October 27, 2025 • 53 mins
We unpack why cannabis retail still can’t run on normal card rails, how debit and alternative payments increase average tickets, and what federal legality would actually change. Aubrey Amatelli of PayRio shares data, pitfalls, and a playbook for safer, smoother checkout.
• why Visa and Mastercard rules block standard cannabis card payments
• cashless ATM and debit as the current stable rails
• 34% average ticket lift moving from cash to debit
• 22–27% additional lift when adding credit options
• safety risks of cash-heavy operations and theft exposure
• stigma reinforced by nonstandard checkout experiences
• differences between hemp and cannabis processing
• COAs, 0.3% THC threshold, and bank compliance for hemp e‑com
• MATCH list risks and website monitoring
• state of banking access for cannabis vs hemp
• why SAFE or Schedule III won’t fully normalize payments
• founder journey, brand choices, and community support
• call to support women entrepreneurs across the cannabis space
If you've enjoyed this episode, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your show
--
High Spirits is brought to you by Vertosa and Wolf Meyer.
Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.
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Remember to always stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aubrey Amatelli (00:00):
When you go from cash to debit, you're
growing about 34% your averageticket.
And then when you add credit,you're growing another 22 to
27%.
Sarah Falvo (00:16):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 110 of High
Spirits.
I'm Sarah Falvo, Director ofMarketing at Vertosa.
Don't worry, Ben and Anna Raywill be joining us shortly.
They've asked me to hop on themic to share some exciting news
about the event we've all beenwaiting for.
Our third annual High SpiritsMorning Mixer at MJ Viz.
(00:38):
This event is our way of sayingthank you to our incredible
community, our listeners,podcast guests, cannabis
colleagues, and friends.
We can't wait to celebrate withyou.
So mark your calendars forThursday, December 4th.
It's the perfect way to kickoff your MJ Viz day, catching up
with friends, talking shop, andsipping on some coffee and
(00:59):
maybe a cannabis beverage orfour in our beautiful bungalow
suite at the Cosmopolitan.
Keep an eye out for more eventdetails soon, and trust me, this
is one you won't want to miss.
And without further ado, AnnaRay and Ben.
Ben Larson (01:15):
Amazing.
All right.
I have a replacement.
This is great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:21):
Eric, this is so cool.
I'm so glad that you could joinus this morning for this intro.
I feel so grateful.
Sarah Falvo (01:28):
Thank you for having me.
I've been a fan since day one.
Obviously, you guys know.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:34):
Well, you've been planning the morning mixer
since long before you gotsnagged by Ben and hired by
Virtosa.
And um, you've done such anincredible job.
And it's been so fun to get tobuild this community event with
you over the years.
You've been the mastermindbehind all of the perfect
details.
So thank you.
Ben Larson (01:53):
Yeah, I think the the biggest feedback we got from
the last two years was that wewanted more space and maybe a
little bit of airflow.
So we got both, and we'rereally excited about that.
Sarah Falvo (02:04):
Yes, we have the coolest bungalow suite at the
Cosmo, few different levels,some outdoor space.
So, yes, we we listened to thecommunity and uh we adjusted.
So it's a good problem to have.
Ben Larson (02:19):
Awesome.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:20):
Totally.
I I think it's so strange howin Vegas almost no hotel lets
you open a window anywhere.
It's like, and it's common inlots of hotels, especially
high-rises, but we had to go tothe Cosmo this year so we could
get some fresh air at our party.
Like, come on, we all deservesome fresh air, right?
Uh, I'm super excited.
(02:40):
Me too.
Ben Larson (02:41):
Awesome.
Well, Sarah, thank you so much.
Uh, you did a great job.
And yeah, you can sub inanytime.
Sarah Falvo (02:48):
Absolutely.
I always love chatting with youon or off camera, the both of
you.
So thank you very much forletting me come and talk about
our fun event.
And I'll talk to you guyslater.
Ben Larson (02:58):
All right, see ya.
Sarah Falvo (02:58):
Bye, Sarah.
Ben Larson (03:00):
Alrighty, on with the show, as they say.
And Ray, how's your week going?
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:04):
My week's been great.
You know, I I had to go backthis morning, actually, because
I have just been doing a ton of2026 planning with all my
clients, and I'm just in thismode.
And this morning I was like, Iread something that Ben posted
on LinkedIn over the weekend,and I feel like it's really
speaking to what I'm feeling inthe world right now.
And like deep in a very longrant of yours.
(03:28):
Not that maybe not a rant, Ithink you call it a weekend
musing or something.
Oh yes, oh yes.
Ben Larson (03:33):
There's usually spin up when I'm like at the gym and
like all the juices areflowing, and I'm like, I just
gotta get stuff out.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:38):
And so well, deep deep in there, like towards
the bottom, you said dreamboldly, reverse engineer
relentlessly, and welcome thefriction.
And it's like completely sumsup where I'm at in my world
right now.
I'm just in this, like, thinkabout everything that could be,
but then also like truly thinkabout the mechanics of how you
(04:01):
get there.
And um, it's like a crazy brainexercise time.
I feel like I'm just I'm justin the brain exercise season and
it feels really good.
And I'm excited to get to beworking on kind of execution
related to visioning in allkinds of ways.
Ben Larson (04:16):
So I love that for you.
It is it is such it, it is sucha fun space to be in where you
truly just allow yourself todream about what the future
looks like.
And this is what makes greatentrepreneurs, right?
Like a great entrepreneur seesa future that maybe other people
can't see so clearly, and thenthey reverse engineer it, or
they build a great team that canhelp them reverse engineer it.
(04:37):
And of course, those plans areusually long and bold, and they
change.
So the friction is an importantpart because pivots happen,
feedback happens, people waysmarter than you come along and
they give you new intel.
It's just this constant effortof listening, re-engineering,
but always believing that you dounderstand where the the future
(04:59):
is going to be.
And it's intoxicating forpeople to experience that.
Like when you're so sold on avision of the future, like
people want to be a part of thatand they want to help you build
it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:09):
And this concept of adding friction to
it, like how do we actually getover disagreement is actually
part of the hardest part becausedreaming is easy to get people
in line on a vision, and thenyou go through and like you
said, reverse engineerrelentlessly.
But then figuring out how tolet people say, like, I don't
(05:30):
really disagree with that plane,and here's another way to look
at it, is is part of part of Ithink the biggest challenge of
like really good planning.
So anyway, yeah, great.
I loved what you said.
I'm glad you put it out there.
I always I always use this kindof this concept of can you
prove it in the spreadsheet?
(05:51):
That's the way that I alwaysuse like this reverse
engineering concept is like, allright, let's go with our gut,
let's go with our heart, let'slet's follow our dreams.
And now can you figure out howyou're gonna follow it on a
spreadsheet?
Can you prove it withassumptions?
Can you show how the businessmodel is gonna work out?
Um, and it's the season forthat.
Q4, folks, if you're not doingit, you're falling behind.
(06:13):
That's all you gotta say.
Ben Larson (06:14):
Oh man, yeah, neck deep.
It is it is hard.
I just gotta say, I think wetalked about this last week, but
it is hard to keep the train onthe rails and start planning
for the next year.
It's it's just a lot of work.
Q4, I don't know if it's justour industry or if it's just
always in every industry, but Q4is intense.
Like the number of conferences,business getting done.
(06:36):
I think people are trying toget their entire quarter done
before you know, before Decemberhits.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:41):
You want to close out with a bang, also.
It's true.
It's like end strong.
Well, how are you doing?
Ben Larson (06:46):
I'm good.
I'm good.
I've uh what have I been doing?
I was recovering from lastweek.
My voice was much deeper lastweek on the podcast, so that was
evident of the fun that we hadin Vegas.
But just been trying to getthrough this.
I'll be in Denver later thisweek for SCC, which is a
conference dedicated to themedical side of cannabis, uh,
(07:06):
which I think is a veryimportant side that doesn't
always get spoken to.
One of the big unfortunatebyproducts of this adult use
movement and and like thenormalization of cannabis is
that everything went towards therecreational space, all the
branding, all that kind ofstuff.
And feel like we kind of leftthe medical movement in the
dust.
(07:26):
And so I really like to keep myfeet there and really
understand how we might healpeople with the plant.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:32):
Super important.
It's certainly where we allcame from.
I think it happened byaccident, to be honest, is that
it was really like market forcesand dynamics that landed us
where we are in thisrecreational space.
So going back to what we weretalking about about proving it
with the spreadsheet, I thinkthat that's that's really what
the medical space and thetherapeutic side of cannabis
(07:52):
needs to do is to figure out howto create viable market
opportunity to really serve thepatients that we know are out
there.
But where are they?
What's the channel?
Yeah, excited to hear aboutthat.
So cool.
Ben Larson (08:03):
Yeah.
We recognize really early onwith the ingredients that we
create that there were manyapplications to it.
A well-designed animal motioncould be very much be a
medicine, like a medicaldelivery, right?
But the commercial ingredientside was what was going to drive
and propel the business forwardand normalize the plant so we
(08:24):
could get to a place wheredoctors across the country were
willing to make recommendationsfor cannabis.
And so it is this feedback loopthat we've been anticipating
over the last seven years, atleast that we've been running
Virtosa.
And I do think we're getting toa place now where there's just
a lot more acceptance from themedical community about
(08:45):
alternative medicines.
And I'm I'm really excited forthis next phase of medicine.
Um, some people, like you know,Dr.
Peter Atia, like Medicine 3.0,being really more thoughtful
about what we're putting in ourbodies.
AnnaRae Grabstein (08:57):
I love it.
And and it's also relevant asit relates to potentially a
rescheduling of cannabis toschedule three and what that
could mean for kind of unlockingmedical opportunity more
broadly.
Um, and the general movement ofbiohacking our lives, which I'm
all for.
So amen.
I want to be as healthy aspossible.
(09:18):
Um, whatever, whatever ittakes.
Ben Larson (09:21):
Like Steinholding competitions.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:25):
Um, let's jump in.
I think we've got a reallyinteresting entrepreneur to
bring on and talk to us today.
Aubrey Amatelli is the founderand CEO of Pay Rio, a payments
provider exclusively focused oncannabis and alternative
medicine.
Audrey's career started at JPMorgan in their merchant
services group.
And over a decade she rose tothe executive director,
(09:46):
commercial banker, specializingin tech and disruptive commerce
in Silicon Valley.
Aubrey currently serves on theNCIA Banking and Financial
Services Committee.
And she's also a single motherof three who successfully led
Pey Rio to profitability inunder a year while self-funding
the business herself.
So really cool story and reallyinteresting business to shed
(10:07):
some light on things that peopledon't often talk about.
We've never talked aboutpayments.
So welcome, Aubrey.
Stoked to have you here.
Aubrey Amatelli (10:13):
Hi, so excited to be here.
Yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:16):
So, Aubrey, I hear you are on the road today,
calling in from the CentralCoast, somewhere beautiful.
Aubrey Amatelli (10:23):
I am very rare occasion for me to be outside of
the office, as I was mentioningearlier, but I am on the road
looking at the ocean in SantaBarbara.
So thank goodness for Starlinkup ahead.
But I am, yes, happy to be hereand excited to be able to work
on the road and talk to you alltoday.
Ben Larson (10:41):
Anna Ray, she's living your your dream.
She has the van, she has theStarlink, she's out on the road.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:47):
I know.
Yeah.
Ben Larson (10:48):
What are you waiting for?
Why are you still tuning infrom home?
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:53):
I will be recording podcasts in my van
very shortly.
Don't worry.
There will be one for the endof the year, I promise.
Aubrey Amatelli (11:02):
I have to admit, it was nice looking out
the window uh this morning andseeing dolphins kind of, you
know, going in the ocean.
It was it was beautiful.
So uh very thankful.
I think COVID did a lot for us,right?
Being able to uh have theopportunity to get outside of
the office and and uh you knowexplore this beautiful state.
California is beautiful.
(11:23):
I love that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:24):
Well, let's jump in and talk about cannabis
payments, which to many of uswho have worked on the retail
side or have tried to securepayment processing feels very
broken and highly complicated.
And we read all these headlinesabout rescheduling and banking
reform, but those things aren'thappening.
The payment rails are shaky.
(11:45):
It seems like they always havebeen.
Like, what is the deal?
Why is payment processing sucha mess?
Aubrey Amatelli (11:52):
Oh my gosh.
So it's interesting.
Coming into the cannabispayment industry, I, you know,
launching Payrio three yearsago, I didn't realize how shaky
it would be, right?
I'm thinking this is gonna beeasy or not easy, but you know,
I can figure this out.
You know, I've I spent over adecade at JP Morgan, I know all
the regulations and payments,uh, but coming in here, you you
(12:13):
learn a lot, right?
And the biggest thing is thatuh, you know, cannabis is
federally illegal and pay, youknow, Visa and MasterCard follow
what the federal governmentsays.
So they don't support, youknow, they are as a payment
company our governing body.
So if cannabis is federallylegal, Visa and MasterCard don't
support the payments.
So what we have to do aspayment processors are is find
(12:36):
unique ways to process paymentsthat aren't going directly
through the Visa and MasterCardRails.
Um, and that's why it's shakybecause it's very hard to find
payment solutions that aren'tyou know going directly through
the rails.
You know, Square is a you knownormalizing payment, Square is a
normal payment processor, Adand Stripe, those are the big
names that have come outrecently.
(12:57):
No one really talked aboutpayments back when I was at JP
Morgan, but now you seebillboards of Stripe, you see
Adian, you know, doing SuperBowl commercials.
So people know what paymentsare today.
Uh but you know, from a Canvaspayment standpoint, the industry
has never been able to processpayments in a normal way.
They're still infants when itcomes to that.
And so we're, you know, findunique ways to do that through
(13:21):
the ATM rails, through wallettechnology, um, and even as Ben
and I were talking earlier,dabbling and and starting into
looking at cryptocurrencies.
Ben Larson (13:30):
But when I first entered the industry, I was
evaluating a lot of companies,payments being one of them.
And one of the first filtersthat we applied to a lot of
companies was like, is thissomething that will just be
cannibalized as soon as like thegates fall?
Right.
As soon as there's legalizationor or something like that.
The the most common one waslike a social platform.
(13:51):
It's like, oh, we're theFacebook for for cannabis.
And like, isn't that justFacebook?
Now that was before we realizedthat they would let you build
up your accounts and then theywould shut you down overnight.
So maybe there was some somerelevance there.
But with payments, it's seeminglike it's it's on charting a
different course.
And and I say that because I'velearned over time payments is
(14:14):
different than banking.
So, like, even if a bank iswilling to bank you, that
doesn't necessarily mean thatpayments is going to be stable.
And so, like, how should wethink about the longevity of Pay
Rio as we kind of navigatethese these things on the
horizon, like safe banking orlike schedule three?
Like, how does that change ourour world as as entrepreneurs in
(14:35):
the space?
Aubrey Amatelli (14:36):
So the Safe Banking Act and Schedule Three
would be amazing for you knowfor the cannabis industry, but
they won't change the paymentlandscape because it still
doesn't mean that cannabis isconsidered federally legal.
And so my world, you know, thepayment world won't change.
(14:56):
Of course, more banks would,you know, uh would accept
cannabis companies and supportthem, but it still doesn't mean
that Visa and MasterCard aregoing to accept payments through
their rails.
So our world doesn't change.
But the future of Patrio, asyou asked, when cannabis becomes
federally legal, which I hopehappens sometime soon, that is
(15:18):
when Visa Master, you know,that's when the point of sale
companies, you know, that's whenpayments will be can, you know,
seen as normalized, and that'swhen payments will be integrated
into the point of salecompanies.
That's the big part here.
Point of sale company, a lot,every dispenser that we talk to
asks, do you integrate to Duchy?
Do you integrate to trees?
When you go to a grocery store,right, you ring up your
(15:41):
groceries are rung up, and thenwhen the total amount is
completed, then it shows upright on that terminal, right?
And you just tap your card orslide your card and you you pay.
In in cannabis, that is that'sa luxury to have, but that
doesn't happen very often,right?
That's the integrated paymentsolution that every dispensary
is looking for, but be but it'svery hard to have because um
(16:04):
because that there's no there'svery volatile payments, right?
And so once cannabis becomesfederally legal, all of the
point of sale solutions will beable to integrate payments.
And from a payrio standpoint,our non-integrated solutions
will eventually become obsolete.
That portion of my businesswill.
AnnaRae Grabstein (17:13):
And financial services groups and banks have
to figure out how to pick up thecash and move it around.
It's a lot.
Do you think that the paymentsuh restrictions that cannabis
companies face are creating anissue with safety and are
causing like cannabis companiesto use more cash than other
companies do?
(17:34):
And like what is, yeah, whatare the ramifications?
Aubrey Amatelli (17:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You know, we know there's not adispensary who when we have we
have credit and debit cardterminals, we do have credit
options, and every dispensaryhas to have two terminals on
their counter just to be able toaccept credit and debit card
payments.
So, yes, it it is forcing thedispensaries to have you know
(17:58):
majority cash.
I would say all of ourcustomers have at least 50% of
their transactions are cash.
That's a lot of cash on hand.
That's really dangerous.
That's why there's so manybreak-ins to dispensaries.
It's it that's why securityguards are required, right, at
every single dis at every, youknow, at the uh opening of the
store, right?
At the door.
(18:19):
Um, so I agree that it's reallyhindering the dispensaries
from, you know, from a safetystandpoint, but also from
growth.
We've done a lot of casestudies from the average ticket
uh growth when you go from cashto debit, you're growing about
34% your average ticket.
We just did a recent case studyfrom one of our dispensaries
(18:40):
who was cash only, and then theyadded debit.
They grew 34% in one month,their average ticket.
That's um that was a it theiraverage ticket grew about $15 at
this particular dispensary.
And then when you add credit,you're growing another 22 to
27%.
So it's also hindering the theamount of revenue this that each
(19:03):
dispensary can can earn.
Um, it's hindering the growthbecause the customers only have
a certain amount of cash onhand.
Um, and say they go to the backto the ATM, they might pull out
$100 and then they go shopping,right?
But when they get to thecounter, the taxes are through
the roof.
And so they might pull take$100 worth of goods, but then
they get to the counter and thetaxes are what 30, 40%, and then
(19:26):
they have to put, you know,goods back because they need to
pay for the taxes.
But if they had our terminal ora terminal at the front, then
they'd be able to, you know, payfor more than the cash they had
on hand.
That makes sense.
So it is really hindering thedispensaries in multiple ways
having these uh paymentregulations.
Ben Larson (19:44):
That sounds like a sales executive's like dream is
to have it's like, how would youlike to have 22% more revenue?
Um yeah.
Are there are there otherbarriers to sales as far as like
getting into thesedispensaries?
Are is there a backendlimitation sometimes, whether
it's like state to state or oror what's yeah, what's the
(20:07):
biggest limiter for expandingyour business into dispensaries?
Aubrey Amatelli (20:10):
Well, I think we we talked about the
beginning, it's just thevolatility of payments, right?
And it's finding solutions thatare reliable.
And when I started the company,I was just so bright-eyed,
like, well, this paymentsolution follows all the funds
flow, is you know, that has aproper MCC code.
Uh there's a compliant fundsflow.
(20:32):
It's not breaking any of theVisa MasterCard rules, right?
Every part of this transaction,every part of this technology
is uh fully compliant.
There's no way it could be shutdown, right?
There's no way the paymentbrands could come and say, this
isn't, you know, you're you'reum running these payments on our
rails because it was a wallettechnology very similar to
Venmo.
(20:52):
But lo and behold, a year and ahalf in, um, the solution was
sunsetted or essentially shutdown by Visa MasterCard.
And we had to transition ourclients to a new payment
solution.
So I think that's that's thehard part in this um in the
payment world is trust from thedispensaries in terms of how
(21:12):
long is this solution going tolast.
And and a lot of times, youknow, the the the most
trustworthy solution is cash oris ultimately debit.
Um debit solutions, cashlessATM runs on those ATM rails.
And that really is thefoundational solution in
payments right now.
But where we really see thegrowth is credit.
Um the younger generation lovesto do the Apple Pay, the Google
(21:36):
Pay, you know, the Tap to Pay.
I don't know the last time Ipulled out a card in my wallet
or even cash, right?
I love using my phone.
And so it, you know, in in theend, um, you know, finding those
unique payment solutions is isour goal, but um earning and
earning the trust of thedispensaries is really the
barrier in in the industry.
Ben Larson (21:57):
It's actually that's been become problematic for me
because I'll go days withoutseeing my wallet.
Yeah, and I'll just end upsomewhere.
I'm like, it actually happenedto me at the airport the other
day.
I was like, I don't have my IDon me.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:10):
It's it's so crazy because we talk a lot
about normalization.
And in this podcast, we'vetalked to people in all
different parts of the industry.
And and really, this concept ofnormalization and
destigmatizing cannabis.
I haven't really thought abouthow much payments and the
environment of the way that wepay for products affects kind of
(22:31):
ongoing stigma.
But the reality is that theexperience in a dispensary when
it comes to paying for yourtransaction is so substantively
different than the way that therest of us are getting to use
our phones to pay for thingsotherwise.
And I think it surprises peoplea lot and it just reinforces
(22:52):
like you're doing somethingwrong when you're in a
dispensary because now all ofthe other ways that you're used
to paying for things normallyall of a sudden don't work and
you have to do this other thing.
And it just makes people feellike they're doing something
wrong when they're not breakingany laws and it's totally legal
to be there.
It's just that we've got theserestrictions that um are
(23:12):
creating this environment thatis just it occurs to me that it
feels very unfair.
Yeah, it is.
Aubrey Amatelli (23:20):
And and the solutions that we've had to come
out with are, you know, to keepthe dispensaries safe and
compliant, right?
To not break those Visa andMasterCard rules and and to also
keep them safe from fraud andchargebacks and you know, a lot
of risks that it that they faceto take credit cards are are
insane.
Like uh one of the solutions wehave we have in the marketplace
(23:42):
now that is really safe for ourdispensaries requires a
consumer to upload the a pictureof their ID and do a facial
scan recognition in order tomake a payment for cannabis,
right?
To make a payment.
And and consumers are doing itbecause they want to use their
Amex.
But you're right, Anna Ray,it's like that makes me feel a
(24:04):
little like why do I have to dothis just to buy my medicine?
Right?
Why do I have to, you know, uhupload a picture of my ID and do
like a facial scan recognitionto make sure those match just so
that I can buy my medicine?
It's very interesting.
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:20):
Well, so we've been talking about the
dispensary environment, and Ithink that you have insight into
the difference betweenfinancial services and payment
processing kind of across thecannabinoid space.
So I want to dive into thedifference between regulated
state legal adult use cannabispayment processing versus um
(24:43):
hemp.
And then even within the hempreality, um, my understanding is
that there's differencesbetween CBD and Delta 9 and um
and brick and mortar versuse-com.
And there's there's been somereally big news in in the hemp
derived space.
Like Target is now selling hempbeverages in Minnesota.
(25:05):
And it got me thinking aboutlike, well, how do Target's
payment processors feel aboutthis?
So I'd love it if you couldjust crack open this whole
concept of the differencebetween hemp versus cannabis
processing and then help usunderstand the state of payment
processing in the hemp space aswell.
Aubrey Amatelli (25:22):
Yes.
So, you know, hemp is federallylegal.
And so hemp is essentially justconsidered a high-risk payment
uh category, which we love,which I can, you know, go to, we
have a handful of sponsoringbanks who love the hemp, you
know, hemp world, hemp CBD.
(25:43):
We also can do, believe it ornot, cannabis seeds, clones,
psilocybin spores.
So, you know, you can get very,very, very close to the can,
you know, cannabis, but justlike one step removed.
And because it's consideredfederally legal, they don't have
to face any of the regulationsof cannabis.
Uh, we do have to collect, forexample, COAs on every single
(26:07):
product to make sure, you know,that, you know, to evaluate and
the COA has to live on that pageuh of on the e-commerce site to
make sure that, you know, it'sgone through it's uh all of you
know been tested, et cetera, tomake sure it's uh been tested by
the I I don't know exactly howit's tested on the COA side.
I'm not on that technical side,but we collect that.
Ben Larson (26:29):
So the bank has to have on it real has to collect
that and have that.
Aubrey Amatelli (26:34):
We have to collect all this, yeah, we have
to collect all the COAs, have iton file, and we have to share
it with the bank, right?
So the bank really isultimately sponsoring all the
transactions.
So as a payment processor, ourunderwriting team, we work with
the banks, right?
And they they're the sponsorsof the transaction, so they want
to make sure that they have allthe COAs on file along with us
(26:56):
so that it is actually below0.3% THC.
That's what they're lookingfor.
That's the threshold there.
So the hemp beverages in um inMinnesota in Target are below
0.3% THC.
THCA, you know, or Delta 9,Delta 8, they still give you a
little bit of a buzz, right?
(27:18):
Like cannabis, but it's justnot, but it's below 0.3% THC.
So it is kind of that um alittle bit of a loophole that
came out a couple years ago,where a lot of the cannabis
industry decided to, you know,you know, go from growing
cannabis to turn their farmsinto THCA because it had less
(27:40):
regulations and they could allsell it online, right?
So it is a loophole.
And as payment processors,we're able to support those um
those industries uh and givethem uh merchant accounts where
they can sell their THCA, Delta8, Delta 9 online with really,
you know, a very low liftunderwriting process and
(28:01):
approval within you know fivebusiness days.
And then boom, they have ane-commerce store and they're
they're ready to go with withminimal um regulations and
rules.
There are certain states youcan't send to, et cetera.
Um, but we make sure that theyknow all of the rules and and we
monitor their websites actuallydaily uh through different
(28:21):
tools to make sure they'rethey're not um sending to
different states that they'renot allowed to to keep them
protected as well.
Ben Larson (28:28):
It is wild.
I know it breaks a lot ofbrains that we're stuck in this
role in in the dispensary modeland in the in the regulated
space with just like such aconstrained system.
And then because of these lawsthat were passed in the farm
bill, that even without completeguidance from the other federal
(28:48):
agencies, it is just federallylegal and it's just happening.
You mentioned the different youknow, cannabinoid categories
like CBD, Delta 9, um, TCA.
Are there different limitationsthat have occurred for these
different categories, or is itbasically all just treated as
hemp cannabinoids?
Aubrey Amatelli (29:06):
Yes, there are different limitations for each
category.
So um I don't have them allmemorized, but as the company
comes in, depending on whatthey're selling, um, then we
essentially give them or guidethem through their limitations
on where they can and can't sellor ship their product
(29:28):
ultimately based on the Visa andMasterCard rules.
So Visa and MasterCards set therules.
Um, and then we ensure that allof our customers abide by those
rules and guidelines so thatthey don't essentially get in
trouble or what's uh called puton the match list.
A match list is kind of thenaughty list, and if they're put
(29:49):
on the match list, they'refined and they're no longer
allowed to accept uh paymentsfor the indefinite future as a
legal entity or um essentiallyas an owner, they're Security
numbers actually put on thatlist as well.
So they don't want to getcaught on that match list.
Then we guide them through uhthe proper rules to make sure
that they are processingpayments or selling the proper
(30:12):
um, you know, processingpayments correctly.
Ben Larson (30:15):
So yeah, so VSAR MasterCard are interpreting
these kind of shifting state tostate laws that that are kind of
constantly in motion.
Uh exactly.
Do you know if do they publishthose publicly online for people
to see uh just to see whatthey're doing?
They do.
Okay.
Aubrey Amatelli (30:30):
Yeah.
And and we we actually lean onthe bank.
So I I wish I could say ourteam was like constantly looking
at all those uh rules andregulations, but we lean on our
banks.
Um ultimately we go through,you know, our bank sponsors, uh,
we lean on them to when they dothe underwriting, they sweep
through the website, make sureeverything uh looks up to par.
(30:53):
And if it doesn't, uh they letus know, and then we work with
our client to make sure theirwebsite and what they're you
know, what they're doing is isright uh based on right on the
regulations ultimately.
But uh we lean on the bank andthey have a compliance team that
is constantly monitoring therules and regulations so that
all of their customers are up todate.
AnnaRae Grabstein (31:14):
Bringing up banking, I think, is is worth
talking about.
You sit on the banking andfinancial services committee
with NCIA, and and your companyis sort of like a a collaborator
with the banks, like sittingbetween the banks and and the
cannabinoid businesses, be it onthe hemp side or on the
cannabis side.
And we know that the industryhas been pushing for the SAFE
(31:37):
for Safer Banking Act for, Idon't know, is it a decade?
It's like forever, is what itfeels like.
And um, and I think that itwould be interesting to hear
some of your perspective on thebanking environment.
Like, how hard is it still forcannabis companies to get
banking?
Is it actually still hard?
(31:58):
And what's the quality of banksthat are available to
cannabinoid companies today?
Aubrey Amatelli (32:03):
There is a lot more options for banks, for the
dispensaries.
And and the the reason I knowthat is when we have new
customers come in, we alwayshave to collect uh their bank
letter avoided check, right?
So that we're able to deposittheir funds into their bank
account once they come on board.
And I'm seeing new bank namespop up um, you know, every week
(32:24):
or every day, right?
So there are more and morebanks that are coming, uh,
coming to our table, but none ofthem are larger, more
streamlined banks.
Um, and you know, I I thinkthat the the banking, the banks
that do support cannabis still,you know, are are newer, uh like
they don't have the same UI orthe same technology as a JP
(32:46):
Morgan or a B of A or you know,uh uh, you know, they don't have
the same UI like that we need.
For example, Pay Rio, I when Ilaunched the company, I was
looking at Silicon Valley Bankor JP Morgan and I landed on
Fresno First.
I love Fresno First Bank, but Istill am not able to do a Zell,
right?
I'm I have I'm very limited inmy bank, what I'm able to do in
(33:09):
the bank, banking side of thehouse, and it seems very
archaic.
I love the bank and thebankers, but I don't have the
same tools that I think otherbusinesses outside of cannabis
have.
So there's still a strugglewith the uh with the
dispensaries and in the bankingworld uh with much smaller banks
uh today.
Uh but it it there are more andmore banks coming out of the
(33:31):
woodworks that are supportingcannabis, which is great.
Are you seeing B of A and andChase support hemp businesses?
Yes, yes, I am.
Yeah.
So the mainstream businessesare uh for the federally uh
legal products, I am seeing themainstream banks supporting
those.
Ben Larson (33:49):
Oh, interesting.
I did meet someone from Chaseat NBWA last week and actually
have dinner with them tomorrowin the evening.
So uh I'll update you guys onhow that goes.
Aubrey Amatelli (33:59):
There's a there's a fun fact.
So in Canada, uh JP Morgan isone or JP Morgan is one of the
largest payment processors forcannabis uh in Canada.
So I I learned that fun factbecause it is federally legal in
Canada.
So, you know, I think thateveryone's just kind of waiting
(34:19):
until the federal legalizationand the the big banks will will
jump on board.
It'll still be very high, youknow, considered high risk.
But I thought that was veryinteresting.
Uh that in Canada, JP Morgan isa big supporter of of the
cannabis market.
Ben Larson (34:34):
So you've been at this for for some time now, and
you you're watching thisevolution, you're watching more
banks and more services come in.
We've been through multiplewaves of safe banking, I think
maybe 10 and also reschedulingand all that kind of stuff.
I'm curious, as an entrepreneurin the space, as someone that's
tracking this from yourperspective, like what and when
(34:57):
is like the next big shift?
Like what is the next big winfor for your segment of the
industry?
Aubrey Amatelli (35:06):
I don't foresee federal legalization coming
anytime soon.
I thought it was coming, youknow, about a year ago.
I was thinking it was comingsoon, but I I do I do think
we're quite a ways out.
Um, but what Patrio, we stilllove to, you know, we still
support dispensaries everysingle day, but a big shift of
ours has been over to, you know,supporting the the federally
(35:30):
legal market.
So our e-commerce business hasgrown tremendously, supporting
the hemp side of the house.
We've really grown in that inthat realm because uh believe it
or not, cannabis payments hasbeen, you know, very calm.
There hasn't been a lot ofuproar or shutdowns in cannabis
(35:50):
payments over the last 12 uhplus months in terms of, you
know, as I mentioned, debit isthe foundational product of
cannabis.
It's been very solid andtrustworthy.
And so dispensaries are happy,happily processing.
Uh credit card payments arestill the nut to crack there.
Uh, so we have solutions thatuh we're bringing to the market,
but uh dispense, those arecredit card processing is a nice
(36:13):
to have now.
Uh when it used to be we reallywant to have that to grow our
business.
So credit card processing is acherry on top.
So I think the opportunity hasreally shifted into the hemp
market and and uh growing, youknow, growing that uh that
market in the e-commerce side.
Um we also, believe it or not,peptides uh has been a really
(36:33):
fast-growing hot topic inpayments recently uh because
peptides were recently regulatedby the federal government.
So they used to be able toprocess payments normally, like
any other industry, uh likehemp, um, but then they were
regulated.
And now only research peptidesare allowed to run through the
(36:54):
Visa MasterCard Rails.
So a lot of B2C peptidecompanies were shut off by their
payment processors and arelooking for unique solutions in
payments.
And luckily, Payrio hasalternative ways to process
payments because we've learnedthem from cannabis.
So peptides has been a reallyfast growing uh industry for us
(37:14):
as well.
Ben Larson (37:15):
Wow, that was not what I expected.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:20):
It's so interesting, the entrepreneur's
journey, and you really are one.
Um, and I think that it wouldbe fun to talk about your
journey of starting this paymentsolution in this high-risk
space.
I know that you are self-fundedthe company.
Uh, you have celebratedpublicly that you are profitable
(37:41):
in under a year, woman-ledcompany or a single mom of
three.
It's like, what what pushed youto take the leap and start
Payrio?
Aubrey Amatelli (37:51):
So I before I answer this question, Anna Ray,
you know, I was just rememberinguh you were one of the very
first faces that I ever met uhafter starting Pay Rio.
So I just want to thank you forum just being that smiling face
in that very first Canopaquemeeting in San Francisco when I
remember I started the company.
(38:13):
I heard of a cannabis event inSan Francisco, I had no clients,
I, you know, barely I had thisidea and barely a product, and I
was so scared driving over theBay Bridge from Danville going
to that event in San Francisco,not knowing anybody.
And you were there and wetalked, and I am so thankful to
(38:33):
be here, you know, over threeyears later, and thank you for
you know supporting me thiswhole time, you know, this whole
time.
So I really appreciate you.
I just wanted to, I was justthinking like you were one of
the the first faces that I evermet in cannabis.
So thank you for that.
Um, but how did I start this?
(38:53):
I you know, I I spent so muchtime at JP Morgan and I
absolutely loved it, but I wasgetting the itch to leave after
10, 11 years.
And growing up in the SiliconValley, I feel like, you know, I
wanted to get back into thestartup world.
Startups were always, you know,in my in my blood, and and my
kids were older.
(39:14):
So I took the leap of faith andum took an opportunity to be
the chief revenue officer at afintech um outside of JP Morgan
and my the whole JP Morganfamily was super supportive of
me, uh, of me doing that.
Um, that company uh was a greatexperience.
It was a payment company aswell, working in the accounting
(39:34):
and law vertical.
Um, but I was the only femalein the entire C-suite and board
at that company.
And um, I learned that I hadlearned had a very valuable um
education at JP Morgan and whatI learned there was super
valuable at a startup, right?
I had a lot of great ideas fromJP Morgan, and a lot of what I
(39:56):
learned there I could bring intoa small startup and really help
it grow.
Um, however, I also learnedthat um I also being the only
female there, um, you know, Ijust didn't get treated the way
I that I should have.
Uh, and I didn't have very goodexperience with that CEO and
ultimately um had to leave thecompany.
(40:17):
Um, and at that time, I justknew that I wanted to start my
own company that was reallysupportive of women in business,
and I wanted to uh just be afemale entrepreneur and show
other women that they could doit too.
And so that's why I started PayRio was that kind of out of
that experience of um, you know,if I couldn't be the change at
(40:39):
a company that was very maledominated, I thought maybe I
could just be the change and doit myself.
So that's why Pay Rio wasstarted.
Uh, we do employ a very largeuh majority women, a lot of
stay-at-home moms andstay-at-home parents, so that it
can give them the opportunityto support their families as
well.
Um, and it's just been awonderful experience so far uh
(41:04):
and self-funded because I don'tknow, I just didn't know how to
go out and get funding.
And you know, all I knew waslike I started it by doing
hundreds of you know 100 coldcalls a day, and that's really
how I started the business, andit grew from there.
Ben Larson (41:17):
Wow.
So that's that's an incrediblejourney.
And I'm I'm getting the sensethat this is also infused into
the branding.
Pay Rio is known for its brightpink and bright blue, like we
see you guys walking aroundconferences.
Uh last week we had UncleArnie's on and we talked about
their branding and how it waskind of swimming contra flow to
(41:37):
to the standard in in thatcategory.
This also, I mean, Pay Rio isnot what you would expect to see
when looking at financialservices companies.
And so, can you talk a littlebit about the motivation behind
the brand and then also how it'sresonated over the last few
years as as you've built out theoffering?
Aubrey Amatelli (41:56):
Yeah, so I I wanted Pay Rio to be uh again
more feminine and approachableas a payment company.
I feel like payments aren'treally talked about, not really
exciting.
So thank you for overlistening, right?
It's not a very exciting topic.
I mean, I didn't care aboutwhat happened after I swipe my
(42:17):
card.
You know, I didn't care aboutthose milliseconds, you know,
from the time I swiped my cardfrom an approval.
But now I live and breathethose milliseconds.
I talk about them all the dayor all the time, every single
day.
Um, so I wanted Pey Rio to bevery approachable and it's
really just an extension of me.
Uh, Rio is actually mydaughter's name.
So it's my youngest of three.
(42:38):
That's her name.
Uh, and I I like the brightpink, and the blue comes from
water, right?
Rio River, and uh and justwanted to to have a little bit
of fun with the brand because itwas just me at the start.
So uh how could I have fun andand make it uh where people
wanted to hopefully reach outand and work with us?
(42:59):
Uh the pink and blue was justbecause I needed a hat to go to
MJ BizCon.
I needed some sort of swag toget to MJ BizCon three years ago
uh where people would noticeus.
And then um, that first MJBizcon, we got a ton of comments
on the hat and it just kind ofstuck.
So now it's a requirement.
Every time we go out to aconference, we wear the pink and
(43:21):
blue hats.
But it's worked.
Um, we really started from agrassroots standpoint going to
local and regional and nationalevents.
Um, we are very involved in thecommunity in in terms of
cannabis.
I'm really passionate about theplant.
Um, I'm passionate about thecommunity.
(43:42):
Uh we're we're part of it allaround the country, wherever our
reps are, they are part of allthe local events.
And that's how we started isreally from the grassroots
standpoint.
And and my goal was just wordof mouth, um, treating our
customers right.
Hopefully they'll recommend usto the next.
So from a marketing standpoint,our budget was those hats.
(44:04):
Um, and then my and Chase, mypart-time marketing guy,
part-time sales guy.
But ultimately, that's themaximum marketing we've done.
And um, I just, you know, mygoal is just to do really great
work and treat our customersright and treat my employees
right and and you know,organically grow from there.
I love it.
Ben Larson (44:22):
I love it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (44:23):
It's awesome.
You know, your your storyreminds me of that, like within
the pain and suffering thatcannabis is because of all of
the regulations and complexityof being federally illegal, it
also presents opportunities forentrepreneurs.
And I think that that's one ofthe things that Ben and I have
loved so much about building incannabis too, is that you know,
(44:44):
if if cannabis had beenfederally legal since the
beginning, there wouldn't havebeen an opportunity for you to
start Payrio.
It just would have been gobbledup by Square and any other like
massive, huge company that'sout there would have served the
space.
And so because of theseterrible, messed up
restrictions, it's like peoplethat really have fight in their
(45:06):
spirit and are willing to dosomething that very few other
people will do, start businessesin this space and try to create
something that matters.
And that it's kind of like it'swhat keeps me coming back time
and time again, is it's thatrebel spirit of the cannabis
entrepreneur.
And and whether it's with likea grower or product manufacturer
(45:26):
or a payment provider, likethere's this thread that I see
between us all, and I certainlysee it in you and hearing the
story.
So it's it's just really coolto hear.
Thank you.
Aubrey Amatelli (45:36):
I know we all have fight, don't we?
Right.
And we're all fighting for thesame same thing.
And soon we'll we'll get there,right?
But as an entrepreneur, it is afight no matter what industry
we are.
But I am the plant just has somany gifts to give all of us,
right?
And that's why we we stick itout.
Yeah.
Ben Larson (45:54):
I so you mentioned your daughter and and the
namesake of the company.
Um curious just what thisjourney's been like as a mom of
three children and andnavigating space and kind of
having that be a part of yourpersonal brand.
Like, what has that journeybeen like for you?
Uh coming out of JP Morgan,something where it's like, oh,
(46:15):
very, you know, very wellrespected, very, very straight
laced to cannabis industry.
Yeah, see, the perfect timing,perfect timing.
They're coming for you.
Aubrey Amatelli (46:27):
Yeah, I know, I know.
You know, that that was veryinteresting.
The coming out on LinkedIn wasa big deal uh for me.
It was like I was very nervous.
Okay, you know, I'm I'm readyto come out on LinkedIn.
The majority of, you know, 80%of my connections on LinkedIn
have been a decade plus of my JPMorgan, you know, payments and
(46:50):
all of my customers at JPMorgan, et cetera.
How is that going to be whenI'm saying I'm launching a
cannabis payment company?
Um, but I was excited, I wasproud of what I was doing, and I
was ready.
Um, I went came out on LinkedInand I had dozens and dozens of
DMs from you know cheerleadersat JP Morgan and all my
(47:10):
colleagues saying, I use thissleep gummy at night or I grow
cannabis here or I make cookies,can you help me?
And it was, I was so um, youknow, I was so welcomed by my JP
Morgan community.
And, you know, I I was soscared, but it was it's actually
this, I just been so acceptit's been I've been so accepted
(47:32):
uh since coming out.
So it's you know, maybe I'm ina little bubble, maybe we're in
a bubble in California, and andI'm I'm I'm grateful for that.
But uh it has, I haven't reallyfaced that many hardships.
Um, you know, my kids are Idon't my kids just talk about it
as a medicine.
Uh, you know, I've we have sixplants, uh not the last summer,
(47:55):
but a couple summers before.
I've we've grown six plantssince COVID, uh, you know, our
regulated amount in the backyardjust for fun.
Uh, we have a garden with abunch of other vegetables as
well.
Uh so it's been normalized withmy with my kids as well.
So um, yeah, everyone seems tobe really happy and supportive.
I think that, you know, everyas a single mom, um, they this
(48:16):
is the way I'm providing for myfamily and um, you know, and and
providing for my employees andjust creating opportunities and
jobs.
And so how can you not supportthat, if that makes sense?
Ben Larson (48:29):
Man, I I you and Anna or A are living parallel
lives, farmer, entrepreneur,banker, mother.
AnnaRae Grabstein (48:36):
It's this funny thing.
Like, I at school events andthings, if I tell people that
I'm in cannabis, I feel likeit's this funny invitation that
I'm not actually inviting, butthat people think it's an
invitation of like, oh, you'resafe.
Now I'm gonna tell you aboutall of my recreational recogies
that I do on the weekends, I dowith my friends.
And I'm like, whoa, I do I dobusiness strategy in cannabis.
(49:00):
I'm not a drug dealer, butlike, thank you.
Aubrey Amatelli (49:06):
It's like they think you're a dispensary all
the summer, you know?
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:10):
Yeah, like product, a product reviewer and
and kind of like a plug.
And I'm like, nope, not theplug, but uh, but thanks so much
for recognizing that I am anaccepting person that is not
going to judge you for what youchoose to do on your off hours,
right?
Aubrey Amatelli (49:26):
Exactly.
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:29):
I don't know.
Does that happen to dads aswell then at school when you
tell people that you're incannabis?
Ben Larson (49:34):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've I've gotten lots ofpositive feedback.
I've been invited to raves,I've definitely been asked uh if
I have a connect.
So and generally the answer isyes.
Aubrey Amatelli (49:47):
I mean, we we we we do, right?
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:50):
Um amazing.
Well, this has been so fun,Aubrey.
I think that it's really it'sit's been enlightening for me,
honestly, to think about thispart of the business in a way
that we don't often.
And I I think that it willprobably benefit a lot of our
listeners out there.
Um and we're towards the end ofthe hour.
So it's time for our last call.
And this is your chance to givea final message to our
(50:13):
listeners, advice, a call toaction, or a closing thought.
So you let us know.
What's your last call?
Aubrey Amatelli (50:18):
My last call really, you know, that comes to
mind right now is just thesupport of, you know, female
entrepreneurs and women incannabis.
I don't know, that just came upto me, you know, um, just
looking, you know, the way thatyou supported me uh since the
beginning.
Um, you know, it's a fightbeing a female entrepreneur and
a female in business.
(50:39):
Um, and there's so many amazingwomen out there pushing in the
in the cannabis industry.
Um, I know Leah Sherry doesNORCAL Women in Cannabis.
Um, but it just in general,like uh being a female founder
and seeing other women incannabis uh supporting their
business, liking their posts,uh, working with women in
(51:00):
cannabis, uh it's just anotherway to help lift us all up.
Um and just recommendrecommending women, I think is
really important.
Um it's just been a really bigreason.
It has been the reason why Istarted Pay Rio.
Um I want other women to knowthat you know they can do it
too.
Um, that I I've done it, youknow, and we can all do it too.
(51:22):
And I and it it takes um ittakes a village, but um it's
really incredible to have womenlike you, Anna Ray.
I know Jocelyn's another onewho was there at that day, and
and those are two you are twofaces and two women who've been
there um supporting me from thebeginning, and I hope that I can
be um an inspiration or asupport to women in the future.
(51:44):
So um I guess that's my closingthought is just to keep pushing
and supporting women incannabis because uh we we all
are uh working really hard tomake our way, and uh, there's a
very small percentage ofentrepreneurs in in technology
in my space, but uh especiallyin in the cannabis space as
well.
Awesome.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:05):
So cool.
Yes, transact with women.
Um yes, please.
Important.
Hell yes.
I love it.
Ben Larson (52:11):
Support your women in weed.
All right, yes, yes, AubreyAmitelli, founder and CEO of
Payrio.
Thank you so much for spendingthe last hour with us.
It was really great.
I hope you enjoy the sunshinein Santa Barbara.
A little bit jealous, but I'lllet you be off the hook with it.
All right, talk to you soon.
(52:31):
Anna Ray, you're soinfluential.
I love it.
Such a badass.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:38):
Oh, that was really interesting.
I like really thought aboutsome things I hadn't in a little
while.
How about you?
Ben Larson (52:44):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I I take payments for grantedand I spend a lot of time, you
know, in the in the normal worldat grocery stores and all that,
and it it does uh catch you bysurprise when you walk into the
dispensary, especially one thatisn't outfitted with the payment
services.
It's like, oh man, I have to goto the ATM.
And again, I'm left looking formy wallet because it's probably
(53:04):
left in the car or something,or at home even.
And so it's a big hurdle.
Those numbers are startling22%.
AnnaRae Grabstein (53:11):
Yeah, crazy.
Ben Larson (53:13):
What do you think, folks?
Tell us what you think.
Engage, leave comments, share,follow, subscribe, do all the
things.
Thank you to our friends atVirtosa and Wolfmeyer, and our
producer, Eric Rossetti.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please drop us a review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, orwherever you listen to your
show.
And finally, folks, staycurious, stay informed, and most
(53:36):
importantly, keep your spiritshigh.
When you go from cash to debit, you're
growing about 34% your averageticket.
And then when you add credit,you're growing another 22 to
27%.
Sarah Falvo (00:16):
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 110 of High
Spirits.
I'm Sarah Falvo, Director ofMarketing at Vertosa.
Don't worry, Ben and Anna Raywill be joining us shortly.
They've asked me to hop on themic to share some exciting news
about the event we've all beenwaiting for.
Our third annual High SpiritsMorning Mixer at MJ Viz.
(00:38):
This event is our way of sayingthank you to our incredible
community, our listeners,podcast guests, cannabis
colleagues, and friends.
We can't wait to celebrate withyou.
So mark your calendars forThursday, December 4th.
It's the perfect way to kickoff your MJ Viz day, catching up
with friends, talking shop, andsipping on some coffee and
(00:59):
maybe a cannabis beverage orfour in our beautiful bungalow
suite at the Cosmopolitan.
Keep an eye out for more eventdetails soon, and trust me, this
is one you won't want to miss.
And without further ado, AnnaRay and Ben.
Ben Larson (01:15):
Amazing.
All right.
I have a replacement.
This is great.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:21):
Eric, this is so cool.
I'm so glad that you could joinus this morning for this intro.
I feel so grateful.
Sarah Falvo (01:28):
Thank you for having me.
I've been a fan since day one.
Obviously, you guys know.
AnnaRae Grabstein (01:34):
Well, you've been planning the morning mixer
since long before you gotsnagged by Ben and hired by
Virtosa.
And um, you've done such anincredible job.
And it's been so fun to get tobuild this community event with
you over the years.
You've been the mastermindbehind all of the perfect
details.
So thank you.
Ben Larson (01:53):
Yeah, I think the the biggest feedback we got from
the last two years was that wewanted more space and maybe a
little bit of airflow.
So we got both, and we'rereally excited about that.
Sarah Falvo (02:04):
Yes, we have the coolest bungalow suite at the
Cosmo, few different levels,some outdoor space.
So, yes, we we listened to thecommunity and uh we adjusted.
So it's a good problem to have.
Ben Larson (02:19):
Awesome.
AnnaRae Grabstein (02:20):
Totally.
I I think it's so strange howin Vegas almost no hotel lets
you open a window anywhere.
It's like, and it's common inlots of hotels, especially
high-rises, but we had to go tothe Cosmo this year so we could
get some fresh air at our party.
Like, come on, we all deservesome fresh air, right?
Uh, I'm super excited.
(02:40):
Me too.
Ben Larson (02:41):
Awesome.
Well, Sarah, thank you so much.
Uh, you did a great job.
And yeah, you can sub inanytime.
Sarah Falvo (02:48):
Absolutely.
I always love chatting with youon or off camera, the both of
you.
So thank you very much forletting me come and talk about
our fun event.
And I'll talk to you guyslater.
Ben Larson (02:58):
All right, see ya.
Sarah Falvo (02:58):
Bye, Sarah.
Ben Larson (03:00):
Alrighty, on with the show, as they say.
And Ray, how's your week going?
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:04):
My week's been great.
You know, I I had to go backthis morning, actually, because
I have just been doing a ton of2026 planning with all my
clients, and I'm just in thismode.
And this morning I was like, Iread something that Ben posted
on LinkedIn over the weekend,and I feel like it's really
speaking to what I'm feeling inthe world right now.
And like deep in a very longrant of yours.
(03:28):
Not that maybe not a rant, Ithink you call it a weekend
musing or something.
Oh yes, oh yes.
Ben Larson (03:33):
There's usually spin up when I'm like at the gym and
like all the juices areflowing, and I'm like, I just
gotta get stuff out.
AnnaRae Grabstein (03:38):
And so well, deep deep in there, like towards
the bottom, you said dreamboldly, reverse engineer
relentlessly, and welcome thefriction.
And it's like completely sumsup where I'm at in my world
right now.
I'm just in this, like, thinkabout everything that could be,
but then also like truly thinkabout the mechanics of how you
(04:01):
get there.
And um, it's like a crazy brainexercise time.
I feel like I'm just I'm justin the brain exercise season and
it feels really good.
And I'm excited to get to beworking on kind of execution
related to visioning in allkinds of ways.
Ben Larson (04:16):
So I love that for you.
It is it is such it, it is sucha fun space to be in where you
truly just allow yourself todream about what the future
looks like.
And this is what makes greatentrepreneurs, right?
Like a great entrepreneur seesa future that maybe other people
can't see so clearly, and thenthey reverse engineer it, or
they build a great team that canhelp them reverse engineer it.
(04:37):
And of course, those plans areusually long and bold, and they
change.
So the friction is an importantpart because pivots happen,
feedback happens, people waysmarter than you come along and
they give you new intel.
It's just this constant effortof listening, re-engineering,
but always believing that you dounderstand where the the future
(04:59):
is going to be.
And it's intoxicating forpeople to experience that.
Like when you're so sold on avision of the future, like
people want to be a part of thatand they want to help you build
it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (05:09):
And this concept of adding friction to
it, like how do we actually getover disagreement is actually
part of the hardest part becausedreaming is easy to get people
in line on a vision, and thenyou go through and like you
said, reverse engineerrelentlessly.
But then figuring out how tolet people say, like, I don't
(05:30):
really disagree with that plane,and here's another way to look
at it, is is part of part of Ithink the biggest challenge of
like really good planning.
So anyway, yeah, great.
I loved what you said.
I'm glad you put it out there.
I always I always use this kindof this concept of can you
prove it in the spreadsheet?
(05:51):
That's the way that I alwaysuse like this reverse
engineering concept is like, allright, let's go with our gut,
let's go with our heart, let'slet's follow our dreams.
And now can you figure out howyou're gonna follow it on a
spreadsheet?
Can you prove it withassumptions?
Can you show how the businessmodel is gonna work out?
Um, and it's the season forthat.
Q4, folks, if you're not doingit, you're falling behind.
(06:13):
That's all you gotta say.
Ben Larson (06:14):
Oh man, yeah, neck deep.
It is it is hard.
I just gotta say, I think wetalked about this last week, but
it is hard to keep the train onthe rails and start planning
for the next year.
It's it's just a lot of work.
Q4, I don't know if it's justour industry or if it's just
always in every industry, but Q4is intense.
Like the number of conferences,business getting done.
(06:36):
I think people are trying toget their entire quarter done
before you know, before Decemberhits.
AnnaRae Grabstein (06:41):
You want to close out with a bang, also.
It's true.
It's like end strong.
Well, how are you doing?
Ben Larson (06:46):
I'm good.
I'm good.
I've uh what have I been doing?
I was recovering from lastweek.
My voice was much deeper lastweek on the podcast, so that was
evident of the fun that we hadin Vegas.
But just been trying to getthrough this.
I'll be in Denver later thisweek for SCC, which is a
conference dedicated to themedical side of cannabis, uh,
(07:06):
which I think is a veryimportant side that doesn't
always get spoken to.
One of the big unfortunatebyproducts of this adult use
movement and and like thenormalization of cannabis is
that everything went towards therecreational space, all the
branding, all that kind ofstuff.
And feel like we kind of leftthe medical movement in the
dust.
(07:26):
And so I really like to keep myfeet there and really
understand how we might healpeople with the plant.
AnnaRae Grabstein (07:32):
Super important.
It's certainly where we allcame from.
I think it happened byaccident, to be honest, is that
it was really like market forcesand dynamics that landed us
where we are in thisrecreational space.
So going back to what we weretalking about about proving it
with the spreadsheet, I thinkthat that's that's really what
the medical space and thetherapeutic side of cannabis
(07:52):
needs to do is to figure out howto create viable market
opportunity to really serve thepatients that we know are out
there.
But where are they?
What's the channel?
Yeah, excited to hear aboutthat.
So cool.
Ben Larson (08:03):
Yeah.
We recognize really early onwith the ingredients that we
create that there were manyapplications to it.
A well-designed animal motioncould be very much be a
medicine, like a medicaldelivery, right?
But the commercial ingredientside was what was going to drive
and propel the business forwardand normalize the plant so we
(08:24):
could get to a place wheredoctors across the country were
willing to make recommendationsfor cannabis.
And so it is this feedback loopthat we've been anticipating
over the last seven years, atleast that we've been running
Virtosa.
And I do think we're getting toa place now where there's just
a lot more acceptance from themedical community about
(08:45):
alternative medicines.
And I'm I'm really excited forthis next phase of medicine.
Um, some people, like you know,Dr.
Peter Atia, like Medicine 3.0,being really more thoughtful
about what we're putting in ourbodies.
AnnaRae Grabstein (08:57):
I love it.
And and it's also relevant asit relates to potentially a
rescheduling of cannabis toschedule three and what that
could mean for kind of unlockingmedical opportunity more
broadly.
Um, and the general movement ofbiohacking our lives, which I'm
all for.
So amen.
I want to be as healthy aspossible.
(09:18):
Um, whatever, whatever ittakes.
Ben Larson (09:21):
Like Steinholding competitions.
AnnaRae Grabstein (09:25):
Um, let's jump in.
I think we've got a reallyinteresting entrepreneur to
bring on and talk to us today.
Aubrey Amatelli is the founderand CEO of Pay Rio, a payments
provider exclusively focused oncannabis and alternative
medicine.
Audrey's career started at JPMorgan in their merchant
services group.
And over a decade she rose tothe executive director,
(09:46):
commercial banker, specializingin tech and disruptive commerce
in Silicon Valley.
Aubrey currently serves on theNCIA Banking and Financial
Services Committee.
And she's also a single motherof three who successfully led
Pey Rio to profitability inunder a year while self-funding
the business herself.
So really cool story and reallyinteresting business to shed
(10:07):
some light on things that peopledon't often talk about.
We've never talked aboutpayments.
So welcome, Aubrey.
Stoked to have you here.
Aubrey Amatelli (10:13):
Hi, so excited to be here.
Yeah.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:16):
So, Aubrey, I hear you are on the road today,
calling in from the CentralCoast, somewhere beautiful.
Aubrey Amatelli (10:23):
I am very rare occasion for me to be outside of
the office, as I was mentioningearlier, but I am on the road
looking at the ocean in SantaBarbara.
So thank goodness for Starlinkup ahead.
But I am, yes, happy to be hereand excited to be able to work
on the road and talk to you alltoday.
Ben Larson (10:41):
Anna Ray, she's living your your dream.
She has the van, she has theStarlink, she's out on the road.
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:47):
I know.
Yeah.
Ben Larson (10:48):
What are you waiting for?
Why are you still tuning infrom home?
AnnaRae Grabstein (10:53):
I will be recording podcasts in my van
very shortly.
Don't worry.
There will be one for the endof the year, I promise.
Aubrey Amatelli (11:02):
I have to admit, it was nice looking out
the window uh this morning andseeing dolphins kind of, you
know, going in the ocean.
It was it was beautiful.
So uh very thankful.
I think COVID did a lot for us,right?
Being able to uh have theopportunity to get outside of
the office and and uh you knowexplore this beautiful state.
California is beautiful.
(11:23):
I love that.
AnnaRae Grabstein (11:24):
Well, let's jump in and talk about cannabis
payments, which to many of uswho have worked on the retail
side or have tried to securepayment processing feels very
broken and highly complicated.
And we read all these headlinesabout rescheduling and banking
reform, but those things aren'thappening.
The payment rails are shaky.
(11:45):
It seems like they always havebeen.
Like, what is the deal?
Why is payment processing sucha mess?
Aubrey Amatelli (11:52):
Oh my gosh.
So it's interesting.
Coming into the cannabispayment industry, I, you know,
launching Payrio three yearsago, I didn't realize how shaky
it would be, right?
I'm thinking this is gonna beeasy or not easy, but you know,
I can figure this out.
You know, I've I spent over adecade at JP Morgan, I know all
the regulations and payments,uh, but coming in here, you you
(12:13):
learn a lot, right?
And the biggest thing is thatuh, you know, cannabis is
federally illegal and pay, youknow, Visa and MasterCard follow
what the federal governmentsays.
So they don't support, youknow, they are as a payment
company our governing body.
So if cannabis is federallylegal, Visa and MasterCard don't
support the payments.
So what we have to do aspayment processors are is find
(12:36):
unique ways to process paymentsthat aren't going directly
through the Visa and MasterCardRails.
Um, and that's why it's shakybecause it's very hard to find
payment solutions that aren'tyou know going directly through
the rails.
You know, Square is a you knownormalizing payment, Square is a
normal payment processor, Adand Stripe, those are the big
names that have come outrecently.
(12:57):
No one really talked aboutpayments back when I was at JP
Morgan, but now you seebillboards of Stripe, you see
Adian, you know, doing SuperBowl commercials.
So people know what paymentsare today.
Uh but you know, from a Canvaspayment standpoint, the industry
has never been able to processpayments in a normal way.
They're still infants when itcomes to that.
And so we're, you know, findunique ways to do that through
(13:21):
the ATM rails, through wallettechnology, um, and even as Ben
and I were talking earlier,dabbling and and starting into
looking at cryptocurrencies.
Ben Larson (13:30):
But when I first entered the industry, I was
evaluating a lot of companies,payments being one of them.
And one of the first filtersthat we applied to a lot of
companies was like, is thissomething that will just be
cannibalized as soon as like thegates fall?
Right.
As soon as there's legalizationor or something like that.
The the most common one waslike a social platform.
(13:51):
It's like, oh, we're theFacebook for for cannabis.
And like, isn't that justFacebook?
Now that was before we realizedthat they would let you build
up your accounts and then theywould shut you down overnight.
So maybe there was some somerelevance there.
But with payments, it's seeminglike it's it's on charting a
different course.
And and I say that because I'velearned over time payments is
(14:14):
different than banking.
So, like, even if a bank iswilling to bank you, that
doesn't necessarily mean thatpayments is going to be stable.
And so, like, how should wethink about the longevity of Pay
Rio as we kind of navigatethese these things on the
horizon, like safe banking orlike schedule three?
Like, how does that change ourour world as as entrepreneurs in
(14:35):
the space?
Aubrey Amatelli (14:36):
So the Safe Banking Act and Schedule Three
would be amazing for you knowfor the cannabis industry, but
they won't change the paymentlandscape because it still
doesn't mean that cannabis isconsidered federally legal.
And so my world, you know, thepayment world won't change.
(14:56):
Of course, more banks would,you know, uh would accept
cannabis companies and supportthem, but it still doesn't mean
that Visa and MasterCard aregoing to accept payments through
their rails.
So our world doesn't change.
But the future of Patrio, asyou asked, when cannabis becomes
federally legal, which I hopehappens sometime soon, that is
(15:18):
when Visa Master, you know,that's when the point of sale
companies, you know, that's whenpayments will be can, you know,
seen as normalized, and that'swhen payments will be integrated
into the point of salecompanies.
That's the big part here.
Point of sale company, a lot,every dispenser that we talk to
asks, do you integrate to Duchy?
Do you integrate to trees?
When you go to a grocery store,right, you ring up your
(15:41):
groceries are rung up, and thenwhen the total amount is
completed, then it shows upright on that terminal, right?
And you just tap your card orslide your card and you you pay.
In in cannabis, that is that'sa luxury to have, but that
doesn't happen very often,right?
That's the integrated paymentsolution that every dispensary
is looking for, but be but it'svery hard to have because um
(16:04):
because that there's no there'svery volatile payments, right?
And so once cannabis becomesfederally legal, all of the
point of sale solutions will beable to integrate payments.
And from a payrio standpoint,our non-integrated solutions
will eventually become obsolete.
That portion of my businesswill.
AnnaRae Grabstein (17:13):
And financial services groups and banks have
to figure out how to pick up thecash and move it around.
It's a lot.
Do you think that the paymentsuh restrictions that cannabis
companies face are creating anissue with safety and are
causing like cannabis companiesto use more cash than other
companies do?
(17:34):
And like what is, yeah, whatare the ramifications?
Aubrey Amatelli (17:37):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You know, we know there's not adispensary who when we have we
have credit and debit cardterminals, we do have credit
options, and every dispensaryhas to have two terminals on
their counter just to be able toaccept credit and debit card
payments.
So, yes, it it is forcing thedispensaries to have you know
(17:58):
majority cash.
I would say all of ourcustomers have at least 50% of
their transactions are cash.
That's a lot of cash on hand.
That's really dangerous.
That's why there's so manybreak-ins to dispensaries.
It's it that's why securityguards are required, right, at
every single dis at every, youknow, at the uh opening of the
store, right?
At the door.
(18:19):
Um, so I agree that it's reallyhindering the dispensaries
from, you know, from a safetystandpoint, but also from
growth.
We've done a lot of casestudies from the average ticket
uh growth when you go from cashto debit, you're growing about
34% your average ticket.
We just did a recent case studyfrom one of our dispensaries
(18:40):
who was cash only, and then theyadded debit.
They grew 34% in one month,their average ticket.
That's um that was a it theiraverage ticket grew about $15 at
this particular dispensary.
And then when you add credit,you're growing another 22 to
27%.
So it's also hindering the theamount of revenue this that each
(19:03):
dispensary can can earn.
Um, it's hindering the growthbecause the customers only have
a certain amount of cash onhand.
Um, and say they go to the backto the ATM, they might pull out
$100 and then they go shopping,right?
But when they get to thecounter, the taxes are through
the roof.
And so they might pull take$100 worth of goods, but then
they get to the counter and thetaxes are what 30, 40%, and then
(19:26):
they have to put, you know,goods back because they need to
pay for the taxes.
But if they had our terminal ora terminal at the front, then
they'd be able to, you know, payfor more than the cash they had
on hand.
That makes sense.
So it is really hindering thedispensaries in multiple ways
having these uh paymentregulations.
Ben Larson (19:44):
That sounds like a sales executive's like dream is
to have it's like, how would youlike to have 22% more revenue?
Um yeah.
Are there are there otherbarriers to sales as far as like
getting into thesedispensaries?
Are is there a backendlimitation sometimes, whether
it's like state to state or oror what's yeah, what's the
(20:07):
biggest limiter for expandingyour business into dispensaries?
Aubrey Amatelli (20:10):
Well, I think we we talked about the
beginning, it's just thevolatility of payments, right?
And it's finding solutions thatare reliable.
And when I started the company,I was just so bright-eyed,
like, well, this paymentsolution follows all the funds
flow, is you know, that has aproper MCC code.
Uh there's a compliant fundsflow.
(20:32):
It's not breaking any of theVisa MasterCard rules, right?
Every part of this transaction,every part of this technology
is uh fully compliant.
There's no way it could be shutdown, right?
There's no way the paymentbrands could come and say, this
isn't, you know, you're you'reum running these payments on our
rails because it was a wallettechnology very similar to
Venmo.
(20:52):
But lo and behold, a year and ahalf in, um, the solution was
sunsetted or essentially shutdown by Visa MasterCard.
And we had to transition ourclients to a new payment
solution.
So I think that's that's thehard part in this um in the
payment world is trust from thedispensaries in terms of how
(21:12):
long is this solution going tolast.
And and a lot of times, youknow, the the the most
trustworthy solution is cash oris ultimately debit.
Um debit solutions, cashlessATM runs on those ATM rails.
And that really is thefoundational solution in
payments right now.
But where we really see thegrowth is credit.
Um the younger generation lovesto do the Apple Pay, the Google
(21:36):
Pay, you know, the Tap to Pay.
I don't know the last time Ipulled out a card in my wallet
or even cash, right?
I love using my phone.
And so it, you know, in in theend, um, you know, finding those
unique payment solutions is isour goal, but um earning and
earning the trust of thedispensaries is really the
barrier in in the industry.
Ben Larson (21:57):
It's actually that's been become problematic for me
because I'll go days withoutseeing my wallet.
Yeah, and I'll just end upsomewhere.
I'm like, it actually happenedto me at the airport the other
day.
I was like, I don't have my IDon me.
AnnaRae Grabstein (22:10):
It's it's so crazy because we talk a lot
about normalization.
And in this podcast, we'vetalked to people in all
different parts of the industry.
And and really, this concept ofnormalization and
destigmatizing cannabis.
I haven't really thought abouthow much payments and the
environment of the way that wepay for products affects kind of
(22:31):
ongoing stigma.
But the reality is that theexperience in a dispensary when
it comes to paying for yourtransaction is so substantively
different than the way that therest of us are getting to use
our phones to pay for thingsotherwise.
And I think it surprises peoplea lot and it just reinforces
(22:52):
like you're doing somethingwrong when you're in a
dispensary because now all ofthe other ways that you're used
to paying for things normallyall of a sudden don't work and
you have to do this other thing.
And it just makes people feellike they're doing something
wrong when they're not breakingany laws and it's totally legal
to be there.
It's just that we've got theserestrictions that um are
(23:12):
creating this environment thatis just it occurs to me that it
feels very unfair.
Yeah, it is.
Aubrey Amatelli (23:20):
And and the solutions that we've had to come
out with are, you know, to keepthe dispensaries safe and
compliant, right?
To not break those Visa andMasterCard rules and and to also
keep them safe from fraud andchargebacks and you know, a lot
of risks that it that they faceto take credit cards are are
insane.
Like uh one of the solutions wehave we have in the marketplace
(23:42):
now that is really safe for ourdispensaries requires a
consumer to upload the a pictureof their ID and do a facial
scan recognition in order tomake a payment for cannabis,
right?
To make a payment.
And and consumers are doing itbecause they want to use their
Amex.
But you're right, Anna Ray,it's like that makes me feel a
(24:04):
little like why do I have to dothis just to buy my medicine?
Right?
Why do I have to, you know, uhupload a picture of my ID and do
like a facial scan recognitionto make sure those match just so
that I can buy my medicine?
It's very interesting.
AnnaRae Grabstein (24:20):
Well, so we've been talking about the
dispensary environment, and Ithink that you have insight into
the difference betweenfinancial services and payment
processing kind of across thecannabinoid space.
So I want to dive into thedifference between regulated
state legal adult use cannabispayment processing versus um
(24:43):
hemp.
And then even within the hempreality, um, my understanding is
that there's differencesbetween CBD and Delta 9 and um
and brick and mortar versuse-com.
And there's there's been somereally big news in in the hemp
derived space.
Like Target is now selling hempbeverages in Minnesota.
(25:05):
And it got me thinking aboutlike, well, how do Target's
payment processors feel aboutthis?
So I'd love it if you couldjust crack open this whole
concept of the differencebetween hemp versus cannabis
processing and then help usunderstand the state of payment
processing in the hemp space aswell.
Aubrey Amatelli (25:22):
Yes.
So, you know, hemp is federallylegal.
And so hemp is essentially justconsidered a high-risk payment
uh category, which we love,which I can, you know, go to, we
have a handful of sponsoringbanks who love the hemp, you
know, hemp world, hemp CBD.
(25:43):
We also can do, believe it ornot, cannabis seeds, clones,
psilocybin spores.
So, you know, you can get very,very, very close to the can,
you know, cannabis, but justlike one step removed.
And because it's consideredfederally legal, they don't have
to face any of the regulationsof cannabis.
Uh, we do have to collect, forexample, COAs on every single
(26:07):
product to make sure, you know,that, you know, to evaluate and
the COA has to live on that pageuh of on the e-commerce site to
make sure that, you know, it'sgone through it's uh all of you
know been tested, et cetera, tomake sure it's uh been tested by
the I I don't know exactly howit's tested on the COA side.
I'm not on that technical side,but we collect that.
Ben Larson (26:29):
So the bank has to have on it real has to collect
that and have that.
Aubrey Amatelli (26:34):
We have to collect all this, yeah, we have
to collect all the COAs, have iton file, and we have to share
it with the bank, right?
So the bank really isultimately sponsoring all the
transactions.
So as a payment processor, ourunderwriting team, we work with
the banks, right?
And they they're the sponsorsof the transaction, so they want
to make sure that they have allthe COAs on file along with us
(26:56):
so that it is actually below0.3% THC.
That's what they're lookingfor.
That's the threshold there.
So the hemp beverages in um inMinnesota in Target are below
0.3% THC.
THCA, you know, or Delta 9,Delta 8, they still give you a
little bit of a buzz, right?
(27:18):
Like cannabis, but it's justnot, but it's below 0.3% THC.
So it is kind of that um alittle bit of a loophole that
came out a couple years ago,where a lot of the cannabis
industry decided to, you know,you know, go from growing
cannabis to turn their farmsinto THCA because it had less
(27:40):
regulations and they could allsell it online, right?
So it is a loophole.
And as payment processors,we're able to support those um
those industries uh and givethem uh merchant accounts where
they can sell their THCA, Delta8, Delta 9 online with really,
you know, a very low liftunderwriting process and
(28:01):
approval within you know fivebusiness days.
And then boom, they have ane-commerce store and they're
they're ready to go with withminimal um regulations and
rules.
There are certain states youcan't send to, et cetera.
Um, but we make sure that theyknow all of the rules and and we
monitor their websites actuallydaily uh through different
(28:21):
tools to make sure they'rethey're not um sending to
different states that they'renot allowed to to keep them
protected as well.
Ben Larson (28:28):
It is wild.
I know it breaks a lot ofbrains that we're stuck in this
role in in the dispensary modeland in the in the regulated
space with just like such aconstrained system.
And then because of these lawsthat were passed in the farm
bill, that even without completeguidance from the other federal
(28:48):
agencies, it is just federallylegal and it's just happening.
You mentioned the different youknow, cannabinoid categories
like CBD, Delta 9, um, TCA.
Are there different limitationsthat have occurred for these
different categories, or is itbasically all just treated as
hemp cannabinoids?
Aubrey Amatelli (29:06):
Yes, there are different limitations for each
category.
So um I don't have them allmemorized, but as the company
comes in, depending on whatthey're selling, um, then we
essentially give them or guidethem through their limitations
on where they can and can't sellor ship their product
(29:28):
ultimately based on the Visa andMasterCard rules.
So Visa and MasterCards set therules.
Um, and then we ensure that allof our customers abide by those
rules and guidelines so thatthey don't essentially get in
trouble or what's uh called puton the match list.
A match list is kind of thenaughty list, and if they're put
(29:49):
on the match list, they'refined and they're no longer
allowed to accept uh paymentsfor the indefinite future as a
legal entity or um essentiallyas an owner, they're Security
numbers actually put on thatlist as well.
So they don't want to getcaught on that match list.
Then we guide them through uhthe proper rules to make sure
that they are processingpayments or selling the proper
(30:12):
um, you know, processingpayments correctly.
Ben Larson (30:15):
So yeah, so VSAR MasterCard are interpreting
these kind of shifting state tostate laws that that are kind of
constantly in motion.
Uh exactly.
Do you know if do they publishthose publicly online for people
to see uh just to see whatthey're doing?
They do.
Okay.
Aubrey Amatelli (30:30):
Yeah.
And and we we actually lean onthe bank.
So I I wish I could say ourteam was like constantly looking
at all those uh rules andregulations, but we lean on our
banks.
Um ultimately we go through,you know, our bank sponsors, uh,
we lean on them to when they dothe underwriting, they sweep
through the website, make sureeverything uh looks up to par.
(30:53):
And if it doesn't, uh they letus know, and then we work with
our client to make sure theirwebsite and what they're you
know, what they're doing is isright uh based on right on the
regulations ultimately.
But uh we lean on the bank andthey have a compliance team that
is constantly monitoring therules and regulations so that
all of their customers are up todate.
AnnaRae Grabstein (31:14):
Bringing up banking, I think, is is worth
talking about.
You sit on the banking andfinancial services committee
with NCIA, and and your companyis sort of like a a collaborator
with the banks, like sittingbetween the banks and and the
cannabinoid businesses, be it onthe hemp side or on the
cannabis side.
And we know that the industryhas been pushing for the SAFE
(31:37):
for Safer Banking Act for, Idon't know, is it a decade?
It's like forever, is what itfeels like.
And um, and I think that itwould be interesting to hear
some of your perspective on thebanking environment.
Like, how hard is it still forcannabis companies to get
banking?
Is it actually still hard?
(31:58):
And what's the quality of banksthat are available to
cannabinoid companies today?
Aubrey Amatelli (32:03):
There is a lot more options for banks, for the
dispensaries.
And and the the reason I knowthat is when we have new
customers come in, we alwayshave to collect uh their bank
letter avoided check, right?
So that we're able to deposittheir funds into their bank
account once they come on board.
And I'm seeing new bank namespop up um, you know, every week
(32:24):
or every day, right?
So there are more and morebanks that are coming, uh,
coming to our table, but none ofthem are larger, more
streamlined banks.
Um, and you know, I I thinkthat the the banking, the banks
that do support cannabis still,you know, are are newer, uh like
they don't have the same UI orthe same technology as a JP
(32:46):
Morgan or a B of A or you know,uh uh, you know, they don't have
the same UI like that we need.
For example, Pay Rio, I when Ilaunched the company, I was
looking at Silicon Valley Bankor JP Morgan and I landed on
Fresno First.
I love Fresno First Bank, but Istill am not able to do a Zell,
right?
I'm I have I'm very limited inmy bank, what I'm able to do in
(33:09):
the bank, banking side of thehouse, and it seems very
archaic.
I love the bank and thebankers, but I don't have the
same tools that I think otherbusinesses outside of cannabis
have.
So there's still a strugglewith the uh with the
dispensaries and in the bankingworld uh with much smaller banks
uh today.
Uh but it it there are more andmore banks coming out of the
(33:31):
woodworks that are supportingcannabis, which is great.
Are you seeing B of A and andChase support hemp businesses?
Yes, yes, I am.
Yeah.
So the mainstream businessesare uh for the federally uh
legal products, I am seeing themainstream banks supporting
those.
Ben Larson (33:49):
Oh, interesting.
I did meet someone from Chaseat NBWA last week and actually
have dinner with them tomorrowin the evening.
So uh I'll update you guys onhow that goes.
Aubrey Amatelli (33:59):
There's a there's a fun fact.
So in Canada, uh JP Morgan isone or JP Morgan is one of the
largest payment processors forcannabis uh in Canada.
So I I learned that fun factbecause it is federally legal in
Canada.
So, you know, I think thateveryone's just kind of waiting
(34:19):
until the federal legalizationand the the big banks will will
jump on board.
It'll still be very high, youknow, considered high risk.
But I thought that was veryinteresting.
Uh that in Canada, JP Morgan isa big supporter of of the
cannabis market.
Ben Larson (34:34):
So you've been at this for for some time now, and
you you're watching thisevolution, you're watching more
banks and more services come in.
We've been through multiplewaves of safe banking, I think
maybe 10 and also reschedulingand all that kind of stuff.
I'm curious, as an entrepreneurin the space, as someone that's
tracking this from yourperspective, like what and when
(34:57):
is like the next big shift?
Like what is the next big winfor for your segment of the
industry?
Aubrey Amatelli (35:06):
I don't foresee federal legalization coming
anytime soon.
I thought it was coming, youknow, about a year ago.
I was thinking it was comingsoon, but I I do I do think
we're quite a ways out.
Um, but what Patrio, we stilllove to, you know, we still
support dispensaries everysingle day, but a big shift of
ours has been over to, you know,supporting the the federally
(35:30):
legal market.
So our e-commerce business hasgrown tremendously, supporting
the hemp side of the house.
We've really grown in that inthat realm because uh believe it
or not, cannabis payments hasbeen, you know, very calm.
There hasn't been a lot ofuproar or shutdowns in cannabis
(35:50):
payments over the last 12 uhplus months in terms of, you
know, as I mentioned, debit isthe foundational product of
cannabis.
It's been very solid andtrustworthy.
And so dispensaries are happy,happily processing.
Uh credit card payments arestill the nut to crack there.
Uh, so we have solutions thatuh we're bringing to the market,
but uh dispense, those arecredit card processing is a nice
(36:13):
to have now.
Uh when it used to be we reallywant to have that to grow our
business.
So credit card processing is acherry on top.
So I think the opportunity hasreally shifted into the hemp
market and and uh growing, youknow, growing that uh that
market in the e-commerce side.
Um we also, believe it or not,peptides uh has been a really
(36:33):
fast-growing hot topic inpayments recently uh because
peptides were recently regulatedby the federal government.
So they used to be able toprocess payments normally, like
any other industry, uh likehemp, um, but then they were
regulated.
And now only research peptidesare allowed to run through the
(36:54):
Visa MasterCard Rails.
So a lot of B2C peptidecompanies were shut off by their
payment processors and arelooking for unique solutions in
payments.
And luckily, Payrio hasalternative ways to process
payments because we've learnedthem from cannabis.
So peptides has been a reallyfast growing uh industry for us
(37:14):
as well.
Ben Larson (37:15):
Wow, that was not what I expected.
AnnaRae Grabstein (37:20):
It's so interesting, the entrepreneur's
journey, and you really are one.
Um, and I think that it wouldbe fun to talk about your
journey of starting this paymentsolution in this high-risk
space.
I know that you are self-fundedthe company.
Uh, you have celebratedpublicly that you are profitable
(37:41):
in under a year, woman-ledcompany or a single mom of
three.
It's like, what what pushed youto take the leap and start
Payrio?
Aubrey Amatelli (37:51):
So I before I answer this question, Anna Ray,
you know, I was just rememberinguh you were one of the very
first faces that I ever met uhafter starting Pay Rio.
So I just want to thank you forum just being that smiling face
in that very first Canopaquemeeting in San Francisco when I
remember I started the company.
(38:13):
I heard of a cannabis event inSan Francisco, I had no clients,
I, you know, barely I had thisidea and barely a product, and I
was so scared driving over theBay Bridge from Danville going
to that event in San Francisco,not knowing anybody.
And you were there and wetalked, and I am so thankful to
(38:33):
be here, you know, over threeyears later, and thank you for
you know supporting me thiswhole time, you know, this whole
time.
So I really appreciate you.
I just wanted to, I was justthinking like you were one of
the the first faces that I evermet in cannabis.
So thank you for that.
Um, but how did I start this?
(38:53):
I you know, I I spent so muchtime at JP Morgan and I
absolutely loved it, but I wasgetting the itch to leave after
10, 11 years.
And growing up in the SiliconValley, I feel like, you know, I
wanted to get back into thestartup world.
Startups were always, you know,in my in my blood, and and my
kids were older.
(39:14):
So I took the leap of faith andum took an opportunity to be
the chief revenue officer at afintech um outside of JP Morgan
and my the whole JP Morganfamily was super supportive of
me, uh, of me doing that.
Um, that company uh was a greatexperience.
It was a payment company aswell, working in the accounting
(39:34):
and law vertical.
Um, but I was the only femalein the entire C-suite and board
at that company.
And um, I learned that I hadlearned had a very valuable um
education at JP Morgan and whatI learned there was super
valuable at a startup, right?
I had a lot of great ideas fromJP Morgan, and a lot of what I
(39:56):
learned there I could bring intoa small startup and really help
it grow.
Um, however, I also learnedthat um I also being the only
female there, um, you know, Ijust didn't get treated the way
I that I should have.
Uh, and I didn't have very goodexperience with that CEO and
ultimately um had to leave thecompany.
(40:17):
Um, and at that time, I justknew that I wanted to start my
own company that was reallysupportive of women in business,
and I wanted to uh just be afemale entrepreneur and show
other women that they could doit too.
And so that's why I started PayRio was that kind of out of
that experience of um, you know,if I couldn't be the change at
(40:39):
a company that was very maledominated, I thought maybe I
could just be the change and doit myself.
So that's why Pay Rio wasstarted.
Uh, we do employ a very largeuh majority women, a lot of
stay-at-home moms andstay-at-home parents, so that it
can give them the opportunityto support their families as
well.
Um, and it's just been awonderful experience so far uh
(41:04):
and self-funded because I don'tknow, I just didn't know how to
go out and get funding.
And you know, all I knew waslike I started it by doing
hundreds of you know 100 coldcalls a day, and that's really
how I started the business, andit grew from there.
Ben Larson (41:17):
Wow.
So that's that's an incrediblejourney.
And I'm I'm getting the sensethat this is also infused into
the branding.
Pay Rio is known for its brightpink and bright blue, like we
see you guys walking aroundconferences.
Uh last week we had UncleArnie's on and we talked about
their branding and how it waskind of swimming contra flow to
(41:37):
to the standard in in thatcategory.
This also, I mean, Pay Rio isnot what you would expect to see
when looking at financialservices companies.
And so, can you talk a littlebit about the motivation behind
the brand and then also how it'sresonated over the last few
years as as you've built out theoffering?
Aubrey Amatelli (41:56):
Yeah, so I I wanted Pay Rio to be uh again
more feminine and approachableas a payment company.
I feel like payments aren'treally talked about, not really
exciting.
So thank you for overlistening, right?
It's not a very exciting topic.
I mean, I didn't care aboutwhat happened after I swipe my
(42:17):
card.
You know, I didn't care aboutthose milliseconds, you know,
from the time I swiped my cardfrom an approval.
But now I live and breathethose milliseconds.
I talk about them all the dayor all the time, every single
day.
Um, so I wanted Pey Rio to bevery approachable and it's
really just an extension of me.
Uh, Rio is actually mydaughter's name.
So it's my youngest of three.
(42:38):
That's her name.
Uh, and I I like the brightpink, and the blue comes from
water, right?
Rio River, and uh and justwanted to to have a little bit
of fun with the brand because itwas just me at the start.
So uh how could I have fun andand make it uh where people
wanted to hopefully reach outand and work with us?
(42:59):
Uh the pink and blue was justbecause I needed a hat to go to
MJ BizCon.
I needed some sort of swag toget to MJ BizCon three years ago
uh where people would noticeus.
And then um, that first MJBizcon, we got a ton of comments
on the hat and it just kind ofstuck.
So now it's a requirement.
Every time we go out to aconference, we wear the pink and
(43:21):
blue hats.
But it's worked.
Um, we really started from agrassroots standpoint going to
local and regional and nationalevents.
Um, we are very involved in thecommunity in in terms of
cannabis.
I'm really passionate about theplant.
Um, I'm passionate about thecommunity.
(43:42):
Uh we're we're part of it allaround the country, wherever our
reps are, they are part of allthe local events.
And that's how we started isreally from the grassroots
standpoint.
And and my goal was just wordof mouth, um, treating our
customers right.
Hopefully they'll recommend usto the next.
So from a marketing standpoint,our budget was those hats.
(44:04):
Um, and then my and Chase, mypart-time marketing guy,
part-time sales guy.
But ultimately, that's themaximum marketing we've done.
And um, I just, you know, mygoal is just to do really great
work and treat our customersright and treat my employees
right and and you know,organically grow from there.
I love it.
Ben Larson (44:22):
I love it.
AnnaRae Grabstein (44:23):
It's awesome.
You know, your your storyreminds me of that, like within
the pain and suffering thatcannabis is because of all of
the regulations and complexityof being federally illegal, it
also presents opportunities forentrepreneurs.
And I think that that's one ofthe things that Ben and I have
loved so much about building incannabis too, is that you know,
(44:44):
if if cannabis had beenfederally legal since the
beginning, there wouldn't havebeen an opportunity for you to
start Payrio.
It just would have been gobbledup by Square and any other like
massive, huge company that'sout there would have served the
space.
And so because of theseterrible, messed up
restrictions, it's like peoplethat really have fight in their
(45:06):
spirit and are willing to dosomething that very few other
people will do, start businessesin this space and try to create
something that matters.
And that it's kind of like it'swhat keeps me coming back time
and time again, is it's thatrebel spirit of the cannabis
entrepreneur.
And and whether it's with likea grower or product manufacturer
(45:26):
or a payment provider, likethere's this thread that I see
between us all, and I certainlysee it in you and hearing the
story.
So it's it's just really coolto hear.
Thank you.
Aubrey Amatelli (45:36):
I know we all have fight, don't we?
Right.
And we're all fighting for thesame same thing.
And soon we'll we'll get there,right?
But as an entrepreneur, it is afight no matter what industry
we are.
But I am the plant just has somany gifts to give all of us,
right?
And that's why we we stick itout.
Yeah.
Ben Larson (45:54):
I so you mentioned your daughter and and the
namesake of the company.
Um curious just what thisjourney's been like as a mom of
three children and andnavigating space and kind of
having that be a part of yourpersonal brand.
Like, what has that journeybeen like for you?
Uh coming out of JP Morgan,something where it's like, oh,
(46:15):
very, you know, very wellrespected, very, very straight
laced to cannabis industry.
Yeah, see, the perfect timing,perfect timing.
They're coming for you.
Aubrey Amatelli (46:27):
Yeah, I know, I know.
You know, that that was veryinteresting.
The coming out on LinkedIn wasa big deal uh for me.
It was like I was very nervous.
Okay, you know, I'm I'm readyto come out on LinkedIn.
The majority of, you know, 80%of my connections on LinkedIn
have been a decade plus of my JPMorgan, you know, payments and
(46:50):
all of my customers at JPMorgan, et cetera.
How is that going to be whenI'm saying I'm launching a
cannabis payment company?
Um, but I was excited, I wasproud of what I was doing, and I
was ready.
Um, I went came out on LinkedInand I had dozens and dozens of
DMs from you know cheerleadersat JP Morgan and all my
(47:10):
colleagues saying, I use thissleep gummy at night or I grow
cannabis here or I make cookies,can you help me?
And it was, I was so um, youknow, I was so welcomed by my JP
Morgan community.
And, you know, I I was soscared, but it was it's actually
this, I just been so acceptit's been I've been so accepted
(47:32):
uh since coming out.
So it's you know, maybe I'm ina little bubble, maybe we're in
a bubble in California, and andI'm I'm I'm grateful for that.
But uh it has, I haven't reallyfaced that many hardships.
Um, you know, my kids are Idon't my kids just talk about it
as a medicine.
Uh, you know, I've we have sixplants, uh not the last summer,
(47:55):
but a couple summers before.
I've we've grown six plantssince COVID, uh, you know, our
regulated amount in the backyardjust for fun.
Uh, we have a garden with abunch of other vegetables as
well.
Uh so it's been normalized withmy with my kids as well.
So um, yeah, everyone seems tobe really happy and supportive.
I think that, you know, everyas a single mom, um, they this
(48:16):
is the way I'm providing for myfamily and um, you know, and and
providing for my employees andjust creating opportunities and
jobs.
And so how can you not supportthat, if that makes sense?
Ben Larson (48:29):
Man, I I you and Anna or A are living parallel
lives, farmer, entrepreneur,banker, mother.
AnnaRae Grabstein (48:36):
It's this funny thing.
Like, I at school events andthings, if I tell people that
I'm in cannabis, I feel likeit's this funny invitation that
I'm not actually inviting, butthat people think it's an
invitation of like, oh, you'resafe.
Now I'm gonna tell you aboutall of my recreational recogies
that I do on the weekends, I dowith my friends.
And I'm like, whoa, I do I dobusiness strategy in cannabis.
(49:00):
I'm not a drug dealer, butlike, thank you.
Aubrey Amatelli (49:06):
It's like they think you're a dispensary all
the summer, you know?
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:10):
Yeah, like product, a product reviewer and
and kind of like a plug.
And I'm like, nope, not theplug, but uh, but thanks so much
for recognizing that I am anaccepting person that is not
going to judge you for what youchoose to do on your off hours,
right?
Aubrey Amatelli (49:26):
Exactly.
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:29):
I don't know.
Does that happen to dads aswell then at school when you
tell people that you're incannabis?
Ben Larson (49:34):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've I've gotten lots ofpositive feedback.
I've been invited to raves,I've definitely been asked uh if
I have a connect.
So and generally the answer isyes.
Aubrey Amatelli (49:47):
I mean, we we we we do, right?
AnnaRae Grabstein (49:50):
Um amazing.
Well, this has been so fun,Aubrey.
I think that it's really it'sit's been enlightening for me,
honestly, to think about thispart of the business in a way
that we don't often.
And I I think that it willprobably benefit a lot of our
listeners out there.
Um and we're towards the end ofthe hour.
So it's time for our last call.
And this is your chance to givea final message to our
(50:13):
listeners, advice, a call toaction, or a closing thought.
So you let us know.
What's your last call?
Aubrey Amatelli (50:18):
My last call really, you know, that comes to
mind right now is just thesupport of, you know, female
entrepreneurs and women incannabis.
I don't know, that just came upto me, you know, um, just
looking, you know, the way thatyou supported me uh since the
beginning.
Um, you know, it's a fightbeing a female entrepreneur and
a female in business.
(50:39):
Um, and there's so many amazingwomen out there pushing in the
in the cannabis industry.
Um, I know Leah Sherry doesNORCAL Women in Cannabis.
Um, but it just in general,like uh being a female founder
and seeing other women incannabis uh supporting their
business, liking their posts,uh, working with women in
(51:00):
cannabis, uh it's just anotherway to help lift us all up.
Um and just recommendrecommending women, I think is
really important.
Um it's just been a really bigreason.
It has been the reason why Istarted Pay Rio.
Um I want other women to knowthat you know they can do it
too.
Um, that I I've done it, youknow, and we can all do it too.
(51:22):
And I and it it takes um ittakes a village, but um it's
really incredible to have womenlike you, Anna Ray.
I know Jocelyn's another onewho was there at that day, and
and those are two you are twofaces and two women who've been
there um supporting me from thebeginning, and I hope that I can
be um an inspiration or asupport to women in the future.
(51:44):
So um I guess that's my closingthought is just to keep pushing
and supporting women incannabis because uh we we all
are uh working really hard tomake our way, and uh, there's a
very small percentage ofentrepreneurs in in technology
in my space, but uh especiallyin in the cannabis space as
well.
Awesome.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:05):
So cool.
Yes, transact with women.
Um yes, please.
Important.
Hell yes.
I love it.
Ben Larson (52:11):
Support your women in weed.
All right, yes, yes, AubreyAmitelli, founder and CEO of
Payrio.
Thank you so much for spendingthe last hour with us.
It was really great.
I hope you enjoy the sunshinein Santa Barbara.
A little bit jealous, but I'lllet you be off the hook with it.
All right, talk to you soon.
(52:31):
Anna Ray, you're soinfluential.
I love it.
Such a badass.
AnnaRae Grabstein (52:38):
Oh, that was really interesting.
I like really thought aboutsome things I hadn't in a little
while.
How about you?
Ben Larson (52:44):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I I take payments for grantedand I spend a lot of time, you
know, in the in the normal worldat grocery stores and all that,
and it it does uh catch you bysurprise when you walk into the
dispensary, especially one thatisn't outfitted with the payment
services.
It's like, oh man, I have to goto the ATM.
And again, I'm left looking formy wallet because it's probably
(53:04):
left in the car or something,or at home even.
And so it's a big hurdle.
Those numbers are startling22%.
AnnaRae Grabstein (53:11):
Yeah, crazy.
Ben Larson (53:13):
What do you think, folks?
Tell us what you think.
Engage, leave comments, share,follow, subscribe, do all the
things.
Thank you to our friends atVirtosa and Wolfmeyer, and our
producer, Eric Rossetti.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please drop us a review on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, orwherever you listen to your
show.
And finally, folks, staycurious, stay informed, and most
(53:36):
importantly, keep your spiritshigh.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com