August 28, 2023 • 53 mins
Have you fully embraced recruitment marketing? Echo Gravity's Brian Jameson shares his insights on adapting your hiring strategy to the digital age. As a starting point, Pete and Brian discuss why the staffing industry has been slower to adopt digital recruitment compared to other industries. Afterward, they discuss the importance of maintaining the human touch in an increasingly virtual world.
If you feel overwhelmed by the competitive world of SEO and digital marketing, you are not alone. Brian and Pete emphasize the importance of developing a targeted, long-term marketing strategy to boost staffing growth. In addition, they offer practical suggestions for identifying what is working, addressing the gaps, and committing to a clear road map. From unexpected success stories to the significance of testing and refining, they've got you covered!
Looking ahead, they explore the potential for artificial intelligence in staffing. This leads to the discussion about the power of analytics, the advantages of marketing services, and the potential dangers of addressing risky topics in a polarized culture. The episode wraps up with a reflective conversation about success, aspirations, and the joy of sharing knowledge.
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Episode Transcript
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Pete Newsome (00:01):
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and this isyour source for all things
hiring, staffing and recruiting.
Really excited to have aspecial guest on today Brian
Jameson from Echo Gravity.
Brian, how are you today?
Brian Jameson (00:13):
Doing great Pete.
I really appreciate you havingme on here Just excited to share
whatever insights I can.
Pete Newsome (00:21):
Wonderful.
Let's talk a little bit aboutEcho Gravity before we get into
some deeper stuff.
Your co-founder, partner ofEcho Gravity, tell us a little
bit about the mission you guysare on.
Brian Jameson (00:33):
Yeah, so full transparency I used to be and I
think I've shared this with youaside I was actually recruited
by my business partner to workin staffing back in 2004,.
Worked in staffing for a fewyears, then I moved on to
selling marketing services for afew years.
I love sales, love marketing,but loved marketing so much I
(00:57):
was like, all right, well,what's my transition?
To getting into a marketingrole?
I actually went back and didthe MBA route so wanted to just
get that under my belt to see ifthat could catapult me into a
marketing role within a company.
To be honest, when I went backto school, I probably worked for
(01:20):
a bigger company and get intosome type of marketing
leadership program and that sortof thing.
But, as it would have it, itwas around 2008, 2009, which we
all know what happened aroundthose times.
So the job prospects were notscientific and actually
reconnected with my businesspartner at the time, kevin
O'Brien.
(01:41):
He was working for a softwarecompany at the time as their
chief operating officer and theyneeded marketing help.
So I basically interned withthem and started to get into
marketing and, yeah, found thisbook called Inbound Marketing.
It was written by the guys atHubSpot and that was around the
(02:03):
time they started their softwarecompany.
Most people know HubSpot andnot.
At the time they were all aboutmarketing automation and
content generation, how you canpush stuff out there and drive
basically traffic back to yourwebsite and create leads and
that sort of thing.
They've turned since into moreof a full blown kind of CRM
(02:24):
solution and some other things,but just went in all in on that.
I just thought it was like thegreatest thing and so we started
implementing those same tacticsat the software company,
creating a lot of contents,getting on social media, which
was kind of in the nascentstages at Facebook, linkedin and
(02:45):
some of the other ones and juststarted pushing that stuff out
there, doing different types ofcampaigns and just thought,
really cool results from a leadgen perspective, all B2B type
stuff.
And after a couple of years andagain the economy was not great
around that time in 2000, Ithink, 2011.
(03:06):
So after school I went andworked full time for them around
2011, 2012.
It probably wasn't great and mythen boss and current business
partner there might be a goodopportunity to bring marketing
to the staffing space, which wealso know really well, and we
kind of share the samephilosophy that it's marketing
(03:28):
within staffing at the time andI would still argue to this day
is a bit underserved andunderinvested.
And so that's what spawnedEchogravity.
We kind of went out in 2011,just said, just he and I and
said, hey, we'll kind of go outthere and be this like
outsourced marketing duo and atthe time we were writing blog
(03:51):
posts, we were writing socialmedia, posting stuff, running.
It's kind of soup to nuts, justhe and I doing it.
And slowly it grew and hestarts to gain some traction.
And then we added some more,much more capable team members
that were actually writers andwere savvy on social media.
And that's really what startedour journey with Echogravity.
(04:16):
And since then we've grownorganically over that time and
currently our 15, 16 people andservice 95% of our client bases
in the staffing and recruitingspace.
Pete Newsome (04:32):
I love your story.
You were getting started aboutthe same time.
I was starting Four CornerResources and, as you know, I
didn't do any marketing for 13years and if I had a dollar for
every time, I've kicked myselffor not having a different
perspective and approach backthen.
But I didn't know what I didn'tknow.
(04:52):
I, like you, I was asalesperson.
Marketing meant nothing to meback then and I think about it
so often and say what a massivemissed opportunity.
So what do you think it is withthe staffing industry?
I think about this a lot.
I'm sure you've put even morethought into it.
(05:12):
Why do you think the staffingindustry has not embraced the
digital world like so many otherindustries have?
Brian Jameson (05:20):
Yeah, I think it's.
I mean my personal opinion.
I think it's a combination ofjust that sales mindset and that
producer mindset is kind of theold school mentality which I
think a lot of firms back in theday would promote, which is,
hey, you got to smile and dial,you got to hit your numbers, you
got to go on so many meetingsand take so many people out to
(05:43):
lunch, and that's the way you'regoing to get requirements and
that's the way you're going tobuild relationships.
And I still think it's true.
I mean, you still need to buildrelationships and absolutely
there needs to be a sales andproducer recruiting presence out
there to foster thoserelationships.
But I think that's part of it.
It's like you know thismentality that I can kind of go
out there and do it, and I thinkthat you know it's kind of been
(06:06):
delivered from you knowleadership over you know kind of
the old again old schoolmentality is, you know, kind of
get out there, build yourrelationships and go do it where
you know so they've underinvested in marketing or they've
looked at marketing as, hey,you know, create a brochure or
you know, have something toleave on someone's desk or leave
(06:27):
behind in the folder and youknow I think we both agree like
those things are kind of datedand you know, in this digital
world that we live in and youknow, just being a little bit
behind the curve and being ableto push out stuff over digital
formats and having people beable to find you and learn about
(06:47):
your business and learn aboutissues that you're solving that
may be topical and, you know, ina less salesy type of way,
instead of just smiling anddialing, it's fostering a
relationship over time, talkingabout topics that might be pain
points or things that you'rejust posing the questions out
(07:07):
there, posing the topics andhaving an opinion, having
thought leadership, position andan idea on it and letting
prospects and people kind oflatch on to those as you go.
And I think, over time, Idefinitely feel like the
sentiment has grown andembracing marketing more,
whereas before it might havebeen like the big guys, like
(07:28):
have a marketing team to dothose things, so that starting
to see definitely a lot moresmall, medium sized firms
starting to embrace thatmentality.
I mean you look at social mediaand the prevalence, especially
LinkedIn and this industry Ithink that it has, and then you
can kind of see the way that,indeed, and some others, have
really forced people into themarketplace to focus on digital,
(07:51):
and you kind of need to bethere to some degree right Now
to be able to engage with people.
Pete Newsome (07:57):
I think you have to be there for sure, and
companies still occasionally askfor a brochure.
We were on a webinar together acouple of weeks back that's
when I invited you to join mehere because we had so many
great things to talk about then,and the subject of brochures
came up, and I just think it'sso funny where today it still
(08:18):
happens, where prospects willsay can you send me a brochure?
And I tell them, I tell them,like, get out of here.
The brochure lives on ourwebsite, right, which is so much
more thorough and so much moreinformation you could ever have
in a pamphlet of any kind.
But yet that mentality stillexists, and as long as we give
(08:41):
into it, right, it's going tostay, and so part of me thanks.
Well, who am I to tell companiesnot to do what they've always
done?
Because I think I have anadvantage over them, right.
But on the other hand, I don'tmind talking about it because I
think the rising tide raises allboats, right.
(09:02):
And so our industry is so wellpoised to be thought leaders,
and I don't think anyone's in abetter position to weigh in on
hiring practices, recruitingpractices, staffing practices,
than our industry, my industry,right, that you support, but yet
we're generally not thoughtleaders.
(09:22):
We're generally thought of asjust salespeople trying to sell
bodies right, which is howindustry used to be referred to
as body shops.
That's not at all the caseanymore.
So I mean, do you think, I meanfrom the time you guys started
in business, so 2008 to now, howmuch evolution have you seen?
(09:43):
Because I have to tell you Ihaven't seen that much.
Brian Jameson (09:47):
Yeah, that's a fair point.
I think it kind of goes back tohow you said it and it's kind
of spent like 13 years going atit with that same mentality and
it takes, I think, time torealize that you actually have a
story to tell.
You've got a history there,you've got all that experience,
(10:07):
you've got the scars and thestories to tell and the knock is
in the belt.
And I think a lot of peoplemaybe it's human nature that
people are just like well, Idon't really have anything
that's interesting to say, orI'm not good on social media or
I'm not a good writer.
But I think that's also part ofthe opportunity of being
vulnerable out there and beingreal and authentic.
(10:28):
Because it's like to your pointabout the brochures.
That's like a glossy thing andit's talking about how typically
right, so typically how greatwe are and all the good things
that we can do.
Which brochures that may havetheir purpose and, depending on
your audience and what you'redoing, if you're a firm that
goes to recruiting fairs andyou're meeting with people in
(10:52):
person, maybe there is anopportunity for that.
But I think it does boil downto just sharing that story and
kind of being not apologizingfor anything and just putting
yourself out there, and I thinkthere's just still that
hesitancy sometimes for firms todo that, and I guess that's
(11:14):
where also we come into play andwe'd like to try to be the
people that help those companiesthat maybe aren't quite sure
how to get started or aren'tsure how to tell that story, or
it's all sitting up in theirhead and it's like, well, I
don't know how to articulatethis.
Well, that's where a firm likeus or others agencies can really
help to bring that stuff tofruition in a creative way or
(11:37):
tell that story in your voice,even though maybe it may not be
easy for that person to do it,or that salesperson, that
recruiter or whoever that may be.
So I think it's just one ofthose things that's continued
growing, just like social mediain the early days, and maybe
even I know we'll talk about AIprobably here but people are
(11:58):
like I don't want to get into AIyet, but it's kind of that
early adopter phase, I think, inthat regard, whereas maybe
thought leadership and contentand social media and something
of that things people arerealizing they kind of, I think,
need to be there.
It's just a matter I think of.
To what extent are they puttingthemselves out there and
putting content out there tohelp market themselves?
(12:18):
I mean, the personal brand isanother aspect to this where
every salesperson will probablytell you a successful one.
You're not just selling thecompany, you're selling yourself
, because in this world that welive in and the relationship
matters when something goeswrong, they want to be able to
rely on someone that's going tohave their back.
So, working on not just tellingthe story of the company or the
(12:43):
firm that you work for, buttelling your own stories and
your own unique ways and how youcan help your customers with
those needs and sharing thosesuccess stories.
Hey, I've been in the trenches.
I can help you with thesethings and here are some ways
that we've done it in the pastand that might resonate with you
.
Pete Newsome (13:02):
It's a hard initial step to take, and I have
experienced some of these hardsteps in different aspects of
life.
Starting a business.
I thought, wow, I'm going tostep off a cliff.
And it's such a big drop untilyou take the step and you
realize it was only like a footdown.
It's like a movie where theperson goes over the ledge and
(13:23):
you're like they're gone foreverand they're only hanging on a
ledge five feet down and all aswell.
That's how it was when Istarted Four Corner and that's
how it was for me when I firststarted to venture out and share
an opinion on anything publiclyI've said this, I think
publicly before, so I'll say itagain is that I used to naively
(13:47):
say well, what am I supposed tosay on a staffing company
website?
It's five pages.
You have our contactinformation, you have our about
us, you have a home page withpictures and here's the services
we provide.
That's kind of it.
But in reality, as I wasalluding to earlier, as you've
reinforced, we're in thetrenches.
We are ground zero of howhiring happens, what works, what
(14:12):
doesn't, and so we're so wellequipped as an industry to share
it.
But it doesn't happen right.
So we know that.
So what can be done about that,I think, is the next logical
thing to talk about.
So when companies come to you,is there any kind of consistent
theme that you see of problemsthat businesses staffing
(14:32):
companies are looking to solveor hoping marketing will solve
for them?
Brian Jameson (14:37):
Yeah, I think that's a great question, I think
a very thought provoking one.
I think there typically are theobvious ones right, we need
more for many years, right Upuntil, I would say, 2023.
And recently it was like thelast three years hey, we need
candidates, we need to accessmore people, we need to build
(14:59):
that candidate pipeline Numberone it's kind of like the high
level Number two we need clients, we need to build that pipeline
.
So I think that's where maybethe challenge sometimes exists
is how do you get from this verybottom of the funnel need and
we're talking about marketing,which is very top of the funnel
(15:21):
in building awareness andbuilding recognition and
engagement which sometimes does,I think, requires some
education in most cases.
I mean, definitely, some clientscome to us and they know
exactly what they need and wekind of just get right into
(15:41):
discussing how the relationshipcan work and the types of things
that we can do.
But sometimes there is thisconversation around well, let's
just talk about what marketinglooks like for a stacking
recruiting firm, becauseultimately that's the goal is to
put more candidates intopositions that you've got, gain
(16:01):
more clients, grow the business.
So oftentimes I don't thinkit's like hey, I need to build
my brand awareness or I need tobuild, I need to engage more
prospects over this channel orthat channel.
Sometimes they'll say, hey, Iwant to.
You know a comment whenactually able to get us like hey
(16:24):
, I want to be.
You know, number one on Googleis also a big one that we'll
kind of get.
Snap your fingers.
Pete Newsome (16:30):
You can make that happen next week, can't you?
Brian Jameson (16:33):
Yeah, which is you know, and then that's a good
conversation to have, becausethen we can talk about specifics
, about, okay, well, that's agood goal to have, right, but it
is a journey that you've got totake in order to do those
things.
And you're competing.
You know the 20 person, 30person firm that's competing
against the 10,000 person firm.
Just by the sheer volume andsize of those companies, you
(16:57):
know you're not gonna be able tocompete to some degree on
Google with that.
So it's like you need todevelop strategies to come in
from other angles and reallyfind out.
You know how you want to engageand differentiate there so that
you can be found.
Pete Newsome (17:14):
I think it's, and I want to hear your opinion on
this because you're the expertbut my you know.
I've formed an opinion from myown experiences over the past
five years as I've entered intothis world, and it's almost like
the more I learn, the more Irealize I don't know.
So it started with me.
As I confessed to you earlier,I shouldn't repeat all this live
because it just makes me lookso terrible but that I thought
(17:37):
oh, email marketing, right, likethat's it.
I just need to do emailmarketing and it will solve all
my problems, even though mywebsite was five ugly pages,
right Disregard that.
I just need to send emailsconsistently and on a cadence
and all will be well.
So clearly, that's not it.
I had to establish thatpresence and commit to a
strategy.
But as I've progressed, I'velearned my strategy was based
(18:02):
around SEO to be found on Google, right Keywords and content all
the things that will lead tohaving your site show up on the
front page, being ranked.
But as time goes on, I'verealized how intimate strategies
can be for all the differentchannels that are out there and
(18:24):
I have not conquered.
I haven't conquered any of them, but I haven't even made
inroads to many of them, likeReddit, for example, or Quora.
I'm convinced you could build anentire business around
marketing correctly on socialchannels like those right.
Linkedin is huge in our space.
I don't think we've taken verygood advantage of LinkedIn.
(18:45):
I'm looking to change that inthe near future.
So I think there's a hugeintimidation factor coming in.
I certainly was intimidatedbecause I thought there's so
much to know and I don't knowany of it.
But what do you think is thebiggest barrier that staffing
companies need to overcome toenter into the space and commit
(19:05):
to marketing seriously?
Commit to it.
Brian Jameson (19:09):
I think number one is I think we kind of
touched on it Like it's not asnap your fingers and okay, I
hired this firm, they're gonnahelp me from one day to the next
, it's definitely.
And if you think about theother way around, like, are you
gonna hire internal staff tohelp?
And when you bring on somebodyinternally, there's typically a
(19:32):
runway to bring them up to speedand, just like any salesperson
to start producing or anyrecruiter to start producing, it
takes time.
So I think that's one of themaybe the challenges and, I
don't know, maybe misconceptionsthat I don't wanna paint a
broad brush stroke on that.
But I think that is definitelyone of the things like having
(19:54):
that mindset that it's not gonnahappen overnight.
It is a marathon, it's not asprint, which is something that
we use that terminology a lotwith clients.
And, to your point, like thereare so many different things.
So it's like, if you are and weservice small to medium sized
(20:15):
businesses, for the most part Iwould say 95% of the clients we
service are under a hundredmillion in revenue, so the
budget is not gonna be that ofand the major billion dollar
companies that are out therewhere they can kind of throw
resources at like, oh, let'sjust test and see what happens
(20:35):
on Cora or Reddit or some ofthese other channels that maybe
aren't the mainstream marketingchannels that you can pursue.
So I think having a strongunderstanding on how, what
dollars you wanna put indifferent areas and certainly an
expert or a resource that youhire or a firm that you work
(20:56):
with can help you identify whatsome of those things are and
putting your eggs in that basket.
Don't spread them all out indifferent areas, because I think
that's one.
I guess another area was likeoh, we need to do marketing.
It's like they wanna do, wewanna do all these different
things, versus like hey, let'sjust stay focused in this area,
(21:18):
whether that's hey, let's justfocus on LinkedIn or let's focus
on creating more content sothat we've got stuff to share on
social platforms like LinkedIn,or to help our search profile
or SEO performance, and sothat's probably the things that
I would point to.
I guess, in some of thechallenges and kind of like the
(21:39):
barriers maybe, so to speak, isjust like not knowing where the
focus should be and like justhaving a simple strategy that
doesn't need to be a robust.
It's like, hey, we wanna getthree pages to rank in the top
five on Google.
Let's start there.
Start simple and you can builda plan around some simple
(22:02):
strategies like that, versustrying to maybe boil the ocean
with your first go around orentering into the marketing
world and trying to market yourstaffing firm.
Pete Newsome (22:13):
I'm glad you clarified that because, trust me
, I was not suggesting youshould go after all these
channels.
The opposite right, becauseeach of them are so need their
own strategy.
If you take something likeYouTube, the big influencers
there seems easy, right, Seemslike they just put up videos,
(22:33):
but if you listen to thosewho've achieved great success
there, it's a science.
These people are tacticianswith it.
They study every nuance thatgoes into, whether it's the
content, title, the imagesassociated with it, what time
they post.
I mean, there's so much, andyou mentioned not boiling the
(22:56):
ocean, right?
I think that's a great way toput it and you don't need to do
that.
That's the good news, but youdo need to get in the game.
I say that, like anytime I starttalking about this, some of my
team members will be like, whydo you encourage others to do it
?
Because there's so much room,there's so much opportunity in
our industry and I think, ourindustry as a whole.
(23:18):
Like my self-serving reason fordoing it is that I think we
lack credibility sometimes andwe're seen as an adversary to HR
, for example, which should notbe.
We should be their biggest allyBecause, once again, we have
the knowledge.
So I think there's so much roomfor everyone to do better and
(23:42):
to improve our industryperception, and what you said
about being patient and needingtime.
We're in a relationship-basedbusiness most of us are, anyway
and you don't buildrelationships in a matter of a
day or two, so why would youexpect your online presence to
thrive that way?
(24:02):
Right, the best customers anyof us typically have are those
that were the hardest to getinto, because we had to burn it
and it's the same thing right.
If success came easily, thebarrier to entry would be really
low, and that would be anentirely different situation.
So I'm a big believer thatanything worth having is
probably worth putting in timeand effort to achieve, and for
(24:25):
me, marketing is certainly that.
Now I do want to ask you aboutbranding.
One of the big changes thatI've seen over just recently,
over the past couple of years,is personal branding becoming so
prevalent.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Because I see, once again, likeeverything else, some people
(24:46):
are doing it really, really welland reaping the rewards, but
most aren't.
I mean, where do you think thetrajectory of that is?
Brian Jameson (24:53):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
I think, and it aligns, I think, with the whole concept around
thought leadership, where beforemaybe it's like hey, I'm going
to post something on social andif you think about getting
outside of staffing, recruiting,just the whole influencer
marketing space, right, I mean,there's YouTubers out there that
(25:16):
are making millions andmillions of dollars just by
posting stuff like how to unboxgifts and toys and things like
that, and so I mean, I thinkthere's an audience for almost
everything out there.
Right, if you think about itinstead of you know, back in the
day maybe it was hey, I'm inthe Chicago market and I've got
(25:37):
this set of companies that I'mgoing to go after.
Well, now it's a little bitmore of a level playing for
field.
You can kind of go afteranybody, and so if you've got
something you're passionateabout and you've got a story to
tell and you're willing to putit out there, you know you may
be resonating with someonethat's halfway around the
(25:57):
country or on the other side.
You know, on the East Coast, onthe West Coast, and I think
that all plays into it.
I think you know with personalbranding and, admittedly, I
think it's an area, like youknow, I haven't really explored
it much, to be completely honest, for my own, for our own stuff,
but we've helped some companiesand some people, some clients,
(26:20):
with that and I think it justboils down to you know, if
you're passionate aboutsomething and you want to go
into it and you want to share itand put yourself out there,
then people are going toresonate with it.
So, but if you do it from aposition of like, hey, I just
want to get the rewards out ofyou know, because I've seen
(26:41):
these other people doing it andjust put stuff out there in a
non authentic way, I think it'sreally easy for people to, you
know, kind of tune out to thator just kind of see it as more
noise.
But I do definitely seepersonal branding as another
element.
Maybe, you know, peeling backlayers of marketing onion.
You know, if you think about itlike the company brand and you
(27:04):
know the people within it, andthen you've got opportunities to
go a level deeper and, hey,this is my personal brand, this
is what I'm going to be aboutand this is what I'm going to
talk about and people can getattracted to it or not, and I
think the pros outweigh the cons.
You know people are not goingto be like, oh, I don't want to
work with this person becausethey, they have a position on
(27:28):
something like this.
As long as you kind of stay awayfrom like the really polarizing
stuff which you know there'splenty of that out there.
But if you just keep it, youknow, purely focused on you,
know how you, how you're helpingpeople or you know what you're
doing.
You know we have a client thatis focused on.
You know other like parentsthat are out there that are in
(27:50):
business and not just in theirstaffing business and it's not
necessarily, you know most ofit's not even really about
staffing, but it does help herpush, put her her brand out
there in a way that A lot ofother people maybe aren't
talking about that stuff and itcan build some connections and
build a following and it's likeoh, by the way, this is how I
(28:12):
help companies and this is whatI do as part of my business and
that does have some benefits inthe long run.
Pete Newsome (28:22):
I couldn't agree more with that, and even though
it seems like staffing is pushedtowards commoditization a lot,
we see vendor management systemsand that sort of thing trying
to take the personalization outof it.
But my perspective is that weas individual staffing companies
are all so unique in the way wedo things, and who is a good
(28:45):
fit for four-corner resources isnot going to be a good fit
necessarily for the company downthe street and vice versa.
And that's okay.
Right, because it's a veryintimate thing, I mean that's.
I believe in that fully.
Is that nothing's more personalthan recruiting and hiring?
Right, Because these are thepeople you spend your waking
hours with.
So when you start working withsomeone, I mean I would imagine
(29:09):
part of your job is to have todraw that out.
Right?
Just kind of walk through highlevel of if once someone engages
in ecogravity I know my peersout there are like I was five
years ago and that is to say,largely clueless, right?
Maybe they weren't as cluelessas me, but I know a lot of them
are more, even more right, Iknow that.
And you're starting off.
(29:30):
Just kind of walk through thatprocess from introduction to
starting to put your content outthere.
How does that work?
Brian Jameson (29:39):
Yeah, I think it starts with just getting a good
pulse check, or audit, if youwill Like.
Okay, where are we at today?
Is there anything?
Is there a track record thathas been successful, anything?
Sometimes we work with clientsthat they have been dabbling in
some stuff and they've found athread and they're pulling on it
and it's working out well.
So we try to take inventory ofall of those things that are
(30:05):
already working.
So we don't want to.
A good example is like with awebsite, right, or the content
that's been out there andthey've already got really good
search rankings.
So we don't want to come in andsay, hey, let's do something,
so propose something that'sgoing to sabotage that or have
(30:26):
an unintended consequence isprobably a better way to put it
for that.
So it's really aboutcapitalizing on what's been
going well and then finding thegaps.
I think it's probably the firstthing that we're looking at.
So it's definitely like anaudit phase and then from there
it becomes a let's build out aroadmap that's going to focus in
(30:48):
on filling those gaps and thencapitalizing on the good stuff.
Looking at the budget, right, Imean budget does come into play
.
So how many resources can weput out what's the level of
effort that needs to go into itand really trying to focus in on
those things.
And, again, trying to bespecific.
I mean, typically we're notgoing to get hired to do
(31:08):
everything under the sun, sowe're going to try to pick our
battles, so to speak, and reallyfocus in on those things.
And that might just be hey,let's get a really strong.
You've got this great, greatbrand, you've got a great
personal brand out there,because you've got all this
history, you've got these, thesecontexts and you've got stories
to tell.
(31:29):
So let's have a strategy wherewe're going to share those and
put together a content calendar.
You know calendar, the roadmapis a big piece to it.
And then, I think, the executionpart, like sometimes a lot of
what we do is holding everybodyaccountable to moving stuff
forward.
It's easy to talk about ideas,I think, and everyone has ideas,
(31:53):
but it's like how do we bringthose to fruition?
And having those conversationslike and we'll propose ideas.
Maybe they're not all the greatideas, but let's pick and
choose the ones that we want totry to pursue and test it.
I like to say marketing is alot of testing, and especially
for somebody that hasn't done alot of marketing already.
You don't know what's probablygoing to work and what's not.
(32:16):
So sometimes it's a matter oflike, let's just test this out.
You know, maybe it's A Btesting to some regard, but
really it's like let's seewhat's what's going to stick and
what's not, and you know, okay,we learn as we go.
Let's throw out the stuffthat's not working, let's keep
improving on the stuff wherewe're starting to see some
(32:36):
traction, and then focus in onthat and then refine.
I think is kind of like as wemove further down that life
cycle is it's a lot of refining.
Looking at some of the metricsof what we're seeing, I mean in
the digital world you canmeasure pretty much everything
how much time somebody spends ona page, how much I mean you
name it right and you probablyknow as good as anybody and even
(33:00):
the staffing metrics right.
All the applicants that come inon the interviews and the
submissions fill rates and thatsort of thing.
So the analytics become a hugetool.
There's so many tools out thereright now that can help you in
marketing and they all measuresome aspect, to the point where
maybe you can drown some of theanalytics out there and also
(33:24):
that I guess becomes anotheraspect to this is focusing on,
like the KPIs or the key metricsthat you really want to focus
in on, that you feel likedriving that performance.
Pete Newsome (33:34):
Yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking of some
things that I expected to workreally well that did not, and
some other things that we didthat were very much a pleasant
surprise, and we would doubledown on those things and keep
our foot on the gas.
Can you think of any stories orexamples that you could share
about something that just was abig win or a surprise, that so a
(33:58):
real success story that youdidn't necessarily expect to see
?
Brian Jameson (34:02):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I would relate to
that tremendously.
I think there's been stuffwhere like, hey, let's put
together an e-book on some,let's say, some specific
technology that a company'sreally invested in and we think
we're going to get great resultsfrom it, and it just kind of
(34:25):
falls.
It gets a little bit lukewarm,but then we'll do a post about
maybe it's like a poll that weput out there on LinkedIn, and
then it's something maybe assimple as what do you expect it
to?
What are the top five reasonswhy people are rejecting your
(34:45):
offers?
And people will latch on tothings that you just don't think
they will.
Sometimes and I think those havebeen some of the surprising
things I think, especially withsocial, that it kind of takes a
mind of its own.
Sometimes there's definitelybeen blog posts we've written,
you know, in some regards whereI think that just all of a
(35:07):
sudden are getting huge, hugehits and tons of traffic and
it's like, wow, we neverexpected that to get that type
of traffic.
And, you know, sometimes it'sall about the topic sometimes,
and again it goes back to, Ithink, being found, especially
when you're getting at a, Ithink, something that's a little
(35:27):
bit more topical or timely.
Maybe is something that peoplelatch on to, or you're calling
out a specific type of audience.
You know you've done some postslike on millennials versus Gen
X, and that's an area with whatyou're doing is zen gig maybe as
something you might have alsosome further insights, or even
(35:49):
more insights than I do.
Yeah, sometimes you know peoplehave a strong opinion when you
start kind of calling out somedemographics of the population.
Pete Newsome (35:58):
Right, right, right, it's a dangerous path at
times to go down.
I mean, as you mentionedearlier, we're at a very
polarized culture right now andthere's you have to be conscious
of those things and it's a risk.
Reward is, I think of, we do alive stream with I'm the Gen X,
(36:21):
or, of course, but then we havea Y and Z.
It's called Gen X Y Z and youknow some of the opinions and
things we talk about, about howwe perceive things in the
workplace.
I know it's different, right,it's different.
You got to proceed with cautionat times, but, to your point,
we had a video go viral onTikTok, of all places, and we
(36:45):
put so much quality content outthere and what I believe to be
high quality content, and thiswas a video of, like you know,
two little kids and one likepush the other one over.
I mean it was like a America'sfunniest home videos type of
thing and that's what went viral, right, and it had some text
about like me at work on aMonday or something, you know,
just absurd that you'd expect tosee on TikTok.
(37:07):
But I'm like, okay, the hoursof work and the dollars and the
content we produce of such highquality, and that's the thing
that goes viral.
Okay, you know that's, but I'lltake it right.
And so that's what works onTikTok, which is which would not
work at all on LinkedIn, forexample.
So, you know, everything yousaid, of course, resonates
(37:28):
really well with me, and thattesting is you know, one of the
things that I like is thenumbers person is you can
quantify it all, right, you,there's no, there's no ambiguity
, and sales has a lot ofambiguity around it, right, why
did I not get that deal?
Well, it's subjective, right.
Why can this person not getmore?
You know, bringing morebusiness, that's very subjective
.
Marketing is not, which I love.
(37:50):
I mean, you can see what youget out of it.
You know the analytics, as youwere saying.
So I think I think it's justsuch a so many people in my
position who are your prospectsjust don't realize the power of
it and how effective it could be.
So, you know, I'm certainly abig proponent of companies using
(38:14):
marketing services more.
What would you say isecogravities, you know, really,
advantage in the market.
I mean, there's a lot ofcompetition out there, just like
in staffing.
There's a lot of organizationsthat do what you guys do.
I can give you my perspectivefrom when I met Kevin, your
partner, years ago.
Years before I met you, sit outas very professional, told me
(38:37):
what I needed to hear, even ifit wasn't what I wanted to hear,
as someone who wanted quickresults.
Kevin is one of the people asI've shared with you before we
started recording who said thisis a mountain you have to climb.
It doesn't happen overnight.
It's going to take a matter ofmonths before you start
expecting results.
Great advice, but also, youknow, as someone who's a sales
minded person, that's not what Iwanted to hear.
(38:59):
I was like I want to give you adollar a day and have you
generate two for me tomorrow.
Right, that's what I wanted.
Kevin's like that's not goingto happen and I respect and
appreciate that in a way that Icould not have back then.
Brian Jameson (39:11):
Right.
Pete Newsome (39:13):
I did, and I appreciate it then, because I've
kind of sold that way too, letme give you the bad news right,
so you can't hold it against melater.
But other than that being, youknow, upstanding and forthright
and all that what's echo ofgravity, is a real advantage in
the market.
Brian Jameson (39:28):
Yeah, so yeah, absolutely right, and there's an
agency out there probably forevery aspect of marketing.
You can go find design agencies, seo, contents, I mean you know
kind of people that focus juston the function, and then there
(39:50):
are firms out there that justfocus, you know, on staffing and
recruiting.
I think that's grown over theyears.
I look at that as probably asign that there's a demand for
it and there's a need for it,and so I think you know kind of
to use your analogy, for allships rise, I think, when
there's more players in themarket.
But what we've tried to do isreally focus on one of our key
(40:13):
pillars is on the thoughtleadership and content base.
So we've invested prettyheavily in helping our clients
tell stories, be creative in theway they tell those stories.
You know, I think that's as wego forward in this world and
we've touched a little bit onsome of the technology and tools
(40:34):
.
I mean, even two, three, fouryears ago it was much harder to
design graphics.
Now you've got tools like Canva.
That has someone that doesn'thave, didn't go to school to
learn the Adobe tools or haven'tput the time in to learn those
tools.
Now you can go on, you know, ona Canva like type of tool, and
(40:56):
create a really nicepresentation with maybe not all
of the skills that the kind oftraditional graphic designers
have.
I still think there's a needfor graphic designers because
you can't do everything now, butthere's much more of a level
playing field.
So I think creativity in howyou tell those stories is
something, as we go forward,that is going to continue to be
(41:19):
a need, and so we've tried toinvest pretty heavily in being
able to help companies with that, you know, whether it's in the
written form or that's helpingto write a script to do a video.
You know we're not videoproduction company, but you know
we like to try to be in aposition where we're helping
(41:39):
companies from a thoughtleadership perspective but at
the same time we also canprovide, you know, full service
on the marketing side.
So we've positioned ourselves askind of an outsourced firm.
So whether you've got, you know, internal staff or you don't,
you know we can plug the holesthere to provide marketing
strategies and execute on thatmarketing, and I think that's
(42:00):
been probably one of our, youknow.
Let me think about some of thedifferentiates we bring to the
table.
I would probably point to those.
You know, obviously we've gotsome experience in staffing,
recruiting, so do others, so Imean that is a differentiator to
an extent, but maybe not thefull story.
So I typically go back to youknow how we can help companies
(42:22):
tell those stories, create greatthought leadership, great
content, and then with those, inmy opinion, what we've seen.
I mean it's hard to push stuffout on social or, you know, get
SEO traffic or get leads withouthaving great content or great
thought leadership.
Pete Newsome (42:40):
Couldn't agree more.
I think such a great answer.
I didn't know how you weregoing to answer that and I'm
glad you said it the way you do.
Sorry, but it really resonatesbecause it's going to.
It's not about the prettypictures on your website, that
somebody you know so, friendKate, you'll appreciate this
(43:02):
asked me to look at his websitethe other day and he's like okay
, I'm getting ready to pick, youknow someone to hire.
And they said what I need is Ineed better graphics on my front
, my on my homepage, and needvideos.
I'm like two people a month seeyour homepage right, like you
could have.
It doesn't matter, you couldhave the, the secret code to a
(43:22):
vault with a million dollars init, and no one would ever see it
on your homepage.
So without the content, it'snot going to matter and it does
all start there, in my opinion,because it's you hope you want
to be found.
But what are they going to thinkonce they find you right?
Are they go?
Is it?
Are you going to put yourselfout there as an authority and
you know someone with expertise,as you just said, or is it
(43:46):
going to be hey, you have apretty picture that's not going
to lead you to a whole lot ofconfidence in choosing that as a
staff company, as a staffingpartner.
So I think that's such a greatapproach and and and it's the
right one for sure that I thinkyou know you guys are separated
from a lot of your competition,who just does not view it that
(44:07):
way, and I just have a lot ofrespect for the way you guys do
business.
Brian Jameson (44:14):
Yeah, we always want to make everyone look cool.
But if we can make them lookcool and, you know, get that
stuff to resonate, I thinkthat's that's kind of where the
ideal spot that you want to be,and knowing your audience right,
and I think you know you cancreate great content.
But if it's missing, missingthat mark to the audience, then
you know that that's maybemissed opportunity.
(44:36):
So, really having a goodunderstanding, like knowing your
, your we call them buyerpersonas or your target personas
and you know understanding, youknow what makes them tick and
everyone's a little bitdifferent and you know it might
seem simple on the surface butsometimes it's kind of hard to
to really get at that and peelback the layers, like what type
of content do they consume, whatdo they do on their free time?
(44:58):
And you know you can start togroup people into these personas
and really understand who theyare, because even today they're
all people, they're all humans.
They'll, you know, do the samethings that everybody else does.
They just happen to be inspecific in a specific industry
or specific buying position orthere are certain types of you
know candidate and that sort ofthing.
So, having a really crystalclear view of that and
(45:22):
understand, like maybe you needa survey, maybe you need to talk
to your clients, and I thinkthat's another thing that maybe
not everybody does, even thoughit seems maybe a bit obvious.
You may think you know, youknow the answers to what they
may say.
But sometimes just doing asimple actually like hey, find
your top five clients and likehey, mind if I just pick your
(45:45):
brain for 10 to 15 minutes toyou know, ask them like why do
you choose us over?
You know the other fivecompanies that you maybe can
work with, and you might besurprised at some of the answers
that you get and that can begood ingredients to go and
create more stuff and find morepeople like that.
Pete Newsome (46:00):
Yeah, it sounds simple when you say it, and, but
it's to apply that effort andto put structure around.
It is so complex for a staffingcompany or most businesses
anyway small businesses, mediumbusinesses, big businesses to
stop what you're doing and toput that kind of effort in place
, right, or even even somethinglike a content calendar, which
(46:22):
you mentioned earlier.
It's so necessary, right, buthow many companies can do that
on their own?
So I think they need most of usreally need a third party to
come in and oversee that effortand to know what order things
should be in, what steps need tobe taken.
It's not intuitive, it's not, Imean it.
(46:42):
It may even be intuitive tosome degree, it may be easy to
comprehend, but to do it youalmost need someone from the
outside to hold you accountable,I think, to ask those questions
, to put those steps in place, Ijust I think you know a third
party is very much needed.
Brian Jameson (47:01):
Yeah, I love the analogy of I don't know.
I always played sports growingup and I just love the analogies
to.
You know, running a business,like a sports team, like every
team, has a coach for a reason,and if you look at the NFL these
days, they've got a coach forevery position, right.
So you know there's a reason.
Even the best of the best,they've got someone there to
(47:24):
help guide them.
So, whether that's someone youhave internally or whether
that's you know an external, youknow third party resource, they
can help you as a serverpurpose and hold you accountable
, like you just said.
I mean, sometimes we're our ownworst enemies.
Like you know, I need to go tothe gym today, but you know I go
there and I don't know what todo.
(47:44):
So you know I go to a gym wherethey tell me what to do.
That's right.
Pete Newsome (47:48):
Yeah, I mean knowing what to do and actually
doing it very, very differentthings.
I don't know if you're watchingHard Knocks right now, you know
with the Jets.
Brian Jameson (47:55):
I think that happened yeah.
Pete Newsome (47:57):
That you know.
I didn't know the story ofAaron Rodgers and the this coach
who he bonded with in Green Bay, who came who's now with the
Jets, who had a Tim Vary headcoaching stand elsewhere right,
that just hearing Aaron Rodgerstalk about Aaron Rodgers is the
best in the game right now andthere's just to watch him.
I've just fascinated by gettingto see him up close.
(48:20):
How great he is, but he stillhas a coach, right, he still
needs a coach and relies on acoach.
So that's such a that really ismeaningful to me right now
because I just watched episodethree last night.
Brian Jameson (48:31):
Yeah, it's on my.
It's next time I've watched thefirst two.
I, I, I, I didn't give intothat stuff all day.
I think there's great, greatanalogies between the sports
teams and I think also thecompetitiveness.
That might be a topic foranother podcast.
Pete Newsome (48:47):
Well, I'll get you back on it.
I promised I told you 30minutes worth 48.
So last question predictionsfor the future.
You mentioned AI, so now I'mgoing to you know we'll bring
that up.
How could we not?
What?
What do you see?
What you know?
Crystal ball, what's?
What's going to be differentfive years from now?
Biggest change that AI is goingto bring about?
Brian Jameson (49:04):
Oh, man, I I.
Pete Newsome (49:07):
I know you didn't know, I didn't prepare yourself,
I knew this, this one better,right?
Brian Jameson (49:10):
I mean, if I guess, if I had a crystal ball,
I probably would be maybe in adifferent spot than I am today.
But if I were to predict thefuture, I mean, I definitely
think.
You know, as we've kind oftalked, you know, casually, I
think AI will certainly play arole, no question.
You know, the biggest change toyou know, if you think about
(49:31):
technology and technology andmarketing specifically, that has
happened since, in my opinion,since Google.
So I don't see I see it as atool.
I don't see it.
You know, maybe it'll replacesome, you know, functions, but I
don't think you're going to seemarketing people go away.
I don't think you're going tosee recruiters and sales people
(49:51):
going away or the need for astaffing firm go away.
You know it's just going to.
It's going to be another tooland the people that embrace it
and find the ways to make it asynergy for what they do.
Well, I think we'll reap therewards of it.
You know it's going to.
I think it reduces a lot of timespent in a lot of areas,
(50:14):
whether, even if you're a writer, you know, I don't, you know
we're not using AI to go writeblog posts for clients or
anything like that.
But we're writing stuff andwe're taking the work that we're
doing and we're using that toolto make it better or to do to
do more work, to do it to bemore productive.
And I think maybe that's, youknow, if you read some of the
(50:36):
news out there and just you hearsome of the top leaders and
some of these companies, they'retalking about productivity a
lot and being more productivewith what you've got, and I
think that's probably to sum itup.
I think people, you knowproductivity is, is, is poised
to be, you know, be able to domore with less using some of
(50:58):
these technologies like AI.
You know this automation that'sout there now, which is huge
and that's kind of, you know,before AI can happen, automation
was a huge or it still is ahuge topic of conversation out
there.
So I don't I see that stuff onlygrowing and becoming more
intertwined.
But I still think there's, youknow, there's still going to be
(51:22):
the need to, to still engagewith people and tell those
stories.
And now, you know, in thehistory of time, that's, you
know, kind of go back to.
You know all the books andthings that have been written
out there.
They're out there for reason,telling those different stories,
and I just I don't see thatgoing away.
(51:43):
You know, and maybe we'll seelike AI movies in the future.
I don't, I don't know.
Pete Newsome (51:47):
But I don't think you will know that's a oh no
right.
Brian Jameson (51:51):
Exactly, that'll be the yeah.
Will we know?
Will we not know?
I don't know.
But.
Pete Newsome (51:55):
No, I, no, you're I, we, nobody has that crystal
ball, right?
That's an unfair question.
So thanks for answering itanyway.
I wish we did.
But we, we know that it's hereto stay and I, you know, I think
of it the same way, right, it's.
It's going to allow us to bebetter at what we do, go faster
(52:17):
and more thorough, do new things, more with less.
That hasn't changed, I mean,since you know I, you're younger
than me, but since I've got outof school, that was that, was
it do more with less.
And of course that's going tocontinue.
That's human evolution and it'sgoing to be a fun ride, that's
for sure.
So I'll get you back on.
(52:37):
We'll talk about personas.
Maybe next time We'll talkabout technology, because
there's so many different areaswe could go down.
But thank you for for providingsuch a good overview today and
introducing, you know, echogravity to my listeners.
I think anyone who'sconsidering hiring a marketing
firm, and if you haven'tventured into that world, you're
(53:00):
, you're behind the curve, butit's not too late to catch up,
that's for sure.
There's so much opportunitythat I hope you give Brian a
call so we'll put all yourcontact info in our show notes,
Brian, and thanks for thanks forall your time today.
It's been great.
Brian Jameson (53:15):
Thank you, Pete.
I appreciate it, Love whatyou're doing out there and, yeah
, I think you're kind of atestament to a lot of stuff.
I was saying just getting outthere and putting bringing this
stuff to the forefront.
So love what you guys are doingand wish you guys all the
success in the world.
Pete Newsome (53:30):
Thanks, thanks so much.
Yeah, no one, no one wasstarting from scratch more than
me.
Brian Jameson (53:33):
That that we've proven, I think, pretty well, so
so I appreciate that, yeah, andit's awesome to share that
stuff out there.
Pete Newsome (53:40):
So all right everyone.
Thank you for listening.
Brian, thank you again and havea great rest of the day.
Brian Jameson (53:46):
Thank you.
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and this isyour source for all things
hiring, staffing and recruiting.
Really excited to have aspecial guest on today Brian
Jameson from Echo Gravity.
Brian, how are you today?
Brian Jameson (00:13):
Doing great Pete.
I really appreciate you havingme on here Just excited to share
whatever insights I can.
Pete Newsome (00:21):
Wonderful.
Let's talk a little bit aboutEcho Gravity before we get into
some deeper stuff.
Your co-founder, partner ofEcho Gravity, tell us a little
bit about the mission you guysare on.
Brian Jameson (00:33):
Yeah, so full transparency I used to be and I
think I've shared this with youaside I was actually recruited
by my business partner to workin staffing back in 2004,.
Worked in staffing for a fewyears, then I moved on to
selling marketing services for afew years.
I love sales, love marketing,but loved marketing so much I
(00:57):
was like, all right, well,what's my transition?
To getting into a marketingrole?
I actually went back and didthe MBA route so wanted to just
get that under my belt to see ifthat could catapult me into a
marketing role within a company.
To be honest, when I went backto school, I probably worked for
(01:20):
a bigger company and get intosome type of marketing
leadership program and that sortof thing.
But, as it would have it, itwas around 2008, 2009, which we
all know what happened aroundthose times.
So the job prospects were notscientific and actually
reconnected with my businesspartner at the time, kevin
O'Brien.
(01:41):
He was working for a softwarecompany at the time as their
chief operating officer and theyneeded marketing help.
So I basically interned withthem and started to get into
marketing and, yeah, found thisbook called Inbound Marketing.
It was written by the guys atHubSpot and that was around the
(02:03):
time they started their softwarecompany.
Most people know HubSpot andnot.
At the time they were all aboutmarketing automation and
content generation, how you canpush stuff out there and drive
basically traffic back to yourwebsite and create leads and
that sort of thing.
They've turned since into moreof a full blown kind of CRM
(02:24):
solution and some other things,but just went in all in on that.
I just thought it was like thegreatest thing and so we started
implementing those same tacticsat the software company,
creating a lot of contents,getting on social media, which
was kind of in the nascentstages at Facebook, linkedin and
(02:45):
some of the other ones and juststarted pushing that stuff out
there, doing different types ofcampaigns and just thought,
really cool results from a leadgen perspective, all B2B type
stuff.
And after a couple of years andagain the economy was not great
around that time in 2000, Ithink, 2011.
(03:06):
So after school I went andworked full time for them around
2011, 2012.
It probably wasn't great and mythen boss and current business
partner there might be a goodopportunity to bring marketing
to the staffing space, which wealso know really well, and we
kind of share the samephilosophy that it's marketing
(03:28):
within staffing at the time andI would still argue to this day
is a bit underserved andunderinvested.
And so that's what spawnedEchogravity.
We kind of went out in 2011,just said, just he and I and
said, hey, we'll kind of go outthere and be this like
outsourced marketing duo and atthe time we were writing blog
(03:51):
posts, we were writing socialmedia, posting stuff, running.
It's kind of soup to nuts, justhe and I doing it.
And slowly it grew and hestarts to gain some traction.
And then we added some more,much more capable team members
that were actually writers andwere savvy on social media.
And that's really what startedour journey with Echogravity.
(04:16):
And since then we've grownorganically over that time and
currently our 15, 16 people andservice 95% of our client bases
in the staffing and recruitingspace.
Pete Newsome (04:32):
I love your story.
You were getting started aboutthe same time.
I was starting Four CornerResources and, as you know, I
didn't do any marketing for 13years and if I had a dollar for
every time, I've kicked myselffor not having a different
perspective and approach backthen.
But I didn't know what I didn'tknow.
(04:52):
I, like you, I was asalesperson.
Marketing meant nothing to meback then and I think about it
so often and say what a massivemissed opportunity.
So what do you think it is withthe staffing industry?
I think about this a lot.
I'm sure you've put even morethought into it.
(05:12):
Why do you think the staffingindustry has not embraced the
digital world like so many otherindustries have?
Brian Jameson (05:20):
Yeah, I think it's.
I mean my personal opinion.
I think it's a combination ofjust that sales mindset and that
producer mindset is kind of theold school mentality which I
think a lot of firms back in theday would promote, which is,
hey, you got to smile and dial,you got to hit your numbers, you
got to go on so many meetingsand take so many people out to
(05:43):
lunch, and that's the way you'regoing to get requirements and
that's the way you're going tobuild relationships.
And I still think it's true.
I mean, you still need to buildrelationships and absolutely
there needs to be a sales andproducer recruiting presence out
there to foster thoserelationships.
But I think that's part of it.
It's like you know thismentality that I can kind of go
out there and do it, and I thinkthat you know it's kind of been
(06:06):
delivered from you knowleadership over you know kind of
the old again old schoolmentality is, you know, kind of
get out there, build yourrelationships and go do it where
you know so they've underinvested in marketing or they've
looked at marketing as, hey,you know, create a brochure or
you know, have something toleave on someone's desk or leave
(06:27):
behind in the folder and youknow I think we both agree like
those things are kind of datedand you know, in this digital
world that we live in and youknow, just being a little bit
behind the curve and being ableto push out stuff over digital
formats and having people beable to find you and learn about
(06:47):
your business and learn aboutissues that you're solving that
may be topical and, you know, ina less salesy type of way,
instead of just smiling anddialing, it's fostering a
relationship over time, talkingabout topics that might be pain
points or things that you'rejust posing the questions out
(07:07):
there, posing the topics andhaving an opinion, having
thought leadership, position andan idea on it and letting
prospects and people kind oflatch on to those as you go.
And I think, over time, Idefinitely feel like the
sentiment has grown andembracing marketing more,
whereas before it might havebeen like the big guys, like
(07:28):
have a marketing team to dothose things, so that starting
to see definitely a lot moresmall, medium sized firms
starting to embrace thatmentality.
I mean you look at social mediaand the prevalence, especially
LinkedIn and this industry Ithink that it has, and then you
can kind of see the way that,indeed, and some others, have
really forced people into themarketplace to focus on digital,
(07:51):
and you kind of need to bethere to some degree right Now
to be able to engage with people.
Pete Newsome (07:57):
I think you have to be there for sure, and
companies still occasionally askfor a brochure.
We were on a webinar together acouple of weeks back that's
when I invited you to join mehere because we had so many
great things to talk about then,and the subject of brochures
came up, and I just think it'sso funny where today it still
(08:18):
happens, where prospects willsay can you send me a brochure?
And I tell them, I tell them,like, get out of here.
The brochure lives on ourwebsite, right, which is so much
more thorough and so much moreinformation you could ever have
in a pamphlet of any kind.
But yet that mentality stillexists, and as long as we give
(08:41):
into it, right, it's going tostay, and so part of me thanks.
Well, who am I to tell companiesnot to do what they've always
done?
Because I think I have anadvantage over them, right.
But on the other hand, I don'tmind talking about it because I
think the rising tide raises allboats, right.
(09:02):
And so our industry is so wellpoised to be thought leaders,
and I don't think anyone's in abetter position to weigh in on
hiring practices, recruitingpractices, staffing practices,
than our industry, my industry,right, that you support, but yet
we're generally not thoughtleaders.
(09:22):
We're generally thought of asjust salespeople trying to sell
bodies right, which is howindustry used to be referred to
as body shops.
That's not at all the caseanymore.
So I mean, do you think, I meanfrom the time you guys started
in business, so 2008 to now, howmuch evolution have you seen?
(09:43):
Because I have to tell you Ihaven't seen that much.
Brian Jameson (09:47):
Yeah, that's a fair point.
I think it kind of goes back tohow you said it and it's kind
of spent like 13 years going atit with that same mentality and
it takes, I think, time torealize that you actually have a
story to tell.
You've got a history there,you've got all that experience,
(10:07):
you've got the scars and thestories to tell and the knock is
in the belt.
And I think a lot of peoplemaybe it's human nature that
people are just like well, Idon't really have anything
that's interesting to say, orI'm not good on social media or
I'm not a good writer.
But I think that's also part ofthe opportunity of being
vulnerable out there and beingreal and authentic.
(10:28):
Because it's like to your pointabout the brochures.
That's like a glossy thing andit's talking about how typically
right, so typically how greatwe are and all the good things
that we can do.
Which brochures that may havetheir purpose and, depending on
your audience and what you'redoing, if you're a firm that
goes to recruiting fairs andyou're meeting with people in
(10:52):
person, maybe there is anopportunity for that.
But I think it does boil downto just sharing that story and
kind of being not apologizingfor anything and just putting
yourself out there, and I thinkthere's just still that
hesitancy sometimes for firms todo that, and I guess that's
(11:14):
where also we come into play andwe'd like to try to be the
people that help those companiesthat maybe aren't quite sure
how to get started or aren'tsure how to tell that story, or
it's all sitting up in theirhead and it's like, well, I
don't know how to articulatethis.
Well, that's where a firm likeus or others agencies can really
help to bring that stuff tofruition in a creative way or
(11:37):
tell that story in your voice,even though maybe it may not be
easy for that person to do it,or that salesperson, that
recruiter or whoever that may be.
So I think it's just one ofthose things that's continued
growing, just like social mediain the early days, and maybe
even I know we'll talk about AIprobably here but people are
(11:58):
like I don't want to get into AIyet, but it's kind of that
early adopter phase, I think, inthat regard, whereas maybe
thought leadership and contentand social media and something
of that things people arerealizing they kind of, I think,
need to be there.
It's just a matter I think of.
To what extent are they puttingthemselves out there and
putting content out there tohelp market themselves?
(12:18):
I mean, the personal brand isanother aspect to this where
every salesperson will probablytell you a successful one.
You're not just selling thecompany, you're selling yourself
, because in this world that welive in and the relationship
matters when something goeswrong, they want to be able to
rely on someone that's going tohave their back.
So, working on not just tellingthe story of the company or the
(12:43):
firm that you work for, buttelling your own stories and
your own unique ways and how youcan help your customers with
those needs and sharing thosesuccess stories.
Hey, I've been in the trenches.
I can help you with thesethings and here are some ways
that we've done it in the pastand that might resonate with you
.
Pete Newsome (13:02):
It's a hard initial step to take, and I have
experienced some of these hardsteps in different aspects of
life.
Starting a business.
I thought, wow, I'm going tostep off a cliff.
And it's such a big drop untilyou take the step and you
realize it was only like a footdown.
It's like a movie where theperson goes over the ledge and
(13:23):
you're like they're gone foreverand they're only hanging on a
ledge five feet down and all aswell.
That's how it was when Istarted Four Corner and that's
how it was for me when I firststarted to venture out and share
an opinion on anything publiclyI've said this, I think
publicly before, so I'll say itagain is that I used to naively
(13:47):
say well, what am I supposed tosay on a staffing company
website?
It's five pages.
You have our contactinformation, you have our about
us, you have a home page withpictures and here's the services
we provide.
That's kind of it.
But in reality, as I wasalluding to earlier, as you've
reinforced, we're in thetrenches.
We are ground zero of howhiring happens, what works, what
(14:12):
doesn't, and so we're so wellequipped as an industry to share
it.
But it doesn't happen right.
So we know that.
So what can be done about that,I think, is the next logical
thing to talk about.
So when companies come to you,is there any kind of consistent
theme that you see of problemsthat businesses staffing
(14:32):
companies are looking to solveor hoping marketing will solve
for them?
Brian Jameson (14:37):
Yeah, I think that's a great question, I think
a very thought provoking one.
I think there typically are theobvious ones right, we need
more for many years, right Upuntil, I would say, 2023.
And recently it was like thelast three years hey, we need
candidates, we need to accessmore people, we need to build
(14:59):
that candidate pipeline Numberone it's kind of like the high
level Number two we need clients, we need to build that pipeline
.
So I think that's where maybethe challenge sometimes exists
is how do you get from this verybottom of the funnel need and
we're talking about marketing,which is very top of the funnel
(15:21):
in building awareness andbuilding recognition and
engagement which sometimes does,I think, requires some
education in most cases.
I mean, definitely, some clientscome to us and they know
exactly what they need and wekind of just get right into
(15:41):
discussing how the relationshipcan work and the types of things
that we can do.
But sometimes there is thisconversation around well, let's
just talk about what marketinglooks like for a stacking
recruiting firm, becauseultimately that's the goal is to
put more candidates intopositions that you've got, gain
(16:01):
more clients, grow the business.
So oftentimes I don't thinkit's like hey, I need to build
my brand awareness or I need tobuild, I need to engage more
prospects over this channel orthat channel.
Sometimes they'll say, hey, Iwant to.
You know a comment whenactually able to get us like hey
(16:24):
, I want to be.
You know, number one on Googleis also a big one that we'll
kind of get.
Snap your fingers.
Pete Newsome (16:30):
You can make that happen next week, can't you?
Brian Jameson (16:33):
Yeah, which is you know, and then that's a good
conversation to have, becausethen we can talk about specifics
, about, okay, well, that's agood goal to have, right, but it
is a journey that you've got totake in order to do those
things.
And you're competing.
You know the 20 person, 30person firm that's competing
against the 10,000 person firm.
Just by the sheer volume andsize of those companies, you
(16:57):
know you're not gonna be able tocompete to some degree on
Google with that.
So it's like you need todevelop strategies to come in
from other angles and reallyfind out.
You know how you want to engageand differentiate there so that
you can be found.
Pete Newsome (17:14):
I think it's, and I want to hear your opinion on
this because you're the expertbut my you know.
I've formed an opinion from myown experiences over the past
five years as I've entered intothis world, and it's almost like
the more I learn, the more Irealize I don't know.
So it started with me.
As I confessed to you earlier,I shouldn't repeat all this live
because it just makes me lookso terrible but that I thought
(17:37):
oh, email marketing, right, likethat's it.
I just need to do emailmarketing and it will solve all
my problems, even though mywebsite was five ugly pages,
right Disregard that.
I just need to send emailsconsistently and on a cadence
and all will be well.
So clearly, that's not it.
I had to establish thatpresence and commit to a
strategy.
But as I've progressed, I'velearned my strategy was based
(18:02):
around SEO to be found on Google, right Keywords and content all
the things that will lead tohaving your site show up on the
front page, being ranked.
But as time goes on, I'verealized how intimate strategies
can be for all the differentchannels that are out there and
(18:24):
I have not conquered.
I haven't conquered any of them, but I haven't even made
inroads to many of them, likeReddit, for example, or Quora.
I'm convinced you could build anentire business around
marketing correctly on socialchannels like those right.
Linkedin is huge in our space.
I don't think we've taken verygood advantage of LinkedIn.
(18:45):
I'm looking to change that inthe near future.
So I think there's a hugeintimidation factor coming in.
I certainly was intimidatedbecause I thought there's so
much to know and I don't knowany of it.
But what do you think is thebiggest barrier that staffing
companies need to overcome toenter into the space and commit
(19:05):
to marketing seriously?
Commit to it.
Brian Jameson (19:09):
I think number one is I think we kind of
touched on it Like it's not asnap your fingers and okay, I
hired this firm, they're gonnahelp me from one day to the next
, it's definitely.
And if you think about theother way around, like, are you
gonna hire internal staff tohelp?
And when you bring on somebodyinternally, there's typically a
(19:32):
runway to bring them up to speedand, just like any salesperson
to start producing or anyrecruiter to start producing, it
takes time.
So I think that's one of themaybe the challenges and, I
don't know, maybe misconceptionsthat I don't wanna paint a
broad brush stroke on that.
But I think that is definitelyone of the things like having
(19:54):
that mindset that it's not gonnahappen overnight.
It is a marathon, it's not asprint, which is something that
we use that terminology a lotwith clients.
And, to your point, like thereare so many different things.
So it's like, if you are and weservice small to medium sized
(20:15):
businesses, for the most part Iwould say 95% of the clients we
service are under a hundredmillion in revenue, so the
budget is not gonna be that ofand the major billion dollar
companies that are out therewhere they can kind of throw
resources at like, oh, let'sjust test and see what happens
(20:35):
on Cora or Reddit or some ofthese other channels that maybe
aren't the mainstream marketingchannels that you can pursue.
So I think having a strongunderstanding on how, what
dollars you wanna put indifferent areas and certainly an
expert or a resource that youhire or a firm that you work
(20:56):
with can help you identify whatsome of those things are and
putting your eggs in that basket.
Don't spread them all out indifferent areas, because I think
that's one.
I guess another area was likeoh, we need to do marketing.
It's like they wanna do, wewanna do all these different
things, versus like hey, let'sjust stay focused in this area,
(21:18):
whether that's hey, let's justfocus on LinkedIn or let's focus
on creating more content sothat we've got stuff to share on
social platforms like LinkedIn,or to help our search profile
or SEO performance, and sothat's probably the things that
I would point to.
I guess, in some of thechallenges and kind of like the
(21:39):
barriers maybe, so to speak, isjust like not knowing where the
focus should be and like justhaving a simple strategy that
doesn't need to be a robust.
It's like, hey, we wanna getthree pages to rank in the top
five on Google.
Let's start there.
Start simple and you can builda plan around some simple
(22:02):
strategies like that, versustrying to maybe boil the ocean
with your first go around orentering into the marketing
world and trying to market yourstaffing firm.
Pete Newsome (22:13):
I'm glad you clarified that because, trust me
, I was not suggesting youshould go after all these
channels.
The opposite right, becauseeach of them are so need their
own strategy.
If you take something likeYouTube, the big influencers
there seems easy, right, Seemslike they just put up videos,
(22:33):
but if you listen to thosewho've achieved great success
there, it's a science.
These people are tacticianswith it.
They study every nuance thatgoes into, whether it's the
content, title, the imagesassociated with it, what time
they post.
I mean, there's so much, andyou mentioned not boiling the
(22:56):
ocean, right?
I think that's a great way toput it and you don't need to do
that.
That's the good news, but youdo need to get in the game.
I say that, like anytime I starttalking about this, some of my
team members will be like, whydo you encourage others to do it
?
Because there's so much room,there's so much opportunity in
our industry and I think, ourindustry as a whole.
(23:18):
Like my self-serving reason fordoing it is that I think we
lack credibility sometimes andwe're seen as an adversary to HR
, for example, which should notbe.
We should be their biggest allyBecause, once again, we have
the knowledge.
So I think there's so much roomfor everyone to do better and
(23:42):
to improve our industryperception, and what you said
about being patient and needingtime.
We're in a relationship-basedbusiness most of us are, anyway
and you don't buildrelationships in a matter of a
day or two, so why would youexpect your online presence to
thrive that way?
(24:02):
Right, the best customers anyof us typically have are those
that were the hardest to getinto, because we had to burn it
and it's the same thing right.
If success came easily, thebarrier to entry would be really
low, and that would be anentirely different situation.
So I'm a big believer thatanything worth having is
probably worth putting in timeand effort to achieve, and for
(24:25):
me, marketing is certainly that.
Now I do want to ask you aboutbranding.
One of the big changes thatI've seen over just recently,
over the past couple of years,is personal branding becoming so
prevalent.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Because I see, once again, likeeverything else, some people
(24:46):
are doing it really, really welland reaping the rewards, but
most aren't.
I mean, where do you think thetrajectory of that is?
Brian Jameson (24:53):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
I think, and it aligns, I think, with the whole concept around
thought leadership, where beforemaybe it's like hey, I'm going
to post something on social andif you think about getting
outside of staffing, recruiting,just the whole influencer
marketing space, right, I mean,there's YouTubers out there that
(25:16):
are making millions andmillions of dollars just by
posting stuff like how to unboxgifts and toys and things like
that, and so I mean, I thinkthere's an audience for almost
everything out there.
Right, if you think about itinstead of you know, back in the
day maybe it was hey, I'm inthe Chicago market and I've got
(25:37):
this set of companies that I'mgoing to go after.
Well, now it's a little bitmore of a level playing for
field.
You can kind of go afteranybody, and so if you've got
something you're passionateabout and you've got a story to
tell and you're willing to putit out there, you know you may
be resonating with someonethat's halfway around the
(25:57):
country or on the other side.
You know, on the East Coast, onthe West Coast, and I think
that all plays into it.
I think you know with personalbranding and, admittedly, I
think it's an area, like youknow, I haven't really explored
it much, to be completely honest, for my own, for our own stuff,
but we've helped some companiesand some people, some clients,
(26:20):
with that and I think it justboils down to you know, if
you're passionate aboutsomething and you want to go
into it and you want to share itand put yourself out there,
then people are going toresonate with it.
So, but if you do it from aposition of like, hey, I just
want to get the rewards out ofyou know, because I've seen
(26:41):
these other people doing it andjust put stuff out there in a
non authentic way, I think it'sreally easy for people to, you
know, kind of tune out to thator just kind of see it as more
noise.
But I do definitely seepersonal branding as another
element.
Maybe, you know, peeling backlayers of marketing onion.
You know, if you think about itlike the company brand and you
(27:04):
know the people within it, andthen you've got opportunities to
go a level deeper and, hey,this is my personal brand, this
is what I'm going to be aboutand this is what I'm going to
talk about and people can getattracted to it or not, and I
think the pros outweigh the cons.
You know people are not goingto be like, oh, I don't want to
work with this person becausethey, they have a position on
(27:28):
something like this.
As long as you kind of stay awayfrom like the really polarizing
stuff which you know there'splenty of that out there.
But if you just keep it, youknow, purely focused on you,
know how you, how you're helpingpeople or you know what you're
doing.
You know we have a client thatis focused on.
You know other like parentsthat are out there that are in
(27:50):
business and not just in theirstaffing business and it's not
necessarily, you know most ofit's not even really about
staffing, but it does help herpush, put her her brand out
there in a way that A lot ofother people maybe aren't
talking about that stuff and itcan build some connections and
build a following and it's likeoh, by the way, this is how I
(28:12):
help companies and this is whatI do as part of my business and
that does have some benefits inthe long run.
Pete Newsome (28:22):
I couldn't agree more with that, and even though
it seems like staffing is pushedtowards commoditization a lot,
we see vendor management systemsand that sort of thing trying
to take the personalization outof it.
But my perspective is that weas individual staffing companies
are all so unique in the way wedo things, and who is a good
(28:45):
fit for four-corner resources isnot going to be a good fit
necessarily for the company downthe street and vice versa.
And that's okay.
Right, because it's a veryintimate thing, I mean that's.
I believe in that fully.
Is that nothing's more personalthan recruiting and hiring?
Right, Because these are thepeople you spend your waking
hours with.
So when you start working withsomeone, I mean I would imagine
(29:09):
part of your job is to have todraw that out.
Right?
Just kind of walk through highlevel of if once someone engages
in ecogravity I know my peersout there are like I was five
years ago and that is to say,largely clueless, right?
Maybe they weren't as cluelessas me, but I know a lot of them
are more, even more right, Iknow that.
And you're starting off.
(29:30):
Just kind of walk through thatprocess from introduction to
starting to put your content outthere.
How does that work?
Brian Jameson (29:39):
Yeah, I think it starts with just getting a good
pulse check, or audit, if youwill Like.
Okay, where are we at today?
Is there anything?
Is there a track record thathas been successful, anything?
Sometimes we work with clientsthat they have been dabbling in
some stuff and they've found athread and they're pulling on it
and it's working out well.
So we try to take inventory ofall of those things that are
(30:05):
already working.
So we don't want to.
A good example is like with awebsite, right, or the content
that's been out there andthey've already got really good
search rankings.
So we don't want to come in andsay, hey, let's do something,
so propose something that'sgoing to sabotage that or have
(30:26):
an unintended consequence isprobably a better way to put it
for that.
So it's really aboutcapitalizing on what's been
going well and then finding thegaps.
I think it's probably the firstthing that we're looking at.
So it's definitely like anaudit phase and then from there
it becomes a let's build out aroadmap that's going to focus in
(30:48):
on filling those gaps and thencapitalizing on the good stuff.
Looking at the budget, right, Imean budget does come into play
.
So how many resources can weput out what's the level of
effort that needs to go into itand really trying to focus in on
those things.
And, again, trying to bespecific.
I mean, typically we're notgoing to get hired to do
(31:08):
everything under the sun, sowe're going to try to pick our
battles, so to speak, and reallyfocus in on those things.
And that might just be hey,let's get a really strong.
You've got this great, greatbrand, you've got a great
personal brand out there,because you've got all this
history, you've got these, thesecontexts and you've got stories
to tell.
(31:29):
So let's have a strategy wherewe're going to share those and
put together a content calendar.
You know calendar, the roadmapis a big piece to it.
And then, I think, the executionpart, like sometimes a lot of
what we do is holding everybodyaccountable to moving stuff
forward.
It's easy to talk about ideas,I think, and everyone has ideas,
(31:53):
but it's like how do we bringthose to fruition?
And having those conversationslike and we'll propose ideas.
Maybe they're not all the greatideas, but let's pick and
choose the ones that we want totry to pursue and test it.
I like to say marketing is alot of testing, and especially
for somebody that hasn't done alot of marketing already.
You don't know what's probablygoing to work and what's not.
(32:16):
So sometimes it's a matter oflike, let's just test this out.
You know, maybe it's A Btesting to some regard, but
really it's like let's seewhat's what's going to stick and
what's not, and you know, okay,we learn as we go.
Let's throw out the stuffthat's not working, let's keep
improving on the stuff wherewe're starting to see some
(32:36):
traction, and then focus in onthat and then refine.
I think is kind of like as wemove further down that life
cycle is it's a lot of refining.
Looking at some of the metricsof what we're seeing, I mean in
the digital world you canmeasure pretty much everything
how much time somebody spends ona page, how much I mean you
name it right and you probablyknow as good as anybody and even
(33:00):
the staffing metrics right.
All the applicants that come inon the interviews and the
submissions fill rates and thatsort of thing.
So the analytics become a hugetool.
There's so many tools out thereright now that can help you in
marketing and they all measuresome aspect, to the point where
maybe you can drown some of theanalytics out there and also
(33:24):
that I guess becomes anotheraspect to this is focusing on,
like the KPIs or the key metricsthat you really want to focus
in on, that you feel likedriving that performance.
Pete Newsome (33:34):
Yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking of some
things that I expected to workreally well that did not, and
some other things that we didthat were very much a pleasant
surprise, and we would doubledown on those things and keep
our foot on the gas.
Can you think of any stories orexamples that you could share
about something that just was abig win or a surprise, that so a
(33:58):
real success story that youdidn't necessarily expect to see
?
Brian Jameson (34:02):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I would relate to
that tremendously.
I think there's been stuffwhere like, hey, let's put
together an e-book on some,let's say, some specific
technology that a company'sreally invested in and we think
we're going to get great resultsfrom it, and it just kind of
(34:25):
falls.
It gets a little bit lukewarm,but then we'll do a post about
maybe it's like a poll that weput out there on LinkedIn, and
then it's something maybe assimple as what do you expect it
to?
What are the top five reasonswhy people are rejecting your
(34:45):
offers?
And people will latch on tothings that you just don't think
they will.
Sometimes and I think those havebeen some of the surprising
things I think, especially withsocial, that it kind of takes a
mind of its own.
Sometimes there's definitelybeen blog posts we've written,
you know, in some regards whereI think that just all of a
(35:07):
sudden are getting huge, hugehits and tons of traffic and
it's like, wow, we neverexpected that to get that type
of traffic.
And, you know, sometimes it'sall about the topic sometimes,
and again it goes back to, Ithink, being found, especially
when you're getting at a, Ithink, something that's a little
(35:27):
bit more topical or timely.
Maybe is something that peoplelatch on to, or you're calling
out a specific type of audience.
You know you've done some postslike on millennials versus Gen
X, and that's an area with whatyou're doing is zen gig maybe as
something you might have alsosome further insights, or even
(35:49):
more insights than I do.
Yeah, sometimes you know peoplehave a strong opinion when you
start kind of calling out somedemographics of the population.
Pete Newsome (35:58):
Right, right, right, it's a dangerous path at
times to go down.
I mean, as you mentionedearlier, we're at a very
polarized culture right now andthere's you have to be conscious
of those things and it's a risk.
Reward is, I think of, we do alive stream with I'm the Gen X,
(36:21):
or, of course, but then we havea Y and Z.
It's called Gen X Y Z and youknow some of the opinions and
things we talk about, about howwe perceive things in the
workplace.
I know it's different, right,it's different.
You got to proceed with cautionat times, but, to your point,
we had a video go viral onTikTok, of all places, and we
(36:45):
put so much quality content outthere and what I believe to be
high quality content, and thiswas a video of, like you know,
two little kids and one likepush the other one over.
I mean it was like a America'sfunniest home videos type of
thing and that's what went viral, right, and it had some text
about like me at work on aMonday or something, you know,
just absurd that you'd expect tosee on TikTok.
(37:07):
But I'm like, okay, the hoursof work and the dollars and the
content we produce of such highquality, and that's the thing
that goes viral.
Okay, you know that's, but I'lltake it right.
And so that's what works onTikTok, which is which would not
work at all on LinkedIn, forexample.
So, you know, everything yousaid, of course, resonates
(37:28):
really well with me, and thattesting is you know, one of the
things that I like is thenumbers person is you can
quantify it all, right, you,there's no, there's no ambiguity
, and sales has a lot ofambiguity around it, right, why
did I not get that deal?
Well, it's subjective, right.
Why can this person not getmore?
You know, bringing morebusiness, that's very subjective
.
Marketing is not, which I love.
(37:50):
I mean, you can see what youget out of it.
You know the analytics, as youwere saying.
So I think I think it's justsuch a so many people in my
position who are your prospectsjust don't realize the power of
it and how effective it could be.
So, you know, I'm certainly abig proponent of companies using
(38:14):
marketing services more.
What would you say isecogravities, you know, really,
advantage in the market.
I mean, there's a lot ofcompetition out there, just like
in staffing.
There's a lot of organizationsthat do what you guys do.
I can give you my perspectivefrom when I met Kevin, your
partner, years ago.
Years before I met you, sit outas very professional, told me
(38:37):
what I needed to hear, even ifit wasn't what I wanted to hear,
as someone who wanted quickresults.
Kevin is one of the people asI've shared with you before we
started recording who said thisis a mountain you have to climb.
It doesn't happen overnight.
It's going to take a matter ofmonths before you start
expecting results.
Great advice, but also, youknow, as someone who's a sales
minded person, that's not what Iwanted to hear.
(38:59):
I was like I want to give you adollar a day and have you
generate two for me tomorrow.
Right, that's what I wanted.
Kevin's like that's not goingto happen and I respect and
appreciate that in a way that Icould not have back then.
Brian Jameson (39:11):
Right.
Pete Newsome (39:13):
I did, and I appreciate it then, because I've
kind of sold that way too, letme give you the bad news right,
so you can't hold it against melater.
But other than that being, youknow, upstanding and forthright
and all that what's echo ofgravity, is a real advantage in
the market.
Brian Jameson (39:28):
Yeah, so yeah, absolutely right, and there's an
agency out there probably forevery aspect of marketing.
You can go find design agencies, seo, contents, I mean you know
kind of people that focus juston the function, and then there
(39:50):
are firms out there that justfocus, you know, on staffing and
recruiting.
I think that's grown over theyears.
I look at that as probably asign that there's a demand for
it and there's a need for it,and so I think you know kind of
to use your analogy, for allships rise, I think, when
there's more players in themarket.
But what we've tried to do isreally focus on one of our key
(40:13):
pillars is on the thoughtleadership and content base.
So we've invested prettyheavily in helping our clients
tell stories, be creative in theway they tell those stories.
You know, I think that's as wego forward in this world and
we've touched a little bit onsome of the technology and tools
(40:34):
.
I mean, even two, three, fouryears ago it was much harder to
design graphics.
Now you've got tools like Canva.
That has someone that doesn'thave, didn't go to school to
learn the Adobe tools or haven'tput the time in to learn those
tools.
Now you can go on, you know, ona Canva like type of tool, and
(40:56):
create a really nicepresentation with maybe not all
of the skills that the kind oftraditional graphic designers
have.
I still think there's a needfor graphic designers because
you can't do everything now, butthere's much more of a level
playing field.
So I think creativity in howyou tell those stories is
something, as we go forward,that is going to continue to be
(41:19):
a need, and so we've tried toinvest pretty heavily in being
able to help companies with that, you know, whether it's in the
written form or that's helpingto write a script to do a video.
You know we're not videoproduction company, but you know
we like to try to be in aposition where we're helping
(41:39):
companies from a thoughtleadership perspective but at
the same time we also canprovide, you know, full service
on the marketing side.
So we've positioned ourselves askind of an outsourced firm.
So whether you've got, you know, internal staff or you don't,
you know we can plug the holesthere to provide marketing
strategies and execute on thatmarketing, and I think that's
(42:00):
been probably one of our, youknow.
Let me think about some of thedifferentiates we bring to the
table.
I would probably point to those.
You know, obviously we've gotsome experience in staffing,
recruiting, so do others, so Imean that is a differentiator to
an extent, but maybe not thefull story.
So I typically go back to youknow how we can help companies
(42:22):
tell those stories, create greatthought leadership, great
content, and then with those, inmy opinion, what we've seen.
I mean it's hard to push stuffout on social or, you know, get
SEO traffic or get leads withouthaving great content or great
thought leadership.
Pete Newsome (42:40):
Couldn't agree more.
I think such a great answer.
I didn't know how you weregoing to answer that and I'm
glad you said it the way you do.
Sorry, but it really resonatesbecause it's going to.
It's not about the prettypictures on your website, that
somebody you know so, friendKate, you'll appreciate this
(43:02):
asked me to look at his websitethe other day and he's like okay
, I'm getting ready to pick, youknow someone to hire.
And they said what I need is Ineed better graphics on my front
, my on my homepage, and needvideos.
I'm like two people a month seeyour homepage right, like you
could have.
It doesn't matter, you couldhave the, the secret code to a
(43:22):
vault with a million dollars init, and no one would ever see it
on your homepage.
So without the content, it'snot going to matter and it does
all start there, in my opinion,because it's you hope you want
to be found.
But what are they going to thinkonce they find you right?
Are they go?
Is it?
Are you going to put yourselfout there as an authority and
you know someone with expertise,as you just said, or is it
(43:46):
going to be hey, you have apretty picture that's not going
to lead you to a whole lot ofconfidence in choosing that as a
staff company, as a staffingpartner.
So I think that's such a greatapproach and and and it's the
right one for sure that I thinkyou know you guys are separated
from a lot of your competition,who just does not view it that
(44:07):
way, and I just have a lot ofrespect for the way you guys do
business.
Brian Jameson (44:14):
Yeah, we always want to make everyone look cool.
But if we can make them lookcool and, you know, get that
stuff to resonate, I thinkthat's that's kind of where the
ideal spot that you want to be,and knowing your audience right,
and I think you know you cancreate great content.
But if it's missing, missingthat mark to the audience, then
you know that that's maybemissed opportunity.
(44:36):
So, really having a goodunderstanding, like knowing your
, your we call them buyerpersonas or your target personas
and you know understanding, youknow what makes them tick and
everyone's a little bitdifferent and you know it might
seem simple on the surface butsometimes it's kind of hard to
to really get at that and peelback the layers, like what type
of content do they consume, whatdo they do on their free time?
(44:58):
And you know you can start togroup people into these personas
and really understand who theyare, because even today they're
all people, they're all humans.
They'll, you know, do the samethings that everybody else does.
They just happen to be inspecific in a specific industry
or specific buying position orthere are certain types of you
know candidate and that sort ofthing.
So, having a really crystalclear view of that and
(45:22):
understand, like maybe you needa survey, maybe you need to talk
to your clients, and I thinkthat's another thing that maybe
not everybody does, even thoughit seems maybe a bit obvious.
You may think you know, youknow the answers to what they
may say.
But sometimes just doing asimple actually like hey, find
your top five clients and likehey, mind if I just pick your
(45:45):
brain for 10 to 15 minutes toyou know, ask them like why do
you choose us over?
You know the other fivecompanies that you maybe can
work with, and you might besurprised at some of the answers
that you get and that can begood ingredients to go and
create more stuff and find morepeople like that.
Pete Newsome (46:00):
Yeah, it sounds simple when you say it, and, but
it's to apply that effort andto put structure around.
It is so complex for a staffingcompany or most businesses
anyway small businesses, mediumbusinesses, big businesses to
stop what you're doing and toput that kind of effort in place
, right, or even even somethinglike a content calendar, which
(46:22):
you mentioned earlier.
It's so necessary, right, buthow many companies can do that
on their own?
So I think they need most of usreally need a third party to
come in and oversee that effortand to know what order things
should be in, what steps need tobe taken.
It's not intuitive, it's not, Imean it.
(46:42):
It may even be intuitive tosome degree, it may be easy to
comprehend, but to do it youalmost need someone from the
outside to hold you accountable,I think, to ask those questions
, to put those steps in place, Ijust I think you know a third
party is very much needed.
Brian Jameson (47:01):
Yeah, I love the analogy of I don't know.
I always played sports growingup and I just love the analogies
to.
You know, running a business,like a sports team, like every
team, has a coach for a reason,and if you look at the NFL these
days, they've got a coach forevery position, right.
So you know there's a reason.
Even the best of the best,they've got someone there to
(47:24):
help guide them.
So, whether that's someone youhave internally or whether
that's you know an external, youknow third party resource, they
can help you as a serverpurpose and hold you accountable
, like you just said.
I mean, sometimes we're our ownworst enemies.
Like you know, I need to go tothe gym today, but you know I go
there and I don't know what todo.
(47:44):
So you know I go to a gym wherethey tell me what to do.
That's right.
Pete Newsome (47:48):
Yeah, I mean knowing what to do and actually
doing it very, very differentthings.
I don't know if you're watchingHard Knocks right now, you know
with the Jets.
Brian Jameson (47:55):
I think that happened yeah.
Pete Newsome (47:57):
That you know.
I didn't know the story ofAaron Rodgers and the this coach
who he bonded with in Green Bay, who came who's now with the
Jets, who had a Tim Vary headcoaching stand elsewhere right,
that just hearing Aaron Rodgerstalk about Aaron Rodgers is the
best in the game right now andthere's just to watch him.
I've just fascinated by gettingto see him up close.
(48:20):
How great he is, but he stillhas a coach, right, he still
needs a coach and relies on acoach.
So that's such a that really ismeaningful to me right now
because I just watched episodethree last night.
Brian Jameson (48:31):
Yeah, it's on my.
It's next time I've watched thefirst two.
I, I, I, I didn't give intothat stuff all day.
I think there's great, greatanalogies between the sports
teams and I think also thecompetitiveness.
That might be a topic foranother podcast.
Pete Newsome (48:47):
Well, I'll get you back on it.
I promised I told you 30minutes worth 48.
So last question predictionsfor the future.
You mentioned AI, so now I'mgoing to you know we'll bring
that up.
How could we not?
What?
What do you see?
What you know?
Crystal ball, what's?
What's going to be differentfive years from now?
Biggest change that AI is goingto bring about?
Brian Jameson (49:04):
Oh, man, I I.
Pete Newsome (49:07):
I know you didn't know, I didn't prepare yourself,
I knew this, this one better,right?
Brian Jameson (49:10):
I mean, if I guess, if I had a crystal ball,
I probably would be maybe in adifferent spot than I am today.
But if I were to predict thefuture, I mean, I definitely
think.
You know, as we've kind oftalked, you know, casually, I
think AI will certainly play arole, no question.
You know, the biggest change toyou know, if you think about
(49:31):
technology and technology andmarketing specifically, that has
happened since, in my opinion,since Google.
So I don't see I see it as atool.
I don't see it.
You know, maybe it'll replacesome, you know, functions, but I
don't think you're going to seemarketing people go away.
I don't think you're going tosee recruiters and sales people
(49:51):
going away or the need for astaffing firm go away.
You know it's just going to.
It's going to be another tooland the people that embrace it
and find the ways to make it asynergy for what they do.
Well, I think we'll reap therewards of it.
You know it's going to.
I think it reduces a lot of timespent in a lot of areas,
(50:14):
whether, even if you're a writer, you know, I don't, you know
we're not using AI to go writeblog posts for clients or
anything like that.
But we're writing stuff andwe're taking the work that we're
doing and we're using that toolto make it better or to do to
do more work, to do it to bemore productive.
And I think maybe that's, youknow, if you read some of the
(50:36):
news out there and just you hearsome of the top leaders and
some of these companies, they'retalking about productivity a
lot and being more productivewith what you've got, and I
think that's probably to sum itup.
I think people, you knowproductivity is, is, is poised
to be, you know, be able to domore with less using some of
(50:58):
these technologies like AI.
You know this automation that'sout there now, which is huge
and that's kind of, you know,before AI can happen, automation
was a huge or it still is ahuge topic of conversation out
there.
So I don't I see that stuff onlygrowing and becoming more
intertwined.
But I still think there's, youknow, there's still going to be
(51:22):
the need to, to still engagewith people and tell those
stories.
And now, you know, in thehistory of time, that's, you
know, kind of go back to.
You know all the books andthings that have been written
out there.
They're out there for reason,telling those different stories,
and I just I don't see thatgoing away.
(51:43):
You know, and maybe we'll seelike AI movies in the future.
I don't, I don't know.
Pete Newsome (51:47):
But I don't think you will know that's a oh no
right.
Brian Jameson (51:51):
Exactly, that'll be the yeah.
Will we know?
Will we not know?
I don't know.
But.
Pete Newsome (51:55):
No, I, no, you're I, we, nobody has that crystal
ball, right?
That's an unfair question.
So thanks for answering itanyway.
I wish we did.
But we, we know that it's hereto stay and I, you know, I think
of it the same way, right, it's.
It's going to allow us to bebetter at what we do, go faster
(52:17):
and more thorough, do new things, more with less.
That hasn't changed, I mean,since you know I, you're younger
than me, but since I've got outof school, that was that, was
it do more with less.
And of course that's going tocontinue.
That's human evolution and it'sgoing to be a fun ride, that's
for sure.
So I'll get you back on.
(52:37):
We'll talk about personas.
Maybe next time We'll talkabout technology, because
there's so many different areaswe could go down.
But thank you for for providingsuch a good overview today and
introducing, you know, echogravity to my listeners.
I think anyone who'sconsidering hiring a marketing
firm, and if you haven'tventured into that world, you're
(53:00):
, you're behind the curve, butit's not too late to catch up,
that's for sure.
There's so much opportunitythat I hope you give Brian a
call so we'll put all yourcontact info in our show notes,
Brian, and thanks for thanks forall your time today.
It's been great.
Brian Jameson (53:15):
Thank you, Pete.
I appreciate it, Love whatyou're doing out there and, yeah
, I think you're kind of atestament to a lot of stuff.
I was saying just getting outthere and putting bringing this
stuff to the forefront.
So love what you guys are doingand wish you guys all the
success in the world.
Pete Newsome (53:30):
Thanks, thanks so much.
Yeah, no one, no one wasstarting from scratch more than
me.
Brian Jameson (53:33):
That that we've proven, I think, pretty well, so
so I appreciate that, yeah, andit's awesome to share that
stuff out there.
Pete Newsome (53:40):
So all right everyone.
Thank you for listening.
Brian, thank you again and havea great rest of the day.
Brian Jameson (53:46):
Thank you.
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