June 19, 2025 • 53 mins
Ever found yourself paralyzed by uncertainty in the cannabis industry? You're not alone. This episode with leadership coach Andrea Baillo reveals why waiting for perfect clarity is the surest path to stagnation, and what to do instead.
Andrea, who transitioned from cancer biology to executive roles at Green Thumb Industries and Open Book Extracts before founding Rooted for Success, shares her provocative insight that leaders need only "30% certainty and 100% courage" to move forward effectively. The conversation explores how cannabis executives can create clarity rather than waiting for it, especially crucial in an industry characterized by regulatory whiplash and financial pressure.
We dive deep into why behavior-based metrics deserve as much attention as financial KPIs. While companies track revenue religiously, they often neglect measuring how leaders build trust, communicate effectively, and display integrity—the very behaviors that form the backbone of successful organizations. Andrea offers practical frameworks for having difficult conversations, creating psychological safety, and recognizing when defensiveness is derailing progress.
The episode also features fascinating market insights: while cannabis prices are compressing, unit sales continue climbing. Consumers aren't using less cannabis—they're just paying less for it. Pre-rolls (especially infused varieties) are steadily gaining market share over flower as convenience becomes paramount for busy consumers.
Perhaps most powerful is Andrea's exploration of perception and control. Her forthcoming book examines how the stories we tell ourselves about situations often limit our potential more than external circumstances. As she puts it: "You are in the driver's seat. The only thing you can control is your next action and how you react to what's happening."
Ready to transform your leadership approach? Listen now and discover why, as Andrea concludes, "If you're not leading with intention and attention, you're just leading by accident."
--
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrea Baillo (00:00):
I don't want something to be a certain way.
If I'm frustrated by somethingsomeone's doing, that's not
anything I can do.
The only thing I can do is makemy next action and decide how
I'm going to react to what'shappening.
And so if I can help peopleunlock that and know that
they're in charge, I just am soexcited about that opportunity
for them to unlock whatpotential there is for them.
They don't need to be in aposition they don't want to be
(00:21):
in.
Ben Larson (00:29):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 92 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Grabstein.
We're recording Thursday, june12, 2025.
And I'm getting ready forvacation, so I'm really excited
about that.
Sorry if I piece out halfwaythrough the recording, but we
(00:55):
have Anna Rae to hold us down.
Anna Rae is in Denver after aquick trip to Chicago.
Anna Rae, how's the week going?
How's the conference circuit?
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:00):
Oh, I'm deep in the conference circuit.
I'm good.
Yeah, I'm on the 20th floor ofa hotel in Denver looking out
over the front range.
I've got snowy mountains out mywindow, and right after we're
done recording, I'm going to beheading to the International
Cannabis Bar Association'sannual event to speak to the
lawyers.
And I just came back from theBenzinga Capital Conference
(01:24):
where I was there.
Ben Larson (01:25):
How was Benzinga?
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:26):
Yeah, it was good.
I was talking about M&A, whichis interesting in the space
right now.
The environment's reallyshifted a lot, but Benzinga was
good.
I think that the industry hasseen its fair share of
disappointments over the lastcouple of years, but there was
more optimism, and I think thatthere was optimism coming from
(01:48):
unique places, and there weresome new narratives around the
decline of occasions for alcohol, tobacco and junk food and how
the growth that continues on theconsumer side of cannabis is
something that all thoseindustries are drooling over,
and so if cannabis can justfigure out how to get out of its
own way, um, the if only we hada pathway to mainstream shelves
(02:13):
.
Ben Larson (02:14):
Uh offer cannabis.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:16):
Yes, Well, with that, you know there are
people.
Of course we're also talkingabout hemp derived cannabinoids
and nobody has a crystal.
And there's so much legislationin front of us right now on the
hemp kind of accessibilityslash prohibition spectrum, but
everybody acknowledges that hemphas proved that there are a
(02:39):
tremendous amount of unreachedconsumers in the adult use
medical market and that's hugefor everybody.
No matter how this all shakesout, we know that there's people
that want these products thataren't currently buying them at
dispensaries right now or fromtheir illicit plug down the
street.
They're buying them in otherretail channels and in states
(03:02):
that don't have programs, andall of that in other retail
channels and in states thatdon't have programs and all of
that.
Ben Larson (03:08):
So, yeah, yeah, well , it seems like over time,
that's the direction things aregoing because of the actions
that are being taken in placeslike California, texas and so on
and so forth.
So we'll see.
We'll see what the governmenthas in hold and where they'd
like these transactions to bemade.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:24):
Yeah, and I do have some little bits of data
to share, Took some good notes.
I went to a secondary eventthat happened after Benzinga.
Hoodie Analytics, which is adata platform that we've talked
about on this show before,hosted a private hoodie sessions
event for folks after theconference where they put on
(03:49):
some really great presentationsand invited some other people to
put on presentations as well,including an excellent,
excellent presentation fromFrank Colombo of Viridian
Capital, and I'm going to bereaching out to Frank to get him
to come on.
I want him to share what heshared at that event with our
listenership.
It was a really deep dive intoproduction capacity in New York
(04:15):
and he talked about that.
New York really missed being atop 10 market in 2024, but he
expects that it will be a topfive market in 2025 and that it
will likely hit $4 billion by2030.
And he broke out how he gotthere.
Just to kind of recap who thetop five state legal markets
(04:36):
were in 2024, California tookthe top seat with bringing in
about $4.6 billion.
Topsy was bringing in about$4.6 billion.
Michigan came in next with alittle over $3 billion.
Florida $2.1 billion market and, of note to remind listeners,
(04:57):
it is a medical market and is$2.1 billion, although it's a
very, very open access medicalmarket compared to what we see
in some of the more closed,complex medical environments
like Texas.
Illinois brought in $2 billionand Pennsylvania also a medical
market with a lot of compliancerestrictions on products, came
in at $1.7.
(05:17):
So the prediction from Brindianis that New York will slide
into those top fives by the endof this year.
New York will slide into thosetop fives by the end of this
year and, of note, I think thatTexas would also be a top five
market if it had a moreaccessible program, be it
medical or adult use.
Ben Larson (05:47):
Because we do see that there are two of the top
five states are medical marketsand they're still top five by
revenue, uh, markets.
So it's the.
The disparity betweencalifornia and, or, I should say
, the non-existent disparitybetween california and michigan
is is is notable.
I mean, california is what?
Four times the size of michigan, and everything I've heard
about the michigan market isthat you can go into a place and
get a bag of gummies for like$3.
(06:10):
And I think those same gummiesin California are still, you
know, $18 or $15.
And so, like the math isn'tmathing, like California should
be way out in front and New Yorkshould not be fighting for
fifth place.
Like you know, these aremassive States and massive
markets and, um, that's great,I'm glad we're built, building
(06:31):
multi, multi-billion dollarmarkets, but man, let's uh, I
want to, I want to see a littlebit more uh crunching of the
numbers and just kind ofhighlight how bad these systems
are.
Andrea Baillo (06:47):
Yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:48):
Well, what is the difference between
California and Michigan?
I mean, I think that you'reright that both markets have
massively compressed pricing,but Michigan does not apparently
struggle with the amount ofillicit product in the market
and options for consumersoutside of legal channels.
So there is a perspective thatmost of the transactions in
(07:10):
Michigan are happening in themarket that's being reflected in
these numbers, whereas inCalifornia we're fighting
against a lot of other things.
So, yeah, a few other kind oftop line data points that I
learned at the hoodie event isthat while prices are down and
top line revenue in some ofthese states is declining, unit
(07:33):
sales are up.
People know this.
That means that people are notconsuming less cannabis, they're
just consuming cheaper cannabis.
And also, you know, in these newstates and overall, in the
product mix and the assortment,flour is still the biggest
category, but it is slowlydeclining and it's losing its
(07:57):
spots to growth categories,namely the pre-roll category,
which is growing incredibly fastand I think it shows, you know,
consumers just don't know howto roll joints.
They don't want to roll joints.
Convenience is something thatis really meaningful to people.
They want to move fast.
If they want to smoke, it'sgreat to be able to just buy a
(08:17):
pre-roll and in the pre-rollcategory in particular, infused
pre-rolls are just gainingground at a much faster pace
than non-infused pre-rolls,showing that consumers are
really drawn towards higherpotency products per use, for
better or for worse.
Yeah, those are my data updatesand industry updates from my
(08:43):
time on the road the last fewdays excellent.
Ben Larson (08:46):
Well, thank you for for doing the work and being out
there.
Uh, it's been a little bit ofFOMO here on my side not not
being in Chicago, denver forboth.
Whatever you're doing, thelawyer thing and and Canra
happening at the same time, andthen and then Bevanette as well
in New York um, but I have beenable to be home and be a little
(09:07):
bit more same time, and thenBevanette as well in New York,
but I have been able to be homeand be a little bit more
introspective and try to free upmy plate as I depart this
weekend for Japan.
So, yeah, excited about that,but also really excited about
this conversation that we'rehaving today with our guest and
kind of digging into theleadership.
I think we queued up a lot ofgood topics last week in our
one-on-one and I'm excited todive in with Andrea.
(09:29):
So should we get her on?
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:31):
Yeah, let's do it, I'll queue her up.
So Andrea Bilo is a scientistturned coach and founder of
Rooted for Success.
She's had leadership rolesthroughout her career, spanning
work as a cancer biologist incraft beer and in really
important executive level rolesin R&D and cannabis, both as the
(09:51):
chief scientific officer atOpen Book and at leading R&D at
Green Thrum Industries.
Now in her career, she helpsexecutives and organizations
thrive in high pressure,fast-changing environments, and
her coaching centers on clarity,structure and human connection
to drive performance andprogress.
So we are really excited towelcome Andrea to the show.
(10:14):
Welcome, andrea.
Andrea Baillo (10:16):
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you
guys.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:18):
Awesome.
Well, so let's just jump in.
Throughout the conversationsthat we have on the show, we
talk often about how cannabis isbasically in a full-blown
crisis.
Constantly there is financialpressure, there's whiplash of
regulation.
A lot of companies have moralein the gutter.
So I think we should just startby what your take on it is.
(10:41):
Do you think that leaders arefailing themselves and their
teams?
Andrea Baillo (10:50):
I mean, I don't think everybody's failing
themselves.
I think a lot of people aresucceeding in their own way, and
then success is defined by you,as it is anyway.
But yeah, I think thatultimately, people are failing
themselves, especially ifthey're sitting around trying to
chase certainty.
So if we're sitting here tryingto be a hundred percent certain
before we take action or beforewe make a decision, then you're
100% certain that I'm 100%certain that you're going to
stay stuck.
(11:10):
So we just need like 30%clarity, a little, you know, 30%
certainty, and then 100%courage and confidence, and then
you can go.
Ben Larson (11:19):
You know, operating in this space I've tuned myself
to.
I don't know if I've had tolike trick myself or convince
myself, but it's like, oh, weget the opportunity to work
through these challengingproblems every day, and I've
always associated with being aproblem solver, right, like
that's just kind of what.
If you ask my wife, I'm toopredestined to do that and so
(11:46):
I'm approaching that every day.
But like, what kind of?
What kind of tools should we,as leaders, be outfitting
ourselves to kind of work inthis chaotic environment?
And like, how do we come out ofthis every week, kind of with
that positive outlook?
Andrea Baillo (12:02):
Mm, hmm, well, I mean, especially if you're
thinking about it on a weeklybasis, I mean instantly.
I just go to like a scorecard,right, and it's interesting, a
lot of people will usescorecards to look at different
metrics, especially financially,looking at money and things
that are very tangible.
But behaviors are metrics thatpeople should be tracking as
well, and so, like, the workthat I do is a lot is heavily
focused on behavior basedmethods, and so knowing how your
(12:26):
people are showing up,equipping them to be resilient
meaning they can build trust,meaning they can communicate
effectively, meaning they showup with integrity, they're
competent, like all of thosethings need to be in place and
those things should be trackedas well, like alongside the
metrics of how much revenue dowe make this, you know, this
month, or how much their sales,or how much do we close or open.
(12:47):
So I wonder, I mean, for youguys, is that something you guys
?
You guys keep in mind whenyou're?
You know problem solving, andare you thinking about behaviors
beyond just the numbers?
Ben Larson (12:58):
Behaviors beyond the numbers.
I guess the way that wegenerally think about is we have
these like rules of engagement.
You know we have our habitsthat we've established as a
company.
You know we have ways that wecommunicate with each other,
ways we show up, and we'veactually penned all of this, so
it's like what started out as aleadership agreement ways that
(13:18):
we show up in a meeting andsupport each other but also like
are very direct and sharp withfeedback.
We've actually expanded thatand turn it into an entire code
of conduct for our entirecompany and it's a way for us to
ensure that we're showing upproperly.
But I can't honestly say thatwe have a good method of
measuring it retroactively.
(13:40):
Right.
It's like, okay, we set thestandard, we can call each other
on it if it's not, if we're notup to to those established
guidelines.
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:47):
But I can't say that we we've established
like a metric based system to tomeasure ourselves to prioritize
, slowing down to track thingsthat aren't already so clearly
quantifiable, like cogs andrevenue, and that there is
(14:13):
sometimes, like I see through,like performance management
moments that people willsometimes quantify levels of
engagement and quantify certaindifferent types of leadership,
but I don't see it happening,certainly on a weekly basis, and
I think we're lucky if ithappens on an annual basis in a
really substantive way In mostcompanies.
(14:35):
There are unique unicorns inall of it, for sure.
Andrea Baillo (14:39):
I mean.
I think that's interesting,because that is one of the
reasons why I also think peopleare failing themselves is not
paying attention to thosebehaviors, because that is what
drives your culture right.
It's not what we.
It's not.
Culture is not a vibe, right?
It's what we.
It's a system of behaviors thatare, that are supported and
nurtured.
And so, without the feedbackloops and without growing your
(14:59):
people and equipping them tohave the skills to manage how
they're responding to whatthey're hearing, you know how to
correctly communicate and beable to have healthy, courageous
conversations with people.
The rest of it really doesn't,isn't going to work anyways.
So it is like I really viewleadership as the backbone of
(15:20):
any business, and I think that'sone thing that's often
neglected and does deserve anumber on the scorecard.
AnnaRae Grabstein (15:25):
So leadership , like it's a funny thing
because throughout my life, whenI was younger, people would
tell me that I was a naturalleader, and I think that I had
this thing in my mind, that Ithought that it was something
that was.
You either had it or you didn't.
And as I've grown in my career,I see it very differently and
there are natural tendenciesthat I have and that other
(15:47):
people have that could beconstrued as leadership.
But I see now, as I've grown asa leader, that leadership is
something that I need toconstantly work on and invest in
and check myself on, and I'dlike to hear from you, as a
coach, what it means to work onleadership.
Andrea Baillo (16:06):
Yeah, I mean it's a whole set, right, like I mean
, ultimately, at the end of theday, leadership is no longer
about you.
Leadership is about other people.
So I think that's the firstthing really you have to
understand when you step intoleadership.
I think, people, it's notsomething like you can like I've
read a million books aboutleadership I'm sure you guys
have as well, right, so you canread about it, you can have the
theory of it, but leadership issomething that you learn through
(16:27):
experience and it's somethingthat has to be practiced, like.
You really have to get thepractical sense of it, and so
leadership is an accumulation ofthe knowledge and experiences
that you have, but it really isdependent on how you show up and
what you're saying and whatyou're thinking, and you have to
then be very reflective.
(16:48):
So, for me, the greatestleadership skill is awareness
and reflection, so being able tosit back, hear, understand what
you're going through, what'syou're in your control, what's
not, and then moving forwardwith that, zooming out right,
Accepting the things as the waythey are and staying with what
you can.
Does that, how does that?
How does that sound for you?
Ben Larson (17:08):
I, I, I.
I mean, it resonates a lot withme.
You know, I, I find myself, andAnna Rae and I are are similar
in.
The fact is, like we what wasthe term we were discussing
before the show Middle?
AnnaRae Grabstein (17:20):
Like we were, we're, we're middles.
Ben Larson (17:23):
Anna Rae, can you define middle for us?
Because I just heard thismorning and I was a little
offended before I got thedefinition.
AnnaRae Grabstein (17:30):
Yeah, I have to call out Andrew Lowitz, who
was termed a middle at a dinnerthat I was at this week.
And then he said, no, Anna Raeis a middle.
And I thought what the heck isa middle?
That sounds sexual and I'muncomfortable.
So I turned to chat GPT, whohelped me understand that being
a middle is about someone whosits in the middle of group
(17:52):
dynamics and often helps moveconversations, resolve conflict
and bridges ideas.
It's like a go between andhelps people find common ground.
That's what a middle is.
Ben Larson (18:03):
Yeah, so in that light, you know what I, what I
pride myself in is my focus onensuring that I'm a facilitator
of growth for my team members.
Right, like, how do I help themachieve what they want to
achieve?
How do I help them all align toallow the company to achieve
what they want to achieve?
And that's how I've chosen torun my company.
(18:26):
Right, that's, uh, the thebrilliance of the team is is
like all these differentconstituents like come together.
This can also be contrasted withtake some famous leaders out
there that have a differentstyle.
Right, you have, like stevejobs, steve Jobs and Elon Musk
set aside, whatever you thinkabout them because of recent
politics, but you know, they Iprobably wouldn't define them as
(18:51):
middle type of leaders.
They are more the visionaries,the ones that have.
They're just, they're dead seton what the future needs to look
like, and it can't happen fastenough, and they're going to
drive their team super hard, andso we see success in like a
number of different ways, andI'm wondering how.
Where I struggle sometimes ishow to rationalize that, how to
(19:13):
take pieces of both, or maybeit's just settling in and
realizing that every leader isdifferent and that you just have
to be confident in that Likewhat's the best way for a leader
to rationalize that, one thatI'll raise my hand right May
suffer occasionally fromimposter syndrome.
Andrea Baillo (19:30):
Yeah, I hear that .
I'll kind of approach the firstpart, which is like, do I need
to be visionary?
Do I need to be integrating andleading?
There's like, if there's booksand I think it's Gina Wickman's
book that talks aboutintegrators and visionaries, and
every company needs both.
And so in small startups, it'sGina Wickman's book that talks
about integrators andvisionaries and every company
(19:51):
needs both.
And so in small startups it'sreally challenging for a leader
Like that's where I think I seea lot of struggles is more in
the solopreneurs and the really,you know, small startup
companies is where there's a lotof a lot of friction and a lot
of challenges and pressurebecause you're trying to operate
in places that maybe you're notthe most comfortable, in places
that aren't you don't yournatural gifted strengths and
talents.
And so in your case, I thinklike it's perfectly fine to have
, right You're, if you're theintegrator and you're the one
(20:12):
leading the business and movingforward, everybody, and then
someone else is the visionarythat's coming up with the 10
different ideas, and theneveryone and then everyone's
making sure that only movingforward with one at a time,
right.
Does that address what you justsaid?
Because then you talked aboutimposter syndrome, which
managing imposter syndromereally just comes with being
confident, right.
That's where, again, I'm goingto lean into the backbone of how
(20:36):
I even got into coaching andhow I believe and how I live my
life is through perception andlike what we see, right, how we
react to what we see, and thenthe story we tell ourselves
after, how we react to what wesee, and then the story we tell
ourselves after, and so that'swhat you're going through right
there.
You're telling yourself a storythat you're not good enough or
that you're not in the rightrole, or you know, whatever it
is that you're thinking andthat's completely like, that's
(20:58):
with you, like that's the thingyou get to own and you get to
carry and you get to change andno one else is going to do that
for you.
AnnaRae Grabstein (21:05):
You brought up getting into coaching and I
think it's really interestingbecause your background has been
at some really great companiesand that I think are really well
respected in the cannabis spaceboth GTI and Open Book and
before that doing stuff in craftbeer and in biology and now
you're doing coaching and I'mwondering what it was that took
(21:28):
place in in your career that gotme to a, got you to a place
that that you wanted to make ashift and to reinvent what you
were doing.
Andrea Baillo (21:39):
Yeah, that's a good question and it's hard.
I don't know if I try andanswer it briefly, um, cause I
don't want to go into too longof it all goes back into time,
right?
So I've spent I spent the lastthis last spring actually doing
a ton of re-examining my lifeand how I got to where I am and
looking at these quote unquoteblue dot moments and how they
connect and what formativemoments led me to here.
(22:00):
And the short and long of it isthat I was always going to be
here Like this is where I wasgoing to end up.
I'm also what I consider anatural born leader.
To be here Like this is where Iwas going to end up.
I'm also what I consider anatural born leader.
I remember my first backpackingtrip when we went to Pictured
Rocks in Michigan and I wasasking my friends about it Like
hey, how did that go, do youremember?
And they're like you sent me alist, you told me what to buy,
you told me where to buy it, youplanned the whole 42 mile hike
(22:23):
Da, da, da, da, da da.
Like we didn't make it.
We obviously people werebruised and injured and losing
toenails and and I ran to likethe sheriff and like or you know
, not a sheriff but like ran tofind a ranger and got us rescued
.
So, like, I was always in thatleadership position.
And then, as I became older thatwas when I was like in my young
twenties, as I was evolvingthrough life I started to see
(22:46):
that, like I went backpackingthrough South America by myself,
I started to find myself invery uncomfortable situations.
I lived in a camper on BLM land, which is Bureau of Land
Management, without runningwater or electricity for six
months in Wyoming.
And, like, I put myself inthose places and, like, through
backpacking and taking extremehikes and exploring, because, a
(23:08):
I like to learn, but B what I'velearned is that discomfort is
my playground.
I find great joy there andgreat comfort actually, and I
think that that's what I want tohelp share with other people is
being in that space gives me somuch growth and unlocks so much
potential that even in this day, right now so, for example, you
just said I worked right OBX, Iworked at GTI.
(23:30):
I left OBX without a game plan.
I left my job and was like Idon't know how I'm going to make
money.
I don't know how long I'm goingto be without income.
I don't see the plan ahead, Idon't see the road, and those
are the kinds of things that Ifind that, when I do, I end up
unlocking something that is whatI was supposed to be, where I'm
supposed to be going, right.
(23:50):
I always, when you get in thatpanic mode, I'm always like I
will find out why this is allhappening later, and so I know
this kind of sounds a little woowoo maybe.
I hope not, but at the end ofthe day, what I've learned is
that I am in my driver's seat.
I choose what is happening, andso when I don't want something
to be a certain way, if I'mfrustrated by something
(24:12):
someone's doing, that's notanything I can do.
The only thing I can do is makemy next action and decide what
I'm going to, how I'm going toreact to what's happening, and
so if I can help people unlockthat and know that they're in
charge, I just am so excitedabout that opportunity for them
to unlock what potential thereis for them.
They don't need to be in aposition they don't want to be
in, and so that is why I'm doingwhat I'm doing, why I'm doing
(24:34):
it in cannabis.
I'll wrap up here.
I don't want to occupy the micfor too long, but why I'm doing
cannabis is that is where I amvery, you know, I have a great
passion for the plant.
I love as the scientist insideof me, I love the multifaceted
approach of cannabinoids in thebody and how it can interact
with a lot of differentreceptors, and I think that
there's a huge potential for itto be very beneficial for, you
(24:54):
know, not only these common needstates, but also in
therapeutics, and so that's whyI want to like really help this
industry as well.
Ben Larson (25:01):
You're reminding me of a podcast I just listened to
last night.
It was this conversationbetween two of my friends,
actually Jason Gaddis and JohnO'Connor, and one's like a
relationship coach and one'sactually a performance coach,
and they were talking about thathow in high intensity or crisis
situations, it's really hardfor anyone to see like long-term
(25:27):
, to see down the road, to beable to create the space and the
time to design the path forward, and so I love the fact that
you just threw yourself into thedeep end.
It's like now I have, now Ihave to figure out a path.
But one of the interestingtools that I pulled out of that
conversation was and how thecoaching helped was like being
able to separate someone fromthe timeline.
(25:49):
It's like like you have to beable to do that in order to
create the path forward and toidentify the steps that you need
to take.
But it really does take a coachto be able to help you separate
yourself from the timeline.
Maybe it's weed, maybe weed isyour coach.
But yeah, andrea, I'm curiousis how do you best position
(26:11):
someone?
Or when is someone ready forcoaching?
You know, like, how do they getmentally prepared for that?
Or you know, it's like Iactually find myself in this.
You know I'll listen to a bunchof podcasts, I'll have a bunch
of conversations, but toactually commit to something
like how do you know when it'sthe right time?
Andrea Baillo (26:29):
That's amazing question question, because that
is my greatest challenge.
I find that leaders are veryaware that there's a problem.
I don't think they can pinpointthe problem exactly as much as
they think they can, becausethey're just seeing it from.
You know they're, they're justseeing it right now and haven't
really necessarily dove intoexactly what it is.
Anyways, the question was sohow do I get people ready?
(26:52):
The thing is, people need to bein quite a bit of pain,
unfortunately.
You really have to be.
You honestly have to be inenough pain typically for
someone to reach out and lookfor help.
I think people who are proactive, potentially like both of you,
right who are very engaged andvery self-aware and already
practicing reflection, mightpick this up, as you would
(27:13):
anything else, um, like maybe atherapist, right, you go, right,
you're doing EFT therapy withright and you're, so you might
be one who will go into iteasier.
But people who, um, the moreresistors, like they are going
to need to be in a seriousamount of pain.
Um, and that is what's going todrive them to to start working
on this and what prepares themfor it.
How about this, let me?
How about like, let's thinkabout weight loss or something
(27:36):
else, or trying to get in shaperight, like it's the same thing.
Right, like you need someone.
Right, you go get a, you gohire someone to help you.
Like there's, it's the samereason.
Someone doesn't start to loseweight or start a diet?
Right, there's this fear,there's this.
I don't want to accept that.
This is.
I don't want to accept thetruth.
I don't want to have to do thework.
So all these things like get intheir way.
Right, I'm too busy, like yousaid.
(27:57):
Oh, I have to count the numbers, so these are what matter.
Right, this doesn't.
So there's all of theseconstraints and limiting beliefs
that are holding people backfrom getting the opportunity to
talk to someone, to have asounding board, to actually get
the thoughts out of their heads.
Because one of the coolestthings that I've seen with
people is when they starttalking and I'm like okay, and
then I reflect back what I hearthey say.
(28:18):
They're like no, and I'm likeoh, so they're like huh, I don't
even know how to articulatewhat is actually in my head, and
that can be so amazing.
I've seen so much growth frompeople when they're really
getting into their head andpulling it out to verbalizing it
.
Do you guys have any?
AnnaRae Grabstein (28:33):
similar experiences?
Oh, absolutely, I think thatthe perception of how people are
being kind of processed bytheir teams is often very
different from the way thatpeople hope to be showing up for
them.
And I think that what you'retouching on is that working on
ourselves as leaders is not justa nice to have.
(28:54):
It's something that's reallycore to leading a company, to
moving forward in your career,even if you're not in a place
that you're leading yet.
And in companies we have thisstructure of corporate
governance with boards and theconcept that a board is there to
sort of be a check and balanceto an executive.
(29:16):
And my good friend, melanieCurtis, who we had on at the
beginning of the year, who is apeak performance coach herself
she talks about building apersonal board of directors and
I really love this concept and Ithink that a personal board of
directors and I really love thisconcept and I think that a
personal board of directors hasmany roles on it, and a coach is
one of those roles.
If you choose to go and have acoach, that is more of a someone
(29:39):
that you're actually paying tohelp you, and it's also mentors,
it's advisors, it's peers, it'speople that we can turn to when
we're faced with the hardestthings, who we are asking to
give us true feedback and tohold a mirror to ourselves.
And I think it's a reallybeautiful concept of this idea
(30:00):
of who is our personal board ofdirectors and for people to be
thinking about it and evenputting some structure around it
and I certainly have it in mymind of who some of my personal
board of directors is.
I say, ben, you're on mypersonal board of directors.
Ben Larson (30:14):
I was going to say Anna Rae, you're officially on
my board of directors.
AnnaRae Grabstein (30:18):
Yeah, but what I haven't done is been
courageous enough to actuallytell my personal board of
directors that they're on it.
I know who they are, but I'mnot sure that they know who they
are on it.
Like, I know who they are, butI'm not sure that they know who
they are, and and and I'm not ina crisis of my own personal
leadership, but but I want towork on myself all the time, and
so I hear from you, andrea,that that many times, like
(30:40):
you're, you're meeting withpeople when they are in that
crisis moment.
But but isn't it good forpeople to raise their hand when
they're in a good place to andbe like, get me stronger.
Like I just got a personaltrainer because I want to have
bigger muscles, I'm like, okay,I'm like, I'm ready to.
Ben Larson (30:55):
Like I want, I want, I want to, you know, my arms to
look better and feel stronger,but it's not because I'm like
I'm in a crisis no-transcriptposition at the top right and
(31:43):
and that's true in business,that's true in your relationship
like you just have to berelentless with, with self
improvement in all these aspects, and waiting for the crisis is
probably it's the most obvioustime, but it's also like the
most painful and the worst time.
Andrea Baillo (31:59):
You know, interestingly, that's like how
coaching usually goes to is likeI start off with someone we
meet every week for like thefirst two months.
Then it goes to bi weekly andsuddenly it's weekly, you know
it's monthly.
And then it stretches out towhere it's like okay, great,
like we're you're on amaintenance, exactly Right.
You're checking in every fewmonths like, okay, things are
(32:24):
going well or something pops up.
Hey, can I have a conversation?
Sure, let's let.
What's what's new?
But it's really about like ayou're like thinking about
weight loss or something likeright, I know how to count
calories, I can.
If I fall off the wagon, Istart gaining weight again,
which this is my story for real.
Then I'm like, okay, we canjournal again.
Oh, I can start counting again,and then I'm back on track,
right.
And so it's really aboutequipping with tools as well,
(32:44):
and not only for the leader butfor the people that are leading
alongside of them, and that'slike the core of it, too, of
what I'm doing is like it'sreally about the organization in
general and, like you said, tothe general health of you, and
being strong is what's going tocarry the team along with you,
right, like a healthy leader inthe very, very, very top.
It's all trickled down.
I know you talked about this,anna Rae, last week you brought
(33:06):
it up.
Ben Larson (33:30):
You, it's all trickled down.
I know you talked about this,anna Rae, last week.
You brought it up.
You're like it starts at thetop.
People ask me when we go to doan engagement, like well, who
should we start with?
Should we start with, like, thegroup of managers or the senior
?
I'm like no it.
And so, uh, I'm gonna ask forsome free advice for our, for
our audience.
But, uh, one of the big topicsthat we talked about is like how
people have conversations butwalk away with different
meanings of that conversation ordifferent takeaways.
And I just want to like diginto that because I think, from
(33:52):
what I remember and this wasconference mode, so my brain was
all over the place but likethis is a major tenant of your
coaching, like make sure thatpeople are having like effective
communications.
And I even think about it in myown journey and you know, call
my relationship with my COo.
You know it's like differentways we communicate.
He would come away thinking Isaid one thing and I was pretty
(34:15):
sure I said something else, andwe have the same conversation.
We just had two differentmeanings that that we walked
away with.
So, like how do you, can you,can you cue us up a little bit
with, with, with that and andhow you think about it, and then
know things that we can workwith to kind of avoid those
situations.
Andrea Baillo (34:34):
I mean, the main thing I would say is, I mean, it
depends on every situation, anyconversation you're having, but
, like, who are you talking toand how are they going to
respond when they hear whatyou're about to say, Right?
And so, like you can't reallylike it's, it's foolish to
actually put yourself in someoneelse's shoes.
I really do think that.
But knowing who you're talkingto and then deciding how to say
(34:55):
something to them, knowing whothey are Right.
So that's how, like, typically,I prep people with those, um,
you know, high stakesconversations with what do you
what?
Who are they what?
What are their motivations,what are they going to?
What are what's going to rubthem, what's going to create
friction and what are you goingto do once you deliver it and
friction has started?
Like, how are we?
(35:16):
What's the worst thing that'sgoing to happen?
What's going to happen next?
And so those are the kind ofconversations I might have with
you around this specificconversation, right, or whatever
it is you're trying to getacross, when you're slowing down
and you're thinking about whatyou're saying and how you're
delivering it, how you'recommunicating.
There's like eight.
I have a little framework forcommunication and different
(35:36):
bricks.
I call them like bricks ofcommunication and what you're
trying to achieve and differentphrasing you can use.
For example, I have a clientright now who you know right
away.
They were like well, we want tomake sure that you know it's.
They kind of are using theseterms like me versus him, and I
was like whoa, whoa, whoa, Likeright there, we need to rephrase
.
If you're going to bring thisup to them, it needs to be like
we, as the company, need thisRight.
(35:57):
So it is a lot of aboutcommunication and understanding
the situation that you're in,and that's what's fun about
coaching is you can actuallythink, you can slow down and
actually like strategize, likeyou're strategizing your
business plan, strategize yourconversations yeah, so okay.
Ben Larson (36:15):
So even if you do those and you try to put
yourself in those conversations,you build that framework.
One of the things that's like avery natural human response to
tough conversation you youmentioned me versus him and like
that's like creates an, anatural opposite opposition.
Even if you put kind of a niceframing to it and say like we as
a company need this and you arenot achieving that, there's a
(36:39):
defensiveness that comes in andwhat we're trying to kind of
ingrain in our company is thatwe're setting like a an
expectation that we're all hereon the same mission.
We're all here to improve eachother.
So like defens while human, isalso like kind of a barrier to
progression, right, and so howdo you work beyond that?
(37:01):
Because it's one thing to say,it's one thing to set the
intentions, but likedefensiveness is just like a
human nature.
And so, coming out of aconversation, you know how do
you measure your success in thatconversation as far as like
communicating what you needed tocommunicate and then also
making sure that like are we ina good place?
Like I delivered some you knowsome direct feedback, like are
(37:24):
you feeling okay about it?
You know it's like, how do youmake sure it was productive?
Andrea Baillo (37:28):
Right, I mean step one.
Like it sounds like you have tohave psychological safety,
right.
That's like the key to havingany type of any type of
courageous conversation withsomeone where you can provide
that kind of feedback and you tobe prepared to get it back
yourself, right.
Like so, if you just to find itreally well, like you need to
have full communication loopsand providing constant feedback
(37:51):
and really asking you know thatperson, if they're, if they're,
if they are being reactive, Imean, where's that discomfort
coming from?
Like what, what?
Where's the fear?
And so I do this thing it'slike fear signature mapping
where I mean for me, I get likered in the face.
This is where you have to equipyour leaders, right.
They have to be strong to leadus on alongside you, like
understanding.
Where that, like I was saying,I get red in the face.
(38:12):
I hear something and it's amatter of you.
You feel the discomfort, youpause, like this person needs to
pause, right, like you can'thelp them through that.
So, like you're doing what youcan do Now they need to do what
they can do.
This is a big part of theownership piece that I talk
about, which is like you cannotcarry that person's problem,
like that is not for you tosolve or for you to like, it's
(38:33):
for you to equip them to solvefor themselves, to give them the
coach Like that person mightneed a coach they might need to
work through and talk about.
Hey, this discomfort comes inwhen I hear X.
Okay, what happens?
What is it emotionally, what isit mentally, what do you feel
physically when that happens?
Can you pause long enough,whether it's seconds or maybe
it's a whole day, and then canyou make a new choice.
(38:54):
When that happens next time,make one choice.
And then can you make a newchoice when that happens next
time, like, make one choice.
And then, okay, great, now I'verepatterned, now I'm expanding
and oh, here comes thediscomfort again.
But what I hear all the timewith clients is they're in loops
and they just they're like, ohwell, that'll happen.
(39:18):
And then I'm just going to getpissed off about it and I'm like
, okay, well, is that?
What it sounds like to me is,you know, the person needs to
understand where this is comfortis coming from and check it and
make a new choice yeah, yeah,the the loops concept is has
been recurring in in my efttherapy with with my wife.
Ben Larson (39:32):
Uh, I don't have to reveal too much, but we have
loops and certain triggers andyou know they can lead to
downward spirals, which arealways fun to manage.
Identifying them is the stepand I find that's what coaching
and therapy has been reallygreat for is just identifying
what those triggers are, whatthose loops are, and like, once
(39:52):
you've named them and identifiedthem, that it's easier not to
fall into them.
Andrea Baillo (39:58):
Yeah, like, for example, the other day I was
just riding, I was going to ridemy bike and I went to check my
tire 30 minutes before the rideand I was on a group ride and so
I check it and it's flat and Iwas like, oh no, so I start
changing it and I cannot get thetire off.
It's so mad.
And I clicked into my mode.
I'm like, oh, I'm distressed,I'm angry, I'm under tight, I'm
under pressure, I'm freaking outand I start my, I go into my
spiral, which is like I doverbal attacks.
(40:20):
So I'm just like verballyattacking myself, right, I'm
like ah son of a bitch, like, ah, get away from me, the dog, the
dog's coming to me.
I'm like get away, get away.
And so anyways happened.
This is what you do when you'reout of gas and you're
(40:40):
frustrated, like, and that is it.
Like, it's fine.
I just made a mistake.
I don't love the way I acted.
Fortunately, nobody saw it,although I just told everybody
about it.
And I now, though, get to likeI have awareness around it, like
that is it.
Like give, and then I givemyself.
You know, everyone deservessome acknowledgement, and some,
like you know, give yourselfsome encouragement Like, okay, I
know what happens next time.
Maybe I'll act a littledifferently, I won't, you know.
So that's like what it's reallyall about.
AnnaRae Grabstein (41:00):
I think what you're saying is making me think
about just this concept of, asleaders, going easy on ourself
too, like we're going to makemistakes People make mistakes
and also we have incredibly highexpectations of ourselves,
first of the people that we workwith, all of it.
And if we can sit back andsomehow say, okay, like I just
fucked up and I can also repairthat, like there is an option to
(41:25):
fix it, either with the peoplewho I fucked up with or with
myself, there's so muchexternally going on around us,
and you talked about what we cancontrol and what we can't, and
that is like the front line.
For me, every day is justconstantly like looking at it as
if it's like a video game oflike moving things from side to
(41:47):
side of is this in my control oris this not so that then, if
it's something that's in mycontrol, then I understand that
okay, this is something for meto grab and go deeper on, and if
it's not in my control, then Ineed to try to not react and
maybe to respond actually, andunderstanding the difference
between those two things andgiving myself the grace to just
(42:09):
be like all right, that issomething that I can't control.
Have I done everything that Ican do and did I show up in a
way that I can be proud of?
That's it kind of that's whatit comes back to.
That's the central of it all.
But there's a lot happening andthere's so many things coming at
us.
Yesterday, when I was at the, Iwas at the hoodie analytics
(42:30):
data day, you know, and we wereall sitting trying to learn
about things that were going onin the cannabis industry and
someone was saying I'm reallydistracted about what's going on
in LA.
It was someone who lives in LAand was thinking about their
kids that were there.
It's just like I can't focus onwhat's right in front of me
because I'm worried aboutimmigration raids in Los Angeles
and my daughter at home, and Iwas like, yeah, that makes sense
(42:54):
.
It's kind of hard to focus ondata when we have all these
other things going on that areoutside of our control and
giving ourselves the grace tolike maybe this isn't the moment
to be really focused on data ifyou have all this other stuff
going on and that's okay.
Andrea Baillo (43:09):
You know, it's funny too because you're
triggering the thought too, likewhen you're in, when you focus
on what's in your control, youcan actually.
Then, like you said, you canactually change things where you
make decisions.
It goes back to accountability,which is something I did want
to touch on here, which is likethen you're staying accountable
for the things that you aresupposed to be, instead of
someone else's problem.
Like I had a employee one timewho came in and she was just
(43:31):
like panicked and stressed outbecause her husband this and
this, and that I was like, canyou do?
You can't do anything for yourhusband's situation, correct, or
can you?
No, I can't.
So why is that on the tabletoday?
Like let's put that one to theside like right and let's deal
with, like yes, the emotionaland blah, blah, blah.
Like yes, that affects you, butlike right now, like that's
with you, which is like lettingpeople carry their own and you
(43:59):
facilitating their growth.
I love that you said that inthe very beginning.
It stuck with me.
That's actually this like ahallmark of it.
That's a core competency of acoach is evoking awareness and
facilitating growth, and so youdoing that for your team is
already like a huge win andprobably why you guys are doing
so well.
AnnaRae Grabstein (44:14):
So it sounds like, andrea, what you're trying
to do is turn all of yourcoaches, that all of your
clients that are teacher, thatare in coaching, into coaches
themselves with their team.
I mean, if you can pass along.
Andrea Baillo (44:27):
Look, yeah, I would say I'm not trying to like
gain, like I don't want peopleto be with me forever, like I
mean I love all my clients andwant to like spend time with
them, but I'm really trying toequip people to be strong on
their own and maintenance, likeyou said.
Yeah, come back, we can haveconversations and keep touching
base.
I still talk to my coach.
I had my coach and we talk onceevery six months or every year
now.
(44:47):
Um, especially when I, when Iquit my job, I was like I need
to talk to you.
Right, so, um, of course, yeah,I'm going to end right there, it
sounds like it'd be nice if youwrote a manual or a book about
this so that you could teachpeople more broadly.
Well, I actually am writing abook right now, but it's not a
(45:08):
leadership book, but it is aboutthe power of perception.
So that'll be queued up nextyear.
Ben Larson (45:18):
Tell us a little bit more about that, Because I
think power perception it soundslike it almost relates to what
we were talking about earlier,about having conversations with
each other and, you know,communicating but being being
understood and the differencebetween the two.
Andrea Baillo (45:29):
Yeah, I think it's going to really channel in
some of my my science nature,which is actually this is more
psychology, and I'm a hard, hardscientist, right, a bi.
Actually, this is morepsychology, and I'm a hard, I'm
a hard scientist, right, abiologist but I've really been
enjoying psychology, and soit'll touch on some of the core
psychological things that happenwhen we make decisions and
judgments, and reactions andresponses, and empathy and
(45:50):
ownership and accountability andinception all these things that
happen when we're when we'reexperiencing, when we're in the
situation of, like, what we'reseeing or how we're reacting, or
what we're saying about whathappened, and so it'll touch on
that, and then it also willshare a lot of stories about me.
So it's going to be a nice,vulnerable moment for me to
share some stories about myexperiences with perception and
(46:12):
reactions and story writing, andthen also put in some real
world examples.
So the ultimate goal of thebook, though, is just to remind
people that, again, like what'smy this is my call to action
here at the end anyway which islike this that you are in your
driver's seat and this, itreminds me, my mom would always
tell me as a kid and I wouldwatching her tell my niece, like
(46:32):
oh, you're upset, you're cryingbecause so-and-so took your
doll or whatever.
Like, don't give them yourpower, don't let them know.
Right, don't give them yourpower.
And I'm like, oh yeah, butactually what she is saying is
exactly that.
Like that you are in charge.
So like, if this is what thatis, then it is, but if it's not,
let it be something else.
Right, like that's the power oflike you get to decide.
(46:55):
Are you going to let this bethis way or are you not?
It's, you know, mel Robbinsdoes this.
You're like, let them let them.
Like you're in charge of yourworld.
Like as soon as when I realizedthat we didn't really touch this
, but part of the coaching thingwas when I that's when I
realized like the unlock from mycoaching, the thing I worked on
(47:19):
, was active listening and umand a fun one.
And what that really did openup for me is when I was
listening.
That's when I started realizingthat I was choosing all these
other stories.
I was like creating things thatweren't really there.
I was just that's my story.
I was like this person's thatway, this is that way, and those
were all limiting me.
And so when I was able torealize that wasn't all true,
which is what I want to share inthis book.
Then that's when the unlockcame and I was able to just I
(47:42):
don't need clarity, right, Idon't.
I don't need certainty, I know,I just need confidence and
courage to take the next stepyeah, so tying, tying that back
to to the cannabis industry.
Ben Larson (47:52):
You know, there there's a lot that is outside of
our control and it's you know.
You can watch the conversationson LinkedIn and things can get
pretty spicy at times amongstdifferent groups and I just
there's so much emotion wrappedup into it and in a lot of cases
, it is our occupationallivelihood that's at stake.
(48:17):
It is our occupationallivelihood that's at stake, and
so you know how, how, how do wehelp leaders rationalize that
show confidently and retaintheir power when so much feels?
Andrea Baillo (48:27):
outside of their control.
Yep.
Well, like I said, I'm justgoing to go back to this clarity
Like you don't get to wait forit, you have to create it.
And how you create it is youstop.
You do have to pause, and I'mnot saying, you know, some
people are like I don't havetime, time, I maybe pause for
two seconds, I don't know howlong, but like you need to pause
(48:47):
and you have to zoom out.
You just have to.
You have to slow down.
You have to face the facts andget real about what's happening
and name it.
This is what's happening.
And then you have to make a planRight, and you have to know
what you'll do when things mightneed to change.
So there's these things calledlike reverse accountability
charts.
So if we're going back to, likethe business concept here,
which is like you don't sharethat with everybody, but you're
going to have to have a plan forwhat it could look like when
(49:08):
things are different, like youcan't just say let's hope it
doesn't go there, like you doneed to create a plan and Like
you do need to create a plan,and then you have to stick to
what works, which means this is,I think, one of one of
cannabis's biggest challenges.
You cannot get distracted byshiny objects.
Stay focused on what you'redoing and what your processes
are and stay the course Right.
(49:29):
This is when you have to reallylean back into your mission,
your vision, your values andyour purpose.
What are you doing?
What are you guys doing?
What does everyone know they'resupposed to be doing?
And like, stay focused on thatand then, ultimately, at the end
of the day, like the whole,what we've been talking about a
lot is like you have to lead byexample.
So you have to eat well, youhave to exercise.
You have to be leading andshowing up like it, you know,
(49:50):
like it matters every day.
I love that.
I.
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:53):
I often tell people that that when they work
with me, we're going to put theskunk on the table and we're
talking about their business,but I think that you're just
talking about this idea ofgetting out of denial, accepting
what the reality is and thentrying to take action in the
ways that you can.
Andrea, this has been anawesome conversation.
(50:14):
It's really great to get tothink bigger about reframing
leadership, and especially incannabis, because I just don't
want it to be forgotten ascompanies are facing their
toughest challenges and biggestopportunities, to remember that
investing in leadership issomething that is so critically
important.
And so we're going to be anally and a voice on this show
(50:35):
and in our content, always forleaders to continue growing.
And as we're wrapping up ourhour, I'm wondering if you could
give us a last call and what isyour final message for our
listeners Any call to actionthat you'd like to leave people
with?
Andrea Baillo (50:51):
So my original call to action.
I feel like I've beaten todeath here, so I'm going to
leave that one for everybody tolet marinate further.
But I think that I think,ultimately, what I want people
to remember too is about this ifyou're not leading with
intention and attention, thenyou're just leading by accident.
Ben Larson (51:12):
I love that.
I love it.
Intention and attention.
Presence is a word that we usea lot in our company.
If you're signing up for ameeting, be there.
Stop multitasking, which hasbecome very easy to do in this
virtual world.
But, andrea, I reallyappreciate it.
(51:35):
Always love connecting with youand just jamming on leadership
and psychology and lookingforward to many conversations to
come.
So thank you for spending thelast hour with us.
Andrea Baillo (51:45):
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
I had such a great time andI'll look forward to seeing you
guys both soon.
Ben Larson (51:50):
All right.
AnnaRae Grabstein (51:50):
Yeah, wonderful Thanks.
Ben Larson (51:53):
All right, anna Rae, are we sending you off and back
into the conference land?
Are you going in more centerednow?
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:00):
Yeah, with lots of intention and attention.
I'm so ready for my day.
How about you?
Ben Larson (52:06):
Excellent.
Yeah, I'm heading up toSacramento, actually for a few
meetings before I get to jet offto vacation.
Next week we have Tiffany Chinon the show.
She is the manager of Death RowRecords and keeping the Snoop
Dogg legacy alive in cannabis,and it's going to be a really
exciting conversation.
Tune in for that, for everyonecommenting on this conversation.
(52:30):
Thank you for watching us live.
If you want to comment on ourshows, do join us live on
LinkedIn.
Otherwise, you catch us on ourpodcast on Apple Spotify,
anywhere you might listen to it.
Please rate and review us.
They're rolling in ever soslowly, but it is helping, so
please, please, leave us reviews.
Thank you to our teams atVirtosa and Wolfmeyer.
(52:52):
We love you guys and, of course, our producer, eric Rossetti.
You're the man.
Stay curious, we love you guys.
And, of course, our producer,eric rosetti.
You're the man.
Stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your
spirits high until next time.
That's the show.
I don't want something to be a certain way.
If I'm frustrated by somethingsomeone's doing, that's not
anything I can do.
The only thing I can do is makemy next action and decide how
I'm going to react to what'shappening.
And so if I can help peopleunlock that and know that
they're in charge, I just am soexcited about that opportunity
for them to unlock whatpotential there is for them.
They don't need to be in aposition they don't want to be
(00:21):
in.
Ben Larson (00:29):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 92 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Grabstein.
We're recording Thursday, june12, 2025.
And I'm getting ready forvacation, so I'm really excited
about that.
Sorry if I piece out halfwaythrough the recording, but we
(00:55):
have Anna Rae to hold us down.
Anna Rae is in Denver after aquick trip to Chicago.
Anna Rae, how's the week going?
How's the conference circuit?
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:00):
Oh, I'm deep in the conference circuit.
I'm good.
Yeah, I'm on the 20th floor ofa hotel in Denver looking out
over the front range.
I've got snowy mountains out mywindow, and right after we're
done recording, I'm going to beheading to the International
Cannabis Bar Association'sannual event to speak to the
lawyers.
And I just came back from theBenzinga Capital Conference
(01:24):
where I was there.
Ben Larson (01:25):
How was Benzinga?
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:26):
Yeah, it was good.
I was talking about M&A, whichis interesting in the space
right now.
The environment's reallyshifted a lot, but Benzinga was
good.
I think that the industry hasseen its fair share of
disappointments over the lastcouple of years, but there was
more optimism, and I think thatthere was optimism coming from
(01:48):
unique places, and there weresome new narratives around the
decline of occasions for alcohol, tobacco and junk food and how
the growth that continues on theconsumer side of cannabis is
something that all thoseindustries are drooling over,
and so if cannabis can justfigure out how to get out of its
own way, um, the if only we hada pathway to mainstream shelves
(02:13):
.
Ben Larson (02:14):
Uh offer cannabis.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:16):
Yes, Well, with that, you know there are
people.
Of course we're also talkingabout hemp derived cannabinoids
and nobody has a crystal.
And there's so much legislationin front of us right now on the
hemp kind of accessibilityslash prohibition spectrum, but
everybody acknowledges that hemphas proved that there are a
(02:39):
tremendous amount of unreachedconsumers in the adult use
medical market and that's hugefor everybody.
No matter how this all shakesout, we know that there's people
that want these products thataren't currently buying them at
dispensaries right now or fromtheir illicit plug down the
street.
They're buying them in otherretail channels and in states
(03:02):
that don't have programs, andall of that in other retail
channels and in states thatdon't have programs and all of
that.
Ben Larson (03:08):
So, yeah, yeah, well , it seems like over time,
that's the direction things aregoing because of the actions
that are being taken in placeslike California, texas and so on
and so forth.
So we'll see.
We'll see what the governmenthas in hold and where they'd
like these transactions to bemade.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:24):
Yeah, and I do have some little bits of data
to share, Took some good notes.
I went to a secondary eventthat happened after Benzinga.
Hoodie Analytics, which is adata platform that we've talked
about on this show before,hosted a private hoodie sessions
event for folks after theconference where they put on
(03:49):
some really great presentationsand invited some other people to
put on presentations as well,including an excellent,
excellent presentation fromFrank Colombo of Viridian
Capital, and I'm going to bereaching out to Frank to get him
to come on.
I want him to share what heshared at that event with our
listenership.
It was a really deep dive intoproduction capacity in New York
(04:15):
and he talked about that.
New York really missed being atop 10 market in 2024, but he
expects that it will be a topfive market in 2025 and that it
will likely hit $4 billion by2030.
And he broke out how he gotthere.
Just to kind of recap who thetop five state legal markets
(04:36):
were in 2024, California tookthe top seat with bringing in
about $4.6 billion.
Topsy was bringing in about$4.6 billion.
Michigan came in next with alittle over $3 billion.
Florida $2.1 billion market and, of note to remind listeners,
(04:57):
it is a medical market and is$2.1 billion, although it's a
very, very open access medicalmarket compared to what we see
in some of the more closed,complex medical environments
like Texas.
Illinois brought in $2 billionand Pennsylvania also a medical
market with a lot of compliancerestrictions on products, came
in at $1.7.
(05:17):
So the prediction from Brindianis that New York will slide
into those top fives by the endof this year.
New York will slide into thosetop fives by the end of this
year and, of note, I think thatTexas would also be a top five
market if it had a moreaccessible program, be it
medical or adult use.
Ben Larson (05:47):
Because we do see that there are two of the top
five states are medical marketsand they're still top five by
revenue, uh, markets.
So it's the.
The disparity betweencalifornia and, or, I should say
, the non-existent disparitybetween california and michigan
is is is notable.
I mean, california is what?
Four times the size of michigan, and everything I've heard
about the michigan market isthat you can go into a place and
get a bag of gummies for like$3.
(06:10):
And I think those same gummiesin California are still, you
know, $18 or $15.
And so, like the math isn'tmathing, like California should
be way out in front and New Yorkshould not be fighting for
fifth place.
Like you know, these aremassive States and massive
markets and, um, that's great,I'm glad we're built, building
(06:31):
multi, multi-billion dollarmarkets, but man, let's uh, I
want to, I want to see a littlebit more uh crunching of the
numbers and just kind ofhighlight how bad these systems
are.
Andrea Baillo (06:47):
Yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:48):
Well, what is the difference between
California and Michigan?
I mean, I think that you'reright that both markets have
massively compressed pricing,but Michigan does not apparently
struggle with the amount ofillicit product in the market
and options for consumersoutside of legal channels.
So there is a perspective thatmost of the transactions in
(07:10):
Michigan are happening in themarket that's being reflected in
these numbers, whereas inCalifornia we're fighting
against a lot of other things.
So, yeah, a few other kind oftop line data points that I
learned at the hoodie event isthat while prices are down and
top line revenue in some ofthese states is declining, unit
(07:33):
sales are up.
People know this.
That means that people are notconsuming less cannabis, they're
just consuming cheaper cannabis.
And also, you know, in these newstates and overall, in the
product mix and the assortment,flour is still the biggest
category, but it is slowlydeclining and it's losing its
(07:57):
spots to growth categories,namely the pre-roll category,
which is growing incredibly fastand I think it shows, you know,
consumers just don't know howto roll joints.
They don't want to roll joints.
Convenience is something thatis really meaningful to people.
They want to move fast.
If they want to smoke, it'sgreat to be able to just buy a
(08:17):
pre-roll and in the pre-rollcategory in particular, infused
pre-rolls are just gainingground at a much faster pace
than non-infused pre-rolls,showing that consumers are
really drawn towards higherpotency products per use, for
better or for worse.
Yeah, those are my data updatesand industry updates from my
(08:43):
time on the road the last fewdays excellent.
Ben Larson (08:46):
Well, thank you for for doing the work and being out
there.
Uh, it's been a little bit ofFOMO here on my side not not
being in Chicago, denver forboth.
Whatever you're doing, thelawyer thing and and Canra
happening at the same time, andthen and then Bevanette as well
in New York um, but I have beenable to be home and be a little
(09:07):
bit more same time, and thenBevanette as well in New York,
but I have been able to be homeand be a little bit more
introspective and try to free upmy plate as I depart this
weekend for Japan.
So, yeah, excited about that,but also really excited about
this conversation that we'rehaving today with our guest and
kind of digging into theleadership.
I think we queued up a lot ofgood topics last week in our
one-on-one and I'm excited todive in with Andrea.
(09:29):
So should we get her on?
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:31):
Yeah, let's do it, I'll queue her up.
So Andrea Bilo is a scientistturned coach and founder of
Rooted for Success.
She's had leadership rolesthroughout her career, spanning
work as a cancer biologist incraft beer and in really
important executive level rolesin R&D and cannabis, both as the
(09:51):
chief scientific officer atOpen Book and at leading R&D at
Green Thrum Industries.
Now in her career, she helpsexecutives and organizations
thrive in high pressure,fast-changing environments, and
her coaching centers on clarity,structure and human connection
to drive performance andprogress.
So we are really excited towelcome Andrea to the show.
(10:14):
Welcome, andrea.
Andrea Baillo (10:16):
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you
guys.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:18):
Awesome.
Well, so let's just jump in.
Throughout the conversationsthat we have on the show, we
talk often about how cannabis isbasically in a full-blown
crisis.
Constantly there is financialpressure, there's whiplash of
regulation.
A lot of companies have moralein the gutter.
So I think we should just startby what your take on it is.
(10:41):
Do you think that leaders arefailing themselves and their
teams?
Andrea Baillo (10:50):
I mean, I don't think everybody's failing
themselves.
I think a lot of people aresucceeding in their own way, and
then success is defined by you,as it is anyway.
But yeah, I think thatultimately, people are failing
themselves, especially ifthey're sitting around trying to
chase certainty.
So if we're sitting here tryingto be a hundred percent certain
before we take action or beforewe make a decision, then you're
100% certain that I'm 100%certain that you're going to
stay stuck.
(11:10):
So we just need like 30%clarity, a little, you know, 30%
certainty, and then 100%courage and confidence, and then
you can go.
Ben Larson (11:19):
You know, operating in this space I've tuned myself
to.
I don't know if I've had tolike trick myself or convince
myself, but it's like, oh, weget the opportunity to work
through these challengingproblems every day, and I've
always associated with being aproblem solver, right, like
that's just kind of what.
If you ask my wife, I'm toopredestined to do that and so
(11:46):
I'm approaching that every day.
But like, what kind of?
What kind of tools should we,as leaders, be outfitting
ourselves to kind of work inthis chaotic environment?
And like, how do we come out ofthis every week, kind of with
that positive outlook?
Andrea Baillo (12:02):
Mm, hmm, well, I mean, especially if you're
thinking about it on a weeklybasis, I mean instantly.
I just go to like a scorecard,right, and it's interesting, a
lot of people will usescorecards to look at different
metrics, especially financially,looking at money and things
that are very tangible.
But behaviors are metrics thatpeople should be tracking as
well, and so, like, the workthat I do is a lot is heavily
focused on behavior basedmethods, and so knowing how your
(12:26):
people are showing up,equipping them to be resilient
meaning they can build trust,meaning they can communicate
effectively, meaning they showup with integrity, they're
competent, like all of thosethings need to be in place and
those things should be trackedas well, like alongside the
metrics of how much revenue dowe make this, you know, this
month, or how much their sales,or how much do we close or open.
(12:47):
So I wonder, I mean, for youguys, is that something you guys
?
You guys keep in mind whenyou're?
You know problem solving, andare you thinking about behaviors
beyond just the numbers?
Ben Larson (12:58):
Behaviors beyond the numbers.
I guess the way that wegenerally think about is we have
these like rules of engagement.
You know we have our habitsthat we've established as a
company.
You know we have ways that wecommunicate with each other,
ways we show up, and we'veactually penned all of this, so
it's like what started out as aleadership agreement ways that
(13:18):
we show up in a meeting andsupport each other but also like
are very direct and sharp withfeedback.
We've actually expanded thatand turn it into an entire code
of conduct for our entirecompany and it's a way for us to
ensure that we're showing upproperly.
But I can't honestly say thatwe have a good method of
measuring it retroactively.
(13:40):
Right.
It's like, okay, we set thestandard, we can call each other
on it if it's not, if we're notup to to those established
guidelines.
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:47):
But I can't say that we we've established
like a metric based system to tomeasure ourselves to prioritize
, slowing down to track thingsthat aren't already so clearly
quantifiable, like cogs andrevenue, and that there is
(14:13):
sometimes, like I see through,like performance management
moments that people willsometimes quantify levels of
engagement and quantify certaindifferent types of leadership,
but I don't see it happening,certainly on a weekly basis, and
I think we're lucky if ithappens on an annual basis in a
really substantive way In mostcompanies.
(14:35):
There are unique unicorns inall of it, for sure.
Andrea Baillo (14:39):
I mean.
I think that's interesting,because that is one of the
reasons why I also think peopleare failing themselves is not
paying attention to thosebehaviors, because that is what
drives your culture right.
It's not what we.
It's not.
Culture is not a vibe, right?
It's what we.
It's a system of behaviors thatare, that are supported and
nurtured.
And so, without the feedbackloops and without growing your
(14:59):
people and equipping them tohave the skills to manage how
they're responding to whatthey're hearing, you know how to
correctly communicate and beable to have healthy, courageous
conversations with people.
The rest of it really doesn't,isn't going to work anyways.
So it is like I really viewleadership as the backbone of
(15:20):
any business, and I think that'sone thing that's often
neglected and does deserve anumber on the scorecard.
AnnaRae Grabstein (15:25):
So leadership , like it's a funny thing
because throughout my life, whenI was younger, people would
tell me that I was a naturalleader, and I think that I had
this thing in my mind, that Ithought that it was something
that was.
You either had it or you didn't.
And as I've grown in my career,I see it very differently and
there are natural tendenciesthat I have and that other
(15:47):
people have that could beconstrued as leadership.
But I see now, as I've grown asa leader, that leadership is
something that I need toconstantly work on and invest in
and check myself on, and I'dlike to hear from you, as a
coach, what it means to work onleadership.
Andrea Baillo (16:06):
Yeah, I mean it's a whole set, right, like I mean
, ultimately, at the end of theday, leadership is no longer
about you.
Leadership is about other people.
So I think that's the firstthing really you have to
understand when you step intoleadership.
I think, people, it's notsomething like you can like I've
read a million books aboutleadership I'm sure you guys
have as well, right, so you canread about it, you can have the
theory of it, but leadership issomething that you learn through
(16:27):
experience and it's somethingthat has to be practiced, like.
You really have to get thepractical sense of it, and so
leadership is an accumulation ofthe knowledge and experiences
that you have, but it really isdependent on how you show up and
what you're saying and whatyou're thinking, and you have to
then be very reflective.
(16:48):
So, for me, the greatestleadership skill is awareness
and reflection, so being able tosit back, hear, understand what
you're going through, what'syou're in your control, what's
not, and then moving forwardwith that, zooming out right,
Accepting the things as the waythey are and staying with what
you can.
Does that, how does that?
How does that sound for you?
Ben Larson (17:08):
I, I, I.
I mean, it resonates a lot withme.
You know, I, I find myself, andAnna Rae and I are are similar
in.
The fact is, like we what wasthe term we were discussing
before the show Middle?
AnnaRae Grabstein (17:20):
Like we were, we're, we're middles.
Ben Larson (17:23):
Anna Rae, can you define middle for us?
Because I just heard thismorning and I was a little
offended before I got thedefinition.
AnnaRae Grabstein (17:30):
Yeah, I have to call out Andrew Lowitz, who
was termed a middle at a dinnerthat I was at this week.
And then he said, no, Anna Raeis a middle.
And I thought what the heck isa middle?
That sounds sexual and I'muncomfortable.
So I turned to chat GPT, whohelped me understand that being
a middle is about someone whosits in the middle of group
(17:52):
dynamics and often helps moveconversations, resolve conflict
and bridges ideas.
It's like a go between andhelps people find common ground.
That's what a middle is.
Ben Larson (18:03):
Yeah, so in that light, you know what I, what I
pride myself in is my focus onensuring that I'm a facilitator
of growth for my team members.
Right, like, how do I help themachieve what they want to
achieve?
How do I help them all align toallow the company to achieve
what they want to achieve?
And that's how I've chosen torun my company.
(18:26):
Right, that's, uh, the thebrilliance of the team is is
like all these differentconstituents like come together.
This can also be contrasted withtake some famous leaders out
there that have a differentstyle.
Right, you have, like stevejobs, steve Jobs and Elon Musk
set aside, whatever you thinkabout them because of recent
politics, but you know, they Iprobably wouldn't define them as
(18:51):
middle type of leaders.
They are more the visionaries,the ones that have.
They're just, they're dead seton what the future needs to look
like, and it can't happen fastenough, and they're going to
drive their team super hard, andso we see success in like a
number of different ways, andI'm wondering how.
Where I struggle sometimes ishow to rationalize that, how to
(19:13):
take pieces of both, or maybeit's just settling in and
realizing that every leader isdifferent and that you just have
to be confident in that Likewhat's the best way for a leader
to rationalize that, one thatI'll raise my hand right May
suffer occasionally fromimposter syndrome.
Andrea Baillo (19:30):
Yeah, I hear that .
I'll kind of approach the firstpart, which is like, do I need
to be visionary?
Do I need to be integrating andleading?
There's like, if there's booksand I think it's Gina Wickman's
book that talks aboutintegrators and visionaries, and
every company needs both.
And so in small startups, it'sGina Wickman's book that talks
about integrators andvisionaries and every company
(19:51):
needs both.
And so in small startups it'sreally challenging for a leader
Like that's where I think I seea lot of struggles is more in
the solopreneurs and the really,you know, small startup
companies is where there's a lotof a lot of friction and a lot
of challenges and pressurebecause you're trying to operate
in places that maybe you're notthe most comfortable, in places
that aren't you don't yournatural gifted strengths and
talents.
And so in your case, I thinklike it's perfectly fine to have
, right You're, if you're theintegrator and you're the one
(20:12):
leading the business and movingforward, everybody, and then
someone else is the visionarythat's coming up with the 10
different ideas, and theneveryone and then everyone's
making sure that only movingforward with one at a time,
right.
Does that address what you justsaid?
Because then you talked aboutimposter syndrome, which
managing imposter syndromereally just comes with being
confident, right.
That's where, again, I'm goingto lean into the backbone of how
(20:36):
I even got into coaching andhow I believe and how I live my
life is through perception andlike what we see, right, how we
react to what we see, and thenthe story we tell ourselves
after, how we react to what wesee, and then the story we tell
ourselves after, and so that'swhat you're going through right
there.
You're telling yourself a storythat you're not good enough or
that you're not in the rightrole, or you know, whatever it
is that you're thinking andthat's completely like, that's
(20:58):
with you, like that's the thingyou get to own and you get to
carry and you get to change andno one else is going to do that
for you.
AnnaRae Grabstein (21:05):
You brought up getting into coaching and I
think it's really interestingbecause your background has been
at some really great companiesand that I think are really well
respected in the cannabis spaceboth GTI and Open Book and
before that doing stuff in craftbeer and in biology and now
you're doing coaching and I'mwondering what it was that took
(21:28):
place in in your career that gotme to a, got you to a place
that that you wanted to make ashift and to reinvent what you
were doing.
Andrea Baillo (21:39):
Yeah, that's a good question and it's hard.
I don't know if I try andanswer it briefly, um, cause I
don't want to go into too longof it all goes back into time,
right?
So I've spent I spent the lastthis last spring actually doing
a ton of re-examining my lifeand how I got to where I am and
looking at these quote unquoteblue dot moments and how they
connect and what formativemoments led me to here.
(22:00):
And the short and long of it isthat I was always going to be
here Like this is where I wasgoing to end up.
I'm also what I consider anatural born leader.
To be here Like this is where Iwas going to end up.
I'm also what I consider anatural born leader.
I remember my first backpackingtrip when we went to Pictured
Rocks in Michigan and I wasasking my friends about it Like
hey, how did that go, do youremember?
And they're like you sent me alist, you told me what to buy,
you told me where to buy it, youplanned the whole 42 mile hike
(22:23):
Da, da, da, da, da da.
Like we didn't make it.
We obviously people werebruised and injured and losing
toenails and and I ran to likethe sheriff and like or you know
, not a sheriff but like ran tofind a ranger and got us rescued
.
So, like, I was always in thatleadership position.
And then, as I became older thatwas when I was like in my young
twenties, as I was evolvingthrough life I started to see
(22:46):
that, like I went backpackingthrough South America by myself,
I started to find myself invery uncomfortable situations.
I lived in a camper on BLM land, which is Bureau of Land
Management, without runningwater or electricity for six
months in Wyoming.
And, like, I put myself inthose places and, like, through
backpacking and taking extremehikes and exploring, because, a
(23:08):
I like to learn, but B what I'velearned is that discomfort is
my playground.
I find great joy there andgreat comfort actually, and I
think that that's what I want tohelp share with other people is
being in that space gives me somuch growth and unlocks so much
potential that even in this day, right now so, for example, you
just said I worked right OBX, Iworked at GTI.
(23:30):
I left OBX without a game plan.
I left my job and was like Idon't know how I'm going to make
money.
I don't know how long I'm goingto be without income.
I don't see the plan ahead, Idon't see the road, and those
are the kinds of things that Ifind that, when I do, I end up
unlocking something that is whatI was supposed to be, where I'm
supposed to be going, right.
(23:50):
I always, when you get in thatpanic mode, I'm always like I
will find out why this is allhappening later, and so I know
this kind of sounds a little woowoo maybe.
I hope not, but at the end ofthe day, what I've learned is
that I am in my driver's seat.
I choose what is happening, andso when I don't want something
to be a certain way, if I'mfrustrated by something
(24:12):
someone's doing, that's notanything I can do.
The only thing I can do is makemy next action and decide what
I'm going to, how I'm going toreact to what's happening, and
so if I can help people unlockthat and know that they're in
charge, I just am so excitedabout that opportunity for them
to unlock what potential thereis for them.
They don't need to be in aposition they don't want to be
in, and so that is why I'm doingwhat I'm doing, why I'm doing
(24:34):
it in cannabis.
I'll wrap up here.
I don't want to occupy the micfor too long, but why I'm doing
cannabis is that is where I amvery, you know, I have a great
passion for the plant.
I love as the scientist insideof me, I love the multifaceted
approach of cannabinoids in thebody and how it can interact
with a lot of differentreceptors, and I think that
there's a huge potential for itto be very beneficial for, you
(24:54):
know, not only these common needstates, but also in
therapeutics, and so that's whyI want to like really help this
industry as well.
Ben Larson (25:01):
You're reminding me of a podcast I just listened to
last night.
It was this conversationbetween two of my friends,
actually Jason Gaddis and JohnO'Connor, and one's like a
relationship coach and one'sactually a performance coach,
and they were talking about thathow in high intensity or crisis
situations, it's really hardfor anyone to see like long-term
(25:27):
, to see down the road, to beable to create the space and the
time to design the path forward, and so I love the fact that
you just threw yourself into thedeep end.
It's like now I have, now Ihave to figure out a path.
But one of the interestingtools that I pulled out of that
conversation was and how thecoaching helped was like being
able to separate someone fromthe timeline.
(25:49):
It's like like you have to beable to do that in order to
create the path forward and toidentify the steps that you need
to take.
But it really does take a coachto be able to help you separate
yourself from the timeline.
Maybe it's weed, maybe weed isyour coach.
But yeah, andrea, I'm curiousis how do you best position
(26:11):
someone?
Or when is someone ready forcoaching?
You know, like, how do they getmentally prepared for that?
Or you know, it's like Iactually find myself in this.
You know I'll listen to a bunchof podcasts, I'll have a bunch
of conversations, but toactually commit to something
like how do you know when it'sthe right time?
Andrea Baillo (26:29):
That's amazing question question, because that
is my greatest challenge.
I find that leaders are veryaware that there's a problem.
I don't think they can pinpointthe problem exactly as much as
they think they can, becausethey're just seeing it from.
You know they're, they're justseeing it right now and haven't
really necessarily dove intoexactly what it is.
Anyways, the question was sohow do I get people ready?
(26:52):
The thing is, people need to bein quite a bit of pain,
unfortunately.
You really have to be.
You honestly have to be inenough pain typically for
someone to reach out and lookfor help.
I think people who are proactive, potentially like both of you,
right who are very engaged andvery self-aware and already
practicing reflection, mightpick this up, as you would
(27:13):
anything else, um, like maybe atherapist, right, you go, right,
you're doing EFT therapy withright and you're, so you might
be one who will go into iteasier.
But people who, um, the moreresistors, like they are going
to need to be in a seriousamount of pain.
Um, and that is what's going todrive them to to start working
on this and what prepares themfor it.
How about this, let me?
How about like, let's thinkabout weight loss or something
(27:36):
else, or trying to get in shaperight, like it's the same thing.
Right, like you need someone.
Right, you go get a, you gohire someone to help you.
Like there's, it's the samereason.
Someone doesn't start to loseweight or start a diet?
Right, there's this fear,there's this.
I don't want to accept that.
This is.
I don't want to accept thetruth.
I don't want to have to do thework.
So all these things like get intheir way.
Right, I'm too busy, like yousaid.
(27:57):
Oh, I have to count the numbers, so these are what matter.
Right, this doesn't.
So there's all of theseconstraints and limiting beliefs
that are holding people backfrom getting the opportunity to
talk to someone, to have asounding board, to actually get
the thoughts out of their heads.
Because one of the coolestthings that I've seen with
people is when they starttalking and I'm like okay, and
then I reflect back what I hearthey say.
(28:18):
They're like no, and I'm likeoh, so they're like huh, I don't
even know how to articulatewhat is actually in my head, and
that can be so amazing.
I've seen so much growth frompeople when they're really
getting into their head andpulling it out to verbalizing it
.
Do you guys have any?
AnnaRae Grabstein (28:33):
similar experiences?
Oh, absolutely, I think thatthe perception of how people are
being kind of processed bytheir teams is often very
different from the way thatpeople hope to be showing up for
them.
And I think that what you'retouching on is that working on
ourselves as leaders is not justa nice to have.
(28:54):
It's something that's reallycore to leading a company, to
moving forward in your career,even if you're not in a place
that you're leading yet.
And in companies we have thisstructure of corporate
governance with boards and theconcept that a board is there to
sort of be a check and balanceto an executive.
(29:16):
And my good friend, melanieCurtis, who we had on at the
beginning of the year, who is apeak performance coach herself
she talks about building apersonal board of directors and
I really love this concept and Ithink that a personal board of
directors and I really love thisconcept and I think that a
personal board of directors hasmany roles on it, and a coach is
one of those roles.
If you choose to go and have acoach, that is more of a someone
(29:39):
that you're actually paying tohelp you, and it's also mentors,
it's advisors, it's peers, it'speople that we can turn to when
we're faced with the hardestthings, who we are asking to
give us true feedback and tohold a mirror to ourselves.
And I think it's a reallybeautiful concept of this idea
(30:00):
of who is our personal board ofdirectors and for people to be
thinking about it and evenputting some structure around it
and I certainly have it in mymind of who some of my personal
board of directors is.
I say, ben, you're on mypersonal board of directors.
Ben Larson (30:14):
I was going to say Anna Rae, you're officially on
my board of directors.
AnnaRae Grabstein (30:18):
Yeah, but what I haven't done is been
courageous enough to actuallytell my personal board of
directors that they're on it.
I know who they are, but I'mnot sure that they know who they
are on it.
Like, I know who they are, butI'm not sure that they know who
they are, and and and I'm not ina crisis of my own personal
leadership, but but I want towork on myself all the time, and
so I hear from you, andrea,that that many times, like
(30:40):
you're, you're meeting withpeople when they are in that
crisis moment.
But but isn't it good forpeople to raise their hand when
they're in a good place to andbe like, get me stronger.
Like I just got a personaltrainer because I want to have
bigger muscles, I'm like, okay,I'm like, I'm ready to.
Ben Larson (30:55):
Like I want, I want, I want to, you know, my arms to
look better and feel stronger,but it's not because I'm like
I'm in a crisis no-transcriptposition at the top right and
(31:43):
and that's true in business,that's true in your relationship
like you just have to berelentless with, with self
improvement in all these aspects, and waiting for the crisis is
probably it's the most obvioustime, but it's also like the
most painful and the worst time.
Andrea Baillo (31:59):
You know, interestingly, that's like how
coaching usually goes to is likeI start off with someone we
meet every week for like thefirst two months.
Then it goes to bi weekly andsuddenly it's weekly, you know
it's monthly.
And then it stretches out towhere it's like okay, great,
like we're you're on amaintenance, exactly Right.
You're checking in every fewmonths like, okay, things are
(32:24):
going well or something pops up.
Hey, can I have a conversation?
Sure, let's let.
What's what's new?
But it's really about like ayou're like thinking about
weight loss or something likeright, I know how to count
calories, I can.
If I fall off the wagon, Istart gaining weight again,
which this is my story for real.
Then I'm like, okay, we canjournal again.
Oh, I can start counting again,and then I'm back on track,
right.
And so it's really aboutequipping with tools as well,
(32:44):
and not only for the leader butfor the people that are leading
alongside of them, and that'slike the core of it, too, of
what I'm doing is like it'sreally about the organization in
general and, like you said, tothe general health of you, and
being strong is what's going tocarry the team along with you,
right, like a healthy leader inthe very, very, very top.
It's all trickled down.
I know you talked about this,anna Rae, last week you brought
(33:06):
it up.
Ben Larson (33:30):
You, it's all trickled down.
I know you talked about this,anna Rae, last week.
You brought it up.
You're like it starts at thetop.
People ask me when we go to doan engagement, like well, who
should we start with?
Should we start with, like, thegroup of managers or the senior
?
I'm like no it.
And so, uh, I'm gonna ask forsome free advice for our, for
our audience.
But, uh, one of the big topicsthat we talked about is like how
people have conversations butwalk away with different
meanings of that conversation ordifferent takeaways.
And I just want to like diginto that because I think, from
(33:52):
what I remember and this wasconference mode, so my brain was
all over the place but likethis is a major tenant of your
coaching, like make sure thatpeople are having like effective
communications.
And I even think about it in myown journey and you know, call
my relationship with my COo.
You know it's like differentways we communicate.
He would come away thinking Isaid one thing and I was pretty
(34:15):
sure I said something else, andwe have the same conversation.
We just had two differentmeanings that that we walked
away with.
So, like how do you, can you,can you cue us up a little bit
with, with, with that and andhow you think about it, and then
know things that we can workwith to kind of avoid those
situations.
Andrea Baillo (34:34):
I mean, the main thing I would say is, I mean, it
depends on every situation, anyconversation you're having, but
, like, who are you talking toand how are they going to
respond when they hear whatyou're about to say, Right?
And so, like you can't reallylike it's, it's foolish to
actually put yourself in someoneelse's shoes.
I really do think that.
But knowing who you're talkingto and then deciding how to say
(34:55):
something to them, knowing whothey are Right.
So that's how, like, typically,I prep people with those, um,
you know, high stakesconversations with what do you
what?
Who are they what?
What are their motivations,what are they going to?
What are what's going to rubthem, what's going to create
friction and what are you goingto do once you deliver it and
friction has started?
Like, how are we?
(35:16):
What's the worst thing that'sgoing to happen?
What's going to happen next?
And so those are the kind ofconversations I might have with
you around this specificconversation, right, or whatever
it is you're trying to getacross, when you're slowing down
and you're thinking about whatyou're saying and how you're
delivering it, how you'recommunicating.
There's like eight.
I have a little framework forcommunication and different
(35:36):
bricks.
I call them like bricks ofcommunication and what you're
trying to achieve and differentphrasing you can use.
For example, I have a clientright now who you know right
away.
They were like well, we want tomake sure that you know it's.
They kind of are using theseterms like me versus him, and I
was like whoa, whoa, whoa, Likeright there, we need to rephrase
.
If you're going to bring thisup to them, it needs to be like
we, as the company, need thisRight.
(35:57):
So it is a lot of aboutcommunication and understanding
the situation that you're in,and that's what's fun about
coaching is you can actuallythink, you can slow down and
actually like strategize, likeyou're strategizing your
business plan, strategize yourconversations yeah, so okay.
Ben Larson (36:15):
So even if you do those and you try to put
yourself in those conversations,you build that framework.
One of the things that's like avery natural human response to
tough conversation you youmentioned me versus him and like
that's like creates an, anatural opposite opposition.
Even if you put kind of a niceframing to it and say like we as
a company need this and you arenot achieving that, there's a
(36:39):
defensiveness that comes in andwhat we're trying to kind of
ingrain in our company is thatwe're setting like a an
expectation that we're all hereon the same mission.
We're all here to improve eachother.
So like defens while human, isalso like kind of a barrier to
progression, right, and so howdo you work beyond that?
(37:01):
Because it's one thing to say,it's one thing to set the
intentions, but likedefensiveness is just like a
human nature.
And so, coming out of aconversation, you know how do
you measure your success in thatconversation as far as like
communicating what you needed tocommunicate and then also
making sure that like are we ina good place?
Like I delivered some you knowsome direct feedback, like are
(37:24):
you feeling okay about it?
You know it's like, how do youmake sure it was productive?
Andrea Baillo (37:28):
Right, I mean step one.
Like it sounds like you have tohave psychological safety,
right.
That's like the key to havingany type of any type of
courageous conversation withsomeone where you can provide
that kind of feedback and you tobe prepared to get it back
yourself, right.
Like so, if you just to find itreally well, like you need to
have full communication loopsand providing constant feedback
(37:51):
and really asking you know thatperson, if they're, if they're,
if they are being reactive, Imean, where's that discomfort
coming from?
Like what, what?
Where's the fear?
And so I do this thing it'slike fear signature mapping
where I mean for me, I get likered in the face.
This is where you have to equipyour leaders, right.
They have to be strong to leadus on alongside you, like
understanding.
Where that, like I was saying,I get red in the face.
(38:12):
I hear something and it's amatter of you.
You feel the discomfort, youpause, like this person needs to
pause, right, like you can'thelp them through that.
So, like you're doing what youcan do Now they need to do what
they can do.
This is a big part of theownership piece that I talk
about, which is like you cannotcarry that person's problem,
like that is not for you tosolve or for you to like, it's
(38:33):
for you to equip them to solvefor themselves, to give them the
coach Like that person mightneed a coach they might need to
work through and talk about.
Hey, this discomfort comes inwhen I hear X.
Okay, what happens?
What is it emotionally, what isit mentally, what do you feel
physically when that happens?
Can you pause long enough,whether it's seconds or maybe
it's a whole day, and then canyou make a new choice.
(38:54):
When that happens next time,make one choice.
And then can you make a newchoice when that happens next
time, like, make one choice.
And then, okay, great, now I'verepatterned, now I'm expanding
and oh, here comes thediscomfort again.
But what I hear all the timewith clients is they're in loops
and they just they're like, ohwell, that'll happen.
(39:18):
And then I'm just going to getpissed off about it and I'm like
, okay, well, is that?
What it sounds like to me is,you know, the person needs to
understand where this is comfortis coming from and check it and
make a new choice yeah, yeah,the the loops concept is has
been recurring in in my efttherapy with with my wife.
Ben Larson (39:32):
Uh, I don't have to reveal too much, but we have
loops and certain triggers andyou know they can lead to
downward spirals, which arealways fun to manage.
Identifying them is the stepand I find that's what coaching
and therapy has been reallygreat for is just identifying
what those triggers are, whatthose loops are, and like, once
(39:52):
you've named them and identifiedthem, that it's easier not to
fall into them.
Andrea Baillo (39:58):
Yeah, like, for example, the other day I was
just riding, I was going to ridemy bike and I went to check my
tire 30 minutes before the rideand I was on a group ride and so
I check it and it's flat and Iwas like, oh no, so I start
changing it and I cannot get thetire off.
It's so mad.
And I clicked into my mode.
I'm like, oh, I'm distressed,I'm angry, I'm under tight, I'm
under pressure, I'm freaking outand I start my, I go into my
spiral, which is like I doverbal attacks.
(40:20):
So I'm just like verballyattacking myself, right, I'm
like ah son of a bitch, like, ah, get away from me, the dog, the
dog's coming to me.
I'm like get away, get away.
And so anyways happened.
This is what you do when you'reout of gas and you're
(40:40):
frustrated, like, and that is it.
Like, it's fine.
I just made a mistake.
I don't love the way I acted.
Fortunately, nobody saw it,although I just told everybody
about it.
And I now, though, get to likeI have awareness around it, like
that is it.
Like give, and then I givemyself.
You know, everyone deservessome acknowledgement, and some,
like you know, give yourselfsome encouragement Like, okay, I
know what happens next time.
Maybe I'll act a littledifferently, I won't, you know.
So that's like what it's reallyall about.
AnnaRae Grabstein (41:00):
I think what you're saying is making me think
about just this concept of, asleaders, going easy on ourself
too, like we're going to makemistakes People make mistakes
and also we have incredibly highexpectations of ourselves,
first of the people that we workwith, all of it.
And if we can sit back andsomehow say, okay, like I just
fucked up and I can also repairthat, like there is an option to
(41:25):
fix it, either with the peoplewho I fucked up with or with
myself, there's so muchexternally going on around us,
and you talked about what we cancontrol and what we can't, and
that is like the front line.
For me, every day is justconstantly like looking at it as
if it's like a video game oflike moving things from side to
(41:47):
side of is this in my control oris this not so that then, if
it's something that's in mycontrol, then I understand that
okay, this is something for meto grab and go deeper on, and if
it's not in my control, then Ineed to try to not react and
maybe to respond actually, andunderstanding the difference
between those two things andgiving myself the grace to just
(42:09):
be like all right, that issomething that I can't control.
Have I done everything that Ican do and did I show up in a
way that I can be proud of?
That's it kind of that's whatit comes back to.
That's the central of it all.
But there's a lot happening andthere's so many things coming at
us.
Yesterday, when I was at the, Iwas at the hoodie analytics
(42:30):
data day, you know, and we wereall sitting trying to learn
about things that were going onin the cannabis industry and
someone was saying I'm reallydistracted about what's going on
in LA.
It was someone who lives in LAand was thinking about their
kids that were there.
It's just like I can't focus onwhat's right in front of me
because I'm worried aboutimmigration raids in Los Angeles
and my daughter at home, and Iwas like, yeah, that makes sense
(42:54):
.
It's kind of hard to focus ondata when we have all these
other things going on that areoutside of our control and
giving ourselves the grace tolike maybe this isn't the moment
to be really focused on data ifyou have all this other stuff
going on and that's okay.
Andrea Baillo (43:09):
You know, it's funny too because you're
triggering the thought too, likewhen you're in, when you focus
on what's in your control, youcan actually.
Then, like you said, you canactually change things where you
make decisions.
It goes back to accountability,which is something I did want
to touch on here, which is likethen you're staying accountable
for the things that you aresupposed to be, instead of
someone else's problem.
Like I had a employee one timewho came in and she was just
(43:31):
like panicked and stressed outbecause her husband this and
this, and that I was like, canyou do?
You can't do anything for yourhusband's situation, correct, or
can you?
No, I can't.
So why is that on the tabletoday?
Like let's put that one to theside like right and let's deal
with, like yes, the emotionaland blah, blah, blah.
Like yes, that affects you, butlike right now, like that's
with you, which is like lettingpeople carry their own and you
(43:59):
facilitating their growth.
I love that you said that inthe very beginning.
It stuck with me.
That's actually this like ahallmark of it.
That's a core competency of acoach is evoking awareness and
facilitating growth, and so youdoing that for your team is
already like a huge win andprobably why you guys are doing
so well.
AnnaRae Grabstein (44:14):
So it sounds like, andrea, what you're trying
to do is turn all of yourcoaches, that all of your
clients that are teacher, thatare in coaching, into coaches
themselves with their team.
I mean, if you can pass along.
Andrea Baillo (44:27):
Look, yeah, I would say I'm not trying to like
gain, like I don't want peopleto be with me forever, like I
mean I love all my clients andwant to like spend time with
them, but I'm really trying toequip people to be strong on
their own and maintenance, likeyou said.
Yeah, come back, we can haveconversations and keep touching
base.
I still talk to my coach.
I had my coach and we talk onceevery six months or every year
now.
(44:47):
Um, especially when I, when Iquit my job, I was like I need
to talk to you.
Right, so, um, of course, yeah,I'm going to end right there, it
sounds like it'd be nice if youwrote a manual or a book about
this so that you could teachpeople more broadly.
Well, I actually am writing abook right now, but it's not a
(45:08):
leadership book, but it is aboutthe power of perception.
So that'll be queued up nextyear.
Ben Larson (45:18):
Tell us a little bit more about that, Because I
think power perception it soundslike it almost relates to what
we were talking about earlier,about having conversations with
each other and, you know,communicating but being being
understood and the differencebetween the two.
Andrea Baillo (45:29):
Yeah, I think it's going to really channel in
some of my my science nature,which is actually this is more
psychology, and I'm a hard, hardscientist, right, a bi.
Actually, this is morepsychology, and I'm a hard, I'm
a hard scientist, right, abiologist but I've really been
enjoying psychology, and soit'll touch on some of the core
psychological things that happenwhen we make decisions and
judgments, and reactions andresponses, and empathy and
(45:50):
ownership and accountability andinception all these things that
happen when we're when we'reexperiencing, when we're in the
situation of, like, what we'reseeing or how we're reacting, or
what we're saying about whathappened, and so it'll touch on
that, and then it also willshare a lot of stories about me.
So it's going to be a nice,vulnerable moment for me to
share some stories about myexperiences with perception and
(46:12):
reactions and story writing, andthen also put in some real
world examples.
So the ultimate goal of thebook, though, is just to remind
people that, again, like what'smy this is my call to action
here at the end anyway which islike this that you are in your
driver's seat and this, itreminds me, my mom would always
tell me as a kid and I wouldwatching her tell my niece, like
(46:32):
oh, you're upset, you're cryingbecause so-and-so took your
doll or whatever.
Like, don't give them yourpower, don't let them know.
Right, don't give them yourpower.
And I'm like, oh yeah, butactually what she is saying is
exactly that.
Like that you are in charge.
So like, if this is what thatis, then it is, but if it's not,
let it be something else.
Right, like that's the power oflike you get to decide.
(46:55):
Are you going to let this bethis way or are you not?
It's, you know, mel Robbinsdoes this.
You're like, let them let them.
Like you're in charge of yourworld.
Like as soon as when I realizedthat we didn't really touch this
, but part of the coaching thingwas when I that's when I
realized like the unlock from mycoaching, the thing I worked on
(47:19):
, was active listening and umand a fun one.
And what that really did openup for me is when I was
listening.
That's when I started realizingthat I was choosing all these
other stories.
I was like creating things thatweren't really there.
I was just that's my story.
I was like this person's thatway, this is that way, and those
were all limiting me.
And so when I was able torealize that wasn't all true,
which is what I want to share inthis book.
Then that's when the unlockcame and I was able to just I
(47:42):
don't need clarity, right, Idon't.
I don't need certainty, I know,I just need confidence and
courage to take the next stepyeah, so tying, tying that back
to to the cannabis industry.
Ben Larson (47:52):
You know, there there's a lot that is outside of
our control and it's you know.
You can watch the conversationson LinkedIn and things can get
pretty spicy at times amongstdifferent groups and I just
there's so much emotion wrappedup into it and in a lot of cases
, it is our occupationallivelihood that's at stake.
(48:17):
It is our occupationallivelihood that's at stake, and
so you know how, how, how do wehelp leaders rationalize that
show confidently and retaintheir power when so much feels?
Andrea Baillo (48:27):
outside of their control.
Yep.
Well, like I said, I'm justgoing to go back to this clarity
Like you don't get to wait forit, you have to create it.
And how you create it is youstop.
You do have to pause, and I'mnot saying, you know, some
people are like I don't havetime, time, I maybe pause for
two seconds, I don't know howlong, but like you need to pause
(48:47):
and you have to zoom out.
You just have to.
You have to slow down.
You have to face the facts andget real about what's happening
and name it.
This is what's happening.
And then you have to make a planRight, and you have to know
what you'll do when things mightneed to change.
So there's these things calledlike reverse accountability
charts.
So if we're going back to, likethe business concept here,
which is like you don't sharethat with everybody, but you're
going to have to have a plan forwhat it could look like when
(49:08):
things are different, like youcan't just say let's hope it
doesn't go there, like you doneed to create a plan and Like
you do need to create a plan,and then you have to stick to
what works, which means this is,I think, one of one of
cannabis's biggest challenges.
You cannot get distracted byshiny objects.
Stay focused on what you'redoing and what your processes
are and stay the course Right.
(49:29):
This is when you have to reallylean back into your mission,
your vision, your values andyour purpose.
What are you doing?
What are you guys doing?
What does everyone know they'resupposed to be doing?
And like, stay focused on thatand then, ultimately, at the end
of the day, like the whole,what we've been talking about a
lot is like you have to lead byexample.
So you have to eat well, youhave to exercise.
You have to be leading andshowing up like it, you know,
(49:50):
like it matters every day.
I love that.
I.
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:53):
I often tell people that that when they work
with me, we're going to put theskunk on the table and we're
talking about their business,but I think that you're just
talking about this idea ofgetting out of denial, accepting
what the reality is and thentrying to take action in the
ways that you can.
Andrea, this has been anawesome conversation.
(50:14):
It's really great to get tothink bigger about reframing
leadership, and especially incannabis, because I just don't
want it to be forgotten ascompanies are facing their
toughest challenges and biggestopportunities, to remember that
investing in leadership issomething that is so critically
important.
And so we're going to be anally and a voice on this show
(50:35):
and in our content, always forleaders to continue growing.
And as we're wrapping up ourhour, I'm wondering if you could
give us a last call and what isyour final message for our
listeners Any call to actionthat you'd like to leave people
with?
Andrea Baillo (50:51):
So my original call to action.
I feel like I've beaten todeath here, so I'm going to
leave that one for everybody tolet marinate further.
But I think that I think,ultimately, what I want people
to remember too is about this ifyou're not leading with
intention and attention, thenyou're just leading by accident.
Ben Larson (51:12):
I love that.
I love it.
Intention and attention.
Presence is a word that we usea lot in our company.
If you're signing up for ameeting, be there.
Stop multitasking, which hasbecome very easy to do in this
virtual world.
But, andrea, I reallyappreciate it.
(51:35):
Always love connecting with youand just jamming on leadership
and psychology and lookingforward to many conversations to
come.
So thank you for spending thelast hour with us.
Andrea Baillo (51:45):
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
I had such a great time andI'll look forward to seeing you
guys both soon.
Ben Larson (51:50):
All right.
AnnaRae Grabstein (51:50):
Yeah, wonderful Thanks.
Ben Larson (51:53):
All right, anna Rae, are we sending you off and back
into the conference land?
Are you going in more centerednow?
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:00):
Yeah, with lots of intention and attention.
I'm so ready for my day.
How about you?
Ben Larson (52:06):
Excellent.
Yeah, I'm heading up toSacramento, actually for a few
meetings before I get to jet offto vacation.
Next week we have Tiffany Chinon the show.
She is the manager of Death RowRecords and keeping the Snoop
Dogg legacy alive in cannabis,and it's going to be a really
exciting conversation.
Tune in for that, for everyonecommenting on this conversation.
(52:30):
Thank you for watching us live.
If you want to comment on ourshows, do join us live on
LinkedIn.
Otherwise, you catch us on ourpodcast on Apple Spotify,
anywhere you might listen to it.
Please rate and review us.
They're rolling in ever soslowly, but it is helping, so
please, please, leave us reviews.
Thank you to our teams atVirtosa and Wolfmeyer.
(52:52):
We love you guys and, of course, our producer, eric Rossetti.
You're the man.
Stay curious, we love you guys.
And, of course, our producer,eric rosetti.
You're the man.
Stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your
spirits high until next time.
That's the show.
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