(38:52):
in the morning and. And what and my degree when I
was at in America was to help promotion exercise science.
So 2007 I came before that actually 2002 thousand when I
graduated, I came back and I started open up a personal
training business. So to me what that was doing is
(39:14):
that I was still active and I was able to take all the things
that got me over the limit to the next, the psychology behind
getting to that next level and changing other people's lives.
So I've been personal, personal training, I guess you can say
since 2000 and since 2000 in oneaspect or another.
(39:40):
So I'm definitely not a, a trainer there.
Stand there and count for you because I can't.
But it's more the mindset and you achieve in your goals.
So my transition I, I can, I cansay I was lucky, was an easy one
because what I was able to do was take all my learnings and
change your life. Try to show you how to get to
(40:02):
push you to that next allow you to think of do things that you
never could. Yeah, a lot of my some of my
clients who are started with me back then are now extremely
close friends. Now we go on holidays together
because I guess we can say we grew together Yeah.
So that was easier. It was an easier transition for
(40:26):
me because I I was still giving back.
And let's go back to the boys. I always wanted to kind of give
and change people's lives. I don't necessarily agree or
believe in that people that get through big transitions like
that have luck. I think it's a a chosen
mentality, right? And I think probably in some
(40:48):
ways, being raised by parents who so that usually the goal of
this podcast, by the way, is that I make you cry.
But instead talk about children.I think, you know, being raised
by parents who who lost their children would really shape the
mentality that that you have, right?
(41:11):
And I think it's as much as we can say, well, who knows how
they were before you were seven,but they're going to be
different in some way or they'regoing to have highlighted the
hell out of their good qualities, you know, after going
through something like that. And I think having those parents
would have instilled some beautiful messaging in you.
Like you've said, you kind of, you know, wear your heart on
(41:32):
your sleeve from the get go. Always communicate, always speak
about what you're going through.Make sure you turn to your
support network. Don't just keep it in Foster and
and you know, nurture your support network.
Don't let them just go and become nothing.
These are really beautiful techniques and tools that I try
and help people to do all the time in my practise.
(41:55):
And you've kind of been doing them forever.
So switching it to to bigger picture, I mean, one on one
personal training is still bigger picture.
Helping one individual is, you know, a beautiful thing to do.
But in the last year especially,but in the last 10 years, I
would love for you to help the audience understand how you've
(42:19):
truly created meaning from especially the losses of your
siblings when you were younger working with Feel the Magic.
I would love to just hear how that charity helps you, that
helps you. Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. So feel the magic is in a it's
(42:42):
an amazing charity that was founded by Christy Thomas and
James James Thomas. James lost his dad when he was
25 and he lost his mum on his 31st birthday.
So he so and which was actually 2 days ago, his birthday.
So it was a tough day for him and Christy lost her brother to
(43:06):
leukaemia when she was 3. So James and Christy started
Feel the Magic. How it started is that James was
depressed and Christian said we need to go away something needs
to change. So they actually went to
Disneyland. So they went to Disneyland, the
happiest place on earth and theywere on the teacup ride and
(43:27):
James said he looked around and he could see the smile on kids
faces and he wanted to go back and have that feeling.
So what they actually did, they they started Feel the Magic and
what they did is they took fourteen families, they funded
14 families to go to Disneyland.What they found out of that is
(43:49):
it wasn't a trip, it was the connection that these families
had with each other because theyhad gone through shared loss.
So Feel the Magic is it's a charity that supports grieving
kids between the ages 7 to 17. So in, in Australia, there's one
in 20 kids that'll lose a parentbefore they turn 17.
(44:12):
And that's, that doesn't includesibling loss or parental,
parental help. So it's, it's staggering.
There's one kid in every classroom that is isolated.
Friends don't know how to talk to them developmental them
(44:32):
worrying stand on top of that isif those kids don't get the
support, they're six times more likely to die by suicide.
So that's where you feel the magic steps in.
So what what we do is we run free programmes for the
families, for the kids. We have a virtual online
programmes, all psycho education.
(44:55):
We have one day camps at the theparent and the kid or the
grandparent. The the carer will come and work
together, go through some activities.
The first icebreaker we'd do is sponsored by Roses only.
So they put a beco together as afirst real exercise.
(45:15):
I guess you can say that they'veprobably done together since the
loss. And then a lot of times they'll
take that and they'll put that on the grave side so they get to
talk about it. It's about talking about
communicating, understanding thelanguage, understanding what the
feelings, the emotional feelingsare.
And then we run a 2 1/2 day campas well, which is the first time
(45:35):
that these kids will actually beaway from their parent because
obviously as a parent you reallywant to look after.
But the parents are struggling. They may have two kids now,
they've only got 1 income. They're cooking.
It's. So what we do is we have a 2 1/2
day camp. The kids kick and scream.
They don't want to come there. We do.
(45:57):
We, we talk about emotions in, in the four different seasons.
So we teach them about that. We teach them about this
emotional stress, the stress, sowe've given them the tools on
how they can take it away. Then the parents come in for a
parent guardian workshop and understand the language that we
speak, so they can now talk to their kids with it.
But the biggest thing that comesout of Family Day Camp and they
(46:19):
camp Magic is that these kids realise that they're not alone
because nobody else, they, they can't talk.
So the kids are like, oh, I'm something wrong with me and I
can't share this because they don't know.
They now have friends realising that they're not alone.
So there's a lot of community connection coming through that.
So I mentored the very first Camp Magic 10 years ago and I've
(46:44):
always helped them fundraise andalways been apart from a
distance. 18 months ago I had the opportunity to step onto the
board. And then a year ago I stepped in
in the CEO of role. And it is just so powerful, so
(47:05):
powerful the the impact that we made the, the, the connections
that the families we have. We have about 2 1/2 thousand
volunteers that work with the charity, that the charity can't
run without them. And those volunteers that I, I
think the retentions, probably about five to seven years have
(47:28):
they been volunteers? So as soon as you, it's a
certain mindset to be a volunteer, but once you're as
part of this part of the charity, you never want to leave
because you create these connections and you're helping
other people. So have you been selfish?
Absolutely. Is it filling my cup 100%?
(47:48):
I've always had my time for, forkids and I love kids and also I
love parents being able to communicate with kids once
they've got the right tools. And when you see that happen and
you see the life changing, you know, I, I, I say it and I mean
it, that we are making generational change because if
(48:10):
we're not helping these kids now, they're not going to be
able to fulfil their full potential.
And every kid deserves. It absolutely I mean I think
it's one of the biggest driving forces to why I joined the board
with a heart on my sleeve. I think it's so incredibly
important for people to understand the power of sharing
(48:30):
their story. And like you can see they go to
these camps and they hear, oh, wow, that person has experienced
something similar to me. I'm not alone in this.
Even if you just pass that storyon to one other person, it can
change their whole entire life. And I guess going through what
(48:50):
you've been through, it's, it's a, it's an amazing way to pass
on the tools that you did learn from your parents and, and your
sport and your upbringing to other children and help them
hopefully have the opportunity to be down the track and
achieving, living their goals and dreams and, and not having
(49:12):
this incredibly unfortunate event detrimentally shape the
rest of their lives. Correct.
The probably the biggest thing that still gives me chills is
that we have 50 of the campers turn mentors.
So if you we've you can imagine what you did when you were 19 on
a Saturday night. You weren't.
You weren't helping other kids who were at a camp and mentoring
(49:35):
them. Maybe you weren't.
I'm interested. We can unpack that on the next
one. But yeah, it's yeah, it's it's
amazing. Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, and it's like, it sounds like it's a really beautiful
domino effect. Like it's a cycle that just
keeps keeps going, which I thinkis beautiful in in some ways.
(49:57):
Well, on this podcast, we definitely don't talk about, you
know, people's businesses and and things like that.
It is it is about wearing a heart on your sleeve and, and
sharing your emotional experiences.
But the reason why I was really comfortable in in talking about
this, I feel like they they go hand in hand.
You know, the two charities combine to help people of of all
(50:19):
ages hard on my sleeve is is foreverybody.
But I I often feel that with younger people especially, one
of my biggest life goals is to help parents help their kids
learn how to communicate and help parents communicate in the
most effective way possible withtheir kids.
So that we raise generations of children that know what their
(50:42):
emotions are and know how to talk about it and know how to
wear their hat on their sleeve. And what you'll what you'll find
with the kids and listening to our kids talk after they've been
through camps, excuse me, is that kids are resilient.
Kids are. And kids are not shy to talk the
the taboo. And they will give them a
(51:02):
platform, provided we give them a platform.
So it's, yeah. It's powerful.
It's powerful. It's.
And you know, it's why you wake up every morning.
What can you do? Yeah.
Yeah, well, I think that your your brothers would be
exceptionally proud of you. But I also know that your
parents would be so proud of you.
(51:24):
Yeah. They are of both of us, of my
brother and I, and the beauty isthat they communicate that.
Yeah. So we know that.
We feel that and we everyone's. Lucky.
Yeah. Well, I think that you're a
wonderful example of how from childhood to adulthood, what
wearing your heart on your sleeve can do in such a positive
(51:46):
way. And I really hope that people
can take the messaging and and the tools that Gavin speaks
about and be able to utilise that in their own journey.
So thank you so much for joiningme here today.
And I, I will be linking every, all the information fulfil the
magic as well in the show notes because I think it's really
(52:08):
incredibly important. Just on quick side note, Gavin
and I was speaking earlier around the lack of resources
that are available for people that are going through loss,
especially between the ages of seven and 17.
That I, I feel like it's something that we will
definitely be putting on the heart on my sleeve website as
(52:30):
well. Because learning to weigh your
heart on your sleeve and, and speak up about something like
this and then saying where is there any information on this?
You know, I, I feel so alone in it because I can't even find any
information on it. I think that is hugely
confronting for somebody. So I definitely would like to
make that, I guess a stepping stone to make them wearing their
(52:53):
heart on their sleeve even easier.
So I will pop that below. But thank you so much everybody
and I will see you in the next episode.
Thank you. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced.
And so if there's more thoughts,more stories, more intentions to
come along. So the act of how am I leaving
(53:14):
it alone is an act of not act, adding more stories, adding fuel
to it. So it might not go away in 2
minutes, but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix it, we
become the person who makes space for the heart, the mind,
to relax and settle away itself.
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us inside. US.
I've been very interested in this problem for a long, long
time. Something settles.
Hi, guys, and welcome back to the Heart on My Sleeve podcast.
I am Michaela Overman, Clinical Lead Director for Heart on my
(00:41):
Sleeve, and today I am joined byGavin Finkelson, former
professional baseball player andfather of two.
Thank you so much for joining metoday.
Pleasure. Great to be here.
Thank you. So I like to start these
podcasts, maybe slightly different, to tell me a little
bit about yourself and instead ask questions like what is
(01:06):
something about your personalitythat you wish more people knew
about you? Wow.
Straight off the bat, yeah, I love it.
Yeah, I love it that I'm deep, deeper than I come across,
(01:27):
empathetic and positive. But I think the positivity comes
out of who I am and through my actions.
But I think there's probably notas many people realise how
(01:47):
deeper deeper I am. Person you are yeah, it's a
really beautiful trait to be able to reflect on.
I want people to know that I want people to know that I am
deep. And I guess you've got to be to
say yes to coming on heart of mysleep podcast and wearing your
heart on your sleeve. But I I do think that that is
(02:10):
something that's that's a beautiful thing for people to
hear. I want to be vulnerable with
you. I want to share my deeper side
and I want to hear your deeper side.
Which I, which I do, I don't, I don't cover it.
I think it is important for you to get somebody else to open up.
(02:33):
You need to be vulnerable to them.
Yeah. But yeah, so maybe I do do that
without realising. Yeah.
But it's, Yeah. To be honest and.
And through my, through my life journey, this is who I am you,
(02:56):
I'm going to I'm going to be there for you.
I'm going to connect you. I'm going to help you, I'm going
to give. And if you don't like that, you
know then this I'm not your person.
Not the type of person you want to be friends with.
Yeah. And do you feel like making
those kind of statements? I mean, marrying up, actually
(03:18):
being OK with saying something like that and, and, and
following through and doing it, saying, you know what?
I don't know if you really are my kind of person.
If that's not who you like, how do you feel when you actually
put those boundaries in place? I.
Have no issue with it. Yeah, I have no issue with it.
Yeah, it's, you know, my my history and I'm sure we'll get
(03:39):
there. Is that I, I lost 2 twin
brothers, Mark and Clive when I was when I was 4, when I was, I
was 7. And my mum's always been about
communication and transparency, which is, you know, they, my
parents, I have an elder brotherfour years older than me.
(03:59):
Myself and Mark and Clive would have been four years younger.
For them to lose twins, have another two and still stay as a
family unit is amazing. So you know, we've gone through
that. We can go through anything,
absolutely. We can go through anything.
So a communication thing has been big to me.
(04:20):
Some people that don't want to communicate, I get it, we try
and open up, but you don't try and change people who they are.
So do I have an issue of not being around those people or
letting them know I don't because life's too short.
Life's too short. Yeah, they enjoy it.
There's two ways of looking at anything.
It's other than negative or the positive.
(04:40):
And what do you take from that? Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's a very glass half full optimistic view.
Is this the kind of mindset thatyou've had throughout your life?
Yeah. And do I, and it's funny because
I've had this discussion with mybrother a couple of times, is
have I had that because of the loss of the twins or would I
(05:07):
have always had that? So like an example would be that
my dad never missed my dad was that one father that was at
every practise and a high schoolpractise and no one else was
there. Sometimes the teachers didn't
come, but he was there and it was, you know, leaving the
moment be where your feet are. So, yeah, it's.
(05:28):
Have I always had that? I believe I have for as long as
I can remember. And as life goes on and you meet
new people and different, yeah, totally different people, you
you figure out what, what's yours.
Yeah. And yeah, I think also, you
(05:49):
know, my history. You said baseball.
Baseball's one of those beautiful games that if you
fail, you're deemed to succeed. So it's a you've got to learn
how to adapt, you've got to learn how to take those.
And because tomorrow, today the sun will go down, tomorrow the
sun come up and it'll be a wholenew game and you've got to learn
from it. So I've kind of adapted that
(06:11):
mentality with life every day. I think it's important.
Absolutely. I never thought that baseball
would be a philosophy that wouldhelp me live life better.
Very interesting. You could get through it, but
it's, yeah, baseball's a game. And if you if you succeed 3 out
of 7, three out of 10 times, you're deemed as like one of the
(06:35):
best in the game. Wow.
So 7 out of 10 times you're gonna go back and you've just
failed. And it's like, what am I gonna
do with it? How am I gonna deal with that?
So. So it's really teaching you
resilience, Push through, learn from your failures.
Yeah. Failing is how you grow.
Failing is how you learn. Adjust, Yeah.
Adjust. Adopt.
(06:56):
So don't be a perfectionist and start baseball.
Yeah, you do not be a perfectionist.
Yeah, but IC they don't do. That so I guess it's true what
you're saying. It's hard to kind of understand.
Would I be this person without the big losses that you did
experience because they happenedwhen you were such a young age?
(07:17):
Would you be able to talk us through a little bit losing a
brother when when you're 4 to tostart with?
Yeah, it's I've, I've lived I'll, I'll get to that now,
which might get to it, but I've lived my life that I'm never,
I'm going to regret a decision that I make.
(07:37):
That being said, I'll go back and I can remember parts of
Clive when he was, he had drowned in our pool.
And the one thing that I can remember is my dad holding me at
the hospital and he was laying on the table and he said, do you
want to touch him? And I said no, like I can still
(07:58):
remember that. So I don't at all hold myself.
I should have. But if you if you think back
like, is there anything that youwish you would have had done
differently? Would I have liked to have touch
him or would I like to touch himnow?
Absolutely. Now that that everything else,
(08:22):
how I've lived my life with my with my brother, with my with my
parents have decisions being made because of that, I'm sure.
Did it affect me? I can't watch I, I know when I
get on a plane, I can't watch a family movie because I'm just
(08:43):
like, boom, gone. That that was also part of, you
know, me. I left high school and went to
America for 12 years when I was 17.
Being away from my close family.That's obviously part of it as
(09:05):
well. That that emotional side and not
having that connection. The benefit and the beauty of
baseball is that it's a team sport and, and when you're
playing at a high, you know, you're playing at a high level.
You're, you have your boys, you have you do you, you live
together, you, you eat together.You, you learn how to deal with
(09:25):
different personalities. You know who your people are.
You know where to stay away fromcertain people.
So one thing that that a lot of things baseball has taught me,
but help, what I would say, helpme with my grief is that I'll
always have my team and connection and community around
(09:47):
me. Could I have played?
Would I have been a different person had I played tennis or or
golf? Probably.
Would I? My brother is my mentor, but
he's an intellect. So he got all the brains.
It took him. It took him a lot longer to deal
(10:07):
and process the grief. Yeah, probably.
He had answers when he was 34 to40.
To me, I believe I heard this saying once before.
And I truly believe that we're not here for a time frame.
We're here for a purpose. And I believe that Mark and
Clive have given us purpose now in different things.
(10:32):
And if I do something, do I sit down at the end of the day and
say this was because Mike and Clive?
No, I don't. But I know within who I am as a
person, they're a part of it. Yeah, and that's, I guess
something that is present in so many things today and in your
everyday life. I know it happened when you were
(10:54):
four and seven, as you said, butthey would still be living on in
in you and your brother and yourparents in just many everyday
things. I.
Agree. The person that you are today,
like you said, you're not going to associate every event or
thing that happens for you that's because of them, but you
are who you are. A part of you is because of
(11:17):
those experiences. That ingredient, Yeah.
Yeah, so you were four years oldand your brother drowned in your
swimming pool at home. No, when, when I was four years
old, Mark was born, Mark and Clive were born and Mark had a
hole in the heart. So he was born with a hole in
the heart. Six months he was in hospital.
(11:42):
We have one photo of the four ofus at home.
He came out of hospital for one day to have his shots and then
got pneumonia, went back into hospital and that's when he
passed away. It took me that one photo is my
brother who was eight, me who was 7, Clive, that was six
(12:05):
months. And then there was a baby.
And when I first saw that photo,I was trying to figure out who
that baby was. But because he was so premier
and he hadn't grown, it was Clive's twin brother.
So yeah, there was that was I was four.
(12:27):
And then when so he passed away and you can imagine I, my
parents had my brother and I at home.
They had Clive in one hospital because he was still six months
in Grammy. And they had Mark in another
hospital with open heart surgery.
So they were just running from one place to another to keep it
run together. And then when I was seven, I was
(12:54):
at a baseball tournament. My my uncle came to pick me up
and he had AV dub Combi that youknow, with that didn't have the
front, but the long gear, gear shift.
And I always wanted to like sit next to him back then.
I grew up in South Africa. So back then it was like it
wasn't the safety belt as much as it is here.
(13:19):
And he came to pick me out and Ithought it was kind of weird
that we haven't finished and I want to still play and he's
like, oh, we need to go home. So go home.
And I was sitting in the back seat and he said come and sit up
the front. And I can remember that.
And then I can remember driving up to a house and seeing all the
ambulances. So I was 7 at that point and I
(13:41):
couldn't. And the irony behind it is I
only put two and two together that I've always loved the V dub
zombies and I never knew why it it was like 2 years ago that I
actually put the two and two together, my connection to the V
dub. So yes, I will land up owning
(14:05):
for that reason. So yeah, it was.
And then we immigrated from South Africa when I was 11.
So in South Africa at that point, if you're under 13, you
couldn't go to the cemetery. So my brother and I, yeah, it
(14:26):
was my brother and I didn't go. I went back with my dad for a
week when I was 13 to go and seethe graves.
And you talk about the stars at that point in the cemetery, you
couldn't save any spots. So where Mark was buried, he was
(14:49):
buried. And then it goes to the end, and
it turns around and comes back, and Mark and Clive are facing
each other. And so it's like, yeah.
They're together. Yeah, yeah, they're together.
Yeah. So that's, that's a history of,
of that, yeah. I mean, I don't really
(15:09):
understand why they would have the rule of people under. 13 It
was in the Jewish cemetery so I don't know if it was pre bar
mitzvah that they couldn't or inthe Jewish religion.
Whether they don't feel as if the kids or the parents can
grieve if their kids are there. So it could be a protection
(15:34):
thing. Then who's thinking about the
kids grieving? I mean, you're also losing
somebody so important to you, right?
So. It is, it is.
It's it. You know, in hindsight, we sit
back and talk to my parents now about about that day they were
(15:55):
able to grieve there. Two sons.
Yeah, they've done. They had done such a strong and
good job protecting the other two sons and showing strength.
And so who knows? Yeah, who knows?
It's I've never been back. Yeah.
(16:16):
I haven't been back to South Africa.
I have no inclination to my. I know my brother's been back
and he wrote, he wrote them a letter and read that to him,
which was pretty impressive, theletter.
But yeah, it's I don't need to be there.
I feel as if they with me whenever I need them.
(16:38):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How do you feel if you think
about, I mean, you have two kidsof your own, right?
And it's, it's a layered question, I guess I'll go one
way first. But how do you think, if you
think about a 7 year old, because you had a 7 year old 8
ish 9:00-ish years ago, how do you think it would be for them
(17:03):
to experience losing a sibling and not being able to go to a
funeral, go to their grave, and just the experience in in
general of losing such a vital part of their immediate family?
It is, it is a later question. Well done.
(17:28):
I guess it also depends on how mature that 7 year old is and
the communication from the parents.
But I do think it is important for them to be there and to be
able to communicate. I can't go back and say how
(17:53):
mature I was back then, but withme dealing with kids these days
and whether it's social media orhave a more mature or advanced I
know these days, definitely I think it's it would be important
for them to go. Maybe not on the day of the
(18:13):
funeral though, because I know myself as a as a parent, I
wouldn't want my kids at that point to see me having to grieve
them. Do I communicate now with my
(18:34):
kids about how I felt and, and showing emotion?
100%. I think it's really important
that that kids at at any age learn to communicate, learn to
express what their feelings are.And sometimes they don't know
what their feelings are, but feelings are OK.
And then we don't have to label them.
But like, let tell me how you'refeeling.
(18:56):
So yeah, hopefully that answeredthe first layer.
Well, I guess the the second layer is how did going through
this experience, how did it shape you as a parent?
You know, I'm guessing it would make a lot of parents,
helicopter parents, especially from the drowning experience.
I'm yeah, I'm not even going. To sure, I'll I'll start it with
(19:21):
am I helicopter parent? Absolutely not because I've
learned how to you, you, you've got to find what you're doing.
But one thing I will tell you isthat my kids were never in a
bath if I wasn't sitting on the toilet or sitting right there.
So you can call me a helicopter parent if there was water till I
(19:48):
was confident that they could get out of trouble.
And that being said, 16, like still 16, like anything can
happen. You, you know, you can hit your
head and not do it. So yeah, that from that aspect,
(20:09):
I was definitely a helicopter parent because just like we were
talking about before, you learn from your mistakes.
Not that it was a mistake, but you learn from you learn from
your your things that have happened before.
As a parent I was. I'm extremely hands on.
(20:31):
I want my kids to feel love. I think it's really important
and but also I want them to be able to make their own mistakes
and figure it out. So it's, I think in today's
society as well and maybe generalising that kids are given
(20:53):
everything that they can't actually figure it out when
something goes wrong. So from that aspect, I'm not a
helicopter parent, but I will assist from AI will assist and
I'll help and I'll sit and I'll talk through a situation that's
happened so they can learn from it.
And obviously it depends at whatwhat age group of how many times
(21:16):
we'll go go through it. But yeah.
And your parents with you after the loss did their parenting
shift? Can't remember.
Yeah. So we have spoken a little bit
about it because I have asked that that exact question.
I think they probably can't remember either.
(21:38):
You know, it's 4:00 and 4:00 and4:00.
But they I couldn't have asked and I still can't.
They're both still with us is for better parents.
My dad was the tough love, my mum was the communicator, My dad
coached my brother who played baseball and he was too tough
(22:02):
for Larry, but for me he was great.
He kind of instilled in in who Iwho I was.
I was able to we talk about personality types, I was able to
take in what I wanted and just let the rest go where my brother
would just feel everything and take her to heart and wasn't be
(22:24):
able to able to process and let it go.
So yeah, could I ask for better parents?
No, it's the the yin and the Yang.
My, my dad isn't, he's an M&M inthe sun.
He's an absolute heart of but heart of gold.
And my mum was a communicator. So I I guess I hopefully got the
(22:47):
best of both. Worlds Yep, got the full package
yeah, I guess your your brother was 11 and. 11 and then 1415.
Yeah, yeah. So very different stages in life
and in even in, in memory and inhow the you're cognitively
(23:08):
aware. So it's really hard the amount
of people that we see that have the exact same parents go
through the exact same situations and have vastly
different outcomes. It, it sounds to me like you've
had an incredibly positive outcome from 2 horrific
(23:32):
situations in your life. Are there points in your younger
life or or in your older life where you felt like it took you
down? It felt like, am I going to make
it through this? How?
How can I handle this? There's not because of the boys,
(23:54):
not because of the twins. There was times that I was
travelling, playing in a in a city in St.
Paul, MN. Loved it, but it felt extremely
isolated. And what am I doing here?
And well, I don't like to use the word depression, but when I
(24:15):
sit back now and process it, yeah, shit, I was depressed.
Like I was sitting in the hotel room.
I was hating. And I had this feeling inside my
stomach like, what am I doing here?
I was lost until I got into the baseball field and that was my
like I was a little kid again, you know, I stepped between
those white lines and it's just like the lights are on and we're
(24:36):
good. Any other time.
No, I haven't. I haven't.
Have I have I used it as an internal push?
Probably when you when you just that perfection getting to the
(25:03):
next level, you you get to do it.
You don't got to do it that you know, that one letter, it's a
it's a choice. Yeah.
So would there would there be times that, you know, on the
boy's birthday and I just done something positive, have a
little chat to him? Absolutely.
(25:24):
Like enjoy, you know, enjoy it with them.
But did I ever use as an excuse?Absolutely not.
Absolutely not. Never have, never will.
I'm curious as to why you don't like to use the word depressed.
It's a good question and I'll, I'll go further on that when
(25:49):
you, you know, play professionally.
Got my, got my degree, won a silver medal at the Olympics.
Why should I be depressed? Why should I?
I have so much to live for. I have so much I've I've done,
I've done so much positively. And this is an internal thing.
(26:15):
It's not the word depression is.You've got the choice, you've
got the ability to change it. So why don't you change it?
Hold that mirror up to your faceand go what's causing this
that's causing it? Change it.
You have the ability to change it.
So that's that's my own personalthing.
(26:36):
Do do I understand that people do fall into depression and do
get depressed? Absolutely.
Is it is it a chemical? Is it mechanical?
100% it is. But I'm also a very big believer
that if people communicate earlyand they have people close to
(27:02):
them, there is there are things that can be done to either
minimise it or help help get outof it, whether it's exercise,
whether it's structure or whatever it is.
And that from my standpoint, yeah, as an athlete, it's like,
(27:22):
Yep, OK, feel it, understand it.And I get out and do something
about it. And there was there was one time
that I started a business, my son Rory was two years, two
years old. I was doing 23 hour days because
I wasn't about to let this beat me.
(27:44):
New business, don't want to losemoney.
I know I can make this happen but when Rory was awake I'd
spend time with him and when I had time to go to bed, I'd go to
bed and it took him a long time to go to sleep.
So I'd sit on the floor with himand when that finished I'd go
downstairs. And if you I did that for about
(28:04):
7 months and my mum, I came homethe one day and my mum looked at
me and she goes, Gavin, you're depressed.
And that's all I needed. Close business down for my mum
to tell me that I was depressed I wasn't didn't say it didn't
feel and that's what I'm saying is that did you have the choice
(28:25):
and if you're you're able and you're capable you've got the
choice to to make it now some people need more help with it no
problem people are there to helppeople are there to help and
kind of get you out so. If you've got the right
connections, if you've got the right network, if you've got the
right support. Correct.
And and and that there isn't ever the right one, but being
(28:47):
able to ask for help is and being letting that happen.
It is there you can make a change.
Yeah, yeah. So you feel like you've been
wearing your heart on your sleeve ever since you were a
child. And if you do need it, you speak
it. Yeah, I, I do.
(29:09):
I think many, for many years, I always knew who I was, true to
who I was and knew who I was. But my circle may have been a
little bit smaller. So I was reserved, but talked to
the people that I needed to talkto through my years of travel
and, and doing what I'm doing and knowing that I have a power
(29:34):
to help. I've opened that circle.
I've opened that circle because if I don't like that's, that's
not being true. That's not being true.
And that's where I turn around and say, like, I don't think
about the boys, but the boys. What I'd do today and what I'd
do and impact other people is, you know, that's that's them,
(29:55):
that's because of them. So.
I, when I'm hearing you talk, I feel like there is a small part
of me that's kind of, I don't know, like just a little, like,
hey, hang on, like a little. I wonder if there's any truth in
(30:15):
this with the experiences that you've had with those losses, do
you feel that you put pressure on yourself to, like you just
mentioned before, depressed? Why don't I like to use it or
what have I got to be depressed about?
You know, life is I've seen how fragile it is and I'm alive.
(30:38):
I got to leave they didn't I I have great parents, you know,
I'm a professional baseball player.
I'm I'm achieving What have I got to be depressed about?
It almost sounds like, I guess my question is more, did you
ever give yourself the space to be depressed before?
(31:03):
You said, all right, not not going to let it win out.
You get you shouldn't be depressed.
You've got a great life, which it's a beautiful technique and a
strength to be able to take yourself out of those times.
But I guess I just wonder if youever, it's almost sounds kind of
intuitive, but did you ever let yourself sit in being depressed
(31:23):
and not kind of say, well, you shouldn't be?
No. And when I say no is I didn't, I
didn't need to sit in the depression and go through the
depression. What I, what I did is took
(31:45):
myself out of the situation and the one or two times that it
happened, I was able to do that.So it was a it was a job that I
was doing that no one was dead. What I wasn't helping, what I
thought I was helping, I was, I was chasing something that
(32:08):
wasn't going to be a legacy. Great, let me go and do
something else. Now what do I do?
I trust in who I am and what I am that the next thing that I'm
going to do, I'm going to be successful with it.
So to answer your question, did I sit in the depression?
No, I didn't need to. I was able to see it, visualise
(32:31):
it, trust in my ability and who that.
The next thing that I do, I'm going to be positive.
Yeah, Rather than sitting in it,was there acceptance, I guess it
sounds to me that you put a lot of pressure on yourself around
why should I be? What reason do I have to be
depressed? I guess Did you feel that you
(32:54):
came to a point where you said it's there is no, there is no
stereotypical box of somebody that should have depression or
shouldn't? Did you get to a place where you
felt that it's OK that I have that and I can admit that I have
that, yeah, I'm going to get myself out of it as quick as I
can and not wallow in it and notsit in it wallowing.
It's probably the wrong choice of words for somebody
(33:15):
experiencing depression. But did you ever allow yourself
to say it's OK that I have that?I don't need to have something
horrifically wrong happening forme to be OK with having it.
No, no. But that's not.
What I'm sensing? No, it's because and, and by no
(33:40):
means like, like we spoke out before, do people fall into
depression and, and is it, is itsomething real?
Yes. And I do recognise that for me,
all I needed was my mum to say you're depressed now.
She could have told me you're fat.
(34:02):
And if my mum told me how about what she didn't, she went, she
told me she didn't say that. She's like, she just looked at
me and she said you're a bit porky, which was around the same
time. So like to to me, and I'm sure
to some other athletes or different mindsets, you just
need like, let's call it a tringy, let's just call it a
(34:23):
flag something that was my flag.That was my flag so.
So is your driving force to get out of that depressed state
then? I don't want to be identified as
somebody having depression, no. It wasn't even an identification
and to be labelled that had nothing to do with that because
no one else probably saw it. My mom knows me the best, the
(34:44):
best that it was. So it had nothing to do with
that. And I think we we opened by like
uncomfortable saying like you can't control what people are
going to think or say about you anyway.
So we'll worry about it. So to me it was OK.
Thanks Mum. Is that who I want to be and how
(35:04):
I want to be? No.
OK, let me do something else andchange it.
Yeah, well, I think it's a phenomenal strength to be able
to take such life altering experiences, not only the losses
of your brothers, but also even just finishing professional
Olympic level sport in general. I mean, taking that and being
(35:29):
able to say no, I've got one life and I know how I want to
live it. So I'm going to communicate with
who I need to communicate with and I'm going to make the
changes I need to before this becomes even deeper down and I'm
going to keep living. I think that's an amazing
strength and a mindset that I hope that a lot of people
(35:51):
listening can can take and learnfrom, especially act quick, you
know, when you're starting to notice or having a really
beautiful supportive network that notice for you.
I'm listening. Absolutely.
And combining saying I'm not OK with having people around you
that say you're not OK, I think that is, you know, the recipe to
(36:14):
being able to get yourself out of that smoother without it
becoming a spiralling deep hole.But just touching on finishing
professional sport, that is a transition that a lot of people
find. I mean, the suicide rate for
professional athletes is something that is often spoken
(36:36):
about. How was that transition?
When you have that as a big motivator of I can get through
this, you know, I can, I can, I got to not, I get to how did
that transition then when it was, for lack of better words,
normal life. That's a good question.
I'll preface that that I only stopped playing last year.
(37:01):
Oh. OK.
How are we transitioning? Is.
The question I should ask. It was, it was, it was always a
driving thing for me to my my eldest son plays baseball to be
able to play first grade with him.
So. Oh, that's so nice.
So last year I played first grade with him.
So we'll check back in on the podcast in about 12 months time
(37:22):
then when you've actually transitioned.
Yeah. No, no, but that was, you know,
once a week type thing. But is the transition my son, it
was Kel, my, my eldest was one when I was still playing, I was,
(37:43):
I was still playing for Australia.
It was 2007. So he was, he was born in 2006.
I was playing in the World Cup in Taiwan.
It was the first time that I hadto leave him.
I, I played him. So the Olympics was 2004, still
3. And I played on the national
team for 1212 years. And I flew over to Taiwan and I
(38:04):
played the game like I normally do, same regiment before the
game. But when I went home and had a
shower and the and the team wentout, I didn't need it anymore.
I didn't need it. I want to be a home with my son.
So it was a fairly easy decisionto stop playing professionally
(38:30):
or club. Did I still play?
Yeah, because the camaraderie, the teammates and and I've been
doing it for so long. So my Sundays were still the
whole day of playing, but it wasn't professionally.
And what the way that I looked at it, it's like time for a new
challenge. Let me take and take.
Let me take all the learnings and the mindsets and getting up
(38:52):
in the morning and. And what and my degree when I
was at in America was to help promotion exercise science.
So 2007 I came before that actually 2002 thousand when I
graduated, I came back and I started open up a personal
training business. So to me what that was doing is
(39:14):
that I was still active and I was able to take all the things
that got me over the limit to the next, the psychology behind
getting to that next level and changing other people's lives.
So I've been personal, personal training, I guess you can say
since 2000 and since 2000 in oneaspect or another.
(39:40):
So I'm definitely not a, a trainer there.
Stand there and count for you because I can't.
But it's more the mindset and you achieve in your goals.
So my transition I, I can, I cansay I was lucky, was an easy one
because what I was able to do was take all my learnings and
change your life. Try to show you how to get to
(40:02):
push you to that next allow you to think of do things that you
never could. Yeah, a lot of my some of my
clients who are started with me back then are now extremely
close friends. Now we go on holidays together
because I guess we can say we grew together Yeah.
So that was easier. It was an easier transition for
(40:26):
me because I I was still giving back.
And let's go back to the boys. I always wanted to kind of give
and change people's lives. I don't necessarily agree or
believe in that people that get through big transitions like
that have luck. I think it's a a chosen
mentality, right? And I think probably in some
(40:48):
ways, being raised by parents who so that usually the goal of
this podcast, by the way, is that I make you cry.
But instead talk about children.I think, you know, being raised
by parents who who lost their children would really shape the
mentality that that you have, right?
(41:11):
And I think it's as much as we can say, well, who knows how
they were before you were seven,but they're going to be
different in some way or they'regoing to have highlighted the
hell out of their good qualities, you know, after going
through something like that. And I think having those parents
would have instilled some beautiful messaging in you.
Like you've said, you kind of, you know, wear your heart on
(41:32):
your sleeve from the get go. Always communicate, always speak
about what you're going through.Make sure you turn to your
support network. Don't just keep it in Foster and
and you know, nurture your support network.
Don't let them just go and become nothing.
These are really beautiful techniques and tools that I try
and help people to do all the time in my practise.
(41:55):
And you've kind of been doing them forever.
So switching it to to bigger picture, I mean, one on one
personal training is still bigger picture.
Helping one individual is, you know, a beautiful thing to do.
But in the last year especially,but in the last 10 years, I
would love for you to help the audience understand how you've
(42:19):
truly created meaning from especially the losses of your
siblings when you were younger working with Feel the Magic.
I would love to just hear how that charity helps you, that
helps you. Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. So feel the magic is in a it's
(42:42):
an amazing charity that was founded by Christy Thomas and
James James Thomas. James lost his dad when he was
25 and he lost his mum on his 31st birthday.
So he so and which was actually 2 days ago, his birthday.
So it was a tough day for him and Christy lost her brother to
(43:06):
leukaemia when she was 3. So James and Christy started
Feel the Magic. How it started is that James was
depressed and Christian said we need to go away something needs
to change. So they actually went to
Disneyland. So they went to Disneyland, the
happiest place on earth and theywere on the teacup ride and
(43:27):
James said he looked around and he could see the smile on kids
faces and he wanted to go back and have that feeling.
So what they actually did, they they started Feel the Magic and
what they did is they took fourteen families, they funded
14 families to go to Disneyland.What they found out of that is
(43:49):
it wasn't a trip, it was the connection that these families
had with each other because theyhad gone through shared loss.
So Feel the Magic is it's a charity that supports grieving
kids between the ages 7 to 17. So in, in Australia, there's one
in 20 kids that'll lose a parentbefore they turn 17.
(44:12):
And that's, that doesn't includesibling loss or parental,
parental help. So it's, it's staggering.
There's one kid in every classroom that is isolated.
Friends don't know how to talk to them developmental them
(44:32):
worrying stand on top of that isif those kids don't get the
support, they're six times more likely to die by suicide.
So that's where you feel the magic steps in.
So what what we do is we run free programmes for the
families, for the kids. We have a virtual online
programmes, all psycho education.
(44:55):
We have one day camps at the theparent and the kid or the
grandparent. The the carer will come and work
together, go through some activities.
The first icebreaker we'd do is sponsored by Roses only.
So they put a beco together as afirst real exercise.
(45:15):
I guess you can say that they'veprobably done together since the
loss. And then a lot of times they'll
take that and they'll put that on the grave side so they get to
talk about it. It's about talking about
communicating, understanding thelanguage, understanding what the
feelings, the emotional feelingsare.
And then we run a 2 1/2 day campas well, which is the first time
(45:35):
that these kids will actually beaway from their parent because
obviously as a parent you reallywant to look after.
But the parents are struggling. They may have two kids now,
they've only got 1 income. They're cooking.
It's. So what we do is we have a 2 1/2
day camp. The kids kick and scream.
They don't want to come there. We do.
(45:57):
We, we talk about emotions in, in the four different seasons.
So we teach them about that. We teach them about this
emotional stress, the stress, sowe've given them the tools on
how they can take it away. Then the parents come in for a
parent guardian workshop and understand the language that we
speak, so they can now talk to their kids with it.
But the biggest thing that comesout of Family Day Camp and they
(46:19):
camp Magic is that these kids realise that they're not alone
because nobody else, they, they can't talk.
So the kids are like, oh, I'm something wrong with me and I
can't share this because they don't know.
They now have friends realising that they're not alone.
So there's a lot of community connection coming through that.
So I mentored the very first Camp Magic 10 years ago and I've
(46:44):
always helped them fundraise andalways been apart from a
distance. 18 months ago I had the opportunity to step onto the
board. And then a year ago I stepped in
in the CEO of role. And it is just so powerful, so
(47:05):
powerful the the impact that we made the, the, the connections
that the families we have. We have about 2 1/2 thousand
volunteers that work with the charity, that the charity can't
run without them. And those volunteers that I, I
think the retentions, probably about five to seven years have
(47:28):
they been volunteers? So as soon as you, it's a
certain mindset to be a volunteer, but once you're as
part of this part of the charity, you never want to leave
because you create these connections and you're helping
other people. So have you been selfish?
Absolutely. Is it filling my cup 100%?
(47:48):
I've always had my time for, forkids and I love kids and also I
love parents being able to communicate with kids once
they've got the right tools. And when you see that happen and
you see the life changing, you know, I, I, I say it and I mean
it, that we are making generational change because if
(48:10):
we're not helping these kids now, they're not going to be
able to fulfil their full potential.
And every kid deserves. It absolutely I mean I think
it's one of the biggest driving forces to why I joined the board
with a heart on my sleeve. I think it's so incredibly
important for people to understand the power of sharing
(48:30):
their story. And like you can see they go to
these camps and they hear, oh, wow, that person has experienced
something similar to me. I'm not alone in this.
Even if you just pass that storyon to one other person, it can
change their whole entire life. And I guess going through what
(48:50):
you've been through, it's, it's a, it's an amazing way to pass
on the tools that you did learn from your parents and, and your
sport and your upbringing to other children and help them
hopefully have the opportunity to be down the track and
achieving, living their goals and dreams and, and not having
(49:12):
this incredibly unfortunate event detrimentally shape the
rest of their lives. Correct.
The probably the biggest thing that still gives me chills is
that we have 50 of the campers turn mentors.
So if you we've you can imagine what you did when you were 19 on
a Saturday night. You weren't.
You weren't helping other kids who were at a camp and mentoring
(49:35):
them. Maybe you weren't.
I'm interested. We can unpack that on the next
one. But yeah, it's yeah, it's it's
amazing. Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, and it's like, it sounds like it's a really beautiful
domino effect. Like it's a cycle that just
keeps keeps going, which I thinkis beautiful in in some ways.
(49:57):
Well, on this podcast, we definitely don't talk about, you
know, people's businesses and and things like that.
It is it is about wearing a heart on your sleeve and, and
sharing your emotional experiences.
But the reason why I was really comfortable in in talking about
this, I feel like they they go hand in hand.
You know, the two charities combine to help people of of all
(50:19):
ages hard on my sleeve is is foreverybody.
But I I often feel that with younger people especially, one
of my biggest life goals is to help parents help their kids
learn how to communicate and help parents communicate in the
most effective way possible withtheir kids.
So that we raise generations of children that know what their
(50:42):
emotions are and know how to talk about it and know how to
wear their hat on their sleeve. And what you'll what you'll find
with the kids and listening to our kids talk after they've been
through camps, excuse me, is that kids are resilient.
Kids are. And kids are not shy to talk the
the taboo. And they will give them a
(51:02):
platform, provided we give them a platform.
So it's, yeah. It's powerful.
It's powerful. It's.
And you know, it's why you wake up every morning.
What can you do? Yeah.
Yeah, well, I think that your your brothers would be
exceptionally proud of you. But I also know that your
parents would be so proud of you.
(51:24):
Yeah. They are of both of us, of my
brother and I, and the beauty isthat they communicate that.
Yeah. So we know that.
We feel that and we everyone's. Lucky.
Yeah. Well, I think that you're a
wonderful example of how from childhood to adulthood, what
wearing your heart on your sleeve can do in such a positive
(51:46):
way. And I really hope that people
can take the messaging and and the tools that Gavin speaks
about and be able to utilise that in their own journey.
So thank you so much for joiningme here today.
And I, I will be linking every, all the information fulfil the
magic as well in the show notes because I think it's really
(52:08):
incredibly important. Just on quick side note, Gavin
and I was speaking earlier around the lack of resources
that are available for people that are going through loss,
especially between the ages of seven and 17.
That I, I feel like it's something that we will
definitely be putting on the heart on my sleeve website as
(52:30):
well. Because learning to weigh your
heart on your sleeve and, and speak up about something like
this and then saying where is there any information on this?
You know, I, I feel so alone in it because I can't even find any
information on it. I think that is hugely
confronting for somebody. So I definitely would like to
make that, I guess a stepping stone to make them wearing their
(52:53):
heart on their sleeve even easier.
So I will pop that below. But thank you so much everybody
and I will see you in the next episode.
Thank you. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced.
And so if there's more thoughts,more stories, more intentions to
come along. So the act of how am I leaving
(53:14):
it alone is an act of not act, adding more stories, adding fuel
to it. So it might not go away in 2
minutes, but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix it, we
become the person who makes space for the heart, the mind,
to relax and settle away itself.
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