May 24, 2021 • 63 mins
High Visibility is a podcast, exhibition, and publication series produced by Art of the Rural and Plains Art Museum that welcomes into conversation artists, culture bearers, and leaders from across rural America and Indian Country. We are grateful for the support of the Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts and the National Endowment for the Arts.
Today we have the chance to speak with Su Legatt, and to learn more about how her upbringing in rural Minnesota, and her experiences as an artist and advocate for rural communities, have shaped her recent work and her sense of where we are headed in both the national conversation on rural culture and in the current forms of support and visibility available to rural artists.
We have a chance in this conversation to see these ideas intersect across her work, notably in her recent series Dish – which celebrates the forms of generational knowledge, local culture, and personal creativity present in the Midwestern potluck. The events, and the subsequent Dish book all offer, in Su’s words, an opportunity to “bring people together for intimate exchange and the preservation of private moments” and to “collectively build a more complex and complete understanding of Minnesota identity while building new connections and strengthening existing networks.”
Along the way here, Su also shares her work in Advice from Minnesota Grandmothers, which shares some similarities with the Dish events, in that she presents another element of rural everyday life – in this case the crocheted doily – and offers it as a vessel for a much deeper channel of generational knowledge. Like Dish, it defamiliarizes our associations to objects and practices that we might initially dismiss or overlook. After being with this work, we find surprising bridges between cultures, and some powerful expressions of vulnerability and intimacy, that emerge from these materials.
Su Legatt is an artist, educator, and community organizer. Her photography, installation, and social practice projects explore the quiet, often unnoticed, individual moments of every day life. Su utilizes a variety of community engagement techniques and crowd sourcing methods to create opportunities for participants to share with others in the hopes of creating what she describes as “micro moments of empathy.”
Su is a graduate of Minnesota State University Moorhead and Utah State University and she has taught photography, digital media, and professional development courses at Lake Superior College, Minnesota State University Moorhead, and North Dakota State University and a wide variety of workshops throughout the United States.
She works with various non-profit organizations to organize and create cultural events that help to improve the social structures and relations within each community. As an Arts and Culture Commissioner for the city of Moorhead, Minnesota Ms. Legatt works with legislators, non and for profit organizations, and local artists to support and strengthen the role of the region’s creative community.
Artist photograph above by Amanda Fechtner
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matthew Fluharty (00:06):
Hello, you're listening to High
Visibility.
This is a podcast produced byArt of the Rural and Plains Art
Museum that welcomes intoconversation artists, culture
bearers and leaders from acrossrural America and Indian
Country.
It's offered in conjunction withHigh Visibility, a
(00:27):
collaboratively curatedexhibition, currently on view at
Plains Art Museum through May 302021. My name is Matthew
Fluharty, and I'm the organizingcurator.
In the months ahead, I'll bewith you, along with other hosts
from the Plains Art Museum.
As we share the richly divergentstories lived experiences
visions of folks across thecontinent.
(00:52):
You can learn more about thehigh visibility exhibition by
heading to plains art.org.
We also welcome folks to checkout the high visibility site
inhighvisibility.org, where weoffer show notes and
transcriptions alongside furtherinformation on the individuals
and work discussed here.
Also, depending on the podcastplatform, one can view and
(01:15):
directly link to artists workwhile following along to the
conversation.
We're grateful for the supportof the Andy Warhol Foundation
for the Visual Arts and theNational Endowment for the Arts
in making this endeavorpossible. And we welcome folks
to check out and subscribe tothese conversations on their
favorite podcast platforms.
(01:37):
Today we have the chance tospeak with Su Legatt and to
learn more about how herupbringing in rural Minnesota
and her experiences as an artistand advocate for rural
communities have shaped her workand her sense of where we're
headed. And both the nationalconversation on rural culture
and in the current forms ofsupport and visibility that are
(01:57):
available to rural artists. Wehave a chance in this
conversation to see these ideasintersect across her work,
notably in her recent seriesDish, which celebrates the forms
of generational knowledge, localculture, and personal creativity
present in the Midwesternpotluck.
The events and the subsequentdish book all offer in Su's
(02:21):
words, an opportunity to "bringpeople together for intimate
exchange in the preservation ofprivate moments, and to
collectively build a morecomplex and complete
understanding of Minnesotaidentity while bringing new
connections and strengtheningexisting networks."
(02:41):
Along the way here, Su alsoshares her work in Advice from
Minnesota Grandmothers, whichshare some similarities with
additions and that she presentsanother element of rural
everyday life. In this case, thecrocheted doily and offers it as
a vessel for a much deeperchannel of generational
knowledge.
(03:01):
Like Dish defamiliarizes ourassociations to objects and
practices we might initiallydismiss or overlook.
After being with this work, wefind surprising bridges between
cultures, and some powerfulexpressions of vulnerability and
intimacy that emerge from thesematerials.
(03:22):
Su Legatt is an artist, educatorand community organizer. Her
photography, installation andsocial practice projects explore
the quiet, often unnoticedindividual moments of everyday
life. Su utilizes a variety ofcommunity engagement techniques
and crowdsourcing methods tocreate opportunities for
(03:44):
participants to share withothers in the hopes of creating
what she describes as micromoments of empathy. Su was a
graduate of Minnesota StateUniversity, Morehead and Utah
State University and she'staught photography, digital
media and professionaldevelopment courses at Lake
Superior college, MinnesotaState University, Morehead and
(04:08):
North Dakota State University.
Su works with various nonprofitorganizations to organize and
create cultural events that helpto improve the social structures
and relations within eachcommunity. As an Arts and
Culture Commissioner for thecity of Morehead, Minnesota, Su
works with legislators non andfor profit organizations, and
local artists to support andstrengthen the role of the
(04:32):
region's creative community. Sowithout further ado, please get
comfortable enjoy ourconversation with Su Leggett.
Su, welcome to high visibility.
Su Legatt (04:44):
Thanks for having me.
Matthew Fluharty (04:46):
It's a real honor to have have you with us
today. Andjust to have the space to settle
in, to think about your work,your artistic practice where
you're coming fromAnd a couple questions around
how the arts and culture fieldand maybe how the broader
(05:09):
cultural conversation hasoriented itself around questions
of social practice art,community based work in the last
couple of years, I'm reallygrateful for the chance for us.
Just kind of have a conversationand see where it goes around
these questions. So, Su, maybeto begin, where did you grow up?
What were some of the earlyexperiences, maybe some of the
(05:31):
early influences that weremarkers on the beginning of your
creative journey?
Su Legatt (05:40):
Yeah, so I, I'm about as Minnesotan as they come. I
was born in Little Falls. But Igrew up five miles outside of a
tiny town called flensburg. Itis still there, although it's
pretty much just a church in abar at this point, which I think
a lot of small towns inMinnesota, kind of boil down to
(06:03):
a church and a bar and somehouses. So we were there for
probably my first three or fouryears, bounced around a little
bit long prairie and theneventually we settled in perm,
which is in lakes country, closeto Detroit Lakes. Why Deena,
that sort of area stayed thereuntil I graduated high school, I
(06:24):
went to college in Morehead.
When you talk about earlyexperiences, all of my earliest
memories involve being outside.
In the dirt, we were a dairyfarming family. So picking
rocks, and being in the field,my job was to steer the tractor
or the truck through the fieldas my brothers and my dad would
(06:49):
load it with hay or whatever, Iactually do have a memory of
sitting on my mom's lap in thetractor while we were spreading
fertilizer. And she would Ialmost don't even know if I
should say this.
Whatever it was 35 years ago,she would fall asleep and I
would steer it, I just had todrive it straight across the
(07:11):
field. And she because she wasso tired, she would be asleep
and I'd be sitting on her lapand I just had to go straight
and we got to the end, I had towake her up and she would turn
it and then she would doze offagain, I would steer it straight
across the field and wake herup. That was the reality of the
early 80s. The woman had fourtiny children. Safety was
different back then.
(07:35):
But it was that those two thingskind of go that story goes hand
in hand. Two points with it wasit was outdoors. It was a harder
life. You had to really work butalso you had to you grew up fast
and you had to earn your keep weI know we had an allowance when
we were growing up. But I don'tremember getting the allowance.
(07:55):
We just had chores as a part ofbeing members of the family. It
wasn't like we were paid to pullour weight we worked because
that's what you did. You had toearn you were a member of the
family, you made a mess, youcleaned up your mess, you know.
So even when we moved off thefarm, we moved off the farm when
(08:17):
I was about nine. And we movedto a house on a lake because we
were in Lake Country and perm.
It was funny because we didn'thave a farm anymore, but it
still felt like a farm or my momhad the massive vegetable
garden. And we had to pull weedsout of the off the beach. And we
(08:38):
had to pull the seaweed or wehad to pull the weeds out of the
lake because my dad didn't wantweeds in the lake.
Matthew Fluharty (08:47):
Make sense?
Right.
Su Legatt (08:50):
So my parents still like their tiny little yard
their plot of land was stillvery much treated like a farm.
And my dad when we wereteenagers would loan us out to
the local farmers to help thembring in their hay and whatever
chores they needed done. We werelent out to help them with their
(09:10):
chores. So we still felt likefarm kids even though we weren't
living on the farm. I'm reallygrateful for that because it
taught you how to appreciatewhat you had. And you didn't
take anything for granted andyou really built relationships.
So hearing
Matthew Fluharty (09:27):
you describe that early memory of sitting on
your mother's lap. Is that oneof your earliest most formative
memories.
Su Legatt (09:37):
I think my earliest memory was in my parents
bedroom. My mom was gettingready to go out. I have this
memory of my mom putting onmakeup and getting ready to go
out and I was begging her for myown. I can't remember if it was
I wanted my own crayons or myown Legos because I didn't want
(09:59):
to shareWith my brothers anymore, I
didn't want to share with mysiblings, I wanted my own. And
she was like, No, that's justnot gonna ever happen.
And I was so upset.
But it also says in my baby bookthat I always broke my crayons,
because I pushed too hard.
Matthew Fluharty (10:18):
An early warning sign of what's ahead.
Su Legatt (10:21):
very passionate about my coloring.
It's I think that was myearliest memory. And I told him
that because I was describing itto my mom one time and the room
that we were in and she said,there's no way you could
remember that because you wereprobably only two. Because she
said that was the bedroom atthis, this house and you were
probably only two years old.
There's no way you can rememberthat. That's amazing. I mean,
it's amazing how memory works.
(10:44):
fascinated by memory. So much ofmy work is focuses on memory and
deals with memory. Let me askyou a question about memory. And
this was a little bit of where Iwas going around thinking about
your earliest, most formativememories, because though I
didn't grew up in Minnesota, Igrew up in Appalachian Ohio, but
grew up on a farm, and also grewup on a farm that my parents had
(11:09):
to leave. You know, so yourmemories made me think about the
1980s. And what the 1980s lookedlike for many farming families,
certainly across the Midwest,where
Matthew Fluharty (11:23):
I think although we grew up in different
regions of the continent, I alsoexperienced that feeling of
leaving a farm and movingsomewhere else. And that kind of
adaptation that a family goesthrough, and that a person goes
through just when you're you'vemoved and the relationship to
the land is different.
And I guess what I'm wondering,Why think is two things.
(11:49):
I feel like the work in therural arts and cultural field
has really to profoundly dwellon what the 1980s meant to many
rural communities, and howradical the shifts were, in many
cases, how tragic they were.
Su Legatt (12:05):
When the white settlers
acquired land, illegally,horribly, through the government
through the Homestead Act, whenit was taken by the US
government from the NativeAmerican peoples. When they
acquired that land, it became amulti generational system where
(12:26):
they passed it down from parentto child, again, and again and
again. So farming became aculture, it became something
that was ingrained in thesociety and within their family.
That's for a lot of people.
That's all they knew. That's allthey knew how to do. And when
the large farms and the megafarms started to form in the
(12:50):
80s, wiping out that independentsingle family farmers,
they didn't know what to do.
They didn't know anything else.
And so now you have these peoplewho have to completely start
over, they don't knowwhat to do next, my dad ended up
starting a trucking company. Heactually just retired in
(13:13):
January. Like after 40, someyears, he just retired, and he
was able to make a go of it. Butto this day, if you asked him he
would have preferred to justkeep farming because he was
really good at it. He wasshowing cattle and winning
awards, and he had the highestproducing dairy farm in the
state of Minnesota, in 1983. Orwhatever your it was. He was an
(13:37):
award winning dairy farmer. Soit was more than just having to
change jobs or having to changecareers, there was a massive
cultural shift. It is ingrainedin our language, the difference
between supper and dinner, thereis a difference between supper
and dinner. It's not just hot,like you choose to say one word
(13:59):
or the other. So they're there.
It's ingrained in the culture.
And I think we're even seeing ittoday. I mean, the American diet
is something all on its own. Andit's something that has to be
addressed. But when we talkabout being a meat and potatoes,
kind of family, there's a reasonwhy
(14:20):
American farmer eats meat andpotatoes because they're out in
the field physical labor. Allday long. They have to have that
high calorie food, when you takethem out of that lifestyle and
put them into a desk job orsomething that doesn't require
(14:41):
that manual labor, but the foodis still part of their culture,
and still what they're going toeat. We end up with these high
obesity rates or these dietsthat don't fit our current
lifestyle and there's atransitional period that has to
happen and we're in that rightnow. So I
I get what you're saying, likewe're in this transitional
(15:02):
period where we're trying tofigure out how, what is our
culture now, what are wesupposed to be doing when in
rural America, the lifestylethat
white settlers had for 150 yearsis no more, what is supposed to
happen next. And there's aconflict that we're seeing
(15:24):
between the food that we eat andthe language that we use against
our daily practices and the jobsthat we have, and the clothing
that we wear. And there's thisodd combination or conflict that
we're seeing. And I think peopleare sorting that out.
(15:45):
Which is fascinating to me.
There's a deeper story to betold. I mean, that's part of
what is resonating with me andwhat you just shared two and a
deeper story that in thismoment, folks far beyond rural
communities, I think would liketo hear. And as we make sense of
the ever evolving, politicalmoment we're in, we need to hear
(16:08):
this conversation. Yeah, Iagree. And I was it was it
popped into my head thismorning. It was, I don't know
what it's like for you. But I,I'm one of those people that
have these random thoughts forthis morning, I had to go to
Target and pick up something andjust out of the blue, a thought
popped into my head, like, Iwonder how to address this
juxtaposition between thisfascination with romanticizing
(16:33):
the rural, where it is anescape, you go to the rural for
respite and for recovery, of aglorification of the country,
and how it's going to give yousalvation and relaxation and all
that. But at the same time, thepeople there are Hokie on
(16:53):
educated, there's that archetypeof the rural being,
how it's depicted in movies andTV shows, and the way that the
rural is thought about. Andagain, this is a generalization,
but the way that it's depictedby Hollywood, or the way that
(17:14):
it's thought about by the theurban cultures
seems to be in direct conflictwith itself, where it's both the
salvation but also something tobe mocked. And that I'm just,
I've just that popped into myhead today. I'm like, I wonder
how they think about that? Or dothey think about that, like, how
(17:37):
does that resolve itself? I gotI want to have that conversation
with a Hollywood producer. Howdo you
balance that? One of the moviesthat I actually really enjoy, I
find fascinating and hilariousis Tucker and Dale vs. Evil.
Because it flips that script.
Where do you know this movie? Idon't know. Okay, so Tucker and
(18:00):
Dale are, I think it actuallytake place in Appalachia, so you
might appreciate it. But Tuckerand Dale are these two average
guys who their dream comes true,where they're able to purchase a
cabin out in the woods for theirhunting cabin, and they're going
out one weekend, they're goingto fix it up. But then there's
these college kids who are goingto go camping. And because of
(18:23):
the stereotype they have intheir head of the country
bumpkin and movies likedeliverance. They're convinced
Tucker and Dale are going to tryto kill them. And because of
their own ignorance, they gothrough the series of mishaps
and harm themselves, convincedthat it's Tucker and Dale,
(18:44):
harming them, when Tucker andDale are constantly trying to
help them. And they're like, whyare they hurting themselves?
What is wrong with these collegekids? And it's, I mean, it's
funny and ridiculous, but at thesame time, I watched this movie
going.
Exactly why? Why are they stillconvinced? And you and I saw
(19:10):
this when we were in Chicago.
For that conference, we had theconversation before our panel
where like, we know, we're goingto be asked, we know we're going
to be asked because our panelwas on on the rural social
practice in the ruralcommunities, when we're
presenting on on a conference onpower in Chicago.
(19:32):
And we knew it was in 2016. Andwe knew we were going to be
asked about the 2016 election.
And we wereand part of it was that just
knowing we were going to beasked about have like What's it
like being an artist in a ruralcommunity? Like somehow that's
something we should be afraidof?
Matthew Fluharty (19:57):
Yeah, so I'm really grateful that you
mentionedThat time that we were together
and open engagement in Chicagofor folks who are less involved
in the social practice, part ofarts and cultural conversation,
open engagement isone of the most preeminent
national and internationalgatherings for folks doing
(20:17):
social practice work.
And my experience there, but myexperience in the immediate
aftermath of the 2016 electionwas that
it felt like there was a kind ofchasm.
(20:38):
And on one side was the reallyhighly developed conversation
around social practice, you caneven add community based work in
there.
You know, by that point in 2016,there were a university programs
on this, there's so many books,it's a practice that really had
gained a lot of traction in thearts and cultural conversation.
So on one side was that chasm.
And then the other side was,like, You turned on a light
(21:04):
switch after the Novemberelection, and suddenly, folks
were asking, what is happeningin rural America? What are the
conditions on the ground inrural places. And what was
really striking to me was like,This chasm is really
complicated, because on onehand, you have the ways you
spoke of before that ruralplaces have been, and we're
(21:26):
being represented in popularculture and in the media. And
like, those very forms areerased the racial, cultural
geographic, the historicaldifference that was there. Like
what I thought about in themoment, immediately after that
(21:46):
election, is that this is afield in a body of work, that is
pitch directly towards the kindsof conversations and social
change that could occur out of ashared cultural imperative. Yet,
so little of the work that wastaking place outside of cities
was even visible in that field.
(22:11):
And so I wonder, like, if that'sattention that you have
experienced, like, as yourjourney has progressed? And just
like, if that was attention thatyou felt as well, in that moment
in the year since?
Su Legatt (22:22):
Yeah. So around 2016.
And leading up to 2016, I wouldsay, from 2016 to two or 2012,
to 2016.
social practice was a hot topic,it was one of those words that
if you dropped, like on a grantapplication, people sat up a
little bit taller, you know, oh,social practice today, it's
(22:46):
placemaking. Ooh, creative.
placemaking. Oh, I'm interested,tell me more. The downside is,
okay, in every field, there arebad practitioners. There just
are there are people who aredoing the work, who don't really
know what they're doing, whensomething becomes popular, that
number increases, becausethey're riding the wave. The
(23:10):
problem with that in socialpractice, or community
engagement work, is that it canhurt people, it can hurt
communities. And what Ifind troublesome
is the lack of accountabilitythat is placed on
(23:37):
organizations and on creatives,the people or the organizations
who sweep into a community andsay, we're going to do this for
you. And they do it and thenthey leave, and then the
community is going, Okay.
Now what, we have this highmaintenance thing, or we have
(24:00):
this thing that we didn't askfor really doesn't help us in
any way, or now we have to takecare of who's gonna pay for that
it doesn't really get to theheart of what they actually
need. One of my heroes, or oneof my role models is Suzanne
Lacy. She has a bit of a trackrecord of being invited by
(24:24):
institutions or organizations togo into a community to do a
certain project or to dosomething that they want her to
do. And then when she getsthere, she says, you know, I've
talked to them, and we're goingto do this. Instead, I've talked
to them. This is what they'retelling me, and they're going to
guide the ship. And the one ofthe things that people who
(24:47):
choose to do social practicework very early on, I think
struggle with a lot is the ideaof letting go of authorship.
They say I have an idea. I wantto do this project and they go
into community.
They say, I'm going to do thisfor you. And no matter how much
the community says, No, thanks.
That's cool, not interested.
(25:08):
They go, No, no, no, it's good.
It's good. You want it, trustme, trust me, trust me. And they
push and push and push, insteadof going, oh. And the problem is
that you shouldn't go intocommunity saying, I'm going to
do this for you, you should gointo community saying, What can
I do for you? How can I be ofservice to you? I have a certain
set of skills, I have a certainnetwork. I'm curious about you.
(25:32):
Tell me your story. Let me learnfrom you. So a project like
dish, for example. I'minterested in hearing the
stories from these communitymembers. So dish is essentially
an event, a system or a seriesof events, that brings people
together that is just a catalystfor storytelling. It allows me
(25:58):
to hear people's stories. Andthen the photographs and the
recipe cards are the theartifacts that come from those
events. So they're the physicaldocumentation, that is visual
catch, that allows me todisseminate those stories,
because I come from a studio artbackground. So I'm always I'm
(26:19):
attached to this idea ofpresentation and visual
presentation in particular.
So for me, 2016 You're right,you're absolutely right. And it
was an interesting time forpolitics, for rural communities.
(26:39):
And for social practice, orcommunity engagement, art. And
in our world, those three thingsconverged.
And for good or bad. We saw alot of things happening all of a
sudden.
And but you know,I'm one of those people that
(27:03):
believes the world kind ofbalances itself. For every
action, there's an oppositeaction, the pendulum continues
to swing back and forth. And alot of those people who were
doing the bad work, I don't seeor hear from as much anymore,
(27:23):
because I think their reputationcaught up with them. And people
started to figure out, andthey've moved on, they realized,
maybe I don't want to be asocial practice artists, I don't
like the idea of sharedauthorship. They're more of a
branding and marketing person,as opposed to the community
engagement, shared practitionertype person. So they found their
(27:46):
place in the world andcommunities. The hard thing,
though, is the socialpractitioners who try to
approach with ethics and withsound approach and projects and
practices and everything. Whenthey then go up to an
individual, an organization, acommunity, whatever. And they
(28:06):
say, Oh, no, we've been burnedbefore. We're not doing that,
again.
That hurts. I've had that happena few times where I see a great
opportunity. And I've been told,nope, I did something with this
person A few years ago, and Iended up having to pay for
(28:27):
everything. I did all the work.
I did all this and that persontook all the credit. And I'm
never doing that again.
Matthew Fluharty (28:33):
Well, those artists in those organizations
who created projects andprograms
that ultimately created hurt inthe community, have gone
forward, monetize it on socialmedia and uses the backbone for
further grant funding.
Su Legatt (28:52):
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it'slike that in every field, I
think. I don't think that'sunique to social practice art. I
think it's like that ineverything.
Matthew Fluharty (29:03):
So against that tapestry, of awfulness.
What I would like to place inthe foreground is dish as a
project. I'm so glad to hearyour thoughts on Suzanne Lacy,
in these ideas of invitation.
And I'm wondering, would you bewilling just to read for us the
first two paragraphs from yourintroduction to dish?
Su Legatt (29:30):
Oh, sure.
I grew up in rural Minnesota,the daughter of dairy farmers,
who in the late 1980s had togive up farming. As I got older,
I began to understand thegradual disappearance of rural
culture as I knew it as a child,large family gathering
surrounded by huge tables fullof food, wild outdoor adventures
(29:53):
with my siblings that took usdeep into the woods with only a
tiny deer trail to guide us outagain, an hour
spent in the lap of a parent inthe tractor spreading seed or
manure, or eventually harvestingcrops. We attended a small
country church where not onlydid everyone know everyone, they
knew your troubles celebratedyour successes, and were ready
(30:15):
to come to your home to help intimes of crisis. Everyone talk
to everyone not out of desire tobetter understand each other.
But because neighbors were anetwork of assistance and
information, we couldn't look upa recipe on the internet run to
the store for an ingredient weforgot, or replace something
that broke. Money was tight,time was precious, and things
(30:37):
were just too far away toconstantly be running back and
forth. Today, I laugh at moviesthat show farmers walking around
without a task in the middle ofthe day, or driving into town
just to buy a single sack offlour. potlucks are simple
custom that seemed to transcendpolitical affiliation, economic
status, religious orientation,and all other social
(30:59):
demographics. While the cultureof rural communities is
constantly changing, the simplegathering of humans around food
is not our memories, historiesand traditions are intertwined
with food as communication.
Matthew Fluharty (31:12):
Thank you.
Su Legatt (31:13):
So isn't that ridiculous? When you see that in
movies, farmers just going forthis long stroll conversation in
the middle of the afternoon,just just talking about their
troubles as though they don'thave anything else in the world
to do in my life. I have neverseen that happen.
Matthew Fluharty (31:33):
And it seems to sit even within one of the
things that I feel is really,really provocative about dish is
that you have those set ofassociations.
And yet in what you just sharedfrom this beautiful introduction
to the book on dish, like welearned that it's an intimacy
(31:54):
with the cultural history ofthis region, which allows this
project to really flourish theway that it has inferred to open
up that notion of invitation.
Su Legatt (32:05):
Yeah, I think it's more than just this region, I
think there's a certain level ofnostalgia
that everybody can relate to,even if you grew up in the city.
What was life like, as a kid,pre internet, I didn't grow up
in the city. But I know myfriends who said they rode their
bikes, everywhere, you had to gooutside and play, you still had
(32:29):
to go outside and play. Maybeeverybody rode their bikes to so
and so's house because they hadan Atari. That was the cool kids
house because mom and dad gotthem in Atari, or they played
street hockey outside, or theyall met at this particular park
or something, it's verydifferent today, there might be
a little bit of that still. Andeven the rural communities,
(32:50):
they're still a little bit ofplaying outside and going and
exploring the woods and thingslike that. But I think the great
divide, it's not so much ruraland urban its technology. And
that there's that I think I'mpart of that sliver generation
of not quite Gen X not quitemillennial, but that sliver
(33:11):
generation that the internetcreated. So dish touches on
several points related to therural community, where I'm
fascinated by specific to therural community, this cultural
shift that's happening with thedecrease of family farms, first
(33:34):
of all, but also the mass exodusthat's happening due to lack of
opportunity, and the ability tosupport your family. So people
are moving away just because ofless jobs. So because the family
farms went away, that led tofewer job opportunities, and the
(33:55):
mass exodus that's happening inthe rural communities that lead
to fewer opportunities to gatherand socialize. All of that
created the reduced opportunityto celebrate and
propriate culture, I don't knowhow else to say that. So dish is
(34:19):
a gathering that brings peopletogether and provides
socialization. But because everyfood item that's brought is a
family or an ancestral dish,there's also a cheeky sort of
one an opportunity to celebratefamily and family history, but
also a little bit of ademographic sort of study. Where
(34:42):
if a lot of the dishes that arebrought are German, for example,
there's a strong Germanpopulation and that community,
sometimes they are all over theplace across like completely
random and surprising andfascinating and it's great and
Sometimes they're very tight.
And the community is not exactlywhat you'd expect it to be.
(35:04):
Because I never know going inwhat we're going to get. But
they know. And they go, Oh, Oh,you didn't bring your whatever.
Oh, it's nice to see this. Iremember I had this last time.
So it's fun. And then you get tohear the stories. And the first
question I asked at the at everydish event is what did you bring
in Why? And it's a greaticebreaker for them because they
have pride in what they made.
(35:28):
And they want to talk about thisis my mother's donut recipe, or
this is a dish that has beenpassed down at for generations,
or I made this in honor of, youknow, so when you start the
conversation off with somethingyou can be proud about, it opens
the door to potentially talkabout something a little bit
(35:51):
more challenging, as opposed tostarting with something that's
really hard and working your wayup to something you're proud of.
Matthew Fluharty (35:59):
Are there conversations to stand out to
from these dish events, or folksthat are in that space where
they're able to think together?
About a story or a situationthat might? Might Harken to what
you're sharing? Yes, there.
There's moments of differencethat I appreciate one of the
(36:19):
phrases. You know, in Minnesota,we have Minnesota nice. I think
there's also Wisconsin, nice.
There's southern hospitality.
There's this regional notionthat there's a kindness or
there's a general hospitalityassociated to this particular
region. I don't think everyregion associates that way. I
think certain reasons take pridein being tough. Or being you
(36:42):
know, I think tough is a goodword.
Su Legatt (36:46):
So but in Minnesota, we have a Minnesota nice. So one
of the things that stand out forme is people who are new to the
region in just about every dishevent, there was at least one
person who was new to Minnesotaand their stories or their
general take, because we wouldtalk about Minnesota nights and
(37:06):
whether or not it was real, isit? Is it real? Does it exist?
And the people who are fromMinnesota would generally say at
first they'd say, Oh, yes, yes,absolutely, yes.
And then somebody wouldintroduce,
maybe it's a passive aggressive.
You know, it's more, if youcan't say anything nice, don't
say anything at all. It'slearning to refrain yourself,
(37:29):
and to restrain yourself. It'smore about just holding back.
It's not imposing yourself ismore what Minnesota is about.
And then the conversation wouldgo into No, sometimes people
just say, No, it's not becausethe new people would point out
in the front end, maybe theywould be invited over to
(37:53):
somebody's house, but thatperson didn't actually mean it.
Like, oh, it'd be great to gettogether some time. Okay, see
you bye.
That's it. There's no follow up.
There's no, Let's exchangenumbers. There is no great when
would you like to get together?
(38:13):
It's an empty gesture, which isnot necessarily kind. It's more
just the perception of kindness.
Um,it's funny because I was at a
conference in Oakland,California, a long time ago, and
we were doing an activelistening exercise. And when it
(38:33):
was my turn, I said, you know,I'm from Minnesota, and I told
my little spiel, and at the endof our workshop, this young lady
came up to me and said, Whereare you from in Minnesota?
And I said, Oh, it's a smalltown, you won't know it. It's
(38:54):
called Perm. And she goes, ah,I'm moving to Perm.
And I go, I go, no way. I go,where are you from? And she
goes, San Francisco. I said, Howare you moving to perm,
Minnesota. She met a guy at a coop in California. And he was
(39:16):
moving home to perm to take overthe family farm. And they were
getting married, they weregetting married, and they were
going to move to perm to takeover the family farm and she
goes, what should I know?
What should I know about movingto Minnesota and living in this
small town?
(39:39):
I said, Well, first of all,you're going to be a novelty.
People are going to befascinated because you're from
California, at first,and then they're going to
disappear. So at the beginning,they're going to be fascinated
by you, and then they're goingto disappear. So if you want to
make connections and you want toget to know people
(39:59):
You're going to have to do thegroundwork, you're going to have
to be the one that reaches out.
So, join an organization, get onthe board of some group.
I know there's an Arts Council,join the Arts Council, do some
things to get yourselfintegrated into that community
right away. And then you'llstart making connections and
(40:21):
it'll go from there. But if youdon't do that, you're always
going to be an outsider.
So anyway , I kind of got offtopic.
Matthew Fluharty (40:29):
That totally tracks with my experience and
Winona.
Su Legatt (40:33):
I think it does. It's funny, because that came up in
the conversations with dish alot to where people were living,
you can live in a house for 20years, and it's still the
previous owner, oh, that'sJohnson's house. You know, it's
not your house. You live inJohnson's house, your, you know,
(40:54):
your Fluharty. But you live inJohnson's house, even though
you've lived in that house for20 years.
Matthew Fluharty (40:59):
So I've lived in the upper Midwest for five
years now, andthat term, Minnesota Nice's and
then there was like thisconversation about it when I
moved, moved here, that wasreally percolating. But I love
this notion that came out ofjust what the natural dialogues
were during the dish process forthat being holding back instead
(41:22):
of Minnesota nice, which feels Imean, from my own personal
experience feels close tosomething that I experienced.
And it, it brings me back tothe dish book itself, which is a
really incredible book, I haveto say, you're also a very
accomplished photographer. Sothe dishes themselves appear
(41:43):
here. And they look incredible.
I mean, like compositionally,they're they look really
striking, but they also looklike things, many of them things
that I would love to eat. So thegenre of this book is really
cool, because itplays in part with the notion of
what a recipe book should be,while also really subverting our
(42:05):
expectations of what a recipebooks should be. And also
subverting our expectations ofwhat a quote unquote, art book,
whatever that means anymore.
Should be right.
Su Legatt (42:20):
It's funny, you say that, because I had a really
hard time writing my grantapplication. This book is
supported by a Minnesota StateArts board grant. And I had a
really hard time writing thegrant application, because I'm
like, well, it's an art bookthat includes recipes. But I
don't want people to think it'slike a cook book, because it's
not going to have these juicy,full display, food pics, I think
(42:45):
of the photographs likeportraits of the individuals who
brought them, but I don't wantthem to be tainted by all of the
outside information. So it'salmost like a Richard Avedon
approach to the objects. So theyhave just that flat, that plain
white background, and all youget is the object, like a very
(43:08):
studio still life, almostcommercial, but warmer. And I
had no idea how to describethat. In my application.
Thank you for saying that.
Matthew Fluharty (43:19):
It's a challenge, you're describing a
kind of book that we haven'tseen, until you've created it,
maybe to say again, what Ilearned through having the
privilege and the pleasure justto sit with this book is that
the form and the project itself,defamiliarizes our relationship
to food and to gathering and tothe forms of cultural
(43:44):
association that are reallyinterlinked with those things. I
think this goes back to thatnotion of maybe what we're
talking about with Minnesotanice, really is a quality of
holding back in that.
Two things happen when I satwith the Dish book.
One of the most immediate thingsthat happened that would maybe
(44:08):
counter general expectationsabout what would be contained in
these pages, is thatthere is a really broad cross
cultural representation here offolks who attend to dish events
and have the food link to theirown cultural events and
ancestral traditions. So we haveNigerian fried rice.
(44:30):
And then we have cookie dough.
And if you were to ask me in onesentence, how do we talk about
contemporary rural experience? Iwould say well, those two dishes
are both on the table. If thatcatches us off guard, that's an
opportunity for us to thinkabout what is at stake right
now. In rural communities.
Also and something thatwas very meaningful to me, as
(44:51):
well was I think some element ofthe holding back the maybe it's
it is a quality of life, andMinnesota or lightlife, in the
upper Midwest, in the way thatfolks who are European descended
hold back, is that we're alsoholding back our own cultural
difference. Andeven for folks who may be come
(45:12):
from that wider Europeantradition in this book, there is
difference, there's a lot ofdifference there.
There's a lot of difference thatI think sometimes we don't sit
with enough.
Su Legatt (45:29):
What just really strikes me about the work of
dish. And maybe it's indistinction to the other forms
of social practice you mentionedearlier, we get to that point
through being in relationshipwith each other, as opposed to
it being some sort of reallydogmatic statement about what a
project is. Sothere were supposed to be four
additional dish events that gotcancelled because of COVID. And
(45:51):
I ended up having an onlineevent via zoom. And at first, I
was really upset that those lastfour events were canceled, I was
really excited about them. Andthey spread the radius of dish a
little bit further north east,which was really exciting for
me, but to kind of hiddenblessings came from that. The
(46:12):
first was that because thoseevents were canceled, I didn't
have to edit the photographs Icould include in the book. So
every single dish that wasbrought to the dish events is
included in the book, which I'mso happy about because every
participant who came isimportant. And I wanted them
represented, because I wasI lost sleep, I literally was up
(46:36):
at night trying to figure outwho do I not include? I don't
want to not include somebody. SoI just said, you know what I'm
going to make it fit, I'm goingto, I'm going to have to include
everybody. So not having thosecuts made that possible. The
other thing that happened is theonline event, I had participants
from North Carolina, Missouri,and Kansas, attend the event,
(46:57):
who would not otherwise be ableto attend, but they all had
Minnesota roots. And they wereall so excited to just talk
about these topics, because theywere living in communities with
people who did not necessarilyrelate in the same way that they
(47:18):
did to the topics we werediscussing. One woman pointed
out where she lives, they don'thave bars, they have squares. So
we have, we have like lemonbars, or we have seven layer
bars, they have squares. So whenshe brings bars to any event, or
they have full pans or whatever,like they just bring the whole
(47:40):
pan and then cut that line orwhatever. So that was like very
exciting to her that she couldtalk about bars, and people
understood what she was talking.
So there's that language, rightwhere you're speaking your
language. It's funny howprojects develop. And it's one
of those things whereif you hold on too tight, the
project won't be what it'ssupposed to become. One of the
(48:01):
things I get asked a lot is howdo you know when your project is
over? And I generally say, Idon't know, if my projects are
ever over, I feel like theyevolve and morph into the next
thing. And with the dish bookcoming out, it's it's hard
because now there's more peoplewho want to host dish events.
(48:25):
But at the same time, to me,it's like, this is a good
benchmark for the nextevolution. And there's more
things I want to do. Movingforward to the point.
About a year ago, somebody cameup to me and go, are you the
potluck lady?
(48:45):
And I was I was shaken by that.
And I was like, I don't know, ifI want to be known as the
potluck lady.
I'm like, oh, it might be timeto evolve again. So. But it's
funny, because it's a criticismI've received in the past where
I think my work has a generalsort of look about it where I've
(49:07):
been told it's very clean. Butthere's a there's a cheekiness
to it. Like there's a slighthumor, but I've also been
criticized because there's,there's no solid, like, I'm not
a landscape photographer, or I'mnot, you know, textile sculptor,
and I've been criticized forthat in the past, but I think,
(49:32):
you know, to, to plead my case,I think it's important to make
the work that you feel bestrepresents what
needs to be representative ofthe community or of the story
you're trying to tell becausenot every story is going to be
told best the same way. And thatsounds like I get that that
(49:55):
sounds.
I don't know like I'm making itup or something or I'm just
Whatever. But part of it also isthat I like to learn. I like to
learn new things, I like tochallenge myself, I like to
learn from other people a lot.
And I think that's where dishcomes from too is I like hearing
their stories. And when theyintroduce a new idea to me, I
met a woodturner. And now I'mjust like, I need to do
(50:17):
woodturning.
I need to learn how to woodturn. So if 10 years down the
road, there's a project thatcomes up that involves
recovering trees, I havesomething in my toolbox that
allows me to present somevariation of this tree, I
(50:39):
recovered from this farmer'sfield. And I can tell the story
of it. And I've created somepiece that you know what I mean,
because there's the physicalobject associated to the object,
which is comes from the specificplace, which is tied to the
story. And, yeah, so I want todo justice. So I have to have
this ability tomorph and transition. So I can
(50:59):
best tell the storyfor that person or for that
object for that community. Intalking about woodturning.
Matthew Fluharty (51:12):
And then thinking about how a story is
best told, it takes me to thework in advice from Minnesota
grandmothers, which is also onview at the Plains Art Museum
for the high visibilityexhibition. And so I'm wondering
if you could share a little bitabout how this project came
about because it centers again,in one of these objects, which
(51:35):
for many folks is a real centraleveryday material object.
Su Legatt (51:40):
I can't even remember the year that I put out the call
on social media, I say callart language I posted, I just
posted on social media. Whatadvice did your Minnesota
grandmother give you somethinglike that, and then people just
responded to it. And I collectedthe feedback, wrote it down,
stuck it on a piece of paper andjust let it percolate. It
(52:04):
started around the time that mymother's mother started having
health issues. And goingdownhill a little bit. And I was
thinking a lot aboutgenerational knowledge, the
information that we pass fromparent to child, and for me, and
at the same time I do, I think alot and I have projects in the
(52:28):
past that never quite came tofruition about objects that
represent an aspect of identityfor whatever reason. And for me,
one of those objects is a doilyone because in my family, the
women crochet, so we havedoilies in our homes. So there's
that just the aesthetic of thedoily in your home. And like you
(52:51):
said, it's this object that wehave, right. But also,
crocheting is a skill that wastaught to mother to daughter
passed down from generations.
And as far as I know, I'm thelast one.
(53:11):
And there's a weird sensation inbeing the last daughter to know
how to crochet in the family. Sothere's a weight that's tied to
that.
So I started thinking about therelationship to mother the
relationship to grandmother, thebaggage, the emotional baggage
(53:31):
that's tied to the doily for mepersonally. And then I had I put
that out there. You know theadvice for Minnesota
grandmothers. And all of this ishappening.
I'm living in Morehead and FargoMoorhead has spring cleanup week
which is like my Christmas. Ilove it. Because spring cleanup
(53:52):
week up here, you can putanything on the curb. There's
limitations, it can't bechemicals or electronics,
whatever. And they will clean upthe garbage service people will
take it away. Inevitably, peopleshop the berm, you drive you
cruise up and down the streetsand you go through people's
piles and you discover foundobjects in the art world. It's
(54:15):
found object. So one time, Idon't know if the person was a
furniture maker or an a pollsteror what but I found these huge
boxes of fabric swatches fromthe 60s and 70s. I hit the
jackpot, right? So I'm puttingthese in the back of my car, no
idea what I'm gonna do withthem. I'm sitting on them for
(54:35):
two or three years. So I've gotthese fabric swatches from a few
years earlier. I'm thinkingabout object connected to
identity. My grandmother'shealth declining and I start
reminiscing on generationalknowledge. All of these things
converge and you get the advicefrom instead of grandmother
(54:55):
pieces. So these are thestatements. The advice is
screen printed onto the foundobject fabric, which is
stretched over wooden disks. Andthen the doilies are crocheted
borders on those disks, and thenthey're starched and presented
as wall pieces. So when you seethem in a formal gallery
(55:20):
setting, first of all putting adoily in a gallery, hilarious.
Another hero of mine is MarcelDuchamp if you hadn't picked up
on that already, so presentingin the data lists are an
influence for me.
Putting a doily a starched doilyin a gallery space cracks me up
(55:40):
way too much. And the doiliesare bright colors, they're not
usually white. And then theyhave these phrases on them. Like
don't sit on cold concrete, orlove life. Never stop learning
stuff like that. So they'restarched, and they're up on the
walls, and they look like polkadots. And they're bright colors.
And they're funny, but they'resentimental or nostalgic. And
(56:01):
for me, they're very personal.
And I crocheted some of them.
But my mom helped me out. Andshe crocheted some of them as
well. And what's funny, and Itake a little bit of pride in
this is my mom, and I can'tremember who crocheted which
ones, which I'm very proud ofbecause I think she's way better
(56:22):
than I am. So if we can't tell,that means I did a pretty good
job.
Matthew Fluharty (56:29):
That's really inadvertent high praise.
Su Legatt (56:34):
So it she actually she contributed to the Facebook
response to and she has herpiece in her house. So hers was
when making bread, make itworthwhile, bake at least 15
loaves at a time, which she doeswhen my mom bakes bread, she
does at least 12 to 15 loaves.
Matthew Fluharty (56:55):
Wow, that's a practice of invitation right
there.
Su Legatt (56:59):
So she that was her grandmother's advice to her.
Matthew Fluharty (57:03):
Thank you. So as, as we kind of come to the
end of our time together. And,you know, in thinking about
peace forms of everydaygenerational memory, you've just
shared with advice fromMinnesota grandmothers, are
there some projects or theinkling of some questions that
you're thinking through thatmight lead your work? In the
(57:25):
year ahead?
Su Legatt (57:27):
Yeah, I've I've been thinking a lot about
generational knowledge, but alsolearning through osmosis, what
we acquire simply by beingpresent.
Andespecially as a white, straight,
cisgender female, what I ammissing out on by not being
(57:49):
present. So you asked me before,what am I currently reading
right now. So I'm reading somethings from my own personal
growth right now. But I've beendoing more just trying to quiet
my mind. And that's one of thethings I've really appreciated
about 2020 is I know, people aresick of zoom. But I feel like
zoom has been like a greatequalizer where everyone has to
(58:10):
call in on the conference call.
It's not eight people in a roomand one person calling in, I
don't have to drive for hours toa meeting in Minneapolis
anymore. Everyone gets to callin. And I love that. So I've
been thinking a lot about thisidea of equality in terms of in
(58:34):
physical space, and how werelate to each other.
racially, and religiously andother demographics, but also in
our physical space, rural andurban, whether you have an
apartment or a house, whetheryou have a large house or small
(58:54):
house, just those types ofthings. But then also I've been
thinking about where I stand asan artist. And when things were
getting really hard. I had totake a moment to think about
where I was at as a socialpractice artist and somebody who
posted events aroundconversation.
(59:17):
And whether or not I wasequipped to continue to do that.
Am I the person who should behosting events and having
conversations did people want tohave conversations about food
and shifting cultural dynamicsin rural Minnesota?
(59:41):
AndI don't know if I've answered
that yet. ButI think things are starting and
again, there's that pendulumright to every action. There's
an opposite action.
I think things are startingto quiet down a little bit, for
people personally,I don't know if people are
(01:00:09):
ready to have thoseconversations yet. But I think
there's room for otherconversations. And
hopefully other conversationscan open the door. Because in
the end, it's reallyI was talking to a friend a
couple of weeks ago.
(01:00:32):
And he was getting reallyfrustrated, because he, he felt
like he was surrounded by justhorrible people. Like, why am I
always around horrible people.
And I said, if you have a verysensitive radar said, The trick
is to train yourself to turnthat down and find one thing in
(01:00:59):
common. If you can find onething that you can agree on, you
can build off of that.
The problem is that we areallowing these
loud voices to stand in front ofus.
And we need to let them be loud.
But let them be loud elsewherefor just a little while, so that
(01:01:24):
we can have that quiet moment.
So we can connect with somebodyhere. Let them be loud here. Let
us connect here.
And that's a very difficultthing to do. Because the
internet is in our pocket, everymoment every day.
(01:01:49):
AndI don't know how to get around
that. So I think introducingthings like Dish, and Advice
from Minnesota Grandmothershaving a little bit of sugar
with your medicine. And a littlebit of humor, a little bit of
nostalgia,a little bit of realizing that
we've all felt like the outsiderat some point. We've all had to
(01:02:12):
learn a new trade. We've all hadto discover something. We've all
been naive. We've all saidsomething that was wrong. We
were all offensive by mistake.
You know, we've all done it.
It's just learning from that andmoving forward and growing.
Matthew Fluharty (01:02:39):
Su, thank you so much for your time and for
joining us on high visibility.
Su Legatt (01:02:43):
Thank you. It was fun.
Matthew Fluharty (01:02:50):
Thanks again to Su for her time and
generosity in this conversation.
Please check out the show notesin the High Visibility site,
inhighvisibility.org for furtherinformation on all the work and
ideas discussed here. Pleasealso check out Plains Art Museum
at plainsart.org to learn moreabout the High Visibility
(01:03:11):
exhibition, which is currentlyon view until May 30 2021.
Thanks so much for spending sometime this conversation. Take
care
Hello, you're listening to High
Visibility.
This is a podcast produced byArt of the Rural and Plains Art
Museum that welcomes intoconversation artists, culture
bearers and leaders from acrossrural America and Indian
Country.
It's offered in conjunction withHigh Visibility, a
(00:27):
collaboratively curatedexhibition, currently on view at
Plains Art Museum through May 302021. My name is Matthew
Fluharty, and I'm the organizingcurator.
In the months ahead, I'll bewith you, along with other hosts
from the Plains Art Museum.
As we share the richly divergentstories lived experiences
visions of folks across thecontinent.
(00:52):
You can learn more about thehigh visibility exhibition by
heading to plains art.org.
We also welcome folks to checkout the high visibility site
inhighvisibility.org, where weoffer show notes and
transcriptions alongside furtherinformation on the individuals
and work discussed here.
Also, depending on the podcastplatform, one can view and
(01:15):
directly link to artists workwhile following along to the
conversation.
We're grateful for the supportof the Andy Warhol Foundation
for the Visual Arts and theNational Endowment for the Arts
in making this endeavorpossible. And we welcome folks
to check out and subscribe tothese conversations on their
favorite podcast platforms.
(01:37):
Today we have the chance tospeak with Su Legatt and to
learn more about how herupbringing in rural Minnesota
and her experiences as an artistand advocate for rural
communities have shaped her workand her sense of where we're
headed. And both the nationalconversation on rural culture
and in the current forms ofsupport and visibility that are
(01:57):
available to rural artists. Wehave a chance in this
conversation to see these ideasintersect across her work,
notably in her recent seriesDish, which celebrates the forms
of generational knowledge, localculture, and personal creativity
present in the Midwesternpotluck.
The events and the subsequentdish book all offer in Su's
(02:21):
words, an opportunity to "bringpeople together for intimate
exchange in the preservation ofprivate moments, and to
collectively build a morecomplex and complete
understanding of Minnesotaidentity while bringing new
connections and strengtheningexisting networks."
(02:41):
Along the way here, Su alsoshares her work in Advice from
Minnesota Grandmothers, whichshare some similarities with
additions and that she presentsanother element of rural
everyday life. In this case, thecrocheted doily and offers it as
a vessel for a much deeperchannel of generational
knowledge.
(03:01):
Like Dish defamiliarizes ourassociations to objects and
practices we might initiallydismiss or overlook.
After being with this work, wefind surprising bridges between
cultures, and some powerfulexpressions of vulnerability and
intimacy that emerge from thesematerials.
(03:22):
Su Legatt is an artist, educatorand community organizer. Her
photography, installation andsocial practice projects explore
the quiet, often unnoticedindividual moments of everyday
life. Su utilizes a variety ofcommunity engagement techniques
and crowdsourcing methods tocreate opportunities for
(03:44):
participants to share withothers in the hopes of creating
what she describes as micromoments of empathy. Su was a
graduate of Minnesota StateUniversity, Morehead and Utah
State University and she'staught photography, digital
media and professionaldevelopment courses at Lake
Superior college, MinnesotaState University, Morehead and
(04:08):
North Dakota State University.
Su works with various nonprofitorganizations to organize and
create cultural events that helpto improve the social structures
and relations within eachcommunity. As an Arts and
Culture Commissioner for thecity of Morehead, Minnesota, Su
works with legislators non andfor profit organizations, and
local artists to support andstrengthen the role of the
(04:32):
region's creative community. Sowithout further ado, please get
comfortable enjoy ourconversation with Su Leggett.
Su, welcome to high visibility.
Su Legatt (04:44):
Thanks for having me.
Matthew Fluharty (04:46):
It's a real honor to have have you with us
today. Andjust to have the space to settle
in, to think about your work,your artistic practice where
you're coming fromAnd a couple questions around
how the arts and culture fieldand maybe how the broader
(05:09):
cultural conversation hasoriented itself around questions
of social practice art,community based work in the last
couple of years, I'm reallygrateful for the chance for us.
Just kind of have a conversationand see where it goes around
these questions. So, Su, maybeto begin, where did you grow up?
What were some of the earlyexperiences, maybe some of the
(05:31):
early influences that weremarkers on the beginning of your
creative journey?
Su Legatt (05:40):
Yeah, so I, I'm about as Minnesotan as they come. I
was born in Little Falls. But Igrew up five miles outside of a
tiny town called flensburg. Itis still there, although it's
pretty much just a church in abar at this point, which I think
a lot of small towns inMinnesota, kind of boil down to
(06:03):
a church and a bar and somehouses. So we were there for
probably my first three or fouryears, bounced around a little
bit long prairie and theneventually we settled in perm,
which is in lakes country, closeto Detroit Lakes. Why Deena,
that sort of area stayed thereuntil I graduated high school, I
(06:24):
went to college in Morehead.
When you talk about earlyexperiences, all of my earliest
memories involve being outside.
In the dirt, we were a dairyfarming family. So picking
rocks, and being in the field,my job was to steer the tractor
or the truck through the fieldas my brothers and my dad would
(06:49):
load it with hay or whatever, Iactually do have a memory of
sitting on my mom's lap in thetractor while we were spreading
fertilizer. And she would Ialmost don't even know if I
should say this.
Whatever it was 35 years ago,she would fall asleep and I
would steer it, I just had todrive it straight across the
(07:11):
field. And she because she wasso tired, she would be asleep
and I'd be sitting on her lapand I just had to go straight
and we got to the end, I had towake her up and she would turn
it and then she would doze offagain, I would steer it straight
across the field and wake herup. That was the reality of the
early 80s. The woman had fourtiny children. Safety was
different back then.
(07:35):
But it was that those two thingskind of go that story goes hand
in hand. Two points with it wasit was outdoors. It was a harder
life. You had to really work butalso you had to you grew up fast
and you had to earn your keep weI know we had an allowance when
we were growing up. But I don'tremember getting the allowance.
(07:55):
We just had chores as a part ofbeing members of the family. It
wasn't like we were paid to pullour weight we worked because
that's what you did. You had toearn you were a member of the
family, you made a mess, youcleaned up your mess, you know.
So even when we moved off thefarm, we moved off the farm when
(08:17):
I was about nine. And we movedto a house on a lake because we
were in Lake Country and perm.
It was funny because we didn'thave a farm anymore, but it
still felt like a farm or my momhad the massive vegetable
garden. And we had to pull weedsout of the off the beach. And we
(08:38):
had to pull the seaweed or wehad to pull the weeds out of the
lake because my dad didn't wantweeds in the lake.
Matthew Fluharty (08:47):
Make sense?
Right.
Su Legatt (08:50):
So my parents still like their tiny little yard
their plot of land was stillvery much treated like a farm.
And my dad when we wereteenagers would loan us out to
the local farmers to help thembring in their hay and whatever
chores they needed done. We werelent out to help them with their
(09:10):
chores. So we still felt likefarm kids even though we weren't
living on the farm. I'm reallygrateful for that because it
taught you how to appreciatewhat you had. And you didn't
take anything for granted andyou really built relationships.
So hearing
Matthew Fluharty (09:27):
you describe that early memory of sitting on
your mother's lap. Is that oneof your earliest most formative
memories.
Su Legatt (09:37):
I think my earliest memory was in my parents
bedroom. My mom was gettingready to go out. I have this
memory of my mom putting onmakeup and getting ready to go
out and I was begging her for myown. I can't remember if it was
I wanted my own crayons or myown Legos because I didn't want
(09:59):
to shareWith my brothers anymore, I
didn't want to share with mysiblings, I wanted my own. And
she was like, No, that's justnot gonna ever happen.
And I was so upset.
But it also says in my baby bookthat I always broke my crayons,
because I pushed too hard.
Matthew Fluharty (10:18):
An early warning sign of what's ahead.
Su Legatt (10:21):
very passionate about my coloring.
It's I think that was myearliest memory. And I told him
that because I was describing itto my mom one time and the room
that we were in and she said,there's no way you could
remember that because you wereprobably only two. Because she
said that was the bedroom atthis, this house and you were
probably only two years old.
There's no way you can rememberthat. That's amazing. I mean,
it's amazing how memory works.
(10:44):
fascinated by memory. So much ofmy work is focuses on memory and
deals with memory. Let me askyou a question about memory. And
this was a little bit of where Iwas going around thinking about
your earliest, most formativememories, because though I
didn't grew up in Minnesota, Igrew up in Appalachian Ohio, but
grew up on a farm, and also grewup on a farm that my parents had
(11:09):
to leave. You know, so yourmemories made me think about the
1980s. And what the 1980s lookedlike for many farming families,
certainly across the Midwest,where
Matthew Fluharty (11:23):
I think although we grew up in different
regions of the continent, I alsoexperienced that feeling of
leaving a farm and movingsomewhere else. And that kind of
adaptation that a family goesthrough, and that a person goes
through just when you're you'vemoved and the relationship to
the land is different.
And I guess what I'm wondering,Why think is two things.
(11:49):
I feel like the work in therural arts and cultural field
has really to profoundly dwellon what the 1980s meant to many
rural communities, and howradical the shifts were, in many
cases, how tragic they were.
Su Legatt (12:05):
When the white settlers
acquired land, illegally,horribly, through the government
through the Homestead Act, whenit was taken by the US
government from the NativeAmerican peoples. When they
acquired that land, it became amulti generational system where
(12:26):
they passed it down from parentto child, again, and again and
again. So farming became aculture, it became something
that was ingrained in thesociety and within their family.
That's for a lot of people.
That's all they knew. That's allthey knew how to do. And when
the large farms and the megafarms started to form in the
(12:50):
80s, wiping out that independentsingle family farmers,
they didn't know what to do.
They didn't know anything else.
And so now you have these peoplewho have to completely start
over, they don't knowwhat to do next, my dad ended up
starting a trucking company. Heactually just retired in
(13:13):
January. Like after 40, someyears, he just retired, and he
was able to make a go of it. Butto this day, if you asked him he
would have preferred to justkeep farming because he was
really good at it. He wasshowing cattle and winning
awards, and he had the highestproducing dairy farm in the
state of Minnesota, in 1983. Orwhatever your it was. He was an
(13:37):
award winning dairy farmer. Soit was more than just having to
change jobs or having to changecareers, there was a massive
cultural shift. It is ingrainedin our language, the difference
between supper and dinner, thereis a difference between supper
and dinner. It's not just hot,like you choose to say one word
(13:59):
or the other. So they're there.
It's ingrained in the culture.
And I think we're even seeing ittoday. I mean, the American diet
is something all on its own. Andit's something that has to be
addressed. But when we talkabout being a meat and potatoes,
kind of family, there's a reasonwhy
(14:20):
American farmer eats meat andpotatoes because they're out in
the field physical labor. Allday long. They have to have that
high calorie food, when you takethem out of that lifestyle and
put them into a desk job orsomething that doesn't require
(14:41):
that manual labor, but the foodis still part of their culture,
and still what they're going toeat. We end up with these high
obesity rates or these dietsthat don't fit our current
lifestyle and there's atransitional period that has to
happen and we're in that rightnow. So I
I get what you're saying, likewe're in this transitional
(15:02):
period where we're trying tofigure out how, what is our
culture now, what are wesupposed to be doing when in
rural America, the lifestylethat
white settlers had for 150 yearsis no more, what is supposed to
happen next. And there's aconflict that we're seeing
(15:24):
between the food that we eat andthe language that we use against
our daily practices and the jobsthat we have, and the clothing
that we wear. And there's thisodd combination or conflict that
we're seeing. And I think peopleare sorting that out.
(15:45):
Which is fascinating to me.
There's a deeper story to betold. I mean, that's part of
what is resonating with me andwhat you just shared two and a
deeper story that in thismoment, folks far beyond rural
communities, I think would liketo hear. And as we make sense of
the ever evolving, politicalmoment we're in, we need to hear
(16:08):
this conversation. Yeah, Iagree. And I was it was it
popped into my head thismorning. It was, I don't know
what it's like for you. But I,I'm one of those people that
have these random thoughts forthis morning, I had to go to
Target and pick up something andjust out of the blue, a thought
popped into my head, like, Iwonder how to address this
juxtaposition between thisfascination with romanticizing
(16:33):
the rural, where it is anescape, you go to the rural for
respite and for recovery, of aglorification of the country,
and how it's going to give yousalvation and relaxation and all
that. But at the same time, thepeople there are Hokie on
(16:53):
educated, there's that archetypeof the rural being,
how it's depicted in movies andTV shows, and the way that the
rural is thought about. Andagain, this is a generalization,
but the way that it's depictedby Hollywood, or the way that
(17:14):
it's thought about by the theurban cultures
seems to be in direct conflictwith itself, where it's both the
salvation but also something tobe mocked. And that I'm just,
I've just that popped into myhead today. I'm like, I wonder
how they think about that? Or dothey think about that, like, how
(17:37):
does that resolve itself? I gotI want to have that conversation
with a Hollywood producer. Howdo you
balance that? One of the moviesthat I actually really enjoy, I
find fascinating and hilariousis Tucker and Dale vs. Evil.
Because it flips that script.
Where do you know this movie? Idon't know. Okay, so Tucker and
(18:00):
Dale are, I think it actuallytake place in Appalachia, so you
might appreciate it. But Tuckerand Dale are these two average
guys who their dream comes true,where they're able to purchase a
cabin out in the woods for theirhunting cabin, and they're going
out one weekend, they're goingto fix it up. But then there's
these college kids who are goingto go camping. And because of
(18:23):
the stereotype they have intheir head of the country
bumpkin and movies likedeliverance. They're convinced
Tucker and Dale are going to tryto kill them. And because of
their own ignorance, they gothrough the series of mishaps
and harm themselves, convincedthat it's Tucker and Dale,
(18:44):
harming them, when Tucker andDale are constantly trying to
help them. And they're like, whyare they hurting themselves?
What is wrong with these collegekids? And it's, I mean, it's
funny and ridiculous, but at thesame time, I watched this movie
going.
Exactly why? Why are they stillconvinced? And you and I saw
(19:10):
this when we were in Chicago.
For that conference, we had theconversation before our panel
where like, we know, we're goingto be asked, we know we're going
to be asked because our panelwas on on the rural social
practice in the ruralcommunities, when we're
presenting on on a conference onpower in Chicago.
(19:32):
And we knew it was in 2016. Andwe knew we were going to be
asked about the 2016 election.
And we wereand part of it was that just
knowing we were going to beasked about have like What's it
like being an artist in a ruralcommunity? Like somehow that's
something we should be afraidof?
Matthew Fluharty (19:57):
Yeah, so I'm really grateful that you
mentionedThat time that we were together
and open engagement in Chicagofor folks who are less involved
in the social practice, part ofarts and cultural conversation,
open engagement isone of the most preeminent
national and internationalgatherings for folks doing
(20:17):
social practice work.
And my experience there, but myexperience in the immediate
aftermath of the 2016 electionwas that
it felt like there was a kind ofchasm.
(20:38):
And on one side was the reallyhighly developed conversation
around social practice, you caneven add community based work in
there.
You know, by that point in 2016,there were a university programs
on this, there's so many books,it's a practice that really had
gained a lot of traction in thearts and cultural conversation.
So on one side was that chasm.
And then the other side was,like, You turned on a light
(21:04):
switch after the Novemberelection, and suddenly, folks
were asking, what is happeningin rural America? What are the
conditions on the ground inrural places. And what was
really striking to me was like,This chasm is really
complicated, because on onehand, you have the ways you
spoke of before that ruralplaces have been, and we're
(21:26):
being represented in popularculture and in the media. And
like, those very forms areerased the racial, cultural
geographic, the historicaldifference that was there. Like
what I thought about in themoment, immediately after that
(21:46):
election, is that this is afield in a body of work, that is
pitch directly towards the kindsof conversations and social
change that could occur out of ashared cultural imperative. Yet,
so little of the work that wastaking place outside of cities
was even visible in that field.
(22:11):
And so I wonder, like, if that'sattention that you have
experienced, like, as yourjourney has progressed? And just
like, if that was attention thatyou felt as well, in that moment
in the year since?
Su Legatt (22:22):
Yeah. So around 2016.
And leading up to 2016, I wouldsay, from 2016 to two or 2012,
to 2016.
social practice was a hot topic,it was one of those words that
if you dropped, like on a grantapplication, people sat up a
little bit taller, you know, oh,social practice today, it's
(22:46):
placemaking. Ooh, creative.
placemaking. Oh, I'm interested,tell me more. The downside is,
okay, in every field, there arebad practitioners. There just
are there are people who aredoing the work, who don't really
know what they're doing, whensomething becomes popular, that
number increases, becausethey're riding the wave. The
(23:10):
problem with that in socialpractice, or community
engagement work, is that it canhurt people, it can hurt
communities. And what Ifind troublesome
is the lack of accountabilitythat is placed on
(23:37):
organizations and on creatives,the people or the organizations
who sweep into a community andsay, we're going to do this for
you. And they do it and thenthey leave, and then the
community is going, Okay.
Now what, we have this highmaintenance thing, or we have
(24:00):
this thing that we didn't askfor really doesn't help us in
any way, or now we have to takecare of who's gonna pay for that
it doesn't really get to theheart of what they actually
need. One of my heroes, or oneof my role models is Suzanne
Lacy. She has a bit of a trackrecord of being invited by
(24:24):
institutions or organizations togo into a community to do a
certain project or to dosomething that they want her to
do. And then when she getsthere, she says, you know, I've
talked to them, and we're goingto do this. Instead, I've talked
to them. This is what they'retelling me, and they're going to
guide the ship. And the one ofthe things that people who
(24:47):
choose to do social practicework very early on, I think
struggle with a lot is the ideaof letting go of authorship.
They say I have an idea. I wantto do this project and they go
into community.
They say, I'm going to do thisfor you. And no matter how much
the community says, No, thanks.
That's cool, not interested.
(25:08):
They go, No, no, no, it's good.
It's good. You want it, trustme, trust me, trust me. And they
push and push and push, insteadof going, oh. And the problem is
that you shouldn't go intocommunity saying, I'm going to
do this for you, you should gointo community saying, What can
I do for you? How can I be ofservice to you? I have a certain
set of skills, I have a certainnetwork. I'm curious about you.
(25:32):
Tell me your story. Let me learnfrom you. So a project like
dish, for example. I'minterested in hearing the
stories from these communitymembers. So dish is essentially
an event, a system or a seriesof events, that brings people
together that is just a catalystfor storytelling. It allows me
(25:58):
to hear people's stories. Andthen the photographs and the
recipe cards are the theartifacts that come from those
events. So they're the physicaldocumentation, that is visual
catch, that allows me todisseminate those stories,
because I come from a studio artbackground. So I'm always I'm
(26:19):
attached to this idea ofpresentation and visual
presentation in particular.
So for me, 2016 You're right,you're absolutely right. And it
was an interesting time forpolitics, for rural communities.
(26:39):
And for social practice, orcommunity engagement, art. And
in our world, those three thingsconverged.
And for good or bad. We saw alot of things happening all of a
sudden.
And but you know,I'm one of those people that
(27:03):
believes the world kind ofbalances itself. For every
action, there's an oppositeaction, the pendulum continues
to swing back and forth. And alot of those people who were
doing the bad work, I don't seeor hear from as much anymore,
(27:23):
because I think their reputationcaught up with them. And people
started to figure out, andthey've moved on, they realized,
maybe I don't want to be asocial practice artists, I don't
like the idea of sharedauthorship. They're more of a
branding and marketing person,as opposed to the community
engagement, shared practitionertype person. So they found their
(27:46):
place in the world andcommunities. The hard thing,
though, is the socialpractitioners who try to
approach with ethics and withsound approach and projects and
practices and everything. Whenthey then go up to an
individual, an organization, acommunity, whatever. And they
(28:06):
say, Oh, no, we've been burnedbefore. We're not doing that,
again.
That hurts. I've had that happena few times where I see a great
opportunity. And I've been told,nope, I did something with this
person A few years ago, and Iended up having to pay for
(28:27):
everything. I did all the work.
I did all this and that persontook all the credit. And I'm
never doing that again.
Matthew Fluharty (28:33):
Well, those artists in those organizations
who created projects andprograms
that ultimately created hurt inthe community, have gone
forward, monetize it on socialmedia and uses the backbone for
further grant funding.
Su Legatt (28:52):
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it'slike that in every field, I
think. I don't think that'sunique to social practice art. I
think it's like that ineverything.
Matthew Fluharty (29:03):
So against that tapestry, of awfulness.
What I would like to place inthe foreground is dish as a
project. I'm so glad to hearyour thoughts on Suzanne Lacy,
in these ideas of invitation.
And I'm wondering, would you bewilling just to read for us the
first two paragraphs from yourintroduction to dish?
Su Legatt (29:30):
Oh, sure.
I grew up in rural Minnesota,the daughter of dairy farmers,
who in the late 1980s had togive up farming. As I got older,
I began to understand thegradual disappearance of rural
culture as I knew it as a child,large family gathering
surrounded by huge tables fullof food, wild outdoor adventures
(29:53):
with my siblings that took usdeep into the woods with only a
tiny deer trail to guide us outagain, an hour
spent in the lap of a parent inthe tractor spreading seed or
manure, or eventually harvestingcrops. We attended a small
country church where not onlydid everyone know everyone, they
knew your troubles celebratedyour successes, and were ready
(30:15):
to come to your home to help intimes of crisis. Everyone talk
to everyone not out of desire tobetter understand each other.
But because neighbors were anetwork of assistance and
information, we couldn't look upa recipe on the internet run to
the store for an ingredient weforgot, or replace something
that broke. Money was tight,time was precious, and things
(30:37):
were just too far away toconstantly be running back and
forth. Today, I laugh at moviesthat show farmers walking around
without a task in the middle ofthe day, or driving into town
just to buy a single sack offlour. potlucks are simple
custom that seemed to transcendpolitical affiliation, economic
status, religious orientation,and all other social
(30:59):
demographics. While the cultureof rural communities is
constantly changing, the simplegathering of humans around food
is not our memories, historiesand traditions are intertwined
with food as communication.
Matthew Fluharty (31:12):
Thank you.
Su Legatt (31:13):
So isn't that ridiculous? When you see that in
movies, farmers just going forthis long stroll conversation in
the middle of the afternoon,just just talking about their
troubles as though they don'thave anything else in the world
to do in my life. I have neverseen that happen.
Matthew Fluharty (31:33):
And it seems to sit even within one of the
things that I feel is really,really provocative about dish is
that you have those set ofassociations.
And yet in what you just sharedfrom this beautiful introduction
to the book on dish, like welearned that it's an intimacy
(31:54):
with the cultural history ofthis region, which allows this
project to really flourish theway that it has inferred to open
up that notion of invitation.
Su Legatt (32:05):
Yeah, I think it's more than just this region, I
think there's a certain level ofnostalgia
that everybody can relate to,even if you grew up in the city.
What was life like, as a kid,pre internet, I didn't grow up
in the city. But I know myfriends who said they rode their
bikes, everywhere, you had to gooutside and play, you still had
(32:29):
to go outside and play. Maybeeverybody rode their bikes to so
and so's house because they hadan Atari. That was the cool kids
house because mom and dad gotthem in Atari, or they played
street hockey outside, or theyall met at this particular park
or something, it's verydifferent today, there might be
a little bit of that still. Andeven the rural communities,
(32:50):
they're still a little bit ofplaying outside and going and
exploring the woods and thingslike that. But I think the great
divide, it's not so much ruraland urban its technology. And
that there's that I think I'mpart of that sliver generation
of not quite Gen X not quitemillennial, but that sliver
(33:11):
generation that the internetcreated. So dish touches on
several points related to therural community, where I'm
fascinated by specific to therural community, this cultural
shift that's happening with thedecrease of family farms, first
(33:34):
of all, but also the mass exodusthat's happening due to lack of
opportunity, and the ability tosupport your family. So people
are moving away just because ofless jobs. So because the family
farms went away, that led tofewer job opportunities, and the
(33:55):
mass exodus that's happening inthe rural communities that lead
to fewer opportunities to gatherand socialize. All of that
created the reduced opportunityto celebrate and
propriate culture, I don't knowhow else to say that. So dish is
(34:19):
a gathering that brings peopletogether and provides
socialization. But because everyfood item that's brought is a
family or an ancestral dish,there's also a cheeky sort of
one an opportunity to celebratefamily and family history, but
also a little bit of ademographic sort of study. Where
(34:42):
if a lot of the dishes that arebrought are German, for example,
there's a strong Germanpopulation and that community,
sometimes they are all over theplace across like completely
random and surprising andfascinating and it's great and
Sometimes they're very tight.
And the community is not exactlywhat you'd expect it to be.
(35:04):
Because I never know going inwhat we're going to get. But
they know. And they go, Oh, Oh,you didn't bring your whatever.
Oh, it's nice to see this. Iremember I had this last time.
So it's fun. And then you get tohear the stories. And the first
question I asked at the at everydish event is what did you bring
in Why? And it's a greaticebreaker for them because they
have pride in what they made.
(35:28):
And they want to talk about thisis my mother's donut recipe, or
this is a dish that has beenpassed down at for generations,
or I made this in honor of, youknow, so when you start the
conversation off with somethingyou can be proud about, it opens
the door to potentially talkabout something a little bit
(35:51):
more challenging, as opposed tostarting with something that's
really hard and working your wayup to something you're proud of.
Matthew Fluharty (35:59):
Are there conversations to stand out to
from these dish events, or folksthat are in that space where
they're able to think together?
About a story or a situationthat might? Might Harken to what
you're sharing? Yes, there.
There's moments of differencethat I appreciate one of the
(36:19):
phrases. You know, in Minnesota,we have Minnesota nice. I think
there's also Wisconsin, nice.
There's southern hospitality.
There's this regional notionthat there's a kindness or
there's a general hospitalityassociated to this particular
region. I don't think everyregion associates that way. I
think certain reasons take pridein being tough. Or being you
(36:42):
know, I think tough is a goodword.
Su Legatt (36:46):
So but in Minnesota, we have a Minnesota nice. So one
of the things that stand out forme is people who are new to the
region in just about every dishevent, there was at least one
person who was new to Minnesotaand their stories or their
general take, because we wouldtalk about Minnesota nights and
(37:06):
whether or not it was real, isit? Is it real? Does it exist?
And the people who are fromMinnesota would generally say at
first they'd say, Oh, yes, yes,absolutely, yes.
And then somebody wouldintroduce,
maybe it's a passive aggressive.
You know, it's more, if youcan't say anything nice, don't
say anything at all. It'slearning to refrain yourself,
(37:29):
and to restrain yourself. It'smore about just holding back.
It's not imposing yourself ismore what Minnesota is about.
And then the conversation wouldgo into No, sometimes people
just say, No, it's not becausethe new people would point out
in the front end, maybe theywould be invited over to
(37:53):
somebody's house, but thatperson didn't actually mean it.
Like, oh, it'd be great to gettogether some time. Okay, see
you bye.
That's it. There's no follow up.
There's no, Let's exchangenumbers. There is no great when
would you like to get together?
(38:13):
It's an empty gesture, which isnot necessarily kind. It's more
just the perception of kindness.
Um,it's funny because I was at a
conference in Oakland,California, a long time ago, and
we were doing an activelistening exercise. And when it
(38:33):
was my turn, I said, you know,I'm from Minnesota, and I told
my little spiel, and at the endof our workshop, this young lady
came up to me and said, Whereare you from in Minnesota?
And I said, Oh, it's a smalltown, you won't know it. It's
(38:54):
called Perm. And she goes, ah,I'm moving to Perm.
And I go, I go, no way. I go,where are you from? And she
goes, San Francisco. I said, Howare you moving to perm,
Minnesota. She met a guy at a coop in California. And he was
(39:16):
moving home to perm to take overthe family farm. And they were
getting married, they weregetting married, and they were
going to move to perm to takeover the family farm and she
goes, what should I know?
What should I know about movingto Minnesota and living in this
small town?
(39:39):
I said, Well, first of all,you're going to be a novelty.
People are going to befascinated because you're from
California, at first,and then they're going to
disappear. So at the beginning,they're going to be fascinated
by you, and then they're goingto disappear. So if you want to
make connections and you want toget to know people
(39:59):
You're going to have to do thegroundwork, you're going to have
to be the one that reaches out.
So, join an organization, get onthe board of some group.
I know there's an Arts Council,join the Arts Council, do some
things to get yourselfintegrated into that community
right away. And then you'llstart making connections and
(40:21):
it'll go from there. But if youdon't do that, you're always
going to be an outsider.
So anyway , I kind of got offtopic.
Matthew Fluharty (40:29):
That totally tracks with my experience and
Winona.
Su Legatt (40:33):
I think it does. It's funny, because that came up in
the conversations with dish alot to where people were living,
you can live in a house for 20years, and it's still the
previous owner, oh, that'sJohnson's house. You know, it's
not your house. You live inJohnson's house, your, you know,
(40:54):
your Fluharty. But you live inJohnson's house, even though
you've lived in that house for20 years.
Matthew Fluharty (40:59):
So I've lived in the upper Midwest for five
years now, andthat term, Minnesota Nice's and
then there was like thisconversation about it when I
moved, moved here, that wasreally percolating. But I love
this notion that came out ofjust what the natural dialogues
were during the dish process forthat being holding back instead
(41:22):
of Minnesota nice, which feels Imean, from my own personal
experience feels close tosomething that I experienced.
And it, it brings me back tothe dish book itself, which is a
really incredible book, I haveto say, you're also a very
accomplished photographer. Sothe dishes themselves appear
(41:43):
here. And they look incredible.
I mean, like compositionally,they're they look really
striking, but they also looklike things, many of them things
that I would love to eat. So thegenre of this book is really
cool, because itplays in part with the notion of
what a recipe book should be,while also really subverting our
(42:05):
expectations of what a recipebooks should be. And also
subverting our expectations ofwhat a quote unquote, art book,
whatever that means anymore.
Should be right.
Su Legatt (42:20):
It's funny, you say that, because I had a really
hard time writing my grantapplication. This book is
supported by a Minnesota StateArts board grant. And I had a
really hard time writing thegrant application, because I'm
like, well, it's an art bookthat includes recipes. But I
don't want people to think it'slike a cook book, because it's
not going to have these juicy,full display, food pics, I think
(42:45):
of the photographs likeportraits of the individuals who
brought them, but I don't wantthem to be tainted by all of the
outside information. So it'salmost like a Richard Avedon
approach to the objects. So theyhave just that flat, that plain
white background, and all youget is the object, like a very
(43:08):
studio still life, almostcommercial, but warmer. And I
had no idea how to describethat. In my application.
Thank you for saying that.
Matthew Fluharty (43:19):
It's a challenge, you're describing a
kind of book that we haven'tseen, until you've created it,
maybe to say again, what Ilearned through having the
privilege and the pleasure justto sit with this book is that
the form and the project itself,defamiliarizes our relationship
to food and to gathering and tothe forms of cultural
(43:44):
association that are reallyinterlinked with those things. I
think this goes back to thatnotion of maybe what we're
talking about with Minnesotanice, really is a quality of
holding back in that.
Two things happen when I satwith the Dish book.
One of the most immediate thingsthat happened that would maybe
(44:08):
counter general expectationsabout what would be contained in
these pages, is thatthere is a really broad cross
cultural representation here offolks who attend to dish events
and have the food link to theirown cultural events and
ancestral traditions. So we haveNigerian fried rice.
(44:30):
And then we have cookie dough.
And if you were to ask me in onesentence, how do we talk about
contemporary rural experience? Iwould say well, those two dishes
are both on the table. If thatcatches us off guard, that's an
opportunity for us to thinkabout what is at stake right
now. In rural communities.
Also and something thatwas very meaningful to me, as
(44:51):
well was I think some element ofthe holding back the maybe it's
it is a quality of life, andMinnesota or lightlife, in the
upper Midwest, in the way thatfolks who are European descended
hold back, is that we're alsoholding back our own cultural
difference. Andeven for folks who may be come
(45:12):
from that wider Europeantradition in this book, there is
difference, there's a lot ofdifference there.
There's a lot of difference thatI think sometimes we don't sit
with enough.
Su Legatt (45:29):
What just really strikes me about the work of
dish. And maybe it's indistinction to the other forms
of social practice you mentionedearlier, we get to that point
through being in relationshipwith each other, as opposed to
it being some sort of reallydogmatic statement about what a
project is. Sothere were supposed to be four
additional dish events that gotcancelled because of COVID. And
(45:51):
I ended up having an onlineevent via zoom. And at first, I
was really upset that those lastfour events were canceled, I was
really excited about them. Andthey spread the radius of dish a
little bit further north east,which was really exciting for
me, but to kind of hiddenblessings came from that. The
(46:12):
first was that because thoseevents were canceled, I didn't
have to edit the photographs Icould include in the book. So
every single dish that wasbrought to the dish events is
included in the book, which I'mso happy about because every
participant who came isimportant. And I wanted them
represented, because I wasI lost sleep, I literally was up
(46:36):
at night trying to figure outwho do I not include? I don't
want to not include somebody. SoI just said, you know what I'm
going to make it fit, I'm goingto, I'm going to have to include
everybody. So not having thosecuts made that possible. The
other thing that happened is theonline event, I had participants
from North Carolina, Missouri,and Kansas, attend the event,
(46:57):
who would not otherwise be ableto attend, but they all had
Minnesota roots. And they wereall so excited to just talk
about these topics, because theywere living in communities with
people who did not necessarilyrelate in the same way that they
(47:18):
did to the topics we werediscussing. One woman pointed
out where she lives, they don'thave bars, they have squares. So
we have, we have like lemonbars, or we have seven layer
bars, they have squares. So whenshe brings bars to any event, or
they have full pans or whatever,like they just bring the whole
(47:40):
pan and then cut that line orwhatever. So that was like very
exciting to her that she couldtalk about bars, and people
understood what she was talking.
So there's that language, rightwhere you're speaking your
language. It's funny howprojects develop. And it's one
of those things whereif you hold on too tight, the
project won't be what it'ssupposed to become. One of the
(48:01):
things I get asked a lot is howdo you know when your project is
over? And I generally say, Idon't know, if my projects are
ever over, I feel like theyevolve and morph into the next
thing. And with the dish bookcoming out, it's it's hard
because now there's more peoplewho want to host dish events.
(48:25):
But at the same time, to me,it's like, this is a good
benchmark for the nextevolution. And there's more
things I want to do. Movingforward to the point.
About a year ago, somebody cameup to me and go, are you the
potluck lady?
(48:45):
And I was I was shaken by that.
And I was like, I don't know, ifI want to be known as the
potluck lady.
I'm like, oh, it might be timeto evolve again. So. But it's
funny, because it's a criticismI've received in the past where
I think my work has a generalsort of look about it where I've
(49:07):
been told it's very clean. Butthere's a there's a cheekiness
to it. Like there's a slighthumor, but I've also been
criticized because there's,there's no solid, like, I'm not
a landscape photographer, or I'mnot, you know, textile sculptor,
and I've been criticized forthat in the past, but I think,
(49:32):
you know, to, to plead my case,I think it's important to make
the work that you feel bestrepresents what
needs to be representative ofthe community or of the story
you're trying to tell becausenot every story is going to be
told best the same way. And thatsounds like I get that that
(49:55):
sounds.
I don't know like I'm making itup or something or I'm just
Whatever. But part of it also isthat I like to learn. I like to
learn new things, I like tochallenge myself, I like to
learn from other people a lot.
And I think that's where dishcomes from too is I like hearing
their stories. And when theyintroduce a new idea to me, I
met a woodturner. And now I'mjust like, I need to do
(50:17):
woodturning.
I need to learn how to woodturn. So if 10 years down the
road, there's a project thatcomes up that involves
recovering trees, I havesomething in my toolbox that
allows me to present somevariation of this tree, I
(50:39):
recovered from this farmer'sfield. And I can tell the story
of it. And I've created somepiece that you know what I mean,
because there's the physicalobject associated to the object,
which is comes from the specificplace, which is tied to the
story. And, yeah, so I want todo justice. So I have to have
this ability tomorph and transition. So I can
(50:59):
best tell the storyfor that person or for that
object for that community. Intalking about woodturning.
Matthew Fluharty (51:12):
And then thinking about how a story is
best told, it takes me to thework in advice from Minnesota
grandmothers, which is also onview at the Plains Art Museum
for the high visibilityexhibition. And so I'm wondering
if you could share a little bitabout how this project came
about because it centers again,in one of these objects, which
(51:35):
for many folks is a real centraleveryday material object.
Su Legatt (51:40):
I can't even remember the year that I put out the call
on social media, I say callart language I posted, I just
posted on social media. Whatadvice did your Minnesota
grandmother give you somethinglike that, and then people just
responded to it. And I collectedthe feedback, wrote it down,
stuck it on a piece of paper andjust let it percolate. It
(52:04):
started around the time that mymother's mother started having
health issues. And goingdownhill a little bit. And I was
thinking a lot aboutgenerational knowledge, the
information that we pass fromparent to child, and for me, and
at the same time I do, I think alot and I have projects in the
(52:28):
past that never quite came tofruition about objects that
represent an aspect of identityfor whatever reason. And for me,
one of those objects is a doilyone because in my family, the
women crochet, so we havedoilies in our homes. So there's
that just the aesthetic of thedoily in your home. And like you
(52:51):
said, it's this object that wehave, right. But also,
crocheting is a skill that wastaught to mother to daughter
passed down from generations.
And as far as I know, I'm thelast one.
(53:11):
And there's a weird sensation inbeing the last daughter to know
how to crochet in the family. Sothere's a weight that's tied to
that.
So I started thinking about therelationship to mother the
relationship to grandmother, thebaggage, the emotional baggage
(53:31):
that's tied to the doily for mepersonally. And then I had I put
that out there. You know theadvice for Minnesota
grandmothers. And all of this ishappening.
I'm living in Morehead and FargoMoorhead has spring cleanup week
which is like my Christmas. Ilove it. Because spring cleanup
(53:52):
week up here, you can putanything on the curb. There's
limitations, it can't bechemicals or electronics,
whatever. And they will clean upthe garbage service people will
take it away. Inevitably, peopleshop the berm, you drive you
cruise up and down the streetsand you go through people's
piles and you discover foundobjects in the art world. It's
(54:15):
found object. So one time, Idon't know if the person was a
furniture maker or an a pollsteror what but I found these huge
boxes of fabric swatches fromthe 60s and 70s. I hit the
jackpot, right? So I'm puttingthese in the back of my car, no
idea what I'm gonna do withthem. I'm sitting on them for
(54:35):
two or three years. So I've gotthese fabric swatches from a few
years earlier. I'm thinkingabout object connected to
identity. My grandmother'shealth declining and I start
reminiscing on generationalknowledge. All of these things
converge and you get the advicefrom instead of grandmother
(54:55):
pieces. So these are thestatements. The advice is
screen printed onto the foundobject fabric, which is
stretched over wooden disks. Andthen the doilies are crocheted
borders on those disks, and thenthey're starched and presented
as wall pieces. So when you seethem in a formal gallery
(55:20):
setting, first of all putting adoily in a gallery, hilarious.
Another hero of mine is MarcelDuchamp if you hadn't picked up
on that already, so presentingin the data lists are an
influence for me.
Putting a doily a starched doilyin a gallery space cracks me up
(55:40):
way too much. And the doiliesare bright colors, they're not
usually white. And then theyhave these phrases on them. Like
don't sit on cold concrete, orlove life. Never stop learning
stuff like that. So they'restarched, and they're up on the
walls, and they look like polkadots. And they're bright colors.
And they're funny, but they'resentimental or nostalgic. And
(56:01):
for me, they're very personal.
And I crocheted some of them.
But my mom helped me out. Andshe crocheted some of them as
well. And what's funny, and Itake a little bit of pride in
this is my mom, and I can'tremember who crocheted which
ones, which I'm very proud ofbecause I think she's way better
(56:22):
than I am. So if we can't tell,that means I did a pretty good
job.
Matthew Fluharty (56:29):
That's really inadvertent high praise.
Su Legatt (56:34):
So it she actually she contributed to the Facebook
response to and she has herpiece in her house. So hers was
when making bread, make itworthwhile, bake at least 15
loaves at a time, which she doeswhen my mom bakes bread, she
does at least 12 to 15 loaves.
Matthew Fluharty (56:55):
Wow, that's a practice of invitation right
there.
Su Legatt (56:59):
So she that was her grandmother's advice to her.
Matthew Fluharty (57:03):
Thank you. So as, as we kind of come to the
end of our time together. And,you know, in thinking about
peace forms of everydaygenerational memory, you've just
shared with advice fromMinnesota grandmothers, are
there some projects or theinkling of some questions that
you're thinking through thatmight lead your work? In the
(57:25):
year ahead?
Su Legatt (57:27):
Yeah, I've I've been thinking a lot about
generational knowledge, but alsolearning through osmosis, what
we acquire simply by beingpresent.
Andespecially as a white, straight,
cisgender female, what I ammissing out on by not being
(57:49):
present. So you asked me before,what am I currently reading
right now. So I'm reading somethings from my own personal
growth right now. But I've beendoing more just trying to quiet
my mind. And that's one of thethings I've really appreciated
about 2020 is I know, people aresick of zoom. But I feel like
zoom has been like a greatequalizer where everyone has to
(58:10):
call in on the conference call.
It's not eight people in a roomand one person calling in, I
don't have to drive for hours toa meeting in Minneapolis
anymore. Everyone gets to callin. And I love that. So I've
been thinking a lot about thisidea of equality in terms of in
(58:34):
physical space, and how werelate to each other.
racially, and religiously andother demographics, but also in
our physical space, rural andurban, whether you have an
apartment or a house, whetheryou have a large house or small
(58:54):
house, just those types ofthings. But then also I've been
thinking about where I stand asan artist. And when things were
getting really hard. I had totake a moment to think about
where I was at as a socialpractice artist and somebody who
posted events aroundconversation.
(59:17):
And whether or not I wasequipped to continue to do that.
Am I the person who should behosting events and having
conversations did people want tohave conversations about food
and shifting cultural dynamicsin rural Minnesota?
(59:41):
AndI don't know if I've answered
that yet. ButI think things are starting and
again, there's that pendulumright to every action. There's
an opposite action.
I think things are startingto quiet down a little bit, for
people personally,I don't know if people are
(01:00:09):
ready to have thoseconversations yet. But I think
there's room for otherconversations. And
hopefully other conversationscan open the door. Because in
the end, it's reallyI was talking to a friend a
couple of weeks ago.
(01:00:32):
And he was getting reallyfrustrated, because he, he felt
like he was surrounded by justhorrible people. Like, why am I
always around horrible people.
And I said, if you have a verysensitive radar said, The trick
is to train yourself to turnthat down and find one thing in
(01:00:59):
common. If you can find onething that you can agree on, you
can build off of that.
The problem is that we areallowing these
loud voices to stand in front ofus.
And we need to let them be loud.
But let them be loud elsewherefor just a little while, so that
(01:01:24):
we can have that quiet moment.
So we can connect with somebodyhere. Let them be loud here. Let
us connect here.
And that's a very difficultthing to do. Because the
internet is in our pocket, everymoment every day.
(01:01:49):
AndI don't know how to get around
that. So I think introducingthings like Dish, and Advice
from Minnesota Grandmothershaving a little bit of sugar
with your medicine. And a littlebit of humor, a little bit of
nostalgia,a little bit of realizing that
we've all felt like the outsiderat some point. We've all had to
(01:02:12):
learn a new trade. We've all hadto discover something. We've all
been naive. We've all saidsomething that was wrong. We
were all offensive by mistake.
You know, we've all done it.
It's just learning from that andmoving forward and growing.
Matthew Fluharty (01:02:39):
Su, thank you so much for your time and for
joining us on high visibility.
Su Legatt (01:02:43):
Thank you. It was fun.
Matthew Fluharty (01:02:50):
Thanks again to Su for her time and
generosity in this conversation.
Please check out the show notesin the High Visibility site,
inhighvisibility.org for furtherinformation on all the work and
ideas discussed here. Pleasealso check out Plains Art Museum
at plainsart.org to learn moreabout the High Visibility
(01:03:11):
exhibition, which is currentlyon view until May 30 2021.
Thanks so much for spending sometime this conversation. Take
care
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.