June 20, 2024 • 49 mins
🎙 Join us for another 𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐬 𝐁𝐮𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐬 𝐍𝐞𝐰𝐬 𝐑𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝-𝐮𝐩 🌿
In one of those rare occasions we find Ben and AnnaRae in one place at the same time, at the Vertosa HQ, before AnnaRae jets off on her next trip, we have much to catch-up on!
🍺 California: Vape Gate Part Deux?
👮 Maryland: Historic pardoning of 175,000 cannabis convictions
☀️ Florida: The Cannabist exits the Sunshine State
❌ 𝗣𝗼𝗹𝗶𝗰𝘆 𝗨𝗽𝗱𝗮𝘁𝗲: All things hemp, cannabis, and Farm Bill
➕ Oh, and HAPPY FIRST BIRTHDAY TO US!!! (belated...oops)
As always, High Spirits is more than a podcast – it's a dynamic conversation among leaders in the cannabis industry. We film live, and your participation is what makes our discussion richer and more meaningful. We invite you to contribute to the conversation and let us know what's important to you! What topics should we delve into? We welcome your questions and comments, so drop them into the chat and join us as we dive into the current events of the cannabis industry!
--
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Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben Larson (00:05):
Hey everybody, Welcome to High Spirits.
It's episode 48.
Anna Rae and I are live inperson and we're recording June
20th, 2024.
And we missed our firstbirthday.
We did.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:19):
We just realized our first episode was
June 1st and we're well intoJune, so yeah, happy birthday,
happy birthday.
Ben Larson (00:28):
Yeah, I guess that's what happens when you're
gallivanting around the worldand working your ass off.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:34):
Yeah, you know, I was surprised to realize
that we were able to pull offabout 48 episodes in a year.
To be honest, we had hoped totry to do it every week.
Ben Larson (00:43):
At 52, we're doing pretty good well, okay, so we
set that intention in january ofthis year, that's true, which
we're a little off pace, but wecan catch up still.
Yeah, um, last year I don'tthink we actually had set that
intention.
We, we just got going.
Uh, we, we, we had our initialpilot episode a few weeks later.
We had Christy and Jay Khanfrom Cannes and Kiva.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:08):
That was a great episode.
We talked about pride productsand kind of identity politics
and how cannabis companies cannavigate that.
It's still relevant and nowwe're back in pride month.
Ben Larson (01:19):
We are back in pride month.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:22):
I think the reason we didn't set a clear
goal when we started and youmaybe had more confidence than I
did, but I didn't know ifanybody would care or listen or
pay attention.
Ben Larson (01:31):
So here's the thing about me I do things, whether
people care or not.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:37):
But yeah, you know, I yesterday we had a
conversation with someone in theindustry who told us that
someone on his team summarizesour episodes for him and gives
him the highlights and the mostimportant tidbits that were said
.
I think that I almost cried.
I couldn't believe it.
Ben Larson (01:56):
It makes me feel unduly important.
Don't feel too important.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:01):
Stay humble, my friend, but it's really fun.
We're in person at the vertosaoffice in berkeley today and
we've done very few in-personepisodes together.
Uh, we, we did one in vegaswhen we were there and we did a
live event and um, and we didone other one, uh right, when we
were getting started.
(02:22):
But mostly we've been all indifferent places all over the
country, in the world or fromour home offices.
Ben Larson (02:28):
It makes me like really understand the impact of
okay, so I'm going back to likesome early like tech day
thoughts is like the importanceor impact of latency in a
conversation, even if it's justmilliseconds, right.
And so, like, when you're inperson, like the immediacy, the
(02:49):
visual cues, everything allowsyou to have just such more
natural conversation.
And then my brain goes downthis wormhole about how, like
Zoom, our Zoom life impacts,like you know, our relationships
with everyone and everything.
But we don't need to cover allthat today.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:07):
It's a really good point.
I mean, there is so much powerin the fact that we can be in
all different places around theworld and get to work with
people and push things forwardand, at the same time, it's
really nice to be here lookingat your eyes instead of at my
own face on the Zoom screen.
So, yeah, you know, I thinkit's an important lesson about
(03:29):
as companies and leaderscontinue to figure out what is
the right type of workplaceculture and people lean into
hybrid of like.
How do you make it so thatpeople have the flexibility to
have healthy work-life balancesbut also not getting away from
meeting in person from time totime?
Ben Larson (03:46):
Yeah, absolutely Well time to time been on the
road.
I think my team actuallycalculated for me like five of
the last seven weeks, which theamount of ground both physically
and proverbially covered islike it was really time well
(04:07):
spent.
You know those in-personconnections and the
conversations that you can havelike ad hoc and not perpetually
scheduled in 30 minuteincrements on your calendar.
It's just really powerful.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:18):
So question about that.
I talk to people in differentbusinesses all the time, all day
long, and I hear kind ofconflicting perspectives about
the usefulness of going toconferences and networking
events that are cannabis-focusedor hemp-focused, and you've
been going pretty deep.
(04:38):
Some of them have been outside.
I know you went to BevNet,which was not an industry event
but a beverage-focused eventthat THC was highlighted in.
What's your perspective?
Do you feel like you're gettinga lot out of these conferences
and events?
What's the strategy?
Ben Larson (04:57):
Yeah, I'm getting a lot.
It's taking a lot.
I'm very happy to be home.
I have a clear schedule thissummer just to focus on getting
work done.
A lot of it post-processing,kind of what was established as
a, as a foundation from allthese conferences, um.
But really it's going in withintention, right.
(05:18):
It's like who's going to bethere?
Like, who do I do I want totalk to?
What are the conversations thatI could potentially have?
Where can I move the needle,whether it's on business
development policy or otherwise,or am I just going as an
observer to, as a CEO?
Allow it for me to have abetter understanding of what the
future holds.
(05:40):
Bevnet was great because we hada number of representatives from
the cannabis beverage communityand I really appreciate how
Jeff Kleinman and the BevNetteam have really created space
for THC.
Conversely, I was at BeverageForum a few weeks prior in LA
(06:03):
and over a two-day period, wherewe're talking about the future
of beverage, thc wasn't evenmentioned once, almost as if it
was like a prerogative of theorganizers to make sure that it
didn't happen.
But what I did realize in thatconference is that everything
was about mood enhancement.
It was the next mega categorycategory, other mega categories
(06:24):
being like energy drinks oralcohol, right.
So mood enhancement being thenext future category, like that
is cannabis, like it is theultimate mood enhancer, um,
especially for all those, uh inthe industry.
I think we would all agree.
Um, so, yeah, it's a littlesomething, something different
(06:44):
in each one, but if we choosethem properly and we set the
right intentions, they can beincredibly valuable.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:50):
Yeah, and I completely understand and have
empathy for the people who Italked to, who are operators
running big companies that arelike I don't have time for that
conference or that's tooexpensive, and I'm keeping my
head down and focused on whatI'm doing.
I get it.
It does cost a lot, it isn'tfor everybody and you can't do
(07:11):
them all, so you got to makechoices.
But I'm with you.
I get.
I find a ton of value inin-person connection and the
rapport.
That happens when you get tosit down with someone and have a
casual, free, flowingconversation, that the
accelerated ability to buildtrust with someone in that
(07:32):
environment is just somethingthat can't be underestimated,
and so I find that highlyvaluable.
Especially cannabis is reallyrelationship driven and there's
a lot of deals and partnershipsand in order to do that, we have
to build trust with the peoplethat we're looking at deals with
, and that's a great way to doit.
(07:53):
And then the other thing thatyou said that I liked was just
sometimes going to really tolearn and be an observer and to
sit back and experiencesomething, and that's very much
the way that I approachedMinnesota.
It's like I am there toexperience the market and to sit
back quietly, even if as awallflower, and watch what
(08:15):
unfolds in front of me and who'stalking to who and who's moving
the needle.
So yeah, I'm all for it, but yougotta make choices which ones
you go to.
Ben Larson (08:24):
Well, yeah, and like , after spending a great deal of
time in the cannabis industry,you started embarking on broader
like psychedelics marketplaceand I'm sure when you first
start going to those conferences, like, oh, I know far less
people, I'm far less importanthere than in my previous world,
and that's what I get when I,anytime I go to like Expo West
or Beverage Forum.
I'm like previous world andthat's what I get when I,
(08:45):
anytime I go to like Expo Westor Beverage Forum, I'm like I
know hardly anyone here.
I get excited when I run intoone person that I, that I
recognize, and I think that'sthat's healthy, especially as an
entrepreneur.
You know like we thrive inuncomfortable situations and and
I know no one likes to hearthis from me, but like as an
introvert, yeah, yeah, we don't,but like as an introvert.
(09:06):
Yeah, yeah.
We don't believe you're anintrovert but okay, like the
social anxiety of like notknowing anyone, like it's like I
have to like go into the thirdperson and be like, oh, this is
a fun exercise, but also justlike, yeah, we aren't that
important.
We have a very small industryand we need to realize where we
sit in the grand scheme ofeverything and that the powers,
especially when it comes to thepolicy side, the powers that
(09:27):
exist that are beyond ourcontrol.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:29):
Yeah, and on the in-person events when
they're focused on policy, bethem lobby days or a trade
association that's having aconference.
One of the things that I'vealways enjoyed most about those
types of events is how, in thepolicy setting, you can
sometimes lock arms in a veryunique way with competitors and
(09:50):
find alignment that you don'tget to find when you're
competing in the marketplace tosell your products into the same
shelf or to sell your productsto the same customers or
whatever it may be.
And so policy is this great kindof reckoning, of alignment.
(10:11):
That is super important andI've always gotten a lot out of
that.
And that type of collaborativealignment, then has later, after
being in this for over a decade, has led to opportunities down
the line.
When people are in new placesand new companies and are doing
new things, it's like, oh, welocked arms five years ago
(10:33):
trying to get that bill passedand and now?
Now let's do a deal together.
Ben Larson (10:37):
Now let's talk about how these companies that we're
working with could collaborateor do a jv and like there's,
there is trust, like we knowwe're good people yeah in a
different kind of way I I postedabout this after the the canara
conference, um and I I came tothe realization that there's a
lot of people that don'tunderstand what canara is, even
though we had jillian shower onon the show.
(10:57):
Uh, great episode, you shouldgo watch it.
Um, it was amazing to be ableto like put together, kind
together, this ad hoc breakfastafter the last day and we had
heads from the US HempRoundtable and the US Hemp
Authority attach, the AmericanTrade Association of Cannabis
(11:18):
Hemp, who might be consideredthe polar opposite of the
Roundtable.
We had the Cannabis BeverageAssociation, the cannabis
beverage association the hempbeverage alliance, astm and cia
and cia and and you invited meand you which is awesome, and
our guest next week, uh, scotto'malley from clarity, um, and
(11:41):
just so many other great thoughtleaders, all talking about the
pathway forward for beverage,which I love, but, yeah, all
those people and it was a verycivil conversation.
I don't think there was even anelevated voice, or certainly
not a punch thrown, as one mightexpect, and it's like you get
(12:04):
everyone off LinkedIn for alittle bit and you can actually
be human and have realconversations.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:12):
Well, we don't want to bore people too
much with our gallivantingaround the country.
Maybe we put a pin in this, butbut you know we are recording
this in person and one of thereasons is because I am on my
way to the airport for anothertrip, but this time it is not
for a conference, even thoughI'm going without my family.
So it felt at first like I wasgoing on a work trip.
(12:33):
But I'm actually going to LasVegas to go to the Dead Co shows
.
Ben Larson (12:37):
Oh, it's amazing In the sphere.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:39):
It's at the sphere which I'm so excited
about, On the inside.
Ben Larson (12:42):
I've only seen the outside screen it looks so cool.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:45):
I'm sure that people have seen the pictures
and the videos that people areposting.
And I'm bringing my dad andthis was his request.
He wanted to go, and how do yousay no to that?
So we are going to have a greattime.
I've got great dinnerreservations.
We've got a great hotel.
We are going to have a greattime.
(13:05):
I've got great dinnerreservations.
We've got a great hotel.
We are going to have so muchfun.
So I'm really pumped to go toVegas and see the dad.
Ben Larson (13:11):
I can't wait to hear how it goes.
I'm you're inspiring me.
I want to take my dad.
Do you know how long they'replaying there for?
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:18):
Oh yeah, they extended there's.
There's some shows that go allthe way into August.
It's like they're doing thesethree night weekend runs
thursday, friday and saturdayand they're doing them every
weekend, at least well into july.
Ben Larson (13:32):
You can totally take your dad yeah, the geek in me
just needs to go.
I just want to know what it'slike to like choreograph the
artwork for that amazing screenthat they have.
I know that must be like a hugeendeavor in its own.
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:46):
Yeah, it sounds so cool and I'll blow up
my dad's spot a little bit.
Last night, when we were on thephone talking about packing,
his question to me was so canyou smoke weed inside?
Ben Larson (14:00):
the sphere.
AnnaRae Grabstein (14:00):
Great question.
And I was like well, I'm sureit's technically against the
rules, but whether it'sculturally acceptable or not,
like remains to be seen.
And he said, ok, well then,I'll bring a vape pen.
And I was like solid choice.
Ben Larson (14:17):
I mean if the visual effects team is doing their job
.
They'll just have a lot ofsmoke machines at the right time
and the crowd will understandthe assignment yeah, absolutely,
uh, so um biggest news incannabis that's on your mind uh
well, uh well, let's start withcalifornia.
(14:38):
We're sitting in california.
We have our lovely, uh,california bear right here.
When I saw the article releasedit kind of made me think of
VapeGate.
So VapeGate Part Deux, andwe're talking about Alex
Halperin and I forget the otherauthor's name in the LA Times
(15:00):
releasing a pretty in-depthinvestigative report on
pesticides being present in vapecarts across the regulated
marketplace in California, whichI haven't heard of negative
(15:21):
impacts from these pesticidesbeing in the vapes.
But, as we know, withpesticides sometimes it's a long
lasting impacts and all thiskind of stuff.
And it was pretty salacious.
You know the the, theingredients that people are
using.
They might not be on aCalifornia list but they're on
on a federal ban list.
So, like, who's at fault comesinto, comes into mind, but I
(15:42):
don't know.
There's just a.
You know as a company that sitsat the intersection of hemp and
regulated cannabis.
Yeah, it's like, wow, it's likethere's a lot of stones being
thrown in both directions andthis is just not a good look and
(16:04):
, frankly, the cannabis industryis in such turmoil, especially
in California, that reallydoesn't need this kind of bad
press at the moment.
So, yeah, I'm kind of curious,you know, as someone who's been
very involved with the supplychain over the years, like what
was your initial reaction?
AnnaRae Grabstein (16:24):
Yeah, oh my gosh, so many reactions and so
much confusion about what myreal high level takeaway is.
But yeah, I have started myabove ground cannabis career in
the lab space and then came upin vertically integrated company
(16:44):
that was very focused on indoorcultivation.
My community of has always beendeep in cultivation in
California and, um, the firstthing I did when I read this
report was sort of question.
(17:05):
It of like how how much can wetrust these lab results that are
part of the investigation?
How much can we trust these labresults that are part of the
investigation?
We know that all the productsthat come to the shelf in legal
retail have been tested.
So what this report is sayingis that those results were bogus
or that they also are notcovering enough in terms of the
(17:31):
type of analysis that's that'sbeing done to to determine, like
, what is present in thesesubstances and and so that was.
It was just I was immediatelyquestioning of it because I feel
protective of cultivators and Iknow that cultivators and I
can't speak for all of them, butthe ones that I know and the
(17:53):
ones that I work with are goodpeople that care about what
they're doing.
They have tremendous pride inthe plants that they're growing
and they consider their farmingtechniques to be the cleanest
that are out there.
People often talk about theCalifornia.
Cannabis is cleaner than thanorganic food because of the
(18:13):
restrictions around pesticides.
So I just I didn't want tobelieve, to be honest, that what
this report said was real, butafter a few days of processing
it, I I have come to believethat it probably is the case.
That's at least some of thetest results that they put forth
(18:34):
in the article is probably true.
I'm not.
I'm not yelling fake news fromthe corner, but really what I
started to think about was how?
But?
But why?
What is the environment thathas created the situation where
a cultivator is using pesticides?
Because no legal farm inCalifornia sets out and intends
(18:59):
to use pesticides.
If it's happening, it'shappening out of desperation,
because there is some type ofimpact happening in the
cultivation, like a bug or mold,or something is happening that
they're trying to control and tosave the harvest.
And when you have a farm and ora grow room and all of a sudden
(19:21):
, a bug becomes present or sometype of mildew or powdery mildew
shows up, I think that thatwhat you're what you're doing is
you're weighing the risks andthe rewards, and and I think
that what you're doing is you'reweighing the risks and the
rewards and I think that one ofthe things that is my biggest
takeaway as I process this isthat cultivators have become
increasingly desperate and, as aresult, very few are winning
(19:44):
and very few have financialsecurity, and the lack of
financial security is causingpeople to take desperate
(20:04):
measures, and I'm not sayingthat those desperate measures
are okay.
Ben Larson (20:09):
I'm just simply saying that I think that it's
symptomatic of a larger problemyeah, yeah, the concerning
factor to me is that, right orwrong, the regulators actually
have not acted on complaintsthat they've received and that
(20:30):
was identified in the article.
And there's like products thatcould have been taken off the
market, that were tainted,supposedly um or allegedly um,
and the dcc did nothing about it, and you know I've seen a
little bit of chatter online.
It's like we pay an inordinateamount in taxes, in licensing
(20:52):
fees, every year and like to nothave like the industry
supported with the regulationthat we pay for, and when I say
supported, I mean like upholdingthe image of the regulated
market, the real californiacannabis market, as they have
spent 60 million dollars on a,on a marketing campaign for like
(21:15):
it's a total stain.
Uh, on the on the regulators, Ifeel um, which I'm not pointing
out to any particular regulator.
It's, you know it's, it's a,it's a complicated
infrastructure.
I know um, and we've had, youknow, certain regulators on as
(21:35):
guests, and so I'm not.
You know it's a complicatedinfrastructure, I know and we've
had, you know, certainregulators on as guests.
AnnaRae Grabstein (21:44):
And so I'm not pointing the figure at any
one person, but the construct ispretty fucked up at this point.
Yeah, so what you'rehighlighting is a lack of
enforcement, and you're rightand I maybe have said this
before on this podcast.
I certainly say it all the timein my work with clients as that
compliance is a spectrum, itisn't black and white.
And and within that spectrum,when a licensee, a licensed
cannabis business, is assessingthe spectrum of compliance, of
(22:10):
of how to participate insomething that might at first
seem black and white, the firstplace you go is the likelihood
of compliance, of how toparticipate in something that
might at first seem black andwhite.
The first place you go is thelikelihood of enforcement.
And so when you're trying todecide, in that desperate moment
, when you maybe have bugs inyour grow and you're trying to
decide, okay, I am faced withtwo choices here.
I'm faced with either my entirecrop becoming loss.
(22:31):
I'm faced with either my entirecrop becoming loss or having to
use a potentially bannedsubstance to save my crop.
What do I do?
Ben Larson (22:52):
Well, within that really complex and shitty
decision.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:54):
You then think about well, if I do the
thing that technically isagainst the rules, what might
happen and then if the outcomeof what might happen is likely
nothing, then it's a lot morelikely that someone's going to
choose that path because thereisn't a fear of enforcement.
I'm not over here waving theflag for more enforcement, but
(23:14):
you're right that when theregulatory groups that are
supposed to be enforcing thelaws don't it, it makes the
likelihood of participants inthe market choosing to comply
with those rules less likely.
Ben Larson (23:32):
Yeah, yeah, I.
I'm particularly sensitive toit because there's another
California agency that has beenputting out salacious messaging
around the safety around THCbeverages and they're just it's
a lot of fear mongering that isgoing on and they're actually
doing some enforcement and it'slike if you're going to enforce
(23:55):
these rules where actuallytechnically there's very little
potential for harm, if not none,I guess you can't say none from
a probability standpoint.
But in this particular caseit's like these are like proven
carcinogens, right?
Um?
(24:15):
Which quick sidebar do you know?
Jill from Willow Um, is that?
Is this, as you, theremediation, uh technology that
she has?
Is this a potential use case?
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:28):
I don't know.
My understanding is it has moreto do with microbiological
contamination and not pesticides.
Okay, but Jill reach out to us.
Ben Larson (24:37):
Jill, you want to be on the show?
Yeah, come on.
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:40):
Yeah, tell us about it.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I totallyunderstand why it feels
incredibly frustrating to have agovernment agency saying that
that an edible that isn'tcombusting, you know is, is
potentially unsafe when they'renot enforcing the rules that
(25:01):
exist.
Right, so, absolutely, I thinkI.
I guess, luckily, there havebeen no adverse events that have
been reported as a result ofthis and I I hope that there are
none Like.
The last thing that we want isany kind of public health or
safety problem to come up, andmy takeaway is that the
(25:24):
brokenness of an over-regulatedenvironment like California is
trying to manage through has alot of unintended consequences
in terms of trickle-down effects, of operator choices, and this
is a bad choice that people arebeing forced to make because
(25:46):
they haven't been able torealize successful businesses
that can help them to have morefreedom to make good decisions.
And I'm certainly not trying tosay that it's okay if people
choose to use a pesticide, but Ithink it is important to
understand the environment thatputs people in the situation
that they're forced to make thatchoice, or they feel forced to
(26:08):
make that choice, forced to makethat choice.
So, yeah, I mean, and and Ihope it doesn't become vape,
vape gate, part de.
So if you're out there andyou're listening and you're a
cultivator and you want to sharewith us any of the insights
that you have about this, Iwould be interested to hear what
(26:28):
cultivators think about thepesticide rules and how they
could be improved, changed.
You know if they're working, ifthey're not.
Yeah, those voices matter inthis conversation.
Ben Larson (26:43):
Okay, all right.
Well, let's pick up the mood alittle bit.
Let's go over to the East Coast.
Oh yeah, maryland, maryland,157,000, 175,000, 175 sorry
dyslexia, uh, 175,000, umpardons, pardons, that's huge by
(27:05):
governor westmore, go westmorewe need more, more more more,
more so cool.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:16):
It was so exciting to to hear this news
this week and it's such a bignumber.
Ben Larson (27:24):
Maryland is not a huge state and I think in
comparison, we got reallyexcited the other month when
Minnesota pardoned 68,000.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:33):
Something like that, I believe.
Ben Larson (27:35):
So yeah, more than two times that in a smaller
state.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:39):
Yeah, and so when you definitely smaller by?
Physical size by land mass yeah, I think there are probably
more people in Maryland, but I'mnot sure.
Ben Larson (27:49):
So on fact check.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:50):
Yeah, but come on now, Like.
So the Biden administrationmade a pretty big deal about
about the ways that they weregoing to um expunge people's
records, and my understanding isthat it has been less than
10,000 people who have benefitedby those efforts.
(28:13):
So that has been a bunch of lipservice, and to see Wes Moore
take this flag and carry itforward gives me a lot of hope
that there is a generation ofyounger politicians that truly
understand the work to be doneto get cannabis off people's
(28:36):
records, Like let's be done.
Let's have that be in therearview mirror right.
Ben Larson (28:40):
Yeah, well, it's a huge step, and for it to happen
this week while Juneteenth ishappening and just kind of every
step that we can take to kindof reverse the impacts of the
war on drugs, is huge.
So huge applause to Maryland.
More of that, please, yeah, andhopefully that starts to
(29:03):
infiltrate the federaldiscussion a little bit.
AnnaRae Grabstein (29:06):
Absolutely.
I love it.
Now let's from Maryland, let'stravel south.
Let's talk about Florida for aminute.
Ben Larson (29:14):
Ah, the Sunshine State.
Is that right?
Is that what it's called?
Yeah, I think it's the SunshineBridge, right?
Yeah?
AnnaRae Grabstein (29:20):
Sunshine State and also another call out.
We want to have a solid Floridastakeholder on the show to talk
in more depth about Florida inthe coming weeks leading up to
the election in Florida.
So if that's, you, let us know.
But there, yeah, there was abunch of interesting things that
have been happening in Floridathe last couple of weeks, but
(29:42):
the one that that made theheadlines this week is the
Cannabis, which is a public MSO,previously called Columbia Care
, announced that they arepulling out of Florida,
divesting, selling their assetsthere.
And, to remind people that arelistening, in Florida it is a
very limited medical marketwhere there are less than 30
(30:06):
companies that have licenses andthose are strictly vertical
licenses, fully closed supplychain.
Those businesses don't eventransact with each other except
under very specific and kind ofunique circumstances.
So when you are a Floridaoperator, you grow everything
that you sell, everything thatyou manufacture and that
trickles down into your ownretail footprint, and so it's a
(30:31):
big move because, in general,the companies that are in
Florida and the market hasviewed Florida as kind of a
golden crown, so to speak,because that vertical
environment has led to somepretty insane regulatory and
(30:54):
legislative capture for thosebusinesses that have been
participating, and Trulieve isthe one that people know about
the most in terms of the levelof scale that they've achieved
there with over 150 stores.
Wow, the Cannabis only has 14stores in Florida.
So you look at that scale.
Of that, trulieve is 10x plusbigger than them, but they've
(31:20):
been losing just in Q1 of 2024.
They lost $5 million in Floridaand so getting out of Florida
makes sense, I guess, but at thesame time there's a lot of
people that were looking forwardto Florida transitioning to
adult use, and the publicmarkets have been responding to
a belief that those companiesthat have a foothold in Florida
(31:41):
are going to do well.
So this is notable.
Ben Larson (31:43):
Yeah, yeah.
And the undercurrent of policyin Florida is just really
interesting and everythingDeSantis is doing as far as
vetoing the hemp bill, which inessence kept the kind of
unregulated kind of nature of ofthe of hemp in florida kind of
at least alive for the next year, um, it'll be interesting to
(32:06):
see what happens withregulations, um, as that bill is
revisited in the next session.
And then there's also thecannabis, the recreational
cannabis bill.
AnnaRae Grabstein (32:17):
Yeah, that will be going to voters in
November.
Ben Larson (32:20):
It's a high bar.
It's a 60% vote.
That's necessary and very fewstates have passed with 60%.
AnnaRae Grabstein (32:28):
That's right.
But at the same time, if welook back to when Florida passed
their medical law, which wasalso a voter initiative, it
passed with 72% of the vote,which was the highest percentage
of voter initiative ever passed.
Apparently, I think it wasHirsch, jane, who told us that,
so I'm quoting you, hirsch, onthat, if you want to fact check
me.
(32:48):
But, so medical passed with 72%check me.
But so medical pass was 72%.
So if you compare it to thatand you say, okay, well, if
adult use only needs 60% to passseems possible.
But the polls are showing thatadult use is kind of fluctuating
between 58% and 63%.
So I don't think anyone feelsvery comfortable with that and
(33:09):
we're going to see it play outthat DeSantis is going to come
out strong against the adult usemarket while we're getting a
ton of money inflows into theyes camp through the existing
Florida operators led byTrulieve and then the kind of
the group around Kim Rivers and,yeah, Interesting, I don't know
(33:37):
.
I I have spent a good amount oftime thinking about the Florida
market and, um, if it makessense to be there and and if you
could show up there and as a,as a smaller operator, the way
the cannabis is in that marketand and compete and it it does
really seem like in Florida thename of the cannabis is in that
market and and compete and it itdoes really seem like in
florida the name of the game isa large retail presence and
(33:58):
there is, and in many states, ifyou have 14 retail stores,
that's a very large retailpresence, but not in florida
when you've got a number ofgroups.
Many of those uh operators haveover 50 stores, but then there's
ones that are still reallypushing.
Green Thumb Industriesannounced, I think, that they're
(34:20):
opening their I think it's 17thstore in Florida this week and
so they're still investing,they're still growing.
They have a long way to go tobe able to get to the amount of
stores that Trulieve has, but Ithink Floridians really like
mind-altering substances.
I think it's a culture that hashad a lot of opioid addiction
(34:47):
in the past and also an olderpopulation, and so there has
been a real openness toembracing medical cannabis in
the state and also all of thetourists.
So Florida could be an amazingadult use market.
Ben Larson (35:03):
Absolutely.
I just I am curious as to whatsome of the shareholders are
feeling when they see a proposedhemp bill I felt was pretty
liberal, right, I know there's alot of hemp operators like you
know.
It kills kind of the, the vapecomponent um, but it allowed for
up to like 50 milligrams of thcand kind of you know the the
(35:27):
less regulated market um, andthat's kind of a leaky bucket
problem for this protectedlimited license kind of
structure which I've never beena huge fan of.
So I'll just put it out there.
But for that bill to be vetoed,I'm wondering if they're like,
(35:47):
oh shit, like what's the actualbill going to look like that
eventually does get passed andhow much of it is going to eat
into to the, the revenue of, ofthe regulated marketplace?
AnnaRae Grabstein (36:00):
I think what you're touching on is sort of
this broader question about canstates that have adult use and
open hemp commercialized hempproducts play well together or
are we going to see this likeit's either one or the other?
(36:21):
And we've talked aboutMinnesota a lot.
Minnesota has plans to do both,but they haven't launched adult
use.
So we don't know yet.
It's a really solid point.
It's a solid question.
We just don't have enough datato know.
What I will say of what data wedo have is that consumers
(36:44):
certainly don't understand thedifference small industry niche
and go on LinkedIn and you seeCEOs of companies kind of
calling each other out ordebating this question about if
we should ban hemp or if weshould regulate hemp or what.
(37:06):
Whatever we should do, in theend, what actually matters is
what the consumers understandand how they relate and interact
with and engage in theseproducts.
I was talking to a friend who'sa brand strategist, who lives in
New Jersey and doesn't work incannabis at all and was telling
(37:29):
me about how she went to thisreally fancy wedding in Maine
and that there were celebritiesthere and famous musicians and
it was just super beautiful,well curated, lovely event, and
that they had right next totheir bar they had a table of of
Rose Delights edibles and thatthey were so good and everyone
(37:52):
was enjoying them.
And I was like oh yeah, thoseare hemp and and she was like no
, no, no, I got high from themand and I was like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I know you got high fromthem, Um, but those are, those
are hemp.
And she's like, no, no, I'mpositive, that was THC.
And I was like, yeah, yeah,that's that, that, that is THC.
(38:13):
And I was like, yeah, yeah,that is THC, but that's hemp.
And then I realized, okay, I'mnot going to fight with her.
She is just like so manyconsumers.
She doesn't understand thedifference between hemp and
cannabis and shouldn't beexpected to understand the
(38:34):
difference between hemp andcannabis.
Ben Larson (38:35):
It's an important anecdote, because I've got
another one to layer on top ofit.
Diana Eberlein, from theCannabis Beverage Association,
was telling me this story aboutTAC beverages being at the Grand
Ole Opry and a consumer askingabout, oh, can I have a TAC
beverage?
(38:55):
Asking about like, oh, can I,can I have a thc beverage, and
the the uh guy at the cashierwas, uh, basically like, oh,
those aren't thc, that's hemp.
And that is probably the worstscenario that we could have,
because it's like you're, you'recausing confusion yeah, because
it's both THC and hemp.
Yes, they can exist together.
AnnaRae Grabstein (39:17):
So, yeah, we have a very particular branding
issue here and I think you know,working with Pamela Epstein and
Neil Wellner and you know ASTMon kind of standardizing
packaging and labeling acrossthe segments is hyper important
um yeah, and I think that thatis what american consumers, I
(39:40):
guess and I'll just speak foramerican consumers, but, like
you know, part of living in acivilized society with all of of
these layers of governmentbureaucracy, for better or for
worse like there is an ingrainedcultural belief that when you
buy a product at a store and youpay sales tax on it and it's in
(40:01):
a package, that that issomething that you can trust,
and I think that that's reallyimportant.
And when you talk about you know, back to the original point of
like, well, what might it looklike in Florida if they have a
very open hemp environment andan open adult use space?
And like, I think that, like,ultimately although we're very
(40:23):
far away from it, but you and Iwould both agree that like,
regulating as one plant andregulating cannabinoids is the
most obvious solution.
Like let's stop having to tohorse trade or specify the
difference between hemp andregulated cannabis when we're
talking about the same compoundsinside these products.
We're just so far away fromthat and so we have to take
(40:46):
these incremental steps.
Um, that hopefully will lead usto this, you know, beautiful
rainbow with the pot of gold atthe end, where we have an
integrated supply chain.
At some point that just makessense and is sensible.
But in the meantime, I thinkwe're just going to keep having
complex supply chains tonavigate through, and it's going
(41:09):
to be the company's jobs tohelp consumers to understand
what it is they're consuming,and we're just going to be
playing in this gray space for alittle bit.
Ben Larson (41:20):
Yeah, but I think what we will see and if we can
transition a little bit andit'll be a short segment on just
kind of talking about the FarmBill and where things seemingly
are heading After the CanRACconference conference, it became
very clear that it's like theregulators, the legislators,
(41:41):
everyone knows now, like, whathemp is and that it's not just
rope, that it's potentially dopeas well, um, and they want to
do something about it and so, um, you know, the miller amendment
is problematic for a number ofreasons for the broader hemp
industry and I think there's alot of people who are like we
(42:04):
have to kill this amendment.
I think we need to recognizethat the amendment, from a high
level, is indicative of whereCongress is at on this topic um,
maybe not all of congress, butmany of them and and what was
kind of reiterated over and overagain from a number of
(42:24):
different folks is, like, don'tkill, adapt, like, take it as,
like like an opportunity toengage and understand, like, why
they're trying to implementcertain restrictions and then
identify which of thoserestrictions are problematic and
why and what an alternative isto do it that achieves a certain
(42:46):
end goal, and that end goal isconsumer safety at the end of
the day, and so, as we see,revisions come out and language
(43:21):
come out.
It's about using the differentpieces of the federal government
and the state level governmentsin the ways that they're meant
to be used and putting in thelegislation and the hard work
that needs to be done to get itdone.
And it is going to take yearsto do all this, but it has to
start at some point and it hasto start now.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:40):
Well, we'll see what happens.
Ben Larson (43:42):
We will see.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:43):
Yeah, it's going to be a long road and
there's just so much when itcomes to navigating Washington
and politics of legislation andeven just thinking about, well,
what happens if the farm billdoesn't get moved forward or
(44:06):
have substantive shifts beforethe November election, and and
then all of a sudden we've got awhole bunch of new players, um,
in the senate and in the housethat's not an unlikely situation
exactly and and who?
who are those people and what isgoing to be their approach to
looking at him?
(44:26):
Not to mention like, if, if thewhite house shifts and we have
a different president in in thatchair, it's just there's about
westmore for majority leader ohyeah, westmore for president
maybe vice president, I don'tactually know enough about him,
but I will say that people it'sokay, I'm a single issue voter
yeah, sure, yeah, exactly, umwestmore, you're invited to talk
(44:51):
to us.
We'd love to learn more aboutyou.
Um, yeah, we will see november.
It's going to be here before weknow it and uh and yeah all
right.
Ben Larson (45:03):
Well, uh, we have about five minutes left.
Um, no one again?
Uh, thank everyone forsupporting us over the last year
and three weeks.
Um, it's been an awesome show,um, an array, like we typically
do, last call, like at the endsof the shows, and I'm just
bringing this on to you.
That's why you're looking at melike this.
(45:24):
Uh, I'll stall a little bitmore so you can keep thinking um
, but, yeah, I mean, over thelast year, you know, like, what
have you picked up?
Like, what's your biggesttakeaway?
What do you?
What's your last call?
I guess is what I'm about toask, uh, and what do you want to
leave the people with today?
AnnaRae Grabstein (45:42):
oh my gosh.
Okay, I think I know what mylast call will be, but before I
do make my last call, uh, I wantto also just call you out and
thank you with tremendousgratitude for just being the
behind the scenes producer ofall of this to everybody that's
listening, like we do not havean editor.
(46:05):
Well, we have an editor, but hisname is Ben Larson and he's
also a CEO and has a whole teamof people that rely on him, and
we've just made, um, made, a lotwith a little, and, uh, I could
not have done it without you sothank you so much.
Ben Larson (46:21):
It's been really fun and um we're not gonna stop
shout out to belinda on my teamfor making us look great in the
digital sphere absolutely um andokay, last call, and what have
I?
AnnaRae Grabstein (46:33):
and the last call focused specifically on
what I've learned this last yeardoing this podcast, and a huge
takeaway has been how far theconversations that we are having
have traveled and have impactedpeople.
And I think that the last callis just to never underestimate
(46:57):
the impact that small actionscan have on business, on people
and on opportunities.
We have seen that conversationsthat we have started on this
podcast have led to policychange, have led to business
partnerships, have led tofriendships, new connections,
(47:23):
and it has just been endlesslyreinforcing to hear from all of
our listeners about the impactthat this content has made on
their lives.
So, yeah, just try new things,get out there and don't be
afraid and be open to the theways that that small actions can
(47:45):
have a domino effect in theworld.
Ben Larson (47:47):
I love that.
I love that.
Um, I'll offer my own.
Uh, just cause I.
Just because I was listening tothis great podcast this morning
, adam Grant.
He was interviewing RichardBranson and they had this whole
segment about how you treatpeople and how that is
(48:08):
indicative of how you will be asa leader, and this one quote I
pulled was how do you interactwith people who can do you no
good?
And another way to say is likehow you treat anyone is how you
treat everyone, and it's a kindof a look into the soul of the
person.
And I think what I appreciateabout you and what we both try
(48:31):
to put out in the world is justthat goodness without
expectations, and that's whywe've named the show High
Spirits, it's why we go aboutthe world that way we do, and
I've just really enjoyed thisjourney so far with you and look
forward to many years to come.
AnnaRae Grabstein (48:50):
Okay, we're not supposed to cry, but yeah,
thanks, and for everybody, let'sread it out All right, well,
and thank all of you, obviously.
Ben Larson (49:01):
Yeah, seriously, it's huge.
Thank you to our teams.
Bertosa and Wolfmeyer, you know, let us know what you think.
Who would you like to have onthe show?
We have many more episodes tocome.
Next week we have ScottO'Malley from Clarity it's a THC
beverage brand based out ofMinnesota and, yeah, a lot of
great things to come.
We're also this morning talkingabout the morning mixer coming
(49:24):
up in Las Vegas.
I'm just going to put it outthere.
It's happening.
That's how we do things.
We say things and then we haveto do it.
Anyways, until next time, folks, stay curious, stay informed
and keep your spirits high.
Until next time, that's theshow.
Hey everybody, Welcome to High Spirits.
It's episode 48.
Anna Rae and I are live inperson and we're recording June
20th, 2024.
And we missed our firstbirthday.
We did.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:19):
We just realized our first episode was
June 1st and we're well intoJune, so yeah, happy birthday,
happy birthday.
Ben Larson (00:28):
Yeah, I guess that's what happens when you're
gallivanting around the worldand working your ass off.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:34):
Yeah, you know, I was surprised to realize
that we were able to pull offabout 48 episodes in a year.
To be honest, we had hoped totry to do it every week.
Ben Larson (00:43):
At 52, we're doing pretty good well, okay, so we
set that intention in january ofthis year, that's true, which
we're a little off pace, but wecan catch up still.
Yeah, um, last year I don'tthink we actually had set that
intention.
We, we just got going.
Uh, we, we, we had our initialpilot episode a few weeks later.
We had Christy and Jay Khanfrom Cannes and Kiva.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:08):
That was a great episode.
We talked about pride productsand kind of identity politics
and how cannabis companies cannavigate that.
It's still relevant and nowwe're back in pride month.
Ben Larson (01:19):
We are back in pride month.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:22):
I think the reason we didn't set a clear
goal when we started and youmaybe had more confidence than I
did, but I didn't know ifanybody would care or listen or
pay attention.
Ben Larson (01:31):
So here's the thing about me I do things, whether
people care or not.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:37):
But yeah, you know, I yesterday we had a
conversation with someone in theindustry who told us that
someone on his team summarizesour episodes for him and gives
him the highlights and the mostimportant tidbits that were said
.
I think that I almost cried.
I couldn't believe it.
Ben Larson (01:56):
It makes me feel unduly important.
Don't feel too important.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:01):
Stay humble, my friend, but it's really fun.
We're in person at the vertosaoffice in berkeley today and
we've done very few in-personepisodes together.
Uh, we, we did one in vegaswhen we were there and we did a
live event and um, and we didone other one, uh right, when we
were getting started.
(02:22):
But mostly we've been all indifferent places all over the
country, in the world or fromour home offices.
Ben Larson (02:28):
It makes me like really understand the impact of
okay, so I'm going back to likesome early like tech day
thoughts is like the importanceor impact of latency in a
conversation, even if it's justmilliseconds, right.
And so, like, when you're inperson, like the immediacy, the
(02:49):
visual cues, everything allowsyou to have just such more
natural conversation.
And then my brain goes downthis wormhole about how, like
Zoom, our Zoom life impacts,like you know, our relationships
with everyone and everything.
But we don't need to cover allthat today.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:07):
It's a really good point.
I mean, there is so much powerin the fact that we can be in
all different places around theworld and get to work with
people and push things forwardand, at the same time, it's
really nice to be here lookingat your eyes instead of at my
own face on the Zoom screen.
So, yeah, you know, I thinkit's an important lesson about
(03:29):
as companies and leaderscontinue to figure out what is
the right type of workplaceculture and people lean into
hybrid of like.
How do you make it so thatpeople have the flexibility to
have healthy work-life balancesbut also not getting away from
meeting in person from time totime?
Ben Larson (03:46):
Yeah, absolutely Well time to time been on the
road.
I think my team actuallycalculated for me like five of
the last seven weeks, which theamount of ground both physically
and proverbially covered islike it was really time well
(04:07):
spent.
You know those in-personconnections and the
conversations that you can havelike ad hoc and not perpetually
scheduled in 30 minuteincrements on your calendar.
It's just really powerful.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:18):
So question about that.
I talk to people in differentbusinesses all the time, all day
long, and I hear kind ofconflicting perspectives about
the usefulness of going toconferences and networking
events that are cannabis-focusedor hemp-focused, and you've
been going pretty deep.
(04:38):
Some of them have been outside.
I know you went to BevNet,which was not an industry event
but a beverage-focused eventthat THC was highlighted in.
What's your perspective?
Do you feel like you're gettinga lot out of these conferences
and events?
What's the strategy?
Ben Larson (04:57):
Yeah, I'm getting a lot.
It's taking a lot.
I'm very happy to be home.
I have a clear schedule thissummer just to focus on getting
work done.
A lot of it post-processing,kind of what was established as
a, as a foundation from allthese conferences, um.
But really it's going in withintention, right.
(05:18):
It's like who's going to bethere?
Like, who do I do I want totalk to?
What are the conversations thatI could potentially have?
Where can I move the needle,whether it's on business
development policy or otherwise,or am I just going as an
observer to, as a CEO?
Allow it for me to have abetter understanding of what the
future holds.
(05:40):
Bevnet was great because we hada number of representatives from
the cannabis beverage communityand I really appreciate how
Jeff Kleinman and the BevNetteam have really created space
for THC.
Conversely, I was at BeverageForum a few weeks prior in LA
(06:03):
and over a two-day period, wherewe're talking about the future
of beverage, thc wasn't evenmentioned once, almost as if it
was like a prerogative of theorganizers to make sure that it
didn't happen.
But what I did realize in thatconference is that everything
was about mood enhancement.
It was the next mega categorycategory, other mega categories
(06:24):
being like energy drinks oralcohol, right.
So mood enhancement being thenext future category, like that
is cannabis, like it is theultimate mood enhancer, um,
especially for all those, uh inthe industry.
I think we would all agree.
Um, so, yeah, it's a littlesomething, something different
(06:44):
in each one, but if we choosethem properly and we set the
right intentions, they can beincredibly valuable.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:50):
Yeah, and I completely understand and have
empathy for the people who Italked to, who are operators
running big companies that arelike I don't have time for that
conference or that's tooexpensive, and I'm keeping my
head down and focused on whatI'm doing.
I get it.
It does cost a lot, it isn'tfor everybody and you can't do
(07:11):
them all, so you got to makechoices.
But I'm with you.
I get.
I find a ton of value inin-person connection and the
rapport.
That happens when you get tosit down with someone and have a
casual, free, flowingconversation, that the
accelerated ability to buildtrust with someone in that
(07:32):
environment is just somethingthat can't be underestimated,
and so I find that highlyvaluable.
Especially cannabis is reallyrelationship driven and there's
a lot of deals and partnershipsand in order to do that, we have
to build trust with the peoplethat we're looking at deals with
, and that's a great way to doit.
(07:53):
And then the other thing thatyou said that I liked was just
sometimes going to really tolearn and be an observer and to
sit back and experiencesomething, and that's very much
the way that I approachedMinnesota.
It's like I am there toexperience the market and to sit
back quietly, even if as awallflower, and watch what
(08:15):
unfolds in front of me and who'stalking to who and who's moving
the needle.
So yeah, I'm all for it, but yougotta make choices which ones
you go to.
Ben Larson (08:24):
Well, yeah, and like , after spending a great deal of
time in the cannabis industry,you started embarking on broader
like psychedelics marketplaceand I'm sure when you first
start going to those conferences, like, oh, I know far less
people, I'm far less importanthere than in my previous world,
and that's what I get when I,anytime I go to like Expo West
or Beverage Forum.
I'm like previous world andthat's what I get when I,
(08:45):
anytime I go to like Expo Westor Beverage Forum, I'm like I
know hardly anyone here.
I get excited when I run intoone person that I, that I
recognize, and I think that'sthat's healthy, especially as an
entrepreneur.
You know like we thrive inuncomfortable situations and and
I know no one likes to hearthis from me, but like as an
introvert, yeah, yeah, we don't,but like as an introvert.
(09:06):
Yeah, yeah.
We don't believe you're anintrovert but okay, like the
social anxiety of like notknowing anyone, like it's like I
have to like go into the thirdperson and be like, oh, this is
a fun exercise, but also justlike, yeah, we aren't that
important.
We have a very small industryand we need to realize where we
sit in the grand scheme ofeverything and that the powers,
especially when it comes to thepolicy side, the powers that
(09:27):
exist that are beyond ourcontrol.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:29):
Yeah, and on the in-person events when
they're focused on policy, bethem lobby days or a trade
association that's having aconference.
One of the things that I'vealways enjoyed most about those
types of events is how, in thepolicy setting, you can
sometimes lock arms in a veryunique way with competitors and
(09:50):
find alignment that you don'tget to find when you're
competing in the marketplace tosell your products into the same
shelf or to sell your productsto the same customers or
whatever it may be.
And so policy is this great kindof reckoning, of alignment.
(10:11):
That is super important andI've always gotten a lot out of
that.
And that type of collaborativealignment, then has later, after
being in this for over a decade, has led to opportunities down
the line.
When people are in new placesand new companies and are doing
new things, it's like, oh, welocked arms five years ago
(10:33):
trying to get that bill passedand and now?
Now let's do a deal together.
Ben Larson (10:37):
Now let's talk about how these companies that we're
working with could collaborateor do a jv and like there's,
there is trust, like we knowwe're good people yeah in a
different kind of way I I postedabout this after the the canara
conference, um and I I came tothe realization that there's a
lot of people that don'tunderstand what canara is, even
though we had jillian shower onon the show.
(10:57):
Uh, great episode, you shouldgo watch it.
Um, it was amazing to be ableto like put together, kind
together, this ad hoc breakfastafter the last day and we had
heads from the US HempRoundtable and the US Hemp
Authority attach, the AmericanTrade Association of Cannabis
(11:18):
Hemp, who might be consideredthe polar opposite of the
Roundtable.
We had the Cannabis BeverageAssociation, the cannabis
beverage association the hempbeverage alliance, astm and cia
and cia and and you invited meand you which is awesome, and
our guest next week, uh, scotto'malley from clarity, um, and
(11:41):
just so many other great thoughtleaders, all talking about the
pathway forward for beverage,which I love, but, yeah, all
those people and it was a verycivil conversation.
I don't think there was even anelevated voice, or certainly
not a punch thrown, as one mightexpect, and it's like you get
(12:04):
everyone off LinkedIn for alittle bit and you can actually
be human and have realconversations.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:12):
Well, we don't want to bore people too
much with our gallivantingaround the country.
Maybe we put a pin in this, butbut you know we are recording
this in person and one of thereasons is because I am on my
way to the airport for anothertrip, but this time it is not
for a conference, even thoughI'm going without my family.
So it felt at first like I wasgoing on a work trip.
(12:33):
But I'm actually going to LasVegas to go to the Dead Co shows
.
Ben Larson (12:37):
Oh, it's amazing In the sphere.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:39):
It's at the sphere which I'm so excited
about, On the inside.
Ben Larson (12:42):
I've only seen the outside screen it looks so cool.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:45):
I'm sure that people have seen the pictures
and the videos that people areposting.
And I'm bringing my dad andthis was his request.
He wanted to go, and how do yousay no to that?
So we are going to have a greattime.
I've got great dinnerreservations.
We've got a great hotel.
We are going to have a greattime.
(13:05):
I've got great dinnerreservations.
We've got a great hotel.
We are going to have so muchfun.
So I'm really pumped to go toVegas and see the dad.
Ben Larson (13:11):
I can't wait to hear how it goes.
I'm you're inspiring me.
I want to take my dad.
Do you know how long they'replaying there for?
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:18):
Oh yeah, they extended there's.
There's some shows that go allthe way into August.
It's like they're doing thesethree night weekend runs
thursday, friday and saturdayand they're doing them every
weekend, at least well into july.
Ben Larson (13:32):
You can totally take your dad yeah, the geek in me
just needs to go.
I just want to know what it'slike to like choreograph the
artwork for that amazing screenthat they have.
I know that must be like a hugeendeavor in its own.
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:46):
Yeah, it sounds so cool and I'll blow up
my dad's spot a little bit.
Last night, when we were on thephone talking about packing,
his question to me was so canyou smoke weed inside?
Ben Larson (14:00):
the sphere.
AnnaRae Grabstein (14:00):
Great question.
And I was like well, I'm sureit's technically against the
rules, but whether it'sculturally acceptable or not,
like remains to be seen.
And he said, ok, well then,I'll bring a vape pen.
And I was like solid choice.
Ben Larson (14:17):
I mean if the visual effects team is doing their job
.
They'll just have a lot ofsmoke machines at the right time
and the crowd will understandthe assignment yeah, absolutely,
uh, so um biggest news incannabis that's on your mind uh
well, uh well, let's start withcalifornia.
(14:38):
We're sitting in california.
We have our lovely, uh,california bear right here.
When I saw the article releasedit kind of made me think of
VapeGate.
So VapeGate Part Deux, andwe're talking about Alex
Halperin and I forget the otherauthor's name in the LA Times
(15:00):
releasing a pretty in-depthinvestigative report on
pesticides being present in vapecarts across the regulated
marketplace in California, whichI haven't heard of negative
(15:21):
impacts from these pesticidesbeing in the vapes.
But, as we know, withpesticides sometimes it's a long
lasting impacts and all thiskind of stuff.
And it was pretty salacious.
You know the the, theingredients that people are
using.
They might not be on aCalifornia list but they're on
on a federal ban list.
So, like, who's at fault comesinto, comes into mind, but I
(15:42):
don't know.
There's just a.
You know as a company that sitsat the intersection of hemp and
regulated cannabis.
Yeah, it's like, wow, it's likethere's a lot of stones being
thrown in both directions andthis is just not a good look and
(16:04):
, frankly, the cannabis industryis in such turmoil, especially
in California, that reallydoesn't need this kind of bad
press at the moment.
So, yeah, I'm kind of curious,you know, as someone who's been
very involved with the supplychain over the years, like what
was your initial reaction?
AnnaRae Grabstein (16:24):
Yeah, oh my gosh, so many reactions and so
much confusion about what myreal high level takeaway is.
But yeah, I have started myabove ground cannabis career in
the lab space and then came upin vertically integrated company
(16:44):
that was very focused on indoorcultivation.
My community of has always beendeep in cultivation in
California and, um, the firstthing I did when I read this
report was sort of question.
(17:05):
It of like how how much can wetrust these lab results that are
part of the investigation?
How much can we trust these labresults that are part of the
investigation?
We know that all the productsthat come to the shelf in legal
retail have been tested.
So what this report is sayingis that those results were bogus
or that they also are notcovering enough in terms of the
(17:31):
type of analysis that's that'sbeing done to to determine, like
, what is present in thesesubstances and and so that was.
It was just I was immediatelyquestioning of it because I feel
protective of cultivators and Iknow that cultivators and I
can't speak for all of them, butthe ones that I know and the
(17:53):
ones that I work with are goodpeople that care about what
they're doing.
They have tremendous pride inthe plants that they're growing
and they consider their farmingtechniques to be the cleanest
that are out there.
People often talk about theCalifornia.
Cannabis is cleaner than thanorganic food because of the
(18:13):
restrictions around pesticides.
So I just I didn't want tobelieve, to be honest, that what
this report said was real, butafter a few days of processing
it, I I have come to believethat it probably is the case.
That's at least some of thetest results that they put forth
(18:34):
in the article is probably true.
I'm not.
I'm not yelling fake news fromthe corner, but really what I
started to think about was how?
But?
But why?
What is the environment thathas created the situation where
a cultivator is using pesticides?
Because no legal farm inCalifornia sets out and intends
(18:59):
to use pesticides.
If it's happening, it'shappening out of desperation,
because there is some type ofimpact happening in the
cultivation, like a bug or mold,or something is happening that
they're trying to control and tosave the harvest.
And when you have a farm and ora grow room and all of a sudden
(19:21):
, a bug becomes present or sometype of mildew or powdery mildew
shows up, I think that thatwhat you're what you're doing is
you're weighing the risks andthe rewards, and and I think
that what you're doing is you'reweighing the risks and the
rewards and I think that one ofthe things that is my biggest
takeaway as I process this isthat cultivators have become
increasingly desperate and, as aresult, very few are winning
(19:44):
and very few have financialsecurity, and the lack of
financial security is causingpeople to take desperate
(20:04):
measures, and I'm not sayingthat those desperate measures
are okay.
Ben Larson (20:09):
I'm just simply saying that I think that it's
symptomatic of a larger problemyeah, yeah, the concerning
factor to me is that, right orwrong, the regulators actually
have not acted on complaintsthat they've received and that
(20:30):
was identified in the article.
And there's like products thatcould have been taken off the
market, that were tainted,supposedly um or allegedly um,
and the dcc did nothing about it, and you know I've seen a
little bit of chatter online.
It's like we pay an inordinateamount in taxes, in licensing
(20:52):
fees, every year and like to nothave like the industry
supported with the regulationthat we pay for, and when I say
supported, I mean like upholdingthe image of the regulated
market, the real californiacannabis market, as they have
spent 60 million dollars on a,on a marketing campaign for like
(21:15):
it's a total stain.
Uh, on the on the regulators, Ifeel um, which I'm not pointing
out to any particular regulator.
It's, you know it's, it's a,it's a complicated
infrastructure.
I know um, and we've had, youknow, certain regulators on as
(21:35):
guests, and so I'm not.
You know it's a complicatedinfrastructure, I know and we've
had, you know, certainregulators on as guests.
AnnaRae Grabstein (21:44):
And so I'm not pointing the figure at any
one person, but the construct ispretty fucked up at this point.
Yeah, so what you'rehighlighting is a lack of
enforcement, and you're rightand I maybe have said this
before on this podcast.
I certainly say it all the timein my work with clients as that
compliance is a spectrum, itisn't black and white.
And and within that spectrum,when a licensee, a licensed
cannabis business, is assessingthe spectrum of compliance, of
(22:10):
of how to participate insomething that might at first
seem black and white, the firstplace you go is the likelihood
of compliance, of how toparticipate in something that
might at first seem black andwhite.
The first place you go is thelikelihood of enforcement.
And so when you're trying todecide, in that desperate moment
, when you maybe have bugs inyour grow and you're trying to
decide, okay, I am faced withtwo choices here.
I'm faced with either my entirecrop becoming loss.
(22:31):
I'm faced with either my entirecrop becoming loss or having to
use a potentially bannedsubstance to save my crop.
What do I do?
Ben Larson (22:52):
Well, within that really complex and shitty
decision.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:54):
You then think about well, if I do the
thing that technically isagainst the rules, what might
happen and then if the outcomeof what might happen is likely
nothing, then it's a lot morelikely that someone's going to
choose that path because thereisn't a fear of enforcement.
I'm not over here waving theflag for more enforcement, but
(23:14):
you're right that when theregulatory groups that are
supposed to be enforcing thelaws don't it, it makes the
likelihood of participants inthe market choosing to comply
with those rules less likely.
Ben Larson (23:32):
Yeah, yeah, I.
I'm particularly sensitive toit because there's another
California agency that has beenputting out salacious messaging
around the safety around THCbeverages and they're just it's
a lot of fear mongering that isgoing on and they're actually
doing some enforcement and it'slike if you're going to enforce
(23:55):
these rules where actuallytechnically there's very little
potential for harm, if not none,I guess you can't say none from
a probability standpoint.
But in this particular caseit's like these are like proven
carcinogens, right?
Um?
(24:15):
Which quick sidebar do you know?
Jill from Willow Um, is that?
Is this, as you, theremediation, uh technology that
she has?
Is this a potential use case?
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:28):
I don't know.
My understanding is it has moreto do with microbiological
contamination and not pesticides.
Okay, but Jill reach out to us.
Ben Larson (24:37):
Jill, you want to be on the show?
Yeah, come on.
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:40):
Yeah, tell us about it.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I totallyunderstand why it feels
incredibly frustrating to have agovernment agency saying that
that an edible that isn'tcombusting, you know is, is
potentially unsafe when they'renot enforcing the rules that
(25:01):
exist.
Right, so, absolutely, I thinkI.
I guess, luckily, there havebeen no adverse events that have
been reported as a result ofthis and I I hope that there are
none Like.
The last thing that we want isany kind of public health or
safety problem to come up, andmy takeaway is that the
(25:24):
brokenness of an over-regulatedenvironment like California is
trying to manage through has alot of unintended consequences
in terms of trickle-down effects, of operator choices, and this
is a bad choice that people arebeing forced to make because
(25:46):
they haven't been able torealize successful businesses
that can help them to have morefreedom to make good decisions.
And I'm certainly not trying tosay that it's okay if people
choose to use a pesticide, but Ithink it is important to
understand the environment thatputs people in the situation
that they're forced to make thatchoice, or they feel forced to
(26:08):
make that choice, forced to makethat choice.
So, yeah, I mean, and and Ihope it doesn't become vape,
vape gate, part de.
So if you're out there andyou're listening and you're a
cultivator and you want to sharewith us any of the insights
that you have about this, Iwould be interested to hear what
(26:28):
cultivators think about thepesticide rules and how they
could be improved, changed.
You know if they're working, ifthey're not.
Yeah, those voices matter inthis conversation.
Ben Larson (26:43):
Okay, all right.
Well, let's pick up the mood alittle bit.
Let's go over to the East Coast.
Oh yeah, maryland, maryland,157,000, 175,000, 175 sorry
dyslexia, uh, 175,000, umpardons, pardons, that's huge by
(27:05):
governor westmore, go westmorewe need more, more more more,
more so cool.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:16):
It was so exciting to to hear this news
this week and it's such a bignumber.
Ben Larson (27:24):
Maryland is not a huge state and I think in
comparison, we got reallyexcited the other month when
Minnesota pardoned 68,000.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:33):
Something like that, I believe.
Ben Larson (27:35):
So yeah, more than two times that in a smaller
state.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:39):
Yeah, and so when you definitely smaller by?
Physical size by land mass yeah, I think there are probably
more people in Maryland, but I'mnot sure.
Ben Larson (27:49):
So on fact check.
AnnaRae Grabstein (27:50):
Yeah, but come on now, Like.
So the Biden administrationmade a pretty big deal about
about the ways that they weregoing to um expunge people's
records, and my understanding isthat it has been less than
10,000 people who have benefitedby those efforts.
(28:13):
So that has been a bunch of lipservice, and to see Wes Moore
take this flag and carry itforward gives me a lot of hope
that there is a generation ofyounger politicians that truly
understand the work to be doneto get cannabis off people's
(28:36):
records, Like let's be done.
Let's have that be in therearview mirror right.
Ben Larson (28:40):
Yeah, well, it's a huge step, and for it to happen
this week while Juneteenth ishappening and just kind of every
step that we can take to kindof reverse the impacts of the
war on drugs, is huge.
So huge applause to Maryland.
More of that, please, yeah, andhopefully that starts to
(29:03):
infiltrate the federaldiscussion a little bit.
AnnaRae Grabstein (29:06):
Absolutely.
I love it.
Now let's from Maryland, let'stravel south.
Let's talk about Florida for aminute.
Ben Larson (29:14):
Ah, the Sunshine State.
Is that right?
Is that what it's called?
Yeah, I think it's the SunshineBridge, right?
Yeah?
AnnaRae Grabstein (29:20):
Sunshine State and also another call out.
We want to have a solid Floridastakeholder on the show to talk
in more depth about Florida inthe coming weeks leading up to
the election in Florida.
So if that's, you, let us know.
But there, yeah, there was abunch of interesting things that
have been happening in Floridathe last couple of weeks, but
(29:42):
the one that that made theheadlines this week is the
Cannabis, which is a public MSO,previously called Columbia Care
, announced that they arepulling out of Florida,
divesting, selling their assetsthere.
And, to remind people that arelistening, in Florida it is a
very limited medical marketwhere there are less than 30
(30:06):
companies that have licenses andthose are strictly vertical
licenses, fully closed supplychain.
Those businesses don't eventransact with each other except
under very specific and kind ofunique circumstances.
So when you are a Floridaoperator, you grow everything
that you sell, everything thatyou manufacture and that
trickles down into your ownretail footprint, and so it's a
(30:31):
big move because, in general,the companies that are in
Florida and the market hasviewed Florida as kind of a
golden crown, so to speak,because that vertical
environment has led to somepretty insane regulatory and
(30:54):
legislative capture for thosebusinesses that have been
participating, and Trulieve isthe one that people know about
the most in terms of the levelof scale that they've achieved
there with over 150 stores.
Wow, the Cannabis only has 14stores in Florida.
So you look at that scale.
Of that, trulieve is 10x plusbigger than them, but they've
(31:20):
been losing just in Q1 of 2024.
They lost $5 million in Floridaand so getting out of Florida
makes sense, I guess, but at thesame time there's a lot of
people that were looking forwardto Florida transitioning to
adult use, and the publicmarkets have been responding to
a belief that those companiesthat have a foothold in Florida
(31:41):
are going to do well.
So this is notable.
Ben Larson (31:43):
Yeah, yeah.
And the undercurrent of policyin Florida is just really
interesting and everythingDeSantis is doing as far as
vetoing the hemp bill, which inessence kept the kind of
unregulated kind of nature of ofthe of hemp in florida kind of
at least alive for the next year, um, it'll be interesting to
(32:06):
see what happens withregulations, um, as that bill is
revisited in the next session.
And then there's also thecannabis, the recreational
cannabis bill.
AnnaRae Grabstein (32:17):
Yeah, that will be going to voters in
November.
Ben Larson (32:20):
It's a high bar.
It's a 60% vote.
That's necessary and very fewstates have passed with 60%.
AnnaRae Grabstein (32:28):
That's right.
But at the same time, if welook back to when Florida passed
their medical law, which wasalso a voter initiative, it
passed with 72% of the vote,which was the highest percentage
of voter initiative ever passed.
Apparently, I think it wasHirsch, jane, who told us that,
so I'm quoting you, hirsch, onthat, if you want to fact check
me.
(32:48):
But, so medical passed with 72%check me.
But so medical pass was 72%.
So if you compare it to thatand you say, okay, well, if
adult use only needs 60% to passseems possible.
But the polls are showing thatadult use is kind of fluctuating
between 58% and 63%.
So I don't think anyone feelsvery comfortable with that and
(33:09):
we're going to see it play outthat DeSantis is going to come
out strong against the adult usemarket while we're getting a
ton of money inflows into theyes camp through the existing
Florida operators led byTrulieve and then the kind of
the group around Kim Rivers and,yeah, Interesting, I don't know
(33:37):
.
I I have spent a good amount oftime thinking about the Florida
market and, um, if it makessense to be there and and if you
could show up there and as a,as a smaller operator, the way
the cannabis is in that marketand and compete and it it does
really seem like in Florida thename of the cannabis is in that
market and and compete and it itdoes really seem like in
florida the name of the game isa large retail presence and
(33:58):
there is, and in many states, ifyou have 14 retail stores,
that's a very large retailpresence, but not in florida
when you've got a number ofgroups.
Many of those uh operators haveover 50 stores, but then there's
ones that are still reallypushing.
Green Thumb Industriesannounced, I think, that they're
(34:20):
opening their I think it's 17thstore in Florida this week and
so they're still investing,they're still growing.
They have a long way to go tobe able to get to the amount of
stores that Trulieve has, but Ithink Floridians really like
mind-altering substances.
I think it's a culture that hashad a lot of opioid addiction
(34:47):
in the past and also an olderpopulation, and so there has
been a real openness toembracing medical cannabis in
the state and also all of thetourists.
So Florida could be an amazingadult use market.
Ben Larson (35:03):
Absolutely.
I just I am curious as to whatsome of the shareholders are
feeling when they see a proposedhemp bill I felt was pretty
liberal, right, I know there's alot of hemp operators like you
know.
It kills kind of the, the vapecomponent um, but it allowed for
up to like 50 milligrams of thcand kind of you know the the
(35:27):
less regulated market um, andthat's kind of a leaky bucket
problem for this protectedlimited license kind of
structure which I've never beena huge fan of.
So I'll just put it out there.
But for that bill to be vetoed,I'm wondering if they're like,
(35:47):
oh shit, like what's the actualbill going to look like that
eventually does get passed andhow much of it is going to eat
into to the, the revenue of, ofthe regulated marketplace?
AnnaRae Grabstein (36:00):
I think what you're touching on is sort of
this broader question about canstates that have adult use and
open hemp commercialized hempproducts play well together or
are we going to see this likeit's either one or the other?
(36:21):
And we've talked aboutMinnesota a lot.
Minnesota has plans to do both,but they haven't launched adult
use.
So we don't know yet.
It's a really solid point.
It's a solid question.
We just don't have enough datato know.
What I will say of what data wedo have is that consumers
(36:44):
certainly don't understand thedifference small industry niche
and go on LinkedIn and you seeCEOs of companies kind of
calling each other out ordebating this question about if
we should ban hemp or if weshould regulate hemp or what.
(37:06):
Whatever we should do, in theend, what actually matters is
what the consumers understandand how they relate and interact
with and engage in theseproducts.
I was talking to a friend who'sa brand strategist, who lives in
New Jersey and doesn't work incannabis at all and was telling
(37:29):
me about how she went to thisreally fancy wedding in Maine
and that there were celebritiesthere and famous musicians and
it was just super beautiful,well curated, lovely event, and
that they had right next totheir bar they had a table of of
Rose Delights edibles and thatthey were so good and everyone
(37:52):
was enjoying them.
And I was like oh yeah, thoseare hemp and and she was like no
, no, no, I got high from themand and I was like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I know you got high fromthem, Um, but those are, those
are hemp.
And she's like, no, no, I'mpositive, that was THC.
And I was like, yeah, yeah,that's that, that, that is THC.
(38:13):
And I was like, yeah, yeah,that is THC, but that's hemp.
And then I realized, okay, I'mnot going to fight with her.
She is just like so manyconsumers.
She doesn't understand thedifference between hemp and
cannabis and shouldn't beexpected to understand the
(38:34):
difference between hemp andcannabis.
Ben Larson (38:35):
It's an important anecdote, because I've got
another one to layer on top ofit.
Diana Eberlein, from theCannabis Beverage Association,
was telling me this story aboutTAC beverages being at the Grand
Ole Opry and a consumer askingabout, oh, can I have a TAC
beverage?
(38:55):
Asking about like, oh, can I,can I have a thc beverage, and
the the uh guy at the cashierwas, uh, basically like, oh,
those aren't thc, that's hemp.
And that is probably the worstscenario that we could have,
because it's like you're, you'recausing confusion yeah, because
it's both THC and hemp.
Yes, they can exist together.
AnnaRae Grabstein (39:17):
So, yeah, we have a very particular branding
issue here and I think you know,working with Pamela Epstein and
Neil Wellner and you know ASTMon kind of standardizing
packaging and labeling acrossthe segments is hyper important
um yeah, and I think that thatis what american consumers, I
(39:40):
guess and I'll just speak foramerican consumers, but, like
you know, part of living in acivilized society with all of of
these layers of governmentbureaucracy, for better or for
worse like there is an ingrainedcultural belief that when you
buy a product at a store and youpay sales tax on it and it's in
(40:01):
a package, that that issomething that you can trust,
and I think that that's reallyimportant.
And when you talk about you know, back to the original point of
like, well, what might it looklike in Florida if they have a
very open hemp environment andan open adult use space?
And like, I think that, like,ultimately although we're very
(40:23):
far away from it, but you and Iwould both agree that like,
regulating as one plant andregulating cannabinoids is the
most obvious solution.
Like let's stop having to tohorse trade or specify the
difference between hemp andregulated cannabis when we're
talking about the same compoundsinside these products.
We're just so far away fromthat and so we have to take
(40:46):
these incremental steps.
Um, that hopefully will lead usto this, you know, beautiful
rainbow with the pot of gold atthe end, where we have an
integrated supply chain.
At some point that just makessense and is sensible.
But in the meantime, I thinkwe're just going to keep having
complex supply chains tonavigate through, and it's going
(41:09):
to be the company's jobs tohelp consumers to understand
what it is they're consuming,and we're just going to be
playing in this gray space for alittle bit.
Ben Larson (41:20):
Yeah, but I think what we will see and if we can
transition a little bit andit'll be a short segment on just
kind of talking about the FarmBill and where things seemingly
are heading After the CanRACconference conference, it became
very clear that it's like theregulators, the legislators,
(41:41):
everyone knows now, like, whathemp is and that it's not just
rope, that it's potentially dopeas well, um, and they want to
do something about it and so, um, you know, the miller amendment
is problematic for a number ofreasons for the broader hemp
industry and I think there's alot of people who are like we
(42:04):
have to kill this amendment.
I think we need to recognizethat the amendment, from a high
level, is indicative of whereCongress is at on this topic um,
maybe not all of congress, butmany of them and and what was
kind of reiterated over and overagain from a number of
(42:24):
different folks is, like, don'tkill, adapt, like, take it as,
like like an opportunity toengage and understand, like, why
they're trying to implementcertain restrictions and then
identify which of thoserestrictions are problematic and
why and what an alternative isto do it that achieves a certain
(42:46):
end goal, and that end goal isconsumer safety at the end of
the day, and so, as we see,revisions come out and language
(43:21):
come out.
It's about using the differentpieces of the federal government
and the state level governmentsin the ways that they're meant
to be used and putting in thelegislation and the hard work
that needs to be done to get itdone.
And it is going to take yearsto do all this, but it has to
start at some point and it hasto start now.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:40):
Well, we'll see what happens.
Ben Larson (43:42):
We will see.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:43):
Yeah, it's going to be a long road and
there's just so much when itcomes to navigating Washington
and politics of legislation andeven just thinking about, well,
what happens if the farm billdoesn't get moved forward or
(44:06):
have substantive shifts beforethe November election, and and
then all of a sudden we've got awhole bunch of new players, um,
in the senate and in the housethat's not an unlikely situation
exactly and and who?
who are those people and what isgoing to be their approach to
looking at him?
(44:26):
Not to mention like, if, if thewhite house shifts and we have
a different president in in thatchair, it's just there's about
westmore for majority leader ohyeah, westmore for president
maybe vice president, I don'tactually know enough about him,
but I will say that people it'sokay, I'm a single issue voter
yeah, sure, yeah, exactly, umwestmore, you're invited to talk
(44:51):
to us.
We'd love to learn more aboutyou.
Um, yeah, we will see november.
It's going to be here before weknow it and uh and yeah all
right.
Ben Larson (45:03):
Well, uh, we have about five minutes left.
Um, no one again?
Uh, thank everyone forsupporting us over the last year
and three weeks.
Um, it's been an awesome show,um, an array, like we typically
do, last call, like at the endsof the shows, and I'm just
bringing this on to you.
That's why you're looking at melike this.
(45:24):
Uh, I'll stall a little bitmore so you can keep thinking um
, but, yeah, I mean, over thelast year, you know, like, what
have you picked up?
Like, what's your biggesttakeaway?
What do you?
What's your last call?
I guess is what I'm about toask, uh, and what do you want to
leave the people with today?
AnnaRae Grabstein (45:42):
oh my gosh.
Okay, I think I know what mylast call will be, but before I
do make my last call, uh, I wantto also just call you out and
thank you with tremendousgratitude for just being the
behind the scenes producer ofall of this to everybody that's
listening, like we do not havean editor.
(46:05):
Well, we have an editor, but hisname is Ben Larson and he's
also a CEO and has a whole teamof people that rely on him, and
we've just made, um, made, a lotwith a little, and, uh, I could
not have done it without you sothank you so much.
Ben Larson (46:21):
It's been really fun and um we're not gonna stop
shout out to belinda on my teamfor making us look great in the
digital sphere absolutely um andokay, last call, and what have
I?
AnnaRae Grabstein (46:33):
and the last call focused specifically on
what I've learned this last yeardoing this podcast, and a huge
takeaway has been how far theconversations that we are having
have traveled and have impactedpeople.
And I think that the last callis just to never underestimate
(46:57):
the impact that small actionscan have on business, on people
and on opportunities.
We have seen that conversationsthat we have started on this
podcast have led to policychange, have led to business
partnerships, have led tofriendships, new connections,
(47:23):
and it has just been endlesslyreinforcing to hear from all of
our listeners about the impactthat this content has made on
their lives.
So, yeah, just try new things,get out there and don't be
afraid and be open to the theways that that small actions can
(47:45):
have a domino effect in theworld.
Ben Larson (47:47):
I love that.
I love that.
Um, I'll offer my own.
Uh, just cause I.
Just because I was listening tothis great podcast this morning
, adam Grant.
He was interviewing RichardBranson and they had this whole
segment about how you treatpeople and how that is
(48:08):
indicative of how you will be asa leader, and this one quote I
pulled was how do you interactwith people who can do you no
good?
And another way to say is likehow you treat anyone is how you
treat everyone, and it's a kindof a look into the soul of the
person.
And I think what I appreciateabout you and what we both try
(48:31):
to put out in the world is justthat goodness without
expectations, and that's whywe've named the show High
Spirits, it's why we go aboutthe world that way we do, and
I've just really enjoyed thisjourney so far with you and look
forward to many years to come.
AnnaRae Grabstein (48:50):
Okay, we're not supposed to cry, but yeah,
thanks, and for everybody, let'sread it out All right, well,
and thank all of you, obviously.
Ben Larson (49:01):
Yeah, seriously, it's huge.
Thank you to our teams.
Bertosa and Wolfmeyer, you know, let us know what you think.
Who would you like to have onthe show?
We have many more episodes tocome.
Next week we have ScottO'Malley from Clarity it's a THC
beverage brand based out ofMinnesota and, yeah, a lot of
great things to come.
We're also this morning talkingabout the morning mixer coming
(49:24):
up in Las Vegas.
I'm just going to put it outthere.
It's happening.
That's how we do things.
We say things and then we haveto do it.
Anyways, until next time, folks, stay curious, stay informed
and keep your spirits high.
Until next time, that's theshow.
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