February 28, 2025 โข 48 mins
Join Ben Larson & AnnaRae Grabstein on High Spirits as they explore the journey of transforming a hemp marketplace and media site into a multi-state cannabis brand with a strong community focus. We'll be joined by Kate Miller, co-founder and CEO of Miss Grass , who has masterfully steered the brand from its roots as a hemp marketplace to a prominent player in the regulated cannabis market.
๐ ๐๐ฏ๐ผ๐๐ ๐ง๐ต๐ถ๐ ๐๐ฝ๐ถ๐๐ผ๐ฑ๐ฒ: In this deep dive, Kate will share her strategies for cultivating a dedicated community, the challenges and triumphs of scaling in a highly competitive industry, and the pivotal decisions that have shaped Miss Grass. Weโll explore everything from the early days of building brand loyalty through education and content to the complexities of navigating multi-state operations.
๐ก ๐ช๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ฌ๐ผ๐'๐น๐น ๐๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฟ๐ป:
๐ช๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐
๐ฉ๐๐๐๐
๐ณ๐๐๐๐๐๐: Discover the strategies Miss Grass used to build and scale its community, and how focusing on education and content creation has fueled brand loyalty.
๐ซ๐๐๐๐๐-๐๐-๐ช๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐ซ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐: Learn about the challenges and advantages of maintaining direct relationships with consumers, and how these insights have influenced product development.
๐ต๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐ฌ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐
๐ช๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐: Gain insights into the strategic decisions behind market expansion, dealing with competition from larger operators, and how Miss Grass has adapted its approach to maintain brand integrity.
๐ถ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐ฌ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐ฏ๐๐๐ ๐ด๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐: Understand the differences between the state-regulated cannabis industry and the hemp marketplace from a go-to-market and operational perspective.
๐ ๐ ๐ฒ๐ฒ๐ ๐๐ฎ๐๐ฒ ๐ ๐ถ๐น๐น๐ฒ๐ฟ: Kate Miller is the co-founder and CEO of Miss Grass, a brand at the forefront of transforming cannabis culture. Her journey from New Jersey to the West Coast and back again has been marked by bold leadership and a keen eye for market dynamics. Kateโs unique approach to business and her commitment to community, education, and quality have established Miss Grass as a leader in the cannabis industry.
Tune into High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast this week to get an inside look at the cannabis industry through the lens of one of its most innovative leaders.
#HighSpirits #CannabisCommunity #MissGrass #Entrepreneurship #HempIndustry
--
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Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:05):
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Ben Larson (00:53):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 77.
77.
That's a big number Of highspirits.
I'm Ben Larson, and today I ambut a ship without its rudder.
(01:18):
Anna Rae no, anna Rae is notwith me today.
She is sick.
Anna, we are recording onThursday, february 27, 2025.
And we do have a great show foryou, albeit without my co-host,
and I think I'm probably goingto jump right in today.
Nra usually covers the news.
(01:39):
I merely provide colorcommentary.
Next week, we have the CannabisBusiness News Roundup, so
please tune in for that.
But being that we'll skip thenews, I'm going to get right
into my intro for our amazingguest.
Today we have Kate Miller, theCEO and co-founder of Miss Grass
, and we're going to go throughher journey, her personal
(02:00):
journey from the East Coast tothe West Coast and back to the
East Coast, and similarly, herjourney with Ms Grass, who
started in hemp, went toregulated cannabis and may or
may not be finding its way backin hemp.
So, without further ado, let meintroduce to you Kate Miller.
Kate, welcome to the show.
Kate Miller (02:21):
Hey Ben, Thanks for having me.
Ben Larson (02:23):
Yeah, it's so good to see you.
How is everything out there onthe East Coast?
Kate Miller (02:27):
Cold, but excellent .
Otherwise how about you?
Ben Larson (02:30):
Oh, cold, not cold.
West Coast is beautiful.
We are wondering if this isreal spring or fake spring, but
I think the Bay Area isexpecting sunshine and 70
degrees today.
Kate Miller (02:44):
That's so nice.
Oh well, I miss Anna Rae.
Anna Rae, if you're watchinghopefully you're not and resting
, but I hope you feel better.
Ben Larson (02:51):
She better be watching.
We need the numbers, All right?
Well, let's jump right in Forour listeners who don't know,
just give us a little bit of anoverview of what Miss Grass is
and you know I gave a little bitof an introduction, I guess,
about how you started in hemp,so maybe explain how the
(03:14):
marketplace has evolved into thebrand that is Miss Grass.
Kate Miller (03:19):
Yeah.
So Miss Grass is a brand reallyrooted in community in the
cannabis space.
We launched in January of 2018,so basically seven years ago a
little bit over and we have beenpretty relentlessly obsessed
with our community.
So we started off as an e-commarketplace.
(03:43):
Technically, the business modelwas a contextual commerce
platform where we had a hempmarketplace selling all
third-party hemp-derivedcannabinoid and cannabis
accessory brands and an onlinemagazine where we really
leveraged content and events tonot only bring people into our
online site and convert themthrough our marketplace into our
(04:06):
online site and convert themthrough our marketplace, but
really the intention of that wasto scale a nationwide community
, collect a ton of first partydata and like truly
understanding who our communityis, what they're consuming, why
they're consuming it, whenthey're consuming it, and using
all of that to ultimately informwhat became our first product,
which was roughly two yearspost-launching the brand.
In September of 2020, welaunched Miss Grass Minis mini
(04:29):
packs of pre-rolled joints andhave since expanded flower and
pre-roll in the flower andpre-roll category in the state
regulated channels, so arecurrently operational in seven
markets.
Ben Larson (04:42):
Wow, all right.
Well, there's a lot there.
We're going to dig into all ofthat, and so I'm going to kind
of rewind us back to thebeginning and to 2018, launching
a hemp marketplace.
Give us a little bit of an ideaof what the landscape looked
like back then.
Back then, I'm talking about asif it was decades ago.
(05:02):
But hey, in the cannabis andhemp industry, it is like
decades ago.
Kate Miller (05:05):
Yeah, it feels, that way.
Ben Larson (05:07):
Yeah, what was the landscape like?
How competitive was it?
Was it new to kind of build abranded marketplace?
I guess?
Kate Miller (05:15):
Yeah, well, one.
I think our approach tobuilding brand was new for the
space, not new for CPG was newfor the space, not new for CPG,
but the approach of building andscaling community first, before
launching product.
We didn't see that yet in thecannabis space.
We saw a lot of brandslaunching product and then
(05:37):
turning their attention to focuson building a community and
brand loyalty around thatproduct.
And, as you know, since thismarket is very, this industry is
very you know, each state isits own market it becomes really
challenging to, once you startentering on the product side, to
really focus on building anational and global brand
(06:00):
presence and community.
So that's why we entered theway that we did.
At that time, the 2018 Farm Billhad just passed.
January of 2018 also was themonth that California flipped
and had its first adult use saleof cannabis.
So I would say right place,right time.
(06:22):
I know people have differingopinions on what luck is, but I
would say we got lucky that welaunched at that moment.
Unfortunately, I would say itwas also kind of the height of
the Me Too movement, which, asfemale founders, we also
benefited from that.
So there was a lot of kind offactors that at that time we got
(06:48):
a ton of press which drove alot of early traction and
community to our site whichconverted for us.
Also at that time there were youknow it was the CBD craze.
Was was happening and therewere a lot of brands launching
CBD products.
However, there wasn't a lot ofinventory while still getting
(07:26):
really healthy margins for adropship business, which is what
it was early days.
It evolved as the business grewand we did start holding
inventory but ultimately wesunsetted that marketplace and I
should say now, looking back, Icould have been selling Delta 9
, thc, m-derived products thatwhole time.
I didn't realize that then, butnow we sunsetted that when we
(07:51):
launched our product At thattime we were still such a small
team and we weren't seeing asmany synergies from having both
the marketplace and focusing ongrowing and scaling B2B sales
with our products intodispensaries like to use.
Ben Larson (08:27):
What does community mean to you and how did you
build community around thisplatform, around the products?
Because I think it's animportant strategy for brands to
understand, especially whenthey're limited on capital.
Because, with the beveragecategory that is exploding right
now, there's arguably hundredsof brands hitting the market,
and the big question is Nowthere's arguably hundreds of
brands hitting the market andthe big question is who's
(08:50):
building a long-lasting brand, abrand that will persist over
time and without bucket loads ofcash, it's really hard to build
that kind of ubiquitous brand,and so a way to kind of get
around that is to build acommunity, and I'm curious, like
some of the things that you didwith Miss Grass, to be able to
do that.
Kate Miller (09:06):
Yeah.
So one like I think we also inthis industry not only throw the
term community around a lot,not just in our industry but
other CPG and other industries,but also even the word brand,
I've noticed in this space kindof means something different to
operators and I've heard a lot,oh, they have a beautiful brand.
And this space kind of meanssomething different to operators
and I've heard a lot, oh, theyhave a beautiful brand.
(09:28):
And when you kind of doubleclick into what someone means by
that, they're talking aboutbranding, like they're talking
about the visual identity of abrand and that's one element of
it and an important element.
Don't get me wrong.
But you know that's not just itfor us, and when I say and when
(09:49):
we've always believed that, likebrand equity will drive long
term value in this industry, asit does in any CPG space, like
it goes far beyond just thevisual identity world of the
brand For us, like we reallymeasured that a lot by our
community size, email being aplatform that we were really
(10:14):
focused on, especially earlydays and still today, like there
were so many restrictions onwhat we could do on social
channels and different platforms, and email felt like this
channel that we can like let ourhair down and like say what we
want and connect directly withour community.
Ben Larson (10:33):
So for us that has been a really important
community channel for us from,for us from day one, email I
just wanted to highlight thatbecause, like, email is like the
oldest of quote unquotecommunities for these channels
and probably one that we'reneglecting a bit, and so, yeah,
dig into that a little bit.
Kate Miller (10:54):
It's been a really important channel and of course
in the DDC world is a reallyimportant conversion channel.
Now we don't see as muchconversion on our email, or at
least direct conversion, becausewe don't have, you know, it's
not connected to POS atdispensary so we actually don't
have that data.
But as we do launch our D2Cagain, that'll become a really
(11:17):
important channel for us.
But going back to your questionon kind of like what we did at
the beginning and what we stilldo, early days our site was a
was a big community converter tous, meaning like people would
go to our site, there would beemail pop ups, there was like
(11:46):
age gated content that we had onour site to garner and capture
someone's email and put themthrough our email flows and our
journeys and our email journeyto kind of connect further with
our community.
We've done probably close to100 events in the lifetime of
Miss Grass with over 20,000people attending our events.
Obviously the RSVPs you captureemail that way and by RSVPing
(12:10):
they're opting in to receivemarketing communication from us.
That also was a big driver forus in scaling our community list
.
Ben Larson (12:20):
Okay, all right, and now we're going to kind of
transition to that sunsettingmoment where you've observed the
marketplace, you've decided tolaunch your own branded products
, but you weren't going tolaunch it on your own site, nor
were you going to launch it inhemp, so you decided to launch
many pre-rolls in the regulatedmarket.
(12:40):
What drove that jump Like?
You're collecting all this data, you're building this community
.
Kate Miller (12:49):
What told you like, this was the product and this
was the channel Our communitytold us.
So I would say, like, from thevery beginning, that was always
the play of like launch, collecta ton of data, including
purchasing data, which we hadfrom understanding what our
community was buying fromthird-party brands at that time,
but essentially use that toinform what would become a Miss
Grass product line.
(13:10):
So that was always the play,I'd say.
If you looked at our firstinvestor deck, that whole
journey was going to take sixmonths and that journey took two
years.
So maybe the timelines weren'texactly planned out, but the
journey was.
And Again, the beauty of havingthat first-person relationship
(13:32):
with our community and ourcustomer base was we really used
that to inform what became theMistgrass Minis and our other
product offerings.
Now, to give you an example,when we were developing our
first product, we put out a, asurvey to our community.
(13:53):
Overnight, 7500 people of fromour list replied it was a pretty
like detailed survey wasn'tjust a like that's a great
return.
Ben Larson (14:04):
We've done surveys before.
Kate Miller (14:05):
They don't come back in those quantities there
was, of course, incentivesaround like filling in the
survey and you, you know,getting them in.
But yes, like and that's whatthe beauty to of this community,
it's like a true, authenticconnection with the brand and
the lifestyle and what we allrepresent.
Like it's a two way community.
It's not just this brand, likepushing out marketing you know
(14:31):
jargon and 20 percent off emailsto them, it's, it's truly
adding value.
But going back to that survey,like we asked a lot of questions
in that survey, including, liketheir form factor preference.
The minis, for instance, wasinformed by that survey.
We, we, a lot of our communitymembers mentioned that they
(14:53):
don't get through a full onegram joint in one sitting.
So that, ultimately, is whatinformed the point four.
It also informed we asked a lotabout occasion, like when they
were consuming what, and thathelped inform the terpene
profiles that we look for, whichultimately elicit the effect
(15:15):
that our community wanted forour fast times, quiet times and
all times products.
Ben Larson (15:21):
Wow, I love that customer and having direct
access to their purchasingpatterns and all this kind of
stuff too.
It's still being the samecustomer, same community and
having connection to them, butlosing a little bit of or a lot
(15:41):
bit of, the visibility of thepurchasing and the sell-through
because of everything that we'vediscussed on the show about the
challenges of dealing with theregulated market and retail.
How did you overcome that?
What were some of the tools ortactics that you've used, or
probably continue to use, tocreate that bridge and really
(16:03):
leverage the connection to thecommunity that you have?
Kate Miller (16:06):
Yeah.
So you know we still engagewith our owned community
channels social site and emailjust like we did.
There's less, you know,conversion focused emails
driving people to our D2C sitenow, but there still are.
You know, for about 80% of ouremail lists we have zip codes.
(16:31):
So, to give you an example, nowwe'll work with our retail
partners.
We'll essentially align withthem on a sales strategy and
partnership that includes apromotional calendar and
programming for the next quarterNot everyone's program out a
quarter in advance, but let'sjust say the ones are and then,
(16:52):
on larger occasions, we'llactually use our email list and
segment around their doors topush out on our channel some of
the promotions and partnershipsthat we're running with the
retailers.
Unfortunately, though, we don'thave then the true conversion
data from that, but a lot of ittoo, is optically.
(17:13):
Our retail partners are superjazzed that we're able to
directly communicate with theMiss Grass community and drive
them to their doors.
It's gone a long way for us.
Further, we right now programout, kind of like every other
month, brand-led campaigns thatthen have extensions into retail
(17:37):
.
So, to give you a in real timeexample, we have a Women's Month
campaign for all of March thatreally centers on like
celebrating the femininity ofthis plant being a female plant,
and celebrating the woman incannabis.
That includes a whole host ofassets that we provide to our
retail partners, including, likeone of our email segments is
(18:00):
are just straight going tobuyers and marketing marketing
execs in retail doors so that we, instead of our sales manager
needing to email every singledoor, we'll, through our email
segment, blast out thesecampaigns and the campaign
assets, including like the 20%off or if it is tied to a
promotion, directly to theirinboxes so that they, on a
(18:24):
regular basis, are getting likebranded assets from Miss Grass
that they can very easily pluginto like their own channels
digital menu, banners, email,sms.
And then we also program thatthose messaging it's not promo
led but a similar thematicmessaging on our brand channel,
(18:45):
so that there is this kind oflike holistic campaign and
interactions with our communityacross every single brand
touchpoint, across everyretailer that carries miss grass
.
Ben Larson (18:55):
Not everyone participates in them, but for
the most part, retailers oursocial site and email I'm
curious uh, you know somethingthat we talk about internally a
lot is just creating the linkageto the customer through the
packaging, like finding ways toencourage them to like
quote-unquote, click through.
You know whether it's a qr codeor url.
(19:17):
Have you, have you tried any ofthese tactics, like whether
it's like your, your own, likedesign or a third party, because
I've seen people that you knowapply stickers, that kind of
thing.
Does any of it work?
Have you had any success withthat?
Kate Miller (19:31):
I.
I don't want to throw out thehat and say like no, but we need
to figure that out.
I do think there's a bigopportunity there, like when I
think of how many minis we soldlast year, and even if we can
convert five, two to 5% of thosemini purchases into emails and
(19:56):
not only is that like acommunity member, that's a true,
like customer email that we arecapturing Like that would be
amazing.
We did do things like our miniscome in exterior CR bags and
we've put inserts into that CRbag, including a QR code for
people and like a CTA for peopleto sign up to our email.
(20:17):
We just didn't see conversionfrom that.
However, I think we couldprobably test it out with like a
stronger CTA or incentive orthings like that.
Similarly, we have retaildisplays, like these table tents
that we put up in retail doors,those that allow us that has a
QR code to sign up for our email.
(20:38):
But, same thing, we haven'tseen a ton of conversion from
that.
Ben Larson (20:42):
I was interested in as a result of the pandemic was
the normalization of QR codes.
I was very like anti QR code.
I even had some ideas likecrazy entrepreneurial ideas in
the past that popped in my headabout oh, it's like we could put
(21:04):
QR codes in art galleries andpeople could use them and then,
like you know, really understandthe whole, like history of that
art piece and the artist.
Anyways, I'm rambling.
Kate Miller (21:13):
That's, I'm sure, happening now in our gallery.
Ben Larson (21:16):
I'm sure I'm sure, it's totally a thing.
I totally missed that.
It's okay, I'm happy with whatI'm doing.
But yeah, I was like I wasthinking that maybe this would
be the catalyst for it workingon projects on products, right,
and, and I just don't think it.
Kate Miller (21:31):
It it has translated like people using it
for menus at restaurant hasn'ttranslated to people opting to
do it products I think the nextthing we want to test out is, um
, like using that to onboardthem to a loyalty program.
And there's a brand, um, blackBuffalo.
(21:53):
It's not a cannabis brand.
They sell, um, they're in thetobacco space or alternative
tobacco space.
Um, and they, um, they, I thinkthey this is powered by Yopo,
but it they consumers whopurchase their uh tins in, let's
say, a seven 11.
On the packaging itself there'sa call to action of like scan
(22:16):
your receipt or something andreceive $5 back.
So customers and they get greatconversion from this.
To my understanding, Customersscan, they upload their receipt.
There's a platform that allhandles this.
That customer gets $5 back andthen also, is then like, kind of
subscribe to a loyalty programwhere, like, you can actually
(22:37):
start earning rewards, which isobviously a lot easier on a DTC
platform, but start earningrewards for buying per, for
buying product in retail, and,to my understanding, they've
seen a good amount of conversionfrom that.
Ben Larson (22:54):
Oh, that's great, that's great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:56):
Okay.
Kate Miller (22:57):
Everyone loves to get money back, yeah.
Ben Larson (23:02):
As a geek I just told it's like trying to break
this code is such an interestingchallenge.
Okay, I want to get a littlebit more into just kind of how
the business has has scaled.
You know, obviously you startedin a single state, you started
in California, right?
Kate Miller (23:18):
Correct.
Ben Larson (23:19):
Okay, so that was your first state.
You're now in seven, which is alot.
Tell us a little bit about thesecond state and so on, and how
you strategically chose, like,where you were going to go next,
because every market seems verydifferent.
And the next set of questions Ican ask you is about, like, how
you build partnerships and thesophistication of each
(23:40):
individual supply chain, becausethat's something that's near
and dear to my heart.
But, yeah, like, how did youchoose that second state and
then so on and so forth.
Kate Miller (23:49):
After that, Well, I would say the second state was
chosen, not in the way that wechoose states now, but the
second state was definitely abig learning for us.
We entered Nevada as our secondstate, which was the only state
that we pulled out of.
So that is probably telling.
(24:10):
But ultimately we chose itbased on a relationship that I
had with an operator who was inthe California market, who went
to the Nevada market and it wasa big operator and the deal made
sense where it was a zeroworking capital deal for us,
where the operator would buy ourpackaging, they cultivate,
manufacture and distribute andwe get a royalty on gross
(24:32):
wholesale.
They cultivate, manufacture anddistribute and we get a royalty
on gross wholesale.
So you know a lot of learnings.
With all new things, Idefinitely have a kind of like
stricter due diligence,including like what's the
financial stability of oursupply chain?
Ben Larson (24:46):
partners.
That's really tough in thisindustry.
Kate Miller (24:48):
It's tough but so important to understand that
because ultimately it was anexpensive lesson and bad debt
write off on our booksUltimately how do you find that
Like what are?
Ben Larson (25:03):
do you just ask directly and whether you know
how transparent they're willingto be?
Is that your tell, or is therelike a more nuanced way of going
about it?
Kate Miller (25:18):
I think like that is definitely one of the
questions.
But also similar to when you'revetting talent to for your team
and you go through referencechecks, like similar to that.
And as you know, unfortunatelyor fortunately, I don't know how
I how I view it but likethere's a small group of
cannabis investors who have likefunded a lot of these operators
.
So at this point we kind of areable to ask the right people to
(25:43):
like really know the whatthey're like balance sheets and
I like cash and things like thatand certain investors are more
trustworthy than other investors.
For sure.
So so, yeah, that that was alesson, though did like we were
in the Nevada market for for abit, so we did gain the like
(26:07):
internal muscle on reallyidentifying and refining our
state expansion playbook andlike our what is go to market
look like, as well as like whatdoes launch look like the first
three months in a market weconsider launch and then what
does um it look like after that,which I think the strategies of
(26:27):
having a successful launch andthe strategies to retain and
grow the business post thelaunch hype is over has evolved
for us and is a bit different.
But as it relates to like how wechoose states, we have I call
it we internally it's labeledthe state matrix, but in that
state matrix there's like everystate listed in a column where
(26:52):
the state is, from a regulatoryperspective, au medical it's
expected to flip next year,whatever it may be, the market
size, the number of dispensaries, the population of 21 plus
which breaks out to the likenumber of people per dispensary,
and then also the growth rateof the past year, like is it a
(27:15):
market that isn't growing?
Is it actually declining?
Is it still like super highgrowth, which is typically when
it's like just turning on, andthen below that we have kind of
like the key operators in saidstates.
There's obviously some stateswhere if you can talk to like
five buyers and be in like 70%of the market, and then there's
(27:38):
other states, based on the stateregulations that you know, cap
the number of doors.
So there's like hundreds ofoperators to get to the like 70,
80% of the market andultimately we look at a like
where do we already have a builtin community base that, like
from day one, we can activateand be successful?
because you have codes ExactlyNice and then be marked that
(28:05):
market data that I was talkingabout we tend to prioritize low
to zero working capital statesthat we can structure deals with
operators who are financiallystable, have high quality
product brand alignment as well,as we look at markets that we
feel confident we can get intoand get into roughly like 70 to
(28:27):
75% upwards of the doors Mm-hmm.
Ben Larson (28:32):
How do you think about timing of these markets
After seeing cycle after cycle,right?
You mentioned kind of theexuberance period.
Do all the other elements thatyou just described kind of
outweigh that and then you justunderstand that that is the
potentiality of that givenmarket?
Or do you try to avoid certaintiming when it comes to the
(28:55):
newness of a market?
Or is first mover advantage athing?
Kate Miller (29:00):
Yes, it is, I would say, which I wouldn't say
that's the case for.
We haven't seen that play outwith some operators, but as a
brand play, we have definitelyseen the advantage of getting in
some of these market early andcapturing market share and being
able to maintain that marketshare.
If you look in Californiaprobably the most saturated
(29:23):
market that there is and youlook at the BDS, top 10 brands
like many on that list are thebrands that were on shelves
January 2018 when Californiaflipped, and they were top then
and they're still top now.
So I do think there's anadvantage.
Also, when markets just turn on,there tends to be and this
(29:44):
isn't the case for every market,but there tends to be a supply
shortage.
So there's just like not a tonof flour, not a ton of brands,
not a ton of you know thingsthat retailers can purchase.
So I don't want to say it'slike easier, but the
(30:05):
conversation is a lot easier tostructure partnerships then than
it is when these then, whereMichigan is right now, or even
where California is, where, hey,like, I'm selling you a
pre-roll, but there's also 5000cheaper pre-rolls on the market,
which there are definitelyretailers who do do that and
(30:28):
aren't just price shopping.
It's just a harder sell asthese markets are becoming super
, super saturated.
Ben Larson (30:36):
What are some of the states, or the state that has
you most excited right now, thatyou're either currently in or
planning to enter?
Kate Miller (30:45):
So I'd say two.
I am a Jersey girl, so want toposition that first and we have
been in the New Jersey marketfor a bit, evolved a lot even in
the past couple months.
It has.
(31:11):
A lot more retailers have comeonline.
We're just starting to see someof the more independent
cultivators coming online, whichhas been great, but that
continues to be a really goodmarket for us and one that you
know we've.
We have a lot of market sharein the pre-roll category there
and, um, our brand reallyresonates with our community and
(31:32):
consumers.
And then the second state I'dI'd call out is our newest state
, um, missouri, which we justlaunched at the beginning of
this market this year, and ithas one like the.
The cannabis market there hasbeen like so welcoming and
(31:52):
incredible, and they have one ofthe best trade organizations,
in my opinion, in all yeah yeahmokan, um.
So it's been a really, reallygreat state and so far it's it's
also been been financially agreat state for us as well.
Ben Larson (32:11):
That's cool.
We had Seth Yakutan on the showa few weeks back and he was
saying that Missouri was thebellwether for sentiment this
year.
How things went in Missouri wasa signal of how things were
going to go.
So a big consideration inentering new states, or just
operating in states, is thepresence of, or lack thereof of,
(32:32):
MSOs.
And, as an independent brandthat is multi-state operating,
how do you think about MSOs?
Are they partners?
Are they the enemy?
You can plead the fifth, it'sup to you.
Kate Miller (32:44):
No, I'll touch on it and I would say some MSOs are
even our supply chain partners,not all not in every state.
We work with some independents,we work with some MSOs, but I
would say we have greatrelationships on the retail side
with MSOs.
And further, I would say listen, I understand why there is a
(33:05):
strong narrative in this spaceagainst MSOs and against what
MSOs, like big cannabis, standsfor, which, um, you know, I
think we've seen in a lot ofcases that can mean an
inequitable industry, like notsupporting those who have been
building this market long beforeit was legal, um, people who
(33:29):
are, like you know, trying toshape regulations in a way that
is super self-serving and notgreater for the larger space and
the larger consumer.
So, all that being said, Iunderstand and I can very much
rally behind that message.
However, I would also say thatit's not the case for everyone.
(33:51):
Additionally, there's been alot of people that are working
at MSOs that, like, have justsuch a strong connection and
passion to this plant that, like, we can't like.
In my opinion, I see an MSO aslike it's people, not not like
the whole thing.
And then, further, I would sayit's been a great partnership
(34:14):
for us and I'm going to be supertransparent that we wouldn't be
where we are today without someof our MSO partners, or I
should say we would have had toraise a lot more capital than to
get to where we are todaywithout some of our MSOs
partners who had a stronger atthe time, like you know, more
(34:36):
money to essentially front allof the working capital for us to
enter and scale into thesemarkets.
So I do feel like the likecoming together of the
independents and MSOs and,granted, the market has changed
a lot, and I think there's a lotabout the MSO business model
(34:57):
today, with where their balancesheets sit and where the debt
maturity of everything coming up, that is really scary, up, that
is really scary.
But I do think, without thethis is not the right word like,
not to like, take advantage ofthem.
But I think there's a way thateveryone kind of like, yeah,
(35:18):
like, leverage other people'sresources to continue to grow as
an independent brand and it'smutually beneficial because what
MSOs do not have I know some ofthem would not say this, but
like they're not brand builders,like they just are not.
Ben Larson (35:37):
Some of them need to be told a little bit more
emphatically.
Kate Miller (35:42):
Um.
So I think that at least for us, like it has some of the
relationships has definitelyfelt mutually beneficial.
Ben Larson (35:52):
Have you ever considered a career in politics?
Because that was a verydiplomatic answer that you gave
no, thank you.
AnnaRae Grabstein (36:01):
All right, Well, speaking of markets and
you mentioned it a little bitearlier.
Ben Larson (36:04):
Speaking of markets and you mentioned it a little
bit earlier you know the hempmarketplace where you started
has evolved over time and it's aburgeoning hemp market that
seems quite similar to cannabisand how have you been thinking
about that, anything you'rewilling to share about what
you're thinking about that.
(36:25):
It's just an interesting fullcircle having launched a hemp
marketplace, now operating inmulti-state regulated cannabis,
and then a lot of stuffhappening back where you started
.
Kate Miller (36:37):
I think what's happening on the hemp side is
the most exciting thing that'sbeen happening in cannabis for
years, and obviously everyonehas different plays and I
understand why some operatorswho have invested a ton in state
licensed operations arestruggling to accept what's
(36:59):
happening.
Everyone in cannabis right nowshould be thinking of this plant
as the same plant across these,and there's just two.
There's just like, differentdistribution plant channels.
So as a brand, it is such anexciting thing that's happening
(37:20):
to finally be able to build anomni-channel brand and provide
much further and wider access tothis plant and our products to
a nationwide and hopefully likeglobal community.
So, yeah, I mean I see it assuper exciting.
I think the one thing I wouldencourage us all is I'm sure you
(37:44):
see this, but there just seemsto be like quite the divide
right now between the two thestate licensed and the hemp side
and I think I think we all needto kind of see that as an
opportunity to come together andlike push reform and regulation
around this plant holisticallyforward and not this divide
(38:10):
that's happening right now Ithink the police are coming for
you.
Ben Larson (38:13):
They're, they're here, no, I, I, I totally get it
.
I, you know I'm a big uh, I,I'm a big proponent for not
suffering the sunk cost fallacywhere you know it's like it is
one plant and we have beengifted this opportunity to kind
(38:34):
of reassess the game board andhow do we create as much
progress as quickly as possibleand get cannabinoids into the
hands of the people?
So I'm fully on it with you.
I want to poke a little bitback at our friends the msls,
because what I do see sometimesis lobbying and and parroting
(38:57):
that hemp is killing thecannabis industry at the same
time as like those same brandslaunching like their hemp
initiatives.
And I just think it's reallyand really interesting
transparent hedge.
Kate Miller (39:11):
But yeah, and I totally understand why an MSO
would be freaking.
I'm not a curse on thisplatform, freaking out.
Ben Larson (39:20):
You can do whatever you want on this show Freaking
out.
Kate Miller (39:24):
I mean their whole business model and their moat
was owning dispensaries, whichis the only place that consumers
could get access to this plant.
Now, all of a sudden, you canorder off of websites.
You can go into traditionalretail channels.
Their whole business model is alittle bit.
(39:48):
I understand why MSOs arefreaking out.
I don't think it's right whatthey're doing and like this is
what's happening.
So kind of like.
Ben Larson (39:56):
So Anna Rae and I were talking about this
yesterday before she was sick,and I don't want to steal her
thunder.
I think we should probably havea whole episode on this.
But instead of launching brandsand trying to compete as brands
as you and I identified, theyaren't necessarily great at why
not go omni-channel with theretail environment that they do
(40:16):
seem to excel at?
And so what I haven't seen, youknow, are these branded hemp
stores, you know, likemulti-state, and so it's like
florida would be.
Florida would be a greatopportunity for someone like
trulieve to kind of try thisomni-channel approach and like
have both marketplaces.
I don't know, maybe it's aterrible idea.
Kate Miller (40:37):
I'm not a retail owner, um well, I'd say, without
calling out who it is, but thatexact state and an mso is doing
exactly that.
So I think, we'll see more ofthat.
Ben Larson (40:50):
Okay, eric, our producer, I think we have
someone to go after for our nextguest.
We'll talk offline, kate.
Kate Miller (41:00):
Yeah, I can share it with you offline.
Ben Larson (41:02):
Okay, well, we're getting closer to the top of the
hour.
I want to make sure, like thishas been a journey up and down
East Coast to West Coast to EastCoast, hemp to cannabis to hemp
, it's quite the leadershipjourney.
You and I talked about thisdirectly, but also other people
that know you have oftenidentified you as in the weeds
(41:24):
like CEO that you know has herhands on everything, leaves her
mark on everything, and it'svery admirable.
But it's a lot of work and asthe company has grown and scaled
, I'm curious if you're willingto share just the benefits that
you've seen from that hands-onleader, which I find very
(41:45):
valuable, but also maybe some ofthe downsides in how you're
thinking about it today.
Kate Miller (41:50):
Yeah, well, one.
I need to just start off withsaying that we have an
incredible team.
So that is it's not obviouslyjust me.
There's a team around me thatare pushing this forward every
single day.
We are a very, very small teamfor the size of our business and
(42:11):
, frankly, a bit is due to justour business model.
On the state side, it has beenmainly through licensing, where
our margins are super tight, sowe haven't been able to scale
the team in proportion to likewhere our top line sales are
right now, which requires us allto wear like 25 hats a day.
(42:39):
I would say my leadershipjourney has definitely evolved.
I am super, super in the weeds,operational, maybe too much,
but it feels like it'sabsolutely necessary and
required.
One of the things that I'mreally trying to implement this
(42:59):
year is it feels like we havebeen on a sprint in a sprint for
the first seven and a halfyears.
Building Miss Grass and, as youknow, like building a brand and
building a business is amarathon, it's not a sprint, and
I like want to bring the energyof like the marathon race
versus like the like all handson deck fires, sprint nonstop.
Ben Larson (43:25):
It's a marathon, but you're a kenyan runner damn,
when does this change?
Kate Miller (43:34):
I don't have any advice like that's definitely.
I haven't gotten there, but Iwould say that's the intention
for the year I love that.
Ben Larson (43:45):
I love that.
It's certainly something thatI've personally gone through
over the last couple years isjust like how to strike that
balance.
And you mentioned the team.
You know, building the buildingthe team is the key element of
it, right?
Like finding those people thatyou really trust to to be able
to emulate you.
You know, in the trenches, soto speak.
(44:06):
You know in the trenches, so tospeak, we were, we were talking
, uh, before the show started,and talking about our early
morning workout routine, and Ithink for me, that's been a big
part.
It's like finding those thingsthat you need to prioritize in
your life that do actually takeyou away from work in a physical
sense, right, um, but actuallydo benefit the work in those
(44:29):
times that you're stepping awayto take care of yourself or, you
know, focus on larger things.
You know that needs that timedoes get backfilled by your team
.
So I think the naturalprogression is set and the
intention is going to lead youin the right direction.
Kate Miller (44:42):
I hope so.
Yeah, it's like one of thosethings you like know all the
steps you need to take but it'shard to sometimes do it.
Ben Larson (44:56):
But, um, yeah, yeah, I'm excited this year.
Yeah, at the beginning, at thebeginning of the year, we were
having our our kind of likekickoff episode and you know, I
was denouncing new year'sresolutions because I just no
one ever sticks to them, right?
It's like, oh, I'm gonna dothis every day or I'm gonna do
this every week, and then likeit like it's February and the
gym's empty.
But the best way to accomplishit is like to set that goal,
like that big, hairy, audaciousgoal for you at the end of the
year and just especially as anentrepreneur.
(45:17):
You know a lot of us are goaloriented.
So it's like you know you wantto achieve that in the year.
So it's just that, thatpersistent thought going towards
, like how do I get there?
And like what are the thingsthat need to be put in place?
So it's like maybe I don't doit every day, maybe I don't do
it every week, but as long asI'm working towards that goal,
(45:40):
I'm confident that you will getthere.
So good luck on that journey.
I really appreciate all theknowledge allowing me to pry.
I was rapid fire questions.
I didn't have Anna Rae tointerject or say that you were
asking too many questions.
So that was nice.
Love you anyway, just kidding.
But now is your time and it'sour last call, and I want you to
take this opportunity to,whether it's a shout out, a call
to action or just a plug forsomething that you love,
(46:03):
cannabis or otherwise.
Kate miller, what is your lastcall?
Kate Miller (46:07):
I got to plug Miss Grass, obviously.
So please follow us, sign up toour email and I would just say
there's so much happening inthis overall space and there's
the hemp side, there's the stateside.
There doesn't feel like there'sgoing to be much movement on
the federal side for the stateside and I just I encourage us
(46:28):
all to like come together as anindustry and like protect the
soul of this industry.
Like cannabis is way more thana product, it is a movement, it
is a culture and, as this marketcontinues to mature, I think
that we can build incrediblebusinesses while also continuing
(46:49):
to like move that mission andessence forward which has been
there from the very beginning.
Ben Larson (46:58):
Amazing, amazing, all right Kate.
Kate Miller (47:02):
Thanks for having me on Ben.
Ben Larson (47:04):
Oh, my God, this has been so great.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your busy week.
I hope you take some time toyourself as we approach the end
of the week and this weekend,but until next time really
appreciate you.
Thank you for sharing so muchwith us.
Kate Miller (47:18):
Thank you, Ben.
Ben Larson (47:20):
All right, I'll talk to you soon.
All right, everybody, what doyou think she is?
A wealth of knowledge?
We're so lucky that she justopened it up.
She gave you.
Think she has a wealth ofknowledge?
We're so lucky that she justopened it up.
She gave you the playbook, soyou have no excuses.
Go out, build community, buildyour brand, go multi-state, go
hemp, go cannabis it's all oneplant and share the love.
(47:40):
All right, this has been another, another exciting episode, if I
do say this so myself of highspirits.
Anna Rae, we miss you.
Come save me, please.
I can't wait to catch up on thenews with you next week.
Folks, don't forget to like,subscribe, share, do all the
things.
We appreciate your support.
(48:01):
Please, seriously, if you'restill listening, stop pause rate
review.
It really helps, but ouraudience is growing and we're
excited about bringing morethings to you, online, offline,
all the places.
Huge shout out to our producer,eric Rossetti, our teams at
Virtosa and Wolfmeyer, oursponsor, kitprint.
(48:24):
Without you guys, we couldn'tbe doing this any of this every
week.
Without you, guys, we couldn'tbe doing this any of this every
week.
As always, folks, stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high Until next time.
That's the show.
We want to give a quick shout out to our
friends and sponsor over atKitPrint, the cannabis operators
production design partner.
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packaging layouts and productrenders?
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(00:28):
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To learn more, go to kitprintcoto book a call with their team.
Ben Larson (00:53):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 77.
77.
That's a big number Of highspirits.
I'm Ben Larson, and today I ambut a ship without its rudder.
(01:18):
Anna Rae no, anna Rae is notwith me today.
She is sick.
Anna, we are recording onThursday, february 27, 2025.
And we do have a great show foryou, albeit without my co-host,
and I think I'm probably goingto jump right in today.
Nra usually covers the news.
(01:39):
I merely provide colorcommentary.
Next week, we have the CannabisBusiness News Roundup, so
please tune in for that.
But being that we'll skip thenews, I'm going to get right
into my intro for our amazingguest.
Today we have Kate Miller, theCEO and co-founder of Miss Grass
, and we're going to go throughher journey, her personal
(02:00):
journey from the East Coast tothe West Coast and back to the
East Coast, and similarly, herjourney with Ms Grass, who
started in hemp, went toregulated cannabis and may or
may not be finding its way backin hemp.
So, without further ado, let meintroduce to you Kate Miller.
Kate, welcome to the show.
Kate Miller (02:21):
Hey Ben, Thanks for having me.
Ben Larson (02:23):
Yeah, it's so good to see you.
How is everything out there onthe East Coast?
Kate Miller (02:27):
Cold, but excellent .
Otherwise how about you?
Ben Larson (02:30):
Oh, cold, not cold.
West Coast is beautiful.
We are wondering if this isreal spring or fake spring, but
I think the Bay Area isexpecting sunshine and 70
degrees today.
Kate Miller (02:44):
That's so nice.
Oh well, I miss Anna Rae.
Anna Rae, if you're watchinghopefully you're not and resting
, but I hope you feel better.
Ben Larson (02:51):
She better be watching.
We need the numbers, All right?
Well, let's jump right in Forour listeners who don't know,
just give us a little bit of anoverview of what Miss Grass is
and you know I gave a little bitof an introduction, I guess,
about how you started in hemp,so maybe explain how the
(03:14):
marketplace has evolved into thebrand that is Miss Grass.
Kate Miller (03:19):
Yeah.
So Miss Grass is a brand reallyrooted in community in the
cannabis space.
We launched in January of 2018,so basically seven years ago a
little bit over and we have beenpretty relentlessly obsessed
with our community.
So we started off as an e-commarketplace.
(03:43):
Technically, the business modelwas a contextual commerce
platform where we had a hempmarketplace selling all
third-party hemp-derivedcannabinoid and cannabis
accessory brands and an onlinemagazine where we really
leveraged content and events tonot only bring people into our
online site and convert themthrough our marketplace into our
(04:06):
online site and convert themthrough our marketplace, but
really the intention of that wasto scale a nationwide community
, collect a ton of first partydata and like truly
understanding who our communityis, what they're consuming, why
they're consuming it, whenthey're consuming it, and using
all of that to ultimately informwhat became our first product,
which was roughly two yearspost-launching the brand.
In September of 2020, welaunched Miss Grass Minis mini
(04:29):
packs of pre-rolled joints andhave since expanded flower and
pre-roll in the flower andpre-roll category in the state
regulated channels, so arecurrently operational in seven
markets.
Ben Larson (04:42):
Wow, all right.
Well, there's a lot there.
We're going to dig into all ofthat, and so I'm going to kind
of rewind us back to thebeginning and to 2018, launching
a hemp marketplace.
Give us a little bit of an ideaof what the landscape looked
like back then.
Back then, I'm talking about asif it was decades ago.
(05:02):
But hey, in the cannabis andhemp industry, it is like
decades ago.
Kate Miller (05:05):
Yeah, it feels, that way.
Ben Larson (05:07):
Yeah, what was the landscape like?
How competitive was it?
Was it new to kind of build abranded marketplace?
I guess?
Kate Miller (05:15):
Yeah, well, one.
I think our approach tobuilding brand was new for the
space, not new for CPG was newfor the space, not new for CPG,
but the approach of building andscaling community first, before
launching product.
We didn't see that yet in thecannabis space.
We saw a lot of brandslaunching product and then
(05:37):
turning their attention to focuson building a community and
brand loyalty around thatproduct.
And, as you know, since thismarket is very, this industry is
very you know, each state isits own market it becomes really
challenging to, once you startentering on the product side, to
really focus on building anational and global brand
(06:00):
presence and community.
So that's why we entered theway that we did.
At that time, the 2018 Farm Billhad just passed.
January of 2018 also was themonth that California flipped
and had its first adult use saleof cannabis.
So I would say right place,right time.
(06:22):
I know people have differingopinions on what luck is, but I
would say we got lucky that welaunched at that moment.
Unfortunately, I would say itwas also kind of the height of
the Me Too movement, which, asfemale founders, we also
benefited from that.
So there was a lot of kind offactors that at that time we got
(06:48):
a ton of press which drove alot of early traction and
community to our site whichconverted for us.
Also at that time there were youknow it was the CBD craze.
Was was happening and therewere a lot of brands launching
CBD products.
However, there wasn't a lot ofinventory while still getting
(07:26):
really healthy margins for adropship business, which is what
it was early days.
It evolved as the business grewand we did start holding
inventory but ultimately wesunsetted that marketplace and I
should say now, looking back, Icould have been selling Delta 9
, thc, m-derived products thatwhole time.
I didn't realize that then, butnow we sunsetted that when we
(07:51):
launched our product At thattime we were still such a small
team and we weren't seeing asmany synergies from having both
the marketplace and focusing ongrowing and scaling B2B sales
with our products intodispensaries like to use.
Ben Larson (08:27):
What does community mean to you and how did you
build community around thisplatform, around the products?
Because I think it's animportant strategy for brands to
understand, especially whenthey're limited on capital.
Because, with the beveragecategory that is exploding right
now, there's arguably hundredsof brands hitting the market,
and the big question is Nowthere's arguably hundreds of
brands hitting the market andthe big question is who's
(08:50):
building a long-lasting brand, abrand that will persist over
time and without bucket loads ofcash, it's really hard to build
that kind of ubiquitous brand,and so a way to kind of get
around that is to build acommunity, and I'm curious, like
some of the things that you didwith Miss Grass, to be able to
do that.
Kate Miller (09:06):
Yeah.
So one like I think we also inthis industry not only throw the
term community around a lot,not just in our industry but
other CPG and other industries,but also even the word brand,
I've noticed in this space kindof means something different to
operators and I've heard a lot,oh, they have a beautiful brand.
And this space kind of meanssomething different to operators
and I've heard a lot, oh, theyhave a beautiful brand.
(09:28):
And when you kind of doubleclick into what someone means by
that, they're talking aboutbranding, like they're talking
about the visual identity of abrand and that's one element of
it and an important element.
Don't get me wrong.
But you know that's not just itfor us, and when I say and when
(09:49):
we've always believed that, likebrand equity will drive long
term value in this industry, asit does in any CPG space, like
it goes far beyond just thevisual identity world of the
brand For us, like we reallymeasured that a lot by our
community size, email being aplatform that we were really
(10:14):
focused on, especially earlydays and still today, like there
were so many restrictions onwhat we could do on social
channels and different platforms, and email felt like this
channel that we can like let ourhair down and like say what we
want and connect directly withour community.
Ben Larson (10:33):
So for us that has been a really important
community channel for us from,for us from day one, email I
just wanted to highlight thatbecause, like, email is like the
oldest of quote unquotecommunities for these channels
and probably one that we'reneglecting a bit, and so, yeah,
dig into that a little bit.
Kate Miller (10:54):
It's been a really important channel and of course
in the DDC world is a reallyimportant conversion channel.
Now we don't see as muchconversion on our email, or at
least direct conversion, becausewe don't have, you know, it's
not connected to POS atdispensary so we actually don't
have that data.
But as we do launch our D2Cagain, that'll become a really
(11:17):
important channel for us.
But going back to your questionon kind of like what we did at
the beginning and what we stilldo, early days our site was a
was a big community converter tous, meaning like people would
go to our site, there would beemail pop ups, there was like
(11:46):
age gated content that we had onour site to garner and capture
someone's email and put themthrough our email flows and our
journeys and our email journeyto kind of connect further with
our community.
We've done probably close to100 events in the lifetime of
Miss Grass with over 20,000people attending our events.
Obviously the RSVPs you captureemail that way and by RSVPing
(12:10):
they're opting in to receivemarketing communication from us.
That also was a big driver forus in scaling our community list
.
Ben Larson (12:20):
Okay, all right, and now we're going to kind of
transition to that sunsettingmoment where you've observed the
marketplace, you've decided tolaunch your own branded products
, but you weren't going tolaunch it on your own site, nor
were you going to launch it inhemp, so you decided to launch
many pre-rolls in the regulatedmarket.
(12:40):
What drove that jump Like?
You're collecting all this data, you're building this community
.
Kate Miller (12:49):
What told you like, this was the product and this
was the channel Our communitytold us.
So I would say, like, from thevery beginning, that was always
the play of like launch, collecta ton of data, including
purchasing data, which we hadfrom understanding what our
community was buying fromthird-party brands at that time,
but essentially use that toinform what would become a Miss
Grass product line.
(13:10):
So that was always the play,I'd say.
If you looked at our firstinvestor deck, that whole
journey was going to take sixmonths and that journey took two
years.
So maybe the timelines weren'texactly planned out, but the
journey was.
And Again, the beauty of havingthat first-person relationship
(13:32):
with our community and ourcustomer base was we really used
that to inform what became theMistgrass Minis and our other
product offerings.
Now, to give you an example,when we were developing our
first product, we put out a, asurvey to our community.
(13:53):
Overnight, 7500 people of fromour list replied it was a pretty
like detailed survey wasn'tjust a like that's a great
return.
Ben Larson (14:04):
We've done surveys before.
Kate Miller (14:05):
They don't come back in those quantities there
was, of course, incentivesaround like filling in the
survey and you, you know,getting them in.
But yes, like and that's whatthe beauty to of this community,
it's like a true, authenticconnection with the brand and
the lifestyle and what we allrepresent.
Like it's a two way community.
It's not just this brand, likepushing out marketing you know
(14:31):
jargon and 20 percent off emailsto them, it's, it's truly
adding value.
But going back to that survey,like we asked a lot of questions
in that survey, including, liketheir form factor preference.
The minis, for instance, wasinformed by that survey.
We, we, a lot of our communitymembers mentioned that they
(14:53):
don't get through a full onegram joint in one sitting.
So that, ultimately, is whatinformed the point four.
It also informed we asked a lotabout occasion, like when they
were consuming what, and thathelped inform the terpene
profiles that we look for, whichultimately elicit the effect
(15:15):
that our community wanted forour fast times, quiet times and
all times products.
Ben Larson (15:21):
Wow, I love that customer and having direct
access to their purchasingpatterns and all this kind of
stuff too.
It's still being the samecustomer, same community and
having connection to them, butlosing a little bit of or a lot
(15:41):
bit of, the visibility of thepurchasing and the sell-through
because of everything that we'vediscussed on the show about the
challenges of dealing with theregulated market and retail.
How did you overcome that?
What were some of the tools ortactics that you've used, or
probably continue to use, tocreate that bridge and really
(16:03):
leverage the connection to thecommunity that you have?
Kate Miller (16:06):
Yeah.
So you know we still engagewith our owned community
channels social site and emailjust like we did.
There's less, you know,conversion focused emails
driving people to our D2C sitenow, but there still are.
You know, for about 80% of ouremail lists we have zip codes.
(16:31):
So, to give you an example, nowwe'll work with our retail
partners.
We'll essentially align withthem on a sales strategy and
partnership that includes apromotional calendar and
programming for the next quarterNot everyone's program out a
quarter in advance, but let'sjust say the ones are and then,
(16:52):
on larger occasions, we'llactually use our email list and
segment around their doors topush out on our channel some of
the promotions and partnershipsthat we're running with the
retailers.
Unfortunately, though, we don'thave then the true conversion
data from that, but a lot of ittoo, is optically.
(17:13):
Our retail partners are superjazzed that we're able to
directly communicate with theMiss Grass community and drive
them to their doors.
It's gone a long way for us.
Further, we right now programout, kind of like every other
month, brand-led campaigns thatthen have extensions into retail
(17:37):
.
So, to give you a in real timeexample, we have a Women's Month
campaign for all of March thatreally centers on like
celebrating the femininity ofthis plant being a female plant,
and celebrating the woman incannabis.
That includes a whole host ofassets that we provide to our
retail partners, including, likeone of our email segments is
(18:00):
are just straight going tobuyers and marketing marketing
execs in retail doors so that we, instead of our sales manager
needing to email every singledoor, we'll, through our email
segment, blast out thesecampaigns and the campaign
assets, including like the 20%off or if it is tied to a
promotion, directly to theirinboxes so that they, on a
(18:24):
regular basis, are getting likebranded assets from Miss Grass
that they can very easily pluginto like their own channels
digital menu, banners, email,sms.
And then we also program thatthose messaging it's not promo
led but a similar thematicmessaging on our brand channel,
(18:45):
so that there is this kind oflike holistic campaign and
interactions with our communityacross every single brand
touchpoint, across everyretailer that carries miss grass
.
Ben Larson (18:55):
Not everyone participates in them, but for
the most part, retailers oursocial site and email I'm
curious uh, you know somethingthat we talk about internally a
lot is just creating the linkageto the customer through the
packaging, like finding ways toencourage them to like
quote-unquote, click through.
You know whether it's a qr codeor url.
(19:17):
Have you, have you tried any ofthese tactics, like whether
it's like your, your own, likedesign or a third party, because
I've seen people that you knowapply stickers, that kind of
thing.
Does any of it work?
Have you had any success withthat?
Kate Miller (19:31):
I.
I don't want to throw out thehat and say like no, but we need
to figure that out.
I do think there's a bigopportunity there, like when I
think of how many minis we soldlast year, and even if we can
convert five, two to 5% of thosemini purchases into emails and
(19:56):
not only is that like acommunity member, that's a true,
like customer email that we arecapturing Like that would be
amazing.
We did do things like our miniscome in exterior CR bags and
we've put inserts into that CRbag, including a QR code for
people and like a CTA for peopleto sign up to our email.
(20:17):
We just didn't see conversionfrom that.
However, I think we couldprobably test it out with like a
stronger CTA or incentive orthings like that.
Similarly, we have retaildisplays, like these table tents
that we put up in retail doors,those that allow us that has a
QR code to sign up for our email.
(20:38):
But, same thing, we haven'tseen a ton of conversion from
that.
Ben Larson (20:42):
I was interested in as a result of the pandemic was
the normalization of QR codes.
I was very like anti QR code.
I even had some ideas likecrazy entrepreneurial ideas in
the past that popped in my headabout oh, it's like we could put
(21:04):
QR codes in art galleries andpeople could use them and then,
like you know, really understandthe whole, like history of that
art piece and the artist.
Anyways, I'm rambling.
Kate Miller (21:13):
That's, I'm sure, happening now in our gallery.
Ben Larson (21:16):
I'm sure I'm sure, it's totally a thing.
I totally missed that.
It's okay, I'm happy with whatI'm doing.
But yeah, I was like I wasthinking that maybe this would
be the catalyst for it workingon projects on products, right,
and, and I just don't think it.
Kate Miller (21:31):
It it has translated like people using it
for menus at restaurant hasn'ttranslated to people opting to
do it products I think the nextthing we want to test out is, um
, like using that to onboardthem to a loyalty program.
And there's a brand, um, blackBuffalo.
(21:53):
It's not a cannabis brand.
They sell, um, they're in thetobacco space or alternative
tobacco space.
Um, and they, um, they, I thinkthey this is powered by Yopo,
but it they consumers whopurchase their uh tins in, let's
say, a seven 11.
On the packaging itself there'sa call to action of like scan
(22:16):
your receipt or something andreceive $5 back.
So customers and they get greatconversion from this.
To my understanding, Customersscan, they upload their receipt.
There's a platform that allhandles this.
That customer gets $5 back andthen also, is then like, kind of
subscribe to a loyalty programwhere, like, you can actually
(22:37):
start earning rewards, which isobviously a lot easier on a DTC
platform, but start earningrewards for buying per, for
buying product in retail, and,to my understanding, they've
seen a good amount of conversionfrom that.
Ben Larson (22:54):
Oh, that's great, that's great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:56):
Okay.
Kate Miller (22:57):
Everyone loves to get money back, yeah.
Ben Larson (23:02):
As a geek I just told it's like trying to break
this code is such an interestingchallenge.
Okay, I want to get a littlebit more into just kind of how
the business has has scaled.
You know, obviously you startedin a single state, you started
in California, right?
Kate Miller (23:18):
Correct.
Ben Larson (23:19):
Okay, so that was your first state.
You're now in seven, which is alot.
Tell us a little bit about thesecond state and so on, and how
you strategically chose, like,where you were going to go next,
because every market seems verydifferent.
And the next set of questions Ican ask you is about, like, how
you build partnerships and thesophistication of each
(23:40):
individual supply chain, becausethat's something that's near
and dear to my heart.
But, yeah, like, how did youchoose that second state and
then so on and so forth.
Kate Miller (23:49):
After that, Well, I would say the second state was
chosen, not in the way that wechoose states now, but the
second state was definitely abig learning for us.
We entered Nevada as our secondstate, which was the only state
that we pulled out of.
So that is probably telling.
(24:10):
But ultimately we chose itbased on a relationship that I
had with an operator who was inthe California market, who went
to the Nevada market and it wasa big operator and the deal made
sense where it was a zeroworking capital deal for us,
where the operator would buy ourpackaging, they cultivate,
manufacture and distribute andwe get a royalty on gross
(24:32):
wholesale.
They cultivate, manufacture anddistribute and we get a royalty
on gross wholesale.
So you know a lot of learnings.
With all new things, Idefinitely have a kind of like
stricter due diligence,including like what's the
financial stability of oursupply chain?
Ben Larson (24:46):
partners.
That's really tough in thisindustry.
Kate Miller (24:48):
It's tough but so important to understand that
because ultimately it was anexpensive lesson and bad debt
write off on our booksUltimately how do you find that
Like what are?
Ben Larson (25:03):
do you just ask directly and whether you know
how transparent they're willingto be?
Is that your tell, or is therelike a more nuanced way of going
about it?
Kate Miller (25:18):
I think like that is definitely one of the
questions.
But also similar to when you'revetting talent to for your team
and you go through referencechecks, like similar to that.
And as you know, unfortunatelyor fortunately, I don't know how
I how I view it but likethere's a small group of
cannabis investors who have likefunded a lot of these operators
.
So at this point we kind of areable to ask the right people to
(25:43):
like really know the whatthey're like balance sheets and
I like cash and things like thatand certain investors are more
trustworthy than other investors.
For sure.
So so, yeah, that that was alesson, though did like we were
in the Nevada market for for abit, so we did gain the like
(26:07):
internal muscle on reallyidentifying and refining our
state expansion playbook andlike our what is go to market
look like, as well as like whatdoes launch look like the first
three months in a market weconsider launch and then what
does um it look like after that,which I think the strategies of
(26:27):
having a successful launch andthe strategies to retain and
grow the business post thelaunch hype is over has evolved
for us and is a bit different.
But as it relates to like how wechoose states, we have I call
it we internally it's labeledthe state matrix, but in that
state matrix there's like everystate listed in a column where
(26:52):
the state is, from a regulatoryperspective, au medical it's
expected to flip next year,whatever it may be, the market
size, the number of dispensaries, the population of 21 plus
which breaks out to the likenumber of people per dispensary,
and then also the growth rateof the past year, like is it a
(27:15):
market that isn't growing?
Is it actually declining?
Is it still like super highgrowth, which is typically when
it's like just turning on, andthen below that we have kind of
like the key operators in saidstates.
There's obviously some stateswhere if you can talk to like
five buyers and be in like 70%of the market, and then there's
(27:38):
other states, based on the stateregulations that you know, cap
the number of doors.
So there's like hundreds ofoperators to get to the like 70,
80% of the market andultimately we look at a like
where do we already have a builtin community base that, like
from day one, we can activateand be successful?
because you have codes ExactlyNice and then be marked that
(28:05):
market data that I was talkingabout we tend to prioritize low
to zero working capital statesthat we can structure deals with
operators who are financiallystable, have high quality
product brand alignment as well,as we look at markets that we
feel confident we can get intoand get into roughly like 70 to
(28:27):
75% upwards of the doors Mm-hmm.
Ben Larson (28:32):
How do you think about timing of these markets
After seeing cycle after cycle,right?
You mentioned kind of theexuberance period.
Do all the other elements thatyou just described kind of
outweigh that and then you justunderstand that that is the
potentiality of that givenmarket?
Or do you try to avoid certaintiming when it comes to the
(28:55):
newness of a market?
Or is first mover advantage athing?
Kate Miller (29:00):
Yes, it is, I would say, which I wouldn't say
that's the case for.
We haven't seen that play outwith some operators, but as a
brand play, we have definitelyseen the advantage of getting in
some of these market early andcapturing market share and being
able to maintain that marketshare.
If you look in Californiaprobably the most saturated
(29:23):
market that there is and youlook at the BDS, top 10 brands
like many on that list are thebrands that were on shelves
January 2018 when Californiaflipped, and they were top then
and they're still top now.
So I do think there's anadvantage.
Also, when markets just turn on,there tends to be and this
(29:44):
isn't the case for every market,but there tends to be a supply
shortage.
So there's just like not a tonof flour, not a ton of brands,
not a ton of you know thingsthat retailers can purchase.
So I don't want to say it'slike easier, but the
(30:05):
conversation is a lot easier tostructure partnerships then than
it is when these then, whereMichigan is right now, or even
where California is, where, hey,like, I'm selling you a
pre-roll, but there's also 5000cheaper pre-rolls on the market,
which there are definitelyretailers who do do that and
(30:28):
aren't just price shopping.
It's just a harder sell asthese markets are becoming super
, super saturated.
Ben Larson (30:36):
What are some of the states, or the state that has
you most excited right now, thatyou're either currently in or
planning to enter?
Kate Miller (30:45):
So I'd say two.
I am a Jersey girl, so want toposition that first and we have
been in the New Jersey marketfor a bit, evolved a lot even in
the past couple months.
It has.
(31:11):
A lot more retailers have comeonline.
We're just starting to see someof the more independent
cultivators coming online, whichhas been great, but that
continues to be a really goodmarket for us and one that you
know we've.
We have a lot of market sharein the pre-roll category there
and, um, our brand reallyresonates with our community and
(31:32):
consumers.
And then the second state I'dI'd call out is our newest state
, um, missouri, which we justlaunched at the beginning of
this market this year, and ithas one like the.
The cannabis market there hasbeen like so welcoming and
(31:52):
incredible, and they have one ofthe best trade organizations,
in my opinion, in all yeah yeahmokan, um.
So it's been a really, reallygreat state and so far it's it's
also been been financially agreat state for us as well.
Ben Larson (32:11):
That's cool.
We had Seth Yakutan on the showa few weeks back and he was
saying that Missouri was thebellwether for sentiment this
year.
How things went in Missouri wasa signal of how things were
going to go.
So a big consideration inentering new states, or just
operating in states, is thepresence of, or lack thereof of,
(32:32):
MSOs.
And, as an independent brandthat is multi-state operating,
how do you think about MSOs?
Are they partners?
Are they the enemy?
You can plead the fifth, it'sup to you.
Kate Miller (32:44):
No, I'll touch on it and I would say some MSOs are
even our supply chain partners,not all not in every state.
We work with some independents,we work with some MSOs, but I
would say we have greatrelationships on the retail side
with MSOs.
And further, I would say listen, I understand why there is a
(33:05):
strong narrative in this spaceagainst MSOs and against what
MSOs, like big cannabis, standsfor, which, um, you know, I
think we've seen in a lot ofcases that can mean an
inequitable industry, like notsupporting those who have been
building this market long beforeit was legal, um, people who
(33:29):
are, like you know, trying toshape regulations in a way that
is super self-serving and notgreater for the larger space and
the larger consumer.
So, all that being said, Iunderstand and I can very much
rally behind that message.
However, I would also say thatit's not the case for everyone.
(33:51):
Additionally, there's been alot of people that are working
at MSOs that, like, have justsuch a strong connection and
passion to this plant that, like, we can't like.
In my opinion, I see an MSO aslike it's people, not not like
the whole thing.
And then, further, I would sayit's been a great partnership
(34:14):
for us and I'm going to be supertransparent that we wouldn't be
where we are today without someof our MSO partners, or I
should say we would have had toraise a lot more capital than to
get to where we are todaywithout some of our MSOs
partners who had a stronger atthe time, like you know, more
(34:36):
money to essentially front allof the working capital for us to
enter and scale into thesemarkets.
So I do feel like the likecoming together of the
independents and MSOs and,granted, the market has changed
a lot, and I think there's a lotabout the MSO business model
(34:57):
today, with where their balancesheets sit and where the debt
maturity of everything coming up, that is really scary, up, that
is really scary.
But I do think, without thethis is not the right word like,
not to like, take advantage ofthem.
But I think there's a way thateveryone kind of like, yeah,
(35:18):
like, leverage other people'sresources to continue to grow as
an independent brand and it'smutually beneficial because what
MSOs do not have I know some ofthem would not say this, but
like they're not brand builders,like they just are not.
Ben Larson (35:37):
Some of them need to be told a little bit more
emphatically.
Kate Miller (35:42):
Um.
So I think that at least for us, like it has some of the
relationships has definitelyfelt mutually beneficial.
Ben Larson (35:52):
Have you ever considered a career in politics?
Because that was a verydiplomatic answer that you gave
no, thank you.
AnnaRae Grabstein (36:01):
All right, Well, speaking of markets and
you mentioned it a little bitearlier.
Ben Larson (36:04):
Speaking of markets and you mentioned it a little
bit earlier you know the hempmarketplace where you started
has evolved over time and it's aburgeoning hemp market that
seems quite similar to cannabisand how have you been thinking
about that, anything you'rewilling to share about what
you're thinking about that.
(36:25):
It's just an interesting fullcircle having launched a hemp
marketplace, now operating inmulti-state regulated cannabis,
and then a lot of stuffhappening back where you started
.
Kate Miller (36:37):
I think what's happening on the hemp side is
the most exciting thing that'sbeen happening in cannabis for
years, and obviously everyonehas different plays and I
understand why some operatorswho have invested a ton in state
licensed operations arestruggling to accept what's
(36:59):
happening.
Everyone in cannabis right nowshould be thinking of this plant
as the same plant across these,and there's just two.
There's just like, differentdistribution plant channels.
So as a brand, it is such anexciting thing that's happening
(37:20):
to finally be able to build anomni-channel brand and provide
much further and wider access tothis plant and our products to
a nationwide and hopefully likeglobal community.
So, yeah, I mean I see it assuper exciting.
I think the one thing I wouldencourage us all is I'm sure you
(37:44):
see this, but there just seemsto be like quite the divide
right now between the two thestate licensed and the hemp side
and I think I think we all needto kind of see that as an
opportunity to come together andlike push reform and regulation
around this plant holisticallyforward and not this divide
(38:10):
that's happening right now Ithink the police are coming for
you.
Ben Larson (38:13):
They're, they're here, no, I, I, I totally get it
.
I, you know I'm a big uh, I,I'm a big proponent for not
suffering the sunk cost fallacywhere you know it's like it is
one plant and we have beengifted this opportunity to kind
(38:34):
of reassess the game board andhow do we create as much
progress as quickly as possibleand get cannabinoids into the
hands of the people?
So I'm fully on it with you.
I want to poke a little bitback at our friends the msls,
because what I do see sometimesis lobbying and and parroting
(38:57):
that hemp is killing thecannabis industry at the same
time as like those same brandslaunching like their hemp
initiatives.
And I just think it's reallyand really interesting
transparent hedge.
Kate Miller (39:11):
But yeah, and I totally understand why an MSO
would be freaking.
I'm not a curse on thisplatform, freaking out.
Ben Larson (39:20):
You can do whatever you want on this show Freaking
out.
Kate Miller (39:24):
I mean their whole business model and their moat
was owning dispensaries, whichis the only place that consumers
could get access to this plant.
Now, all of a sudden, you canorder off of websites.
You can go into traditionalretail channels.
Their whole business model is alittle bit.
(39:48):
I understand why MSOs arefreaking out.
I don't think it's right whatthey're doing and like this is
what's happening.
So kind of like.
Ben Larson (39:56):
So Anna Rae and I were talking about this
yesterday before she was sick,and I don't want to steal her
thunder.
I think we should probably havea whole episode on this.
But instead of launching brandsand trying to compete as brands
as you and I identified, theyaren't necessarily great at why
not go omni-channel with theretail environment that they do
(40:16):
seem to excel at?
And so what I haven't seen, youknow, are these branded hemp
stores, you know, likemulti-state, and so it's like
florida would be.
Florida would be a greatopportunity for someone like
trulieve to kind of try thisomni-channel approach and like
have both marketplaces.
I don't know, maybe it's aterrible idea.
Kate Miller (40:37):
I'm not a retail owner, um well, I'd say, without
calling out who it is, but thatexact state and an mso is doing
exactly that.
So I think, we'll see more ofthat.
Ben Larson (40:50):
Okay, eric, our producer, I think we have
someone to go after for our nextguest.
We'll talk offline, kate.
Kate Miller (41:00):
Yeah, I can share it with you offline.
Ben Larson (41:02):
Okay, well, we're getting closer to the top of the
hour.
I want to make sure, like thishas been a journey up and down
East Coast to West Coast to EastCoast, hemp to cannabis to hemp
, it's quite the leadershipjourney.
You and I talked about thisdirectly, but also other people
that know you have oftenidentified you as in the weeds
(41:24):
like CEO that you know has herhands on everything, leaves her
mark on everything, and it'svery admirable.
But it's a lot of work and asthe company has grown and scaled
, I'm curious if you're willingto share just the benefits that
you've seen from that hands-onleader, which I find very
(41:45):
valuable, but also maybe some ofthe downsides in how you're
thinking about it today.
Kate Miller (41:50):
Yeah, well, one.
I need to just start off withsaying that we have an
incredible team.
So that is it's not obviouslyjust me.
There's a team around me thatare pushing this forward every
single day.
We are a very, very small teamfor the size of our business and
(42:11):
, frankly, a bit is due to justour business model.
On the state side, it has beenmainly through licensing, where
our margins are super tight, sowe haven't been able to scale
the team in proportion to likewhere our top line sales are
right now, which requires us allto wear like 25 hats a day.
(42:39):
I would say my leadershipjourney has definitely evolved.
I am super, super in the weeds,operational, maybe too much,
but it feels like it'sabsolutely necessary and
required.
One of the things that I'mreally trying to implement this
(42:59):
year is it feels like we havebeen on a sprint in a sprint for
the first seven and a halfyears.
Building Miss Grass and, as youknow, like building a brand and
building a business is amarathon, it's not a sprint, and
I like want to bring the energyof like the marathon race
versus like the like all handson deck fires, sprint nonstop.
Ben Larson (43:25):
It's a marathon, but you're a kenyan runner damn,
when does this change?
Kate Miller (43:34):
I don't have any advice like that's definitely.
I haven't gotten there, but Iwould say that's the intention
for the year I love that.
Ben Larson (43:45):
I love that.
It's certainly something thatI've personally gone through
over the last couple years isjust like how to strike that
balance.
And you mentioned the team.
You know, building the buildingthe team is the key element of
it, right?
Like finding those people thatyou really trust to to be able
to emulate you.
You know, in the trenches, soto speak.
(44:06):
You know in the trenches, so tospeak, we were, we were talking
, uh, before the show started,and talking about our early
morning workout routine, and Ithink for me, that's been a big
part.
It's like finding those thingsthat you need to prioritize in
your life that do actually takeyou away from work in a physical
sense, right, um, but actuallydo benefit the work in those
(44:29):
times that you're stepping awayto take care of yourself or, you
know, focus on larger things.
You know that needs that timedoes get backfilled by your team
.
So I think the naturalprogression is set and the
intention is going to lead youin the right direction.
Kate Miller (44:42):
I hope so.
Yeah, it's like one of thosethings you like know all the
steps you need to take but it'shard to sometimes do it.
Ben Larson (44:56):
But, um, yeah, yeah, I'm excited this year.
Yeah, at the beginning, at thebeginning of the year, we were
having our our kind of likekickoff episode and you know, I
was denouncing new year'sresolutions because I just no
one ever sticks to them, right?
It's like, oh, I'm gonna dothis every day or I'm gonna do
this every week, and then likeit like it's February and the
gym's empty.
But the best way to accomplishit is like to set that goal,
like that big, hairy, audaciousgoal for you at the end of the
year and just especially as anentrepreneur.
(45:17):
You know a lot of us are goaloriented.
So it's like you know you wantto achieve that in the year.
So it's just that, thatpersistent thought going towards
, like how do I get there?
And like what are the thingsthat need to be put in place?
So it's like maybe I don't doit every day, maybe I don't do
it every week, but as long asI'm working towards that goal,
(45:40):
I'm confident that you will getthere.
So good luck on that journey.
I really appreciate all theknowledge allowing me to pry.
I was rapid fire questions.
I didn't have Anna Rae tointerject or say that you were
asking too many questions.
So that was nice.
Love you anyway, just kidding.
But now is your time and it'sour last call, and I want you to
take this opportunity to,whether it's a shout out, a call
to action or just a plug forsomething that you love,
(46:03):
cannabis or otherwise.
Kate miller, what is your lastcall?
Kate Miller (46:07):
I got to plug Miss Grass, obviously.
So please follow us, sign up toour email and I would just say
there's so much happening inthis overall space and there's
the hemp side, there's the stateside.
There doesn't feel like there'sgoing to be much movement on
the federal side for the stateside and I just I encourage us
(46:28):
all to like come together as anindustry and like protect the
soul of this industry.
Like cannabis is way more thana product, it is a movement, it
is a culture and, as this marketcontinues to mature, I think
that we can build incrediblebusinesses while also continuing
(46:49):
to like move that mission andessence forward which has been
there from the very beginning.
Ben Larson (46:58):
Amazing, amazing, all right Kate.
Kate Miller (47:02):
Thanks for having me on Ben.
Ben Larson (47:04):
Oh, my God, this has been so great.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your busy week.
I hope you take some time toyourself as we approach the end
of the week and this weekend,but until next time really
appreciate you.
Thank you for sharing so muchwith us.
Kate Miller (47:18):
Thank you, Ben.
Ben Larson (47:20):
All right, I'll talk to you soon.
All right, everybody, what doyou think she is?
A wealth of knowledge?
We're so lucky that she justopened it up.
She gave you.
Think she has a wealth ofknowledge?
We're so lucky that she justopened it up.
She gave you the playbook, soyou have no excuses.
Go out, build community, buildyour brand, go multi-state, go
hemp, go cannabis it's all oneplant and share the love.
(47:40):
All right, this has been another, another exciting episode, if I
do say this so myself of highspirits.
Anna Rae, we miss you.
Come save me, please.
I can't wait to catch up on thenews with you next week.
Folks, don't forget to like,subscribe, share, do all the
things.
We appreciate your support.
(48:01):
Please, seriously, if you'restill listening, stop pause rate
review.
It really helps, but ouraudience is growing and we're
excited about bringing morethings to you, online, offline,
all the places.
Huge shout out to our producer,eric Rossetti, our teams at
Virtosa and Wolfmeyer, oursponsor, kitprint.
(48:24):
Without you guys, we couldn'tbe doing this any of this every
week.
Without you, guys, we couldn'tbe doing this any of this every
week.
As always, folks, stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high Until next time.
That's the show.
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