October 2, 2025 • 53 mins
We trace how a headline-grabbing CBD moment collided with the realities of cannabis policy, then dive into Levia’s rare founder buyback to unpack brand trust, dual-channel strategy, and what it takes to build consistent, safe, and truly approachable THC beverages. The conversation blends practical deal lessons, product innovation, and senior-focused education with a call for higher standards across hemp and regulated markets.
• CBD spotlight from a US president and stock whiplash
• Schedule III signaling and partisan calculus
• Why hemp access reframed consumer entry points
• Levia’s effects-led positioning and clear seltzer choice
• Vertical control, CO2 extraction, and consistency
• Deal timeline, regulatory gauntlet, and post-exit roles
• Hemp’s shift from loophole to long-term strategy
• Mechanics and patience behind the buyback from a public company
• Innovation pipeline: flavorless high-dose drops and minors
• Seniors, harm reduction, and physician-backed education
• Dual-channel plan: regulated and hemp together
• Raising standards: batch testing, responsible placement, COAs
• Brand trust as the true moat in beverages
• Advocacy on incarceration, equity, and consumer safety
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High Spirits is brought to you by Vertosa and Wolf Meyer.
Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
EricRogers (00:00):
That concept of brand trust really hasn't taken
off in cannabis or hemp yet,right?
We're still at that sort ofinfancy where, like, it's really
hard to get productconsistency, you know, across
markets, even because you'resourcing the supply chain in the
regulated market in each eachand every market.
So the hemp opportunity givesyou that ability to sort of
(00:20):
smooth out some of thoseinconsistencies and create one
product that can reach a largeraudience.
And I think that once you dothat, you need to really take
advantage of that platform tocommunicate with your consumers
to educate them, um, not justabout your own product, but
about what they're getting intoin general.
BenLarson (00:42):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 107 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson, and with me asalways is Anna Ray Grabstein,
recording Tuesday, September30th, 2025.
And we've got an incredibleshow for you today.
We have Eric and Kristen Rogersin the buyback story of Levia.
(01:04):
Really exciting.
It's a kind of first of itskind.
The founder is coming backafter exiting to a multi-state
operator and buying back thebrand.
But before we dive into that,Anna Ray, happy harvest season.
Tomorrow's Croptober.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (01:20):
Yes, tomorrow.
Can you believe it?
It's October already.
So wild.
You know, harvest season for meis two things.
It's cannabis and pumpkins.
I love pumpkins and pumpkinpatch season.
So this is this is gearing upto be a good year for me.
BenLarson (01:38):
Do you do you have pumpkins patching?
Do you do the giant pumpkins,little pumpkins?
Like what kind of pumpkins arewe talking about?
AnnaRaeGrabstein (01:44):
Well, I did grow a couple of pumpkin plants
in my backyard, but mostly Ijust enjoy going to all of the
pumpkin patches locally uh inSonoma County where I live.
Or if I go and visit my goodfriends in upstate New York,
they've got like a real awesomepumpkin patch scene going.
I just think pumpkin patchesare this really cool kind of
(02:06):
small business farm agriculturalcelebration kind of event
mashup that people really bringtheir best for a good time.
BenLarson (02:16):
Okay, I didn't know what I was gonna talk about
today, but you're bringing backmy past.
And okay, so when I was incollege, I was dating uh this
country girl and her familylived a country girl?
AnnaRaeGrabstein (02:27):
What does that mean?
BenLarson (02:28):
She's from the country.
I don't know, she like had farmstuff like goats and like
pumpkins and stuff.
So we're getting there.
Her dad was into growing giantpumpkins and like the bass
massive ones, the ones that goto the state fair and go on the
scale type of thing.
I'm new to this, you know.
I'm I'm generally kind of likea city kid, suburb kid,
whatever.
(02:48):
And anyways, it was October oneseason.
He's like, Oh, got this thinggoing at at the it wasn't the
state fair, it was like the ElkGrove City Fair or something
like that.
It was small, it was country.
Anyways, uh, we're out there,we're at this lake, and during
this pumpkin extravaganza, theydecided that they were gonna
(03:09):
hollow out these giant pumpkinsand roam across this pond.
And who got nominated to rowhis pumpkin but me?
And so I have rode a giantpumpkin like a canoe across a
lake and back, and his other uhpassion was fireworks, so he had
stuck like big old likesparklers into this pumpkin.
(03:31):
It was it was one of those corememories that I'm just like,
how did I get here?
But yeah, I did that.
And if anyone knows, a giantpumpkin is just as slippery on
the inside as the little onesthat you hollow out with your
kids.
It was gross, anyways.
That's my pumpkin story.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (03:47):
Pumpkins are definitely slippery on the
inside.
I don't know if if there's likesome sort of awkward and uh
inappropriate thing that we'rerubbing up against at that
point.
Yeah, so October, you know, inCalifornia, the it's been a cold
season overall.
And I think the outdoor and thegreenhouse growers have
(04:08):
struggled with there not beingenough heat and sun.
But other parts of the country,it sounds like are having a
stronger and less wet outdoorcannabis season.
So for all of those people outthere gearing up for harvest or
already cutting down theircrops, uh, we're excited for you
and excited to see what thisall turns into in this coming
year, whether it becomespre-rolls or distillant that
(04:30):
turns into other things or whoeven knows, or just flour for
jars.
It's it's like it's thebeginning of the next year.
BenLarson (04:36):
Bring on the flour, brush it down, put it in the
drinks, and let's go.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (04:41):
Let's go, let's drink it up.
So I'm excited to riff aboutthis news, which I first
received from you in a textmessage on Sunday, pretty close
after it happened.
Trump posted a video on TruthSocial.
It was a repost of a videocreated by the Commonwealth
Project.
And the video explains theendocannabinoid system and
(05:05):
endorses hemp-derived CBD forseniors.
It was quoted that hemp-derivedCBD is a game changer for
seniors, highlighting thebenefits of sleep and stress,
while even calling for Medicarecoverage and more physician
education.
There was an immediate rallythat followed yesterday on
cannabis stocks and even theCanadian ones.
(05:27):
And of note, the video'sremarks are strictly focused on
health-derived CBD withoutacknowledging the decades of
state-level medical cannabisprograms or THC-based therapies.
What do you think?
BenLarson (05:40):
Oh man, there's there's a lot to think.
But like I posted online, I Ithink any recognition that we
can get for the endocannabinoidsystem or cannabinoids in
general by a US president, in ofitself is is a great step
forward in a positive light inthis particular case.
The Commonwealth Project I hadnever personally heard of, but
(06:01):
shout out to Jamie Campbell forposting the fact that they were
one of the proponents advocatingfor Schedule Three.
So to jump to that, I do think,even though it wasn't
mentioned, there is a tie tocannabis.
And looking at it from amedical perspective, which the
Commonwealth Project does have alot of medical doctors
identified on their board, thatthere is some tie towards
(06:23):
medical cannabis reschedulingand the fact that hemp and
cannabis are the same plan.
So I like the kind of signalingin the direction that it's
going.
I also like the fact that it'sjust a pure playbook move to be
like stroking Trump's ego andbeing like, oh, the
groundbreaking legislation in2018, this was Trump, where
(06:45):
Biden and the Democrats failed.
I mean, it's classic.
It's like, it's like so like weall talked about the playbook
and then someone just executedon it and then it worked.
And it's like, oh, look atthat.
So, so kudos to the to theCommonwealth project.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (06:59):
Yeah, I I hear you, and I totally agree that
having anyone as prominent asDonald Trump talk publicly about
the endocannabinoid system isis huge and is a massive step
forward.
That said, I also have some hottakes.
Um, the way that I see this isthat we are staring at the
barrel of years of stalleddemocratic promises as as it
(07:23):
relates to cannabis policyreform.
And I have been thinking thelast couple of days since this
video about my own andpotentially the industry's
naivete to think that Trump wasgoing to grab onto the policies
that the Democrats offered to bethe thing that that was going
(07:43):
to carry forward reform from hisadministration.
And so now he's filling the gapwith a symbolic rebrand of hemp
as the clean version ofcannabis, almost like a Trojan
horse and uh that's coming in tosave the seniors.
I also found it reallyinteresting in a nod to the RFK
(08:04):
circle and the Make AmericaHealthy crowd when he
specifically said that doctorsaren't equipped to make
recommendations aroundcannabinoids, which which I
think also was a signal aboutconsumer products as opposed to
pharma in some ways, of liketake this into your own hands
(08:25):
and try it.
I I see this as like a as arepositioning, not really
policy.
It's like instead of sayingthat we're going to push forward
with banking or equity orrescheduling, he's grabbed the
lowest hanging fruit, which islegal CBD under the 2018 Farm
Bill.
So I hope that this is just thebeginning of a lot more
(08:49):
progressive, open policy comingfrom Trump.
And when I say progressive, Idon't mean democratic.
I just mean forward movingprogress as it relates to policy
beyond hemp derived CBD.
It's like we want cannabinoidswidely, we want rescheduling, we
want intoxicating hemp to beregulated.
(09:11):
We need we need a lot more thanwhat we've got right now.
BenLarson (09:14):
Yeah, I think we need to be very careful about how
excited we get for for a litanyof reasons.
But number one, it's like Trumpdoesn't like intoxicants
personally.
Like he he doesn't drink, hedoesn't smoke weed.
So it's like it really onlymentions CBD and and how that
helps out in whateverconversation, hemp or cannabis
(09:34):
you think it might, just don'tbe so certain, right?
So I don't know, watching thestocks pop, it's like it's it's
so predictable, it's sad.
They'll crash again.
So get out your money right nowif you can.
I guess on the positive side,it does bring more attention to
the conversations that areliterally happening right now,
might cause some pause foranyone that's just going for all
out bands.
(09:55):
Also, that has surfaced is thisthe comer letter, uh, which uh
has 27 signatures from withbipartisan support saying get
that ban language out of theappropriations bill.
It's already been taken out ofthe Senate bill, but now we're
trying to get it stripped out ofthe House bill.
I know that letter was gainingsignatures while we were in DC
(10:15):
with Kaba and the US HempRoundtable and WSWA.
And so it's kind of allhappening out at once, but to
your point, it's just you justdon't know with this president.
He also posted this weekend avideo about medbeds, uh, which
is crazy because they don'texist.
And it was literally like AI ofhim and and and Laura Trump
(10:37):
with things that they just neversaid.
And I'm like, what is thisworld where the president is
posting this video as well?
So it's just you have to takeit all with a grain of salt.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (10:46):
Yeah.
I I will say that the theletter, the comer letter that
you referenced that has the 27bipartisan signatures on it.
One thing that I do believethat a video like this coming
from Trump does is it doessignal to his followers where he
wants them to be.
And my guess is that with a fewmore days, if that letter
(11:10):
waited, it probably would havegotten more Republican
signatures this week than it hadlast week, just by virtue of
Trump making that statement.
Because he does that.
He he sends statements to hisfollowers, and then his
followers get in line and theyhelp him execute on his plan.
So if this is a signal to thelegislators that have the power
(11:35):
in Congress to get somethingdone, let's get something
fucking done.
BenLarson (11:40):
And if there's even a sliver of a chance that this
video gets out of Trump, you'rethe smartest, most beautiful,
most luxurious hair.
And we are so lucky to be inyour ethos of half legislation.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (11:53):
Yeah, you're you're so smart, Trump.
If if you if you can possibly,you know, move policy forward in
any way, we would name productsafter you if you'd like fit or
even like a special orange OGcushion.
If that's something thatappeals to you, we can go that
way too.
BenLarson (12:13):
We're gonna get canceled.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (12:14):
That's that's that's all that's it.
BenLarson (12:19):
We ended on 107.
That was a good run.
All right, let's go.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (12:24):
Okay, we have some exciting guests today.
So we're gonna stop talkingabout complicated politics and
instead talk about a reallyawesome comeback story.
We are excited to welcomeKristen and Eric Rogers with us
to the show today.
Kristen is the CEO and Eric isco-founder of Levia.
Kristen's a licensed therapistwho spent nearly 20 years
(12:47):
helping people, and she's alwaysbeen passionate about reducing
stigma around addiction andmental health.
And that perspective, combinedwith Eric's background in big
brand marketing, inspired themto create Levia back in 2017.
Levia officially launched itsbeverages into the market in
Massachusetts in 2021 and tookoff, quickly becoming a top
(13:08):
cannabis beverage brand beforebeing acquired by Air Wellness
in 2022.
This year, Kristen and Ericbought it back to keep shaping
its future on their own terms.
So, together, they bring a mixof wellness, creativity, and
business know-how, and we aregonna dive in and learn all
about it.
Welcome, Eric and Kristen.
KristinRogers (13:30):
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
BenLarson (13:32):
Yeah, we're we're we're stoked to have you guys.
You guys are celebrities incannabis, in cannabis beverage,
and man, way, way ahead of yourtime.
Like, really the only notablebeverage brand exit that I can
really think of that actuallyhad a dollar amount affixed to
it, and years before this hugewave of beverage came through.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (13:53):
Yeah, your guys' acquisition really
inspired a ton of other brandsthat I think that they were
gonna be able to also scale andfind an exit.
BenLarson (14:02):
Yeah, did you just shut the door behind you?
Like, what happened?
You've you've been likeliterally the only brand that I
can really think of, with theexception of maybe the Agrify
Seniorita deal, but that waskind of a very quiet deal that
was done.
How did that how did thathappen?
Like you guys grew likewildfire in Massachusetts and
then got swooped up uh at a 60million dollar valuation, I
(14:22):
believe the number was.
EricRogers (14:23):
Yeah, it was uh quite the roller coaster ride,
as you can imagine.
Um, you know, as we werebuilding the facility that we're
still grateful to be sittingin, um, we realized uh that we
were building a rocket ship.
Um, you know, as we got ourfirst production batch going,
um, you know, our sales leadsold every drink before it even
got into a can.
Um, and we were launching inFebruary, and we are fortunate
(14:45):
enough to live in a state wherewe drink ice coffee 365 days a
year.
Um, so we didn't have you knowtremendous concern around a bit
launching a beverage in winter.
Um, but also, you know, we hadjust weathered a few years of
delays, uh, lots of zigzag-zagsthrough the regulatory process,
the local municipality process.
So we were just excited toreally get this brand into
(15:06):
market.
Um, and being the sort of firstdrinkable option in
Massachusetts on the East Coast,um we were really well
received.
And we're very fortunate tohave partnered uh with Brandon
Sear, who's our creativeresource, uh, who helped us
really bring life and shape tothe brand that he and I had been
working on, you know, for acouple of years at that point to
really create something that wefelt like could really resonate
(15:28):
with the consumer audience andand really make a product that
is approachable um for newconsumers and experienced
consumers alike.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (15:37):
But so did you go out to try to sell the
company once you started gettingtraction in market?
Did Air approach you?
What was that what was thatearly process like, the deal?
EricRogers (15:47):
Yeah, no, we did not uh go looking uh to be sold.
Um, you know, my personalopinion, which is opinion of
one, was that we were still atthe starting gate.
We had, you know, started afire, um, but we were really at
the beginning of what I feltlike was the opportunity for for
the brand that we created withthe goals that we had set out um
you know to accomplish.
But um word was out, um, and itwasn't just just air, uh, it
(16:11):
was multiple uh nationaloperators that were reaching
out, wanted tours, wanted to seewhat we were doing and and
understand better why we wereresonating with consumers.
So once it moved beyond sort ofa single conversation into
almost a half a dozenconversations, um, you know, we
really had to take uh time tothink about our fiduciary
responsibility to the investorswho had been leaning in since
(16:33):
2018 when we started fundraisingand the long road to get to
market and what was right forthe brand, which our personal
goals was always for the brandto exist.
So to be able to partner withan operator who already had
licenses in other states,already had real estate in the
other in those states, and wecould bring sort of the process
format to really throw gasolineon a fire, it was an opportunity
(16:54):
we really couldn't um pass upuh in the moment.
BenLarson (16:58):
So interesting.
So you weren't the only brandon the market at the time.
You know, there's other notablebrands that had grown up
through other state markets andand gained traction.
What was it about the Leviastory being in Massachusetts
that really drove the interestuh of purchasers?
Because I didn't hear fromother brands that they were
(17:19):
getting a lot of knocks on thedoor.
So there was something that youguys were doing that were
making you stand apart, and itwasn't in the most obvious
state.
So, like, can you unpack thatone that part a little bit?
EricRogers (17:30):
I can try.
I don't know that anybody willreally ever truly have that
answer.
Um, but you know, the we uh wewere a group, we were a team
that really used all the delaysand sort of zigs and zags that
we were uh experiencing alongthe way to our benefit.
How could we improve the brand?
How could we improve theproduct?
Um, so for us, a few thingswere really important to us.
One, uh, how do we simplifysort of the cannabis uh
(17:53):
marketplace for consumers?
Um, we've generally thoughtthat the strain name game was
really getting confusing forconsumers since they didn't
necessarily know what thateffect was going to be.
So we were one of the fewbrands that really led with
being effects led.
We wanted to simplify that bycreating three distinct effects
for consumers that very muchladdered up against that sativa,
hybrid, and indica effects, butbut branded, right?
(18:16):
To create those clear andpredictable outcomes for
consumers.
The other thing that was reallyimportant for us was it being a
clear beverage.
Most of the cannabis beverageson the market um had more of a
cloudy appearance to it.
Um we had no idea how we weregoing to accomplish that, but we
were able to find a third partyum that really enabled us to
deliver on that goal.
So it was sort of a combinationof factors that were coming
(18:37):
together as we were witheringthrough those delays to really
tighten up the brand story, thebrand look and feel, um, so that
there were clear andpredictable outcomes and reasons
for consumers to want to leanin.
And then I think we also had aton of luck.
Uh 2018 was the summer of WhiteClaw.
Prior to that, everyone waslike, What do you mean you're
gonna drink your cannabis drink?
Right, no one had this idea ofa spiked seltzer.
(18:59):
And you know, by the end of2019, going into 2020, it was
over a four billion dollarcategory just in spiked seltzers
at that point.
So you saw that explosivegrowth.
So it gave us those points ofkeep going on the seltzer, keep
going on something that's rootedin simple and all natural
ingredients, because we alsowanted to align with an audience
that was looking for thosethings.
A lot of the cannabis beverageson the market at the time, you
(19:22):
know, had a lot of sugar, hadhigh calorie content.
So we wanted to kind of alignwith the ethos of Massachusetts,
which is more of that activelifestyle, um, health-conscious
consumers, so that hey, we'rewe're giving you that
alternative, um, not only tosmoking and potentially high
calorie edibles, but alsoalcohol.
So that how do we start thatconversation overall?
So it was a you know that equalblend of a lot of hard work and
(19:45):
a little bit of luck um andtiming, all packaged up into
one.
Amazing.
KristinRogers (19:50):
I also I agree with the effects.
I think that that was a hugepiece of it.
But in addition, uh when Ithink about our biggest
competitors back then, we hadour own infrastructure, which
was a little bit different.
So there was great brands withgreat marketing, but we had our
own facility, we still make ourown oil, CO2 oil, we do our own
delivery.
And I think, you know, whenyou're looking at something like
(20:13):
that, it it it's it's morevaluable, right?
We had we had our own space andwe could do what we wanted
here.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (20:20):
And and I want to, I know people want to hear
about the buyback, but I alsothink that founders really want
to hear about the acquisitionprocess, how long it takes, and
then what happens post.
So I do think it makes sense totake a little more time.
I want to hear about how longthat deal took from when it
started to when it closed, andthen what happened to you guys
after?
Did you stay on?
(20:42):
Did you exit stage left?
What did that look like?
KristinRogers (20:46):
So we signed an LOI with AIR in August 2021, but
we did not get throughregulatory approval until
February 2022.
So that is how I mean uh that'show long the regulatory process
took to actually sell.
So we were sort of like in thisum, you know, middle of nowhere
(21:10):
for for six, seven months.
Um and while the state sort ofwent through everything and
decided what to do.
Um and I made the decision uhto stay with the brand.
It had always as a therapist,you know, and as someone who was
just really focused on how whatelse can I do to help the
(21:31):
stigma?
I cannot believe how far we'vecome.
It's been really fun to be partof that, you know, working with
Air to figure out, okay, howcan I help in that way?
How can I travel around and andyou know, help you in other
states and and really focus onwhat my dream had been all
along.
And that is to really helppeople understand that you don't
(21:54):
have to just eat a brownie andbe high for the next 24 hours.
You can actually have a goodexperience that's consistent
that you know we all know how wefeel after one glass of wine,
right?
Like we want people to feelthat way about cannabis as well,
so that we don't have the wedon't keep hearing these stories
about people having theseterrible experiences.
(22:15):
So, you know, that was my goalin staying with air.
EricRogers (22:19):
I took another path.
Uh I exited.
Um, I was very reluctant in inthe sale process.
I, you know, I sort of did itfor the the bigger vision of
what Levia uh could become.
Um and you know, candidly, thethe build process of Levia took
a long time and it had taken alot uh out of me.
Uh, you know, my mental healthhad definitely suffered, and it
(22:40):
was time for me to sort of takea step back and put my myself
and my family first, our familyfirst, um, during that time.
Um, so I exited, uh, spent sometime decompressing, um,
spending time with our threechildren who I love more than
anything, um, and thenultimately um, you know, ended
up partnering up with somepartners to create another
product manufacturing company,um, really focused on what we
(23:04):
believe to be the next wave ofthings to come in the cannabis
industry, which is socialconsumption.
And how could we start creatingproducts to support uh the
social consumption space thatare you know building off of the
sociability of seltzers, but inmore of the culinary side of
things.
So we put out an infused hotsauce that we partnered with a
classically trained chef to makeand really wanted to just get
(23:26):
people to start thinking aboutcannabis in different ways that
you can really integrate it intoyour lifestyle.
Um, and it's not you know allabout the smokables or just the
the clo the traditional gummyproducts that are very popular.
BenLarson (23:38):
So it's interesting, like you the six-month process.
Um, you know, I've seenfundraises take longer than
that.
So it it I it does seem long,like anything can happen in that
that six-month period.
Um, but you got through it, andand timing is interesting
because you said February of2022, you had gone deep into
(24:00):
Massachusetts.
I think you guys were numberone by far.
And now you're you're teamed upwith this this MSO, who had a
very beverage-focused strategyand access to a bunch of
different states.
And then at the same time, 2022was a big year for kind of when
THC beverage in the hempchannel started opening up later
in the year, uh, and Minnesotastarted going through its uh
(24:22):
this legalization process, it'sa major fork in the road.
And and I'm curious, whateverdirection you want to take this
leading up to, how did that playout for you guys?
Did you did you kind of startexpanding state to state under
the what that vision for thepartnership was?
And then like what washappening in your minds as as
the kind of hemp rollout washappening in parallel to that?
KristinRogers (24:42):
Ultimately, I think being part of a much
larger company that had putmillions and millions and
millions into the regulatedinfrastructure, and we were
still you know dealing withstates where you know people
hadn't really thought to bringhemp beverages in yet.
So for a long time, it wasn'treally on the regulated radar.
BenLarson (25:05):
Minnesota wasn't top of the list for regulated
markets, right?
Right.
KristinRogers (25:08):
Exactly, like you know, air just air doesn't have
a footprint there, and soreally the focus was okay, how
do we move, how do we light thisfire and get this in other
states?
And ultimately, uh we movedreally quickly into Arizona,
Nevada, Florida, and Ohio withum the drink drops.
So um we have a uh product thatwe call drink drops.
(25:33):
It's essentially a tincture,but meant it's water soluble, so
meant to make anything a Levia,right?
If you don't like seltzer, youknow, you can make your coffee a
Levia.
It's also great for peoplewhere that five milligrams is
not enough.
Um, so you can, you know, ifyou're a hundred milligram
person, you can make a hundredmilligram uh drink for yourself.
(25:54):
So in the overhead is obviouslya lot less.
There's no canning line,there's no, you know, there's
there's a lot that goes intobuilding the infrastructure for
an actual um beverage facility.
So that was a really easy wayto get into those states, and
that was really fun.
Um, we uh felt very quicklythat we did we had a lot of
(26:14):
brand equity in places that Ididn't realize, which was
awesome.
Um, so getting to be part ofthat was was really great um and
exciting.
And I think still hemp was sointeresting because of course we
kept up on it, and I of courseme, I'm looking at the research
and trying to figure out likewhat what's happening with this,
(26:35):
do we think it's gonna goanywhere?
And quite frankly, I keptthinking people were just gonna
shoot it down.
There was so much um, you know,a lot of propaganda still,
which we are we were alreadydealing with all the time.
So I think for for a while, uh,we just we weren't sure it was
gonna go anywhere.
Um but there are some reallygreat be brands out there that
(26:56):
worked really hard to breakthrough some of these barriers.
And I'm I'm really impressedwith some of the work that
they've done to sort of breakthe stigma and and show people
that you know, hemp doesn't haveto be scary.
You know, it's it's anotherplan.
It's it's also got greatresources too.
So, you know, along the way,there was sort of this very
slow, slow turning thoughtprocess about okay, hemp's here
(27:20):
to stay.
What are we gonna do now?
Um especially as the regulatedmarkets weren't doing quite so
well anymore.
Um, you know, there'sespecially for publicly traded
companies, um, you know, thestocks crashed with with all of
with all of these MSOs reallyquickly.
Um, and so figuring out whatother options was also really
(27:44):
important.
But again, everyone putmillions and millions and
millions of dollars into theregulated market.
So to try to get anyone to turnwas really difficult.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (27:57):
I I relate so much to what you're talking
about about this moment in timeof being like, is hemp really
gonna stick?
Like, how much can you reallybet on this?
Can can you think about nextyear even or just the next
month?
And and and highly manufacturedand brand driven products at
that time for me were hard towrap my head around in the hemp
(28:18):
space because I just wasn't surethey were gonna stick around.
And I know how much it takes tobuild a brand.
So I I totally relate to that.
I think you know, a couple offast forward a few years,
there's there's a very differentperspective that many of us uh
take on on what's happened andand where it might be going in
the future.
But so, okay, so Kristen, nowyou're inside an air, you're
(28:40):
working on this multi-stateexpansion within the construct
of the regulated markets thatair is in.
Uh and at some point you startthinking about buying back the
company, like what get us towhere we are today, and the
press release announcing thatyou guys are coming home and
buying back your company.
KristinRogers (29:00):
I mean, it really started with hemp, to be quite
honest.
Like it's it started with myfirm belief and Eric as well
that hemp's not going anywhere.
And if we if we wanted to becompetitive and keep this brand
alive, at some point we weregonna need to make that
decision.
So I am I am truly grateful.
Um, because you know, Air is ahuge company, but they talked to
(29:24):
me.
We had these greatconversations.
David Goubert, the CEO at thetime, was really great.
They let me into rooms where Ilearned more about retail and uh
you know compliance in otherstates, and it was really
exciting, and sort of talkingthrough the hemp opportunity um
was was a really big deal.
(29:45):
And it I can't even believe thedifference.
It was like a three monthdifference between no one's ever
gonna go hemp to purely goinglive with hemp.
And uh to to be fair, they theychanged.
Changed the landscape for a lotof us, um, looking to move into
that path, uh, which was veryexciting because a big MSO like
(30:10):
that doesn't make a decisionlike that lightly.
And so that was really wherethe conversation started about
buying it back.
EricRogers (30:17):
In a parallel path, um, I too was having the same
sort of thoughts that everybodywas having.
Is this a loophole?
Where is this going?
Is this legitimate?
What's happening?
And I was very intrigued bysome of these, you know,
non-regulated markets that wereall of a sudden touting having
social cannabis lounges.
Um, and Nashville kept being acity that kept popping, and they
(30:39):
had a half a dozen lounges.
And I was like, is this real?
What are they serving?
I don't understand.
And an interesting trip cametogether of advisors that I was
working with, other dispensaryowners, consumers, other
entrepreneurs.
And we went down on this trip.
There were like 15 of us thatended up uh converging on
Nashville specifically toexplore the hem market to
(31:01):
understand what this looks likein a more conservative location
and is this real?
And it really opened our eyesand evolved my thinking from
this is a loophole to this is anopportunity and one that we
really should focus on.
And it was coming back fromthat trip, which was really you
know, fall of 2023 at thatpoint, um, that Kristen and I
(31:22):
sort of partnered up on thefirst thing, which was this
pitch back to air of like, thisis the growth opportunity for
this brand.
Like now is the top to lean in.
Um, and as Kristen said, it wasreally not well received, but
it did peek that door open oflike, well, if we're not going
to go into hemp, what could thatbuyback look like?
Like, how could we potentiallysupport the brand to make sure
(31:42):
it doesn't, you know, it doesn'twither on the line.
So uh yeah, at the end of theday, it was this evolved
perspective on what the hempopportunity loophole, whatever
you want to call it, is um, thatreally helped shepherd this
opportunity and began thosethose discussions about the
future of the brand.
BenLarson (32:00):
So you just said fall of 2023.
And here we are sitting, is itfall officially?
It feels like fall, fall of2025.
Yeah, yeah.
So two years uh since then, isthat speak to the complexity of
buying back your company or justthe nature of decoupling in
(32:22):
this particular situation?
I've never bought back acompany before, so I'm I'm not
even sure of what the mechanicsare or anything.
So, what has happened over thelast two years and and why did
it take this long to kind ofarrive at where we are today?
KristinRogers (32:37):
Uh the complexity.
It it's it is very complex touh buy back a brand from a
publicly traded company, and thethe zigs and zags that that
took um were nuts, but we stayedthe course, the communication
was great, it just took a verylong time to sort of get to the
(32:58):
point where we had the seal, notto mention, you know, lots of
change in leadership.
Um, so again, I luck.
Like here we are.
There is a ton of luck to this.
The timing was great.
Um, the people, thank goodness,listen to me.
And they were willing tocontinue to work through this
(33:20):
for us, which was which wasreally great.
And I will forever be gratefulfor that.
BenLarson (33:24):
Oh man, leadership changes is like a new
conversation every time there'sa leadership change.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (33:29):
Yes.
BenLarson (33:30):
Oh man.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (33:30):
Oh in terms of the deal mechanics, is there
any tips or tools, people,bankers, lawyers that you could
call out that were key inhelping make this happen for
you?
KristinRogers (33:44):
We work with Foley Hoag, um, who has been
amazing, the Massachusettsfolks.
Um I there, I mean, they're allover the US.
Um, they have a huge cannabisum business.
And just really, I mean, ifyou're in Massachusetts or not,
if if you are in this position,I think having a team that truly
knows this industry, becauseevery state has its own very
(34:08):
strict regulations.
And if you do not have a teamof lawyers, especially that know
what they're doing in a stateregulated market, um, it's just
gonna tack on time.
So I I give them a ton ofcredit.
Uh, they were they were veryhelpful, they continue to be
very helpful as we work throughthis.
(34:28):
So very grateful to them.
BenLarson (34:30):
Oh, I didn't even think about that aspect.
It's like, you know, we weoperate in multiple states, so
we have multiple entities thathave to do like different
things.
And it's like if you're havingto unwind that, that you have to
map like all those differentoperations and and contracts.
That's that's complicated.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (34:48):
That's complicated.
Well, so you now regainedcontrol, the company is back in
your hands.
Uh and I want to hear aboutwhat the vision is.
Um in the prep call, Eric, youwere sharing that a lot of the
original team is still there inyour manufacturing site.
So it must feel like cominghome.
(35:09):
And uh, what do you what do youwant to do next now that you're
home?
EricRogers (35:13):
It does.
Um, we are very grateful forthe team that we have here in in
the building that have been,you know, the behind-the-scenes
support that have been makingthis brand go the entire time.
Um, you know, they are trulybest in the business in terms of
what they're able to do from uhevery process that we throw at
them.
Um, so a lot of it is gettingback to the basics, right?
(35:33):
Focusing on customers andserving their needs, both
dispensaries and consumers, tokind of get the brand back on
that growth trajectory.
So since we've been back, we'vereally been focused on sort of
realigning in the Massachusettsmarket, repositioning ourselves.
Uh, we did a brand refresh togive the brand a new look and
feel for the change in ownershipagain to align with sort of the
(35:56):
different sort of vibe we weregoing for with the brand now
that the market has evolved, thebrand has evolved, um, and the
opportunity has evolved.
So for us, really, it's a focuson innovation.
Um, how can we start to getback to uh creating new
products?
You know, we launched with twosets of products, the seltzers
and the drink drops, um, but wereally hadn't had a lot of
innovation or opportunity todiversify the products um
(36:19):
throughout the sort of processafter the acquisition.
So we're really focused ondeveloping new products.
We just launched a 1,000milligram version of our drink
drops that really is aflavorless execution.
It's kind of like a cannabiscocktail bitter, but with no
flavor, so that you really areempowered to make, you know,
whatever cannabis beverage youwant.
(36:40):
Um, and beyond that, um, youknow, as as we mentioned in the
prep call as well, we're bigbelievers in the whole plant and
all the cannabinoids, right?
We have a super critical CO2lab that we have on site.
So we're doing all of our ownextraction and processing um
into products.
So we want to continue to leanin on minor cannabinoids and
doing things that the market isalready now kind of ahead of us
(37:01):
on that were on our productproduct roadmap to begin with.
So we're really excited to sortof get back to that stage of
innovation of delivering youknow products that surprise and
delight consumers and really getthem excited about cannabis and
continue to show that you knowthat this isn't a scary
experience, that in this formatyou can drink half a drink and
you feel great.
(37:22):
Well, you can put it down.
You haven't committed to thatexperience after you popped a
couple of gummies and just sortof holding on for the ride.
So, you know, that this brandis a little bit different in the
way that we're trying toconnect with consumers and
really more broadly destigmatizethis this concept of cannabis
and connect with consumers in away that we don't know that that
we had the opportunity to inthe last couple of years.
BenLarson (37:43):
I think what's really special about you guys is just
the depth of the brand.
Like you're talking about youknow, extraction and and
infusion tech.
And it's like the there's veryfew beverage brands in the space
that are vertically integratedlike that, um, but not just from
an operational standpoint, likeKristen, when we were talking
earlier, you were just talkingabout how much you love the
(38:07):
advocacy and education side.
And I was also on an HBA callearlier, and and Chris was
saying that if you're anentrepreneur or a business a
brand owner in the space, youneed to be advocating, you need
to be educating.
And yes, I would just I wouldjust love to hear your your
perspective on that.
Like what what lights you up?
(38:28):
What are you excited to diveinto on that side of the
business?
KristinRogers (38:31):
Oh, I I can't believe how crazy the last four
years have been from you know,the first time I walked into a
senior center with other airfolks um to talk about the
plant.
And there was like two people.
Now we, you know, now we'refilling rooms with at these
senior centers where we'repeople are asking legitimate
(38:54):
questions.
We brought doctors, Dr.
Ben Kaplan.
Um, he's got uh a cannabishandbook for physicians, which
is amazing and actually a veryeasy read.
I'll put a little plug for thatright there.
We have people that can talk tothis, and there are insurance
companies that are talking aboutit, and to be able to say these
things to seniors who are nowtheir, you know, their kids,
(39:17):
their relatives are are teachingthem like, hey, you could sleep
better taking this gum aid, youcould sleep better doing this,
and you don't have to take uhprescription medication to do
this or that.
You know, obviously I feel it'svery important to listen to
your doctor, but at the sametime, we're in a whole new world
right now where people are opento it.
And the difference between, youknow, when we started this
(39:40):
journey to now is nuts.
It's so fun because people arepaying attention um and they're
they're really thinking aboutit.
And we haven't had a ton ofresearch in the US, um, but
there are a lot of othercountries that are doing
excellent research on opioid useum and harm reduction using
(40:00):
cannabis.
And I mean, we've uh every dayI hear stories about people
drinking less because they'redrinking our drinks or drinking
someone else's drinks.
I don't care.
I'm just psyched you're doingit.
You know, I'm I'm just soexcited every time I walk in a
room and people tell mesomething new that cannabis has
done for them.
So, you know, those are thedays I live for is being able to
(40:22):
have those conversations withpeople, even just right now
talking to you guys about this.
Like this does light me up.
This makes me so excitedbecause I'll tell you, 10 years
ago, we couldn't get people intorehab for opiates if they were
using cannabis to get off of it.
You know, we we people weredying because they couldn't use
cannabis in a way that waseffective for them.
(40:43):
And that's that was reallyhard.
And and I'm so proud of how farwe've come.
Um, and a lot of people workingtogether to make this happen.
So, you know, that isabsolutely um what gets me up
and out here every day.
EricRogers (40:58):
And we're really excited about the opportunity
because Kristen's very humble.
She's one of the few, if notthe only, person that is both
licensed by the Department ofMental Health and the Cannabis
Control Commission.
She spent over 15 years atnonprofits working on the front
line, helping folks with severemental illness and substance
abuse problems.
She lived this.
And it was through thatexperience that led to the
(41:19):
insights of why we even wentinto beverage to begin with.
So we're very passionate aboutthis in general.
And, you know, in in heradvocacy, she has an authority.
She has that experiencefirsthand.
She has treated folks who havebeen having severe substance
abuse disorders and seen theharm reduction that cannabis can
bring to that conversation.
(41:40):
Um, so we absolutely areleaning in on more research,
more advocacy, and you know,working with both high-risk uh
individuals and and communities,but also just educating the
broader, the broader set ofconsumers in the state of
Massachusetts and beyond of likewhat the plant benefits really
are and what that opportunityis.
So uh we're excited about that.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (42:01):
I I want to dig in to the intersection of
that destigmatization, publichealth and access, because
there's there's clearly a a ruband a contrast that that's
happening in terms of access toproducts through the regulated
(42:22):
cannabis uh channel, which iswhere you guys started, and
versus tons of access throughhealth channels and more
traditional outlets.
And and I think it's it's acomplex thing to reconcile.
And Kristen, as as a licensedmental health provider and
someone that's thinking aboutresearch, I don't want to put
words in your mouth, but I canassume that consumer safety is
(42:45):
something that that is importantto you and stability and
consistency is something thatmatters.
Uh and yet when you're alsotalking about seniors, I think
that one of the things that thehigh access pathway of the hemp
market has shown us is thatthere are a lot of consumers
that are interested in accessingcannabis that the dispensary
(43:08):
channel hasn't served.
So I'd love to hear yourperspective on that and how how
it's how it's uh gonna beexecuted within the company's
growth strategy next.
Are you sticking and regulated?
Are you all in on hemp?
KristinRogers (43:23):
Some of both both, definitely both.
I think it's really importantum that we still support,
especially in Massachusetts.
I mean, Massachusetts right nowum has uh outlet hemp.
You cannot sell hemp productsum in Massachusetts without a
license.
And but they're working throughthis uh in the legislature
right now, and I'm reallyhopeful that we hit a point
(43:46):
where uh they're one and thesame, right?
So we we can also work oneducating people on that.
It's been really hard.
The amount of sorry, the amountof um uh emails I get about
people asking if I can ship themregulated products because no
one really understands what thelaws are, what the differences
(44:08):
are.
And so, you know, I've jokedabout this becoming my
educational tour right now.
Like, how do we help people tounderstand?
And quite frankly, there is nota lot of difference.
There really isn't, especiallywhen you're just talking about
D9.
Um, so you know, but there area lot of great benefits to the
hemp plant as well, which isvery exciting.
(44:29):
So, how do we help consumersengage?
And that is all of our problem.
I think I have been veryuncomfortable with seeing um
products that look just likeours sitting next to like kids'
ice creams in in gas stations,right?
We need to be better, we needto support each other, like one
(44:51):
bad incident is gonna hurteveryone, you know.
So having solid products, goodtesting, and making sure we're
all kind of following, we're allfollowing the same rules, I
think is really important andthat we're all out there
advocating, you know, yes,there's always gonna be
competition, but right now we'reall in the same boat.
(45:13):
We need to work together toensure that that people
understand what this product is,what it can do, and that there
are ways to sort of safeguardaround some of the issues that
can come up with this.
So I'm really excited topartner with whomever, you know,
every beverage brand, you know,there's all sorts of reasons
(45:36):
for everyone to come together inthis, and that's really
exciting as well.
BenLarson (45:40):
I want to press on this a little bit more because
we talk a lot about this, andand you guys have a unique
perspective, right?
Where you've kind of beenwatching uh a lot of what's been
developing on the hemp side andsome of the benefits that it's
bringing, some of thelimitations.
You've lived through very muchwhat it is to be in the
(46:01):
regulated state model expansion.
And I'm guessing that'sprobably amplified for you
because how you've have valuedowning the supply chain in your
home state, but then going tonew states and having to work
through partnerships and havingkind of an arm's length to, you
know, whether it's boots on theground or or just a completely
(46:21):
different regulatoryenvironment.
What do we need to do?
What do we need to adapt fromeither side to really strengthen
how we educate, how weadvocate, and how we're kind of
accessing the consumer, youknow, through these products.
EricRogers (46:36):
So I think the beverage space specifically
created this like spotlight onlike what access to the plant
really was, right?
Because everyone's walking intoa liquor store and you see some
of these big national liquorchains leaning in on it, and all
of a sudden you have an end capwith THC drinks, right?
That's gonna pique yourinterest.
That's just gonna the generalcuriosity there.
(46:56):
So that's where I think likethe the rise and the growth of
THC beverages specifically umhas really created this
opportunity, but then it's sortof intersected with a low
barrier to entry of getting intoit, right?
Uh breweries are seeing adecline in alcohol sales,
they're looking at a way topreserve it or increase their
revenue overall, so they'releaning in to the THC beverage
(47:18):
uh space on the on the hempside.
Um, and what we've seen is someless sophisticated operators,
right?
They're not following throughon testing every batch.
They might test one batch, getresults back, and that's the
batch that's posted on theirwebsite in perpetuity at that
point.
So I think that collectively,what we've seen is a mini, you
know, wave of operators comeinto the uh come into the market
(47:39):
who kind of went a mile wideand an inch deep, just trying to
kind of capture on what thatopportunity is from a consumer
curiosity perspective ofconsumers leaning in and just
trying this new segment of themarket that's coming up.
But I think what we're seeingis very quickly is consumers are
are going to want and arecommanding more accountability
of the operators.
They want to know what's goinginto it, they want to have those
(48:01):
consistent, predictableexperiences.
So you need to start educatingconsumers around what they need
to look for, what they should belooking at from an information
perspective to protectthemselves, to protect their own
consumer experience overall.
So that's where I think youknow, some of the hemp beverage,
you know, associations, thehemp beverage alliance, and some
of these um groups that havebeen coming together are
(48:21):
critical to really come togetheras operators who want to raise
the tide for all ships withinthat hemp beverage space to hold
ourselves to a higher level ofaccountability so that when
consumers are looking to factcheck, when consumers are
looking to educate, that we'reall there with those resources,
with the information that theyneed to really build confidence
and trust amongst the consumerbase that you're that you're
(48:43):
you're partnering with areputable brand that you can
have confidence in, right?
Because that that concept ofbrand trust really hasn't taken
off in cannabis or hemp yet,right?
We're still at that sort ofinfancy where like it's really
hard to get product consistency,you know, across markets, even
because you're sourcing thesupply chain and the regulated
(49:03):
market in each each and everymarket.
So the hemp opportunity givesyou that that ability to sort of
smooth out some of thoseinconsistencies and create one
product that can reach a largeraudience.
And I think that once you dothat, you need to really take
advantage of that platform tocommunicate with your consumers,
to educate them, um, not justabout your own product, but
about what they're getting intoin general, right?
(49:25):
Um, and that's what we'rereally excited about.
BenLarson (49:27):
I love that.
Go deeper on integrity andeducation and rise the tide.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (49:34):
Yeah.
I also appreciate that youexplained really one of the key
benefits of hemp that servesconsumers in a way that we
haven't talked about that often.
But being able to streamlineyour supply chain into
manufacturing in one placedefinitely lets a company focus
on making sure that that supplychain is as buttoned up as it
(49:56):
possibly could be with this withthe highest level of
consistency and safety.
Whereas having to set up a newsupply chain in every state just
brings so many more partnersand ingredients and suppliers.
And I see it in regulatedcannabis all the time, that it's
one of the challenges of brandsexpanding because the the
(50:17):
quality that they have in onemarket, they aren't always able
to replicate uh in others.
And and the one really thebiggest loser in that scenario
is the consumer.
Um so yeah, thanks for bringingthat up.
Um it is time for our lastcall.
This this time has flown.
It's been a really greatconversation.
Thank you for being so open andsharing your story with us.
(50:40):
Uh, and if why don't we get alast call from each of you?
Um, a final message for ourlisteners, some advice, a call
to action, a closing thought.
The mic is yours.
KristinRogers (50:50):
Uh I I think in general, the cannabis industry
is a once-in-a-lifetimeopportunity.
There is no other otherindustry like it.
Um, but I think it's reallyimportant for all of us to also
not forget that we're dealingwith stigma.
There are people still in jailfor the things that we are
making money on right nowlegally.
And that is something that Ithink has been lost a bit along
(51:14):
the way.
And so making sure we arecontinuing to advocate for that
and making sure that we areworking towards creating genuine
products that people can trustis very important for all of us.
I mean, we're all gonna go outof business if we have, you
know, if we are not focusing onconsistency for consumers.
But in addition, you know,making sure that your brand also
(51:36):
stands for something else.
Um, because ultimately at theend of the day, I don't sleep
very well at night knowing thatthere are people still serving
time for the same thing that I'mdoing legally right now.
So I think folk making sure youfocus on that.
And even if you don't careabout that, your consumers do.
So, you know, making sure thatyou continue to push this
platform is something that I amreally excited about, and I hope
(51:59):
other people are as well.
EricRogers (52:01):
For me, I would say we're excited to be back and we
want to be that bridge to theconsumers.
You know, we have peoplereaching out all the time
through our website, and it'susually one of us that's getting
back to them at this point.
And we're so excited to sort ofspread the gospel of liquid to
lips, right?
We want to get the best casetasting cannabis beverages and
products into your hand thatempower you to create the
(52:22):
experience that you're lookingfor uh with confidence and
repeatability so that every timeyou get our products, that
you're you have extremeconfidence um that you're gonna
have the best cannabisexperience that you can.
That's clear and predictablefor you.
Um, and we'll do that throughcontinued education and advocacy
and focus on our supply chain.
But we're just super excited toget back to growth of this
(52:43):
brand.
Uh, we're grateful for thisopportunity, and we're really
excited to bring this brand tothe national heights that we
believe it can it can achieve.
BenLarson (52:51):
Love it.
I'm so glad we got to have thisconversation.
Kristen and Eric Rogers,co-founders and newest owners of
Levia.
Uh, congratulations, guys.
Thank you so much for spendingthe last hour with us.
It was it was really greathaving you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
All right, and thank you, allof you out there in LinkedIn and
(53:16):
internet and podcast world forengaging.
We love having theconversations online.
We love it.
If you can like it, subscribeit, share it, do all the things.
Thank you to our teams atVirtosa and Wolf Meyer, and of
course, our producer, EricRossetti.
As always, folks, stay curious,stay informed, and keep your
(53:38):
spirits high.
Until next time, that's theshow.
That concept of brand trust really hasn't taken
off in cannabis or hemp yet,right?
We're still at that sort ofinfancy where, like, it's really
hard to get productconsistency, you know, across
markets, even because you'resourcing the supply chain in the
regulated market in each eachand every market.
So the hemp opportunity givesyou that ability to sort of
(00:20):
smooth out some of thoseinconsistencies and create one
product that can reach a largeraudience.
And I think that once you dothat, you need to really take
advantage of that platform tocommunicate with your consumers
to educate them, um, not justabout your own product, but
about what they're getting intoin general.
BenLarson (00:42):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 107 of High
Spirits.
I'm Ben Larson, and with me asalways is Anna Ray Grabstein,
recording Tuesday, September30th, 2025.
And we've got an incredibleshow for you today.
We have Eric and Kristen Rogersin the buyback story of Levia.
(01:04):
Really exciting.
It's a kind of first of itskind.
The founder is coming backafter exiting to a multi-state
operator and buying back thebrand.
But before we dive into that,Anna Ray, happy harvest season.
Tomorrow's Croptober.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (01:20):
Yes, tomorrow.
Can you believe it?
It's October already.
So wild.
You know, harvest season for meis two things.
It's cannabis and pumpkins.
I love pumpkins and pumpkinpatch season.
So this is this is gearing upto be a good year for me.
BenLarson (01:38):
Do you do you have pumpkins patching?
Do you do the giant pumpkins,little pumpkins?
Like what kind of pumpkins arewe talking about?
AnnaRaeGrabstein (01:44):
Well, I did grow a couple of pumpkin plants
in my backyard, but mostly Ijust enjoy going to all of the
pumpkin patches locally uh inSonoma County where I live.
Or if I go and visit my goodfriends in upstate New York,
they've got like a real awesomepumpkin patch scene going.
I just think pumpkin patchesare this really cool kind of
(02:06):
small business farm agriculturalcelebration kind of event
mashup that people really bringtheir best for a good time.
BenLarson (02:16):
Okay, I didn't know what I was gonna talk about
today, but you're bringing backmy past.
And okay, so when I was incollege, I was dating uh this
country girl and her familylived a country girl?
AnnaRaeGrabstein (02:27):
What does that mean?
BenLarson (02:28):
She's from the country.
I don't know, she like had farmstuff like goats and like
pumpkins and stuff.
So we're getting there.
Her dad was into growing giantpumpkins and like the bass
massive ones, the ones that goto the state fair and go on the
scale type of thing.
I'm new to this, you know.
I'm I'm generally kind of likea city kid, suburb kid,
whatever.
(02:48):
And anyways, it was October oneseason.
He's like, Oh, got this thinggoing at at the it wasn't the
state fair, it was like the ElkGrove City Fair or something
like that.
It was small, it was country.
Anyways, uh, we're out there,we're at this lake, and during
this pumpkin extravaganza, theydecided that they were gonna
(03:09):
hollow out these giant pumpkinsand roam across this pond.
And who got nominated to rowhis pumpkin but me?
And so I have rode a giantpumpkin like a canoe across a
lake and back, and his other uhpassion was fireworks, so he had
stuck like big old likesparklers into this pumpkin.
(03:31):
It was it was one of those corememories that I'm just like,
how did I get here?
But yeah, I did that.
And if anyone knows, a giantpumpkin is just as slippery on
the inside as the little onesthat you hollow out with your
kids.
It was gross, anyways.
That's my pumpkin story.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (03:47):
Pumpkins are definitely slippery on the
inside.
I don't know if if there's likesome sort of awkward and uh
inappropriate thing that we'rerubbing up against at that
point.
Yeah, so October, you know, inCalifornia, the it's been a cold
season overall.
And I think the outdoor and thegreenhouse growers have
(04:08):
struggled with there not beingenough heat and sun.
But other parts of the country,it sounds like are having a
stronger and less wet outdoorcannabis season.
So for all of those people outthere gearing up for harvest or
already cutting down theircrops, uh, we're excited for you
and excited to see what thisall turns into in this coming
year, whether it becomespre-rolls or distillant that
(04:30):
turns into other things or whoeven knows, or just flour for
jars.
It's it's like it's thebeginning of the next year.
BenLarson (04:36):
Bring on the flour, brush it down, put it in the
drinks, and let's go.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (04:41):
Let's go, let's drink it up.
So I'm excited to riff aboutthis news, which I first
received from you in a textmessage on Sunday, pretty close
after it happened.
Trump posted a video on TruthSocial.
It was a repost of a videocreated by the Commonwealth
Project.
And the video explains theendocannabinoid system and
(05:05):
endorses hemp-derived CBD forseniors.
It was quoted that hemp-derivedCBD is a game changer for
seniors, highlighting thebenefits of sleep and stress,
while even calling for Medicarecoverage and more physician
education.
There was an immediate rallythat followed yesterday on
cannabis stocks and even theCanadian ones.
(05:27):
And of note, the video'sremarks are strictly focused on
health-derived CBD withoutacknowledging the decades of
state-level medical cannabisprograms or THC-based therapies.
What do you think?
BenLarson (05:40):
Oh man, there's there's a lot to think.
But like I posted online, I Ithink any recognition that we
can get for the endocannabinoidsystem or cannabinoids in
general by a US president, in ofitself is is a great step
forward in a positive light inthis particular case.
The Commonwealth Project I hadnever personally heard of, but
(06:01):
shout out to Jamie Campbell forposting the fact that they were
one of the proponents advocatingfor Schedule Three.
So to jump to that, I do think,even though it wasn't
mentioned, there is a tie tocannabis.
And looking at it from amedical perspective, which the
Commonwealth Project does have alot of medical doctors
identified on their board, thatthere is some tie towards
(06:23):
medical cannabis reschedulingand the fact that hemp and
cannabis are the same plan.
So I like the kind of signalingin the direction that it's
going.
I also like the fact that it'sjust a pure playbook move to be
like stroking Trump's ego andbeing like, oh, the
groundbreaking legislation in2018, this was Trump, where
(06:45):
Biden and the Democrats failed.
I mean, it's classic.
It's like, it's like so like weall talked about the playbook
and then someone just executedon it and then it worked.
And it's like, oh, look atthat.
So, so kudos to the to theCommonwealth project.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (06:59):
Yeah, I I hear you, and I totally agree that
having anyone as prominent asDonald Trump talk publicly about
the endocannabinoid system isis huge and is a massive step
forward.
That said, I also have some hottakes.
Um, the way that I see this isthat we are staring at the
barrel of years of stalleddemocratic promises as as it
(07:23):
relates to cannabis policyreform.
And I have been thinking thelast couple of days since this
video about my own andpotentially the industry's
naivete to think that Trump wasgoing to grab onto the policies
that the Democrats offered to bethe thing that that was going
(07:43):
to carry forward reform from hisadministration.
And so now he's filling the gapwith a symbolic rebrand of hemp
as the clean version ofcannabis, almost like a Trojan
horse and uh that's coming in tosave the seniors.
I also found it reallyinteresting in a nod to the RFK
(08:04):
circle and the Make AmericaHealthy crowd when he
specifically said that doctorsaren't equipped to make
recommendations aroundcannabinoids, which which I
think also was a signal aboutconsumer products as opposed to
pharma in some ways, of liketake this into your own hands
(08:25):
and try it.
I I see this as like a as arepositioning, not really
policy.
It's like instead of sayingthat we're going to push forward
with banking or equity orrescheduling, he's grabbed the
lowest hanging fruit, which islegal CBD under the 2018 Farm
Bill.
So I hope that this is just thebeginning of a lot more
(08:49):
progressive, open policy comingfrom Trump.
And when I say progressive, Idon't mean democratic.
I just mean forward movingprogress as it relates to policy
beyond hemp derived CBD.
It's like we want cannabinoidswidely, we want rescheduling, we
want intoxicating hemp to beregulated.
(09:11):
We need we need a lot more thanwhat we've got right now.
BenLarson (09:14):
Yeah, I think we need to be very careful about how
excited we get for for a litanyof reasons.
But number one, it's like Trumpdoesn't like intoxicants
personally.
Like he he doesn't drink, hedoesn't smoke weed.
So it's like it really onlymentions CBD and and how that
helps out in whateverconversation, hemp or cannabis
(09:34):
you think it might, just don'tbe so certain, right?
So I don't know, watching thestocks pop, it's like it's it's
so predictable, it's sad.
They'll crash again.
So get out your money right nowif you can.
I guess on the positive side,it does bring more attention to
the conversations that areliterally happening right now,
might cause some pause foranyone that's just going for all
out bands.
(09:55):
Also, that has surfaced is thisthe comer letter, uh, which uh
has 27 signatures from withbipartisan support saying get
that ban language out of theappropriations bill.
It's already been taken out ofthe Senate bill, but now we're
trying to get it stripped out ofthe House bill.
I know that letter was gainingsignatures while we were in DC
(10:15):
with Kaba and the US HempRoundtable and WSWA.
And so it's kind of allhappening out at once, but to
your point, it's just you justdon't know with this president.
He also posted this weekend avideo about medbeds, uh, which
is crazy because they don'texist.
And it was literally like AI ofhim and and and Laura Trump
(10:37):
with things that they just neversaid.
And I'm like, what is thisworld where the president is
posting this video as well?
So it's just you have to takeit all with a grain of salt.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (10:46):
Yeah.
I I will say that the theletter, the comer letter that
you referenced that has the 27bipartisan signatures on it.
One thing that I do believethat a video like this coming
from Trump does is it doessignal to his followers where he
wants them to be.
And my guess is that with a fewmore days, if that letter
(11:10):
waited, it probably would havegotten more Republican
signatures this week than it hadlast week, just by virtue of
Trump making that statement.
Because he does that.
He he sends statements to hisfollowers, and then his
followers get in line and theyhelp him execute on his plan.
So if this is a signal to thelegislators that have the power
(11:35):
in Congress to get somethingdone, let's get something
fucking done.
BenLarson (11:40):
And if there's even a sliver of a chance that this
video gets out of Trump, you'rethe smartest, most beautiful,
most luxurious hair.
And we are so lucky to be inyour ethos of half legislation.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (11:53):
Yeah, you're you're so smart, Trump.
If if you if you can possibly,you know, move policy forward in
any way, we would name productsafter you if you'd like fit or
even like a special orange OGcushion.
If that's something thatappeals to you, we can go that
way too.
BenLarson (12:13):
We're gonna get canceled.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (12:14):
That's that's that's all that's it.
BenLarson (12:19):
We ended on 107.
That was a good run.
All right, let's go.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (12:24):
Okay, we have some exciting guests today.
So we're gonna stop talkingabout complicated politics and
instead talk about a reallyawesome comeback story.
We are excited to welcomeKristen and Eric Rogers with us
to the show today.
Kristen is the CEO and Eric isco-founder of Levia.
Kristen's a licensed therapistwho spent nearly 20 years
(12:47):
helping people, and she's alwaysbeen passionate about reducing
stigma around addiction andmental health.
And that perspective, combinedwith Eric's background in big
brand marketing, inspired themto create Levia back in 2017.
Levia officially launched itsbeverages into the market in
Massachusetts in 2021 and tookoff, quickly becoming a top
(13:08):
cannabis beverage brand beforebeing acquired by Air Wellness
in 2022.
This year, Kristen and Ericbought it back to keep shaping
its future on their own terms.
So, together, they bring a mixof wellness, creativity, and
business know-how, and we aregonna dive in and learn all
about it.
Welcome, Eric and Kristen.
KristinRogers (13:30):
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
BenLarson (13:32):
Yeah, we're we're we're stoked to have you guys.
You guys are celebrities incannabis, in cannabis beverage,
and man, way, way ahead of yourtime.
Like, really the only notablebeverage brand exit that I can
really think of that actuallyhad a dollar amount affixed to
it, and years before this hugewave of beverage came through.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (13:53):
Yeah, your guys' acquisition really
inspired a ton of other brandsthat I think that they were
gonna be able to also scale andfind an exit.
BenLarson (14:02):
Yeah, did you just shut the door behind you?
Like, what happened?
You've you've been likeliterally the only brand that I
can really think of, with theexception of maybe the Agrify
Seniorita deal, but that waskind of a very quiet deal that
was done.
How did that how did thathappen?
Like you guys grew likewildfire in Massachusetts and
then got swooped up uh at a 60million dollar valuation, I
(14:22):
believe the number was.
EricRogers (14:23):
Yeah, it was uh quite the roller coaster ride,
as you can imagine.
Um, you know, as we werebuilding the facility that we're
still grateful to be sittingin, um, we realized uh that we
were building a rocket ship.
Um, you know, as we got ourfirst production batch going,
um, you know, our sales leadsold every drink before it even
got into a can.
Um, and we were launching inFebruary, and we are fortunate
(14:45):
enough to live in a state wherewe drink ice coffee 365 days a
year.
Um, so we didn't have you knowtremendous concern around a bit
launching a beverage in winter.
Um, but also, you know, we hadjust weathered a few years of
delays, uh, lots of zigzag-zagsthrough the regulatory process,
the local municipality process.
So we were just excited toreally get this brand into
(15:06):
market.
Um, and being the sort of firstdrinkable option in
Massachusetts on the East Coast,um we were really well
received.
And we're very fortunate tohave partnered uh with Brandon
Sear, who's our creativeresource, uh, who helped us
really bring life and shape tothe brand that he and I had been
working on, you know, for acouple of years at that point to
really create something that wefelt like could really resonate
(15:28):
with the consumer audience andand really make a product that
is approachable um for newconsumers and experienced
consumers alike.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (15:37):
But so did you go out to try to sell the
company once you started gettingtraction in market?
Did Air approach you?
What was that what was thatearly process like, the deal?
EricRogers (15:47):
Yeah, no, we did not uh go looking uh to be sold.
Um, you know, my personalopinion, which is opinion of
one, was that we were still atthe starting gate.
We had, you know, started afire, um, but we were really at
the beginning of what I feltlike was the opportunity for for
the brand that we created withthe goals that we had set out um
you know to accomplish.
But um word was out, um, and itwasn't just just air, uh, it
(16:11):
was multiple uh nationaloperators that were reaching
out, wanted tours, wanted to seewhat we were doing and and
understand better why we wereresonating with consumers.
So once it moved beyond sort ofa single conversation into
almost a half a dozenconversations, um, you know, we
really had to take uh time tothink about our fiduciary
responsibility to the investorswho had been leaning in since
(16:33):
2018 when we started fundraisingand the long road to get to
market and what was right forthe brand, which our personal
goals was always for the brandto exist.
So to be able to partner withan operator who already had
licenses in other states,already had real estate in the
other in those states, and wecould bring sort of the process
format to really throw gasolineon a fire, it was an opportunity
(16:54):
we really couldn't um pass upuh in the moment.
BenLarson (16:58):
So interesting.
So you weren't the only brandon the market at the time.
You know, there's other notablebrands that had grown up
through other state markets andand gained traction.
What was it about the Leviastory being in Massachusetts
that really drove the interestuh of purchasers?
Because I didn't hear fromother brands that they were
(17:19):
getting a lot of knocks on thedoor.
So there was something that youguys were doing that were
making you stand apart, and itwasn't in the most obvious
state.
So, like, can you unpack thatone that part a little bit?
EricRogers (17:30):
I can try.
I don't know that anybody willreally ever truly have that
answer.
Um, but you know, the we uh wewere a group, we were a team
that really used all the delaysand sort of zigs and zags that
we were uh experiencing alongthe way to our benefit.
How could we improve the brand?
How could we improve theproduct?
Um, so for us, a few thingswere really important to us.
One, uh, how do we simplifysort of the cannabis uh
(17:53):
marketplace for consumers?
Um, we've generally thoughtthat the strain name game was
really getting confusing forconsumers since they didn't
necessarily know what thateffect was going to be.
So we were one of the fewbrands that really led with
being effects led.
We wanted to simplify that bycreating three distinct effects
for consumers that very muchladdered up against that sativa,
hybrid, and indica effects, butbut branded, right?
(18:16):
To create those clear andpredictable outcomes for
consumers.
The other thing that was reallyimportant for us was it being a
clear beverage.
Most of the cannabis beverageson the market um had more of a
cloudy appearance to it.
Um we had no idea how we weregoing to accomplish that, but we
were able to find a third partyum that really enabled us to
deliver on that goal.
So it was sort of a combinationof factors that were coming
(18:37):
together as we were witheringthrough those delays to really
tighten up the brand story, thebrand look and feel, um, so that
there were clear andpredictable outcomes and reasons
for consumers to want to leanin.
And then I think we also had aton of luck.
Uh 2018 was the summer of WhiteClaw.
Prior to that, everyone waslike, What do you mean you're
gonna drink your cannabis drink?
Right, no one had this idea ofa spiked seltzer.
(18:59):
And you know, by the end of2019, going into 2020, it was
over a four billion dollarcategory just in spiked seltzers
at that point.
So you saw that explosivegrowth.
So it gave us those points ofkeep going on the seltzer, keep
going on something that's rootedin simple and all natural
ingredients, because we alsowanted to align with an audience
that was looking for thosethings.
A lot of the cannabis beverageson the market at the time, you
(19:22):
know, had a lot of sugar, hadhigh calorie content.
So we wanted to kind of alignwith the ethos of Massachusetts,
which is more of that activelifestyle, um, health-conscious
consumers, so that hey, we'rewe're giving you that
alternative, um, not only tosmoking and potentially high
calorie edibles, but alsoalcohol.
So that how do we start thatconversation overall?
So it was a you know that equalblend of a lot of hard work and
(19:45):
a little bit of luck um andtiming, all packaged up into
one.
Amazing.
KristinRogers (19:50):
I also I agree with the effects.
I think that that was a hugepiece of it.
But in addition, uh when Ithink about our biggest
competitors back then, we hadour own infrastructure, which
was a little bit different.
So there was great brands withgreat marketing, but we had our
own facility, we still make ourown oil, CO2 oil, we do our own
delivery.
And I think, you know, whenyou're looking at something like
(20:13):
that, it it it's it's morevaluable, right?
We had we had our own space andwe could do what we wanted
here.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (20:20):
And and I want to, I know people want to hear
about the buyback, but I alsothink that founders really want
to hear about the acquisitionprocess, how long it takes, and
then what happens post.
So I do think it makes sense totake a little more time.
I want to hear about how longthat deal took from when it
started to when it closed, andthen what happened to you guys
after?
Did you stay on?
(20:42):
Did you exit stage left?
What did that look like?
KristinRogers (20:46):
So we signed an LOI with AIR in August 2021, but
we did not get throughregulatory approval until
February 2022.
So that is how I mean uh that'show long the regulatory process
took to actually sell.
So we were sort of like in thisum, you know, middle of nowhere
(21:10):
for for six, seven months.
Um and while the state sort ofwent through everything and
decided what to do.
Um and I made the decision uhto stay with the brand.
It had always as a therapist,you know, and as someone who was
just really focused on how whatelse can I do to help the
(21:31):
stigma?
I cannot believe how far we'vecome.
It's been really fun to be partof that, you know, working with
Air to figure out, okay, howcan I help in that way?
How can I travel around and andyou know, help you in other
states and and really focus onwhat my dream had been all
along.
And that is to really helppeople understand that you don't
(21:54):
have to just eat a brownie andbe high for the next 24 hours.
You can actually have a goodexperience that's consistent
that you know we all know how wefeel after one glass of wine,
right?
Like we want people to feelthat way about cannabis as well,
so that we don't have the wedon't keep hearing these stories
about people having theseterrible experiences.
(22:15):
So, you know, that was my goalin staying with air.
EricRogers (22:19):
I took another path.
Uh I exited.
Um, I was very reluctant in inthe sale process.
I, you know, I sort of did itfor the the bigger vision of
what Levia uh could become.
Um and you know, candidly, thethe build process of Levia took
a long time and it had taken alot uh out of me.
Uh, you know, my mental healthhad definitely suffered, and it
(22:40):
was time for me to sort of takea step back and put my myself
and my family first, our familyfirst, um, during that time.
Um, so I exited, uh, spent sometime decompressing, um,
spending time with our threechildren who I love more than
anything, um, and thenultimately um, you know, ended
up partnering up with somepartners to create another
product manufacturing company,um, really focused on what we
(23:04):
believe to be the next wave ofthings to come in the cannabis
industry, which is socialconsumption.
And how could we start creatingproducts to support uh the
social consumption space thatare you know building off of the
sociability of seltzers, but inmore of the culinary side of
things.
So we put out an infused hotsauce that we partnered with a
classically trained chef to makeand really wanted to just get
(23:26):
people to start thinking aboutcannabis in different ways that
you can really integrate it intoyour lifestyle.
Um, and it's not you know allabout the smokables or just the
the clo the traditional gummyproducts that are very popular.
BenLarson (23:38):
So it's interesting, like you the six-month process.
Um, you know, I've seenfundraises take longer than
that.
So it it I it does seem long,like anything can happen in that
that six-month period.
Um, but you got through it, andand timing is interesting
because you said February of2022, you had gone deep into
(24:00):
Massachusetts.
I think you guys were numberone by far.
And now you're you're teamed upwith this this MSO, who had a
very beverage-focused strategyand access to a bunch of
different states.
And then at the same time, 2022was a big year for kind of when
THC beverage in the hempchannel started opening up later
in the year, uh, and Minnesotastarted going through its uh
(24:22):
this legalization process, it'sa major fork in the road.
And and I'm curious, whateverdirection you want to take this
leading up to, how did that playout for you guys?
Did you did you kind of startexpanding state to state under
the what that vision for thepartnership was?
And then like what washappening in your minds as as
the kind of hemp rollout washappening in parallel to that?
KristinRogers (24:42):
Ultimately, I think being part of a much
larger company that had putmillions and millions and
millions into the regulatedinfrastructure, and we were
still you know dealing withstates where you know people
hadn't really thought to bringhemp beverages in yet.
So for a long time, it wasn'treally on the regulated radar.
BenLarson (25:05):
Minnesota wasn't top of the list for regulated
markets, right?
Right.
KristinRogers (25:08):
Exactly, like you know, air just air doesn't have
a footprint there, and soreally the focus was okay, how
do we move, how do we light thisfire and get this in other
states?
And ultimately, uh we movedreally quickly into Arizona,
Nevada, Florida, and Ohio withum the drink drops.
So um we have a uh product thatwe call drink drops.
(25:33):
It's essentially a tincture,but meant it's water soluble, so
meant to make anything a Levia,right?
If you don't like seltzer, youknow, you can make your coffee a
Levia.
It's also great for peoplewhere that five milligrams is
not enough.
Um, so you can, you know, ifyou're a hundred milligram
person, you can make a hundredmilligram uh drink for yourself.
(25:54):
So in the overhead is obviouslya lot less.
There's no canning line,there's no, you know, there's
there's a lot that goes intobuilding the infrastructure for
an actual um beverage facility.
So that was a really easy wayto get into those states, and
that was really fun.
Um, we uh felt very quicklythat we did we had a lot of
(26:14):
brand equity in places that Ididn't realize, which was
awesome.
Um, so getting to be part ofthat was was really great um and
exciting.
And I think still hemp was sointeresting because of course we
kept up on it, and I of courseme, I'm looking at the research
and trying to figure out likewhat what's happening with this,
(26:35):
do we think it's gonna goanywhere?
And quite frankly, I keptthinking people were just gonna
shoot it down.
There was so much um, you know,a lot of propaganda still,
which we are we were alreadydealing with all the time.
So I think for for a while, uh,we just we weren't sure it was
gonna go anywhere.
Um but there are some reallygreat be brands out there that
(26:56):
worked really hard to breakthrough some of these barriers.
And I'm I'm really impressedwith some of the work that
they've done to sort of breakthe stigma and and show people
that you know, hemp doesn't haveto be scary.
You know, it's it's anotherplan.
It's it's also got greatresources too.
So, you know, along the way,there was sort of this very
slow, slow turning thoughtprocess about okay, hemp's here
(27:20):
to stay.
What are we gonna do now?
Um especially as the regulatedmarkets weren't doing quite so
well anymore.
Um, you know, there'sespecially for publicly traded
companies, um, you know, thestocks crashed with with all of
with all of these MSOs reallyquickly.
Um, and so figuring out whatother options was also really
(27:44):
important.
But again, everyone putmillions and millions and
millions of dollars into theregulated market.
So to try to get anyone to turnwas really difficult.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (27:57):
I I relate so much to what you're talking
about about this moment in timeof being like, is hemp really
gonna stick?
Like, how much can you reallybet on this?
Can can you think about nextyear even or just the next
month?
And and and highly manufacturedand brand driven products at
that time for me were hard towrap my head around in the hemp
(28:18):
space because I just wasn't surethey were gonna stick around.
And I know how much it takes tobuild a brand.
So I I totally relate to that.
I think you know, a couple offast forward a few years,
there's there's a very differentperspective that many of us uh
take on on what's happened andand where it might be going in
the future.
But so, okay, so Kristen, nowyou're inside an air, you're
(28:40):
working on this multi-stateexpansion within the construct
of the regulated markets thatair is in.
Uh and at some point you startthinking about buying back the
company, like what get us towhere we are today, and the
press release announcing thatyou guys are coming home and
buying back your company.
KristinRogers (29:00):
I mean, it really started with hemp, to be quite
honest.
Like it's it started with myfirm belief and Eric as well
that hemp's not going anywhere.
And if we if we wanted to becompetitive and keep this brand
alive, at some point we weregonna need to make that
decision.
So I am I am truly grateful.
Um, because you know, Air is ahuge company, but they talked to
(29:24):
me.
We had these greatconversations.
David Goubert, the CEO at thetime, was really great.
They let me into rooms where Ilearned more about retail and uh
you know compliance in otherstates, and it was really
exciting, and sort of talkingthrough the hemp opportunity um
was was a really big deal.
(29:45):
And it I can't even believe thedifference.
It was like a three monthdifference between no one's ever
gonna go hemp to purely goinglive with hemp.
And uh to to be fair, they theychanged.
Changed the landscape for a lotof us, um, looking to move into
that path, uh, which was veryexciting because a big MSO like
(30:10):
that doesn't make a decisionlike that lightly.
And so that was really wherethe conversation started about
buying it back.
EricRogers (30:17):
In a parallel path, um, I too was having the same
sort of thoughts that everybodywas having.
Is this a loophole?
Where is this going?
Is this legitimate?
What's happening?
And I was very intrigued bysome of these, you know,
non-regulated markets that wereall of a sudden touting having
social cannabis lounges.
Um, and Nashville kept being acity that kept popping, and they
(30:39):
had a half a dozen lounges.
And I was like, is this real?
What are they serving?
I don't understand.
And an interesting trip cametogether of advisors that I was
working with, other dispensaryowners, consumers, other
entrepreneurs.
And we went down on this trip.
There were like 15 of us thatended up uh converging on
Nashville specifically toexplore the hem market to
(31:01):
understand what this looks likein a more conservative location
and is this real?
And it really opened our eyesand evolved my thinking from
this is a loophole to this is anopportunity and one that we
really should focus on.
And it was coming back fromthat trip, which was really you
know, fall of 2023 at thatpoint, um, that Kristen and I
(31:22):
sort of partnered up on thefirst thing, which was this
pitch back to air of like, thisis the growth opportunity for
this brand.
Like now is the top to lean in.
Um, and as Kristen said, it wasreally not well received, but
it did peek that door open oflike, well, if we're not going
to go into hemp, what could thatbuyback look like?
Like, how could we potentiallysupport the brand to make sure
(31:42):
it doesn't, you know, it doesn'twither on the line.
So uh yeah, at the end of theday, it was this evolved
perspective on what the hempopportunity loophole, whatever
you want to call it, is um, thatreally helped shepherd this
opportunity and began thosethose discussions about the
future of the brand.
BenLarson (32:00):
So you just said fall of 2023.
And here we are sitting, is itfall officially?
It feels like fall, fall of2025.
Yeah, yeah.
So two years uh since then, isthat speak to the complexity of
buying back your company or justthe nature of decoupling in
(32:22):
this particular situation?
I've never bought back acompany before, so I'm I'm not
even sure of what the mechanicsare or anything.
So, what has happened over thelast two years and and why did
it take this long to kind ofarrive at where we are today?
KristinRogers (32:37):
Uh the complexity.
It it's it is very complex touh buy back a brand from a
publicly traded company, and thethe zigs and zags that that
took um were nuts, but we stayedthe course, the communication
was great, it just took a verylong time to sort of get to the
(32:58):
point where we had the seal, notto mention, you know, lots of
change in leadership.
Um, so again, I luck.
Like here we are.
There is a ton of luck to this.
The timing was great.
Um, the people, thank goodness,listen to me.
And they were willing tocontinue to work through this
(33:20):
for us, which was which wasreally great.
And I will forever be gratefulfor that.
BenLarson (33:24):
Oh man, leadership changes is like a new
conversation every time there'sa leadership change.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (33:29):
Yes.
BenLarson (33:30):
Oh man.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (33:30):
Oh in terms of the deal mechanics, is there
any tips or tools, people,bankers, lawyers that you could
call out that were key inhelping make this happen for
you?
KristinRogers (33:44):
We work with Foley Hoag, um, who has been
amazing, the Massachusettsfolks.
Um I there, I mean, they're allover the US.
Um, they have a huge cannabisum business.
And just really, I mean, ifyou're in Massachusetts or not,
if if you are in this position,I think having a team that truly
knows this industry, becauseevery state has its own very
(34:08):
strict regulations.
And if you do not have a teamof lawyers, especially that know
what they're doing in a stateregulated market, um, it's just
gonna tack on time.
So I I give them a ton ofcredit.
Uh, they were they were veryhelpful, they continue to be
very helpful as we work throughthis.
(34:28):
So very grateful to them.
BenLarson (34:30):
Oh, I didn't even think about that aspect.
It's like, you know, we weoperate in multiple states, so
we have multiple entities thathave to do like different
things.
And it's like if you're havingto unwind that, that you have to
map like all those differentoperations and and contracts.
That's that's complicated.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (34:48):
That's complicated.
Well, so you now regainedcontrol, the company is back in
your hands.
Uh and I want to hear aboutwhat the vision is.
Um in the prep call, Eric, youwere sharing that a lot of the
original team is still there inyour manufacturing site.
So it must feel like cominghome.
(35:09):
And uh, what do you what do youwant to do next now that you're
home?
EricRogers (35:13):
It does.
Um, we are very grateful forthe team that we have here in in
the building that have been,you know, the behind-the-scenes
support that have been makingthis brand go the entire time.
Um, you know, they are trulybest in the business in terms of
what they're able to do from uhevery process that we throw at
them.
Um, so a lot of it is gettingback to the basics, right?
(35:33):
Focusing on customers andserving their needs, both
dispensaries and consumers, tokind of get the brand back on
that growth trajectory.
So since we've been back, we'vereally been focused on sort of
realigning in the Massachusettsmarket, repositioning ourselves.
Uh, we did a brand refresh togive the brand a new look and
feel for the change in ownershipagain to align with sort of the
(35:56):
different sort of vibe we weregoing for with the brand now
that the market has evolved, thebrand has evolved, um, and the
opportunity has evolved.
So for us, really, it's a focuson innovation.
Um, how can we start to getback to uh creating new
products?
You know, we launched with twosets of products, the seltzers
and the drink drops, um, but wereally hadn't had a lot of
innovation or opportunity todiversify the products um
(36:19):
throughout the sort of processafter the acquisition.
So we're really focused ondeveloping new products.
We just launched a 1,000milligram version of our drink
drops that really is aflavorless execution.
It's kind of like a cannabiscocktail bitter, but with no
flavor, so that you really areempowered to make, you know,
whatever cannabis beverage youwant.
(36:40):
Um, and beyond that, um, youknow, as as we mentioned in the
prep call as well, we're bigbelievers in the whole plant and
all the cannabinoids, right?
We have a super critical CO2lab that we have on site.
So we're doing all of our ownextraction and processing um
into products.
So we want to continue to leanin on minor cannabinoids and
doing things that the market isalready now kind of ahead of us
(37:01):
on that were on our productproduct roadmap to begin with.
So we're really excited to sortof get back to that stage of
innovation of delivering youknow products that surprise and
delight consumers and really getthem excited about cannabis and
continue to show that you knowthat this isn't a scary
experience, that in this formatyou can drink half a drink and
you feel great.
(37:22):
Well, you can put it down.
You haven't committed to thatexperience after you popped a
couple of gummies and just sortof holding on for the ride.
So, you know, that this brandis a little bit different in the
way that we're trying toconnect with consumers and
really more broadly destigmatizethis this concept of cannabis
and connect with consumers in away that we don't know that that
we had the opportunity to inthe last couple of years.
BenLarson (37:43):
I think what's really special about you guys is just
the depth of the brand.
Like you're talking about youknow, extraction and and
infusion tech.
And it's like the there's veryfew beverage brands in the space
that are vertically integratedlike that, um, but not just from
an operational standpoint, likeKristen, when we were talking
earlier, you were just talkingabout how much you love the
(38:07):
advocacy and education side.
And I was also on an HBA callearlier, and and Chris was
saying that if you're anentrepreneur or a business a
brand owner in the space, youneed to be advocating, you need
to be educating.
And yes, I would just I wouldjust love to hear your your
perspective on that.
Like what what lights you up?
(38:28):
What are you excited to diveinto on that side of the
business?
KristinRogers (38:31):
Oh, I I can't believe how crazy the last four
years have been from you know,the first time I walked into a
senior center with other airfolks um to talk about the
plant.
And there was like two people.
Now we, you know, now we'refilling rooms with at these
senior centers where we'repeople are asking legitimate
(38:54):
questions.
We brought doctors, Dr.
Ben Kaplan.
Um, he's got uh a cannabishandbook for physicians, which
is amazing and actually a veryeasy read.
I'll put a little plug for thatright there.
We have people that can talk tothis, and there are insurance
companies that are talking aboutit, and to be able to say these
things to seniors who are nowtheir, you know, their kids,
(39:17):
their relatives are are teachingthem like, hey, you could sleep
better taking this gum aid, youcould sleep better doing this,
and you don't have to take uhprescription medication to do
this or that.
You know, obviously I feel it'svery important to listen to
your doctor, but at the sametime, we're in a whole new world
right now where people are opento it.
And the difference between, youknow, when we started this
(39:40):
journey to now is nuts.
It's so fun because people arepaying attention um and they're
they're really thinking aboutit.
And we haven't had a ton ofresearch in the US, um, but
there are a lot of othercountries that are doing
excellent research on opioid useum and harm reduction using
(40:00):
cannabis.
And I mean, we've uh every dayI hear stories about people
drinking less because they'redrinking our drinks or drinking
someone else's drinks.
I don't care.
I'm just psyched you're doingit.
You know, I'm I'm just soexcited every time I walk in a
room and people tell mesomething new that cannabis has
done for them.
So, you know, those are thedays I live for is being able to
(40:22):
have those conversations withpeople, even just right now
talking to you guys about this.
Like this does light me up.
This makes me so excitedbecause I'll tell you, 10 years
ago, we couldn't get people intorehab for opiates if they were
using cannabis to get off of it.
You know, we we people weredying because they couldn't use
cannabis in a way that waseffective for them.
(40:43):
And that's that was reallyhard.
And and I'm so proud of how farwe've come.
Um, and a lot of people workingtogether to make this happen.
So, you know, that isabsolutely um what gets me up
and out here every day.
EricRogers (40:58):
And we're really excited about the opportunity
because Kristen's very humble.
She's one of the few, if notthe only, person that is both
licensed by the Department ofMental Health and the Cannabis
Control Commission.
She spent over 15 years atnonprofits working on the front
line, helping folks with severemental illness and substance
abuse problems.
She lived this.
And it was through thatexperience that led to the
(41:19):
insights of why we even wentinto beverage to begin with.
So we're very passionate aboutthis in general.
And, you know, in in heradvocacy, she has an authority.
She has that experiencefirsthand.
She has treated folks who havebeen having severe substance
abuse disorders and seen theharm reduction that cannabis can
bring to that conversation.
(41:40):
Um, so we absolutely areleaning in on more research,
more advocacy, and you know,working with both high-risk uh
individuals and and communities,but also just educating the
broader, the broader set ofconsumers in the state of
Massachusetts and beyond of likewhat the plant benefits really
are and what that opportunityis.
So uh we're excited about that.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (42:01):
I I want to dig in to the intersection of
that destigmatization, publichealth and access, because
there's there's clearly a a ruband a contrast that that's
happening in terms of access toproducts through the regulated
(42:22):
cannabis uh channel, which iswhere you guys started, and
versus tons of access throughhealth channels and more
traditional outlets.
And and I think it's it's acomplex thing to reconcile.
And Kristen, as as a licensedmental health provider and
someone that's thinking aboutresearch, I don't want to put
words in your mouth, but I canassume that consumer safety is
(42:45):
something that that is importantto you and stability and
consistency is something thatmatters.
Uh and yet when you're alsotalking about seniors, I think
that one of the things that thehigh access pathway of the hemp
market has shown us is thatthere are a lot of consumers
that are interested in accessingcannabis that the dispensary
(43:08):
channel hasn't served.
So I'd love to hear yourperspective on that and how how
it's how it's uh gonna beexecuted within the company's
growth strategy next.
Are you sticking and regulated?
Are you all in on hemp?
KristinRogers (43:23):
Some of both both, definitely both.
I think it's really importantum that we still support,
especially in Massachusetts.
I mean, Massachusetts right nowum has uh outlet hemp.
You cannot sell hemp productsum in Massachusetts without a
license.
And but they're working throughthis uh in the legislature
right now, and I'm reallyhopeful that we hit a point
(43:46):
where uh they're one and thesame, right?
So we we can also work oneducating people on that.
It's been really hard.
The amount of sorry, the amountof um uh emails I get about
people asking if I can ship themregulated products because no
one really understands what thelaws are, what the differences
(44:08):
are.
And so, you know, I've jokedabout this becoming my
educational tour right now.
Like, how do we help people tounderstand?
And quite frankly, there is nota lot of difference.
There really isn't, especiallywhen you're just talking about
D9.
Um, so you know, but there area lot of great benefits to the
hemp plant as well, which isvery exciting.
(44:29):
So, how do we help consumersengage?
And that is all of our problem.
I think I have been veryuncomfortable with seeing um
products that look just likeours sitting next to like kids'
ice creams in in gas stations,right?
We need to be better, we needto support each other, like one
(44:51):
bad incident is gonna hurteveryone, you know.
So having solid products, goodtesting, and making sure we're
all kind of following, we're allfollowing the same rules, I
think is really important andthat we're all out there
advocating, you know, yes,there's always gonna be
competition, but right now we'reall in the same boat.
(45:13):
We need to work together toensure that that people
understand what this product is,what it can do, and that there
are ways to sort of safeguardaround some of the issues that
can come up with this.
So I'm really excited topartner with whomever, you know,
every beverage brand, you know,there's all sorts of reasons
(45:36):
for everyone to come together inthis, and that's really
exciting as well.
BenLarson (45:40):
I want to press on this a little bit more because
we talk a lot about this, andand you guys have a unique
perspective, right?
Where you've kind of beenwatching uh a lot of what's been
developing on the hemp side andsome of the benefits that it's
bringing, some of thelimitations.
You've lived through very muchwhat it is to be in the
(46:01):
regulated state model expansion.
And I'm guessing that'sprobably amplified for you
because how you've have valuedowning the supply chain in your
home state, but then going tonew states and having to work
through partnerships and havingkind of an arm's length to, you
know, whether it's boots on theground or or just a completely
(46:21):
different regulatoryenvironment.
What do we need to do?
What do we need to adapt fromeither side to really strengthen
how we educate, how weadvocate, and how we're kind of
accessing the consumer, youknow, through these products.
EricRogers (46:36):
So I think the beverage space specifically
created this like spotlight onlike what access to the plant
really was, right?
Because everyone's walking intoa liquor store and you see some
of these big national liquorchains leaning in on it, and all
of a sudden you have an end capwith THC drinks, right?
That's gonna pique yourinterest.
That's just gonna the generalcuriosity there.
(46:56):
So that's where I think likethe the rise and the growth of
THC beverages specifically umhas really created this
opportunity, but then it's sortof intersected with a low
barrier to entry of getting intoit, right?
Uh breweries are seeing adecline in alcohol sales,
they're looking at a way topreserve it or increase their
revenue overall, so they'releaning in to the THC beverage
(47:18):
uh space on the on the hempside.
Um, and what we've seen is someless sophisticated operators,
right?
They're not following throughon testing every batch.
They might test one batch, getresults back, and that's the
batch that's posted on theirwebsite in perpetuity at that
point.
So I think that collectively,what we've seen is a mini, you
know, wave of operators comeinto the uh come into the market
(47:39):
who kind of went a mile wideand an inch deep, just trying to
kind of capture on what thatopportunity is from a consumer
curiosity perspective ofconsumers leaning in and just
trying this new segment of themarket that's coming up.
But I think what we're seeingis very quickly is consumers are
are going to want and arecommanding more accountability
of the operators.
They want to know what's goinginto it, they want to have those
(48:01):
consistent, predictableexperiences.
So you need to start educatingconsumers around what they need
to look for, what they should belooking at from an information
perspective to protectthemselves, to protect their own
consumer experience overall.
So that's where I think youknow, some of the hemp beverage,
you know, associations, thehemp beverage alliance, and some
of these um groups that havebeen coming together are
(48:21):
critical to really come togetheras operators who want to raise
the tide for all ships withinthat hemp beverage space to hold
ourselves to a higher level ofaccountability so that when
consumers are looking to factcheck, when consumers are
looking to educate, that we'reall there with those resources,
with the information that theyneed to really build confidence
and trust amongst the consumerbase that you're that you're
(48:43):
you're partnering with areputable brand that you can
have confidence in, right?
Because that that concept ofbrand trust really hasn't taken
off in cannabis or hemp yet,right?
We're still at that sort ofinfancy where like it's really
hard to get product consistency,you know, across markets, even
because you're sourcing thesupply chain and the regulated
(49:03):
market in each each and everymarket.
So the hemp opportunity givesyou that that ability to sort of
smooth out some of thoseinconsistencies and create one
product that can reach a largeraudience.
And I think that once you dothat, you need to really take
advantage of that platform tocommunicate with your consumers,
to educate them, um, not justabout your own product, but
about what they're getting intoin general, right?
(49:25):
Um, and that's what we'rereally excited about.
BenLarson (49:27):
I love that.
Go deeper on integrity andeducation and rise the tide.
AnnaRaeGrabstein (49:34):
Yeah.
I also appreciate that youexplained really one of the key
benefits of hemp that servesconsumers in a way that we
haven't talked about that often.
But being able to streamlineyour supply chain into
manufacturing in one placedefinitely lets a company focus
on making sure that that supplychain is as buttoned up as it
(49:56):
possibly could be with this withthe highest level of
consistency and safety.
Whereas having to set up a newsupply chain in every state just
brings so many more partnersand ingredients and suppliers.
And I see it in regulatedcannabis all the time, that it's
one of the challenges of brandsexpanding because the the
(50:17):
quality that they have in onemarket, they aren't always able
to replicate uh in others.
And and the one really thebiggest loser in that scenario
is the consumer.
Um so yeah, thanks for bringingthat up.
Um it is time for our lastcall.
This this time has flown.
It's been a really greatconversation.
Thank you for being so open andsharing your story with us.
(50:40):
Uh, and if why don't we get alast call from each of you?
Um, a final message for ourlisteners, some advice, a call
to action, a closing thought.
The mic is yours.
KristinRogers (50:50):
Uh I I think in general, the cannabis industry
is a once-in-a-lifetimeopportunity.
There is no other otherindustry like it.
Um, but I think it's reallyimportant for all of us to also
not forget that we're dealingwith stigma.
There are people still in jailfor the things that we are
making money on right nowlegally.
And that is something that Ithink has been lost a bit along
(51:14):
the way.
And so making sure we arecontinuing to advocate for that
and making sure that we areworking towards creating genuine
products that people can trustis very important for all of us.
I mean, we're all gonna go outof business if we have, you
know, if we are not focusing onconsistency for consumers.
But in addition, you know,making sure that your brand also
(51:36):
stands for something else.
Um, because ultimately at theend of the day, I don't sleep
very well at night knowing thatthere are people still serving
time for the same thing that I'mdoing legally right now.
So I think folk making sure youfocus on that.
And even if you don't careabout that, your consumers do.
So, you know, making sure thatyou continue to push this
platform is something that I amreally excited about, and I hope
(51:59):
other people are as well.
EricRogers (52:01):
For me, I would say we're excited to be back and we
want to be that bridge to theconsumers.
You know, we have peoplereaching out all the time
through our website, and it'susually one of us that's getting
back to them at this point.
And we're so excited to sort ofspread the gospel of liquid to
lips, right?
We want to get the best casetasting cannabis beverages and
products into your hand thatempower you to create the
(52:22):
experience that you're lookingfor uh with confidence and
repeatability so that every timeyou get our products, that
you're you have extremeconfidence um that you're gonna
have the best cannabisexperience that you can.
That's clear and predictablefor you.
Um, and we'll do that throughcontinued education and advocacy
and focus on our supply chain.
But we're just super excited toget back to growth of this
(52:43):
brand.
Uh, we're grateful for thisopportunity, and we're really
excited to bring this brand tothe national heights that we
believe it can it can achieve.
BenLarson (52:51):
Love it.
I'm so glad we got to have thisconversation.
Kristen and Eric Rogers,co-founders and newest owners of
Levia.
Uh, congratulations, guys.
Thank you so much for spendingthe last hour with us.
It was it was really greathaving you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
All right, and thank you, allof you out there in LinkedIn and
(53:16):
internet and podcast world forengaging.
We love having theconversations online.
We love it.
If you can like it, subscribeit, share it, do all the things.
Thank you to our teams atVirtosa and Wolf Meyer, and of
course, our producer, EricRossetti.
As always, folks, stay curious,stay informed, and keep your
(53:38):
spirits high.
Until next time, that's theshow.
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