Mack Hueber from Ayrloom shares the remarkable story of how a 114-year-old apple orchard transformed into New York's leading cannabis brand while navigating the complex regulatory landscape of hemp and THC beverages.
• Ayrloom emerged from Beak & Skiff, a century-old family-run apple orchard that expanded into cider, spirits, coffee, and eventually hemp and cannabis
• Mack explains how the company leverages its beverage production expertise to create innovative cannabis products like their signature Honeycrisp THC drink
• New York's cannabis regulations recently changed, potentially impacting over 100 dispensaries due to school/church proximity rules
• The three-tier distribution model in alcohol provides insights for how the cannabis beverage market might effectively develop
• Cannabis beverages are gaining mainstream acceptance with Mack noting they've gone from receiving hate mail to thank you notes
• Mack's leadership approach involves bringing in experts from outside cannabis who bring specialized knowledge while learning about the plant
• The future of cannabis beverages includes innovations like de-alcoholized hard cider infused with THC and CBC
• Mack remains optimistic about cannabis beverages, stating "the category is here to stay" and "we're still in the first inning"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mack Hueber (00:00):
we're seeing much less hate mail and more
appreciative thank you emails.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:06):
Hey friends, I'm Anna Rae, co-host of High
Spirits Pod, and we are hittingour 100th episode on August 5th.
We kind of can't believe it,but it's true.
Thanks for coming along for theride, thanks for being a part
of building this community.
Engaging with us.
It really, really means a lot.
We are opening it up to you,our listeners, in hopes that you
(00:28):
will ask us questions.
Anything that you want to knowabout us, about what we think
about the industry, reallyanything.
You can submit your questionsby going to highspiritspodcom
slash ask, and you can submitaudio questions or send us a
text, and your submission mighteven end up on the podcast.
(00:48):
We are incredibly grateful forall of the guests who have
joined us over the past twoyears, all of the listeners that
have joined us.
You guys are an incrediblegroup of people that are trying
to up-level what you know aboutcannabis, think about things in
a new way, and we're just reallyglad to be along for the ride.
Ben Larson (01:14):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 99.
99 of High Spirits.
It's Tuesday, july 29, 2025.
I'm Ben Larson and today I'mjoined by Mac Huber.
Anna Rae's out.
She's traveling.
I don't know where she is.
Anna Rae, come back.
We got 99 episodes but Anna Raeain't on this one.
(01:38):
All right, I'm going to bringMac Huber on.
Mac Huber, heirloom out of NewYork.
Mac, welcome to the show, Ben,glad to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
So good to see you, man.
I'm really excited to jump inand have you be my co-host today
, or guest, whatever you want toidentify as, but we've known
each other in the space forquite some time, so it's really
(02:00):
special to have you on rightbefore we tick over into this
100th episode, as Anna Rae wasleading us in with so super
stoked to have you on.
We're going to dive into allthings New York, hemp, cannabis,
anything else, summer vacations, whatever you want to talk
about.
I'm here for it all.
But maybe we start with thenews yeah, typical news week in
the cannabis industry Bigsurprise that Terrence Cole, the
(02:23):
new head of the DEA, isdeciding not to prioritize
rescheduling.
Who knows how long that lastsfor or how true that is, but
it's not on his list.
So womp, womp.
What else Texas, texas isTexas-ing?
We're going from ban to vetoback to darn near close to a ban
(02:44):
, it sounds like, but there's alot of backroom conversations
happening there.
How closely are you followingTexas?
Mack Hueber (02:50):
I am following it For your listeners.
We're not in that market, butobviously it's a market that we
were hoping to jump into priorto this legislative mess this
spring.
I think we're just kind oflooking at it as what that means
for additional states andreally at the federal level.
I think what we're seeing thisweek with the news is just the
(03:14):
lawmakers who are behind the banfrom the get-go coming out with
their starting points for thenegotiation and then we'll see
some concessions.
But I'm not giving up hope yet.
I was going to be optimistic.
I think we're just waiting tosee where that light comes in
the near future.
I think we'll see someguardrails around potency
(03:36):
Obviously retailers which onescan or can't sell this product.
But I'm not going to throw inthe towel yet and say Texas is
doomed is doomed.
Ben Larson (03:45):
Yeah I, I agree, I.
I think we've seen this withpolitics in general, but
especially in texas around hempjust this like deep anchoring
and, who knows, maybe it leadsto status quo.
I think that's what some of thesome of the postulating has has
led to.
But, um, we kind of jumped intothe news.
I want to actually do a properintroduction to you and to the
(04:07):
company for those that don'tknow Mac and who are confused
about Air or Heirloom.
Mac and Heirloom have a reallycool history and the company
goes back 114 years with thefounding of Beacon Skiff, with
the Apple or orchards, and so Ialways thought that it was a
really cool connection.
You know, in cannabis we talkabout legacy, we talk about
(04:29):
legacy brands and being herebefore legalization.
This is a different type oflegacy for many that don't know
has had this kind of transitioninto the cannabis space, whether
it be through cannabis or hemp,and I would love for you to
just kind of talk about that.
Talk about that journey and howit's given you a certain type
of lens as it pertains to thehemp and cannabis space.
Mack Hueber (04:51):
I'll give kind of like the 60 second elevator
pitch background on heirloom andBeacon Skiff.
So, as you mentioned, ben, soBeacon Skiff, the parent company
, 114 year old family run appleorchard up in upstate New York,
right outside of Syracuse, atour core.
Pun intended, we are an appleorchard.
We're a commercial orchardwhere we also have a pretty
(05:13):
robust retail pick-your-ownapple orchard, which I grew up
in upstate New York, in Syracuse.
I remember coming here as a kidat least one weekend in the
fall every year to pick appleswith my family.
That still exists today.
But in addition to being anapple orchard, we do so many
other things.
We take apples, we press itinto fresh juice.
We're one of the biggest freshcider producers in the Northeast
(05:36):
.
We also take that juice,ferment it into our alcohol
brand 1911, into our hard ciderand spirits, which is
distributed in around 24 states.
In addition, we also are one ofthe largest cold brew coffee
producers on the East Coast.
I don't know A lot of beverageexperience and really you know
(05:57):
how you and I kind of connectedis when we first got into the
hemp program in New York and thegoal from day one was to make
cannabinoid beverages.
This is in 2018, 2019.
Did not have a crystal ballknowing that THC beverages were
going to be even a possibilityin New York, but we knew we
wanted to make CBD beverages andthat was going to be a good
(06:19):
jumping off point to learn andbe ready for when that THC day
came.
And that's how kind of weconnected with your old company,
nanogen.
Ben Larson (06:27):
Nanogen.
That was actually a really coolproduct, because I remember you
saying it's like we want tostay true to the brand and do a
truly organic product.
Yeah, and no one had done thatbefore.
No one had done a certifiedorganic CBD beverage.
Mack Hueber (06:43):
It was one thing that we, you know, have the
facility and the food safetyprograms in place to be a
certified organic handler, andit was like, okay, how do we
come out with something that'struly differentiated from what's
in the market?
And it was coming up with aUSDA certified organic seltzer
you know of.
Of course, no emulsion providercould do that, but you guys
(07:06):
were willing to work with us toget certified and since then we
haven't looked back and thepartnership's only been growing
and getting better.
So really appreciate all yoursupport and help in the last six
years yeah, wow, what a journey.
Ben Larson (07:20):
Yeah, so, yeah, so happened.
And then legal cannabis startedto happen, intoxicating hemp
started to happen.
You know, like, how have younavigated this?
Starting with that kind of likeCBD beverages as an entrance?
Mack Hueber (07:34):
Really for us right .
It started with a hemp programin New York making CBD products
CBD beverages primarily, butbuilding an extraction facility
for CBD growing our own hemp.
But then, when New Yorklegalized, we knew that the
market was going to open up inthe next two years from
post-legalization and we kind ofhit the ground running,
building out, I think, thelargest dedicated THC beverage
(07:57):
facility in the country.
At the time we had no clue thatD9 or intoxicating hemp
beverages was going to be athing.
This was purely just adispensary focus, but we knew we
wanted to build something thatcould scale and keep up with the
New York market.
Based on projections at the time$3 to $5 billion, depending on
who you ask, okay, beverages canmake up 2% to 3%.
(08:19):
We need roughly a million casesof production capacity a year
and that's what we built anddesigned.
It just happened to be that bythe time that facility got up
and running, right before thefirst dispensary in New York
opened, the D9 beverage wave wasbuilding quickly.
We had saw Minnesota the summerof 2022 ramping up and another
(08:44):
friend and cider company that weadmire, minneapolis Cider
Company.
They got into the D9 and themhaving a background in alcohol,
having the same licenses as uswhen it comes to alcohol gave us
kind of the confidence to moveahead into that D9 channel
simultaneously while we're alsofocusing on the dispensary
(09:05):
channel in New York.
Ben Larson (09:06):
Minneapolis Cider Company.
That's trail magic, right yeah,so did you know Jason Dayton
from the cider world?
Mack Hueber (09:12):
So our head cider producer knows Jason from cider
conventions.
Yes, the cider world is prettysmall.
Ben Larson (09:20):
Yeah, small world, yeah, and I guess there's
Blake's Hard, hard cider as wellin in michigan.
Yes, exactly, they're also inthe game.
So all the cider folks arejumping into the, into the d9
game.
Love to see it, yeah, and andyou have a a small regulated
cannabis operation as well.
Mack Hueber (09:38):
A little bit.
Yes, so we we built out a largethc beverage facility facility.
That was supposed to be justfor the dispensary channel, but
the way the New York regulationswork it's dual purpose.
So we can make adult usedispensary products as well as
empty nine beverages.
But in addition, as yourlisteners know, the dispensary
(09:58):
channels beverages make up 2% to3% maybe, so we knew we had and
we have a lot of extractioncapacities.
Percent maybe.
So we knew we had and we have alot of extraction capacities.
So we wanted to focus on valueadd formats such as vapes, fast
acting edibles, health andwellness like tinctures and
balms, because we had that rawingredient supply in our
facilities.
So while beverages was our mainfocus, the brand really spans
(10:22):
across multiple differentcategories vapes, pre-rolls,
tinctures, edibles and beverages.
Ben Larson (10:29):
So we do a bunch of different things and, as we've
mentioned on the show inprevious episodes, you guys are
number one as far as the brandgoes in New York right now.
Mack Hueber (10:38):
We have an amazing team that there's a vision, but
it really comes down toexecution, and I think that's
what our team does better thanalmost anyone else, so I have to
give my hats off to our teamhere.
Ben Larson (10:49):
Well, the vertical integration is an interesting
aspect.
What kind of benefits do youthink that has given you?
Mack Hueber (10:55):
Well, it's a great question for your listeners that
don't know.
In the regulated market here inNew York it's a two-tier, kind
of three-tier, but really atwo-tier model.
You're either on the supplyside cultivator, processor,
distributor or retail.
That's not the norm in mostregulated cannabis markets but
it is the norm in alcohol and,coming from the alcohol space,
(11:16):
like I mentioned earlier, thisis a very familiar market
structure and one that I thinkeven before the New York market
got up and running.
I think that three-tier model,the two-tier model in alcohol,
allows people to focus on andexecute what they do best.
Right.
If you are a beverage producerright, you can focus on just
(11:37):
producing and formulating thebest liquid, the best packaging,
best products.
Distributor right, you focusthe best on, you know, ensuring
those products get to the right.
You focus the best on ensuringthose products get to the right
retailers and retailers.
You're focusing on sellingreally what the best products
are that you think yourcustomers want, versus the
vertically integrated marketswhere retailers are going to
sell gives them the most margin,right.
(11:58):
And ultimately the consumerloses.
I think that's the main benefitof the New York two-tier model
is that the New York marketconsumers have the most diverse
selection of products to choosefrom and are choosing which
brands will be the winners, notbased on the pay-to-play models
that kind of happen in othermarkets, but who has the best
products.
Ben Larson (12:19):
I'm going to put a pin in New York because there's
also been some news out of NewYork recently, but before we get
there, I like going aroundkicking hornets' nests and you
mentioned the three-tier system.
It's like a very hot topic,especially in the empty nine
space.
You mentioned some of thebenefits of people focusing on
what they're good at and thenthere being the structure, what
(12:42):
are some of the things, thedownsides or the hidden benefits
maybe, that you haven'tmentioned yet of the three-tier
system, having come from thealcohol space, experiencing it
and now being in this kind offreewheeling hemp marketplace?
Mack Hueber (12:55):
Well, one thing that's different in the
three-tier market for D9 versusalcohol is fair trade kind of
practices.
Right, in alcohol most statesyou have what's called like a
price posting, so every retailerhas access more or less to the
same volume price breaks as thelargest retailer in that state
versus the smallest mom and popindependent store.
Pay-to-play is prohibited,right, there's basically
(13:19):
guardrails in place to ensurethat again, the best products
make it on shelf, not who'smotivating the retailers the
most.
Yeah, I think that's obviouslythe bigger question around the
future of the hemp beverages.
But if I'm reading my owncrystal ball here, I see this
going more in line with TTBthree-tier model and we can
(13:42):
discuss kind of the nuances ofthat.
But the three-tier model allowsfor the smaller, discuss kind
of the nuances of that.
But the three-tier model allowsfor the smaller, mid-sized
brands to have a fighting chance.
Right For your listeners.
Ben Larson (13:51):
Like, if Budweiser or Miller is able to own their
own bars, own their own beerstores, liquor stores, that's
all they're going to sell, right, if daniel can have his own bar
, then they're only going to beselling jack daniel whiskey yeah
, well, there's been just a veryloud conversation about about
(14:11):
this topic and there's fear thatcreating the three-tier system
is handing the power over to thedistributors right, and that
they essentially you know, quoteunquote own it, but they aren't
necessarily the ones owning thestores.
Are there like backdoor dealsthere that are where the
distributors and the retailersare kind of in cahoots and like
blocking brands out, or is itactually creating this even
(14:34):
playing field for innovativebrands?
Mack Hueber (14:36):
No, I don't think we're at the state of this
category of maturity wherebrands are blocking other brands
.
I could be wrong, but I thinkthere's just retailers aren't
limiting space for this category.
If this continues to have legsright, this is retailers see the
writing on the wall.
They're obviously seeing thealcohol sales decline, rathbeer
(14:57):
declining the most right.
So we know that they want toreplace that with high margin
products, and this category fitsthat perfectly.
I think it's the challenge orthe fear around the three-tier
model the alcohol distributorsright is you have to make sure
you do your due diligence andpick the right ones.
Long-term partnerships and Ithink that's the biggest lesson
(15:19):
from this D9 venture is notletting FOMO take over and just
going with the first distributorthat says yes, it's making sure
that you really vet and ensurethat that distributor, even that
retailer, is going to live upto the promises that they say.
So you know that's kind of onething that we've really dialed
(15:40):
back is the focus on expansioninto new markets, but really
going much deeper into theexisting markets, mainly because
one we don't want to spreadourselves too thin, but it's
also I want to really invest inthe distributors, but also
really investing in heirloom.
Ben Larson (15:57):
Yeah, also, you have this kind of bifurcated
business.
You have the regulated side,the hemp side and there's a lot
of volatility with regulationsand kind of this existential
threat at the federal level.
Right, there's a lot of smartpeople working on that that
allow us to be here and justkind of keep trying to operate.
(16:17):
So thank you to all those folks.
I know people are workingreally hard on that.
I want to do a little like whathappens if a worst case
scenario does come in and ourcommunity has had the
opportunity to get exposure tothese products.
It seems that beverage is reallybecoming a category and where
(16:38):
people previously thought itwasn't going to be a thing, it
now looks like it's a thing.
Right, and people like it.
People are consuming it, peopleare repurchasing it and people
like it, people are consuming it, people are repurchasing it.
Do you think society has hadenough exposure to it now?
To where, if these productswere forced back into the
dispensaries in certainmarketplaces we'll just choose
New York Do we potentially seethat being a way to bring more
(17:00):
people into dispensaries?
Like, will these consumers ofthe hemp beverages go and grab
beverages from a dispensary?
Will that finally be a tractorfor them?
Mack Hueber (17:11):
Yeah, I mean I know you and I have been in a
cannabis beverage bubble Iimagine a lot of your podcast
audiences as well but I thinkit's no longer a proof of
concept that THC can be in a canor a single-serve 12-ounce
bottle or whatnot.
We've seen meta ads showing asGoogle Shop ads.
(17:32):
Obviously, I have family andfriends locally here who aren't
as involved in the cannabiscommunity as much as I am, but
now are actively going orordering stuff online to be
shipped right Not even fromLuther Spencer.
So I think it's just theawareness of this category has
just grown exponentially beyondwhere I thought it could be two
(17:55):
years ago.
So I think, in a worst casescenario always trying to stay
optimistic If we see theappropriations or something else
the farm bill kind of closingthis opportunity, I'm still
optimistic that there could besomething in the near future
behind that a standalone bill orsomething of a sort that would
allow this to come back, maybewith more narrower guardrails,
(18:20):
so maybe a lower potency, whoknows?
Maybe something that has to gothrough or overseen by the TTD
instead of the FDA.
I just think the cat's out ofthe bag here.
We've shown this.
The consumers want this.
We've seen music festivalspromoting this, bars and
restaurants asking for this.
(18:41):
So I just don't see how thisgoes away quietly and I know
your listeners probably wouldagree with me that no one's
going to go away without takingin streaming here but I think
the format is now more widelyknown that, sir, in states where
there is only adult use allowedand not D9, like in New York,
(19:04):
yeah, there might be some uplift, but it's never going to
replace what the D9 market was.
If that comes Again, I thinkit's just more exposure that
this brand, this productcategory, this format exists,
which not many people knew abouta couple years ago.
Ben Larson (19:21):
And with the softening alcohol sales we have
more partners and leverage thanever before in helping to try to
procure that future.
I do think there will always bea contingent of folks, because
it is such a wide marketplaceright now beyond beverage that
people will be kicking andscreaming, no matter what the
scenario is.
And I have heard a littlebirdie tells me that with the
(19:46):
federal conversation that capslike potency caps are being
negotiated and considered.
So we'll see That'll be comingdown the pike.
But when it comes to the NewYork marketplace, give us a
little reminder update on kindof what is available from a,
from a legal aspect in the hempcategory.
And I know that there's beennews coming out of New York
(20:09):
where they just keep kind offumbling it.
It seems like in some ways,like many other states,
regulators just can't get out oftheir own way and just are
determined to make this hard forthe regulated space, which is
really disconcerting as we'retrying to marry these two
marketplaces.
Mack Hueber (20:24):
Yes, I mean kind of two issues there.
One, the hemp side, yeah,places.
Yes, I mean kind of two issuesthere.
One, the hemp side yeah, foryour listeners, right?
So New York regulations changedback in 2023 that restricted an
intoxicating hemp product tohave a cap of one milligram per
serving.
And a beverage in New York canalways only be one serving,
whether it's a 64-ounce Pepsisoda bottle or you know a little
(20:48):
five hour energy shot.
So we can't take advantage ofthat.
Oh, this is five servings in acan, so it's really one
milligram Delta nine THC per 12ounce can, plus the 15 milligram
ratio of CBD or CBGs.
You have to have a one to 15.
And can you do?
Can?
Ben Larson (21:05):
you do on-prem with that?
Do they serve in bars andrestaurants?
You can.
So you basically have to have a.
Uh, retailers have to have aone to 15.
And can you do on-prem withthat, Do they?
Mack Hueber (21:09):
serve in bars and restaurants you can.
So you basically have to have aretailers have to have a hemp
retail permit.
It's like 300 bucks.
It's pretty much an automaticissuance as long as you apply
online right away.
So we are seeing some retailers, especially on-premise.
We do a one milligram microhere in New York and seeing
really good success in the sensethat especially the on-premise
(21:31):
operators want thatsessionability.
The one milligram is not foreveryone.
Maybe most of your listenersprefer a much higher dose but
it's a great introductoryproduct for the new cannabis
consumer.
Ben Larson (21:46):
Yes, I love this product.
This is my favorite one.
This is the Honeycrisp.
So one milligram THC, 15milligrams of CBG, and it's made
with the cider from the114-year-old farm.
Mack Hueber (21:59):
Yeah, exactly.
So that is our eight-ouncemicro one milligram THC drink.
That's just sold in New York.
That's sold on our farm, right,so we can introduce people
coming up to grab apples or ouralcohol products.
But that Honeycrisp really isour bread and butter.
It's our flagship product.
We have it in a 5 milligram B9.
(22:20):
We have it in a 10 milligramadult use for dispensaries in
New York.
We also have it as a 3milligram in Connecticut.
So we have multiple potenciesfor the same liquid.
But that's the best product toreally merge the Beacon Stiff
heritage brand with the newHeirloom innovation.
So taking something that weliterally brew on the farm,
(22:41):
press it and add the THC fromthe plants that we grew here as
well, that's amazing.
Ben Larson (22:46):
Yeah, and all that effort, all that heritage.
Is that resonating withcustomers Like how do they like
this product?
Mack Hueber (22:53):
They love it and it's our number one product in
New York, both in dispensariesand in the micro the hemp
channel.
But we knew New Yorkers loveapples, but that's even our
number one few down south in theB9 markets.
So it's amazing to see thatstyle of liquid resonate with so
many consumers outside of ourhome market.
(23:15):
And it's easy to tell peoplefrom upstate New York okay,
heirloom is Beacon Skiff.
They can make that connection,you know, knowing that that
apple was grown in our farm.
It's still amazing to see thatpeople want to try this product
somewhere far away from New Yorkwithout knowing the context
behind it.
Ben Larson (23:33):
So, talking about New York, there was this recent
article I just saw where they'rereassessing how to measure the
distance of a dispensary from aschool or church and there's
certain minimums that must bemet and it went from doorway to
doorway, to premise to doorway,and it seems like such a silly
thing to implement.
(23:54):
After the fact, this couldimpact 50 plus dispensaries, I
think Over 100, yeah, over 100.
Excellent.
How is it now?
Like?
I know it was a really roughrollout for New York it has been
seeming like it's been gettingbetter over the years, like it's
been opening up.
People have been getting moreexcited about it.
(24:15):
Boots on the ground.
How are you feeling right now,with or without this news?
Mack Hueber (24:20):
Prior to last night , when this news kind of dropped
, you know, I was coming backenergized, ready to go.
I was coming back energized,ready to go and I think,
reflecting back on the New Yorkdispensary market, we've seen a
lot of momentum building.
We finally feel like we havesome wind in our sails.
But obviously last night wasreally discouraging and I think
(24:41):
a lot of questions around thisstill coming.
So I'm still kind of digestingthis, with our team
understanding which retailers,areas of the state are most
impacted by this.
I think the question on this isjust why now, like we're what,
three years into licensingprocess and they're just
(25:02):
realizing this so-called mistake.
You know, I think there's a oftheories out there.
I think it's just too early tounderstand why this decision was
made and kind of communicatedin the way it was.
And so I really feel for theretailers, the ones even
operating as well as the oneswho are just about to start
(25:22):
operating, who are now reallydealing with some hard decisions
in their future.
So I'm hopeful that thegovernor, the legislative body
of New York, can make this right.
This all kind of goes back tothe MRTA, the legalization bill
in New York.
So if we can fix that.
(25:43):
That would be great, but I'mgoing to try to stay optimistic.
Ben Larson (25:48):
like I said, Well, I mean, you've been through the
cycles with the New Yorklegislature and the OCM, and
does that give you reason to beoptimistic?
Mack Hueber (26:00):
Yeah, I think I didn't know much about
government and how it worksbefore getting into hemp and
cannabis.
I think that's something youhave to understand getting into
this space.
I'm optimistic that I think thelawmakers understand the
gravity of this situation,especially with the number of
(26:21):
social equity operators in NewYork.
I think New York market one ofthe big call-outs and
accomplishments accomplishmentsis leave over half of the retail
licenses are social equityapplicants, which is unheard of
in most cannabis markets.
So the fact that majority ofthose are the ones being
impacted by this late nightannouncement yesterday, I have
(26:44):
to imagine that lawmakers willstep up and do the right thing.
Ben Larson (26:47):
Yeah, otherwise, it just feels like this perpetual
trap that the states are puttingthese equity applicants in.
It's unfortunate.
I want to use this as a time totransition more into the
personal side.
You being a leader of acannabis brand, I'm assuming
that this wasn't on the forecastof like what do I want to be
(27:07):
when I grow up?
But you ended up here.
Yes, there's a cannabis brand.
I'm assuming that this wasn'ton the forecast of like, what do
I want to be when I grow up?
But you ended up here.
Mack Hueber (27:12):
Yeah, so just a quick backstory.
So I actually had no experiencein beverage production or in
agriculture.
I was working for an investmentbank in New York City.
I was down there for about 10years and wanted to move back
home to Syracuse where my familywas and I found and met the
family running Beacon Skiff andthey had grand vision of what
(27:35):
this staple in the community,this whole hundred-year-old
business, could be.
It wasn't status quo whichreally intrigued me.
This was nine years ago andcannabis was never in the
discussion.
But I always knew that thisfamily was never afraid to try
new things and that was justexciting to me, knowing that we
(27:57):
could build and leverage thegoodwill that this brand, this
company, has in the localcommunity of New York and trying
to venture into new categoriesat that time we're really
ramping up our alcoholhard-setter division.
But yeah, I think how I got intothe hemp and cannabis I mean
I've always been a cannabisconsumer I think after learning
for a few years how beverageproduction works in the alcohol
(28:19):
space, here is when the hempprogram, cbd market kind of
kicked off and it really camedown to just passion.
Like I'm just obsessed withlistening and reading about
cannabis beverages, hempbeverages, anything in that
realm.
And that kind of passion helpedme drive and focus more on where
I think this company, beacon'sGift, could find a niche in the
(28:41):
cannabis space.
And that was really in cannabisbeverages which, as your
listeners know, a couple ofyears ago in the adult use made
up maybe 1% of dispensaries.
But I knew that what thiscategory was missing was
scalability from an operatorstandpoint and really
experienced operators.
We could write novels of allthe mistakes we've made in the
(29:03):
decades we've been producingbeverages outside of cannabis
right.
So, taking all that, thoselearnings, bringing it to
cannabis, we knew we couldprovide value in this category
in this market with ourexpertise.
So it was really just beingaround some really great people
on our team, great operators whoI learned a ton from the
passion to always wanting tolearn more about this industry,
(29:26):
meeting folks like yourselvesand Harold to understand how
emulsions work.
You know it's kind of amazingto see over the years how we've
gotten to where we are todaybased on all the small little
wins and introductionsthroughout the years.
Ben Larson (29:40):
And so you have this 100 plus year old apple orchard
family that has, over the lastdecade, migrated into hemp and
cannabis.
The Apple operation is stillgoing on.
How do these two differentagricultural products, the ethos
of the two, has the familyfully adopted it?
I guess it's not easy, as wewere talking about, and so it
(30:01):
takes some resolve at this pointand some commitment to really
see it through.
And so, yeah, I'm curious as tohow that's been integrated as
far as the entire company goes.
Mack Hueber (30:12):
Yeah, I think that's one thing, that we
weren't going to just kind ofdip our toes into this.
And you know, when the familiesdecided to get into hemp and
cannabis, we made it known toour local community.
We definitely got some pushback, but I think we've gained so
many more customers since then.
(30:33):
It's the same thing when BeaconCity introduced our alcohol
brand 15 years ago.
There was a lot of pushback ofbringing alcohol to an apple
orchard where people bring theirkids, but now most people come
mainly for the alcohol.
So I think what we realized iswe weren't going to hide the
fact that we were getting intothis.
We were going to leverage ourgoodwill in the community and
(30:55):
our reputation to be like we'regetting into this.
We see the benefits of it.
We make great alcohol that isnot really making anyone's lives
better on a daily basis.
This cannabis we can feelreally good about knowing that
people consuming that areactually enhancing or bettering
their lives on a daily basis.
This cannabis we can feelreally good about knowing that
people consuming that areactually enhancing they're
bettering their lives on a dailybasis.
Ben Larson (31:14):
I've actually really appreciated Eddie's.
Eddie Brennan is the presidentco-owner.
He's been actually outspokenand supportive of the category
and I've seen him attacked inthe comments by some of that.
The old community where they'rejust like what are you guys
doing, like this, is poison.
And the way he stands up forthe category I felt was really
(31:36):
genuine and it was reallyappreciated.
Mack Hueber (31:39):
Yeah, I'm really grateful that Eddie and his
family felt so strongly thatthey needed to do that, because
it's what this industry needs.
That was a couple of years agowhen we first kind of made the
announcement.
I think now we're seeing muchless hate mail and more
appreciative thank you emailsfor how much heirloom products,
(32:00):
or CHC products in general, arehelping people's daily lives.
Ben Larson (32:05):
Wow, that's incredible.
I love those.
Data points are just reallyimportant for us to understand
the progress that we're makingover the years.
You know, it's like it's reallyeasy to get wrapped up in the
roller coaster of politics orjust the ups and downs of
business, but when we do zoomout and see how much we've
(32:27):
progressed in the greatermovement, it's really something
to be proud of.
My colleague at NCIA, aaronSmith, the founder, is
transitioning from the CEO roleafter 20 years of doing this and
moments like that you take astep back.
It's like wow, how far we'vecome.
I know it's painful, I knowit's arduously slow, but like
(32:50):
how far we've come.
In that that that time periodis is incredible, feels like
it's accelerating because of ofthis beverage category.
How are you managing this as aleader?
Like you have a team.
Some of them are experienced inthe hemp and cannabis space.
Some of them come in from thehemp and cannabis space, some of
them come in from the outside.
What's your advice to the teamto kind of keep them optimistic,
(33:14):
to keep them motivated?
What's your leadership style innavigating through that?
Mack Hueber (33:19):
Yeah, well, I think you hit the nail on the head
when look, especially incannabis, as your listeners know
right, it's the daily grind,the beatings you take, whether
it's from regulators, newlooming legislation in New York,
biotrack implementation that'scoming any day now.
Accounts receivable yeah,accounts receivable.
I think it's really alwaystaking a step, reflecting back
(33:42):
as how far we've come and evenin cannabis, looking back within
three months, especially in NewYork, it's really eye-opening
and rewarding to see how farwe've come as a team.
You need to focus on the dailytasks at hand, but taking a step
back, weekly or every otherweek basis that we try to do
with our team just to make surethey see that what we're doing
(34:05):
is working.
I know it sounds simple, butreally I'm very blessed that I
have an amazing team here.
I'm not just saying that.
We really brought in what Ithink is the best in class team
leaders, really from outside ofcannabis.
We wanted to bring in peoplefrom true operators who ran
(34:26):
beverage production or foodpackaging facilities not even
cannabis bringing theirexpertise in and then I can
teach them about cannabis, andso I think we've had a lot of
success doing that.
Bringing in outsiders whospecialize, have their niche of
industry.
They work in bringing them intothe cannabis space here,
(34:46):
educating them, and then theycan bring all their learnings
and expertise from their priorroles.
Ben Larson (34:52):
Yeah, I love seeking that talent and bringing in and
just adding it to whatever theteam didn't previously have.
In doing that and understandingthe ups and downs of the
industry, we have found thatit's been helpful to find people
that are passionate about theplant and have a reason to
(35:13):
navigate the ups and downs ofall this.
And I'm curious do you do asimilar filtering of somehow?
Is there any particularquestion you ask about people's
familiarity or love?
Mack Hueber (35:25):
for the plant.
Make sure we have a smokingsession during the interview
process.
No, no, it's not a requirement,obviously, for the team members
here to be consumers.
They just have to be passionateabout this industry and what it
can bring to potential otherconsumers.
And I think that's really it.
The passion has to be recognizedthat day one with a candidate
(35:50):
and that passion can come fromreally intellectual curiosity
just trying to.
You know if they're coming tome on the first time, meeting
them with everything they'vebeen reading, listening to
podcasts like this there'sreally no tried and true
playbook in cannabis, so Iappreciate people who come as
candidates for roles here, whohave really scoured the internet
(36:12):
, podcasts, trying to learn asmuch as they can, and that just
shows me, okay, your passion toreally understand where the
industry is at and where itcould be.
I just want to see that driveand that excitement, but it's
not going to be like any otherbeverage producer or gummy
producer or even our cultivationteam.
It's not going to be like anyother beverage producer or gummy
producer or even you know, ourcultivation team.
Ben Larson (36:31):
It's not like growing apples yeah, going back
to when we first startedtogether, like in 2019, the, the
candidate pool, looked a lotdifferent than it does today and
that's one of my markers forhow we're developing as a
mainstream category and like thetalent that we get to choose
from now is really awesome.
But I do want to give creditwhere credit's due.
(36:53):
I remember when we startedworking with you guys and we saw
the first beverage facilitythat you'd built and how that
was a moment for us for howexcited we were for that next
level of operator to come in thesophistication of of the
facility.
I just remember the team comingback and you have to see this
facility.
It's beautiful.
(37:14):
What excites you about thefuture, like a year from now?
What do you imagine those likethose signals being like who,
who's coming in the space?
Where are we?
Yeah, what do you?
What are you driving towards?
Mack Hueber (37:25):
I think, um, if we look at just the products
themselves, I think there's somuch more innovation coming.
We've seen really a lot of theinnovation coming from an
avinoid plus functionalingredients and liquids.
I think we're just kind of atthe very beginning stages of
(37:46):
what that could look like.
I think there's going to be alot of challenges with consumer
education on what works, whatdoesn't work, but I think
effect-based beverages is goingto be a huge thing.
We've seen the success inedibles, gummies in particular.
I have a lot of conviction thatwe're going to see something
(38:09):
similar in a beverage format.
I also am really interested tosee like what kind of liquids
continue to come out, not justthe ingredients.
But you know, we did somethingthat was pretty unique.
Uh, two months ago we launcheda de-alkalized hard cider rose
infused with thc and CBC.
So I know you were holding upour Honeycrisp drink.
(38:30):
But this actually touches oneother facility, our alcohol
facility.
So we grow the apples, we pressit, we ferment it, so it's
actually a hard cider.
We then run it through ade-alkalized machine so it pulls
all the alcohol, but it stillhas that alcohol taste profile.
It's drier, less sugar andadding in that thc.
(38:53):
So that was a really a momentto reflect back on like, wow, I
never would have thought thatwould have been possible.
You know, two or three yearsago, when we were talking about
thc beverages.
You know I'm excited to seemore non-alcohol or
de-alcoholized products likebeers, wines and so forth.
Ben Larson (39:10):
Was that a limited run product and where was it
available?
Mack Hueber (39:14):
I told the team that at first, but I think it's
going to be a year-round productnow.
Ben Larson (39:17):
It's all right, that's what Taco Bell does.
They have their special menuand things make their way to the
regular menu.
Excellent.
As we approach the top of thehour, I have to get this
question out.
I couldn't tie it to anythingelse that we were talking about.
Maybe I should have done in thebeginning.
Where does the name Heirloomcome from?
And I know I'm sure you'reaware it was commented on the
event post.
(39:37):
You know there's a little bitof confusion between AYR and
Heirloom.
Where does it come from?
Mack Hueber (39:44):
No, it came from my wife.
I got to give her credit forthat, but it really.
It's a name that ties heritageand quality together, right?
So again, the parent companyBeacon Skiffs.
It's fifth generation familyrun, still by the Beaks and the
Skiffs.
Just like most families thatpass things down, you have a
family heirloom right as well asjust like there are heirloom
(40:06):
right as well as just like thereare heirloom tomatoes, there
are heirloom apples, and theymake the best quality hard cider
.
So that's where the name camefrom.
Obviously, we wanted to changeup the spelling for ip, you know
, trademark reasons, yeah, soheirloom, no relation to the
other a little.
Ben Larson (40:25):
Uh, just tactical advice right there.
Uh, trademark advice, all right, mac.
Well, it's time for our lastcall.
It's time for you to give yourfinal message to our listeners.
Anything you want, advice, callto action.
Closing thoughts what is it?
Mack Hueber (40:44):
cannabis or otherwise.
I'm still going to be theoptimist in the room here.
I know there's a lot of loomingconcerns at the federal level
with B9, but I still think.
Look, I think the cannabisbeverage category format is here
to stay and I think, whetheryou're a retailer, an operator
or even a creator, now is thetime to get into cannabis
beverages.
I think we've seen the adoptionrate of consumers gravitating
(41:10):
toward this familiar format.
The space is still wide openfor who is going to be the best
brands out there.
I think we're still at thefirst out of the very first
inning here.
I'm going to be the extremeoptimist that this category has
a lot of runway ahead of it.
Ben Larson (41:30):
I love it.
Well, the title of the show isHigh Spirits, so this is
absolutely allowed and I lovethe messaging.
Thc Beverages is here to stay.
Now is the time, Get in, andwe're just getting started.
So, Matt Huber Heirloom, thankyou so much.
Always good to catch up withyou.
This time on air for our 99thepisode.
(41:52):
Very auspicious Thanks for yourtime today, Mac.
Thank you so much, Ben.
All right, I'll talk to yousoon.
What do you think, folks?
Is THC Beverages here to stay?
Is hemp going to survive theappropriations and farm bill in
the fall?
We shall see.
Thank you so much for engaging,for liking, subscribing, doing
(42:12):
all the things.
If you like this episode,please stop and give us a review
.
It really does help us buildour listenership.
Thank you to our teams atVertosa and Wolfmeyer.
Couldn't do it without you guys, but really couldn't do it
without our amazing producer,Eric Rossetti, without you guys,
but really couldn't do itwithout our amazing producer
Eric Rossetti.
Until next time, folks, staycurious, stay informed and keep
(42:33):
your spirits high.
We'll be back with NRA nexttime.
we're seeing much less hate mail and more
appreciative thank you emails.
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:06):
Hey friends, I'm Anna Rae, co-host of High
Spirits Pod, and we are hittingour 100th episode on August 5th.
We kind of can't believe it,but it's true.
Thanks for coming along for theride, thanks for being a part
of building this community.
Engaging with us.
It really, really means a lot.
We are opening it up to you,our listeners, in hopes that you
(00:28):
will ask us questions.
Anything that you want to knowabout us, about what we think
about the industry, reallyanything.
You can submit your questionsby going to highspiritspodcom
slash ask, and you can submitaudio questions or send us a
text, and your submission mighteven end up on the podcast.
(00:48):
We are incredibly grateful forall of the guests who have
joined us over the past twoyears, all of the listeners that
have joined us.
You guys are an incrediblegroup of people that are trying
to up-level what you know aboutcannabis, think about things in
a new way, and we're just reallyglad to be along for the ride.
Ben Larson (01:14):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 99.
99 of High Spirits.
It's Tuesday, july 29, 2025.
I'm Ben Larson and today I'mjoined by Mac Huber.
Anna Rae's out.
She's traveling.
I don't know where she is.
Anna Rae, come back.
We got 99 episodes but Anna Raeain't on this one.
(01:38):
All right, I'm going to bringMac Huber on.
Mac Huber, heirloom out of NewYork.
Mac, welcome to the show, Ben,glad to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
So good to see you, man.
I'm really excited to jump inand have you be my co-host today
, or guest, whatever you want toidentify as, but we've known
each other in the space forquite some time, so it's really
(02:00):
special to have you on rightbefore we tick over into this
100th episode, as Anna Rae wasleading us in with so super
stoked to have you on.
We're going to dive into allthings New York, hemp, cannabis,
anything else, summer vacations, whatever you want to talk
about.
I'm here for it all.
But maybe we start with thenews yeah, typical news week in
the cannabis industry Bigsurprise that Terrence Cole, the
(02:23):
new head of the DEA, isdeciding not to prioritize
rescheduling.
Who knows how long that lastsfor or how true that is, but
it's not on his list.
So womp, womp.
What else Texas, texas isTexas-ing?
We're going from ban to vetoback to darn near close to a ban
(02:44):
, it sounds like, but there's alot of backroom conversations
happening there.
How closely are you followingTexas?
Mack Hueber (02:50):
I am following it For your listeners.
We're not in that market, butobviously it's a market that we
were hoping to jump into priorto this legislative mess this
spring.
I think we're just kind oflooking at it as what that means
for additional states andreally at the federal level.
I think what we're seeing thisweek with the news is just the
(03:14):
lawmakers who are behind the banfrom the get-go coming out with
their starting points for thenegotiation and then we'll see
some concessions.
But I'm not giving up hope yet.
I was going to be optimistic.
I think we're just waiting tosee where that light comes in
the near future.
I think we'll see someguardrails around potency
(03:36):
Obviously retailers which onescan or can't sell this product.
But I'm not going to throw inthe towel yet and say Texas is
doomed is doomed.
Ben Larson (03:45):
Yeah I, I agree, I.
I think we've seen this withpolitics in general, but
especially in texas around hempjust this like deep anchoring
and, who knows, maybe it leadsto status quo.
I think that's what some of thesome of the postulating has has
led to.
But, um, we kind of jumped intothe news.
I want to actually do a properintroduction to you and to the
(04:07):
company for those that don'tknow Mac and who are confused
about Air or Heirloom.
Mac and Heirloom have a reallycool history and the company
goes back 114 years with thefounding of Beacon Skiff, with
the Apple or orchards, and so Ialways thought that it was a
really cool connection.
You know, in cannabis we talkabout legacy, we talk about
(04:29):
legacy brands and being herebefore legalization.
This is a different type oflegacy for many that don't know
has had this kind of transitioninto the cannabis space, whether
it be through cannabis or hemp,and I would love for you to
just kind of talk about that.
Talk about that journey and howit's given you a certain type
of lens as it pertains to thehemp and cannabis space.
Mack Hueber (04:51):
I'll give kind of like the 60 second elevator
pitch background on heirloom andBeacon Skiff.
So, as you mentioned, ben, soBeacon Skiff, the parent company
, 114 year old family run appleorchard up in upstate New York,
right outside of Syracuse, atour core.
Pun intended, we are an appleorchard.
We're a commercial orchardwhere we also have a pretty
(05:13):
robust retail pick-your-ownapple orchard, which I grew up
in upstate New York, in Syracuse.
I remember coming here as a kidat least one weekend in the
fall every year to pick appleswith my family.
That still exists today.
But in addition to being anapple orchard, we do so many
other things.
We take apples, we press itinto fresh juice.
We're one of the biggest freshcider producers in the Northeast
(05:36):
.
We also take that juice,ferment it into our alcohol
brand 1911, into our hard ciderand spirits, which is
distributed in around 24 states.
In addition, we also are one ofthe largest cold brew coffee
producers on the East Coast.
I don't know A lot of beverageexperience and really you know
(05:57):
how you and I kind of connectedis when we first got into the
hemp program in New York and thegoal from day one was to make
cannabinoid beverages.
This is in 2018, 2019.
Did not have a crystal ballknowing that THC beverages were
going to be even a possibilityin New York, but we knew we
wanted to make CBD beverages andthat was going to be a good
(06:19):
jumping off point to learn andbe ready for when that THC day
came.
And that's how kind of weconnected with your old company,
nanogen.
Ben Larson (06:27):
Nanogen.
That was actually a really coolproduct, because I remember you
saying it's like we want tostay true to the brand and do a
truly organic product.
Yeah, and no one had done thatbefore.
No one had done a certifiedorganic CBD beverage.
Mack Hueber (06:43):
It was one thing that we, you know, have the
facility and the food safetyprograms in place to be a
certified organic handler, andit was like, okay, how do we
come out with something that'struly differentiated from what's
in the market?
And it was coming up with aUSDA certified organic seltzer
you know of.
Of course, no emulsion providercould do that, but you guys
(07:06):
were willing to work with us toget certified and since then we
haven't looked back and thepartnership's only been growing
and getting better.
So really appreciate all yoursupport and help in the last six
years yeah, wow, what a journey.
Ben Larson (07:20):
Yeah, so, yeah, so happened.
And then legal cannabis startedto happen, intoxicating hemp
started to happen.
You know, like, how have younavigated this?
Starting with that kind of likeCBD beverages as an entrance?
Mack Hueber (07:34):
Really for us right .
It started with a hemp programin New York making CBD products
CBD beverages primarily, butbuilding an extraction facility
for CBD growing our own hemp.
But then, when New Yorklegalized, we knew that the
market was going to open up inthe next two years from
post-legalization and we kind ofhit the ground running,
building out, I think, thelargest dedicated THC beverage
(07:57):
facility in the country.
At the time we had no clue thatD9 or intoxicating hemp
beverages was going to be athing.
This was purely just adispensary focus, but we knew we
wanted to build something thatcould scale and keep up with the
New York market.
Based on projections at the time$3 to $5 billion, depending on
who you ask, okay, beverages canmake up 2% to 3%.
(08:19):
We need roughly a million casesof production capacity a year
and that's what we built anddesigned.
It just happened to be that bythe time that facility got up
and running, right before thefirst dispensary in New York
opened, the D9 beverage wave wasbuilding quickly.
We had saw Minnesota the summerof 2022 ramping up and another
(08:44):
friend and cider company that weadmire, minneapolis Cider
Company.
They got into the D9 and themhaving a background in alcohol,
having the same licenses as uswhen it comes to alcohol gave us
kind of the confidence to moveahead into that D9 channel
simultaneously while we're alsofocusing on the dispensary
(09:05):
channel in New York.
Ben Larson (09:06):
Minneapolis Cider Company.
That's trail magic, right yeah,so did you know Jason Dayton
from the cider world?
Mack Hueber (09:12):
So our head cider producer knows Jason from cider
conventions.
Yes, the cider world is prettysmall.
Ben Larson (09:20):
Yeah, small world, yeah, and I guess there's
Blake's Hard, hard cider as wellin in michigan.
Yes, exactly, they're also inthe game.
So all the cider folks arejumping into the, into the d9
game.
Love to see it, yeah, and andyou have a a small regulated
cannabis operation as well.
Mack Hueber (09:38):
A little bit.
Yes, so we we built out a largethc beverage facility facility.
That was supposed to be justfor the dispensary channel, but
the way the New York regulationswork it's dual purpose.
So we can make adult usedispensary products as well as
empty nine beverages.
But in addition, as yourlisteners know, the dispensary
(09:58):
channels beverages make up 2% to3% maybe, so we knew we had and
we have a lot of extractioncapacities.
Percent maybe.
So we knew we had and we have alot of extraction capacities.
So we wanted to focus on valueadd formats such as vapes, fast
acting edibles, health andwellness like tinctures and
balms, because we had that rawingredient supply in our
facilities.
So while beverages was our mainfocus, the brand really spans
(10:22):
across multiple differentcategories vapes, pre-rolls,
tinctures, edibles and beverages.
Ben Larson (10:29):
So we do a bunch of different things and, as we've
mentioned on the show inprevious episodes, you guys are
number one as far as the brandgoes in New York right now.
Mack Hueber (10:38):
We have an amazing team that there's a vision, but
it really comes down toexecution, and I think that's
what our team does better thanalmost anyone else, so I have to
give my hats off to our teamhere.
Ben Larson (10:49):
Well, the vertical integration is an interesting
aspect.
What kind of benefits do youthink that has given you?
Mack Hueber (10:55):
Well, it's a great question for your listeners that
don't know.
In the regulated market here inNew York it's a two-tier, kind
of three-tier, but really atwo-tier model.
You're either on the supplyside cultivator, processor,
distributor or retail.
That's not the norm in mostregulated cannabis markets but
it is the norm in alcohol and,coming from the alcohol space,
(11:16):
like I mentioned earlier, thisis a very familiar market
structure and one that I thinkeven before the New York market
got up and running.
I think that three-tier model,the two-tier model in alcohol,
allows people to focus on andexecute what they do best.
Right.
If you are a beverage producerright, you can focus on just
(11:37):
producing and formulating thebest liquid, the best packaging,
best products.
Distributor right, you focusthe best on, you know, ensuring
those products get to the right.
You focus the best on ensuringthose products get to the right
retailers and retailers.
You're focusing on sellingreally what the best products
are that you think yourcustomers want, versus the
vertically integrated marketswhere retailers are going to
sell gives them the most margin,right.
(11:58):
And ultimately the consumerloses.
I think that's the main benefitof the New York two-tier model
is that the New York marketconsumers have the most diverse
selection of products to choosefrom and are choosing which
brands will be the winners, notbased on the pay-to-play models
that kind of happen in othermarkets, but who has the best
products.
Ben Larson (12:19):
I'm going to put a pin in New York because there's
also been some news out of NewYork recently, but before we get
there, I like going aroundkicking hornets' nests and you
mentioned the three-tier system.
It's like a very hot topic,especially in the empty nine
space.
You mentioned some of thebenefits of people focusing on
what they're good at and thenthere being the structure, what
(12:42):
are some of the things, thedownsides or the hidden benefits
maybe, that you haven'tmentioned yet of the three-tier
system, having come from thealcohol space, experiencing it
and now being in this kind offreewheeling hemp marketplace?
Mack Hueber (12:55):
Well, one thing that's different in the
three-tier market for D9 versusalcohol is fair trade kind of
practices.
Right, in alcohol most statesyou have what's called like a
price posting, so every retailerhas access more or less to the
same volume price breaks as thelargest retailer in that state
versus the smallest mom and popindependent store.
Pay-to-play is prohibited,right, there's basically
(13:19):
guardrails in place to ensurethat again, the best products
make it on shelf, not who'smotivating the retailers the
most.
Yeah, I think that's obviouslythe bigger question around the
future of the hemp beverages.
But if I'm reading my owncrystal ball here, I see this
going more in line with TTBthree-tier model and we can
(13:42):
discuss kind of the nuances ofthat.
But the three-tier model allowsfor the smaller, discuss kind
of the nuances of that.
But the three-tier model allowsfor the smaller, mid-sized
brands to have a fighting chance.
Right For your listeners.
Ben Larson (13:51):
Like, if Budweiser or Miller is able to own their
own bars, own their own beerstores, liquor stores, that's
all they're going to sell, right, if daniel can have his own bar
, then they're only going to beselling jack daniel whiskey yeah
, well, there's been just a veryloud conversation about about
(14:11):
this topic and there's fear thatcreating the three-tier system
is handing the power over to thedistributors right, and that
they essentially you know, quoteunquote own it, but they aren't
necessarily the ones owning thestores.
Are there like backdoor dealsthere that are where the
distributors and the retailersare kind of in cahoots and like
blocking brands out, or is itactually creating this even
(14:34):
playing field for innovativebrands?
Mack Hueber (14:36):
No, I don't think we're at the state of this
category of maturity wherebrands are blocking other brands
.
I could be wrong, but I thinkthere's just retailers aren't
limiting space for this category.
If this continues to have legsright, this is retailers see the
writing on the wall.
They're obviously seeing thealcohol sales decline, rathbeer
(14:57):
declining the most right.
So we know that they want toreplace that with high margin
products, and this category fitsthat perfectly.
I think it's the challenge orthe fear around the three-tier
model the alcohol distributorsright is you have to make sure
you do your due diligence andpick the right ones.
Long-term partnerships and Ithink that's the biggest lesson
(15:19):
from this D9 venture is notletting FOMO take over and just
going with the first distributorthat says yes, it's making sure
that you really vet and ensurethat that distributor, even that
retailer, is going to live upto the promises that they say.
So you know that's kind of onething that we've really dialed
(15:40):
back is the focus on expansioninto new markets, but really
going much deeper into theexisting markets, mainly because
one we don't want to spreadourselves too thin, but it's
also I want to really invest inthe distributors, but also
really investing in heirloom.
Ben Larson (15:57):
Yeah, also, you have this kind of bifurcated
business.
You have the regulated side,the hemp side and there's a lot
of volatility with regulationsand kind of this existential
threat at the federal level.
Right, there's a lot of smartpeople working on that that
allow us to be here and justkind of keep trying to operate.
(16:17):
So thank you to all those folks.
I know people are workingreally hard on that.
I want to do a little like whathappens if a worst case
scenario does come in and ourcommunity has had the
opportunity to get exposure tothese products.
It seems that beverage is reallybecoming a category and where
(16:38):
people previously thought itwasn't going to be a thing, it
now looks like it's a thing.
Right, and people like it.
People are consuming it, peopleare repurchasing it and people
like it, people are consuming it, people are repurchasing it.
Do you think society has hadenough exposure to it now?
To where, if these productswere forced back into the
dispensaries in certainmarketplaces we'll just choose
New York Do we potentially seethat being a way to bring more
(17:00):
people into dispensaries?
Like, will these consumers ofthe hemp beverages go and grab
beverages from a dispensary?
Will that finally be a tractorfor them?
Mack Hueber (17:11):
Yeah, I mean I know you and I have been in a
cannabis beverage bubble Iimagine a lot of your podcast
audiences as well but I thinkit's no longer a proof of
concept that THC can be in a canor a single-serve 12-ounce
bottle or whatnot.
We've seen meta ads showing asGoogle Shop ads.
(17:32):
Obviously, I have family andfriends locally here who aren't
as involved in the cannabiscommunity as much as I am, but
now are actively going orordering stuff online to be
shipped right Not even fromLuther Spencer.
So I think it's just theawareness of this category has
just grown exponentially beyondwhere I thought it could be two
(17:55):
years ago.
So I think, in a worst casescenario always trying to stay
optimistic If we see theappropriations or something else
the farm bill kind of closingthis opportunity, I'm still
optimistic that there could besomething in the near future
behind that a standalone bill orsomething of a sort that would
allow this to come back, maybewith more narrower guardrails,
(18:20):
so maybe a lower potency, whoknows?
Maybe something that has to gothrough or overseen by the TTD
instead of the FDA.
I just think the cat's out ofthe bag here.
We've shown this.
The consumers want this.
We've seen music festivalspromoting this, bars and
restaurants asking for this.
(18:41):
So I just don't see how thisgoes away quietly and I know
your listeners probably wouldagree with me that no one's
going to go away without takingin streaming here but I think
the format is now more widelyknown that, sir, in states where
there is only adult use allowedand not D9, like in New York,
(19:04):
yeah, there might be some uplift, but it's never going to
replace what the D9 market was.
If that comes Again, I thinkit's just more exposure that
this brand, this productcategory, this format exists,
which not many people knew abouta couple years ago.
Ben Larson (19:21):
And with the softening alcohol sales we have
more partners and leverage thanever before in helping to try to
procure that future.
I do think there will always bea contingent of folks, because
it is such a wide marketplaceright now beyond beverage that
people will be kicking andscreaming, no matter what the
scenario is.
And I have heard a littlebirdie tells me that with the
(19:46):
federal conversation that capslike potency caps are being
negotiated and considered.
So we'll see That'll be comingdown the pike.
But when it comes to the NewYork marketplace, give us a
little reminder update on kindof what is available from a,
from a legal aspect in the hempcategory.
And I know that there's beennews coming out of New York
(20:09):
where they just keep kind offumbling it.
It seems like in some ways,like many other states,
regulators just can't get out oftheir own way and just are
determined to make this hard forthe regulated space, which is
really disconcerting as we'retrying to marry these two
marketplaces.
Mack Hueber (20:24):
Yes, I mean kind of two issues there.
One, the hemp side, yeah,places.
Yes, I mean kind of two issuesthere.
One, the hemp side yeah, foryour listeners, right?
So New York regulations changedback in 2023 that restricted an
intoxicating hemp product tohave a cap of one milligram per
serving.
And a beverage in New York canalways only be one serving,
whether it's a 64-ounce Pepsisoda bottle or you know a little
(20:48):
five hour energy shot.
So we can't take advantage ofthat.
Oh, this is five servings in acan, so it's really one
milligram Delta nine THC per 12ounce can, plus the 15 milligram
ratio of CBD or CBGs.
You have to have a one to 15.
And can you do?
Can?
Ben Larson (21:05):
you do on-prem with that?
Do they serve in bars andrestaurants?
You can.
So you basically have to have a.
Uh, retailers have to have aone to 15.
And can you do on-prem withthat, Do they?
Mack Hueber (21:09):
serve in bars and restaurants you can.
So you basically have to have aretailers have to have a hemp
retail permit.
It's like 300 bucks.
It's pretty much an automaticissuance as long as you apply
online right away.
So we are seeing some retailers, especially on-premise.
We do a one milligram microhere in New York and seeing
really good success in the sensethat especially the on-premise
(21:31):
operators want thatsessionability.
The one milligram is not foreveryone.
Maybe most of your listenersprefer a much higher dose but
it's a great introductoryproduct for the new cannabis
consumer.
Ben Larson (21:46):
Yes, I love this product.
This is my favorite one.
This is the Honeycrisp.
So one milligram THC, 15milligrams of CBG, and it's made
with the cider from the114-year-old farm.
Mack Hueber (21:59):
Yeah, exactly.
So that is our eight-ouncemicro one milligram THC drink.
That's just sold in New York.
That's sold on our farm, right,so we can introduce people
coming up to grab apples or ouralcohol products.
But that Honeycrisp really isour bread and butter.
It's our flagship product.
We have it in a 5 milligram B9.
(22:20):
We have it in a 10 milligramadult use for dispensaries in
New York.
We also have it as a 3milligram in Connecticut.
So we have multiple potenciesfor the same liquid.
But that's the best product toreally merge the Beacon Stiff
heritage brand with the newHeirloom innovation.
So taking something that weliterally brew on the farm,
(22:41):
press it and add the THC fromthe plants that we grew here as
well, that's amazing.
Ben Larson (22:46):
Yeah, and all that effort, all that heritage.
Is that resonating withcustomers Like how do they like
this product?
Mack Hueber (22:53):
They love it and it's our number one product in
New York, both in dispensariesand in the micro the hemp
channel.
But we knew New Yorkers loveapples, but that's even our
number one few down south in theB9 markets.
So it's amazing to see thatstyle of liquid resonate with so
many consumers outside of ourhome market.
(23:15):
And it's easy to tell peoplefrom upstate New York okay,
heirloom is Beacon Skiff.
They can make that connection,you know, knowing that that
apple was grown in our farm.
It's still amazing to see thatpeople want to try this product
somewhere far away from New Yorkwithout knowing the context
behind it.
Ben Larson (23:33):
So, talking about New York, there was this recent
article I just saw where they'rereassessing how to measure the
distance of a dispensary from aschool or church and there's
certain minimums that must bemet and it went from doorway to
doorway, to premise to doorway,and it seems like such a silly
thing to implement.
(23:54):
After the fact, this couldimpact 50 plus dispensaries, I
think Over 100, yeah, over 100.
Excellent.
How is it now?
Like?
I know it was a really roughrollout for New York it has been
seeming like it's been gettingbetter over the years, like it's
been opening up.
People have been getting moreexcited about it.
(24:15):
Boots on the ground.
How are you feeling right now,with or without this news?
Mack Hueber (24:20):
Prior to last night , when this news kind of dropped
, you know, I was coming backenergized, ready to go.
I was coming back energized,ready to go and I think,
reflecting back on the New Yorkdispensary market, we've seen a
lot of momentum building.
We finally feel like we havesome wind in our sails.
But obviously last night wasreally discouraging and I think
(24:41):
a lot of questions around thisstill coming.
So I'm still kind of digestingthis, with our team
understanding which retailers,areas of the state are most
impacted by this.
I think the question on this isjust why now, like we're what,
three years into licensingprocess and they're just
(25:02):
realizing this so-called mistake.
You know, I think there's a oftheories out there.
I think it's just too early tounderstand why this decision was
made and kind of communicatedin the way it was.
And so I really feel for theretailers, the ones even
operating as well as the oneswho are just about to start
(25:22):
operating, who are now reallydealing with some hard decisions
in their future.
So I'm hopeful that thegovernor, the legislative body
of New York, can make this right.
This all kind of goes back tothe MRTA, the legalization bill
in New York.
So if we can fix that.
(25:43):
That would be great, but I'mgoing to try to stay optimistic.
Ben Larson (25:48):
like I said, Well, I mean, you've been through the
cycles with the New Yorklegislature and the OCM, and
does that give you reason to beoptimistic?
Mack Hueber (26:00):
Yeah, I think I didn't know much about
government and how it worksbefore getting into hemp and
cannabis.
I think that's something youhave to understand getting into
this space.
I'm optimistic that I think thelawmakers understand the
gravity of this situation,especially with the number of
(26:21):
social equity operators in NewYork.
I think New York market one ofthe big call-outs and
accomplishments accomplishmentsis leave over half of the retail
licenses are social equityapplicants, which is unheard of
in most cannabis markets.
So the fact that majority ofthose are the ones being
impacted by this late nightannouncement yesterday, I have
(26:44):
to imagine that lawmakers willstep up and do the right thing.
Ben Larson (26:47):
Yeah, otherwise, it just feels like this perpetual
trap that the states are puttingthese equity applicants in.
It's unfortunate.
I want to use this as a time totransition more into the
personal side.
You being a leader of acannabis brand, I'm assuming
that this wasn't on the forecastof like what do I want to be
(27:07):
when I grow up?
But you ended up here.
Yes, there's a cannabis brand.
I'm assuming that this wasn'ton the forecast of like, what do
I want to be when I grow up?
But you ended up here.
Mack Hueber (27:12):
Yeah, so just a quick backstory.
So I actually had no experiencein beverage production or in
agriculture.
I was working for an investmentbank in New York City.
I was down there for about 10years and wanted to move back
home to Syracuse where my familywas and I found and met the
family running Beacon Skiff andthey had grand vision of what
(27:35):
this staple in the community,this whole hundred-year-old
business, could be.
It wasn't status quo whichreally intrigued me.
This was nine years ago andcannabis was never in the
discussion.
But I always knew that thisfamily was never afraid to try
new things and that was justexciting to me, knowing that we
(27:57):
could build and leverage thegoodwill that this brand, this
company, has in the localcommunity of New York and trying
to venture into new categoriesat that time we're really
ramping up our alcoholhard-setter division.
But yeah, I think how I got intothe hemp and cannabis I mean
I've always been a cannabisconsumer I think after learning
for a few years how beverageproduction works in the alcohol
(28:19):
space, here is when the hempprogram, cbd market kind of
kicked off and it really camedown to just passion.
Like I'm just obsessed withlistening and reading about
cannabis beverages, hempbeverages, anything in that
realm.
And that kind of passion helpedme drive and focus more on where
I think this company, beacon'sGift, could find a niche in the
(28:41):
cannabis space.
And that was really in cannabisbeverages which, as your
listeners know, a couple ofyears ago in the adult use made
up maybe 1% of dispensaries.
But I knew that what thiscategory was missing was
scalability from an operatorstandpoint and really
experienced operators.
We could write novels of allthe mistakes we've made in the
(29:03):
decades we've been producingbeverages outside of cannabis
right.
So, taking all that, thoselearnings, bringing it to
cannabis, we knew we couldprovide value in this category
in this market with ourexpertise.
So it was really just beingaround some really great people
on our team, great operators whoI learned a ton from the
passion to always wanting tolearn more about this industry,
(29:26):
meeting folks like yourselvesand Harold to understand how
emulsions work.
You know it's kind of amazingto see over the years how we've
gotten to where we are todaybased on all the small little
wins and introductionsthroughout the years.
Ben Larson (29:40):
And so you have this 100 plus year old apple orchard
family that has, over the lastdecade, migrated into hemp and
cannabis.
The Apple operation is stillgoing on.
How do these two differentagricultural products, the ethos
of the two, has the familyfully adopted it?
I guess it's not easy, as wewere talking about, and so it
(30:01):
takes some resolve at this pointand some commitment to really
see it through.
And so, yeah, I'm curious as tohow that's been integrated as
far as the entire company goes.
Mack Hueber (30:12):
Yeah, I think that's one thing, that we
weren't going to just kind ofdip our toes into this.
And you know, when the familiesdecided to get into hemp and
cannabis, we made it known toour local community.
We definitely got some pushback, but I think we've gained so
many more customers since then.
(30:33):
It's the same thing when BeaconCity introduced our alcohol
brand 15 years ago.
There was a lot of pushback ofbringing alcohol to an apple
orchard where people bring theirkids, but now most people come
mainly for the alcohol.
So I think what we realized iswe weren't going to hide the
fact that we were getting intothis.
We were going to leverage ourgoodwill in the community and
(30:55):
our reputation to be like we'regetting into this.
We see the benefits of it.
We make great alcohol that isnot really making anyone's lives
better on a daily basis.
This cannabis we can feelreally good about knowing that
people consuming that areactually enhancing or bettering
their lives on a daily basis.
This cannabis we can feelreally good about knowing that
people consuming that areactually enhancing they're
bettering their lives on a dailybasis.
Ben Larson (31:14):
I've actually really appreciated Eddie's.
Eddie Brennan is the presidentco-owner.
He's been actually outspokenand supportive of the category
and I've seen him attacked inthe comments by some of that.
The old community where they'rejust like what are you guys
doing, like this, is poison.
And the way he stands up forthe category I felt was really
(31:36):
genuine and it was reallyappreciated.
Mack Hueber (31:39):
Yeah, I'm really grateful that Eddie and his
family felt so strongly thatthey needed to do that, because
it's what this industry needs.
That was a couple of years agowhen we first kind of made the
announcement.
I think now we're seeing muchless hate mail and more
appreciative thank you emailsfor how much heirloom products,
(32:00):
or CHC products in general, arehelping people's daily lives.
Ben Larson (32:05):
Wow, that's incredible.
I love those.
Data points are just reallyimportant for us to understand
the progress that we're makingover the years.
You know, it's like it's reallyeasy to get wrapped up in the
roller coaster of politics orjust the ups and downs of
business, but when we do zoomout and see how much we've
(32:27):
progressed in the greatermovement, it's really something
to be proud of.
My colleague at NCIA, aaronSmith, the founder, is
transitioning from the CEO roleafter 20 years of doing this and
moments like that you take astep back.
It's like wow, how far we'vecome.
I know it's painful, I knowit's arduously slow, but like
(32:50):
how far we've come.
In that that that time periodis is incredible, feels like
it's accelerating because of ofthis beverage category.
How are you managing this as aleader?
Like you have a team.
Some of them are experienced inthe hemp and cannabis space.
Some of them come in from thehemp and cannabis space, some of
them come in from the outside.
What's your advice to the teamto kind of keep them optimistic,
(33:14):
to keep them motivated?
What's your leadership style innavigating through that?
Mack Hueber (33:19):
Yeah, well, I think you hit the nail on the head
when look, especially incannabis, as your listeners know
right, it's the daily grind,the beatings you take, whether
it's from regulators, newlooming legislation in New York,
biotrack implementation that'scoming any day now.
Accounts receivable yeah,accounts receivable.
I think it's really alwaystaking a step, reflecting back
(33:42):
as how far we've come and evenin cannabis, looking back within
three months, especially in NewYork, it's really eye-opening
and rewarding to see how farwe've come as a team.
You need to focus on the dailytasks at hand, but taking a step
back, weekly or every otherweek basis that we try to do
with our team just to make surethey see that what we're doing
(34:05):
is working.
I know it sounds simple, butreally I'm very blessed that I
have an amazing team here.
I'm not just saying that.
We really brought in what Ithink is the best in class team
leaders, really from outside ofcannabis.
We wanted to bring in peoplefrom true operators who ran
(34:26):
beverage production or foodpackaging facilities not even
cannabis bringing theirexpertise in and then I can
teach them about cannabis, andso I think we've had a lot of
success doing that.
Bringing in outsiders whospecialize, have their niche of
industry.
They work in bringing them intothe cannabis space here,
(34:46):
educating them, and then theycan bring all their learnings
and expertise from their priorroles.
Ben Larson (34:52):
Yeah, I love seeking that talent and bringing in and
just adding it to whatever theteam didn't previously have.
In doing that and understandingthe ups and downs of the
industry, we have found thatit's been helpful to find people
that are passionate about theplant and have a reason to
(35:13):
navigate the ups and downs ofall this.
And I'm curious do you do asimilar filtering of somehow?
Is there any particularquestion you ask about people's
familiarity or love?
Mack Hueber (35:25):
for the plant.
Make sure we have a smokingsession during the interview
process.
No, no, it's not a requirement,obviously, for the team members
here to be consumers.
They just have to be passionateabout this industry and what it
can bring to potential otherconsumers.
And I think that's really it.
The passion has to be recognizedthat day one with a candidate
(35:50):
and that passion can come fromreally intellectual curiosity
just trying to.
You know if they're coming tome on the first time, meeting
them with everything they'vebeen reading, listening to
podcasts like this there'sreally no tried and true
playbook in cannabis, so Iappreciate people who come as
candidates for roles here, whohave really scoured the internet
(36:12):
, podcasts, trying to learn asmuch as they can, and that just
shows me, okay, your passion toreally understand where the
industry is at and where itcould be.
I just want to see that driveand that excitement, but it's
not going to be like any otherbeverage producer or gummy
producer or even our cultivationteam.
It's not going to be like anyother beverage producer or gummy
producer or even you know, ourcultivation team.
Ben Larson (36:31):
It's not like growing apples yeah, going back
to when we first startedtogether, like in 2019, the, the
candidate pool, looked a lotdifferent than it does today and
that's one of my markers forhow we're developing as a
mainstream category and like thetalent that we get to choose
from now is really awesome.
But I do want to give creditwhere credit's due.
(36:53):
I remember when we startedworking with you guys and we saw
the first beverage facilitythat you'd built and how that
was a moment for us for howexcited we were for that next
level of operator to come in thesophistication of of the
facility.
I just remember the team comingback and you have to see this
facility.
It's beautiful.
(37:14):
What excites you about thefuture, like a year from now?
What do you imagine those likethose signals being like who,
who's coming in the space?
Where are we?
Yeah, what do you?
What are you driving towards?
Mack Hueber (37:25):
I think, um, if we look at just the products
themselves, I think there's somuch more innovation coming.
We've seen really a lot of theinnovation coming from an
avinoid plus functionalingredients and liquids.
I think we're just kind of atthe very beginning stages of
(37:46):
what that could look like.
I think there's going to be alot of challenges with consumer
education on what works, whatdoesn't work, but I think
effect-based beverages is goingto be a huge thing.
We've seen the success inedibles, gummies in particular.
I have a lot of conviction thatwe're going to see something
(38:09):
similar in a beverage format.
I also am really interested tosee like what kind of liquids
continue to come out, not justthe ingredients.
But you know, we did somethingthat was pretty unique.
Uh, two months ago we launcheda de-alkalized hard cider rose
infused with thc and CBC.
So I know you were holding upour Honeycrisp drink.
(38:30):
But this actually touches oneother facility, our alcohol
facility.
So we grow the apples, we pressit, we ferment it, so it's
actually a hard cider.
We then run it through ade-alkalized machine so it pulls
all the alcohol, but it stillhas that alcohol taste profile.
It's drier, less sugar andadding in that thc.
(38:53):
So that was a really a momentto reflect back on like, wow, I
never would have thought thatwould have been possible.
You know, two or three yearsago, when we were talking about
thc beverages.
You know I'm excited to seemore non-alcohol or
de-alcoholized products likebeers, wines and so forth.
Ben Larson (39:10):
Was that a limited run product and where was it
available?
Mack Hueber (39:14):
I told the team that at first, but I think it's
going to be a year-round productnow.
Ben Larson (39:17):
It's all right, that's what Taco Bell does.
They have their special menuand things make their way to the
regular menu.
Excellent.
As we approach the top of thehour, I have to get this
question out.
I couldn't tie it to anythingelse that we were talking about.
Maybe I should have done in thebeginning.
Where does the name Heirloomcome from?
And I know I'm sure you'reaware it was commented on the
event post.
(39:37):
You know there's a little bitof confusion between AYR and
Heirloom.
Where does it come from?
Mack Hueber (39:44):
No, it came from my wife.
I got to give her credit forthat, but it really.
It's a name that ties heritageand quality together, right?
So again, the parent companyBeacon Skiffs.
It's fifth generation familyrun, still by the Beaks and the
Skiffs.
Just like most families thatpass things down, you have a
family heirloom right as well asjust like there are heirloom
(40:06):
right as well as just like thereare heirloom tomatoes, there
are heirloom apples, and theymake the best quality hard cider
.
So that's where the name camefrom.
Obviously, we wanted to changeup the spelling for ip, you know
, trademark reasons, yeah, soheirloom, no relation to the
other a little.
Ben Larson (40:25):
Uh, just tactical advice right there.
Uh, trademark advice, all right, mac.
Well, it's time for our lastcall.
It's time for you to give yourfinal message to our listeners.
Anything you want, advice, callto action.
Closing thoughts what is it?
Mack Hueber (40:44):
cannabis or otherwise.
I'm still going to be theoptimist in the room here.
I know there's a lot of loomingconcerns at the federal level
with B9, but I still think.
Look, I think the cannabisbeverage category format is here
to stay and I think, whetheryou're a retailer, an operator
or even a creator, now is thetime to get into cannabis
beverages.
I think we've seen the adoptionrate of consumers gravitating
(41:10):
toward this familiar format.
The space is still wide openfor who is going to be the best
brands out there.
I think we're still at thefirst out of the very first
inning here.
I'm going to be the extremeoptimist that this category has
a lot of runway ahead of it.
Ben Larson (41:30):
I love it.
Well, the title of the show isHigh Spirits, so this is
absolutely allowed and I lovethe messaging.
Thc Beverages is here to stay.
Now is the time, Get in, andwe're just getting started.
So, Matt Huber Heirloom, thankyou so much.
Always good to catch up withyou.
This time on air for our 99thepisode.
(41:52):
Very auspicious Thanks for yourtime today, Mac.
Thank you so much, Ben.
All right, I'll talk to yousoon.
What do you think, folks?
Is THC Beverages here to stay?
Is hemp going to survive theappropriations and farm bill in
the fall?
We shall see.
Thank you so much for engaging,for liking, subscribing, doing
(42:12):
all the things.
If you like this episode,please stop and give us a review
.
It really does help us buildour listenership.
Thank you to our teams atVertosa and Wolfmeyer.
Couldn't do it without you guys, but really couldn't do it
without our amazing producer,Eric Rossetti, without you guys,
but really couldn't do itwithout our amazing producer
Eric Rossetti.
Until next time, folks, staycurious, stay informed and keep
(42:33):
your spirits high.
We'll be back with NRA nexttime.
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