🌿 𝐑𝐞𝐚𝐜𝐡𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐏𝐞𝐚𝐤 𝐏𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝟐𝟎𝟐𝟓: 𝐋𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐄𝐝𝐠𝐞 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐌𝐞𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐞 𝐂𝐮𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐬 🌿
Dive into a thrilling new episode of 𝗛𝗶𝗴𝗵 𝗦𝗽𝗶𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘀 as we explore the intersection of peak performance in high-stakes environments with Melanie Curtis, a professional skydiver, world record holder, and acclaimed performance coach. Join us as we unravel the parallels between excelling in extreme sports and thriving in the volatile cannabis industry.
🚀 𝗔𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗘𝗽𝗶𝘀𝗼𝗱𝗲: Melanie Curtis brings her unique expertise from thousands of skydives and high-impact coaching sessions to discuss what it takes to achieve peak performance in any field. We'll discuss a wide range of topics from managing change, bravery in decision-making, and the art of leadership in uncertain times to practical advice on stress management, overcoming fear, and maintaining mental clarity amidst chaos.
💡 𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗬𝗼𝘂'𝗹𝗹 𝗟𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗻:
𝑷𝒖𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑬𝒅𝒈𝒆𝒔: How pushing boundaries in skydiving translates to innovation in cannabis.
𝑬𝒏𝒕𝒓𝒆𝒑𝒓𝒆𝒏𝒆𝒖𝒓𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒑 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑩𝒓𝒂𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒚: The courage required to start new ventures and make tough decisions.
𝑯𝒊𝒈𝒉 𝑺𝒕𝒂𝒌𝒆𝒔 𝑴𝒂𝒏𝒂𝒈𝒆𝒎𝒆𝒏𝒕: Strategies for navigating volatility in cannabis.
𝑰𝒏𝒗𝒆𝒔𝒕𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒊𝒏 𝑶𝒖𝒓𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒗𝒆𝒔: The importance of self-care and continuous learning for sustained high performance.
𝑻𝒆𝒂𝒎𝒘𝒐𝒓𝒌 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑻𝒓𝒖𝒔𝒕: Building and maintaining trust within teams to achieve common goals.
𝑶𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒄𝒐𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝑭𝒆𝒂𝒓: Techniques to conquer fear and harness it to fuel growth and success.
🌟 𝗠𝗲𝗲𝘁 𝗠𝗲𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗲 𝗖𝘂𝗿𝘁𝗶𝘀: Melanie's life mission goes beyond skydiving. She leverages her experiences to coach individuals and teams on achieving their highest potential, making her a sought-after speaker and consultant. With her vibrant energy and profound insights, Melanie inspires audiences to embrace challenges and transform their lives and workplaces.
📚 Books mentioned in this episode:
-Man's Search For Meaning
-The Four Agreements
-The Power of Habit
-Atomic Habits
-No Bad Parts
--
High Spirits is brought to you by Vertosa and Wolf Meyer.
Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.
Follow High Spirits on LinkedIn.
We'd love to hear your thoughts. Who would you like to see on the show? What topics would you like to have us cover?
Visit our website www.highspirits.media and listen to all of our past shows.
THANK YOU to our audience. Your engagement encourages us to keep bringing you these thought-provoking conversations.
Remember to always stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:05):
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Ben Larson (00:50):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 73 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and, as always,I'm joined today by Anna Rae
Grabstein.
It's Thursday, january 16th,2025.
And we've got another greatshow for you today, going a
little off script and talkingabout how you can reach peak
(01:12):
performance in 2025.
We'll get to that in a littlebit, but I'm going to check in
with my co host and just see howthings are going this week.
And, ray, how are you today?
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:24):
how things are going this week.
Anna Rae, how are you today?
Thanks for asking and alwayscaring.
I am good.
I am really excited for theshow that we're having today and
it's a little departure for us.
As you mentioned talking aboutleadership and peak performance,
when we started this podcast,we almost called it leading in
cannabis, if you remember.
Ben Larson (01:44):
It's still on my calendar.
Our prep calls are still on mycalendars, Leading in Cannabis.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:48):
Exactly Because leadership really
matters to both of us, and nowwe get to focus on it today.
Say yeah, how are you doing?
Ben Larson (01:58):
I'm good.
I'm good.
It's my birthday this weekend,so I'm excited about this.
It's my 44th birthday, which myfavorite number is 22.
And so this is 22 times two,which means this year is going
to be a big year for me.
So double the fun.
Double the fun.
And yeah, I don't know, I'mfeeling pretty great coming into
(02:19):
this.
You know, I've stuck with myworkout routine, as many have
seen on LinkedIn, and yeah, Idon't know, I just feel like
this is.
Last year was a great year, butthis is going to be the year
and I'm really excited abouthaving this conversation today
because, yeah, I don't know, I'mpumped up for it.
I want to give myself all thetools to really make it happen.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:40):
Yeah Well, we usually do a bit of a news
rundown.
I think we don't have to go toodeep today, but there is one
thing that I think is worthmentioning before we jump in to
our main conversation today.
And that's yeah, it's the delaywith the Schedule 3 hearings
with the.
Ben Larson (02:58):
D Good.
That was top of my list too.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:01):
Yeah, you know, this touches basically all
of our listeners that operatein the cannabis space and, um,
some think it's good news.
I feel like it's bad news,mostly because I'm impatient for
progress and I want to see thishappen.
Uh, but basically what'shappened is that the
(03:23):
administrative law judge thatwas overseeing the hearings to
determine the next step in theprogression from Schedule 1 to
Schedule 3 has delayed thehearings for 90 days or
indefinitely.
This is coming as a result of apro-reform group led by Shane
(03:47):
Pennington, who's a lawyer, aprominent lawyer in the space
saying that the DEA was notactually acting in the best
interest of policy change.
Ben Larson (04:03):
So he's trying to protect progress, but what it's
doing is also slowing downprogress, which is the
double-edged sword here.
Yeah, krishid Koja, who Imentioned previously
representing NCIA and the lawyerwho's really kind of engaged
with this, has put out a prettyscathing op-ed about this.
Actually, it's pretty cannabiscontroversial, but basically
saying that this lawsuit is justproof that there's many people
(04:25):
in the industry that haven'ttaken the time to understand the
process and that this was howthese hearings were intended to
be structured, based on the DEAprocess, and so it indeed is
just like an unnecessary delayin what was otherwise going to
push the conversation forwardunnecessary delay and what was
(04:47):
otherwise going to push theconversation forward.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:51):
Yeah, look, you know, in my work I have a
few different retailers that areour clients and 280E is torture
.
280e is a tax penalty that ismost difficult for retailers in
the industry, but it's hard foreverybody and it makes it so
that all cannabis businessesaren't able to write off their
general business expensesoutside of cost of goods sold,
(05:12):
and it is a penalty that canmake it so that cannabis
businesses just can't beprofitable, which is actually a
good segue into the conversationaround leadership, because it's
really one of the largestchallenges that executives in
the space have to face and tomanage is how to build
businesses that can sustainthemselves within massive,
(05:32):
massive tax penalties that otherbusinesses outside of our space
don't face, and it feels unfairand it feels unmanageable, and
this has been the path to ending280e.
There are other paths and, uh,I believe that in my lifetime we
(05:53):
will see a clear path, but I'vegot a lot of life ahead of me
and I would like to live lifewith this penalty over.
So, please, please, please,let's, let's have some progress
here, folks.
Ben Larson (06:04):
Amen, yeah it's, it's unfortunate, but you know,
here we are.
This is kind of part and parcelwith with the cannabis industry
.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:13):
All right.
Well, anything else that youwant to bring up on the news
front before we bring on Melanieno, I'd rather get my, my
emotions going in the oppositedirection.
Ben Larson (06:22):
That sounds great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:22):
Let's do that .
So I will cue this up.
I am so excited to welcomeMelanie Curtis.
She's both a friend, but evenmore importantly, she's a
professional skydiver, a worldrecord holder and acclaimed life
coach who has spent her careerpushing the edges of what's
possible, both in extreme sportsand helping people thrive in
(06:44):
high stakes environments.
She's worked with individualsand teams on navigating change,
overcoming fear and achievingpeak performance.
So, in the face of lots ofuncertainty in cannabis, Melanie
, we are so thrilled to bringyou on and welcome you to our
show today.
Melanie Curtis (07:01):
I love it.
I'm super happy to be here.
I'm fired up to be thedeparture from your normal.
I hear a lot.
The tone of genre busting issort of stuff that I bring to
the table sometimes because theskydiving thing is so weird and
it's like how is that relatable?
(07:23):
And yet you get into it.
And it's like how is thatrelatable?
And yet you get into it andit's like there's a lot that can
be extracted from a universalperspective.
But yeah, thanks so much forhaving me.
I love it.
Ben Larson (07:32):
Amazing and not too weird.
Just last week we had anotherskydiver on who holds a world
record.
But in the continuity of that,what is the world record that
you hold for skydiving?
Melanie Curtis (07:44):
Continuity of that.
What is the world record thatyou hold for skydiving?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I was a member of thewomen's vertical world record
team.
So in 2022, basically, we had100 women jumping out of five
different aircraft, going 200miles upside down head to earth,
building a predeterminedformation from 20,000 feet.
It is a ridiculous,mind-boggling thing and it
(08:08):
cannot be achieved withoutindividual peak performance and
actually team peak performanceas well.
So it's like that phrase can bea little bit buzzwordy.
You know what I mean.
What is peak performance?
But when you get into examplesof it and what actually, I am
infinitely honestly fascinatedby the edges of human potential
(08:30):
and entrepreneurially also,which is what I think is so
alive about the cannabis space,is that clearly there's edge
pushing here.
Clearly you're like breakingnew ground.
There's, you know, you're inuncharted territory, like
completely, and so uh, yeah,anyway, a lot, of, a lot of what
(08:50):
we talk about in sort of mykeynote speaking stuff I'm
hopeful is going to be usefulfor your audience and so you do
keynote speaking, and then youalso have a life coaching
practice.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:02):
Talk a little bit about what that is.
Melanie Curtis (09:04):
Yeah, Well, my life coaching, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know God, life coaching.
I've been doing that about 20years and it is still some of
the most fulfilling work that Ido.
And I talk about that because Ilove, deeply love people.
(09:26):
You know how people are like,oh, what's your purpose?
This and that, Bar none,forever.
I have just loved people deeply.
I'm deeply fascinated by thehuman experience and so when I
get to and I mean that when Iget to be the person holding the
space with deep curiosity, withcomplete non-judgment and
(09:50):
really helping a person have aspace where they can feel truly
safe to explore what's in theirway, or explore what they are
actually interested in, whatthey're dreaming about I mean, I
don't even really talk aboutdreaming that much, but it's
again this idea of helpingpeople expand, whether it's in
(10:11):
the kind of conversational spacethat we share together, but in
so doing we find goals, we findthe pieces of what they're
interested in, what's alive forthem, what conflicts are at play
, all this stuff like gettinginto the nitty gritty of
people's lives and selves.
(10:33):
I really feel like it's anhonor to get to do that for
people, and I'm a relentlessteammate.
I don't mess around and I lovemy people a lot.
Ben Larson (10:45):
Like I don't mess around and I love my people a
lot.
Man, I love this.
And you know we're at thebeginning of the year and we set
all these expectations for theyear, and so, as a CEO, I'm
doing a lot of one-on-ones withthe leaders in my team and, you
know, trying to set the stage toget the most out of them and
have them achieve what they wantthis year.
Have them achieve what they wantthis year, and you know, I
introduced the idea of of havingthis big, hairy, audacious goal
(11:13):
, a personal one for them, sothat they're not necessarily
setting a new year's resolutionthat they'll forget about in a
month, but that they're actuallydriving towards something all
year.
But I love that idea of sittingdown with someone and really
getting them to open up andreflect on everything their,
their, you know, their theiridiosyncrasies, their, their
strengths, their weaknesses andand building up from there and
(11:34):
so kind of, in the vein ofholding that space for people,
what are some of the tactics orquestions you you ask to really
kind of set the stage for thatinner work.
I think that's the hardest partis getting someone to settle
down and get centered and taketheir armor off.
Melanie Curtis (11:59):
Yeah for sure that a person in a
hierarchically definedleadership role there will be
undeniably a leadership powerdynamic there, so that leader
needs to acknowledge that assimply a truth.
(12:21):
And so the expectation that aperson might just open up to
them because they've decidedthey're going to ask some soft
skills questions and suddenlythey're accessible, like that,
that's built over time andthrough cultural action.
This is one of the things thatI talk about relative to the
(12:42):
world record.
It's sort of this interestinglittle side story.
I wish I had photos to share,but you'll get the picture.
But the idea that we talk a lotin business about culture.
You hear that all the time oh,what's your culture?
What's your culture?
I got a ping pong table, cool,awesome, we're so cool and hip.
But really, when we talk aboutit relationally, it's like what
(13:06):
does emotional safety,psychological safety, look like?
So we talk a lot about culture,but we don send memes, funny
(13:26):
memes or reels to your friendsor loved ones or people in your
life.
Have you heard that term?
That's a new term for me.
Yeah, so it's basically thisnotion that I'm going to stay
connected to.
Oh, anna Rae, you're my friend.
Oh, I saw this meme that mademe think of you, or this is a
(13:50):
funny thing and it relates tosomething we talked about.
It's a small way.
I'm not suggesting necessarilythat this is a full-on
leadership tactic, but it is away to maintain connection with
people in our intimate sphere.
And so, anyway, the worldrecord it's sort of a flower
shape and it's built with abunch of different circles.
Flower shape and it's builtwith a bunch of different
circles, and my circle it'scalled a pod was E-Pod, like A,
b, c, d, e, and E-Pod was theonly pod of the entire record
(14:14):
that was was the same.
That never changed.
There you go.
That never changed from thefirst jump to the last jump.
So there's something there likewell, what was going on in EPOD
such that we were able tomaintain our peak performance
through the end?
And I tell this story about myfriend Kate, and she was a part
(14:35):
of EPOD, and I talk about my ownstructure around, taking my
fear and bringing it from hereto here to here.
By having structures in placeand routines in place, I show up
at the same time, I put my gearin the same place, I eat the
same thing every day.
All those things sort of helpme feel a sense of control when
(14:58):
I'm in an environment that isfar out of my control.
And we can relate this tobusiness a lot, because business
, there's people, there's themarket, there's so many things
that we cannot ever control.
That it's like how do we get asense for a baseline of what we
can control but then how thathelps us weather the stress that
(15:21):
comes with what we can't?
So anyway, kate and I, everyday I would get a BLT because I
just like them.
Ben Larson (15:28):
I love.
Melanie Curtis (15:28):
BLTs.
I love BLTs, right, and soevery day I would get my BLT and
be like snap a dorky selfie andjust text it to Kate, who I
knew was kind of managing herown fears around the world
record, like everyone on theentire team is, and I sent her a
bunch of selfies and then bythe fourth day she took a selfie
(15:51):
with her BLT and sent it to me.
It's a simple, stupid littlestory, but it shows the more
intimacy of like I don'tnecessarily have to be freaking
out, asking for coaching how didI do this?
Or that.
I can actually relax into alittle bit of my light, funnier
(16:11):
self because I know that I'm onpoint with what I need to have
on point for the more intensestuff.
AnnaRae Grabstein (16:18):
Melanie, what you're touching on is bringing
up so many bridges for me intothe leadership work that Ben and
I talk about on this show as itrelates to the volatility.
It's like you're highlightingthe importance of these little
moments of personal connectionwithin the face of tremendous
volatility, fear, uncertainty,and how those moments of
(16:43):
personal connection what itsounds like can build like a
stronger foundation for peopleto be able to get through like
really hard times together.
Melanie Curtis (16:52):
Yeah, for sure.
AnnaRae Grabstein (16:54):
In.
In our industry, there is justconstant shifts.
At the top of the hour, we aretalking about issues going on
with tax policy.
The cannabis industry has beenemerging for the past 10 years
and it's a unique space becausepeople have been consuming
(17:14):
cannabis for thousands of years,and so there's this movement
through business and laws andregulation, of taking this thing
that's been in existence inhuman patterns and in their
consciousness for a long timeand then trying to put it into
this legal framework and withinthat legal framework.
(17:34):
Then there is capital thatcomes in and there's business
opportunities and professionalopportunities and there's a
clash with culture.
It's like all of these thingsare happening all at the same
time, and we've got CEOs andfounders that are trying to
create certainty, because thatis their job as a leader is to
(17:57):
create some level of consistencyfor their teams, for their
investors, for the markets thatare supporting them, to believe
that they're like carrying aplan forward.
That's clear, but yet there'sall this uncertainty all around,
and so I guess you know ifthere's a question in all of
that for you.
(18:18):
It's like how do you take allof this uncertainty in the world
and channel it into somethingto be able to like push
boundaries and createopportunities around a plan Like
how do you create a plan wheneverything is so crazy and wild?
Melanie Curtis (18:35):
Oh God, well, I mean, if I had the exact answer
to that, I would certainly tellyou.
Well, I mean, if I had theexact answer to that, I would
certainly tell you.
But I think it's so importantto talk about that because one
thing I say a lot is certaintyis very seductive, right,
Because it feels good to be likeI got it under control, like
(18:56):
this is going to happen.
I don't have to worry about allthese 8,000 million things that
are also going on that arepotentially going to change our
path.
You know, so it's.
I've seen this with clients overthe years where they'll declare
, right, this, this sense ofcertainty about a thing, but
really it's, it's fear, right?
So if we get and we talk aboutfear and we talk about, okay,
(19:19):
how can we actually improve inthese spaces?
We have to, I think, buildskills around fear.
So I briefly mentioned about,like, what are the systems,
structures, routines that helpme in a high stakes situation or
an intense environment, bringmy fear down?
That's one thing, but alsorelative to things that we can't
(19:41):
control genuinely, genuinelyworking on detachment from
outcome, right, like that is acore emotional mindset skill
that, without it, will justconsistently get triggered when
in the fate and again beingtriggered is normal.
It's inherently human right.
(20:02):
Feeling fear is inherentlyhuman.
To briefly go back to tie inwhat, ben, you were saying
earlier uh, relative to the likeha ha ha, blt, emotional
intimacy thing, the other kindsof communication that's going on
, where that lightness is, thereis also a richer space where
people can share that they areafraid, where they can show up
(20:26):
and ask for feedback onsomething they're not sure
they're doing right, right Likethat.
That whole, like what does itlook like to be emotionally safe
, psychologically safe, or youknow what I mean, like a truly
accessible leader is that sortof space where people can admit
that they don't know.
(20:46):
They can admit that whenthey've sort of made mistakes,
they can feel like they're notgoing to be fired or get in
trouble if they have made amistake.
Right, and I want to say thistoo, because this can all sound
really fluffy and lovely andwarm.
But the other side of that isthat I'm not talking about not
(21:08):
having super high integrity.
Right Like you have a businessto run.
There are hard decisions thatneed to be made, doing a world
record.
Sometimes people get cut andthat stinks, but those are some
of the hard decisions that haveto be made in order for the
ultimate success of the largerteam and the bigger mission, and
so that's important to thinkabout too.
(21:31):
But trust that if I am being inhigh integrity and being that
sort of safe, emotionally, sortof gentle, as it were leader,
but having real clear boundariesaround what's okay, what's high
integrity, what's not, thenpeople will trust you because
they'll know that they're goingto get the feedback that they
(21:53):
need from you and they're alsogoing to be safe in when they
share about what's going on forthem.
Ben Larson (21:59):
Okay.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:03):
Ben.
Ben Larson (22:04):
I want to do a quick follow-up here.
Melanie Curtis (22:05):
Yeah, I got it because you, you, I mean, I can
riff.
I didn't answer your question.
Please tell me again.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:13):
But I think that it's really important,
because the idea of letting goof an outcome is very central to
a lot of different like healing, recovery formulas, frameworks,
right, but within the contextof business, I think it can be
complicated, because there's astrong need to have goals that
(22:37):
can align people around outcomes, and so I'd love to hear your
perspective on the idea ofletting go of an outcome while
still having a goal.
Melanie Curtis (22:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's super importantdistinction.
I love that you're we'repulling on that thread a bit
more because it's superimportant.
When I say detachment from theoutcome to people who have not
heard it first, like in earlyprofessional development work, I
almost always get that type ofquestion back where it's like
whoa well, how can I, you know?
(23:09):
And understandably a personwould be like how can I not care
about the outcome?
I do, you know, and socompletely valid, totally
validate that the distinction.
The thing to think aboutrelative to that is it's
short-term versus long, but it'salso, I mean, gosh if we take
it also to a spiritualperspective.
(23:30):
That's a bit higher level metapiece of the conversation, but
it is a part of it.
But down in the more workablerange of detachment from the
outcome is it's this idea thatwe know that here's the outcome,
here's where we are.
We know there's a ton of stuffin here.
(23:50):
What might derail us, the howwe get to the outcome or
whatever we are convicted toliving into as a business or
(24:11):
whatever.
We have to be open to thoseshifts along the path.
And the bigger picture is likeobviously at some point there
might be a question around whatactually the goal is right.
The goal may shift because newinformation comes in, because
different opportunities emerge.
(24:32):
But I mean I could go on and onabout all this stuff because it
really genuinely excites me ifyou can't tell on about all this
stuff, because it reallygenuinely excites me if you
can't tell.
But the last thing I'll sayabout the outcome and sort of
how do we then actually do thatemotionally, literally, with
accountability is that we commitfully.
(24:57):
There's so much power If wetalk about peak performance and
doing big things, having biggoals, running a business that
we don't know how to runcommitting fully that, no matter
what you're going to dowhatever you can to get to that
thing, that is power.
That comes only when you 100% Imean metaphoricallyically
(25:21):
skydiving.
You can't get back in theairplane when you let go.
You're doing it.
You know what I mean.
It's a point of no return, andso the skill of accessing that
sort of point of no returnenergy is something that people,
I think, need to practice.
But it's part of how you'llthen get through the stuff
(25:44):
that's unexpected, instead ofbeing like, oh, it was supposed
to happen just like this, andnow it's not, and I'm upset and
I'm freaking out and I'mspending all this energy on
emotion that I could otherwisebe spending on solutions and
pivoting and all that good stuff.
Ben Larson (26:00):
Amazing.
I think we're getting to theanswer of my next question, but
I want to dive let's see what Idid there Dive a little bit
deeper into this idea of likefear management Right, and I
think, building confidence andnavigating the outcomes that's a
big piece of it and committingyourself and just going past the
(26:22):
point of no return, justregurgitating everything you
just said.
But one of the tactics thatpeople employ, or that I've
encouraged people to employ,guilty is that when you're
fearful of something, you kindof go through that exercise of
what are the potential outcomesand how bad could it actually be
and just go for it.
(26:43):
But in your case, like you'rejumping out of a plane.
So I hate to say it but I thinkwe all know the worst case
scenario is that you hit theground yeah.
Melanie Curtis (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, there's mortality, real
mortality there, that helps withfear management.
Ben Larson (26:57):
So, like some of the other tactics besides that, I
(27:25):
don't think that helps with fearmanagement.
Melanie Curtis (27:28):
So like, what are right?
But back in the day, if I wasrejected from the group and I
was alone, the saber-toothedtigers are going to eat me and
I'm going to die.
So there's this sense of realsurvival connected to almost all
fears.
If we dig deep enough, if weask why okay cool, why, okay
(27:49):
cool, why does that matter?
Okay cool, why does that matter?
Dig, dig, dig down on fears,you'll usually come to some
really core base thing.
Right, and so that's anexercise I would highly
recommend for most people.
But I think one thing that'simportant to start with is how
do you even know if you'reafraid?
(28:10):
I know that might sound like aweird question, but the starting
point, I think, is reallycultivating self-awareness, and
I mean that actionably.
I mean when I feel triggered.
What happens in my body?
Does my throat close?
Does my chest tighten?
(28:31):
Does my face get hot and red?
Do I start to get irritable?
Do I feel emotionally fragilelike I want to cry?
Do I?
Do I feel emotionally fragilelike I want to cry?
Do I whatever?
Snap at people?
What emerges in me?
Do I get quiet and retreat fromconversation or contribution?
(28:52):
Those things are all cues thatif we actually self-reflect and
look, we'll start to see whathappens for us.
You know what I mean.
And then with that we can startto.
I don't know if you guys knowViktor Frankl's book Man's
Search for Meaning, but he talksa lot about the or he this.
One of the main premises in histeachings is this idea that
(29:16):
between stimulus and responsethere is a space, right?
So like stimulus meaningsomething scares me.
My response, I take some actionrelative to that fear, if we
can.
You know, like open up that oh,there's a stimulus, there's a
fear.
I know and I'm aware that I'mafraid and I'm now becoming the
(29:37):
observer of myself in that spacethere we can decide.
So I don't have to let fearhave me snap at Anna Rae because
I'm having a stressful day withmy family or something right.
It could be totally unrelatedto her right.
So those skills I think arecrucial to develop, in addition
(29:58):
to the proactive things of howdo I lower the potentiality that
I'm going to be triggered byfear into a place where I'm
going to do something I mayberegret?
AnnaRae Grabstein (30:08):
So what I hear you doing is really leaning
into these key points based onsome of the questions we're
asking you, like fear, I think,high level.
It's all touching on this bigpicture about how we invest in
ourselves as leaders and all ofthese kind of potential gems
(30:30):
that come out of that.
In particular, I think burnoutis really common in cannabis,
but really common professionallyfor all leaders that are doing
hard work pretty consistently,and you've done a lot of work in
your career about educatingpeople about how to invest in
themselves in order to have peakperformance, in order to live
(30:52):
the life that they want.
I'd love to just kind of openit up in terms of this concept
of investing in ourselves.
What does that mean?
Like, where does someone start?
Melanie Curtis (31:05):
I love that so much.
Thank you for even asking that,because I think you're right
that isn't talked about thatmuch, even though it's just
what's so funny to me funny tome from the life coaching
perspective.
I started life coaching in 2008and, oh my God, it was not cool
(31:32):
back then.
You know like I mean.
Even the word light term lifecoach now is a bit like cringe,
but I I've I very much deeplybelieve in it as a modality of
support, and that's somethingthat is so crucial.
To talk about is like we are notmeant to do life alone.
You know what I mean.
And especially if we arerunning businesses or doing
really hard things, we arechoosing, self-selecting,
(31:56):
choosing into these beingtriggered.
We are choosing into areaswhere we don't really know what
we're doing.
We're choosing into maybehaving people around us and
we're like, whoa, I'm suddenly amanager, I'm suddenly a CEO or
I'm suddenly whatever, and itreally there's so much more to
(32:19):
that type of stuff than justlike a title, right?
What does being a CEO or afounder take?
You know what I mean.
How do you want to go to sleepat night and feel like you've
done a good job for bothyourself and people around you.
What are your core values?
Having spaces and people tohelp you explore these things
(32:41):
are are so useful.
You know what I mean.
Again, I'm not necessarilysaying, hey, coach, hire me.
I mean sure, but it's moreabout the concept of, like, find
people so that you can build asupport team.
Like I talk about people havinga therapist.
Maybe they have a coach, maybethey have a best friend who's
very capable, maybe they have abusiness partner who's very
(33:01):
capable.
Maybe they have a businesspartner who's very capable,
right?
So it depends.
Maybe they're a part of amastermind group or a community
that has a lot of resources andsmart people in it.
So it depends what your supportteam looks like.
But not having one is the wrongmove.
Like, cultivating a supportteam, I think, is critical.
Ben Larson (33:23):
I love that we talk about support teams pretty
frequently, like I've immersedmyself.
In fact, yesterday I had my daylong Vistage meeting.
It was great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (33:32):
Nice.
Ben Larson (33:35):
Not to turn this into my own personal therapy
session, but you're here and Ihave a mic, so a lot of like a
type leaders.
You know they like to surroundthemselves with other, a type
leaders, thus mastermind groupsand what have you.
But how do you create thatacceptance, or at least yeah,
(33:58):
like I don't know, I find myselfwanting to see that in everyone
that is around me.
And that's healthy in someaspects, because you are the sum
of the five people that youhang out with the most.
But some of those people that Ihang out with the most is my
family, and I could becomeinsufferable if I'm pressing on
them all the time to be exactlylike me.
Yep, I can do a little bit morein my company because that, you
(34:21):
know, might be my expectation,but also it's helpful to not
have that within every person inthe company, and so I just I
find myself struggling with thata lot.
Melanie Curtis (34:31):
Yeah, you know it's, I get it first of all,
totally get it.
I am a very hyper growth mind.
Anna Ray knows I'm super growthminded.
I am constantly enlivened bythe edge and all this stuff.
But really I love the livingthat takes place when I'm
(34:54):
growing, when I'm trying tobetter myself, and I care a
great deal about doing that inthe presence.
When I'm trying to bettermyself and I care a great deal
about doing that in the presenceof people I love and all this
stuff.
Anyway, I say that just toyou're not alone.
One thing I would invite peopleinto, if that's their experience
, is looking at the beliefaround, actually considering
(35:18):
diversity of voices and lifeexperiences.
For example, the FourAgreements.
One of the four agreements, ifyou've read that book, is
something I'm going to not sayit exactly how it's written in
the book, but it's somethinglike not everybody experiences
the world like you do.
You know what I mean.
(35:39):
So like, really, if we reallywant to be an empathetic leader
that ends up as a safe, trulysafe, nonjudgmental space, we
really must cultivate skills ofnonjudgmentally viewing other
folks and cultivate the skilland this is a kind of core
competency as a coach which Ithink all leaders should sort of
(36:00):
be coaches in a way is reallycultivate that skill of seeing
the potential and positivecontribution of the people
around us.
You know what I mean, becauseit's very easy to get into that
judgmental space of like, oh,why aren't they doing this or
why aren't they doing that, andinstead maybe start to reflect
(36:25):
on, well, what are person is notdoing in a workplace?
That's different, that's awhole.
How do we hold peopleaccountable?
How do we challenge them torise to what the role requires,
(36:47):
that type of stuff or what theteam culture is built on?
Right, and not everyone isgoing to make the cut there
either.
Right, some people are not afit for our team.
I'm not saying this necessarilyabout your family, but but I'm
saying it more about, you know,the cultivation of nonjudgment
and the recognition of whatpeople actually bring to the
(37:09):
table as a diverse person.
You know what I mean, and I saydiverse with a very broad
stroke there, meaning not you,right, not exactly how you would
do it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:21):
Yeah, and come on, ben, I'm just going to
call you out Red flags here, man.
Ben Larson (37:27):
Yeah, I've never claimed not to have them.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:32):
But you know, I think that what I'm hearing
Melanie say and is sort of anundertone and looking at
overcoming fear, uncertainty andtaking calculated risks.
(38:00):
As leaders, we have aresponsibility to keep trying
harder, to keep doing hardthings to better ourselves.
First, by whether it's openingour mind to a diverse range of
experiences of other people'slives or to new concepts or
ideas that someone might havethat aren't our own, that are
(38:20):
going to be unlocks for us, thatthat's going to help us to
really kick 2025's butt right,and that's exciting for me and
I'm feeling inspired as we'retalking about this.
Melanie Curtis (38:36):
I want to say one more thing about this that I
think will potentially help.
Another thing that I talk aboutis this idea of discomfort as
the door.
So, again, talking aboutframing peak performance Okay,
yeah, fear, right, you're on theedge, you're feeling fear.
Human trigger Okay, master abunch of skills around fear and
you're going to be able to gofurther than you would have if
(38:58):
fear were to stop you.
Cool, all that, check done,talked about it.
There's plenty more to talkabout, but the next thing I want
to talk about is this notionthat discomfort.
It really is something toconsider, right?
So, in this example of what youshared, ben, about, you're in
this leadership position, oryou're this type A person.
You're constantly surrounded bytype A people.
(39:19):
You maybe have this built-incomfort zone, familiarity with
those types of folks, becausethat's where you feel good and
live and all this stuff and,again, myself too.
And so the discomfort there islike okay, looking at the
discomfort there is like okay,like looking at the discomfort
that you experience in thepresence of the other folks that
(39:42):
are causing you the rub, inwhatever scenario it might be
and again, it may be you, butany leader.
I really this is really auniversal thing.
You're just the example becauseyou're literally here, but you
know what I mean.
That sense, because discomfortis not always only fear, right,
it's also coming up against ourcurrent existing habits, right.
(40:07):
And I cannot recommend morehighly for people to read the
book the Power of Habit byCharles Duhigg.
It's, I think, a game changer.
I think it's a crucial criticalpiece of just education.
A lot of people also talk aboutthe book Atomic Habits written
by James Clear, also anexcellent book, I think in my
(40:28):
experience.
Read Charles first, the Powerof Habit first, then read Atomic
Habits.
They build on each other, butthe power of habit is, I think,
the baseline, fundamentalunderstanding.
So discomfort is present whenwe are pushing past what we are
habitually already conditionedto do, whether that is how we
(40:48):
think, whether that is us eatinga certain thing.
I always kind of share thisexample where I would go to New
York City.
I live in New Jersey, I go toNew York City on the train and I
had these two collapsed habitsof when I would go to the city.
Every time I would come home Iwould get this lemon poppy seed
(41:11):
muffin, and it was just acollapsed habit.
And this is again a little foodthing.
I'm like I don't know I'm usingfood details today, but I had
to recognize that that was ahabit that I had and one that
wasn't serving me and I had tostart to detangle them.
(41:32):
So the discomfort came and thenext time I went to the city now
with this new awareness, thisnew commitment, to be like oh, I
got to stop eating thosemuffins.
They make me feel bad, I feelbrain fog the next day, yada,
yada, yada, the moment when Inormally get that muffin not so
easy, right.
So it's like I had to beprepared for that.
So, thinking about ways bothlearning from what we feel and
(41:56):
then preparing ourselves in sucha way that when we meet that
moment again, that discomfortagain that comes from whatever
habit we're trying to shift orwhatever new habit we're trying
to build, that stuff is super,super important.
But it's also really excitingbecause it lets us, it really
gives us the way to get towhatever next level we're trying
(42:17):
to get to.
Ben Larson (42:18):
Yeah, I love talking about uncomfortableness.
It's because I mean working instartups especially.
It's like being comfortable inthe uncomfortable is really your
key to success and surviving.
Actually it's surviving thestress, right.
And and then just another quotethat I often like hear or or
(42:41):
repeat uh, is is just thisconcept of if you're not
uncomfortable, you're notgrowing yeah and so I do like
this idea of taking thatuncomfortable and putting it
over here instead of like thegrowth, like where am I
uncomfortable with certainpeople that I'm interacting with
and and exploring a little bit?
Melanie Curtis (42:59):
So I really appreciate that be hard to
really look at where we feeldiscomfort.
Some of it we will not want tosee it.
So that's, if I really am like,okay, you really want to get to
(43:32):
the true like this, we have tobe willing to go to those places
that we have been historicallyunwilling to go inside ourselves
.
Otherwise, that stuff that isunseen to us will always hold us
back.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:46):
The idea of being held back by the places
that we've been and where wecame from.
The flip side of that is alsoabout how we show up today and
Ben brought up and seeded alittle bit about his morning
routine earlier in the show andhe shared about it.
(44:08):
And you talked about relentlesscommitment.
We talked about breaking habits.
There's this concept about thewhole person and how these
things that happened beforeaffect us in our day-to-day life
now, but also as leaders,sometimes we feel that we're
identified by the work and Ithink that there's a disconnect
(44:32):
by all the other pieces ofourselves, and a big part of
that and peak performance thatyou talk about is the commitment
to the other parts of ourselves.
As leaders, what we're doingphysically to keep our bodies at
peak performance, which canlead to our minds being at peak
performance, which can then leadto ourselves being able to show
up, and it's no problem.
(44:53):
We aren't scared ofuncomfortability with a team
member because we just pushedour body to some crazy limits
and it's all of a sudden, itjust all kind of comes from
there, and I'm curious of whatsome of your routines are that
are the ways that you continueto push your body and yourself,
(45:15):
so that your work isn't so scary.
Melanie Curtis (45:19):
Yeah, thank you.
I love that question.
I want to first double tap onthe parts work.
If people have not heard ofRichard Schwartz, he developed a
therapeutic modality calledinternal family systems.
I would highly recommendGoogling it, checking it out.
It's sort of also known asparts work but, it can be really
(45:41):
useful.
Ben Larson (45:42):
There's a book.
No Bad Parts?
I think no Bad Parts.
Yep, yep.
Melanie Curtis (45:46):
Totally recommend that book as well.
Yeah, for sure.
There's workbooks and stuff andthere are definitely therapists
out there that are trained inthis modality that can hold a
meditative space for a partswork.
Meditation, it's all.
It's really really good stuffIf it's something that's you're
kind of called toward.
But, anna Rae, to answer yourquestion, the other thing I want
to touch on quickly is is thewhat's the word I want to say
(46:13):
like magnetic?
It's more like an inertia ofidentity, right?
So people have known me agazillion years as a pro
skydiver and I am a pro skydiver.
I totally am.
But the more deeper nuancedthing with that, for me it's a
(46:33):
good example of who am I, if Ilet go of being a pro skydiver,
doing this work right, and so Istill very much identify as a
pro skydiver.
But how that looks in my worldnow is vastly changed.
I skydive much, much less and Ido very specific skydiving work
(46:56):
now that is connected toamplifying voices and messages
that matter, using the sort ofsuperpower of skydiving to
capture attention and attachingit to sort of women and activist
efforts that I care about.
So that I say that just becauseit was.
It's been a long time for me tobe like, oh my God, well, what
if I?
It's been a long time for me tobe like, oh my God, well, what
(47:29):
if I?
When I first started coaching,will anybody even be interested
in me as a coach?
Am I going to fail because theydon't like me as a focus?
It's just wonderful work.
But, like the keynote speaking,why I touch on that is that
that is in large part how myprofessional life and my
connection to contribution andskydiving has evolved right, has
(47:50):
matured.
It's like I know that I canmake a great deal of difference
for my sport, my community, bydoing it this way, by talking
about it being a model ofleadership outside of the
skydiving community in the waythat I am, by contributing, by
telling stories, and maybe somepeople go and try skydiving,
maybe a lot of people don't,that doesn't really matter.
(48:11):
But the point is is thatevolves?
But the point is is thatevolves?
So to get to your actualquestion about what are my
routines, it's connected to thekeynote speaking, which is why I
told all that other stuff.
Intuitively, I knew so.
Last year I deployed MelanieCurtis type A like badass you
(48:36):
know what?
Because that version of me, Ilove her, I love that version of
me.
She's awesome and she's very,very powerful.
So when I deploy her and she'sheld very accountable, I can get
a ton done.
I ended 2024 really burned out,and so what do I do with that?
Well, I was like well, I have aton of skills in my toolbox.
(48:58):
I just need to get back to them.
So I'm a person who has a wordfor the year, and my word for
this year is consistency, butspecifically relative to my
meditation, to exercise and tohealthy eating.
None of this is new.
Healthy eating None of this isnew.
It's like boring, almost that.
That's my answer, right, butthe truth is, is that that
(49:28):
consistency in meditation andthat consistency, that
commitment to it, is what Ibelieve intuitively is connected
to my success as a keynotespeaker?
Right, like to really reallygrow in that lane, which is what
I'm, what I want.
So that, plus prospecting foran hour a day like that type of
routine, I think, is also reallyimportant things that I haven't
done in the past but I'm reallydigging into now.
Ben Larson (49:48):
This, this idea of creating and identifying the
persona that you are choosing tobe in a given situation or a
given day or a given year, uh,so powerful.
And I say that as someone whogrew up identifying as an
introvert.
And there's a lot of peoplethat look at me and like,
(50:11):
bullshit you're, you're a ceo,you do public speaking, you host
a podcast like there's no wayyou're an introvert.
And you know, I love that.
Like creating the, that routine, those habits in the morning
and then giving yourself theopportunity to enter the day, be
like who do I need to be today?
And if you're going on stage ortalking to your team, I remember
(50:33):
when we were, um, when we'refirst getting into the pandemic,
and you, like, you know, I hadmy routine in the morning I'd
shower, I'd do my hair, I'd puton a collared shirt and I'd go
into my room and stand in frontof my computer for 10 hours and
it even got to the point where Iput it right above my camera
(50:54):
and it just said showtime.
And I can't remember where Igot this advice from, but it was
just like this reminder thatit's like oh yeah, I have to, I
have to be on for my team inthis particular case and it just
it applies to so many thingswhen you're public speaking is
like going on.
It's like who's this audience?
What did they expect me to be?
And I'm going to be that personand making it a choice.
(51:17):
I just love that.
And Melanie like and I know thatfear probably no longer exists,
but I imagine you being anamazing coach, uh, and that
everyone thinks that, because Ifeel like I could talk to you
forever.
Um, anna Rae, do you have anylast questions for Melanie?
I know we're getting close tothe top of the hour here.
AnnaRae Grabstein (51:39):
You know, I think that I want our listeners
to know how they can stayconnected to you and your work,
Melanie.
So what's the best?
Way for people to find you andtalk exists.
Melanie Curtis (51:53):
I'm like it still exists.
I'm just like committed tobeing as masterful as I can be
with the skill set around it soI can do what I want to do with
this one precious life, as itwere.
But yeah, I would love toconnect with anybody who felt
inspired and motivated orwhatever drawn to what I've been
sharing about my name, melanieCurtis, my website,
(52:16):
melaniecurtiscom, instagram.
I'm on Instagram a lot,linkedin, for sure.
Connect with me here, butMelanieCurtis11 on Instagram and
, yeah, please reach out.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:27):
Awesome.
Well, this has been such aninspiration.
Ben and I are both reallycommitted to showing up as whole
people as we navigate thecomplexities of this wild
industry that we work in, and weare excited to be encouraging
more conversations like this,because I think it's needed.
(52:48):
So, melanie, we would love foryou to give our listeners a last
call as a final message beforewe say goodbye.
Melanie Curtis (53:00):
I this is probably going to sound weird,
but I love you.
I mean it sounds so weird, butI mean there's like when we
really connect to like we'retogether in this, like we're
really together in this.
You know, even people I don'tknow I feel like I have love for
(53:20):
.
So I try to really rest in thatand all that, even when I'm
showing up, ben, like you said,even when I'm on, when I'm
trying to embody all that energy, it's still I really try to be
really rooted in love, and so Iwould invite people to really
consider that in the roles thatthey, that they hold and the
ways that they lead.
Ben Larson (53:41):
Wow, I love that and we love you too.
Thank you so much for beinghere and sharing this hour with
us, and what a great departurefrom from our our typical show.
So, melanie, I can't wait untilthe next time we get to catch
up.
I'll certainly be reaching outto you personally.
Got some work to do.
Melanie Curtis (54:02):
Thank you both so much.
Ben Larson (54:04):
All right, bye, anna Rae.
Thank you for queuing that up.
That was incredible.
AnnaRae Grabstein (54:10):
Don't.
I have cool friends.
Ben Larson (54:12):
You do have cool friends.
I mean not to sound surprised,but you know, and what do you
think folks?
A little bit of a departure,like I said, from our typical
show.
But if you liked it, we'll domore.
I'm sure Anna Rae has more coolfriends beyond Melanie.
Don't forget to like, subscribe, share, do all the things Huge.
(54:35):
Thank you to our audience forcontinuing to grow and engage
with us.
We're having so much fun.
We're going to be live in miamiat canadatacon at the beginning
of february, so if you'replanning on going, make sure you
keep an eye out for us.
We'll be very engaged with theshow.
A huge shout out and thank youto the team.
Ian and Delta Emerald Reallylove it, really excited to go
(54:58):
there.
And, yeah, all I can say isthank you to our producer, eric
Rossetti, and our teams atVertosa and Wolfmeyer and, of
course, the team at KitPrint forsupporting this show.
Until next time, stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high.
That's the show.
We want to give a quick shout out to our
friends and sponsor over atKitPrint, the cannabis operators
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Ben Larson (00:50):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 73 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and, as always,I'm joined today by Anna Rae
Grabstein.
It's Thursday, january 16th,2025.
And we've got another greatshow for you today, going a
little off script and talkingabout how you can reach peak
(01:12):
performance in 2025.
We'll get to that in a littlebit, but I'm going to check in
with my co host and just see howthings are going this week.
And, ray, how are you today?
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:24):
how things are going this week.
Anna Rae, how are you today?
Thanks for asking and alwayscaring.
I am good.
I am really excited for theshow that we're having today and
it's a little departure for us.
As you mentioned talking aboutleadership and peak performance,
when we started this podcast,we almost called it leading in
cannabis, if you remember.
Ben Larson (01:44):
It's still on my calendar.
Our prep calls are still on mycalendars, Leading in Cannabis.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:48):
Exactly Because leadership really
matters to both of us, and nowwe get to focus on it today.
Say yeah, how are you doing?
Ben Larson (01:58):
I'm good.
I'm good.
It's my birthday this weekend,so I'm excited about this.
It's my 44th birthday, which myfavorite number is 22.
And so this is 22 times two,which means this year is going
to be a big year for me.
So double the fun.
Double the fun.
And yeah, I don't know, I'mfeeling pretty great coming into
(02:19):
this.
You know, I've stuck with myworkout routine, as many have
seen on LinkedIn, and yeah, Idon't know, I just feel like
this is.
Last year was a great year, butthis is going to be the year
and I'm really excited abouthaving this conversation today
because, yeah, I don't know, I'mpumped up for it.
I want to give myself all thetools to really make it happen.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:40):
Yeah Well, we usually do a bit of a news
rundown.
I think we don't have to go toodeep today, but there is one
thing that I think is worthmentioning before we jump in to
our main conversation today.
And that's yeah, it's the delaywith the Schedule 3 hearings
with the.
Ben Larson (02:58):
D Good.
That was top of my list too.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:01):
Yeah, you know, this touches basically all
of our listeners that operatein the cannabis space and, um,
some think it's good news.
I feel like it's bad news,mostly because I'm impatient for
progress and I want to see thishappen.
Uh, but basically what'shappened is that the
(03:23):
administrative law judge thatwas overseeing the hearings to
determine the next step in theprogression from Schedule 1 to
Schedule 3 has delayed thehearings for 90 days or
indefinitely.
This is coming as a result of apro-reform group led by Shane
(03:47):
Pennington, who's a lawyer, aprominent lawyer in the space
saying that the DEA was notactually acting in the best
interest of policy change.
Ben Larson (04:03):
So he's trying to protect progress, but what it's
doing is also slowing downprogress, which is the
double-edged sword here.
Yeah, krishid Koja, who Imentioned previously
representing NCIA and the lawyerwho's really kind of engaged
with this, has put out a prettyscathing op-ed about this.
Actually, it's pretty cannabiscontroversial, but basically
saying that this lawsuit is justproof that there's many people
(04:25):
in the industry that haven'ttaken the time to understand the
process and that this was howthese hearings were intended to
be structured, based on the DEAprocess, and so it indeed is
just like an unnecessary delayin what was otherwise going to
push the conversation forwardunnecessary delay and what was
(04:47):
otherwise going to push theconversation forward.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:51):
Yeah, look, you know, in my work I have a
few different retailers that areour clients and 280E is torture
.
280e is a tax penalty that ismost difficult for retailers in
the industry, but it's hard foreverybody and it makes it so
that all cannabis businessesaren't able to write off their
general business expensesoutside of cost of goods sold,
(05:12):
and it is a penalty that canmake it so that cannabis
businesses just can't beprofitable, which is actually a
good segue into the conversationaround leadership, because it's
really one of the largestchallenges that executives in
the space have to face and tomanage is how to build
businesses that can sustainthemselves within massive,
(05:32):
massive tax penalties that otherbusinesses outside of our space
don't face, and it feels unfairand it feels unmanageable, and
this has been the path to ending280e.
There are other paths and, uh,I believe that in my lifetime we
(05:53):
will see a clear path, but I'vegot a lot of life ahead of me
and I would like to live lifewith this penalty over.
So, please, please, please,let's, let's have some progress
here, folks.
Ben Larson (06:04):
Amen, yeah it's, it's unfortunate, but you know,
here we are.
This is kind of part and parcelwith with the cannabis industry
.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:13):
All right.
Well, anything else that youwant to bring up on the news
front before we bring on Melanieno, I'd rather get my, my
emotions going in the oppositedirection.
Ben Larson (06:22):
That sounds great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:22):
Let's do that .
So I will cue this up.
I am so excited to welcomeMelanie Curtis.
She's both a friend, but evenmore importantly, she's a
professional skydiver, a worldrecord holder and acclaimed life
coach who has spent her careerpushing the edges of what's
possible, both in extreme sportsand helping people thrive in
(06:44):
high stakes environments.
She's worked with individualsand teams on navigating change,
overcoming fear and achievingpeak performance.
So, in the face of lots ofuncertainty in cannabis, Melanie
, we are so thrilled to bringyou on and welcome you to our
show today.
Melanie Curtis (07:01):
I love it.
I'm super happy to be here.
I'm fired up to be thedeparture from your normal.
I hear a lot.
The tone of genre busting issort of stuff that I bring to
the table sometimes because theskydiving thing is so weird and
it's like how is that relatable?
(07:23):
And yet you get into it.
And it's like how is thatrelatable?
And yet you get into it andit's like there's a lot that can
be extracted from a universalperspective.
But yeah, thanks so much forhaving me.
I love it.
Ben Larson (07:32):
Amazing and not too weird.
Just last week we had anotherskydiver on who holds a world
record.
But in the continuity of that,what is the world record that
you hold for skydiving?
Melanie Curtis (07:44):
Continuity of that.
What is the world record thatyou hold for skydiving?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I was a member of thewomen's vertical world record
team.
So in 2022, basically, we had100 women jumping out of five
different aircraft, going 200miles upside down head to earth,
building a predeterminedformation from 20,000 feet.
It is a ridiculous,mind-boggling thing and it
(08:08):
cannot be achieved withoutindividual peak performance and
actually team peak performanceas well.
So it's like that phrase can bea little bit buzzwordy.
You know what I mean.
What is peak performance?
But when you get into examplesof it and what actually, I am
infinitely honestly fascinatedby the edges of human potential
(08:30):
and entrepreneurially also,which is what I think is so
alive about the cannabis space,is that clearly there's edge
pushing here.
Clearly you're like breakingnew ground.
There's, you know, you're inuncharted territory, like
completely, and so uh, yeah,anyway, a lot, of, a lot of what
(08:50):
we talk about in sort of mykeynote speaking stuff I'm
hopeful is going to be usefulfor your audience and so you do
keynote speaking, and then youalso have a life coaching
practice.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:02):
Talk a little bit about what that is.
Melanie Curtis (09:04):
Yeah, Well, my life coaching, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know God, life coaching.
I've been doing that about 20years and it is still some of
the most fulfilling work that Ido.
And I talk about that because Ilove, deeply love people.
(09:26):
You know how people are like,oh, what's your purpose?
This and that, Bar none,forever.
I have just loved people deeply.
I'm deeply fascinated by thehuman experience and so when I
get to and I mean that when Iget to be the person holding the
space with deep curiosity, withcomplete non-judgment and
(09:50):
really helping a person have aspace where they can feel truly
safe to explore what's in theirway, or explore what they are
actually interested in, whatthey're dreaming about I mean, I
don't even really talk aboutdreaming that much, but it's
again this idea of helpingpeople expand, whether it's in
(10:11):
the kind of conversational spacethat we share together, but in
so doing we find goals, we findthe pieces of what they're
interested in, what's alive forthem, what conflicts are at play
, all this stuff like gettinginto the nitty gritty of
people's lives and selves.
(10:33):
I really feel like it's anhonor to get to do that for
people, and I'm a relentlessteammate.
I don't mess around and I lovemy people a lot.
Ben Larson (10:45):
Like I don't mess around and I love my people a
lot.
Man, I love this.
And you know we're at thebeginning of the year and we set
all these expectations for theyear, and so, as a CEO, I'm
doing a lot of one-on-ones withthe leaders in my team and, you
know, trying to set the stage toget the most out of them and
have them achieve what they wantthis year.
Have them achieve what they wantthis year, and you know, I
introduced the idea of of havingthis big, hairy, audacious goal
(11:13):
, a personal one for them, sothat they're not necessarily
setting a new year's resolutionthat they'll forget about in a
month, but that they're actuallydriving towards something all
year.
But I love that idea of sittingdown with someone and really
getting them to open up andreflect on everything their,
their, you know, their theiridiosyncrasies, their, their
strengths, their weaknesses andand building up from there and
(11:34):
so kind of, in the vein ofholding that space for people,
what are some of the tactics orquestions you you ask to really
kind of set the stage for thatinner work.
I think that's the hardest partis getting someone to settle
down and get centered and taketheir armor off.
Melanie Curtis (11:59):
Yeah for sure that a person in a
hierarchically definedleadership role there will be
undeniably a leadership powerdynamic there, so that leader
needs to acknowledge that assimply a truth.
(12:21):
And so the expectation that aperson might just open up to
them because they've decidedthey're going to ask some soft
skills questions and suddenlythey're accessible, like that,
that's built over time andthrough cultural action.
This is one of the things thatI talk about relative to the
(12:42):
world record.
It's sort of this interestinglittle side story.
I wish I had photos to share,but you'll get the picture.
But the idea that we talk a lotin business about culture.
You hear that all the time oh,what's your culture?
What's your culture?
I got a ping pong table, cool,awesome, we're so cool and hip.
But really, when we talk aboutit relationally, it's like what
(13:06):
does emotional safety,psychological safety, look like?
So we talk a lot about culture,but we don send memes, funny
(13:26):
memes or reels to your friendsor loved ones or people in your
life.
Have you heard that term?
That's a new term for me.
Yeah, so it's basically thisnotion that I'm going to stay
connected to.
Oh, anna Rae, you're my friend.
Oh, I saw this meme that mademe think of you, or this is a
(13:50):
funny thing and it relates tosomething we talked about.
It's a small way.
I'm not suggesting necessarilythat this is a full-on
leadership tactic, but it is away to maintain connection with
people in our intimate sphere.
And so, anyway, the worldrecord it's sort of a flower
shape and it's built with abunch of different circles.
Flower shape and it's builtwith a bunch of different
circles, and my circle it'scalled a pod was E-Pod, like A,
b, c, d, e, and E-Pod was theonly pod of the entire record
(14:14):
that was was the same.
That never changed.
There you go.
That never changed from thefirst jump to the last jump.
So there's something there likewell, what was going on in EPOD
such that we were able tomaintain our peak performance
through the end?
And I tell this story about myfriend Kate, and she was a part
(14:35):
of EPOD, and I talk about my ownstructure around, taking my
fear and bringing it from hereto here to here.
By having structures in placeand routines in place, I show up
at the same time, I put my gearin the same place, I eat the
same thing every day.
All those things sort of helpme feel a sense of control when
(14:58):
I'm in an environment that isfar out of my control.
And we can relate this tobusiness a lot, because business
, there's people, there's themarket, there's so many things
that we cannot ever control.
That it's like how do we get asense for a baseline of what we
can control but then how thathelps us weather the stress that
(15:21):
comes with what we can't?
So anyway, kate and I, everyday I would get a BLT because I
just like them.
Ben Larson (15:28):
I love.
Melanie Curtis (15:28):
BLTs.
I love BLTs, right, and soevery day I would get my BLT and
be like snap a dorky selfie andjust text it to Kate, who I
knew was kind of managing herown fears around the world
record, like everyone on theentire team is, and I sent her a
bunch of selfies and then bythe fourth day she took a selfie
(15:51):
with her BLT and sent it to me.
It's a simple, stupid littlestory, but it shows the more
intimacy of like I don'tnecessarily have to be freaking
out, asking for coaching how didI do this?
Or that.
I can actually relax into alittle bit of my light, funnier
(16:11):
self because I know that I'm onpoint with what I need to have
on point for the more intensestuff.
AnnaRae Grabstein (16:18):
Melanie, what you're touching on is bringing
up so many bridges for me intothe leadership work that Ben and
I talk about on this show as itrelates to the volatility.
It's like you're highlightingthe importance of these little
moments of personal connectionwithin the face of tremendous
volatility, fear, uncertainty,and how those moments of
(16:43):
personal connection what itsounds like can build like a
stronger foundation for peopleto be able to get through like
really hard times together.
Melanie Curtis (16:52):
Yeah, for sure.
AnnaRae Grabstein (16:54):
In.
In our industry, there is justconstant shifts.
At the top of the hour, we aretalking about issues going on
with tax policy.
The cannabis industry has beenemerging for the past 10 years
and it's a unique space becausepeople have been consuming
(17:14):
cannabis for thousands of years,and so there's this movement
through business and laws andregulation, of taking this thing
that's been in existence inhuman patterns and in their
consciousness for a long timeand then trying to put it into
this legal framework and withinthat legal framework.
(17:34):
Then there is capital thatcomes in and there's business
opportunities and professionalopportunities and there's a
clash with culture.
It's like all of these thingsare happening all at the same
time, and we've got CEOs andfounders that are trying to
create certainty, because thatis their job as a leader is to
(17:57):
create some level of consistencyfor their teams, for their
investors, for the markets thatare supporting them, to believe
that they're like carrying aplan forward.
That's clear, but yet there'sall this uncertainty all around,
and so I guess you know ifthere's a question in all of
that for you.
(18:18):
It's like how do you take allof this uncertainty in the world
and channel it into somethingto be able to like push
boundaries and createopportunities around a plan Like
how do you create a plan wheneverything is so crazy and wild?
Melanie Curtis (18:35):
Oh God, well, I mean, if I had the exact answer
to that, I would certainly tellyou.
Well, I mean, if I had theexact answer to that, I would
certainly tell you.
But I think it's so importantto talk about that because one
thing I say a lot is certaintyis very seductive, right,
Because it feels good to be likeI got it under control, like
(18:56):
this is going to happen.
I don't have to worry about allthese 8,000 million things that
are also going on that arepotentially going to change our
path.
You know, so it's.
I've seen this with clients overthe years where they'll declare
, right, this, this sense ofcertainty about a thing, but
really it's, it's fear, right?
So if we get and we talk aboutfear and we talk about, okay,
(19:19):
how can we actually improve inthese spaces?
We have to, I think, buildskills around fear.
So I briefly mentioned about,like, what are the systems,
structures, routines that helpme in a high stakes situation or
an intense environment, bringmy fear down?
That's one thing, but alsorelative to things that we can't
(19:41):
control genuinely, genuinelyworking on detachment from
outcome, right, like that is acore emotional mindset skill
that, without it, will justconsistently get triggered when
in the fate and again beingtriggered is normal.
It's inherently human right.
(20:02):
Feeling fear is inherentlyhuman.
To briefly go back to tie inwhat, ben, you were saying
earlier uh, relative to the likeha ha ha, blt, emotional
intimacy thing, the other kindsof communication that's going on
, where that lightness is, thereis also a richer space where
people can share that they areafraid, where they can show up
(20:26):
and ask for feedback onsomething they're not sure
they're doing right, right Likethat.
That whole, like what does itlook like to be emotionally safe
, psychologically safe, or youknow what I mean, like a truly
accessible leader is that sortof space where people can admit
that they don't know.
(20:46):
They can admit that whenthey've sort of made mistakes,
they can feel like they're notgoing to be fired or get in
trouble if they have made amistake.
Right, and I want to say thistoo, because this can all sound
really fluffy and lovely andwarm.
But the other side of that isthat I'm not talking about not
(21:08):
having super high integrity.
Right Like you have a businessto run.
There are hard decisions thatneed to be made, doing a world
record.
Sometimes people get cut andthat stinks, but those are some
of the hard decisions that haveto be made in order for the
ultimate success of the largerteam and the bigger mission, and
so that's important to thinkabout too.
(21:31):
But trust that if I am being inhigh integrity and being that
sort of safe, emotionally, sortof gentle, as it were leader,
but having real clear boundariesaround what's okay, what's high
integrity, what's not, thenpeople will trust you because
they'll know that they're goingto get the feedback that they
(21:53):
need from you and they're alsogoing to be safe in when they
share about what's going on forthem.
Ben Larson (21:59):
Okay.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:03):
Ben.
Ben Larson (22:04):
I want to do a quick follow-up here.
Melanie Curtis (22:05):
Yeah, I got it because you, you, I mean, I can
riff.
I didn't answer your question.
Please tell me again.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:13):
But I think that it's really important,
because the idea of letting goof an outcome is very central to
a lot of different like healing, recovery formulas, frameworks,
right, but within the contextof business, I think it can be
complicated, because there's astrong need to have goals that
(22:37):
can align people around outcomes, and so I'd love to hear your
perspective on the idea ofletting go of an outcome while
still having a goal.
Melanie Curtis (22:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's super importantdistinction.
I love that you're we'repulling on that thread a bit
more because it's superimportant.
When I say detachment from theoutcome to people who have not
heard it first, like in earlyprofessional development work, I
almost always get that type ofquestion back where it's like
whoa well, how can I, you know?
(23:09):
And understandably a personwould be like how can I not care
about the outcome?
I do, you know, and socompletely valid, totally
validate that the distinction.
The thing to think aboutrelative to that is it's
short-term versus long, but it'salso, I mean, gosh if we take
it also to a spiritualperspective.
(23:30):
That's a bit higher level metapiece of the conversation, but
it is a part of it.
But down in the more workablerange of detachment from the
outcome is it's this idea thatwe know that here's the outcome,
here's where we are.
We know there's a ton of stuffin here.
(23:50):
What might derail us, the howwe get to the outcome or
whatever we are convicted toliving into as a business or
(24:11):
whatever.
We have to be open to thoseshifts along the path.
And the bigger picture is likeobviously at some point there
might be a question around whatactually the goal is right.
The goal may shift because newinformation comes in, because
different opportunities emerge.
(24:32):
But I mean I could go on and onabout all this stuff because it
really genuinely excites me ifyou can't tell on about all this
stuff, because it reallygenuinely excites me if you
can't tell.
But the last thing I'll sayabout the outcome and sort of
how do we then actually do thatemotionally, literally, with
accountability is that we commitfully.
(24:57):
There's so much power If wetalk about peak performance and
doing big things, having biggoals, running a business that
we don't know how to runcommitting fully that, no matter
what you're going to dowhatever you can to get to that
thing, that is power.
That comes only when you 100% Imean metaphoricallyically
(25:21):
skydiving.
You can't get back in theairplane when you let go.
You're doing it.
You know what I mean.
It's a point of no return, andso the skill of accessing that
sort of point of no returnenergy is something that people,
I think, need to practice.
But it's part of how you'llthen get through the stuff
(25:44):
that's unexpected, instead ofbeing like, oh, it was supposed
to happen just like this, andnow it's not, and I'm upset and
I'm freaking out and I'mspending all this energy on
emotion that I could otherwisebe spending on solutions and
pivoting and all that good stuff.
Ben Larson (26:00):
Amazing.
I think we're getting to theanswer of my next question, but
I want to dive let's see what Idid there Dive a little bit
deeper into this idea of likefear management Right, and I
think, building confidence andnavigating the outcomes that's a
big piece of it and committingyourself and just going past the
(26:22):
point of no return, justregurgitating everything you
just said.
But one of the tactics thatpeople employ, or that I've
encouraged people to employ,guilty is that when you're
fearful of something, you kindof go through that exercise of
what are the potential outcomesand how bad could it actually be
and just go for it.
(26:43):
But in your case, like you'rejumping out of a plane.
So I hate to say it but I thinkwe all know the worst case
scenario is that you hit theground yeah.
Melanie Curtis (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, there's mortality, real
mortality there, that helps withfear management.
Ben Larson (26:57):
So, like some of the other tactics besides that, I
(27:25):
don't think that helps with fearmanagement.
Melanie Curtis (27:28):
So like, what are right?
But back in the day, if I wasrejected from the group and I
was alone, the saber-toothedtigers are going to eat me and
I'm going to die.
So there's this sense of realsurvival connected to almost all
fears.
If we dig deep enough, if weask why okay cool, why, okay
(27:49):
cool, why does that matter?
Okay cool, why does that matter?
Dig, dig, dig down on fears,you'll usually come to some
really core base thing.
Right, and so that's anexercise I would highly
recommend for most people.
But I think one thing that'simportant to start with is how
do you even know if you'reafraid?
(28:10):
I know that might sound like aweird question, but the starting
point, I think, is reallycultivating self-awareness, and
I mean that actionably.
I mean when I feel triggered.
What happens in my body?
Does my throat close?
Does my chest tighten?
(28:31):
Does my face get hot and red?
Do I start to get irritable?
Do I feel emotionally fragilelike I want to cry?
Do I?
Do I feel emotionally fragilelike I want to cry?
Do I whatever?
Snap at people?
What emerges in me?
Do I get quiet and retreat fromconversation or contribution?
(28:52):
Those things are all cues thatif we actually self-reflect and
look, we'll start to see whathappens for us.
You know what I mean.
And then with that we can startto.
I don't know if you guys knowViktor Frankl's book Man's
Search for Meaning, but he talksa lot about the or he this.
One of the main premises in histeachings is this idea that
(29:16):
between stimulus and responsethere is a space, right?
So like stimulus meaningsomething scares me.
My response, I take some actionrelative to that fear, if we
can.
You know, like open up that oh,there's a stimulus, there's a
fear.
I know and I'm aware that I'mafraid and I'm now becoming the
(29:37):
observer of myself in that spacethere we can decide.
So I don't have to let fearhave me snap at Anna Rae because
I'm having a stressful day withmy family or something right.
It could be totally unrelatedto her right.
So those skills I think arecrucial to develop, in addition
(29:58):
to the proactive things of howdo I lower the potentiality that
I'm going to be triggered byfear into a place where I'm
going to do something I mayberegret?
AnnaRae Grabstein (30:08):
So what I hear you doing is really leaning
into these key points based onsome of the questions we're
asking you, like fear, I think,high level.
It's all touching on this bigpicture about how we invest in
ourselves as leaders and all ofthese kind of potential gems
(30:30):
that come out of that.
In particular, I think burnoutis really common in cannabis,
but really common professionallyfor all leaders that are doing
hard work pretty consistently,and you've done a lot of work in
your career about educatingpeople about how to invest in
themselves in order to have peakperformance, in order to live
(30:52):
the life that they want.
I'd love to just kind of openit up in terms of this concept
of investing in ourselves.
What does that mean?
Like, where does someone start?
Melanie Curtis (31:05):
I love that so much.
Thank you for even asking that,because I think you're right
that isn't talked about thatmuch, even though it's just
what's so funny to me funny tome from the life coaching
perspective.
I started life coaching in 2008and, oh my God, it was not cool
(31:32):
back then.
You know like I mean.
Even the word light term lifecoach now is a bit like cringe,
but I I've I very much deeplybelieve in it as a modality of
support, and that's somethingthat is so crucial.
To talk about is like we are notmeant to do life alone.
You know what I mean.
And especially if we arerunning businesses or doing
really hard things, we arechoosing, self-selecting,
(31:56):
choosing into these beingtriggered.
We are choosing into areaswhere we don't really know what
we're doing.
We're choosing into maybehaving people around us and
we're like, whoa, I'm suddenly amanager, I'm suddenly a CEO or
I'm suddenly whatever, and itreally there's so much more to
(32:19):
that type of stuff than justlike a title, right?
What does being a CEO or afounder take?
You know what I mean.
How do you want to go to sleepat night and feel like you've
done a good job for bothyourself and people around you.
What are your core values?
Having spaces and people tohelp you explore these things
(32:41):
are are so useful.
You know what I mean.
Again, I'm not necessarilysaying, hey, coach, hire me.
I mean sure, but it's moreabout the concept of, like, find
people so that you can build asupport team.
Like I talk about people havinga therapist.
Maybe they have a coach, maybethey have a best friend who's
very capable, maybe they have abusiness partner who's very
(33:01):
capable.
Maybe they have a businesspartner who's very capable,
right?
So it depends.
Maybe they're a part of amastermind group or a community
that has a lot of resources andsmart people in it.
So it depends what your supportteam looks like.
But not having one is the wrongmove.
Like, cultivating a supportteam, I think, is critical.
Ben Larson (33:23):
I love that we talk about support teams pretty
frequently, like I've immersedmyself.
In fact, yesterday I had my daylong Vistage meeting.
It was great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (33:32):
Nice.
Ben Larson (33:35):
Not to turn this into my own personal therapy
session, but you're here and Ihave a mic, so a lot of like a
type leaders.
You know they like to surroundthemselves with other, a type
leaders, thus mastermind groupsand what have you.
But how do you create thatacceptance, or at least yeah,
(33:58):
like I don't know, I find myselfwanting to see that in everyone
that is around me.
And that's healthy in someaspects, because you are the sum
of the five people that youhang out with the most.
But some of those people that Ihang out with the most is my
family, and I could becomeinsufferable if I'm pressing on
them all the time to be exactlylike me.
Yep, I can do a little bit morein my company because that, you
(34:21):
know, might be my expectation,but also it's helpful to not
have that within every person inthe company, and so I just I
find myself struggling with thata lot.
Melanie Curtis (34:31):
Yeah, you know it's, I get it first of all,
totally get it.
I am a very hyper growth mind.
Anna Ray knows I'm super growthminded.
I am constantly enlivened bythe edge and all this stuff.
But really I love the livingthat takes place when I'm
(34:54):
growing, when I'm trying tobetter myself, and I care a
great deal about doing that inthe presence.
When I'm trying to bettermyself and I care a great deal
about doing that in the presenceof people I love and all this
stuff.
Anyway, I say that just toyou're not alone.
One thing I would invite peopleinto, if that's their experience
, is looking at the beliefaround, actually considering
(35:18):
diversity of voices and lifeexperiences.
For example, the FourAgreements.
One of the four agreements, ifyou've read that book, is
something I'm going to not sayit exactly how it's written in
the book, but it's somethinglike not everybody experiences
the world like you do.
You know what I mean.
(35:39):
So like, really, if we reallywant to be an empathetic leader
that ends up as a safe, trulysafe, nonjudgmental space, we
really must cultivate skills ofnonjudgmentally viewing other
folks and cultivate the skilland this is a kind of core
competency as a coach which Ithink all leaders should sort of
(36:00):
be coaches in a way is reallycultivate that skill of seeing
the potential and positivecontribution of the people
around us.
You know what I mean, becauseit's very easy to get into that
judgmental space of like, oh,why aren't they doing this or
why aren't they doing that, andinstead maybe start to reflect
(36:25):
on, well, what are person is notdoing in a workplace?
That's different, that's awhole.
How do we hold peopleaccountable?
How do we challenge them torise to what the role requires,
(36:47):
that type of stuff or what theteam culture is built on?
Right, and not everyone isgoing to make the cut there
either.
Right, some people are not afit for our team.
I'm not saying this necessarilyabout your family, but but I'm
saying it more about, you know,the cultivation of nonjudgment
and the recognition of whatpeople actually bring to the
(37:09):
table as a diverse person.
You know what I mean, and I saydiverse with a very broad
stroke there, meaning not you,right, not exactly how you would
do it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:21):
Yeah, and come on, ben, I'm just going to
call you out Red flags here, man.
Ben Larson (37:27):
Yeah, I've never claimed not to have them.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:32):
But you know, I think that what I'm hearing
Melanie say and is sort of anundertone and looking at
overcoming fear, uncertainty andtaking calculated risks.
(38:00):
As leaders, we have aresponsibility to keep trying
harder, to keep doing hardthings to better ourselves.
First, by whether it's openingour mind to a diverse range of
experiences of other people'slives or to new concepts or
ideas that someone might havethat aren't our own, that are
(38:20):
going to be unlocks for us, thatthat's going to help us to
really kick 2025's butt right,and that's exciting for me and
I'm feeling inspired as we'retalking about this.
Melanie Curtis (38:36):
I want to say one more thing about this that I
think will potentially help.
Another thing that I talk aboutis this idea of discomfort as
the door.
So, again, talking aboutframing peak performance Okay,
yeah, fear, right, you're on theedge, you're feeling fear.
Human trigger Okay, master abunch of skills around fear and
you're going to be able to gofurther than you would have if
(38:58):
fear were to stop you.
Cool, all that, check done,talked about it.
There's plenty more to talkabout, but the next thing I want
to talk about is this notionthat discomfort.
It really is something toconsider, right?
So, in this example of what youshared, ben, about, you're in
this leadership position, oryou're this type A person.
You're constantly surrounded bytype A people.
(39:19):
You maybe have this built-incomfort zone, familiarity with
those types of folks, becausethat's where you feel good and
live and all this stuff and,again, myself too.
And so the discomfort there islike okay, looking at the
discomfort there is like okay,like looking at the discomfort
that you experience in thepresence of the other folks that
(39:42):
are causing you the rub, inwhatever scenario it might be
and again, it may be you, butany leader.
I really this is really auniversal thing.
You're just the example becauseyou're literally here, but you
know what I mean.
That sense, because discomfortis not always only fear, right,
it's also coming up against ourcurrent existing habits, right.
(40:07):
And I cannot recommend morehighly for people to read the
book the Power of Habit byCharles Duhigg.
It's, I think, a game changer.
I think it's a crucial criticalpiece of just education.
A lot of people also talk aboutthe book Atomic Habits written
by James Clear, also anexcellent book, I think in my
(40:28):
experience.
Read Charles first, the Powerof Habit first, then read Atomic
Habits.
They build on each other, butthe power of habit is, I think,
the baseline, fundamentalunderstanding.
So discomfort is present whenwe are pushing past what we are
habitually already conditionedto do, whether that is how we
(40:48):
think, whether that is us eatinga certain thing.
I always kind of share thisexample where I would go to New
York City.
I live in New Jersey, I go toNew York City on the train and I
had these two collapsed habitsof when I would go to the city.
Every time I would come home Iwould get this lemon poppy seed
(41:11):
muffin, and it was just acollapsed habit.
And this is again a little foodthing.
I'm like I don't know I'm usingfood details today, but I had
to recognize that that was ahabit that I had and one that
wasn't serving me and I had tostart to detangle them.
(41:32):
So the discomfort came and thenext time I went to the city now
with this new awareness, thisnew commitment, to be like oh, I
got to stop eating thosemuffins.
They make me feel bad, I feelbrain fog the next day, yada,
yada, yada, the moment when Inormally get that muffin not so
easy, right.
So it's like I had to beprepared for that.
So, thinking about ways bothlearning from what we feel and
(41:56):
then preparing ourselves in sucha way that when we meet that
moment again, that discomfortagain that comes from whatever
habit we're trying to shift orwhatever new habit we're trying
to build, that stuff is super,super important.
But it's also really excitingbecause it lets us, it really
gives us the way to get towhatever next level we're trying
(42:17):
to get to.
Ben Larson (42:18):
Yeah, I love talking about uncomfortableness.
It's because I mean working instartups especially.
It's like being comfortable inthe uncomfortable is really your
key to success and surviving.
Actually it's surviving thestress, right.
And and then just another quotethat I often like hear or or
(42:41):
repeat uh, is is just thisconcept of if you're not
uncomfortable, you're notgrowing yeah and so I do like
this idea of taking thatuncomfortable and putting it
over here instead of like thegrowth, like where am I
uncomfortable with certainpeople that I'm interacting with
and and exploring a little bit?
Melanie Curtis (42:59):
So I really appreciate that be hard to
really look at where we feeldiscomfort.
Some of it we will not want tosee it.
So that's, if I really am like,okay, you really want to get to
(43:32):
the true like this, we have tobe willing to go to those places
that we have been historicallyunwilling to go inside ourselves
.
Otherwise, that stuff that isunseen to us will always hold us
back.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:46):
The idea of being held back by the places
that we've been and where wecame from.
The flip side of that is alsoabout how we show up today and
Ben brought up and seeded alittle bit about his morning
routine earlier in the show andhe shared about it.
(44:08):
And you talked about relentlesscommitment.
We talked about breaking habits.
There's this concept about thewhole person and how these
things that happened beforeaffect us in our day-to-day life
now, but also as leaders,sometimes we feel that we're
identified by the work and Ithink that there's a disconnect
(44:32):
by all the other pieces ofourselves, and a big part of
that and peak performance thatyou talk about is the commitment
to the other parts of ourselves.
As leaders, what we're doingphysically to keep our bodies at
peak performance, which canlead to our minds being at peak
performance, which can then leadto ourselves being able to show
up, and it's no problem.
(44:53):
We aren't scared ofuncomfortability with a team
member because we just pushedour body to some crazy limits
and it's all of a sudden, itjust all kind of comes from
there, and I'm curious of whatsome of your routines are that
are the ways that you continueto push your body and yourself,
(45:15):
so that your work isn't so scary.
Melanie Curtis (45:19):
Yeah, thank you.
I love that question.
I want to first double tap onthe parts work.
If people have not heard ofRichard Schwartz, he developed a
therapeutic modality calledinternal family systems.
I would highly recommendGoogling it, checking it out.
It's sort of also known asparts work but, it can be really
(45:41):
useful.
Ben Larson (45:42):
There's a book.
No Bad Parts?
I think no Bad Parts.
Yep, yep.
Melanie Curtis (45:46):
Totally recommend that book as well.
Yeah, for sure.
There's workbooks and stuff andthere are definitely therapists
out there that are trained inthis modality that can hold a
meditative space for a partswork.
Meditation, it's all.
It's really really good stuffIf it's something that's you're
kind of called toward.
But, anna Rae, to answer yourquestion, the other thing I want
to touch on quickly is is thewhat's the word I want to say
(46:13):
like magnetic?
It's more like an inertia ofidentity, right?
So people have known me agazillion years as a pro
skydiver and I am a pro skydiver.
I totally am.
But the more deeper nuancedthing with that, for me it's a
(46:33):
good example of who am I, if Ilet go of being a pro skydiver,
doing this work right, and so Istill very much identify as a
pro skydiver.
But how that looks in my worldnow is vastly changed.
I skydive much, much less and Ido very specific skydiving work
(46:56):
now that is connected toamplifying voices and messages
that matter, using the sort ofsuperpower of skydiving to
capture attention and attachingit to sort of women and activist
efforts that I care about.
So that I say that just becauseit was.
It's been a long time for me tobe like, oh my God, well, what
if I?
It's been a long time for me tobe like, oh my God, well, what
(47:29):
if I?
When I first started coaching,will anybody even be interested
in me as a coach?
Am I going to fail because theydon't like me as a focus?
It's just wonderful work.
But, like the keynote speaking,why I touch on that is that
that is in large part how myprofessional life and my
connection to contribution andskydiving has evolved right, has
(47:50):
matured.
It's like I know that I canmake a great deal of difference
for my sport, my community, bydoing it this way, by talking
about it being a model ofleadership outside of the
skydiving community in the waythat I am, by contributing, by
telling stories, and maybe somepeople go and try skydiving,
maybe a lot of people don't,that doesn't really matter.
(48:11):
But the point is is thatevolves?
But the point is is thatevolves?
So to get to your actualquestion about what are my
routines, it's connected to thekeynote speaking, which is why I
told all that other stuff.
Intuitively, I knew so.
Last year I deployed MelanieCurtis type A like badass you
(48:36):
know what?
Because that version of me, Ilove her, I love that version of
me.
She's awesome and she's very,very powerful.
So when I deploy her and she'sheld very accountable, I can get
a ton done.
I ended 2024 really burned out,and so what do I do with that?
Well, I was like well, I have aton of skills in my toolbox.
(48:58):
I just need to get back to them.
So I'm a person who has a wordfor the year, and my word for
this year is consistency, butspecifically relative to my
meditation, to exercise and tohealthy eating.
None of this is new.
Healthy eating None of this isnew.
It's like boring, almost that.
That's my answer, right, butthe truth is, is that that
(49:28):
consistency in meditation andthat consistency, that
commitment to it, is what Ibelieve intuitively is connected
to my success as a keynotespeaker?
Right, like to really reallygrow in that lane, which is what
I'm, what I want.
So that, plus prospecting foran hour a day like that type of
routine, I think, is also reallyimportant things that I haven't
done in the past but I'm reallydigging into now.
Ben Larson (49:48):
This, this idea of creating and identifying the
persona that you are choosing tobe in a given situation or a
given day or a given year, uh,so powerful.
And I say that as someone whogrew up identifying as an
introvert.
And there's a lot of peoplethat look at me and like,
(50:11):
bullshit you're, you're a ceo,you do public speaking, you host
a podcast like there's no wayyou're an introvert.
And you know, I love that.
Like creating the, that routine, those habits in the morning
and then giving yourself theopportunity to enter the day, be
like who do I need to be today?
And if you're going on stage ortalking to your team, I remember
(50:33):
when we were, um, when we'refirst getting into the pandemic,
and you, like, you know, I hadmy routine in the morning I'd
shower, I'd do my hair, I'd puton a collared shirt and I'd go
into my room and stand in frontof my computer for 10 hours and
it even got to the point where Iput it right above my camera
(50:54):
and it just said showtime.
And I can't remember where Igot this advice from, but it was
just like this reminder thatit's like oh yeah, I have to, I
have to be on for my team inthis particular case and it just
it applies to so many thingswhen you're public speaking is
like going on.
It's like who's this audience?
What did they expect me to be?
And I'm going to be that personand making it a choice.
(51:17):
I just love that.
And Melanie like and I know thatfear probably no longer exists,
but I imagine you being anamazing coach, uh, and that
everyone thinks that, because Ifeel like I could talk to you
forever.
Um, anna Rae, do you have anylast questions for Melanie?
I know we're getting close tothe top of the hour here.
AnnaRae Grabstein (51:39):
You know, I think that I want our listeners
to know how they can stayconnected to you and your work,
Melanie.
So what's the best?
Way for people to find you andtalk exists.
Melanie Curtis (51:53):
I'm like it still exists.
I'm just like committed tobeing as masterful as I can be
with the skill set around it soI can do what I want to do with
this one precious life, as itwere.
But yeah, I would love toconnect with anybody who felt
inspired and motivated orwhatever drawn to what I've been
sharing about my name, melanieCurtis, my website,
(52:16):
melaniecurtiscom, instagram.
I'm on Instagram a lot,linkedin, for sure.
Connect with me here, butMelanieCurtis11 on Instagram and
, yeah, please reach out.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:27):
Awesome.
Well, this has been such aninspiration.
Ben and I are both reallycommitted to showing up as whole
people as we navigate thecomplexities of this wild
industry that we work in, and weare excited to be encouraging
more conversations like this,because I think it's needed.
(52:48):
So, melanie, we would love foryou to give our listeners a last
call as a final message beforewe say goodbye.
Melanie Curtis (53:00):
I this is probably going to sound weird,
but I love you.
I mean it sounds so weird, butI mean there's like when we
really connect to like we'retogether in this, like we're
really together in this.
You know, even people I don'tknow I feel like I have love for
(53:20):
.
So I try to really rest in thatand all that, even when I'm
showing up, ben, like you said,even when I'm on, when I'm
trying to embody all that energy, it's still I really try to be
really rooted in love, and so Iwould invite people to really
consider that in the roles thatthey, that they hold and the
ways that they lead.
Ben Larson (53:41):
Wow, I love that and we love you too.
Thank you so much for beinghere and sharing this hour with
us, and what a great departurefrom from our our typical show.
So, melanie, I can't wait untilthe next time we get to catch
up.
I'll certainly be reaching outto you personally.
Got some work to do.
Melanie Curtis (54:02):
Thank you both so much.
Ben Larson (54:04):
All right, bye, anna Rae.
Thank you for queuing that up.
That was incredible.
AnnaRae Grabstein (54:10):
Don't.
I have cool friends.
Ben Larson (54:12):
You do have cool friends.
I mean not to sound surprised,but you know, and what do you
think folks?
A little bit of a departure,like I said, from our typical
show.
But if you liked it, we'll domore.
I'm sure Anna Rae has more coolfriends beyond Melanie.
Don't forget to like, subscribe, share, do all the things Huge.
(54:35):
Thank you to our audience forcontinuing to grow and engage
with us.
We're having so much fun.
We're going to be live in miamiat canadatacon at the beginning
of february, so if you'replanning on going, make sure you
keep an eye out for us.
We'll be very engaged with theshow.
A huge shout out and thank youto the team.
Ian and Delta Emerald Reallylove it, really excited to go
(54:58):
there.
And, yeah, all I can say isthank you to our producer, eric
Rossetti, and our teams atVertosa and Wolfmeyer and, of
course, the team at KitPrint forsupporting this show.
Until next time, stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high.
That's the show.
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