November 14, 2024 • 47 mins
Can heartbreak lead to happiness? Breakups to breakthroughs? Renowned divorce coach and author Sara Davison says, “Yes they can!” Actually, Sara’s mantra is “Screw You! Watch This!” It’s a reminder to all those who have been through divorce, betrayals, and severed relationships that you can turn your devastating ends into powerful catalysts for personal growth and empowerment. From narcissism to parental alienation, Sara not only shares her personal divorce journey but also the impact uncoupling can have on the family when you lack the right tools and support to heal, grow, and uncover your hidden strengths.
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“Split: Breakup to Breakthrough in 30 Days or Less”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sara Davison (00:06):
sometimes the biggest gifts in our life,
with hindsight, are the times that gave us
the greatest pain, and that is a conscious
choice.
Though that is a conscious choice, that is
that am I going to step up or step down
with this?
But if you step up, that's how you can
alchemize that into something that really
is a huge opportunity moving forward.
Hilary Russo (00:29):
It's messy, it's emotional, it can even be
traumatic and toxic.
I know, let's face it.
Breakups and divorce can turn that fairy
tale that you have that relationship into a
traumatic reality.
That you have that relationship into a
traumatic reality and suddenly you're
questioning if happily ever after is even a
(00:50):
real thing, because that's not what you
signed up for, is it?
But here's the deal.
It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom.
There's growth in the grief and even a
little humor in the heartbreak.
You just have to know where to look.
And this is coming from someone who's been
down that road, been down that highway and
even a little humor in the heartbreak.
You just have to know where to look.
And this is coming from someone who's been
down that road, been down that highway more
than once.
(01:11):
I have to preface with that and I can tell
you that there is a light at the end of the
tunnel.
I promise you and people who can be that
guide by your side and look, I'm one of
them.
I talk about the hug it out method all the
time on how you can find the healing and
the understanding and the gratitude and the
humor in all of it.
Right, that's part of your healing journey.
(01:32):
But I'm not alone in this journey.
I'm not alone on somebody who can be that
guy by your side, and that is why Sarah
Davison is here.
She is the divorce coach, twice
best-selling author, an expert on breakup
and divorce, and joins us on HIListically
Speaking to help you heal and find yourself
again.
Because Sarah, isn't that?
What it's really all about is finding self
(01:54):
again.
Sara Davison (01:55):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm super excited to be here.
It's all about turning that pain into your
superpower and actually learning that
actually a breakup or a divorce can be a
really valuable life lesson that actually
can turn into something really positive.
You can come out stronger, happier, more
(02:15):
confident.
So lots of positives.
So, as you said, I totally agree, it's not
all doom and gloom.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Hilary Russo (02:23):
And a lot of times we come into this work
because we realize that we've been through
something like you say, that pain to
purpose, like having the story ourselves,
is sometimes what moves us into the work we
do, and you're one of those.
I mean, you've been through divorce
yourself and sometimes that can be even
embarrassing when we think, oh, this is
what I do for a living, and now I'm going
it through myself.
How was that journey for you personally?
Sara Davison (02:45):
Oh, yeah, great question.
I mean, I was what I thought.
Happily married, I worked with my husband.
We had a global business, we had nearly 200
staff, we had an office in London, an
office in Sydney.
We'd been married about three years.
My son, our son, was one at the time when I
realized, literally overnight, that my
(03:07):
husband not only no longer wanted to be
married to me, but he'd actually found
somebody else and was madly in love with
them.
And it doesn't stop there.
Because she was 12 years younger, which
never helps Hilary, by the way, never helps.
Stunningly beautiful Again, doesn't help.
But also she was pregnant and that was
(03:30):
literally like it was a freight train that
hit my life and turned everything upside
down.
Overnight I lost not only my husband, but
who I thought was my best friend, my
soulmate, my business partner and the
father to my son, and I became a single
parent who, instead of having my future
mapped out with this business that I loved
running, suddenly everything was up in the
(03:51):
air and I did a lot of that ugly crying on
the bathroom floor.
I did a lot of phoning my mom at 2am and
trying to figure things out because I
couldn't sleep, and it was a couple of
months of the pain, the heartache, the
humiliation that you touched on in front of
all the staff.
Everyone seemed to know about the affair,
rather than me, and I'd actually gone out
(04:14):
to Sydney, to Australia, to our office out
there, and I don't know if this happened to
you, hilary, I don't know your divorce
circumstances, but when someone finds out
that you now know that your partner cheated
on you, suddenly everyone comes out of the
woodwork with their story.
It's almost like it's their therapy to say,
oh, thank God, you knew.
I didn't know whether to tell you but.
(04:35):
And then they launch into the story.
But that's like another dagger through the
heart again and again and again.
And being in the Australia office, someone
had opened up about something they'd
experienced with my ex at one point and I
had to leave the office and I went for a
walk down Balmoral Beach Now it's beautiful,
it's white sand, it's turquoise sea and I
(04:56):
sat there crying my eyes out and I thought
what is going on in my life?
Like suddenly, from being happy, from being
thinking everything was sorted and I was
just enjoying the journey, but the pain was
all consuming, that physical pain feels
like, even though it's an emotional pain,
it is all consuming, and that's when I had
(05:16):
my pivotal moment, which was okay, I can't
take this pain anymore.
I have a choice I either let this define me
or I step up and I find a way through,
because there wasn't any help at that point.
I have a choice I either let this define me
or I step up and I find a way through,
because there wasn't any help at that point.
I tried to find help.
There was therapy, but that isn't the same
as coaching.
Coaching is a lot more directional, a lot
more results, focused, step by step.
(05:37):
So I decided I'm going to create my own
tools.
I'm going to combine my coaching experience
been a coach for about 15 years at that
point with this divorce and create
something to get me and my son through,
which is what I did.
And in that moment, my motto was born,
which is screw you, watch this.
Hilary Russo (05:54):
And that was it.
I love that Screw you Like.
The biggest revenge is what they say.
The biggest revenge is being able to be
resilient and come over it, right.
Sara Davison (06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
Hilary Russo (06:09):
Amazing.
That's a hard place to be, especially being
in the field of being a coach, somebody
that you have been coaching other people.
And then you're going through the journey
yourself and to go back to what you're
asking me what my journey was, yes, that
whole idea of being betrayed because
betrayal is like an extra dagger to the
heart and then when people say things like
you know, we always had a feeling about
that person or come to think of it and
you're sitting there you want to be angry
(06:30):
on one side, like why didn't you tell me?
And then the other side you're thinking how
did I not know?
So you start doubting your own ability to
make decisions, and good ones.
Sara Davison (06:40):
And I found out that very quickly realized
that it had actually been very toxic
relationship and again I didn't think that
abuse was something that happened to people
like me.
As victims of abuse, we will minimize it
and normalize it to stay in it.
So behaviors that were totally unacceptable
became sort of everyday occurrences over a
(07:01):
period of time and coming out of that was
also a whole revelation of actually now I'm
really seeing the wood for the trees and
this really wasn't good.
So again, more embarrassment, more
humiliation, more self-doubt, more what the
hell was I doing?
Moments.
So yeah, it was a journey and I think a lot
of people go through that, and what I found
was there was no support, nobody that
(07:22):
really understood.
Friends and family can be really supportive
and reassuring and if you've got a legal
advisor, great, they can pat you on the
back and say we'll get through this.
But if you don't have the help like with
the mental wellbeing because that is
fundamentally what it comes down to the
stress, the pressure, the overwhelm, the
fear there's so many negative emotions,
especially, as you said, with the betrayal
on top.
There's so many negative emotions,
(07:43):
especially, as you said, with the betrayal
on top.
There's so many things.
So actually dealing with.
That was the priority.
Hilary Russo (07:50):
And really finding the right kind of
support.
Like you said, you can have different
support in different areas.
In fact, in this day and age and I've even
seen this I have close friends that are
divorce attorneys, one in particular that
has even gone on to do additional training
in narcissistic abuse, because that's a
whole different area that we are seeing.
(08:10):
It's like a buzzword really, like
everybody's labeling everybody narcissist.
But that's a behavior, right, but it also
can be.
We can have narcissistic tendencies and
that doesn't make you somebody that has
narcissistic personality disorder.
But having a clear understanding of how you
are being abused or gaslit or love bombed,
(08:32):
I mean with all these terms out there, how?
do you know what you're going through
during that time.
Sara Davison (08:39):
Well, it's such.
I mean, you're so right, it's such an
important topic right now and I have a
training school.
I set up a training school to train other
coaches to help me, because my mission is
to get these tools that I created out to as
many people as possible, and on my own I
realized there's so many people that needed
this help because it made such a positive
difference.
So I set up a training school and now we've
trained over 650 coaches in 27 different
(09:02):
countries, so that that's really helping
people and getting and getting the help out
there.
But what we've seen, especially since COVID,
is the rise of domestic abuse, so toxic
relationships, and that includes
narcissistic behavior like the gaslighting,
confusing behavior you were talking about,
covers, coercive control, emotional abuse,
(09:23):
but that never is isolated.
It taps into financial control, it taps
into sexual control.
It's very isolating as well.
So the challenge is I don't really like the
narcissist word On my training.
We call it the M word.
I don't train my coaches to use it because
it focuses the victim on their ex and the
(09:46):
only way to take your power back, which is
because it is a controlling abuse.
They are literally controlling everything
you're doing and, on some level, even your
thoughts, even if you're not living with
them anymore, you're renting them space
24-7 in your brain.
So we've got to find ways to emotionally
disassociate from them and so labeling them
(10:06):
and looking at what they're doing and
getting caught up in the what I call.
They throw grenades at you and you have to
then chase down the rabbit holes to try and
answer.
Why are they saying that?
That's not true, that's upsetting, that's
hurtful.
Why aren't they turning up on time?
Why aren't they sharing that financial
information?
It's so confusing.
If you go down those routes and chase the
(10:28):
grenades they're throwing at you, all
that's going to happen is they're going to
go off in your face.
You're going to end up more confused, more
emotionally exhausted.
So the trick is to take a step back and not
focus on the narcissistic traits.
It's more to focus on you, to take your
power back and ask better questions like
how can I control this situation?
(10:49):
What can I do right now to take my power
back?
So, again, yeah this is all very hot topic
at the moment, but I think we've got to not
get sucked into the focusing on them,
because that's what they want and that
feeds it.
Hilary Russo (11:01):
Yes, I love that you mentioned that,
because you know, there was a phrase I
remember going in that was shared with me
when I was going through my second divorce,
and that was sometimes you have to play the
fool that thinks that he's fooling you, or
play the fool that thinks he's fooling you,
meaning like just even responding and
reacting to what they're doing, it's
(11:22):
fueling them, right.
And then it's the same thing that almost
and I feel this way about when we talk
about the names of perpetrators or the
criminals, when we mention their name,
we're giving them life.
So the whole idea is I think it goes back
to your whole screw you thing it's focusing
on me, it's about me, it's about building
(11:43):
me, my resiliency, my power.
So the more fuel you're giving to somebody
else, the more power that's being taken
away from you.
That's brilliant, you're spot on.
Sara Davison (11:53):
And the challenge with that is it's easy
for somebody to say don't focus on them,
focus on you.
So you need to give them the how, which is
what I created, which is what I call my
gameplay checklist, if you like.
So it's basically understanding that,
whether we like it or not, we are in a game.
Now a lot of people go oh sorry, I don't
like the fact that you're saying I'm in a
game, I'm not doing anything.
(12:14):
I know it's them, but whether we like it or
not, we are in their game and we're going
to be moved around like pawns on a
chessboard unless we learn the rules of the
game.
So I spell out the rules of the game so
that we can master the rules of the game
and then be two steps ahead.
Now, if you're two steps ahead, you can do
very cleverly.
(12:34):
What you've just been saying is like you go,
I see what you're doing and now I choose
not to chase down those rabbit holes.
I'm going to.
I can see tactically, you're doing the
lying, I'm checking it off my checklist.
The lying, the gaslighting, the confusing,
belittling, insulting, yeah, all those
things, yeah, okay, so now you're classic
because they all play from the same
(12:55):
textbook.
It might feel confusing, but when you
actually break it down, it's actually
textbook behavior.
Now, your pet psycho you will know better
than anyone.
You'll know the tendencies.
They tend to do more of the gaslighting or
more of the isolating or the threatening or
whatever.
But you'll know them and you'll see, and
then you'll see right.
Okay, these are the tactics you're
deploying in this game.
(13:16):
Now what do I want to do?
I know where you're wanting me to go.
You want me to be upset or hysterical, or
file another legal letter.
It costs me more money, or whatever it is.
I'm going to take a step back now because
I'm emotionally disassociating from all
that drama and I'm able to make a better
informed decision, and so that's kind of
where we give people the how, which
(13:36):
actually enables them to feel more
empowered in what is a very disempowering
situation for a lot of people.
Hilary Russo (13:42):
Oh yeah, I.
I remember feeling like that the minute I
was not responding and reacting, and it the
other person becomes unhinged because it's
like you.
There's power in the silence, there's power
and not sharing, because when you're in it
especially if you're in a relationship
where there are those tendencies that you
don't mention, right, you realize that when
(14:02):
you're in it you don't know what the heck
is going on with you.
You think it's you.
You're the one that's losing your mind, and
that's such a part of the psychology of
that illness.
And that disorder, but also when you take
that power back, you are more empowered and
you start building that resiliency.
I do want to go back to what you just
(14:23):
mentioned.
You have a school, a training school.
You say you've certified over 600 people to
get certified in divorce and breakup
training, and we're going to actually drop
something in the notes of this podcast
about your school so that people can take
advantage of an offer if they're looking to
up their level of certification.
(14:43):
If you are actually already a coach or a
therapist or somebody who is supporting
people even divorce lawyers, I'm sure could
benefit from this so that you become more
educated on how to go forward and support
those that you are serving.
Sara Davison (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you don't
actually have to have any coach
qualification to do it.
A lot of my coaches have come from just
going through a really tough breakup,
really getting the pain, having that
empathy, and then I can do the rest.
I've been coaching for gosh 30 years now,
so I've got a lot of experience.
So I fast track you through the coaching
skills and give you the recipe of the tools
(15:19):
and how to put them together to create
those fast, positive transformations with
clients and then, if you want to add, in
the specialist area of domestic abuse and
the toxic relationships and the N-word
stuff.
It's such a rewarding career, I think, a
time when it's much needed as well.
Hilary Russo (15:35):
Yeah, especially when you realize that your
pain has turned into purpose to help other
people.
I think of that myself, and even if people
are taking a course just to self-educate,
it doesn't mean they have to go out there
and use it as a profession.
I think of so many people who are getting
trained, even in the work I do in Havening
or going through my certification.
They might not use it in the workplace,
(15:56):
they might just want to have more tools to
learn how to self-regulate and self-soothe
for themselves right.
So if you think about it that way, just
getting certification just makes you more
aware and educated on ways to deal with
your own life.
Or maybe you have a friend or a family
member going through it and they know that
they can trust and come to you because you
have the skills that Sarah is sharing with
(16:16):
you in her curriculum to make you a more
well-rounded person and knowledgeable in
this area, which could be very, very
traumatic and hard to deal with on an
everyday.
You know, yeah, I know.
Sara Davison (16:28):
I just think it's.
There are also life skills.
You know how to, because a lot of my
training is based on understanding that we
control the remote to our brain.
So and a lot of people don't know that A
lot of people my clients, for example will
come and say well, I'm crying all the time,
my life's ruined because my ex has cheated
on me.
I've got a client at the moment.
(16:48):
He's run off with her best friend from the
school gates.
One of the moms and their kids are best
mates as well.
It's a really tough situation and she's
like my life was over.
I'm never going to find love again.
Now.
I'm not taking away from how painful this
situation is.
However, what we're working on is helping
her to dial down those negative emotions
and put in place specific tools and
(17:10):
techniques, as well as a lot of practical
tips to help her take her power back, and
one of them is self-care.
One of them is literally looking after
yourself, because she turned to various
coping mechanisms that were actually ending
up making her feel worse, and this is
really common, like drinking more.
For example, she likes red wine.
She would usually have a glass in the
evening with her dinner.
(17:30):
Now it's three or four glasses the next day
is having a knock-on impact, and she hadn't
really been consciously aware because it
was her crutch.
But again we can't stop doing something
without replacing it with something else,
because otherwise you're sat there going
well, I want to drink but I can't drink and
that just drives you mad.
So again it's coming up with other
solutions that she can go to that give her
that soothing, that help her deal
(17:51):
bereavement.
It could also you could use those life
skills for any scenario challenging
behavior in the workplace.
And actually that's interesting too,
because now there's been a huge increase
and I've seen this in the States, I've seen
(18:16):
it all over the world in the amount of
businesses that are now looking for breakup,
divorce and domestic abuse coaching,
support for employees.
Because finally the research is showing and
it's finally out there now someone's done
it, that Harvard Business Journal did it to
show the massive reduction in productivity
if you are going through a divorce 40%
(18:38):
reduction in ability to focus and perform
in the workplace 40 percent.
And not just for the year of the divorce,
the year before, the year during and the
year after as you're trying to put your
life back together.
Maybe you're out on the dating scene or
maybe you've got different kid arrangements
or your house is a bit further away from
work.
There's so many things to work out.
(19:00):
So, yeah, it's definitely something that
those skills can be used in lots and lots
of different areas.
Hilary Russo (19:06):
Wow, that is an astronomical percentage 40%.
So your productivity declines by 40%, or
we're seeing that when you are going
through a life change like a divorce or a
major breakup, yeah, okay, so this isn't
like and this isn't just affecting your
personal life.
This actually does have an ability to
(19:28):
affect your professional life, which I see
that with clients as well.
But having someone that's specifically
designed and trained in divorce and breakup
coaching could support you on a different
level.
Obviously, we need coaches in different
areas, we need practitioners, we need
support for the different kinds of things
we're going through in life.
So if this is something that resonates with
you or you know somebody who is going
(19:49):
through this journey, pass this podcast
episode along.
Let them know that this conversation
between myself and with Sarah exists, and
it could provide you that something extra
that you might not have thought about
before.
So definitely pass along this HIListically
speaking episode.
Sara Davison (20:06):
Do you think, Hilary, it's kind of strange.
Right Like when you were going through your
divorce, I was looking for help and there
was lots of help.
If I wanted to lose weight, there are a
thousand groups I could join.
If I wanted to stop smoking which I didn't
smoke there are a million groups I could
choose.
But heartbreak, which is something that
every single person on the planet goes
through at least once Some of us a few more
(20:26):
times than that, right, so yeah, so why was
there no help?
And this was what I was fascinated by this.
So now I've created these online support
groups.
We have eight hours of group coaching every
week.
They're less than a dollar an hour to
attend.
They're free for the first week.
It's just super accessible so that anyone
(20:46):
can jump on and get help.
I just find it crazy that it didn't exist
before I didn't have it.
Hilary Russo (20:53):
You go to a traditional therapist, a
marriage and family therapist, and look,
they have their place too.
But I feel like I could have used more
support, especially as a young wife, when I
was my first marriage.
And even though that turned out and I have
a relationship with that person that is
positive, it was still a death, a grief, a
(21:15):
loss that I didn't know how to process as a
young divorcee Then the second time around
with more, more tools, more intuition, more
wisdom.
it still hurts and there's different things
we go through and we did different kind of
community.
It really depends on whether you have
children, whether you don't like having
these kind of support networks.
(21:37):
So important right.
Because, it's not just cookie cutter, you
know, I just find it crazy that there
wasn't anything.
Sara Davison (21:44):
I mean, I just think when we're all going
through that and we're all struggling,
whether it's your first heartbreak or
you've been married 40, 50 years, you know
there's there's a level of emotional pain
there and at the moment, you know, trying
to get therapy, help or whatever, if you,
if you get it through, you know sometimes
there's free help available.
There's months and months of wait lists
(22:04):
over here in the UK and it just is, you
know, people can't get the help they need,
which I just think is crazy.
So, yeah, no, it's one of the things that
we get feedback every single day Like thank
you so much, your groups have saved my life.
Even I wouldn't be here because no one
understood it.
I mean it's been.
Hilary Russo (22:23):
The best thing that I've done actually is
that the groups online Then we're
definitely going to share that in the notes
of the podcast as well.
So if you want to connect with Sarah and
the groups that she offers and that sounds
like a very reasonable look, your number
one ROI is Y-O-U.
Anyway, I always say that, and if you can
put aside a dollar a day or a couple of
bucks to get a coffee, your emotional
wellbeing matters too, and then you know
you're in community and with support, so
(22:44):
we'll share that as well.
I do want to talk about your books too.
You have two books out, Uncoupling and the
Split.
Can you share a little bit about both and
how they're different?
Sara Davison (22:55):
Yeah.
So uncoupling is how to survive and thrive
from any kind of breakup or divorce, and
it's packed full of my tools, my techniques,
and it describes a lot of my stories how I
found out that my husband was cheating on
me which was an interesting revelation and
(23:20):
decided the best way for me to get over jet
lag at the time was just to go to the gym
and have a bit of a run and see if I could
shake it off.
And I opened my bedside table and inside
was a contact lens box.
I don't wear contact lenses.
And then I opened it up going oh that's
weird.
And inside was a big false eyelash and I
don't wear false eyelashes either, so am I.
You know, when you sleep on the side of the
(23:40):
bed, that's down the side, so you're gonna
have to squeeze down and like no one's just
gonna be walking past, like if it was a
cleaner and it just wouldn't have been
there.
But interestingly, I went into the first
stage of the loss cycle, the grief cycle,
which is denial.
So I shut it up, put it back in there, went
to the gym, and it was weeks later before I
actually told anybody said anything about
(24:02):
it, cause I knew that once you start
talking about it, it makes it so much more
real and kind of in my heart parts, I guess
I knew.
Hilary Russo (24:08):
So that was more of what a coupling was
about.
Sara Davison (24:10):
More about my story and more about, you
know, my journey through that, which I
think resonates a lot with people.
Then the split is 30 days from breakup to
breakthrough and what it does is it's
broken down into a chapter per day for 30
days.
So if you are going through that
overwhelming just wanna read a chapter,
have a tool or a technique that you can
(24:32):
take on board for that day and then take
you through to the next day, what we do is
it's a 30-day plan, so having your own
coach and you tick it off as you go through
and it just fast tracks you through that
recovery process.
Hilary Russo (24:44):
That's great.
It's like having a little pocket guide just
to help you along like a companion.
Yeah, Amazing.
Just want to remind folks.
We're going to put everything you need in
the podcast notes of this episode with
Sarah Really good information from your
training school to both of the books
uncoupling and the split.
And just this was something I would love to
(25:06):
ask you is the term uncoupling is something
is not new.
It's been around for a while.
Are we finding that we're using that more
than the term breakup than divorce, Like
why?
Why are we finding more of a pull towards
that term?
Sara Davison (25:23):
Well, I think conscious uncoupling sort of
hit the headlines when Gwyneth Paltrow used
it to describe her uncoupling from her
husband and that was an interesting time
because they were managing to do it very
amicably.
And I think conscious uncoupling is when
you go separate ways.
Obviously there will be some conflict,
(25:43):
right, but it's a healthy relationship.
You might argue a little bit over who gets
the piano or, you know, when you see the
kids.
That's normal, there's nothing wrong with
that.
But you can have a conversation and that's
where you're aiming for compromise, even
though you might be a bit fed up with the
other person or you may resent them a
little bit, you know, or it's fizzled, you
know, over a period of time.
(26:04):
So those kind of relationships you can
consciously uncouple, which is great, and I
think that if you can, obviously that's the
best way to do it with communication, and
both of you are aiming for some sort of
compromise.
So you work out that.
You know you want a fair compromise at the
end of the day.
But that's not really what I see that much
of, to be honest.
What I see is what I've coined, aggressive
(26:25):
severing, because aggressive severing is
very different to consciously uncoupling.
Aggressively severing is when you are
divorcing somebody who is hell bent on
causing maximum pain and suffering and
basically total annihilation, which is what
comes with a toxic ex or an abusive ex, and
(26:46):
so I tend to that's my specialist area,
having been through it so that's where we
tend to see a lot of people really needing
help, because obviously it's a bit more of
a emotional rollercoaster at times and it
goes on for a lot longer and you do end up
feeling like the only sane person in the
lunatic asylum if you're dragged through
(27:06):
the toxic court system that is pretty much
global.
The family court system is not fit for
purpose in my opinion.
It's very corrupt and there's a lot of
inbuilt conflicts of interest, which
definitely never serves victims of abuse.
So again, we are specialists at supporting
people through that.
But I think the term uncoupling sort of got
(27:26):
the headlines then and I think that's great
because it puts a massive focus on people's
ability to focus on.
You can do it amicably.
And look, you know Gwyneth did it.
She loves my work.
She invited me personally to write for Goop.
Actually, so write for Goop, which was
amazing, so a highlight of over the last
few years, um.
So I mean it's great that you know that she
(27:47):
does shine a light on these things and that
there is, you know, is a way to do it
amicably.
But obviously, if if you want to do it
amicably, hilary, and your partner doesn't,
your ex doesn't, it's very hard to do it
amicably.
That's the challenge, because they will
drag you through the court system
potentially, or cause many, many more
problems than it needs to have.
So it's not just about you, but at least
(28:09):
you know the support's there if you need it.
Hilary Russo (28:11):
Right and it's always best if you can take
that approach.
And I remember when I was going through my
divorce, the divorce attorney who was
advising me told me that you want to think
of it logistically and not personally.
It's very hard Think of it as a business
contract at this point and it's hard to do
that because it is personal, it feels
(28:33):
personal, but at some point you have to
pull yourself out of it and be like if I
want this to work, first of all, don't make
your children the pawn in the chess game.
Now I don't have children so I didn't have
to worry about that, but so many people do.
And also that whole idea of like.
There's a lot of conflict with parental
alienation, one pitting against the other
(28:54):
with their children.
I see that a lot as a practitioner.
There's always one parent that's not doing
the right thing by their children, let
alone the sanctity of the marriage that
might be dissolving, but at one time you
two came together for a reason.
So what would be your advice to folks that
might be going through this process?
Or entertaining it Doesn't mean you have to
(29:14):
be going through a divorce, just a breakup
or the thought of separating.
What would be your advice to folks that you
can do this with integrity.
Sara Davison (29:25):
Yeah, you absolutely can, and you can still
have integrity even if your partner is
playing games and being toxic.
You can.
If you have kids, the most important thing
is to put their best interests first.
Like you said, you don't want to use them
as a pawn.
Um, and again, there's so many things that
happen.
If you are a victim, survivor, I like to
(29:47):
call a course um of abuse.
The challenge when you go through the
family court system is what you term their
parental alienation.
The challenge with that is that parental
alien if you are turning your children
against your ex as a form of revenge that
is an abusive tactic and it is absolutely
unacceptable.
And we see that a lot, as you were talking
(30:09):
about.
But actually what people don't see it
happens more often, but it's not as talked
about is when you are falsely accused of
alienating your child against the abuser by
the abuser because that maybe the children
are scared to spend time or they're
uncomfortable to spend time there.
So it's very easy then it's weaponized a
lot by law firms to then accuse the victim
(30:32):
of alienating the children, which is a form
of abuse as well.
So it goes both ways and it is really
horrific.
And again, I spend, like I'm sure you do a
lot of my time dealing with victims of that
kind of tactic which is perpetrated through
the family courts.
So my advice is if you can avoid going into
the family courts then I would say that's a
(30:55):
good thing.
You can't always if your, if your ex is
wanting to drag you there.
But just bear in mind it's not just the
financial cost, is also the emotional cost
of being dragged through that, because the
courts are not fun, it's intimidating, it's
scary and in a lot of cases you know you
could swap the words court for casino, in
(31:15):
my opinion, because you just don't know
what's going to happen on the day, what
kind of judge you're going to get, what the
situation is, what your ex is going to say
Again, very difficult to you cannot control
that.
So being able to work out some sort of
mediation is a good way, but you can't do
mediation with an abuser.
But there are different types of mediation
now where you're not in the same room and
(31:35):
hybrid mediation enables you to have a
legal advisor in with you if you want that
as well.
So there's different ways now that have
evolved.
But putting your kids first, doing the
right thing, but heads up doing the right
thing is never the easy thing.
It's really hard.
So, again, if you can get the support from
somebody that can help you through that,
(31:55):
then I think that is what keeps you sane,
and your self-care is going to be
absolutely important during those times too.
Hilary Russo (32:02):
What did you find to be your best way to
self care when you were going through the
process?
Sara Davison (32:08):
Physical exercise was important to me
because actually, when you change your
physiology, you automatically change how
you feel.
But it doesn't mean you have to go to the
gym and, you know, be muscly or you know,
go full out.
It doesn't mean you have to go to the gym
and be muscly or go full out.
It doesn't mean that.
It just means for you, find what works for
you.
Swimming was great for me.
I used to go swimming a lot.
(32:28):
Some of my clients love yoga.
It could be just going out for a walk, but
looking up, don't have your AirPods in,
just look up, listen to nature, know.
Obviously, if you can get out somewhere
where there's green or water, it can be
even more healing.
But just getting out and doing a brisk walk
around the block can help.
So I think having that is key.
(32:51):
Also, having good friends and a support
network around you is important.
However, I caveat that with it may not be
your bestie, because your bestie may be
emotionally involved, because they're angry
and they really upset with this ex as well,
because they were sucked into that story.
And maybe your family was sucked into the
story and they're angry or they're hurt by
(33:13):
it.
So their advice sometimes isn't quite as
constructive as you would need it to be.
So when you're choosing your what I call
breakup support team, make sure you have
people in there that can actually give you
constructive advice that aren't as
emotionally involved, as well as your
friends and family for those nights or
evenings where you just want to rant.
But if you're looking at how do I get
(33:33):
myself moving forward, then again we have
to be a little bit more considered in our
choices with that, I think then again, we
have to be a little bit more considered in
our choices with that.
Hilary Russo (33:42):
I think that is such a good point to bring
up I'm thinking about that in my own
situation that I found that I healed faster.
It took me a while, but in the second
uncoupling I found that my healing journey
and I did so much work and I'm so grateful
for it I don't even hold resentment or
upset anymore because I'm and it's I'm so
grateful for it.
Like I don't even don't even hold
resentment or upset anymore because I'm
(34:02):
like, wow, I learned from this, maybe who I
am today.
I have people in my life that are still so
angry at that person and you know you feel
that that's that kind of responsibility.
Like gosh, I'm so sorry I laid all that on
you.
I'm doing okay, so maybe you can too right,
Because you want them to but they're
holding on to their upset because they're
(34:24):
protecting you, and I found that to be
something that was really interesting, you
know?
Sara Davison (34:28):
Yeah, they will.
And I love what you said about you're okay
with it, because actually the key here is
do you remember when I said at the
beginning, you have that choice where you
either step up or you just let it be who
you are and it defines you forever.
I think that's the key, because when you go
through any of life's challenges not just a
breakup, divorce, but in my case, obviously
(34:50):
that's my specialist focus, but it can be a
valuable life lesson, not just for you but
also for your children, to learn that
sometimes the wheels come off.
You know, sometimes we don't get that
fairytale ending that we expected, that we
dreamed of, but that's okay because
actually, as long as we can talk about our
emotions, we can express them.
(35:10):
We're not stuffing them down, we're not
ignoring them.
We can face up to them and maybe that's
with help or maybe you've got a great
supportive team around you, but you can
work.
Work through that.
That empowers not only you but also your
kids, because nowadays the teenage suicide
rate it all around the world is
skyrocketing.
Because the coping mechanisms kids have
these days are very different to when I was
(35:31):
at school.
When I was at school, you know, if you were
stressed you might go for a sneaky
cigarette around the back of the bike shed,
and that was pretty much what you would do
cigarette around the back of the bike shed,
and that was pretty much what you would do.
You know, you play truant or you do maybe
not go to school or leave early or whatever.
Now it's this awful sort of smorgasbord of
drugs and alcohol and um, as well as, uh,
(35:52):
self-harming and suicide, and that is quite
scary, and so we are not not training our
kids with coping mechanisms that actually
allow them to process difficult situations.
So, if they can see a parent who has gone
through something like this and see that
they yes, they found it tough, because we
only ignore or hide those emotions, but
(36:13):
they found it tough.
But look, they had coping mechanisms and
you can teach these to your kids,
appropriate ones, whether that's five star
jumps to change how you feel, putting a
smile on your face, having some happy music,
maybe it's exercising, maybe it's asking
more empowering questions rather than
what's wrong with me, why did I?
Why did this happen to me?
(36:35):
It's okay.
Well, what can I do right now to make this
better?
What can I do right now to change how I
feel?
Like those sort of little tips and coping
mechanisms.
If a kid learns them, then your breakup
becomes actually very valuable life
experience for your child, because when
they're 16, 18, older, these are life
(36:55):
skills and coping mechanisms they will take
with them.
They'll know that just because things don't
work out doesn't mean that's it and they've
got to think about the worst scenarios.
They can say look, I know this is okay.
I know I'll get through it.
It's tough, but I saw my mom or my dad do
it and therefore I know I can do it, it's
possible.
So this is where the gift that keeps on
giving comes in, because that pain to power,
(37:16):
that trauma to triumph, you can
generationally pass those gifts on as well.
Hilary Russo (37:23):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, it's like be a lesson for the next
generation, absolutely.
And the one thing I learned you know and
I'm also a product of divorce is that you
don't want to see what happened to you or
to your parents happen to you.
And then you live in that fear of is this
going to happen to me?
Because you're already putting that into
that part of your brain that's going to
(37:44):
hold on to.
This is dangerous, right.
So there's also that feeling of being able
to share this as a gift with your children
and be a mentor in a way of like this is
just part of everyday life.
Things don't work out sometimes, but what
can we learn from it?
Could be very powerful.
Absolutely.
Love that you're sharing that so much good
(38:04):
information here, sarah.
I mean that can really build that
resiliency.
Tell me what your tagline is again.
What is it?
Screw you what?
Screw you watch this.
Yeah, screw you watch this, and it doesn't
mean to be said in a negative way, but like
success is the best revenge.
Sara Davison (38:23):
You're protecting yourself.
So it's like you know when people are
having a go and throwing words around and
being aggressive, you know.
If you're in one of those kind of breakouts
it's like, okay, I could break right If I
gave you permission to break me.
But I choose not to and I'm taking control,
like I can do this in a nice way.
But screw you, watch this.
(38:43):
I'm going to turn this into something so
empowering for me, my friends, my children,
people around me.
Yeah, just watch this.
It's super empowering.
I can't tell you, literally still today, it
drives me forward.
Hilary Russo (38:57):
It's empowering just thinking about that,
because I'm thinking about it back on the
last 10 years of my life, and where I am
today and I know part of that is because of
the journey that I went through.
That did suck at the time, but now I'm like
gosh.
I don't think I'd be where I am today,
doing what I do, if I didn't have that
experience.
Yeah Right, it's hard to see it when you're
in it.
(39:17):
It's hard to see it when you're in it, but
when you're out of it and you're on the
other side, you're like screw you, watch
this.
Sara Davison (39:22):
Yeah, I think sometimes the biggest gifts
in our life, with hindsight, are the times
that gave us the greatest pain.
That is a conscious choice, though.
That is a conscious choice.
That is that.
Am I going to step up or step down with
this?
But if you step up, that's how you can
alchemize that into something that really
(39:42):
is a huge opportunity moving forward, and I
know it's hard when you're in it, but
actually it's just one step at a time.
At that point it's just I've just got to
get through this day and the next day, but
having that motto behind you to encourage
you when you feel down, having that support
team around you.
Prioritizing your self care Because I think
it's important that we understand that self
(40:03):
care is not selfish.
I think a lot of people think if I take
time out of my day, I'm not working, I'm
not focusing on the kids, I'm not doing
what I need to do.
That is what you need to do, because if
you're not prioritizing you, it's like when
you're on the plane and they put your
oxygen mask on first and then help your kid,
it's like why would I do that?
I want to help my kid first, but actually
(40:24):
if you're not there to help your kid, then
you've got nothing left in the tank to help.
So that's why this is so important.
So I think a lot of my clients are like, oh
well, but I've got other things and other
people it's like, no, put yourself, because
if you're not strong to make those big
decisions you've got to make about life
going forward, where you're going to live,
(40:44):
how much money you're going to have looking
after the kid arrangements, all those
things, if you're not strong for that, then
that's going to have an impact forever on
your life.
So let's get you in the best position you
can now and it's good routine anyway to set
up for the rest of your life.
Hilary Russo (41:02):
And I think that leads us to one more thing
I want to touch on, and basically it's
going through my own journey.
So I'm kind of asking questions I wish I
had answers to then.
But I get asked this question still to this
day, because my second relationship was a
very short term marriage, like yours.
It wasn't a long, it wasn't 25 years or
anything like that.
But people said, do you regret it?
And I, honestly, I have to say no, I don't.
(41:25):
I don't regret the day of the wedding
because it was beautiful and brought love
together and I got to see people that are
no longer here, or maybe they were and they
you just got to see a collective amount of
people coming together for the whole
mission of love.
And then do you regret meeting the person
or dating the person?
No, because you are where you are when you
are in that place, where you're at you got
(41:46):
to meet yourself where you're at.
So regret can be very dangerous.
It's really learning the lesson in it and
not taking something that was sweet away
from something that once existed.
Yeah.
Sara Davison (41:59):
I totally agree with that.
In fact, I always say my wedding day was
amazing.
I mean, it was one of the most magical,
beautiful days.
That's the thing.
We have to cherish those moments.
We can't go back and rewrite history and
say, well, that was a terrible day, because
look what happened three, 10, 20 years
later.
No, we have to keep those magic moments and
remember them for special in that time.
(42:20):
They're part of our life's journey and you
would never be who you are without that
experience behind you, however painful.
But the trick here is to turn that into
something that you can look back and learn
the lessons, because life has a funny way
of teaching us the same lesson over and
over again until we go, okay, I've got it,
I'm banking it, I'm not going to date that
(42:40):
kind of person again or I'm not going to do
that thing again because it hurts me.
But with these kinds of things, quite often
we go back to what's familiar because
ironically it feels safe.
But actually that familiar isn't safe if
it's hurting us time and time again.
So it's about recognizing and what I call
hone your radar to spot the signs of maybe
(43:01):
a toxic relationship or the N word we
talked about earlier, the narcissistic Just
hone your radar, because if you spot the
signs and you bank your lessons, that means
that you will deploy your parachute and
exit the building on day one or two without
saying, oh, I can change them or they'll be
different with me.
No, no, no, no.
You've learned the lesson, you've banked it.
(43:23):
Parachute is deployed and you are out.
Hilary Russo (43:26):
That's great.
I love that.
There's a powerful quote I learned when I
got back into the dating scene and being in
a happy relationship I'm in now.
I know a big part of that is because I
don't gravitate to the same kind of person.
I've made the list of who I am and how I
want to show up in the world.
And now, and being the list, that's the
(43:46):
kind of person you attract, right?
You can't ask for.
Oh, I want them to be wonderful and
nurturing and empathetic and compassionate
and loving and give me everything I need,
but not be that yourself.
So it's like make the list be.
The list was like the most powerful lesson
I ever learned Love that everything you're
sharing.
Okay, so we're going to have a little fun,
(44:06):
because there's always humor in the
heartbreak, and I play a game with my
guests called a rapid fire, and basically
what I'm going to do is I'm going to throw
out a word, a number of words, just one
word that you've said at some point during
this conversation, and I want you to come
back with one word that associates with
that.
So we're doing word association.
(44:26):
Okay, going to have a little fun.
You ready?
Sounds great.
Okay, here we go, just quick off the top.
Toxic Power Control.
Sara Davison (44:38):
Release.
Hilary Russo (44:39):
Productivity, performance, compromise, step
up, humiliation, embarrassment.
Sara Davison (44:50):
Game, gameplay, checklist Denial, I'm going
to say contact lens box.
Oh goodness, it stays with us it.
Hilary Russo (45:05):
Even if it's humorous, at some point it
still stays with us, right, good stuff.
Uh, how about uncoupling happiness,
betrayal, painful divorce, liberation and
two words screw.
Betrayal.
Painful Divorce, liberation and two words
screw you Watch this.
(45:30):
I was hoping you'd say that I was like
finish this phrase for me.
This was so great.
I'm so excited that we had a chance to have
this conversation and really learn from
each other.
Really, if you were to leave some final
thoughts with those who are tuning into
HIListically Speaking Sarah, what would it?
Sara Davison (45:45):
be.
It's not what happens to you in life that
defines you.
It's what you do about it that makes you
the person you are.
There's always time, so if you need help,
reach out, get the help, and you've got
this.
I know you've got this.
You can do it.
Hilary Russo (46:01):
Amazing, great advice, thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
If you found this conversation helpful,
consider passing it along to just one
person.
It only takes one person to make a
difference in this world.
And don't forget, you can also download and
subscribe so others can find it too.
Even leave a rating or review wherever
you're tuning in, because HIListically
(46:22):
Speaking is a place to turn those traumas
into triumphs, one day at a time.
And you can also get in touch with the
divorce coach herself, sarah Davison, by
checking the podcast notes of this episode.
You will find her books, as well as her
courses and even a very special offer to
her training school.
(46:43):
Just for tuning in to this episode and
conversation.
And if you need additional support to learn
how to find the humor, the understanding
and the gratitude that exists within you to
heal, let's set up a call and figure out
how you can find ways to hug it out with
yourself again and put the power of emotion
(47:04):
well-being back in your own hands.
A couple of people that I want to thank for
this podcast and making it possible 2Market
Media for the editing, of course, my dear
friend Lipbone Redding for always bringing
the music, and you for trusting me and
joining me week after week and always
remember this because, coming from someone
(47:26):
who has been there herself, that you can
take back your life again.
I promise you that and always know that I
love you, I believe in you and I'm sending
hugs your way.
Be well.
sometimes the biggest gifts in our life,
with hindsight, are the times that gave us
the greatest pain, and that is a conscious
choice.
Though that is a conscious choice, that is
that am I going to step up or step down
with this?
But if you step up, that's how you can
alchemize that into something that really
is a huge opportunity moving forward.
Hilary Russo (00:29):
It's messy, it's emotional, it can even be
traumatic and toxic.
I know, let's face it.
Breakups and divorce can turn that fairy
tale that you have that relationship into a
traumatic reality.
That you have that relationship into a
traumatic reality and suddenly you're
questioning if happily ever after is even a
(00:50):
real thing, because that's not what you
signed up for, is it?
But here's the deal.
It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom.
There's growth in the grief and even a
little humor in the heartbreak.
You just have to know where to look.
And this is coming from someone who's been
down that road, been down that highway and
even a little humor in the heartbreak.
You just have to know where to look.
And this is coming from someone who's been
down that road, been down that highway more
than once.
(01:11):
I have to preface with that and I can tell
you that there is a light at the end of the
tunnel.
I promise you and people who can be that
guide by your side and look, I'm one of
them.
I talk about the hug it out method all the
time on how you can find the healing and
the understanding and the gratitude and the
humor in all of it.
Right, that's part of your healing journey.
(01:32):
But I'm not alone in this journey.
I'm not alone on somebody who can be that
guy by your side, and that is why Sarah
Davison is here.
She is the divorce coach, twice
best-selling author, an expert on breakup
and divorce, and joins us on HIListically
Speaking to help you heal and find yourself
again.
Because Sarah, isn't that?
What it's really all about is finding self
(01:54):
again.
Sara Davison (01:55):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm super excited to be here.
It's all about turning that pain into your
superpower and actually learning that
actually a breakup or a divorce can be a
really valuable life lesson that actually
can turn into something really positive.
You can come out stronger, happier, more
(02:15):
confident.
So lots of positives.
So, as you said, I totally agree, it's not
all doom and gloom.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Hilary Russo (02:23):
And a lot of times we come into this work
because we realize that we've been through
something like you say, that pain to
purpose, like having the story ourselves,
is sometimes what moves us into the work we
do, and you're one of those.
I mean, you've been through divorce
yourself and sometimes that can be even
embarrassing when we think, oh, this is
what I do for a living, and now I'm going
it through myself.
How was that journey for you personally?
Sara Davison (02:45):
Oh, yeah, great question.
I mean, I was what I thought.
Happily married, I worked with my husband.
We had a global business, we had nearly 200
staff, we had an office in London, an
office in Sydney.
We'd been married about three years.
My son, our son, was one at the time when I
realized, literally overnight, that my
(03:07):
husband not only no longer wanted to be
married to me, but he'd actually found
somebody else and was madly in love with
them.
And it doesn't stop there.
Because she was 12 years younger, which
never helps Hilary, by the way, never helps.
Stunningly beautiful Again, doesn't help.
But also she was pregnant and that was
(03:30):
literally like it was a freight train that
hit my life and turned everything upside
down.
Overnight I lost not only my husband, but
who I thought was my best friend, my
soulmate, my business partner and the
father to my son, and I became a single
parent who, instead of having my future
mapped out with this business that I loved
running, suddenly everything was up in the
(03:51):
air and I did a lot of that ugly crying on
the bathroom floor.
I did a lot of phoning my mom at 2am and
trying to figure things out because I
couldn't sleep, and it was a couple of
months of the pain, the heartache, the
humiliation that you touched on in front of
all the staff.
Everyone seemed to know about the affair,
rather than me, and I'd actually gone out
(04:14):
to Sydney, to Australia, to our office out
there, and I don't know if this happened to
you, hilary, I don't know your divorce
circumstances, but when someone finds out
that you now know that your partner cheated
on you, suddenly everyone comes out of the
woodwork with their story.
It's almost like it's their therapy to say,
oh, thank God, you knew.
I didn't know whether to tell you but.
(04:35):
And then they launch into the story.
But that's like another dagger through the
heart again and again and again.
And being in the Australia office, someone
had opened up about something they'd
experienced with my ex at one point and I
had to leave the office and I went for a
walk down Balmoral Beach Now it's beautiful,
it's white sand, it's turquoise sea and I
(04:56):
sat there crying my eyes out and I thought
what is going on in my life?
Like suddenly, from being happy, from being
thinking everything was sorted and I was
just enjoying the journey, but the pain was
all consuming, that physical pain feels
like, even though it's an emotional pain,
it is all consuming, and that's when I had
(05:16):
my pivotal moment, which was okay, I can't
take this pain anymore.
I have a choice I either let this define me
or I step up and I find a way through,
because there wasn't any help at that point.
I have a choice I either let this define me
or I step up and I find a way through,
because there wasn't any help at that point.
I tried to find help.
There was therapy, but that isn't the same
as coaching.
Coaching is a lot more directional, a lot
more results, focused, step by step.
(05:37):
So I decided I'm going to create my own
tools.
I'm going to combine my coaching experience
been a coach for about 15 years at that
point with this divorce and create
something to get me and my son through,
which is what I did.
And in that moment, my motto was born,
which is screw you, watch this.
Hilary Russo (05:54):
And that was it.
I love that Screw you Like.
The biggest revenge is what they say.
The biggest revenge is being able to be
resilient and come over it, right.
Sara Davison (06:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
Hilary Russo (06:09):
Amazing.
That's a hard place to be, especially being
in the field of being a coach, somebody
that you have been coaching other people.
And then you're going through the journey
yourself and to go back to what you're
asking me what my journey was, yes, that
whole idea of being betrayed because
betrayal is like an extra dagger to the
heart and then when people say things like
you know, we always had a feeling about
that person or come to think of it and
you're sitting there you want to be angry
(06:30):
on one side, like why didn't you tell me?
And then the other side you're thinking how
did I not know?
So you start doubting your own ability to
make decisions, and good ones.
Sara Davison (06:40):
And I found out that very quickly realized
that it had actually been very toxic
relationship and again I didn't think that
abuse was something that happened to people
like me.
As victims of abuse, we will minimize it
and normalize it to stay in it.
So behaviors that were totally unacceptable
became sort of everyday occurrences over a
(07:01):
period of time and coming out of that was
also a whole revelation of actually now I'm
really seeing the wood for the trees and
this really wasn't good.
So again, more embarrassment, more
humiliation, more self-doubt, more what the
hell was I doing?
Moments.
So yeah, it was a journey and I think a lot
of people go through that, and what I found
was there was no support, nobody that
(07:22):
really understood.
Friends and family can be really supportive
and reassuring and if you've got a legal
advisor, great, they can pat you on the
back and say we'll get through this.
But if you don't have the help like with
the mental wellbeing because that is
fundamentally what it comes down to the
stress, the pressure, the overwhelm, the
fear there's so many negative emotions,
especially, as you said, with the betrayal
on top.
There's so many negative emotions,
(07:43):
especially, as you said, with the betrayal
on top.
There's so many things.
So actually dealing with.
That was the priority.
Hilary Russo (07:50):
And really finding the right kind of
support.
Like you said, you can have different
support in different areas.
In fact, in this day and age and I've even
seen this I have close friends that are
divorce attorneys, one in particular that
has even gone on to do additional training
in narcissistic abuse, because that's a
whole different area that we are seeing.
(08:10):
It's like a buzzword really, like
everybody's labeling everybody narcissist.
But that's a behavior, right, but it also
can be.
We can have narcissistic tendencies and
that doesn't make you somebody that has
narcissistic personality disorder.
But having a clear understanding of how you
are being abused or gaslit or love bombed,
(08:32):
I mean with all these terms out there, how?
do you know what you're going through
during that time.
Sara Davison (08:39):
Well, it's such.
I mean, you're so right, it's such an
important topic right now and I have a
training school.
I set up a training school to train other
coaches to help me, because my mission is
to get these tools that I created out to as
many people as possible, and on my own I
realized there's so many people that needed
this help because it made such a positive
difference.
So I set up a training school and now we've
trained over 650 coaches in 27 different
(09:02):
countries, so that that's really helping
people and getting and getting the help out
there.
But what we've seen, especially since COVID,
is the rise of domestic abuse, so toxic
relationships, and that includes
narcissistic behavior like the gaslighting,
confusing behavior you were talking about,
covers, coercive control, emotional abuse,
(09:23):
but that never is isolated.
It taps into financial control, it taps
into sexual control.
It's very isolating as well.
So the challenge is I don't really like the
narcissist word On my training.
We call it the M word.
I don't train my coaches to use it because
it focuses the victim on their ex and the
(09:46):
only way to take your power back, which is
because it is a controlling abuse.
They are literally controlling everything
you're doing and, on some level, even your
thoughts, even if you're not living with
them anymore, you're renting them space
24-7 in your brain.
So we've got to find ways to emotionally
disassociate from them and so labeling them
(10:06):
and looking at what they're doing and
getting caught up in the what I call.
They throw grenades at you and you have to
then chase down the rabbit holes to try and
answer.
Why are they saying that?
That's not true, that's upsetting, that's
hurtful.
Why aren't they turning up on time?
Why aren't they sharing that financial
information?
It's so confusing.
If you go down those routes and chase the
(10:28):
grenades they're throwing at you, all
that's going to happen is they're going to
go off in your face.
You're going to end up more confused, more
emotionally exhausted.
So the trick is to take a step back and not
focus on the narcissistic traits.
It's more to focus on you, to take your
power back and ask better questions like
how can I control this situation?
(10:49):
What can I do right now to take my power
back?
So, again, yeah this is all very hot topic
at the moment, but I think we've got to not
get sucked into the focusing on them,
because that's what they want and that
feeds it.
Hilary Russo (11:01):
Yes, I love that you mentioned that,
because you know, there was a phrase I
remember going in that was shared with me
when I was going through my second divorce,
and that was sometimes you have to play the
fool that thinks that he's fooling you, or
play the fool that thinks he's fooling you,
meaning like just even responding and
reacting to what they're doing, it's
(11:22):
fueling them, right.
And then it's the same thing that almost
and I feel this way about when we talk
about the names of perpetrators or the
criminals, when we mention their name,
we're giving them life.
So the whole idea is I think it goes back
to your whole screw you thing it's focusing
on me, it's about me, it's about building
(11:43):
me, my resiliency, my power.
So the more fuel you're giving to somebody
else, the more power that's being taken
away from you.
That's brilliant, you're spot on.
Sara Davison (11:53):
And the challenge with that is it's easy
for somebody to say don't focus on them,
focus on you.
So you need to give them the how, which is
what I created, which is what I call my
gameplay checklist, if you like.
So it's basically understanding that,
whether we like it or not, we are in a game.
Now a lot of people go oh sorry, I don't
like the fact that you're saying I'm in a
game, I'm not doing anything.
(12:14):
I know it's them, but whether we like it or
not, we are in their game and we're going
to be moved around like pawns on a
chessboard unless we learn the rules of the
game.
So I spell out the rules of the game so
that we can master the rules of the game
and then be two steps ahead.
Now, if you're two steps ahead, you can do
very cleverly.
(12:34):
What you've just been saying is like you go,
I see what you're doing and now I choose
not to chase down those rabbit holes.
I'm going to.
I can see tactically, you're doing the
lying, I'm checking it off my checklist.
The lying, the gaslighting, the confusing,
belittling, insulting, yeah, all those
things, yeah, okay, so now you're classic
because they all play from the same
(12:55):
textbook.
It might feel confusing, but when you
actually break it down, it's actually
textbook behavior.
Now, your pet psycho you will know better
than anyone.
You'll know the tendencies.
They tend to do more of the gaslighting or
more of the isolating or the threatening or
whatever.
But you'll know them and you'll see, and
then you'll see right.
Okay, these are the tactics you're
deploying in this game.
(13:16):
Now what do I want to do?
I know where you're wanting me to go.
You want me to be upset or hysterical, or
file another legal letter.
It costs me more money, or whatever it is.
I'm going to take a step back now because
I'm emotionally disassociating from all
that drama and I'm able to make a better
informed decision, and so that's kind of
where we give people the how, which
(13:36):
actually enables them to feel more
empowered in what is a very disempowering
situation for a lot of people.
Hilary Russo (13:42):
Oh yeah, I.
I remember feeling like that the minute I
was not responding and reacting, and it the
other person becomes unhinged because it's
like you.
There's power in the silence, there's power
and not sharing, because when you're in it
especially if you're in a relationship
where there are those tendencies that you
don't mention, right, you realize that when
(14:02):
you're in it you don't know what the heck
is going on with you.
You think it's you.
You're the one that's losing your mind, and
that's such a part of the psychology of
that illness.
And that disorder, but also when you take
that power back, you are more empowered and
you start building that resiliency.
I do want to go back to what you just
(14:23):
mentioned.
You have a school, a training school.
You say you've certified over 600 people to
get certified in divorce and breakup
training, and we're going to actually drop
something in the notes of this podcast
about your school so that people can take
advantage of an offer if they're looking to
up their level of certification.
(14:43):
If you are actually already a coach or a
therapist or somebody who is supporting
people even divorce lawyers, I'm sure could
benefit from this so that you become more
educated on how to go forward and support
those that you are serving.
Sara Davison (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you don't
actually have to have any coach
qualification to do it.
A lot of my coaches have come from just
going through a really tough breakup,
really getting the pain, having that
empathy, and then I can do the rest.
I've been coaching for gosh 30 years now,
so I've got a lot of experience.
So I fast track you through the coaching
skills and give you the recipe of the tools
(15:19):
and how to put them together to create
those fast, positive transformations with
clients and then, if you want to add, in
the specialist area of domestic abuse and
the toxic relationships and the N-word
stuff.
It's such a rewarding career, I think, a
time when it's much needed as well.
Hilary Russo (15:35):
Yeah, especially when you realize that your
pain has turned into purpose to help other
people.
I think of that myself, and even if people
are taking a course just to self-educate,
it doesn't mean they have to go out there
and use it as a profession.
I think of so many people who are getting
trained, even in the work I do in Havening
or going through my certification.
They might not use it in the workplace,
(15:56):
they might just want to have more tools to
learn how to self-regulate and self-soothe
for themselves right.
So if you think about it that way, just
getting certification just makes you more
aware and educated on ways to deal with
your own life.
Or maybe you have a friend or a family
member going through it and they know that
they can trust and come to you because you
have the skills that Sarah is sharing with
(16:16):
you in her curriculum to make you a more
well-rounded person and knowledgeable in
this area, which could be very, very
traumatic and hard to deal with on an
everyday.
You know, yeah, I know.
Sara Davison (16:28):
I just think it's.
There are also life skills.
You know how to, because a lot of my
training is based on understanding that we
control the remote to our brain.
So and a lot of people don't know that A
lot of people my clients, for example will
come and say well, I'm crying all the time,
my life's ruined because my ex has cheated
on me.
I've got a client at the moment.
(16:48):
He's run off with her best friend from the
school gates.
One of the moms and their kids are best
mates as well.
It's a really tough situation and she's
like my life was over.
I'm never going to find love again.
Now.
I'm not taking away from how painful this
situation is.
However, what we're working on is helping
her to dial down those negative emotions
and put in place specific tools and
(17:10):
techniques, as well as a lot of practical
tips to help her take her power back, and
one of them is self-care.
One of them is literally looking after
yourself, because she turned to various
coping mechanisms that were actually ending
up making her feel worse, and this is
really common, like drinking more.
For example, she likes red wine.
She would usually have a glass in the
evening with her dinner.
(17:30):
Now it's three or four glasses the next day
is having a knock-on impact, and she hadn't
really been consciously aware because it
was her crutch.
But again we can't stop doing something
without replacing it with something else,
because otherwise you're sat there going
well, I want to drink but I can't drink and
that just drives you mad.
So again it's coming up with other
solutions that she can go to that give her
that soothing, that help her deal
(17:51):
bereavement.
It could also you could use those life
skills for any scenario challenging
behavior in the workplace.
And actually that's interesting too,
because now there's been a huge increase
and I've seen this in the States, I've seen
(18:16):
it all over the world in the amount of
businesses that are now looking for breakup,
divorce and domestic abuse coaching,
support for employees.
Because finally the research is showing and
it's finally out there now someone's done
it, that Harvard Business Journal did it to
show the massive reduction in productivity
if you are going through a divorce 40%
(18:38):
reduction in ability to focus and perform
in the workplace 40 percent.
And not just for the year of the divorce,
the year before, the year during and the
year after as you're trying to put your
life back together.
Maybe you're out on the dating scene or
maybe you've got different kid arrangements
or your house is a bit further away from
work.
There's so many things to work out.
(19:00):
So, yeah, it's definitely something that
those skills can be used in lots and lots
of different areas.
Hilary Russo (19:06):
Wow, that is an astronomical percentage 40%.
So your productivity declines by 40%, or
we're seeing that when you are going
through a life change like a divorce or a
major breakup, yeah, okay, so this isn't
like and this isn't just affecting your
personal life.
This actually does have an ability to
(19:28):
affect your professional life, which I see
that with clients as well.
But having someone that's specifically
designed and trained in divorce and breakup
coaching could support you on a different
level.
Obviously, we need coaches in different
areas, we need practitioners, we need
support for the different kinds of things
we're going through in life.
So if this is something that resonates with
you or you know somebody who is going
(19:49):
through this journey, pass this podcast
episode along.
Let them know that this conversation
between myself and with Sarah exists, and
it could provide you that something extra
that you might not have thought about
before.
So definitely pass along this HIListically
speaking episode.
Sara Davison (20:06):
Do you think, Hilary, it's kind of strange.
Right Like when you were going through your
divorce, I was looking for help and there
was lots of help.
If I wanted to lose weight, there are a
thousand groups I could join.
If I wanted to stop smoking which I didn't
smoke there are a million groups I could
choose.
But heartbreak, which is something that
every single person on the planet goes
through at least once Some of us a few more
(20:26):
times than that, right, so yeah, so why was
there no help?
And this was what I was fascinated by this.
So now I've created these online support
groups.
We have eight hours of group coaching every
week.
They're less than a dollar an hour to
attend.
They're free for the first week.
It's just super accessible so that anyone
(20:46):
can jump on and get help.
I just find it crazy that it didn't exist
before I didn't have it.
Hilary Russo (20:53):
You go to a traditional therapist, a
marriage and family therapist, and look,
they have their place too.
But I feel like I could have used more
support, especially as a young wife, when I
was my first marriage.
And even though that turned out and I have
a relationship with that person that is
positive, it was still a death, a grief, a
(21:15):
loss that I didn't know how to process as a
young divorcee Then the second time around
with more, more tools, more intuition, more
wisdom.
it still hurts and there's different things
we go through and we did different kind of
community.
It really depends on whether you have
children, whether you don't like having
these kind of support networks.
(21:37):
So important right.
Because, it's not just cookie cutter, you
know, I just find it crazy that there
wasn't anything.
Sara Davison (21:44):
I mean, I just think when we're all going
through that and we're all struggling,
whether it's your first heartbreak or
you've been married 40, 50 years, you know
there's there's a level of emotional pain
there and at the moment, you know, trying
to get therapy, help or whatever, if you,
if you get it through, you know sometimes
there's free help available.
There's months and months of wait lists
(22:04):
over here in the UK and it just is, you
know, people can't get the help they need,
which I just think is crazy.
So, yeah, no, it's one of the things that
we get feedback every single day Like thank
you so much, your groups have saved my life.
Even I wouldn't be here because no one
understood it.
I mean it's been.
Hilary Russo (22:23):
The best thing that I've done actually is
that the groups online Then we're
definitely going to share that in the notes
of the podcast as well.
So if you want to connect with Sarah and
the groups that she offers and that sounds
like a very reasonable look, your number
one ROI is Y-O-U.
Anyway, I always say that, and if you can
put aside a dollar a day or a couple of
bucks to get a coffee, your emotional
wellbeing matters too, and then you know
you're in community and with support, so
(22:44):
we'll share that as well.
I do want to talk about your books too.
You have two books out, Uncoupling and the
Split.
Can you share a little bit about both and
how they're different?
Sara Davison (22:55):
Yeah.
So uncoupling is how to survive and thrive
from any kind of breakup or divorce, and
it's packed full of my tools, my techniques,
and it describes a lot of my stories how I
found out that my husband was cheating on
me which was an interesting revelation and
(23:20):
decided the best way for me to get over jet
lag at the time was just to go to the gym
and have a bit of a run and see if I could
shake it off.
And I opened my bedside table and inside
was a contact lens box.
I don't wear contact lenses.
And then I opened it up going oh that's
weird.
And inside was a big false eyelash and I
don't wear false eyelashes either, so am I.
You know, when you sleep on the side of the
(23:40):
bed, that's down the side, so you're gonna
have to squeeze down and like no one's just
gonna be walking past, like if it was a
cleaner and it just wouldn't have been
there.
But interestingly, I went into the first
stage of the loss cycle, the grief cycle,
which is denial.
So I shut it up, put it back in there, went
to the gym, and it was weeks later before I
actually told anybody said anything about
(24:02):
it, cause I knew that once you start
talking about it, it makes it so much more
real and kind of in my heart parts, I guess
I knew.
Hilary Russo (24:08):
So that was more of what a coupling was
about.
Sara Davison (24:10):
More about my story and more about, you
know, my journey through that, which I
think resonates a lot with people.
Then the split is 30 days from breakup to
breakthrough and what it does is it's
broken down into a chapter per day for 30
days.
So if you are going through that
overwhelming just wanna read a chapter,
have a tool or a technique that you can
(24:32):
take on board for that day and then take
you through to the next day, what we do is
it's a 30-day plan, so having your own
coach and you tick it off as you go through
and it just fast tracks you through that
recovery process.
Hilary Russo (24:44):
That's great.
It's like having a little pocket guide just
to help you along like a companion.
Yeah, Amazing.
Just want to remind folks.
We're going to put everything you need in
the podcast notes of this episode with
Sarah Really good information from your
training school to both of the books
uncoupling and the split.
And just this was something I would love to
(25:06):
ask you is the term uncoupling is something
is not new.
It's been around for a while.
Are we finding that we're using that more
than the term breakup than divorce, Like
why?
Why are we finding more of a pull towards
that term?
Sara Davison (25:23):
Well, I think conscious uncoupling sort of
hit the headlines when Gwyneth Paltrow used
it to describe her uncoupling from her
husband and that was an interesting time
because they were managing to do it very
amicably.
And I think conscious uncoupling is when
you go separate ways.
Obviously there will be some conflict,
(25:43):
right, but it's a healthy relationship.
You might argue a little bit over who gets
the piano or, you know, when you see the
kids.
That's normal, there's nothing wrong with
that.
But you can have a conversation and that's
where you're aiming for compromise, even
though you might be a bit fed up with the
other person or you may resent them a
little bit, you know, or it's fizzled, you
know, over a period of time.
(26:04):
So those kind of relationships you can
consciously uncouple, which is great, and I
think that if you can, obviously that's the
best way to do it with communication, and
both of you are aiming for some sort of
compromise.
So you work out that.
You know you want a fair compromise at the
end of the day.
But that's not really what I see that much
of, to be honest.
What I see is what I've coined, aggressive
(26:25):
severing, because aggressive severing is
very different to consciously uncoupling.
Aggressively severing is when you are
divorcing somebody who is hell bent on
causing maximum pain and suffering and
basically total annihilation, which is what
comes with a toxic ex or an abusive ex, and
(26:46):
so I tend to that's my specialist area,
having been through it so that's where we
tend to see a lot of people really needing
help, because obviously it's a bit more of
a emotional rollercoaster at times and it
goes on for a lot longer and you do end up
feeling like the only sane person in the
lunatic asylum if you're dragged through
(27:06):
the toxic court system that is pretty much
global.
The family court system is not fit for
purpose in my opinion.
It's very corrupt and there's a lot of
inbuilt conflicts of interest, which
definitely never serves victims of abuse.
So again, we are specialists at supporting
people through that.
But I think the term uncoupling sort of got
(27:26):
the headlines then and I think that's great
because it puts a massive focus on people's
ability to focus on.
You can do it amicably.
And look, you know Gwyneth did it.
She loves my work.
She invited me personally to write for Goop.
Actually, so write for Goop, which was
amazing, so a highlight of over the last
few years, um.
So I mean it's great that you know that she
(27:47):
does shine a light on these things and that
there is, you know, is a way to do it
amicably.
But obviously, if if you want to do it
amicably, hilary, and your partner doesn't,
your ex doesn't, it's very hard to do it
amicably.
That's the challenge, because they will
drag you through the court system
potentially, or cause many, many more
problems than it needs to have.
So it's not just about you, but at least
(28:09):
you know the support's there if you need it.
Hilary Russo (28:11):
Right and it's always best if you can take
that approach.
And I remember when I was going through my
divorce, the divorce attorney who was
advising me told me that you want to think
of it logistically and not personally.
It's very hard Think of it as a business
contract at this point and it's hard to do
that because it is personal, it feels
(28:33):
personal, but at some point you have to
pull yourself out of it and be like if I
want this to work, first of all, don't make
your children the pawn in the chess game.
Now I don't have children so I didn't have
to worry about that, but so many people do.
And also that whole idea of like.
There's a lot of conflict with parental
alienation, one pitting against the other
(28:54):
with their children.
I see that a lot as a practitioner.
There's always one parent that's not doing
the right thing by their children, let
alone the sanctity of the marriage that
might be dissolving, but at one time you
two came together for a reason.
So what would be your advice to folks that
might be going through this process?
Or entertaining it Doesn't mean you have to
(29:14):
be going through a divorce, just a breakup
or the thought of separating.
What would be your advice to folks that you
can do this with integrity.
Sara Davison (29:25):
Yeah, you absolutely can, and you can still
have integrity even if your partner is
playing games and being toxic.
You can.
If you have kids, the most important thing
is to put their best interests first.
Like you said, you don't want to use them
as a pawn.
Um, and again, there's so many things that
happen.
If you are a victim, survivor, I like to
(29:47):
call a course um of abuse.
The challenge when you go through the
family court system is what you term their
parental alienation.
The challenge with that is that parental
alien if you are turning your children
against your ex as a form of revenge that
is an abusive tactic and it is absolutely
unacceptable.
And we see that a lot, as you were talking
(30:09):
about.
But actually what people don't see it
happens more often, but it's not as talked
about is when you are falsely accused of
alienating your child against the abuser by
the abuser because that maybe the children
are scared to spend time or they're
uncomfortable to spend time there.
So it's very easy then it's weaponized a
lot by law firms to then accuse the victim
(30:32):
of alienating the children, which is a form
of abuse as well.
So it goes both ways and it is really
horrific.
And again, I spend, like I'm sure you do a
lot of my time dealing with victims of that
kind of tactic which is perpetrated through
the family courts.
So my advice is if you can avoid going into
the family courts then I would say that's a
(30:55):
good thing.
You can't always if your, if your ex is
wanting to drag you there.
But just bear in mind it's not just the
financial cost, is also the emotional cost
of being dragged through that, because the
courts are not fun, it's intimidating, it's
scary and in a lot of cases you know you
could swap the words court for casino, in
(31:15):
my opinion, because you just don't know
what's going to happen on the day, what
kind of judge you're going to get, what the
situation is, what your ex is going to say
Again, very difficult to you cannot control
that.
So being able to work out some sort of
mediation is a good way, but you can't do
mediation with an abuser.
But there are different types of mediation
now where you're not in the same room and
(31:35):
hybrid mediation enables you to have a
legal advisor in with you if you want that
as well.
So there's different ways now that have
evolved.
But putting your kids first, doing the
right thing, but heads up doing the right
thing is never the easy thing.
It's really hard.
So, again, if you can get the support from
somebody that can help you through that,
(31:55):
then I think that is what keeps you sane,
and your self-care is going to be
absolutely important during those times too.
Hilary Russo (32:02):
What did you find to be your best way to
self care when you were going through the
process?
Sara Davison (32:08):
Physical exercise was important to me
because actually, when you change your
physiology, you automatically change how
you feel.
But it doesn't mean you have to go to the
gym and, you know, be muscly or you know,
go full out.
It doesn't mean you have to go to the gym
and be muscly or go full out.
It doesn't mean that.
It just means for you, find what works for
you.
Swimming was great for me.
I used to go swimming a lot.
(32:28):
Some of my clients love yoga.
It could be just going out for a walk, but
looking up, don't have your AirPods in,
just look up, listen to nature, know.
Obviously, if you can get out somewhere
where there's green or water, it can be
even more healing.
But just getting out and doing a brisk walk
around the block can help.
So I think having that is key.
(32:51):
Also, having good friends and a support
network around you is important.
However, I caveat that with it may not be
your bestie, because your bestie may be
emotionally involved, because they're angry
and they really upset with this ex as well,
because they were sucked into that story.
And maybe your family was sucked into the
story and they're angry or they're hurt by
(33:13):
it.
So their advice sometimes isn't quite as
constructive as you would need it to be.
So when you're choosing your what I call
breakup support team, make sure you have
people in there that can actually give you
constructive advice that aren't as
emotionally involved, as well as your
friends and family for those nights or
evenings where you just want to rant.
But if you're looking at how do I get
(33:33):
myself moving forward, then again we have
to be a little bit more considered in our
choices with that, I think then again, we
have to be a little bit more considered in
our choices with that.
Hilary Russo (33:42):
I think that is such a good point to bring
up I'm thinking about that in my own
situation that I found that I healed faster.
It took me a while, but in the second
uncoupling I found that my healing journey
and I did so much work and I'm so grateful
for it I don't even hold resentment or
upset anymore because I'm and it's I'm so
grateful for it.
Like I don't even don't even hold
resentment or upset anymore because I'm
(34:02):
like, wow, I learned from this, maybe who I
am today.
I have people in my life that are still so
angry at that person and you know you feel
that that's that kind of responsibility.
Like gosh, I'm so sorry I laid all that on
you.
I'm doing okay, so maybe you can too right,
Because you want them to but they're
holding on to their upset because they're
(34:24):
protecting you, and I found that to be
something that was really interesting, you
know?
Sara Davison (34:28):
Yeah, they will.
And I love what you said about you're okay
with it, because actually the key here is
do you remember when I said at the
beginning, you have that choice where you
either step up or you just let it be who
you are and it defines you forever.
I think that's the key, because when you go
through any of life's challenges not just a
breakup, divorce, but in my case, obviously
(34:50):
that's my specialist focus, but it can be a
valuable life lesson, not just for you but
also for your children, to learn that
sometimes the wheels come off.
You know, sometimes we don't get that
fairytale ending that we expected, that we
dreamed of, but that's okay because
actually, as long as we can talk about our
emotions, we can express them.
(35:10):
We're not stuffing them down, we're not
ignoring them.
We can face up to them and maybe that's
with help or maybe you've got a great
supportive team around you, but you can
work.
Work through that.
That empowers not only you but also your
kids, because nowadays the teenage suicide
rate it all around the world is
skyrocketing.
Because the coping mechanisms kids have
these days are very different to when I was
(35:31):
at school.
When I was at school, you know, if you were
stressed you might go for a sneaky
cigarette around the back of the bike shed,
and that was pretty much what you would do
cigarette around the back of the bike shed,
and that was pretty much what you would do.
You know, you play truant or you do maybe
not go to school or leave early or whatever.
Now it's this awful sort of smorgasbord of
drugs and alcohol and um, as well as, uh,
(35:52):
self-harming and suicide, and that is quite
scary, and so we are not not training our
kids with coping mechanisms that actually
allow them to process difficult situations.
So, if they can see a parent who has gone
through something like this and see that
they yes, they found it tough, because we
only ignore or hide those emotions, but
(36:13):
they found it tough.
But look, they had coping mechanisms and
you can teach these to your kids,
appropriate ones, whether that's five star
jumps to change how you feel, putting a
smile on your face, having some happy music,
maybe it's exercising, maybe it's asking
more empowering questions rather than
what's wrong with me, why did I?
Why did this happen to me?
(36:35):
It's okay.
Well, what can I do right now to make this
better?
What can I do right now to change how I
feel?
Like those sort of little tips and coping
mechanisms.
If a kid learns them, then your breakup
becomes actually very valuable life
experience for your child, because when
they're 16, 18, older, these are life
(36:55):
skills and coping mechanisms they will take
with them.
They'll know that just because things don't
work out doesn't mean that's it and they've
got to think about the worst scenarios.
They can say look, I know this is okay.
I know I'll get through it.
It's tough, but I saw my mom or my dad do
it and therefore I know I can do it, it's
possible.
So this is where the gift that keeps on
giving comes in, because that pain to power,
(37:16):
that trauma to triumph, you can
generationally pass those gifts on as well.
Hilary Russo (37:23):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, it's like be a lesson for the next
generation, absolutely.
And the one thing I learned you know and
I'm also a product of divorce is that you
don't want to see what happened to you or
to your parents happen to you.
And then you live in that fear of is this
going to happen to me?
Because you're already putting that into
that part of your brain that's going to
(37:44):
hold on to.
This is dangerous, right.
So there's also that feeling of being able
to share this as a gift with your children
and be a mentor in a way of like this is
just part of everyday life.
Things don't work out sometimes, but what
can we learn from it?
Could be very powerful.
Absolutely.
Love that you're sharing that so much good
(38:04):
information here, sarah.
I mean that can really build that
resiliency.
Tell me what your tagline is again.
What is it?
Screw you what?
Screw you watch this.
Yeah, screw you watch this, and it doesn't
mean to be said in a negative way, but like
success is the best revenge.
Sara Davison (38:23):
You're protecting yourself.
So it's like you know when people are
having a go and throwing words around and
being aggressive, you know.
If you're in one of those kind of breakouts
it's like, okay, I could break right If I
gave you permission to break me.
But I choose not to and I'm taking control,
like I can do this in a nice way.
But screw you, watch this.
(38:43):
I'm going to turn this into something so
empowering for me, my friends, my children,
people around me.
Yeah, just watch this.
It's super empowering.
I can't tell you, literally still today, it
drives me forward.
Hilary Russo (38:57):
It's empowering just thinking about that,
because I'm thinking about it back on the
last 10 years of my life, and where I am
today and I know part of that is because of
the journey that I went through.
That did suck at the time, but now I'm like
gosh.
I don't think I'd be where I am today,
doing what I do, if I didn't have that
experience.
Yeah Right, it's hard to see it when you're
in it.
(39:17):
It's hard to see it when you're in it, but
when you're out of it and you're on the
other side, you're like screw you, watch
this.
Sara Davison (39:22):
Yeah, I think sometimes the biggest gifts
in our life, with hindsight, are the times
that gave us the greatest pain.
That is a conscious choice, though.
That is a conscious choice.
That is that.
Am I going to step up or step down with
this?
But if you step up, that's how you can
alchemize that into something that really
(39:42):
is a huge opportunity moving forward, and I
know it's hard when you're in it, but
actually it's just one step at a time.
At that point it's just I've just got to
get through this day and the next day, but
having that motto behind you to encourage
you when you feel down, having that support
team around you.
Prioritizing your self care Because I think
it's important that we understand that self
(40:03):
care is not selfish.
I think a lot of people think if I take
time out of my day, I'm not working, I'm
not focusing on the kids, I'm not doing
what I need to do.
That is what you need to do, because if
you're not prioritizing you, it's like when
you're on the plane and they put your
oxygen mask on first and then help your kid,
it's like why would I do that?
I want to help my kid first, but actually
(40:24):
if you're not there to help your kid, then
you've got nothing left in the tank to help.
So that's why this is so important.
So I think a lot of my clients are like, oh
well, but I've got other things and other
people it's like, no, put yourself, because
if you're not strong to make those big
decisions you've got to make about life
going forward, where you're going to live,
(40:44):
how much money you're going to have looking
after the kid arrangements, all those
things, if you're not strong for that, then
that's going to have an impact forever on
your life.
So let's get you in the best position you
can now and it's good routine anyway to set
up for the rest of your life.
Hilary Russo (41:02):
And I think that leads us to one more thing
I want to touch on, and basically it's
going through my own journey.
So I'm kind of asking questions I wish I
had answers to then.
But I get asked this question still to this
day, because my second relationship was a
very short term marriage, like yours.
It wasn't a long, it wasn't 25 years or
anything like that.
But people said, do you regret it?
And I, honestly, I have to say no, I don't.
(41:25):
I don't regret the day of the wedding
because it was beautiful and brought love
together and I got to see people that are
no longer here, or maybe they were and they
you just got to see a collective amount of
people coming together for the whole
mission of love.
And then do you regret meeting the person
or dating the person?
No, because you are where you are when you
are in that place, where you're at you got
(41:46):
to meet yourself where you're at.
So regret can be very dangerous.
It's really learning the lesson in it and
not taking something that was sweet away
from something that once existed.
Yeah.
Sara Davison (41:59):
I totally agree with that.
In fact, I always say my wedding day was
amazing.
I mean, it was one of the most magical,
beautiful days.
That's the thing.
We have to cherish those moments.
We can't go back and rewrite history and
say, well, that was a terrible day, because
look what happened three, 10, 20 years
later.
No, we have to keep those magic moments and
remember them for special in that time.
(42:20):
They're part of our life's journey and you
would never be who you are without that
experience behind you, however painful.
But the trick here is to turn that into
something that you can look back and learn
the lessons, because life has a funny way
of teaching us the same lesson over and
over again until we go, okay, I've got it,
I'm banking it, I'm not going to date that
(42:40):
kind of person again or I'm not going to do
that thing again because it hurts me.
But with these kinds of things, quite often
we go back to what's familiar because
ironically it feels safe.
But actually that familiar isn't safe if
it's hurting us time and time again.
So it's about recognizing and what I call
hone your radar to spot the signs of maybe
(43:01):
a toxic relationship or the N word we
talked about earlier, the narcissistic Just
hone your radar, because if you spot the
signs and you bank your lessons, that means
that you will deploy your parachute and
exit the building on day one or two without
saying, oh, I can change them or they'll be
different with me.
No, no, no, no.
You've learned the lesson, you've banked it.
(43:23):
Parachute is deployed and you are out.
Hilary Russo (43:26):
That's great.
I love that.
There's a powerful quote I learned when I
got back into the dating scene and being in
a happy relationship I'm in now.
I know a big part of that is because I
don't gravitate to the same kind of person.
I've made the list of who I am and how I
want to show up in the world.
And now, and being the list, that's the
(43:46):
kind of person you attract, right?
You can't ask for.
Oh, I want them to be wonderful and
nurturing and empathetic and compassionate
and loving and give me everything I need,
but not be that yourself.
So it's like make the list be.
The list was like the most powerful lesson
I ever learned Love that everything you're
sharing.
Okay, so we're going to have a little fun,
(44:06):
because there's always humor in the
heartbreak, and I play a game with my
guests called a rapid fire, and basically
what I'm going to do is I'm going to throw
out a word, a number of words, just one
word that you've said at some point during
this conversation, and I want you to come
back with one word that associates with
that.
So we're doing word association.
(44:26):
Okay, going to have a little fun.
You ready?
Sounds great.
Okay, here we go, just quick off the top.
Toxic Power Control.
Sara Davison (44:38):
Release.
Hilary Russo (44:39):
Productivity, performance, compromise, step
up, humiliation, embarrassment.
Sara Davison (44:50):
Game, gameplay, checklist Denial, I'm going
to say contact lens box.
Oh goodness, it stays with us it.
Hilary Russo (45:05):
Even if it's humorous, at some point it
still stays with us, right, good stuff.
Uh, how about uncoupling happiness,
betrayal, painful divorce, liberation and
two words screw.
Betrayal.
Painful Divorce, liberation and two words
screw you Watch this.
(45:30):
I was hoping you'd say that I was like
finish this phrase for me.
This was so great.
I'm so excited that we had a chance to have
this conversation and really learn from
each other.
Really, if you were to leave some final
thoughts with those who are tuning into
HIListically Speaking Sarah, what would it?
Sara Davison (45:45):
be.
It's not what happens to you in life that
defines you.
It's what you do about it that makes you
the person you are.
There's always time, so if you need help,
reach out, get the help, and you've got
this.
I know you've got this.
You can do it.
Hilary Russo (46:01):
Amazing, great advice, thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
If you found this conversation helpful,
consider passing it along to just one
person.
It only takes one person to make a
difference in this world.
And don't forget, you can also download and
subscribe so others can find it too.
Even leave a rating or review wherever
you're tuning in, because HIListically
(46:22):
Speaking is a place to turn those traumas
into triumphs, one day at a time.
And you can also get in touch with the
divorce coach herself, sarah Davison, by
checking the podcast notes of this episode.
You will find her books, as well as her
courses and even a very special offer to
her training school.
(46:43):
Just for tuning in to this episode and
conversation.
And if you need additional support to learn
how to find the humor, the understanding
and the gratitude that exists within you to
heal, let's set up a call and figure out
how you can find ways to hug it out with
yourself again and put the power of emotion
(47:04):
well-being back in your own hands.
A couple of people that I want to thank for
this podcast and making it possible 2Market
Media for the editing, of course, my dear
friend Lipbone Redding for always bringing
the music, and you for trusting me and
joining me week after week and always
remember this because, coming from someone
(47:26):
who has been there herself, that you can
take back your life again.
I promise you that and always know that I
love you, I believe in you and I'm sending
hugs your way.
Be well.
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