February 3, 2025 • 43 mins
The hiring landscape is shifting—are you keeping up? In this episode, Vicky Brown, CEO of Idomeneo, shares expert insights on navigating the challenges of today’s job market, from the remote vs. in-office debate to finding and retaining top talent.
We’ll explore how businesses can rethink recruitment, treating it like marketing to attract the right candidates. Vicky breaks down the importance of clear career paths, smart hiring strategies, and the role of compliance in building strong teams. Plus, we discuss the impact of AI in hiring—when to embrace it and why human oversight still matters.
To wrap things up, Vicky shares helpful tips on streamlining your hiring process. Whether you’re a recruiter, HR leader, or business owner, this episode is packed with practical takeaways to elevate your hiring approach. Tune in now!
Additional Resources:
1. Idomeneo
2. Effective Methods of Recruitment and Selection for Hiring Top Talent
3. How Is Artificial Intelligence Changing the Recruiting Process?
4. Can You Trust AI to Handle Recruitment?
5. How to Use Video as an Innovative Recruitment Strategy
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out 4 Corner Resources at https://www.4cornerresources.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Blog Articles: https://www.4cornerresources.com/blog/
👋 FOLLOW VICKY BROWN ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vicky-brown-4160061/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast,
your source for all thingshiring, staffing and recruiting.
My guest today is Vicky Brown,ceo of Idomeneo, the HR
consultancy she founded in 2001.
I asked Vicky to join me todayto offer insight into how
companies can improve theirapproach to hiring, and she
absolutely delivered.
I found her perspective to beequally entertaining and
(00:20):
educational, and I think youwill too.
So let's get right to it, vicky.
What exactly does Idomeneo do?
Vicky Brown (00:27):
We have two major pillars.
We've got the HR outsourcedservices and that's outsourced
and consulting.
So we are the HR department forour clients basically, and if
they have HR talent on staffthen we can support that talent.
If you have one person, theycan spend all of their time
handling employee relationsissues.
(00:48):
So we come underneath them, wesupport them with the compliance
piece and payroll and benefitsand all that administrative, all
the transaction work, or we cando the whole thing.
So that's one side of thebusiness.
The other side of the businessreally is around education and
content.
So we have a robust DominoUniversity that is for the
employees of our clients and sowe do a bunch of things on that
(01:11):
platform, like manager training101 and anti-harassment training
and now violence prevention inthe workplace.
That's a new requirement inCalifornia, Unfortunately.
(01:38):
Yes, it is necessary, I dealwith that.
So leadership education as wellas nuts and bolts of what's a
new hire package and how do youterminate someone, how do you
write up someone and what do youdo when you start payroll, All
of those kinds of things.
So we have education on thatside.
Pete Newsome (01:53):
For new owners so important and necessary.
When I started my company nowover 19 years ago, I quickly
realized that there was noroadmap.
It's like having a baby rightTo your point.
Vicky Brown (02:06):
Sarah, please, you'll figure it out as you go
along.
Pete Newsome (02:09):
You figure it out as you go and that's really
dangerous.
Far from ideal, but you reallydo have to be resourceful if you
don't have an expert to rely on.
So everything you justdescribed, I can speak from
firsthand experience and say hownecessary it really is, because
you don't want to find outafter the fact that you got part
(02:31):
of that wrong and I know in myearly years it was just a matter
of luck.
I didn't have to learn some ofthose lessons the hard way,
because there's no doubt that wewere not.
If anyone from the government'slistening were asked that the
statute would be taken intoaccount.
That's no joke.
We were not in compliance witheverything we needed to be.
(02:51):
It wasn't because we didn'twant to be, we didn't know any
better.
So I'm sure you run into thatdaily.
Vicky Brown (03:00):
We absolutely do, and my love is supporting small
businesses and new businesses,and they can't.
They're not at the point wherethey're going to hire a domino
to be their HR department.
They're.
You know, that's not what thewhere the budget is, and so we
really wanted to put somethingtogether that was a subscription
model and a community and aneducation platform that allowed
(03:22):
them to get the answers thatthey need without spending a ton
of money, so that they canavoid particularly some of those
early low-hanging fruitmistakes that are so common you
have someone misclassified oryou don't run payroll as often
as you should, all sorts ofthings.
So we really want to be thereto be a resource.
Pete Newsome (03:44):
I could talk to you for hours about that aspect
of the business, but I didpromise that we were going to
focus on hiring today, so let'sjust start at a macro level.
What the how would you describethe state of the job market
right now?
From what you're seeing, you'reon the West Coast, I'm on the
East Coast and we recruitnationally, but most of our
businesses are on this part ofthe country.
(04:04):
Most we recruit nationally, butmost of our businesses are on
this part of the country.
Vicky Brown (04:08):
So how would you describe the market we are?
We too handle clientsnationwide.
Actually, our book coverseverywhere, but it's really it's
in flux.
That's basically how I'm goingto describe it.
It's interesting.
I actually just heard thismorning that the unemployment
rate had ticked up just a littlebit.
This morning that theunemployment rate had ticked up
just a little bit.
And so it's interesting becauseemployers are really looking
(04:29):
for good, qualified people andsometimes feeling that they
can't find them and that is auniversal truth.
Actually, as long as I've beenin business, that's been the
case, but particularly now,because they feel that they're
not finding the kind of qualitythat's willing to come in and do
the work that they need done.
(04:50):
Then you layer on top of that,we are betwixt, and between the
whole work from home.
So, we've got work from home,we've got hybrid, we've got
mandates to return to the office.
That's all shaking out and youknow that's going to be in flux
for a while, because theresponse from the employee base
(05:10):
hasn't really fully materializedyet.
I think there's more to comeand the response from employers
hasn't fully materialized yet,because I think there's more to
come on that front as well.
I think employers are beginningto be more vocal about the
value of synergy I hate to usethat word, it's so overused but
the collaboration that happens,the interstitial stuff that
(05:31):
happens when you're all in onespace together and employees are
like but I'm so much moreproductive when I'm not
interrupted a thousand times andI don't have to travel to work
every day and it's lessexpensive for me, which means
maybe I won't be asking for araise quite so soon and all
sorts of things.
So there's a lot that still isyet to shake out.
But one universal truth is thatfinding the right person for the
(05:55):
position that you have for yourteam is still a specialty.
It's not common, it's very.
What happens is someone leavesor you decide to expand and then
you're in a rush and you justwant to do.
You need to do everything asquickly as possible.
So you throw up job posting.
You get a thousand resumes.
You have no idea what to do withall of that and you just start
(06:17):
flying through them and anythingthat looks remotely familiar
you glom onto, or you're smartand you engage a professional
that can take care of that sidefor you, the business that
you're in, take care of thatside for you, and then give you
a few highly qualifiedcandidates and then what
typically happens is you startlooking at the budget and
(06:37):
thinking I can't quite pay themthat much.
I want to pay them this much.
So there is a lot that goesinto it.
But so, to answer your question, the market is in flux.
It continues to be in flux.
Employees are looking for greatplaces to land that they have
some interest in giving back tothe world that I'm in and I can
(07:09):
establish relationships and alsohave a work-life balance.
That is markedly different fromthe story back when I started.
We'll just say that.
Pete Newsome (07:19):
Yeah, I don't think either.
One of us heard the phrasework-life balance for the first
probably 20 years of ourprofessional careers.
Vicky Brown (07:28):
Exactly.
It was a system of I was hazedwhen I started here.
I'm going to haze you now.
That's basically what was goingon.
You worked long hours, you didwhatever.
You did whatever you needed todo to get the job done.
You hoped you were recognized.
Every once in a while you wouldthen step forward and ask for
recognition or promotion orraise or something like that.
Now I want to be clear.
I'm not saying that was right,I'm just saying that's what
(07:51):
existed.
And so I think, as my personalfeeling is, there is a balance
between those two worlds thatworld and the far, far world
that can exist now.
There's a balance between thosetwo things, and that is the
sweet spot, because we're allhere for the same thing we want
the business to be successful,we want the people in the
(08:13):
business to be successful.
That's when we all win.
So it's definitely a balancingact.
Pete Newsome (08:19):
Yeah, a lot has changed.
Needless to say, it continuesto evolve and change, but I
struggle with that.
I'm old school when it comes tohard work, right, put your head
down for some number of yearsbefore you expect things.
And today's younger generationsstruggle with that.
They have a differentperspective.
I think employers and employeesboth have a big challenge to
(08:44):
figure out where that balance is, which I think is what you're
describing.
And I have to ask, since we'rerecording, in the middle of
January, we've seen a lot ofannouncements coming with the
new presidential administrationin place, specifically with Doge
, whatever that is ultimatelygoing to be and enforcing
federal employees to go back tothe office.
(09:04):
Now we both probably haveopinions on that, but what do
you think that's going to mean?
How effective is that?
We don't have a crystal ball,but what's your take on what
happens in the near term withthose very significant changes?
Vicky Brown (09:22):
Yeah, I think it's not just there.
I think JP Morgan has a mandate, Amazon has a mandate now.
So a number of companies have amandate.
And, to be absolutelytransparent, I was the old dog.
I was like nope, we're workingin the office, we're a small,
tight team and we're going toget it done together.
Covid came around and we allwent home 24-7.
(09:43):
And then, when things startedopening up again, I had a
conversation with my seniorleadership team and we were
discussing it and we settled ona hybrid environment and now
it's as hybrid as I can handle,meaning Fridays.
Everybody works from home onFridays and the rest of the time
they're in here, and that hasbeen a happy medium for us.
(10:05):
So I think that the result ofthe return to work mandates are
going to be that definitely somepeople are going to leave, and
there's a lot of kind of chatterabout whether that was
ultimately the design.
I don't know, that's true, butcertainly some people will leave
(10:25):
.
I think that the entiremarketplace is changing a little
bit.
So I think the work from home,jobs that used to be much more
plentiful I think there willpeople will find that there are
fewer of them available not thatthey'll go away, but there will
.
You'll definitely be competingfor them, them available, not
that they'll go away, but you'lldefinitely be competing for
them and the individuals, theleadership that has mandated a
(10:49):
full return to the workplace.
They'll do that for a while andsee how it works and if it
really starts impacting theirbusiness in a negative way,
they'll have some level offlexibility in there to bring in
.
If you have a superstar you wantto bring in and you really need
them to head that division andthey really will only work in
the office four days a week,then you need to figure out
(11:11):
where that line is.
So there'll be some.
The water will flow, I shouldsay, depending on circumstances.
But so we're definitely we'renowhere near what it's
ultimately going to look likeand it's going to be some
combination, some meeting of theminds ultimately.
And we're definitely we'renowhere near what it's
ultimately going to look likeand it's going to be some
combination, some meeting of theminds ultimately, and we're
definitely not there yet.
But I think it's not going tobe a completely work from home
(11:34):
environment.
I think that's probably notgoing to be.
I don't think either side'sgoing to win the day.
Pete Newsome (11:39):
To tell you the truth, no, and so much of it
comes down to supply and demand,which is how I translate what
you're saying, which I agreewith 100% where we're not all
LeBron James, and if you are,you have a lot of flexibility in
what you can dictate.
But you also have to bepragmatic about where you are in
(11:59):
the supply and demand situationand demand situation, and if
it's not in your favor and Ithink that's probably what a lot
of employees are starting to-realize right now.
We've been looking for remoteonly jobs.
It's great if you can find it,if that's what you want to do,
but I've seen that shift and Ithink we'll continue to see it.
(12:21):
The momentum is heading in theother way for now, and it sounds
like we're on the same pagewith that.
What we're experiencing.
Vicky Brown (12:28):
It does, and it's unfortunate for those who have
set up a homestead in acompletely different state
because they were like I'm justgoing to be remote 100% of the
time.
I have some questions as towhether or not that was a choice
that was really well considered, because there are expenses on
the employer for that happening.
You know, you're all of asudden you're an employer in a
(12:49):
different state now, so thereare implications certainly there
.
Pete Newsome (12:55):
So we'll see how it goes for the next few years.
We will see, and I made aprediction on a couple of
different shows earlier inDecember, and my prediction was
we're going to see a lot more ofthose mandates this year and it
sounds like it's happening, sowe will adjust right.
Fortunately, you and I don'thave to make those decisions
other than for our own companies, but we need to pay close
(13:17):
attention to what's happening,as anyone who's listening now
does.
So when it comes to hiring, weknow that it's a challenge.
There's always new challengescoming at us, but we want to
help solve those as best we can,and so you have some ideas on
that.
I know I'm eager to talk aboutthose, so I'll let you start.
What are some of the thingsthat companies can do to improve
(13:39):
hiring?
Vicky Brown (13:41):
You know it all starts with knowing what your
needs are.
I think I know I certainly havein my career just gone blindly
into I need a body.
I know we have lots of work todo.
I need another person to helpdo it.
Without true crystal clarityaround, what are the needs that
(14:02):
we have?
Is that just a carve out forthat particular job or are there
some other functions that otherpeople are doing that maybe
needs to be?
Maybe it makes sense to sit inthat particular chair in
addition to otherresponsibilities, to really stop
and think it all boils down to.
I mentioned before about justbeing in a rush to get someone
in it.
(14:22):
Really, you ultimately savetime if you slow down to go fast
.
So you slow down.
You really think about what theneeds are in your organization
across the entire organization.
Don't just focus in on that onejob because, as I said,
particularly for small business,because we grow organically,
something needs to happen and wefigure out how to get it done.
(14:44):
It may not make sense for thatjob just to have those
responsibilities that you'rethinking about right now.
Maybe there's a piece ofmarketing that belongs in that
job and has simply been sittingwith someone else because you
didn't have any alternative.
So you really have to thinkabout your entire organization,
what you really are trying toaccomplish, and then what's the
(15:04):
best way to accomplish that.
Then you have to be crystalclear about what the skills and
qualities are that you need inthat person.
What will make them successful?
And we were talking earlierabout the generational
differences.
And one of the things that Ihave found really helps my
clients is when someone comes inand you're afraid that my
(15:30):
contemporaries say this all thetime Someone just started six
months ago and they're walkingand they want a promotion
already and they want some of.
That is a lack of knowing.
It's really helpful to becrystal clear about what you
think the career, what thepossible career path is, what's
expected at each particularstage.
(15:51):
If you're not going to promoteanybody for three years, say so.
If that's your policy, say so.
Be clear.
When we get into challenges,it's because it's a
communication and understandingchallenge.
Their expectations are onething.
Because it's a communicationand understanding challenge,
their expectations are one thing.
Various reasons.
You haven't been clear aboutwhat your expectations are,
either because you haven't beenclear with yourself about what
(16:12):
they are, or you don't want tohave that conversation because
maybe it'll make them upset andmaybe you'll lose this person
that you think is reallyterrific for the job.
Pete Newsome (16:21):
I'm sorry, but yeah.
Which thinking is, though?
More often, Do you think it'sjust lack of foresight and stop
thinking about it, or is itavoidance?
I'm curious If someone comes inas.
Vicky Brown (16:31):
So in my world, someone comes in as an associate
HR business partner, so the HRbusiness partners are basically
the HR reps or the directors forthe clients that we work.
(16:51):
So someone comes in as anassociate business partner and
they want to know how do I getto be a director?
We finally and we're an HRcompany we should do this better
, but we finally sat down andlaid out exactly what kind of
education, skills, abilities youneeded to prove to move from
(17:13):
associate to senior associate,and then what you need for
junior business partner, andthen what you need for business
partner and what you need forsenior business partner.
So all of that is clear now andwe make that readily available
to people.
And so it's that clarity.
And it takes, you know, sometime and some thought to put
those kinds of things together,and we just hadn't done it for a
(17:35):
really long time.
So I think it's just a matterof taking the time to really say
and then, when you think aboutdoing that for different
departments in your organization, that's a chunk of time.
You don't have to do ityourself.
Just because you're the leaderdoesn't mean you have to do
everything.
Get help from your seniormanagement team or the managers
in your company.
But definitely put thattogether, because once you have
(17:58):
clarity, once people are clearabout that, then you can have
the discussions around whetheror not they're actually meeting
those qualifications.
But when you just say, oh,you're not quite there yet, I
want to see a little, I want tosee improved judgment, that
doesn't that means somethingcompletely different to them
than it does to you.
Pete Newsome (18:15):
Yes, so clarity and specificity with things that
can be measured and trackedright.
Vicky Brown (18:22):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Pete Newsome (18:24):
Absolutely.
You said it's an investment oftime and it is a significant one
, but not when you compare it tohaving to replace that person
or replace, replace multiplepeople, which is invariably
what's going to happen withgreater frequency, I think.
Having being able to make thatdecision when you're not in the
moment, I think that's wherethat's the hard part right,
where, when someone leaves, it'seasy to say we should have done
(18:46):
this right, but to do it whenyou're not in that because but
that's not the moment you'regoing to do it either it goes.
Vicky Brown (18:52):
It's the old adage of go for the loan when you
don't need the money.
You really have to.
You really have to carve outthe time, make it part of your
goals as the leader of theorganization to really sit down
and put that together.
Or sit with your team and putthat together, because then if
someone leaves or you have a newposition come up, you have a
(19:14):
roadmap.
Then you're not scrambling,then you're not trying to just
create something out of a blankpage and that will be the
roadmap that you need Now youknow what qualities and
qualifications you're lookingfor.
Now you can start talking abouta job posting that makes sense,
a job description that makessense.
(19:34):
And I tell people all the timerecruiting is a marketing
activity and if you think it'snot, then you're not having,
you're not getting the rightpeople.
You are selling your business.
Just like you sell yourbusiness to your clients, sell
your services to your clients,you're selling your business,
your environment, your culture,your opportunity to those top
candidates.
Top candidates have a lot ofchoices, so you need to do a
(19:58):
little bit of selling and yourposting.
If you're an unusual company,you shouldn't have a usual
posting.
Give them a day in the life.
Let them know what it'sactually.
Do they start?
Will they start out most oftheir days working solo and
working on research projects andthen, toward the end of the day
, is more collaborative, ormaybe their weeks are more fluid
(20:19):
.
Whatever it is, make sureyou're clear about that.
Have employee testimonials.
I love to call themtestimonials.
Employees are saying this iswhy I work here, and not
something that's jargony.
Oh, I got to improve mysynergies.
They don't want that.
Real reasons around why theyenjoy working there.
(20:47):
And so you need to do that.
And I always tell people usevideo.
I know that that may just be abias of mine because we use
video, but I tell them to usevideo because there is nothing
like having a link in a jobdescription to a video of the
potential manager talking aboutwhat the company is or what the
department is or what they'relooking for.
That speaks volumes.
(21:09):
You want people to self-selectout.
You don't want a thousandresumes.
You want a hundred reallyfantastic resumes.
Pete Newsome (21:17):
I do and I love that you're an HR professional
suggesting non-traditional jobdescriptions because the
traditional one?
I apologize, but I make fun ofHR all the time by saying you
don't want the typical HRapproved job description that
says you have to be able to lift50 pounds right when you're a
software developer.
(21:37):
It's wonderful, but as someonewho earned a living figuring out
what a hiring manager islooking for and then producing
that individual with as fewresumes as possible, I never
wanted to recruit based onwhat's on a job description,
because they're unreliable andinaccurate.
They just very rarely representthe actual hiring need.
(22:00):
And what you're describing, ifI'm interpreting it correctly,
is make a job description thattells the actual story of what
life is like, who's needed forthe role, and that takes some
paying attention to on thecandidate side.
But we should expect, we shouldrequire that, because we've
made it my opinion.
(22:20):
This again, I start to datemyself with these hang
statements, but we make it tooeasy to apply to jobs and it
shouldn't be, that way, thereshould be some effort on both
sides that's in place, that wereally lack today, more often
than not.
Vicky Brown (22:35):
I absolutely agree.
I think that, again becausewe're in a hurry and we have a
need, a pressing need, that wejust skip vital steps, and
that's why and that will alwaysbe the case when you're in a
rush, so that's why it reallydoes take measured thought, a
measured thought process.
So you are even if you'recompletely staffed right now and
(22:59):
you're happy as a bug in a rug.
Everything is going great andyou don't need anyone.
That is the perfect time topull together the career pathing
piece, or exactly what the jobentails.
And, again, if you are doingreally well and you have great
people, get them to help youwith it.
They are the walking talkingversion of success for that job.
(23:22):
Let them have input.
It's just so important to getit done, though, because, again,
when you do it at the lastminute, you don't do it
basically.
Pete Newsome (23:32):
No, and that's not practical too.
It's understandable, but it'snot going to solve your problem
either.
And the video I just absolutelylove the video idea because
that is you want to hear fromthe horse, right?
What better way than to have,there is no better way than to
have the hiring manager justtalk right Now.
(23:52):
From an HR perspective, are youwilling to let the person talk
with no restrictions, nobarriers?
Vicky Brown (23:57):
Well, I love it when HR is behind the camera,
but I'm just keeping an eye onthings.
But they can talk about.
They don't have to do a fullinterview.
I'm talking about because youdon't want candidates to have to
sit and go through a 15 minutevideo, but I'm talking about
just a couple of minutes sayinghi, this is who I am and this is
what I, this is what my team islike and this is what I love
(24:18):
about it.
Pete Newsome (24:19):
Love it, I love it .
And how about this is?
I don't know if anyone's doingthis today, but how about being
requiring candidates to watchthat video prior to applying?
Or they don't get the linkuntil they watch the video.
Maybe it's only a minute long,but, boy, you can learn a lot in
that minute and it would really.
You said self-select out andthat's something that
(24:39):
necessarily, because of whetherthey're actually fully qualified
for the role, I don't mindgetting applications for
candidates who are close.
It's the one who've beenencouraged by a lot of people
out there who encourage us.
I'm sure you've seen like Ihave applied for everything.
You never know.
Now you do know.
Vicky Brown (24:57):
Exactly, Exactly.
And then people get upsetbecause they're like I was
ghosted.
I sent in a resume and I neverheard anything back, because
that hiring professional isgetting, I swear, 800 resumes
and it's because people areapplying for absolutely
everything.
Now I understand.
I have been on the other sideof things.
(25:18):
I have been in the role whereI'm looking for a job and you
want to make sure you'recovering your bases.
I understand that.
But if you are a little morespecific around what that job
can offer you, if you are alittle more discerning around,
you know what.
This just does not sound like afit to me at all.
(25:41):
Then you save a little mentalbrain power for yourself, as
well as getting wrapped up in oh, I'm not hearing back from
anybody.
It's clearly not a fit, Right?
It's important to.
I think it's important for, onthe hiring side, to be very
specific about what you'relooking for and on the side
(26:02):
where you're looking for a job,the job seeker I think you need
to be specific as well.
Pete Newsome (26:07):
I couldn't agree more, and I encourage kids to
apply to fewer jobs and then goall in on those two extra things
beyond sending your application.
And I do have to clarify.
I always say anytime anyonementions ghosting if I've never
engaged with you at all, I'm notghosting you.
So I've got on social media oh,they sent in a thousand
applications.
They ghosted me.
No, they never.
(26:27):
No, they never wanted to engagewith you in the first place.
And I don't think and you knowthis because you see both sides
of it, but I tend to defend therecruiters pretty aggressively
with this Recruiters aren'tobligated to respond to everyone
who applies if they're not evenclose, if they didn't read the
job description, and it's clearthat doesn't happen.
(26:48):
It's just not practical.
Recruiters need to spend thetime, especially a team like
mine, a third-party recruiterworking on behalf of our clients
.
Our time has to be very wellspent.
It can't be spent withcandidates who didn't even
bother to read the jobdescription.
So I doubt.
On the other hand, I thinkcourtesy professional courtesy
(27:08):
is always important.
So I want to caveat it withthat.
But I like to joke aboutghosting a little bit Again back
in my day.
Vicky Brown (27:16):
The alternative and the volume was much lower, but
the alternative was yeah, you'dbe working with some giant
platform and it would just shootback a note.
Thank you very much for yoursubmission.
Okay, now you've heard from us.
No, that means nothing.
Pete Newsome (27:31):
Feel better.
Of course you do.
Its technology has both been awonderful aid in the recruiting
process, but it's also been abig detriment to efficiency,
which is the opposite of what itshould be.
But I used to look for resumesin the mail.
I'd get excited when the mailcame, so I don't want to go back
to that, but the one-clickapply, I think, has been net
(27:55):
negative for both sides of therecruiting process.
So I love your idea and I'mgoing to steal it and try to get
some clients to implement itwith the video.
I think it's a great idea.
Vicky Brown (28:05):
Excellent, Thank you, Thank you.
Yeah, I think that it'simportant to again a phrase I'm
loathe to use, but to thinkoutside the box.
It's important to stand out.
You want standout candidates,then you should show that you're
a standout organization.
Pete Newsome (28:25):
I love it.
Anything else, Vicky, thatcomes to mind?
We're talking about neat tipsthat may improve hiring.
Or is that the big?
You've given some gold, noquestion about it.
But while I'm happy, is thereanything else you'd like?
Vicky Brown (28:31):
The other thing I would say really is and I can
say this because I am offendernumber one I'm so lucky that I
have a great staffing director.
She's taught me a lot.
But prepare for your interview.
Oh, I have an interview atthree.
Okay, I'm going to finish upthis report at two and at 2.30,
(28:53):
I'm going to grab some lunchreally quickly and, okay, I'll
be ready to do the interview atthree.
No, you won't.
You need to sit.
You need to look at the resume.
You need to look at whatevermaterials they've sent in.
You need to figure out what isnot in the resume that you need
to know about what's piquingyour interest so you can dig a
little bit deeper there.
You need to understand whatkind of conversation you're
(29:15):
going to have with this person.
Don't just wing it.
And I've done that and I'm verygood at it, but it's a very bad
thing to do.
I will tell.
I know there are plenty ofbusiness owners sitting out
there going, but I can do itbecause I'm really good at it.
No, I understand you're reallygood at it, but first of all,
the candidate can tell and it'sdisrespectful because you want
(29:37):
them.
When the candidate walks in myoffice or appears on my Zoom, or
whatever the case may be, andthey ask me questions that are
clearly demonstrating that theyhave done zero research on the
company, they know nothing aboutthe company.
They know nothing about me.
I feel like I'm in the middleof Devil Wears Prada, so you
don't know me, you don't knowRunway.
(29:57):
It's like they have no idea.
It is so easy to get thatinformation, to do that research
.
If they haven't done that'sdisrespectful to the situation
that we're in right now.
You're saying you want to workat my company to help us grow
and succeed.
I'm saying I want to invest inyou to help you in your career.
That is, that needs to be arespectful process.
(30:20):
And if you haven't even takenthe time to figure out who we
are and what we do with all ofthe information that we have
available out there on theinternet, then you're being
disrespectful.
And if I haven't taken the timeto read through your resume,
understand what your history hasbeen and ask you questions that
make sense, that really willhelp move our process of getting
(30:41):
to know one another along, I'mbeing disrespectful to you.
So plan.
Pete Newsome (30:48):
That professionalism on both sides
should be given.
It too often is not and we seenot to.
I continue to, I think, blameLinkedIn for a lot of the
current challenges.
By stories Candidate showed up15 minutes late and I gave them
a break because of X, y, z.
That's not real.
No, no one's going to give thecandidate a break for that.
(31:09):
You're being judged Right byyour early actions and because
you have no history and we allfocus on the candidates with
that.
So I joke about the LinkedInposts.
I'm sure you see them.
They're crazy and they're doingeveryone a disservice, but they
get a lot of likes rightBecause it conforms to the least
common denominator and we allwant that.
(31:31):
But those candidates are aterrible disservice.
But we also need to focus, asyou're describing, on the client
side.
They have an obligation totreat the candidate
professionally, to prepare foreverything you're describing,
and that also happens asurprising amount of times,
where it's not okay to show up15 minutes late, right, just
(31:52):
because and it happens I've seenI mean, I have story after
story over the past 20 years ofcandidates who just it's an
instant turnoff and there's noback from it, because that's
their first impression andthat's the lasting one.
And so I love that you'regiving that advice on both sides
, because we too often focus onthe candidates and, yes, they
(32:14):
need to do their part, but youhave some of the employers.
Vicky Brown (32:19):
Again, recruiting is a marketing activity.
You do that to a client.
Would you show up 15 minuteslate to a client just because
it's a power play or something?
No, you would not Be respectful.
Be professional, do your joband then you have a fair shot at
evaluating how they're doingtheir job, how they're doing
their part.
Pete Newsome (32:39):
I love that.
I'm so glad you shared that,because it's a message you can't
hear enough and don't hearenough.
Let me ask you just take alittle bit of a different track
before we wrap up AI in therecruiting process.
Now I'm a fan of AI.
I'm also somewhat terrified ofwhere it's heading.
You have a lot of reasons.
(33:00):
We'll talk about that later.
That's a different show, but itis here and in recruiting I
think it's going to become moreprevalent throughout this year
and beyond.
So what's your take on AI rightnow?
Vicky Brown (33:12):
I'm in love with AI , but I always say please and
thank you.
So when the robots take over,hopefully they will remember
that I was courting.
I'm in love with it but I amterrified.
But I do use it and I'm tryingto get even better and more
proficient with it.
So there are a couple of thingsaround AI, specifically around
recruiting and also as involveshuman resources.
There is lots of legislationthat's happening and a lot some
(33:36):
of it has happened.
Some of it is at the federallevel.
So, again, we don't know what'sgoing to be rolled back, how
it's going to be rolled back orif it's going to be rolled back.
At the same time, variousstates are beefing up their
guidance around the use of AI,particularly in the recruiting
process.
My general philosophy aroundartificial intelligence is it's
(33:59):
perfect, but you need human.
You need, like, humanmanagement of it, so you can't
just say, oh, I'm handling itthrough AI and I don't have to
do anything.
There are definitely thosecases of people who don't look
like they're the right people,but there's something in the way
(34:26):
they wrote, or there'ssomething in the way they
described their communityservice, or there's something in
there that that piques yourinterest.
You call them and you have aconversation with them and
they're really intriguing and itturns out that they're a
wonderful candidate.
It just didn't come through onthe resume.
The keyword wasn't there.
You're just looking forkeywords.
You can miss those people.
I know we've talked a lot aboutpeople self-selecting and being
(34:48):
specific around what theirrequirements are, but there are
those moments and you don'treally want to.
You want to minimize the chanceof you missing those moments.
On the legislative front, though, you have to be careful,
because AI is not how do I putthis?
There is not a guarantee thatthere's not some bias in there.
(35:08):
So if you're just using AI tohandle all of the first and
second level, go rounds ofsorting resumes probably not a
great idea.
I love the idea where you thecandidate doesn't even get the
link to apply until they've doneX, y and Z, because again, then
they are self-selecting out.
(35:28):
Then you have people who arenot going to follow instructions
, but it's not AI looking for aspecific keyword.
If you are going to do that,then make sure that, whatever
keywords you're looking at, youhave a broad range of them and
it's worth it sometimes,depending on how much you're
going to use AI in yourrecruiting process.
(35:49):
Honestly and I say this probablyway too often for my clients,
but I think you should probablytalk to labor council just to
make sure you've dotted your I'sand crossed your T's, make sure
that you've had a professionalsay this process passes muster,
and then put that in the fileand hang on to it if anyone
asked the question because thenyou've done your due diligence.
(36:10):
It's very complicated right now.
It's going to get morecomplicated as more legislation
comes down and more pushbackcomes from users, because it is
a tremendous time saver and,when done right, the platforms
are getting better.
They're improving.
They're not perfect yet.
They still hallucinate All ofthat still happens but they're
getting better and so it's sucha fluid situation that you
(36:34):
really have to pay very closeattention and, depending on how
much you're going to use AI inthe process, you really need to
know that you have the backupthat you need to support that.
Pete Newsome (36:45):
I agree with everything you said.
My first-hand experiences overmany years is everything we
could say about candidates.
You can say there's a similarstory to be told on the employer
side and since we sit in themiddle, like you do, you get to
see both of these things.
And almost very few people aregood at writing resumes.
(37:08):
And, yeah, just like there'svery few good job descriptions
out there currently and that'sokay.
If we judge candidates on thequality of their resume, we we
brought most of them and so I II don't get hung up on that.
For the same reason, I don'tget hung up on job descriptions.
I just assume it's not going tobe very good.
And if you use that proponent,that's the cover of the book and
(37:32):
the book has to tell or thecover has to tell enough of the
story that I'm going to want toopen the book.
Right, but beyond that you'reprobably not.
You don't need to be apotential resume writer as a
candidate.
You need to be great at what itis.
You do whatever that is and itjust needs to get past that
first level.
So if there's any takeaway fromour conversation today for
(37:53):
whoever is listening, you havetwo people who've been doing
this a long time.
Saying get to the individuals,I think is really what we're
both talking about, and I loveeverything you've said in that
regard, because it's my livedexperience that you don't want
to rely on things like ascreening process or AI and I
(38:15):
love it too, and it's not goingaway and we have to use it,
jarred, ban it or get leftbehind.
But you have to give the needto service and get to the
individual, and as soon as wecan do that, then we're going to
be a lot better off.
But it takes a commitment oftime by the individual, which is
what's needed in order to.
(38:36):
I'm going to invest my time inyou.
To recruit you for this job,you have to show your
willingness.
I'm going to consider as acandidate going to work for a
company.
They should show their interestin me as a candidate.
We're filling that role withthe right, with the right person
, and that's much easier saidthan done.
Vicky Brown (38:51):
And if you could, if you want to.
Pete Newsome (38:52):
That's like a beautiful world to live in.
Vicky Brown (38:55):
I have a little pro tip for my fellow business
owners and business leaders.
I have a little pro tip for myfellow business owners and
business leaders.
I have a small business, youhave a small.
We're small business owners.
We know what the day looks like.
Usually it's sitting on ourhead from the moment we start
until the moment we're done inthe evening.
But you don't have to do it allyourself.
I know we've talked a lot aboutwhat the responsibility and
(39:20):
accountability is on the hiringmanager or on the business owner
side.
I know what your calendar lookslike.
It is there.
You haven't gotten.
Don't have a spare second.
I understand that.
And now I'm coming along going.
I want you to sit back andthink about copywriting a job
posting, because it's amarketing exercise.
(39:41):
So I totally get that Exactly.
But the thing that we alwayshave to remember is we are not
doing this alone.
Part of our DNA asentrepreneurs is to charge
forward and get it done, nomatter what we keep forgetting.
You can delegate, you can gethelp, you can get support.
(40:02):
So use the expertise that'saround you, use your team.
Let someone else do that firstdraft of the career pathing and
you can come in and do edits.
You don't have to do it allbecause, if the odds are, if the
choices are, either I'm goingto try to make time to get it
done or I'm not going to do itat all.
(40:24):
You're not going to do it atall.
So use your team, use expertslike your firm.
Really get out there and usethe resources that are.
Be resourceful, use theresources that are available for
you, because it's critical thatyou get this kind of thing done
for your business.
It's going to improve yourbusiness.
It's going to improve thequality of the candidates that
(40:44):
you ultimately hire, it's goingto improve the lives of your
team and they are going to makeyou stand on the shoulders of
your team.
They are going to make yourbusiness or break it.
Pete Newsome (40:53):
So do everything you can for them Great advice
and I'm sure that the messageresonates with more than we can
even think of.
There's no doubt about it.
Thank you so much for your time.
Before we go, just give me aprofile of who your ideal client
is to work with, so who shouldcall you and what point your
(41:14):
contact information and shownotes and make sure everyone has
access to that.
But that's your ideal profileof company to work with and can
benefit from your service.
Vicky Brown (41:23):
Thank you.
We actually work with clientsnationwide.
We're located in California sowe know all the California
weirdness and we have a bunch ofclients in New York, so we know
the New York weirdness too.
But we work all over the nationand, generally speaking,
clients that have 100 or feweremployees are a great target for
us, because that's where thingsget a little complicated.
(41:46):
We have a bunch of clients thatare 40 people, 20 people, 30
people, so we're on the low endas well as the higher end.
Once they get around 100, itusually is helpful to have
someone in-house and then we cansupport that person.
To have someone in-house andthen we can support that person.
But 100 or less probably.
I would say our very sweetestof the sweet spot would be
around 40, 50, like that,because 50 is where a bunch of
(42:07):
labor laws kick in, but theycount the people differently, so
you might think you're at 45and you might really be at 50.
So that range is really.
We can provide a lot, a greatdeal of value at that level.
Pete Newsome (42:19):
Perfect and just through this conversation you
and I didn't know each otherprior to today.
I have a lot of confidencesaying you are someone that
anyone should be verycomfortable reaching out to.
You just tell someone who hasthe right knowledge, right depth
of knowledge, and I've reallyenjoyed this conversation and
(42:39):
hope that we get a chance to doit again, because your
experience today just speaks foritself with how you answer
these questions today, and Ican't thank you enough for it.
Thank you very much.
Vicky Brown (42:50):
Oh, my goodness, Thank you for the kind words and
thank you so much.
This has really been a greatchat and we have a little gift
for your.
I'll give you the informationfor the show notes.
But we have a little gift foryour audience.
They can get a little kind ofultimate HR workflow and
hopefully that'll help them getthrough their day.
Pete Newsome (43:06):
Wonderful, we look forward to sharing that For
sure.
So, vicki, one more time, thankyou again and have a great rest
of the day, lovely.
Thank you, you too.
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast,
your source for all thingshiring, staffing and recruiting.
My guest today is Vicky Brown,ceo of Idomeneo, the HR
consultancy she founded in 2001.
I asked Vicky to join me todayto offer insight into how
companies can improve theirapproach to hiring, and she
absolutely delivered.
I found her perspective to beequally entertaining and
(00:20):
educational, and I think youwill too.
So let's get right to it, vicky.
What exactly does Idomeneo do?
Vicky Brown (00:27):
We have two major pillars.
We've got the HR outsourcedservices and that's outsourced
and consulting.
So we are the HR department forour clients basically, and if
they have HR talent on staffthen we can support that talent.
If you have one person, theycan spend all of their time
handling employee relationsissues.
(00:48):
So we come underneath them, wesupport them with the compliance
piece and payroll and benefitsand all that administrative, all
the transaction work, or we cando the whole thing.
So that's one side of thebusiness.
The other side of the businessreally is around education and
content.
So we have a robust DominoUniversity that is for the
employees of our clients and sowe do a bunch of things on that
(01:11):
platform, like manager training101 and anti-harassment training
and now violence prevention inthe workplace.
That's a new requirement inCalifornia, Unfortunately.
(01:38):
Yes, it is necessary, I dealwith that.
So leadership education as wellas nuts and bolts of what's a
new hire package and how do youterminate someone, how do you
write up someone and what do youdo when you start payroll, All
of those kinds of things.
So we have education on thatside.
Pete Newsome (01:53):
For new owners so important and necessary.
When I started my company nowover 19 years ago, I quickly
realized that there was noroadmap.
It's like having a baby rightTo your point.
Vicky Brown (02:06):
Sarah, please, you'll figure it out as you go
along.
Pete Newsome (02:09):
You figure it out as you go and that's really
dangerous.
Far from ideal, but you reallydo have to be resourceful if you
don't have an expert to rely on.
So everything you justdescribed, I can speak from
firsthand experience and say hownecessary it really is, because
you don't want to find outafter the fact that you got part
(02:31):
of that wrong and I know in myearly years it was just a matter
of luck.
I didn't have to learn some ofthose lessons the hard way,
because there's no doubt that wewere not.
If anyone from the government'slistening were asked that the
statute would be taken intoaccount.
That's no joke.
We were not in compliance witheverything we needed to be.
(02:51):
It wasn't because we didn'twant to be, we didn't know any
better.
So I'm sure you run into thatdaily.
Vicky Brown (03:00):
We absolutely do, and my love is supporting small
businesses and new businesses,and they can't.
They're not at the point wherethey're going to hire a domino
to be their HR department.
They're.
You know, that's not what thewhere the budget is, and so we
really wanted to put somethingtogether that was a subscription
model and a community and aneducation platform that allowed
(03:22):
them to get the answers thatthey need without spending a ton
of money, so that they canavoid particularly some of those
early low-hanging fruitmistakes that are so common you
have someone misclassified oryou don't run payroll as often
as you should, all sorts ofthings.
So we really want to be thereto be a resource.
Pete Newsome (03:44):
I could talk to you for hours about that aspect
of the business, but I didpromise that we were going to
focus on hiring today, so let'sjust start at a macro level.
What the how would you describethe state of the job market
right now?
From what you're seeing, you'reon the West Coast, I'm on the
East Coast and we recruitnationally, but most of our
businesses are on this part ofthe country.
(04:04):
Most we recruit nationally, butmost of our businesses are on
this part of the country.
Vicky Brown (04:08):
So how would you describe the market we are?
We too handle clientsnationwide.
Actually, our book coverseverywhere, but it's really it's
in flux.
That's basically how I'm goingto describe it.
It's interesting.
I actually just heard thismorning that the unemployment
rate had ticked up just a littlebit.
This morning that theunemployment rate had ticked up
just a little bit.
And so it's interesting becauseemployers are really looking
(04:29):
for good, qualified people andsometimes feeling that they
can't find them and that is auniversal truth.
Actually, as long as I've beenin business, that's been the
case, but particularly now,because they feel that they're
not finding the kind of qualitythat's willing to come in and do
the work that they need done.
(04:50):
Then you layer on top of that,we are betwixt, and between the
whole work from home.
So, we've got work from home,we've got hybrid, we've got
mandates to return to the office.
That's all shaking out and youknow that's going to be in flux
for a while, because theresponse from the employee base
(05:10):
hasn't really fully materializedyet.
I think there's more to comeand the response from employers
hasn't fully materialized yet,because I think there's more to
come on that front as well.
I think employers are beginningto be more vocal about the
value of synergy I hate to usethat word, it's so overused but
the collaboration that happens,the interstitial stuff that
(05:31):
happens when you're all in onespace together and employees are
like but I'm so much moreproductive when I'm not
interrupted a thousand times andI don't have to travel to work
every day and it's lessexpensive for me, which means
maybe I won't be asking for araise quite so soon and all
sorts of things.
So there's a lot that still isyet to shake out.
But one universal truth is thatfinding the right person for the
(05:55):
position that you have for yourteam is still a specialty.
It's not common, it's very.
What happens is someone leavesor you decide to expand and then
you're in a rush and you justwant to do.
You need to do everything asquickly as possible.
So you throw up job posting.
You get a thousand resumes.
You have no idea what to do withall of that and you just start
(06:17):
flying through them and anythingthat looks remotely familiar
you glom onto, or you're smartand you engage a professional
that can take care of that sidefor you, the business that
you're in, take care of thatside for you, and then give you
a few highly qualifiedcandidates and then what
typically happens is you startlooking at the budget and
(06:37):
thinking I can't quite pay themthat much.
I want to pay them this much.
So there is a lot that goesinto it.
But so, to answer your question, the market is in flux.
It continues to be in flux.
Employees are looking for greatplaces to land that they have
some interest in giving back tothe world that I'm in and I can
(07:09):
establish relationships and alsohave a work-life balance.
That is markedly different fromthe story back when I started.
We'll just say that.
Pete Newsome (07:19):
Yeah, I don't think either.
One of us heard the phrasework-life balance for the first
probably 20 years of ourprofessional careers.
Vicky Brown (07:28):
Exactly.
It was a system of I was hazedwhen I started here.
I'm going to haze you now.
That's basically what was goingon.
You worked long hours, you didwhatever.
You did whatever you needed todo to get the job done.
You hoped you were recognized.
Every once in a while you wouldthen step forward and ask for
recognition or promotion orraise or something like that.
Now I want to be clear.
I'm not saying that was right,I'm just saying that's what
(07:51):
existed.
And so I think, as my personalfeeling is, there is a balance
between those two worlds thatworld and the far, far world
that can exist now.
There's a balance between thosetwo things, and that is the
sweet spot, because we're allhere for the same thing we want
the business to be successful,we want the people in the
(08:13):
business to be successful.
That's when we all win.
So it's definitely a balancingact.
Pete Newsome (08:19):
Yeah, a lot has changed.
Needless to say, it continuesto evolve and change, but I
struggle with that.
I'm old school when it comes tohard work, right, put your head
down for some number of yearsbefore you expect things.
And today's younger generationsstruggle with that.
They have a differentperspective.
I think employers and employeesboth have a big challenge to
(08:44):
figure out where that balance is, which I think is what you're
describing.
And I have to ask, since we'rerecording, in the middle of
January, we've seen a lot ofannouncements coming with the
new presidential administrationin place, specifically with Doge
, whatever that is ultimatelygoing to be and enforcing
federal employees to go back tothe office.
(09:04):
Now we both probably haveopinions on that, but what do
you think that's going to mean?
How effective is that?
We don't have a crystal ball,but what's your take on what
happens in the near term withthose very significant changes?
Vicky Brown (09:22):
Yeah, I think it's not just there.
I think JP Morgan has a mandate, Amazon has a mandate now.
So a number of companies have amandate.
And, to be absolutelytransparent, I was the old dog.
I was like nope, we're workingin the office, we're a small,
tight team and we're going toget it done together.
Covid came around and we allwent home 24-7.
(09:43):
And then, when things startedopening up again, I had a
conversation with my seniorleadership team and we were
discussing it and we settled ona hybrid environment and now
it's as hybrid as I can handle,meaning Fridays.
Everybody works from home onFridays and the rest of the time
they're in here, and that hasbeen a happy medium for us.
(10:05):
So I think that the result ofthe return to work mandates are
going to be that definitely somepeople are going to leave, and
there's a lot of kind of chatterabout whether that was
ultimately the design.
I don't know, that's true, butcertainly some people will leave
(10:25):
.
I think that the entiremarketplace is changing a little
bit.
So I think the work from home,jobs that used to be much more
plentiful I think there willpeople will find that there are
fewer of them available not thatthey'll go away, but there will
.
You'll definitely be competingfor them, them available, not
that they'll go away, but you'lldefinitely be competing for
them and the individuals, theleadership that has mandated a
(10:49):
full return to the workplace.
They'll do that for a while andsee how it works and if it
really starts impacting theirbusiness in a negative way,
they'll have some level offlexibility in there to bring in
.
If you have a superstar you wantto bring in and you really need
them to head that division andthey really will only work in
the office four days a week,then you need to figure out
(11:11):
where that line is.
So there'll be some.
The water will flow, I shouldsay, depending on circumstances.
But so we're definitely we'renowhere near what it's
ultimately going to look likeand it's going to be some
combination, some meeting of theminds ultimately.
And we're definitely we'renowhere near what it's
ultimately going to look likeand it's going to be some
combination, some meeting of theminds ultimately, and we're
definitely not there yet.
But I think it's not going tobe a completely work from home
(11:34):
environment.
I think that's probably notgoing to be.
I don't think either side'sgoing to win the day.
Pete Newsome (11:39):
To tell you the truth, no, and so much of it
comes down to supply and demand,which is how I translate what
you're saying, which I agreewith 100% where we're not all
LeBron James, and if you are,you have a lot of flexibility in
what you can dictate.
But you also have to bepragmatic about where you are in
(11:59):
the supply and demand situationand demand situation, and if
it's not in your favor and Ithink that's probably what a lot
of employees are starting to-realize right now.
We've been looking for remoteonly jobs.
It's great if you can find it,if that's what you want to do,
but I've seen that shift and Ithink we'll continue to see it.
(12:21):
The momentum is heading in theother way for now, and it sounds
like we're on the same pagewith that.
What we're experiencing.
Vicky Brown (12:28):
It does, and it's unfortunate for those who have
set up a homestead in acompletely different state
because they were like I'm justgoing to be remote 100% of the
time.
I have some questions as towhether or not that was a choice
that was really well considered, because there are expenses on
the employer for that happening.
You know, you're all of asudden you're an employer in a
(12:49):
different state now, so thereare implications certainly there
.
Pete Newsome (12:55):
So we'll see how it goes for the next few years.
We will see, and I made aprediction on a couple of
different shows earlier inDecember, and my prediction was
we're going to see a lot more ofthose mandates this year and it
sounds like it's happening, sowe will adjust right.
Fortunately, you and I don'thave to make those decisions
other than for our own companies, but we need to pay close
(13:17):
attention to what's happening,as anyone who's listening now
does.
So when it comes to hiring, weknow that it's a challenge.
There's always new challengescoming at us, but we want to
help solve those as best we can,and so you have some ideas on
that.
I know I'm eager to talk aboutthose, so I'll let you start.
What are some of the thingsthat companies can do to improve
(13:39):
hiring?
Vicky Brown (13:41):
You know it all starts with knowing what your
needs are.
I think I know I certainly havein my career just gone blindly
into I need a body.
I know we have lots of work todo.
I need another person to helpdo it.
Without true crystal clarityaround, what are the needs that
(14:02):
we have?
Is that just a carve out forthat particular job or are there
some other functions that otherpeople are doing that maybe
needs to be?
Maybe it makes sense to sit inthat particular chair in
addition to otherresponsibilities, to really stop
and think it all boils down to.
I mentioned before about justbeing in a rush to get someone
in it.
(14:22):
Really, you ultimately savetime if you slow down to go fast
.
So you slow down.
You really think about what theneeds are in your organization
across the entire organization.
Don't just focus in on that onejob because, as I said,
particularly for small business,because we grow organically,
something needs to happen and wefigure out how to get it done.
(14:44):
It may not make sense for thatjob just to have those
responsibilities that you'rethinking about right now.
Maybe there's a piece ofmarketing that belongs in that
job and has simply been sittingwith someone else because you
didn't have any alternative.
So you really have to thinkabout your entire organization,
what you really are trying toaccomplish, and then what's the
(15:04):
best way to accomplish that.
Then you have to be crystalclear about what the skills and
qualities are that you need inthat person.
What will make them successful?
And we were talking earlierabout the generational
differences.
And one of the things that Ihave found really helps my
clients is when someone comes inand you're afraid that my
(15:30):
contemporaries say this all thetime Someone just started six
months ago and they're walkingand they want a promotion
already and they want some of.
That is a lack of knowing.
It's really helpful to becrystal clear about what you
think the career, what thepossible career path is, what's
expected at each particularstage.
(15:51):
If you're not going to promoteanybody for three years, say so.
If that's your policy, say so.
Be clear.
When we get into challenges,it's because it's a
communication and understandingchallenge.
Their expectations are onething.
Because it's a communicationand understanding challenge,
their expectations are one thing.
Various reasons.
You haven't been clear aboutwhat your expectations are,
either because you haven't beenclear with yourself about what
(16:12):
they are, or you don't want tohave that conversation because
maybe it'll make them upset andmaybe you'll lose this person
that you think is reallyterrific for the job.
Pete Newsome (16:21):
I'm sorry, but yeah.
Which thinking is, though?
More often, Do you think it'sjust lack of foresight and stop
thinking about it, or is itavoidance?
I'm curious If someone comes inas.
Vicky Brown (16:31):
So in my world, someone comes in as an associate
HR business partner, so the HRbusiness partners are basically
the HR reps or the directors forthe clients that we work.
(16:51):
So someone comes in as anassociate business partner and
they want to know how do I getto be a director?
We finally and we're an HRcompany we should do this better
, but we finally sat down andlaid out exactly what kind of
education, skills, abilities youneeded to prove to move from
(17:13):
associate to senior associate,and then what you need for
junior business partner, andthen what you need for business
partner and what you need forsenior business partner.
So all of that is clear now andwe make that readily available
to people.
And so it's that clarity.
And it takes, you know, sometime and some thought to put
those kinds of things together,and we just hadn't done it for a
(17:35):
really long time.
So I think it's just a matterof taking the time to really say
and then, when you think aboutdoing that for different
departments in your organization, that's a chunk of time.
You don't have to do ityourself.
Just because you're the leaderdoesn't mean you have to do
everything.
Get help from your seniormanagement team or the managers
in your company.
But definitely put thattogether, because once you have
(17:58):
clarity, once people are clearabout that, then you can have
the discussions around whetheror not they're actually meeting
those qualifications.
But when you just say, oh,you're not quite there yet, I
want to see a little, I want tosee improved judgment, that
doesn't that means somethingcompletely different to them
than it does to you.
Pete Newsome (18:15):
Yes, so clarity and specificity with things that
can be measured and trackedright.
Vicky Brown (18:22):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Pete Newsome (18:24):
Absolutely.
You said it's an investment oftime and it is a significant one
, but not when you compare it tohaving to replace that person
or replace, replace multiplepeople, which is invariably
what's going to happen withgreater frequency, I think.
Having being able to make thatdecision when you're not in the
moment, I think that's wherethat's the hard part right,
where, when someone leaves, it'seasy to say we should have done
(18:46):
this right, but to do it whenyou're not in that because but
that's not the moment you'regoing to do it either it goes.
Vicky Brown (18:52):
It's the old adage of go for the loan when you
don't need the money.
You really have to.
You really have to carve outthe time, make it part of your
goals as the leader of theorganization to really sit down
and put that together.
Or sit with your team and putthat together, because then if
someone leaves or you have a newposition come up, you have a
(19:14):
roadmap.
Then you're not scrambling,then you're not trying to just
create something out of a blankpage and that will be the
roadmap that you need Now youknow what qualities and
qualifications you're lookingfor.
Now you can start talking abouta job posting that makes sense,
a job description that makessense.
(19:34):
And I tell people all the timerecruiting is a marketing
activity and if you think it'snot, then you're not having,
you're not getting the rightpeople.
You are selling your business.
Just like you sell yourbusiness to your clients, sell
your services to your clients,you're selling your business,
your environment, your culture,your opportunity to those top
candidates.
Top candidates have a lot ofchoices, so you need to do a
(19:58):
little bit of selling and yourposting.
If you're an unusual company,you shouldn't have a usual
posting.
Give them a day in the life.
Let them know what it'sactually.
Do they start?
Will they start out most oftheir days working solo and
working on research projects andthen, toward the end of the day
, is more collaborative, ormaybe their weeks are more fluid
(20:19):
.
Whatever it is, make sureyou're clear about that.
Have employee testimonials.
I love to call themtestimonials.
Employees are saying this iswhy I work here, and not
something that's jargony.
Oh, I got to improve mysynergies.
They don't want that.
Real reasons around why theyenjoy working there.
(20:47):
And so you need to do that.
And I always tell people usevideo.
I know that that may just be abias of mine because we use
video, but I tell them to usevideo because there is nothing
like having a link in a jobdescription to a video of the
potential manager talking aboutwhat the company is or what the
department is or what they'relooking for.
That speaks volumes.
(21:09):
You want people to self-selectout.
You don't want a thousandresumes.
You want a hundred reallyfantastic resumes.
Pete Newsome (21:17):
I do and I love that you're an HR professional
suggesting non-traditional jobdescriptions because the
traditional one?
I apologize, but I make fun ofHR all the time by saying you
don't want the typical HRapproved job description that
says you have to be able to lift50 pounds right when you're a
software developer.
(21:37):
It's wonderful, but as someonewho earned a living figuring out
what a hiring manager islooking for and then producing
that individual with as fewresumes as possible, I never
wanted to recruit based onwhat's on a job description,
because they're unreliable andinaccurate.
They just very rarely representthe actual hiring need.
(22:00):
And what you're describing, ifI'm interpreting it correctly,
is make a job description thattells the actual story of what
life is like, who's needed forthe role, and that takes some
paying attention to on thecandidate side.
But we should expect, we shouldrequire that, because we've
made it my opinion.
(22:20):
This again, I start to datemyself with these hang
statements, but we make it tooeasy to apply to jobs and it
shouldn't be, that way, thereshould be some effort on both
sides that's in place, that wereally lack today, more often
than not.
Vicky Brown (22:35):
I absolutely agree.
I think that, again becausewe're in a hurry and we have a
need, a pressing need, that wejust skip vital steps, and
that's why and that will alwaysbe the case when you're in a
rush, so that's why it reallydoes take measured thought, a
measured thought process.
So you are even if you'recompletely staffed right now and
(22:59):
you're happy as a bug in a rug.
Everything is going great andyou don't need anyone.
That is the perfect time topull together the career pathing
piece, or exactly what the jobentails.
And, again, if you are doingreally well and you have great
people, get them to help youwith it.
They are the walking talkingversion of success for that job.
(23:22):
Let them have input.
It's just so important to getit done, though, because, again,
when you do it at the lastminute, you don't do it
basically.
Pete Newsome (23:32):
No, and that's not practical too.
It's understandable, but it'snot going to solve your problem
either.
And the video I just absolutelylove the video idea because
that is you want to hear fromthe horse, right?
What better way than to have,there is no better way than to
have the hiring manager justtalk right Now.
(23:52):
From an HR perspective, are youwilling to let the person talk
with no restrictions, nobarriers?
Vicky Brown (23:57):
Well, I love it when HR is behind the camera,
but I'm just keeping an eye onthings.
But they can talk about.
They don't have to do a fullinterview.
I'm talking about because youdon't want candidates to have to
sit and go through a 15 minutevideo, but I'm talking about
just a couple of minutes sayinghi, this is who I am and this is
what I, this is what my team islike and this is what I love
(24:18):
about it.
Pete Newsome (24:19):
Love it, I love it .
And how about this is?
I don't know if anyone's doingthis today, but how about being
requiring candidates to watchthat video prior to applying?
Or they don't get the linkuntil they watch the video.
Maybe it's only a minute long,but, boy, you can learn a lot in
that minute and it would really.
You said self-select out andthat's something that
(24:39):
necessarily, because of whetherthey're actually fully qualified
for the role, I don't mindgetting applications for
candidates who are close.
It's the one who've beenencouraged by a lot of people
out there who encourage us.
I'm sure you've seen like Ihave applied for everything.
You never know.
Now you do know.
Vicky Brown (24:57):
Exactly, Exactly.
And then people get upsetbecause they're like I was
ghosted.
I sent in a resume and I neverheard anything back, because
that hiring professional isgetting, I swear, 800 resumes
and it's because people areapplying for absolutely
everything.
Now I understand.
I have been on the other sideof things.
(25:18):
I have been in the role whereI'm looking for a job and you
want to make sure you'recovering your bases.
I understand that.
But if you are a little morespecific around what that job
can offer you, if you are alittle more discerning around,
you know what.
This just does not sound like afit to me at all.
(25:41):
Then you save a little mentalbrain power for yourself, as
well as getting wrapped up in oh, I'm not hearing back from
anybody.
It's clearly not a fit, Right?
It's important to.
I think it's important for, onthe hiring side, to be very
specific about what you'relooking for and on the side
(26:02):
where you're looking for a job,the job seeker I think you need
to be specific as well.
Pete Newsome (26:07):
I couldn't agree more, and I encourage kids to
apply to fewer jobs and then goall in on those two extra things
beyond sending your application.
And I do have to clarify.
I always say anytime anyonementions ghosting if I've never
engaged with you at all, I'm notghosting you.
So I've got on social media oh,they sent in a thousand
applications.
They ghosted me.
No, they never.
(26:27):
No, they never wanted to engagewith you in the first place.
And I don't think and you knowthis because you see both sides
of it, but I tend to defend therecruiters pretty aggressively
with this Recruiters aren'tobligated to respond to everyone
who applies if they're not evenclose, if they didn't read the
job description, and it's clearthat doesn't happen.
(26:48):
It's just not practical.
Recruiters need to spend thetime, especially a team like
mine, a third-party recruiterworking on behalf of our clients
.
Our time has to be very wellspent.
It can't be spent withcandidates who didn't even
bother to read the jobdescription.
So I doubt.
On the other hand, I thinkcourtesy professional courtesy
(27:08):
is always important.
So I want to caveat it withthat.
But I like to joke aboutghosting a little bit Again back
in my day.
Vicky Brown (27:16):
The alternative and the volume was much lower, but
the alternative was yeah, you'dbe working with some giant
platform and it would just shootback a note.
Thank you very much for yoursubmission.
Okay, now you've heard from us.
No, that means nothing.
Pete Newsome (27:31):
Feel better.
Of course you do.
Its technology has both been awonderful aid in the recruiting
process, but it's also been abig detriment to efficiency,
which is the opposite of what itshould be.
But I used to look for resumesin the mail.
I'd get excited when the mailcame, so I don't want to go back
to that, but the one-clickapply, I think, has been net
(27:55):
negative for both sides of therecruiting process.
So I love your idea and I'mgoing to steal it and try to get
some clients to implement itwith the video.
I think it's a great idea.
Vicky Brown (28:05):
Excellent, Thank you, Thank you.
Yeah, I think that it'simportant to again a phrase I'm
loathe to use, but to thinkoutside the box.
It's important to stand out.
You want standout candidates,then you should show that you're
a standout organization.
Pete Newsome (28:25):
I love it.
Anything else, Vicky, thatcomes to mind?
We're talking about neat tipsthat may improve hiring.
Or is that the big?
You've given some gold, noquestion about it.
But while I'm happy, is thereanything else you'd like?
Vicky Brown (28:31):
The other thing I would say really is and I can
say this because I am offendernumber one I'm so lucky that I
have a great staffing director.
She's taught me a lot.
But prepare for your interview.
Oh, I have an interview atthree.
Okay, I'm going to finish upthis report at two and at 2.30,
(28:53):
I'm going to grab some lunchreally quickly and, okay, I'll
be ready to do the interview atthree.
No, you won't.
You need to sit.
You need to look at the resume.
You need to look at whatevermaterials they've sent in.
You need to figure out what isnot in the resume that you need
to know about what's piquingyour interest so you can dig a
little bit deeper there.
You need to understand whatkind of conversation you're
(29:15):
going to have with this person.
Don't just wing it.
And I've done that and I'm verygood at it, but it's a very bad
thing to do.
I will tell.
I know there are plenty ofbusiness owners sitting out
there going, but I can do itbecause I'm really good at it.
No, I understand you're reallygood at it, but first of all,
the candidate can tell and it'sdisrespectful because you want
(29:37):
them.
When the candidate walks in myoffice or appears on my Zoom, or
whatever the case may be, andthey ask me questions that are
clearly demonstrating that theyhave done zero research on the
company, they know nothing aboutthe company.
They know nothing about me.
I feel like I'm in the middleof Devil Wears Prada, so you
don't know me, you don't knowRunway.
(29:57):
It's like they have no idea.
It is so easy to get thatinformation, to do that research
.
If they haven't done that'sdisrespectful to the situation
that we're in right now.
You're saying you want to workat my company to help us grow
and succeed.
I'm saying I want to invest inyou to help you in your career.
That is, that needs to be arespectful process.
(30:20):
And if you haven't even takenthe time to figure out who we
are and what we do with all ofthe information that we have
available out there on theinternet, then you're being
disrespectful.
And if I haven't taken the timeto read through your resume,
understand what your history hasbeen and ask you questions that
make sense, that really willhelp move our process of getting
(30:41):
to know one another along, I'mbeing disrespectful to you.
So plan.
Pete Newsome (30:48):
That professionalism on both sides
should be given.
It too often is not and we seenot to.
I continue to, I think, blameLinkedIn for a lot of the
current challenges.
By stories Candidate showed up15 minutes late and I gave them
a break because of X, y, z.
That's not real.
No, no one's going to give thecandidate a break for that.
(31:09):
You're being judged Right byyour early actions and because
you have no history and we allfocus on the candidates with
that.
So I joke about the LinkedInposts.
I'm sure you see them.
They're crazy and they're doingeveryone a disservice, but they
get a lot of likes rightBecause it conforms to the least
common denominator and we allwant that.
(31:31):
But those candidates are aterrible disservice.
But we also need to focus, asyou're describing, on the client
side.
They have an obligation totreat the candidate
professionally, to prepare foreverything you're describing,
and that also happens asurprising amount of times,
where it's not okay to show up15 minutes late, right, just
(31:52):
because and it happens I've seenI mean, I have story after
story over the past 20 years ofcandidates who just it's an
instant turnoff and there's noback from it, because that's
their first impression andthat's the lasting one.
And so I love that you'regiving that advice on both sides
, because we too often focus onthe candidates and, yes, they
(32:14):
need to do their part, but youhave some of the employers.
Vicky Brown (32:19):
Again, recruiting is a marketing activity.
You do that to a client.
Would you show up 15 minuteslate to a client just because
it's a power play or something?
No, you would not Be respectful.
Be professional, do your joband then you have a fair shot at
evaluating how they're doingtheir job, how they're doing
their part.
Pete Newsome (32:39):
I love that.
I'm so glad you shared that,because it's a message you can't
hear enough and don't hearenough.
Let me ask you just take alittle bit of a different track
before we wrap up AI in therecruiting process.
Now I'm a fan of AI.
I'm also somewhat terrified ofwhere it's heading.
You have a lot of reasons.
(33:00):
We'll talk about that later.
That's a different show, but itis here and in recruiting I
think it's going to become moreprevalent throughout this year
and beyond.
So what's your take on AI rightnow?
Vicky Brown (33:12):
I'm in love with AI , but I always say please and
thank you.
So when the robots take over,hopefully they will remember
that I was courting.
I'm in love with it but I amterrified.
But I do use it and I'm tryingto get even better and more
proficient with it.
So there are a couple of thingsaround AI, specifically around
recruiting and also as involveshuman resources.
There is lots of legislationthat's happening and a lot some
(33:36):
of it has happened.
Some of it is at the federallevel.
So, again, we don't know what'sgoing to be rolled back, how
it's going to be rolled back orif it's going to be rolled back.
At the same time, variousstates are beefing up their
guidance around the use of AI,particularly in the recruiting
process.
My general philosophy aroundartificial intelligence is it's
(33:59):
perfect, but you need human.
You need, like, humanmanagement of it, so you can't
just say, oh, I'm handling itthrough AI and I don't have to
do anything.
There are definitely thosecases of people who don't look
like they're the right people,but there's something in the way
(34:26):
they wrote, or there'ssomething in the way they
described their communityservice, or there's something in
there that that piques yourinterest.
You call them and you have aconversation with them and
they're really intriguing and itturns out that they're a
wonderful candidate.
It just didn't come through onthe resume.
The keyword wasn't there.
You're just looking forkeywords.
You can miss those people.
I know we've talked a lot aboutpeople self-selecting and being
(34:48):
specific around what theirrequirements are, but there are
those moments and you don'treally want to.
You want to minimize the chanceof you missing those moments.
On the legislative front, though, you have to be careful,
because AI is not how do I putthis?
There is not a guarantee thatthere's not some bias in there.
(35:08):
So if you're just using AI tohandle all of the first and
second level, go rounds ofsorting resumes probably not a
great idea.
I love the idea where you thecandidate doesn't even get the
link to apply until they've doneX, y and Z, because again, then
they are self-selecting out.
(35:28):
Then you have people who arenot going to follow instructions
, but it's not AI looking for aspecific keyword.
If you are going to do that,then make sure that, whatever
keywords you're looking at, youhave a broad range of them and
it's worth it sometimes,depending on how much you're
going to use AI in yourrecruiting process.
(35:49):
Honestly and I say this probablyway too often for my clients,
but I think you should probablytalk to labor council just to
make sure you've dotted your I'sand crossed your T's, make sure
that you've had a professionalsay this process passes muster,
and then put that in the fileand hang on to it if anyone
asked the question because thenyou've done your due diligence.
(36:10):
It's very complicated right now.
It's going to get morecomplicated as more legislation
comes down and more pushbackcomes from users, because it is
a tremendous time saver and,when done right, the platforms
are getting better.
They're improving.
They're not perfect yet.
They still hallucinate All ofthat still happens but they're
getting better and so it's sucha fluid situation that you
(36:34):
really have to pay very closeattention and, depending on how
much you're going to use AI inthe process, you really need to
know that you have the backupthat you need to support that.
Pete Newsome (36:45):
I agree with everything you said.
My first-hand experiences overmany years is everything we
could say about candidates.
You can say there's a similarstory to be told on the employer
side and since we sit in themiddle, like you do, you get to
see both of these things.
And almost very few people aregood at writing resumes.
(37:08):
And, yeah, just like there'svery few good job descriptions
out there currently and that'sokay.
If we judge candidates on thequality of their resume, we we
brought most of them and so I II don't get hung up on that.
For the same reason, I don'tget hung up on job descriptions.
I just assume it's not going tobe very good.
And if you use that proponent,that's the cover of the book and
(37:32):
the book has to tell or thecover has to tell enough of the
story that I'm going to want toopen the book.
Right, but beyond that you'reprobably not.
You don't need to be apotential resume writer as a
candidate.
You need to be great at what itis.
You do whatever that is and itjust needs to get past that
first level.
So if there's any takeaway fromour conversation today for
(37:53):
whoever is listening, you havetwo people who've been doing
this a long time.
Saying get to the individuals,I think is really what we're
both talking about, and I loveeverything you've said in that
regard, because it's my livedexperience that you don't want
to rely on things like ascreening process or AI and I
(38:15):
love it too, and it's not goingaway and we have to use it,
jarred, ban it or get leftbehind.
But you have to give the needto service and get to the
individual, and as soon as wecan do that, then we're going to
be a lot better off.
But it takes a commitment oftime by the individual, which is
what's needed in order to.
(38:36):
I'm going to invest my time inyou.
To recruit you for this job,you have to show your
willingness.
I'm going to consider as acandidate going to work for a
company.
They should show their interestin me as a candidate.
We're filling that role withthe right, with the right person
, and that's much easier saidthan done.
Vicky Brown (38:51):
And if you could, if you want to.
Pete Newsome (38:52):
That's like a beautiful world to live in.
Vicky Brown (38:55):
I have a little pro tip for my fellow business
owners and business leaders.
I have a little pro tip for myfellow business owners and
business leaders.
I have a small business, youhave a small.
We're small business owners.
We know what the day looks like.
Usually it's sitting on ourhead from the moment we start
until the moment we're done inthe evening.
But you don't have to do it allyourself.
I know we've talked a lot aboutwhat the responsibility and
(39:20):
accountability is on the hiringmanager or on the business owner
side.
I know what your calendar lookslike.
It is there.
You haven't gotten.
Don't have a spare second.
I understand that.
And now I'm coming along going.
I want you to sit back andthink about copywriting a job
posting, because it's amarketing exercise.
(39:41):
So I totally get that Exactly.
But the thing that we alwayshave to remember is we are not
doing this alone.
Part of our DNA asentrepreneurs is to charge
forward and get it done, nomatter what we keep forgetting.
You can delegate, you can gethelp, you can get support.
(40:02):
So use the expertise that'saround you, use your team.
Let someone else do that firstdraft of the career pathing and
you can come in and do edits.
You don't have to do it allbecause, if the odds are, if the
choices are, either I'm goingto try to make time to get it
done or I'm not going to do itat all.
(40:24):
You're not going to do it atall.
So use your team, use expertslike your firm.
Really get out there and usethe resources that are.
Be resourceful, use theresources that are available for
you, because it's critical thatyou get this kind of thing done
for your business.
It's going to improve yourbusiness.
It's going to improve thequality of the candidates that
(40:44):
you ultimately hire, it's goingto improve the lives of your
team and they are going to makeyou stand on the shoulders of
your team.
They are going to make yourbusiness or break it.
Pete Newsome (40:53):
So do everything you can for them Great advice
and I'm sure that the messageresonates with more than we can
even think of.
There's no doubt about it.
Thank you so much for your time.
Before we go, just give me aprofile of who your ideal client
is to work with, so who shouldcall you and what point your
(41:14):
contact information and shownotes and make sure everyone has
access to that.
But that's your ideal profileof company to work with and can
benefit from your service.
Vicky Brown (41:23):
Thank you.
We actually work with clientsnationwide.
We're located in California sowe know all the California
weirdness and we have a bunch ofclients in New York, so we know
the New York weirdness too.
But we work all over the nationand, generally speaking,
clients that have 100 or feweremployees are a great target for
us, because that's where thingsget a little complicated.
(41:46):
We have a bunch of clients thatare 40 people, 20 people, 30
people, so we're on the low endas well as the higher end.
Once they get around 100, itusually is helpful to have
someone in-house and then we cansupport that person.
To have someone in-house andthen we can support that person.
But 100 or less probably.
I would say our very sweetestof the sweet spot would be
around 40, 50, like that,because 50 is where a bunch of
(42:07):
labor laws kick in, but theycount the people differently, so
you might think you're at 45and you might really be at 50.
So that range is really.
We can provide a lot, a greatdeal of value at that level.
Pete Newsome (42:19):
Perfect and just through this conversation you
and I didn't know each otherprior to today.
I have a lot of confidencesaying you are someone that
anyone should be verycomfortable reaching out to.
You just tell someone who hasthe right knowledge, right depth
of knowledge, and I've reallyenjoyed this conversation and
(42:39):
hope that we get a chance to doit again, because your
experience today just speaks foritself with how you answer
these questions today, and Ican't thank you enough for it.
Thank you very much.
Vicky Brown (42:50):
Oh, my goodness, Thank you for the kind words and
thank you so much.
This has really been a greatchat and we have a little gift
for your.
I'll give you the informationfor the show notes.
But we have a little gift foryour audience.
They can get a little kind ofultimate HR workflow and
hopefully that'll help them getthrough their day.
Pete Newsome (43:06):
Wonderful, we look forward to sharing that For
sure.
So, vicki, one more time, thankyou again and have a great rest
of the day, lovely.
Thank you, you too.
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