August 28, 2025 • 52 mins
Lulu Tsui, co-founder of On the Revel, shares her journey from Bloomberg to becoming the "Queen of New York Cannabis" and how she's building authentic community in the East Coast market. She reveals how New York's cannabis industry has developed its own unique business culture focused on directness, accountability, and community standards.
• Raised in Eugene, Oregon by cannabis-friendly "aunties and uncles" after moving from communist China in 1979
• Started in tech in 1994, worked with Bloomberg and other major companies before entering cannabis
• Co-founded On the Revel with Jacoby Holland to create inclusive cannabis industry events
• New York cannabis market has over 450 licensed retailers with approximately 80% being social equity operators
• East Coast business culture emphasizes direct communication and face-to-face relationships
• Different consumption patterns in New York with higher demand for discrete products like vapes and edibles
• Community boards play crucial role in local licensing and neighborhood acceptance
• Maintains a "clean pool" philosophy by only working with respectful industry partners
• Building diverse team with varied expertise including legal, scientific, and marketing backgrounds
• Revelry event coming September 12th with 200+ brands and 400+ retail buyers
• Planning to launch psychedelics conference in 2026
Join us at Revelry in New York to experience the East Coast cannabis industry firsthand and witness the incredible community that's been built.
--
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lulu Tsui (00:00):
I respect however you want to run your house, your
company, and if you treat yourpeople like shit, good luck to
you.
But do not bring that into ourpool.
Like our pool is kind of cleanright now, Don't come pissing it
.
Please don't do that.
Ben Larson (00:19):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 103 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Grabstein.
We're recording Tuesday, august26, 2025.
We've got another great showfor you today.
We have Lulu Sway coming on theshow Gonna throw it down for
the New Yorkers in the crew WestCoast versus East Coast.
(00:42):
We'll see what's going on withthat, but before we get there,
All of All of All, of Anna Raehow are you doing?
How's your week going?
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:52):
My week is great.
It feels like it just gotstarted.
It's my brother's birthdaytoday.
I don't think he ever listens,but I'm just going to give him a
shout out Happy birthday.
I'm going to go surprise himlater.
Later this afternoon I got himthis really incredible velour
jumpsuit that I'm pretty excitedto give him as a gift is he a
(01:12):
velour jumpsuit type of guy, oris this just like a?
no, not at all.
He's an engineer and I feellike he needs some velour
jumpsuit in his life, so I don'tneed to make sure that he has
one.
Yeah, how about you?
What's going on in your world?
Ben Larson (01:30):
You know, kids went back to school, so that was
great.
My life can somewhat feel backto normal.
You said it feels like thebeginning of the week.
For me it just feels like we'rein a long week already.
Yesterday was just long.
There's a lot of news that'sdropping politically already.
Yesterday it was just long.
There's a lot of news that'sdropping politically.
State of california is just nota fun place to be if you're in
(01:50):
cannabis or hemp, and the statelegislature continues to run
amok and so, yeah, it's like thehighest highs and the lowest
lows all at the same time, likejust like two planes living on
them simultaneously the highesthighs and the lowest lows is
such a resonant theme, I feel itas well.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:09):
It's.
It's pretty wild in thisindustry, I think, how normal
we've, how much we've normalizedthe roller coaster, all of us.
If you're still in it like you,just have to be able to ride it
out, yeah, and get, get kind ofget through those big humps
there's been occasionally timeswhere we brought on some new
employees from outside theindustry and it's literally like
(02:29):
two or three months like.
Ben Larson (02:30):
I'm sorry, I think I've made a terrible mistake.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:35):
Well, let's jump into a little bit of news.
There is a really interestingdraft bill to regulate hemp
products that's being socializedaround the industry and around
the internet.
It has not been formallyintroduced, but it is out there
and it's Representative MorganGriffith from Virginia.
He's a Republican congressmanand it regulates hemp
(02:58):
specifically, not cannabis.
More broadly, it does thingslike formally permit
hemp-derived products includingbeverages and other oral and
inhalable products.
It would ban additives likealcohol, caffeine, nicotine and
melatonin.
It would mandate HHS to setmilligram limits for products
(03:21):
within three years or defaultlimits would kick in.
What do you think about this?
You following this news?
Ben Larson (03:28):
Well, I mean, I'm glad to hear this rumor because
it's not official.
You said right.
So I heard about a Griffithbill, I think a year plus ago,
you know when when all thisstarted going down with the farm
bill and appropriations thefirst time around.
So it's good to hear that itmight be coming back.
But I'm going to fast forwardto the end.
(03:48):
I just don't like the idea ofthings defaulting to the
inaction of the FDA or HHS.
I just think that they haveproven for decades that they are
ineffective and don't act likeCBD is still not allowed in food
.
Folks Like that's a thing.
I just don't know how toreconcile that Like the hope
(04:09):
that HHS or FDA, even under RFKJr, I just don't imagine it
getting any better.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:17):
Yeah.
Ben Larson (04:17):
I'm not excited about it Because I think some of
those limits, especially theTHC limits, are quite low.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:23):
Yeah, it has very low THC limits for sure.
I mean, I think too that thisreally seems like it's broadly a
cannabinoid legalization bill,but by focusing on hemp,
lawmakers are ignoring theexisting tension that already
exists with state licensedcannabis businesses, and I think
(04:43):
, if they're going to do somesort of broad legalization
through Congress, that theyshould be looking at more of a
one plant initiative, which iswhat we've talked about here
before at Cannabinoids Broadly,and not out and locking out the
existing state licensed cannabisbusinesses, just really
muddying the waters even more byby further creating a legal
(05:07):
pathway for hemp and not doinganything for cannabis.
It's just so, so messy, yeahthe.
Ben Larson (05:14):
The perpetual cluttering of and layering of
legislation is just gettingabsurd, right and like.
We're witnessing this at thefederal level.
We're witnessing this at thefederal level or witnessing this
at the state level?
You know, states likeCalifornia with the, the AB
Assembly Bill eight efforttrying to a rewrite the
definition of hemp.
(05:34):
So instead of the origindefining hemp, it's basically if
it has point three, percent THCor below and originated from
hemp, then it's considered hemp.
Anything above, at any point inthe supply chain, is cannabis.
So all of a sudden it's likeokay, I see what they're trying
to do.
This is a way for them tofunnel it into the purview of
(05:57):
the DCC.
I was in Sacramento recently.
I saw some new amendmentscirculating eight months into
the process, mind you, newamendments that completely
changed the intention of thebill.
The bill was originallyintended to allow for some
hemp-derived minor cannabinoidsto enter the cannabis supply
chain so that we can continue toenjoy products that have a mix
(06:20):
of THC, cbn, thcv you know morenuanced products.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:25):
The regulated supply chain doesn't produce
those cannabinoids anymore.
Ben Larson (06:30):
No, but there's certain contingents of growers
and operators that like to claimthat it's going to kill their
business if you allow for theseminor cannabinoids to enter the
fray.
Like I'm sorry.
Try to go out and acquiremetric CBD and compare that to
the price of CBD in the openmarketplace, Like it's absurd.
(06:51):
So these recent amendmentswould essentially ban hemp
extracts and hemp finished formproducts from entering the state
.
So it's a hemp bill to promotehemp growing in California, but
if those hemp plants or theirextracts at any point exceed
(07:13):
0.3% THC will be consideredcannabis.
It's a bullshit bill.
Now.
It was originally sponsored byCCIA and I think folks like
Akiva, and so it's like it'scompletely just lost the thread
and that is Sacramento politicsat this point in time.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:29):
Well, Gavin Newsom is very busy trolling
Donald Trump and gerrymandering.
Ben Larson (07:36):
I was up there.
All anyone talked about wasgerrymandering.
I'm just like, oh my God, whata circus.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:42):
All right.
Well, let's leave California onthe table for now.
We are going to talk about onemore story and then we'll bring
on Lulu.
So we've got prohibitionists inthe federal government and all
around DC.
(08:05):
Recently, there was a broadcoalition of anti-drug and
religious groups that were ledby Kevin Sabet, who sent a
letter to Trump urging him tooppose marijuana rescheduling.
But interestingly, and what Iwanted to bring to the table, is
that one of the notablesignatories is the DEA Employees
Association, the FederalNarcotic Agents, which
represents the DEA personnel,the very agency currently
reviewing the reschedulingprocess, and they are saying
(08:30):
that Trump should oppose it.
And the letter doesn't admitthat keeping cannabis
criminalized protects their jobs.
Instead, it leans on oldarguments saying that marijuana
has no medical value, thatrescheduling would give
dispensaries, who are actuallystreet dealers, $2 billion of
tax breaks, and thatinternational cartels would
(08:51):
somehow benefit from thesefederal deductions.
But to me, I see that the realconflict is that fewer cannabis
arrests means less job securityfor these agents.
So, rather than embracingrescheduling as a way to free up
resources to fight genuinelyharmful crime, they're using
fear tactics to preserveprohibition and protect their
(09:11):
budgets.
Ben Larson (09:12):
This is this is the exact same strategy that they
implemented to criminalize weedback in the 1920s and 1930s.
Right Like this was theplaybooks like oh, we lost
alcohol prohibition, so how dowe spend our time and money?
Let's criminalize weed.
So it's the same playbook andit's so transparent, but it's
(09:33):
happening everywhere.
And not to bring it back toCalifornia.
But every conversation I'm inin Sacramento I hear about DCC's
opinion and I'm like DCC's aregulator.
They're there to regulate thelaws that are handed to them.
The fact that they haveopinions makes me just so
infuriated with politics ingeneral, and this is just
another case.
When you said letter in DC, Ithought you were going to talk
(09:55):
about Attach and their letter.
That caused the whole kerfufflewith our friends at CanRA and
the FDA, with their personalinformation being socialized,
but I'll leave that aside, yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:07):
I mean, it's one of these things where we are
constantly reminded that kindof economic influences have a
huge kind of outsizedrelationship to the way that
policy moves.
Outsized relationship to theway that policy moves.
(10:28):
And it came up a lot in earlydrug reform movement when you
had the Corrections OfficersAssociation fighting against
drug policy reform, and it wasreally because there was a lot
of small communities that hadthese huge, massive prisons
built in them and they depend onthose jobs to keep their towns
alive, and so in order to keepthe prison open, you need to
(10:50):
keep criminalizing people and wejust create these terrible
feedback loops in our societysometimes that reinforce the
wrong things, and unwinding themis often a lot more complicated
than just doing the sensiblepolicy change.
But that seems so obvious,right?
Ben Larson (11:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, one state that is notfree of challenging politics and
policy is New York, and so I'mexcited to jump into our show
today.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:20):
Yes, today's guest is Lulu Sui, co-founder
and chief experience officer onthe Revel, the company behind
Revelry, which is an eventthat's coming up that we're
going to hear about today, andLulu has expertise in experience
, design and user experience.
She's worked with majorcompanies like Bloomberg and
(11:41):
MasterCard and Johns Hopkinsbuilding software platforms and
tools, but she's also done thatfor cannabis and psychedelics
and, through her work on theRebel and beyond, she's been a
champion for community andnormalization and innovation in
the space.
I think of Lulu as the queen ofNew York, someone who knows
everyone and who everyone knows,or thinks they do.
(12:02):
But today we're hoping, hopingto get the real, real with Lulu.
So welcome, what's up, guys.
Lulu Tsui (12:08):
And I'm making me blush.
Thank you.
Ben Larson (12:11):
Yeah, lulu, I mean it's all true and hearing that
intro it feels like you've livedmultiple lives and I'm excited
to dig into that because anytimeI go to New York or hear about
it it's like, oh, you got tocheck with Lulu.
But, funny story, before we getstarted, you also have a
presence in Miami.
The last time we hung out wasat Canadaticon, down there on
(12:34):
the beach.
I remember I was.
We were having a happy hourdrinking some cannabis beverages
on the beach.
It was beautiful.
And this plane flies by withthis banner and it says Nelly
and Ashanti at 11 and I was likeNelly and Ashanti.
I'm like my 20 year old selfwas like just so excited.
But I'm like ah, whatever.
And we were sitting at dinnerthat night and all of a sudden I
(12:57):
get a text that says Lula has atable at 11.
I'm like no way fast forward.
We were like bird's eye view ofNelly.
No way fast forward.
We were like bird's eye view ofnelly, ashanti and fat joe came
on the stage and I was just my20 year old self, was just
having a heyday.
But you got this big welcomebanner on the digital billboard
that said welcome back, lulu.
Lulu Tsui (13:18):
And I'm like, wait, lulu owns miami too um, that was
an epic night, to be sure.
It was 11th, 10 yearanniversary and the leadership
at 11 has been really, reallykind to me.
So they're like really amazingpeople and you could tell right.
Every the whole staff was supersweet and super nice and was
very genuine.
(13:39):
But when you have leadership atthe top, you know like
exhibiting really likeapproachable and positive energy
.
I think it trickles down to therest of the staff and the team.
So like that was, yeah, they'revery, very nice to me, so shout
out to 11.
Ben Larson (13:56):
Amazing.
Well, that's all I hear aboutyou.
You built this huge communityin New York.
I presume that you mirror thatin kind of how you build your
ecosystem, but tell us how itall started.
How did you go from Bloombergand all this like software work
to being the quote, unquoteQueen of New York cannabis?
Lulu Tsui (14:16):
Keep making me blush, you guys.
I started with all cannabisrelated things when my parents
moved with me from China toEugene Oregon in 1979.
I think we were one of thefirst families they let out
quote unquote officially frommainland China.
So, being from the North,there's no exposure to Western
culture at all.
It was, like you know,communist countries were very
(14:39):
isolating at that time.
So when we got to Eugene Oregon, the people that you know
helped acclimate my family toAmerican culture, you know,
babysat me, took me to the deadshows, exposed me to crystal
energy healing, that went to doTai Chi with my family on the
weekends and we're reallyinterested in herbal medicine.
(14:59):
They were all American, eugeneOregon cannabis cannabis growers
and kind of distributors, andat that time there was just all
the things that are quoteunquote popular.
Now I was raised by thoseaunties and uncles.
So when I was curious about,you know, cannabis, I was 13.
My aunt went and procured andsat with me when I you know she
(15:19):
gave me eight bomb hits.
I think she was actually tryingto deter me from consuming more
, but you know I fell in lovewith it.
And then when I was curiousabout psychedelics, my uncle
wouldn't got mushrooms for meand sat with me.
So I've just had a verydifferent experience.
I think, ben, you canappreciate this as an Asian
family.
Being open to plant medicinekind of set the standard for
(15:42):
really understanding that if youhave community that talks about
it in a different way, thattreats it in a different way,
even the most hardcore I calledthem like Chinese communist
dragon parents they're open toit.
You know they're like extremelyconservative, but they're open
to anything plant medicine.
And then, of course, when Iturned 18, I was like get me the
(16:04):
fuck away from these Birkinsbox and hemp bracelets.
So I, you know, school inWashington where I fell into
tech.
It's just like I'm going todate myself, but I started doing
tech in 1994, designingwebsites, and then kind of grew
along with that industry andthen, you know, moved to New
(16:25):
York for the first time in 1999.
The winter freaked me out.
I went to San Francisco, spent10 years in San Francisco but
been back and forth with NewYork, and then moved to LA,
lived there for six years, backand forth in New York, and now
full time here since.
Yeah, so I've been in New Yorkfor since 2006.
(16:46):
And then 2015,.
Washington Market opened up andmy friends were, like, can you
come out here and maybe like,look at the software, because
the track and trace system justdoes not map to anything that
we're doing.
So I flew to washington stateand at that moment the track and
trace program shut off theirapis.
So I was like I really can't domuch.
But and my friends from rootsciences and um suspended brands
(17:09):
and they were tier threeproducers, processors said why
don't you just stay and figureout if there's something you
want to do?
So I literally shadowed them,um, and did all of their like,
design and things like that,shadowed them for about two and
a half years stay at the farm,um and then went along with them
as they were building outfacilities for the manufacturing
processing side of the houseand, with my background user
(17:30):
experience, you know just kepton asking questions and learning
from that way, just byobserving and asking questions.
And here we are in New Yorkwith our market opened.
Jacoby Holland, my co-founder,and I met in 2016 in New York
and we were both trying tolaunch a tech platform and then
we basically came together andanytime we went to conferences,
(17:54):
we were just like some of theseconferences just don't represent
us.
You know it's not kind of likethe vibe that we like.
You know there's a lot ofinformation that was only
available and access to peoplethat either had a lot of money
or resources.
And then we love New York.
You know there's a big passionwe have for the New York vibe
and the New York energy andpeople of New York and how they
(18:16):
do business.
So we said why don't we juststart bringing friends that we
met along the way in thecannabis industry and start
bringing them to New York,because New York is a very
different way of doing businessthan anywhere else.
So we just started seedingfriends and now some of our
friends are a part of, you know,are the regulators in New York.
(18:36):
You know some have started, youknow, really expanding and
doing a really a lot ofbeautiful business.
So, yeah, homegrown that's howwe started nine years ago.
AnnaRae Grabstein (18:46):
So cool.
So you're talking about kind ofhow you grew on the Revel,
which is the organization behindRevelry, and Ben and I talk a
lot about building community andfinding like-minded leaders and
colleagues and friends to kindof help all of us individually
up-level.
And it really occurs to me thatthat's what you were doing with
(19:08):
On the Revel and still are, andI wonder how you went from
small community, grassrootseffort into putting on this
massive event that you're aboutto put on in a couple weeks, I
mean it's all about my team andI think it's pretty amazing that
(19:29):
you know, small number ofthere's like seven of us now a
bunch of knuckleheads.
Lulu Tsui (19:34):
We're like we believe that everybody should have
access and opportunity tocannabis and all the diversity
that other states are talkingabout, like it's in our backyard
, you know, we have so manydifferent types of people from
different backgrounds, not justwhat somebody looks like, right,
but their education, theirprofessional history, their
religion, like all of the thingsthat create diversity like we
(19:54):
have that here.
So we started I mean, we justgrew.
You know, it's been nine yearsnow so we started as a meetup
and then went to like aconference, kind of TED Talk
style.
We call them our signaturetalks.
And then, as soon as the marketopened at the end of 2022, we
held our first Buyers ClubFebruary of 2023.
And that was 65 exhibitors,small tables in a gymnasium, and
(20:17):
we brought in 44 of the 60, 65or something like that card
licenses.
And I just got to say, like,without my team, the fact that
we've been able to scale so fastin two years without celebrity
endorsement, without capitalinvestment, without any
experience in trade shows, likeI think that speaks volumes to
(20:41):
the excellence and the might ofyou know our small team to be
able to do that.
I also want to say that thiscould not happen without the
community that we've spent nineyears building with and making
sure that people haveinformation and access.
So this could only happenbecause having workers can come
together and that my team and Ishare the same ethos alongside
(21:03):
with our community.
So that's summing up how it allhappened.
Ben Larson (21:07):
As someone that's constantly trying to cull or,
like focus, prioritize theirevent calendar, I'm really
intrigued by this show.
Are people from around thecountry coming out to this, or
is it purely focused on the NewYork ecosystem?
Like, how are you positioningthis, who are you going after,
(21:28):
who do you want to be attending,and how does it kind of fit
amongst the ecosystem ofconferences that have
proliferated over the years?
Lulu Tsui (21:38):
So I think what sets us apart is we are very much
aligned with what's happeningwith our market, right?
So I mean, as, let's say, I'mnot a marketer, but learning
more about marketing.
It's like you always want eyes,you always want people to come,
but as a user experiencedesigner Jacoby is also coming
from design thinking we reallytry to create programming and
(22:00):
activities and events aroundwhat the market needs.
So currently, what the marketneeds, how we started this was
hey, all the stores didn't knowhow to get in touch with the
suppliers and all the suppliersdidn't know how to get in touch
with the stores.
So our primary focus for ourbuyers club we do proper vetting
.
You know.
We want to make sure thateveryone that's coming is an
(22:22):
operator.
So I'd say 90% of all of ourattendees are retail buyers and
micro-business buyers, and ourbrands I'd say probably 85% of
all of our exhibitors are brands, not ancillary.
So at this moment in time, ourentire focus is make sure that
we are creating a space tosupport the growth of our market
(22:42):
through connecting brands withretailers.
It might change in the future,but that's what's amazing about
our team.
We're very nimble and agile, sowe're very much responding to
the market and listening to themarket versus designing things
that we think the market needs,and I think that's just a big
differentiator.
(23:02):
So, um, of course, everybody'swelcome to come, but we're very,
you know, we try to do themessaging for our attendees.
Like you know, exhibitors notgoing to want to talk to your
wife or your friend that'sinterested in cannabis, you know
, like bring them on day two.
That's why we have a day two.
Day one is concentrated POsleads all day and that's what we
(23:23):
try to encourage people to do.
And I mean we don't have toencourage much.
It's like if you've been to oneof our events, you know, if
you've asked people, like thebuzz is real, like people are
just in there doing business andthat's all they want to do.
If you've never done businesswith New Yorkers, it's extra,
extra.
You can cut to the chase.
You don't have to do these longsales cycles.
(23:45):
It's not like the West Coastwhere you and I can have a Zoom
relationship for 10 years.
New Yorkers want to shake yourhand, look in the eye, smoke a
joint, have dinner, have a drink.
It's like old world way ofdoing business and I very much
appreciate that.
I love that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:03):
I love that you just broke open about New
York, because you and I talkedlast week and you reminded me
that there's actually a lot ofreally good news coming out of
New York and the headlines don'talways sound like such good
news, but I think we should talkabout some of the good stuff
that you're witnessing and andthe energy that is flowing
through New York that makes itreally unique and special.
(24:25):
So tell us a little bit aboutabout who the operators are and
and what you're seeing in themarket.
Lulu Tsui (24:32):
I mean it's been really beautiful Cause like we
wouldn't be able to scale if ourbrands and our market wasn't
scaling.
So, like you know, we've hadsome folks are like remember the
first one we did, we were liketiny and now they're our
sponsors, so it's just beenreally beautiful to see, like
every you know, of course it's ashit show.
I'm not gonna, like you know,candy coat anything but the ones
(24:55):
.
We wanna always highlight thefolks that are actually also
putting their blood, sweat andtears, because all the new stuff
, a lot of the new stuff, arejust the stuff that we can't
control.
There's also a lot of the newstuff is caused by a couple of
people that are usually likethrowing a temper tantrum I'm
just going to call it as it isbecause they didn't get their
way.
But the majority of our marketare operators that are really
(25:20):
trying to make this work.
So I really want to make surethat when people see these news
headlines, to just try to cutout that noise and see that our
numbers are doing well.
I think the last statistic Iread, I think it was like almost
80% of our operators are socialequity.
So that has never been doneanywhere else in any other
(25:43):
market.
So I'm just really proud ofthat.
You know it might, it's never.
And market opens, it's nevereasy at.
You know, my user experienceside of my brain is like can't
we just learn from all the otherones and do it different?
But you know I have noinfluence in, in legislation and
regulation, but, um, I justthink that, like New Yorkers get
(26:07):
a really bad rep right, likeyou're not, new Yorkers are not
nice.
Um, they're very kind.
You know they will just notdeal with any of the fluff that
doesn't need to be there, causethere's like so many things to
do.
Like I just realized, if Ididn't have ADHD beforehand, I
certainly do now.
So it's just getting thingsdone.
(26:28):
I think, if you're a brand orif you're, you know, trying to
do business, I think it's justreally refreshing to be able to
actually do business quickly andI think that's part of the New
York hustle that, as animmigrant, I very much
appreciate.
Could we?
Ben Larson (26:45):
double click real quick on the equity operators,
because I have this imageblazing in the back of my head
from some of the OCM hearingswhen the rollout was going
really rough and people wereholding on to real estate and
just running out of money.
It's great to hear that thingsare thriving and that there's so
(27:07):
many equity operators.
Are they actually thriving inthe market?
Because that would be a veryunique case study compared to a
lot of the equity programsacross the country, including
here in California.
Lulu Tsui (27:19):
I think the operators that are not in the city are
probably having a lot moresuccess.
You know New York City it'svery dense.
There's just so much morecompetition, like with any like
local area.
If you put too many operatorsthere retail stores you're just
(27:39):
doing a lot of competition.
So, and I think the success ofan operator has to do with you
know, a couple other things,like you know how strong is your
team, how big is your ego?
Like how are you able to askfor help, you know?
So I mean I can't speak on allthe operators, I think we have
like 400 and over 450 retailstores open right now.
(28:04):
But you know, I think theproximity thing is crazy because
you know I hear West Coastpeople talk about like proximity
protection.
It's important to us because onthe West Coast you might have a
school or a church every coupleof miles.
In New York you can have aschool or a church every couple
of blocks.
So I think, before people haveall these opinions on the West
(28:25):
Coast about things, you alsohave to look at it from a native
or a regional point of view,because the same thing that
you're forming a judgment on onthe West Coast is just different
in New York.
Ben Larson (28:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Anyway, the last show I wasjust talking about rules with
alcohol and cannabis and thisone applies.
We were talking about labelslast week.
Proximity is another one.
It's like how many apartmentbuildings in New York have a
liquor store at the bottom andhow close are the schools and
churches to those?
Why is this any different?
Lulu Tsui (29:00):
And I think it's also different the way they
calculate proximity, because Ithink a lot of people do the
bird's eye or the crow's nestview or where they just go from
point to point, but you got totake into account the buildings
right, like something that mightjust be across the way of, like
you know, maybe like 50 feet toget access to it.
(29:22):
You have to like walk around,like if you're walking avenues
that's like almost a mile, youknow.
So it just sometimes things arejust not sensible and the way
they calculate things.
I cannot wait when sensibilitycomes back.
Ben Larson (29:36):
I mean I also just don't get it Like it's like
what's proximity do I mean?
Especially New York kids?
Lulu Tsui (29:42):
They probably walk miles a day, like I just don't
know what it's defending against, like seeing it from the church
, seeing it from the school,yeah, I think it's just
religious organizations andchildren not being in their
purview, as, I don't know, it'sjust.
I just feel like the governmentjust never trusts its citizens,
(30:03):
you know, and it's alwayscreating things to control
factor or whatever reason.
You know, I have my ownpersonal opinions.
I just turned 50 and I'm likeI've stepped out of the matrix
and I think things you know, seethings very clearly now.
It's just not sensible and youknow, I think we all come from a
place of, you know, in thecannabis space, of at least
(30:25):
trusting the consumers andtrusting that they can make
decisions, like the fact that wecan't have two vices together
at once, even though we grew upprobably drinking and smoking
weed together at a party andwe're all alive, forget that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (30:48):
Well, yeah, I think that's interesting and I
think consumer habits andproducts are also showing
themselves to be a little uniquein New York as well, when you
look at the form factors thatare moving with the most
momentum in the market.
It's not quite the same as someof the other early markets and
it seems like New York's arereally leaning into discrete
consumption and manufacturedproducts more than in other
(31:10):
markets at the beginning,specifically, just that straight
up flour doesn't have as largeof a share as it has in other
markets when they've launched,and I've thought that that's
been really interesting and saysa lot about the New York
consumer.
What do you think about the waythat New York consumption
patterns are unfolding, and doesit have to do with the product
(31:33):
quality?
Does it have to do with thepeople in the market?
Why are we seeing differentconsumption habits in New York
than in other markets?
Lulu Tsui (31:39):
I think there's a couple of variables.
So I think with um, you know,new York, we started growing
first a flower first, before thestores were open, as a way to
kind of combat a lot of the um,the patterns from other States
where you kind of open at thesame time and the stores are
like have no product and thenyou have to wait for the flower
to come in.
So New York started growingflour first and I think we had a
(32:02):
year ahead to be able to dothat, but then none of the
stores opened.
So we kind of had the inverseproblem of that.
So a lot of folks, you know,just process their flour.
So we had a lot of vapes andflour come in first and less
flour but more vapes.
It's like it was just an easierway to handle the supply that
was happening in New York.
And of course, with theextracted forms, you know, we
(32:25):
could do the edibles as well,the other manufactured goods.
That was just like a brief my,maybe my opinion of why that
happened.
But I think also, you know, newYork is, they say, one of the
largest consumer markets in theworld.
And even my friends who are notheads, right, they're in
finance, they're in art they're,you know, do design, fashion,
(32:47):
all of the other cultural things.
Everybody smokes weed orconsumes weed and I think also
you have a large population thatneeds to be discreet, right?
So, like it's, it's a verydifferent mindset.
New Yorkers can be veryprogressive about culture, but
there's still it's a veryconservative state with
(33:07):
institutions, right, finance andreal estate.
So I think there's a largerconsumption for the discrete
products that you're mentioning,like having an edible, like you
can still like be a coder andgo into like Bloomberg and not
smell like weed because youdon't want to draw that
attention to you, right versusyou go to california, you know,
(33:27):
I started my tech uh experiencein 2000 and everyone like you'd
see the developers go outsidefor lunch break and they'd call
it come back in a puff smoke.
So it's just a very different umperception of what a cannabis
user is still and that's whatwe're trying to normalize and
destigmatize is, you know,having no shame.
(33:48):
You know you're still gettingyour things done and you can.
You know you're you'readvertising it by yourself, as
I'm not ashamed of this andthat's kind of what I did at
Bloomberg was I spoke openlyabout it.
I'm like, hey, I'm going to thecannabis space and and having
that energy that you're speakingto others without like hiding,
I think does does portray it injust a different way, and that's
(34:10):
what we've always tried to dowith with our revelry.
Revelry events is creating aspace where there's an
amplification of people who areinterested, who feel good about
it and who want to share, andwhen you come to revelry, the
vibe is unmatched.
So I hope you guys can make itthis year, but if not, we'll see
you next year.
Ben Larson (34:29):
Absolutely Speaking about institutions and just kind
of the influence and everything.
One of the things that I'veheard about are the community
boards and I'm wondering if youcan kind of let us in a little
bit on how New York's communityboards are shaping, you know,
the licensing or the culture andjust the interplay of, you know
(34:51):
, policy activism and just kindof like the local decision
making.
Lulu Tsui (34:56):
So I learned a lot about community boards via Mark
Fitzgerald, who's a reallyamazing human.
So imagine you have a citycouncil New York does have a
city council but now imagineevery neighborhood has kind of
like a city council.
So these are the communityboards.
If you're trying to open up aliquor store, a restaurant, a
bar, a cannabis dispensary, youhave to go and present in front
(35:18):
of the community board.
To go and present in front ofthe community board and I don't
know the exact, don't quote meon this but I do know that the
community board can eitherrecommend or not recommend a
dispensary or liquor store fromopening or not.
Ben Larson (35:31):
So again, and who usually sits on these boards.
Are they elected citizens?
Lulu Tsui (35:36):
Elected citizens.
I believe.
Don't get me If you want tolearn more about it.
Mara Fitzgerald, she's anamazing human.
She's also been, you know,working with the community
boards to set some standards andSOPs around, like how to review
and what does this mean.
So she's been very instrumentalin just getting the community
(35:56):
boards educated and, of course,every community board is a
reflection of their neighborhood.
You know, some folks are for it, Some folks are against it.
A lot of times the people thatrun might not be the voice of
the people, just like sometimeswe're seeing I mean on brand
with the United States right now.
But their community boards arevery important, I think, can be
very active and that's one ofthe biggest differences.
(36:17):
I was talking to Anna Rae aboutEast Coast, west Coast.
It's like sometimes you knowwith West Coast friends in the
industry like they'll be like oh, this person didn't pay me or
this person was such a dick, butthey don't go up to the person
like you're a fucking dick, whydon't you pay me?
You know New Yorkers will dothat.
New Yorkers will be in yourface about it and then they'll
like, even like they'll hold aprotest in front of your store
(36:38):
if you're a bad actor and Ithink that's very refreshing for
me.
You know, growing up on the westcoast, those moments where,
like, you see a friend orsomething and then it's great,
and the next moment somethingdoes this, your energy's off,
but you don't know, but they'retelling everybody else except
for you, like that kind ofpassive aggressiveness which is
just part of culture on the westcoast versus the directness on
(37:02):
the East Coast, and I find thatI thrive very much in this world
of like.
Why are you being a bitch, like?
And you can be like well,you're being a bitch and then
you're like hug it outafterwards you know, so like.
I really uncomfortably well,uncomfortably you can sit in
uncomfortable things, becauseliving in New York is very
uncomfortable period.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:19):
Yeah Well, so talk about how that translates
into business approach and theway that you curate kind of the,
the relationships at revelrywho gets to be in the room, who
doesn't?
You talked about making sureit's operators, but but I've
heard you say that you've gotkind of a fuck yes, or a fuck no
mindset.
Lulu Tsui (37:40):
So talk more about that you've got kind of a fuck
yes, or a fuck no mindset.
So talk more about that.
Yes, yeah, I mean fuck no, fuckyes.
Mindset is essentially likejust be cool, you know, don't be
abusive, don't?
You know, treat my team likeshit.
We have a handful of people onthe fuck no list and it's
because you came at us reallyaggressive in a way that didn't
have to be aggressive Like.
(38:01):
I love my team.
My team is the most kind,hearted, excellent, like doers,
and all we ask is for people tolike come through and just be
cool Like you're.
You're coming.
You're like if you're going toa friend's house, you're going
to be cool with them.
You're not going to be likegive me this, give me that, I
want this and go fuck yourself,like that's not the way to start
(38:23):
with them.
You're not going to be likegive me this, give me that, I
want this and go fuck yourself,like that's not the way to start
with us.
And you know, normally we have aprotocol.
We'll do two rounds of tryingto resolve something.
You know like hey, there's,that's part of cannabis that
people don't understand.
It's like bad things, stupidthings, things that are our
(38:44):
control, happen all the time.
That's just normal.
It's about how you can solutiontogether.
It's about how you can come andlike put your egos aside and be
like okay, we fucked up, wefucked up.
Okay, now, how are we going tosolution that together?
And I think that's the biggeststrength of my team is we can
solution together pretty quicklyin a respectful, respectable
way.
But if we go two rounds andwe're like hey, these are some
of the options, like we justwant you to be nice to our team
(39:06):
and you come back saying, gofuck yourself, it's going to be
an automatic fuck no dude.
Like we're very nice until youinsult someone on my team Like
that's just, that's just how itis.
Like, and again, I respect.
However, you want to run yourhouse, your company, and if you
treat your people like shit,good luck to you.
But do not bring that into ourpool.
Like, our pool is kind of cleanright now.
(39:27):
Don't come pissing it.
Please don't do that.
It's not like we have a wholefuck no list.
The opportunity is here.
Everybody should come toRevelry.
We're not trying to gatekeep ortrying to exclude anyone at all
.
All we're asking is just kindof like hey, we're throwing a
cool party that everyone seemsto be vibing with.
(39:49):
Come through for sure, butdon't be weird and don't be rude
and don't treat my team likeshit.
That's where it comes from.
Ben Larson (39:59):
I love that.
One of the books that Irecommended the most over the
years is a book calledEssentialism, and one of the
main tenants of that book isthat if it's not a hell yes,
it's a hell no, and it's just away for us to focus our time and
energy on the positive thingsthat drive our business forward.
Lulu Tsui (40:17):
Yeah, I mean, like, if you're being rude, you know
we have a fuck.
No, because this woman came inyelling at our exhibitors,
yelling at the retailers,yelling at me, and I'm like, bro
, like what the fuck dude?
Like, clearly you're yelling atall of these exhibitors that
you could be working with,you're yelling at all the stores
that you could actually sellproduct to.
(40:38):
Now you're throwing a fit infront of your consumers.
Like what are you doing?
You know, like, what are youdoing?
Like it, and I was just like.
It was the first time I had tocall security to have someone
escort it.
You know like, in the sevenyears at that time, we've never
had any issues with you know,like, like, except for this one
situation.
Ben Larson (40:57):
Yeah, let's dive into the team a little bit, just
because I know that diversityis not just race right.
Like, obviously, east Coast,west Coast, asian descent, like,
how do you think of diversity,especially as it pertains to
building your team?
Lulu Tsui (41:16):
I think it's just really important to have
different points of view.
Again, solutioning right Likecoming together defines a
solution together.
So Jacoby Holland is myco-founder.
He's actually a mathematician,so you know, and he started at
one of the first grows politicalgrows in Colorado, and he and I
met we're both in tech and youknow he's half black and he's
(41:39):
half white.
If we want to talk about race,he's probably like what?
20 years younger than me.
You know different, verydifferent perspective.
Peter Mercado he is aneuroscientist, you know, and
he's Dominican and Puerto Rican,also just turned 30, I believe.
And then Jason Starr he is ahuman rights lawyer by trade.
(42:02):
He co -wrote Cuomo's CRTA butthen also helped with authoring
parts of the MRTA, which is ourlegislation for cannabis.
Then we have Saki Fenderson,who is just longtime advocate,
community builder, instructor,teacher, you know production,
(42:24):
all the things.
And then Geraldine May Cuevacomes from you know marketing
and trade shows in terms of likeattending as well as exhibiting
.
And then we just brought onDelilah Ware, who is our LIM
graduate.
So our school, our college, limCollege, actually has a
(42:47):
business in cannabis program.
So she just graduated, so she'sthe kind of baby of the group.
So I'm talking about buildingout a really well balanced team
that can answer questions like Idon't know everything.
You know, if someone asked meabout cannabinoids, I'd be like
I don't know everything, but youknow, peter can answer that
right.
If I had something aroundlegislation or regulate
(43:11):
regulatory framework, jasonwould be the person to answer.
So it's like it's building,like I always always say, like
imagine if we're the littlelions and we come together, as
Voltron, like everyone is anexpert to subject matter expert,
and together we can cometogether and just build
something greater or answerthings quickly or solutions
together in a way that makes nosense.
So that's what I mean bydiversity.
Ben Larson (43:33):
I just appreciate you using the Voltron reference
when you could have.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:42):
I'm the Voltron crew too, like Power
Rangers, got nothing on them.
So, lulu, we're getting closeto the end of the hour and I
guess I want to hear what you'remost excited about for Revelry,
that's coming up.
Lulu Tsui (43:54):
I mean, I just think it's been at this moment in time
.
It is a really beautiful momentin our cannabis history, right
Like market is coming along.
Now.
I don't know how things aregoing to go in the future, but
I'm just really grateful thatwe're part of this moment and
that, you know, we're seeing theoperators grow and there's a
lot of stuff that's stillhappening with the lawsuits and
(44:14):
all of that.
But I don't really want tofocus on that too much.
It's the fact that, um, we havepeople, we have New Yorkers who
are usually pretty judgmentalabout things um, actually
enjoying things and smiling andexcited and coming together and
celebrating in the way that onlyNew Yorkers do.
You know.
We're going to have our buyersclub on Friday, september 12th.
(44:38):
So we have probably over 200brands right now.
We'll probably bring in justover 400 retail buyers and
micro-business buyers to comethrough.
Day two is our consumer day.
Like I mentioned before, atthat moment we started consumer
day, there really wasn't avendor days available, so our
(44:59):
you know solution to that waswell, the brand's already set up
.
Let's bring in the consumers in.
And then we'll also have musicand stage programming and I'm
excited to announce that we'redoing a partnership with
Smorgasbord.
If you don't know them, they'reone of the largest food
festival groups, so they'recoming in to help with the
vendors.
So it's exciting to see some ofthe crossover that's starting
(45:22):
to happen amongst the differentindustries in New York that are
larger players.
So I'm excited about that.
And then we're going to belaunching Psychedelics, our
Psychedelic conference, nextyear as well.
Say more.
Ben Larson (45:34):
That seems like a big one.
Let's talk about that.
Lulu Tsui (45:40):
Well, it's kind of the same reason why we started
Revelry.
It's because you know the twoimportant groups that make an
industry happen at the beginningare, you know, the advocates
and activists, and then also theyou know, the scientists, the
lab coats and the business guysright, the suits and the lab
(46:01):
coats.
I think all of us probably fallsomewhere in between.
So we always wanted to makesure that everyone in between
felt comfortable andapproachable, because I remember
going to some of my firstevents, I just felt extremely
like intimidated and extremelylike an outsider.
So what we're trying to do iscreate environments where
different types of people cancome together and feel confident
(46:24):
that you know they're going tobe coming and learning, and
psychedelics is kind of the nextphase.
You know, I've been working withReggie from Oakland Haifei
probably since 2019 in terms ofthat space, and I think it's
time to create a space for thosethat are interested to really
(46:47):
come together and get different,different opinions.
Like there's so many differenttypes of opinions out there.
I'm really starting to see thatthere's folks that are saying
these are the rules for this andthis is how it needs to be.
And you know, you're with ourteam or you're not, and I'm like
dude, you totally missed thewhole point of psychedelics,
right?
It's like so excited to to be,you know, curating some
(47:11):
programming about the thingswe're doing, discovery right now
, so really learning about allthe things that you know newbies
or you know curious people, oreven you know folks that are in
the industry in different waysare wanting to learn.
So we'll do a programming andthat's something you'll always
have with on the rebel events isthat we will have such diverse
(47:32):
backgrounds and opinions andeveryone on stage and everyone
in the room are going to beopen-minded to all the different
opinions and hopefully peoplewill learn some things, get
inspired by some things and justcontinuing to help normalize
and destigmatize by, you know,the way they're projecting their
energy around these topics I'm,I'm here for that, I'll be
(47:54):
there.
Ben Larson (47:54):
well, okay, lulu, I really appreciate you spending
time with us.
I have one more question foryou.
Over the years, especiallybeing here on the West Coast, a
lot of us were looking to NewYork being the tastemaker, that
it is the opportunity withnightlife just the big cultural
difference.
And then we went through theroller coaster of the rough
(48:15):
rollout.
But now you're saying thatthings are good and heading in
the right way and it's startingto sound like that.
You know there's a lot morelicensed operators.
What's on the horizon for NewYork, like, does it really have
the opportunity to kind offulfill that vision that we all
had for it back in the day, oris the conservatism going to
continue to push back for it?
And then, is that going tocontinue into this psychedelics
(48:39):
conversation that revelry is nowentering?
Lulu Tsui (48:43):
That is such a good question because I think there's
a lot of external forces thatcontribute to a lot of decision
making.
Right, it's like all of asudden we have Mamdami who is,
you know, really popular withthe people.
He's a little bit.
They're calling him socialist,communist, all these things, and
I think it's making the moreconservative folks really
(49:05):
nervous, so they're going toflex a certain way, right?
So I don't know how to answerthat.
You know, in my perfect world,yes, you know, they're going to
give us as the citizens and thebenefit of the doubt that we can
actually try new things.
All of our industries like youtalked about the nightlight
(49:25):
hospitality wouldn't it be greatif we could work with the
health department and be like,hey, let's start adding some
beverages as a test.
Some beverages as a test.
It'd be great if we could havethat for folks that don't want
to drink.
You know alternatives at all,the restaurants and bars and
clubs.
Like that would be fantastic.
It'd be great for our schoolsto start working with.
(49:51):
Like one of my dreams is, youknow when the OCM or anybody
else wants to do like aninitiative for, you know, a
campaign, whether it's harmreduction or anything.
Wouldn't it be great if weworked with the colleges that we
have here Right, like why do wewant to spend $2 million with a
government PR group thatcreates messaging that doesn't
resonate with anyone, when wehave some of the brightest
brains and, you know, doingtheir master's program for
(50:13):
advertising, design, marketing?
Like, why don't we give thosekids the opportunity to make
that their their senior thesis,right?
And then you have messagingthat hits with the people.
You have kids that actuallyhave something on their
portfolio that makes them standout.
Like can we startcross-pollinating with all the
things that are here and likesave money?
(50:34):
And just, I don't know.
And that's how my brain works.
Ben Larson (50:38):
Reach love it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (50:39):
Totally Well, Lulu, it is time for our last
call, which is your lastopportunity on the mic to leave
our listeners with some advice,a call to action or a closing
thought.
So we turn it over to you.
What's your last call?
Lulu Tsui (50:55):
I hope everyone comes out and checks out New York.
I think it can be a little bitintimidating, but you know we'd
love to welcome folks just tokind of check out what's going
on in New York and meet the NewYorkers that are here.
Yeah, I'm just kind of sorryI'm two and a half weeks out
from our event, so in my headI'm processing all of the things
(51:17):
, but I'm very proud to be partof, you know, the New York
market right now and I thinkpeople will be very surprised
when they come through and justreally see what all of the
misconceptions about how NewYorkers are.
I'm excited for folks to belike, oh my God, like that was
cool.
These people are actuallypretty cool and very, very kind.
Ben Larson (51:36):
Oh, we're proud to have you on the show and
grateful that you're spendingthis time.
I know what it's like two and ahalf weeks out from an event
your hair is on fire, you'rerunning around, but you seem
very calm, and that is amazing.
Lulu Tsui (51:48):
It's all the psychedelics, ben, it's all the
psychedelics.
Ben Larson (51:52):
Amazing Lulu Sui from On the Revel.
Thank you so much for spendingthe last hour with us.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:00):
we'll be checking in soon we appreciate
you guys we'll see you in NewYork alright, folks, what'd you
think?
Ben Larson (52:08):
thank you for engaging, liking, subscribing,
doing all the things huge.
Thank you to our teams atVirtosa and Wolfmeyer and, of
course, our producer, ericRosetti.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please stop and leave a review.
Let us be seen.
We need the help.
Apple Podcasts, spotify,youtube wherever you watch us or
(52:31):
listen to us.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and, most
importantly, keep your spiritshigh Until next time.
That's the show.
I respect however you want to run your house, your
company, and if you treat yourpeople like shit, good luck to
you.
But do not bring that into ourpool.
Like our pool is kind of cleanright now, Don't come pissing it
.
Please don't do that.
Ben Larson (00:19):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 103 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Grabstein.
We're recording Tuesday, august26, 2025.
We've got another great showfor you today.
We have Lulu Sway coming on theshow Gonna throw it down for
the New Yorkers in the crew WestCoast versus East Coast.
(00:42):
We'll see what's going on withthat, but before we get there,
All of All of All, of Anna Raehow are you doing?
How's your week going?
AnnaRae Grabstein (00:52):
My week is great.
It feels like it just gotstarted.
It's my brother's birthdaytoday.
I don't think he ever listens,but I'm just going to give him a
shout out Happy birthday.
I'm going to go surprise himlater.
Later this afternoon I got himthis really incredible velour
jumpsuit that I'm pretty excitedto give him as a gift is he a
(01:12):
velour jumpsuit type of guy, oris this just like a?
no, not at all.
He's an engineer and I feellike he needs some velour
jumpsuit in his life, so I don'tneed to make sure that he has
one.
Yeah, how about you?
What's going on in your world?
Ben Larson (01:30):
You know, kids went back to school, so that was
great.
My life can somewhat feel backto normal.
You said it feels like thebeginning of the week.
For me it just feels like we'rein a long week already.
Yesterday was just long.
There's a lot of news that'sdropping politically already.
Yesterday it was just long.
There's a lot of news that'sdropping politically.
State of california is just nota fun place to be if you're in
(01:50):
cannabis or hemp, and the statelegislature continues to run
amok and so, yeah, it's like thehighest highs and the lowest
lows all at the same time, likejust like two planes living on
them simultaneously the highesthighs and the lowest lows is
such a resonant theme, I feel itas well.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:09):
It's.
It's pretty wild in thisindustry, I think, how normal
we've, how much we've normalizedthe roller coaster, all of us.
If you're still in it like you,just have to be able to ride it
out, yeah, and get, get kind ofget through those big humps
there's been occasionally timeswhere we brought on some new
employees from outside theindustry and it's literally like
(02:29):
two or three months like.
Ben Larson (02:30):
I'm sorry, I think I've made a terrible mistake.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:35):
Well, let's jump into a little bit of news.
There is a really interestingdraft bill to regulate hemp
products that's being socializedaround the industry and around
the internet.
It has not been formallyintroduced, but it is out there
and it's Representative MorganGriffith from Virginia.
He's a Republican congressmanand it regulates hemp
(02:58):
specifically, not cannabis.
More broadly, it does thingslike formally permit
hemp-derived products includingbeverages and other oral and
inhalable products.
It would ban additives likealcohol, caffeine, nicotine and
melatonin.
It would mandate HHS to setmilligram limits for products
(03:21):
within three years or defaultlimits would kick in.
What do you think about this?
You following this news?
Ben Larson (03:28):
Well, I mean, I'm glad to hear this rumor because
it's not official.
You said right.
So I heard about a Griffithbill, I think a year plus ago,
you know when when all thisstarted going down with the farm
bill and appropriations thefirst time around.
So it's good to hear that itmight be coming back.
But I'm going to fast forwardto the end.
(03:48):
I just don't like the idea ofthings defaulting to the
inaction of the FDA or HHS.
I just think that they haveproven for decades that they are
ineffective and don't act likeCBD is still not allowed in food
.
Folks Like that's a thing.
I just don't know how toreconcile that Like the hope
(04:09):
that HHS or FDA, even under RFKJr, I just don't imagine it
getting any better.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:17):
Yeah.
Ben Larson (04:17):
I'm not excited about it Because I think some of
those limits, especially theTHC limits, are quite low.
AnnaRae Grabstein (04:23):
Yeah, it has very low THC limits for sure.
I mean, I think too that thisreally seems like it's broadly a
cannabinoid legalization bill,but by focusing on hemp,
lawmakers are ignoring theexisting tension that already
exists with state licensedcannabis businesses, and I think
(04:43):
, if they're going to do somesort of broad legalization
through Congress, that theyshould be looking at more of a
one plant initiative, which iswhat we've talked about here
before at Cannabinoids Broadly,and not out and locking out the
existing state licensed cannabisbusinesses, just really
muddying the waters even more byby further creating a legal
(05:07):
pathway for hemp and not doinganything for cannabis.
It's just so, so messy, yeahthe.
Ben Larson (05:14):
The perpetual cluttering of and layering of
legislation is just gettingabsurd, right and like.
We're witnessing this at thefederal level.
We're witnessing this at thefederal level or witnessing this
at the state level?
You know, states likeCalifornia with the, the AB
Assembly Bill eight efforttrying to a rewrite the
definition of hemp.
(05:34):
So instead of the origindefining hemp, it's basically if
it has point three, percent THCor below and originated from
hemp, then it's considered hemp.
Anything above, at any point inthe supply chain, is cannabis.
So all of a sudden it's likeokay, I see what they're trying
to do.
This is a way for them tofunnel it into the purview of
(05:57):
the DCC.
I was in Sacramento recently.
I saw some new amendmentscirculating eight months into
the process, mind you, newamendments that completely
changed the intention of thebill.
The bill was originallyintended to allow for some
hemp-derived minor cannabinoidsto enter the cannabis supply
chain so that we can continue toenjoy products that have a mix
(06:20):
of THC, cbn, thcv you know morenuanced products.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:25):
The regulated supply chain doesn't produce
those cannabinoids anymore.
Ben Larson (06:30):
No, but there's certain contingents of growers
and operators that like to claimthat it's going to kill their
business if you allow for theseminor cannabinoids to enter the
fray.
Like I'm sorry.
Try to go out and acquiremetric CBD and compare that to
the price of CBD in the openmarketplace, Like it's absurd.
(06:51):
So these recent amendmentswould essentially ban hemp
extracts and hemp finished formproducts from entering the state
.
So it's a hemp bill to promotehemp growing in California, but
if those hemp plants or theirextracts at any point exceed
(07:13):
0.3% THC will be consideredcannabis.
It's a bullshit bill.
Now.
It was originally sponsored byCCIA and I think folks like
Akiva, and so it's like it'scompletely just lost the thread
and that is Sacramento politicsat this point in time.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:29):
Well, Gavin Newsom is very busy trolling
Donald Trump and gerrymandering.
Ben Larson (07:36):
I was up there.
All anyone talked about wasgerrymandering.
I'm just like, oh my God, whata circus.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:42):
All right.
Well, let's leave California onthe table for now.
We are going to talk about onemore story and then we'll bring
on Lulu.
So we've got prohibitionists inthe federal government and all
around DC.
(08:05):
Recently, there was a broadcoalition of anti-drug and
religious groups that were ledby Kevin Sabet, who sent a
letter to Trump urging him tooppose marijuana rescheduling.
But interestingly, and what Iwanted to bring to the table, is
that one of the notablesignatories is the DEA Employees
Association, the FederalNarcotic Agents, which
represents the DEA personnel,the very agency currently
reviewing the reschedulingprocess, and they are saying
(08:30):
that Trump should oppose it.
And the letter doesn't admitthat keeping cannabis
criminalized protects their jobs.
Instead, it leans on oldarguments saying that marijuana
has no medical value, thatrescheduling would give
dispensaries, who are actuallystreet dealers, $2 billion of
tax breaks, and thatinternational cartels would
(08:51):
somehow benefit from thesefederal deductions.
But to me, I see that the realconflict is that fewer cannabis
arrests means less job securityfor these agents.
So, rather than embracingrescheduling as a way to free up
resources to fight genuinelyharmful crime, they're using
fear tactics to preserveprohibition and protect their
(09:11):
budgets.
Ben Larson (09:12):
This is this is the exact same strategy that they
implemented to criminalize weedback in the 1920s and 1930s.
Right Like this was theplaybooks like oh, we lost
alcohol prohibition, so how dowe spend our time and money?
Let's criminalize weed.
So it's the same playbook andit's so transparent, but it's
(09:33):
happening everywhere.
And not to bring it back toCalifornia.
But every conversation I'm inin Sacramento I hear about DCC's
opinion and I'm like DCC's aregulator.
They're there to regulate thelaws that are handed to them.
The fact that they haveopinions makes me just so
infuriated with politics ingeneral, and this is just
another case.
When you said letter in DC, Ithought you were going to talk
(09:55):
about Attach and their letter.
That caused the whole kerfufflewith our friends at CanRA and
the FDA, with their personalinformation being socialized,
but I'll leave that aside, yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:07):
I mean, it's one of these things where we are
constantly reminded that kindof economic influences have a
huge kind of outsizedrelationship to the way that
policy moves.
Outsized relationship to theway that policy moves.
(10:28):
And it came up a lot in earlydrug reform movement when you
had the Corrections OfficersAssociation fighting against
drug policy reform, and it wasreally because there was a lot
of small communities that hadthese huge, massive prisons
built in them and they depend onthose jobs to keep their towns
alive, and so in order to keepthe prison open, you need to
(10:50):
keep criminalizing people and wejust create these terrible
feedback loops in our societysometimes that reinforce the
wrong things, and unwinding themis often a lot more complicated
than just doing the sensiblepolicy change.
But that seems so obvious,right?
Ben Larson (11:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, one state that is notfree of challenging politics and
policy is New York, and so I'mexcited to jump into our show
today.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:20):
Yes, today's guest is Lulu Sui, co-founder
and chief experience officer onthe Revel, the company behind
Revelry, which is an eventthat's coming up that we're
going to hear about today, andLulu has expertise in experience
, design and user experience.
She's worked with majorcompanies like Bloomberg and
(11:41):
MasterCard and Johns Hopkinsbuilding software platforms and
tools, but she's also done thatfor cannabis and psychedelics
and, through her work on theRebel and beyond, she's been a
champion for community andnormalization and innovation in
the space.
I think of Lulu as the queen ofNew York, someone who knows
everyone and who everyone knows,or thinks they do.
(12:02):
But today we're hoping, hopingto get the real, real with Lulu.
So welcome, what's up, guys.
Lulu Tsui (12:08):
And I'm making me blush.
Thank you.
Ben Larson (12:11):
Yeah, lulu, I mean it's all true and hearing that
intro it feels like you've livedmultiple lives and I'm excited
to dig into that because anytimeI go to New York or hear about
it it's like, oh, you got tocheck with Lulu.
But, funny story, before we getstarted, you also have a
presence in Miami.
The last time we hung out wasat Canadaticon, down there on
(12:34):
the beach.
I remember I was.
We were having a happy hourdrinking some cannabis beverages
on the beach.
It was beautiful.
And this plane flies by withthis banner and it says Nelly
and Ashanti at 11 and I was likeNelly and Ashanti.
I'm like my 20 year old selfwas like just so excited.
But I'm like ah, whatever.
And we were sitting at dinnerthat night and all of a sudden I
(12:57):
get a text that says Lula has atable at 11.
I'm like no way fast forward.
We were like bird's eye view ofNelly.
No way fast forward.
We were like bird's eye view ofnelly, ashanti and fat joe came
on the stage and I was just my20 year old self, was just
having a heyday.
But you got this big welcomebanner on the digital billboard
that said welcome back, lulu.
Lulu Tsui (13:18):
And I'm like, wait, lulu owns miami too um, that was
an epic night, to be sure.
It was 11th, 10 yearanniversary and the leadership
at 11 has been really, reallykind to me.
So they're like really amazingpeople and you could tell right.
Every the whole staff was supersweet and super nice and was
very genuine.
(13:39):
But when you have leadership atthe top, you know like
exhibiting really likeapproachable and positive energy
.
I think it trickles down to therest of the staff and the team.
So like that was, yeah, they'revery, very nice to me, so shout
out to 11.
Ben Larson (13:56):
Amazing.
Well, that's all I hear aboutyou.
You built this huge communityin New York.
I presume that you mirror thatin kind of how you build your
ecosystem, but tell us how itall started.
How did you go from Bloombergand all this like software work
to being the quote, unquoteQueen of New York cannabis?
Lulu Tsui (14:16):
Keep making me blush, you guys.
I started with all cannabisrelated things when my parents
moved with me from China toEugene Oregon in 1979.
I think we were one of thefirst families they let out
quote unquote officially frommainland China.
So, being from the North,there's no exposure to Western
culture at all.
It was, like you know,communist countries were very
(14:39):
isolating at that time.
So when we got to Eugene Oregon, the people that you know
helped acclimate my family toAmerican culture, you know,
babysat me, took me to the deadshows, exposed me to crystal
energy healing, that went to doTai Chi with my family on the
weekends and we're reallyinterested in herbal medicine.
(14:59):
They were all American, eugeneOregon cannabis cannabis growers
and kind of distributors, andat that time there was just all
the things that are quoteunquote popular.
Now I was raised by thoseaunties and uncles.
So when I was curious about,you know, cannabis, I was 13.
My aunt went and procured andsat with me when I you know she
(15:19):
gave me eight bomb hits.
I think she was actually tryingto deter me from consuming more
, but you know I fell in lovewith it.
And then when I was curiousabout psychedelics, my uncle
wouldn't got mushrooms for meand sat with me.
So I've just had a verydifferent experience.
I think, ben, you canappreciate this as an Asian
family.
Being open to plant medicinekind of set the standard for
(15:42):
really understanding that if youhave community that talks about
it in a different way, thattreats it in a different way,
even the most hardcore I calledthem like Chinese communist
dragon parents they're open toit.
You know they're like extremelyconservative, but they're open
to anything plant medicine.
And then, of course, when Iturned 18, I was like get me the
(16:04):
fuck away from these Birkinsbox and hemp bracelets.
So I, you know, school inWashington where I fell into
tech.
It's just like I'm going todate myself, but I started doing
tech in 1994, designingwebsites, and then kind of grew
along with that industry andthen, you know, moved to New
(16:25):
York for the first time in 1999.
The winter freaked me out.
I went to San Francisco, spent10 years in San Francisco but
been back and forth with NewYork, and then moved to LA,
lived there for six years, backand forth in New York, and now
full time here since.
Yeah, so I've been in New Yorkfor since 2006.
(16:46):
And then 2015,.
Washington Market opened up andmy friends were, like, can you
come out here and maybe like,look at the software, because
the track and trace system justdoes not map to anything that
we're doing.
So I flew to washington stateand at that moment the track and
trace program shut off theirapis.
So I was like I really can't domuch.
But and my friends from rootsciences and um suspended brands
(17:09):
and they were tier threeproducers, processors said why
don't you just stay and figureout if there's something you
want to do?
So I literally shadowed them,um, and did all of their like,
design and things like that,shadowed them for about two and
a half years stay at the farm,um and then went along with them
as they were building outfacilities for the manufacturing
processing side of the houseand, with my background user
(17:30):
experience, you know just kepton asking questions and learning
from that way, just byobserving and asking questions.
And here we are in New Yorkwith our market opened.
Jacoby Holland, my co-founder,and I met in 2016 in New York
and we were both trying tolaunch a tech platform and then
we basically came together andanytime we went to conferences,
(17:54):
we were just like some of theseconferences just don't represent
us.
You know it's not kind of likethe vibe that we like.
You know there's a lot ofinformation that was only
available and access to peoplethat either had a lot of money
or resources.
And then we love New York.
You know there's a big passionwe have for the New York vibe
and the New York energy andpeople of New York and how they
(18:16):
do business.
So we said why don't we juststart bringing friends that we
met along the way in thecannabis industry and start
bringing them to New York,because New York is a very
different way of doing businessthan anywhere else.
So we just started seedingfriends and now some of our
friends are a part of, you know,are the regulators in New York.
(18:36):
You know some have started, youknow, really expanding and
doing a really a lot ofbeautiful business.
So, yeah, homegrown that's howwe started nine years ago.
AnnaRae Grabstein (18:46):
So cool.
So you're talking about kind ofhow you grew on the Revel,
which is the organization behindRevelry, and Ben and I talk a
lot about building community andfinding like-minded leaders and
colleagues and friends to kindof help all of us individually
up-level.
And it really occurs to me thatthat's what you were doing with
(19:08):
On the Revel and still are, andI wonder how you went from
small community, grassrootseffort into putting on this
massive event that you're aboutto put on in a couple weeks, I
mean it's all about my team andI think it's pretty amazing that
(19:29):
you know, small number ofthere's like seven of us now a
bunch of knuckleheads.
Lulu Tsui (19:34):
We're like we believe that everybody should have
access and opportunity tocannabis and all the diversity
that other states are talkingabout, like it's in our backyard
, you know, we have so manydifferent types of people from
different backgrounds, not justwhat somebody looks like, right,
but their education, theirprofessional history, their
religion, like all of the thingsthat create diversity like we
(19:54):
have that here.
So we started I mean, we justgrew.
You know, it's been nine yearsnow so we started as a meetup
and then went to like aconference, kind of TED Talk
style.
We call them our signaturetalks.
And then, as soon as the marketopened at the end of 2022, we
held our first Buyers ClubFebruary of 2023.
And that was 65 exhibitors,small tables in a gymnasium, and
(20:17):
we brought in 44 of the 60, 65or something like that card
licenses.
And I just got to say, like,without my team, the fact that
we've been able to scale so fastin two years without celebrity
endorsement, without capitalinvestment, without any
experience in trade shows, likeI think that speaks volumes to
(20:41):
the excellence and the might ofyou know our small team to be
able to do that.
I also want to say that thiscould not happen without the
community that we've spent nineyears building with and making
sure that people haveinformation and access.
So this could only happenbecause having workers can come
together and that my team and Ishare the same ethos alongside
(21:03):
with our community.
So that's summing up how it allhappened.
Ben Larson (21:07):
As someone that's constantly trying to cull or,
like focus, prioritize theirevent calendar, I'm really
intrigued by this show.
Are people from around thecountry coming out to this, or
is it purely focused on the NewYork ecosystem?
Like, how are you positioningthis, who are you going after,
(21:28):
who do you want to be attending,and how does it kind of fit
amongst the ecosystem ofconferences that have
proliferated over the years?
Lulu Tsui (21:38):
So I think what sets us apart is we are very much
aligned with what's happeningwith our market, right?
So I mean, as, let's say, I'mnot a marketer, but learning
more about marketing.
It's like you always want eyes,you always want people to come,
but as a user experiencedesigner Jacoby is also coming
from design thinking we reallytry to create programming and
(22:00):
activities and events aroundwhat the market needs.
So currently, what the marketneeds, how we started this was
hey, all the stores didn't knowhow to get in touch with the
suppliers and all the suppliersdidn't know how to get in touch
with the stores.
So our primary focus for ourbuyers club we do proper vetting
.
You know.
We want to make sure thateveryone that's coming is an
(22:22):
operator.
So I'd say 90% of all of ourattendees are retail buyers and
micro-business buyers, and ourbrands I'd say probably 85% of
all of our exhibitors are brands, not ancillary.
So at this moment in time, ourentire focus is make sure that
we are creating a space tosupport the growth of our market
(22:42):
through connecting brands withretailers.
It might change in the future,but that's what's amazing about
our team.
We're very nimble and agile, sowe're very much responding to
the market and listening to themarket versus designing things
that we think the market needs,and I think that's just a big
differentiator.
(23:02):
So, um, of course, everybody'swelcome to come, but we're very,
you know, we try to do themessaging for our attendees.
Like you know, exhibitors notgoing to want to talk to your
wife or your friend that'sinterested in cannabis, you know
, like bring them on day two.
That's why we have a day two.
Day one is concentrated POsleads all day and that's what we
(23:23):
try to encourage people to do.
And I mean we don't have toencourage much.
It's like if you've been to oneof our events, you know, if
you've asked people, like thebuzz is real, like people are
just in there doing business andthat's all they want to do.
If you've never done businesswith New Yorkers, it's extra,
extra.
You can cut to the chase.
You don't have to do these longsales cycles.
(23:45):
It's not like the West Coastwhere you and I can have a Zoom
relationship for 10 years.
New Yorkers want to shake yourhand, look in the eye, smoke a
joint, have dinner, have a drink.
It's like old world way ofdoing business and I very much
appreciate that.
I love that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:03):
I love that you just broke open about New
York, because you and I talkedlast week and you reminded me
that there's actually a lot ofreally good news coming out of
New York and the headlines don'talways sound like such good
news, but I think we should talkabout some of the good stuff
that you're witnessing and andthe energy that is flowing
through New York that makes itreally unique and special.
(24:25):
So tell us a little bit aboutabout who the operators are and
and what you're seeing in themarket.
Lulu Tsui (24:32):
I mean it's been really beautiful Cause like we
wouldn't be able to scale if ourbrands and our market wasn't
scaling.
So, like you know, we've hadsome folks are like remember the
first one we did, we were liketiny and now they're our
sponsors, so it's just beenreally beautiful to see, like
every you know, of course it's ashit show.
I'm not gonna, like you know,candy coat anything but the ones
(24:55):
.
We wanna always highlight thefolks that are actually also
putting their blood, sweat andtears, because all the new stuff
, a lot of the new stuff, arejust the stuff that we can't
control.
There's also a lot of the newstuff is caused by a couple of
people that are usually likethrowing a temper tantrum I'm
just going to call it as it isbecause they didn't get their
way.
But the majority of our marketare operators that are really
(25:20):
trying to make this work.
So I really want to make surethat when people see these news
headlines, to just try to cutout that noise and see that our
numbers are doing well.
I think the last statistic Iread, I think it was like almost
80% of our operators are socialequity.
So that has never been doneanywhere else in any other
(25:43):
market.
So I'm just really proud ofthat.
You know it might, it's never.
And market opens, it's nevereasy at.
You know, my user experienceside of my brain is like can't
we just learn from all the otherones and do it different?
But you know I have noinfluence in, in legislation and
regulation, but, um, I justthink that, like New Yorkers get
(26:07):
a really bad rep right, likeyou're not, new Yorkers are not
nice.
Um, they're very kind.
You know they will just notdeal with any of the fluff that
doesn't need to be there, causethere's like so many things to
do.
Like I just realized, if Ididn't have ADHD beforehand, I
certainly do now.
So it's just getting thingsdone.
(26:28):
I think, if you're a brand orif you're, you know, trying to
do business, I think it's justreally refreshing to be able to
actually do business quickly andI think that's part of the New
York hustle that, as animmigrant, I very much
appreciate.
Could we?
Ben Larson (26:45):
double click real quick on the equity operators,
because I have this imageblazing in the back of my head
from some of the OCM hearingswhen the rollout was going
really rough and people wereholding on to real estate and
just running out of money.
It's great to hear that thingsare thriving and that there's so
(27:07):
many equity operators.
Are they actually thriving inthe market?
Because that would be a veryunique case study compared to a
lot of the equity programsacross the country, including
here in California.
Lulu Tsui (27:19):
I think the operators that are not in the city are
probably having a lot moresuccess.
You know New York City it'svery dense.
There's just so much morecompetition, like with any like
local area.
If you put too many operatorsthere retail stores you're just
(27:39):
doing a lot of competition.
So, and I think the success ofan operator has to do with you
know, a couple other things,like you know how strong is your
team, how big is your ego?
Like how are you able to askfor help, you know?
So I mean I can't speak on allthe operators, I think we have
like 400 and over 450 retailstores open right now.
(28:04):
But you know, I think theproximity thing is crazy because
you know I hear West Coastpeople talk about like proximity
protection.
It's important to us because onthe West Coast you might have a
school or a church every coupleof miles.
In New York you can have aschool or a church every couple
of blocks.
So I think, before people haveall these opinions on the West
(28:25):
Coast about things, you alsohave to look at it from a native
or a regional point of view,because the same thing that
you're forming a judgment on onthe West Coast is just different
in New York.
Ben Larson (28:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Anyway, the last show I wasjust talking about rules with
alcohol and cannabis and thisone applies.
We were talking about labelslast week.
Proximity is another one.
It's like how many apartmentbuildings in New York have a
liquor store at the bottom andhow close are the schools and
churches to those?
Why is this any different?
Lulu Tsui (29:00):
And I think it's also different the way they
calculate proximity, because Ithink a lot of people do the
bird's eye or the crow's nestview or where they just go from
point to point, but you got totake into account the buildings
right, like something that mightjust be across the way of, like
you know, maybe like 50 feet toget access to it.
(29:22):
You have to like walk around,like if you're walking avenues
that's like almost a mile, youknow.
So it just sometimes things arejust not sensible and the way
they calculate things.
I cannot wait when sensibilitycomes back.
Ben Larson (29:36):
I mean I also just don't get it Like it's like
what's proximity do I mean?
Especially New York kids?
Lulu Tsui (29:42):
They probably walk miles a day, like I just don't
know what it's defending against, like seeing it from the church
, seeing it from the school,yeah, I think it's just
religious organizations andchildren not being in their
purview, as, I don't know, it'sjust.
I just feel like the governmentjust never trusts its citizens,
(30:03):
you know, and it's alwayscreating things to control
factor or whatever reason.
You know, I have my ownpersonal opinions.
I just turned 50 and I'm likeI've stepped out of the matrix
and I think things you know, seethings very clearly now.
It's just not sensible and youknow, I think we all come from a
place of, you know, in thecannabis space, of at least
(30:25):
trusting the consumers andtrusting that they can make
decisions, like the fact that wecan't have two vices together
at once, even though we grew upprobably drinking and smoking
weed together at a party andwe're all alive, forget that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (30:48):
Well, yeah, I think that's interesting and I
think consumer habits andproducts are also showing
themselves to be a little uniquein New York as well, when you
look at the form factors thatare moving with the most
momentum in the market.
It's not quite the same as someof the other early markets and
it seems like New York's arereally leaning into discrete
consumption and manufacturedproducts more than in other
(31:10):
markets at the beginning,specifically, just that straight
up flour doesn't have as largeof a share as it has in other
markets when they've launched,and I've thought that that's
been really interesting and saysa lot about the New York
consumer.
What do you think about the waythat New York consumption
patterns are unfolding, and doesit have to do with the product
(31:33):
quality?
Does it have to do with thepeople in the market?
Why are we seeing differentconsumption habits in New York
than in other markets?
Lulu Tsui (31:39):
I think there's a couple of variables.
So I think with um, you know,new York, we started growing
first a flower first, before thestores were open, as a way to
kind of combat a lot of the um,the patterns from other States
where you kind of open at thesame time and the stores are
like have no product and thenyou have to wait for the flower
to come in.
So New York started growingflour first and I think we had a
(32:02):
year ahead to be able to dothat, but then none of the
stores opened.
So we kind of had the inverseproblem of that.
So a lot of folks, you know,just process their flour.
So we had a lot of vapes andflour come in first and less
flour but more vapes.
It's like it was just an easierway to handle the supply that
was happening in New York.
And of course, with theextracted forms, you know, we
(32:25):
could do the edibles as well,the other manufactured goods.
That was just like a brief my,maybe my opinion of why that
happened.
But I think also, you know, newYork is, they say, one of the
largest consumer markets in theworld.
And even my friends who are notheads, right, they're in
finance, they're in art they're,you know, do design, fashion,
(32:47):
all of the other cultural things.
Everybody smokes weed orconsumes weed and I think also
you have a large population thatneeds to be discreet, right?
So, like it's, it's a verydifferent mindset.
New Yorkers can be veryprogressive about culture, but
there's still it's a veryconservative state with
(33:07):
institutions, right, finance andreal estate.
So I think there's a largerconsumption for the discrete
products that you're mentioning,like having an edible, like you
can still like be a coder andgo into like Bloomberg and not
smell like weed because youdon't want to draw that
attention to you, right versusyou go to california, you know,
(33:27):
I started my tech uh experiencein 2000 and everyone like you'd
see the developers go outsidefor lunch break and they'd call
it come back in a puff smoke.
So it's just a very different umperception of what a cannabis
user is still and that's whatwe're trying to normalize and
destigmatize is, you know,having no shame.
(33:48):
You know you're still gettingyour things done and you can.
You know you're you'readvertising it by yourself, as
I'm not ashamed of this andthat's kind of what I did at
Bloomberg was I spoke openlyabout it.
I'm like, hey, I'm going to thecannabis space and and having
that energy that you're speakingto others without like hiding,
I think does does portray it injust a different way, and that's
(34:10):
what we've always tried to dowith with our revelry.
Revelry events is creating aspace where there's an
amplification of people who areinterested, who feel good about
it and who want to share, andwhen you come to revelry, the
vibe is unmatched.
So I hope you guys can make itthis year, but if not, we'll see
you next year.
Ben Larson (34:29):
Absolutely Speaking about institutions and just kind
of the influence and everything.
One of the things that I'veheard about are the community
boards and I'm wondering if youcan kind of let us in a little
bit on how New York's communityboards are shaping, you know,
the licensing or the culture andjust the interplay of, you know
(34:51):
, policy activism and just kindof like the local decision
making.
Lulu Tsui (34:56):
So I learned a lot about community boards via Mark
Fitzgerald, who's a reallyamazing human.
So imagine you have a citycouncil New York does have a
city council but now imagineevery neighborhood has kind of
like a city council.
So these are the communityboards.
If you're trying to open up aliquor store, a restaurant, a
bar, a cannabis dispensary, youhave to go and present in front
(35:18):
of the community board.
To go and present in front ofthe community board and I don't
know the exact, don't quote meon this but I do know that the
community board can eitherrecommend or not recommend a
dispensary or liquor store fromopening or not.
Ben Larson (35:31):
So again, and who usually sits on these boards.
Are they elected citizens?
Lulu Tsui (35:36):
Elected citizens.
I believe.
Don't get me If you want tolearn more about it.
Mara Fitzgerald, she's anamazing human.
She's also been, you know,working with the community
boards to set some standards andSOPs around, like how to review
and what does this mean.
So she's been very instrumentalin just getting the community
(35:56):
boards educated and, of course,every community board is a
reflection of their neighborhood.
You know, some folks are for it, Some folks are against it.
A lot of times the people thatrun might not be the voice of
the people, just like sometimeswe're seeing I mean on brand
with the United States right now.
But their community boards arevery important, I think, can be
very active and that's one ofthe biggest differences.
(36:17):
I was talking to Anna Rae aboutEast Coast, west Coast.
It's like sometimes you knowwith West Coast friends in the
industry like they'll be like oh, this person didn't pay me or
this person was such a dick, butthey don't go up to the person
like you're a fucking dick, whydon't you pay me?
You know New Yorkers will dothat.
New Yorkers will be in yourface about it and then they'll
like, even like they'll hold aprotest in front of your store
(36:38):
if you're a bad actor and Ithink that's very refreshing for
me.
You know, growing up on the westcoast, those moments where,
like, you see a friend orsomething and then it's great,
and the next moment somethingdoes this, your energy's off,
but you don't know, but they'retelling everybody else except
for you, like that kind ofpassive aggressiveness which is
just part of culture on the westcoast versus the directness on
(37:02):
the East Coast, and I find thatI thrive very much in this world
of like.
Why are you being a bitch, like?
And you can be like well,you're being a bitch and then
you're like hug it outafterwards you know, so like.
I really uncomfortably well,uncomfortably you can sit in
uncomfortable things, becauseliving in New York is very
uncomfortable period.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:19):
Yeah Well, so talk about how that translates
into business approach and theway that you curate kind of the,
the relationships at revelrywho gets to be in the room, who
doesn't?
You talked about making sureit's operators, but but I've
heard you say that you've gotkind of a fuck yes, or a fuck no
mindset.
Lulu Tsui (37:40):
So talk more about that you've got kind of a fuck
yes, or a fuck no mindset.
So talk more about that.
Yes, yeah, I mean fuck no, fuckyes.
Mindset is essentially likejust be cool, you know, don't be
abusive, don't?
You know, treat my team likeshit.
We have a handful of people onthe fuck no list and it's
because you came at us reallyaggressive in a way that didn't
have to be aggressive Like.
(38:01):
I love my team.
My team is the most kind,hearted, excellent, like doers,
and all we ask is for people tolike come through and just be
cool Like you're.
You're coming.
You're like if you're going toa friend's house, you're going
to be cool with them.
You're not going to be likegive me this, give me that, I
want this and go fuck yourself,like that's not the way to start
(38:23):
with them.
You're not going to be likegive me this, give me that, I
want this and go fuck yourself,like that's not the way to start
with us.
And you know, normally we have aprotocol.
We'll do two rounds of tryingto resolve something.
You know like hey, there's,that's part of cannabis that
people don't understand.
It's like bad things, stupidthings, things that are our
(38:44):
control, happen all the time.
That's just normal.
It's about how you can solutiontogether.
It's about how you can come andlike put your egos aside and be
like okay, we fucked up, wefucked up.
Okay, now, how are we going tosolution that together?
And I think that's the biggeststrength of my team is we can
solution together pretty quicklyin a respectful, respectable
way.
But if we go two rounds andwe're like hey, these are some
of the options, like we justwant you to be nice to our team
(39:06):
and you come back saying, gofuck yourself, it's going to be
an automatic fuck no dude.
Like we're very nice until youinsult someone on my team Like
that's just, that's just how itis.
Like, and again, I respect.
However, you want to run yourhouse, your company, and if you
treat your people like shit,good luck to you.
But do not bring that into ourpool.
Like, our pool is kind of cleanright now.
(39:27):
Don't come pissing it.
Please don't do that.
It's not like we have a wholefuck no list.
The opportunity is here.
Everybody should come toRevelry.
We're not trying to gatekeep ortrying to exclude anyone at all
.
All we're asking is just kindof like hey, we're throwing a
cool party that everyone seemsto be vibing with.
(39:49):
Come through for sure, butdon't be weird and don't be rude
and don't treat my team likeshit.
That's where it comes from.
Ben Larson (39:59):
I love that.
One of the books that Irecommended the most over the
years is a book calledEssentialism, and one of the
main tenants of that book isthat if it's not a hell yes,
it's a hell no, and it's just away for us to focus our time and
energy on the positive thingsthat drive our business forward.
Lulu Tsui (40:17):
Yeah, I mean, like, if you're being rude, you know
we have a fuck.
No, because this woman came inyelling at our exhibitors,
yelling at the retailers,yelling at me, and I'm like, bro
, like what the fuck dude?
Like, clearly you're yelling atall of these exhibitors that
you could be working with,you're yelling at all the stores
that you could actually sellproduct to.
(40:38):
Now you're throwing a fit infront of your consumers.
Like what are you doing?
You know, like, what are youdoing?
Like it, and I was just like.
It was the first time I had tocall security to have someone
escort it.
You know like, in the sevenyears at that time, we've never
had any issues with you know,like, like, except for this one
situation.
Ben Larson (40:57):
Yeah, let's dive into the team a little bit, just
because I know that diversityis not just race right.
Like, obviously, east Coast,west Coast, asian descent, like,
how do you think of diversity,especially as it pertains to
building your team?
Lulu Tsui (41:16):
I think it's just really important to have
different points of view.
Again, solutioning right Likecoming together defines a
solution together.
So Jacoby Holland is myco-founder.
He's actually a mathematician,so you know, and he started at
one of the first grows politicalgrows in Colorado, and he and I
met we're both in tech and youknow he's half black and he's
(41:39):
half white.
If we want to talk about race,he's probably like what?
20 years younger than me.
You know different, verydifferent perspective.
Peter Mercado he is aneuroscientist, you know, and
he's Dominican and Puerto Rican,also just turned 30, I believe.
And then Jason Starr he is ahuman rights lawyer by trade.
(42:02):
He co -wrote Cuomo's CRTA butthen also helped with authoring
parts of the MRTA, which is ourlegislation for cannabis.
Then we have Saki Fenderson,who is just longtime advocate,
community builder, instructor,teacher, you know production,
(42:24):
all the things.
And then Geraldine May Cuevacomes from you know marketing
and trade shows in terms of likeattending as well as exhibiting
.
And then we just brought onDelilah Ware, who is our LIM
graduate.
So our school, our college, limCollege, actually has a
(42:47):
business in cannabis program.
So she just graduated, so she'sthe kind of baby of the group.
So I'm talking about buildingout a really well balanced team
that can answer questions like Idon't know everything.
You know, if someone asked meabout cannabinoids, I'd be like
I don't know everything, but youknow, peter can answer that
right.
If I had something aroundlegislation or regulate
(43:11):
regulatory framework, jasonwould be the person to answer.
So it's like it's building,like I always always say, like
imagine if we're the littlelions and we come together, as
Voltron, like everyone is anexpert to subject matter expert,
and together we can cometogether and just build
something greater or answerthings quickly or solutions
together in a way that makes nosense.
So that's what I mean bydiversity.
Ben Larson (43:33):
I just appreciate you using the Voltron reference
when you could have.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:42):
I'm the Voltron crew too, like Power
Rangers, got nothing on them.
So, lulu, we're getting closeto the end of the hour and I
guess I want to hear what you'remost excited about for Revelry,
that's coming up.
Lulu Tsui (43:54):
I mean, I just think it's been at this moment in time
.
It is a really beautiful momentin our cannabis history, right
Like market is coming along.
Now.
I don't know how things aregoing to go in the future, but
I'm just really grateful thatwe're part of this moment and
that, you know, we're seeing theoperators grow and there's a
lot of stuff that's stillhappening with the lawsuits and
(44:14):
all of that.
But I don't really want tofocus on that too much.
It's the fact that, um, we havepeople, we have New Yorkers who
are usually pretty judgmentalabout things um, actually
enjoying things and smiling andexcited and coming together and
celebrating in the way that onlyNew Yorkers do.
You know.
We're going to have our buyersclub on Friday, september 12th.
(44:38):
So we have probably over 200brands right now.
We'll probably bring in justover 400 retail buyers and
micro-business buyers to comethrough.
Day two is our consumer day.
Like I mentioned before, atthat moment we started consumer
day, there really wasn't avendor days available, so our
(44:59):
you know solution to that waswell, the brand's already set up
.
Let's bring in the consumers in.
And then we'll also have musicand stage programming and I'm
excited to announce that we'redoing a partnership with
Smorgasbord.
If you don't know them, they'reone of the largest food
festival groups, so they'recoming in to help with the
vendors.
So it's exciting to see some ofthe crossover that's starting
(45:22):
to happen amongst the differentindustries in New York that are
larger players.
So I'm excited about that.
And then we're going to belaunching Psychedelics, our
Psychedelic conference, nextyear as well.
Say more.
Ben Larson (45:34):
That seems like a big one.
Let's talk about that.
Lulu Tsui (45:40):
Well, it's kind of the same reason why we started
Revelry.
It's because you know the twoimportant groups that make an
industry happen at the beginningare, you know, the advocates
and activists, and then also theyou know, the scientists, the
lab coats and the business guysright, the suits and the lab
(46:01):
coats.
I think all of us probably fallsomewhere in between.
So we always wanted to makesure that everyone in between
felt comfortable andapproachable, because I remember
going to some of my firstevents, I just felt extremely
like intimidated and extremelylike an outsider.
So what we're trying to do iscreate environments where
different types of people cancome together and feel confident
(46:24):
that you know they're going tobe coming and learning, and
psychedelics is kind of the nextphase.
You know, I've been working withReggie from Oakland Haifei
probably since 2019 in terms ofthat space, and I think it's
time to create a space for thosethat are interested to really
(46:47):
come together and get different,different opinions.
Like there's so many differenttypes of opinions out there.
I'm really starting to see thatthere's folks that are saying
these are the rules for this andthis is how it needs to be.
And you know, you're with ourteam or you're not, and I'm like
dude, you totally missed thewhole point of psychedelics,
right?
It's like so excited to to be,you know, curating some
(47:11):
programming about the thingswe're doing, discovery right now
, so really learning about allthe things that you know newbies
or you know curious people, oreven you know folks that are in
the industry in different waysare wanting to learn.
So we'll do a programming andthat's something you'll always
have with on the rebel events isthat we will have such diverse
(47:32):
backgrounds and opinions andeveryone on stage and everyone
in the room are going to beopen-minded to all the different
opinions and hopefully peoplewill learn some things, get
inspired by some things and justcontinuing to help normalize
and destigmatize by, you know,the way they're projecting their
energy around these topics I'm,I'm here for that, I'll be
(47:54):
there.
Ben Larson (47:54):
well, okay, lulu, I really appreciate you spending
time with us.
I have one more question foryou.
Over the years, especiallybeing here on the West Coast, a
lot of us were looking to NewYork being the tastemaker, that
it is the opportunity withnightlife just the big cultural
difference.
And then we went through theroller coaster of the rough
(48:15):
rollout.
But now you're saying thatthings are good and heading in
the right way and it's startingto sound like that.
You know there's a lot morelicensed operators.
What's on the horizon for NewYork, like, does it really have
the opportunity to kind offulfill that vision that we all
had for it back in the day, oris the conservatism going to
continue to push back for it?
And then, is that going tocontinue into this psychedelics
(48:39):
conversation that revelry is nowentering?
Lulu Tsui (48:43):
That is such a good question because I think there's
a lot of external forces thatcontribute to a lot of decision
making.
Right, it's like all of asudden we have Mamdami who is,
you know, really popular withthe people.
He's a little bit.
They're calling him socialist,communist, all these things, and
I think it's making the moreconservative folks really
(49:05):
nervous, so they're going toflex a certain way, right?
So I don't know how to answerthat.
You know, in my perfect world,yes, you know, they're going to
give us as the citizens and thebenefit of the doubt that we can
actually try new things.
All of our industries like youtalked about the nightlight
(49:25):
hospitality wouldn't it be greatif we could work with the
health department and be like,hey, let's start adding some
beverages as a test.
Some beverages as a test.
It'd be great if we could havethat for folks that don't want
to drink.
You know alternatives at all,the restaurants and bars and
clubs.
Like that would be fantastic.
It'd be great for our schoolsto start working with.
(49:51):
Like one of my dreams is, youknow when the OCM or anybody
else wants to do like aninitiative for, you know, a
campaign, whether it's harmreduction or anything.
Wouldn't it be great if weworked with the colleges that we
have here Right, like why do wewant to spend $2 million with a
government PR group thatcreates messaging that doesn't
resonate with anyone, when wehave some of the brightest
brains and, you know, doingtheir master's program for
(50:13):
advertising, design, marketing?
Like, why don't we give thosekids the opportunity to make
that their their senior thesis,right?
And then you have messagingthat hits with the people.
You have kids that actuallyhave something on their
portfolio that makes them standout.
Like can we startcross-pollinating with all the
things that are here and likesave money?
(50:34):
And just, I don't know.
And that's how my brain works.
Ben Larson (50:38):
Reach love it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (50:39):
Totally Well, Lulu, it is time for our last
call, which is your lastopportunity on the mic to leave
our listeners with some advice,a call to action or a closing
thought.
So we turn it over to you.
What's your last call?
Lulu Tsui (50:55):
I hope everyone comes out and checks out New York.
I think it can be a little bitintimidating, but you know we'd
love to welcome folks just tokind of check out what's going
on in New York and meet the NewYorkers that are here.
Yeah, I'm just kind of sorryI'm two and a half weeks out
from our event, so in my headI'm processing all of the things
(51:17):
, but I'm very proud to be partof, you know, the New York
market right now and I thinkpeople will be very surprised
when they come through and justreally see what all of the
misconceptions about how NewYorkers are.
I'm excited for folks to belike, oh my God, like that was
cool.
These people are actuallypretty cool and very, very kind.
Ben Larson (51:36):
Oh, we're proud to have you on the show and
grateful that you're spendingthis time.
I know what it's like two and ahalf weeks out from an event
your hair is on fire, you'rerunning around, but you seem
very calm, and that is amazing.
Lulu Tsui (51:48):
It's all the psychedelics, ben, it's all the
psychedelics.
Ben Larson (51:52):
Amazing Lulu Sui from On the Revel.
Thank you so much for spendingthe last hour with us.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:00):
we'll be checking in soon we appreciate
you guys we'll see you in NewYork alright, folks, what'd you
think?
Ben Larson (52:08):
thank you for engaging, liking, subscribing,
doing all the things huge.
Thank you to our teams atVirtosa and Wolfmeyer and, of
course, our producer, ericRosetti.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please stop and leave a review.
Let us be seen.
We need the help.
Apple Podcasts, spotify,youtube wherever you watch us or
(52:31):
listen to us.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and, most
importantly, keep your spiritshigh Until next time.
That's the show.
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