January 24, 2024 • 53 mins
How does a team go from good to great? Kate O'Neill, CEO of Teaming, joins Pete today with an insider's perspective on how their team intelligence software revolutionizes how managers foster high-performing teams. From providing personalized communication coaching to enhancing interaction within diverse teams, Teaming's AI-driven platform is making waves in the professional world.
Kate recounts the strategic decisions that helped her startup flourish before diving into the heart of why Teaming was created—a solution to the void left by traditional project management tools. As CEOs, she and Pete also talk about the importance of communication skills as well as the struggles and triumphs of leadership.
The need for cohesiveness within a team has never been more pronounced. Join Pete and Kate in this enlightening discussion that will enrich your understanding of the modern workplace and equip you with the tools to build a thriving team.
Additional Resources:
- Teaming
- Leadership Hiring Techniques to Build a Stronger Management Team
- Tips for Building a High-Performing Remote Team
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out 4 Corner Resources at https://www.4cornerresources.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
👋 FOLLOW KATE O'NEILL ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oneilkate/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the hire calling podcast.
(00:01):
I'm Pete Newsome, and my guesttoday is Kate O'Neill.
Kate's a co-founder and CEO ofteaming, a team intelligence
software platform for managersto help them build healthy, high
performing teams at work.
Kate, welcome, how are youtoday?
Oh good, thank you so much forhaving me, pete.
Awesome to have you here.
I've been trying to get you onfor a while now.
Kate O'Neill (00:20):
Well, I appreciate your patience.
You know I said this backstage,but I love the content you all
are doing and I'm excited forour conversation.
Pete Newsome (00:28):
Well, it's a small world.
It's really neat to connectbecause we met on LinkedIn.
Then you posted something thatled me to meet someone else,
josh Hammons.
So we'll have to make sure Joshwatches this, and Josh and I
have become friends since that.
We're friends on Facebook.
Now We've met in person.
We're talking about doing somethings together professionally.
It's really a cool way to useLinkedIn, so thank you for that.
Kate O'Neill (00:50):
Real human can be cool to see that it's moving
beyond just connections with me.
Pete Newsome (00:56):
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things on
LinkedIn.
I'm not sure if you're a Reddituser, but we talk a lot
internally about the LinkedInlunatics subreddit, so if you
haven't discovered it yet,there's one on.
Kate O'Neill (01:06):
Twitter.
I'm going to find what thehandle is and send it to you,
but it's basically like.
Basically it's calling peopleout in posts, being like this
isn't a real story, nice, nice.
Pete Newsome (01:16):
Well, that's a problem, though, with LinkedIn
right now, where I know thesearen't real stories and I won't
name names, but there's hugeaccounts and they make these
stories and they're sellingtheir service and you can't.
Yeah, I don't begrudge anyonedoing that, but I just want to
say come on, like this is.
This is awful, and, being instaffing, at times it's even
worse, because we see the advicethat gets the most likes and
(01:37):
shares and comments is stuffthat would get someone fired on
the spot, like no one should berecommending it.
Kate O'Neill (01:44):
It's bad content, it's bad advice, yeah, but it's,
it's dramatic.
So people, it catches people'seye and they're like, ooh, you
know, or or it's so heartwarmingthat people don't realize that
it's not real.
If you're doing that kind ofstuff, it's just for likes and
clicks and not for realconnections.
So I always take that with agrand assault and say, well, you
(02:06):
know, I don't think anythingmeaningful will lead from it,
but maybe but it works.
Pete Newsome (02:10):
I mean, that's the struggle that I have.
I don't know if you do as well,but it's a struggle between
posting.
I just can't sell out to thatpoint.
Now I will confess I've startedposting some memes on LinkedIn
and you know what I'm.
I'm, I'm embarrassed to saythat gets way more interaction
and engagement than our seriousstuff.
And we talked a little bitabout TikTok before we started
(02:31):
recording our biggest TikTokvideo.
I mean, we put out careeradvice all day, every day.
Our biggest, our most viralvideo 33 million views.
I think the last time I lookedwas a little boy pushing over
his sister Like and with a funnycomment about, like Monday, how
Monday feels, or something likethat.
I'm like oh, what has happenedin my life?
Kate O'Neill (02:49):
Well, I mean, look , if you're, if you're, if that
stuff is, is is crushing rightand the stuff that's like
serious, you know it's a balanceright, the person who engaged
with the brother and sister.
Now they'll actually see thereal content and that will start
to do better and better Right.
So it's like you know it's,it's sugar and vegetables.
Pete Newsome (03:10):
That's right.
Kate O'Neill (03:11):
You know, so I like it.
Pete Newsome (03:12):
That's, that's our justification, right?
It's brand recognition at work,so we'll keep doing it, and I.
It's snowing in the backgroundwhere you are, and you're only
in Tennessee, that is.
That's amazing.
Kate O'Neill (03:23):
We are today it's only 2 pm and then apparently
it's going to snow again onThursday and Friday.
So yeah, we're getting, we'regetting dumped on.
Pete Newsome (03:33):
How unusual is that it does mean for where you
are.
Kate O'Neill (03:36):
I think this has happened maybe two other times,
and I moved here in 2019.
So you know, less than once ayear for sure.
Pete Newsome (03:46):
Wow, I'm envious.
I'm in Florida, it's actually Icould use some beach time.
Oh yeah, but it's too cold togo to the beach and but but it's
too warm to really enjoy thewinter.
It's done now.
I would trade.
If you ever want to trade, Well, we'll have to talk about that.
Kate O'Neill (04:02):
Let's do it.
I like to come down to meet youand Josh.
Pete Newsome (04:05):
So, yes, indeed, yeah, well, we'll, we'll plan on
it, so, but so 2019.
So tell me about your careerleading up to teaming, because
that's when you start.
You found the teaming Right, isthat?
Is that what brought you toNashville?
Kate O'Neill (04:17):
It sort of Anders and I.
Previous company was calledLean Kit.
It did really large scaleproject management and process
management for really largeenterprises and I was their head
of marketing.
And then our former CEO, ourformer CIO and our former head
of engineering all got togetherafter that company sold and said
(04:37):
we want to get the gang backtogether again.
We saw the opportunity forteaming while at our previous
company.
So I actually knew when I tookthe job.
I was living in Atlanta at thetime and I knew that they were
venture backed company and theywould sell and you know, call it
three to four years tops.
And so I didn't want to sell myhouse in Atlanta.
(04:58):
So I commuted up to Nashvillefor a few years.
I'd come up Monday morning, I'dleave Thursday night, I took
most Fridays off don't tellanyone and and so that that
company sold within three yearsand and I was like great, I
didn't sell my house but I didwhat I wanted to do career wise.
It was a great opportunity forme.
But then when I loved the teamand we said let's start teaming,
(05:22):
it was like all right, I got tomake the move now, because this
is going to be a 10 year thingat least.
So so I made the move about sixmonths before the pandemic.
Okay, that's interesting.
Pete Newsome (05:34):
Didn't see that come in, obviously.
Kate O'Neill (05:36):
No, so I didn't have to move, I guess, but I'm
really glad I did.
I love Nashville.
I still get back to Atlanta allthe time.
My family's there.
It's a.
It's three hours, three hoursand 15 minutes or so from door
to door for me and I was therelast weekend quick weekend trip,
and so that's.
It's nice to be in a place Ilove to live, but close enough
(05:56):
to family where I can see them.
It's just a car ride away.
Nice, that's a good distance.
Pete Newsome (06:00):
That's appropriate .
You don't want to be too close,that's good.
Now, so how did, how did COVIDaffect you guys?
You started this business, youhad plans and then, boom, the
world starts to fall apartaround you.
Yeah.
Kate O'Neill (06:13):
And what stinks is like you know.
You would think that the risein remote work it did increase
demand for tools like teaming,but we were just starting to
write code for it and so wedidn't have.
We weren't there to capitalizeon it, which Okay, thanks.
But but it actually was greatin the sense that I don't know
(06:33):
how much you follow, like thefunding industry, tech markets,
but you know a lot of money gotpumped into coming right.
Pete Newsome (06:41):
I do yes, yes.
Kate O'Neill (06:43):
We stayed.
We stayed nimble and scrappyand and we took on a little bit
of angel money, but we didn't goout and try to raise you know
gobs of money at an unreasonablevaluation.
And so those businesses a lotof them haven't met their scale
needs right to the money thatthey they took in at that time
and so they've gone out ofbusiness.
Pete Newsome (07:04):
It's happening a lot lately.
Kate O'Neill (07:06):
Yeah, and we're I mean knock on wood, here We've
we've survived, so that's beenreally helpful.
You know it was hard, right.
Everyone's taking all thismoney, this, you know, it's like
the golden age of startup andand people are well, you're not
doing that too, and so that wasa hard, hard moment.
Pete Newsome (07:26):
But if you, if you can get away with not doing
that, what a home run, that's awin.
Kate O'Neill (07:30):
You keep, keep the ownership.
Pete Newsome (07:31):
Yes.
Kate O'Neill (07:33):
So that's, you know I'm happy where that ended
up.
It was kind of hard, but andthe other thing that was hard is
, like you know, if you've everyou've done this where you're,
you're trying to understand orachieve product market fit, but
the the the market keepschanging.
The world moved so fast orremote.
Well, are we going back?
I'm not sure.
You know like now, this hybridthing the world around us, the
(07:57):
social things that were going onduring that time all of that
affected people managers in adifferent way at a different
time, and so we felt like it wasa little bit of whack-a-mole to
try to understand the problemthat they were facing because it
kept changing.
So that was.
That was really hard.
I think we've now narrowed inon how to really help managers
(08:18):
and we've really started to seesome some nice growth there.
Pete Newsome (08:22):
So that's awesome.
Kate O'Neill (08:23):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (08:24):
Well, let's go back.
Let's go backwards in a littlebit.
What was the original premisefor teaming?
How did it come to be?
Good question.
Kate O'Neill (08:32):
So I mentioned, as I mentioned, we were a project
management software company.
You know our last company thatsold and that company you know
when we, when we would go intowork with, call it like every,
almost every corporate worker atWalmart used our software then
and we would go to teams andunderstand how are we making you
work faster?
That was the promise of thesoftware is.
(08:54):
You know, we can help you havebetter processes so that you can
deliver work faster.
And we would see like we were.
We're measuring their work sowe can see you know Walmart's 3%
more efficient.
That's millions and millions ofdollars.
They're bottom line.
But when you went and talked tothe teams, they didn't feel
faster and you're like, well,walk me through that a little
(09:15):
bit.
And we realized we weren'tdoing anything about what the
the most important part of ourcapacity or our speed to deliver
work, which is our attitude,our engagement at work, and our
old software did none of that.
In fact, it took, it took awaya little bit from our engagement
(09:35):
because it made people feel alittle bit like a number.
Like you know, I'm just thismachine to go do work, which you
know we're here to work, butbecause it was so, you know
anyone could do this, or everyteam is doing this in the same
way.
So what's special about howwe're doing it?
It's not me, someone else coulddo this job, no problem.
(09:56):
It made them feel a little bitunder.
So we said, all right, this is,these are human problems, and
that's you know.
Where we said All right, thisis what teaming is going to
focus on is how do we helpmanagers and their teams create
the environment they want towork, in that they can deliver
work fast, in that they canincrease their capacity to do
(10:17):
work, and so that's what teamingdoes.
Pete Newsome (10:20):
That is an incredibly large challenge Right
, I mean in a big statement foryou to make.
I mean because I can tell you,having owned a business now for
18 years and wanting nothingmore.
When I started the company, Ifounded the business to be the
(10:40):
company I couldn't find as anemployee, and that meant a
number of different things to me, but I found that what I wanted
wasn't necessarily whateveryone else wanted over the
years, as we started to grow,and I found that to probably be
my biggest limiter over theyears, and that part of that is
I'm I'm a career salesperson.
(11:01):
I'm someone who was comfortableenough with my skill set and
abilities to start a business.
I had the right drive andmotivation and work ethic and
all those things just have to bein place and I had the right
idea.
I thought I could execute on it.
But that's an entirely differentskill set than managing a team.
I've come to realize to apainful degree at times, and
(11:23):
that is something that I willtell you, 18 years in, I've not
been able to solve, and I wanteveryone to like what they're
doing.
I want everyone to feelincluded and to be happy.
But that's an incrediblydifficult thing and so, ok,
you've decided we can solve thisright.
How?
How do you go about doing that?
Where do you start?
Kate O'Neill (11:43):
Yeah, good question, well one.
I think you are not alone.
People feel that very much.
I mean, when you think aboutwhen you became a manager for
the first time, right, or maybeit's when you're owning your own
business, but even still youare now a manager, people don't
think about that.
If you're a salesperson, youthink about the craft of sales,
(12:03):
which does involve people, soyou can get a little close, but
you don't really think about Ineed to learn a new profession
when I'm a manager.
Pete Newsome (12:15):
Perfect way to put it.
Kate O'Neill (12:16):
Yes, yeah, there is this stigma out there too
that we should just be good atthis, right, because we're
either a natural leader, like oh, he's got natural leadership
skills, so he should just knowhow to do this, or we think
we're a bad person if we're nota good manager, right, or like
(12:37):
this is a reflection of who weare as people rather than as our
skills, and that's onemisconception I try to get out
right in front is management isits own distinct profession with
its unique skills that havenothing to do with your
functional area of expertise.
Number one and number two theyare skills, just like anything
(13:02):
is a skill, right?
Yes, you can have naturalinclinations to be a good leader
.
There are things about ouridentity and our personality
that make one leader maybebetter suited or better to start
as a leader, but if you don'tcontinue to nurture those things
and become an expert in them,become a learner of those things
(13:24):
, you're not going to get better.
Pete Newsome (13:26):
And no one's.
I think you'd agree with this,but I believe anyone's
intentionally bad at it, andthey are bad, and I think, now
more than ever, employees havehigher expectations on their
manager.
They're more critical outwardly, publicly, at times, as we've
probably all seen over the pastweek with this video that this
(13:48):
young lady who was being firedor terminated from her software
job have you seen it?
You haven't seen this?
All right then.
I'm going to move on from itthough, but she recorded herself
being laid off, and it's beenpretty viral over the past week
and the criticism that comes outfor, just as Vittorol claimed,
(14:11):
the employer.
It is so quick to happen now,and I always think well, no one
is intentionally being awful,right, they, and so All right,
so so that's a huge problem.
We know it's a problem, I'mpart of the problem, god knows
that.
So where do you go from there?
I mean, how do you even beginto tackle that cake?
Because that's justinsurmountable, it seems to me.
Kate O'Neill (14:34):
Well, people, problems are messy problems, for
sure, and I think it's alsoreframe a little bit.
You know you might solve oneproblem and then use that same
approach for another, verysimilar problem at a different
time, and it's a different time,and that right.
So the world is changing aroundyou as you're trying to
navigate these things likecommunication or having hard
(14:57):
conversations, the things thatmanagers need to do, like firing
someone.
There are just ways that youlearn how to do these things
that I think are good, justfirst principles of management
that some managers know, somedon't.
A lot of companies don't teachthem, so then they don't know.
So that's sort of like layerone.
(15:18):
Ok, what are the firstprinciples of management?
Layer two is how can we helppeople to do these things faster
?
So that's where that's whereteaming Well, I would say we do
both which is teaming is asoftware platform where you do
your work, so we are in yourmeetings.
I don't have it in here, butlike it's an assistant that
joins every meeting for you andtakes meeting notes, right, so
(15:40):
you can stay engaged in theconversation.
You can really see activelistening, right, all the things
that we know are important, andso we're automating where we
can.
We are automating things forparticularly managers, because
that's usually where it starts,right, where they're setting the
tone.
They're setting what's behavioris acceptable, what's not.
(16:02):
How we're going to communicate,what are our team norms going
to be right?
So there's a lot of help fromteaming to the manager.
But the team member is alsoincluded, right, they are also
using teaming in their meetingsand we say, ok, we're going to
automate what we can and thenwe're going to coach directly
each person based on theircommunication styles and
(16:24):
preferences.
So if you think about analgorithm, right, or training a
piece of software to me, right,let's say you are my manager,
right, and you have a veryspecific communication style and
it is opposite of mine.
Yes, we are much more likely tobutt heads because we
communicate differently.
(16:45):
There are also cultural things,right, we're from different
areas of the country.
We, you know you're a man, I'ma woman, right, like those
things can be.
Just, we're different people.
Pete Newsome (16:57):
All the above, yeah.
Kate O'Neill (16:58):
Yeah, all the above.
And so we say, OK, teaming isgoing to learn about both these
people, about how they'recommunicating in the meetings.
So it's not just taking notes,it's learning how we communicate
and then offers very tailoredcoaching about what topics were
communicated really well, basedon our communication styles and
(17:20):
what could be improved.
So I like to use this as anexample.
Let's say you're a, you're ahigh like, let's keep this high
level, and I'm a details person.
I got to know the deal.
Let's start with the detailsand then let's work our way to
the big picture.
That is like two really hardways to come into a conversation
, but it happens all the time.
I will get coaching on thetimes, these very specific
(17:41):
topics.
You know Project Twitter orProject Glass, whatever, where I
kept it high level and youappreciated that because it's
what you were looking for in thestatus update from me.
And then, conversely, I'll gethey, you know, in this instance,
when you talked about, you know, project matches, you know you
(18:02):
really dove into the details andyou didn't need to Because
wasn't what Pete was looking for.
Pete Newsome (18:06):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (18:07):
And then vice versa, right when I might need
help with something, or I don'tknow something that I maybe
should know, or it's a differentexpectation of me that's new
and I don't know what to do.
You'll get coaching, veryspecific to me, that says, hey,
when Kate was doing this newthing, you let her dive into the
details and ask you lots ofdifferent detailed questions,
(18:30):
and that was great for herbecause she learned how to do
the thing that she's gonna beable to not dive into the
details with you againafterwards.
Pete Newsome (18:39):
Okay, okay.
Kate O'Neill (18:40):
Very specifically honed in on first management,
like first principles.
As managers right, yourresponsibility, my
responsibility.
You know how we do career stuff, goal setting, all that and
then we layer on top of that how, exactly how you're
communicating.
Let's learn exactly how to makeyour communication better, more
(19:02):
effective over time.
Pete Newsome (19:03):
I mean this sounds too good to be true.
Okay, because and I can say itreally resonates with me because
of what I admitted to youalready is that this is not my
strength, and I'll tell you astory in a minute of how not my
strength it really is.
But what are you assessing andinterpreting and reading to be
able to offer that feedback?
How does I mean?
(19:24):
Just not, don't get tootechnical with it because it'll
go over my head, but how doesthat work?
Kate O'Neill (19:30):
Have you ever taken a disc assessment or
Myers-Briggs?
Pete Newsome (19:33):
Yes.
Kate O'Neill (19:34):
So we start with the disc.
Okay, You're kind of forteaming you take a disc
assessment.
Okay, use that as your call it,your natural style and your
general style.
And then we know, because we'rein the meetings with you, we
know when you're presenting thatstyle and when you're not.
Pete Newsome (19:50):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (19:51):
Like when you're getting fired, for instance you.
That's an adrenaline, it's areally uncomfortable situation,
right?
It's different than yournatural style, right?
So we know the contact sorry,the content ends the context of
a meeting and you know basicallywhat is the standard deviation
of your communication, off ofyour, like, natural, general,
(20:15):
any given day type ofcommunication.
Pete Newsome (20:18):
Okay, that makes sense yeah.
Kate O'Neill (20:20):
Yeah, and then same for me, right, and we kind
of see where the building blocksfit and where they don't fit,
but that's.
Pete Newsome (20:26):
Yeah, that makes.
So.
When you say we, we're talkingAI, right, teaming is an AI, I
know it's not you, you knowlooking over our shoulder.
But what about a scenario wherewhich I think this is this
applies to my internal team, Ithink most teams where now we
used to give disc assessments,people and we tried to hire
(20:46):
based on those, but we kind ofthrew it out the window because
we realized, just because youfall into one category, it
doesn't mean you can't be good.
There's, you know, there's,people can have different
strengths and weaknesses and ifthey apply them the right way,
they can be equally effective.
Right?
So we, we, we don't do itanymore, but we did it.
So I lived that for a while.
But having lived that, I cantell you that some people on our
(21:08):
team have very different styles.
So what, while mine may apply acertain way, how it's going to
be interpreted is going todiffer, if in a group
conversation.
So how do you reconcile that?
Kate O'Neill (21:19):
That's exactly that's so interesting.
You said that.
So that's that's where the realpower of AI comes in, because
our brains can't grok that right.
Like I can't understand whenyou know when you are presenting
this way or when you're notright, machines can do that for
us.
And and I should blanket thisall with sort of a warning which
(21:39):
is this is new, right, we don'tknow what the feedback we're
getting back from this is likewow.
Pete Newsome (21:48):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (21:48):
So me, right.
And that's when you think aboutthe history of things like disk
, myers-briggs, strengths,finder, enneagram, all that
stuff.
They're just frameworks thatour human minds came up with.
They're not based on science,right, right?
And so the the you know the howgood is this thing?
(22:10):
Right, this framework isbasically what we make of it.
Disk has been around for ahundred years because people
think that I did identify.
That is me.
Pete Newsome (22:21):
Right.
Kate O'Neill (22:21):
You know, and we continue to share our, share it
with each other and ask eachother to take and to be known by
other people right To havebetter communication, to do
these things, but it's it's, youknow, it's the, it's still the
stone tablet version, reallyright?
All of those assessments arethat.
Pete Newsome (22:41):
Sure.
Kate O'Neill (22:41):
Now, with AI, right, we can actually attribute
the.
The disk attributes to theactual communication, to the
context, right?
Am I being fired right now?
Am I being promoted right now?
Am I, am I talking to a peer ora boss?
Am I talking to a direct report?
Right, like?
What are the power dynamics?
All that stuff can be fed intoa machine to understand and to
(23:07):
package it together, to knowwhether or not the disk or the
Myers-Briggs or whatever isactually true of us and in what
situations are they true, withwhich people.
And so so we will layer overand in the app you can see, it's
very basic.
Right now, it's just the diskwhere we'll show you who you are
(23:27):
as individuals and then we'llshow you what are your combined
strengths.
So so, kate and Pete together,what are the things they're
really good at together and whatare the things that they need
work on?
Pete Newsome (23:39):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (23:39):
And what's really interesting to me is we
gravitate towards people who arelike us, who communicate like
us.
Pete Newsome (23:47):
Sure makes sense.
Kate O'Neill (23:48):
Because it's easier, right, it's easier to
communicate the way someone youknow to.
When you have a common way ofcommunicating, it just feels
easier to us.
But what's interesting is thattwo similar people have the
biggest blind spots in the waythat they communicate, the way
they behave, the way theyinnovate, the way they have
creative ideas, right?
(24:10):
So you, yes, it's easier, butin the same time, you're more
limited with what you're gonnabe able to do together.
Often, Sure.
We'll see.
Well, you know, like the AI,you know, in five years we'll be
having this conversation.
We will know, you know what.
The truth of these things butit's what we early see, right Is
that two similar people willgravitate towards each other at
(24:31):
first, but have struggles tobreak out of or to do different
things or to communicate indifferent ways that are
necessary, sometimes with thecontext.
Now, the reverse is true fortwo very opposite people, right,
who have opposite communicationstyles.
It's gonna be harder at first,but when they're able to learn
and to grow together, it can bereally fruitful.
(24:54):
They can do different things,explore different areas, have
more creative ideas together,appreciate each other's
strengths and blind spotsbecause it's usually, you know,
compensating for the other,right.
Like we appreciate each other,it's easier to appreciate the
differences.
So I don't know if that answersyou?
Pete Newsome (25:10):
No, it does.
Well, and it makes sense,complete sense.
If two people are, you know,have the exact same perspective
on everything, that doesn'taccount for how they're
communicating externally toanyone else, so they may get
along, you know, fabulously, butas they're trying to share
their message to anyone elsethat doesn't fall in line with
their perspective, it's gonna be.
They're gonna miss out on a lotof opportunities.
Kate O'Neill (25:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and what I think, where machines
also come in, which we're justabout to release this tomorrow.
I cannot wait to see what'sgoing on All right, hot off the
press.
Yeah, so we are.
We now will analyze all like,let's say, this is a one-on-one
you're my manager weekly orbi-weekly one-on-one with you to
go through.
You know how are we progressingtowards our goals?
(25:53):
Am I performing?
You know?
What do you need to know for meabout the work, those kinds of
things that we talk about inone-on-ones.
We will now analyze the series,the one-on-one series, and say
hey to you.
We'll say hey, you know, here'sa list of suggested topics for
your next one-on-one and theyare based on topics that never
(26:16):
came to resolution in yourrecent one-on-ones.
Right, we will show you whythat is important, based on my
communication style.
Let's say I brought up the factthat I don't have various
detailed career goals once threemonths ago.
That could mean a lot to me,but I didn't bring it up.
I only brought it up once andit didn't come to resolution and
(26:39):
it's not my style to bring itup again right, okay.
Teaming will now tell you hey,this is important, or it's
likely important, to Kate.
Maybe you should bring it upagain.
And then we'll also remind youof the context from your last
conversation.
Where did you leave theconversation, so you can pick up
with it where you left offright, I mean this sounds
(27:01):
amazing really.
Pete Newsome (27:02):
I didn't know much about teaming before this
conversation right now, and I'mthinking of so many applications
for it in my own situation andwhat has limited me as a manager
, and one employee in particularcomes to mind where, great
employee, there's so much goodbut there's just a conflict,
always under the surface, thatseems when we communicate with
(27:24):
each other.
Right, where I say something,it sounds one way coming from me
, but I know it's interpreted adifferent way consistently and
it's frustrating, and I knowit's frustrating for this
individual as well.
Right, because I think I don'tthink I should have that
reaction Like I didn't.
I thought this was going to besomething you'd like to hear and
(27:46):
clearly body language, tone,you can read how well the
message is delivered, but itdoesn't necessarily mean you can
do something about it, and Ithink that's been such a
limitation for me and so manyothers.
I don't think my plight in thisis that much of an anomaly where
I mean well, but the deliveryis.
(28:06):
Now, if someone is aligned withme, the delivery is great.
Here it is few words, boom,we're off and running.
But that's limiting.
You can't scale that way as abusiness.
I can Guarantee that is limitedour growth over the years?
Kate O'Neill (28:22):
Look, yeah, I mean we started out this.
How do you solve this problem?
Sometimes it can't be solvedright, sometimes it's just where
we are in life or what we havegoing on, or whatever the case
may be right.
And sometimes it is that with ahard employee, you can lead
someone to water but you can'tmake them drink, kind of things.
But we can make sure that we'redoing and we can now understand
(28:45):
at a deeper level those peopleand understand that we are doing
everything we can to make thatperson a success and that's how
I rest at night.
I don't know about you, butlike hey, I've done everything I
can do.
This person can either come toit and want to work here, see
the career progression theycould have, see the potential
(29:08):
money they could make, whatevertheir motivations are, which
teaming will help you to knowright, sometimes it's just not
going to work out, but I thinkwe can make a way better impact
on employee turnover and we are.
We're seeing it.
Pete Newsome (29:23):
That's so fascinating.
Kate O'Neill (29:25):
One-on-one great connection.
Pete Newsome (29:27):
I can point to the time where the world shifted,
the societal shift kicked ingenerational shift is probably
the better way to put it wherewhat had allowed us to grow up
until that point, what I wastaught, what I believed to be
all that was necessary as far asopportunity that was presented
to employees.
An employee resigned because hewanted to pursue his passion,
(29:51):
and the passion was going to paysignificantly less, and it was
a road that had nothing to dowith the one we were on, and I
looked at him like he was crazyfor resigning, for walking away
from a significant income to onethat wasn't nearly as good and
not going to lead to the samekind of path, and that was 2014.
(30:13):
And not long after that.
I didn't know what I was seeingat the time but, looking back,
that was the beginning of a bigshift in generational
perspectives and what wasimportant and what I was kind of
alluded to earlier, what Ithought I needed to provide as
an employer, what I wanted as anemployee, was no longer enough,
and it now employs expects somuch more than I did coming out
(30:39):
of school, and once that isingrained, it doesn't really
change.
I don't think so.
Now we have a generation whograduated or is coming into
their professional life at atime where they could work from
wherever you want.
I mean, while I'm a fan of that, well, it's hard to go
backwards, that genie's hard toput back in the bottle.
And so many young professionalsnow came out of school at a
(31:02):
time where it was so much, itwas an employee's market to a
degree that I haven't seen inthe 30 years since I graduated
from college.
Well, boy, talk about settingyour perspective in a dangerous
way, because now that pendulumhas swung back a little bit,
it's not so much an employee'smarket anymore, and so it's
struggle.
So there's all these thingsthat my age is hard to contend
(31:25):
with and see their perspective,but it's absolutely necessary.
So, as you're talking, I'mthinking this is, boy, what a I
mean what a solution for themodern time that we're in.
Kate O'Neill (31:37):
Well, look what you're.
The perspective you have rightof the last 30 years is an
important one, but even take itout further, right.
This is the first time in humanhistory where teams have been
as diverse as they are.
It's the first time in humanhistory where remote work is a
possibility.
(31:58):
Right, it's the first time atall.
Yes, it's the first time inhuman history where we have four
generations in the workplace.
Right, it was like one or twoat best.
Pete Newsome (32:10):
Right.
Kate O'Neill (32:11):
Now it's three or four and that's sort of like age
diversity, right.
But it makes making thosecommon human connections, where
we see people who are similar tous, where we do communicate,
really easily, right, which isan important part of our working
world and our community and allthat as is, you know,
(32:32):
connecting with others.
But you see less of that, andso the the, the responsibility
of making sure that the teamcreates the connections
necessary for healthy, highperformance, is harder.
It's just harder than it's everbeen.
Pete Newsome (32:49):
Oh, by the way, at a time where we don't interact
with each other outside ofbusiness, we don't see each
other in the hall, walk, in theparking lot at lunch.
You know all those things.
This is it.
This is all you get and thelimited feedback that you know
that comes with it.
That's something that I, youknow.
I'm trying to watch 15 peopleat once on zoom to see how a
statement you know is isreceived right, which is nearly
(33:11):
impossible.
Kate O'Neill (33:13):
The other thing that is become less structured
as well.
So we we talked about agile.
You probably are familiar withthis agile transformation, right
?
Pete Newsome (33:20):
Of course.
Kate O'Neill (33:22):
You know, 30 years ago.
I felt this way 10 years ago,where I worked in the marketing
department.
I talked to other marketers allday and I did marketing work
and and.
Fast forward just 10 years andit's like I spend most of my
time with sales people, customersuccess people, it tech
developer people to delivermarketing projects.
Right, because that's the worldwe live in now.
(33:46):
And so we're not even speakingthe same common functional
language with most of the peoplewe work with.
And then, finally, the way thatwe've progressed in our career
changes too.
So we used to have a very like,we used to have very
hierarchical organizations whereyou, you know, you got past, I
got promoted, I went up this way.
(34:06):
Now it's very and it'scontinuing this trend to be way
more horizontal, where ourability to influence people and
to, to you know, sell our ideaor help to inspire people to
work on the project that we'redoing, those skills become, so
like, more important than everbecause there's not a clear path
(34:26):
.
The path is, you know, pivotson the mountain rather than a
straight line yes, yes,absolutely.
So a young?
I feel so bad for a youngperson because there's no
playbook anymore.
Pete Newsome (34:40):
Well it?
Well, because that's how Zendigcame to be and we talked a
little bit about that.
Now we're talking about youknow, we're here through through
, you know, in this podcastbecause of a four corner
resources, the staffing companythat I'm president of.
But we launched Zendig and thereason why it's a Z in the
because it's a winding path.
(35:00):
So our original logo, which wecouldn't really make work to
come to agreement on you're amarketing person, you know how
this goes, but but we loved thepremise of a winding path
because that is so true.
What people go to school for andI won't go down this road right
now whether they should go toschool, whether they need to,
and there is no great source forfinding those answers.
(35:23):
And then when you're out in thereal world, it's even worse,
because now you're there aloneand you have bills to pay and
responsibilities and you have tofigure all this out and it's a
mess, right.
And so if you don't feel, Imean as you're talking, I get it
.
I mean I hate that so manypeople who've worked for us over
the years have not felt thatthey could just be open with us
(35:47):
and communicate with us andconnect.
It's probably been the hardestthing for me to overcome and
even though it's been 18 yearssince I started my own business
was feeling like the emperorwith no clothes, like because
I'm the last to know ifsomeone's upset or bothered by
something.
And we've made policy changesand procedures.
I mean you have to put thestuff in place as you grow as an
organization.
(36:07):
Even though I didn't want to atfirst, I wanted to be free and
not let policy and procedureever slow us down.
I still think we do that, butwe have to have some structure.
And to find out that peoplewere so upset by these changes
but just there was no mechanismby which they could communicate.
And it sounds like you'rehelping solve a lot of these
(36:27):
problems, which I think is sonecessary and important.
Kate O'Neill (36:33):
It's just hard to navigate work these days.
Right, we'll use the power ofAI to help with human connection
.
Right, automate the things wecan automate so that we can
focus on communicating well,connecting well and using a
machine to help me betterunderstand people.
It just makes sense, right?
What I love so much about whenI see new users of Teaming is
(36:57):
that everything's private, right, so you'll see the feedback
about your own communicationwith me just to you, right?
No one else can see that.
But what happens, which I love,is that they'll share it with
each other and say was thisright?
Like, is this how you felt?
Right, and that's the ahamoment.
(37:18):
Right, that's when two peopleare taking the conversation
offline, outside of the machine,to really use it as a
connection point.
Right, to better understandeach other.
And that's what we're lookingfor at work, you know, or that's
what we need.
Right, there is actual scienceon what is always true of a
(37:39):
healthy, high performing team,no matter what team type it is,
no matter how long you've beenworking together, whether you're
co-located or remote, right,none of that matters.
There's actual attributes ofthe way the group operates that
are necessary to be healthy andhigh performing, and that's what
we want to help teams be ableto focus on.
It's the hard stuff, it's trust, it's accountability, it's, you
(38:03):
know, commitment.
It's focus right, shared focus.
Those things are so hard tobuild, so let's one automate
what we can so we can stayengaged in the human connection
of things and then use machinesto help us understand where
we're connecting and where we'renot, to be better right.
Pete Newsome (38:23):
Oh man, so true, so necessary.
All right, I'm convinced anyonewho's listening now will would
be.
You could not be from thisconversation.
So where do we go?
So someone's, if we'reinterested in teaming, want to
learn more, want to use, youknow, get started, walk, walk me
through that.
Kate O'Neill (38:41):
Yeah, good question.
So one, I'm always available.
I try.
We're a small team and this isstill new.
By the way, we're a prettyyoung company.
There's still a lot of work weneed to do.
So I say that all with thecaveat of we'll work with us on
it.
On it, it might not be the theI shouldn't say that people have
really great experience upfront, but I try to really talk
to everyone.
(39:01):
So if you're interested inbeing a customer, send me a DM
on on LinkedIn.
I'm always ready to either hopon a zoom, walk you through it
in a shared video.
However you prefer tocommunicate, I'll do.
But you can sign up on your ownif you want to.
At teamingcom you can sign upfree.
There's a 14 day free trial Ifyou need an extension on that, I
(39:22):
know someone need more timewith it, but but yeah, you can
kind of choose your ownadventure.
When you sign up and you get totake your disc assessment, you
invite teaming into yourmeetings.
It works in person too, so itworks.
If you're going into a meetingroom and you've got like the
room reserved, we'll hook intothe mic to in the room to
(39:42):
actually do it in person Ifthat's your, your style or
that's how you're you're set up.
So, yeah, that that's how it,that that's where it is and the
agenda things coming outtomorrow, so that'll be part of
your free trial.
Pete Newsome (39:54):
Awesome.
Kate O'Neill (39:55):
It takes some time right.
We learn over time, so thelonger you use it, the more
smart it gets.
Pete Newsome (40:02):
That's, that's AI, right.
It is someone who's used italmost daily for the for a
little over a year now.
The learning, the, the, theback and forth, the interaction
is is is fascinating to watchand we're just we're just at the
or just scratching the surfaceof where it's going.
Kate O'Neill (40:20):
For you, and maybe this is the age old question I
don't said no one ever.
Pete Newsome (40:24):
Okay, great, I can't wait to hear what's next.
Kate O'Neill (40:27):
Because hiring gets all the glory and the money
and the.
You know the excitement.
Right Is, is that right when?
How do we find new people?
How do we find the right people?
Right, it's, it's the, it's thelike new toy always in in this
industry.
Right Versus hey, how do wemake it work with the people
we've got?
Pete Newsome (40:47):
Yeah, well, get well, okay.
So let me I can address that.
We are not in the retentionbusiness, but you'd be surprised
at how many companies blame uswith.
You know, as an industry, right, In a profession, when the,
when the employee doesn't workout despite that.
And so you mentioned somethinga few minutes ago.
You said that it's thingsaren't perfect yet.
(41:08):
Well, things are never going tobe perfect.
One of the things that I've saidover the years to prospective
clients is don't think thatworking with us will eliminate
problems.
I guarantee you will haveproblems if we work together
enough, because people are ourproduct, is people right, and so
our product walks and talks andthanks and gets drunk on Sunday
night and doesn't show up onMonday.
(41:29):
So we have that element.
Right, your software is notgoing out partying tonight,
right, it's going to be there inthe morning.
Well, ours has a spouse that isbad influence and has car
problems, and you know you nameit right.
So there's that.
But also, we're the outsiders,we're the, so we, our
(41:50):
relationships are best.
So, having been in thisindustry a long time, I've the
hiring happens a whole lot ofdifferent ways, but what works
well for us is where we'reconsidered an extension of the
organization we work with.
They really consider us apartner, and I don't mean that
in the cliche way, becauseeveryone says that, but where
they see value in what we do.
And you know that from fromyour career to where, if you're
(42:15):
just a vendor, that the secondyou make a mistake or do
something wrong or you're notvalued, then there's no
relationship at all and it'sreally not healthy.
And so staffing could be great,but it could also be fraught
with challenges.
I'll just say so don't beenvious.
I was going to say I haven't.
Kate O'Neill (42:35):
It's a really interesting perspective because
I haven't thought about thatLike I.
You know, you see all theamazing things that the tech and
the, you know, all theresources that go into staffing
and and I don't think about thereverse of you get blamed too.
Pete Newsome (42:49):
And I'll tell you the interesting.
So when I started this is howold I am in 1993, we didn't have
monster career builder.
The internet wasn't, wasn't?
I mean, the internet existedthanks to Al Gore, but it but it
wasn't a thing that you had onyour desktop and certainly not
in the form it is today.
So when I would post job ads, Iwould do it in newspaper, trade
(43:11):
magazines, resumes would bemailed and faxed to me, and I
didn't know where the nextcandidate resume was going to
come from, right when, if I goon LinkedIn today, there's
thousands and thousands, and sothere's always another one to
come, and so I didn't have toplace as much value on that
individual interaction andconversation.
So when I had a resume if I hadyour resume, Kate, it was like
(43:33):
gold, because I may not haveanother one to, I may not have
another person to call, so Iwouldn't have to invest fully in
that conversation.
It made me really good.
I had to be good Now, and sotechnology.
This is a good example of wheretechnology has made us not as
good as we used to be, and soyou know, I sound like the old
guy saying that, and my teamprobably rolls their eyes when
(43:55):
they hear it.
But I'll back that up all daylong.
Because you didn't have anyother choice, you couldn't rely
on technology, and so it's acrutch and it's a good one.
I wouldn't trade it.
I don't want to go backwards,it's just made us more efficient
.
But anyone who's on LinkedIntoday sees the complaints that
happen.
Candidates, you know,frustrated they can't get an
interview.
Recruiters won't call them backand it is impractical.
(44:17):
If you're a recruiter, if youhave a thousand applicants for a
job you're never going to see.
You know, number 101 to number1000, you're just never going to
.
So it's a.
It's a weird system right nowthat we've created for
recruiting.
Kate O'Neill (44:32):
That's a great perspective.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I I've never thought of it thatway and now that you say that,
like, I think there's oneexecutive recruiter that I've
really enjoyed and actuallytrusted right to place me
somewhere, whereas everythingelse has just been through my
network, because it's who youtrust right and there has to be
(44:52):
a level of trust there on bothsides.
For a recruiter, the company'sgot to trust you to find the
right person and the rightperson has to trust you to place
them in the right environment.
It's it's really hard work andI absolutely see how technology
can be a correction, correction.
That world.
Pete Newsome (45:08):
It has.
It has become that, you know,with the need for efficiency and
speed, where I would argue it's, it's in, there's, there's
third parties now that exist toset.
They exist in between thehiring manager and the staffing
companies, and that sounds greaton paper If you're the company
saying, hey, you look, howefficient this is and, by the
way, we charge the staffingcompany for that service and
(45:31):
your managers don't have to getinvolved, and I would reject
that entirely.
If I'm hiring for you, I haveto hear from you, I have to know
who you want, not just what youneed.
And if I'm doing my job well,I'm going to deliver one resume
to you and that's the personyou're going to hire.
And so I will never recruitbased on volume, even though
(45:52):
that's become attractive.
So I could go on for days aboutthat.
You're getting more than youasked for with that question.
Kate O'Neill (45:58):
No, I'm glad, I'm glad he mindset to, and maybe
this is wrong to think this way.
But hire slow, fire fast.
Hiring slow right is reallyjust like finding the right
person is so important.
Pete Newsome (46:15):
But that can go too far too.
I saw the best post on LinkedInan hour before we got on today.
I'm going to try to get exactlyit said.
If Alabama can replace the bestcoach in the history of college
coaching in a day, how come ittakes you so long to fill your
accounting opening?
It was so perfect.
(46:35):
I'm like man.
I wish I had written thatbecause you know, because to
your point, like I get it.
You're like I want to find theperfect person, and I would
argue there's no perfect right,there is no perfect person.
So find the person that feelsgood.
And I've been on that,receiving a niche position.
This is years ago and there wasone person in the state of
Florida qualified for the role Imean, and we delivered this
(46:58):
person just by sheer luck is incoincidence as much as anything
else.
Finding them so quickly.
But within a couple of days ofbeing asked to fill this role,
and the C level person who wewere recruiting for was so
freaked out by that.
She's like I can't hire thisperson right away and I'm like
why she goes?
Because it's too fast.
I'm like but it's, but theperson's perfect.
(47:19):
And she's like I know but and soshe couldn't come out with any
words or phrases to justify it,but it was that uncertain
feeling and fortunately I took amonth to get her, to convince
her that there was no othercandidate.
Because she said, well, send memore.
I'm like there is no more andI'm not doing my job If I'm
going to send you someone not asgood as the one I've already
(47:39):
sent.
Right, that doesn't reflectwell on me.
So it's, as you get into the onthe recruiter side of the table
, you see a little bit of adifferent perspective.
I think, yeah, that'sinteresting.
Kate O'Neill (47:49):
I want to come to that.
To me that's the perfectexample of they.
They retained their old coachfor a very long time and they
did succession planning, I'msure right with him as things.
You know.
They did the things with thepeople that they had really well
so that they could recruitreally fast, you know.
Pete Newsome (48:12):
I don't know.
But this new guy, I mean, doyou know much?
I don't know if you're acollege football fan, but they
hired the guy who was sort ofthe hot, you know, you know, new
coach.
He was the coach of Washingtonand they, they, they just were
in the championship game and sohe just bailed on Washington to
go over there and it justhappened so fast.
And you're thinking replacingNick Saban.
You know the arguably you know,the winning best coach of all
(48:34):
time.
I don't know the stats or he'snot the only good coach, but
it's, I'm like man.
That was, that was.
How can you replace this legendthat quickly?
And they did it.
So it was such a good post on.
Like that, I'm like man.
I wish that was mine.
Well, kate, this has been.
You've been so generous withyour time.
I'm going to put you on the spotwith one more question,
actually two.
Let me ask you this.
(48:55):
One first Team size.
We didn't, we didn't cover that.
Is there a team that's toosmall or too big?
No, okay.
So teams of any size.
You want them, you can helpthem, love it.
So here's my put you on thespot question.
I would love to have you back onand talk about your path as a
co-founder with three otherco-founders, I think and now
(49:19):
you're the CEO.
But that is a journey that Ithink a lot of people would be
interested in, because that's ahard thing to navigate.
That's a lot of, that's a lotof chiefs, and not everyone does
that effectively.
So I'd love to have thatconversation too, because, as
I'm sure you know, havingstarted your own business, now
people like say the same thingto you that they have to me for
years I want to do that, I wantto go on my own, I want to and
(49:40):
there's pros and cons of that,there's pitfalls.
It's not as.
It's not as rosy as some peoplethink.
So can you come back on at somepoint and have that
conversation?
Kate O'Neill (49:50):
I would absolutely love to.
I'll say say briefly well, myco, one of my co-founders, is my
old boss and now technically hereports to me.
Pete Newsome (50:00):
Nice, very nice.
Kate O'Neill (50:01):
Yeah, it is interesting.
Yeah, I would love to to talkabout it.
I never expected to do this, soso, yeah, I would love to to to
chat about the path and and howit came to be.
And then, lastly, on team size,something that we talk about a
lot in teaming, which is we'vearchitected teaming in such a
way where the team is private.
(50:22):
So, like, the most importantthing between relationships and
the group dynamic is trust.
Right, do I trust this personand do I trust this group?
And so there is no, there's nocompany view in teaming.
There's no HR, no admin, no ITthat can go in and see your
stuff, and that's been a that isa massive change that's going
(50:45):
to need to happen in enterprisesoftware.
Right, do we expect that youknow our?
Well?
I don't know if.
Can our whole family see ourInstagram?
Or our whole whole family seeour Facebook?
Right now?
Like, it's just, it's your,it's your profile?
Yes, it's your team, and so weteam side, you can have a team
of any size, but it's private tojust the people on the team,
(51:07):
like, people outside the teamcan't even see that the team
exists when they sign up forteaming Nice, and so that's
something that is foundational,right.
So it does change his group,like, if it's a team of two like
you, you know, you, me and youit's it is going to be different
because there isn't groupdynamics at play.
If there were 10 or 12 of us,that's different, right.
(51:29):
If there's 50 of us, that's,that's different.
150.
Have you heard of Dunbar'snumber?
It's, it's like from the daysof hunting and gathering, where
we can't know more than 150people.
Okay, okay.
So when a company gets like at148, everyone can know each
(51:50):
other at 151.
Impossible, interesting.
Pete Newsome (51:54):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (51:55):
You know, truly like it's that stark of a change
and so so like that's adifferent.
You know you can have a team of150 people we have them but the
expectations and the dynamicsare so different.
You know, that's sort of like atechnical answer but also a
philosophical answer that we tryto help people to understand as
(52:15):
they onboard in teaming thatespecially when your team grows,
the dynamic is going to change.
There will be new challengesand same with contracting right
there there are layoffs orwhatever.
The dynamic is going to change.
There's going to be hard thingsto work through, but you do it
together and that's the goodthing and you'll have a private
space to actually do that.
Pete Newsome (52:37):
That's so important because employees need
that outlet.
They want that outlet.
They go public when they don'thave a private space to do it
and no one no one wins with thatright Because it just it
creates.
It's a bad scenario thatcurrently exists and you're
solving that.
That's huge.
That's awesome.
I love it.
I think you are so, kate, thankyou You're.
(52:59):
We're going to put all yourcontact information in the show
notes.
You're easy to find on LinkedInteamingcom.
Couldn't be easier.
I love the domain.
You'll have to tell me laterhow you got that one.
I will say also we are.
Kate O'Neill (53:11):
We are in the process of rebranding, so
teamingcom will always go to ournew domain, and we don't have
that yet, but it will bedifferent at some point.
Okay, all right, we'll get thatout there, just in case someone
goes to teamingcom in thefuture and it's different, it's
still us, but different.
Pete Newsome (53:27):
All right, we'll be on standby to see it.
We look forward to it and I'mexcited to see everything you're
going to do, and I'm now goingto be talking to my CFO about
how we we start to become acustomer too, because I think it
just makes sense.
So I'm convinced and, like Isaid earlier, everyone else has
to be too after listening tothis.
Okay, thank you.
Kate O'Neill (53:43):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me and Ican't wait to come back.
Pete Newsome (53:47):
You're, you're, you're committed, awesome, all
right, everyone, thanks forlistening.
You're listening to the hire calling podcast.
(00:01):
I'm Pete Newsome, and my guesttoday is Kate O'Neill.
Kate's a co-founder and CEO ofteaming, a team intelligence
software platform for managersto help them build healthy, high
performing teams at work.
Kate, welcome, how are youtoday?
Oh good, thank you so much forhaving me, pete.
Awesome to have you here.
I've been trying to get you onfor a while now.
Kate O'Neill (00:20):
Well, I appreciate your patience.
You know I said this backstage,but I love the content you all
are doing and I'm excited forour conversation.
Pete Newsome (00:28):
Well, it's a small world.
It's really neat to connectbecause we met on LinkedIn.
Then you posted something thatled me to meet someone else,
josh Hammons.
So we'll have to make sure Joshwatches this, and Josh and I
have become friends since that.
We're friends on Facebook.
Now We've met in person.
We're talking about doing somethings together professionally.
It's really a cool way to useLinkedIn, so thank you for that.
Kate O'Neill (00:50):
Real human can be cool to see that it's moving
beyond just connections with me.
Pete Newsome (00:56):
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things on
LinkedIn.
I'm not sure if you're a Reddituser, but we talk a lot
internally about the LinkedInlunatics subreddit, so if you
haven't discovered it yet,there's one on.
Kate O'Neill (01:06):
Twitter.
I'm going to find what thehandle is and send it to you,
but it's basically like.
Basically it's calling peopleout in posts, being like this
isn't a real story, nice, nice.
Pete Newsome (01:16):
Well, that's a problem, though, with LinkedIn
right now, where I know thesearen't real stories and I won't
name names, but there's hugeaccounts and they make these
stories and they're sellingtheir service and you can't.
Yeah, I don't begrudge anyonedoing that, but I just want to
say come on, like this is.
This is awful, and, being instaffing, at times it's even
worse, because we see the advicethat gets the most likes and
(01:37):
shares and comments is stuffthat would get someone fired on
the spot, like no one should berecommending it.
Kate O'Neill (01:44):
It's bad content, it's bad advice, yeah, but it's,
it's dramatic.
So people, it catches people'seye and they're like, ooh, you
know, or or it's so heartwarmingthat people don't realize that
it's not real.
If you're doing that kind ofstuff, it's just for likes and
clicks and not for realconnections.
So I always take that with agrand assault and say, well, you
(02:06):
know, I don't think anythingmeaningful will lead from it,
but maybe but it works.
Pete Newsome (02:10):
I mean, that's the struggle that I have.
I don't know if you do as well,but it's a struggle between
posting.
I just can't sell out to thatpoint.
Now I will confess I've startedposting some memes on LinkedIn
and you know what I'm.
I'm, I'm embarrassed to saythat gets way more interaction
and engagement than our seriousstuff.
And we talked a little bitabout TikTok before we started
(02:31):
recording our biggest TikTokvideo.
I mean, we put out careeradvice all day, every day.
Our biggest, our most viralvideo 33 million views.
I think the last time I lookedwas a little boy pushing over
his sister Like and with a funnycomment about, like Monday, how
Monday feels, or something likethat.
I'm like oh, what has happenedin my life?
Kate O'Neill (02:49):
Well, I mean, look , if you're, if you're, if that
stuff is, is is crushing rightand the stuff that's like
serious, you know it's a balanceright, the person who engaged
with the brother and sister.
Now they'll actually see thereal content and that will start
to do better and better Right.
So it's like you know it's,it's sugar and vegetables.
Pete Newsome (03:10):
That's right.
Kate O'Neill (03:11):
You know, so I like it.
Pete Newsome (03:12):
That's, that's our justification, right?
It's brand recognition at work,so we'll keep doing it, and I.
It's snowing in the backgroundwhere you are, and you're only
in Tennessee, that is.
That's amazing.
Kate O'Neill (03:23):
We are today it's only 2 pm and then apparently
it's going to snow again onThursday and Friday.
So yeah, we're getting, we'regetting dumped on.
Pete Newsome (03:33):
How unusual is that it does mean for where you
are.
Kate O'Neill (03:36):
I think this has happened maybe two other times,
and I moved here in 2019.
So you know, less than once ayear for sure.
Pete Newsome (03:46):
Wow, I'm envious.
I'm in Florida, it's actually Icould use some beach time.
Oh yeah, but it's too cold togo to the beach and but but it's
too warm to really enjoy thewinter.
It's done now.
I would trade.
If you ever want to trade, Well, we'll have to talk about that.
Kate O'Neill (04:02):
Let's do it.
I like to come down to meet youand Josh.
Pete Newsome (04:05):
So, yes, indeed, yeah, well, we'll, we'll plan on
it, so, but so 2019.
So tell me about your careerleading up to teaming, because
that's when you start.
You found the teaming Right, isthat?
Is that what brought you toNashville?
Kate O'Neill (04:17):
It sort of Anders and I.
Previous company was calledLean Kit.
It did really large scaleproject management and process
management for really largeenterprises and I was their head
of marketing.
And then our former CEO, ourformer CIO and our former head
of engineering all got togetherafter that company sold and said
(04:37):
we want to get the gang backtogether again.
We saw the opportunity forteaming while at our previous
company.
So I actually knew when I tookthe job.
I was living in Atlanta at thetime and I knew that they were
venture backed company and theywould sell and you know, call it
three to four years tops.
And so I didn't want to sell myhouse in Atlanta.
(04:58):
So I commuted up to Nashvillefor a few years.
I'd come up Monday morning, I'dleave Thursday night, I took
most Fridays off don't tellanyone and and so that that
company sold within three yearsand and I was like great, I
didn't sell my house but I didwhat I wanted to do career wise.
It was a great opportunity forme.
But then when I loved the teamand we said let's start teaming,
(05:22):
it was like all right, I got tomake the move now, because this
is going to be a 10 year thingat least.
So so I made the move about sixmonths before the pandemic.
Okay, that's interesting.
Pete Newsome (05:34):
Didn't see that come in, obviously.
Kate O'Neill (05:36):
No, so I didn't have to move, I guess, but I'm
really glad I did.
I love Nashville.
I still get back to Atlanta allthe time.
My family's there.
It's a.
It's three hours, three hoursand 15 minutes or so from door
to door for me and I was therelast weekend quick weekend trip,
and so that's.
It's nice to be in a place Ilove to live, but close enough
(05:56):
to family where I can see them.
It's just a car ride away.
Nice, that's a good distance.
Pete Newsome (06:00):
That's appropriate .
You don't want to be too close,that's good.
Now, so how did, how did COVIDaffect you guys?
You started this business, youhad plans and then, boom, the
world starts to fall apartaround you.
Yeah.
Kate O'Neill (06:13):
And what stinks is like you know.
You would think that the risein remote work it did increase
demand for tools like teaming,but we were just starting to
write code for it and so wedidn't have.
We weren't there to capitalizeon it, which Okay, thanks.
But but it actually was greatin the sense that I don't know
(06:33):
how much you follow, like thefunding industry, tech markets,
but you know a lot of money gotpumped into coming right.
Pete Newsome (06:41):
I do yes, yes.
Kate O'Neill (06:43):
We stayed.
We stayed nimble and scrappyand and we took on a little bit
of angel money, but we didn't goout and try to raise you know
gobs of money at an unreasonablevaluation.
And so those businesses a lotof them haven't met their scale
needs right to the money thatthey they took in at that time
and so they've gone out ofbusiness.
Pete Newsome (07:04):
It's happening a lot lately.
Kate O'Neill (07:06):
Yeah, and we're I mean knock on wood, here We've
we've survived, so that's beenreally helpful.
You know it was hard, right.
Everyone's taking all thismoney, this, you know, it's like
the golden age of startup andand people are well, you're not
doing that too, and so that wasa hard, hard moment.
Pete Newsome (07:26):
But if you, if you can get away with not doing
that, what a home run, that's awin.
Kate O'Neill (07:30):
You keep, keep the ownership.
Pete Newsome (07:31):
Yes.
Kate O'Neill (07:33):
So that's, you know I'm happy where that ended
up.
It was kind of hard, but andthe other thing that was hard is
, like you know, if you've everyou've done this where you're,
you're trying to understand orachieve product market fit, but
the the the market keepschanging.
The world moved so fast orremote.
Well, are we going back?
I'm not sure.
You know like now, this hybridthing the world around us, the
(07:57):
social things that were going onduring that time all of that
affected people managers in adifferent way at a different
time, and so we felt like it wasa little bit of whack-a-mole to
try to understand the problemthat they were facing because it
kept changing.
So that was.
That was really hard.
I think we've now narrowed inon how to really help managers
(08:18):
and we've really started to seesome some nice growth there.
Pete Newsome (08:22):
So that's awesome.
Kate O'Neill (08:23):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (08:24):
Well, let's go back.
Let's go backwards in a littlebit.
What was the original premisefor teaming?
How did it come to be?
Good question.
Kate O'Neill (08:32):
So I mentioned, as I mentioned, we were a project
management software company.
You know our last company thatsold and that company you know
when we, when we would go intowork with, call it like every,
almost every corporate worker atWalmart used our software then
and we would go to teams andunderstand how are we making you
work faster?
That was the promise of thesoftware is.
(08:54):
You know, we can help you havebetter processes so that you can
deliver work faster.
And we would see like we were.
We're measuring their work sowe can see you know Walmart's 3%
more efficient.
That's millions and millions ofdollars.
They're bottom line.
But when you went and talked tothe teams, they didn't feel
faster and you're like, well,walk me through that a little
(09:15):
bit.
And we realized we weren'tdoing anything about what the
the most important part of ourcapacity or our speed to deliver
work, which is our attitude,our engagement at work, and our
old software did none of that.
In fact, it took, it took awaya little bit from our engagement
(09:35):
because it made people feel alittle bit like a number.
Like you know, I'm just thismachine to go do work, which you
know we're here to work, butbecause it was so, you know
anyone could do this, or everyteam is doing this in the same
way.
So what's special about howwe're doing it?
It's not me, someone else coulddo this job, no problem.
(09:56):
It made them feel a little bitunder.
So we said, all right, this is,these are human problems, and
that's you know.
Where we said All right, thisis what teaming is going to
focus on is how do we helpmanagers and their teams create
the environment they want towork, in that they can deliver
work fast, in that they canincrease their capacity to do
(10:17):
work, and so that's what teamingdoes.
Pete Newsome (10:20):
That is an incredibly large challenge Right
, I mean in a big statement foryou to make.
I mean because I can tell you,having owned a business now for
18 years and wanting nothingmore.
When I started the company, Ifounded the business to be the
(10:40):
company I couldn't find as anemployee, and that meant a
number of different things to me, but I found that what I wanted
wasn't necessarily whateveryone else wanted over the
years, as we started to grow,and I found that to probably be
my biggest limiter over theyears, and that part of that is
I'm I'm a career salesperson.
(11:01):
I'm someone who was comfortableenough with my skill set and
abilities to start a business.
I had the right drive andmotivation and work ethic and
all those things just have to bein place and I had the right
idea.
I thought I could execute on it.
But that's an entirely differentskill set than managing a team.
I've come to realize to apainful degree at times, and
(11:23):
that is something that I willtell you, 18 years in, I've not
been able to solve, and I wanteveryone to like what they're
doing.
I want everyone to feelincluded and to be happy.
But that's an incrediblydifficult thing and so, ok,
you've decided we can solve thisright.
How?
How do you go about doing that?
Where do you start?
Kate O'Neill (11:43):
Yeah, good question, well one.
I think you are not alone.
People feel that very much.
I mean, when you think aboutwhen you became a manager for
the first time, right, or maybeit's when you're owning your own
business, but even still youare now a manager, people don't
think about that.
If you're a salesperson, youthink about the craft of sales,
(12:03):
which does involve people, soyou can get a little close, but
you don't really think about Ineed to learn a new profession
when I'm a manager.
Pete Newsome (12:15):
Perfect way to put it.
Kate O'Neill (12:16):
Yes, yeah, there is this stigma out there too
that we should just be good atthis, right, because we're
either a natural leader, like oh, he's got natural leadership
skills, so he should just knowhow to do this, or we think
we're a bad person if we're nota good manager, right, or like
(12:37):
this is a reflection of who weare as people rather than as our
skills, and that's onemisconception I try to get out
right in front is management isits own distinct profession with
its unique skills that havenothing to do with your
functional area of expertise.
Number one and number two theyare skills, just like anything
(13:02):
is a skill, right?
Yes, you can have naturalinclinations to be a good leader
.
There are things about ouridentity and our personality
that make one leader maybebetter suited or better to start
as a leader, but if you don'tcontinue to nurture those things
and become an expert in them,become a learner of those things
(13:24):
, you're not going to get better.
Pete Newsome (13:26):
And no one's.
I think you'd agree with this,but I believe anyone's
intentionally bad at it, andthey are bad, and I think, now
more than ever, employees havehigher expectations on their
manager.
They're more critical outwardly, publicly, at times, as we've
probably all seen over the pastweek with this video that this
(13:48):
young lady who was being firedor terminated from her software
job have you seen it?
You haven't seen this?
All right then.
I'm going to move on from itthough, but she recorded herself
being laid off, and it's beenpretty viral over the past week
and the criticism that comes outfor, just as Vittorol claimed,
(14:11):
the employer.
It is so quick to happen now,and I always think well, no one
is intentionally being awful,right, they, and so All right,
so so that's a huge problem.
We know it's a problem, I'mpart of the problem, god knows
that.
So where do you go from there?
I mean, how do you even beginto tackle that cake?
Because that's justinsurmountable, it seems to me.
Kate O'Neill (14:34):
Well, people, problems are messy problems, for
sure, and I think it's alsoreframe a little bit.
You know you might solve oneproblem and then use that same
approach for another, verysimilar problem at a different
time, and it's a different time,and that right.
So the world is changing aroundyou as you're trying to
navigate these things likecommunication or having hard
(14:57):
conversations, the things thatmanagers need to do, like firing
someone.
There are just ways that youlearn how to do these things
that I think are good, justfirst principles of management
that some managers know, somedon't.
A lot of companies don't teachthem, so then they don't know.
So that's sort of like layerone.
(15:18):
Ok, what are the firstprinciples of management?
Layer two is how can we helppeople to do these things faster
?
So that's where that's whereteaming Well, I would say we do
both which is teaming is asoftware platform where you do
your work, so we are in yourmeetings.
I don't have it in here, butlike it's an assistant that
joins every meeting for you andtakes meeting notes, right, so
(15:40):
you can stay engaged in theconversation.
You can really see activelistening, right, all the things
that we know are important, andso we're automating where we
can.
We are automating things forparticularly managers, because
that's usually where it starts,right, where they're setting the
tone.
They're setting what's behavioris acceptable, what's not.
(16:02):
How we're going to communicate,what are our team norms going
to be right?
So there's a lot of help fromteaming to the manager.
But the team member is alsoincluded, right, they are also
using teaming in their meetingsand we say, ok, we're going to
automate what we can and thenwe're going to coach directly
each person based on theircommunication styles and
(16:24):
preferences.
So if you think about analgorithm, right, or training a
piece of software to me, right,let's say you are my manager,
right, and you have a veryspecific communication style and
it is opposite of mine.
Yes, we are much more likely tobutt heads because we
communicate differently.
(16:45):
There are also cultural things,right, we're from different
areas of the country.
We, you know you're a man, I'ma woman, right, like those
things can be.
Just, we're different people.
Pete Newsome (16:57):
All the above, yeah.
Kate O'Neill (16:58):
Yeah, all the above.
And so we say, OK, teaming isgoing to learn about both these
people, about how they'recommunicating in the meetings.
So it's not just taking notes,it's learning how we communicate
and then offers very tailoredcoaching about what topics were
communicated really well, basedon our communication styles and
(17:20):
what could be improved.
So I like to use this as anexample.
Let's say you're a, you're ahigh like, let's keep this high
level, and I'm a details person.
I got to know the deal.
Let's start with the detailsand then let's work our way to
the big picture.
That is like two really hardways to come into a conversation
, but it happens all the time.
I will get coaching on thetimes, these very specific
(17:41):
topics.
You know Project Twitter orProject Glass, whatever, where I
kept it high level and youappreciated that because it's
what you were looking for in thestatus update from me.
And then, conversely, I'll gethey, you know, in this instance,
when you talked about, you know, project matches, you know you
(18:02):
really dove into the details andyou didn't need to Because
wasn't what Pete was looking for.
Pete Newsome (18:06):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (18:07):
And then vice versa, right when I might need
help with something, or I don'tknow something that I maybe
should know, or it's a differentexpectation of me that's new
and I don't know what to do.
You'll get coaching, veryspecific to me, that says, hey,
when Kate was doing this newthing, you let her dive into the
details and ask you lots ofdifferent detailed questions,
(18:30):
and that was great for herbecause she learned how to do
the thing that she's gonna beable to not dive into the
details with you againafterwards.
Pete Newsome (18:39):
Okay, okay.
Kate O'Neill (18:40):
Very specifically honed in on first management,
like first principles.
As managers right, yourresponsibility, my
responsibility.
You know how we do career stuff, goal setting, all that and
then we layer on top of that how, exactly how you're
communicating.
Let's learn exactly how to makeyour communication better, more
(19:02):
effective over time.
Pete Newsome (19:03):
I mean this sounds too good to be true.
Okay, because and I can say itreally resonates with me because
of what I admitted to youalready is that this is not my
strength, and I'll tell you astory in a minute of how not my
strength it really is.
But what are you assessing andinterpreting and reading to be
able to offer that feedback?
How does I mean?
(19:24):
Just not, don't get tootechnical with it because it'll
go over my head, but how doesthat work?
Kate O'Neill (19:30):
Have you ever taken a disc assessment or
Myers-Briggs?
Pete Newsome (19:33):
Yes.
Kate O'Neill (19:34):
So we start with the disc.
Okay, You're kind of forteaming you take a disc
assessment.
Okay, use that as your call it,your natural style and your
general style.
And then we know, because we'rein the meetings with you, we
know when you're presenting thatstyle and when you're not.
Pete Newsome (19:50):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (19:51):
Like when you're getting fired, for instance you.
That's an adrenaline, it's areally uncomfortable situation,
right?
It's different than yournatural style, right?
So we know the contact sorry,the content ends the context of
a meeting and you know basicallywhat is the standard deviation
of your communication, off ofyour, like, natural, general,
(20:15):
any given day type ofcommunication.
Pete Newsome (20:18):
Okay, that makes sense yeah.
Kate O'Neill (20:20):
Yeah, and then same for me, right, and we kind
of see where the building blocksfit and where they don't fit,
but that's.
Pete Newsome (20:26):
Yeah, that makes.
So.
When you say we, we're talkingAI, right, teaming is an AI, I
know it's not you, you knowlooking over our shoulder.
But what about a scenario wherewhich I think this is this
applies to my internal team, Ithink most teams where now we
used to give disc assessments,people and we tried to hire
(20:46):
based on those, but we kind ofthrew it out the window because
we realized, just because youfall into one category, it
doesn't mean you can't be good.
There's, you know, there's,people can have different
strengths and weaknesses and ifthey apply them the right way,
they can be equally effective.
Right?
So we, we, we don't do itanymore, but we did it.
So I lived that for a while.
But having lived that, I cantell you that some people on our
(21:08):
team have very different styles.
So what, while mine may apply acertain way, how it's going to
be interpreted is going todiffer, if in a group
conversation.
So how do you reconcile that?
Kate O'Neill (21:19):
That's exactly that's so interesting.
You said that.
So that's that's where the realpower of AI comes in, because
our brains can't grok that right.
Like I can't understand whenyou know when you are presenting
this way or when you're notright, machines can do that for
us.
And and I should blanket thisall with sort of a warning which
(21:39):
is this is new, right, we don'tknow what the feedback we're
getting back from this is likewow.
Pete Newsome (21:48):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (21:48):
So me, right.
And that's when you think aboutthe history of things like disk
, myers-briggs, strengths,finder, enneagram, all that
stuff.
They're just frameworks thatour human minds came up with.
They're not based on science,right, right?
And so the the you know the howgood is this thing?
(22:10):
Right, this framework isbasically what we make of it.
Disk has been around for ahundred years because people
think that I did identify.
That is me.
Pete Newsome (22:21):
Right.
Kate O'Neill (22:21):
You know, and we continue to share our, share it
with each other and ask eachother to take and to be known by
other people right To havebetter communication, to do
these things, but it's it's, youknow, it's the, it's still the
stone tablet version, reallyright?
All of those assessments arethat.
Pete Newsome (22:41):
Sure.
Kate O'Neill (22:41):
Now, with AI, right, we can actually attribute
the.
The disk attributes to theactual communication, to the
context, right?
Am I being fired right now?
Am I being promoted right now?
Am I, am I talking to a peer ora boss?
Am I talking to a direct report?
Right, like?
What are the power dynamics?
All that stuff can be fed intoa machine to understand and to
(23:07):
package it together, to knowwhether or not the disk or the
Myers-Briggs or whatever isactually true of us and in what
situations are they true, withwhich people.
And so so we will layer overand in the app you can see, it's
very basic.
Right now, it's just the diskwhere we'll show you who you are
(23:27):
as individuals and then we'llshow you what are your combined
strengths.
So so, kate and Pete together,what are the things they're
really good at together and whatare the things that they need
work on?
Pete Newsome (23:39):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (23:39):
And what's really interesting to me is we
gravitate towards people who arelike us, who communicate like
us.
Pete Newsome (23:47):
Sure makes sense.
Kate O'Neill (23:48):
Because it's easier, right, it's easier to
communicate the way someone youknow to.
When you have a common way ofcommunicating, it just feels
easier to us.
But what's interesting is thattwo similar people have the
biggest blind spots in the waythat they communicate, the way
they behave, the way theyinnovate, the way they have
creative ideas, right?
(24:10):
So you, yes, it's easier, butin the same time, you're more
limited with what you're gonnabe able to do together.
Often, Sure.
We'll see.
Well, you know, like the AI,you know, in five years we'll be
having this conversation.
We will know, you know what.
The truth of these things butit's what we early see, right Is
that two similar people willgravitate towards each other at
(24:31):
first, but have struggles tobreak out of or to do different
things or to communicate indifferent ways that are
necessary, sometimes with thecontext.
Now, the reverse is true fortwo very opposite people, right,
who have opposite communicationstyles.
It's gonna be harder at first,but when they're able to learn
and to grow together, it can bereally fruitful.
(24:54):
They can do different things,explore different areas, have
more creative ideas together,appreciate each other's
strengths and blind spotsbecause it's usually, you know,
compensating for the other,right.
Like we appreciate each other,it's easier to appreciate the
differences.
So I don't know if that answersyou?
Pete Newsome (25:10):
No, it does.
Well, and it makes sense,complete sense.
If two people are, you know,have the exact same perspective
on everything, that doesn'taccount for how they're
communicating externally toanyone else, so they may get
along, you know, fabulously, butas they're trying to share
their message to anyone elsethat doesn't fall in line with
their perspective, it's gonna be.
They're gonna miss out on a lotof opportunities.
Kate O'Neill (25:32):
Yeah, absolutely, and what I think, where machines
also come in, which we're justabout to release this tomorrow.
I cannot wait to see what'sgoing on All right, hot off the
press.
Yeah, so we are.
We now will analyze all like,let's say, this is a one-on-one
you're my manager weekly orbi-weekly one-on-one with you to
go through.
You know how are we progressingtowards our goals?
(25:53):
Am I performing?
You know?
What do you need to know for meabout the work, those kinds of
things that we talk about inone-on-ones.
We will now analyze the series,the one-on-one series, and say
hey to you.
We'll say hey, you know, here'sa list of suggested topics for
your next one-on-one and theyare based on topics that never
(26:16):
came to resolution in yourrecent one-on-ones.
Right, we will show you whythat is important, based on my
communication style.
Let's say I brought up the factthat I don't have various
detailed career goals once threemonths ago.
That could mean a lot to me,but I didn't bring it up.
I only brought it up once andit didn't come to resolution and
(26:39):
it's not my style to bring itup again right, okay.
Teaming will now tell you hey,this is important, or it's
likely important, to Kate.
Maybe you should bring it upagain.
And then we'll also remind youof the context from your last
conversation.
Where did you leave theconversation, so you can pick up
with it where you left offright, I mean this sounds
(27:01):
amazing really.
Pete Newsome (27:02):
I didn't know much about teaming before this
conversation right now, and I'mthinking of so many applications
for it in my own situation andwhat has limited me as a manager
, and one employee in particularcomes to mind where, great
employee, there's so much goodbut there's just a conflict,
always under the surface, thatseems when we communicate with
(27:24):
each other.
Right, where I say something,it sounds one way coming from me
, but I know it's interpreted adifferent way consistently and
it's frustrating, and I knowit's frustrating for this
individual as well.
Right, because I think I don'tthink I should have that
reaction Like I didn't.
I thought this was going to besomething you'd like to hear and
(27:46):
clearly body language, tone,you can read how well the
message is delivered, but itdoesn't necessarily mean you can
do something about it, and Ithink that's been such a
limitation for me and so manyothers.
I don't think my plight in thisis that much of an anomaly where
I mean well, but the deliveryis.
(28:06):
Now, if someone is aligned withme, the delivery is great.
Here it is few words, boom,we're off and running.
But that's limiting.
You can't scale that way as abusiness.
I can Guarantee that is limitedour growth over the years?
Kate O'Neill (28:22):
Look, yeah, I mean we started out this.
How do you solve this problem?
Sometimes it can't be solvedright, sometimes it's just where
we are in life or what we havegoing on, or whatever the case
may be right.
And sometimes it is that with ahard employee, you can lead
someone to water but you can'tmake them drink, kind of things.
But we can make sure that we'redoing and we can now understand
(28:45):
at a deeper level those peopleand understand that we are doing
everything we can to make thatperson a success and that's how
I rest at night.
I don't know about you, butlike hey, I've done everything I
can do.
This person can either come toit and want to work here, see
the career progression theycould have, see the potential
(29:08):
money they could make, whatevertheir motivations are, which
teaming will help you to knowright, sometimes it's just not
going to work out, but I thinkwe can make a way better impact
on employee turnover and we are.
We're seeing it.
Pete Newsome (29:23):
That's so fascinating.
Kate O'Neill (29:25):
One-on-one great connection.
Pete Newsome (29:27):
I can point to the time where the world shifted,
the societal shift kicked ingenerational shift is probably
the better way to put it wherewhat had allowed us to grow up
until that point, what I wastaught, what I believed to be
all that was necessary as far asopportunity that was presented
to employees.
An employee resigned because hewanted to pursue his passion,
(29:51):
and the passion was going to paysignificantly less, and it was
a road that had nothing to dowith the one we were on, and I
looked at him like he was crazyfor resigning, for walking away
from a significant income to onethat wasn't nearly as good and
not going to lead to the samekind of path, and that was 2014.
(30:13):
And not long after that.
I didn't know what I was seeingat the time but, looking back,
that was the beginning of a bigshift in generational
perspectives and what wasimportant and what I was kind of
alluded to earlier, what Ithought I needed to provide as
an employer, what I wanted as anemployee, was no longer enough,
and it now employs expects somuch more than I did coming out
(30:39):
of school, and once that isingrained, it doesn't really
change.
I don't think so.
Now we have a generation whograduated or is coming into
their professional life at atime where they could work from
wherever you want.
I mean, while I'm a fan of that, well, it's hard to go
backwards, that genie's hard toput back in the bottle.
And so many young professionalsnow came out of school at a
(31:02):
time where it was so much, itwas an employee's market to a
degree that I haven't seen inthe 30 years since I graduated
from college.
Well, boy, talk about settingyour perspective in a dangerous
way, because now that pendulumhas swung back a little bit,
it's not so much an employee'smarket anymore, and so it's
struggle.
So there's all these thingsthat my age is hard to contend
(31:25):
with and see their perspective,but it's absolutely necessary.
So, as you're talking, I'mthinking this is, boy, what a I
mean what a solution for themodern time that we're in.
Kate O'Neill (31:37):
Well, look what you're.
The perspective you have rightof the last 30 years is an
important one, but even take itout further, right.
This is the first time in humanhistory where teams have been
as diverse as they are.
It's the first time in humanhistory where remote work is a
possibility.
(31:58):
Right, it's the first time atall.
Yes, it's the first time inhuman history where we have four
generations in the workplace.
Right, it was like one or twoat best.
Pete Newsome (32:10):
Right.
Kate O'Neill (32:11):
Now it's three or four and that's sort of like age
diversity, right.
But it makes making thosecommon human connections, where
we see people who are similar tous, where we do communicate,
really easily, right, which isan important part of our working
world and our community and allthat as is, you know,
(32:32):
connecting with others.
But you see less of that, andso the the, the responsibility
of making sure that the teamcreates the connections
necessary for healthy, highperformance, is harder.
It's just harder than it's everbeen.
Pete Newsome (32:49):
Oh, by the way, at a time where we don't interact
with each other outside ofbusiness, we don't see each
other in the hall, walk, in theparking lot at lunch.
You know all those things.
This is it.
This is all you get and thelimited feedback that you know
that comes with it.
That's something that I, youknow.
I'm trying to watch 15 peopleat once on zoom to see how a
statement you know is isreceived right, which is nearly
(33:11):
impossible.
Kate O'Neill (33:13):
The other thing that is become less structured
as well.
So we we talked about agile.
You probably are familiar withthis agile transformation, right
?
Pete Newsome (33:20):
Of course.
Kate O'Neill (33:22):
You know, 30 years ago.
I felt this way 10 years ago,where I worked in the marketing
department.
I talked to other marketers allday and I did marketing work
and and.
Fast forward just 10 years andit's like I spend most of my
time with sales people, customersuccess people, it tech
developer people to delivermarketing projects.
Right, because that's the worldwe live in now.
(33:46):
And so we're not even speakingthe same common functional
language with most of the peoplewe work with.
And then, finally, the way thatwe've progressed in our career
changes too.
So we used to have a very like,we used to have very
hierarchical organizations whereyou, you know, you got past, I
got promoted, I went up this way.
(34:06):
Now it's very and it'scontinuing this trend to be way
more horizontal, where ourability to influence people and
to, to you know, sell our ideaor help to inspire people to
work on the project that we'redoing, those skills become, so
like, more important than everbecause there's not a clear path
(34:26):
.
The path is, you know, pivotson the mountain rather than a
straight line yes, yes,absolutely.
So a young?
I feel so bad for a youngperson because there's no
playbook anymore.
Pete Newsome (34:40):
Well it?
Well, because that's how Zendigcame to be and we talked a
little bit about that.
Now we're talking about youknow, we're here through through
, you know, in this podcastbecause of a four corner
resources, the staffing companythat I'm president of.
But we launched Zendig and thereason why it's a Z in the
because it's a winding path.
(35:00):
So our original logo, which wecouldn't really make work to
come to agreement on you're amarketing person, you know how
this goes, but but we loved thepremise of a winding path
because that is so true.
What people go to school for andI won't go down this road right
now whether they should go toschool, whether they need to,
and there is no great source forfinding those answers.
(35:23):
And then when you're out in thereal world, it's even worse,
because now you're there aloneand you have bills to pay and
responsibilities and you have tofigure all this out and it's a
mess, right.
And so if you don't feel, Imean as you're talking, I get it
.
I mean I hate that so manypeople who've worked for us over
the years have not felt thatthey could just be open with us
(35:47):
and communicate with us andconnect.
It's probably been the hardestthing for me to overcome and
even though it's been 18 yearssince I started my own business
was feeling like the emperorwith no clothes, like because
I'm the last to know ifsomeone's upset or bothered by
something.
And we've made policy changesand procedures.
I mean you have to put thestuff in place as you grow as an
organization.
(36:07):
Even though I didn't want to atfirst, I wanted to be free and
not let policy and procedureever slow us down.
I still think we do that, butwe have to have some structure.
And to find out that peoplewere so upset by these changes
but just there was no mechanismby which they could communicate.
And it sounds like you'rehelping solve a lot of these
(36:27):
problems, which I think is sonecessary and important.
Kate O'Neill (36:33):
It's just hard to navigate work these days.
Right, we'll use the power ofAI to help with human connection
.
Right, automate the things wecan automate so that we can
focus on communicating well,connecting well and using a
machine to help me betterunderstand people.
It just makes sense, right?
What I love so much about whenI see new users of Teaming is
(36:57):
that everything's private, right, so you'll see the feedback
about your own communicationwith me just to you, right?
No one else can see that.
But what happens, which I love,is that they'll share it with
each other and say was thisright?
Like, is this how you felt?
Right, and that's the ahamoment.
(37:18):
Right, that's when two peopleare taking the conversation
offline, outside of the machine,to really use it as a
connection point.
Right, to better understandeach other.
And that's what we're lookingfor at work, you know, or that's
what we need.
Right, there is actual scienceon what is always true of a
(37:39):
healthy, high performing team,no matter what team type it is,
no matter how long you've beenworking together, whether you're
co-located or remote, right,none of that matters.
There's actual attributes ofthe way the group operates that
are necessary to be healthy andhigh performing, and that's what
we want to help teams be ableto focus on.
It's the hard stuff, it's trust, it's accountability, it's, you
(38:03):
know, commitment.
It's focus right, shared focus.
Those things are so hard tobuild, so let's one automate
what we can so we can stayengaged in the human connection
of things and then use machinesto help us understand where
we're connecting and where we'renot, to be better right.
Pete Newsome (38:23):
Oh man, so true, so necessary.
All right, I'm convinced anyonewho's listening now will would
be.
You could not be from thisconversation.
So where do we go?
So someone's, if we'reinterested in teaming, want to
learn more, want to use, youknow, get started, walk, walk me
through that.
Kate O'Neill (38:41):
Yeah, good question.
So one, I'm always available.
I try.
We're a small team and this isstill new.
By the way, we're a prettyyoung company.
There's still a lot of work weneed to do.
So I say that all with thecaveat of we'll work with us on
it.
On it, it might not be the theI shouldn't say that people have
really great experience upfront, but I try to really talk
to everyone.
(39:01):
So if you're interested inbeing a customer, send me a DM
on on LinkedIn.
I'm always ready to either hopon a zoom, walk you through it
in a shared video.
However you prefer tocommunicate, I'll do.
But you can sign up on your ownif you want to.
At teamingcom you can sign upfree.
There's a 14 day free trial Ifyou need an extension on that, I
(39:22):
know someone need more timewith it, but but yeah, you can
kind of choose your ownadventure.
When you sign up and you get totake your disc assessment, you
invite teaming into yourmeetings.
It works in person too, so itworks.
If you're going into a meetingroom and you've got like the
room reserved, we'll hook intothe mic to in the room to
(39:42):
actually do it in person Ifthat's your, your style or
that's how you're you're set up.
So, yeah, that that's how it,that that's where it is and the
agenda things coming outtomorrow, so that'll be part of
your free trial.
Pete Newsome (39:54):
Awesome.
Kate O'Neill (39:55):
It takes some time right.
We learn over time, so thelonger you use it, the more
smart it gets.
Pete Newsome (40:02):
That's, that's AI, right.
It is someone who's used italmost daily for the for a
little over a year now.
The learning, the, the, theback and forth, the interaction
is is is fascinating to watchand we're just we're just at the
or just scratching the surfaceof where it's going.
Kate O'Neill (40:20):
For you, and maybe this is the age old question I
don't said no one ever.
Pete Newsome (40:24):
Okay, great, I can't wait to hear what's next.
Kate O'Neill (40:27):
Because hiring gets all the glory and the money
and the.
You know the excitement.
Right Is, is that right when?
How do we find new people?
How do we find the right people?
Right, it's, it's the, it's thelike new toy always in in this
industry.
Right Versus hey, how do wemake it work with the people
we've got?
Pete Newsome (40:47):
Yeah, well, get well, okay.
So let me I can address that.
We are not in the retentionbusiness, but you'd be surprised
at how many companies blame uswith.
You know, as an industry, right, In a profession, when the,
when the employee doesn't workout despite that.
And so you mentioned somethinga few minutes ago.
You said that it's thingsaren't perfect yet.
(41:08):
Well, things are never going tobe perfect.
One of the things that I've saidover the years to prospective
clients is don't think thatworking with us will eliminate
problems.
I guarantee you will haveproblems if we work together
enough, because people are ourproduct, is people right, and so
our product walks and talks andthanks and gets drunk on Sunday
night and doesn't show up onMonday.
(41:29):
So we have that element.
Right, your software is notgoing out partying tonight,
right, it's going to be there inthe morning.
Well, ours has a spouse that isbad influence and has car
problems, and you know you nameit right.
So there's that.
But also, we're the outsiders,we're the, so we, our
(41:50):
relationships are best.
So, having been in thisindustry a long time, I've the
hiring happens a whole lot ofdifferent ways, but what works
well for us is where we'reconsidered an extension of the
organization we work with.
They really consider us apartner, and I don't mean that
in the cliche way, becauseeveryone says that, but where
they see value in what we do.
And you know that from fromyour career to where, if you're
(42:15):
just a vendor, that the secondyou make a mistake or do
something wrong or you're notvalued, then there's no
relationship at all and it'sreally not healthy.
And so staffing could be great,but it could also be fraught
with challenges.
I'll just say so don't beenvious.
I was going to say I haven't.
Kate O'Neill (42:35):
It's a really interesting perspective because
I haven't thought about thatLike I.
You know, you see all theamazing things that the tech and
the, you know, all theresources that go into staffing
and and I don't think about thereverse of you get blamed too.
Pete Newsome (42:49):
And I'll tell you the interesting.
So when I started this is howold I am in 1993, we didn't have
monster career builder.
The internet wasn't, wasn't?
I mean, the internet existedthanks to Al Gore, but it but it
wasn't a thing that you had onyour desktop and certainly not
in the form it is today.
So when I would post job ads, Iwould do it in newspaper, trade
(43:11):
magazines, resumes would bemailed and faxed to me, and I
didn't know where the nextcandidate resume was going to
come from, right when, if I goon LinkedIn today, there's
thousands and thousands, and sothere's always another one to
come, and so I didn't have toplace as much value on that
individual interaction andconversation.
So when I had a resume if I hadyour resume, Kate, it was like
(43:33):
gold, because I may not haveanother one to, I may not have
another person to call, so Iwouldn't have to invest fully in
that conversation.
It made me really good.
I had to be good Now, and sotechnology.
This is a good example of wheretechnology has made us not as
good as we used to be, and soyou know, I sound like the old
guy saying that, and my teamprobably rolls their eyes when
(43:55):
they hear it.
But I'll back that up all daylong.
Because you didn't have anyother choice, you couldn't rely
on technology, and so it's acrutch and it's a good one.
I wouldn't trade it.
I don't want to go backwards,it's just made us more efficient
.
But anyone who's on LinkedIntoday sees the complaints that
happen.
Candidates, you know,frustrated they can't get an
interview.
Recruiters won't call them backand it is impractical.
(44:17):
If you're a recruiter, if youhave a thousand applicants for a
job you're never going to see.
You know, number 101 to number1000, you're just never going to
.
So it's a.
It's a weird system right nowthat we've created for
recruiting.
Kate O'Neill (44:32):
That's a great perspective.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I I've never thought of it thatway and now that you say that,
like, I think there's oneexecutive recruiter that I've
really enjoyed and actuallytrusted right to place me
somewhere, whereas everythingelse has just been through my
network, because it's who youtrust right and there has to be
(44:52):
a level of trust there on bothsides.
For a recruiter, the company'sgot to trust you to find the
right person and the rightperson has to trust you to place
them in the right environment.
It's it's really hard work andI absolutely see how technology
can be a correction, correction.
That world.
Pete Newsome (45:08):
It has.
It has become that, you know,with the need for efficiency and
speed, where I would argue it's, it's in, there's, there's
third parties now that exist toset.
They exist in between thehiring manager and the staffing
companies, and that sounds greaton paper If you're the company
saying, hey, you look, howefficient this is and, by the
way, we charge the staffingcompany for that service and
(45:31):
your managers don't have to getinvolved, and I would reject
that entirely.
If I'm hiring for you, I haveto hear from you, I have to know
who you want, not just what youneed.
And if I'm doing my job well,I'm going to deliver one resume
to you and that's the personyou're going to hire.
And so I will never recruitbased on volume, even though
(45:52):
that's become attractive.
So I could go on for days aboutthat.
You're getting more than youasked for with that question.
Kate O'Neill (45:58):
No, I'm glad, I'm glad he mindset to, and maybe
this is wrong to think this way.
But hire slow, fire fast.
Hiring slow right is reallyjust like finding the right
person is so important.
Pete Newsome (46:15):
But that can go too far too.
I saw the best post on LinkedInan hour before we got on today.
I'm going to try to get exactlyit said.
If Alabama can replace the bestcoach in the history of college
coaching in a day, how come ittakes you so long to fill your
accounting opening?
It was so perfect.
(46:35):
I'm like man.
I wish I had written thatbecause you know, because to
your point, like I get it.
You're like I want to find theperfect person, and I would
argue there's no perfect right,there is no perfect person.
So find the person that feelsgood.
And I've been on that,receiving a niche position.
This is years ago and there wasone person in the state of
Florida qualified for the role Imean, and we delivered this
(46:58):
person just by sheer luck is incoincidence as much as anything
else.
Finding them so quickly.
But within a couple of days ofbeing asked to fill this role,
and the C level person who wewere recruiting for was so
freaked out by that.
She's like I can't hire thisperson right away and I'm like
why she goes?
Because it's too fast.
I'm like but it's, but theperson's perfect.
(47:19):
And she's like I know but and soshe couldn't come out with any
words or phrases to justify it,but it was that uncertain
feeling and fortunately I took amonth to get her, to convince
her that there was no othercandidate.
Because she said, well, send memore.
I'm like there is no more andI'm not doing my job If I'm
going to send you someone not asgood as the one I've already
(47:39):
sent.
Right, that doesn't reflectwell on me.
So it's, as you get into the onthe recruiter side of the table
, you see a little bit of adifferent perspective.
I think, yeah, that'sinteresting.
Kate O'Neill (47:49):
I want to come to that.
To me that's the perfectexample of they.
They retained their old coachfor a very long time and they
did succession planning, I'msure right with him as things.
You know.
They did the things with thepeople that they had really well
so that they could recruitreally fast, you know.
Pete Newsome (48:12):
I don't know.
But this new guy, I mean, doyou know much?
I don't know if you're acollege football fan, but they
hired the guy who was sort ofthe hot, you know, you know, new
coach.
He was the coach of Washingtonand they, they, they just were
in the championship game and sohe just bailed on Washington to
go over there and it justhappened so fast.
And you're thinking replacingNick Saban.
You know the arguably you know,the winning best coach of all
(48:34):
time.
I don't know the stats or he'snot the only good coach, but
it's, I'm like man.
That was, that was.
How can you replace this legendthat quickly?
And they did it.
So it was such a good post on.
Like that, I'm like man.
I wish that was mine.
Well, kate, this has been.
You've been so generous withyour time.
I'm going to put you on the spotwith one more question,
actually two.
Let me ask you this.
(48:55):
One first Team size.
We didn't, we didn't cover that.
Is there a team that's toosmall or too big?
No, okay.
So teams of any size.
You want them, you can helpthem, love it.
So here's my put you on thespot question.
I would love to have you back onand talk about your path as a
co-founder with three otherco-founders, I think and now
(49:19):
you're the CEO.
But that is a journey that Ithink a lot of people would be
interested in, because that's ahard thing to navigate.
That's a lot of, that's a lotof chiefs, and not everyone does
that effectively.
So I'd love to have thatconversation too, because, as
I'm sure you know, havingstarted your own business, now
people like say the same thingto you that they have to me for
years I want to do that, I wantto go on my own, I want to and
(49:40):
there's pros and cons of that,there's pitfalls.
It's not as.
It's not as rosy as some peoplethink.
So can you come back on at somepoint and have that
conversation?
Kate O'Neill (49:50):
I would absolutely love to.
I'll say say briefly well, myco, one of my co-founders, is my
old boss and now technically hereports to me.
Pete Newsome (50:00):
Nice, very nice.
Kate O'Neill (50:01):
Yeah, it is interesting.
Yeah, I would love to to talkabout it.
I never expected to do this, soso, yeah, I would love to to to
chat about the path and and howit came to be.
And then, lastly, on team size,something that we talk about a
lot in teaming, which is we'vearchitected teaming in such a
way where the team is private.
(50:22):
So, like, the most importantthing between relationships and
the group dynamic is trust.
Right, do I trust this personand do I trust this group?
And so there is no, there's nocompany view in teaming.
There's no HR, no admin, no ITthat can go in and see your
stuff, and that's been a that isa massive change that's going
(50:45):
to need to happen in enterprisesoftware.
Right, do we expect that youknow our?
Well?
I don't know if.
Can our whole family see ourInstagram?
Or our whole whole family seeour Facebook?
Right now?
Like, it's just, it's your,it's your profile?
Yes, it's your team, and so weteam side, you can have a team
of any size, but it's private tojust the people on the team,
(51:07):
like, people outside the teamcan't even see that the team
exists when they sign up forteaming Nice, and so that's
something that is foundational,right.
So it does change his group,like, if it's a team of two like
you, you know, you, me and youit's it is going to be different
because there isn't groupdynamics at play.
If there were 10 or 12 of us,that's different, right.
(51:29):
If there's 50 of us, that's,that's different.
150.
Have you heard of Dunbar'snumber?
It's, it's like from the daysof hunting and gathering, where
we can't know more than 150people.
Okay, okay.
So when a company gets like at148, everyone can know each
(51:50):
other at 151.
Impossible, interesting.
Pete Newsome (51:54):
Okay.
Kate O'Neill (51:55):
You know, truly like it's that stark of a change
and so so like that's adifferent.
You know you can have a team of150 people we have them but the
expectations and the dynamicsare so different.
You know, that's sort of like atechnical answer but also a
philosophical answer that we tryto help people to understand as
(52:15):
they onboard in teaming thatespecially when your team grows,
the dynamic is going to change.
There will be new challengesand same with contracting right
there there are layoffs orwhatever.
The dynamic is going to change.
There's going to be hard thingsto work through, but you do it
together and that's the goodthing and you'll have a private
space to actually do that.
Pete Newsome (52:37):
That's so important because employees need
that outlet.
They want that outlet.
They go public when they don'thave a private space to do it
and no one no one wins with thatright Because it just it
creates.
It's a bad scenario thatcurrently exists and you're
solving that.
That's huge.
That's awesome.
I love it.
I think you are so, kate, thankyou You're.
(52:59):
We're going to put all yourcontact information in the show
notes.
You're easy to find on LinkedInteamingcom.
Couldn't be easier.
I love the domain.
You'll have to tell me laterhow you got that one.
I will say also we are.
Kate O'Neill (53:11):
We are in the process of rebranding, so
teamingcom will always go to ournew domain, and we don't have
that yet, but it will bedifferent at some point.
Okay, all right, we'll get thatout there, just in case someone
goes to teamingcom in thefuture and it's different, it's
still us, but different.
Pete Newsome (53:27):
All right, we'll be on standby to see it.
We look forward to it and I'mexcited to see everything you're
going to do, and I'm now goingto be talking to my CFO about
how we we start to become acustomer too, because I think it
just makes sense.
So I'm convinced and, like Isaid earlier, everyone else has
to be too after listening tothis.
Okay, thank you.
Kate O'Neill (53:43):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me and Ican't wait to come back.
Pete Newsome (53:47):
You're, you're, you're committed, awesome, all
right, everyone, thanks forlistening.
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