#087 - From Hedge Funds to Hash: Inside Cannabis IR with Jesse Redmond

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Jesse Redmond, Head of Investor Relations and Business Development at Leaf Brands, brings his unique perspective as a former Wall Street investor and cannabis dispensary owner to discuss the challenging landscape of public cannabis companies. His insights reveal why certain companies are weathering the storm better than others and how innovative strategies like Bitcoin treasury reserves and strategic farm investments are positioning some for future growth despite industry headwinds.

• Cannabis public markets have experienced a brutal 95% decline since February 2021, creating unprecedented challenges for companies and investors
• Successful cannabis companies focus on operational excellence rather than regulation-dependent growth strategies
• Leaf Brands is developing a 187-acre cannabis farm expected to dramatically reduce production costs from $20-40/lb to approximately $10/lb
• First cannabis company to implement a Bitcoin treasury strategy to strengthen their balance sheet against dollar devaluation
• The high cost of maintaining public company status ($80-100K monthly) is driving some cannabis companies to consider going private
• State-by-state regulatory changes create complex strategic decisions, particularly around hemp/THCA cultivation versus traditional cannabis
• Personal connection to cannabis's medical benefits keeps many professionals committed despite financial challenges
• Investors should be selective rather than taking a "buy the basket" approach, focusing on companies with strong balance sheets and clear growth catalysts

If you enjoyed this episode, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Until next time, stay curious, stay informed, and keep your spirits high.

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Episode Transcript

Ben Larson (00:05):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 87 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and, as always,I'm joined today by Anna Rae
Grabstein, recording ThursdayMay 8th 2025.
We've got a great show for youtoday.
We have Jesse Redmond on fromLeaf Brands.
Many of you know him for hismusings on LinkedIn and X,

(00:27):
formerly known as Twitter.
But before we get there, we'regoing to jump into a little bit
of news.
We're sitting in sunnyCalifornia.
It's 80 degrees today here inWalnut Creek but, most
importantly, governor Newsom isdeclaring success Mission
accomplished on shutting downintoxicating hemp.
Da, da da.
What an idiot, oh my God.

(00:50):
Sorry, I know I'm not supposedto say that online, but press
release came out.
Anyway, I don't know if you sawthis.
It's saying that ABC has beenmarching around the state
shutting down intoxicating hempand they've eliminated 99.7
percent, or something to thattune, of intoxicating hemp in
its locations.
And news flash intoxicatinghemp's not in abc licensed

(01:14):
stores.
Well, it was in the form ofbeverages, but has largely been
removed.
Apparently they're taking someother form factors off the
shelves.
But what about all the smokeshops or sandwich shops or
wherever else they're sellingTHCP gummies?
Sorry, how are you doing?

AnnaRae Grabstein (01:29):
I am doing fine, it's been a long week and,
um, it is beautiful inCalifornia.
So I'm trying to remember thatas, as I deal with all of this
crazy shit that's coming at me.
Yeah, I just I'm a little bitover this Governor Newsom hemp
whole narrative.
I think that there is a paththat isn't about just shutting

(01:52):
everything down and wastingstate resources and like let's
actually figure out a pathforward here.
So, yeah, I think that thebreaking news that ABC is doing
all of this enforcement isfairly unimpressive.
Abc has limited jurisdictionover ABC licensed businesses as
well, so it's really it's a sortof a false announcement in

(02:14):
terms of scope.
To me, it's like, if they'rereally trying to make a
statement, make a statement thatencompasses all of the
different channels.
But yeah, I'm also unimpressed.
In the press release, theylinked a table of how many
visits the ABC has been makingsince October of 2024, which is

(02:36):
anywhere from 200 to 1,000 perweek of visits and that of those
over 11,000 visits week ofvisits and that of those over
11,000 visits enforcement visitsless about 1.2% resulted in
some type of violation or issue.
So it's just is this a good useof state resources?
Could we be focusing onsomething else please?

Ben Larson (02:57):
That is a startling number of resources.
Though, like dealing with theDepartment of Cannabis Control,
dc, dcc, they are severelyunderfunded and it's very hard
for them to get a very smallcannabis industry like under
wraps right.
And I'm seeing these numbersand, and the fact that they're
counting out this, the number ofproducts, like all these visits

(03:19):
resulted in them collecting alittle over 7 000 units.
Like how much money is that perunit that they're seizing?
And how else could that moneybe used?
Like what if we had all thatmoney in the dcc and actually
like supporting an industry andmaking it run effectively?

AnnaRae Grabstein (03:38):
like shutting down the illegal dispensaries
that are unlicensed to bolsterthe legal marketplace in this
state.
That would be great.

Ben Larson (03:47):
Yeah, I don't think this deserves any more of our
attention, no, but it isinteresting to get an
understanding of how manyresources ABC and these alcohol
control boards do have, becauseone of the things that's
happening across the variousstates, be it Texas, alabama,
tennessee is this trend ofputting hemp regulation under

(04:10):
the alcohol control boards.
And we've seen the challengesof spinning up cannabis
regulatory agencies and howthey're pretty much always
cash-strapped and underfunded,largely because the tax
structures of cannabis, and howchallenging it is to actually
generate revenue as a statethrough that.
And and I'm not going toadvocate for putting hemp or

(04:31):
cannabis under abc's control butwhat I will say is like at
least they have funds to clearlydo enforcement, so that
shouldn't be a challenge.
But that does kind of like leadus into what is happening in
some of the other states.
We are are seeing legislationpass.
It's been a very busylegislative session.
We're nearing the end, thankGod.

(04:52):
It's been crazy and so, yeah,there's some movement in a few
different markets.

AnnaRae Grabstein (04:57):
Yeah, especially while we're talking
about alcohol, I thinkPennsylvania is an interesting
one.
Pennsylvania, in their house,passed a adult use measure that
would open retail via state runstores that could be co located
with Pennsylvania's existingstate run alcohol stores.
It's it's created some reallyinteresting conversations that

(05:19):
I've been having on LinkedIn, sogo to my thread if you want to
hear what folks have to say.
But I think one of the thingsthat's really interesting about
this concept well, there's somany, but you know a lot of big
public companies have beeninvesting heavily in
Pennsylvania, thinking thatthey'd be able to transition
their business and now the stateis saying, hey, actually we're

(05:40):
going to become the retailer andyou'll have one single, single
customer producers to tonegotiate pricing with very
interesting.

Ben Larson (05:49):
It's also, I know, like the co-location of alcohol
and cannabis has been a verytouchy subject, especially that
here in california, but it seemsto be persistent and I know I
know it's persisting in in hempand it's been really sensitive
in conversations like alabama,where one day you're you're
defending the the fact that theywere trying to make hemp

(06:09):
intoxicants a schedule one drugagain, which I didn't even know
you could do at a state level.
Maybe you can't, maybe theywere just trying again can you,
you can.

AnnaRae Grabstein (06:17):
It's crazy, some states are on schedules.

Ben Larson (06:20):
Yeah, it's like separate schedule but anyways,
the complete opposite end ofthat.
This week something just gotstreamlined through both the
house incentives now heading tothe governor for signature and
that's basically a legalframework for intoxicating hemp.
Uh, it's pretty restrictive.
They've eliminated direct toconsumer, they've capped, I

(06:40):
think, products at like 10milligrams, especially beverages
, and they're putting it againunder the alcohol beverage
control.
But whoa, what a swing.
It just like came out of leftfield.
I don't know who was behindthat one.

AnnaRae Grabstein (06:52):
Yep Well, and then Texas.
There's been some big hemplegislative shifts in Texas.
Give us a quick yeah.

Ben Larson (07:01):
Yeah yeah, the House basically revised their HB 28,
basically be a revision of SB 3,which is what was put forth by
the Lieutenant Governor andSenator Perry, and so this new
bill is supposed to be acompromise.
But well, it depends who youask.
Oddly enough, it's like givinga lot of lee to to hemp in the

(07:24):
fact that it's offeringbeverages and gummies, it is
eliminating eliminating vape andand synthetic cannabinoids but
it almost feels like it's goingtoo far.
So I'm like just reading intothe politics and seems like
neither of these bills seem tobe tenable to the other side.
So I'm wondering if either onepass and then we just like end
up in the status quo again foranother two years, which isn't

(07:45):
great.
If there's some some hempoperators viewing this show
which there probably are I thinkthey would say that neither of
the bills are tenable.
So there's really like threedifferent factions here, right,
there's the ban it all, there'sthe free, the plant, and then
there's this kind of centristmiddle and I don't think any any
one of those parties agreeswith the other.

(08:06):
So maybe we just get status quoin Texas for another two years.
Who knows?

AnnaRae Grabstein (08:11):
And I don't know if anything has changed
with legislation about theexisting medical marijuana
framework.
Have you seen anything there?
I haven't, I haven't there werepromises that, as hemp was
going to become more restrictive, they would be opening up the
medical program to be moreinclusive and provide more
access and opportunities yeah, Imean that's.

Ben Larson (08:32):
That's what we've all thought was going to happen
over the last six years, buthasn't so.

AnnaRae Grabstein (08:38):
I think it's more hurry up and wait, you know
.

Ben Larson (08:42):
Yeah, well, we've, we've gone over time talking
about like a fire hose.
Let's bring on our guest.

AnnaRae Grabstein (08:49):
Yeah, let's bring on our guest.
Today's guest is someone whosits at the intersection of
being an ex Wall Street savvyinvestor and California cannabis
credibility from operating backin the 215 days.
From operating back in the 2015days, jesse Redman is currently

(09:10):
the head of investor relationsand business development at Leaf
Brands, which is a publiccannabis company focused on
premium extraction, and, jesse,you might recognize him from
being a notable voice oncannabis Twitter.
He also is the host co-host ofHigher Exchange Podcast.
He's our friend.
We are happy to have him hereand to join us today.
Thanks for coming, jesse.

Jesse Redmond (09:31):
Flattering introduction.
Thank you very much for havingme Long-time listener,
first-time guest and shouldstart with a shout out to Hirsch
Jane, because Hirsch Jane wassitting with me at Benzinga in
Chicago last year.
We're scrolling through ourphones showing the podcasts that
we listen to and Hirsch said,oh, do you listen to High
Spirits?
I'm like, oh, that's a new onefor me.
So I started listening to theshow and then I met Anna at

(09:53):
another Benzinga conference Ithink it was in Anaheim last
fall.
So shout out to Hirsch and Iguess, shout out to Benzinga as
well, because there is a lot ofvalue that comes out of those
things, including an opportunityto be here today Amazing.

AnnaRae Grabstein (10:06):
We love Hirsch.
Hirsch has been on this showtwice and we only have ever had
two people that have beenreturning guests, so it's an
important distinction.

Jesse Redmond (10:17):
Yeah, I kind of think about it like building a
menu in cannabis, like back whenI read a collective.
You could put anything on themenu once with a good picture
and a good description andpeople would buy it.
But it would actually have tobe really good to come back to
be on the menu twice and thenonly a few things came back
three times.
And going back to the podcastthing on our podcast, higher
Exchangers, I think Hirsch hasbeen on three or four times.
So yeah, fantastic guy andfantastic podcast guest as well.

Ben Larson (10:41):
Hirsch, you're the cheesy gordita.
Crunch of high spirits.
Is that a good thing?
It's my favorite taco bell menuitem.

Jesse Redmond (10:52):
My teen daughter just got obsessed with taco bell
out of nowhere, so I'm gettingmore versed in that menu as well
.

AnnaRae Grabstein (10:58):
Gross let's uh, let's talk about what the
heck investor relations is andcannabis and why does it matter?

Jesse Redmond (11:12):
That's a good question and I think, depending
on the company, maybe it doesn'tmatter as much.
Obviously, a lot of youraudience here today are from
private companies.
Most cannabis companies areprivate and obviously in that
case having an outward-facinginvestor relations person may
not be as important.
It gets more important in thepublic world more investors to

(11:32):
communicate, with, moreresponsibilities in terms of
reporting and, I guess, maybe attimes more desire to promote
what you're doing.
Sometimes you see promotionwith the private companies, but
often more times around capitalraises, whereas with the public
companies I tend to see moreconsistent efforts on the
investor relations side.
And so for me this is the firsttime doing this job.

(11:54):
My life's had a lot of firsts.
I started on the investmentside and finished up doing hedge
fund things there.
I started a dispensary.
I had no idea what I was doing.
Honestly I I was a, you know,cannabis consumer.
My dad got a lot of medicalrelief that got me into it.
But when I started the store,you know I'd never run a store
before, I'd never, honestly, youknow, sold a quarter of weed

(12:15):
before and next thing I knew Iwas responsible for this whole
menu.
So I've kind of gottencomfortable with being
uncomfortable with firsts.
It was a little bit easier inthis case because I knew Leaf
Brands when I was an analyst atWatertower Research.
They were a company that Icovered, so I've been creating
content with them for about ayear, writing research reports,
interviewing the team, and gotto know them all well, so that

(12:39):
made things a lot easier for me.
But really, to answer yourquestion directly in terms of
what we do on the investorrelations side, I think the
commonalities between otherfolks and me in this role is
it's really leadingcommunications.
Like the first things that wefocused on when I joined Leaf
were updating the website,updating the presentation,
updating our social mediachannels so that our messaging
was strong and consistent acrossthose.
Another big element these daysis what we're doing today right,

(13:02):
which is content creation whichused to be kind of a cringe
term for me, but I think that'swhat a lot of the world is today
is we're moving away from50-page research reports and
doing short-form videos andone-page overviews, and so I say
content creation is a big partof my job.
We've been planting this bigcannabis farm, so we've been out
there shooting videos,interviewing the team, making

(13:22):
clips, doing long-form forYouTube, so getting the content
out.
There is a big part, and thenthe other big component, I'd say
, are the investor introductions, and so over the last five or
six years in cannabis, I spent alot of time getting to know
investors, the different thingsthat I was doing.
So I've been doing a lot ofinvestor introductions for Leaf,
letting people know about whatwe're doing at the company.

(13:44):
I think the last thing I'vebeen focused on, which I think
most other IR people do, is theanalyst side of the business,
which is a whole differentconversation in cannabis,
because there's really only afew of them left.
I used to be a cannabis analystand obviously I left as well.
But trying to get coverage,building relationships with
analysts, I'd say, is the lastpiece of the puzzle on the IR
side analysts, I'd say, is thelast piece of the puzzle.

Ben Larson (14:09):
on the IR side, it's super interesting to imagine
how modern media social media isinfluencing how public
companies are reporting to theiraudiences.
That's a nuance I never thoughtof and luckily you have been
very comfortable with hostingpodcasts and doing newsletters
and all that.
As you cover the space and youwere an analyst, you looked at

(14:30):
public companies day in and dayout.
What was it about Leaf?
And Leaf is a unique profile initself, so maybe you can talk a
little bit about that.
It's smaller, it's focused.
How did you decide yeah, thisis a public company that I'm
going to saddle up with when youhad everything that was
happening is a public companythat I'm going to saddle up with
.
When you had everything thatwas happening in the public
space and in cannabis.

Jesse Redmond (14:51):
Yeah.
So when I decided I wanted tomove to the operator side, there
were three companies that I wasinterested in working with.
I don't want to say the othertwo.
One other one is a bigCalifornia company that rhymes
with Rass House, and so I waspassionate about California.
I was interested in a companythat I thought was going to

(15:12):
change, and so I think, if we'rereally honest and we look
across cannabis, if we look atMSOS, which is the big ETF, it's
been now 1,548 days since itpeaked on February 10th 2021 at
$55.90 a share.
I checked before the show it's$2.75.
So 95% decline, 1,548 days ofpain.

(15:37):
And there's a lot of companiesin cannabis if we're all just
super honest with each otherthat are in trouble.
Right, there's the top group,which will make it.
There's the bottom group yourforefronts, your state houses,
your gold floras those arealready in receivership.
There's other ones that areheaded there.
Then there's a bunch of what Iwould call reform-dependent ones
in the middle that are waitingto see what their fate is.

(15:57):
You guys are talking aboutPennsylvania, right?
Trulieve 21 doors there.
Jushi 17 doors there.
Cresco 18 doors there.
13, 17 doors there.
Cresco 18 doors there 133MSO-owned doors in Pennsylvania.
So it's really critical for bigstates like that to flip.
Missing Florida last year washuge right that may have cost
Ayer their business, becausethey're so levered to Florida

(16:18):
and also Pennsylvania as well.
And so I want to be reallyselective about what I did next,
and I would say the shortestanswer is that I joined Leaf
because it represents anopportunity to invest ahead of
change.
So when the company put out thepress release about me joining
and I shared it some people werelike huh, hey, man, looked at

(16:39):
the financials, looked at thehistory interesting business,
but curious what you found socompelling?
And if you just lookedhistorically you probably
wouldn't.
It wouldn't be like a GTI whereyou saw consistent growth and
the strongest balance sheet andreal, sexy metrics that would
attract you to it.
But instead it's a company thathad been spending a lot of time
and effort on things that arejust about to pay off, and so

(17:01):
the biggest one is we'replanting Salisbury Canyon Ranch,
which is going to become one of, if not the largest, cannabis
farms in the world.
We're an extraction businessand so we make oils, we do bulk
extracts, focused historicallyon California, and we've been
sourcing material for like $20to $40 a pound for extraction
business, the farm gives us theability to grow better material

(17:22):
for closer to $10 a pound, andso you can start to do the math
and see how that affects yourmargins.
And so that's really.
The biggest thing that we havegoing on is planting Salisbury
Canyon Ranch.
It's in Santa Barbara County,1900 acre trophy ranch, gorgeous
property, 187 acre cannabispermit, 100 acre hemp permits,
and that's really going to helptransform the extracts business

(17:43):
from margin profile and take usfrom historically what's been a
mid-30s type margin profile upto the 40s and then into the 50s
.
So that's one thing that wassuper exciting.
Second one is we're entering NewYork, and so we're in the
process of doing that right now,acquiring a tier one processing
license which will allow us todo hydrocarbon, solventless and
ethanol extractions.

(18:03):
And you guys have probablytalked about New York a bit, but
folks that don't know off to areally slow start initially, but
starting to pick up a lot abouta billion dollars in revenue
last year, expect about 1.5billion this year and much
healthier margins.
A jar of live resin here that's20 bucks sells for about 60
bucks out there, and so that'sgoing to really be helpful from

(18:25):
a revenue and from a marginperspective.
So we have some otherinteresting things going on.
We're dipping our toe in theBitcoin pond.
We have some Bitcoin on ourbalance sheet, looking to expand
that as well.
We have some proprietaryadvances in extraction
technology that are reallyexciting that we'll be talking
about in the future.
But I'd say, to go back to youroriginal question, I joined
Leaf Brands because it presentsan opportunity to invest ahead

(18:46):
of change, and that got mereally excited.

Ben Larson (18:49):
Man, there's so much to dive into there.
I just want to give a quickshout out to Leaf Brands.
The quality of the oil you guyshave produced over the years
has been really top notch.
As a big oil consumer inCalifornia, thank you.
Yeah, we do a lot of purchasingfrom Leaf.
But NRA Bitcoin New York,largest California farm like

(19:10):
where do you want to go withthis?

AnnaRae Grabstein (19:29):
companies can go.
And and, jesse, you talkedabout some of what you saw as
pitfalls in the opportunitiesahead of some companies who have
made decisions that maybehaven't panned out, like Florida
or what's happening inPennsylvania, and what that
could mean for all of the, allof the MSOs that are there and
have made massive investments.
And I think we should talkabout what is required of

(19:49):
leadership in cannabis today,especially in public companies
who are having to share everyquarter what is going on inside
in order to actually buildbusinesses that make sense.
What are we seeing with theleaders that we believe in in
the market, jesse, in particular, what are you seeing?

Jesse Redmond (20:11):
So I would compare and contrast.
And so on the public space.
I think GTI is really theexample to use in terms of
having a strong balance sheetand historically a strong growth
profile as well.
I expect that to slow this yearand expect that to slow for all
of the top five, what we callthe tier one MSOs.
They're looking at mid singledigit growth at best, and the
reason for that is becauseFlorida didn't pass and

(20:32):
Pennsylvania we're still waitingon.
So while we wait, historicallynew markets usually provide
about a 2x revenue when theyflip to adult use, but also at
really nice margins for thefirst year or two.
So, absent those flips, youdon't have the revenue jump, but
you also don't have that marginimprovement for the new states,
and so instead you just getlargely price compression from

(20:53):
the old states, and so I thinkthat's going to make this a
tougher year for most of thosecompanies.
But to answer your question, Ithink ideally right, a crystal
ball would be helpful, becausethe most important thing to
predict would have been federalor state level reform.
I think that would haveinformed your decisions the most
.
And since we've been reallyslow on both fronts, right, we
haven't gotten safe banking, wehaven't gotten schedule three,

(21:14):
we haven't gotten uplisting, wecertainly haven't gotten federal
legalization and at the sametime, we've been slower on state
rollouts.
We talked about PA and Florida,but we're also waiting on
Minnesota, right?
I mean, that was a market wehoped to be spring of this year
and now we're looking at likespring of spring of 26 for
Minnesota, so kind of stalledout on a growth basis.
So I think what good leadershiphas done is largely been more

(21:37):
conservative.
They haven't gotten over theirskis and they've made timely
capital raises, like GTI hasdone.
Fantastic at raising capital.
They raised near the peaks in2021.
They haven't had to take anytoxic debt in the last couple of
years.
They're getting interest ratesthat aren't too far from normal
companies, and so I think thatthat's the timing of the capital
raises and the markets in whichyou choose to operate.

(21:58):
Did you go all in on California?
That probably would have beentough, unless you're one of a
couple of companies.
Did you have too much reformdependent exposure?
So contrast GTI with AIR.
Right, air raised a bunch ofmoney, issued a ton of shares,
ton of debt, really levered up,expecting these new markets to
convert, and so they're big inPennsylvania.

(22:21):
Go ahead.

AnnaRae Grabstein (22:22):
Let's double click on that a little bit.
And that one of the thingscannabis is highly risky.
So it's not that there's somecompanies that aren't into risk,
but I'd say that GTI is is alittle more careful.
They haven't made as manyacquisitions.
I would say that, like on therisk spectrum in cannabis,
they've been a little moreconservative than than some

(22:43):
others.
Um, and and you pointed themout, them out as a strong leader
and at the same time, youbrought up that Leaf is
investing in Bitcoin and I'mcurious of the spectrum of risk,
how you see it, and that choiceto go do something so far

(23:04):
outside of what we've seen othercompanies do before and take on
a risk like Bitcoin treasury.
So how do you define risk?

Ben Larson (23:13):
I was just going to say it really depends who you're
asking how risky it is.

AnnaRae Grabstein (23:18):
Yeah, I guess that's a great question.
I think in this case, what I'mthinking about is things outside
of the norm that have not beenproved in market necessarily.
So just tell us more about that, about Bitcoin and what you
guys are doing.

Jesse Redmond (23:35):
Yeah.
So the way I would think aboutit, anna Rae, is that in
businesses, we have the incomestatement, the cash flow
statement, and then we have thebalance sheet and, at Leaf, we
have strategies to drive theincome statement and cash flows.
And those are things like thefarm to improve margins, those
are things like New York toimprove revenue and improve
margins.
But what are you doing on thatother side of your business?
What are you doing on thebalance sheet?

(23:56):
And so since what?
2020, you've seen M2, the moneysupply, increase by about 40%,
so the value of your dollarsjust keeps going down.
And meanwhile, you have thingslike Bitcoin, where that
dilution just isn't possible.
I think it's 19.7 million coinshave been mined.
I think there's 21 million intotal, so don't quote me on the

(24:16):
math I think 1.3 million left.
So much more, much less of thatdilution that you see typically
in fiat type investments.
And so what we're looking to dowith Bitcoin specifically is to
invest in an appreciating butvery liquid asset and put that
on our balance sheet.
So, while we grow our P&L, ourincome statement, our cash flows
and the operations of thebusiness over here, you can grow

(24:38):
the balance sheet through theappreciation of Bitcoin while
also having something liquid andalso something diversifying.
So that's the idea there, andit's really based off of what
you're seeing.
You know, micro strategy, orstrategy as we call it these
days was the first one to do it.
You've seen over 80 publiccompanies adopt the Bitcoin
treasury reserve, so we're thefirst in cannabis, but not the
first, you know, across allpublic companies.
Currently, 19 states in the UShave measures to add Bitcoin to

(25:01):
their balance sheets as well,and so it's innovative, it's new
, but I would say it's notuncharted territory People out
there trying to strengthen theirbalance sheets using Bitcoin.

AnnaRae Grabstein (25:10):
Really interesting.
Thanks for that.

Ben Larson (25:12):
So we're talking about leadership and how certain
publicly traded companies areputting some distance in between
themselves and the rest, ormaybe everyone's kind of
leveling up at the same timerealizing that, okay, we're in
this for the long haul.
We can't rely on some likesubstantive change at the
federal level.
So we got to, we got to rungood business.
Is that being rewarded on theinvestor side, the public

(25:36):
company investors?
Are they becoming more savvyand becoming less susceptible to
just the pump and dump pressrelease cycle that we used to?
Yeah, tell us a little bitabout that.

Jesse Redmond (25:48):
Yeah, not even the pump and dump stuff man.
But we put out game-changingthings.
We are starting to plant one ofthe largest cannabis farms in
the world and we put out thatpress release and the stock just
hardly moves and volume remainsslow, and so sometimes that's a
little bit depressing from anIR side.
Ir is a heck of a lot more funif there's meaningful investor
interest.
And we're just in a climatewhere there's so little interest

(26:10):
in cannabis stocks period that,yeah, it doesn't move the
needle a lot, just putting outpress releases and I'm talking
about putting out good, realpress releases, not just hype-y
type stuff.
And the way I think about it isI think cannabis is the ultimate
show-me story right now, and somy approach with the way we're
handling things with Leaf is totell them what we're going to do
.
So we're going to plant thisfarm.

(26:31):
Show them we're out thereplanting this farm.
Just to carry through thisexample, that will take about
two months of growing the plants.
We'll do a harvest this summerand then we'll start putting it
in products this fall and we'regoing to plant a second harvest
for the fall harvest.
But the idea there is show themwhat we're going to do, show
them the execution on it, showthem the harvest.
But then it's not really, guys,until the third quarter, until

(26:53):
those financials come out, thatyou'll start that when we start
to introduce that material andyou start to see the margins
improve.
Third quarter doesn't come outtill what?
Sometime, you know, mid to lateNovember, and so we're on a bit
of a journey here and you justhave to get comfortable with the
fact that saying something andpromising something in this
environment isn't going to movethe needle on your stock.
So just say, hey, I'm going toshow you what you're doing, what
we're doing, we're going todocument it and be a little bit

(27:15):
patient.
But when the third quarterfinancials come out and you
start to see those improvements,then you can tie it back to all
the stuff we showed you before.
But absolutely great point,press releases do not move the
needle in this environment.

AnnaRae Grabstein (27:26):
As it relates to companies going public, we
haven't seen very many cannabiscompanies choose that path, and
it makes sense.
After you just talked aboutwhat's happened over the past
thousand plus days and MSOS justdecreasing, decreasing,
decreasing.
Do you see that as somethingthat will change and that there

(27:47):
would be some reason whycompanies start to think about
going public again?
No, how do you think aboutchoosing that path?

Jesse Redmond (27:54):
It's a great topic.
I see it going the opposite way, where I hear about companies
trying to go private.
You know I don't want to namethe business, it's not my story
to share.
But you know I was just talkingto the CEO of one company who's
in the latter stages of takingtheir company private.
That used to be public and thereasons for that is, in this
environment there just isn't aheck of a lot of benefit to
being public.
Right, there's scrutiny, a heckof a lot more work, a heck of a

(28:18):
lot more reporting and a heckof a lot more cost.
It's about, depending on thecompany, something like a
billion bucks a year to be apublic company, $80,000,
$100,000 a month, and so that'sa big deal.
And if there are benefits to itin terms of capital raising,
quicker pass to uplisting andfinancing things you can do
because you're public, that'swhy you do it, that's why you
bear that expense.
But in this environment therehasn't been too much benefit to

(28:39):
that.
So A I can't think of one.
Maybe you guys can tell me.
I can't think of a reversetakeover, ipo or anything
cannabis public equity-wise inthe last year or so, and, if
anything, I see that going inthe other direction.
I think the catalyst for changethere is kind of like the
catalyst for change in most ofcannabis, which is federal
reform.
I think if we were to getSchedule 3, if we were to get

(29:01):
safer banking and you were tosee investor interest pick up,
then I think there might be moredesire to be public.
But in this climate I don't seea ton of benefits.

Ben Larson (29:09):
Just really quick for my own naivete as a solely
private operator.
You talked about speed touplisting.
So if you're currently apublicly traded company and all
of a sudden we do hitlegalization, is there a benefit
to getting uplisted sooner than, say, someone that was
preparing from the private sideand waiting for that moment to

(29:30):
go public?

Jesse Redmond (29:30):
Yeah, nra might even be more informed than me on
this because I'm far from anexpert, but I know certainly if
you got to the TSX, which is theroute.
So most cannabis companies arelisted on the CSE and dual
listed on the OTC.
If you're a plant touchingoperator in the US, you can't be
at the NASDAQ or the New YorkStock Exchange.
Very perversely, the Canadianplant touching companies can be
in the US exchanges.

(29:51):
So it's a really strange systemthat we're sitting in right now
, but I don't honestly know theanswer.
Going from CSE to the NASDAQwould be easier, but I do know
that going from the TSX iseasier and that's part of the
reason I think that Jason andBoris made that move with
KiraSend.
They're all the same.

(30:12):
They should merge and call it.

AnnaRae Grabstein (30:13):
KiraSend, that was an announcement, folks.

Jesse Redmond (30:17):
KiraSend trades in the TSX.
So I think in that route it is.
But talking to my friend who'sgoing private, his thoughts are
if things do improve and hewants to do an IPO, he'll just
eventually do that financialcompany on the NASDAQ and go
that route.
So not a great answer to yourquestion, but I think if you
take the CSC, TSX, NASDAQ routeI think that is a more

(30:37):
expeditious path.

AnnaRae Grabstein (30:39):
Yeah, you're right.
It has to do with reportingrequirements and just building
the internal infrastructure sothat you are ready to go.
I mean, I think being on theCSE prepares you more than being
private, because at leastyou're going through audits and
different types of reportingalready.
That would be familiar, and youare also right, jesse, that

(31:05):
there haven't been any bigcannabis IPOs in the last 18
months or so, but interestinglythere has been some action
around hemp and public companieson the hemp side, most notably
of GTI's investment into Agrifyand its pivot to becoming a hemp
beverage company, and I thinkthat there are some other
examples of NASDAQ-listedcompanies touching and getting

(31:28):
involved in hemp, and I findthat to be pretty interesting,
considering that hemp is legalas a result of the Farm bill,
which is a law that has to getrenewed, and that NASDAQ is
somehow letting that happen,even though things could change.
And then what happens?
Have you been following thehemp market much?

Jesse Redmond (31:49):
Yeah, all the time we talk about it on Higher
Exchanges with Morgan quite abit.
They do some investments overthere and we do have public
companies on.
We always ask the questionbecause everybody's thinking
about it.
At Leaf Brands we have thehundred acre hemp permit at
Salisbury Canyon Ranch.
We're not using that this year.
We're kind of thinking about itsimilar to how Glasshouse is
thinking about it.

(32:10):
So Glasshouse Brands has the biggreenhouses in Camarillo, about
90 minutes south of where I amright now in Santa Barbara, and
they've been growinghistorically just
California-compliant rack flowerout of that facility.
But they have a new greenhousewhich is going to be a little
bit fancier, a mixed lightgreenhouse, and they're
evaluating do they grow whatGraham calls farm bill flower

(32:32):
out of that greenhouse or arethey going to grow California
cannabis out of that greenhouse?
And actually, interestingly,the farm bill Farm Bill
compliant flower sells for quitea bit more right now.
The THCA flower sells for quitea bit more right now than the
California flower.
So for people like us who havethe 100-acre hemp permit or
glasshouse with the biggreenhouses you're trying to

(32:53):
weigh, do I want to growCalifornia cannabis or do I want
to grow this THCA farm billflower.
And I think it's a really toughcall right now because, like
you were saying, we don't knowwhat's going to happen with the
farm bill, and you guys weretalking at the top of the show
about the state-level bansyou're seeing out there and that
a lot of the big states,especially that real strong
market in the Southeast and inthe South, have been starting to

(33:14):
clamp down.
So it's hard to see the futureand say, hey, do I want to make
this investment?
Do I want to grow thousands andthousands of pounds of THCA
flour when that market couldvanish overnight if the farm
bill were to change?
And so I think that the way Isee it, guys, is I think that
hemp right now is living thecannabis dream.
I'm so envious of what's goingon in the hemp world.

(33:34):
Direct-to-consumer no 280E.
Usps will ship it for you.
The costs are just insanelydifferent.
Our DCC licenses this year forSalisbury Canyon Ranch cost
$700,000.
Do you want to guess what thehemp licenses were?
It's like $1,200.
I'll guess $1,000.
Yeah, I think it was either$900 or $9,000.

(33:57):
I can't remember which one itwas, but let's say 9,000.
To be aggressive, I think itwas actually 900, but let's say
9,000.
I mean you're talking.
What a crazy order of magnitudedifference from 700,000 down to
under $10,000.
And so I think where we need toget is to this notion of one
plant, one set of rules, wherewe have the best qualities of
the legal market, which to meare the testing requirements of

(34:18):
the age gating.
But let's do, let's blend thatwith the open architecture of
the intoxicating hemp market andgive people more access.
No 280E interstate commerce, somuch lower from a cost
perspective.
But you can't just do that andlet it be the Wild West, because
then you get a bunch ofterrible products and kids using
them.
You know, my kids are 15 and 17and I've worked in the cannabis

(34:41):
industry most of their adultlife, but I want them to wait as
long as possible to start usingcannabis.
The last thing I want is my 15year old son and his
skateboarder friends at theskate park sucking on a you know
hhc pen or whatever it is.
So I want that stuff to stayaway and that's through age
gating.
I want clean products andthat's through the testing.
But let's blend that with amore open architecture.
I think that would be the best,would be to put together those

(35:02):
two worlds, but I think it'shard to figure out if you're a
public cannabis company or anycannabis company don't be public
.
If you're a cannabis company,you look at that market.
You see the revenue, you seethe margins, you see the
opportunity over there.
But when it's so fluid from aregulations perspective it
certainly is risky to make thatbet right now.

Ben Larson (35:18):
Amen, jesse, you have such a great voice online
and it's really important forpeople like you to be able to
get this word out there.
I think this year is really theopportunity for us to be
talking about the One PlantInitiative, and I'm hearing it
more and more, and so, as we getthrough this legislative
session, I think we'll have abetter understanding where
everyone's footing is and timeto bring the voices together.

(35:41):
You mentioned higher exchangesand Morgan and the work that you
do there.
You also have built quite thevoice on Cannabis X, formerly
Cannabis Twitter.
I'm just curious what have yougotten out of this over the
years, has it?
been great for educating theinvestor community or the

(36:02):
investee community?
That's not even a word.
Or do you just enjoy it?
Do you just enjoy being a partof the narrative?
How are you leveraging theplatform that you've built?

Jesse Redmond (36:12):
Yeah, it's a good question.
It's something I often askmyself.
So, taking a step back, I wasin the investment business 20
years, ran a store for threeyears in California and, in 2020
, decided to focus on thatintersection of cannabis and
investing.
The thing is, nobody knew who Iwas in this world and I didn't
know who anybody was in thisworld.
I found Emily Paxia because shewas in an interview with Montel

(36:35):
Jordan.

AnnaRae Grabstein (36:36):
Is that Montel Jordan?
Yeah, yeah.

Ben Larson (36:37):
Yeah the in an interview with Montel.

Jesse Redmond (36:38):
Jordan.
Is that Montel Jordan?
Yeah, the talk, the talk.
Yeah, it was Montel Jordan,yeah, yeah.
So I saw Emily on an interviewwith Montel.
I'm like she seems smart, Ishould reach out to her.
And then I met Morgan and thenI met more people.
But the reason I got an ex andstarted talking more on LinkedIn
was because I wanted to build abusiness, had a consulting
business on investing incannabis it was called Higher
Calling.
We focused on cannabisinvesting and I had a few core

(37:01):
family office clients.
But I was looking to grow thatbusiness and so I started a blog
called GreenGiantsnet, which nolonger exists, but wrote on
that for a couple of years, andI started sharing it on social
media and, honestly, I wasn'tgetting a lot of traction.
And then I learned aboutGlasshouse.
I met Kyle and Graham and Iwrote a three-part series on

(37:21):
Glasshouse and a few peopleonline I think Todd Harrison
shared it, Jane, though, doesJungle Java and X shared it and
I went from like a few hundredto a couple thousand followers
pretty quickly.
And then I started writing moreresearch about public companies
.
I realized that's what peoplewant to hear.
So I wrote about Cresco, Iwrote about Trulieve and I kind
of did this series on publiccompanies and built up my

(37:43):
profile that way.
And going back to your question,it was super helpful from a
career perspective becausethat's how Water Tower Research
found me, where I became ananalyst.
They're like, oh, a few peoplehave shared your work with us
and we're looking for somebodyto run our cannabis sector and
build that out for us.
And I already had a library ofcontent.
I was also doing a ton ofspaces on X.
I also was doing a differentpodcast called CEO Interviews on

(38:07):
Seeking Alpha, and so I startedover in my career when I was in
my, I guess, early 40s.
I was managing a hedge fund, putthat away, started a dispensary
, started over there, thenstarted over again trying to put
together the cannabis andinvesting side and really I mean
, if I'm being, I guess, themost honest, it was kind of like
out of desperation andnecessity.

(38:27):
They said I've got to letpeople know who I am, and so I
started using the platform thatway.
Ultimately it's been superhelpful from a career
perspective.
I've made a lot of greatfriends and so I do enjoy it.
But I think you need to figureout how to make the platform
work for you and not kind of getused by the platform.
So I try to be conscious of howI spend my attention and I do
find myself going over there andchecking it out of habit.

(38:50):
Or someone once said are youchecking social media or are you
microdosing attention?

Ben Larson (38:56):
And I was like oh shit.

Jesse Redmond (38:59):
Oh, checking social media or are you
microdosing attention?
And I was like, oh shit, and itstill makes me cringe because I
know I do it, I know I do it, Ithink we all do it right, like
you post something, and how gooddid those first few likes feel
right?
And then this guy retweeted it?
Oh boy, that stimulates alittle bit of dopamine and so
yeah, so I guess the answer isthat it has been helpful, but I
do try to be conscious in how Iuse it these days.

AnnaRae Grabstein (39:15):
What you're talking about is a theme that I
have found with the folks whoare working in cannabis and have
for a while now, who remainoptimistic and I count all three
of us in this discussion inthat which is a theme about
reinvention, ultimately, and itsounds like you really leaned
into using the platforms as away to reinvent yourself and a

(39:39):
new vision for who you wanted tobe out in your professional
career, and I think that'sreally interesting, and I think,
as we're getting towards theend of the episode, it would be
interesting to go a little morepersonal in terms of what it is
that's keeping you engaged andwhat you're finding most
rewarding about working incannabis through so much

(40:02):
tumultuous, constant need forchange and challenge.

Jesse Redmond (40:05):
Yeah, I would say there's a couple of reasons.
I'd say one is for me, it'spersonal.
And so when I was a kid I waslike 16, 17, my dad got in a
couple of bad car accidents backto back over two or three years
and by the time he was my age Iturned 50 this year.
My dad never worked again afterhe was 48 years old and instead
he developed a chronic painproblem called chronic regional
pain syndrome.

(40:25):
Super long story short, wentdown the opiates route, for pain
management was taking hundredsof milligrams of OxyContin a day
and eventually found a cannabisdoctor and, through a series of
tinctures and using flour forimmediate relief, he went from
those hundreds of milligrams tozero milligrams of OxyContin and
I saw his pain get better and Isaw his life get better.

(40:47):
And that's why I closed thehedge fund stuff and that's why
I started the dispensary wasbecause I saw an opportunity
there to go from a really greedycareer in investment management
to something where I thoughtthere was a financial
opportunity, certainly, but alsoa way to help people, and so I
think that's been helpful for meand having the dispensary just
reinforced that.
You guys have seen it in thebusiness.
How many people's lives haveyou seen just changed and

(41:11):
improved from using cannabis.
So I think that keeps me here,because I'm just definitely a
believer, because I've seen itfirsthand in my family and
firsthand with all thosepatients at the dispensary.
So that's number one.
Number two is I think thedestination is inevitable.
I think we get to 50 states.
I think we get safe banking.
I think we get to schedulethree.
I actually think eventually weget descheduled.
I think we get to the NASDAQ.
I think we get to federallegalization.

(41:32):
I think we get interstatecommerce.
I think all of those thingshappen.
I think the problem has beenthat we've been pretty
consistently too optimisticabout the timeframe under which
that will happen, and so that'swhat I think has made it wrong
from an investment perspective.
I always, often talk aboutthere's a fine line between
being early and being wrong, andwe're walking it, and I don't

(41:53):
think we're wrong necessarilythe thesis.
I think we're wrong about thetimeframe under which it would
happen, and so if I stillbelieve that Pennsylvania flips,
florida flips, like I said, weget to 40, 50 adult use states.
I think we get to schedulethree.
I think we get to safe banking.
I think all those things happen.
I even think we get to theNASDAQ over time, and so I'm not

(42:17):
here for a trade, I'm not herefor a year or two, I'm here for
the long term, and so I thinkthat's what keeps me here is the
belief on a personal level, andalso the belief that over time,
we're definitely going to getthere.

Ben Larson (42:23):
I love that you're used to the word inevitable.
It was like a big trigger forme to get into the space as well
and hang up my previous careers.
This is a freight train, a slowmoving freight train that is
moving towards a destination,and, yeah, I really, really
appreciate that perspective.
I'm going to pull you back ininto the investment pillar of

(42:44):
that decision.
And how much does that weigh onyou as you spend year over year
?
Because you know, as a formerhedge fund manager, like the
timeline of investment, how youcould be spending your time and
the return on it, like do youjust have this immense amount of
patients because it'soverweight by, like the purpose
of being here, or do you believethat the ROI is going to come

(43:04):
within the next call?
You know, five to 10 years, hmm.

Jesse Redmond (43:12):
Yeah, I paused because that's been hard, right,
I mean, all of us, financiallyand otherwise, in our careers.
I don't think really expectedto be here right now, right, I
thought there'd be a lot moreopportunity, I thought I would
be a lot further along, and I'vehad periods over the last few
years where I've made less moneythan I did when I was 25 or 30
years old, and so I pausedbecause, partially, you know,

(43:34):
there's some embarrassmentassociated with it, some pain,
some frustration associated withit, right, I mean, I know
people that we all respect inthe community that are, you know
, sharing rooms when we go toBenzinga these days, because
it's been so goddamn hard inthis space, right, and so, you
know, sometimes people flex thethings online showing how great
it is, but it's been reallyfucking hard, right, how great

(43:55):
it is, but it's been reallyfucking hard, right, and um, and
so I guess, you know, for me, Ibelieve, I guess I just I don't
know under I don't know theslope of that curve, I think
you're kind of getting at likedo things, you know, do all of
us in this space, you know, seethings.
See, you know our incomes, youknow, double over the next three
years and we get equity andstuff and it goes up three, four
, x over time.
Yeah, I do hope that happens,of course, but I think, more so,

(44:15):
going back to this inevitablenature, I think we do see a
recovery and I think we do seean improvement.
I think we do get therelong-term, and so I hope this is
the last thing I do, right,like I don't want to jump here
and do IR for a coffee company,or you know, I was thinking
about going and covering, likebeverage and alcohol when things
got so hard in cannabis, and Idon't want to do that.
I want to stay here and I thinkwe will get to the destination,

(44:37):
but I'm willing to be a littlebit more patient to get there
still.

Ben Larson (44:41):
Yeah, you mentioned your kids earlier and I really
appreciate the vulnerableresponse.
I've thought about it in recentyears as I'm building my legacy
, as in the place I hold in mykid's head, like will they be
proud of what I've done and likewhat I've invested in, and that
really kind of changed theequation for me a bit.
So, yeah, I really appreciateyou opening up about that.

Jesse Redmond (45:03):
Yeah, I think that's a great perspective too.
Yeah, absolutely, you want yourkids to be proud of you.
I think cannabis is somethingto be proud of, right.
I mean, my kids, like I said,are 15 and 17.
And I don't, you know, takebond grips in front of them, but
I do let them know what I dofor a job and I do teach them
responsibility around that, andso, yeah, I think that's a great
point is, you know, maybe thatdoes matter more than anything
that you say, ben, you know,doing something your kids will

(45:26):
be proud of is huge, and I thinkwe have an opportunity to be,
to be at the cutting edge ofsomething.
It's kind of cliche, butcannabis, I think, can change
the world and really improvepeople's lives.
So maybe that's another reasonI stick around.

AnnaRae Grabstein (45:37):
The resolute commitment from people that are
really in this for the long termis something that I respect and
that I feel connected to myself.
I've also thought at differenttimes like, well, maybe I should
go do something like what allmy friends from business school
are doing.
Their lives look pretty goodand they're driving really nice
fancy cars and buying secondhomes and things, but somehow we

(46:01):
choose to walk this linebecause I think we are a very
purpose-driven industry and thepeople that have chosen to stick
around.
We believe in many differentlevels of the opportunity.
It's not just about the dollarsand the win on the other side,
but it's about something evenbigger, which feels like a great

(46:22):
way to start wrapping up thisdiscussion.
So, jesse, why don't we move toour last call?
This is our time for you togive any final advice or call to
action.
Just a final thought for ourlisteners what's your last call?

Jesse Redmond (46:37):
Yeah.
So I guess my last thoughts arethis has been a brutal period.
We talked a lot about it today.
I talk about it a lot in mylife.
I talk about it a lot on thepodcast, but this has been a
really hard period and I guessfor me, talking about it helps.
This has been the worst periodinvesting-wise in my 25-year
career.
It's been worse than thedot-com era, which I was in San

(46:59):
Francisco for around 2000.
It's been worse than the creditcrisis in 2008.
We talked about earlier.
Msos peaked 1,548 days ago at$55 a share.
Now it's under $3.
So that's a 95% loss, and soit's been a massively
frustrating period for investors.
So I think, if you're anoperator, my last call

(47:20):
perspective is to keep going.
I really do feel confident thatwe're going to get there and I
see all of you doing great workand it's very much appreciated.
So I would say for theoperators it's just be
persistent, follow yourinstincts and just keep going.
We will get through this.
On the investor side, I look atit a little bit differently.
I think now is the time to bemore selective, and I think that

(47:43):
creates opportunity.
This is no longer a buy thebasket market.
On the investing side.
Don't just go buy the fivebiggest companies, because those
aren't the five best companiesanymore.
That mindset is gone.
You need to be selective and Iwould focus on two key criteria.
One is the strength of theirbalance sheet Make sure they
don't have so much debt andinterest expense that they can't
get out from underneath it.

(48:04):
And number two is look forcompanies that are going to grow
, tying this back to why Ijoined Leaf Brands.
I think we can grow as much ormore than any cannabis company
in the country over the next twoyears due to planting the farm
and entering New York.
And I think there's otherbusinesses that have great
opportunities as well.
You know, look at I talkedabout Glasshouse Brands earlier.
Turning on another greenhouse,they're going to continue to

(48:24):
grow.
Grown Rogue is anotherinteresting company, you know,
with roots in hard markets likeMichigan and Oregon.
That's going to New Jersey andIllinois.
So I think there areopportunities out there.
But my last remark is that nowis a time to be selective, but I
think that baby is gettingthrown out with the bathwater in
a lot of these cases.
So you can find businesses thatpeople are saying these are all

(48:46):
terrible, these are allterrible, but they're missing
the point.
I just think you need to bemore selective.

Ben Larson (48:51):
Wow.
Thank you so much, jesse.
It's been a real pleasurehaving you on and I appreciate
all aspects of this conversationwe had.
I'm happy to report that theLeaf stock ticker is up since
this show started so you'rewelcome.
Folks, if you're looking for it, it's Leaf with three E's.
Jesse, just keep going, man.
Thank you so much andappreciate the force that you

(49:14):
are in our category.
Great, I really appreciate youhaving me.

Jesse Redmond (49:16):
Thank you so much and appreciate the force that
you are in our category.
Great, I really appreciate youhaving me.
Thank you very much.

Ben Larson (49:19):
All right, we'll talk to you soon.
All right, everybody.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
We really appreciate it.
Don't forget to engage, leavecomments on our LinkedIn feed,
like, subscribe, do all thethings.
Share this conversation.
I see that we had a couplehundred people watching during
the live recording.
We do record live on linkedinevery thursday, almost every

(49:41):
thursday, and then you can findus wherever you'd like to listen
to your podcast.
Thank you to our teams atvirtosa and wolf meyer.
Can't do it without you guysand, of course, our incredible
producer, eric rosetti.
If you enjoyed this episode,please drop us a review on Apple
Podcasts, on Spotify, whereveryou listen, really does help us

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get seen Until next time.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high.
That's the show.