October 5, 2023 • 46 mins
Have you ever wondered why you've never heard back after that promising job interview? Or maybe you're a recruiter wondering how to navigate the tricky terrain of giving feedback post-interview.
This episode of the Hire Calling Podcast will illuminate these queries and much more. Staffing expert Pete Newsome and HR guru Ricky Baez discuss the challenges recruiters face when dealing with hiring managers, emphasizing the importance of keeping candidates informed throughout the recruitment process.
Have you fallen into the trap of mass-applying for jobs instead of targeting the ones you're best qualified for? This episode breaks down these phenomena and reveals why they work against you and how to remedy them.
As Pete and Ricky wrap up their conversation, they share insights on providing feedback to successful and unsuccessful candidates and the urgency recruiters should have when offering job opportunities.
Tune in and transform your recruitment experience!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:02):
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast,
your source for all thingshiring, staffing and recruiting.
I'm Pete Newsome, joined todayonce again by Ricky Baez.
Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez (00:11):
I am doing great.
Pete, How's this week treatingyou?
Pete Newsome (00:14):
So far, so good, but it's Thursday.
Ricky Baez (00:17):
Anything could happen, not over yet, not over
yet.
I'm with you on that.
Pete Newsome (00:21):
Anything could still happen.
Ricky, you're back in townafter a trip to Maryland.
Welcome, welcome home toOrlando.
Ricky Baez (00:27):
Thank you.
Pete Newsome (00:28):
We're talking today about something that is
important to a lot of peopleright now, because there's a lot
of job seekers and we see themon LinkedIn and they get very
frustrated at times about lackof feedback, and so we thought
it would be a good opportunityto talk about best practices for
giving feedback after aninterview.
(00:49):
Sometimes it's good.
We all love doing that.
A lot of times it isn't Not somuch fun, right.
No one enjoys that, but it's anecessary and important part of
the process.
Ricky Baez (01:00):
That's right, I agree, and it's not just giving
back that feedback to thecandidate, but kind of letting
the candidate know what toexpect in the entire process,
from beginning to end.
Because in your opinion, pete,what is the biggest?
I don't want to see a concerncomplaint of recruiters.
Pete Newsome (01:21):
Well, recruiters complain about.
Recruiters complain about lotsof things, but it depends on the
recruiter.
A lot of times recruiters waiton the hiring managers to make
decisions.
Recruiters complain about that.
So length of process is what Ithink probably frustrates the
recruiters the most.
Just from a very high levelstandpoint, both on the
(01:46):
candidate side and internalprocess is, whatever they may be
, hiring managers not makingdecisions all of those things
commonly frustrate recruiters.
Is that where you're going, orin a different direction?
Ricky Baez (01:57):
Well, I was going to one specific thing, and it's
ghosting, being ghosted.
Whenever a recruiter puts anentity, an organization puts
together an interview processand they say, hey, be here at
this time, especially in Zoom,and sometimes candidates just
don't show up and that's thebiggest concern that I keep
(02:18):
hearing and the biggest way, thebest way to combat that is
inform the candidate, keep thecandidate feedback, keep the
candidate informed of the entireprocess.
Pete Newsome (02:28):
Let's talk about ghosting just for a second.
That phrase gets used a lotlately and it seems to have
morphed into something differentthan I would define it by, and
up until very recently, I wouldhave told you the generally
accepted definition of ghostingis disappearing on someone once
(02:48):
you're already engaged with them.
But now it seems that we'reusing that phrase just to
indicate lack of response to anapplication for a job or
unresponsiveness, and I don'tthink that's ghosting to me.
I don't think you can ghostsomeone you were never engaged
with in the first place.
(03:09):
Well, to use to build on thephrase itself, something has to
be alive in order for it to dieand become a ghost.
So if the relationship neverexisted, how can, how can you
ghost someone, right?
So that's it.
To me, that's vastly differentand I don't know if you agree
with my perspective or what'skind of become the way it seems
(03:31):
to be used a lot lately.
Ricky Baez (03:34):
I just, I just got caught off guard with that line,
with that, with the punchlineyou hit.
Something has to be alive forit to die and become a ghost.
That should be the name of thisepisode.
Pete Newsome (03:43):
I don't.
I don't know that that wouldget many clicks or searches.
No, no, you're right, or atleast not not with the intention
of hearing two guys talkingabout interview processes and
how to communicate postinterview feedback 100% right.
Ricky Baez (03:59):
But when.
What I was referring to asghosting is, you know, I think
if you do a pre-screen, right,you've engaged, there's, there's
a connection there, right.
And then when you go to thenext step and you say, hey,
let's do this next interview,and they don't show up without
any communication, to me that'sghosting Even worse.
Let's make an offer right,here's an offer, and they don't
(04:20):
accept, or they accept the offer, just don't show up.
To new employer orientation.
Those are the types ofscenarios that I was talking
about.
Pete Newsome (04:27):
So candidates complained about it, recruiters
complained about it.
Everyone in any kind ofrelationship complains about
that when it happens to them.
It's not a good feeling.
But can we establish, at leastfor our conversation, that
ghosting is not failure to replyto a job application?
Ricky Baez (04:46):
I agree there.
I definitely agree with that.
Pete Newsome (04:50):
And what's happened is I've been talking
about this a lot lately, alittle bit with you, but since
I've been on LinkedIn so muchover the past month, after not
really paying intimately closeattention to it for years, the
number of applicants for anysingle job is created a mess for
(05:11):
in the system.
Because it's so easy to apply,people will apply to dozens, if
not hundreds, of jobs withouttoo much thought into whether
there's a realistic chance ofbeing selected for that job, and
it's just kind of muddying upthe system for everyone else.
So the job that that individualwould be qualified for is
(05:33):
they're going to have a hardtime being found from that pile
of applicants because everyoneelse is doing the same Not
everyone, of course, but so manypeople.
So for any given job, there maybe a very small percentage of
qualified candidates who areactually a good fit for it, and
it makes the recruiter's jobdifficult, if not impossible.
(05:56):
You can't go through a thousandresumes.
You can't even effectively gothrough a few hundred resumes.
It's just you don't have timefor that as a recruiter.
So it's a bad system right now.
So for any candidates listening, don't take that personally,
don't consider that to beghosting.
I would tell you it's not.
Instead of just blindlyapplying to lots of jobs, go
(06:17):
after the ones that you're mostqualified for 100% and maybe not
just.
Let's all just stop applying tojobs that we don't even in our
own minds think we're a good fitfor.
Ricky Baez (06:30):
Agreed.
A thousand percent, pete.
I think that's called a shotgunapproach.
You apply to all thesedifferent jobs or you cast a
white net and see what kind offish you catch.
Yeah, it's, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome (06:41):
Now, that's a phrase I use a lot.
I don't want to get too offtopic, but cast a wide net to be
found right.
So make sure your resume iseverywhere it needs to be.
It's on all the job boards.
Your your profiles go yourresumes clean.
You're in touch with recruiters.
You sign up for email alerts.
Do all of those things to befound right.
Tell everyone in your networkthat you're looking for a job.
(07:02):
Ask for help.
But that's different than theshotgun approach to to just
blindly applying.
We know that we do?
Ricky Baez (07:11):
I'm just, I'm just throwing out all kinds of terms
that are just completely wrong.
Pete Newsome (07:15):
Yeah, that's okay.
Well, let's get.
Let's get back on the, on thetopic of really what we want to
talk about, which is interviewfeedback and the importance of
it.
So here's, here's what it does.
It brings closure to a process.
It's very important forwhoever's involved in it.
I mean, not to me, is whyfeedback is necessary.
What kind of feedback?
(07:36):
The depth of feedback, that's adifferent story, but I think we
have to start at just the veryfirst step, which is bring
closure to the situation.
Do you, do you agree with that?
Ricky Baez (07:49):
I agree.
I agree.
You know, especially when acandidate has invested so much
time in this process and andthey've been with you as a
candidate, you being therecruiter, they've been with you
every step of the way and theyit's it's only right that you
let the obviously the personknow who got the job and then
what kind of feedback that yougive to the people who did not
(08:09):
get the job.
That would they have.
That kind of closure Definitelyread with that.
Pete Newsome (08:13):
Now let's talk about the medium through which
that feedback can be given, andwe have options.
Today we could text someone, wecan email, we could call.
My take on that is the fartheralong with the process, the more
interaction you interaction youhave had, the more intimate
that feedback should be.
For example, if there has beena brief email exchange and you
(08:37):
haven't spoken live to acandidate, feel free to let them
know via email that it's not agood fit.
Now, that's not how I wouldrecommend recruiting in the
first place, but we know ithappens.
If you've met someone live, ifthey've come to your office, if
you've met them out for aninterview somewhere, then you
should do it via phone, youshould do it verbally, get on a
(08:59):
zoom call, even if you've takensomeone far down the path and
built rapport with them andestablish a relationship.
We've talked a lot in the pastabout the importance of
maintaining those relationshipsand ending on a good note,
because there may be anopportunity to work together in
the future, maybe the immediatefuture.
The closer you are with someone, I think, the more personal
(09:22):
your feedback should be.
Ricky Baez (09:25):
I agree, and this is something that I do talk to my
clients about, because you know,we do have some recruiters out
there that and this is odd,right, they're an introvert,
they don't like to have too muchin person conversations, and to
me I'm like then that's, that'syour recruiter.
You need to have that salesmantype of of of conversation
(09:46):
skills.
But you're right, the closeryou are to the end, the more
intimate you've hadconversations with this
candidate, the more intimatethat feedback should be.
So, for example, if you spendlike three weeks, you know,
working with a candidate andthey're not going to get that
job it's, I would not send afeedback via email or via text.
I will.
I will want to pick up thephone or meet them in person,
(10:08):
depending on the situation, orzoom, but it's personalization
is always best in thesesituations.
Pete Newsome (10:14):
It's not fun.
No one no one enjoys the badfeedback when we have to do it.
But it is important to the, tothe receiver of that feedback,
because otherwise they're going,they're waiting.
I mean, there's a lot that tiedto a job search, but let's
start with the good right,because there's a lot of times
we have the benefit of givingpositive answers and good news
(10:36):
to a candidate to let them knowthat they received the job.
So I'll tell you the time to dothat as soon as possible.
Right when you get that goodnews, you're eager to share it
right away.
Ricky Baez (10:49):
No, you're right, it's you want to do it as
quickly as possible.
You don't want because,remember, these days, these days
, candidates have options, theyhave options and if you take
your time to make sure you'vegot the perfect candidate, the
longer you take, the bigger gapyou leave for somebody, another
fisherman, to come in and stealthat big fish of yours.
So, yes, you need to be able to, to, to communicate that as
(11:13):
quickly as possible.
Pete Newsome (11:14):
Man, we, you're all about the fishing today.
You have nets, you have.
You have big fish, small fish,we got it all covered.
Ricky Baez (11:22):
Give me time.
I have a lot more euphemisms,so just get ready.
Pete Newsome (11:26):
But you're right.
So we want to to not let thatcan it sit on the sidelines any
longer than possible.
But we also want to be preparedwith the right information.
I think recruiters aren't don'thave the same depth of thinking
at times that you would, as anHR professional, worrying about
all of the teasing seas rightwhen we start that onboarding
(11:49):
process.
So, with that good news, inalmost every case the candidate
is going to have questions.
Now, sometimes you've coveredall of those questions up front
I'd say rarely and then once thesituation becomes real to a
different degree, where now,candidate, it's no longer if,
(12:09):
right, you've been given theoffer you need to commit or not.
That's when the surprisequestions can come out.
Now, if we were talking to do adifferent show, I would talk
about the need to cover all ofthings, all those potential
pitfalls, early in therecruiting process.
But even if you have right, ifyou've asked 100 questions,
there's going to be 101 that acandidate will ask.
(12:32):
And so how do you recommendpreparing for all of that when,
when the offer is made anddelivering it in the right way?
Ricky Baez (12:41):
Well, I mean, it's a recruiter who who does this for
a long time.
They tend to hear the samequestions over and over and over
again.
So the best thing to do, in myopinion, is, if you know these
questions are going to come up,beat the candidate to the punch,
beat them to the punch right.
Go ahead and just have a set offrequently asked questions that
(13:02):
the candidate might know.
And who knows, maybe there aresome questions that the
candidate didn't know theyneeded to ask.
That you have the answer forright.
So maybe put together afrequently asked questions.
Include that into youronboarding process.
And remember to me onboardingstarts as soon as the candidate
applies right.
That's when the organizationneeds to start telling the story
(13:22):
about the organization, why theorganization exists, why this
position is really important tosell that piece to the candidate
.
So include that in that processas early as possible to
minimize questions later on.
The more informed the candidateis, the more likely they're
going to see it through the end.
Pete Newsome (13:39):
Yeah, and those it all presents a better starting
point.
Well, not starting point,because you've already that's
already been initiated throughthe early interview stages, but
it certainly is going to givethe candidate confidence.
You know, a lot of times we seein the staffing world we see
things break down if the clientis too loose in how they're
(14:04):
willing to interview and make ahiring decision.
That freaks candidates outsometimes and we love it.
Being the third party in themiddle.
We want things to fly throughas quickly as possible, but it
happens I don't know if you'veever experienced that where a
brief interview happens over thephone, a hiring decision is
(14:24):
made and a candidate's like whoa, that seems too easy.
I have alarm bells going off.
So, to that point, you want tomake the candidate feel welcomed
and well thought of and knowthat you are, you know, taking
this seriously and you areprepared for you know, to make
sure that all their questionsare answered.
(14:44):
Don't be dismissive of those asa recruiter.
Ricky Baez (14:47):
See, I think that's the key Don't be dismissive of
the candidate's time.
So I think the hard part notthe hard part, the important
part here that people need tounderstand organizations and
recruiters you got to find thatperfect timeframe.
You got to find because you'reright, I know of a situation
really close to me that happeneda couple of weeks ago.
This person got a pre screen, a15 minute pre screen for a high
(15:10):
level R and position at ahospital.
Okay.
And in that 15 minute prescreen I'm thinking, okay,
that's it, there's, there's,there's, there's two more
interviews coming.
No, the next communication wasan offer letter and that kind of
took me back.
I'm like, wow, an organization,a position, when you have
people's lives literally in thisperson's hands, that was
(15:32):
decided in 15 minutes in a 15minute conversation.
So to me, to me, that issomething that I'm like, ah, I
don't know about that, but thenif you take too long with it
because you and I have talkedabout this in the past if you
take six interviews, then thecandidate chances are they're
going to go ahead and jump shipto go somewhere else.
So you got to find that happymedium on how long that's going
(15:53):
to take to have actually have awell thought out process.
Pete Newsome (15:57):
We do and we know every situation is unique, just
like every candidate unique.
So the most important thing Ithink you mentioned it earlier
is to prepare the candidate forthat process from start to
finish and ideally takequestions along the way.
So by the time you get to theactual offer, then all those
(16:19):
questions are answered.
So a lot of times there couldbe feedback from an interview in
between stages and prior to anoffer being ready, and that's
where I tend to say that youshould share less.
We can staff.
Everyone in staffing for a longtime knows what I'm about to
(16:40):
say.
Candidates come out of aninterview and they tell you I
think it went great.
Why do you think it went great?
Well, they showed me around,they introduced me to people.
They asked me when I can start.
Even that means nothing.
In fact.
Often when we hear those thingswe cringe because we go oh boy,
(17:01):
this is not usually that easy.
Now, we love it when it is, butit is an always case.
So I tend to be on the side ofgiving as little feedback as
possible unless it'sconstructive and will help the
candidate have potential to bemore successful in the process.
But otherwise I don't reallywant to try to give anyone false
(17:25):
hope in the process untilthere's an actual reason to.
Ricky Baez (17:30):
That brings us up a good point, because, from a
recruiter's perspective, youshould make the candidate feel
comfortable, but don't make himfeel that they're the one
prematurely.
That's like if a guy or a girljust says hi to somebody and
they're like, oh my God, theywant to marry me.
No, they just said hi, it's.
Don't overreact.
So, from a recruiter'sperspective, show them around.
(17:53):
Yes, let you know, introduce itto everybody, but don't do it
in a way that they think thatthey got the job.
Just you know.
You have to do it in a waywhere this is how we do things.
This is our culture we showeverybody around, we introduce
everybody because we take eachand every interview seriously.
That's how important this is tous.
If you show it from thatperspective, you're going to be
(18:14):
okay, and this has happened alot.
Pete Newsome (18:16):
I've seen a lot of stories about this lately
Offers being rescinded.
So if you tell someone an offeris coming, make sure that you
can back that up, because peoplelive on, hang on these words
that they hear and so, as theyshould, right, it's your career,
(18:37):
your employment, very big deal.
So don't say if you're the onein control, you have the power.
Don't give anyone badinformation or misleading
information through this.
And that goes to the next thingwe'll talk about, which is
sharing bad news.
I think it was Mark Twain, I'mgoing to get this wrong, but
(18:58):
that said, if you have to eat afrog, eat it early in the day, I
think as soon as possible.
The point being get the badnews out of the way.
Bad news early is good, we knowthat.
So don't sit on it.
No one wants to share it.
It's wild, ricky.
We tend to procrastinate andsharing bad news where you're
(19:20):
going to share good, but we siton bad, and that just doesn't
help anyone.
It surely doesn't help thecandidate who is waiting in
limbo, but we tend to do thattoo much.
Ricky Baez (19:34):
We do.
And look, my rule of thumb is Ireach out to give feedback to
the other finalists as soon as Iget assigned acceptance offer
from my first choice.
As soon as I get that, once Ihave commitment from that
candidate, that's when I startmaking phone calls.
But I don't wait for a week, Idon't wait for two weeks and I
(19:58):
hate to send.
I don't know about you, pete.
I hate to send that dreadedemail.
Thank you for replying.
Although we've got a lot ofgreat candidates, you were not
selected.
We'll hold your resume for sixmonths.
I hate that email.
I know that a lot of HRASsystem or ATS systems have that
already built in, but I'd ratherjust give them a phone call, to
be honest.
Pete Newsome (20:18):
But that's where I go back to what we talked about
earlier.
Right now, when there's so manyapplications being sent for any
opening, you can't call.
A thousand candidates, youcan't call 500 candidates?
Ricky Baez (20:29):
Absolutely, yeah, I'm talking about finalists.
If I got three people and thisis the last interview and I got
three people and I'm pickingonly one I'm going to make three
phone calls One great one andthen two that are just giving
feedback.
Pete Newsome (20:41):
Sure, now let me ask you.
You said this so if you havecandidates, if you have three in
this fictitious scenario, youhave your first choice.
Maybe you've ranked them.
I would tell the one who you'renot going to hire for sure.
It'd tell them as soon aspossible, but you're waiting on
an acceptance Because that couldtake.
That could add days to theprocess.
Ricky Baez (21:03):
Well, it depends, because if I put a 48-hour limit
on the acceptance offers and Igot 48 hours for that person, I
don't think 48 hours is anunreasonable time after the
interview or after a decision ismade.
Because here's the thing, Idon't.
I rather, if you okay, so let'ssay I call.
Are you suggesting that I callthe people who didn't get the
(21:27):
job first?
I want to make sure Icompletely understand.
Pete Newsome (21:30):
Well, two things they're different.
One if you've ruled them out, Isay call them right away.
If you're willing to hire themas a second choice, or even
third choice, then I understandwhy you'd want to wait.
So those are different things.
Ricky Baez (21:46):
So to me it's as soon as the person accepts.
Then I call the people who didgood, but this person just did
better.
And the reason I want to waitis because if the person who I
really want says no or says I'msorry, I have another job, I
still got my number two therethat I can call.
But definitely the people whoabsolutely I'm not going to, who
(22:08):
did not do well in theinterview, I can call them
earlier, much later, because nomatter what happens with my top
two, I'm not going to contactthat person because they just
didn't meet the criteria.
More reason to give them a call.
And I always ask hey, weselected somebody else, but I
have some feedback for you.
Are you willing to hear thatfeedback?
(22:30):
Because if they say yes, I givethem.
If they say no, conversationover.
There's no point in me givingfeedback to somebody who's not
willing to receive it.
I'm not mad or anything, but Idon't want to waste your time,
right?
But there's some people whoreally do take that feedback
really well.
And let me tell you, pete,there is nothing.
I think we said this before ifyou got five candidates and no,
(22:51):
five of them are really darngood, but only one can get that
job.
Yes, you make that call to givethat person that job.
But you have to treat thoseother four still with that red
carpet, still with that big love, because you want them to go
home and tell everybody aboutthe that awesome experience they
had.
They didn't have the job, butdang it.
(23:11):
They're going to come back andapply later on because that
experience was well worth it.
Pete Newsome (23:15):
I'll give you a very real, a real world, timely
example of exactly that.
We are in the process right nowof being independently rated by
clearly rated, which is asystem that exists to rate
staffing companies based on thefeedback of the candidates and
clients they've worked with inthe previous year.
(23:36):
And candidates have anopportunity and, as new clients,
have an opportunity to sharefeedback and give testimonials.
They have the opportunity toshare bad messages if they want
to, or critiques, but one of themessages that we received
yesterday the survey just wentout for us yesterday and we see
(23:56):
the feedback as it comes in wasa candidate that said one of our
recruiters.
They were working together.
They it wasn't a good fit atthat time because this candidate
was pregnant, but the recruiterleft the situation on a good
note, agreed to stay in touch.
When the person was able to beback on the market again, ready
(24:16):
to work, they reconnected and wehelped her get a job.
And that was such a cool story,because not everything is going
to end the way we hoped itwould coming in, but if we do
the right things, then thatrelationship can continue and
come back around, and there's somany examples of that.
This just happened, less than24 hours ago.
(24:39):
So, yeah, how about that?
And you didn't know that story,of course.
But I want to challenge you onsomething real quick.
So this is now you.
Your HR is showing in this andmy staffing side comes out.
You went from we had threecandidates and then a minute
later you had five.
Right, that's such an HR guywhen I'm thinking why don't we
(25:00):
just interview one, let me, letme just present the one you're
going to hire.
But that's different.
You said that 48 hours is anacceptable time to wait on and
offer acceptance.
Right, I would tell you that ifI've done the right things in
the recruiting process, that 48hours should be unnecessary.
That's what I mean.
(25:23):
I want to so bad news.
Early is good.
I take that approach withrecruiting.
I want to talk about all thepotential reasons a candidate
may not accept.
I want to talk someone out of ajob.
Right, let's get all the badupfront as early as possible.
Is it commute too long?
Are you not willing to leavethe situation that you're in?
(25:46):
Who else is involved in thedecision?
Right, that's something that Ialways talk about.
It's kind of a running joke foryears in our office where
candidates will say I need totalk to my spouse, my
significant other and I alwayswant to say you've been in this
process for a week.
You've had a phone screen, twophone screens, an in-person
(26:07):
interview, whatever.
You didn't mention this alongthe way at dinner Never no text.
You put on a suit this morningand left to go, and it never
came up as to why you were doingthat, when you otherwise would
be home all day.
To me, what that means is Ihave not done my job as a
(26:27):
recruiter thoroughly enough upuntil that point, because by the
time that final interviewhappens, I should know that the
person is going to accept.
What do you think about that?
Ricky Baez (26:40):
I got a counterpoint to that.
I got a counterpoint to that.
If I have done my job as arecruiter to get the very best
candidate possible and thisperson is boom, this is who
we're looking for.
We're excited about it, we'realready playing in the
onboarding process, if this isthe best person, then maybe
(27:01):
other positions, other companiesare thinking the same thing.
So maybe this person hasoptions.
So maybe this person has to gohome and talk to the significant
other and I got three options.
Who do I take?
Because I don't think to me forme to go into this process
thinking that I'm the onlyoption.
(27:21):
I think that's a recipe forfailure.
Pete Newsome (27:23):
Well, I agree with you and I think well, but I
think you should assume you'renot.
I'll go even farther with that,and so I'm going to have those
discussions too, up front.
If you're my candidate, I wantto know, Ricky, where else are
you interviewing right now?
What else are you considering?
Let's talk through that.
What are the pros and cons?
What is this job offer as themiddleman with this?
(27:48):
If you're a great candidate andwe're taking you through the
process, I'm not going to cutyou off because you have other
opportunities.
I'm going to use that asmotivation for the hiring
manager to say you're on theclock, you need to move quickly.
Ricky is looking at these otherthings.
I guess the point that I wantto make is if I've done my job,
(28:09):
I'm not going to be surprised byanything that happens in that
phone call.
If I'm expecting you to acceptand you say I need a day, I need
a weekend, I don't think I'vedone my job If I say, ricky,
we're ready to make the offer.
I know you have this otheropportunity and you had told me
all that and we know where youare with it.
(28:30):
We should have already evenagreed on the time frame.
So anyway, this is a little offtopic, but I believe that it's
important.
So much of these candidatedeclines or backouts happen
because the recruiter is onlyhearing and seeing what they
(28:50):
want to see in here versuslooking for reasons the deal may
fall apart.
So that's off topic though.
We'll talk about that later.
Ricky Baez (29:01):
No, but wait, I'm sorry, I guess I have to ask
this.
So are you saying that if atthe end of the interview process
and you're ready to extend anoffer, you do expect that
acceptance immediately?
Pete Newsome (29:12):
Yes, in fact, one of the things that I've always
done and asked my team to do isto ask before that final
interview, when the offer comes,can I accept on your behalf?
Because if you say yes to thatquestion, then I know it's
smooth sailing.
If you say no, then that's atime for me to stop and find out
(29:33):
why.
What did I miss?
What did we not cover?
Maybe we shouldn't go forwardin this step.
That's when I uncover.
Because, again, if I'm justtrying to push you through, is
it recruiters Good recruitersknow that it's not about getting
the interview, it's not aboutgetting the offer, it's not even
(29:56):
about getting an acceptance.
It's about having the candidatestart, stay and be happy and
productive in doing so.
So it's not about how you begin, it's how this situation ends
and you need to look forward allthe way through, and that's
hard.
It's hard to do as a recruiter.
When you're on the clock,you're trying to find a
(30:17):
candidate, you're trying to findsomeone to submit, someone who
will get an interview, someonewho will get an offer.
That's all great, but what youneed is someone who will stay
and be happy while they're there.
Ricky Baez (30:30):
Agreed.
Yeah, I still hold firm that Iwant to give them some time,
Because I am on the camp thatthe person who's the least
pushing not push you.
But I don't want to putpressure.
And if you don't put pressureon that person, he's just laid
back and say hey, here you go.
Let me know what you think, Letme know, Take some time talking
over with the family.
(30:51):
I think the right candidatewould gravitate towards you.
Pete Newsome (30:55):
But again, opportunity to have all those
discussions prior earlier in theprocess.
That's all.
So I think those are good.
Go talk.
I would ask you that and that'spart of our process.
Hey, ricky, who else isinvolved in this decision?
If you go, what do you mean?
It's my decision, my career.
And if later you say, hey, Ineed to go talk to my spouse, so
(31:21):
look, I'm planting seeds alongthe way or I'm dropping.
What did Hansel and Gretel?
What did they drop?
They dropped something.
Ricky Baez (31:29):
I'm dropping breadcrumbs there that's what
I'm looking for.
Breadcrumbs no, that's ET.
Pete Newsome (31:35):
Right, because, as these steps go on, in the first
conversation I have with youman, this is so off topic in the
first conversation I have withyou as a candidate, if I want to
see whether there's a potentialfit based on everything you
share with me, and if you say,well, I'm only looking at jobs
(31:59):
where I can work remotely andmine's hybrid or in the office,
well, I don't want to continuethe conversation, so I want all
these bad things up.
Who else is involved in thedecision?
Ricky, would there be a reasonyou wouldn't move 500 miles for
this job?
You need to get those things onthe table.
If someone's been employed for10 years and you're calling them
(32:20):
about a contract job that'sgoing to last six months, you
should probably dig deeply intowhether they'll actually leave.
So if you're a recruiter andyou're serious about your craft,
you should dig into thosethings early, not at the end of
the process.
That's all.
Ricky Baez (32:38):
Agreed, agreed.
I know we kind of went offtopic, but there's still an
important topic to talk about.
Maybe even morph into his ownshow, probably.
Pete Newsome (32:47):
So let's get back and wrap this up because this
feedback is important.
I am on the fence at times withsharing too much negative
feedback to an interview.
It's not going to beconstructive.
I use that word earlier bydesign, because bad feedback for
the sake of bad.
If you are low energy and Ineed an enthusiastic candidate,
(33:12):
I may not share that right.
I may say they were looking forsomeone who was very
enthusiastic, but if I knowthere's no potential for you to
be that thing I don't know thatI'm going to tell you you should
have done something that wasn'tin your.
You weren't capable of doing.
Ricky Baez (33:31):
But isn't that good feedback though?
So I think letting somebodyknow that hey, I'm trying to
word this right because I've gotto be careful here, pete,
because the recruiter has to beable to navigate this
conversation properly, and theyhave to be able to know what
(33:54):
kind of pushback the candidatemight give right.
So it's important at thebeginning of that conversation
that the recruiter lets acandidate know hey, a decision
has already been made.
Let's have a conversation aboutwhat feedback we have for you,
because I don't want thecandidate to start thinking and
get defensive and start tryingto say, well, I did this or I
(34:14):
could have done that A decisionhas been made right.
But if a candidate is puttingout a persona that we see is not
working, don't you think weshould let that person know like
, hey, this is not working foryou, or at least it didn't come
across to us?
Pete Newsome (34:34):
Yeah, every situation is different.
I think if you can offerconstructive feedback, that
would be well received, thenabsolutely do it.
I think for a recruiter it'sdifficult at times to be the one
in the middle who may not haveall the feedback to offer.
So I really think the hiringmanager whoever I'll just say
(34:56):
the interviewer, the interviewerwho's giving the feedback needs
to either be the one to give itor make sure that it's
explicitly spelled out for theperson who is going to give it,
because what recruiter shouldn'tdo is try to translate that
Well.
I think this is why right,that's not don't do that.
(35:20):
A lot of times, recruiters don'tknow and that's also something
that we should do better withwhere, if you are working with a
third party recruiter as ahiring manager, give them that
feedback so they can share itwith the candidate to leave a
good impression.
There's a breakdown there, andso one of the conveniences of
(35:40):
working with a third partystaffing company is you don't
have to deal with the ugliness,you don't have to terminate
people, you don't have to letthem down after an interview,
and that's kind of what you'repaying for, in a way.
But let the third partyrecruiters do their job
effectively, and part of that isrepresenting you well to the
candidates who didn't get hired,not just the candidates who did
(36:03):
, and so give them the feedbackthat is constructive.
That will be something they canpass along.
So that's really theperspective I was coming from
earlier, which is don't sharestuff that's not going to be
helpful.
Don't share things that aren't100% accurate either.
Ricky Baez (36:20):
Got it?
No, it makes perfect sense.
So two things there Either theperson who interviewed who has
the feedback should be able togive that feedback, or make sure
that person gets the recruiterspecific details on that
feedback to communicate over tothe candidate intelligently.
Is that what I'm looking at?
No, confidently, right.
Pete Newsome (36:41):
There you go.
Ricky Baez (36:42):
It's like ah, I don't know, maybe it's this,
maybe it's that You're not goingto leave a good taste in that
person's mouth.
It's just not going to work.
Pete Newsome (36:48):
So, speaking of leaving a good taste now you've
said this and we see it a lotthat you get an email or a
message that will keep yourinformation on file.
Now, most of the time if you'reselling or prospecting someone
you were just mentioning beforewe got on that you're getting
lots of LinkedIn messages latelyof people trying to sell you
(37:08):
stuff, right, we all know thathappens a lot and you haven't
established any rapport.
It's just a blind sales effortand you say I'll keep your
informational file.
We know that file is thedeleted email box, but in the
case of applicant trackingsystems and recruiting, it
(37:29):
really does happen.
So candidates need to know thatand recruiters who say it need
to mean it where they'll say wewill, if you're going to
consider that person futureopportunities, actually do it.
But it happens a lot.
I mean, we just told a quickstory about it, but that's how
applicant tracking systems work.
(37:49):
So you're in our recruitingprocess.
The first thing we do is seek toplace known candidates,
candidates who we've worked withpreviously.
We've already checkedreferences on.
Maybe we've placed in the paston a contract somewhere.
That's best case scenario.
So once you and I haveestablished rapport, I mean it
(38:11):
when I say reach out to you thenext time there's a good fit.
And so the reason why I want tomake that point as much as
anything is so candidates alsocan know that it's worth having
a conversation with a recruiterwhen you're a job seeker,
because recruiter's days changewith every phone call, with
(38:33):
every email.
You never know.
It's because I don't haveanything for you today, it
doesn't mean I won't havesomething for you five minutes
from now.
So while third-party recruitersdon't create demand, their
demand changes minute by minute,hour by hour.
So when they say they'll keepyour information on file, in
this particular case theyactually do.
At least the good ones do.
Ricky Baez (38:57):
Well.
So that's the thing there, pete, because I can understand from
a staffing legacy perspectivewhy that isn't an amazing idea,
why that's crucial to do thatway.
You have a wealth of talentthere for any client, right?
But in corporate America, everyorganization that I've worked
for that I've managed a teamthat I've had a team of
recruiters and HR peoplereporting up to me.
(39:18):
I always challenge them.
I'm like let me see what emailyou send out.
Okay, so you do keep theirstuff on file for the past six
months Excellent.
How many times have you goneback whenever there's a new
requisition?
How many times have you goneback?
Do you flag those resumes forlater on, crickets?
And that's when I change it, ifwe're going to send that out
and if we're going to tellpeople you did great.
(39:40):
Just somebody did better.
Keep applying right.
Keep an eye open for otheropportunities, and I'm going to
have this with me because I cansee you doing great things in
this organization when the rightposition comes along.
Pete Newsome (39:54):
And it's-.
Ricky Baez (39:54):
When the right position comes along, I'm going
to hit you up.
Pete Newsome (39:57):
And it's not said just to make the candidate feel
better in the moment, and farfrom it.
It's because that is the idealway to recruit.
Go to candidates you alreadyhave.
Don't go post a job fromscratch on some job board
somewhere.
Go to the candidates that youalready have in your own system.
You already have notes andcontact information for
familiarity.
All of the above Reach out tothe candidates first who you've
(40:19):
already worked with.
Ricky Baez (40:20):
Okay, well, it's a great idea.
Pete Newsome (40:24):
So emotions come into play.
We have to understand that whenwe're giving news, the farther
the more invested someone is inan opportunity, the more
emotions will be tied to it.
So just know that, and I thinkevery recruiter does.
And yet to ever meet anyone inrecruiting who enjoys making a
(40:45):
bad news call, I mean, you'dhave to be pretty demented
individual to do that.
I don't see it.
So we are empathetic by natureas people, but just to
understand that if someone'supset and they say something you
know in the moment, you'llprobably give them a little bit
of a break on that right.
(41:05):
But we should always becompassionate in that part of
the process.
Ricky Baez (41:10):
Absolutely, and that's what I'm saying.
The recruiter has to have thepersonality.
They have to have the peopleskills to communicate
information that the candidatedoesn't want to hear in a way
that's as positive as possible.
If I can give a real quickstory, pete, because I did that
one time, I was interviewing fora team manager many moons ago
(41:30):
and there was this one personwho we selected.
This person was perfect.
The second runner up was thathe was all right, right, but not
as good as that first person.
So I decided to call this personand give him some, some
feedback.
He was so upset, startedyelling at me call me a blanking
idiot because I made the wrongchoice.
(41:51):
And he started you just just,completely, just calling me all
these names.
And I paused and that's justmild because I'm like what am I
supposed to do now?
Am I supposed to tell him?
You know what?
You're right, I am an idiot,you are 100% right, let me bring
you on board.
So you've got to be careful andyou have to get ready because
(42:13):
you may have that kind ofresponse.
Now there's a civil liningthere, because for this person
I'm like man, I wonder if I ammaking that right choice.
And that person just solidifiedmy position.
When that person cuts me out,I'm like you know what thank you
for alleviating myself fromsleepless nights thinking that I
made the wrong choice.
You appreciate that.
Pete Newsome (42:35):
Well, look it's.
It's an emotional time.
It happens.
I'd like to tell everyone thatwe should all handle these
things with grace, but it'seasier said than done.
If someone's been on the marketfor a long time and really
needs you know, just don't workit again.
Ricky Baez (42:54):
So, from a recruits perspective, just because you
get one person who reacts to youthat way, it doesn't mean you
have to alter how youcommunicate to the other person,
how you communicate to theother 90%, who will take that
feedback to heart.
Correct Will follow up withyour advice.
Do not let those situationschange how you communicate to
everybody.
Pete Newsome (43:12):
And you can't be in recruiting for any period of
time without understanding that,because even if, for any single
job opening, there's only goingto be one, you know one happy
outcome right from that,everything else is going to be a
failure.
It's like the NCAA basketballtournament, right?
Every I think about this everyyear in the major conferences,
(43:32):
every team but one loses, endstheir season on a loss.
Yeah, every single, everysingle team in college
basketball who's in a conferenceeligible for the tournament
ends on a loss, except for one.
Those are really bad odds foreveryone else to end on a high
note, isn't it?
Ricky Baez (43:50):
It's a great example right.
Pete Newsome (43:52):
It's right.
I think about it every year andI'm not even I'm not even the
most empathetic person by nature, but when I think of that I it
does resonate, because we get alot of nose to just get those
handful of yeses that we reallyhave to appreciate.
And so that's why, ricky, whenthat offer comes and I'll close
(44:14):
with this today when there'snothing better than when a
recruiter and anyone who's beena recruiting for any period of
time knows this right I'll setthe stage.
You get the word.
We're offering that yourcandidate the job go make the
offer.
One of two feelings come outeither fear, because I'm afraid
(44:36):
they're not going to accept, orelation, because you know that
they will.
How well you've done your job,building rapport, communicating
back and forth with thecandidate.
You know that.
That tells you that feeling.
It doesn't matter what you sayexternally.
We all know that feeling andI've watched it so many times
(44:57):
play out with the recruiterswhere they're like oh, I have to
make this job offer.
I don't know how it's going togo.
Or I'm rushing to the phonebecause we're about to have a
party when I make this offer,and the best recruiters are the
ones who know they're about tohave a party or they're not
surprised by whatever happenswhen they make that phone call.
So that's really a way ofwrapping a bow around what I was
(45:18):
saying earlier, which is crossteasing dot eyes along the way.
Right, keep checking.
Don't assume things are good.
Assume they're not.
Don't assume the candidates andinterviewing elsewhere, assume
they are.
Do all that.
You won't be surprised at theend, and that's really the goal
of the successful recruitingprocess.
Ricky Baez (45:36):
Here we go, and, and , and.
I think that does it.
Pete that right there, doesn't?
It wraps it up in a bow, and Iwill.
I will leave everybody withjust saying this as a recruiter,
if you're communicating thisinformation, did not forget the
H, did not forget the H and Hare it's.
They've gone through a longprocess, especially for those
folks who have been poundingthat pavement trying to get that
(45:57):
job.
Let them down easy, right,given some kind of hope for
later on, if they, if you know,if there's somebody who you
would hire later on, and forthose who, like this, just
didn't hit that mark, and Ithink that's really the right
tool, is the right tips.
That way they can come back andinterview much better next time
.
Pete Newsome (46:14):
Great way to treat others.
As you want to be treated Cannever go wrong, right?
Oh, awesome, ricky.
Thank you Everyone.
Thanks for listening today.
Email us we are due for a Q andA.
Hire calling@4 corner resources.
com.
Email us, let us know yourthoughts, ideas, we'll, we'll
(46:34):
get to it on our next episode.
Ricky Baez (46:37):
Spell calling I need to spell calling?
Pete Newsome (46:41):
Well, 4 Corner Resources is a sound you can
figure out.
If you figure out how to spellthat correctly, the rest excels
itself All right, have a goodone.
Thank you.
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast,
your source for all thingshiring, staffing and recruiting.
I'm Pete Newsome, joined todayonce again by Ricky Baez.
Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez (00:11):
I am doing great.
Pete, How's this week treatingyou?
Pete Newsome (00:14):
So far, so good, but it's Thursday.
Ricky Baez (00:17):
Anything could happen, not over yet, not over
yet.
I'm with you on that.
Pete Newsome (00:21):
Anything could still happen.
Ricky, you're back in townafter a trip to Maryland.
Welcome, welcome home toOrlando.
Ricky Baez (00:27):
Thank you.
Pete Newsome (00:28):
We're talking today about something that is
important to a lot of peopleright now, because there's a lot
of job seekers and we see themon LinkedIn and they get very
frustrated at times about lackof feedback, and so we thought
it would be a good opportunityto talk about best practices for
giving feedback after aninterview.
(00:49):
Sometimes it's good.
We all love doing that.
A lot of times it isn't Not somuch fun, right.
No one enjoys that, but it's anecessary and important part of
the process.
Ricky Baez (01:00):
That's right, I agree, and it's not just giving
back that feedback to thecandidate, but kind of letting
the candidate know what toexpect in the entire process,
from beginning to end.
Because in your opinion, pete,what is the biggest?
I don't want to see a concerncomplaint of recruiters.
Pete Newsome (01:21):
Well, recruiters complain about.
Recruiters complain about lotsof things, but it depends on the
recruiter.
A lot of times recruiters waiton the hiring managers to make
decisions.
Recruiters complain about that.
So length of process is what Ithink probably frustrates the
recruiters the most.
Just from a very high levelstandpoint, both on the
(01:46):
candidate side and internalprocess is, whatever they may be
, hiring managers not makingdecisions all of those things
commonly frustrate recruiters.
Is that where you're going, orin a different direction?
Ricky Baez (01:57):
Well, I was going to one specific thing, and it's
ghosting, being ghosted.
Whenever a recruiter puts anentity, an organization puts
together an interview processand they say, hey, be here at
this time, especially in Zoom,and sometimes candidates just
don't show up and that's thebiggest concern that I keep
(02:18):
hearing and the biggest way, thebest way to combat that is
inform the candidate, keep thecandidate feedback, keep the
candidate informed of the entireprocess.
Pete Newsome (02:28):
Let's talk about ghosting just for a second.
That phrase gets used a lotlately and it seems to have
morphed into something differentthan I would define it by, and
up until very recently, I wouldhave told you the generally
accepted definition of ghostingis disappearing on someone once
(02:48):
you're already engaged with them.
But now it seems that we'reusing that phrase just to
indicate lack of response to anapplication for a job or
unresponsiveness, and I don'tthink that's ghosting to me.
I don't think you can ghostsomeone you were never engaged
with in the first place.
(03:09):
Well, to use to build on thephrase itself, something has to
be alive in order for it to dieand become a ghost.
So if the relationship neverexisted, how can, how can you
ghost someone, right?
So that's it.
To me, that's vastly differentand I don't know if you agree
with my perspective or what'skind of become the way it seems
(03:31):
to be used a lot lately.
Ricky Baez (03:34):
I just, I just got caught off guard with that line,
with that, with the punchlineyou hit.
Something has to be alive forit to die and become a ghost.
That should be the name of thisepisode.
Pete Newsome (03:43):
I don't.
I don't know that that wouldget many clicks or searches.
No, no, you're right, or atleast not not with the intention
of hearing two guys talkingabout interview processes and
how to communicate postinterview feedback 100% right.
Ricky Baez (03:59):
But when.
What I was referring to asghosting is, you know, I think
if you do a pre-screen, right,you've engaged, there's, there's
a connection there, right.
And then when you go to thenext step and you say, hey,
let's do this next interview,and they don't show up without
any communication, to me that'sghosting Even worse.
Let's make an offer right,here's an offer, and they don't
(04:20):
accept, or they accept the offer, just don't show up.
To new employer orientation.
Those are the types ofscenarios that I was talking
about.
Pete Newsome (04:27):
So candidates complained about it, recruiters
complained about it.
Everyone in any kind ofrelationship complains about
that when it happens to them.
It's not a good feeling.
But can we establish, at leastfor our conversation, that
ghosting is not failure to replyto a job application?
Ricky Baez (04:46):
I agree there.
I definitely agree with that.
Pete Newsome (04:50):
And what's happened is I've been talking
about this a lot lately, alittle bit with you, but since
I've been on LinkedIn so muchover the past month, after not
really paying intimately closeattention to it for years, the
number of applicants for anysingle job is created a mess for
(05:11):
in the system.
Because it's so easy to apply,people will apply to dozens, if
not hundreds, of jobs withouttoo much thought into whether
there's a realistic chance ofbeing selected for that job, and
it's just kind of muddying upthe system for everyone else.
So the job that that individualwould be qualified for is
(05:33):
they're going to have a hardtime being found from that pile
of applicants because everyoneelse is doing the same Not
everyone, of course, but so manypeople.
So for any given job, there maybe a very small percentage of
qualified candidates who areactually a good fit for it, and
it makes the recruiter's jobdifficult, if not impossible.
(05:56):
You can't go through a thousandresumes.
You can't even effectively gothrough a few hundred resumes.
It's just you don't have timefor that as a recruiter.
So it's a bad system right now.
So for any candidates listening, don't take that personally,
don't consider that to beghosting.
I would tell you it's not.
Instead of just blindlyapplying to lots of jobs, go
(06:17):
after the ones that you're mostqualified for 100% and maybe not
just.
Let's all just stop applying tojobs that we don't even in our
own minds think we're a good fitfor.
Ricky Baez (06:30):
Agreed.
A thousand percent, pete.
I think that's called a shotgunapproach.
You apply to all thesedifferent jobs or you cast a
white net and see what kind offish you catch.
Yeah, it's, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome (06:41):
Now, that's a phrase I use a lot.
I don't want to get too offtopic, but cast a wide net to be
found right.
So make sure your resume iseverywhere it needs to be.
It's on all the job boards.
Your your profiles go yourresumes clean.
You're in touch with recruiters.
You sign up for email alerts.
Do all of those things to befound right.
Tell everyone in your networkthat you're looking for a job.
(07:02):
Ask for help.
But that's different than theshotgun approach to to just
blindly applying.
We know that we do?
Ricky Baez (07:11):
I'm just, I'm just throwing out all kinds of terms
that are just completely wrong.
Pete Newsome (07:15):
Yeah, that's okay.
Well, let's get.
Let's get back on the, on thetopic of really what we want to
talk about, which is interviewfeedback and the importance of
it.
So here's, here's what it does.
It brings closure to a process.
It's very important forwhoever's involved in it.
I mean, not to me, is whyfeedback is necessary.
What kind of feedback?
(07:36):
The depth of feedback, that's adifferent story, but I think we
have to start at just the veryfirst step, which is bring
closure to the situation.
Do you, do you agree with that?
Ricky Baez (07:49):
I agree.
I agree.
You know, especially when acandidate has invested so much
time in this process and andthey've been with you as a
candidate, you being therecruiter, they've been with you
every step of the way and theyit's it's only right that you
let the obviously the personknow who got the job and then
what kind of feedback that yougive to the people who did not
(08:09):
get the job.
That would they have.
That kind of closure Definitelyread with that.
Pete Newsome (08:13):
Now let's talk about the medium through which
that feedback can be given, andwe have options.
Today we could text someone, wecan email, we could call.
My take on that is the fartheralong with the process, the more
interaction you interaction youhave had, the more intimate
that feedback should be.
For example, if there has beena brief email exchange and you
(08:37):
haven't spoken live to acandidate, feel free to let them
know via email that it's not agood fit.
Now, that's not how I wouldrecommend recruiting in the
first place, but we know ithappens.
If you've met someone live, ifthey've come to your office, if
you've met them out for aninterview somewhere, then you
should do it via phone, youshould do it verbally, get on a
(08:59):
zoom call, even if you've takensomeone far down the path and
built rapport with them andestablish a relationship.
We've talked a lot in the pastabout the importance of
maintaining those relationshipsand ending on a good note,
because there may be anopportunity to work together in
the future, maybe the immediatefuture.
The closer you are with someone, I think, the more personal
(09:22):
your feedback should be.
Ricky Baez (09:25):
I agree, and this is something that I do talk to my
clients about, because you know,we do have some recruiters out
there that and this is odd,right, they're an introvert,
they don't like to have too muchin person conversations, and to
me I'm like then that's, that'syour recruiter.
You need to have that salesmantype of of of conversation
(09:46):
skills.
But you're right, the closeryou are to the end, the more
intimate you've hadconversations with this
candidate, the more intimatethat feedback should be.
So, for example, if you spendlike three weeks, you know,
working with a candidate andthey're not going to get that
job it's, I would not send afeedback via email or via text.
I will.
I will want to pick up thephone or meet them in person,
(10:08):
depending on the situation, orzoom, but it's personalization
is always best in thesesituations.
Pete Newsome (10:14):
It's not fun.
No one no one enjoys the badfeedback when we have to do it.
But it is important to the, tothe receiver of that feedback,
because otherwise they're going,they're waiting.
I mean, there's a lot that tiedto a job search, but let's
start with the good right,because there's a lot of times
we have the benefit of givingpositive answers and good news
(10:36):
to a candidate to let them knowthat they received the job.
So I'll tell you the time to dothat as soon as possible.
Right when you get that goodnews, you're eager to share it
right away.
Ricky Baez (10:49):
No, you're right, it's you want to do it as
quickly as possible.
You don't want because,remember, these days, these days
, candidates have options, theyhave options and if you take
your time to make sure you'vegot the perfect candidate, the
longer you take, the bigger gapyou leave for somebody, another
fisherman, to come in and stealthat big fish of yours.
So, yes, you need to be able to, to, to communicate that as
(11:13):
quickly as possible.
Pete Newsome (11:14):
Man, we, you're all about the fishing today.
You have nets, you have.
You have big fish, small fish,we got it all covered.
Ricky Baez (11:22):
Give me time.
I have a lot more euphemisms,so just get ready.
Pete Newsome (11:26):
But you're right.
So we want to to not let thatcan it sit on the sidelines any
longer than possible.
But we also want to be preparedwith the right information.
I think recruiters aren't don'thave the same depth of thinking
at times that you would, as anHR professional, worrying about
all of the teasing seas rightwhen we start that onboarding
(11:49):
process.
So, with that good news, inalmost every case the candidate
is going to have questions.
Now, sometimes you've coveredall of those questions up front
I'd say rarely and then once thesituation becomes real to a
different degree, where now,candidate, it's no longer if,
(12:09):
right, you've been given theoffer you need to commit or not.
That's when the surprisequestions can come out.
Now, if we were talking to do adifferent show, I would talk
about the need to cover all ofthings, all those potential
pitfalls, early in therecruiting process.
But even if you have right, ifyou've asked 100 questions,
there's going to be 101 that acandidate will ask.
(12:32):
And so how do you recommendpreparing for all of that when,
when the offer is made anddelivering it in the right way?
Ricky Baez (12:41):
Well, I mean, it's a recruiter who who does this for
a long time.
They tend to hear the samequestions over and over and over
again.
So the best thing to do, in myopinion, is, if you know these
questions are going to come up,beat the candidate to the punch,
beat them to the punch right.
Go ahead and just have a set offrequently asked questions that
(13:02):
the candidate might know.
And who knows, maybe there aresome questions that the
candidate didn't know theyneeded to ask.
That you have the answer forright.
So maybe put together afrequently asked questions.
Include that into youronboarding process.
And remember to me onboardingstarts as soon as the candidate
applies right.
That's when the organizationneeds to start telling the story
(13:22):
about the organization, why theorganization exists, why this
position is really important tosell that piece to the candidate
.
So include that in that processas early as possible to
minimize questions later on.
The more informed the candidateis, the more likely they're
going to see it through the end.
Pete Newsome (13:39):
Yeah, and those it all presents a better starting
point.
Well, not starting point,because you've already that's
already been initiated throughthe early interview stages, but
it certainly is going to givethe candidate confidence.
You know, a lot of times we seein the staffing world we see
things break down if the clientis too loose in how they're
(14:04):
willing to interview and make ahiring decision.
That freaks candidates outsometimes and we love it.
Being the third party in themiddle.
We want things to fly throughas quickly as possible, but it
happens I don't know if you'veever experienced that where a
brief interview happens over thephone, a hiring decision is
(14:24):
made and a candidate's like whoa, that seems too easy.
I have alarm bells going off.
So, to that point, you want tomake the candidate feel welcomed
and well thought of and knowthat you are, you know, taking
this seriously and you areprepared for you know, to make
sure that all their questionsare answered.
(14:44):
Don't be dismissive of those asa recruiter.
Ricky Baez (14:47):
See, I think that's the key Don't be dismissive of
the candidate's time.
So I think the hard part notthe hard part, the important
part here that people need tounderstand organizations and
recruiters you got to find thatperfect timeframe.
You got to find because you'reright, I know of a situation
really close to me that happeneda couple of weeks ago.
This person got a pre screen, a15 minute pre screen for a high
(15:10):
level R and position at ahospital.
Okay.
And in that 15 minute prescreen I'm thinking, okay,
that's it, there's, there's,there's, there's two more
interviews coming.
No, the next communication wasan offer letter and that kind of
took me back.
I'm like, wow, an organization,a position, when you have
people's lives literally in thisperson's hands, that was
(15:32):
decided in 15 minutes in a 15minute conversation.
So to me, to me, that issomething that I'm like, ah, I
don't know about that, but thenif you take too long with it
because you and I have talkedabout this in the past if you
take six interviews, then thecandidate chances are they're
going to go ahead and jump shipto go somewhere else.
So you got to find that happymedium on how long that's going
(15:53):
to take to have actually have awell thought out process.
Pete Newsome (15:57):
We do and we know every situation is unique, just
like every candidate unique.
So the most important thing Ithink you mentioned it earlier
is to prepare the candidate forthat process from start to
finish and ideally takequestions along the way.
So by the time you get to theactual offer, then all those
(16:19):
questions are answered.
So a lot of times there couldbe feedback from an interview in
between stages and prior to anoffer being ready, and that's
where I tend to say that youshould share less.
We can staff.
Everyone in staffing for a longtime knows what I'm about to
(16:40):
say.
Candidates come out of aninterview and they tell you I
think it went great.
Why do you think it went great?
Well, they showed me around,they introduced me to people.
They asked me when I can start.
Even that means nothing.
In fact.
Often when we hear those thingswe cringe because we go oh boy,
(17:01):
this is not usually that easy.
Now, we love it when it is, butit is an always case.
So I tend to be on the side ofgiving as little feedback as
possible unless it'sconstructive and will help the
candidate have potential to bemore successful in the process.
But otherwise I don't reallywant to try to give anyone false
(17:25):
hope in the process untilthere's an actual reason to.
Ricky Baez (17:30):
That brings us up a good point, because, from a
recruiter's perspective, youshould make the candidate feel
comfortable, but don't make himfeel that they're the one
prematurely.
That's like if a guy or a girljust says hi to somebody and
they're like, oh my God, theywant to marry me.
No, they just said hi, it's.
Don't overreact.
So, from a recruiter'sperspective, show them around.
(17:53):
Yes, let you know, introduce itto everybody, but don't do it
in a way that they think thatthey got the job.
Just you know.
You have to do it in a waywhere this is how we do things.
This is our culture we showeverybody around, we introduce
everybody because we take eachand every interview seriously.
That's how important this is tous.
If you show it from thatperspective, you're going to be
(18:14):
okay, and this has happened alot.
Pete Newsome (18:16):
I've seen a lot of stories about this lately
Offers being rescinded.
So if you tell someone an offeris coming, make sure that you
can back that up, because peoplelive on, hang on these words
that they hear and so, as theyshould, right, it's your career,
(18:37):
your employment, very big deal.
So don't say if you're the onein control, you have the power.
Don't give anyone badinformation or misleading
information through this.
And that goes to the next thingwe'll talk about, which is
sharing bad news.
I think it was Mark Twain, I'mgoing to get this wrong, but
(18:58):
that said, if you have to eat afrog, eat it early in the day, I
think as soon as possible.
The point being get the badnews out of the way.
Bad news early is good, we knowthat.
So don't sit on it.
No one wants to share it.
It's wild, ricky.
We tend to procrastinate andsharing bad news where you're
(19:20):
going to share good, but we siton bad, and that just doesn't
help anyone.
It surely doesn't help thecandidate who is waiting in
limbo, but we tend to do thattoo much.
Ricky Baez (19:34):
We do.
And look, my rule of thumb is Ireach out to give feedback to
the other finalists as soon as Iget assigned acceptance offer
from my first choice.
As soon as I get that, once Ihave commitment from that
candidate, that's when I startmaking phone calls.
But I don't wait for a week, Idon't wait for two weeks and I
(19:58):
hate to send.
I don't know about you, pete.
I hate to send that dreadedemail.
Thank you for replying.
Although we've got a lot ofgreat candidates, you were not
selected.
We'll hold your resume for sixmonths.
I hate that email.
I know that a lot of HRASsystem or ATS systems have that
already built in, but I'd ratherjust give them a phone call, to
be honest.
Pete Newsome (20:18):
But that's where I go back to what we talked about
earlier.
Right now, when there's so manyapplications being sent for any
opening, you can't call.
A thousand candidates, youcan't call 500 candidates?
Ricky Baez (20:29):
Absolutely, yeah, I'm talking about finalists.
If I got three people and thisis the last interview and I got
three people and I'm pickingonly one I'm going to make three
phone calls One great one andthen two that are just giving
feedback.
Pete Newsome (20:41):
Sure, now let me ask you.
You said this so if you havecandidates, if you have three in
this fictitious scenario, youhave your first choice.
Maybe you've ranked them.
I would tell the one who you'renot going to hire for sure.
It'd tell them as soon aspossible, but you're waiting on
an acceptance Because that couldtake.
That could add days to theprocess.
Ricky Baez (21:03):
Well, it depends, because if I put a 48-hour limit
on the acceptance offers and Igot 48 hours for that person, I
don't think 48 hours is anunreasonable time after the
interview or after a decision ismade.
Because here's the thing, Idon't.
I rather, if you okay, so let'ssay I call.
Are you suggesting that I callthe people who didn't get the
(21:27):
job first?
I want to make sure Icompletely understand.
Pete Newsome (21:30):
Well, two things they're different.
One if you've ruled them out, Isay call them right away.
If you're willing to hire themas a second choice, or even
third choice, then I understandwhy you'd want to wait.
So those are different things.
Ricky Baez (21:46):
So to me it's as soon as the person accepts.
Then I call the people who didgood, but this person just did
better.
And the reason I want to waitis because if the person who I
really want says no or says I'msorry, I have another job, I
still got my number two therethat I can call.
But definitely the people whoabsolutely I'm not going to, who
(22:08):
did not do well in theinterview, I can call them
earlier, much later, because nomatter what happens with my top
two, I'm not going to contactthat person because they just
didn't meet the criteria.
More reason to give them a call.
And I always ask hey, weselected somebody else, but I
have some feedback for you.
Are you willing to hear thatfeedback?
(22:30):
Because if they say yes, I givethem.
If they say no, conversationover.
There's no point in me givingfeedback to somebody who's not
willing to receive it.
I'm not mad or anything, but Idon't want to waste your time,
right?
But there's some people whoreally do take that feedback
really well.
And let me tell you, pete,there is nothing.
I think we said this before ifyou got five candidates and no,
(22:51):
five of them are really darngood, but only one can get that
job.
Yes, you make that call to givethat person that job.
But you have to treat thoseother four still with that red
carpet, still with that big love, because you want them to go
home and tell everybody aboutthe that awesome experience they
had.
They didn't have the job, butdang it.
(23:11):
They're going to come back andapply later on because that
experience was well worth it.
Pete Newsome (23:15):
I'll give you a very real, a real world, timely
example of exactly that.
We are in the process right nowof being independently rated by
clearly rated, which is asystem that exists to rate
staffing companies based on thefeedback of the candidates and
clients they've worked with inthe previous year.
(23:36):
And candidates have anopportunity and, as new clients,
have an opportunity to sharefeedback and give testimonials.
They have the opportunity toshare bad messages if they want
to, or critiques, but one of themessages that we received
yesterday the survey just wentout for us yesterday and we see
(23:56):
the feedback as it comes in wasa candidate that said one of our
recruiters.
They were working together.
They it wasn't a good fit atthat time because this candidate
was pregnant, but the recruiterleft the situation on a good
note, agreed to stay in touch.
When the person was able to beback on the market again, ready
(24:16):
to work, they reconnected and wehelped her get a job.
And that was such a cool story,because not everything is going
to end the way we hoped itwould coming in, but if we do
the right things, then thatrelationship can continue and
come back around, and there's somany examples of that.
This just happened, less than24 hours ago.
(24:39):
So, yeah, how about that?
And you didn't know that story,of course.
But I want to challenge you onsomething real quick.
So this is now you.
Your HR is showing in this andmy staffing side comes out.
You went from we had threecandidates and then a minute
later you had five.
Right, that's such an HR guywhen I'm thinking why don't we
(25:00):
just interview one, let me, letme just present the one you're
going to hire.
But that's different.
You said that 48 hours is anacceptable time to wait on and
offer acceptance.
Right, I would tell you that ifI've done the right things in
the recruiting process, that 48hours should be unnecessary.
That's what I mean.
(25:23):
I want to so bad news.
Early is good.
I take that approach withrecruiting.
I want to talk about all thepotential reasons a candidate
may not accept.
I want to talk someone out of ajob.
Right, let's get all the badupfront as early as possible.
Is it commute too long?
Are you not willing to leavethe situation that you're in?
(25:46):
Who else is involved in thedecision?
Right, that's something that Ialways talk about.
It's kind of a running joke foryears in our office where
candidates will say I need totalk to my spouse, my
significant other and I alwayswant to say you've been in this
process for a week.
You've had a phone screen, twophone screens, an in-person
(26:07):
interview, whatever.
You didn't mention this alongthe way at dinner Never no text.
You put on a suit this morningand left to go, and it never
came up as to why you were doingthat, when you otherwise would
be home all day.
To me, what that means is Ihave not done my job as a
(26:27):
recruiter thoroughly enough upuntil that point, because by the
time that final interviewhappens, I should know that the
person is going to accept.
What do you think about that?
Ricky Baez (26:40):
I got a counterpoint to that.
I got a counterpoint to that.
If I have done my job as arecruiter to get the very best
candidate possible and thisperson is boom, this is who
we're looking for.
We're excited about it, we'realready playing in the
onboarding process, if this isthe best person, then maybe
(27:01):
other positions, other companiesare thinking the same thing.
So maybe this person hasoptions.
So maybe this person has to gohome and talk to the significant
other and I got three options.
Who do I take?
Because I don't think to me forme to go into this process
thinking that I'm the onlyoption.
(27:21):
I think that's a recipe forfailure.
Pete Newsome (27:23):
Well, I agree with you and I think well, but I
think you should assume you'renot.
I'll go even farther with that,and so I'm going to have those
discussions too, up front.
If you're my candidate, I wantto know, Ricky, where else are
you interviewing right now?
What else are you considering?
Let's talk through that.
What are the pros and cons?
What is this job offer as themiddleman with this?
(27:48):
If you're a great candidate andwe're taking you through the
process, I'm not going to cutyou off because you have other
opportunities.
I'm going to use that asmotivation for the hiring
manager to say you're on theclock, you need to move quickly.
Ricky is looking at these otherthings.
I guess the point that I wantto make is if I've done my job,
(28:09):
I'm not going to be surprised byanything that happens in that
phone call.
If I'm expecting you to acceptand you say I need a day, I need
a weekend, I don't think I'vedone my job If I say, ricky,
we're ready to make the offer.
I know you have this otheropportunity and you had told me
all that and we know where youare with it.
(28:30):
We should have already evenagreed on the time frame.
So anyway, this is a little offtopic, but I believe that it's
important.
So much of these candidatedeclines or backouts happen
because the recruiter is onlyhearing and seeing what they
(28:50):
want to see in here versuslooking for reasons the deal may
fall apart.
So that's off topic though.
We'll talk about that later.
Ricky Baez (29:01):
No, but wait, I'm sorry, I guess I have to ask
this.
So are you saying that if atthe end of the interview process
and you're ready to extend anoffer, you do expect that
acceptance immediately?
Pete Newsome (29:12):
Yes, in fact, one of the things that I've always
done and asked my team to do isto ask before that final
interview, when the offer comes,can I accept on your behalf?
Because if you say yes to thatquestion, then I know it's
smooth sailing.
If you say no, then that's atime for me to stop and find out
(29:33):
why.
What did I miss?
What did we not cover?
Maybe we shouldn't go forwardin this step.
That's when I uncover.
Because, again, if I'm justtrying to push you through, is
it recruiters Good recruitersknow that it's not about getting
the interview, it's not aboutgetting the offer, it's not even
(29:56):
about getting an acceptance.
It's about having the candidatestart, stay and be happy and
productive in doing so.
So it's not about how you begin, it's how this situation ends
and you need to look forward allthe way through, and that's
hard.
It's hard to do as a recruiter.
When you're on the clock,you're trying to find a
(30:17):
candidate, you're trying to findsomeone to submit, someone who
will get an interview, someonewho will get an offer.
That's all great, but what youneed is someone who will stay
and be happy while they're there.
Ricky Baez (30:30):
Agreed.
Yeah, I still hold firm that Iwant to give them some time,
Because I am on the camp thatthe person who's the least
pushing not push you.
But I don't want to putpressure.
And if you don't put pressureon that person, he's just laid
back and say hey, here you go.
Let me know what you think, Letme know, Take some time talking
over with the family.
(30:51):
I think the right candidatewould gravitate towards you.
Pete Newsome (30:55):
But again, opportunity to have all those
discussions prior earlier in theprocess.
That's all.
So I think those are good.
Go talk.
I would ask you that and that'spart of our process.
Hey, ricky, who else isinvolved in this decision?
If you go, what do you mean?
It's my decision, my career.
And if later you say, hey, Ineed to go talk to my spouse, so
(31:21):
look, I'm planting seeds alongthe way or I'm dropping.
What did Hansel and Gretel?
What did they drop?
They dropped something.
Ricky Baez (31:29):
I'm dropping breadcrumbs there that's what
I'm looking for.
Breadcrumbs no, that's ET.
Pete Newsome (31:35):
Right, because, as these steps go on, in the first
conversation I have with youman, this is so off topic in the
first conversation I have withyou as a candidate, if I want to
see whether there's a potentialfit based on everything you
share with me, and if you say,well, I'm only looking at jobs
(31:59):
where I can work remotely andmine's hybrid or in the office,
well, I don't want to continuethe conversation, so I want all
these bad things up.
Who else is involved in thedecision?
Ricky, would there be a reasonyou wouldn't move 500 miles for
this job?
You need to get those things onthe table.
If someone's been employed for10 years and you're calling them
(32:20):
about a contract job that'sgoing to last six months, you
should probably dig deeply intowhether they'll actually leave.
So if you're a recruiter andyou're serious about your craft,
you should dig into thosethings early, not at the end of
the process.
That's all.
Ricky Baez (32:38):
Agreed, agreed.
I know we kind of went offtopic, but there's still an
important topic to talk about.
Maybe even morph into his ownshow, probably.
Pete Newsome (32:47):
So let's get back and wrap this up because this
feedback is important.
I am on the fence at times withsharing too much negative
feedback to an interview.
It's not going to beconstructive.
I use that word earlier bydesign, because bad feedback for
the sake of bad.
If you are low energy and Ineed an enthusiastic candidate,
(33:12):
I may not share that right.
I may say they were looking forsomeone who was very
enthusiastic, but if I knowthere's no potential for you to
be that thing I don't know thatI'm going to tell you you should
have done something that wasn'tin your.
You weren't capable of doing.
Ricky Baez (33:31):
But isn't that good feedback though?
So I think letting somebodyknow that hey, I'm trying to
word this right because I've gotto be careful here, pete,
because the recruiter has to beable to navigate this
conversation properly, and theyhave to be able to know what
(33:54):
kind of pushback the candidatemight give right.
So it's important at thebeginning of that conversation
that the recruiter lets acandidate know hey, a decision
has already been made.
Let's have a conversation aboutwhat feedback we have for you,
because I don't want thecandidate to start thinking and
get defensive and start tryingto say, well, I did this or I
(34:14):
could have done that A decisionhas been made right.
But if a candidate is puttingout a persona that we see is not
working, don't you think weshould let that person know like
, hey, this is not working foryou, or at least it didn't come
across to us?
Pete Newsome (34:34):
Yeah, every situation is different.
I think if you can offerconstructive feedback, that
would be well received, thenabsolutely do it.
I think for a recruiter it'sdifficult at times to be the one
in the middle who may not haveall the feedback to offer.
So I really think the hiringmanager whoever I'll just say
(34:56):
the interviewer, the interviewerwho's giving the feedback needs
to either be the one to give itor make sure that it's
explicitly spelled out for theperson who is going to give it,
because what recruiter shouldn'tdo is try to translate that
Well.
I think this is why right,that's not don't do that.
(35:20):
A lot of times, recruiters don'tknow and that's also something
that we should do better withwhere, if you are working with a
third party recruiter as ahiring manager, give them that
feedback so they can share itwith the candidate to leave a
good impression.
There's a breakdown there, andso one of the conveniences of
(35:40):
working with a third partystaffing company is you don't
have to deal with the ugliness,you don't have to terminate
people, you don't have to letthem down after an interview,
and that's kind of what you'repaying for, in a way.
But let the third partyrecruiters do their job
effectively, and part of that isrepresenting you well to the
candidates who didn't get hired,not just the candidates who did
(36:03):
, and so give them the feedbackthat is constructive.
That will be something they canpass along.
So that's really theperspective I was coming from
earlier, which is don't sharestuff that's not going to be
helpful.
Don't share things that aren't100% accurate either.
Ricky Baez (36:20):
Got it?
No, it makes perfect sense.
So two things there Either theperson who interviewed who has
the feedback should be able togive that feedback, or make sure
that person gets the recruiterspecific details on that
feedback to communicate over tothe candidate intelligently.
Is that what I'm looking at?
No, confidently, right.
Pete Newsome (36:41):
There you go.
Ricky Baez (36:42):
It's like ah, I don't know, maybe it's this,
maybe it's that You're not goingto leave a good taste in that
person's mouth.
It's just not going to work.
Pete Newsome (36:48):
So, speaking of leaving a good taste now you've
said this and we see it a lotthat you get an email or a
message that will keep yourinformation on file.
Now, most of the time if you'reselling or prospecting someone
you were just mentioning beforewe got on that you're getting
lots of LinkedIn messages latelyof people trying to sell you
(37:08):
stuff, right, we all know thathappens a lot and you haven't
established any rapport.
It's just a blind sales effortand you say I'll keep your
informational file.
We know that file is thedeleted email box, but in the
case of applicant trackingsystems and recruiting, it
(37:29):
really does happen.
So candidates need to know thatand recruiters who say it need
to mean it where they'll say wewill, if you're going to
consider that person futureopportunities, actually do it.
But it happens a lot.
I mean, we just told a quickstory about it, but that's how
applicant tracking systems work.
(37:49):
So you're in our recruitingprocess.
The first thing we do is seek toplace known candidates,
candidates who we've worked withpreviously.
We've already checkedreferences on.
Maybe we've placed in the paston a contract somewhere.
That's best case scenario.
So once you and I haveestablished rapport, I mean it
(38:11):
when I say reach out to you thenext time there's a good fit.
And so the reason why I want tomake that point as much as
anything is so candidates alsocan know that it's worth having
a conversation with a recruiterwhen you're a job seeker,
because recruiter's days changewith every phone call, with
(38:33):
every email.
You never know.
It's because I don't haveanything for you today, it
doesn't mean I won't havesomething for you five minutes
from now.
So while third-party recruitersdon't create demand, their
demand changes minute by minute,hour by hour.
So when they say they'll keepyour information on file, in
this particular case theyactually do.
At least the good ones do.
Ricky Baez (38:57):
Well.
So that's the thing there, pete, because I can understand from
a staffing legacy perspectivewhy that isn't an amazing idea,
why that's crucial to do thatway.
You have a wealth of talentthere for any client, right?
But in corporate America, everyorganization that I've worked
for that I've managed a teamthat I've had a team of
recruiters and HR peoplereporting up to me.
(39:18):
I always challenge them.
I'm like let me see what emailyou send out.
Okay, so you do keep theirstuff on file for the past six
months Excellent.
How many times have you goneback whenever there's a new
requisition?
How many times have you goneback?
Do you flag those resumes forlater on, crickets?
And that's when I change it, ifwe're going to send that out
and if we're going to tellpeople you did great.
(39:40):
Just somebody did better.
Keep applying right.
Keep an eye open for otheropportunities, and I'm going to
have this with me because I cansee you doing great things in
this organization when the rightposition comes along.
Pete Newsome (39:54):
And it's-.
Ricky Baez (39:54):
When the right position comes along, I'm going
to hit you up.
Pete Newsome (39:57):
And it's not said just to make the candidate feel
better in the moment, and farfrom it.
It's because that is the idealway to recruit.
Go to candidates you alreadyhave.
Don't go post a job fromscratch on some job board
somewhere.
Go to the candidates that youalready have in your own system.
You already have notes andcontact information for
familiarity.
All of the above Reach out tothe candidates first who you've
(40:19):
already worked with.
Ricky Baez (40:20):
Okay, well, it's a great idea.
Pete Newsome (40:24):
So emotions come into play.
We have to understand that whenwe're giving news, the farther
the more invested someone is inan opportunity, the more
emotions will be tied to it.
So just know that, and I thinkevery recruiter does.
And yet to ever meet anyone inrecruiting who enjoys making a
(40:45):
bad news call, I mean, you'dhave to be pretty demented
individual to do that.
I don't see it.
So we are empathetic by natureas people, but just to
understand that if someone'supset and they say something you
know in the moment, you'llprobably give them a little bit
of a break on that right.
(41:05):
But we should always becompassionate in that part of
the process.
Ricky Baez (41:10):
Absolutely, and that's what I'm saying.
The recruiter has to have thepersonality.
They have to have the peopleskills to communicate
information that the candidatedoesn't want to hear in a way
that's as positive as possible.
If I can give a real quickstory, pete, because I did that
one time, I was interviewing fora team manager many moons ago
(41:30):
and there was this one personwho we selected.
This person was perfect.
The second runner up was thathe was all right, right, but not
as good as that first person.
So I decided to call this personand give him some, some
feedback.
He was so upset, startedyelling at me call me a blanking
idiot because I made the wrongchoice.
(41:51):
And he started you just just,completely, just calling me all
these names.
And I paused and that's justmild because I'm like what am I
supposed to do now?
Am I supposed to tell him?
You know what?
You're right, I am an idiot,you are 100% right, let me bring
you on board.
So you've got to be careful andyou have to get ready because
(42:13):
you may have that kind ofresponse.
Now there's a civil liningthere, because for this person
I'm like man, I wonder if I ammaking that right choice.
And that person just solidifiedmy position.
When that person cuts me out,I'm like you know what thank you
for alleviating myself fromsleepless nights thinking that I
made the wrong choice.
You appreciate that.
Pete Newsome (42:35):
Well, look it's.
It's an emotional time.
It happens.
I'd like to tell everyone thatwe should all handle these
things with grace, but it'seasier said than done.
If someone's been on the marketfor a long time and really
needs you know, just don't workit again.
Ricky Baez (42:54):
So, from a recruits perspective, just because you
get one person who reacts to youthat way, it doesn't mean you
have to alter how youcommunicate to the other person,
how you communicate to theother 90%, who will take that
feedback to heart.
Correct Will follow up withyour advice.
Do not let those situationschange how you communicate to
everybody.
Pete Newsome (43:12):
And you can't be in recruiting for any period of
time without understanding that,because even if, for any single
job opening, there's only goingto be one, you know one happy
outcome right from that,everything else is going to be a
failure.
It's like the NCAA basketballtournament, right?
Every I think about this everyyear in the major conferences,
(43:32):
every team but one loses, endstheir season on a loss.
Yeah, every single, everysingle team in college
basketball who's in a conferenceeligible for the tournament
ends on a loss, except for one.
Those are really bad odds foreveryone else to end on a high
note, isn't it?
Ricky Baez (43:50):
It's a great example right.
Pete Newsome (43:52):
It's right.
I think about it every year andI'm not even I'm not even the
most empathetic person by nature, but when I think of that I it
does resonate, because we get alot of nose to just get those
handful of yeses that we reallyhave to appreciate.
And so that's why, ricky, whenthat offer comes and I'll close
(44:14):
with this today when there'snothing better than when a
recruiter and anyone who's beena recruiting for any period of
time knows this right I'll setthe stage.
You get the word.
We're offering that yourcandidate the job go make the
offer.
One of two feelings come outeither fear, because I'm afraid
(44:36):
they're not going to accept, orelation, because you know that
they will.
How well you've done your job,building rapport, communicating
back and forth with thecandidate.
You know that.
That tells you that feeling.
It doesn't matter what you sayexternally.
We all know that feeling andI've watched it so many times
(44:57):
play out with the recruiterswhere they're like oh, I have to
make this job offer.
I don't know how it's going togo.
Or I'm rushing to the phonebecause we're about to have a
party when I make this offer,and the best recruiters are the
ones who know they're about tohave a party or they're not
surprised by whatever happenswhen they make that phone call.
So that's really a way ofwrapping a bow around what I was
(45:18):
saying earlier, which is crossteasing dot eyes along the way.
Right, keep checking.
Don't assume things are good.
Assume they're not.
Don't assume the candidates andinterviewing elsewhere, assume
they are.
Do all that.
You won't be surprised at theend, and that's really the goal
of the successful recruitingprocess.
Ricky Baez (45:36):
Here we go, and, and , and.
I think that does it.
Pete that right there, doesn't?
It wraps it up in a bow, and Iwill.
I will leave everybody withjust saying this as a recruiter,
if you're communicating thisinformation, did not forget the
H, did not forget the H and Hare it's.
They've gone through a longprocess, especially for those
folks who have been poundingthat pavement trying to get that
(45:57):
job.
Let them down easy, right,given some kind of hope for
later on, if they, if you know,if there's somebody who you
would hire later on, and forthose who, like this, just
didn't hit that mark, and Ithink that's really the right
tool, is the right tips.
That way they can come back andinterview much better next time
.
Pete Newsome (46:14):
Great way to treat others.
As you want to be treated Cannever go wrong, right?
Oh, awesome, ricky.
Thank you Everyone.
Thanks for listening today.
Email us we are due for a Q andA.
Hire calling@4 corner resources.
com.
Email us, let us know yourthoughts, ideas, we'll, we'll
(46:34):
get to it on our next episode.
Ricky Baez (46:37):
Spell calling I need to spell calling?
Pete Newsome (46:41):
Well, 4 Corner Resources is a sound you can
figure out.
If you figure out how to spellthat correctly, the rest excels
itself All right, have a goodone.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!