October 13, 2023 • 39 mins
Ready to revolutionize your recruitment approach? Prepare to tap into the often-overlooked power of soft skills as Pete Newsome and Ricky Baez guide you on redefining recruitment. This episode promises many insights into hiring based on intangible attributes and how they often carry more value than technical skills, particularly as one ascends the corporate hierarchy.
Imagine discovering a candidate's emotional intelligence, teamwork skills, and cultural fit without stepping on legal landmines or encouraging discrimination. Pete and Ricky have got you covered. They shed light on balancing technical qualifications and soft skills during the hiring process. Their conversation covers the benefits and drawbacks of assigning projects to potential employees during the recruitment process and the potential rewards of hiring freelancers for specific roles.
The discussion doesn't stop there. They explore interview techniques to help you assess a candidate's soft skills without crossing legal boundaries or perpetuating discrimination. Ricky shares insights on the power of behavioral questions, the pitfalls of relying too heavily on resumes, and not forgetting the importance of professional references in painting a picture of candidates' past performance. Get ready to redefine recruitment with us and make better-informed hiring decisions. Embark on this enlightening chat to transform your hiring landscape.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and this isyour source for all things
hiring, staffing and recruiting.
I'm joined today once again byRicky Baez.
Ricky, how are you this morning?
Ricky Baez (00:11):
It's October.
I love it.
This is my second favoritemonth of the year.
Second favorite what's yourfavorite?
December, Come on.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
Christmas has to be yes.
Ricky Baez (00:18):
Yes, of course.
Look, I'm Puerto Rican.
So coquito patele spendingpeople who are Puerto Rican
understand what I just said.
Google it, trust me, it's work,safe.
It's some good stuff during theholidays.
Pete Newsome (00:28):
Ricky, we usually take a few minutes to get off
track, but today we're going.
We're going right there, rightfrom the start.
Ricky Baez (00:36):
Right through it.
But let's get back on track,because we're not here to talk
about Puerto Rican cuisine orChristmas.
We're here to talk aboutspecific techniques for
evaluating character andpotential, hiring for soft
skills, right.
Pete Newsome (00:48):
Hiring for soft skills.
It's the one thing thateveryone should feel good about.
That's going to keep AI androbots from stealing our jobs
right, that seems to be thetopic.
Ricky Baez (01:00):
That's right.
Yeah, little clippy Clippy fromMicrosoft is going to take our
job one day.
Pete Newsome (01:05):
Well, look, there's a lot of things that
automation can do.
There are a lot of things, ofcourse, as we're all
experiencing right now, that AIcan do, but one of the things
that I don't know how it canever do is really assess soft
skills at a deep level, and Ithink, who knows?
I never say never, right, butthis is what differentiates a
(01:28):
human recruiter, a good one,from a machine trying to match
skills is what are those softskills?
Things that you may be on aresume but you really have to
get a feel for someone in person.
So how do you, how do you thinkof soft skills?
How would you define those?
Ricky Baez (01:45):
I would define it as more of emotional intelligence.
How do you deal with otherhuman beings?
How do you influence otherhuman beings?
A machine is easy.
You put in a code.
The machine does what the codesays.
But when it comes tointeracting with another human
being that you're going to beworking with, you need a
different, particular set ofskills for you to be able to get
(02:05):
the talents that that personwas hired to do.
So to me, it's all about thehuman interaction and how well
or not good you use it.
Pete Newsome (02:13):
That's a great way to phrase it.
I mean, it's it.
To me it's the whole of who youare.
Right, what, what is this?
Okay, it's great that Ricky hasall of the qualifications and
background on on his resume todo the job, but is Ricky going
to be someone I want to interactwith?
Is Ricky going to be consistent?
(02:34):
Is he going to be agreeable andenjoyable and motivated and
driven and all of these thingsthat you just can't grab from a
resume, right?
You have to really see who thisperson is on the inside.
Ricky Baez (02:46):
That's right, because on the resume it shows
what you have accomplished.
It shows your technicalabilities, but it doesn't really
show how you accomplish it.
It doesn't really show how youdeploy those technical abilities
.
And this is what we're lookingto find out when trying to
decide a person's soft skills,the how.
How do you do this, how do youdo that?
Pete Newsome (03:06):
That's right.
So some examples of soft skillsright.
Some additional communication,teamwork, organizational skills,
leadership skills right,Because so balance out against
the hard skills, which, again,are easy to quantify in a
different way your technicalabilities, the degree and
education that you have, theprofessional experience that
(03:28):
you've been exposed to, thetools that you know how to use,
those are hard skills mucheasier to define and quantify on
a resume.
So what we're talking aboutreally today is how do we, how
do we recruit for soft skills?
How do we pick those things outfrom one person over another,
when the resumes andprofessional background looks
(03:50):
similar?
But we know working with personA could be vastly different
than working with person B, evenif they look the same on paper.
Ricky Baez (03:58):
And this is scary, pete, because I do have students
and I do have clients that Icoach on this because they focus
just on the technical aspect,which that's something you need
to focus on when you're goingout to and finding talent.
Obviously, they have to meetthe minimum qualification.
But let me paint you this storywhat if you have 20 engineers
and you need 21,?
(04:19):
All the 20 engineers get alonggreat and this 21st engineer
that you're bringing in becausethe previous one retired, right,
but you're bringing this oneperson I got five PhDs, all
these credentials but they don'tget along with anybody.
They don't know how tocommunicate with anybody.
Yes, on paper, his skill setlooks great, but if you bring
that person into theorganization, you run the risk
(04:40):
of messing up the well oldmachine you already have going
just because this person doesnot know how to get along with
other people.
Pete Newsome (04:46):
And it's not a one size fits all thing, right.
So you can say, for example,every company who needs to hire
someone to do WordPressdevelopment, for example, needs
to hire someone who has abackground and experience and
skill in WordPress developmentright.
But it could be a vastlydifferent position where one
(05:09):
need might be for someone towork autonomously, to come up
with the ideas from scratch, tojust take a project from start
to finish and complete it as asolo effort, where in another
scenario, as you were describingjust a minute ago, you might
need someone who works well as ateam, who can fit a very
(05:29):
specific role within a biggerpicture.
Those are very different jobsto hire for and they're very
different people you should hirefor those jobs, and that is
where soft skills really comeinto play.
Ricky Baez (05:42):
Would it be safe to say, Pete, that the higher up
you go in an organization like,the more people you have
responsibility over, the biggerthe soft skills you need to have
?
Is that a fair assessment?
Pete Newsome (05:55):
I'd say different soft skills right, because that
if you consider things likeleadership right, organizational
skills management, empathy, forexample, then great, but I
don't know that I would use alot of those words to describe
Elon Musk at times.
Ricky Baez (06:16):
That's a good point.
Pete Newsome (06:18):
So nobody's higher up than he is in the
professional world.
But I think he probablyrealizes and I have no idea what
his management style is reallybut I suspect those aren't the
kind of things he stops.
If we look at being empatheticand cultivating, making sure
everyone's feelings aren't hurtand that sort of thing, those
(06:39):
are valuable things for leadersto be able to do in many cases.
But wouldn't be surprised if hehas someone else worrying about
those details on his team right?
Ricky Baez (06:49):
Well, don't you think the way he's acting right
now makes the point?
It makes the point that that'snecessary, right, because I
think he would have a betterfollow.
I mean, I can't say, I justknow what I see on TV.
I think he would have a betterfollowing and more people who
will listen to him with aninfluential ear, because right
now I'm venturing to guesspeople to listen to him with an
(07:09):
ear of fear.
Right, I don't want to lose myjob, right, but is there an
influence there?
And I think that.
And no, actually, I don't thinkI know that's what I meant.
When you're at the top, youhave to have a different level
of influence to the people belowyou, because now, not only do
you have to know be able to talkto the people at the bottom
lines, but you also have to talkto the people in the middle,
(07:31):
executive, leadership and so onand so forth.
And that's what I'm thinkingthat the soft skills are more
prudent at the second level thananywhere else.
Pete Newsome (07:39):
But I'll say is a general statement.
Sure, but every organization isso different.
I wouldn't want to put that inone category by itself and agree
to all of it, because if youare looking to build a high
performance organization, onethat's intense think of a, you
know, wolf of Wall Street typeof scenario almost right Then
(08:03):
you would want a different kindof leader, a different set of
soft skills.
So that's really where thebasis for this lies is
understanding what soft skillsare needed in that particular
environment and then hireaccordingly.
One story that I always thinkof in a conversation like this
is years ago we had a softwaredeveloper join a team.
(08:24):
It wasn't the joint, the teamof 20 that you described.
It was a team of four.
This is a fourth person to join.
Someone had left for whateverreason.
We recruited a candidate intothis role and they all set in a
room together and on thiscandidate's first day he walks
in and the lights are off in theroom and he turned the lights
on.
One of the other developerswent and turned the light off,
(08:46):
and this went back and forth allday and he called us at the end
and he said I don't think I canwork here.
They work in the dark, theydon't communicate with each
other, nobody interacts.
So if you were interviewing forthat role, you should say Are
you comfortable working insilence, even though you're with
other people?
Can you just, you know, is thata good fit for you?
(09:06):
And it doesn't.
It's not a matter of one beingbetter or worse.
I mean, most people would saythe lights on are better, but it
was what was needed in thatparticular situation.
So knowing the culture, knowingwhat soft skills are needed,
that to me is step one in thisprocess.
Ricky Baez (09:25):
Especially the culture.
Right, because it's.
If you're, if you're tasked tohire the next engineer, the next
supervisor, the next, the next,whatever for the organization,
you have just enoughresponsibility to make sure the
person is it's, it's fitsculturally with the and I mean
the organizational culture, nota personal culture the fits, the
organization culture, the bestway possible, the same as the
(09:48):
skillset needed to be successfulin this role.
So the recruiter really has tofind that perfect balance of
both to mesh as well as possiblewith the team that they're
about to work with.
Pete Newsome (09:59):
And I'll tell you the way I took job requirements
over the years and would stilldo today If I were in that mode,
like I used to be.
And you, you needed me to hiresomeone for you.
And you, if you were a newmanager that I'm working with
for the first time, I wouldspend a little time enough time
on tell me what you need, ricky.
Hard skills, right.
(10:20):
What job do they need to beable to accomplish for you?
What are the goals andobjectives of the role?
Of course I want to know allthat, but I'm much more
interested in who you need.
Give me the person that's goingto be a good fit, and those
soft skills I would say matterat some level, greater than 50%
for most jobs.
Ricky Baez (10:41):
And Pete, I have to say this because right now, for
all the HR people listening,right now, their heads are
exploding.
Yes, we are.
We are going to be fair andconcise in who we bring in,
because in the HR world, pete Idon't know if you've seen this
this is a big thing as far asbeing careful and making sure
somebody is culturally fit foran organization, because then
(11:02):
you might start dabbling intoillegal water.
So that's not what we're sayinghere.
What we're saying here is theminimum qualifications has to be
met.
Once that is met, then let'stake a look at the soft skills
needed to be successful in therole.
Pete Newsome (11:16):
Give me more from that.
Tell me where you're concernedlies with this.
Where am I making you nervous?
Ricky Baez (11:22):
Well, no, not because I, because I know what
you mean.
What it will make other peoplenervous is if you focus so much
on the culturally fitperspective, there could be that
you're picking somebody onsomething that's not a necessary
or a needed skill settechnically for the role.
So if you get, if you take youreyes of what is technically
(11:43):
necessary for the role, you runthe risk of running into other
protected areas.
What if you take your eyes offthat?
You start figuring out somebodyhas to be more charismatic,
somebody has to have more energy?
Right, let's focus on energy,right.
Because, if you want, if youlook at the people with just
high energy and you focus juston that, chances are you're
going to hire people that areyounger, right, and now you just
(12:04):
violated the ADA andorganization just getting
trouble for that.
Pete Newsome (12:07):
So that's that's an interesting.
It's an interesting road to godown and this is off topic so I
don't want to spend much time onit.
Sorry, sorry, but that that isan it to me.
That's conflating things, thatthat shouldn't be confused.
Right, if I need someone withenergy, if I, if I'm hiring a
salesperson, right, I wantsomeone who is enthusiastic for
(12:30):
it.
They have an outgoingpersonality, they're upbeat,
they do have energy.
I know that's a necessary softscale.
Those are necessary soft skillsto be successful in many sales
roles.
I'm not going to apologize forrecruiting for that Now.
If someone wants to say yeah,but that's potentially
discriminating on age, I thinkthat is completely unfounded and
(12:52):
not in one having nothing to dowith the other.
There's a lot of superenergetic, jetic 80 year olds.
There's a lot of lazy 20 yearolds, right, agreed, so so do
you.
So tell me where that you know.
Back to the your comment thatmakes HR people's head explode
Is is it because they'reconcerned that those things
(13:14):
aren't easy to to separate?
I guess I'm not completelyfollowing.
Ricky Baez (13:20):
No, because because here's the thing.
Now, you're right that's goingto go nowhere if all of your
tools, if, if, if, you've doneeverything you need to do to
make sure you bring that personon board, but from a legal
perspective, you're going tospend about 20 grand to prove
yourself right.
So let's avoid that altogether.
Right, avoid that altogether.
I'm not saying that that thisis going to lead us down that
(13:42):
road, because, again, you haveto have a balance with it, right
?
And all I'm saying is it'sreally easy to get away from the
technical aspect and focus onthings that are not in this
technical necessity for the job,and you can easily go down that
rabbit hole where thisorganization did.
This organization wanted to,wanted to bring in I'm not going
to mention the name, but it'sall over the news they wanted to
(14:04):
bring in all newer employeesand they were all focusing just
in Gen Z's right because Gen Z'shave a different point of view
when it comes to work.
Well, you know who's not a Gen Zpeople over 40.
Right, they, they're not Gen Zand a group of them got together
like this is not fair and theylost $20 million in that lawsuit
(14:26):
.
So it's that case is different.
But if all I'm saying is as arecruiter, let's make sure the
balance is there.
Focus on the technical aspect,but then, just equally as
important, you got to focus onthe soft skills to have that
perfect ingredient in the bowlto make that cake.
I had to bring it back to food,sorry.
Pete Newsome (14:45):
So if I'm, if I'm, if you're my client and I'm
looking to recruit for you, ifyou're the hiring manager, give
me some, some insight then onwhere you think that that line
becomes too close to beingcrossed.
If I'm saying all right, ricky,you've given me the technical
(15:05):
requirements, the hard skillsfor the job, right?
We'll just continue to use theexample of a software developer.
Since I brought it, up earlierand I'm like great, now let's
get into the.
Who you need to hire.
Tell me what you know.
The soft let's talk about thesoft skills.
Do they need to?
Are they going to work as partof a team or are they going to
be autonomous?
I mean, that's a huge thing tostart with to have a bit as a
(15:29):
basis for understanding.
Now, that's that's reallyimportant to me as a recruiter.
Does that make youuncomfortable?
You think that gives you adangerous spot?
Ricky Baez (15:39):
No, it doesn't, because it's.
I'm being specific as to whatwe need.
Let's say, I need two positions, same skills, same everything.
One of them is working bythemselves in a room for eight
hours, right An analyst.
And the other one works with agroup of people.
Obviously, the job descriptionis going to look the same from a
technical perspective, but thesoft skills are going to be very
(16:01):
different, right?
Because I'm not going to careas much for the soft skills of
the person who's working in theroom by themselves if I'm the
only person they need to talk to, versus somebody who's got to
deal with the rest of the team,has to present in front of the
executive leadership and has totalk to our clients, right?
That's a completely differentset of soft skills that I'm
going to need for that secondperson that I would for the
(16:22):
first person.
So that this interaction so far, so far, so good.
Pete Newsome (16:27):
Okay, so then, where do you have then concerns?
Because a part of screening forsoft skills is you could get
into the world of behavioralinterviews, and that's something
that I think is important too.
Do you feel that that is also arisky road to go?
Ricky Baez (16:44):
down?
No, because we have me as a, asa, as a business owner, I do
have to write to.
I have to write to make surethat I vet the right person for
the right role.
If I'm going to pay money on aweekly basis for this person and
return for talent, I got tomake sure it's the right person.
So so far, with behavioralinterviews, I want to make sure
(17:06):
this guy's not going to smacksomebody over the head because
the Phillies won, right.
I want to make sure WillSyracuse going on, folks, in
case you haven't heard, philliesare doing good, so that's
important.
If you don't do that, if youdon't look for that and the guy
actually does that, beatsomebody, the question is going
to be how?
(17:26):
How did you check for this inthe interview process, right?
Did you check references Right?
So we got to watch ourselvesfor that as well.
Again, I'm saying we need abalance, and the issue comes
into place when you don't lookat the, the technical skills,
and you only focus on theculture of fit.
That's when you become, whenyou have an issue.
Pete Newsome (17:46):
So let me make sure we're on the same page.
When the technical fit to me isthe easier of things to assess,
absolutely Right.
So I'm we're not talking aboutthat today because we're
assuming that they're.
That matches there, right?
We're looking to go beyond that.
So, when I'm thinking ofbehavioral questions or soft
(18:07):
skills, I want to know how youresponded to adversity.
I want to know how you manageda project.
I want to know how youinteracted with the team.
These are all the things that Iwant to find out from you as a
candidate.
So I'm going to go with theopposite way of what you said,
right?
So this will really make yourHR head explode, perhaps.
(18:29):
I'm going to say you're probablydoing everyone a disservice if
you don't screen and recruit forsoft skills, because you're
going to end up with both sidesunhappy, right?
So I think we're starting tosee a lot of people who are not
good at the same level, but withboth sides unhappy, right?
So I think we're so afraid attimes of let's not get close to
(18:55):
a line that could get us sued,right?
I mean, look, no one, we're notgoing to discriminate against
anyone.
We're not going to get anywherenear talking about protected
classes.
To me that is such a far cryfrom what we're talking about.
So I it catches my attention,and so we're a little off topic
when there's a red flag thrownup for that kind of thinking,
(19:21):
because I think, no, no, no, nowwe're, just now we're, we're
bringing something unnecessaryinto the conversation.
Ricky Baez (19:27):
Well, well, pete, that's what makes this this what
you and I have.
You're such a great team, right?
I don't want you thinking aboutthat.
I want you thinking aboutbringing the neck, the best
person on board.
If you focus on that me as asHR okay, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna equate this to a car.
Okay, I'm, it's you're.
You're trying to get to Miamiand you're going 180 miles an
(19:48):
hour and I'm here to tell you, Iwant you to get to Miami, but
go, go the speed limit.
Right, that's all I'm saying.
Right, you focus on driving toyour destination.
I, for example, you focus onbringing the best person on
board and I will focus to makesure that we do this in a way
that minimize legal liability.
That's why this is such a greatteam, and that that that is all
(20:11):
I'm saying is that my concernonly comes into play when the
technical abilities or thetechnical skillset are not
looked at.
But I know you and I assumethat that is looked at.
But I guarantee, if peoplelistening right now they're like
, oh my god, you can't do it, no, wait a minute.
We have, we have to balance it.
If we balance it, you're gonnabe okay.
Pete Newsome (20:31):
Understood.
Fair enough.
So we're not discriminating,but we are drilling down to the
things that matter, right?
So let me go to another area ofassessment for soft skills
psychometric testing.
What's your general take onthat?
I know there's a lot oforganizations that are
completely bought into theconcept.
(20:52):
There's others that neverconsider doing it, and what
we're talking about with that isif skills testing, aptitude
testing, personality testing, tosee if you are a good fit for
the role.
Now, if anything, to me, attimes when I see this taking
place, I think, oh boy, that'sletting you know we're back to
letting a robot of sorts right,make a decision.
(21:12):
But what's your take on thevalue of that and how it comes
into play in interviewing?
Ricky Baez (21:19):
I value those kinds of testings only if it's used as
a tool to make a decision withit to bring somebody on board,
not if it's the only decidingfactor.
It has to be in a plate full ofother tools to help make a
suggestion over that the personshould be brought on board,
right.
So I agree, because then look,I know it's.
(21:42):
I'm willing to get some of themost famous serial killers that
America or the world knows werefreaking geniuses right because
the IQ was high.
They just have this little fixthat needs to be.
You know, this itch that needsto be scratched.
What I'm saying is is that froman HR perspective or a
leadership perspective, I'mperfectly okay with that.
(22:03):
Only if it's used as a tool,combined with other tools, to
help the human being make adecision, then I'm okay with it.
Pete Newsome (22:10):
Got it okay, fair enough.
So let me ask you this is alittle bit once again off topic,
but it's something that I'venoticed a lot on LinkedIn lately
Comments being made aboutcompanies that ask their
candidates to do projects, to dowork and we've had that come up
at times over the years withthe client asking for creative
position, for example, askingsomeone to show do a little
(22:34):
project.
Now, it's one thing if it takesa very short time, but some of
these examples I've seen onLinkedIn are companies asking
candidates to spend hours andhours doing something without
compensating them for I'm not afan of that at all.
I think that's a.
I don't think that'sappropriate.
But do you see that as a dangerzone at all?
I don't know why we're goingdanger zone today, but that's
(22:56):
where we are.
We need Kenny Loggins.
Ricky Baez (22:58):
Kenny Loggins playing no, look, I don't see
that as a legal issue.
I do see that as the best way,the best way to push your best
candidates out of the runnings.
Your best candidates are notgonna have time for that.
They're not gonna have time forthat.
They're gonna go to wherepeople respect their time right
(23:20):
and really get down to whatreally press tax what needs to
happen for the person to behired.
You know who's gonna stickaround with you to go through
that test to make sure they gotthe job the people who have no
chance anywhere else.
So, from my perspective, if youcan do it in 10 minutes and in
10 minutes you can determine thecandidates, technical skills,
(23:41):
by all means go for it.
Couple of hours, no, you'regonna push your best people away
.
Pete Newsome (23:46):
Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it and
that's for that reason alone.
It's a dangerous road to godown.
It's really.
It's also a bit of adisrespectful thing at times to
the individual, but if acompany's willing to compensate
for the time at an hourly rate,I think that's appropriate.
If you really need to see thatwork to make an assessment, it
(24:08):
could be a win-win if someone'sotherwise not employed and I'll
give you a real world example ofhow I've done.
That is when we hirefreelancers for project work,
then I ask them to give me asample.
Let's start with one smallproject Now.
I'm going to pay you for it atyour hourly rate, but it's a way
(24:31):
of finding out whether there'sa good fit in real time right
Real world, with something thatI will be asking you to do at
scale.
Let's do it in a small sampleand see how your quality was
right.
So I do that pretty regularlyon the freelance side, but
(24:52):
always compensating theindividual for it.
Ricky Baez (24:54):
Well, you know who does it a lot.
The labor market right.
Well, trades welders right.
I've helped an organizationrecruit a welder and I love
their process.
They have two pieces of iron orsteel and they're like, hey,
weld this together.
They have all the tools there,all the tools are there right,
and they know how to turn thingson and put and you just let
(25:15):
them do it safely.
Again, that takes 20 minutes.
That's perfect.
Why not put them through thatso you can see whether you can
do?
Pete Newsome (25:22):
it Absolutely Okay .
So we're talking abouttechniques to evaluate these
soft skills, right?
Group interviews, groupinterviews Now I'm not talking
panel interviews.
That's different.
I know what you mean.
Maybe we can talk about thesethings separately.
Group interview hey, you're oneof three candidates, five
candidates.
Let's sit you down altogetherand see how you react.
(25:45):
I think that's weird.
I don't.
It's not something we encounterrarely, if ever, do we
encounter that In our staffingworld?
What's your take on groupinterviews?
Ricky Baez (25:59):
If I'm looking for somebody, a salesperson, who I
need this person to command thegroup of people, to convince
other people to go the other way.
I will love to do a groupinterview because I'll put a lot
of A players together, right,and we'll see who comes out on
top.
We'll see who's the one who'sgonna sway somebody from one
place to the other.
(26:19):
From a sales perspective, thatis awesome, that is excellent,
right?
Because what happens ifsomebody has all the schooling,
all the certification?
Because, remember, schoolingand education, it's just proof
that you have the education youwanna see, proof that they can
use it right?
So if you have somebody in thatgroup that's an introvert,
doesn't talk, it's afraid totalk to people, you're not gonna
(26:41):
put them in a sales position,so they're gonna fail,
regardless of what kind ofcredentials they have.
Pete Newsome (26:45):
So for that example, I would do that and I
would, as a professionalsalesperson, which I've been for
most of my career, I wouldargue that you're gonna lose the
A players in that scenario too.
You think so?
Yeah, no way, I'm playing thatgame with someone I know it's
not gonna happen.
I don't mind a panel interview.
(27:08):
Go ahead, line everyone up,give me your best, let's see how
I stand up in that situation.
I think that's a much morerelevant way to assess how
someone's going to do then toput them in a completely
unnatural environment.
That's not, in my opinion, atrue assessment of how they'll
(27:30):
do in their job.
It's just almost mean.
I don't know.
Ricky Baez (27:35):
It's just.
How is that that's not mean?
How is that mean?
Pete Newsome (27:40):
Yeah, it's again.
I think it's a bit of adisrespectful approach and
that's just my own take.
I'm not fundamentally opposedto it happening.
I just I don't think that's thebest way to treat individuals
who are interviewing for a role.
To put them in a cattle callsituation and line them up.
It's just not what I would wantto subject someone to.
(28:02):
And I'll tell you maybe that'sjust my own personal take I'd
draw the line there.
I wouldn't subject myself tothat either.
I'd say, hey look, you know,you don't you know.
I'm just.
I have too much respect for myown ability to subject myself to
that, so Fair enough.
Ricky Baez (28:20):
I mean, I've done that a series in the past and
we've got it down to the pointthat we knew the type of person
we needed to hire and we gotlong story short.
We knew we needed used carsalesmen because they had the
best gift of no.
Seriously, they have the bestgift of GAB.
They can talk to anybody andsell them anything.
(28:41):
And the best way for us to seehow that skillset come out, put
them in a group of people andhave them talk about a blender
and then see what happens tothis blender right it's.
It worked out great.
Pete Newsome (28:51):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
So look.
So sometimes interviewingadding some gimmicky things to
it like that right, sell me apencil.
It's a different style, it's adifferent approach.
It's not one that I'vesubscribed to, because you're
not hiring me to sell a pencil,right.
You're hiring me to buildrelationships, to build rapport,
(29:14):
to understand what someonefinds valuable and then be able
to apply our solution to it.
That's what you're hiring me todo, and I don't think those
situations are necessarily goodbreeding grounds for it.
But I'm thinking we're talkingjust from a sales perspective.
Maybe there's other groupinterview scenarios that would
make more sense.
None of them immediately cometo mind.
I just haven't encountered itthat much either, thankfully.
Ricky Baez (29:38):
Now here's the thing , Pete Now.
And if from a recruiter'sperspective, if you really want
to find out who that person is,you do have to ask those
behavioral questions.
But instead of asking, hey, howwill you handle ex-situation
which anybody can make up, thebest thing a recruiter can do is
to ask the candidate to giveyou an example of a situation
(30:00):
that A happened and how to B youthe candidate respond to it Now
, is there a possibility theycould lie?
Yeah, there is.
There's a small possibilitythat they can get some good lies
in there, but the majority ofthe time you're going to get
people's real responses becausethey believe that's the real
thing they have to say, andsometimes they say the right
things.
And how they handle it.
(30:21):
They were really diplomaticabout it.
They tried to understandpeople's rationale.
Now you start to see theinterpersonal skills.
You start to see how thisperson handles people who
disagree with them.
And especially in situationswhere everybody's violating
policy, how do you stand up tocall everybody out on that?
(30:42):
Those are questions you need toask.
Pete Newsome (30:44):
So here's a question for you.
A candidate is asked a questionlike that, a situational
question, and they make up.
Ricky Baez (30:50):
you said they're probably going to lie, or are
you?
Pete Newsome (30:57):
okay with that If it satisfied the ultimate goal
of the candidate to get the joboffer right?
Are you okay if they gave you alie which was the right answer
to the question, versus givingyou a poor answer to the
question which was a truth?
Because what's your take onthat?
Ricky Baez (31:17):
My take is my no.
No, I'll tell you.
I'll tell you.
My take on that is that if youtell me a good story on how you
will handle something, that'seven worse, because that means
you're telling me you know howto do it, you know what needs to
be done, but I want evidencethat you did it Right.
Pete Newsome (31:34):
I want evidence, right, but I think in so many
cases when these interviewquestions arise and the
candidate is not prepared forthem, so on, on Zengegg, our
career advice site, we have alist of common interview
questions that it could be askedfor any job title.
We have 70 of them, 70 of themwith an explanation for how to
(31:58):
answer what the interviewer islooking for.
Here's some, you know, here'sthe approach you should take 70.
That's a big number.
Those are the most quote mostcommon.
So, even though every candidateshould go there and read
through them to prepare for aninterview, there's going to be
71 or 72 or 73 that are just outof left field, right the you
(32:20):
know sell me the pencil typething, and all of those are.
Here's a manhole cover.
It was some Microsoft questionthat I used to see all the time
from years ago.
It's a round male, a manholecover and a square hole.
How do you make it fit orsomething like that?
Like, and I know thesequestions are asked with a good,
with good intentions, but justbecause a candidate isn't
(32:42):
prepared for your obscurequestion doesn't mean they're
not great, and so I would, youknow, just expect that the more
you kind of ask people tostretch the the, the farther
away you're getting from realityand, like I, keep staying.
Staying your lane generally ishow I feel.
Don't don't ask people to makeup weird stories or to come up
(33:04):
with scenarios that they, youknow they hadn't thought of
ahead of time, or or you'vegiven it.
Ricky Baez (33:09):
Well, I'm not looking for people to make
things up, I'm looking forexperiences.
And if you don't have anexperience and you can't give me
one, I mean, what else am Igoing to go off of Right?
So all right, so you justshowed to me that you don't have
experience in handling thiskind of issue.
I cannot make it.
I'm not going to say this, butI'm not going to make a
determination on whether you'regoing to be a good fit for this
organization or not.
Pete Newsome (33:30):
Well, as long as it's relevant to the
organization, right.
That's why it's got to berelevant.
So the point I was making withthat is don't get cute, Don't
get too cute, because you youlike putting people on the spot
and seeing how they respond.
That's not.
That shouldn't be the goal AT&Tused to do that AT&T used to do
, that.
Ricky Baez (33:45):
They had this whole thing back in the day not now,
where they will look at how yousat, whether you crush your arms
, whether you crush your feetunder the desk.
They will look under the deskand I I was witness to this and
I'm like, why are you lookingfor that?
Because somebody told them thatall these behavior cues would
give you an indication on howthat person is going to be at
work and that that I do notsubscribe to it Because, look, I
(34:07):
can be like this.
You know for for people notwatching, I'm folding my hands
looking standoffice, butsometimes to me, this is how I
listen the best.
It depends on the person.
Pete Newsome (34:17):
So my ankles are crossed right now.
I don't know if that's aproblem.
I don't know what that's a signof that explains a lot.
Ricky Baez (34:23):
Pete, it explains a lot.
Pete Newsome (34:27):
I don't know.
So here's what I do think isuniversally a great idea is to
ask professional references howthe candidate handled those
specific situations, and that'sa great way to assess soft
skills, because you're you'renot looking in.
Let me just close what we weretalking about before by just
(34:49):
adding there's a lot of peoplewho just don't interview well
right, and that's where I Ithink even even great
salespeople may not be great inthat situation.
So always consider that tooright, whether you're you're
trying to force situation orreally get to the answer.
I think the best way to get tothe answer beyond the resume,
(35:11):
beyond our in-personinteractions, is to find out how
you handled these scenarios inthe past, by asking the person
you reported to in the past.
Isn't?
Ricky Baez (35:22):
you.
You said something that caughtmy attention.
Isn't the the idea of notinterviewing?
Well, that in itself gives youa glimpse into how that person's
soft skills are.
Pete Newsome (35:35):
Yes, if you, if, if you're, you're measuring soft
skills like performing underpressure, handling adversity,
that's where you have to look atthe specific job.
I think so.
We.
You mentioned a sales jobbefore.
Okay, yeah, a salesperson doesneed to be able to think on
their feet, respond, adapt.
You asked me a question withsomething I've never experienced
.
That's why my mind goes well,I'm going to give you an answer.
(35:57):
I'm going to give you an answerthat you want because I'm a
salesperson.
That's I'm.
I'm trying to get to the.
I'm trying to close this salein this particular scenario.
That's you extending an offerto me.
So I'm not going to completelyfabricate something, but I'm
going to put a spin on it thatleads down the path that we're
(36:18):
trying.
I'm trying to take you down.
So in in that interviewscenario, great.
So yes, if I'm.
If you're interviewing asalesperson and they don't
respond well to a tough question, you should consider whether
they're they're right for sales.
If you're interviewing anaccountant or a web developer
who doesn't respond well to, hey, let me trick you with this
question and really make youstretch and thank.
(36:40):
I think you're doing thesituation in the individual and
yourself a disservice.
That's really where maybe Ididn't make that point clearly
enough.
So, to the degree that it fitsthe need, yes, interview for
those things, but I would ratherinterview my software.
I've been asking a differentset of questions with my
(37:03):
software developer than I amwith my salesperson.
Ricky Baez (37:06):
Agreed.
Yeah, and that's why it'simportant for the recruiter to
not just have one approach.
You need to have an approachthat matches A the job
description and B the personyou're looking for to fit that
team right.
And you build your questions,you build your entire interview
process around those two factors.
You're going to end up findingthe right person for the team.
(37:27):
But, again, that balance has tobe there.
Going back to that account, andyes, you're right, I'm not
going to ask all these softskills questions, but here's
what I am going to say hey,here's, just press you with a
bunch of numbers, tell me astory.
Pete Newsome (37:39):
Yeah, and we got here in a roundabout way, but
this is this really makes thepoint that got us off track in
the first place, with the headsexploding is when I say who you
need.
It's dependent on the role thatthey're going to play, and so I
want to know I need someone whocan think well on their feet,
(38:00):
right.
I need someone who can dealwith adversity constantly OK,
well, I need the screen forthose things.
Versus, I need someone who canstare at numbers for an extended
period of time and not interactwith other humans, right.
That's what I'm trying to getto with the soft skills.
So, as far as evaluating onsoft skills, ricky, where do you
(38:22):
land?
How important.
Ricky Baez (38:24):
Oh, I am big on it.
I am big on it, I.
I'm on this WhatsApp chat groupwith other HR pros and we help
each other out with differentsituations.
Out of five of us on there, I'mthe only one who I recruit for
minimum qualifications, and thenthe rest is attitude.
Right, it's everybody's likeRicky.
Look, I'm more risk, not atfirst, but I'm more.
(38:47):
I lean on a on the edge morewhen it comes to that, because I
feel that's important.
I feel how people, if you'regoing to spend at least one
third of your day with thesefolks, you have to have some
kind of communication skills andinterpersonal skills, and if I
have a great team, I'm not goingto ruin it with somebody who's
a stick in the mud.
That's just not going to happen, right?
So where, where?
(39:07):
Where I'm at 100 percent we'vegot to look for soft skills, and
100 percent you have to lookfor the for the minimum
qualifications.
You blend those together.
There's your candidate.
Pete Newsome (39:18):
Perfect, and I think that's that's that's how
we should wrap up and be awareof the of the situation, be
conscious of it, but but alsothink through.
Think through anything you'resaying when you're having a
candid conversation withoutwithout question, right?
That's true, that's right, allright.
Well, thanks for listeningtoday, ricky, thank you as
always, and we'll see you nextweek.
Ricky Baez (39:39):
Thank you, folks.
Have a good one.
We're due for Q and a, are wenot?
Pete Newsome (39:42):
We are Q and a.
We are that's coming up.
Ricky Baez (39:45):
Okay, bye, bye, bye.
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and this isyour source for all things
hiring, staffing and recruiting.
I'm joined today once again byRicky Baez.
Ricky, how are you this morning?
Ricky Baez (00:11):
It's October.
I love it.
This is my second favoritemonth of the year.
Second favorite what's yourfavorite?
December, Come on.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
Christmas has to be yes.
Ricky Baez (00:18):
Yes, of course.
Look, I'm Puerto Rican.
So coquito patele spendingpeople who are Puerto Rican
understand what I just said.
Google it, trust me, it's work,safe.
It's some good stuff during theholidays.
Pete Newsome (00:28):
Ricky, we usually take a few minutes to get off
track, but today we're going.
We're going right there, rightfrom the start.
Ricky Baez (00:36):
Right through it.
But let's get back on track,because we're not here to talk
about Puerto Rican cuisine orChristmas.
We're here to talk aboutspecific techniques for
evaluating character andpotential, hiring for soft
skills, right.
Pete Newsome (00:48):
Hiring for soft skills.
It's the one thing thateveryone should feel good about.
That's going to keep AI androbots from stealing our jobs
right, that seems to be thetopic.
Ricky Baez (01:00):
That's right.
Yeah, little clippy Clippy fromMicrosoft is going to take our
job one day.
Pete Newsome (01:05):
Well, look, there's a lot of things that
automation can do.
There are a lot of things, ofcourse, as we're all
experiencing right now, that AIcan do, but one of the things
that I don't know how it canever do is really assess soft
skills at a deep level, and Ithink, who knows?
I never say never, right, butthis is what differentiates a
(01:28):
human recruiter, a good one,from a machine trying to match
skills is what are those softskills?
Things that you may be on aresume but you really have to
get a feel for someone in person.
So how do you, how do you thinkof soft skills?
How would you define those?
Ricky Baez (01:45):
I would define it as more of emotional intelligence.
How do you deal with otherhuman beings?
How do you influence otherhuman beings?
A machine is easy.
You put in a code.
The machine does what the codesays.
But when it comes tointeracting with another human
being that you're going to beworking with, you need a
different, particular set ofskills for you to be able to get
(02:05):
the talents that that personwas hired to do.
So to me, it's all about thehuman interaction and how well
or not good you use it.
Pete Newsome (02:13):
That's a great way to phrase it.
I mean, it's it.
To me it's the whole of who youare.
Right, what, what is this?
Okay, it's great that Ricky hasall of the qualifications and
background on on his resume todo the job, but is Ricky going
to be someone I want to interactwith?
Is Ricky going to be consistent?
(02:34):
Is he going to be agreeable andenjoyable and motivated and
driven and all of these thingsthat you just can't grab from a
resume, right?
You have to really see who thisperson is on the inside.
Ricky Baez (02:46):
That's right, because on the resume it shows
what you have accomplished.
It shows your technicalabilities, but it doesn't really
show how you accomplish it.
It doesn't really show how youdeploy those technical abilities
.
And this is what we're lookingto find out when trying to
decide a person's soft skills,the how.
How do you do this, how do youdo that?
Pete Newsome (03:06):
That's right.
So some examples of soft skillsright.
Some additional communication,teamwork, organizational skills,
leadership skills right,Because so balance out against
the hard skills, which, again,are easy to quantify in a
different way your technicalabilities, the degree and
education that you have, theprofessional experience that
(03:28):
you've been exposed to, thetools that you know how to use,
those are hard skills mucheasier to define and quantify on
a resume.
So what we're talking aboutreally today is how do we, how
do we recruit for soft skills?
How do we pick those things outfrom one person over another,
when the resumes andprofessional background looks
(03:50):
similar?
But we know working with personA could be vastly different
than working with person B, evenif they look the same on paper.
Ricky Baez (03:58):
And this is scary, pete, because I do have students
and I do have clients that Icoach on this because they focus
just on the technical aspect,which that's something you need
to focus on when you're goingout to and finding talent.
Obviously, they have to meetthe minimum qualification.
But let me paint you this storywhat if you have 20 engineers
and you need 21,?
(04:19):
All the 20 engineers get alonggreat and this 21st engineer
that you're bringing in becausethe previous one retired, right,
but you're bringing this oneperson I got five PhDs, all
these credentials but they don'tget along with anybody.
They don't know how tocommunicate with anybody.
Yes, on paper, his skill setlooks great, but if you bring
that person into theorganization, you run the risk
(04:40):
of messing up the well oldmachine you already have going
just because this person doesnot know how to get along with
other people.
Pete Newsome (04:46):
And it's not a one size fits all thing, right.
So you can say, for example,every company who needs to hire
someone to do WordPressdevelopment, for example, needs
to hire someone who has abackground and experience and
skill in WordPress developmentright.
But it could be a vastlydifferent position where one
(05:09):
need might be for someone towork autonomously, to come up
with the ideas from scratch, tojust take a project from start
to finish and complete it as asolo effort, where in another
scenario, as you were describingjust a minute ago, you might
need someone who works well as ateam, who can fit a very
(05:29):
specific role within a biggerpicture.
Those are very different jobsto hire for and they're very
different people you should hirefor those jobs, and that is
where soft skills really comeinto play.
Ricky Baez (05:42):
Would it be safe to say, Pete, that the higher up
you go in an organization like,the more people you have
responsibility over, the biggerthe soft skills you need to have
?
Is that a fair assessment?
Pete Newsome (05:55):
I'd say different soft skills right, because that
if you consider things likeleadership right, organizational
skills management, empathy, forexample, then great, but I
don't know that I would use alot of those words to describe
Elon Musk at times.
Ricky Baez (06:16):
That's a good point.
Pete Newsome (06:18):
So nobody's higher up than he is in the
professional world.
But I think he probablyrealizes and I have no idea what
his management style is reallybut I suspect those aren't the
kind of things he stops.
If we look at being empatheticand cultivating, making sure
everyone's feelings aren't hurtand that sort of thing, those
(06:39):
are valuable things for leadersto be able to do in many cases.
But wouldn't be surprised if hehas someone else worrying about
those details on his team right?
Ricky Baez (06:49):
Well, don't you think the way he's acting right
now makes the point?
It makes the point that that'snecessary, right, because I
think he would have a betterfollow.
I mean, I can't say, I justknow what I see on TV.
I think he would have a betterfollowing and more people who
will listen to him with aninfluential ear, because right
now I'm venturing to guesspeople to listen to him with an
(07:09):
ear of fear.
Right, I don't want to lose myjob, right, but is there an
influence there?
And I think that.
And no, actually, I don't thinkI know that's what I meant.
When you're at the top, youhave to have a different level
of influence to the people belowyou, because now, not only do
you have to know be able to talkto the people at the bottom
lines, but you also have to talkto the people in the middle,
(07:31):
executive, leadership and so onand so forth.
And that's what I'm thinkingthat the soft skills are more
prudent at the second level thananywhere else.
Pete Newsome (07:39):
But I'll say is a general statement.
Sure, but every organization isso different.
I wouldn't want to put that inone category by itself and agree
to all of it, because if youare looking to build a high
performance organization, onethat's intense think of a, you
know, wolf of Wall Street typeof scenario almost right Then
(08:03):
you would want a different kindof leader, a different set of
soft skills.
So that's really where thebasis for this lies is
understanding what soft skillsare needed in that particular
environment and then hireaccordingly.
One story that I always thinkof in a conversation like this
is years ago we had a softwaredeveloper join a team.
(08:24):
It wasn't the joint, the teamof 20 that you described.
It was a team of four.
This is a fourth person to join.
Someone had left for whateverreason.
We recruited a candidate intothis role and they all set in a
room together and on thiscandidate's first day he walks
in and the lights are off in theroom and he turned the lights
on.
One of the other developerswent and turned the light off,
(08:46):
and this went back and forth allday and he called us at the end
and he said I don't think I canwork here.
They work in the dark, theydon't communicate with each
other, nobody interacts.
So if you were interviewing forthat role, you should say Are
you comfortable working insilence, even though you're with
other people?
Can you just, you know, is thata good fit for you?
(09:06):
And it doesn't.
It's not a matter of one beingbetter or worse.
I mean, most people would saythe lights on are better, but it
was what was needed in thatparticular situation.
So knowing the culture, knowingwhat soft skills are needed,
that to me is step one in thisprocess.
Ricky Baez (09:25):
Especially the culture.
Right, because it's.
If you're, if you're tasked tohire the next engineer, the next
supervisor, the next, the next,whatever for the organization,
you have just enoughresponsibility to make sure the
person is it's, it's fitsculturally with the and I mean
the organizational culture, nota personal culture the fits, the
organization culture, the bestway possible, the same as the
(09:48):
skillset needed to be successfulin this role.
So the recruiter really has tofind that perfect balance of
both to mesh as well as possiblewith the team that they're
about to work with.
Pete Newsome (09:59):
And I'll tell you the way I took job requirements
over the years and would stilldo today If I were in that mode,
like I used to be.
And you, you needed me to hiresomeone for you.
And you, if you were a newmanager that I'm working with
for the first time, I wouldspend a little time enough time
on tell me what you need, ricky.
Hard skills, right.
(10:20):
What job do they need to beable to accomplish for you?
What are the goals andobjectives of the role?
Of course I want to know allthat, but I'm much more
interested in who you need.
Give me the person that's goingto be a good fit, and those
soft skills I would say matterat some level, greater than 50%
for most jobs.
Ricky Baez (10:41):
And Pete, I have to say this because right now, for
all the HR people listening,right now, their heads are
exploding.
Yes, we are.
We are going to be fair andconcise in who we bring in,
because in the HR world, pete Idon't know if you've seen this
this is a big thing as far asbeing careful and making sure
somebody is culturally fit foran organization, because then
(11:02):
you might start dabbling intoillegal water.
So that's not what we're sayinghere.
What we're saying here is theminimum qualifications has to be
met.
Once that is met, then let'stake a look at the soft skills
needed to be successful in therole.
Pete Newsome (11:16):
Give me more from that.
Tell me where you're concernedlies with this.
Where am I making you nervous?
Ricky Baez (11:22):
Well, no, not because I, because I know what
you mean.
What it will make other peoplenervous is if you focus so much
on the culturally fitperspective, there could be that
you're picking somebody onsomething that's not a necessary
or a needed skill settechnically for the role.
So if you get, if you take youreyes of what is technically
(11:43):
necessary for the role, you runthe risk of running into other
protected areas.
What if you take your eyes offthat?
You start figuring out somebodyhas to be more charismatic,
somebody has to have more energy?
Right, let's focus on energy,right.
Because, if you want, if youlook at the people with just
high energy and you focus juston that, chances are you're
going to hire people that areyounger, right, and now you just
(12:04):
violated the ADA andorganization just getting
trouble for that.
Pete Newsome (12:07):
So that's that's an interesting.
It's an interesting road to godown and this is off topic so I
don't want to spend much time onit.
Sorry, sorry, but that that isan it to me.
That's conflating things, thatthat shouldn't be confused.
Right, if I need someone withenergy, if I, if I'm hiring a
salesperson, right, I wantsomeone who is enthusiastic for
(12:30):
it.
They have an outgoingpersonality, they're upbeat,
they do have energy.
I know that's a necessary softscale.
Those are necessary soft skillsto be successful in many sales
roles.
I'm not going to apologize forrecruiting for that Now.
If someone wants to say yeah,but that's potentially
discriminating on age, I thinkthat is completely unfounded and
(12:52):
not in one having nothing to dowith the other.
There's a lot of superenergetic, jetic 80 year olds.
There's a lot of lazy 20 yearolds, right, agreed, so so do
you.
So tell me where that you know.
Back to the your comment thatmakes HR people's head explode
Is is it because they'reconcerned that those things
(13:14):
aren't easy to to separate?
I guess I'm not completelyfollowing.
Ricky Baez (13:20):
No, because because here's the thing.
Now, you're right that's goingto go nowhere if all of your
tools, if, if, if, you've doneeverything you need to do to
make sure you bring that personon board, but from a legal
perspective, you're going tospend about 20 grand to prove
yourself right.
So let's avoid that altogether.
Right, avoid that altogether.
I'm not saying that that thisis going to lead us down that
(13:42):
road, because, again, you haveto have a balance with it, right
?
And all I'm saying is it'sreally easy to get away from the
technical aspect and focus onthings that are not in this
technical necessity for the job,and you can easily go down that
rabbit hole where thisorganization did.
This organization wanted to,wanted to bring in I'm not going
to mention the name, but it'sall over the news they wanted to
(14:04):
bring in all newer employeesand they were all focusing just
in Gen Z's right because Gen Z'shave a different point of view
when it comes to work.
Well, you know who's not a Gen Zpeople over 40.
Right, they, they're not Gen Zand a group of them got together
like this is not fair and theylost $20 million in that lawsuit
(14:26):
.
So it's that case is different.
But if all I'm saying is as arecruiter, let's make sure the
balance is there.
Focus on the technical aspect,but then, just equally as
important, you got to focus onthe soft skills to have that
perfect ingredient in the bowlto make that cake.
I had to bring it back to food,sorry.
Pete Newsome (14:45):
So if I'm, if I'm, if you're my client and I'm
looking to recruit for you, ifyou're the hiring manager, give
me some, some insight then onwhere you think that that line
becomes too close to beingcrossed.
If I'm saying all right, ricky,you've given me the technical
(15:05):
requirements, the hard skillsfor the job, right?
We'll just continue to use theexample of a software developer.
Since I brought it, up earlierand I'm like great, now let's
get into the.
Who you need to hire.
Tell me what you know.
The soft let's talk about thesoft skills.
Do they need to?
Are they going to work as partof a team or are they going to
be autonomous?
I mean, that's a huge thing tostart with to have a bit as a
(15:29):
basis for understanding.
Now, that's that's reallyimportant to me as a recruiter.
Does that make youuncomfortable?
You think that gives you adangerous spot?
Ricky Baez (15:39):
No, it doesn't, because it's.
I'm being specific as to whatwe need.
Let's say, I need two positions, same skills, same everything.
One of them is working bythemselves in a room for eight
hours, right An analyst.
And the other one works with agroup of people.
Obviously, the job descriptionis going to look the same from a
technical perspective, but thesoft skills are going to be very
(16:01):
different, right?
Because I'm not going to careas much for the soft skills of
the person who's working in theroom by themselves if I'm the
only person they need to talk to, versus somebody who's got to
deal with the rest of the team,has to present in front of the
executive leadership and has totalk to our clients, right?
That's a completely differentset of soft skills that I'm
going to need for that secondperson that I would for the
(16:22):
first person.
So that this interaction so far, so far, so good.
Pete Newsome (16:27):
Okay, so then, where do you have then concerns?
Because a part of screening forsoft skills is you could get
into the world of behavioralinterviews, and that's something
that I think is important too.
Do you feel that that is also arisky road to go?
Ricky Baez (16:44):
down?
No, because we have me as a, asa, as a business owner, I do
have to write to.
I have to write to make surethat I vet the right person for
the right role.
If I'm going to pay money on aweekly basis for this person and
return for talent, I got tomake sure it's the right person.
So so far, with behavioralinterviews, I want to make sure
(17:06):
this guy's not going to smacksomebody over the head because
the Phillies won, right.
I want to make sure WillSyracuse going on, folks, in
case you haven't heard, philliesare doing good, so that's
important.
If you don't do that, if youdon't look for that and the guy
actually does that, beatsomebody, the question is going
to be how?
(17:26):
How did you check for this inthe interview process, right?
Did you check references Right?
So we got to watch ourselvesfor that as well.
Again, I'm saying we need abalance, and the issue comes
into place when you don't lookat the, the technical skills,
and you only focus on theculture of fit.
That's when you become, whenyou have an issue.
Pete Newsome (17:46):
So let me make sure we're on the same page.
When the technical fit to me isthe easier of things to assess,
absolutely Right.
So I'm we're not talking aboutthat today because we're
assuming that they're.
That matches there, right?
We're looking to go beyond that.
So, when I'm thinking ofbehavioral questions or soft
(18:07):
skills, I want to know how youresponded to adversity.
I want to know how you manageda project.
I want to know how youinteracted with the team.
These are all the things that Iwant to find out from you as a
candidate.
So I'm going to go with theopposite way of what you said,
right?
So this will really make yourHR head explode, perhaps.
(18:29):
I'm going to say you're probablydoing everyone a disservice if
you don't screen and recruit forsoft skills, because you're
going to end up with both sidesunhappy, right?
So I think we're starting tosee a lot of people who are not
good at the same level, but withboth sides unhappy, right?
So I think we're so afraid attimes of let's not get close to
(18:55):
a line that could get us sued,right?
I mean, look, no one, we're notgoing to discriminate against
anyone.
We're not going to get anywherenear talking about protected
classes.
To me that is such a far cryfrom what we're talking about.
So I it catches my attention,and so we're a little off topic
when there's a red flag thrownup for that kind of thinking,
(19:21):
because I think, no, no, no, nowwe're, just now we're, we're
bringing something unnecessaryinto the conversation.
Ricky Baez (19:27):
Well, well, pete, that's what makes this this what
you and I have.
You're such a great team, right?
I don't want you thinking aboutthat.
I want you thinking aboutbringing the neck, the best
person on board.
If you focus on that me as asHR okay, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna equate this to a car.
Okay, I'm, it's you're.
You're trying to get to Miamiand you're going 180 miles an
(19:48):
hour and I'm here to tell you, Iwant you to get to Miami, but
go, go the speed limit.
Right, that's all I'm saying.
Right, you focus on driving toyour destination.
I, for example, you focus onbringing the best person on
board and I will focus to makesure that we do this in a way
that minimize legal liability.
That's why this is such a greatteam, and that that that is all
(20:11):
I'm saying is that my concernonly comes into play when the
technical abilities or thetechnical skillset are not
looked at.
But I know you and I assumethat that is looked at.
But I guarantee, if peoplelistening right now they're like
, oh my god, you can't do it, no, wait a minute.
We have, we have to balance it.
If we balance it, you're gonnabe okay.
Pete Newsome (20:31):
Understood.
Fair enough.
So we're not discriminating,but we are drilling down to the
things that matter, right?
So let me go to another area ofassessment for soft skills
psychometric testing.
What's your general take onthat?
I know there's a lot oforganizations that are
completely bought into theconcept.
(20:52):
There's others that neverconsider doing it, and what
we're talking about with that isif skills testing, aptitude
testing, personality testing, tosee if you are a good fit for
the role.
Now, if anything, to me, attimes when I see this taking
place, I think, oh boy, that'sletting you know we're back to
letting a robot of sorts right,make a decision.
(21:12):
But what's your take on thevalue of that and how it comes
into play in interviewing?
Ricky Baez (21:19):
I value those kinds of testings only if it's used as
a tool to make a decision withit to bring somebody on board,
not if it's the only decidingfactor.
It has to be in a plate full ofother tools to help make a
suggestion over that the personshould be brought on board,
right.
So I agree, because then look,I know it's.
(21:42):
I'm willing to get some of themost famous serial killers that
America or the world knows werefreaking geniuses right because
the IQ was high.
They just have this little fixthat needs to be.
You know, this itch that needsto be scratched.
What I'm saying is is that froman HR perspective or a
leadership perspective, I'mperfectly okay with that.
(22:03):
Only if it's used as a tool,combined with other tools, to
help the human being make adecision, then I'm okay with it.
Pete Newsome (22:10):
Got it okay, fair enough.
So let me ask you this is alittle bit once again off topic,
but it's something that I'venoticed a lot on LinkedIn lately
Comments being made aboutcompanies that ask their
candidates to do projects, to dowork and we've had that come up
at times over the years withthe client asking for creative
position, for example, askingsomeone to show do a little
(22:34):
project.
Now, it's one thing if it takesa very short time, but some of
these examples I've seen onLinkedIn are companies asking
candidates to spend hours andhours doing something without
compensating them for I'm not afan of that at all.
I think that's a.
I don't think that'sappropriate.
But do you see that as a dangerzone at all?
I don't know why we're goingdanger zone today, but that's
(22:56):
where we are.
We need Kenny Loggins.
Ricky Baez (22:58):
Kenny Loggins playing no, look, I don't see
that as a legal issue.
I do see that as the best way,the best way to push your best
candidates out of the runnings.
Your best candidates are notgonna have time for that.
They're not gonna have time forthat.
They're gonna go to wherepeople respect their time right
(23:20):
and really get down to whatreally press tax what needs to
happen for the person to behired.
You know who's gonna stickaround with you to go through
that test to make sure they gotthe job the people who have no
chance anywhere else.
So, from my perspective, if youcan do it in 10 minutes and in
10 minutes you can determine thecandidates, technical skills,
(23:41):
by all means go for it.
Couple of hours, no, you'regonna push your best people away
.
Pete Newsome (23:46):
Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it and
that's for that reason alone.
It's a dangerous road to godown.
It's really.
It's also a bit of adisrespectful thing at times to
the individual, but if acompany's willing to compensate
for the time at an hourly rate,I think that's appropriate.
If you really need to see thatwork to make an assessment, it
(24:08):
could be a win-win if someone'sotherwise not employed and I'll
give you a real world example ofhow I've done.
That is when we hirefreelancers for project work,
then I ask them to give me asample.
Let's start with one smallproject Now.
I'm going to pay you for it atyour hourly rate, but it's a way
(24:31):
of finding out whether there'sa good fit in real time right
Real world, with something thatI will be asking you to do at
scale.
Let's do it in a small sampleand see how your quality was
right.
So I do that pretty regularlyon the freelance side, but
(24:52):
always compensating theindividual for it.
Ricky Baez (24:54):
Well, you know who does it a lot.
The labor market right.
Well, trades welders right.
I've helped an organizationrecruit a welder and I love
their process.
They have two pieces of iron orsteel and they're like, hey,
weld this together.
They have all the tools there,all the tools are there right,
and they know how to turn thingson and put and you just let
(25:15):
them do it safely.
Again, that takes 20 minutes.
That's perfect.
Why not put them through thatso you can see whether you can
do?
Pete Newsome (25:22):
it Absolutely Okay .
So we're talking abouttechniques to evaluate these
soft skills, right?
Group interviews, groupinterviews Now I'm not talking
panel interviews.
That's different.
I know what you mean.
Maybe we can talk about thesethings separately.
Group interview hey, you're oneof three candidates, five
candidates.
Let's sit you down altogetherand see how you react.
(25:45):
I think that's weird.
I don't.
It's not something we encounterrarely, if ever, do we
encounter that In our staffingworld?
What's your take on groupinterviews?
Ricky Baez (25:59):
If I'm looking for somebody, a salesperson, who I
need this person to command thegroup of people, to convince
other people to go the other way.
I will love to do a groupinterview because I'll put a lot
of A players together, right,and we'll see who comes out on
top.
We'll see who's the one who'sgonna sway somebody from one
place to the other.
(26:19):
From a sales perspective, thatis awesome, that is excellent,
right?
Because what happens ifsomebody has all the schooling,
all the certification?
Because, remember, schoolingand education, it's just proof
that you have the education youwanna see, proof that they can
use it right?
So if you have somebody in thatgroup that's an introvert,
doesn't talk, it's afraid totalk to people, you're not gonna
(26:41):
put them in a sales position,so they're gonna fail,
regardless of what kind ofcredentials they have.
Pete Newsome (26:45):
So for that example, I would do that and I
would, as a professionalsalesperson, which I've been for
most of my career, I wouldargue that you're gonna lose the
A players in that scenario too.
You think so?
Yeah, no way, I'm playing thatgame with someone I know it's
not gonna happen.
I don't mind a panel interview.
(27:08):
Go ahead, line everyone up,give me your best, let's see how
I stand up in that situation.
I think that's a much morerelevant way to assess how
someone's going to do then toput them in a completely
unnatural environment.
That's not, in my opinion, atrue assessment of how they'll
(27:30):
do in their job.
It's just almost mean.
I don't know.
Ricky Baez (27:35):
It's just.
How is that that's not mean?
How is that mean?
Pete Newsome (27:40):
Yeah, it's again.
I think it's a bit of adisrespectful approach and
that's just my own take.
I'm not fundamentally opposedto it happening.
I just I don't think that's thebest way to treat individuals
who are interviewing for a role.
To put them in a cattle callsituation and line them up.
It's just not what I would wantto subject someone to.
(28:02):
And I'll tell you maybe that'sjust my own personal take I'd
draw the line there.
I wouldn't subject myself tothat either.
I'd say, hey look, you know,you don't you know.
I'm just.
I have too much respect for myown ability to subject myself to
that, so Fair enough.
Ricky Baez (28:20):
I mean, I've done that a series in the past and
we've got it down to the pointthat we knew the type of person
we needed to hire and we gotlong story short.
We knew we needed used carsalesmen because they had the
best gift of no.
Seriously, they have the bestgift of GAB.
They can talk to anybody andsell them anything.
(28:41):
And the best way for us to seehow that skillset come out, put
them in a group of people andhave them talk about a blender
and then see what happens tothis blender right it's.
It worked out great.
Pete Newsome (28:51):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
So look.
So sometimes interviewingadding some gimmicky things to
it like that right, sell me apencil.
It's a different style, it's adifferent approach.
It's not one that I'vesubscribed to, because you're
not hiring me to sell a pencil,right.
You're hiring me to buildrelationships, to build rapport,
(29:14):
to understand what someonefinds valuable and then be able
to apply our solution to it.
That's what you're hiring me todo, and I don't think those
situations are necessarily goodbreeding grounds for it.
But I'm thinking we're talkingjust from a sales perspective.
Maybe there's other groupinterview scenarios that would
make more sense.
None of them immediately cometo mind.
I just haven't encountered itthat much either, thankfully.
Ricky Baez (29:38):
Now here's the thing , Pete Now.
And if from a recruiter'sperspective, if you really want
to find out who that person is,you do have to ask those
behavioral questions.
But instead of asking, hey, howwill you handle ex-situation
which anybody can make up, thebest thing a recruiter can do is
to ask the candidate to giveyou an example of a situation
(30:00):
that A happened and how to B youthe candidate respond to it Now
, is there a possibility theycould lie?
Yeah, there is.
There's a small possibilitythat they can get some good lies
in there, but the majority ofthe time you're going to get
people's real responses becausethey believe that's the real
thing they have to say, andsometimes they say the right
things.
And how they handle it.
(30:21):
They were really diplomaticabout it.
They tried to understandpeople's rationale.
Now you start to see theinterpersonal skills.
You start to see how thisperson handles people who
disagree with them.
And especially in situationswhere everybody's violating
policy, how do you stand up tocall everybody out on that?
(30:42):
Those are questions you need toask.
Pete Newsome (30:44):
So here's a question for you.
A candidate is asked a questionlike that, a situational
question, and they make up.
Ricky Baez (30:50):
you said they're probably going to lie, or are
you?
Pete Newsome (30:57):
okay with that If it satisfied the ultimate goal
of the candidate to get the joboffer right?
Are you okay if they gave you alie which was the right answer
to the question, versus givingyou a poor answer to the
question which was a truth?
Because what's your take onthat?
Ricky Baez (31:17):
My take is my no.
No, I'll tell you.
I'll tell you.
My take on that is that if youtell me a good story on how you
will handle something, that'seven worse, because that means
you're telling me you know howto do it, you know what needs to
be done, but I want evidencethat you did it Right.
Pete Newsome (31:34):
I want evidence, right, but I think in so many
cases when these interviewquestions arise and the
candidate is not prepared forthem, so on, on Zengegg, our
career advice site, we have alist of common interview
questions that it could be askedfor any job title.
We have 70 of them, 70 of themwith an explanation for how to
(31:58):
answer what the interviewer islooking for.
Here's some, you know, here'sthe approach you should take 70.
That's a big number.
Those are the most quote mostcommon.
So, even though every candidateshould go there and read
through them to prepare for aninterview, there's going to be
71 or 72 or 73 that are just outof left field, right the you
(32:20):
know sell me the pencil typething, and all of those are.
Here's a manhole cover.
It was some Microsoft questionthat I used to see all the time
from years ago.
It's a round male, a manholecover and a square hole.
How do you make it fit orsomething like that?
Like, and I know thesequestions are asked with a good,
with good intentions, but justbecause a candidate isn't
(32:42):
prepared for your obscurequestion doesn't mean they're
not great, and so I would, youknow, just expect that the more
you kind of ask people tostretch the the, the farther
away you're getting from realityand, like I, keep staying.
Staying your lane generally ishow I feel.
Don't don't ask people to makeup weird stories or to come up
(33:04):
with scenarios that they, youknow they hadn't thought of
ahead of time, or or you'vegiven it.
Ricky Baez (33:09):
Well, I'm not looking for people to make
things up, I'm looking forexperiences.
And if you don't have anexperience and you can't give me
one, I mean, what else am Igoing to go off of Right?
So all right, so you justshowed to me that you don't have
experience in handling thiskind of issue.
I cannot make it.
I'm not going to say this, butI'm not going to make a
determination on whether you'regoing to be a good fit for this
organization or not.
Pete Newsome (33:30):
Well, as long as it's relevant to the
organization, right.
That's why it's got to berelevant.
So the point I was making withthat is don't get cute, Don't
get too cute, because you youlike putting people on the spot
and seeing how they respond.
That's not.
That shouldn't be the goal AT&Tused to do that AT&T used to do
, that.
Ricky Baez (33:45):
They had this whole thing back in the day not now,
where they will look at how yousat, whether you crush your arms
, whether you crush your feetunder the desk.
They will look under the deskand I I was witness to this and
I'm like, why are you lookingfor that?
Because somebody told them thatall these behavior cues would
give you an indication on howthat person is going to be at
work and that that I do notsubscribe to it Because, look, I
(34:07):
can be like this.
You know for for people notwatching, I'm folding my hands
looking standoffice, butsometimes to me, this is how I
listen the best.
It depends on the person.
Pete Newsome (34:17):
So my ankles are crossed right now.
I don't know if that's aproblem.
I don't know what that's a signof that explains a lot.
Ricky Baez (34:23):
Pete, it explains a lot.
Pete Newsome (34:27):
I don't know.
So here's what I do think isuniversally a great idea is to
ask professional references howthe candidate handled those
specific situations, and that'sa great way to assess soft
skills, because you're you'renot looking in.
Let me just close what we weretalking about before by just
(34:49):
adding there's a lot of peoplewho just don't interview well
right, and that's where I Ithink even even great
salespeople may not be great inthat situation.
So always consider that tooright, whether you're you're
trying to force situation orreally get to the answer.
I think the best way to get tothe answer beyond the resume,
(35:11):
beyond our in-personinteractions, is to find out how
you handled these scenarios inthe past, by asking the person
you reported to in the past.
Isn't?
Ricky Baez (35:22):
you.
You said something that caughtmy attention.
Isn't the the idea of notinterviewing?
Well, that in itself gives youa glimpse into how that person's
soft skills are.
Pete Newsome (35:35):
Yes, if you, if, if you're, you're measuring soft
skills like performing underpressure, handling adversity,
that's where you have to look atthe specific job.
I think so.
We.
You mentioned a sales jobbefore.
Okay, yeah, a salesperson doesneed to be able to think on
their feet, respond, adapt.
You asked me a question withsomething I've never experienced
.
That's why my mind goes well,I'm going to give you an answer.
(35:57):
I'm going to give you an answerthat you want because I'm a
salesperson.
That's I'm.
I'm trying to get to the.
I'm trying to close this salein this particular scenario.
That's you extending an offerto me.
So I'm not going to completelyfabricate something, but I'm
going to put a spin on it thatleads down the path that we're
(36:18):
trying.
I'm trying to take you down.
So in in that interviewscenario, great.
So yes, if I'm.
If you're interviewing asalesperson and they don't
respond well to a tough question, you should consider whether
they're they're right for sales.
If you're interviewing anaccountant or a web developer
who doesn't respond well to, hey, let me trick you with this
question and really make youstretch and thank.
(36:40):
I think you're doing thesituation in the individual and
yourself a disservice.
That's really where maybe Ididn't make that point clearly
enough.
So, to the degree that it fitsthe need, yes, interview for
those things, but I would ratherinterview my software.
I've been asking a differentset of questions with my
(37:03):
software developer than I amwith my salesperson.
Ricky Baez (37:06):
Agreed.
Yeah, and that's why it'simportant for the recruiter to
not just have one approach.
You need to have an approachthat matches A the job
description and B the personyou're looking for to fit that
team right.
And you build your questions,you build your entire interview
process around those two factors.
You're going to end up findingthe right person for the team.
(37:27):
But, again, that balance has tobe there.
Going back to that account, andyes, you're right, I'm not
going to ask all these softskills questions, but here's
what I am going to say hey,here's, just press you with a
bunch of numbers, tell me astory.
Pete Newsome (37:39):
Yeah, and we got here in a roundabout way, but
this is this really makes thepoint that got us off track in
the first place, with the headsexploding is when I say who you
need.
It's dependent on the role thatthey're going to play, and so I
want to know I need someone whocan think well on their feet,
(38:00):
right.
I need someone who can dealwith adversity constantly OK,
well, I need the screen forthose things.
Versus, I need someone who canstare at numbers for an extended
period of time and not interactwith other humans, right.
That's what I'm trying to getto with the soft skills.
So, as far as evaluating onsoft skills, ricky, where do you
(38:22):
land?
How important.
Ricky Baez (38:24):
Oh, I am big on it.
I am big on it, I.
I'm on this WhatsApp chat groupwith other HR pros and we help
each other out with differentsituations.
Out of five of us on there, I'mthe only one who I recruit for
minimum qualifications, and thenthe rest is attitude.
Right, it's everybody's likeRicky.
Look, I'm more risk, not atfirst, but I'm more.
(38:47):
I lean on a on the edge morewhen it comes to that, because I
feel that's important.
I feel how people, if you'regoing to spend at least one
third of your day with thesefolks, you have to have some
kind of communication skills andinterpersonal skills, and if I
have a great team, I'm not goingto ruin it with somebody who's
a stick in the mud.
That's just not going to happen, right?
So where, where?
(39:07):
Where I'm at 100 percent we'vegot to look for soft skills, and
100 percent you have to lookfor the for the minimum
qualifications.
You blend those together.
There's your candidate.
Pete Newsome (39:18):
Perfect, and I think that's that's that's how
we should wrap up and be awareof the of the situation, be
conscious of it, but but alsothink through.
Think through anything you'resaying when you're having a
candid conversation withoutwithout question, right?
That's true, that's right, allright.
Well, thanks for listeningtoday, ricky, thank you as
always, and we'll see you nextweek.
Ricky Baez (39:39):
Thank you, folks.
Have a good one.
We're due for Q and a, are wenot?
Pete Newsome (39:42):
We are Q and a.
We are that's coming up.
Ricky Baez (39:45):
Okay, bye, bye, bye.
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