We dive deep into East Coast cannabis markets with Rick Bashkoff, CEO of Lit Alerts, examining how data is reshaping operations in New York, New Jersey, and beyond as these emerging marketplaces evolve.
• Data accuracy in cannabis typically ranges from 70-90% with most platforms using similar methodology to predict market trends
• New York's cannabis retail scene faces challenges with rampant illicit stores that mimic legal dispensaries and confuse customers
• Top-performing stores in Maryland and New Jersey generate over $1 million monthly, while New York averages $600,000-$700,000 in its top quartile
• Store density significantly impacts performance, with Long Island's limited competition allowing dispensaries to reach multi-million dollar monthly revenues
• New York-born brands dominate their local market while New Jersey shows more receptiveness to established national brands
• Regional preferences exist across form factors, with urban areas favoring vapes and edibles while rural regions prefer traditional flower
• Product movement tracking through alerts and notifications helps brands identify when retailers are running low on inventory
• Challenges with indoor growing capacity in New York creates quality limitations compared to West Coast markets
• Successful brands from other states like Miss Grass, Fernway, and Clay Nine have rapidly gained market share when entering New Jersey
• Focus on operational fundamentals and customer needs rather than industry noise is essential for sustainable success
Visit litalerts.com for a 30-day free trial to explore their data tools, or connect with Rick on LinkedIn for more insights on cannabis market dynamics.
--
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:00):
And to those who say it's too late and the
cat is already out of the bag,no way to go backwards, I
suggest you remove your headfrom your ass before it's stuck
there permanently.
Ben Larson (00:17):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 97.
97 of High Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Grabstein.
We're recording Tuesday, july15th 2025.
And we have an incredible showfor you today.
We're bringing on an old friend, a new friend in Anna Rae's
(00:39):
case, rick Bashkoff, and we'regoing to be talking about data
and everything happening on theEast Coast and beyond.
But before we go there, annaRae, we're doing a little bit of
switching places.
Where in the world are youtoday?
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:53):
I am in Southern Oregon in this adorable
town called Jacksonville, whereit is very hot but it is
awesome.
It's an old gold country townand I'm staying in this gorgeous
Airbnb that's like finished tothe T.
It's lovely and getting readyto hit the Rogue River tomorrow
for a four day camping and riverrafting trip, Totally off grid,
(01:14):
with a bunch of friends and myfamily.
Ben Larson (01:17):
Oh, excellent.
I just got back from Oregon.
I was in Bend and Sun River forthe last few days and we took a
little bit of a road trip onthe way home and hit Crater Lake
and Lassen National Park.
Sorry, we didn't get to runinto each other that would have
been fun to hang out in SouthernOregon.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:33):
Yeah, we're kind of crisscrossing Oregon
ships in the night, but damn, Imean, america is really
beautiful.
I almost said the F word.
It's F word beautiful.
Ben Larson (01:45):
It's too early for that right.
We'll get there.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:49):
Yeah, I feel really grateful to get to just
get in the car and get to gosomewhere as nice as as as we do
, so really cool.
Ben Larson (01:57):
Yeah, yeah it's.
It is beautiful where my wifeand I have have set this goal a
bucket list, so to speak, to allthe US national parks before
our kids go off to school.
Luckily, we live in a statewhere we have a multitude of
national parks to visit, so wecan get the list kicked off
(02:18):
early.
But yeah, we checked two offthis past weekend by hitting
Crater Lake and Lassen, and I,you know, we did Lassen
yesterday, just 24 hours ago.
I was at 8,500 foot elevation,with snow and 85 degree weather,
and it was just kind of magical, you know, to be on top of a
volcano and be playing in thesnow with the kids and to be
(02:38):
able to come back down to lifewithin just a couple hours and
be back at home, so feelingreally fortunate to where we do.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:46):
Maybe we should become van lifers and
take the show on the road.
Ben Larson (02:51):
I don't know.
Yeah, we could, but I don'tknow.
My whole family, one person inparticular, I won't.
I won't put her on blast.
Oops, I just did.
I might not come out of thattrip alive.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:02):
Amazing.
Well, let's jump into a quicknews update.
Unfortunately, there is some bignews that's happened in
cannabis in the last week, and Ijust say unfortunate, because
it's not really great news butworth talking about.
I think we'll start with thebiggest national headlines that
has been a real cannabiscrossover story, and that is
(03:24):
that Glass House, which is thelargest cannabis cultivator in
the US, was raided by ICE lastweek and there was over 300
arrests from their farm workerteam and unfortunately, to make
matters even worse, that anumber of those people that were
arrested were minors.
So this is a bad look, but itreally is turning into some
(03:49):
political theater betweenPresident Trump and Governor
Newsom throw in kind ofmeanities back and forth at each
other, and I think that what'shappening with these ICE raids
just really undercuts that.
There's a human element to allof this, and what I worry about
(04:10):
is the people that are beingaffected here, and the business
will figure this out, but thesehumans that are getting
separated from their familiesand their lives upended as part
of this political theater justreally makes me crazy.
Ben Larson (04:25):
Yeah, political theater is right.
There's a much different way tohandle this, probably a more
effective way to handle thisJust go to the top, go to the
business.
If you know this is happening,do an injunction on the business
.
And I mean shame on Kyle Kazan,the former cop that is now in
charge of the largest cannabisoperation in California, who
(04:49):
also, I believe, is a Trumpsupporter.
I don't know.
I see a lot of chatter onlinejust about the coordination that
happened here and how they'recoordinating with ICE and I
don't know.
It just reeks to me.
I don't want to spread rumors,but there is a lot of chatter on
X.
You can go on there and checkit out for yourself.
I don't know, this just stinksto me.
I don't want to spread rumors,but there is a lot of Tetra on X
.
You can go on there and checkit out for yourself.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:08):
I don't know, this just stinks to me it does,
and I don't know anything aboutwhere Kyle Kazan's political
leanings are, but what I willsay is that what the data says
is that about 70% of US farmworkers are undocumented
immigrants and it is extremelychallenging to find workers to
fill these types of reallychallenging agricultural jobs,
(05:31):
and there's a reckoning thatneeds to happen as this country
grapples with immigration tofigure out if we're really going
to go after deporting people.
How are we going to fill theseroles?
I don't see americans lining upto fill them well.
Ben Larson (05:47):
also, like how come we can't do it with a bit of
humanity?
Putting kids on blast, that'sjust as bad as as subjecting
them to supposed slave laborright, like you know, using
their faces for propaganda.
It's just wrong for the countryto be dealing with this the way
that they is.
It's just shameful, like.
Let's treat them like humanbeings that deserve at least a
(06:11):
little bit of humanity andrespect.
Sorry, it's just reallyupsetting.
I don't have the words.
What I do see a lot online,what everyone sees online, is
just the response from the MAGA,where it's yes, this is what we
voted for, this is what wewanted.
It's like they're takingAmerican jobs and are they?
Are you going to step up andtake these jobs and get paid
(06:32):
what they're getting paid andhelp produce the food and keep
the prices where you want themso you can purchase them and
live your cushy life?
I don't know.
I don't know what the answer is, but it's not this.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:43):
Yeah, and while I think these actions by
the US government are shamefuland I feel more comfortable
being loud about it than I havebefore because we have to use
our voices here at the same timeI understand that this is just
a bad look for cannabis whenwe're in the midst of really
important federal policydiscussions.
It would be really great ifthis wasn't the case, if there
(07:06):
weren't 300 undocumentedimmigrants just arrested at a
legal cannabis farm.
So I just want us to all dobetter.
I want to have humanity be thething that centers all of us in
this, and I also don't wantbusinesses to be disrupted.
So I'm hoping that we can getthrough this as an industry and
as a country and as humans inthe world.
Ben Larson (07:27):
Yeah, okay, well, we can move on.
Yeah we can move on.
Otherwise we're going to startdropping F-bombs and talking
about the DCC and all that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:36):
Yeah, so why don't you give us an update on
what's happening in DC with thispotential hemp ban that's
moving through appropriationssee with this potential hemp ban
that's moving throughappropriations.
Ben Larson (07:50):
We've touched on it in previous episodes, but the
long story short is MillerAmendment style language was
included into the appropriationsbill, the appropriations bill
that's revisited every year, andso both 2025, which hasn't been
approved yet, and 26, this isall being considered and 26.
This is all being considered,and McConnell, who is famous for
ushering through the 2018 FarmBill that did unlock the current
(08:10):
situation that we areexperiencing with hemp, is also
leading the charge at closingthe quote unquote loophole
through the appropriations bill,and so, being that it's the
same author, and being that hehas the poll that he does, and
so, being that it's the sameauthor, and being that he has
the pull that he does, there isa significant chance that the
language, as it's currentlywritten, might get through.
(08:31):
Now, I know that means it's anexistential threat for a lot of
folks, a lot of folks operatingin the hemp space.
However, there is a year longimplementation period that has
been tacked onto this.
It's already in the languageand it has been signaled,
whether out in the open orbehind the scenes, that that is
a time period where we canreally sit down and discuss how
(08:56):
we want this to roll out and Ican't communicate any assurities
to the community.
I do encourage you to getinvolved with the association
that speaks mostly to yourinterests, whoever that might be
, and make sure that your moneyand your voices are going and
being heard in DC.
Now I do believe that there isa fair amount of momentum in the
(09:22):
hemp space and a fair amount ofstakeholders that agree with
responsible regulations and notcompletely closing the loophole,
and I believe that there is astrong chance that we will see
some form of responsibleregulation being proposed over
the next year instead of acomplete, outright ban.
Is that good enough?
(09:42):
Do you want more detail on thattoo?
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:44):
No, I mean, I think what you're saying is
that you anticipate that thefeds are going to do something
like what Texas is doing, whichenter this period of moving
forward with regulation, and Ilike to hear that confidence
that you think it will happen.
I think that one year delaythat made me feel skeptical
(10:06):
because nothing seems to happenat the federal level within one
year.
But I'm open here and I'mwilling to stay optimistic as
these things unfold.
I think that it's aninteresting moment because so
many people in the hempcommunity have been saying that
the toothpaste is out of thetube, the industry is too big
and people are starting tograpple with the fact that it's
(10:29):
possible that the policymakersdon't see it that way.
Uh, some of this stuff isreally starting to seem like it
has legs yeah, well, here's thething it's like.
Ben Larson (10:40):
Mitch mcconnell has a duty right, and holding
politicians to their duties is awhole other conversation.
But he does represent Kentucky,and I saw recent numbers that
70% of the hemp grown inKentucky is destined for
cannabinoid extraction, and evenif all those cannabinoids are
(11:00):
CBD, it is no secret about wheremost CBD is going these days
are CBD.
It is no secret about wheremost CBD is going these days.
And so, unless you want todramatically impact your own
constituents like there is,there is certainly work to be
done, and I think we're.
This is just the phase ofpolitics we're in.
We're in like this massivepolarizing anchoring, like we
(11:20):
saw in Texas, where it's likewe're going to go all out, ban,
we're going to shut down $5billion of commerce and kill
55,000 jobs, or we're going tolike take a special session and
figure out something thatactually makes sense.
And so this one yearimplementation period probably
is what is going to be thespecial session for this
(11:41):
particular piece of federallegislation.
Of course, we still have thefarm bill to talk about in
September, so there's just a lotto do.
But you know there's enoughstates now and there is enough
commerce to your point wherethis needs to be paid attention
to, and I know a lot of peopledon't like to admit it, or maybe
some people don't even know it,but we have a lot of the
alcohol industry wanting to seethis survive, and I know that's
(12:05):
kind of a double-edged sword.
We constantly talk about notwanting the alcohol industry to
control hemp or control cannabis, but it certainly helps to have
them on our side when it comesto lobbying to keep it free and
open, and so this is the tight,uh, tight rope that we're we're
trying to walk and hopefully, aswe get later into the year, we
(12:26):
have secure updates to transmitto you.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:28):
Totally.
I think that there was a greatquote that I wanted to read from
a guy called Craig Fox, whowrites about the industry as an
investor and advisor, and hewrote a piece very similar to
others that have been put outthere, but reminding people how
important it is to align withthe trade associations and the
policies that make sense for youand your business.
(12:50):
And he says and to those whosay it's too late and the cat is
already out of the bag, no wayto go backwards, I suggest you
remove your head from your assbefore it's stuck there
permanently.
So yes to what Craig Fox says.
So thank you for that one.
Ben Larson (13:08):
Yeah, love you, craig.
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:11):
Let's get started with our guest today.
You know, ben and I both hailfrom California and we've been
accused of being too West Coastcentric, but we're not, and we
love all markets all around theUS and the globe, and we also
really love data, and so itseemed important and poignant to
(13:32):
make sure that we created anepisode for you guys to really
dive into what's happening inthese really important markets
in the Northeast.
So today we're going to bringon Rick Bashkoff.
He is the CEO of Lit Alert.
He's a seasoned operator withdeep roots in music and media
and venture and tech, and nowhe's turned his attention to
(13:53):
cannabis, helping operators inNew York and New Jersey, amongst
many other markets, makesmarter decisions with data, and
he's got a sharp eye on what'sworking and what's not.
So we thought he'd be great tobring on today and share with us
what's happening.
Rick, welcome to High Spirits.
How are you doing?
Rick Bashkoff (14:09):
Hey Ben and Anna Rae, Good to see you.
Yeah, good.
Thanks for that nice intro.
AnnaRae Grabstein (14:14):
Absolutely.
Ben Larson (14:15):
Rick, it's great to reconnect man.
I feel we always have theserandom encounters at events
around the nation, the first ofwhich was MJ biz in 2019, I
think but now a coordinatedeffort to do it virtually in
front of everyone.
AnnaRae Grabstein (14:32):
So it's good to have you man, good to be with
you guys.
Yeah, so, rick, you've built ina bunch of different industries
.
As we said in the intro, whatbrought you to cannabis and made
you want to jump in and buildsomething here?
Rick Bashkoff (14:45):
I'm a consumer first and foremost, so have been
for a really long time.
That really transformed into apretty sizable passion around
the industry Around 2016,.
I was doing my thing in mediaand tech and was really looking
for know, just candidly, I wasgetting a little older wanted
(15:07):
you know part of my career to tobe something that I was
passionate about.
So I like kind of like checkedout what was happening in
cannabis in 2016 and had like aborderline panic attack, like
thinking I like completelymissed the boat.
There was like so much going onand all this information that I
really didn't have my eye on,and so I was pretty entrenched
in what I was doing then.
So at that time, I made acouple of investments that
(15:30):
helped me get educated.
I was coming from digital mediaand music and things like that.
I didn't think about supplychain or growing a commodity or
anything like that.
So I tried to give myself aneducation through that and
ultimately ended up making thetransition through a venture
capital firm called 5-4 VenturesReally cool group of operators
(15:52):
slash investors.
Their main focus is onincubating concepts and they
were looking at cannabis.
So I joined them.
That was my first full-timefocused job in cannabis.
We ran smack into COVID.
Full-time, focused job incannabis.
We kind of ran smack into COVID.
But before that happened in2019 is when I met Ben working
for that company and I was outthere on a fact-finding mission
(16:12):
about all different form factorsbecause we were incubating all
these different types ofconcepts.
So I was trying to get a senseof pricing of inputs and kind of
the realities of each of thoseform factors and then from there
kind of just been investing intech side of the business since
and now you're the CEO ofLitAlerts, correct, give us a
quick download on LitAlerts, andthen I have a question already
(16:34):
queued up in my head for you,yeah sure.
So pretty straightforward.
So we're a data company, smallsoftware company.
We're pretty new.
So you've got like the headsets, bdsas of the world, who really
did the tough work in thebeginning, right Of getting the
first data set into market, andthen you've had others like
pistol and hoodie and othersthat have kind of layered on top
(16:56):
of that.
So we entered pretty late inthe game.
So we're relatively new.
We've been commercializing asoftware for about a year and a
half, but we saw a uniqueopportunity A to build a
software company in 2024 is verydifferent than when a lot of
these companies got started, buton top of it, we saw a specific
opportunity around buildingaction item and decision-making
(17:20):
focused interfaces, because oneof the things that we observed
in market was I can't takecredit for this, this is really
the co-founders.
What they observed was a lot offolks using data.
Most of them were like theexecutives.
Maybe there was a data focusedperson, maybe some of the middle
managers, but nobody who's onthe ground was really using this
the sellers, account managers,brand ambassadors, inventory
(17:42):
managers, buyers, and so that'swhere we've kind of tried to
focus on is making these verysimple UIs that can really act
as a pocket tool.
I mean the average time spentin our app is less than 15
minutes.
So our whole kind of productvision is around folks that can
answer their questions veryquickly, but then of course also
(18:03):
more robust features that theexecutives and questions very
quickly, but then of course alsomore robust features that the
executives and analysts can use.
Ben Larson (18:08):
Interesting, and so you mentioned building a tech
company in 2024 is verydifferent than, say, 2018.
And part of that is probablythe capital landscape and I'm
curious because I know thatLittle Earths you've kind of
grown it organicallybootstrapped.
You came from the venture side.
Tell me a little bit about thatdynamic, whether it's the
(18:31):
current landscape or even justthe team's philosophy around
raising money and the need to doso.
Rick Bashkoff (18:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's largely as you said.
The landscape has changed,right when I was coming up in
tech and I made a transitionfrom music into kind of software
, early stage tech in 2008.
And back then, you know, smartpeople from Google were raising
money with an idea on the backof a napkin, right, like that
(18:58):
was actually happening, right.
So you've got very easy capitalto hire a few engineers, build
a prototype, put around withproduct market fit.
You kind of have like 18 to 24months to do that.
That was really what a seedround was for.
You know, fast forward to today, that capital is not really
there, right, and so I can eventell you, as an investor, I'm
(19:21):
looking for companies thatalready have customers, because
it's just so easy to build aprototype today with off the
shelf tools and bring somethingto market.
I'm specifically talking aboutsoftware, not talking about
hardware.
I'm specifically talking aboutsoftware.
I'm not talking about hardware.
I'm not talking about anythingelse in the canvas industry.
I'm specifically talking aboutsoftware.
Prototyping something has neverbeen easier.
(19:41):
We're doing it constantly, andI can talk a little bit about
the tools that we use to do it,but just I'll give you a very
quick example.
At LitAlerts, we're very focusedon we're not just resting on
one thing, so we like to committo prototyping one or two brand
new things a year.
So in Vegas we got together asa whole team and we sat together
(20:04):
.
We did a big brainstorm sessionand we came up with a concept
that leverages some of ourcurrent technology and we went
from that meeting to a prototypein three months and that's with
a portion of our time, becauseobviously 95% of our time is
going towards little alerts.
But we've got a website with aweb form and we've got a very
(20:27):
simple email service that runsfor consumers.
The service is called Turpog.
You can visit it at turpogcom.
It's largely like kind of we'retinkering with it right now,
but the concept is you can, as acustomer, you can just
subscribe to a very simple emailthat tells you where your
favorite products are availablearound town.
You know that type ofprototyping was not possible 10
(20:49):
years ago, and so starting acompany in software nowadays is
completely different than when Iwas schooled in it.
Our back office is completelyautomated.
We're six nerds trying to findways to minimize tasks and using
every off-the-shelf AIcapability we can on the
automation side and we're aboutto get really focused on the AI
(21:13):
applications, on the actual dataproduct that we have.
But yeah, I mean, it'scompletely different now and I
wouldn't say that you don't haveto raise money.
I think that's kind of like anoverstatement.
I think maybe you know LittleAlerts would be open to raising
capital if it made sense, if wethought that, you know, we could
scale a team.
But the terms that areavailable right now are, are,
(21:34):
are, are fairly, they're notadvantageous for founders.
Let's put it that way.
AnnaRae Grabstein (21:40):
Nerds are so cool.
I I'm one also, so I I lovethat you self-identify, and as
does your team, as nerds so coolstuff, you know.
Let's let's like dive intotalking about some of this data
stuff, because data is bothimportant and imperfect, and I
think that in cannabis I oftenhear I work with operators,
(22:03):
retailers, supply chain peopleand folks love to share the data
when it looks good and when itdoesn't look good, they love to
tell me how the data is totallyinaccurate and headset doesn't
understand or the BDSA is wrong.
I would love it if you coulddemystify a little bit about how
the data that we use incannabis is sourced and even how
(22:27):
that might be different fromthe data that people are used to
from Nielsen and IRI andbroader CPG spaces.
Rick Bashkoff (22:35):
Yeah, sure, I mean, look, I think I'll
actually go the opposite way andjust kind of, it's all very
similar, right?
The concept and you probablyremember this from long ago in
school, right?
Is any market data company istaking a sample of data and
extrapolating the rest, right, Idon't care if we're talking
about Nielsen ratings, I don'tcare if we're talking about the
(22:55):
US census, right, like, anythingthat you're quoting is taking a
sample of data and it'sextrapolating, right.
And so every time that you reada report that has some data in
it that X percent of people do Y, right, you know, scroll to the
bottom they interviewed 1500people, right?
And so I think that it's reallyimportant to to understand that
(23:18):
getting the universe of data Idon't care if your headset, bdsa
, the fir, like kind of the I'dsay, the founding data providers
in cannabis or pistol or hoodieor can menus or any of the
other I, I, we personally feellike we're all perfectly capable
.
Yes, we've seen our personallyfeel like we're all perfectly
capable.
Yes, we've seen ourcompetitors' data sets.
We're all pretty close, to beperfectly honest with you, and
(23:40):
the idea here is that there'sjust different ways of taking a
sample of data.
Like Sai from Headset, had agreat talk at Benzinga this year
, and one of the things wereally admire about Headset is
they're pretty transparent aboutwhat they have right.
They even say right on we covera third of transactions, right,
that's what we have access to.
So that means that the othertwo thirds 90% accurate,
(24:15):
especially in the face of 0%visibility.
So I think that sometimes whenI'm speaking to customers,
they'll ask me about a similartopic and specifically if it's a
right, I'm like listen.
The only way this is all ahundred percent accurate is if
(24:35):
retailers, out of the goodnessof their heart, agree to donate
their transaction data to somecentralized pool that all of us
nerds can develop on Right.
But that's not going to happen.
And so you know what we try anddo is.
So we look at.
We use a technique called webcrawling, others like Headset
and BDSA and do is so we look at.
We use a technique called webcrawling.
Others like Headset and BDSAand others have direct hooks
(24:56):
into POS some percentage of that.
But what we're looking at onthe website is we're looking for
changes that happen.
So when we get a retailer thatcomes to us for a demo, they'll
say you know, where are yougetting my data from?
I'm like I'm visiting yourwebsite a couple times a day
just to see what's happening.
Products are changing, pricingchanging, available quantities
changing, and we've just built avery sophisticated suite of
(25:21):
algorithms that takes thatinformation and predicts what's
happening in the store.
We're usually in the 70 to 90%accuracy range and we do three
levels of checks, as I'm sureour competitors do as well.
We look at the state any statereports which are kind of here
nor there.
To be honest, some states arepretty good about it, Others are
not.
We have unit tests that runthat are looking for anomalies.
And then the third is like wehave customers who are
(25:44):
constantly reporting anomaliesto us and we use all that
information to just increase theaccuracy.
And I think that's anotherimportant point, Anna Rae is
that when you're working withany type of market data, you
should feel the empowerment toreach out to folks at the
company when you see somethinglike that, because it's probably
an opportunity to learnsomething about the market, some
(26:06):
nuance, something that can helpthe data set overall.
So, yeah, that's my kind oflike overall on like how these
data tools again, I don't careif this is Nielsen, I don't care
if this is the US Census.
This is how market data isachieved is by taking a sample
of data and predicting the rest.
So that's my spiel on it.
Ben Larson (26:28):
So you bring up this interesting point.
The states actually have gooddata because we have track and
trace systems in every state andsome states do put out
reporting, which I think isgreat, and I know Canada does as
well, or at least Ontario.
Have the nerds collectivelycome together and maybe try to
(26:48):
lobby the states to unlock thedata data that is available in,
say, metric.
I know we had michael johnsonon from from metric and he was
saying that a lot of that isbecause in the contracts the
states have like locked up thedata and it says it's anonymized
.
But it's like man, what atreasure trove.
If they could just unlock themetric data and make that
(27:11):
available to data companies thatare crunching the numbers, then
we would have hyper accuratenumbers.
Rick Bashkoff (27:16):
No, totally.
Look.
I mean, that is like the dreamscenario for us and our
competitors is that there issome structured data set that we
can just then compete onfeatures and functionality,
right, it's important toremember that the merchant data
is actually owned by theretailer, and so that's really
what stands in the way of any.
(27:37):
In my understanding, from alegal perspective, what stands
in the way is that the retailersactually have to opt that data
in.
So when you hear even POSsystems talking about their data
, a lot of that data actuallybelongs to the retailer.
Now, if the three of us put onour retailer hat like you have
to ask yourself, depending onwhat you're getting out of a
(27:58):
tool, are you in a rush to giveup your transaction data?
Right, and if you are, what areyou?
What do you want in return forthat?
And so I think that you knowwhat we've observed is that
retailers seem to be less andless willing to share that
transactional data, and that'swhere I've seen lit alerts kind
(28:19):
of win some retailer customersin that they're like you know
what.
You're visiting my website acouple times a day.
I don't really have to showeveryone everything.
Everyone kind of understandsthat this is directional, so I
feel more comfortable with this.
On the other hand, again, likeI would love it if we had some
type of requirement thatretailers had to deliver data in
a specific format.
(28:39):
But I think that the ownershipand the retailer opt-in, I think
is really what I don't want tosay stands in the way of that.
Because, personally, like again, if we put our retailer hat on,
like I get it.
I really do understand aretailer who's not in a rush to
kind of share their you knowtheir whole that's the treasure
trove of their business, rightis their customer transaction
(29:00):
data, and so, of course, thecustomers own their own personal
, you know, pii, but the actualrecords of the transactions,
that's merchant data.
Ben Larson (29:08):
So, whether it's 70% or 100% in some dream scenario,
when it comes to accuracy, itis basically a somewhat level
playing field, and some peoplemight argue that, but let's just
assume that it's a levelplaying field between all the
data companies of the of theplatform and how people are
(29:35):
using it, and so I'm curious asto you know, maybe a specific
example like what?
What's a unique way that thatexcites you about how someone's
using your platform anddecisions they're making around
around their business?
Rick Bashkoff (29:44):
Yeah, so one of the reasons the company was
named lit alerts is that one ofthe big visions around the
product is to actually bringthis information to these users
without having them have to loginto a dashboard, right, and so
we started with dashboards,because that's what people are
really used to, right.
So we have some very simpledashboards in our web app, but
(30:08):
we launched a beta feature lastyear which is a morning email
alert for brands and wholesalers, and what it specifically does
is it gives them a signal everymorning as to whether or not a
specific retailer is running lowor has run completely out of
stock on a product, and so nowyou have account execs who are
(30:28):
located all over a state who aregetting an email every morning.
That gives them kind of a onelook no different than browsing
another email in the inbox inthe morning of where their
opportunities are, and so that,in particular, has been so
popular that we will now,sometime early in the fall,
we're going to actually pullthat out as its own feature, and
(30:49):
notifications within our appare going to get far more robust
.
But I think that kind of set usapart, because that was one of
the first kind of like datacoming at you experiences A lot
of these account execs andaccount managers and brand
ambassadors.
Right, you're a brandambassador, you're going to set
up a standup.
(31:10):
If you get an idea of youraccounts are running low, right,
you can, you can make thatinformation available, right?
I'd say that that kind ofpushing information out has been
one way that our customers havesaid we've kind of stood out a
bit and then simplicity is likeour thing, right?
It's like people are in and outof this.
(31:30):
In five minutes I'm I'mliterally parked in front of a
dispensary.
I open up my phone because Iwant to know a part of my pitch
is how my competitors are priced.
Five minutes before the meeting, I'm opening up, I'm looking at
a couple key screens that showhow my competitors are priced at
this store and then I'm walkinginto the meeting, right?
(31:51):
So I'd say that those likereally tight use cases that
we're hearing about, wherepeople are jumping in, getting
an answer to their questionimproves their pitch, improves
the structure of their day,their route.
Actually, right, like, whichaccounts are they going to
prioritize?
Those are the things that we'reafter.
Very cool.
AnnaRae Grabstein (32:08):
Well, so let's dive into talking about
two of these hot state markets.
Well, so let's dive intotalking about two of these hot
state markets New York and NewJersey.
And there's been this crazybuzz around these markets and
the industry and there's been alot of challenges, and I would
(32:31):
love for you to share whatyou're seeing.
What are some of the key datapoints that you're watching?
You know, I I've, I've wasn'treally sure how the MSO
dominance that that has beenpreexisting in the New Jersey
medical market was going to playout with the launch of adult
use and dispensaries.
And and then in New York andNew Jersey, there's this
proliferation of illicit marketcannabis that was being sold in
(32:51):
bodegas and smoke shops and allover the place.
It's just, it's been a hard topredict market, but it's
starting to make more sense.
So tell us how you make senseof it.
What are you paying attentionto?
Rick Bashkoff (33:04):
Yeah, uh, I will talk about New York and New
Jersey cannabis all day, by theway, so message to you and your
listeners anytime you want tohave me back, um, so it's, it's
me back.
So I've been in the cannabisspace for almost six years now,
and it was lonely the firstthree years, right, it was like
we're all flying out to the WestCoast to get part of the action
(33:24):
, and so it's our time out hereas kind of like the growth
markets.
Many of the markets in the West, and maybe even, arguably, a
few in the Midwest, are becomingmature now.
So everyone's looking forgrowth and it's here, but it's
not as fast as you'd like it tobe.
(33:44):
So New York now has over 400retail locations open, and so
we're starting to see some ofthe effects of location density
prices coming down as well, andNew York's been tough man.
The delays on the retail side.
They're crushing.
(34:05):
They're not only crushing, mostimportantly from a financial
and a mental health perspective,but the right, a lot of these
folks who've been sitting onthese locations for years.
It's now time to open.
They've been beaten up for awhile, right, and so I think we
need to give a lot of theseoperators a little bit more time
(34:25):
than we would expect in othermarkets to really find their
footing, because it's been avery, very bumpy ride.
And so take one of ourco-founders, nate.
He just opened his store BloomBrothers New York yesterday.
It's a three and a half yearprocess, and so they're just
getting to welcome customers,and so that fatigue on the
(34:46):
market I think you really hearin the operators, both on the
brand and the retail side.
There's arguments about howmany stores we need.
Right, it's everything from1500 to no.
I think we'll probably top outat 500, 600.
But you hit it, anna Rae.
I think that the highlight ofthe problems is the illicit
(35:06):
stores.
My personal opinion is theillicit stores that look like
legal stores are the mainproblem.
Right, there's definitely goingto be a healthy illicit market,
particularly in the New YorkCity area.
It's a big part of the culture,a very vast and sophisticated
delivery network.
But that's not really what I'mtalking about here.
(35:28):
I'm talking about standing on acorner in Manhattan and looking
in at a beautiful dispensarywith deli-style top-shelf indoor
buds.
None of that, by the way, isavailable and allowed in the New
York regulated market, and sothat's what I'm talking about,
because I'm blown away that thatexists, but the customer has no
(35:51):
idea.
So they're walking in, theythink they're in a legal shop
and those are the stores that Ithink are really hurting a lot
of the growth potential forthese stores, and I'm in
agreement with many of theoperators and ancillary
providers that are focused onthe state who are really pushing
(36:12):
for more enforcement there.
It's New York, so there'sobviously some controversy
around it, there's some lawsuitsin play, but I just think that
if we're being honest and wewant to market and you want
people to invest their time andtheir careers, you can't have
(36:32):
someone playing by differentrules right next door.
It's just not how businessworks, unfortunately, yeah.
Ben Larson (36:40):
Rick, you talk about sitting on the sidelines and
watching and visiting us here onthe West Coast and taking notes
, waiting for your turn.
Rough rollouts, a rampantillicit market, finding the
balance of what's enoughdispensaries.
I hate to say it, but this iskind of like a common theme as
we kind of work our way throughlegalization in various states.
(37:01):
I'm curious as to what weresome of your observations of
what was happening on the WestCoast and how that kind of set
your expectations for what youwere going to experience on the
East Coast and now that you'reliving it, what might be
different than what you wereexpecting.
Unpack that a little bit.
Rick Bashkoff (37:22):
You know, beyond these challenges, that, yeah,
like I said, has kind of becomenormalized, uh, in the cannabis
industry yeah, I mean, look, I,you know pretty, uh, I think I'm
known as a pretty upfront andhonest person like we didn't
listen, you know, like we didn't, we didn't learn much from from
the west coast markets and it's, it's disappointing, you know
(37:43):
we're, we're definitely we,we've got, uh, you know, one of
the states that we're talkingabout here is talking about
raising taxes, right, so we'renot learning much and it's
painful.
So that's my answer.
Ben is, I think, the thing thatsurprised me most from the
regulatory perspective.
There was opportunity to meetwith others who had done it, who
(38:05):
had been there, and definitelynotes were not taken, definitely
not put into play, and so Ithink we're running into a lot
of the same problems that otherstates are and we've complicated
it even further in many caseshere in New York, and then New
Jersey's done a little bit, hasgone a little bit of a different
path.
So there, as Anna Rae pointedout, there was a dominance of
(38:28):
the medical operators and theMSOs.
That's changed in the last 12months.
You've had an influx of someestablished national brands.
I know everyone still likes toclaim that we don't have
national brands in cannabis, butwe do.
If you watch the way some ofthese.
If you watch the way Miss Grassentered New Jersey, you know
(38:51):
that we have national brandshere.
You know if you watch the waythat some of the brand, like
Rove, how they've entered someof these East Coast markets like
there are national brands incannabis and you know, I think,
what has been really excitingabout New Jersey and I don't
care how much heat I take onthis in New York I drive across
the bridge to buy weed sometimesbecause there's pretty serious
(39:18):
West Coast growers who have comeEast and are actually very
focused on New Jersey.
So you've got the group of,like Clay Nine have come out and
they zoomed up the charts onthe flower side and it's now
basically just them, gardenGreens and MSOs.
So you've had a bunch of theseout of state brands who have
(39:42):
found good manufacturingpartners and have really found
their path in New Jersey.
One other thing that I think isreally important to point out
about New Jersey is there isthis group of independent
retailers in New Jersey that arenot only just fine operators,
they all know each other andthey're all sharing best
practices.
You talk to them, they all knoweach other and it's really
(40:05):
created a pretty awesomecommunity.
So some of these folks Molly,ann Farms, primo, nirvana,
there's all these stores thathave really they're in the top
20, top 25.
And not only are they drivingserious top line revenue, these
are companies that are lookingat their second and third
(40:26):
locations, and so you know, Ithink, that there is a lot of
them carry MSO products too,right.
But there's a New Jersey strongkind of community going here
Again.
Like all of that positivity ismet with, like I just mentioned,
there's discussions of taxraises.
There's massive opt out issuesin New Jersey as well, as you
(40:47):
know, as the party's over interms of premium pricing, so
that party's over.
AnnaRae Grabstein (40:53):
So I do want to talk about category trends,
but before that I want to put alittle bit of a deeper dive into
the New York and New Jerseyretail store performance.
You guys track revenue perstore in an aggregate way, where
you're tracking performanceacross these markets, and I'd
(41:13):
love it if you could just sharesome data with our listeners
about what you're seeing at aretail store level perspective,
about kind of top line revenuethat is impactful in the market.
What's sort of the range of anunderperforming store and
overperforming store, what'saffecting those types of
performance metrics?
Rick Bashkoff (41:34):
Sure.
So you know, look, I think thatyou know for us, the area that
you know we're pretty focused onis, let's call it, the
Northeast and Mid-Atlantic.
And so if you look at, you knowthe major growth markets in
that area New York, new Jerseyand Maryland you see some
similar patterns.
But it's important to note thatyou know Maryland.
(41:56):
So the way we look at it interms of quartiles right, so
like what quartile is your storea part of gives you a.
It gives retailers a good sensethat's the purpose of
publishing this data is likegiving a retailer like, okay,
across the state, kind of what,where am I in the top 25%?
You know, but kind of 25 to 50,like where are we in the state?
And in Maryland that firstquartile is leading the pack by
(42:19):
a long shot.
You know we're talking.
You know 1.3, 1.4 million amonth in gross sales and
Jersey's actually not far behindin that top quartile and in
like a couple hundred thousanddollars behind but over a
million a month in averageretail revenue.
But then you look at a statelike Massachusetts that mature
(42:39):
in that top quartile, falls downbelow 700,000 per month.
And one thing that's a littleconcerning is that if we look at
New York and one thing that's alittle concerning is that if we
look at New York, new York,that top quartile is not in that
neighborhood.
With New Jersey and Marylandit's really kind of more on the
Massachusetts level of kind ofthe $600,000 to $700,000 a month
(43:02):
.
Now there's lots of spread inthat top quartile mainly because
of Long Island, of spread inthat top quartile mainly because
of Long Island.
So Long Island just for thelisteners, long Island is this
absolute.
There's no better place in theworld to try and make money in
cannabis right now because it'sone of the most populous.
It is the most populous.
Nassau and Suffolk County arethe two most populous counties
(43:24):
beyond the boroughs of New YorkCity and they have some of the
highest income per familyhousehold and there's eight
dispensaries on the entireisland.
And so those stores are, youknow, a lot of them are in kind
of the stratosphere, multiplemillion dollars a month in sales
.
But as you kind of travel downthese quartiles a different
(43:47):
story starts to play out.
So New Jersey and New York, forexample, on the bottom end of
the quartiles they're neck andneck and that's kind of like
your 50 to 60 grand a monthstore.
But then if you look at andMassachusetts is in that realm
as well, but you look atMaryland, they are smoking.
So if you're in the bottomquartile in Maryland, you're
(44:09):
still pulling in $300,000,$400,000 a month in top line
revenue.
So what are the things that wesee here that affects this size
store count?
So if you look across here, theaverage stores per quartile are
incredibly low in Maryland, solower store count, they're
capturing broader parts of thatstate.
(44:29):
The largest stores per quartileare in New York and
Massachusetts and that's whereyou saw that leveling off in
that first quartile.
So it's very clear that thereis an effect of and this is not
anything anybody didn't know.
This is more confirming, right,that the store density plays a
major role in the performance ofthese stores.
(44:49):
Now, what does this not takeinto account?
Of course, this doesn't takeinto account things we were
talking about before, right,efforts to transfer people from
the illicit market to the legalmarket, how those efforts are
going in each of the states,right, like I think New York
probably has the worst of theproblems in that realm.
So I think there's a lot offactors that could affect these
numbers as we continue to trackthem.
Ben Larson (45:11):
What about product form factor Like?
How does that influence theperformance of these stores,
especially in comparison to theAlyssa market?
Are you making those, thosekinds of comparisons?
Rick Bashkoff (45:22):
Yeah.
So I'll say this right, likepeople, when people think of New
York, it's hey, I'm walkinghere, it's New York city, but
right.
But big state, right, you'vegot the Hudson Valley, you have
capital region, you have theSyracuse and Rochester area,
rochester areas, and thenBuffalo may as well be in the
Midwest.
I mean it's a very, very big,big state.
(45:45):
And so those different areasare commanding different form
factors.
You see, in the city, the muchmore social form factors, the
vapes and edibles, are taking upa larger share, whereas you
move north, flour takes overmore of the share, because those
convenience factors become lessand less important if you're
not in a crowded city, right,you also, I think there's
(46:08):
something.
So we're trying to look intothis.
We're still developing a methodto do so.
But you've got a commutingpopulation, right, that are
picking up their cannabis in NewYork city, but they're
traveling back to New Jersey andConnecticut.
Right.
And because these states are soclose, we're trying to
understand the effect of theysee one set of brands in New
(46:32):
York City and then they see acompletely different set, in
certain cases a completelydifferent set of brands if they
visit their retailer at home.
That's 20 minutes away.
The products and form factors.
Last thing I'll mention I don'tknow if this is form factors,
but New York is incrediblylimited on indoor canopy per the
(46:54):
regulations, and so the onlyfolks who have large enough
indoor canopy to be dangerousare the ROs, the registered
organizations.
They're the original medicaloperators and for the most part,
you can literally just map anRO to an MSO, and so most of the
(47:14):
indoor product is actuallystill coming from MSO growers.
Now that's changing a littlebit.
And now this is where me, as aconsumer, I'm weighing in a
little bit.
Here You've got micro licensesand micro growers that are
coming on, and now, while theydo have the option to go fully
vertical, many of them are justchoosing, and I they these are a
lot of these are legacy playersthat are finding this and
(47:37):
coming over and doing smallbatch with their whatever canopy
they can, right.
So you've got folks like leadfarmer and collector who have
put out some some pretty fireproduct actually, um, and they
have the capability of of ofgrowing indoor, but for the most
part, um, the product here ismixed light, greenhouse, um, and
(47:58):
we don't have the growth seasonthat the West coast States do,
right, and so I don't have totell you how old some of this
weed is that people are smoking,um so so that's kind of some of
the product form and productlimitations around what could be
affecting some of these retailnumbers, to be perfectly honest.
Because let's get real, if youlive in Long Island and you go
to the dispensary a couple oftimes and your dealer has better
(48:20):
weed, you're probably goingback to that dealer right, well,
so let's dive into that alittle more.
AnnaRae Grabstein (48:25):
So you talked about the stores, you talked
about the form factors, kind ofthe categories, but what about
the brands?
I know that you're trackingbrand performance and watching
as brands move to the topquickly, because we don't have a
ton of time left, but I wouldlove to have you call out some
of the big exploding surprisesas brands have come into these
(48:49):
markets.
Maybe a couple in New York anda couple in New Jersey.
Rick Bashkoff (48:53):
Yeah, so it's super cool.
In New York the three topbrands are all New York born and
bred Heirloom, which isactually so.
I'm from upstate New York, soI'm actually familiar.
The company behind Heirloom isBeacon Skift, kind of a staple
in New.
Ben Larson (49:08):
York.
Yeah, shout out to Matt Huberand the team.
Rick Bashkoff (49:10):
Yeah, apple Orchards.
As a kid they've been in thehard cider game.
They've got a great business sothey're in the top spot.
They've done a fantastic jobwith branding and distribution.
Their head of sales, nick, is atotal mastermind and so they've
done great.
Dank, by definition, is kind ofthe flower brand produced by
(49:34):
HPI Canna, and then Jaunty.
Jaunty is a great.
They're a top vape brand.
They also produce gummies andconcentrates, but one of the
original hemp producers andlicenses.
So it's a great story thatthey've taken one of the top
spots.
Most of the New York operatorsare in the top position.
(49:56):
You know, if you're looking atjust, you know street units sold
or revenue sold In New Jerseyit's a little bit of a different
story.
So the MSO has got quite a bigstart there.
So you know you've got Ozoneand Rhythm who are still the top
players there.
But a couple of call-outs thatI think are really worth it I
mentioned Miss Grass before whoreally came in and killed it on
(50:17):
the pre-roll side, garden Greensand Clay Nine on the flower
side are kind of.
Now they have this kind ofgroundswell of awareness and
they've really become some ofthe top shelf go-tos.
And then on the vape side, manFernway.
This was very impressive.
I'm talking like three monthswhen they entered New Jersey,
(50:38):
skyrocketed to the top andthey've stayed there.
Really, really pretty brilliantpiece of work there by that
marketing team, marketing team.
But yeah, if you were to breakdown into specific categories,
like edibles in New Jersey, yousee the usual suspects taking
over.
So like Gruen, juana Wild,camino, right, and there are
(50:58):
spots that you'd imagine them onthe edible side in New York.
I'm sorry in New Jersey, butwhat's curious is most of those
brands are in New York as well.
And you've got Off Hours, whichis a great New York edibles
brand.
Heirloom, jaunty are up therein the top.
But you're starting to seeGruen Wild, camus.
You're seeing more of theout-of-state brands have success
(51:20):
in New York in the edibles sideof the business than in the
vapes and um and flower side.
New jersey's a little bit moremore open.
But um, yeah, rumor has it thatuh, jeter is launching in new
york soon.
So I'm very, very interested tosee that uh, that play out um as
(51:41):
a, as just kind of like a againas a data nerd, but um, it's
really interesting to see theseWest Coast brands enter the East
Coast markets and see thetactics that they use.
I mean, again, we're largelyjust observers as a data company
, but it's really interesting tobe able to observe and really
fun to be able to report on.
(52:02):
Yeah.
Ben Larson (52:02):
Well, I really appreciate the deep dive there
and I'm imagining all these bargraphs kind of constantly moving
over time.
Those visualizations that peoplecreate.
That kind of like shows thingsover time Really cool.
Rick, as we approach the end ofthe hour, I just would love to
hear your broader observation ofthe space.
You've had all these differentroles.
(52:23):
You're now the CEO of a datacompany.
You're anticipating a lot ofchanges as West Coast meets East
Coast.
What's your advice to operatorsout there that are working
their way through the cannabisindustry right now?
Rick Bashkoff (52:37):
Yeah, I mean without swearing, I'll use F,
but F the noise is really thebit of advice that I've gotten
in my time on earth in a coupleof things, personal and
professional, and I think thatapplies here.
Most great life-changing kindof world-changing opportunities
have two steps forward, one stepback, and we are certainly in
(53:00):
one step back territory rightnow.
So it's really easy to betaking hits from maybe your
friends who went and started adifferent business and it's
doing much better right now, buteverything's only as good as
the current snapshot.
And so I think, like, if you'refocusing on your, on being a
bottom line operator, you knowdoing everything you can, uh,
(53:20):
because it's, it's never harder,right.
Then, uh, then, operating acannabis business, business, the
turn of profit, a profit, right, when I tell friends and
families that license holderspay taxes on gross profit,
people fall out of their chairs,right, like it's.
It's just, we've had so manythings against us and I think
you know, like I definitelythought 280e would be gone by
(53:40):
now.
I, you know, I've been, I'vebeen wrong enough in this
industry that I kind of chuckleevery time I run across someone
who's like I've seen this playout before, this is how it's
going to happen and whatever.
And it's like man.
I've been in this industry forsix years and I've gone the
opposite direction.
If I feel conviction, I nowquestion myself because I
predicted so many times, right,that that so-and-such was going
(54:02):
to happen, and so I think likethat's it.
You know, just F the noise.
You know, focus on thefundamentals of your business Um
, trying not to listen to toomany people who don't operate
cannabis and your spot ofcannabis, right, like, uh, you
know I don't have any greatadvice for cultivators and I
don't pretend to.
You know, if you're a softwarecompany, if you're an early
stage company, I have somethoughts for you that might help
(54:22):
.
But you know, really, onlylisten to people in your circle
who are doing what you're doing.
Yeah, I think that's my, that'smy bit of advice is just like
there's a lot of noise right now.
You know whether it's hempversus regulated cannabis,
what's Trump going to do?
You know terrible topics thatyou guys covered at the top.
You know all of it has to be,you know, ingested and taken for
(54:43):
what it's worth.
But you got to keep your eyeright on the numbers and right
on the operations and becustomer obsessed.
You know, just be customerobsessed, whatever, whoever your
customer is.
That's the way, that's the wayforward, because you know
technology and features and allthose things are going to become
commoditized.
You know, just focus on thesimple things.
AnnaRae Grabstein (55:03):
That's.
That's great advice, rick.
We really appreciate it.
And yeah, fuck the noise.
I said it.
We already went explicit, so Ilove it.
Just for the last call, yougave some great advice already.
What's a good way for ourlisteners to find you and get in
touch if they want to follow upor learn more about what you're
up to?
Rick Bashkoff (55:22):
Sure, yeah, just, you can sign up for a free
trial for Lit Alerts right onour website.
So we give a 30 day free trial.
We try and earn our spot in thetech stack.
I'm also approachable onLinkedIn.
I actually check my inbox and Iknow everyone's bitching and
moaning about it right now, butit's one of the only places we
can connect.
So uh, I'm there.
Uh, I'm checking my my inboxand responding there.
(55:44):
So yeah, hit me up if you'vegot questions about data or
you'd like to take a look at litalerts or anything else about
the cannabis industry.
Ben Larson (55:51):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, rick.
That conversation was lit.
Yeah, well done.
Good job, joe, ken.
All right, we'll catch up soon,man.
All right, folks, what do youthink?
Let us know.
Please engage, follow us onLinkedIn, watch the live
recording and leave yourcomments and we'll answer your
(56:11):
questions online.
Don't forget our 100th episode.
We have a little bit of aM-A-A-U-A.
Ask us anything, so send inyour questions, we'll give you
all the links, all that kind ofstuff.
Thank you to our families, ourfriends and our colleagues at
Virtosa and Wolfmeyer and, ofcourse, our producer, eric
Rossetti.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please drop a review, a rating
(56:36):
Apple Podcasts, spotify,wherever you listen to your
podcasts.
It helps listeners like andfind our content and helps us
grow.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and, most
importantly, keep your spirits.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and, most
importantly, keep your spiritshigh Until next time.
That's the show.
And to those who say it's too late and the
cat is already out of the bag,no way to go backwards, I
suggest you remove your headfrom your ass before it's stuck
there permanently.
Ben Larson (00:17):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 97.
97 of High Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Grabstein.
We're recording Tuesday, july15th 2025.
And we have an incredible showfor you today.
We're bringing on an old friend, a new friend in Anna Rae's
(00:39):
case, rick Bashkoff, and we'regoing to be talking about data
and everything happening on theEast Coast and beyond.
But before we go there, annaRae, we're doing a little bit of
switching places.
Where in the world are youtoday?
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:53):
I am in Southern Oregon in this adorable
town called Jacksonville, whereit is very hot but it is
awesome.
It's an old gold country townand I'm staying in this gorgeous
Airbnb that's like finished tothe T.
It's lovely and getting readyto hit the Rogue River tomorrow
for a four day camping and riverrafting trip, Totally off grid,
(01:14):
with a bunch of friends and myfamily.
Ben Larson (01:17):
Oh, excellent.
I just got back from Oregon.
I was in Bend and Sun River forthe last few days and we took a
little bit of a road trip onthe way home and hit Crater Lake
and Lassen National Park.
Sorry, we didn't get to runinto each other that would have
been fun to hang out in SouthernOregon.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:33):
Yeah, we're kind of crisscrossing Oregon
ships in the night, but damn, Imean, america is really
beautiful.
I almost said the F word.
It's F word beautiful.
Ben Larson (01:45):
It's too early for that right.
We'll get there.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:49):
Yeah, I feel really grateful to get to just
get in the car and get to gosomewhere as nice as as as we do
, so really cool.
Ben Larson (01:57):
Yeah, yeah it's.
It is beautiful where my wifeand I have have set this goal a
bucket list, so to speak, to allthe US national parks before
our kids go off to school.
Luckily, we live in a statewhere we have a multitude of
national parks to visit, so wecan get the list kicked off
(02:18):
early.
But yeah, we checked two offthis past weekend by hitting
Crater Lake and Lassen, and I,you know, we did Lassen
yesterday, just 24 hours ago.
I was at 8,500 foot elevation,with snow and 85 degree weather,
and it was just kind of magical, you know, to be on top of a
volcano and be playing in thesnow with the kids and to be
(02:38):
able to come back down to lifewithin just a couple hours and
be back at home, so feelingreally fortunate to where we do.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:46):
Maybe we should become van lifers and
take the show on the road.
Ben Larson (02:51):
I don't know.
Yeah, we could, but I don'tknow.
My whole family, one person inparticular, I won't.
I won't put her on blast.
Oops, I just did.
I might not come out of thattrip alive.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:02):
Amazing.
Well, let's jump into a quicknews update.
Unfortunately, there is some bignews that's happened in
cannabis in the last week, and Ijust say unfortunate, because
it's not really great news butworth talking about.
I think we'll start with thebiggest national headlines that
has been a real cannabiscrossover story, and that is
(03:24):
that Glass House, which is thelargest cannabis cultivator in
the US, was raided by ICE lastweek and there was over 300
arrests from their farm workerteam and unfortunately, to make
matters even worse, that anumber of those people that were
arrested were minors.
So this is a bad look, but itreally is turning into some
(03:49):
political theater betweenPresident Trump and Governor
Newsom throw in kind ofmeanities back and forth at each
other, and I think that what'shappening with these ICE raids
just really undercuts that.
There's a human element to allof this, and what I worry about
(04:10):
is the people that are beingaffected here, and the business
will figure this out, but thesehumans that are getting
separated from their familiesand their lives upended as part
of this political theater justreally makes me crazy.
Ben Larson (04:25):
Yeah, political theater is right.
There's a much different way tohandle this, probably a more
effective way to handle thisJust go to the top, go to the
business.
If you know this is happening,do an injunction on the business
.
And I mean shame on Kyle Kazan,the former cop that is now in
charge of the largest cannabisoperation in California, who
(04:49):
also, I believe, is a Trumpsupporter.
I don't know.
I see a lot of chatter onlinejust about the coordination that
happened here and how they'recoordinating with ICE and I
don't know.
It just reeks to me.
I don't want to spread rumors,but there is a lot of chatter on
X.
You can go on there and checkit out for yourself.
I don't know, this just stinksto me.
I don't want to spread rumors,but there is a lot of Tetra on X
.
You can go on there and checkit out for yourself.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:08):
I don't know, this just stinks to me it does,
and I don't know anything aboutwhere Kyle Kazan's political
leanings are, but what I willsay is that what the data says
is that about 70% of US farmworkers are undocumented
immigrants and it is extremelychallenging to find workers to
fill these types of reallychallenging agricultural jobs,
(05:31):
and there's a reckoning thatneeds to happen as this country
grapples with immigration tofigure out if we're really going
to go after deporting people.
How are we going to fill theseroles?
I don't see americans lining upto fill them well.
Ben Larson (05:47):
also, like how come we can't do it with a bit of
humanity?
Putting kids on blast, that'sjust as bad as as subjecting
them to supposed slave laborright, like you know, using
their faces for propaganda.
It's just wrong for the countryto be dealing with this the way
that they is.
It's just shameful, like.
Let's treat them like humanbeings that deserve at least a
(06:11):
little bit of humanity andrespect.
Sorry, it's just reallyupsetting.
I don't have the words.
What I do see a lot online,what everyone sees online, is
just the response from the MAGA,where it's yes, this is what we
voted for, this is what wewanted.
It's like they're takingAmerican jobs and are they?
Are you going to step up andtake these jobs and get paid
(06:32):
what they're getting paid andhelp produce the food and keep
the prices where you want themso you can purchase them and
live your cushy life?
I don't know.
I don't know what the answer is, but it's not this.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:43):
Yeah, and while I think these actions by
the US government are shamefuland I feel more comfortable
being loud about it than I havebefore because we have to use
our voices here at the same timeI understand that this is just
a bad look for cannabis whenwe're in the midst of really
important federal policydiscussions.
It would be really great ifthis wasn't the case, if there
(07:06):
weren't 300 undocumentedimmigrants just arrested at a
legal cannabis farm.
So I just want us to all dobetter.
I want to have humanity be thething that centers all of us in
this, and I also don't wantbusinesses to be disrupted.
So I'm hoping that we can getthrough this as an industry and
as a country and as humans inthe world.
Ben Larson (07:27):
Yeah, okay, well, we can move on.
Yeah we can move on.
Otherwise we're going to startdropping F-bombs and talking
about the DCC and all that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:36):
Yeah, so why don't you give us an update on
what's happening in DC with thispotential hemp ban that's
moving through appropriationssee with this potential hemp ban
that's moving throughappropriations.
Ben Larson (07:50):
We've touched on it in previous episodes, but the
long story short is MillerAmendment style language was
included into the appropriationsbill, the appropriations bill
that's revisited every year, andso both 2025, which hasn't been
approved yet, and 26, this isall being considered and 26.
This is all being considered,and McConnell, who is famous for
ushering through the 2018 FarmBill that did unlock the current
(08:10):
situation that we areexperiencing with hemp, is also
leading the charge at closingthe quote unquote loophole
through the appropriations bill,and so, being that it's the
same author, and being that hehas the poll that he does, and
so, being that it's the sameauthor, and being that he has
the pull that he does, there isa significant chance that the
language, as it's currentlywritten, might get through.
(08:31):
Now, I know that means it's anexistential threat for a lot of
folks, a lot of folks operatingin the hemp space.
However, there is a year longimplementation period that has
been tacked onto this.
It's already in the languageand it has been signaled,
whether out in the open orbehind the scenes, that that is
a time period where we canreally sit down and discuss how
(08:56):
we want this to roll out and Ican't communicate any assurities
to the community.
I do encourage you to getinvolved with the association
that speaks mostly to yourinterests, whoever that might be
, and make sure that your moneyand your voices are going and
being heard in DC.
Now I do believe that there isa fair amount of momentum in the
(09:22):
hemp space and a fair amount ofstakeholders that agree with
responsible regulations and notcompletely closing the loophole,
and I believe that there is astrong chance that we will see
some form of responsibleregulation being proposed over
the next year instead of acomplete, outright ban.
Is that good enough?
(09:42):
Do you want more detail on thattoo?
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:44):
No, I mean, I think what you're saying is
that you anticipate that thefeds are going to do something
like what Texas is doing, whichenter this period of moving
forward with regulation, and Ilike to hear that confidence
that you think it will happen.
I think that one year delaythat made me feel skeptical
(10:06):
because nothing seems to happenat the federal level within one
year.
But I'm open here and I'mwilling to stay optimistic as
these things unfold.
I think that it's aninteresting moment because so
many people in the hempcommunity have been saying that
the toothpaste is out of thetube, the industry is too big
and people are starting tograpple with the fact that it's
(10:29):
possible that the policymakersdon't see it that way.
Uh, some of this stuff isreally starting to seem like it
has legs yeah, well, here's thething it's like.
Ben Larson (10:40):
Mitch mcconnell has a duty right, and holding
politicians to their duties is awhole other conversation.
But he does represent Kentucky,and I saw recent numbers that
70% of the hemp grown inKentucky is destined for
cannabinoid extraction, and evenif all those cannabinoids are
(11:00):
CBD, it is no secret about wheremost CBD is going these days
are CBD.
It is no secret about wheremost CBD is going these days.
And so, unless you want todramatically impact your own
constituents like there is,there is certainly work to be
done, and I think we're.
This is just the phase ofpolitics we're in.
We're in like this massivepolarizing anchoring, like we
(11:20):
saw in Texas, where it's likewe're going to go all out, ban,
we're going to shut down $5billion of commerce and kill
55,000 jobs, or we're going tolike take a special session and
figure out something thatactually makes sense.
And so this one yearimplementation period probably
is what is going to be thespecial session for this
(11:41):
particular piece of federallegislation.
Of course, we still have thefarm bill to talk about in
September, so there's just a lotto do.
But you know there's enoughstates now and there is enough
commerce to your point wherethis needs to be paid attention
to, and I know a lot of peopledon't like to admit it, or maybe
some people don't even know it,but we have a lot of the
alcohol industry wanting to seethis survive, and I know that's
(12:05):
kind of a double-edged sword.
We constantly talk about notwanting the alcohol industry to
control hemp or control cannabis, but it certainly helps to have
them on our side when it comesto lobbying to keep it free and
open, and so this is the tight,uh, tight rope that we're we're
trying to walk and hopefully, aswe get later into the year, we
(12:26):
have secure updates to transmitto you.
AnnaRae Grabstein (12:28):
Totally.
I think that there was a greatquote that I wanted to read from
a guy called Craig Fox, whowrites about the industry as an
investor and advisor, and hewrote a piece very similar to
others that have been put outthere, but reminding people how
important it is to align withthe trade associations and the
policies that make sense for youand your business.
(12:50):
And he says and to those whosay it's too late and the cat is
already out of the bag, no wayto go backwards, I suggest you
remove your head from your assbefore it's stuck there
permanently.
So yes to what Craig Fox says.
So thank you for that one.
Ben Larson (13:08):
Yeah, love you, craig.
AnnaRae Grabstein (13:11):
Let's get started with our guest today.
You know, ben and I both hailfrom California and we've been
accused of being too West Coastcentric, but we're not, and we
love all markets all around theUS and the globe, and we also
really love data, and so itseemed important and poignant to
(13:32):
make sure that we created anepisode for you guys to really
dive into what's happening inthese really important markets
in the Northeast.
So today we're going to bringon Rick Bashkoff.
He is the CEO of Lit Alert.
He's a seasoned operator withdeep roots in music and media
and venture and tech, and nowhe's turned his attention to
(13:53):
cannabis, helping operators inNew York and New Jersey, amongst
many other markets, makesmarter decisions with data, and
he's got a sharp eye on what'sworking and what's not.
So we thought he'd be great tobring on today and share with us
what's happening.
Rick, welcome to High Spirits.
How are you doing?
Rick Bashkoff (14:09):
Hey Ben and Anna Rae, Good to see you.
Yeah, good.
Thanks for that nice intro.
AnnaRae Grabstein (14:14):
Absolutely.
Ben Larson (14:15):
Rick, it's great to reconnect man.
I feel we always have theserandom encounters at events
around the nation, the first ofwhich was MJ biz in 2019, I
think but now a coordinatedeffort to do it virtually in
front of everyone.
AnnaRae Grabstein (14:32):
So it's good to have you man, good to be with
you guys.
Yeah, so, rick, you've built ina bunch of different industries
.
As we said in the intro, whatbrought you to cannabis and made
you want to jump in and buildsomething here?
Rick Bashkoff (14:45):
I'm a consumer first and foremost, so have been
for a really long time.
That really transformed into apretty sizable passion around
the industry Around 2016,.
I was doing my thing in mediaand tech and was really looking
for know, just candidly, I wasgetting a little older wanted
(15:07):
you know part of my career to tobe something that I was
passionate about.
So I like kind of like checkedout what was happening in
cannabis in 2016 and had like aborderline panic attack, like
thinking I like completelymissed the boat.
There was like so much going onand all this information that I
really didn't have my eye on,and so I was pretty entrenched
in what I was doing then.
So at that time, I made acouple of investments that
(15:30):
helped me get educated.
I was coming from digital mediaand music and things like that.
I didn't think about supplychain or growing a commodity or
anything like that.
So I tried to give myself aneducation through that and
ultimately ended up making thetransition through a venture
capital firm called 5-4 VenturesReally cool group of operators
(15:52):
slash investors.
Their main focus is onincubating concepts and they
were looking at cannabis.
So I joined them.
That was my first full-timefocused job in cannabis.
We ran smack into COVID.
Full-time, focused job incannabis.
We kind of ran smack into COVID.
But before that happened in2019 is when I met Ben working
for that company and I was outthere on a fact-finding mission
(16:12):
about all different form factorsbecause we were incubating all
these different types ofconcepts.
So I was trying to get a senseof pricing of inputs and kind of
the realities of each of thoseform factors and then from there
kind of just been investing intech side of the business since
and now you're the CEO ofLitAlerts, correct, give us a
quick download on LitAlerts, andthen I have a question already
(16:34):
queued up in my head for you,yeah sure.
So pretty straightforward.
So we're a data company, smallsoftware company.
We're pretty new.
So you've got like the headsets, bdsas of the world, who really
did the tough work in thebeginning, right Of getting the
first data set into market, andthen you've had others like
pistol and hoodie and othersthat have kind of layered on top
(16:56):
of that.
So we entered pretty late inthe game.
So we're relatively new.
We've been commercializing asoftware for about a year and a
half, but we saw a uniqueopportunity A to build a
software company in 2024 is verydifferent than when a lot of
these companies got started, buton top of it, we saw a specific
opportunity around buildingaction item and decision-making
(17:20):
focused interfaces, because oneof the things that we observed
in market was I can't takecredit for this, this is really
the co-founders.
What they observed was a lot offolks using data.
Most of them were like theexecutives.
Maybe there was a data focusedperson, maybe some of the middle
managers, but nobody who's onthe ground was really using this
the sellers, account managers,brand ambassadors, inventory
(17:42):
managers, buyers, and so that'swhere we've kind of tried to
focus on is making these verysimple UIs that can really act
as a pocket tool.
I mean the average time spentin our app is less than 15
minutes.
So our whole kind of productvision is around folks that can
answer their questions veryquickly, but then of course also
(18:03):
more robust features that theexecutives and questions very
quickly, but then of course alsomore robust features that the
executives and analysts can use.
Ben Larson (18:08):
Interesting, and so you mentioned building a tech
company in 2024 is verydifferent than, say, 2018.
And part of that is probablythe capital landscape and I'm
curious because I know thatLittle Earths you've kind of
grown it organicallybootstrapped.
You came from the venture side.
Tell me a little bit about thatdynamic, whether it's the
(18:31):
current landscape or even justthe team's philosophy around
raising money and the need to doso.
Rick Bashkoff (18:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's largely as you said.
The landscape has changed,right when I was coming up in
tech and I made a transitionfrom music into kind of software
, early stage tech in 2008.
And back then, you know, smartpeople from Google were raising
money with an idea on the backof a napkin, right, like that
(18:58):
was actually happening, right.
So you've got very easy capitalto hire a few engineers, build
a prototype, put around withproduct market fit.
You kind of have like 18 to 24months to do that.
That was really what a seedround was for.
You know, fast forward to today, that capital is not really
there, right, and so I can eventell you, as an investor, I'm
(19:21):
looking for companies thatalready have customers, because
it's just so easy to build aprototype today with off the
shelf tools and bring somethingto market.
I'm specifically talking aboutsoftware, not talking about
hardware.
I'm specifically talking aboutsoftware.
I'm not talking about hardware.
I'm not talking about anythingelse in the canvas industry.
I'm specifically talking aboutsoftware.
Prototyping something has neverbeen easier.
(19:41):
We're doing it constantly, andI can talk a little bit about
the tools that we use to do it,but just I'll give you a very
quick example.
At LitAlerts, we're very focusedon we're not just resting on
one thing, so we like to committo prototyping one or two brand
new things a year.
So in Vegas we got together asa whole team and we sat together
(20:04):
.
We did a big brainstorm sessionand we came up with a concept
that leverages some of ourcurrent technology and we went
from that meeting to a prototypein three months and that's with
a portion of our time, becauseobviously 95% of our time is
going towards little alerts.
But we've got a website with aweb form and we've got a very
(20:27):
simple email service that runsfor consumers.
The service is called Turpog.
You can visit it at turpogcom.
It's largely like kind of we'retinkering with it right now,
but the concept is you can, as acustomer, you can just
subscribe to a very simple emailthat tells you where your
favorite products are availablearound town.
You know that type ofprototyping was not possible 10
(20:49):
years ago, and so starting acompany in software nowadays is
completely different than when Iwas schooled in it.
Our back office is completelyautomated.
We're six nerds trying to findways to minimize tasks and using
every off-the-shelf AIcapability we can on the
automation side and we're aboutto get really focused on the AI
(21:13):
applications, on the actual dataproduct that we have.
But yeah, I mean, it'scompletely different now and I
wouldn't say that you don't haveto raise money.
I think that's kind of like anoverstatement.
I think maybe you know LittleAlerts would be open to raising
capital if it made sense, if wethought that, you know, we could
scale a team.
But the terms that areavailable right now are, are,
(21:34):
are, are fairly, they're notadvantageous for founders.
Let's put it that way.
AnnaRae Grabstein (21:40):
Nerds are so cool.
I I'm one also, so I I lovethat you self-identify, and as
does your team, as nerds so coolstuff, you know.
Let's let's like dive intotalking about some of this data
stuff, because data is bothimportant and imperfect, and I
think that in cannabis I oftenhear I work with operators,
(22:03):
retailers, supply chain peopleand folks love to share the data
when it looks good and when itdoesn't look good, they love to
tell me how the data is totallyinaccurate and headset doesn't
understand or the BDSA is wrong.
I would love it if you coulddemystify a little bit about how
the data that we use incannabis is sourced and even how
(22:27):
that might be different fromthe data that people are used to
from Nielsen and IRI andbroader CPG spaces.
Rick Bashkoff (22:35):
Yeah, sure, I mean, look, I think I'll
actually go the opposite way andjust kind of, it's all very
similar, right?
The concept and you probablyremember this from long ago in
school, right?
Is any market data company istaking a sample of data and
extrapolating the rest, right, Idon't care if we're talking
about Nielsen ratings, I don'tcare if we're talking about the
(22:55):
US census, right, like, anythingthat you're quoting is taking a
sample of data and it'sextrapolating, right.
And so every time that you reada report that has some data in
it that X percent of people do Y, right, you know, scroll to the
bottom they interviewed 1500people, right?
And so I think that it's reallyimportant to to understand that
(23:18):
getting the universe of data Idon't care if your headset, bdsa
, the fir, like kind of the I'dsay, the founding data providers
in cannabis or pistol or hoodieor can menus or any of the
other I, I, we personally feellike we're all perfectly capable
.
Yes, we've seen our personallyfeel like we're all perfectly
capable.
Yes, we've seen ourcompetitors' data sets.
We're all pretty close, to beperfectly honest with you, and
(23:40):
the idea here is that there'sjust different ways of taking a
sample of data.
Like Sai from Headset, had agreat talk at Benzinga this year
, and one of the things wereally admire about Headset is
they're pretty transparent aboutwhat they have right.
They even say right on we covera third of transactions, right,
that's what we have access to.
So that means that the othertwo thirds 90% accurate,
(24:15):
especially in the face of 0%visibility.
So I think that sometimes whenI'm speaking to customers,
they'll ask me about a similartopic and specifically if it's a
right, I'm like listen.
The only way this is all ahundred percent accurate is if
(24:35):
retailers, out of the goodnessof their heart, agree to donate
their transaction data to somecentralized pool that all of us
nerds can develop on Right.
But that's not going to happen.
And so you know what we try anddo is.
So we look at.
We use a technique called webcrawling, others like Headset
and BDSA and do is so we look at.
We use a technique called webcrawling.
Others like Headset and BDSAand others have direct hooks
(24:56):
into POS some percentage of that.
But what we're looking at onthe website is we're looking for
changes that happen.
So when we get a retailer thatcomes to us for a demo, they'll
say you know, where are yougetting my data from?
I'm like I'm visiting yourwebsite a couple times a day
just to see what's happening.
Products are changing, pricingchanging, available quantities
changing, and we've just built avery sophisticated suite of
(25:21):
algorithms that takes thatinformation and predicts what's
happening in the store.
We're usually in the 70 to 90%accuracy range and we do three
levels of checks, as I'm sureour competitors do as well.
We look at the state any statereports which are kind of here
nor there.
To be honest, some states arepretty good about it, Others are
not.
We have unit tests that runthat are looking for anomalies.
And then the third is like wehave customers who are
(25:44):
constantly reporting anomaliesto us and we use all that
information to just increase theaccuracy.
And I think that's anotherimportant point, Anna Rae is
that when you're working withany type of market data, you
should feel the empowerment toreach out to folks at the
company when you see somethinglike that, because it's probably
an opportunity to learnsomething about the market, some
(26:06):
nuance, something that can helpthe data set overall.
So, yeah, that's my kind oflike overall on like how these
data tools again, I don't careif this is Nielsen, I don't care
if this is the US Census.
This is how market data isachieved is by taking a sample
of data and predicting the rest.
So that's my spiel on it.
Ben Larson (26:28):
So you bring up this interesting point.
The states actually have gooddata because we have track and
trace systems in every state andsome states do put out
reporting, which I think isgreat, and I know Canada does as
well, or at least Ontario.
Have the nerds collectivelycome together and maybe try to
(26:48):
lobby the states to unlock thedata data that is available in,
say, metric.
I know we had michael johnsonon from from metric and he was
saying that a lot of that isbecause in the contracts the
states have like locked up thedata and it says it's anonymized
.
But it's like man, what atreasure trove.
If they could just unlock themetric data and make that
(27:11):
available to data companies thatare crunching the numbers, then
we would have hyper accuratenumbers.
Rick Bashkoff (27:16):
No, totally.
Look.
I mean, that is like the dreamscenario for us and our
competitors is that there issome structured data set that we
can just then compete onfeatures and functionality,
right, it's important toremember that the merchant data
is actually owned by theretailer, and so that's really
what stands in the way of any.
(27:37):
In my understanding, from alegal perspective, what stands
in the way is that the retailersactually have to opt that data
in.
So when you hear even POSsystems talking about their data
, a lot of that data actuallybelongs to the retailer.
Now, if the three of us put onour retailer hat like you have
to ask yourself, depending onwhat you're getting out of a
(27:58):
tool, are you in a rush to giveup your transaction data?
Right, and if you are, what areyou?
What do you want in return forthat?
And so I think that you knowwhat we've observed is that
retailers seem to be less andless willing to share that
transactional data, and that'swhere I've seen lit alerts kind
(28:19):
of win some retailer customersin that they're like you know
what.
You're visiting my website acouple times a day.
I don't really have to showeveryone everything.
Everyone kind of understandsthat this is directional, so I
feel more comfortable with this.
On the other hand, again, likeI would love it if we had some
type of requirement thatretailers had to deliver data in
a specific format.
(28:39):
But I think that the ownershipand the retailer opt-in, I think
is really what I don't want tosay stands in the way of that.
Because, personally, like again, if we put our retailer hat on,
like I get it.
I really do understand aretailer who's not in a rush to
kind of share their you knowtheir whole that's the treasure
trove of their business, rightis their customer transaction
(29:00):
data, and so, of course, thecustomers own their own personal
, you know, pii, but the actualrecords of the transactions,
that's merchant data.
Ben Larson (29:08):
So, whether it's 70% or 100% in some dream scenario,
when it comes to accuracy, itis basically a somewhat level
playing field, and some peoplemight argue that, but let's just
assume that it's a levelplaying field between all the
data companies of the of theplatform and how people are
(29:35):
using it, and so I'm curious asto you know, maybe a specific
example like what?
What's a unique way that thatexcites you about how someone's
using your platform anddecisions they're making around
around their business?
Rick Bashkoff (29:44):
Yeah, so one of the reasons the company was
named lit alerts is that one ofthe big visions around the
product is to actually bringthis information to these users
without having them have to loginto a dashboard, right, and so
we started with dashboards,because that's what people are
really used to, right.
So we have some very simpledashboards in our web app, but
(30:08):
we launched a beta feature lastyear which is a morning email
alert for brands and wholesalers, and what it specifically does
is it gives them a signal everymorning as to whether or not a
specific retailer is running lowor has run completely out of
stock on a product, and so nowyou have account execs who are
(30:28):
located all over a state who aregetting an email every morning.
That gives them kind of a onelook no different than browsing
another email in the inbox inthe morning of where their
opportunities are, and so that,in particular, has been so
popular that we will now,sometime early in the fall,
we're going to actually pullthat out as its own feature, and
(30:49):
notifications within our appare going to get far more robust
.
But I think that kind of set usapart, because that was one of
the first kind of like datacoming at you experiences A lot
of these account execs andaccount managers and brand
ambassadors.
Right, you're a brandambassador, you're going to set
up a standup.
(31:10):
If you get an idea of youraccounts are running low, right,
you can, you can make thatinformation available, right?
I'd say that that kind ofpushing information out has been
one way that our customers havesaid we've kind of stood out a
bit and then simplicity is likeour thing, right?
It's like people are in and outof this.
(31:30):
In five minutes I'm I'mliterally parked in front of a
dispensary.
I open up my phone because Iwant to know a part of my pitch
is how my competitors are priced.
Five minutes before the meeting, I'm opening up, I'm looking at
a couple key screens that showhow my competitors are priced at
this store and then I'm walkinginto the meeting, right?
(31:51):
So I'd say that those likereally tight use cases that
we're hearing about, wherepeople are jumping in, getting
an answer to their questionimproves their pitch, improves
the structure of their day,their route.
Actually, right, like, whichaccounts are they going to
prioritize?
Those are the things that we'reafter.
Very cool.
AnnaRae Grabstein (32:08):
Well, so let's dive into talking about
two of these hot state markets.
Well, so let's dive intotalking about two of these hot
state markets New York and NewJersey.
And there's been this crazybuzz around these markets and
the industry and there's been alot of challenges, and I would
(32:31):
love for you to share whatyou're seeing.
What are some of the key datapoints that you're watching?
You know, I I've, I've wasn'treally sure how the MSO
dominance that that has beenpreexisting in the New Jersey
medical market was going to playout with the launch of adult
use and dispensaries.
And and then in New York andNew Jersey, there's this
proliferation of illicit marketcannabis that was being sold in
(32:51):
bodegas and smoke shops and allover the place.
It's just, it's been a hard topredict market, but it's
starting to make more sense.
So tell us how you make senseof it.
What are you paying attentionto?
Rick Bashkoff (33:04):
Yeah, uh, I will talk about New York and New
Jersey cannabis all day, by theway, so message to you and your
listeners anytime you want tohave me back, um, so it's, it's
me back.
So I've been in the cannabisspace for almost six years now,
and it was lonely the firstthree years, right, it was like
we're all flying out to the WestCoast to get part of the action
(33:24):
, and so it's our time out hereas kind of like the growth
markets.
Many of the markets in the West, and maybe even, arguably, a
few in the Midwest, are becomingmature now.
So everyone's looking forgrowth and it's here, but it's
not as fast as you'd like it tobe.
(33:44):
So New York now has over 400retail locations open, and so
we're starting to see some ofthe effects of location density
prices coming down as well, andNew York's been tough man.
The delays on the retail side.
They're crushing.
(34:05):
They're not only crushing, mostimportantly from a financial
and a mental health perspective,but the right, a lot of these
folks who've been sitting onthese locations for years.
It's now time to open.
They've been beaten up for awhile, right, and so I think we
need to give a lot of theseoperators a little bit more time
(34:25):
than we would expect in othermarkets to really find their
footing, because it's been avery, very bumpy ride.
And so take one of ourco-founders, nate.
He just opened his store BloomBrothers New York yesterday.
It's a three and a half yearprocess, and so they're just
getting to welcome customers,and so that fatigue on the
(34:46):
market I think you really hearin the operators, both on the
brand and the retail side.
There's arguments about howmany stores we need.
Right, it's everything from1500 to no.
I think we'll probably top outat 500, 600.
But you hit it, anna Rae.
I think that the highlight ofthe problems is the illicit
(35:06):
stores.
My personal opinion is theillicit stores that look like
legal stores are the mainproblem.
Right, there's definitely goingto be a healthy illicit market,
particularly in the New YorkCity area.
It's a big part of the culture,a very vast and sophisticated
delivery network.
But that's not really what I'mtalking about here.
(35:28):
I'm talking about standing on acorner in Manhattan and looking
in at a beautiful dispensarywith deli-style top-shelf indoor
buds.
None of that, by the way, isavailable and allowed in the New
York regulated market, and sothat's what I'm talking about,
because I'm blown away that thatexists, but the customer has no
(35:51):
idea.
So they're walking in, theythink they're in a legal shop
and those are the stores that Ithink are really hurting a lot
of the growth potential forthese stores, and I'm in
agreement with many of theoperators and ancillary
providers that are focused onthe state who are really pushing
(36:12):
for more enforcement there.
It's New York, so there'sobviously some controversy
around it, there's some lawsuitsin play, but I just think that
if we're being honest and wewant to market and you want
people to invest their time andtheir careers, you can't have
(36:32):
someone playing by differentrules right next door.
It's just not how businessworks, unfortunately, yeah.
Ben Larson (36:40):
Rick, you talk about sitting on the sidelines and
watching and visiting us here onthe West Coast and taking notes
, waiting for your turn.
Rough rollouts, a rampantillicit market, finding the
balance of what's enoughdispensaries.
I hate to say it, but this iskind of like a common theme as
we kind of work our way throughlegalization in various states.
(37:01):
I'm curious as to what weresome of your observations of
what was happening on the WestCoast and how that kind of set
your expectations for what youwere going to experience on the
East Coast and now that you'reliving it, what might be
different than what you wereexpecting.
Unpack that a little bit.
Rick Bashkoff (37:22):
You know, beyond these challenges, that, yeah,
like I said, has kind of becomenormalized, uh, in the cannabis
industry yeah, I mean, look, I,you know pretty, uh, I think I'm
known as a pretty upfront andhonest person like we didn't
listen, you know, like we didn't, we didn't learn much from from
the west coast markets and it's, it's disappointing, you know
(37:43):
we're, we're definitely we,we've got, uh, you know, one of
the states that we're talkingabout here is talking about
raising taxes, right, so we'renot learning much and it's
painful.
So that's my answer.
Ben is, I think, the thing thatsurprised me most from the
regulatory perspective.
There was opportunity to meetwith others who had done it, who
(38:05):
had been there, and definitelynotes were not taken, definitely
not put into play, and so Ithink we're running into a lot
of the same problems that otherstates are and we've complicated
it even further in many caseshere in New York, and then New
Jersey's done a little bit, hasgone a little bit of a different
path.
So there, as Anna Rae pointedout, there was a dominance of
(38:28):
the medical operators and theMSOs.
That's changed in the last 12months.
You've had an influx of someestablished national brands.
I know everyone still likes toclaim that we don't have
national brands in cannabis, butwe do.
If you watch the way some ofthese.
If you watch the way Miss Grassentered New Jersey, you know
(38:51):
that we have national brandshere.
You know if you watch the waythat some of the brand, like
Rove, how they've entered someof these East Coast markets like
there are national brands incannabis and you know, I think,
what has been really excitingabout New Jersey and I don't
care how much heat I take onthis in New York I drive across
the bridge to buy weed sometimesbecause there's pretty serious
(39:18):
West Coast growers who have comeEast and are actually very
focused on New Jersey.
So you've got the group of,like Clay Nine have come out and
they zoomed up the charts onthe flower side and it's now
basically just them, gardenGreens and MSOs.
So you've had a bunch of theseout of state brands who have
(39:42):
found good manufacturingpartners and have really found
their path in New Jersey.
One other thing that I think isreally important to point out
about New Jersey is there isthis group of independent
retailers in New Jersey that arenot only just fine operators,
they all know each other andthey're all sharing best
practices.
You talk to them, they all knoweach other and it's really
(40:05):
created a pretty awesomecommunity.
So some of these folks Molly,ann Farms, primo, nirvana,
there's all these stores thathave really they're in the top
20, top 25.
And not only are they drivingserious top line revenue, these
are companies that are lookingat their second and third
(40:26):
locations, and so you know, Ithink, that there is a lot of
them carry MSO products too,right.
But there's a New Jersey strongkind of community going here
Again.
Like all of that positivity ismet with, like I just mentioned,
there's discussions of taxraises.
There's massive opt out issuesin New Jersey as well, as you
(40:47):
know, as the party's over interms of premium pricing, so
that party's over.
AnnaRae Grabstein (40:53):
So I do want to talk about category trends,
but before that I want to put alittle bit of a deeper dive into
the New York and New Jerseyretail store performance.
You guys track revenue perstore in an aggregate way, where
you're tracking performanceacross these markets, and I'd
(41:13):
love it if you could just sharesome data with our listeners
about what you're seeing at aretail store level perspective,
about kind of top line revenuethat is impactful in the market.
What's sort of the range of anunderperforming store and
overperforming store, what'saffecting those types of
performance metrics?
Rick Bashkoff (41:34):
Sure.
So you know, look, I think thatyou know for us, the area that
you know we're pretty focused onis, let's call it, the
Northeast and Mid-Atlantic.
And so if you look at, you knowthe major growth markets in
that area New York, new Jerseyand Maryland you see some
similar patterns.
But it's important to note thatyou know Maryland.
(41:56):
So the way we look at it interms of quartiles right, so
like what quartile is your storea part of gives you a.
It gives retailers a good sensethat's the purpose of
publishing this data is likegiving a retailer like, okay,
across the state, kind of what,where am I in the top 25%?
You know, but kind of 25 to 50,like where are we in the state?
And in Maryland that firstquartile is leading the pack by
(42:19):
a long shot.
You know we're talking.
You know 1.3, 1.4 million amonth in gross sales and
Jersey's actually not far behindin that top quartile and in
like a couple hundred thousanddollars behind but over a
million a month in averageretail revenue.
But then you look at a statelike Massachusetts that mature
(42:39):
in that top quartile, falls downbelow 700,000 per month.
And one thing that's a littleconcerning is that if we look at
New York and one thing that's alittle concerning is that if we
look at New York, new York,that top quartile is not in that
neighborhood.
With New Jersey and Marylandit's really kind of more on the
Massachusetts level of kind ofthe $600,000 to $700,000 a month
(43:02):
.
Now there's lots of spread inthat top quartile mainly because
of Long Island, of spread inthat top quartile mainly because
of Long Island.
So Long Island just for thelisteners, long Island is this
absolute.
There's no better place in theworld to try and make money in
cannabis right now because it'sone of the most populous.
It is the most populous.
Nassau and Suffolk County arethe two most populous counties
(43:24):
beyond the boroughs of New YorkCity and they have some of the
highest income per familyhousehold and there's eight
dispensaries on the entireisland.
And so those stores are, youknow, a lot of them are in kind
of the stratosphere, multiplemillion dollars a month in sales
.
But as you kind of travel downthese quartiles a different
(43:47):
story starts to play out.
So New Jersey and New York, forexample, on the bottom end of
the quartiles they're neck andneck and that's kind of like
your 50 to 60 grand a monthstore.
But then if you look at andMassachusetts is in that realm
as well, but you look atMaryland, they are smoking.
So if you're in the bottomquartile in Maryland, you're
(44:09):
still pulling in $300,000,$400,000 a month in top line
revenue.
So what are the things that wesee here that affects this size
store count?
So if you look across here, theaverage stores per quartile are
incredibly low in Maryland, solower store count, they're
capturing broader parts of thatstate.
(44:29):
The largest stores per quartileare in New York and
Massachusetts and that's whereyou saw that leveling off in
that first quartile.
So it's very clear that thereis an effect of and this is not
anything anybody didn't know.
This is more confirming, right,that the store density plays a
major role in the performance ofthese stores.
(44:49):
Now, what does this not takeinto account?
Of course, this doesn't takeinto account things we were
talking about before, right,efforts to transfer people from
the illicit market to the legalmarket, how those efforts are
going in each of the states,right, like I think New York
probably has the worst of theproblems in that realm.
So I think there's a lot offactors that could affect these
numbers as we continue to trackthem.
Ben Larson (45:11):
What about product form factor Like?
How does that influence theperformance of these stores,
especially in comparison to theAlyssa market?
Are you making those, thosekinds of comparisons?
Rick Bashkoff (45:22):
Yeah.
So I'll say this right, likepeople, when people think of New
York, it's hey, I'm walkinghere, it's New York city, but
right.
But big state, right, you'vegot the Hudson Valley, you have
capital region, you have theSyracuse and Rochester area,
rochester areas, and thenBuffalo may as well be in the
Midwest.
I mean it's a very, very big,big state.
(45:45):
And so those different areasare commanding different form
factors.
You see, in the city, the muchmore social form factors, the
vapes and edibles, are taking upa larger share, whereas you
move north, flour takes overmore of the share, because those
convenience factors become lessand less important if you're
not in a crowded city, right,you also, I think there's
(46:08):
something.
So we're trying to look intothis.
We're still developing a methodto do so.
But you've got a commutingpopulation, right, that are
picking up their cannabis in NewYork city, but they're
traveling back to New Jersey andConnecticut.
Right.
And because these states are soclose, we're trying to
understand the effect of theysee one set of brands in New
(46:32):
York City and then they see acompletely different set, in
certain cases a completelydifferent set of brands if they
visit their retailer at home.
That's 20 minutes away.
The products and form factors.
Last thing I'll mention I don'tknow if this is form factors,
but New York is incrediblylimited on indoor canopy per the
(46:54):
regulations, and so the onlyfolks who have large enough
indoor canopy to be dangerousare the ROs, the registered
organizations.
They're the original medicaloperators and for the most part,
you can literally just map anRO to an MSO, and so most of the
(47:14):
indoor product is actuallystill coming from MSO growers.
Now that's changing a littlebit.
And now this is where me, as aconsumer, I'm weighing in a
little bit.
Here You've got micro licensesand micro growers that are
coming on, and now, while theydo have the option to go fully
vertical, many of them are justchoosing, and I they these are a
lot of these are legacy playersthat are finding this and
(47:37):
coming over and doing smallbatch with their whatever canopy
they can, right.
So you've got folks like leadfarmer and collector who have
put out some some pretty fireproduct actually, um, and they
have the capability of of ofgrowing indoor, but for the most
part, um, the product here ismixed light, greenhouse, um, and
(47:58):
we don't have the growth seasonthat the West coast States do,
right, and so I don't have totell you how old some of this
weed is that people are smoking,um so so that's kind of some of
the product form and productlimitations around what could be
affecting some of these retailnumbers, to be perfectly honest.
Because let's get real, if youlive in Long Island and you go
to the dispensary a couple oftimes and your dealer has better
(48:20):
weed, you're probably goingback to that dealer right, well,
so let's dive into that alittle more.
AnnaRae Grabstein (48:25):
So you talked about the stores, you talked
about the form factors, kind ofthe categories, but what about
the brands?
I know that you're trackingbrand performance and watching
as brands move to the topquickly, because we don't have a
ton of time left, but I wouldlove to have you call out some
of the big exploding surprisesas brands have come into these
(48:49):
markets.
Maybe a couple in New York anda couple in New Jersey.
Rick Bashkoff (48:53):
Yeah, so it's super cool.
In New York the three topbrands are all New York born and
bred Heirloom, which isactually so.
I'm from upstate New York, soI'm actually familiar.
The company behind Heirloom isBeacon Skift, kind of a staple
in New.
Ben Larson (49:08):
York.
Yeah, shout out to Matt Huberand the team.
Rick Bashkoff (49:10):
Yeah, apple Orchards.
As a kid they've been in thehard cider game.
They've got a great business sothey're in the top spot.
They've done a fantastic jobwith branding and distribution.
Their head of sales, nick, is atotal mastermind and so they've
done great.
Dank, by definition, is kind ofthe flower brand produced by
(49:34):
HPI Canna, and then Jaunty.
Jaunty is a great.
They're a top vape brand.
They also produce gummies andconcentrates, but one of the
original hemp producers andlicenses.
So it's a great story thatthey've taken one of the top
spots.
Most of the New York operatorsare in the top position.
(49:56):
You know, if you're looking atjust, you know street units sold
or revenue sold In New Jerseyit's a little bit of a different
story.
So the MSO has got quite a bigstart there.
So you know you've got Ozoneand Rhythm who are still the top
players there.
But a couple of call-outs thatI think are really worth it I
mentioned Miss Grass before whoreally came in and killed it on
(50:17):
the pre-roll side, garden Greensand Clay Nine on the flower
side are kind of.
Now they have this kind ofgroundswell of awareness and
they've really become some ofthe top shelf go-tos.
And then on the vape side, manFernway.
This was very impressive.
I'm talking like three monthswhen they entered New Jersey,
(50:38):
skyrocketed to the top andthey've stayed there.
Really, really pretty brilliantpiece of work there by that
marketing team, marketing team.
But yeah, if you were to breakdown into specific categories,
like edibles in New Jersey, yousee the usual suspects taking
over.
So like Gruen, juana Wild,camino, right, and there are
(50:58):
spots that you'd imagine them onthe edible side in New York.
I'm sorry in New Jersey, butwhat's curious is most of those
brands are in New York as well.
And you've got Off Hours, whichis a great New York edibles
brand.
Heirloom, jaunty are up therein the top.
But you're starting to seeGruen Wild, camus.
You're seeing more of theout-of-state brands have success
(51:20):
in New York in the edibles sideof the business than in the
vapes and um and flower side.
New jersey's a little bit moremore open.
But um, yeah, rumor has it thatuh, jeter is launching in new
york soon.
So I'm very, very interested tosee that uh, that play out um as
(51:41):
a, as just kind of like a againas a data nerd, but um, it's
really interesting to see theseWest Coast brands enter the East
Coast markets and see thetactics that they use.
I mean, again, we're largelyjust observers as a data company
, but it's really interesting tobe able to observe and really
fun to be able to report on.
(52:02):
Yeah.
Ben Larson (52:02):
Well, I really appreciate the deep dive there
and I'm imagining all these bargraphs kind of constantly moving
over time.
Those visualizations that peoplecreate.
That kind of like shows thingsover time Really cool.
Rick, as we approach the end ofthe hour, I just would love to
hear your broader observation ofthe space.
You've had all these differentroles.
(52:23):
You're now the CEO of a datacompany.
You're anticipating a lot ofchanges as West Coast meets East
Coast.
What's your advice to operatorsout there that are working
their way through the cannabisindustry right now?
Rick Bashkoff (52:37):
Yeah, I mean without swearing, I'll use F,
but F the noise is really thebit of advice that I've gotten
in my time on earth in a coupleof things, personal and
professional, and I think thatapplies here.
Most great life-changing kindof world-changing opportunities
have two steps forward, one stepback, and we are certainly in
(53:00):
one step back territory rightnow.
So it's really easy to betaking hits from maybe your
friends who went and started adifferent business and it's
doing much better right now, buteverything's only as good as
the current snapshot.
And so I think, like, if you'refocusing on your, on being a
bottom line operator, you knowdoing everything you can, uh,
(53:20):
because it's, it's never harder,right.
Then, uh, then, operating acannabis business, business, the
turn of profit, a profit, right, when I tell friends and
families that license holderspay taxes on gross profit,
people fall out of their chairs,right, like it's.
It's just, we've had so manythings against us and I think
you know, like I definitelythought 280e would be gone by
(53:40):
now.
I, you know, I've been, I'vebeen wrong enough in this
industry that I kind of chuckleevery time I run across someone
who's like I've seen this playout before, this is how it's
going to happen and whatever.
And it's like man.
I've been in this industry forsix years and I've gone the
opposite direction.
If I feel conviction, I nowquestion myself because I
predicted so many times, right,that that so-and-such was going
(54:02):
to happen, and so I think likethat's it.
You know, just F the noise.
You know, focus on thefundamentals of your business Um
, trying not to listen to toomany people who don't operate
cannabis and your spot ofcannabis, right, like, uh, you
know I don't have any greatadvice for cultivators and I
don't pretend to.
You know, if you're a softwarecompany, if you're an early
stage company, I have somethoughts for you that might help
(54:22):
.
But you know, really, onlylisten to people in your circle
who are doing what you're doing.
Yeah, I think that's my, that'smy bit of advice is just like
there's a lot of noise right now.
You know whether it's hempversus regulated cannabis,
what's Trump going to do?
You know terrible topics thatyou guys covered at the top.
You know all of it has to be,you know, ingested and taken for
(54:43):
what it's worth.
But you got to keep your eyeright on the numbers and right
on the operations and becustomer obsessed.
You know, just be customerobsessed, whatever, whoever your
customer is.
That's the way, that's the wayforward, because you know
technology and features and allthose things are going to become
commoditized.
You know, just focus on thesimple things.
AnnaRae Grabstein (55:03):
That's.
That's great advice, rick.
We really appreciate it.
And yeah, fuck the noise.
I said it.
We already went explicit, so Ilove it.
Just for the last call, yougave some great advice already.
What's a good way for ourlisteners to find you and get in
touch if they want to follow upor learn more about what you're
up to?
Rick Bashkoff (55:22):
Sure, yeah, just, you can sign up for a free
trial for Lit Alerts right onour website.
So we give a 30 day free trial.
We try and earn our spot in thetech stack.
I'm also approachable onLinkedIn.
I actually check my inbox and Iknow everyone's bitching and
moaning about it right now, butit's one of the only places we
can connect.
So uh, I'm there.
Uh, I'm checking my my inboxand responding there.
(55:44):
So yeah, hit me up if you'vegot questions about data or
you'd like to take a look at litalerts or anything else about
the cannabis industry.
Ben Larson (55:51):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, rick.
That conversation was lit.
Yeah, well done.
Good job, joe, ken.
All right, we'll catch up soon,man.
All right, folks, what do youthink?
Let us know.
Please engage, follow us onLinkedIn, watch the live
recording and leave yourcomments and we'll answer your
(56:11):
questions online.
Don't forget our 100th episode.
We have a little bit of aM-A-A-U-A.
Ask us anything, so send inyour questions, we'll give you
all the links, all that kind ofstuff.
Thank you to our families, ourfriends and our colleagues at
Virtosa and Wolfmeyer and, ofcourse, our producer, eric
Rossetti.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please drop a review, a rating
(56:36):
Apple Podcasts, spotify,wherever you listen to your
podcasts.
It helps listeners like andfind our content and helps us
grow.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and, most
importantly, keep your spirits.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and, most
importantly, keep your spiritshigh Until next time.
That's the show.
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