May 16, 2024 • 50 mins
On this episode, special guest Diane Prince shares her secrets of entrepreneurial success in the staffing industry. From her start as a temp to selling her thriving business, Diane’s story is all about vision, grit, and chasing your dreams.
In our conversation with Diane, we explore her unique path as a solo founder, balancing independence with the power of partnerships. Learn how her creative approach to reference checks opened doors to unexpected opportunities, highlighting the underrated art of networking. We also tackle the challenge of growing sales teams, discussing how to shift from being a star salesperson to a great manager and the mysterious $20 million hurdle that many businesses face.
Finally, we dive into the crucial topics of hiring, training, and keeping top talent in recruitment. Diane believes that strong leadership is the key to excellence and avoiding mediocrity. Her hands-on involvement in the interview process shows the importance of finding the right fit for the role.
For those looking for inspiration and a successful sales mindset, this episode is packed with practical tips and valuable insights to boost your staffing strategies.
Additional Resources:
- Top KPIs for Recruiters You Need to Track This Year
- Effective Methods of Recruitment and Selection for Hiring Top Talent
- How to Build a Talent Pipeline
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out 4 Corner Resources at https://www.4cornerresources.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
👋 FOLLOW DIANE PRINCE ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeprincejohnston/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:02):
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast,
your source for all thingshiring, staffing and recruiting.
I'm Pete Newsome and my guesttoday is Diane.
Prince Diane, how are you today?
Diane Prince (00:11):
Hey, pete, I'm great Glad to be here.
This is my highlight of the day, so I was excited about it.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
I'll take it.
Diane Prince (00:17):
I'll take what I can get.
Pete Newsome (00:18):
Highlight of the day is good enough, diane, you
are a coach today.
You have a long history instaffing We'll talk about that
but you spend your time todaycoaching owners of recruiting
and staffing companies, helpingrecruiting firms get into
staffing, if they're not already.
Tell us a little bit, just tokick things off, about how you
spend your days today.
Diane Prince (00:39):
Yeah, so thanks for the question.
So I have some clients who Icall my executive coaching level
clients, and that's verycustomized, different things
that founders go through.
Sometimes it's issues withtheir business partners or
co-founders growing, managingtheir executive teams, things
like that.
So that's part of my day, andthen I also have a group program
(01:02):
where I basically want to helpagency owners and anyone who
wants to start an agency.
I guess I have a lot of variedexperience, so I want to help
them with all aspects of it, andone thing in particular that
I'm really passionate about isbuilding an asset in your
business.
So, as you mentioned, one ofthe things I work on is helping
(01:23):
people to understand how to addtemp staffing as an offering so
that they have recurring revenue.
Pete Newsome (01:28):
So the highlight of this conversation is, in many
respects, is that you havegrown and sold staffing
companies that won for at least50 million dollars and that I'm
sorry.
You grew the company at 50million dollars, sold it for 28.
I know that's public sohopefully you don't mind me
sharing that.
Congratulations on that, thankyou.
That is commendable andsomething that many recruiting
(01:52):
and staffing companies owners,who I know, aspire to achieve.
So we'll see what kind ofsecrets we can get out of you
today on that if you're willingto share.
Diane Prince (02:01):
Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (02:03):
Well, let's go backwards and go forwards.
How did you get started instaffing?
Diane Prince (02:13):
How did you get into this crazy world in the
first place?
Yeah Well, I temped a lot.
I temped through college andgrad school.
My first experience was I usedto get.
When I was in college, I usedto get student work permits and
go work abroad.
And when I was 19, I waspouring beer at the glass blower
pub in Soho in London, which Iwasn't really a legal briefing
agent in the States.
I was obviously super cluelessand the one and only night that
(02:33):
I worked there I was asked howfast I type.
And then I got into.
Then that's how I started.
I got into staffing and on myfirst assignment I overheard the
office manager tell anotheremployee remind me to never to
hire a temp again.
So and then I just I tempedthrough college and grad school,
so I was familiar but reallygot started because I wanted to.
(02:57):
I started with the vision and Ithink it's really important for
anyone going intoentrepreneurship to know what
they want to get out of it.
And so it was really my thenhusband and I.
We were in our mid-20s.
We wanted to see if we couldstart a business that we could
build and exit and retire in our30s.
So it didn't start with hey, Ihave a recruiting experience,
(03:20):
let's start a temp agency.
It was this is our goal, andthen what are different
businesses that could get usthere?
That said that we could achievethat goal.
And then we back into it.
Pete Newsome (03:30):
You started with the end in mind?
Really yes, which is rare, Ithink from from the staffing
companies I owners that, who Iknow, had you worked as a
recruiter prior to that or ornot at all.
Diane Prince (03:42):
No, not at all.
I had, I would know.
I had a master's degree inFrench literature and I was
working at a computerdistributor as a system buyer.
I mean random and.
But we put together because.
So my dad has spent his entirecareer in title insurance and
then he got my husband a job ina title insurance company.
So that was our niche.
(04:02):
So we saw the need in thatniche for contract workers and
that's where we started.
Pete Newsome (04:09):
Okay, that's fascinating.
That's really unique and rare.
Good for you for seeing that.
But I have to ask whichdistributor did you work for?
I worked for Tech DataCorporation for a number of
years.
Diane Prince (04:18):
Okay, I was at, maricel.
Did you ever hear of?
Pete Newsome (04:20):
Maricel yeah, I remember Maricel.
Yeah, I think Tech Data andMaricel back in those days this
was in the 90s were kind of neckand neck and I was also a buyer
for a number of years 3Com andNortel Networks and products is
what I spent my days on back along time ago to be in that
world.
So okay, so you started thebusiness easier said than done.
High failure rate what allowedyou to succeed, do you think,
(04:50):
when so many others fail?
Diane Prince (04:51):
Gosh, just I mean.
Well, one thing I think notknowing anything was in some
ways helpful, and not having youknow it was a lot of common
sense.
Not that I had a lot of commonsense back then, no one who
starts a business.
Does I don't think Right, maybea little bit more now than in my
20s, hopefully, but I mean grit, honestly it was.
(05:12):
And also not gettingoverwhelmed, like one thing we
did was just one step, like onestep at a time, and just started
Like just did it.
You know there's so many peoplewho have.
I'm sure you know it's notabout the idea and having the
idea you have to have a goodidea but it's about the
(05:32):
execution.
And I mean people would say tous like people would come and
pick up their paychecks andthey'd be like, oh, great idea,
I had this idea three years agoand we're like, well,
(06:05):
no-transcript, effectively thatI didn't know what I was doing
either.
Pete Newsome (06:12):
But I had an idea.
I knew enough about theindustry and knew how to sell
and believed I can get clients.
But I didn't know if I couldrecruit.
It had been a long time and theworld had changed.
I was recruiting pre-Monster,pre-internet, when I first
started.
People would historically cometo me and say I want to be an
entrepreneur.
I'd say, great, what's youridea?
And they'd say I don't know.
I just know I don't want towork for someone else.
(06:34):
You actually did that becausemy advice over the years has
been people will come up with anidea first.
You have to know how you'regoing to make money and you have
to be good at something.
You you took a very differentapproach, which I find
fascinating.
Diane Prince (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, because I think you know people
who have ideas, cause I'm sureyou know, you hear it all the
time I have this, this businessidea, or we do this business
with me, and the thing is it'sit's really it's about because
entrepreneurship is such it's itchanges the the whole, your
whole life and the way that youlive.
So you have to want to havethat, you have to understand
(07:10):
Well, not that you canunderstand it until you're there
, but you really have to havethat drive, because otherwise
what I find is that you canstart a business and I have
clients who who come to me whohave successful businesses, but
they don't like them becausethey've built a business not
around how they want to live.
So that's why I think it is soimportant to have that drive and
(07:30):
know you want to be anentrepreneur, even more so than
the idea, because otherwise youcan be led by an idea and then
you're solving problems for theworld and other people, but
you're not solving your ownproblems.
Pete Newsome (07:42):
Well, I believe most entrepreneurs fall into the
category that I did, which issomeone who is a tactician, for
lack of a better way to put it.
There's a book called theE-Myth.
I don't know if you've everread that book.
Diane Prince (07:53):
And.
Pete Newsome (07:54):
I think that's a phrase that comes from that book
it's been years since I've readit where you're good at doing
something In my case it wasselling and so I believe there's
a better way to do it.
I wanted to do business in apersonal way.
I was tired of working forFortune 500 companies that were
constantly telling me what Icouldn't do and contracts that I
couldn't change.
I just wanted to operate withefficiency and fluidity, and the
(08:15):
only way I was going to do thatwas start my own business.
But I suspect that most peopledon't really know what they're
getting into when they start abusiness.
I certainly didn't.
I thought I'd have more freedom.
I think I have less.
Since I did work in for anothercompany.
What was different coming inthan what you expected?
Diane Prince (08:36):
You know, I'm not even sure how to answer that
question because I think I justlike we started working on it
pretty quickly after we had thatidea in mind.
So I don't even know if I hadexpectations.
You know, back then I tend tobe a pretty spontaneous person.
I've worked on that, like Ihave a lot of tools now that I
(08:57):
that I employ to not be.
You know, I have very highlevel of risk tolerance.
So I would say for me it wasn't.
I don't know if I really had,and I can't even remember if I
did, like had, specificexpectations, but I mean it was
like not nothing, like I, it'slike having a baby which you
know.
You just don't know if you'relike you can't you can't explain
(09:20):
to someone what it's going tobe like before you know.
You just have to experience it,no matter what, how many, what
words you try, and it's the samething with entrepreneurship you
just don't really know untilyou're doing it.
Pete Newsome (09:30):
So I'm curious.
I started on my own.
I was by myself, Didn't have apeer.
I missed that.
I didn't have a manager.
I missed that too, by nothaving anyone else to turn
around and ask a question of.
It was just yeah, the buckreally does stop a few, but you
had a partner.
Do you think that that allowedyou?
You think that was helpful atthe beginning?
I don't know any different.
(09:51):
You don't either, because youstarted with a partner.
But when you look at thebenefits and potential negatives
of that, what's your take onstarting with a partner?
Diane Prince (10:00):
Yeah, because and I did I was a solo founder with
my clothing business and it'sway different.
I mean, ok, so having goodpartners is amazing and what the
thing that makes?
From my experience in differentpartners, the thing that makes
a partnership successful is thateach person has a really their
(10:22):
own, their own personal missionand something that they know
that they want to get out of thebusiness and that sticks people
together, because, I mean,there were times when people
would have left, but having thatlike having everybody's
individual drive, and that againgoes back to the vision, not
just like, oh, that's a goodidea.
Let me do it with you, becausethen I did try to have a
co-founder with my clothingbusiness.
(10:42):
It was more like looking forsomething to do and it didn't
work.
I think that having goodpartnerships and co-founders is
fantastic, but having the wrongone is disastrous.
That's part of why I startedcoaching is because I saw what
it was like to be a solo founder, and so a lot of my clients are
(11:03):
solo founders, some I work withteams, executive teams but
having that person, having asounding board because that's
what I had when I had partnersand then when I was, when I was
a solo founder.
I realized I was driving myemployees crazy, because I'm
like bouncing ideas off of themand then all of a sudden they're
, they're, they're implementingthem, and I'm like, what do you
(11:23):
mean?
Like I was just talking, youknow so.
So yeah, it is, it is a bigdifference.
But you don't want to have, youdon't want to have the wrong
partner, because that can just.
That's terrible.
Pete Newsome (11:33):
I found it surprisingly lonely for years.
For years I thought that I andI craved to have a peer some, or
a manager even, which whichsounds crazy, in a way, for
people who haven't been in thatposition.
I've had this conversation withso many over the years.
They're like what do you mean?
You wish you had a manager, Iwish I had someone to be that
(11:54):
sounding board, as you mentioned.
And it's not the same withemployees, I found, because
everyone's motivations aregenuine, right, but they all
have a different perspective andangle that they come from,
whether it's conscious or not,where if you have a co-founder,
you're really in it with someoneelse who has the same end game
(12:14):
in mind in your case, that youdid.
And I find that justfascinating because so many
decisions I've made over theyears, I look back on and think
if I had someone else to tell me, no, that's a bad idea, I
probably would have ended up ina very different place a better
place.
Maybe not, but it's easy to lookat the bad decisions and think
(12:34):
I wish I had avoided those.
I've made a few good ones alongthe way too.
I think a partner ispotentially very valuable to a
founder.
So early success that's hard tocome by, did you?
Was there a point ever when youstarted where you said this
isn't going to work?
I mean, did you come out of thegate?
(12:54):
You know fast, how did?
How did the early years go?
Diane Prince (12:58):
Yeah, I mean we came out of the gate fast.
We had it was we.
We actually thought the clientthat we thought was going to be
our like, we're like if we justhave them.
It was Chicago title.
That's where my dad worked.
We met with HR, you know,before we were like, yes, but
they took a long time to evenuse us.
But then we got, I mean got ourfirst client really quickly.
(13:19):
It was so back then.
You know, you mentioned beforemonster but beginnings of emails
.
So I had an ad in the LA Timesand it was a three-line ad
because they were only $120.
And I put out an ad for a titleassistant and it was near my
work, and so I'd go on my lunchbreak and I got a resume, the
first resume I got.
(13:39):
I cried, I couldn't believesomeone sent me a resume.
I quit my job the next dayImpulsive was the word I was
looking for before and then Igot my first client.
Our first client it was a hugeclient was Fidelity National
Title.
I just started doing referencechecks, so I started asking
(14:01):
everybody for references andthen I just called and I didn't
have a job for her, but her namewas Karen Saul and I said I'm
calling to ask you somequestions about Karen Saul and
he's like I'm like, and we arecalled Title Temps at first I'm
like this is Diane from TitleTemps and he was like from what?
I'm like this is Diane fromTitle Temps and he was like from
what?
And then I'm like, oh, youdon't know about us.
Pete Newsome (14:22):
And then I mean we literally had no business at
the time.
Yeah, nobody knows about us.
Diane Prince (14:24):
And I'm like we sent someone over to come talk
to you.
And then I'm like you know,we're 26, 27.
My husband grabs his briefcaseand he goes down to Orange
County, which is like a two-hourdrive and and we got it.
You know, we got our firstclient.
Pete Newsome (14:37):
So reference checks have to ask you about
that.
I was taught the same way.
That was 101 when I startedwith Aerotech in 1993.
Checked references and we stillcheck references on everyone
today.
It's something that I believein strongly as a recruiter.
I think that's my job.
I'm surprised that it doesn'thappen very frequently today.
Have you seen that as well?
Diane Prince (14:58):
Yeah, I mean surprised in one way, and I mean
even like with my clients, likethat's one thing too.
Like I'm always asking forreferences for vendors and like
anybody.
I mean, you learn so much, so Ijust make it my policy Anyone
I'm going to work with, I needto ask for, I need to get
references.
That also gives me a bit ofcooling off period, you know,
(15:20):
and if I get excited abouthiring or working with someone,
but yeah, and then also, just asfar as for biz dev, I mean
connecting the dots.
It's like you know, that's gold.
Pete Newsome (15:31):
Yeah, and I tell my team today that if I started
from scratch and didn't have anynetwork at all, if you dropped
me in a strange city, I wouldstart just speaking with
candidates and asking them whothey worked for, who they
reported to, what was going onat their previous jobs, and
references would be the defaultway I would develop business.
It seems to be a bit of a lostart.
(15:53):
Why do you think that is?
Diane Prince (15:55):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think it's also what I'venoticed, not just the references
, but, peop, I think it'sbecause, well, there's so much
information out there today,right like when I started, we we
bought a book called rememberthose dummies books the black it
was it was how to start a tempagency for dummies that was yeah
(16:16):
yes, I wish I it.
I've been trying to Google it tofind it, but that was that was
literally how we started.
That was the information thatwas available, right, and we
like took someone to dinner whoworked at, like, apple one or
something like that, but otherthan that there's.
But now.
So when people, when peoplecome to me and are in my program
or they'll ask me, like, how doI do biz dev, and I think
(16:39):
people, for some reason, peopleinstinctually go to cold
outreach or they go to they feellike there's something that
other people are doing that theydon't know.
And most of the people you knowlook at their LinkedIn and I'm
like I guarantee you you haveenough warm leads to build a $50
(17:00):
million business.
You know I now I do coldoutreach.
I like cold outreach, I likehaving it going on in the
background.
Don't get me wrong.
Cold outreach is great, but forsome reason, people just kind
of I don't know what it is they,they, they, it's like it's like
they.
It's almost like they doubtthemselves or they doubt their
network, or they doubt the andand and.
But yeah, I don't know, becausethat's our business, is people
(17:23):
driven.
And we all, we all say we buildrelationships right, like who
doesn't say that?
And that's all it is.
And it's so easy.
If you, it's not easy, but ifyou pick up the phone and you
talk to candidates, you're goingto get.
You're going to get business.
Pete Newsome (17:40):
I think there's a because I've, I've this has been
a conversation I've had manytimes over the years internally,
and I think that there's a uh,a fear of of being rejected, a
fear of asking for business andnot feeling worthy of asking for
it if you're speaking withsomeone who's senior.
A lot of recruiters are youngand when I started I was 23, 22
even maybe and I remember one ofmy first candidates wanted to
(18:03):
come by the office and the guywas older than my dad and I was
terrified because I felt like afraud.
I thought who am I, this 22year old kid, talking to this
guy who's in his fifties, abouthis salary and very intimate
details?
And I had to get over that andto sell, which I've done
throughout my career.
You have to have a certainlevel of confidence and I find
(18:23):
that that's hard to come byright.
The talking to candidates isone thing.
Recruiters feel like they'redoing them, providing a service
for them.
But, that doesn't translate whenit comes to speaking with
prospective clients.
It almost feels like you're notqualified to ask for to do
business with them.
Where I find that sointeresting?
(18:44):
Because people of course weshould ask, we're in the
staffing business, they're inthe hiring business.
We should be asking them howthey hire.
Diane Prince (18:52):
Here's a, here's a , here's a tip that I cause I I
agree with you and some people.
Some people I think are naturalare more natural biz dev people
and some people some people Ithink are natural are more
natural biz dev people and somepeople are more natural
recruiters.
Like I'm not as detail oriented, I'm much more natural and biz
dev than I am at recruiting.
But I also, like, did animposter syndrome test and it
(19:12):
was like congratulations you'reone of the 5% that doesn't have
imposter syndrome.
Pete Newsome (19:17):
Okay, that's good, that's important.
Diane Prince (19:20):
But one thing that I tell people is just remember,
especially for entrepreneursand agency owners, you know to
hype yourself up before callsand just like, remember they're
just people in jobs.
Like these are people,especially entrepreneurs.
I'm like you're doing cool shit, like you're building a
business, You're doing this foryour family, like you have,
you're a, you're an entrepreneur, this person's they're not.
(19:42):
You know not to like downplaythem or anything, but like
they're just people in jobs andit's not so, so there's.
And also just like, putyourself in a place of like this
is what.
This is what they need me to beright now.
You know, they don't need melike this client, this person
I'm going to call.
They need me to be the personthat's going to tell them how
I'm going to solve their problemand fill their roles.
This is what they need from meright now.
(20:04):
They don't need like nobodyneeds me to be this.
Like you know, be anxious andyou know so it's kind of like
you're not saying that you won'thave that fear or those
feelings, but those are somethings that I find that help to
get past that.
Pete Newsome (20:17):
Well, and you have to walk through the fire to
some degree.
I was a terrible.
I was so awkward, I had an outof body experience.
Every time I would stand up infront of a room for years when I
was young, until I didn'tanymore.
And then one day it just clicksand you do realize you're
worthy, you do realize you'renot an imposter by doing it.
But I don't know, and I've neverfigured out, how to train
(20:40):
someone to be comfortable withthat unless they're willing to
put in the reps and to do it andto be awkward and to be
uncomfortable and to say stupidthings.
And then you realize well, I'mnot going to say that again,
there's a better way to say it Ifind that the most limiting
thing in the staffing industry.
So I want to talk about thatfor a minute.
(21:00):
As to why you think mostcompanies are stunted in their
growth, you figured out how tobreak past the ceiling that's
very common of being around 20million in revenue.
Your founder driven companies.
That just can't scale.
Why?
What do you think the limiteris?
I have my own thoughts on it,but we agreed to talk about this
on air.
Diane Prince (21:20):
So one thing that I think is the lack of client
diversity and having an anchorclient strategy, because a lot
of agencies will rely on acouple of big clients and it's
really important to have thatdiversification.
And then there's the mindsetpart as well, and thinking that
(21:44):
you, just you know, if we havethese ideas in our head, like
this is the size I'm going to be.
That's, you know, generally,the size that we become.
So it's knowing like.
I think that like peoplemessage me all the time and
they're like I had no idea Icould build an eight-figure
agency until I saw your post onLinkedIn.
(22:04):
And it's like people buildnine-figure agencies, like
people who started, you know,when I started.
There's people who are stilldoing it, who are billionaires.
You know they didn't sell outthat's what, that was their path
.
I think just knowing thatthat's even an option is that I
think those are two of thereasons I think that people?
Pete Newsome (22:24):
what do you think?
So we talked briefly about thee-myth book and I think a lot of
it comes down to that, wherethe person who starts a business
has a certain level ofconfidence and ability to
recruit to sell.
They may have a history in theindustry, enough clients where
they feel like they can hang ashingle and pay their bills.
But, tactician, they're the onewho's doing the job, they're in
(22:49):
the business, they're notrunning a business.
So in hindsight, if I went back18 years, I would do things
very differently than I have.
I would have pulled myself outof that role much sooner.
I would have.
I'm not a good manager.
I'm not an empathetic manager.
I'm not.
I'm an.
I'm made to be an individualcontributor.
That's why I was able to starta business and I was the only
(23:10):
salesperson until I think wewere probably about 10 million
in revenue.
I could sell.
It was natural for me.
It was what I was meant to do,but I wasn't meant to manage
necessarily and to be able totrain other people.
Selling to me is natural.
I can't tell you why.
I'm good at selling.
I just am good at selling andI've tried every possible way
(23:30):
over the years to build andtrain the sales force and we
have great salespeople but Ithink they're great
independently of what we'vetaught or tried to do, because
that's been our limiter.
And when I talk to peers aroundthe country through TechServe
Alliance I'm in a peer groupthere, other associations it is
a recurring theme where you canfigure out recruiting right.
(23:54):
I mean, some companies do itbetter than others.
But if there's some basicthings that if you, if you can
get down and have the rightsystem and you're efficient and
have the right employees andtake care of them, you can
recruit.
But to sell, to develop newbusiness, that seems to be the
limiter is what I've seen ofcompanies.
You hit a ceiling where I justI'm just using 20 million as a
(24:15):
round number that companiesreally just have trouble getting
past because they can't developa sales force.
Do you think that's?
Uh, is that a surprise for youto hear?
Do you agree with?
Diane Prince (24:24):
that well, I, I hear what you're saying.
I think I think there gets tobe a point where, once you get
to, you know now that you'resaying it and I have a client
around that same, that samerevenue, and like what I, what I
observed is that sometimes youalso get used to how you're
doing things.
So, like you've built a companya certain way, you might have
(24:48):
some key people on your team,what you definitely do at that
point, you have some executiveson your team and then at some
point sometimes the companystarts running you, you, and if
you're not continually drivingto move the needle, it's.
You know it's like it's like ina family, like family dynamics
(25:08):
are very difficult to change.
You know we all have what kindof our roles in our, in our
families sure, and it's reallyhard to be someone different and
break out of it.
And I think it's very similarwhen you build a business people
get, patterns happen, culturebuilds and sometimes it's it's
difficult to innovate.
So I think it's just alwayslike what's important is always,
(25:29):
and in seeking help and gettinglike you're, you're in a group
and I'm in that's, you know,hire me to kind of help them to
see things in a different way,and I think that's something
that also.
What do you think about that?
Pete Newsome (25:43):
I think you're right.
I think it's you don't knowwhat you don't know, and when
you don't have someone lookingover your shoulder, the emperor
not having any clothes, so tospeak right when I observed one
of my clients.
Over the years I saw them growfrom a relatively small
organization to a very large oneand we were I had a front row
view for that because I was ableto staff many of their people
(26:05):
and it was like my baby foryears.
And they grew to a point theystarted to have challenges
within the organization afterthey hit a couple thousand
people and the challenges thatdidn't exist when they had 100,
200 employees, because it was adifferent kind of organization.
And I would say out loud theCEO needs to remove themselves
(26:27):
from the equation because theperson that had the foresight to
start the business, who was atrailblazer, an innovator, I
mean, just took a lot ofexcellence in what they did.
It's a different skill set thanrunning a 2,000 person
organization.
Not that we've grown to thatpoint, far from it but the skill
set that allowed me to quit myjob.
My wife was pregnant with herthird child at the time, right,
so I was like I'm quitting andI'm going to do this because I'm
(26:50):
tired of talking about it.
There's a catalyst that causedme to do it.
Not everyone will do that, I'maware of that, you know that.
But I did and I survived and Ifigured it out and I had the
work ethic and I had the salesability to get business.
I figured out recruiting right.
Losing was not an option.
I had all of whatever that is.
Those are an entirely differentset of skills than what allows
(27:11):
someone to scale an organizationand to manage a team, and so I
think what I saw in others Icouldn't necessarily apply in my
own situation, and I see thatif we knew what was wrong, we'd
fix it Right.
So I think we just don't knowwhat to do to fix it.
I mean, right now.
I'm pretty transparent withtalking about successes and
(27:34):
failures.
Our company has an incrediblereputation.
I don't believe there's anyonebetter at what we do, and I
would thank anyone's benefits byusing us for recruiting and
staffing.
But we can't scale our salesorganization the way we should.
We keep hitting a ceiling, andif that formula exists, I'm
unaware of it.
So that's the question Do youthink that there's a formula you
(27:57):
can apply?
Do you think if you stepped indoing what you've had, because I
think you have to experiencesomething too right To know what
it feels like.
You have to start a business toknow what it's like to start a
business.
I can't describe hunger tosomeone who's never been hungry.
Right, but you've had thatsuccess.
Do you think you could stepinto any organization now and
say, here's how you can fix yoursales problems?
Any organization now and sayhere's how you can fix your
sales problems.
Diane Prince (28:18):
Yeah, and it's, and it yes, because I do that
and it's it.
It is different, Like it's justthe same thing.
When people ask me what, whatthe best way is to do biz dev,
it's, I believe it's.
It's, it's personal, Like it'sdifferent for different
organizations.
So, like what I've done withthe one client that I mentioned,
(28:41):
like what he's done isphenomenal and he actually
stepped in now as chief revenueofficer Like he's like I'm going
to be interim head of sales,because sometimes you do have to
dive in and like he's doingthings are completely just
moving the needle.
But, I look at it instead ofsaying, and I always in business
, because it can get sooverwhelming or you can feel
stuck or that you can't dosomething, but I turn it into a
(29:04):
question.
So I would say, if I were at,if I had a staffing agency and I
was stuck at 20 million andcouldn't get past that, what I,
how I would approach it is Iwonder how, I wonder how I'm
going to get to 50 million?
Right, and that was always likein business, like when I said
my clothing business was socomplicated, I mean we did, we
did had a multi-level marketingmodel and I manufactured the
(29:27):
clothing and like.
But every time that I step backand I said, like I didn't try
to figure it all out at once,you know, because getting past
20 million, I mean it's a bigthing, right, and it's like okay
, I wonder what the next step is, I wonder how I'm going to do
that.
And every time I've taken thatapproach, I've been able to.
(29:48):
Then the next step revealsitself.
Pete Newsome (29:52):
Interesting.
I love it, and so that's whatyou do.
Now, right, you step in, you goin.
How long does it take typicallyfor you to spend with a new
organization to have a goodsense of what their problems are
or, more specifically, whatthey need to improve and change?
Diane Prince (30:11):
Yeah, I mean it really depends.
I ask, I'm really good atasking questions.
It is like I had this oneclient who was telling me how to
do biz dev.
I said that's not.
Was telling me how to do bizdev, I said that's not how this
is going to work.
So you know, we always look atlike clues, like what has worked
, like what has worked in thepast, and then I mean three
weeks later she's slacking me.
I am obsessed like everythingyou've told me to do is working
(30:34):
and it's.
I mean, it's just stuff thatfrom asking her questions,
questions really.
So it's sort of like it's likea diet, any diet If you follow a
diet, it will work.
Pete Newsome (30:43):
Like it doesn't matter what you're doing, it's
Weight.
Diane Prince (30:45):
Watchers or Keto or whatever, but it's finding
the one that you're going to doand stick to and then also
figuring out how consistency is.
You know that grit Like?
Remember sales, sales is thelifeline of your business.
And that's another thing too,because often sales is like gets
put on the back burner whenpeople get busy.
But never forget that.
(31:07):
Never forget that sales is yourlifeline, because that's really
common too, that businesses aregrowing, things are, you know,
you think things are good, butthen all of a sudden you don't
have a pipeline because you'vetaken your foot off the gas on
sales.
Pete Newsome (31:21):
Right, absolutely, and that you know it's easy to
see how that can happen with asmall company who doesn't hire
in advance or in anticipation ofwhat's coming.
And to keep your foot on thegas exactly what you said.
Keep your foot on the gasExactly what you said.
I'm curious if you had a goodassigned a percentage to it,
(31:42):
maybe sales and recruiting only.
Maybe there's a third componentlike operations or other.
What would you say is typicallythe limiter?
And my impression from my peergroup is it's 90 percent.
Sales is a limitation and then10 percent recruiting and
anything else.
What do you see in yourconsulting practice?
Diane Prince (31:58):
Yeah, that is so interesting because people do
have different skills.
But yeah, it is most of thepeople that come to me have biz
dev challenges.
It is mostly challenges and bizdev.
But I would also say to yourpoint about the e-myth letting
go empowering other people.
Now, I used to be a terriblemanager and most people are.
(32:18):
I mean, most people aren'ttrained to manage and so I
really had to learn, like I hadto get tools to help me, and
that's one thing that I hope afew people are.
You know, some people are likeI'm a great manager, I cannot
recruit or do sales and I loveleading people.
You know there's anunderstanding to everybody's
(32:39):
different Sure.
Everybody's completely different, has different skill sets.
I think that personality israrer and there's personalities
that will build and scale andrun a mature business and they
have that ability to work withthe company and adapt and change
.
I'm not one of those people.
You know I build and then Ilike to get out.
(32:59):
But yeah, I would say that bizdev is definitely a lion's share
of the challenges.
Pete Newsome (33:08):
There's tens of thousands of staffing companies.
So this is a general question,of course, right, because, to
your point, every situation isunique.
Is a general question, ofcourse, right, because, to your
point, every situation is unique.
But how frequently do you thinkit's the people versus the
process?
When you go in and look atsomeone, look at a new
organization, a lot of peopleinherently don't like change.
(33:28):
We know that.
Especially successful peopleare successful to some degree,
right.
Even change is hard.
As an employee, we know that.
I think owners who hire you areprobably more willing to do
whatever it takes.
Diane Prince (33:41):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (33:42):
Or they wouldn't hire you in the first place,
right, they know what they'regetting into, they need your
advice, but how frequently is itthe people versus the process
that's the problem.
Diane Prince (33:51):
It's often the people and you know so.
Sometimes people do hire me andit takes them like a year to
want to be willing to change,which is pretty interesting.
Pete Newsome (34:03):
Why would they hire you in the first place?
Diane Prince (34:06):
They know that changes need to be made, but
everybody's different, likethere's some people that like
instantly.
They're like OK, I'm doing this, you know, and this is working,
but some things I don't know.
Just everybody's different andhears things when they need to.
But yeah, one thing that I seeas common is having the wrong
people who are mediocreperformers, right, and that sets
(34:33):
a culture and we're a servicebusiness and our business is our
people.
Like that's how good we are isthe people that we have.
Pete Newsome (34:41):
And that's it.
Diane Prince (34:42):
And being.
Another common thing is beingafraid to fire people and it's.
You know, that's when we dothat and there's a couple of key
roles that I help people to putinto their businesses.
So, to answer your question,too, about processes, so that
was a really key role for us isonce we hired an ops person.
(35:04):
That was key because he waslike, he was super detailed and
that was a skill that we didn'thave.
So it's people, but the peoplethen also putting in the
processes, and people have tofollow the processes.
And you also have to askyourself, when it is the people,
you have to ask yourself too,like is it me?
So there's, like you know, ifyou have this from EOS, do they
(35:24):
get it?
Do they want it and can they doit?
And if they don't get it, who'sfault?
Is it your fault or that?
Are they motivated?
You can't motivate someone morethan they're motivated for
themselves.
Do they want it?
Do they want the job and dothey have the capacity to do it?
And again, is that you or themLike, have you provided them
with what they need or is itjust somebody that just can't do
the job?
Pete Newsome (35:43):
Isn't it ultimately the owner's fault,
regardless right Fault forletting that persist, if nothing
else?
Diane Prince (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
You know it's always theowner's fault, so it's it's.
I mean, do you think you can?
Pete Newsome (35:55):
hire.
You think you could avoid thatbeing in that scenario by by
hiring better, which is which isironic that I'm asking that.
Right, we're in the staffingindustry and I tell companies,
clients, prospects, look, we'regoing to do everything we can up
front, but you don't know whatsomeone's like till you live
with them, right, you can haveall the panel interviews, you
(36:18):
can stretch it out, you can have10 rounds, whatever, whatever,
right, but you're not reallygoing to know.
I think there's a certain levelof assessment you can do on the
front end.
We know that.
Do you think you can?
Is that something you getinvolved in where you teach
people how to hire better?
Hire for the right thing, soyou're not having to fire
someone quickly?
Diane Prince (36:37):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
With some of my clients I evendo one of the rounds of the
interview which is usually 15minutes because they have really
specific questions I ask themand I, like, I'll find things
out.
Yeah, like you know, her goalis to you know.
Did you know that she just gotan LLC for her trucking business
yesterday?
Pete Newsome (36:54):
and that's what she wants to do, like that's.
Diane Prince (36:56):
You know they're like no, I didn't even know that
.
So, yeah, it's so.
I heard a long time ago thatwe're typically agency
recruiters, like we're typicallybad at hiring for ourselves
because we're different, Likewe're used to hiring people like
our product and we're kind oflike selling them.
You know so we kind of looksometimes, look at the good in
the person, selling them.
(37:17):
You know so we kind of look at,sometimes, look at the good in
the person.
But yeah, putting togethersystems really does help, but at
the same time you, like yousaid, you don't really know
until you have that.
But there's, there's certainthings especially, you know, I
have some pretty strong opinionsabout for agency recruiting
Most people get wrong.
Should I share a couple of themwith?
Pete Newsome (37:38):
you Sure yeah, absolutely.
Diane Prince (37:41):
So I mean one is they have to.
So one thing I ask is I'll askthem to rank a few words.
This is for a recruiter who'son commission, for agency right
who's on commission, or you knowpart of their part of their set
.
You know usually like abouthalf of their on target earnings
as commission.
So I always ask like, rankthese words in order, and one of
the words is compensation.
(38:01):
If they don't say compensationis number one, I want to know
why.
Pete Newsome (38:06):
Right.
Diane Prince (38:07):
Flexibility, work life balance, that's it's not
going to be the role.
You know.
Nothing is wrong with that, youknow.
And I want them to answerhonestly and the only answer
that I will accept if I say Inoticed you didn't say
compensation in your first two,because career growth is okay.
I think too, if thecompensation's second and if
they say, well, that's because Iknow I'll earn a lot of
(38:28):
commission and base salary isnot that important, I'm like
that's the only acceptableanswer because it's very
different.
Agency recruiting is reallydifferent.
And also I think it's a mistaketo only look at people with
recruiting backgrounds.
You know, I mean I think youcame from tech, my partner came
from title insurance and wehired recruiters who had worked
(38:52):
in our niche.
We did not hire recruiters fora long time, like we only hired
people that had worked in theniche, where that we were, that
we were where we were placingpeople there's.
I mean, look at, like everybodytrains differently, most
companies don't train well, andthen we're hiring people that
just because they have beenrecruiters and it I would rather
(39:12):
hire somebody that has thesense of urgency and is
motivated and you can train them.
And especially and this might bean unpopular thing to say, but
it's very different people whoare recruiting in-house than
agency.
And I wouldn't.
I do not hire in less.
So now agency people, I do helppeople from talent start their
(39:36):
own businesses.
That's different.
But agency recruiters, who arehiring people from talent, are
in-house recruiters because theyneed a job.
It's a completely differentskill set, it is mindset.
It's not even you know, it'sthe skill set, but the mindset
is completely different.
Pete Newsome (39:55):
Do you think that's unpopular?
I don't think that's anunpopular opinion.
I think it is a differentmindset.
Right, the skill set on paper,the job, may be similar, but the
motivation for doing it and thepurpose and the reason and how
you make money, I mean that'sall very different.
So to me it's an entirelydifferent role really.
I mean it has the same titleAgain, you're doing, going
(40:17):
through the same motions, kindof, but why you're doing it is
vastly different.
And when you're the, when you'reinternal, you have just a
different set of considerationsall day, every day, and one's
not better than the other and Idon't think one.
I think the person would wantthat, would thrive in staffing.
You know, an agency would notbe happy in talent acquisition
(40:39):
and vice versa.
Diane Prince (40:40):
Yeah.
And some people will say oninterviews, when I ask what
their career goal?
That's why it was my firstquestion what are your career
goals?
And some people say I want toeventually go into in-house
recruiting I'm like, well, thisisn't the job for you.
This business is not going tobe a stepping stone for you.
Pete Newsome (40:55):
You're not going to be happy right, whether you
could do it or not, and you havethe skills.
You're not going to enjoy it.
You're not going to wake upevery day having that sales
mentality which is just vastlydifferent than and that's what
agencies need.
Diane Prince (41:07):
That's what we need is we need people that are
going to wake up every day andwant to kill it.
Pete Newsome (41:18):
So hiring for recruiting is one thing for
sales, you know, for biz dev, doyou like?
This comes up a lot when I'mwhen I'm talking to my friends
in the industry how long do youlet a salesperson go until you
decide this person's not goingto work out like what's the time
?
How long do you let it gobefore you need to see results?
Diane Prince (41:34):
Oh gosh, that's a good question.
I mean, I do like the 360 model, so I like it because you know,
but I think some people though,I think in a 360 model.
If you have to recognize,though, that some people are
going to be stronger at BizDevand others recruiters, and don't
try to make them equal in bothsides, I don't know.
(41:58):
I think it depends.
I don't know that's a goodquestion.
I don't know if I have like aspecific length of time.
It's tough.
I think hiring salespeople isone of the toughest things.
Pete Newsome (42:08):
It is, it is and that's where, as we talked about
a few minutes ago, I think somany companies are looking for
that answer and feel that thator at least feel that that's
that would be the solution totheir problems.
And I think they're rightbecause of my own experience
where, if I had a formula Icould I'm very confident that we
can identify potentialrecruiters.
We generally hire people who'venever worked in recruiting.
(42:30):
There's some exceptions, butfirst, second job out of school,
sometimes first, but just theright mindset, as you described
earlier.
Diane Prince (42:38):
So we're very much on the same page there well,
you do have a business formula,though, because that's what
that's what I hear a lot is.
People think like that, but sowhat I believe is that you start
out with you doing it yourselfright.
You do this because you have tofit, you have to know, because
a common mistake is people hirelead gen companies.
They hire outside salespeoplewho just don't work.
(43:00):
That doesn't work.
It happens a lot.
So I think it's reallyimportant to find, and so if
you're, say, if you're juststarting out in your agency, or
even now, like where you're at,you look back at clues and
things that have worked.
So if you're a new agency owner, you're starting out as, maybe
as a solopreneur, but you knowyou want to scale then look at
everything as.
Treat every moment like you'retraining somebody else.
(43:21):
Treat every call like OK, thisis I'm creating a sales process
and these are, these are waysthat you can sell, this is what
I'm creating a sales process andthese are ways that you can
sell.
This is what's worked.
Also, I was in between.
I told you I've gotten out ofstaffing a few times and I was
in the startup world and I washead of sales for two different
startups and for one of them.
What we did was and I didn't,it was like content thought
(43:44):
leadership.
I knew nothing about the space,so I was in charge of selling
and then building a sales teamand the founders were these two
Harvard grads that wereabsolutely brilliant.
So what I did first and you cando this in staffing so I just
listened, I brought people intocalls.
(44:04):
So I was basically a BDR bizdev rep and I'd bring people in,
put them on a call with thefounder.
I was on the call, I listened, Ijust furiously took notes and
talking points.
It's like, okay, she said this,she said this.
And then the more calls that Iwas on, the more things that I
heard her repeat and I'm like,okay, okay.
And then finally I'm like, okay, I can do this now.
(44:32):
So this is a way to kind of see, like if you look back at clues
, what's worked for you, youknow.
Then bring someone on who'slike, okay, I'm going to be on
calls with Pete, listen to whatPete says.
Okay, if you have someone smartwho's motivated and they keep
on listening, they keep onhearing those talking points,
you know, so they getcomfortable because the more
that you, the more confident,the more that you know the
product, the better you're goingto sell.
(44:53):
Have you read the Way of theWolf by Jordan Belford?
Pete Newsome (44:57):
I know.
I mean I know his story, but Ihaven't read his book.
Diane Prince (45:00):
You might like that and he talks about that and
how important product knowledgeis.
So I would have him on yourcalls like calls like listen,
listen, listen, you know.
Pete Newsome (45:10):
Yeah, it's, that's so true.
I mean, I, I, I have thought ofit and described it over the
years as having arrows in yourquiver right To to draw from.
I've seen every scenario dozens, if not hundreds, of times.
There's no question that'sgoing to surprise me.
I, I, and and and that's justme being in the role for a long
(45:32):
time.
But if you're new, you can getstumped easily.
You don't know how to respond.
You're thinking too much if youwill, versus just being in the
moment.
And it's very obvious, I think,to whoever you're talking to if
you're not really justlistening and then really
hearing and under comprehendingwhat they're saying and then
responding accordingly.
Diane Prince (45:51):
And.
Pete Newsome (45:51):
I don't know of a way to teach that other than
hands on, like you described.
I think that's really.
It's hard to do, it's timeconsuming, to say the least, but
I think that is a secret, ifyou will to to success in
training Someone is.
Just let them see.
I've been through that.
It's been a couple of years,quite a few years, but with one
(46:14):
rep in particular who we hired,and I just remember she would
say repeat phrases that I said,but not really in the right
context.
And then she would see how theywould be the response you'd get.
And she worked it out and ittook her months of being pretty
awful, to be quite frank, untilshe wasn't anymore Just like I
(46:35):
was awful.
And then, once it clicked, itwas just a beautiful thing to
see and she just grew so fastand had so much success.
I wish she was still here.
I mean, she has six kids nowand has no time for this
business anymore.
Diane Prince (46:54):
But yeah, higher I think you know in that, in that
.
So it sounds like you hadsomebody then who had that
tenacity to keep on doing andpracticing and then the the kind
of the mental common sense toput things together.
Cause then also question, likeI have scripts in my program
like asking questions and if youapproach it also like with the
curiosity instead of pitching,because when you go into a call
that you're like knowing you'rethinking you're going to pitch
(47:17):
it doesn't, it typically doesn'twork.
You want to go in, you knowthat's like you want to go in
just understanding what theirproblem is and then you can
decide how you can solve theirproblem and they have to see you
as a solution, right, solvingtheir problem.
Pete Newsome (47:33):
Yeah, that's.
That's the thing that I thinksalespeople need to.
If you're going to be asalesperson, you have to learn
is that success comes fromasking questions and not from
not from talking and sharingyour opinions on things.
Yeah, I was thinking back nowto to this reps experience and
and she was in sales for threeor four months before she went
out on maternity leave for thefirst time and I don't think
she'd closed anything in thattimeframe and so the whole time
(47:56):
she was gone, I was thinkingabout the conversation I needed
to have when she came back and Isaid, hey, would you like to go
back in recruiting for a littlewhile, learn more?
And she's like, absolutely not,I'm going to figure this out.
Diane Prince (48:05):
You know that tenacity and grit was in place
but you can't teach that Mostpeople give up way too early in
sales.
Yeah, and what you said becausethat goes back to the question
that you asked how long do yougive somebody?
And then, like what you justsaid about what had that
person's attitude that says,that says it all.
Because if it's, if it's 90days in and they haven't closed
(48:29):
or brought calls, you know youalso want to like, have have
little successes, ways that theyknow like it could be if you
bring in, you know, 10 contractsor whatever, like little things
or get calls, like littlethings, that they can have
success along the way.
That will help motivate them sothat they know that they can,
they feel some success.
But also, you know, 90 days, in, 45 days, in, whatever.
(48:51):
Hey, you know you're you'rediscussing this.
They haven't had much action.
You can tell if they're likewell, it's the market, no, but
if they're like, is it me?
You know, is it them, are theygoing to take it?
Well, maybe I could try this,maybe it's because I did this,
then I'd give them more of achance.
Pete Newsome (49:14):
But if they're blaming other external,
circumstances or whatever, theydon't have a growth mindset?
No, not at all.
All right, diane.
One more question and I'm goingto let you go who should
contact you?
What kind of firm, what kind ofhelp if it's needed?
Should someone reach out to youto solve for them, and who's
your profile prospect?
Diane Prince (49:32):
Yeah, agency owners who are going through
hurdles.
I work with a lot of solofounders.
I also work with some teams andI am a sounding board.
I provide a neutral third partyso it can be more mature
agencies that are that need,they want an executive coach,
they want they, they realizethey, they, they understand
there's probably value intalking about things and getting
(49:54):
other ideas and opinions,helping to see their blind spots
.
And then also I work with brandnew agency owners who are just
starting out and help them, helpthem.
So there's, I guess there'sthree things.
So sometimes it's people fromtalent, it's other people who
are starting out recruitingagencies.
And then also some of thepeople in my program have been,
have had permanent placementbusinesses for years, even since
(50:16):
the eighties, and now they'relooking at adding staff,
temporary staffing.
So that's another, that'sanother group that I serve.
Pete Newsome (50:24):
Wonderful.
Well, I we've spent enough timetogether over the past hour to
know that whoever you work withis going to benefit.
I feel very confident from that.
It's just you know, when you'vebeen in this business as long
as I have, you just know whensomeone gets it and has the
depth of knowledge, and youclearly have that to a very,
very significant degree.
So I really appreciate yourtime today.
This has been an absolutepleasure.
Diane Prince (50:51):
Yeah, it's awesome , ty.
We've been enjoying.
I've been enjoying talking toyou on.
Pete Newsome (50:53):
LinkedIn and commenting and stuff, so it's
great to sit down and spend thistime with you Awesome.
Well, diane Prince, thank youso much for today and look
forward to talking soon.
Bye, pete.
You're listening to the Hire Calling Podcast,
your source for all thingshiring, staffing and recruiting.
I'm Pete Newsome and my guesttoday is Diane.
Prince Diane, how are you today?
Diane Prince (00:11):
Hey, pete, I'm great Glad to be here.
This is my highlight of the day, so I was excited about it.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
I'll take it.
Diane Prince (00:17):
I'll take what I can get.
Pete Newsome (00:18):
Highlight of the day is good enough, diane, you
are a coach today.
You have a long history instaffing We'll talk about that
but you spend your time todaycoaching owners of recruiting
and staffing companies, helpingrecruiting firms get into
staffing, if they're not already.
Tell us a little bit, just tokick things off, about how you
spend your days today.
Diane Prince (00:39):
Yeah, so thanks for the question.
So I have some clients who Icall my executive coaching level
clients, and that's verycustomized, different things
that founders go through.
Sometimes it's issues withtheir business partners or
co-founders growing, managingtheir executive teams, things
like that.
So that's part of my day, andthen I also have a group program
(01:02):
where I basically want to helpagency owners and anyone who
wants to start an agency.
I guess I have a lot of variedexperience, so I want to help
them with all aspects of it, andone thing in particular that
I'm really passionate about isbuilding an asset in your
business.
So, as you mentioned, one ofthe things I work on is helping
(01:23):
people to understand how to addtemp staffing as an offering so
that they have recurring revenue.
Pete Newsome (01:28):
So the highlight of this conversation is, in many
respects, is that you havegrown and sold staffing
companies that won for at least50 million dollars and that I'm
sorry.
You grew the company at 50million dollars, sold it for 28.
I know that's public sohopefully you don't mind me
sharing that.
Congratulations on that, thankyou.
That is commendable andsomething that many recruiting
(01:52):
and staffing companies owners,who I know, aspire to achieve.
So we'll see what kind ofsecrets we can get out of you
today on that if you're willingto share.
Diane Prince (02:01):
Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (02:03):
Well, let's go backwards and go forwards.
How did you get started instaffing?
Diane Prince (02:13):
How did you get into this crazy world in the
first place?
Yeah Well, I temped a lot.
I temped through college andgrad school.
My first experience was I usedto get.
When I was in college, I usedto get student work permits and
go work abroad.
And when I was 19, I waspouring beer at the glass blower
pub in Soho in London, which Iwasn't really a legal briefing
agent in the States.
I was obviously super cluelessand the one and only night that
(02:33):
I worked there I was asked howfast I type.
And then I got into.
Then that's how I started.
I got into staffing and on myfirst assignment I overheard the
office manager tell anotheremployee remind me to never to
hire a temp again.
So and then I just I tempedthrough college and grad school,
so I was familiar but reallygot started because I wanted to.
(02:57):
I started with the vision and Ithink it's really important for
anyone going intoentrepreneurship to know what
they want to get out of it.
And so it was really my thenhusband and I.
We were in our mid-20s.
We wanted to see if we couldstart a business that we could
build and exit and retire in our30s.
So it didn't start with hey, Ihave a recruiting experience,
(03:20):
let's start a temp agency.
It was this is our goal, andthen what are different
businesses that could get usthere?
That said that we could achievethat goal.
And then we back into it.
Pete Newsome (03:30):
You started with the end in mind?
Really yes, which is rare, Ithink from from the staffing
companies I owners that, who Iknow, had you worked as a
recruiter prior to that or ornot at all.
Diane Prince (03:42):
No, not at all.
I had, I would know.
I had a master's degree inFrench literature and I was
working at a computerdistributor as a system buyer.
I mean random and.
But we put together because.
So my dad has spent his entirecareer in title insurance and
then he got my husband a job ina title insurance company.
So that was our niche.
(04:02):
So we saw the need in thatniche for contract workers and
that's where we started.
Pete Newsome (04:09):
Okay, that's fascinating.
That's really unique and rare.
Good for you for seeing that.
But I have to ask whichdistributor did you work for?
I worked for Tech DataCorporation for a number of
years.
Diane Prince (04:18):
Okay, I was at, maricel.
Did you ever hear of?
Pete Newsome (04:20):
Maricel yeah, I remember Maricel.
Yeah, I think Tech Data andMaricel back in those days this
was in the 90s were kind of neckand neck and I was also a buyer
for a number of years 3Com andNortel Networks and products is
what I spent my days on back along time ago to be in that
world.
So okay, so you started thebusiness easier said than done.
High failure rate what allowedyou to succeed, do you think,
(04:50):
when so many others fail?
Diane Prince (04:51):
Gosh, just I mean.
Well, one thing I think notknowing anything was in some
ways helpful, and not having youknow it was a lot of common
sense.
Not that I had a lot of commonsense back then, no one who
starts a business.
Does I don't think Right, maybea little bit more now than in my
20s, hopefully, but I mean grit, honestly it was.
(05:12):
And also not gettingoverwhelmed, like one thing we
did was just one step, like onestep at a time, and just started
Like just did it.
You know there's so many peoplewho have.
I'm sure you know it's notabout the idea and having the
idea you have to have a goodidea but it's about the
(05:32):
execution.
And I mean people would say tous like people would come and
pick up their paychecks andthey'd be like, oh, great idea,
I had this idea three years agoand we're like, well,
(06:05):
no-transcript, effectively thatI didn't know what I was doing
either.
Pete Newsome (06:12):
But I had an idea.
I knew enough about theindustry and knew how to sell
and believed I can get clients.
But I didn't know if I couldrecruit.
It had been a long time and theworld had changed.
I was recruiting pre-Monster,pre-internet, when I first
started.
People would historically cometo me and say I want to be an
entrepreneur.
I'd say, great, what's youridea?
And they'd say I don't know.
I just know I don't want towork for someone else.
(06:34):
You actually did that becausemy advice over the years has
been people will come up with anidea first.
You have to know how you'regoing to make money and you have
to be good at something.
You you took a very differentapproach, which I find
fascinating.
Diane Prince (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, because I think you know people
who have ideas, cause I'm sureyou know, you hear it all the
time I have this, this businessidea, or we do this business
with me, and the thing is it'sit's really it's about because
entrepreneurship is such it's itchanges the the whole, your
whole life and the way that youlive.
So you have to want to havethat, you have to understand
(07:10):
Well, not that you canunderstand it until you're there
, but you really have to havethat drive, because otherwise
what I find is that you canstart a business and I have
clients who who come to me whohave successful businesses, but
they don't like them becausethey've built a business not
around how they want to live.
So that's why I think it is soimportant to have that drive and
(07:30):
know you want to be anentrepreneur, even more so than
the idea, because otherwise youcan be led by an idea and then
you're solving problems for theworld and other people, but
you're not solving your ownproblems.
Pete Newsome (07:42):
Well, I believe most entrepreneurs fall into the
category that I did, which issomeone who is a tactician, for
lack of a better way to put it.
There's a book called theE-Myth.
I don't know if you've everread that book.
Diane Prince (07:53):
And.
Pete Newsome (07:54):
I think that's a phrase that comes from that book
it's been years since I've readit where you're good at doing
something In my case it wasselling and so I believe there's
a better way to do it.
I wanted to do business in apersonal way.
I was tired of working forFortune 500 companies that were
constantly telling me what Icouldn't do and contracts that I
couldn't change.
I just wanted to operate withefficiency and fluidity, and the
(08:15):
only way I was going to do thatwas start my own business.
But I suspect that most peopledon't really know what they're
getting into when they start abusiness.
I certainly didn't.
I thought I'd have more freedom.
I think I have less.
Since I did work in for anothercompany.
What was different coming inthan what you expected?
Diane Prince (08:36):
You know, I'm not even sure how to answer that
question because I think I justlike we started working on it
pretty quickly after we had thatidea in mind.
So I don't even know if I hadexpectations.
You know, back then I tend tobe a pretty spontaneous person.
I've worked on that, like Ihave a lot of tools now that I
(08:57):
that I employ to not be.
You know, I have very highlevel of risk tolerance.
So I would say for me it wasn't.
I don't know if I really had,and I can't even remember if I
did, like had, specificexpectations, but I mean it was
like not nothing, like I, it'slike having a baby which you
know.
You just don't know if you'relike you can't you can't explain
(09:20):
to someone what it's going tobe like before you know.
You just have to experience it,no matter what, how many, what
words you try, and it's the samething with entrepreneurship you
just don't really know untilyou're doing it.
Pete Newsome (09:30):
So I'm curious.
I started on my own.
I was by myself, Didn't have apeer.
I missed that.
I didn't have a manager.
I missed that too, by nothaving anyone else to turn
around and ask a question of.
It was just yeah, the buckreally does stop a few, but you
had a partner.
Do you think that that allowedyou?
You think that was helpful atthe beginning?
I don't know any different.
(09:51):
You don't either, because youstarted with a partner.
But when you look at thebenefits and potential negatives
of that, what's your take onstarting with a partner?
Diane Prince (10:00):
Yeah, because and I did I was a solo founder with
my clothing business and it'sway different.
I mean, ok, so having goodpartners is amazing and what the
thing that makes?
From my experience in differentpartners, the thing that makes
a partnership successful is thateach person has a really their
(10:22):
own, their own personal missionand something that they know
that they want to get out of thebusiness and that sticks people
together, because, I mean,there were times when people
would have left, but having thatlike having everybody's
individual drive, and that againgoes back to the vision, not
just like, oh, that's a goodidea.
Let me do it with you, becausethen I did try to have a
co-founder with my clothingbusiness.
(10:42):
It was more like looking forsomething to do and it didn't
work.
I think that having goodpartnerships and co-founders is
fantastic, but having the wrongone is disastrous.
That's part of why I startedcoaching is because I saw what
it was like to be a solo founder, and so a lot of my clients are
(11:03):
solo founders, some I work withteams, executive teams but
having that person, having asounding board because that's
what I had when I had partnersand then when I was, when I was
a solo founder.
I realized I was driving myemployees crazy, because I'm
like bouncing ideas off of themand then all of a sudden they're
, they're, they're implementingthem, and I'm like, what do you
(11:23):
mean?
Like I was just talking, youknow so.
So yeah, it is, it is a bigdifference.
But you don't want to have, youdon't want to have the wrong
partner, because that can just.
That's terrible.
Pete Newsome (11:33):
I found it surprisingly lonely for years.
For years I thought that I andI craved to have a peer some, or
a manager even, which whichsounds crazy, in a way, for
people who haven't been in thatposition.
I've had this conversation withso many over the years.
They're like what do you mean?
You wish you had a manager, Iwish I had someone to be that
(11:54):
sounding board, as you mentioned.
And it's not the same withemployees, I found, because
everyone's motivations aregenuine, right, but they all
have a different perspective andangle that they come from,
whether it's conscious or not,where if you have a co-founder,
you're really in it with someoneelse who has the same end game
(12:14):
in mind in your case, that youdid.
And I find that justfascinating because so many
decisions I've made over theyears, I look back on and think
if I had someone else to tell me, no, that's a bad idea, I
probably would have ended up ina very different place a better
place.
Maybe not, but it's easy to lookat the bad decisions and think
(12:34):
I wish I had avoided those.
I've made a few good ones alongthe way too.
I think a partner ispotentially very valuable to a
founder.
So early success that's hard tocome by, did you?
Was there a point ever when youstarted where you said this
isn't going to work?
I mean, did you come out of thegate?
(12:54):
You know fast, how did?
How did the early years go?
Diane Prince (12:58):
Yeah, I mean we came out of the gate fast.
We had it was we.
We actually thought the clientthat we thought was going to be
our like, we're like if we justhave them.
It was Chicago title.
That's where my dad worked.
We met with HR, you know,before we were like, yes, but
they took a long time to evenuse us.
But then we got, I mean got ourfirst client really quickly.
(13:19):
It was so back then.
You know, you mentioned beforemonster but beginnings of emails
.
So I had an ad in the LA Timesand it was a three-line ad
because they were only $120.
And I put out an ad for a titleassistant and it was near my
work, and so I'd go on my lunchbreak and I got a resume, the
first resume I got.
(13:39):
I cried, I couldn't believesomeone sent me a resume.
I quit my job the next dayImpulsive was the word I was
looking for before and then Igot my first client.
Our first client it was a hugeclient was Fidelity National
Title.
I just started doing referencechecks, so I started asking
(14:01):
everybody for references andthen I just called and I didn't
have a job for her, but her namewas Karen Saul and I said I'm
calling to ask you somequestions about Karen Saul and
he's like I'm like, and we arecalled Title Temps at first I'm
like this is Diane from TitleTemps and he was like from what?
I'm like this is Diane fromTitle Temps and he was like from
what?
And then I'm like, oh, youdon't know about us.
Pete Newsome (14:22):
And then I mean we literally had no business at
the time.
Yeah, nobody knows about us.
Diane Prince (14:24):
And I'm like we sent someone over to come talk
to you.
And then I'm like you know,we're 26, 27.
My husband grabs his briefcaseand he goes down to Orange
County, which is like a two-hourdrive and and we got it.
You know, we got our firstclient.
Pete Newsome (14:37):
So reference checks have to ask you about
that.
I was taught the same way.
That was 101 when I startedwith Aerotech in 1993.
Checked references and we stillcheck references on everyone
today.
It's something that I believein strongly as a recruiter.
I think that's my job.
I'm surprised that it doesn'thappen very frequently today.
Have you seen that as well?
Diane Prince (14:58):
Yeah, I mean surprised in one way, and I mean
even like with my clients, likethat's one thing too.
Like I'm always asking forreferences for vendors and like
anybody.
I mean, you learn so much, so Ijust make it my policy Anyone
I'm going to work with, I needto ask for, I need to get
references.
That also gives me a bit ofcooling off period, you know,
(15:20):
and if I get excited abouthiring or working with someone,
but yeah, and then also, just asfar as for biz dev, I mean
connecting the dots.
It's like you know, that's gold.
Pete Newsome (15:31):
Yeah, and I tell my team today that if I started
from scratch and didn't have anynetwork at all, if you dropped
me in a strange city, I wouldstart just speaking with
candidates and asking them whothey worked for, who they
reported to, what was going onat their previous jobs, and
references would be the defaultway I would develop business.
It seems to be a bit of a lostart.
(15:53):
Why do you think that is?
Diane Prince (15:55):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think it's also what I'venoticed, not just the references
, but, peop, I think it'sbecause, well, there's so much
information out there today,right like when I started, we we
bought a book called rememberthose dummies books the black it
was it was how to start a tempagency for dummies that was yeah
(16:16):
yes, I wish I it.
I've been trying to Google it tofind it, but that was that was
literally how we started.
That was the information thatwas available, right, and we
like took someone to dinner whoworked at, like, apple one or
something like that, but otherthan that there's.
But now.
So when people, when peoplecome to me and are in my program
or they'll ask me, like, how doI do biz dev, and I think
(16:39):
people, for some reason, peopleinstinctually go to cold
outreach or they go to they feellike there's something that
other people are doing that theydon't know.
And most of the people you knowlook at their LinkedIn and I'm
like I guarantee you you haveenough warm leads to build a $50
(17:00):
million business.
You know I now I do coldoutreach.
I like cold outreach, I likehaving it going on in the
background.
Don't get me wrong.
Cold outreach is great, but forsome reason, people just kind
of I don't know what it is they,they, they, it's like it's like
they.
It's almost like they doubtthemselves or they doubt their
network, or they doubt the andand and.
But yeah, I don't know, becausethat's our business, is people
(17:23):
driven.
And we all, we all say we buildrelationships right, like who
doesn't say that?
And that's all it is.
And it's so easy.
If you, it's not easy, but ifyou pick up the phone and you
talk to candidates, you're goingto get.
You're going to get business.
Pete Newsome (17:40):
I think there's a because I've, I've this has been
a conversation I've had manytimes over the years internally,
and I think that there's a uh,a fear of of being rejected, a
fear of asking for business andnot feeling worthy of asking for
it if you're speaking withsomeone who's senior.
A lot of recruiters are youngand when I started I was 23, 22
even maybe and I remember one ofmy first candidates wanted to
(18:03):
come by the office and the guywas older than my dad and I was
terrified because I felt like afraud.
I thought who am I, this 22year old kid, talking to this
guy who's in his fifties, abouthis salary and very intimate
details?
And I had to get over that andto sell, which I've done
throughout my career.
You have to have a certainlevel of confidence and I find
(18:23):
that that's hard to come byright.
The talking to candidates isone thing.
Recruiters feel like they'redoing them, providing a service
for them.
But, that doesn't translate whenit comes to speaking with
prospective clients.
It almost feels like you're notqualified to ask for to do
business with them.
Where I find that sointeresting?
(18:44):
Because people of course weshould ask, we're in the
staffing business, they're inthe hiring business.
We should be asking them howthey hire.
Diane Prince (18:52):
Here's a, here's a , here's a tip that I cause I I
agree with you and some people.
Some people I think are naturalare more natural biz dev people
and some people some people Ithink are natural are more
natural biz dev people and somepeople are more natural
recruiters.
Like I'm not as detail oriented, I'm much more natural and biz
dev than I am at recruiting.
But I also, like, did animposter syndrome test and it
(19:12):
was like congratulations you'reone of the 5% that doesn't have
imposter syndrome.
Pete Newsome (19:17):
Okay, that's good, that's important.
Diane Prince (19:20):
But one thing that I tell people is just remember,
especially for entrepreneursand agency owners, you know to
hype yourself up before callsand just like, remember they're
just people in jobs.
Like these are people,especially entrepreneurs.
I'm like you're doing cool shit, like you're building a
business, You're doing this foryour family, like you have,
you're a, you're an entrepreneur, this person's they're not.
(19:42):
You know not to like downplaythem or anything, but like
they're just people in jobs andit's not so, so there's.
And also just like, putyourself in a place of like this
is what.
This is what they need me to beright now.
You know, they don't need melike this client, this person
I'm going to call.
They need me to be the personthat's going to tell them how
I'm going to solve their problemand fill their roles.
This is what they need from meright now.
(20:04):
They don't need like nobodyneeds me to be this.
Like you know, be anxious andyou know so it's kind of like
you're not saying that you won'thave that fear or those
feelings, but those are somethings that I find that help to
get past that.
Pete Newsome (20:17):
Well, and you have to walk through the fire to
some degree.
I was a terrible.
I was so awkward, I had an outof body experience.
Every time I would stand up infront of a room for years when I
was young, until I didn'tanymore.
And then one day it just clicksand you do realize you're
worthy, you do realize you'renot an imposter by doing it.
But I don't know, and I've neverfigured out, how to train
(20:40):
someone to be comfortable withthat unless they're willing to
put in the reps and to do it andto be awkward and to be
uncomfortable and to say stupidthings.
And then you realize well, I'mnot going to say that again,
there's a better way to say it Ifind that the most limiting
thing in the staffing industry.
So I want to talk about thatfor a minute.
(21:00):
As to why you think mostcompanies are stunted in their
growth, you figured out how tobreak past the ceiling that's
very common of being around 20million in revenue.
Your founder driven companies.
That just can't scale.
Why?
What do you think the limiteris?
I have my own thoughts on it,but we agreed to talk about this
on air.
Diane Prince (21:20):
So one thing that I think is the lack of client
diversity and having an anchorclient strategy, because a lot
of agencies will rely on acouple of big clients and it's
really important to have thatdiversification.
And then there's the mindsetpart as well, and thinking that
(21:44):
you, just you know, if we havethese ideas in our head, like
this is the size I'm going to be.
That's, you know, generally,the size that we become.
So it's knowing like.
I think that like peoplemessage me all the time and
they're like I had no idea Icould build an eight-figure
agency until I saw your post onLinkedIn.
(22:04):
And it's like people buildnine-figure agencies, like
people who started, you know,when I started.
There's people who are stilldoing it, who are billionaires.
You know they didn't sell outthat's what, that was their path
.
I think just knowing thatthat's even an option is that I
think those are two of thereasons I think that people?
Pete Newsome (22:24):
what do you think?
So we talked briefly about thee-myth book and I think a lot of
it comes down to that, wherethe person who starts a business
has a certain level ofconfidence and ability to
recruit to sell.
They may have a history in theindustry, enough clients where
they feel like they can hang ashingle and pay their bills.
But, tactician, they're the onewho's doing the job, they're in
(22:49):
the business, they're notrunning a business.
So in hindsight, if I went back18 years, I would do things
very differently than I have.
I would have pulled myself outof that role much sooner.
I would have.
I'm not a good manager.
I'm not an empathetic manager.
I'm not.
I'm an.
I'm made to be an individualcontributor.
That's why I was able to starta business and I was the only
(23:10):
salesperson until I think wewere probably about 10 million
in revenue.
I could sell.
It was natural for me.
It was what I was meant to do,but I wasn't meant to manage
necessarily and to be able totrain other people.
Selling to me is natural.
I can't tell you why.
I'm good at selling.
I just am good at selling andI've tried every possible way
(23:30):
over the years to build andtrain the sales force and we
have great salespeople but Ithink they're great
independently of what we'vetaught or tried to do, because
that's been our limiter.
And when I talk to peers aroundthe country through TechServe
Alliance I'm in a peer groupthere, other associations it is
a recurring theme where you canfigure out recruiting right.
(23:54):
I mean, some companies do itbetter than others.
But if there's some basicthings that if you, if you can
get down and have the rightsystem and you're efficient and
have the right employees andtake care of them, you can
recruit.
But to sell, to develop newbusiness, that seems to be the
limiter is what I've seen ofcompanies.
You hit a ceiling where I justI'm just using 20 million as a
(24:15):
round number that companiesreally just have trouble getting
past because they can't developa sales force.
Do you think that's?
Uh, is that a surprise for youto hear?
Do you agree with?
Diane Prince (24:24):
that well, I, I hear what you're saying.
I think I think there gets tobe a point where, once you get
to, you know now that you'resaying it and I have a client
around that same, that samerevenue, and like what I, what I
observed is that sometimes youalso get used to how you're
doing things.
So, like you've built a companya certain way, you might have
(24:48):
some key people on your team,what you definitely do at that
point, you have some executiveson your team and then at some
point sometimes the companystarts running you, you, and if
you're not continually drivingto move the needle, it's.
You know it's like it's like ina family, like family dynamics
(25:08):
are very difficult to change.
You know we all have what kindof our roles in our, in our
families sure, and it's reallyhard to be someone different and
break out of it.
And I think it's very similarwhen you build a business people
get, patterns happen, culturebuilds and sometimes it's it's
difficult to innovate.
So I think it's just alwayslike what's important is always,
(25:29):
and in seeking help and gettinglike you're, you're in a group
and I'm in that's, you know,hire me to kind of help them to
see things in a different way,and I think that's something
that also.
What do you think about that?
Pete Newsome (25:43):
I think you're right.
I think it's you don't knowwhat you don't know, and when
you don't have someone lookingover your shoulder, the emperor
not having any clothes, so tospeak right when I observed one
of my clients.
Over the years I saw them growfrom a relatively small
organization to a very large oneand we were I had a front row
view for that because I was ableto staff many of their people
(26:05):
and it was like my baby foryears.
And they grew to a point theystarted to have challenges
within the organization afterthey hit a couple thousand
people and the challenges thatdidn't exist when they had 100,
200 employees, because it was adifferent kind of organization.
And I would say out loud theCEO needs to remove themselves
(26:27):
from the equation because theperson that had the foresight to
start the business, who was atrailblazer, an innovator, I
mean, just took a lot ofexcellence in what they did.
It's a different skill set thanrunning a 2,000 person
organization.
Not that we've grown to thatpoint, far from it but the skill
set that allowed me to quit myjob.
My wife was pregnant with herthird child at the time, right,
so I was like I'm quitting andI'm going to do this because I'm
(26:50):
tired of talking about it.
There's a catalyst that causedme to do it.
Not everyone will do that, I'maware of that, you know that.
But I did and I survived and Ifigured it out and I had the
work ethic and I had the salesability to get business.
I figured out recruiting right.
Losing was not an option.
I had all of whatever that is.
Those are an entirely differentset of skills than what allows
(27:11):
someone to scale an organizationand to manage a team, and so I
think what I saw in others Icouldn't necessarily apply in my
own situation, and I see thatif we knew what was wrong, we'd
fix it Right.
So I think we just don't knowwhat to do to fix it.
I mean, right now.
I'm pretty transparent withtalking about successes and
(27:34):
failures.
Our company has an incrediblereputation.
I don't believe there's anyonebetter at what we do, and I
would thank anyone's benefits byusing us for recruiting and
staffing.
But we can't scale our salesorganization the way we should.
We keep hitting a ceiling, andif that formula exists, I'm
unaware of it.
So that's the question Do youthink that there's a formula you
(27:57):
can apply?
Do you think if you stepped indoing what you've had, because I
think you have to experiencesomething too right To know what
it feels like.
You have to start a business toknow what it's like to start a
business.
I can't describe hunger tosomeone who's never been hungry.
Right, but you've had thatsuccess.
Do you think you could stepinto any organization now and
say, here's how you can fix yoursales problems?
Any organization now and sayhere's how you can fix your
sales problems.
Diane Prince (28:18):
Yeah, and it's, and it yes, because I do that
and it's it.
It is different, Like it's justthe same thing.
When people ask me what, whatthe best way is to do biz dev,
it's, I believe it's.
It's, it's personal, Like it'sdifferent for different
organizations.
So, like what I've done withthe one client that I mentioned,
(28:41):
like what he's done isphenomenal and he actually
stepped in now as chief revenueofficer Like he's like I'm going
to be interim head of sales,because sometimes you do have to
dive in and like he's doingthings are completely just
moving the needle.
But, I look at it instead ofsaying, and I always in business
, because it can get sooverwhelming or you can feel
stuck or that you can't dosomething, but I turn it into a
(29:04):
question.
So I would say, if I were at,if I had a staffing agency and I
was stuck at 20 million andcouldn't get past that, what I,
how I would approach it is Iwonder how, I wonder how I'm
going to get to 50 million?
Right, and that was always likein business, like when I said
my clothing business was socomplicated, I mean we did, we
did had a multi-level marketingmodel and I manufactured the
(29:27):
clothing and like.
But every time that I step backand I said, like I didn't try
to figure it all out at once,you know, because getting past
20 million, I mean it's a bigthing, right, and it's like okay
, I wonder what the next step is, I wonder how I'm going to do
that.
And every time I've taken thatapproach, I've been able to.
(29:48):
Then the next step revealsitself.
Pete Newsome (29:52):
Interesting.
I love it, and so that's whatyou do.
Now, right, you step in, you goin.
How long does it take typicallyfor you to spend with a new
organization to have a goodsense of what their problems are
or, more specifically, whatthey need to improve and change?
Diane Prince (30:11):
Yeah, I mean it really depends.
I ask, I'm really good atasking questions.
It is like I had this oneclient who was telling me how to
do biz dev.
I said that's not.
Was telling me how to do bizdev, I said that's not how this
is going to work.
So you know, we always look atlike clues, like what has worked
, like what has worked in thepast, and then I mean three
weeks later she's slacking me.
I am obsessed like everythingyou've told me to do is working
(30:34):
and it's.
I mean, it's just stuff thatfrom asking her questions,
questions really.
So it's sort of like it's likea diet, any diet If you follow a
diet, it will work.
Pete Newsome (30:43):
Like it doesn't matter what you're doing, it's
Weight.
Diane Prince (30:45):
Watchers or Keto or whatever, but it's finding
the one that you're going to doand stick to and then also
figuring out how consistency is.
You know that grit Like?
Remember sales, sales is thelifeline of your business.
And that's another thing too,because often sales is like gets
put on the back burner whenpeople get busy.
But never forget that.
(31:07):
Never forget that sales is yourlifeline, because that's really
common too, that businesses aregrowing, things are, you know,
you think things are good, butthen all of a sudden you don't
have a pipeline because you'vetaken your foot off the gas on
sales.
Pete Newsome (31:21):
Right, absolutely, and that you know it's easy to
see how that can happen with asmall company who doesn't hire
in advance or in anticipation ofwhat's coming.
And to keep your foot on thegas exactly what you said.
Keep your foot on the gasExactly what you said.
I'm curious if you had a goodassigned a percentage to it,
(31:42):
maybe sales and recruiting only.
Maybe there's a third componentlike operations or other.
What would you say is typicallythe limiter?
And my impression from my peergroup is it's 90 percent.
Sales is a limitation and then10 percent recruiting and
anything else.
What do you see in yourconsulting practice?
Diane Prince (31:58):
Yeah, that is so interesting because people do
have different skills.
But yeah, it is most of thepeople that come to me have biz
dev challenges.
It is mostly challenges and bizdev.
But I would also say to yourpoint about the e-myth letting
go empowering other people.
Now, I used to be a terriblemanager and most people are.
(32:18):
I mean, most people aren'ttrained to manage and so I
really had to learn, like I hadto get tools to help me, and
that's one thing that I hope afew people are.
You know, some people are likeI'm a great manager, I cannot
recruit or do sales and I loveleading people.
You know there's anunderstanding to everybody's
(32:39):
different Sure.
Everybody's completely different, has different skill sets.
I think that personality israrer and there's personalities
that will build and scale andrun a mature business and they
have that ability to work withthe company and adapt and change
.
I'm not one of those people.
You know I build and then Ilike to get out.
(32:59):
But yeah, I would say that bizdev is definitely a lion's share
of the challenges.
Pete Newsome (33:08):
There's tens of thousands of staffing companies.
So this is a general question,of course, right, because, to
your point, every situation isunique.
Is a general question, ofcourse, right, because, to your
point, every situation is unique.
But how frequently do you thinkit's the people versus the
process?
When you go in and look atsomeone, look at a new
organization, a lot of peopleinherently don't like change.
(33:28):
We know that.
Especially successful peopleare successful to some degree,
right.
Even change is hard.
As an employee, we know that.
I think owners who hire you areprobably more willing to do
whatever it takes.
Diane Prince (33:41):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (33:42):
Or they wouldn't hire you in the first place,
right, they know what they'regetting into, they need your
advice, but how frequently is itthe people versus the process
that's the problem.
Diane Prince (33:51):
It's often the people and you know so.
Sometimes people do hire me andit takes them like a year to
want to be willing to change,which is pretty interesting.
Pete Newsome (34:03):
Why would they hire you in the first place?
Diane Prince (34:06):
They know that changes need to be made, but
everybody's different, likethere's some people that like
instantly.
They're like OK, I'm doing this, you know, and this is working,
but some things I don't know.
Just everybody's different andhears things when they need to.
But yeah, one thing that I seeas common is having the wrong
people who are mediocreperformers, right, and that sets
(34:33):
a culture and we're a servicebusiness and our business is our
people.
Like that's how good we are isthe people that we have.
Pete Newsome (34:41):
And that's it.
Diane Prince (34:42):
And being.
Another common thing is beingafraid to fire people and it's.
You know, that's when we dothat and there's a couple of key
roles that I help people to putinto their businesses.
So, to answer your question,too, about processes, so that
was a really key role for us isonce we hired an ops person.
(35:04):
That was key because he waslike, he was super detailed and
that was a skill that we didn'thave.
So it's people, but the peoplethen also putting in the
processes, and people have tofollow the processes.
And you also have to askyourself, when it is the people,
you have to ask yourself too,like is it me?
So there's, like you know, ifyou have this from EOS, do they
(35:24):
get it?
Do they want it and can they doit?
And if they don't get it, who'sfault?
Is it your fault or that?
Are they motivated?
You can't motivate someone morethan they're motivated for
themselves.
Do they want it?
Do they want the job and dothey have the capacity to do it?
And again, is that you or themLike, have you provided them
with what they need or is itjust somebody that just can't do
the job?
Pete Newsome (35:43):
Isn't it ultimately the owner's fault,
regardless right Fault forletting that persist, if nothing
else?
Diane Prince (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
You know it's always theowner's fault, so it's it's.
I mean, do you think you can?
Pete Newsome (35:55):
hire.
You think you could avoid thatbeing in that scenario by by
hiring better, which is which isironic that I'm asking that.
Right, we're in the staffingindustry and I tell companies,
clients, prospects, look, we'regoing to do everything we can up
front, but you don't know whatsomeone's like till you live
with them, right, you can haveall the panel interviews, you
(36:18):
can stretch it out, you can have10 rounds, whatever, whatever,
right, but you're not reallygoing to know.
I think there's a certain levelof assessment you can do on the
front end.
We know that.
Do you think you can?
Is that something you getinvolved in where you teach
people how to hire better?
Hire for the right thing, soyou're not having to fire
someone quickly?
Diane Prince (36:37):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
With some of my clients I evendo one of the rounds of the
interview which is usually 15minutes because they have really
specific questions I ask themand I, like, I'll find things
out.
Yeah, like you know, her goalis to you know.
Did you know that she just gotan LLC for her trucking business
yesterday?
Pete Newsome (36:54):
and that's what she wants to do, like that's.
Diane Prince (36:56):
You know they're like no, I didn't even know that
.
So, yeah, it's so.
I heard a long time ago thatwe're typically agency
recruiters, like we're typicallybad at hiring for ourselves
because we're different, Likewe're used to hiring people like
our product and we're kind oflike selling them.
You know so we kind of looksometimes, look at the good in
the person, selling them.
(37:17):
You know so we kind of look at,sometimes, look at the good in
the person.
But yeah, putting togethersystems really does help, but at
the same time you, like yousaid, you don't really know
until you have that.
But there's, there's certainthings especially, you know, I
have some pretty strong opinionsabout for agency recruiting
Most people get wrong.
Should I share a couple of themwith?
Pete Newsome (37:38):
you Sure yeah, absolutely.
Diane Prince (37:41):
So I mean one is they have to.
So one thing I ask is I'll askthem to rank a few words.
This is for a recruiter who'son commission, for agency right
who's on commission, or you knowpart of their part of their set
.
You know usually like abouthalf of their on target earnings
as commission.
So I always ask like, rankthese words in order, and one of
the words is compensation.
(38:01):
If they don't say compensationis number one, I want to know
why.
Pete Newsome (38:06):
Right.
Diane Prince (38:07):
Flexibility, work life balance, that's it's not
going to be the role.
You know.
Nothing is wrong with that, youknow.
And I want them to answerhonestly and the only answer
that I will accept if I say Inoticed you didn't say
compensation in your first two,because career growth is okay.
I think too, if thecompensation's second and if
they say, well, that's because Iknow I'll earn a lot of
(38:28):
commission and base salary isnot that important, I'm like
that's the only acceptableanswer because it's very
different.
Agency recruiting is reallydifferent.
And also I think it's a mistaketo only look at people with
recruiting backgrounds.
You know, I mean I think youcame from tech, my partner came
from title insurance and wehired recruiters who had worked
(38:52):
in our niche.
We did not hire recruiters fora long time, like we only hired
people that had worked in theniche, where that we were, that
we were where we were placingpeople there's.
I mean, look at, like everybodytrains differently, most
companies don't train well, andthen we're hiring people that
just because they have beenrecruiters and it I would rather
(39:12):
hire somebody that has thesense of urgency and is
motivated and you can train them.
And especially and this might bean unpopular thing to say, but
it's very different people whoare recruiting in-house than
agency.
And I wouldn't.
I do not hire in less.
So now agency people, I do helppeople from talent start their
(39:36):
own businesses.
That's different.
But agency recruiters, who arehiring people from talent, are
in-house recruiters because theyneed a job.
It's a completely differentskill set, it is mindset.
It's not even you know, it'sthe skill set, but the mindset
is completely different.
Pete Newsome (39:55):
Do you think that's unpopular?
I don't think that's anunpopular opinion.
I think it is a differentmindset.
Right, the skill set on paper,the job, may be similar, but the
motivation for doing it and thepurpose and the reason and how
you make money, I mean that'sall very different.
So to me it's an entirelydifferent role really.
I mean it has the same titleAgain, you're doing, going
(40:17):
through the same motions, kindof, but why you're doing it is
vastly different.
And when you're the, when you'reinternal, you have just a
different set of considerationsall day, every day, and one's
not better than the other and Idon't think one.
I think the person would wantthat, would thrive in staffing.
You know, an agency would notbe happy in talent acquisition
(40:39):
and vice versa.
Diane Prince (40:40):
Yeah.
And some people will say oninterviews, when I ask what
their career goal?
That's why it was my firstquestion what are your career
goals?
And some people say I want toeventually go into in-house
recruiting I'm like, well, thisisn't the job for you.
This business is not going tobe a stepping stone for you.
Pete Newsome (40:55):
You're not going to be happy right, whether you
could do it or not, and you havethe skills.
You're not going to enjoy it.
You're not going to wake upevery day having that sales
mentality which is just vastlydifferent than and that's what
agencies need.
Diane Prince (41:07):
That's what we need is we need people that are
going to wake up every day andwant to kill it.
Pete Newsome (41:18):
So hiring for recruiting is one thing for
sales, you know, for biz dev, doyou like?
This comes up a lot when I'mwhen I'm talking to my friends
in the industry how long do youlet a salesperson go until you
decide this person's not goingto work out like what's the time
?
How long do you let it gobefore you need to see results?
Diane Prince (41:34):
Oh gosh, that's a good question.
I mean, I do like the 360 model, so I like it because you know,
but I think some people though,I think in a 360 model.
If you have to recognize,though, that some people are
going to be stronger at BizDevand others recruiters, and don't
try to make them equal in bothsides, I don't know.
(41:58):
I think it depends.
I don't know that's a goodquestion.
I don't know if I have like aspecific length of time.
It's tough.
I think hiring salespeople isone of the toughest things.
Pete Newsome (42:08):
It is, it is and that's where, as we talked about
a few minutes ago, I think somany companies are looking for
that answer and feel that thator at least feel that that's
that would be the solution totheir problems.
And I think they're rightbecause of my own experience
where, if I had a formula Icould I'm very confident that we
can identify potentialrecruiters.
We generally hire people who'venever worked in recruiting.
(42:30):
There's some exceptions, butfirst, second job out of school,
sometimes first, but just theright mindset, as you described
earlier.
Diane Prince (42:38):
So we're very much on the same page there well,
you do have a business formula,though, because that's what
that's what I hear a lot is.
People think like that, but sowhat I believe is that you start
out with you doing it yourselfright.
You do this because you have tofit, you have to know, because
a common mistake is people hirelead gen companies.
They hire outside salespeoplewho just don't work.
(43:00):
That doesn't work.
It happens a lot.
So I think it's reallyimportant to find, and so if
you're, say, if you're juststarting out in your agency, or
even now, like where you're at,you look back at clues and
things that have worked.
So if you're a new agency owner, you're starting out as, maybe
as a solopreneur, but you knowyou want to scale then look at
everything as.
Treat every moment like you'retraining somebody else.
(43:21):
Treat every call like OK, thisis I'm creating a sales process
and these are, these are waysthat you can sell, this is what
I'm creating a sales process andthese are ways that you can
sell.
This is what's worked.
Also, I was in between.
I told you I've gotten out ofstaffing a few times and I was
in the startup world and I washead of sales for two different
startups and for one of them.
What we did was and I didn't,it was like content thought
(43:44):
leadership.
I knew nothing about the space,so I was in charge of selling
and then building a sales teamand the founders were these two
Harvard grads that wereabsolutely brilliant.
So what I did first and you cando this in staffing so I just
listened, I brought people intocalls.
(44:04):
So I was basically a BDR bizdev rep and I'd bring people in,
put them on a call with thefounder.
I was on the call, I listened, Ijust furiously took notes and
talking points.
It's like, okay, she said this,she said this.
And then the more calls that Iwas on, the more things that I
heard her repeat and I'm like,okay, okay.
And then finally I'm like, okay, I can do this now.
(44:32):
So this is a way to kind of see, like if you look back at clues
, what's worked for you, youknow.
Then bring someone on who'slike, okay, I'm going to be on
calls with Pete, listen to whatPete says.
Okay, if you have someone smartwho's motivated and they keep
on listening, they keep onhearing those talking points,
you know, so they getcomfortable because the more
that you, the more confident,the more that you know the
product, the better you're goingto sell.
(44:53):
Have you read the Way of theWolf by Jordan Belford?
Pete Newsome (44:57):
I know.
I mean I know his story, but Ihaven't read his book.
Diane Prince (45:00):
You might like that and he talks about that and
how important product knowledgeis.
So I would have him on yourcalls like calls like listen,
listen, listen, you know.
Pete Newsome (45:10):
Yeah, it's, that's so true.
I mean, I, I, I have thought ofit and described it over the
years as having arrows in yourquiver right To to draw from.
I've seen every scenario dozens, if not hundreds, of times.
There's no question that'sgoing to surprise me.
I, I, and and and that's justme being in the role for a long
(45:32):
time.
But if you're new, you can getstumped easily.
You don't know how to respond.
You're thinking too much if youwill, versus just being in the
moment.
And it's very obvious, I think,to whoever you're talking to if
you're not really justlistening and then really
hearing and under comprehendingwhat they're saying and then
responding accordingly.
Diane Prince (45:51):
And.
Pete Newsome (45:51):
I don't know of a way to teach that other than
hands on, like you described.
I think that's really.
It's hard to do, it's timeconsuming, to say the least, but
I think that is a secret, ifyou will to to success in
training Someone is.
Just let them see.
I've been through that.
It's been a couple of years,quite a few years, but with one
(46:14):
rep in particular who we hired,and I just remember she would
say repeat phrases that I said,but not really in the right
context.
And then she would see how theywould be the response you'd get.
And she worked it out and ittook her months of being pretty
awful, to be quite frank, untilshe wasn't anymore Just like I
(46:35):
was awful.
And then, once it clicked, itwas just a beautiful thing to
see and she just grew so fastand had so much success.
I wish she was still here.
I mean, she has six kids nowand has no time for this
business anymore.
Diane Prince (46:54):
But yeah, higher I think you know in that, in that
.
So it sounds like you hadsomebody then who had that
tenacity to keep on doing andpracticing and then the the kind
of the mental common sense toput things together.
Cause then also question, likeI have scripts in my program
like asking questions and if youapproach it also like with the
curiosity instead of pitching,because when you go into a call
that you're like knowing you'rethinking you're going to pitch
(47:17):
it doesn't, it typically doesn'twork.
You want to go in, you knowthat's like you want to go in
just understanding what theirproblem is and then you can
decide how you can solve theirproblem and they have to see you
as a solution, right, solvingtheir problem.
Pete Newsome (47:33):
Yeah, that's.
That's the thing that I thinksalespeople need to.
If you're going to be asalesperson, you have to learn
is that success comes fromasking questions and not from
not from talking and sharingyour opinions on things.
Yeah, I was thinking back nowto to this reps experience and
and she was in sales for threeor four months before she went
out on maternity leave for thefirst time and I don't think
she'd closed anything in thattimeframe and so the whole time
(47:56):
she was gone, I was thinkingabout the conversation I needed
to have when she came back and Isaid, hey, would you like to go
back in recruiting for a littlewhile, learn more?
And she's like, absolutely not,I'm going to figure this out.
Diane Prince (48:05):
You know that tenacity and grit was in place
but you can't teach that Mostpeople give up way too early in
sales.
Yeah, and what you said becausethat goes back to the question
that you asked how long do yougive somebody?
And then, like what you justsaid about what had that
person's attitude that says,that says it all.
Because if it's, if it's 90days in and they haven't closed
(48:29):
or brought calls, you know youalso want to like, have have
little successes, ways that theyknow like it could be if you
bring in, you know, 10 contractsor whatever, like little things
or get calls, like littlethings, that they can have
success along the way.
That will help motivate them sothat they know that they can,
they feel some success.
But also, you know, 90 days, in, 45 days, in, whatever.
(48:51):
Hey, you know you're you'rediscussing this.
They haven't had much action.
You can tell if they're likewell, it's the market, no, but
if they're like, is it me?
You know, is it them, are theygoing to take it?
Well, maybe I could try this,maybe it's because I did this,
then I'd give them more of achance.
Pete Newsome (49:14):
But if they're blaming other external,
circumstances or whatever, theydon't have a growth mindset?
No, not at all.
All right, diane.
One more question and I'm goingto let you go who should
contact you?
What kind of firm, what kind ofhelp if it's needed?
Should someone reach out to youto solve for them, and who's
your profile prospect?
Diane Prince (49:32):
Yeah, agency owners who are going through
hurdles.
I work with a lot of solofounders.
I also work with some teams andI am a sounding board.
I provide a neutral third partyso it can be more mature
agencies that are that need,they want an executive coach,
they want they, they realizethey, they, they understand
there's probably value intalking about things and getting
(49:54):
other ideas and opinions,helping to see their blind spots
.
And then also I work with brandnew agency owners who are just
starting out and help them, helpthem.
So there's, I guess there'sthree things.
So sometimes it's people fromtalent, it's other people who
are starting out recruitingagencies.
And then also some of thepeople in my program have been,
have had permanent placementbusinesses for years, even since
(50:16):
the eighties, and now they'relooking at adding staff,
temporary staffing.
So that's another, that'sanother group that I serve.
Pete Newsome (50:24):
Wonderful.
Well, I we've spent enough timetogether over the past hour to
know that whoever you work withis going to benefit.
I feel very confident from that.
It's just you know, when you'vebeen in this business as long
as I have, you just know whensomeone gets it and has the
depth of knowledge, and youclearly have that to a very,
very significant degree.
So I really appreciate yourtime today.
This has been an absolutepleasure.
Diane Prince (50:51):
Yeah, it's awesome , ty.
We've been enjoying.
I've been enjoying talking toyou on.
Pete Newsome (50:53):
LinkedIn and commenting and stuff, so it's
great to sit down and spend thistime with you Awesome.
Well, diane Prince, thank youso much for today and look
forward to talking soon.
Bye, pete.
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