September 11, 2025 • 57 mins
Cameron Clarke, CEO of Sunderstorm and the Kanha brand, shares his journey of building a global cannabis wellness brand and navigating the complexities of international markets.
• Started in California in 2015, believing that success there would translate to success anywhere
• Expanded nationally in 2019-2020 after becoming a top 10 brand in California
• Entered Thailand in 2022, becoming one of the first Western cannabis brands in Asia
• Pioneered nanotechnology in cannabis products ten years ago to create fast-acting effects
• Different markets show varying preferences between nano and classic gummies
• Australia operates as "a recreational market masquerading as a medical market"
• The UK cannabis patient count could reach 100,000 by year-end from current 50,000-60,000
• Thailand, Canada, and South Africa are emerging as key global suppliers of cannabis flower
• Cannabis tourism is growing rapidly, particularly in Thailand and the Netherlands
• Partnered with Beach Samui resort in Thailand to create an integrated cannabis wellness experience
• Preparing to open EU GMP manufacturing in North Macedonia to serve European markets
• Focuses all business decisions on how they contribute to building the Kanha brand
Enter our 10-year anniversary sweepstakes for a chance to win a free trip to Thailand and stay at the Beach Samui Resort, where you can consume cannabis and have a great time. Visit kanhabliss.com to enter before the drawing in early January 2026.
--
High Spirits is brought to you by Vertosa and Wolf Meyer.
Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.
Follow High Spirits on LinkedIn.
We'd love to hear your thoughts. Who would you like to see on the show? What topics would you like to have us cover?
Visit our website www.highspiritspod.com and listen to all of our past shows.
THANK YOU to our audience. Your engagement encourages us to keep bringing you these thought-provoking conversations.
Remember to always stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cameron Clarke (00:05):
Hey everyone, this is our 10 year anniversary.
We're super excited aboutcelebrating 10 years of Kanha,
and so for that, we actuallyhave a sweepstakes where you can
win a free trip to Thailand andstay at the Beach Samui Resort,
where you can consume cannabisand have a great time.
So I encourage you all to signup for our sweepstakes and see
(00:26):
if you can win.
We're going to be drawing, Ithink, early in January of 2026.
If you go to our website,kahnablisscom, you will find the
sweepstakes and you'll be ableto enter, and so I encourage you
to do it, because it's going tobe an amazing trip and for
anyone just listening, it isK-A-N-H-A.
Ben Larson (00:48):
Welcome to episode 104 of High Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Gradstein,
recording Tuesday, september 9th2025.
We've got an incredibleconversation for you today.
We're bringing on Cameron Clark, the CEO of Kanha Thunderstorm,
(01:10):
however you know it, aworldwide brand.
We're going to dive into allthe things international in this
brand, but before we get there,anna right, it's good to see
you.
I missed you last week.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:27):
Get there, anna Rae, it's good to see you.
I missed you last week.
Oh, you too.
We took a day off for Labor Day, so sorry to everyone that
missed us.
It felt really good to justhave a quiet Monday.
And yeah, you know, laboring,we all labor a lot and we need a
break, so I felt good about it.
Did you have a nice holiday?
Ben Larson (01:46):
I think so.
I think so.
It was quickly erased because Iwas on an early morning flight
to DC afterwards and that suckedall the rest out of me, but it
was a good trip.
We were there with theCoalition for Dope, average
Alternatives and in partnershipwith the US and Brown table,
which doesn't often happen.
But we'll say that we'refighting from the same side of
(02:08):
the table right now and ournewfound friends, the Wine and
Spirits Wholesalers of America.
So the beautiful thing aboutthis is that when we held events
we held panels and roundtablediscussions it was literally
standing room only, and I mustsay I've been doing this for a
number of years and doing a lotof cannabis and hemp lobbying
(02:29):
and we've never had thissituation where there was so
much interest literally peoplestanding in the halls of
Congress holding their ears upto the door, trying to hear what
was going on, and so I justlove the fact whether you're a
hemp or cannabis or bothoperator, those minds and when
you look at progress, it doesn'talways come in the form of huge
(02:52):
wins.
You know we're still waitingfor rescheduling on the cannabis
side, but to see the level ofinterest and the level of
engagement and conversationtells us that we're getting
closer and closer to thatelusive tipping point.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:07):
Well, so, when you're talking with elected
officials and their staffs inDC, there was a time when it
really felt like those were thefirst conversations that those
people were having aboutcannabis or cannabinoids, and
I'm curious of what it's likenow.
Are people tired of hearingabout it?
Does it feel like they stillneed the level of education that
(03:28):
they used to?
What are you encountering?
Ben Larson (03:31):
Well, look, I mean, you remember the days of giant
inflatable joints being carriedacross Capitol Mall, right Like
those days aren't that long ago,and what that image evokes is
probably, you know, a bunch ofhippies trying to prove their
relevance, and that still hasits place.
(03:52):
But where we are now, and wherea lot of these conversations are
hedging, is we have retailerstalking about how this is saving
their business and saving theiremployees, and we have growers
talking about how there'sactually a place for their
cannabinoids and their plants togo to and that they're
self-drew.
(04:12):
And we have consumers.
We have consumers in statesthat haven't had access to
cannabis and all of a sudden,they have access to an
alternative, and so we have justa lot more stakeholders
involved in the conversation,and, at the end of the day,
whether you believe they'redoing a good job of this or not,
the legislators must representtheir constituents at a certain
(04:34):
point, and so the voices aregetting louder, they're getting
more diverse, and I think that'swhat's been the amazing thing
about this partnership with thealcohol industry and I know
there's a lot of differentopinions on this, but when it
comes to lobbying, it puts a lotmore voices in the room and
creates a lot more relationshipsand conversations.
So I think, all in all, youknow, things are progressing
(04:57):
quickly and while there's avalid argument of, like you know
, beverage versus the rest ofthe hemp and cannabis world, it
truly is just a stepping stoneto really blowing up this
conversation.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:11):
Yeah, it's interesting to see who the
allies are at the table asthings continue to progress, for
sure.
Well, I think the United Statesof hemp is still a story to be
written.
Ben Larson (05:21):
here is still a story to be written here and
we'll see what happens.
It's fraught with turmoil.
I mean, if anyone's trackingwhat's happening in Texas.
The special sessions havesubsided and hemp remains in a
deadlock of status quo.
So the governor and thelieutenant governor couldn't
find a happy middle which allowsthe industry, for better or for
(05:46):
worse, to proliferate forhowever long they decide to do
something.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:51):
On that.
Let's talk about that for justone second.
I think that while there's alot of the hemp industry that is
very excited about what'shappening in Texas, my worry and
I think that the real losershere are the new operators that
are hoping to come into themedical program in Texas.
And you know what they did passin the legislative session was
(06:12):
an expansion of the medicalprogram and they're going to be
licensing up to 15 companies inthe state to be operating and
with no new regulations for thehemp products in the market, I
think that those companies thatwere thinking about
participating in the medicalside of the industry are going
(06:34):
to have a lot of challenge, kindof justifying the risk of
investing in that market, and Imean it's to be seen what
happens there, it's true.
Ben Larson (06:45):
But had they gone further with the cannabis
regulations and created moreaccess, maybe the lieutenant
governor and the governor wouldhave had a chance to come a
little bit closer on theirdecision making.
But it wouldn't.
It would have been a bet Frommy perspective, hemp or not.
It would have been a bad betstill, because that that
industry, the state, the stateis just too big and the way that
(07:08):
they were expanding it was justnot far enough, and I think
everyone would generally agreewith that statement.
But here's my fear is thatwithout regulations, you then
get volatility like what we'reexperiencing in Florida, where
new rules are just being made up, seemingly overnight, that
really impact businesses thatare selling into the state.
So labeling rules that suddenlycause an entire stickering job
(07:33):
to be done by everyone sellingin the state.
And we're experiencing similarthings in Minnesota right now,
even more extreme.
Minnesota hailed as the nexusof all of this being created all
of a sudden, implementing nearcannabis restrictive regulations
overnight in rulemaking.
So there was no legislativeprocess and everyone's be like
(07:54):
what do we do with this?
It's now in statute.
So, yeah, a lot going on, asalways, but that is the hemp and
cannabis world that we live in.
AnnaRae Grabstein (08:04):
Well, so let's move to some international
stories, because we don't oftencover the international market
and in this episode we're reallyexcited to have an expert in it
, and so it had us looking, too,to the international news a
little bit more, and I saw anarticle from the Economic Times
that was really interesting,reporting on India's booming
cannabis wellness market.
(08:24):
And just to remind everyone,india is now the world's most
populous nation and cannabis isboth culturally rooted in India
and increasingly a part of themodern wellness trends that are
happening there, specifically inthe non-intoxicating side
primarily, and it is reportedthat the market last year was a
(08:44):
$1.3 billion market in India,with mostly CBD oils, recovery
gels, gummies, things like that,and there is a worry from a lot
of folks in the medical spaceand in the government that
commercialization is outpacingregulation.
So it's interesting to see thiscountry that I haven't been
(09:07):
following as it really pertainsto cannabis coming out and being
a little worried about the paceof consumer excitement compared
to the pace of regulation.
Ben Larson (09:18):
Super exciting because we get so sucked into
the US business and we talkabout unlocking California.
30, 40 million people, etcetera, et cetera.
India's what like 1.4 billionpeople and like a 3000 year
history of cannabis consumption.
That's a massive opportunity,one that I can't even fathom and
(09:47):
didn't even know that there wasthat much going on.
So maybe our guest today willhave some insights there,
hopefully, Virtosa.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:51):
India.
Here we come, there you go, andyeah, and then the last story
that we'll cover before we bringon Cameron, which will really
relate to some of the thingswe're talking about, is that the
Thai parliament has elected anew prime minister, and and I'm
going to not say his namecorrectly, but I'll try Anutan
Charanvarakul.
Ben Larson (10:09):
Oh, I thought his name was Cannabis King.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:12):
Cannabis King he's often been called.
In 2022, he was the healthminister and he was the first
one to announce the country'snarcotics agency had approved
the descheduling of cannabisfrom the ministry's list of
controlled drugs, makingThailand the first Asian country
to do so.
Decriminalization has been asource of controversy in
Thailand and we'll talk aboutthat more, but it is an
(10:35):
interesting political moment tonow have this cannabis advocate
in the top leadership seat inthe country and there has been a
really huge, widespreadproliferation of cannabis seat
in the country and there hasbeen a really huge widespread
proliferation of cannabis allover the country.
I think that we'll be learningmore about that today, but but
excited to be seeing Thailandtop of the headlines in cannabis
(10:55):
.
Ben Larson (10:55):
I have so many questions because I know it was
building and there waslegalization and then there's a
retracting of that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:03):
Let's bring on Cameron then.
Cameron Clark is the co-founderand CEO of Sunderstorm, a
manufacturer behind theaward-winning cannabis brand
Kanha.
He's a serial entrepreneur witha really interesting background
.
He launched one of the firstelectronic courtrooms in the 90s
.
He built a video streamingcompany back in the early days
(11:24):
of the internet.
He's innovated in augmentedreality and even imported acai
before it was trendy.
Beyond business, cameron hasfounded nonprofits and biohacker
spaces and has exploredeverything from algae research
to synthetic biology.
And, of course, he's also aStanford grad who now spends his
energy taking cannabis global,so really excited to bring on
(11:48):
Cameron.
Welcome to the show today,cameron.
Cameron Clarke (11:51):
Thank you very much, anna Rae.
Happy to be here.
Been good to see you, you too,man.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:55):
Well, so you've been a builder in
multiple industries.
What made cannabis the nextfrontier for you?
Cameron Clarke (12:02):
You know it's really interesting.
That's a long story and I won'tgive you the entire story, but
basically it's been a life'sjourney.
I know I took a hard right-handturn in my mid-40s and traveled
around the world, did a lotmore plant medicines than I'd
done before and, you know, theuniverse basically just
delivered me to cannabis when itwas going legal and it's.
(12:25):
You know, plant medicines areone of my big passions and this
has been super exciting.
For us to be one of the driversin this industry through
legalization and to see it goglobal is super exciting because
I believe that everybody almosteveryone, can use these plant
medicines in a beneficial way.
So, connor, we see ourselves asa wellness brand and we are
(12:47):
thrilled to be driving wellnessinto people's lives,
particularly in this verychaotic world we live in today.
Ben Larson (12:55):
Chaotic is definitely the word, as our
intro highlighted, but you'vebeen living the chaos since 2015
, which is exactly when Ientered the space as well.
So, like a year before welegalized in California your
California based company, canyou talk about that journey for
you, as far as going from thoseearly days in the California
(13:16):
market, which we always anointedas the largest contiguous
cannabis market, et cetera, etcetera to now being, you know, a
global leader in building acannabis brand?
Like?
What were the major jumps foryou from going to addressing the
California opportunity tobecoming a global wellness brand
.
Cameron Clarke (13:34):
Yeah, I think that's really a great question
and I and I and I love thatquestion because I got to tell
you when I, you know, if youtold me five years, or let's
call it six or seven years agothat we were going to be a
global brand, I probably wouldhave scoffed at that.
And so, you know, this journeyhas been really incredible.
It's not that I didn't want tobe, it's just that, you know, I
thought that it was probably outof our reach.
(13:55):
And it just goes to show youthat, you know, if you drive
hard and just pursue yourpassions, you know, all kinds of
great things can happen and youcan make great progress.
So for us, my partner and I,keith, went to Stanford together
back in the day.
We've known each other for many, many years and we looked at
each other.
You know, when it was headingtowards, when Colorado went
(14:17):
legal, and we said, you know, wegot to get in this industry
we're very passionate aboutplant medicines and we looked
around you know the entirecountry and we said, where
should we go?
Right, because I was willing tomove anywhere to start the
business.
And we knew that Colorado wasbooming.
And you know, we looked at.
You know, canada was at thatpoint, was lining up and was
(14:38):
very close to going legal, andwe basically just said look, you
know what, if California isgoing to be the biggest market,
if we can win here, we can winanywhere.
It's kind of like New Yorkright, you can succeed in New
York, you can succeed anywhere.
So we started in California.
We learned a lot fromCalifornia and I think that's
one of the reasons why we'vebeen successful is that it's
been a great proving ground forus.
(15:00):
It's been super challenging, aseverybody on this podcast knows
and you know round.
For us it's been superchallenging, as everybody on
this podcast knows, but it'sbeen incredibly valuable and
we've been able to learn a lot.
So back in 2019, 2020, we didour national expansion.
We launched into three newstates and that was an exciting
moment after we had felt like wehad become a dominant brand in
California, we had become a top10 brand, so we decided to
(15:22):
expand nationally.
Other brands had expandedearlier with licensing deals,
but we wanted to make sure thatwe had a very stable base before
we conducted our expansion.
And then, in 2022, I had theopportunity, through one of our
partners, to get an introductioninto Thailand, right after
Thailand had been descheduled bya Newton, and so I have a
(15:43):
personal background ininternational trade, which I did
for many years, so I understandinternational business.
I've spent a lot of time inThailand, done a lot of business
in Thailand over the years, andso for me to go find this
opportunity in Thailand, whichis the first Asian country to
(16:03):
allow cannabis, was a veryexciting opportunity.
And so, you know, in two weeksI cut a deal, signed the MOU and
we were off and running.
And one of the personalexperiences that I really
appreciate was we had a booth atthe first Hemp Asia show, which
is where a Newton, right afterhe had descheduled it, actually
gave the opening talk.
(16:24):
And right after he gave theopening talk he gave a little
press conference for fiveminutes afterwards and then he
walked up the aisle, came intoour booth and took a picture
with me and my new partners.
So that's when I realized thatmy partners were very well
connected.
Ben Larson (16:38):
That's so cool.
Cameron Clarke (16:39):
He walked off and he was gone, so I realized
that we were well connected andthat's very important in a lot
of these countries around theworld.
Ben Larson (16:49):
I hear that is the hallmark of doing business in
Southeast Asia.
I'm going to jump in reallyquick just for a quick request
for some advice, because I waslistening to your interview with
our friends over at the Dime, Ipulled this quote.
It says when you do good work,opportunities come to your
doorstep, and that is somethingwe're experiencing right now.
(17:09):
How do you weigh, as anentrepreneur with an exciting
business jumping atopportunities and quickly
spinning something up inThailand, against avoiding kind
of like the shiny objectsyndrome?
You guys are doing a lot andwe'll get into all the things
you're doing in just a bit, butlike just that decision matrix,
because everything seemsexciting, it does.
Cameron Clarke (17:32):
And I will tell you that for us, if you ask my
team if we're doing too much,they're going to say yes.
So I'm one of those people thatI don't know if I necessarily
like the shiny objects.
I like interestingopportunities that I feel
confident that we can takeadvantage of and leverage.
(17:53):
So I call them pinholes ofopportunity.
So in my younger years I movedso fast and drove so hard and
felt like I could accomplishanything that I wasn't paying
attention to what was going onaround me and so I bypassed, I
think, a lot of opportunitiesthat I should have paid more
attention to.
And now, as I get older, alittle more mature, a little
(18:15):
more experienced and have abunch of failures under my belt
as well as some successes, I'verealized that slowing down is
better.
And looking for theseopportunities around that
they're not necessarily bright,shiny, know slowing down is
better.
And looking for theseopportunities around that
they're not necessarily bright,shiny objects, but they're dim,
shiny objects and I call thempinholes of opportunity.
And if you go, look throughthat pinhole and you and you and
you take a look at it, if youclimb through it, you will find
(18:37):
a whole new world of reallyinteresting and great stuff and
I think that's how I live mylife these days is not
necessarily looking for theshiniest thing, but paying
attention to all the littleopportunities that are around
that could grow into somethingmuch more important, and so for
me personally, I think that'sreally been a massive
(18:59):
philosophical change in my lifethat's gone on in the last 15
years.
AnnaRae Grabstein (19:04):
I love what you're saying because I often
think of cannabis entrepreneursas market makers, people that
are really creating spaces wherethere hasn't been one before,
and this pinhole of opportunityidea really feels like it hones
in on that concept.
And I want to dive into whatyou're seeing around the world.
We've touched on that.
(19:25):
You did this deal in Thailandbut I know that you are watching
for pinholes of opportunityaround the entire globe and I'd
love it if you could give usyour broad perspective on both
kind of like the big macroperspective of like what's
happening on all the differentcontinents, but even where there
is a pinhole, that you see oneopening it up and going a little
bit more macro perspective oflike what's happening on all the
different continents, but evenwhere, where there is a pinhole,
(19:46):
that you see one opening it upand going a little bit more deep
for us, yeah, I think theglobal markets are super
interesting and I'm really gladyou guys talked about it at the
beginning of the podcast,because that's really, to be
honest, the most exciting thingfor me.
Cameron Clarke (20:02):
So for me, you know, for us we have very large,
very challenging competitors inthe edible space nationwide.
Some of them have, you know, amuch longer time, for a longer
timeframe, even though we'vebeen at this for 10 years.
They've been at it for longerand so they've been able to make
a little bit more hay in the US.
So when I saw the globalopportunity kind of started to
(20:25):
come to fruition, I decided tochange our game a little bit.
Right, we're still driving hardin the US market, but we really
wanted to become a global brand.
So in 2022, I startedcanvassing the global market,
really paying attention to whatwas going on in the global
market.
So what I saw was a lot of talkabout how slow things were
going.
But when I went and visitedthese markets and I looked at
(20:46):
actually what's happening, itfelt a lot like what I had seen
in the US right in ourtransition in some of these
markets.
You know, even though it's verymedical right and the US is
truly, really recreational.
Those markets were stillevolving in a way that looked
similar to what my experiencehad been.
So as I paid attention to it, Irealized that the little, small
(21:10):
signs are starting to occurwhere these markets are
developing.
But ultimately, what's going todrive these markets is a
consumer base that is verypassionate about the plant and
that exists all over the globe,and I think that is what's
really the most important thingfor people to understand is
whether it's recreational ormedical, or focus on wellness,
(21:31):
as we do, or whatever you'redoing, cannabis is a plant that
has a massive consumer base andhas for millennia right, and so
we're just creating structurearound the globe for access to
this plant, and that's one ofthe most beautiful things about
it.
As I started to pay attentionand more recently, what I've
(21:53):
realized is that, as germany youknow, it started to get
exciting.
You see, you've seen kind ofyou're seeing kind of a shift in
how the global markets areoperating.
So south africa, for example,has been a big supplier of
cannabis flour for a while andthat's been driving a lot into
Europe.
But then, you know, colombiahas taken forever to kind of get
(22:15):
their act together and kind ofstep into the market, but that's
actually now starting tostabilize.
They're moving very smallquantities, but their market is
slowly evolving.
But, in general, what we see isAustralia is a country that is,
it's basically a rec marketmasquerading as a medical market
.
California 2015.
Exactly right.
(22:36):
So, because the consumers thereare very passionate about the
plant, and then you see a verystrong market starting to
develop in Europe and the UK.
So that's exciting, and thingsare starting to catch wind.
In the UK, for example, youonly have 50,000 or 60,000
patients today, but they believethat it could be 100,000
patients by the end of the year,and so these markets will
(22:59):
evolve quickly, and so don'tscoff at the fact there's only
50,000 patients in the UK.
If you look at the black marketin the UK, it's massive.
If you look at the black marketin Europe, it's massive, and so
what we need to do is the samething that we've been trying to
do in the States is basicallyevolve that black market and
bring them into the licensed orrecreational market or, as we
(23:22):
have here, the hemp market,which is a totally different
discussion.
But ultimately, what we need todo is create safe, stable,
consistent products thatconsumers can get access to, and
so that's what we're all doingin this licensed market and it's
super important.
And I will actually say onething is there's a lot of
complaints about California,about how we screwed up the
(23:43):
recreational market by creatinglegalization.
I will say that it took me ayear and a half to find truly
clean, pesticide-free cannabis.
Everybody was saying, oh, I'vegot clean weed, oh, I've got
pesticide-free.
We tested everything from thebeginning.
It was flooded with pesticidesand I was thrilled when we
finally got to the recreationalmarket and we could really truly
(24:07):
access a consistent supply ofsafe, pesticide-free cannabis
oil to put into our productsBack to the global markets.
So they've started to evolve andyou see that South Africa is
still one of the importantsuppliers, but you've got
Thailand and Canada now over thelast couple of years that have
(24:28):
really started to evolve indriving a lot of the cannabis
flower sales globally.
Thailand's still getting on itsfeet in terms of stable product
, the test right and all that.
Canada has been shipping toEurope for quite some time.
So that's good.
So we're seeing these globalmarkets and international trade
really starting to develop and Ithink that's very exciting news
(24:50):
for everyone.
So that trust is starting tooccur in the line that the
channels of trade are evolving.
So for us as a cannabis brand,that's fantastic, because now I
can manufacture or cultivate inone or two countries and then I
can access the globe.
So it's really about now.
It's about finding where arethe right places to set up our
(25:12):
cultivation and manufacturingand how do we address the
regulatory frameworks so that wecan actually provide products
that are compliant with thedestination markets.
So destinations Europe andAustralia really are the big
ones.
As we see it today we areentering in Japan with CBD and
(25:33):
CBG CBM products.
So that's interesting.
Thailand has been a prettystrong market for a while.
It's evolving right now, butthere's a lot happening and I
think that's the exciting thing.
Ben Larson (25:44):
I'm going to have to go rewrite my operating plan
for next year.
AnnaRae Grabstein (25:48):
Well, you, you brought up this, this whole
idea about this, on thisexisting consumer base all over
the world and, and I think weknow that people have been
consuming cannabis forever.
What I, what I don't have agood grasp on is what a
transition from a largelyillicit market will be in some
of these countries to a moreregulated market, and it's been
(26:11):
really painful.
In the US.
We've seen most of the marketremain in the unregulated
channels and it's this constantpush and pull and enforcement.
There's varied opinions aboutthe best way to do that and what
criminalization is appropriateor not appropriate.
When you legalize a plant, eventhough people are doing outside
(26:35):
of the legal framework, how doyou see that unfolding in the
countries that you think aregoing to be the biggest consumer
opportunities?
You mentioned Australia andGermany.
How do you see that playing out?
Cameron Clarke (26:48):
Yeah, I think that's a really super important
question and I see it as chaos,because that's what we've kind
of endured in the US's.
Really it's challenging, right,because if you just completely
de-schedule this plant andallowed full access across the
(27:08):
board with with very minimalregulation, what we would find
is a massive market.
We would find a growing market.
We would find a lot of happyconsumers.
You would find, you know,pricing probably moderate
pricing stability but I thinkyou would also find a lot of
product that's unsafe.
(27:29):
And if you look at the hempmarket in the US, this is kind
of, you know, it's a litmus test.
We can see what that looks like.
The hemp market has been prettymuch unregulated for two or
three years now and you see alot of products that consumers
should not be consuming, and sowe need to have a certain amount
(27:52):
of regulation so that we canhave safe, consistent products
that are medicine for millionsof people.
The amount of regulation isbasically a governor on the
adoption and the let's just callit the adoption cycle of this
amazing plant, and I think noone has figured out the right
(28:16):
recipe.
It's super complicated.
I mean, if you look in Germany,where they're filling vapes one
at a time at the pharmacy,which is what they've been doing
.
It's kind of silly.
Then you look at Thailand,where they just blew the doors
wide open and most of theproducts in the market were
untested, although our products.
There we made sure thateverything was tested and that's
(28:37):
what we touted from the verybeginning.
It's pretty chaotic.
You know, none of us werearound when alcohol was
legalized again in the 30s andso we don't really know whether
it took 10 or 20 years for it toreally be.
You know, shift away from thesebackwoods distilleries to, you
(28:59):
know, to a fully regulated, safemarket.
But I think for us, I think wejust have to realize that it's
going to be a bit chaotic and wejust have to do the best we can
.
And for anybody that's actuallyin the industry and operating
in the industry, it's a buckingbronco.
You just got to hang on fordear life and you got to make
sure that you don't make baddecisions and that you navigate
(29:19):
through it very carefully.
We do it at Sundarström in away where we just we take as
much information and data as wecan possibly absorb and we throw
it against the wall and then weargue for hours.
So you know, it gets a littleintense at times, but I'm a
leader that basically values myopinions, the opinions of my
(29:44):
team and my colleagues, and wedebate things endlessly, and I
think that's one of the reasonsthat we've avoided some of the
pitfalls that other companieshave not avoided.
We certainly have made mistakes.
I wish I hadn't made thosemistakes, but this industry is
really difficult and to be ableto navigate through this is
(30:05):
incredibly challenging.
I just don't see.
I don't see that it's going tobe any different, and I'll tell
you a funny story.
When we entered Thailand back in2022, you know, we, we, we.
We got up and running, we wereselling products, and every time
I talked to someone aboutThailand, I said, oh my God, but
I keep hearing it's going to berescheduled.
It's very chaotic.
(30:25):
Man, how do you deal with that?
I said, well, I started inCalifornia.
I mean, california wasincredibly chaotic back in the
day and I was running from thecops every day, so hiding our
facility back in 2015.
So it's just the nature of thisindustry and one of the things
(30:47):
that those of us in the industryhave to do is we have to work
better together to drive it in adirection that makes sense, and
I think there's a lot of roomfor improvement there.
And how do you do that on aglobal basis when the European
markets want to be highlyregulated, and Australia as well
?
It's challenging, but I thinkwe just need to keep
(31:09):
destigmatizing the plant andletting people recognize that
there are different valuepropositions and uses of this
plant, and there are some veryhighly medical uses and there
are some recreational uses, andthen there's kind of a blend in
the middle and that's what makesthis plant so complex.
So I don't know, that's notreally a good answer to your
(31:31):
question, but I think it's justsomething that we need to drive
forward and, as companies andCEOs, just have to do the best
you can to make good decisions.
Ben Larson (31:44):
I love how you highlight the importance of
optionality and creating thesedifferent levers so that you can
weather the volatility, and soit's like it's almost
counterintuitive, but Iunderstand from running our
business.
It's like the more exposure youhave, the more exposed you are
to volatility, but it gives youat least different accelerator
(32:05):
pedals to push on to at leastmaintain the financials of the
company.
You do have a significant partof your company that is built
around nanotech and nanodelivery, but it's a highly diversified
portfolio, everywhere from vapesto normal gummies to ones
(32:25):
infused with nanotech.
And I'm curious what is thedata telling you about different
markets, legacy markets likeCalifornia, new markets?
I don't know if you callThailand a new market because
it's been there for a while, buthow do these different product
offerings show up for you as acompany in the various markets
that you're serving aroundaround the world or around the U
(32:47):
S?
Cameron Clarke (32:48):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, this year is our 10year anniversary, so I'm
thrilled to be celebrating our10 year anniversary.
It's huge, amazing to get to 10years, so that's great.
But in fact, 10 years ago, wewere the first company in the
industry to launch ananotechnology, which was a
liposomal technology in ourtinctures.
(33:09):
And so, because I have ascience background, I
immediately understood the valueproposition of nanotechnology
and fast acting.
And I know that with plantmedicines a lot of people over
consume or overdose because theydon't feel the effect right
away, and so I wanted tocompress that timeframe at which
people could actually feel theeffect, and so that's been a big
driver for us over the years.
(33:31):
While we started with thenanotechnology and the tinctures
, we then followed that with thegummies later, and you know
it's interesting, in mostmarkets the nano gummies are the
most popular in.
In most markets, the nano, thenano, um gummies are the most
popular, and but in some markets, you know, our classic gummies
are the are the most popular.
So it's really interesting tosee that there is some
(33:53):
variability in the markets.
I think part of it has to dowith, you know, legacy consumers
versus new consumers Um, newconsumers, I think are you know?
When we look at the data, um,uh, we find that new consumers,
new consumers, I think.
When we look at the data, wefind that new consumers seem to
feel more comfortable withnanotechnology because they feel
the effect faster.
Ben Larson (34:09):
Is there a price differential between the two
products?
AnnaRae Grabstein (34:12):
There is there is there, is I'm wondering
why anybody would not choose ananotechnology.
You know, I'll tell you why.
Cameron Clarke (34:21):
Because the nanotechnology is, know, I'll
tell you why.
Because because, um, uh, forthe nanotechnology tends to is
more bioavailable, but it getsin and gets out of the system
faster.
So, you know, for a lot ofpeople they can just consume,
you know, another, another gummyor whatever.
But I think that you know, whenyou look at a sleep product,
for example, you want to stayasleep and so we have formulated
(34:42):
so.
Originally, our Tranquilityproduct did not have the
nanotechnology in it because wewanted to stay in the bodies of
consumers throughout the night.
However, our new sleep formulathat we've created, we've
modified that a bit so thatwe've used the nanotechnology on
certain cannabinoids and notothers to basically create an
effect that's both fast actingand longer lasting throughout
(35:05):
the night.
So that took a couple years forus to develop and I know, for
example, ben, with Vertosa, it'sa great job that you've done
there with getting that into allthese beverages.
I think it's beverages thecloser that we can get on the
beverage effect to be more likealcohol, so you feel it quickly,
it's a much better experiencefor the consumers and I think
(35:27):
that's what we really.
That's one of the things that'sreally driven this beverage
market is that consumers.
With these nanotechnologies andfast-acting technologies,
they've been able to actuallyfeel the effect.
So I think this technology issuper important yeah absolutely.
AnnaRae Grabstein (35:43):
I wonder how you think about other form
factors and and what you'velearned from nanotechnology in
terms of where the market mightbe going and innovation.
I know you're in vape and vapeis like one of those self
titrating like you feel it rightaway Is.
Is there innovation coming inthat form factor or in others
that is similar?
(36:04):
Is something going to be asdisruptive as nanotech has been
to gummies and to other edibles?
Cameron Clarke (36:11):
I don't necessarily think so, but it's
possible.
I will tell you that the dosingmechanisms on vapes is starting
to be really important for themedical markets.
For example, in Europe there isa movement towards being able
to prepackage product andinstead of having the pharmacy
fill it.
So that's actually finallystarting to happen, and a lot of
(36:32):
that has to do with the abilityto dose a certain quantity in
the vape products.
But that's not new technology,right?
That's been in California here.
It's been in the US for what?
Eight years or something atleast that I know of.
So I think Dosis was the firstone that came out with that.
So it's a good question.
(36:54):
I think in California, forexample, if you look at the
history of products, you hadhundreds of different types of
cannabis products seven or eightyears ago.
You know you had it in potatochips and you had it in all
kinds of.
You know you had it in hotsauces and all kinds of stuff.
You don't see so much.
You don't see much of thattoday.
Consumers have really voted withtheir pocketbooks on what form
(37:17):
factors they really like.
I do think there are other formfactors that consumers will
begin to adopt a little bitoutside, but in terms of these
cool new technologies.
I think it's really related tothe cannabinoids themselves and
the terpenes and how we blendall these products together with
(37:37):
, by the way, other coactiveingredients that create a
specific effect.
So the one thing that really Ithink we're all driving towards,
or a lot of us are drivingtowards, is functionality in
these products.
What is the purpose?
Why am I taking cannabis today?
Am I taking it to relax?
Am I taking it for pain?
Am I taking it for sleep,anxiety?
(37:58):
What have you?
So I think that's where we're,that's where we're really
driving to towards in terms ofinnovation ben, he's speaking
your language oh, I know, I'mloving it.
Ben Larson (38:08):
I'm loving it.
Before you talked about that, Iwas going to say the the main
place we can innovate uh, whichI now agree with you, but beyond
that was actually less on thedelivery mechanism and more on
access, and that's what we'reexperiencing right now in the US
is innovative access to theplant and how that's creating
(38:29):
huge consumer base.
And, cameron, I know you'vebeen working in the tourism or
the hospitality channels and Iwould love to just hear what
excites you about this, likekind of how you're thinking
about it as far as kind ofgrowing the opportunity for not
only Kanha but the plant ingeneral.
Cameron Clarke (38:50):
Yeah, I think this is a really, really
important question.
So, because we believe thatKanha is a wellness brand and
we're doing this because webelieve wholeheartedly in the
wellness value proposition ofthe plant, which is kind of a
blend of recreational andmedical and kind of envelops all
types of consumers we dobelieve that access is crucially
(39:12):
important.
And so, as the world gets morechaotic and post-COVID it's been
quite chaotic and I don't seeit getting any less chaotic, to
be honest, with politics and allthe stress that we have in our
lives what I'm seeing out in thegeneral population is that
people are much, much moreinterested every single day with
, you know, finding vacationsand places to go where they can
(39:37):
relax and they can de-stress andthey can, they can, you know,
pull off the layers of of ofcomplexity that exists in all of
our lives, and so thesewellness resorts and wellness
retreats are booming, and sowhat we've been trying to push
towards is try to find, you know, resorts where we can, you know
(39:57):
, places to go where people canactually consume cannabis in a
in a safe way, maybe for thefirst time, maybe not, but
they're.
But they, they, they can, theycan feel safe, they can be
relaxed and they can.
They can learn how to to doseit properly for whatever the
whatever the reason is that theywant they want to consume it.
And so a year ago we came acrossa hotel called the Beach Samui,
(40:22):
which is in Thailand, and so wedeveloped a partnership with
them because they had theconcept from the very beginning
that they wanted to create awellness resort that was really
plant medicine based, that hadjust completely descheduled the
(40:43):
plant and didn't have all theserigorous regulations around it.
The beach sommelier was able tocreate an environment with a
dispensary right inside thelobby of the hotel.
We could put our you know, foradults who wanted to consume it
for sleep, we could put oursleep gummies on the bedside
right next to where they're totake before they go to bed.
You can sit in a bathtub, outon the balcony looking over the
(41:04):
beautiful Thailand ocean, andsmoke a joint and chill out.
If you want, you can get amassage and eat a gummy before
you have your massage.
So they really try to integratecannabis wellness into the
day-to-day experience of theirvisitors at the resort, and I
(41:25):
think that's been a beautifulthing.
I believe that these kinds ofresorts are going to be more and
more popular as we go throughtime, and this is what consumers
are seeking, and I think it'snot just cannabis.
You're going to see clinicalenvironments in these resorts
(41:47):
where they have full access todoctors for both cannabis as
well as, potentially, psilocybinand other psychedelic
treatments.
I mean, people want to gethealed right, they want to feel
better, they want to de-stressfrom all the anxiety in their
lives, and these resorts are agreat place to be able to offer
this, as long as they do it in awellness way, in a safe way,
(42:12):
which means that for some of thestuff, they'll need access to
doctors, and so we actually,through my partnership with our
JV partner in they have createda clinic in Thailand with
doctors on staff that can doremote consultations, because my
(42:35):
partners were one of the firstfive medical license holders in
2018 in Thailand.
So having these doctors onstaff and being able to consult
with the resort or other resortsis really a great thing, and I
think that blend is veryimportant, and we're going to
see more and more of that aroundthe world as the regulations
begin to relax a little bit, asthe stigma goes away, so I think
(42:58):
all of us in the industryshould be driving towards this,
because it really helps theconsumers gain access and also
gain comfort with this amazingplan.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:09):
I'm so here for this, and we've been talking
about having a high spiritsretreat for a long time.
Maybe we need to take ourdestination to Thailand.
Cameron Clarke (43:18):
Do it at the Beach Tamui Hotel, for sure.
Our ambitions just got muchhigher.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:23):
Oh my gosh sounds great.
And tourism it really has beenan economic driver as states
around the US have turned on.
When Colorado was an earlyentrant into the adult use
market, colorado really raisedtheir hand and talked about how
Las Vegas has been seeing like adecrease in tourism overall and
(43:54):
the cannabis industry there hastalked about how that has
affected their businesssignificantly.
So I think that it's a doubleedged sword.
Is that when we build aroundtourism, it also can really hurt
when the tourism shifts.
But I'm so excited for it.
I am all about the wellnessretreat space myself.
(44:17):
I am the consumer for that, soI can't wait to get to more
confidently consume cannabiswhen I travel, for sure.
Cameron Clarke (44:26):
I will tell you something, and there's a lot of
people that will debate me onthis, but I've been spending a
lot of time in Thailand the lastthree years and there are a lot
of tourists flooding toThailand to go consume cannabis,
perhaps for the first time orperhaps just because they're big
cannabis consumers and theycan't get access to it at home.
(44:46):
And one of the things that Isaw that really blew my mind is
countries.
You know a lot of Islamiccountries, for example, you know
, coming to Thailand to go smoke, go smoke cannabis because they
don't drink, and people fromall over the world, all walks of
life, just coming there.
And there's no doubt in my mindthat that cannabis in Thailand
(45:07):
has helped the tourism industryand I think it has to be
controlled to some extent.
Right, you can't have iteverywhere, right, for the
consumers that don't want tosmell the smell or whatever, but
provide access where you can.
AnnaRae Grabstein (45:21):
Yeah, and I think not just for people trying
it for the first time.
But as cannabis becomes morenormal around the world, people
start using cannabis regularlyin their lives and they don't
want to go on vacation in placeswhere, all of a sudden, they're
going to accidentally be acriminal because they had a vape
in their bag and that's areally scary thing.
(45:42):
Nobody wants that.
Cameron Clarke (45:46):
And, interestingly enough, I didn't
mention earlier but there aretwo recreational trials going on
in Europe right now.
One is in Switzerland and theother one is in the Netherlands,
and they're super interesting.
We know that we can for yearsbeen able to buy cannabis in the
Netherlands, but now they'veactually created this more
formal structure for arecreational test.
(46:06):
What's interesting about thedifference in those two markets
and they're likely to be thefirst two truly recreational
markets in Europe Switzerlandhas limited access by saying
only a very small number ofpatients can get access to this
recreational test and it'ssupposed to go on for a few
years but will likely probablygrow recreational sooner.
(46:29):
The Netherlands is limited notby the number of patients but by
the number of dispensaries, soI think it's 90, 98, 95, I don't
know something like that wherethey're running this
recreational test.
But they have an unlimitednumber of consumers that they
can actually serve, which meansthat people can actually fly to
(46:52):
the Netherlands, as they couldin the past, but now truly, you
know, in a very open way andconsume cannabis, buy cannabis
and consume cannabis.
So so the tourism industry wewill see, I believe, will
continue to grow in theNetherlands because of this
really full access to the plant.
So this is going to get drivenglobally.
(47:13):
Cannabis tourism is going to bea big deal.
Ben Larson (47:16):
It's amazing I'm just reflecting on the brand For
anyone that's not watching thevideo over Cameron's shoulder is
this beautiful mandala withlike a tiger on it.
I know that's largely been yourbranding since you've started,
but now you're leading thecharge in Southeast Asia.
What a beautiful alignment ofbrand and market.
(47:36):
Was this foreseen or was this?
How did you think aboutbuilding the kind of brand?
What made you go with this?
And I'll just acknowledge that,as an Asian person, I don't see
a lot of Asian branding in thespace, so I've always
appreciated that about the brand.
Cameron Clarke (47:53):
Great.
Thank you so much.
You know, when we created thebrand, both Keith and I have
traveled the world extensively.
We're both very, verypassionate travelers of Asia and
really love Asian culture in somany ways.
I will include Indian culturein there as well.
(48:15):
I've spent a lot of timetraveling India and you know
ashrams and studying over there.
So we, you know, we wanted tocreate a brand that people could
trust, and, and so for us wehad to, you know, shift away
from, you know, a lot of theblack and green and a lot of the
darkness that was around theplant because it was still, you
(48:38):
know, not not fully legal in theus, at least in california.
When we started, we reallyappreciated, you know, some of
the asian philosophies.
So Kanha is actually an Indianword in some dialects for food,
but it's also a different namefor Krishna, and Krishna is the
God of wisdom, compassion andlove.
(48:59):
So it's really why I wanted toget into this industry.
Right, it was to be able toprovide people a way to live
better lives, and that's reallywhat we do here every single day
.
So the tiger is a symbol ofstrength and the tiger actually
there's a kind of tiger preservein India.
So it was a perfect.
It was a perfect blend of of asymbol that really meant
(49:21):
something to us, because we knewwe had to be strong to drive,
you know, to endure all thechallenges in this industry, and
to be strong to give people areason to actually follow the
plant and and get access to it.
So, so, when I had theopportunity to open up a talent,
it was a natural and they lovedour they, they, they loved our
(49:41):
logo, they loved our tiger.
We couldn't, you know, peoplewere fighting over the t-shirts
in our, in our trade show booths, which was exciting.
So it's really come full circlein a big way, as, as Ben, I
think you alluded to, and it'sexciting for us because we
really do believe in the powerof the plant and we want to, we
want to lead people to better,you know, live better lives and
(50:03):
and and healthier lives, andthat's what this plant does, and
so that's really on a very muchon brand for us, and to be able
to offer this globally is superexciting.
AnnaRae Grabstein (50:12):
I want to go back to something that you said
earlier.
You talked about how somepeople on your team think that
you're doing too much, and we'vetouched on this global
footprint and the US footprint alot of, when there's a lot of
things we didn't even get totouch on in this conversation.
But I'm curious as we looktowards the end of 2025, how do
(50:34):
you make plans for your teamtogether, collaboratively, to
get together your plan for 2026?
And what is your processtackling that?
Cameron Clarke (50:46):
Yeah, let me mention a couple of things first
your process, tackling,tackling that, yeah, yeah, let
me mention a couple things first.
So, number one we'll be signingan mou today to open up
manufacturing in in macedonia,north macedonia, which is super
exciting, which will give usaccess to eu gmp, fully eu gmp,
uh product development which wecan, which will be able to sell
in europe and in australia.
So, so that's an exciting thing.
(51:07):
And obviously we do believe inthe globalization of the Kanha
brand.
And while, on one hand, my teamsays, oh my God, we're doing
something, we're doing more,they get excited about it.
And it's kind of funny,actually, because we started to
have some calls with theMacedonian operator and to talk
(51:29):
through all the productdevelopment and EUGMP and
setting up the manufacturingspace and all of that.
One of the comments that wassaid to me was, while the call
was actually focused on a fewthings that didn't necessarily
involve the entire team, thewhole team wanted to be on the
call and it was six o'clock inthe morning, so they're super
excited to build a global brand.
(51:49):
I think, think, that's.
That's one of the that's one ofthe things that puts a giant
smile on my face, and so, whileit's hard work and, you know,
requires people to work at oddhours, at times they just feel
like we're we're.
We're.
We're doing what we set out todo, which is to change the world
, and I think that's awesome.
So, to answer your question,how do we plan for 2026?
(52:09):
Ultimately, we create astrategy, right, and we have
strategy sessions and we defineall the different things that we
want to accomplish, which is apretty complicated list of
things, and we prioritize themand then we build a strategic
plan around those priorities andwe build timelines and then we
(52:30):
build a full bottom-up budget,that is, by every general ledger
account for the full coststructure and for our full plan
for our company, and then wedrive towards that budget.
We do adjust it on a quarterlybasis, but that's what we put
together.
So, while I'm typically the onethat's driving most of the new
(52:54):
opportunities, whether it's newstates, new products let's call
it new product categories,because new products we have our
product team that does that Newproduct categories with the CRO
and with the sales team and Isaid new states and then also
new countries and new globalopportunities, which is really
where I'm focusing a reasonablechunk of my time.
We just throw this into the mixand then we argue about it for
(53:18):
days and figure out where can weget the biggest bang for the
buck.
And sometimes we're motivatedby financial decisions and
sometimes we're motivated bybrand development decisions.
But ultimately, I want to makea very important point here, the
most important, the one thingthat we drive towards everything
we do in this company whetherit's sweeping the floor or
(53:40):
whether it's, you know, openingup in a new market it's all
about building the kind of brandright, and so everything rolls
up into our brand story and wemake sure that everything we do
is aligned fully aligned withbuilding that brand.
So even when we take on, youknow, new brands and others in
our distribution in California,for example, it still helps the
(54:03):
kind of brand that we think ofit that way.
So I think that's reallyimportant for others in this
industry to think about, like,what is your ultimate priority?
And make sure that everythingthat you do rolls up to that
priority.
And if it doesn't, then youknow, maybe take it off the
table.
I will give you a perfectexample.
So we've been in the hemp marketfor a while, but not in states
(54:25):
where we're licensed, because wedon't want to compete with our
customers.
We got into the market becausewe fully understood where the
hemp market was going and it waspretty easy for us to really
see the value proposition there.
But we had an opportunity toget into that market earlier,
when it was all Delta 8.
We decided not to go in asDelta 8, even though we'd been
(54:47):
looking at that market for ayear because we didn't feel like
the Delta 8 was really on brandfor us, and so we made the
decision to not to do that.
I wish that I had seen a littleearlier the true value
proposition at D9 in those daysDidn't look deep enough, right.
But you know, you have, youknow, and I still would live
(55:09):
with that decision.
To be honest, um, on the DAcause, I don't think it really
was not bad for us and so youjust have to.
You have, that's how you haveto look at it.
And then you got to build alist, prioritize and then build
your bottom up budget and makesure that the financial aspect
fully makes sense.
AnnaRae Grabstein (55:27):
Cameron, this has been a masterclass.
I think there's so much more wecould talk to you about.
I'm loving part two.
Ben Larson (55:34):
You got to come back .
AnnaRae Grabstein (55:35):
I have so many questions for you, so many,
or we'll just have a privatemeeting later, but it is time
for our last call.
So, cameron, what is your finalmessage for our listeners?
Advice, call to action.
Closing thought that you'd liketo leave them with.
Cameron Clarke (55:49):
You know, I would say a couple of things.
Number one I know it's hard outthere, it's super challenging.
Stay true to your passion forthe plant, because we are
changing the world and don'tforget that.
But make sure that when you'redriving your business, you're
driving towards that.
And I would also say you knowwhat no-transcript, you know
(56:31):
let's and let's work bettertogether.
Stay true to the plant.
Ben Larson (56:35):
Yeah.
Cameron Clarke (56:36):
By the way, if people want access, if people
want to know where to find us,you can find us on Instagram and
our website.
Kanha Bliss is our, is ourlicensed, and Kanha is our hemp
business for states where folkswant access where we're not
licensed Awesome.
Ben Larson (56:53):
Thank you, amazing Cameron.
Thank you so much, truly.
A masterclass, it was all goldand for anyone just listening,
it is K-A-N-H-A.
That's correct, cameron Clark,the CEO of Kanha.
Thank you so much.
Really, we need to catch upsoon because I have so many more
questions.
Cameron Clarke (57:13):
There's a lot we could talk about, so I'm happy
to do round two with you guys.
AnnaRae Grabstein (57:17):
Awesome, thank you.
Ben Larson (57:19):
All right, everybody .
What do you think?
Thank you for watching, thankyou for listening, for
commenting, doing all the things.
Thank you to our teams atVertosa and Wolfmeyer and, of
course, our producer, eric Brzee.
If you enjoyed this episode,please drop a review on Apple
Podcasts, on Spotify or whereveryou listen.
(57:39):
Yeah, like, subscribe, do allthe things.
Just share high spirits, keepeveryone's spirits high and it
will make all the spirits higher.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high Until next time.
That's the show.
Hey everyone, this is our 10 year anniversary.
We're super excited aboutcelebrating 10 years of Kanha,
and so for that, we actuallyhave a sweepstakes where you can
win a free trip to Thailand andstay at the Beach Samui Resort,
where you can consume cannabisand have a great time.
So I encourage you all to signup for our sweepstakes and see
(00:26):
if you can win.
We're going to be drawing, Ithink, early in January of 2026.
If you go to our website,kahnablisscom, you will find the
sweepstakes and you'll be ableto enter, and so I encourage you
to do it, because it's going tobe an amazing trip and for
anyone just listening, it isK-A-N-H-A.
Ben Larson (00:48):
Welcome to episode 104 of High Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson and with me, asalways, is Anna Rae Gradstein,
recording Tuesday, september 9th2025.
We've got an incredibleconversation for you today.
We're bringing on Cameron Clark, the CEO of Kanha Thunderstorm,
(01:10):
however you know it, aworldwide brand.
We're going to dive into allthe things international in this
brand, but before we get there,anna right, it's good to see
you.
I missed you last week.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:27):
Get there, anna Rae, it's good to see you.
I missed you last week.
Oh, you too.
We took a day off for Labor Day, so sorry to everyone that
missed us.
It felt really good to justhave a quiet Monday.
And yeah, you know, laboring,we all labor a lot and we need a
break, so I felt good about it.
Did you have a nice holiday?
Ben Larson (01:46):
I think so.
I think so.
It was quickly erased because Iwas on an early morning flight
to DC afterwards and that suckedall the rest out of me, but it
was a good trip.
We were there with theCoalition for Dope, average
Alternatives and in partnershipwith the US and Brown table,
which doesn't often happen.
But we'll say that we'refighting from the same side of
(02:08):
the table right now and ournewfound friends, the Wine and
Spirits Wholesalers of America.
So the beautiful thing aboutthis is that when we held events
we held panels and roundtablediscussions it was literally
standing room only, and I mustsay I've been doing this for a
number of years and doing a lotof cannabis and hemp lobbying
(02:29):
and we've never had thissituation where there was so
much interest literally peoplestanding in the halls of
Congress holding their ears upto the door, trying to hear what
was going on, and so I justlove the fact whether you're a
hemp or cannabis or bothoperator, those minds and when
you look at progress, it doesn'talways come in the form of huge
(02:52):
wins.
You know we're still waitingfor rescheduling on the cannabis
side, but to see the level ofinterest and the level of
engagement and conversationtells us that we're getting
closer and closer to thatelusive tipping point.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:07):
Well, so, when you're talking with elected
officials and their staffs inDC, there was a time when it
really felt like those were thefirst conversations that those
people were having aboutcannabis or cannabinoids, and
I'm curious of what it's likenow.
Are people tired of hearingabout it?
Does it feel like they stillneed the level of education that
(03:28):
they used to?
What are you encountering?
Ben Larson (03:31):
Well, look, I mean, you remember the days of giant
inflatable joints being carriedacross Capitol Mall, right Like
those days aren't that long ago,and what that image evokes is
probably, you know, a bunch ofhippies trying to prove their
relevance, and that still hasits place.
(03:52):
But where we are now, and wherea lot of these conversations are
hedging, is we have retailerstalking about how this is saving
their business and saving theiremployees, and we have growers
talking about how there'sactually a place for their
cannabinoids and their plants togo to and that they're
self-drew.
(04:12):
And we have consumers.
We have consumers in statesthat haven't had access to
cannabis and all of a sudden,they have access to an
alternative, and so we have justa lot more stakeholders
involved in the conversation,and, at the end of the day,
whether you believe they'redoing a good job of this or not,
the legislators must representtheir constituents at a certain
(04:34):
point, and so the voices aregetting louder, they're getting
more diverse, and I think that'swhat's been the amazing thing
about this partnership with thealcohol industry and I know
there's a lot of differentopinions on this, but when it
comes to lobbying, it puts a lotmore voices in the room and
creates a lot more relationshipsand conversations.
So I think, all in all, youknow, things are progressing
(04:57):
quickly and while there's avalid argument of, like you know
, beverage versus the rest ofthe hemp and cannabis world, it
truly is just a stepping stoneto really blowing up this
conversation.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:11):
Yeah, it's interesting to see who the
allies are at the table asthings continue to progress, for
sure.
Well, I think the United Statesof hemp is still a story to be
written.
Ben Larson (05:21):
here is still a story to be written here and
we'll see what happens.
It's fraught with turmoil.
I mean, if anyone's trackingwhat's happening in Texas.
The special sessions havesubsided and hemp remains in a
deadlock of status quo.
So the governor and thelieutenant governor couldn't
find a happy middle which allowsthe industry, for better or for
(05:46):
worse, to proliferate forhowever long they decide to do
something.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:51):
On that.
Let's talk about that for justone second.
I think that while there's alot of the hemp industry that is
very excited about what'shappening in Texas, my worry and
I think that the real losershere are the new operators that
are hoping to come into themedical program in Texas.
And you know what they did passin the legislative session was
(06:12):
an expansion of the medicalprogram and they're going to be
licensing up to 15 companies inthe state to be operating and
with no new regulations for thehemp products in the market, I
think that those companies thatwere thinking about
participating in the medicalside of the industry are going
(06:34):
to have a lot of challenge, kindof justifying the risk of
investing in that market, and Imean it's to be seen what
happens there, it's true.
Ben Larson (06:45):
But had they gone further with the cannabis
regulations and created moreaccess, maybe the lieutenant
governor and the governor wouldhave had a chance to come a
little bit closer on theirdecision making.
But it wouldn't.
It would have been a bet Frommy perspective, hemp or not.
It would have been a bad betstill, because that that
industry, the state, the stateis just too big and the way that
(07:08):
they were expanding it was justnot far enough, and I think
everyone would generally agreewith that statement.
But here's my fear is thatwithout regulations, you then
get volatility like what we'reexperiencing in Florida, where
new rules are just being made up, seemingly overnight, that
really impact businesses thatare selling into the state.
So labeling rules that suddenlycause an entire stickering job
(07:33):
to be done by everyone sellingin the state.
And we're experiencing similarthings in Minnesota right now,
even more extreme.
Minnesota hailed as the nexusof all of this being created all
of a sudden, implementing nearcannabis restrictive regulations
overnight in rulemaking.
So there was no legislativeprocess and everyone's be like
(07:54):
what do we do with this?
It's now in statute.
So, yeah, a lot going on, asalways, but that is the hemp and
cannabis world that we live in.
AnnaRae Grabstein (08:04):
Well, so let's move to some international
stories, because we don't oftencover the international market
and in this episode we're reallyexcited to have an expert in it
, and so it had us looking, too,to the international news a
little bit more, and I saw anarticle from the Economic Times
that was really interesting,reporting on India's booming
cannabis wellness market.
(08:24):
And just to remind everyone,india is now the world's most
populous nation and cannabis isboth culturally rooted in India
and increasingly a part of themodern wellness trends that are
happening there, specifically inthe non-intoxicating side
primarily, and it is reportedthat the market last year was a
(08:44):
$1.3 billion market in India,with mostly CBD oils, recovery
gels, gummies, things like that,and there is a worry from a lot
of folks in the medical spaceand in the government that
commercialization is outpacingregulation.
So it's interesting to see thiscountry that I haven't been
(09:07):
following as it really pertainsto cannabis coming out and being
a little worried about the paceof consumer excitement compared
to the pace of regulation.
Ben Larson (09:18):
Super exciting because we get so sucked into
the US business and we talkabout unlocking California.
30, 40 million people, etcetera, et cetera.
India's what like 1.4 billionpeople and like a 3000 year
history of cannabis consumption.
That's a massive opportunity,one that I can't even fathom and
(09:47):
didn't even know that there wasthat much going on.
So maybe our guest today willhave some insights there,
hopefully, Virtosa.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:51):
India.
Here we come, there you go, andyeah, and then the last story
that we'll cover before we bringon Cameron, which will really
relate to some of the thingswe're talking about, is that the
Thai parliament has elected anew prime minister, and and I'm
going to not say his namecorrectly, but I'll try Anutan
Charanvarakul.
Ben Larson (10:09):
Oh, I thought his name was Cannabis King.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:12):
Cannabis King he's often been called.
In 2022, he was the healthminister and he was the first
one to announce the country'snarcotics agency had approved
the descheduling of cannabisfrom the ministry's list of
controlled drugs, makingThailand the first Asian country
to do so.
Decriminalization has been asource of controversy in
Thailand and we'll talk aboutthat more, but it is an
(10:35):
interesting political moment tonow have this cannabis advocate
in the top leadership seat inthe country and there has been a
really huge, widespreadproliferation of cannabis seat
in the country and there hasbeen a really huge widespread
proliferation of cannabis allover the country.
I think that we'll be learningmore about that today, but but
excited to be seeing Thailandtop of the headlines in cannabis
(10:55):
.
Ben Larson (10:55):
I have so many questions because I know it was
building and there waslegalization and then there's a
retracting of that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:03):
Let's bring on Cameron then.
Cameron Clark is the co-founderand CEO of Sunderstorm, a
manufacturer behind theaward-winning cannabis brand
Kanha.
He's a serial entrepreneur witha really interesting background
.
He launched one of the firstelectronic courtrooms in the 90s
.
He built a video streamingcompany back in the early days
(11:24):
of the internet.
He's innovated in augmentedreality and even imported acai
before it was trendy.
Beyond business, cameron hasfounded nonprofits and biohacker
spaces and has exploredeverything from algae research
to synthetic biology.
And, of course, he's also aStanford grad who now spends his
energy taking cannabis global,so really excited to bring on
(11:48):
Cameron.
Welcome to the show today,cameron.
Cameron Clarke (11:51):
Thank you very much, anna Rae.
Happy to be here.
Been good to see you, you too,man.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:55):
Well, so you've been a builder in
multiple industries.
What made cannabis the nextfrontier for you?
Cameron Clarke (12:02):
You know it's really interesting.
That's a long story and I won'tgive you the entire story, but
basically it's been a life'sjourney.
I know I took a hard right-handturn in my mid-40s and traveled
around the world, did a lotmore plant medicines than I'd
done before and, you know, theuniverse basically just
delivered me to cannabis when itwas going legal and it's.
(12:25):
You know, plant medicines areone of my big passions and this
has been super exciting.
For us to be one of the driversin this industry through
legalization and to see it goglobal is super exciting because
I believe that everybody almosteveryone, can use these plant
medicines in a beneficial way.
So, connor, we see ourselves asa wellness brand and we are
(12:47):
thrilled to be driving wellnessinto people's lives,
particularly in this verychaotic world we live in today.
Ben Larson (12:55):
Chaotic is definitely the word, as our
intro highlighted, but you'vebeen living the chaos since 2015
, which is exactly when Ientered the space as well.
So, like a year before welegalized in California your
California based company, canyou talk about that journey for
you, as far as going from thoseearly days in the California
(13:16):
market, which we always anointedas the largest contiguous
cannabis market, et cetera, etcetera to now being, you know, a
global leader in building acannabis brand?
Like?
What were the major jumps foryou from going to addressing the
California opportunity tobecoming a global wellness brand
.
Cameron Clarke (13:34):
Yeah, I think that's really a great question
and I and I and I love thatquestion because I got to tell
you when I, you know, if youtold me five years, or let's
call it six or seven years agothat we were going to be a
global brand, I probably wouldhave scoffed at that.
And so, you know, this journeyhas been really incredible.
It's not that I didn't want tobe, it's just that, you know, I
thought that it was probably outof our reach.
(13:55):
And it just goes to show youthat, you know, if you drive
hard and just pursue yourpassions, you know, all kinds of
great things can happen and youcan make great progress.
So for us, my partner and I,keith, went to Stanford together
back in the day.
We've known each other for many, many years and we looked at
each other.
You know, when it was headingtowards, when Colorado went
(14:17):
legal, and we said, you know, wegot to get in this industry
we're very passionate aboutplant medicines and we looked
around you know the entirecountry and we said, where
should we go?
Right, because I was willing tomove anywhere to start the
business.
And we knew that Colorado wasbooming.
And you know, we looked at.
You know, canada was at thatpoint, was lining up and was
(14:38):
very close to going legal, andwe basically just said look, you
know what, if California isgoing to be the biggest market,
if we can win here, we can winanywhere.
It's kind of like New Yorkright, you can succeed in New
York, you can succeed anywhere.
So we started in California.
We learned a lot fromCalifornia and I think that's
one of the reasons why we'vebeen successful is that it's
been a great proving ground forus.
(15:00):
It's been super challenging, aseverybody on this podcast knows
and you know round.
For us it's been superchallenging, as everybody on
this podcast knows, but it'sbeen incredibly valuable and
we've been able to learn a lot.
So back in 2019, 2020, we didour national expansion.
We launched into three newstates and that was an exciting
moment after we had felt like wehad become a dominant brand in
California, we had become a top10 brand, so we decided to
(15:22):
expand nationally.
Other brands had expandedearlier with licensing deals,
but we wanted to make sure thatwe had a very stable base before
we conducted our expansion.
And then, in 2022, I had theopportunity, through one of our
partners, to get an introductioninto Thailand, right after
Thailand had been descheduled bya Newton, and so I have a
(15:43):
personal background ininternational trade, which I did
for many years, so I understandinternational business.
I've spent a lot of time inThailand, done a lot of business
in Thailand over the years, andso for me to go find this
opportunity in Thailand, whichis the first Asian country to
(16:03):
allow cannabis, was a veryexciting opportunity.
And so, you know, in two weeksI cut a deal, signed the MOU and
we were off and running.
And one of the personalexperiences that I really
appreciate was we had a booth atthe first Hemp Asia show, which
is where a Newton, right afterhe had descheduled it, actually
gave the opening talk.
(16:24):
And right after he gave theopening talk he gave a little
press conference for fiveminutes afterwards and then he
walked up the aisle, came intoour booth and took a picture
with me and my new partners.
So that's when I realized thatmy partners were very well
connected.
Ben Larson (16:38):
That's so cool.
Cameron Clarke (16:39):
He walked off and he was gone, so I realized
that we were well connected andthat's very important in a lot
of these countries around theworld.
Ben Larson (16:49):
I hear that is the hallmark of doing business in
Southeast Asia.
I'm going to jump in reallyquick just for a quick request
for some advice, because I waslistening to your interview with
our friends over at the Dime, Ipulled this quote.
It says when you do good work,opportunities come to your
doorstep, and that is somethingwe're experiencing right now.
(17:09):
How do you weigh, as anentrepreneur with an exciting
business jumping atopportunities and quickly
spinning something up inThailand, against avoiding kind
of like the shiny objectsyndrome?
You guys are doing a lot andwe'll get into all the things
you're doing in just a bit, butlike just that decision matrix,
because everything seemsexciting, it does.
Cameron Clarke (17:32):
And I will tell you that for us, if you ask my
team if we're doing too much,they're going to say yes.
So I'm one of those people thatI don't know if I necessarily
like the shiny objects.
I like interestingopportunities that I feel
confident that we can takeadvantage of and leverage.
(17:53):
So I call them pinholes ofopportunity.
So in my younger years I movedso fast and drove so hard and
felt like I could accomplishanything that I wasn't paying
attention to what was going onaround me and so I bypassed, I
think, a lot of opportunitiesthat I should have paid more
attention to.
And now, as I get older, alittle more mature, a little
(18:15):
more experienced and have abunch of failures under my belt
as well as some successes, I'verealized that slowing down is
better.
And looking for theseopportunities around that
they're not necessarily bright,shiny, know slowing down is
better.
And looking for theseopportunities around that
they're not necessarily bright,shiny objects, but they're dim,
shiny objects and I call thempinholes of opportunity.
And if you go, look throughthat pinhole and you and you and
you take a look at it, if youclimb through it, you will find
(18:37):
a whole new world of reallyinteresting and great stuff and
I think that's how I live mylife these days is not
necessarily looking for theshiniest thing, but paying
attention to all the littleopportunities that are around
that could grow into somethingmuch more important, and so for
me personally, I think that'sreally been a massive
(18:59):
philosophical change in my lifethat's gone on in the last 15
years.
AnnaRae Grabstein (19:04):
I love what you're saying because I often
think of cannabis entrepreneursas market makers, people that
are really creating spaces wherethere hasn't been one before,
and this pinhole of opportunityidea really feels like it hones
in on that concept.
And I want to dive into whatyou're seeing around the world.
We've touched on that.
(19:25):
You did this deal in Thailandbut I know that you are watching
for pinholes of opportunityaround the entire globe and I'd
love it if you could give usyour broad perspective on both
kind of like the big macroperspective of like what's
happening on all the differentcontinents, but even where there
is a pinhole, that you see oneopening it up and going a little
bit more macro perspective oflike what's happening on all the
different continents, but evenwhere, where there is a pinhole,
(19:46):
that you see one opening it upand going a little bit more deep
for us, yeah, I think theglobal markets are super
interesting and I'm really gladyou guys talked about it at the
beginning of the podcast,because that's really, to be
honest, the most exciting thingfor me.
Cameron Clarke (20:02):
So for me, you know, for us we have very large,
very challenging competitors inthe edible space nationwide.
Some of them have, you know, amuch longer time, for a longer
timeframe, even though we'vebeen at this for 10 years.
They've been at it for longerand so they've been able to make
a little bit more hay in the US.
So when I saw the globalopportunity kind of started to
(20:25):
come to fruition, I decided tochange our game a little bit.
Right, we're still driving hardin the US market, but we really
wanted to become a global brand.
So in 2022, I startedcanvassing the global market,
really paying attention to whatwas going on in the global
market.
So what I saw was a lot of talkabout how slow things were
going.
But when I went and visitedthese markets and I looked at
(20:46):
actually what's happening, itfelt a lot like what I had seen
in the US right in ourtransition in some of these
markets.
You know, even though it's verymedical right and the US is
truly, really recreational.
Those markets were stillevolving in a way that looked
similar to what my experiencehad been.
So as I paid attention to it, Irealized that the little, small
(21:10):
signs are starting to occurwhere these markets are
developing.
But ultimately, what's going todrive these markets is a
consumer base that is verypassionate about the plant and
that exists all over the globe,and I think that is what's
really the most important thingfor people to understand is
whether it's recreational ormedical, or focus on wellness,
(21:31):
as we do, or whatever you'redoing, cannabis is a plant that
has a massive consumer base andhas for millennia right, and so
we're just creating structurearound the globe for access to
this plant, and that's one ofthe most beautiful things about
it.
As I started to pay attentionand more recently, what I've
(21:53):
realized is that, as germany youknow, it started to get
exciting.
You see, you've seen kind ofyou're seeing kind of a shift in
how the global markets areoperating.
So south africa, for example,has been a big supplier of
cannabis flour for a while andthat's been driving a lot into
Europe.
But then, you know, colombiahas taken forever to kind of get
(22:15):
their act together and kind ofstep into the market, but that's
actually now starting tostabilize.
They're moving very smallquantities, but their market is
slowly evolving.
But, in general, what we see isAustralia is a country that is,
it's basically a rec marketmasquerading as a medical market
.
California 2015.
Exactly right.
(22:36):
So, because the consumers thereare very passionate about the
plant, and then you see a verystrong market starting to
develop in Europe and the UK.
So that's exciting, and thingsare starting to catch wind.
In the UK, for example, youonly have 50,000 or 60,000
patients today, but they believethat it could be 100,000
patients by the end of the year,and so these markets will
(22:59):
evolve quickly, and so don'tscoff at the fact there's only
50,000 patients in the UK.
If you look at the black marketin the UK, it's massive.
If you look at the black marketin Europe, it's massive, and so
what we need to do is the samething that we've been trying to
do in the States is basicallyevolve that black market and
bring them into the licensed orrecreational market or, as we
(23:22):
have here, the hemp market,which is a totally different
discussion.
But ultimately, what we need todo is create safe, stable,
consistent products thatconsumers can get access to, and
so that's what we're all doingin this licensed market and it's
super important.
And I will actually say onething is there's a lot of
complaints about California,about how we screwed up the
(23:43):
recreational market by creatinglegalization.
I will say that it took me ayear and a half to find truly
clean, pesticide-free cannabis.
Everybody was saying, oh, I'vegot clean weed, oh, I've got
pesticide-free.
We tested everything from thebeginning.
It was flooded with pesticidesand I was thrilled when we
finally got to the recreationalmarket and we could really truly
(24:07):
access a consistent supply ofsafe, pesticide-free cannabis
oil to put into our productsBack to the global markets.
So they've started to evolve andyou see that South Africa is
still one of the importantsuppliers, but you've got
Thailand and Canada now over thelast couple of years that have
(24:28):
really started to evolve indriving a lot of the cannabis
flower sales globally.
Thailand's still getting on itsfeet in terms of stable product
, the test right and all that.
Canada has been shipping toEurope for quite some time.
So that's good.
So we're seeing these globalmarkets and international trade
really starting to develop and Ithink that's very exciting news
(24:50):
for everyone.
So that trust is starting tooccur in the line that the
channels of trade are evolving.
So for us as a cannabis brand,that's fantastic, because now I
can manufacture or cultivate inone or two countries and then I
can access the globe.
So it's really about now.
It's about finding where arethe right places to set up our
(25:12):
cultivation and manufacturingand how do we address the
regulatory frameworks so that wecan actually provide products
that are compliant with thedestination markets.
So destinations Europe andAustralia really are the big
ones.
As we see it today we areentering in Japan with CBD and
(25:33):
CBG CBM products.
So that's interesting.
Thailand has been a prettystrong market for a while.
It's evolving right now, butthere's a lot happening and I
think that's the exciting thing.
Ben Larson (25:44):
I'm going to have to go rewrite my operating plan
for next year.
AnnaRae Grabstein (25:48):
Well, you, you brought up this, this whole
idea about this, on thisexisting consumer base all over
the world and, and I think weknow that people have been
consuming cannabis forever.
What I, what I don't have agood grasp on is what a
transition from a largelyillicit market will be in some
of these countries to a moreregulated market, and it's been
(26:11):
really painful.
In the US.
We've seen most of the marketremain in the unregulated
channels and it's this constantpush and pull and enforcement.
There's varied opinions aboutthe best way to do that and what
criminalization is appropriateor not appropriate.
When you legalize a plant, eventhough people are doing outside
(26:35):
of the legal framework, how doyou see that unfolding in the
countries that you think aregoing to be the biggest consumer
opportunities?
You mentioned Australia andGermany.
How do you see that playing out?
Cameron Clarke (26:48):
Yeah, I think that's a really super important
question and I see it as chaos,because that's what we've kind
of endured in the US's.
Really it's challenging, right,because if you just completely
de-schedule this plant andallowed full access across the
(27:08):
board with with very minimalregulation, what we would find
is a massive market.
We would find a growing market.
We would find a lot of happyconsumers.
You would find, you know,pricing probably moderate
pricing stability but I thinkyou would also find a lot of
product that's unsafe.
(27:29):
And if you look at the hempmarket in the US, this is kind
of, you know, it's a litmus test.
We can see what that looks like.
The hemp market has been prettymuch unregulated for two or
three years now and you see alot of products that consumers
should not be consuming, and sowe need to have a certain amount
(27:52):
of regulation so that we canhave safe, consistent products
that are medicine for millionsof people.
The amount of regulation isbasically a governor on the
adoption and the let's just callit the adoption cycle of this
amazing plant, and I think noone has figured out the right
(28:16):
recipe.
It's super complicated.
I mean, if you look in Germany,where they're filling vapes one
at a time at the pharmacy,which is what they've been doing
.
It's kind of silly.
Then you look at Thailand,where they just blew the doors
wide open and most of theproducts in the market were
untested, although our products.
There we made sure thateverything was tested and that's
(28:37):
what we touted from the verybeginning.
It's pretty chaotic.
You know, none of us werearound when alcohol was
legalized again in the 30s andso we don't really know whether
it took 10 or 20 years for it toreally be.
You know, shift away from thesebackwoods distilleries to, you
(28:59):
know, to a fully regulated, safemarket.
But I think for us, I think wejust have to realize that it's
going to be a bit chaotic and wejust have to do the best we can
.
And for anybody that's actuallyin the industry and operating
in the industry, it's a buckingbronco.
You just got to hang on fordear life and you got to make
sure that you don't make baddecisions and that you navigate
(29:19):
through it very carefully.
We do it at Sundarström in away where we just we take as
much information and data as wecan possibly absorb and we throw
it against the wall and then weargue for hours.
So you know, it gets a littleintense at times, but I'm a
leader that basically values myopinions, the opinions of my
(29:44):
team and my colleagues, and wedebate things endlessly, and I
think that's one of the reasonsthat we've avoided some of the
pitfalls that other companieshave not avoided.
We certainly have made mistakes.
I wish I hadn't made thosemistakes, but this industry is
really difficult and to be ableto navigate through this is
(30:05):
incredibly challenging.
I just don't see.
I don't see that it's going tobe any different, and I'll tell
you a funny story.
When we entered Thailand back in2022, you know, we, we, we.
We got up and running, we wereselling products, and every time
I talked to someone aboutThailand, I said, oh my God, but
I keep hearing it's going to berescheduled.
It's very chaotic.
(30:25):
Man, how do you deal with that?
I said, well, I started inCalifornia.
I mean, california wasincredibly chaotic back in the
day and I was running from thecops every day, so hiding our
facility back in 2015.
So it's just the nature of thisindustry and one of the things
(30:47):
that those of us in the industryhave to do is we have to work
better together to drive it in adirection that makes sense, and
I think there's a lot of roomfor improvement there.
And how do you do that on aglobal basis when the European
markets want to be highlyregulated, and Australia as well
?
It's challenging, but I thinkwe just need to keep
(31:09):
destigmatizing the plant andletting people recognize that
there are different valuepropositions and uses of this
plant, and there are some veryhighly medical uses and there
are some recreational uses, andthen there's kind of a blend in
the middle and that's what makesthis plant so complex.
So I don't know, that's notreally a good answer to your
(31:31):
question, but I think it's justsomething that we need to drive
forward and, as companies andCEOs, just have to do the best
you can to make good decisions.
Ben Larson (31:44):
I love how you highlight the importance of
optionality and creating thesedifferent levers so that you can
weather the volatility, and soit's like it's almost
counterintuitive, but Iunderstand from running our
business.
It's like the more exposure youhave, the more exposed you are
to volatility, but it gives youat least different accelerator
(32:05):
pedals to push on to at leastmaintain the financials of the
company.
You do have a significant partof your company that is built
around nanotech and nanodelivery, but it's a highly diversified
portfolio, everywhere from vapesto normal gummies to ones
(32:25):
infused with nanotech.
And I'm curious what is thedata telling you about different
markets, legacy markets likeCalifornia, new markets?
I don't know if you callThailand a new market because
it's been there for a while, buthow do these different product
offerings show up for you as acompany in the various markets
that you're serving aroundaround the world or around the U
(32:47):
S?
Cameron Clarke (32:48):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, this year is our 10year anniversary, so I'm
thrilled to be celebrating our10 year anniversary.
It's huge, amazing to get to 10years, so that's great.
But in fact, 10 years ago, wewere the first company in the
industry to launch ananotechnology, which was a
liposomal technology in ourtinctures.
(33:09):
And so, because I have ascience background, I
immediately understood the valueproposition of nanotechnology
and fast acting.
And I know that with plantmedicines a lot of people over
consume or overdose because theydon't feel the effect right
away, and so I wanted tocompress that timeframe at which
people could actually feel theeffect, and so that's been a big
driver for us over the years.
(33:31):
While we started with thenanotechnology and the tinctures
, we then followed that with thegummies later, and you know
it's interesting, in mostmarkets the nano gummies are the
most popular in.
In most markets, the nano, thenano, um gummies are the most
popular, and but in some markets, you know, our classic gummies
are the are the most popular.
So it's really interesting tosee that there is some
(33:53):
variability in the markets.
I think part of it has to dowith, you know, legacy consumers
versus new consumers Um, newconsumers, I think are you know?
When we look at the data, um,uh, we find that new consumers,
new consumers, I think.
When we look at the data, wefind that new consumers seem to
feel more comfortable withnanotechnology because they feel
the effect faster.
Ben Larson (34:09):
Is there a price differential between the two
products?
AnnaRae Grabstein (34:12):
There is there is there, is I'm wondering
why anybody would not choose ananotechnology.
You know, I'll tell you why.
Cameron Clarke (34:21):
Because the nanotechnology is, know, I'll
tell you why.
Because because, um, uh, forthe nanotechnology tends to is
more bioavailable, but it getsin and gets out of the system
faster.
So, you know, for a lot ofpeople they can just consume,
you know, another, another gummyor whatever.
But I think that you know, whenyou look at a sleep product,
for example, you want to stayasleep and so we have formulated
(34:42):
so.
Originally, our Tranquilityproduct did not have the
nanotechnology in it because wewanted to stay in the bodies of
consumers throughout the night.
However, our new sleep formulathat we've created, we've
modified that a bit so thatwe've used the nanotechnology on
certain cannabinoids and notothers to basically create an
effect that's both fast actingand longer lasting throughout
(35:05):
the night.
So that took a couple years forus to develop and I know, for
example, ben, with Vertosa, it'sa great job that you've done
there with getting that into allthese beverages.
I think it's beverages thecloser that we can get on the
beverage effect to be more likealcohol, so you feel it quickly,
it's a much better experiencefor the consumers and I think
(35:27):
that's what we really.
That's one of the things that'sreally driven this beverage
market is that consumers.
With these nanotechnologies andfast-acting technologies,
they've been able to actuallyfeel the effect.
So I think this technology issuper important yeah absolutely.
AnnaRae Grabstein (35:43):
I wonder how you think about other form
factors and and what you'velearned from nanotechnology in
terms of where the market mightbe going and innovation.
I know you're in vape and vapeis like one of those self
titrating like you feel it rightaway Is.
Is there innovation coming inthat form factor or in others
that is similar?
(36:04):
Is something going to be asdisruptive as nanotech has been
to gummies and to other edibles?
Cameron Clarke (36:11):
I don't necessarily think so, but it's
possible.
I will tell you that the dosingmechanisms on vapes is starting
to be really important for themedical markets.
For example, in Europe there isa movement towards being able
to prepackage product andinstead of having the pharmacy
fill it.
So that's actually finallystarting to happen, and a lot of
(36:32):
that has to do with the abilityto dose a certain quantity in
the vape products.
But that's not new technology,right?
That's been in California here.
It's been in the US for what?
Eight years or something atleast that I know of.
So I think Dosis was the firstone that came out with that.
So it's a good question.
(36:54):
I think in California, forexample, if you look at the
history of products, you hadhundreds of different types of
cannabis products seven or eightyears ago.
You know you had it in potatochips and you had it in all
kinds of.
You know you had it in hotsauces and all kinds of stuff.
You don't see so much.
You don't see much of thattoday.
Consumers have really voted withtheir pocketbooks on what form
(37:17):
factors they really like.
I do think there are other formfactors that consumers will
begin to adopt a little bitoutside, but in terms of these
cool new technologies.
I think it's really related tothe cannabinoids themselves and
the terpenes and how we blendall these products together with
(37:37):
, by the way, other coactiveingredients that create a
specific effect.
So the one thing that really Ithink we're all driving towards,
or a lot of us are drivingtowards, is functionality in
these products.
What is the purpose?
Why am I taking cannabis today?
Am I taking it to relax?
Am I taking it for pain?
Am I taking it for sleep,anxiety?
(37:58):
What have you?
So I think that's where we're,that's where we're really
driving to towards in terms ofinnovation ben, he's speaking
your language oh, I know, I'mloving it.
Ben Larson (38:08):
I'm loving it.
Before you talked about that, Iwas going to say the the main
place we can innovate uh, whichI now agree with you, but beyond
that was actually less on thedelivery mechanism and more on
access, and that's what we'reexperiencing right now in the US
is innovative access to theplant and how that's creating
(38:29):
huge consumer base.
And, cameron, I know you'vebeen working in the tourism or
the hospitality channels and Iwould love to just hear what
excites you about this, likekind of how you're thinking
about it as far as kind ofgrowing the opportunity for not
only Kanha but the plant ingeneral.
Cameron Clarke (38:50):
Yeah, I think this is a really, really
important question.
So, because we believe thatKanha is a wellness brand and
we're doing this because webelieve wholeheartedly in the
wellness value proposition ofthe plant, which is kind of a
blend of recreational andmedical and kind of envelops all
types of consumers we dobelieve that access is crucially
(39:12):
important.
And so, as the world gets morechaotic and post-COVID it's been
quite chaotic and I don't seeit getting any less chaotic, to
be honest, with politics and allthe stress that we have in our
lives what I'm seeing out in thegeneral population is that
people are much, much moreinterested every single day with
, you know, finding vacationsand places to go where they can
(39:37):
relax and they can de-stress andthey can, they can, you know,
pull off the layers of of ofcomplexity that exists in all of
our lives, and so thesewellness resorts and wellness
retreats are booming, and sowhat we've been trying to push
towards is try to find, you know, resorts where we can, you know
(39:57):
, places to go where people canactually consume cannabis in a
in a safe way, maybe for thefirst time, maybe not, but
they're.
But they, they, they can, theycan feel safe, they can be
relaxed and they can.
They can learn how to to doseit properly for whatever the
whatever the reason is that theywant they want to consume it.
And so a year ago we came acrossa hotel called the Beach Samui,
(40:22):
which is in Thailand, and so wedeveloped a partnership with
them because they had theconcept from the very beginning
that they wanted to create awellness resort that was really
plant medicine based, that hadjust completely descheduled the
(40:43):
plant and didn't have all theserigorous regulations around it.
The beach sommelier was able tocreate an environment with a
dispensary right inside thelobby of the hotel.
We could put our you know, foradults who wanted to consume it
for sleep, we could put oursleep gummies on the bedside
right next to where they're totake before they go to bed.
You can sit in a bathtub, outon the balcony looking over the
(41:04):
beautiful Thailand ocean, andsmoke a joint and chill out.
If you want, you can get amassage and eat a gummy before
you have your massage.
So they really try to integratecannabis wellness into the
day-to-day experience of theirvisitors at the resort, and I
(41:25):
think that's been a beautifulthing.
I believe that these kinds ofresorts are going to be more and
more popular as we go throughtime, and this is what consumers
are seeking, and I think it'snot just cannabis.
You're going to see clinicalenvironments in these resorts
(41:47):
where they have full access todoctors for both cannabis as
well as, potentially, psilocybinand other psychedelic
treatments.
I mean, people want to gethealed right, they want to feel
better, they want to de-stressfrom all the anxiety in their
lives, and these resorts are agreat place to be able to offer
this, as long as they do it in awellness way, in a safe way,
(42:12):
which means that for some of thestuff, they'll need access to
doctors, and so we actually,through my partnership with our
JV partner in they have createda clinic in Thailand with
doctors on staff that can doremote consultations, because my
(42:35):
partners were one of the firstfive medical license holders in
2018 in Thailand.
So having these doctors onstaff and being able to consult
with the resort or other resortsis really a great thing, and I
think that blend is veryimportant, and we're going to
see more and more of that aroundthe world as the regulations
begin to relax a little bit, asthe stigma goes away, so I think
(42:58):
all of us in the industryshould be driving towards this,
because it really helps theconsumers gain access and also
gain comfort with this amazingplan.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:09):
I'm so here for this, and we've been talking
about having a high spiritsretreat for a long time.
Maybe we need to take ourdestination to Thailand.
Cameron Clarke (43:18):
Do it at the Beach Tamui Hotel, for sure.
Our ambitions just got muchhigher.
AnnaRae Grabstein (43:23):
Oh my gosh sounds great.
And tourism it really has beenan economic driver as states
around the US have turned on.
When Colorado was an earlyentrant into the adult use
market, colorado really raisedtheir hand and talked about how
Las Vegas has been seeing like adecrease in tourism overall and
(43:54):
the cannabis industry there hastalked about how that has
affected their businesssignificantly.
So I think that it's a doubleedged sword.
Is that when we build aroundtourism, it also can really hurt
when the tourism shifts.
But I'm so excited for it.
I am all about the wellnessretreat space myself.
(44:17):
I am the consumer for that, soI can't wait to get to more
confidently consume cannabiswhen I travel, for sure.
Cameron Clarke (44:26):
I will tell you something, and there's a lot of
people that will debate me onthis, but I've been spending a
lot of time in Thailand the lastthree years and there are a lot
of tourists flooding toThailand to go consume cannabis,
perhaps for the first time orperhaps just because they're big
cannabis consumers and theycan't get access to it at home.
(44:46):
And one of the things that Isaw that really blew my mind is
countries.
You know a lot of Islamiccountries, for example, you know
, coming to Thailand to go smoke, go smoke cannabis because they
don't drink, and people fromall over the world, all walks of
life, just coming there.
And there's no doubt in my mindthat that cannabis in Thailand
(45:07):
has helped the tourism industryand I think it has to be
controlled to some extent.
Right, you can't have iteverywhere, right, for the
consumers that don't want tosmell the smell or whatever, but
provide access where you can.
AnnaRae Grabstein (45:21):
Yeah, and I think not just for people trying
it for the first time.
But as cannabis becomes morenormal around the world, people
start using cannabis regularlyin their lives and they don't
want to go on vacation in placeswhere, all of a sudden, they're
going to accidentally be acriminal because they had a vape
in their bag and that's areally scary thing.
(45:42):
Nobody wants that.
Cameron Clarke (45:46):
And, interestingly enough, I didn't
mention earlier but there aretwo recreational trials going on
in Europe right now.
One is in Switzerland and theother one is in the Netherlands,
and they're super interesting.
We know that we can for yearsbeen able to buy cannabis in the
Netherlands, but now they'veactually created this more
formal structure for arecreational test.
(46:06):
What's interesting about thedifference in those two markets
and they're likely to be thefirst two truly recreational
markets in Europe Switzerlandhas limited access by saying
only a very small number ofpatients can get access to this
recreational test and it'ssupposed to go on for a few
years but will likely probablygrow recreational sooner.
(46:29):
The Netherlands is limited notby the number of patients but by
the number of dispensaries, soI think it's 90, 98, 95, I don't
know something like that wherethey're running this
recreational test.
But they have an unlimitednumber of consumers that they
can actually serve, which meansthat people can actually fly to
(46:52):
the Netherlands, as they couldin the past, but now truly, you
know, in a very open way andconsume cannabis, buy cannabis
and consume cannabis.
So so the tourism industry wewill see, I believe, will
continue to grow in theNetherlands because of this
really full access to the plant.
So this is going to get drivenglobally.
(47:13):
Cannabis tourism is going to bea big deal.
Ben Larson (47:16):
It's amazing I'm just reflecting on the brand For
anyone that's not watching thevideo over Cameron's shoulder is
this beautiful mandala withlike a tiger on it.
I know that's largely been yourbranding since you've started,
but now you're leading thecharge in Southeast Asia.
What a beautiful alignment ofbrand and market.
(47:36):
Was this foreseen or was this?
How did you think aboutbuilding the kind of brand?
What made you go with this?
And I'll just acknowledge that,as an Asian person, I don't see
a lot of Asian branding in thespace, so I've always
appreciated that about the brand.
Cameron Clarke (47:53):
Great.
Thank you so much.
You know, when we created thebrand, both Keith and I have
traveled the world extensively.
We're both very, verypassionate travelers of Asia and
really love Asian culture in somany ways.
I will include Indian culturein there as well.
(48:15):
I've spent a lot of timetraveling India and you know
ashrams and studying over there.
So we, you know, we wanted tocreate a brand that people could
trust, and, and so for us wehad to, you know, shift away
from, you know, a lot of theblack and green and a lot of the
darkness that was around theplant because it was still, you
(48:38):
know, not not fully legal in theus, at least in california.
When we started, we reallyappreciated, you know, some of
the asian philosophies.
So Kanha is actually an Indianword in some dialects for food,
but it's also a different namefor Krishna, and Krishna is the
God of wisdom, compassion andlove.
(48:59):
So it's really why I wanted toget into this industry.
Right, it was to be able toprovide people a way to live
better lives, and that's reallywhat we do here every single day
.
So the tiger is a symbol ofstrength and the tiger actually
there's a kind of tiger preservein India.
So it was a perfect.
It was a perfect blend of of asymbol that really meant
(49:21):
something to us, because we knewwe had to be strong to drive,
you know, to endure all thechallenges in this industry, and
to be strong to give people areason to actually follow the
plant and and get access to it.
So, so, when I had theopportunity to open up a talent,
it was a natural and they lovedour they, they, they loved our
(49:41):
logo, they loved our tiger.
We couldn't, you know, peoplewere fighting over the t-shirts
in our, in our trade show booths, which was exciting.
So it's really come full circlein a big way, as, as Ben, I
think you alluded to, and it'sexciting for us because we
really do believe in the powerof the plant and we want to, we
want to lead people to better,you know, live better lives and
(50:03):
and and healthier lives, andthat's what this plant does, and
so that's really on a very muchon brand for us, and to be able
to offer this globally is superexciting.
AnnaRae Grabstein (50:12):
I want to go back to something that you said
earlier.
You talked about how somepeople on your team think that
you're doing too much, and we'vetouched on this global
footprint and the US footprint alot of, when there's a lot of
things we didn't even get totouch on in this conversation.
But I'm curious as we looktowards the end of 2025, how do
(50:34):
you make plans for your teamtogether, collaboratively, to
get together your plan for 2026?
And what is your processtackling that?
Cameron Clarke (50:46):
Yeah, let me mention a couple of things first
your process, tackling,tackling that, yeah, yeah, let
me mention a couple things first.
So, number one we'll be signingan mou today to open up
manufacturing in in macedonia,north macedonia, which is super
exciting, which will give usaccess to eu gmp, fully eu gmp,
uh product development which wecan, which will be able to sell
in europe and in australia.
So, so that's an exciting thing.
(51:07):
And obviously we do believe inthe globalization of the Kanha
brand.
And while, on one hand, my teamsays, oh my God, we're doing
something, we're doing more,they get excited about it.
And it's kind of funny,actually, because we started to
have some calls with theMacedonian operator and to talk
(51:29):
through all the productdevelopment and EUGMP and
setting up the manufacturingspace and all of that.
One of the comments that wassaid to me was, while the call
was actually focused on a fewthings that didn't necessarily
involve the entire team, thewhole team wanted to be on the
call and it was six o'clock inthe morning, so they're super
excited to build a global brand.
(51:49):
I think, think, that's.
That's one of the that's one ofthe things that puts a giant
smile on my face, and so, whileit's hard work and, you know,
requires people to work at oddhours, at times they just feel
like we're we're.
We're.
We're doing what we set out todo, which is to change the world
, and I think that's awesome.
So, to answer your question,how do we plan for 2026?
(52:09):
Ultimately, we create astrategy, right, and we have
strategy sessions and we defineall the different things that we
want to accomplish, which is apretty complicated list of
things, and we prioritize themand then we build a strategic
plan around those priorities andwe build timelines and then we
(52:30):
build a full bottom-up budget,that is, by every general ledger
account for the full coststructure and for our full plan
for our company, and then wedrive towards that budget.
We do adjust it on a quarterlybasis, but that's what we put
together.
So, while I'm typically the onethat's driving most of the new
(52:54):
opportunities, whether it's newstates, new products let's call
it new product categories,because new products we have our
product team that does that Newproduct categories with the CRO
and with the sales team and Isaid new states and then also
new countries and new globalopportunities, which is really
where I'm focusing a reasonablechunk of my time.
We just throw this into the mixand then we argue about it for
(53:18):
days and figure out where can weget the biggest bang for the
buck.
And sometimes we're motivatedby financial decisions and
sometimes we're motivated bybrand development decisions.
But ultimately, I want to makea very important point here, the
most important, the one thingthat we drive towards everything
we do in this company whetherit's sweeping the floor or
(53:40):
whether it's, you know, openingup in a new market it's all
about building the kind of brandright, and so everything rolls
up into our brand story and wemake sure that everything we do
is aligned fully aligned withbuilding that brand.
So even when we take on, youknow, new brands and others in
our distribution in California,for example, it still helps the
(54:03):
kind of brand that we think ofit that way.
So I think that's reallyimportant for others in this
industry to think about, like,what is your ultimate priority?
And make sure that everythingthat you do rolls up to that
priority.
And if it doesn't, then youknow, maybe take it off the
table.
I will give you a perfectexample.
So we've been in the hemp marketfor a while, but not in states
(54:25):
where we're licensed, because wedon't want to compete with our
customers.
We got into the market becausewe fully understood where the
hemp market was going and it waspretty easy for us to really
see the value proposition there.
But we had an opportunity toget into that market earlier,
when it was all Delta 8.
We decided not to go in asDelta 8, even though we'd been
(54:47):
looking at that market for ayear because we didn't feel like
the Delta 8 was really on brandfor us, and so we made the
decision to not to do that.
I wish that I had seen a littleearlier the true value
proposition at D9 in those daysDidn't look deep enough, right.
But you know, you have, youknow, and I still would live
(55:09):
with that decision.
To be honest, um, on the DAcause, I don't think it really
was not bad for us and so youjust have to.
You have, that's how you haveto look at it.
And then you got to build alist, prioritize and then build
your bottom up budget and makesure that the financial aspect
fully makes sense.
AnnaRae Grabstein (55:27):
Cameron, this has been a masterclass.
I think there's so much more wecould talk to you about.
I'm loving part two.
Ben Larson (55:34):
You got to come back .
AnnaRae Grabstein (55:35):
I have so many questions for you, so many,
or we'll just have a privatemeeting later, but it is time
for our last call.
So, cameron, what is your finalmessage for our listeners?
Advice, call to action.
Closing thought that you'd liketo leave them with.
Cameron Clarke (55:49):
You know, I would say a couple of things.
Number one I know it's hard outthere, it's super challenging.
Stay true to your passion forthe plant, because we are
changing the world and don'tforget that.
But make sure that when you'redriving your business, you're
driving towards that.
And I would also say you knowwhat no-transcript, you know
(56:31):
let's and let's work bettertogether.
Stay true to the plant.
Ben Larson (56:35):
Yeah.
Cameron Clarke (56:36):
By the way, if people want access, if people
want to know where to find us,you can find us on Instagram and
our website.
Kanha Bliss is our, is ourlicensed, and Kanha is our hemp
business for states where folkswant access where we're not
licensed Awesome.
Ben Larson (56:53):
Thank you, amazing Cameron.
Thank you so much, truly.
A masterclass, it was all goldand for anyone just listening,
it is K-A-N-H-A.
That's correct, cameron Clark,the CEO of Kanha.
Thank you so much.
Really, we need to catch upsoon because I have so many more
questions.
Cameron Clarke (57:13):
There's a lot we could talk about, so I'm happy
to do round two with you guys.
AnnaRae Grabstein (57:17):
Awesome, thank you.
Ben Larson (57:19):
All right, everybody .
What do you think?
Thank you for watching, thankyou for listening, for
commenting, doing all the things.
Thank you to our teams atVertosa and Wolfmeyer and, of
course, our producer, eric Brzee.
If you enjoyed this episode,please drop a review on Apple
Podcasts, on Spotify or whereveryou listen.
(57:39):
Yeah, like, subscribe, do allthe things.
Just share high spirits, keepeveryone's spirits high and it
will make all the spirits higher.
As always, folks stay curious,stay informed and keep your
spirits high Until next time.
That's the show.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.