September 15, 2023 • 40 mins
After an interview, have you ever wondered if you uncovered the candidate's true potential? Wouldn't it be great if you could transform your interviewing skills to ensure you're hiring the best person for each role? Welcome to The Hire Calling Podcast, where Pete Newsome and Ricky will show you how to do just that!
They are flipping the script on traditional interviewing practices and focusing on a conversational 80/20 ratio, where the candidate does most of the talking. To truly understand the candidate's capabilities, they will guide you through the art of asking the right questions. You'll also better understand the delicate balance between structured and unstructured interviews. In addition to addressing bias and discrimination in the hiring process head-on, Pete and Ricky advise conducting interviews legally and fairly.
As the episode concludes, they discuss soft skills, cultural fit, and hiring for attitude over skill set alone. Lastly, Ricky and Pete share how feedback can be a powerful tool for improving your interviewing process. For every HR professional, hiring manager, or recruiter looking to improve their hiring process, tune in, soak up insights, and revolutionize your interviewing skills!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:01):
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and I'm joinedtoday by Ricky Baez, once again
, and we are your source for allthings hiring, staffing and
recruiting.
Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez (00:11):
I'm doing great, Pete.
So beautiful week, beautifulmonth, happy football season.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
We're in Florida.
My seminols are doing great.
It's a happy time.
Ricky Baez (00:22):
Not if you're a New York fan.
Right, you got.
You got the bills, you got thejets and you have the Giants,
who all disappointed their fansin the same field in 24 hours.
So I don't know about that.
Pete Newsome (00:33):
Well, sorry for that, but you know it's college
football in here in Florida,ricky.
So we're asked yeah, we don'tcare about that stuff up north,
but what we do care about issomething that is on,
unfortunately, too many people'smind today, which is
interviewing.
And While we like when peopleare getting new jobs, new
opportunities, for the rightreasons, unfortunately there's a
(00:54):
lot of people looking on themarket not by choice right now.
I'm kind of a crazy time outthere when you say oh,
absolutely, because there's.
Ricky Baez (01:02):
There is a wealth of information, and whether that
information is good or bad, it'sreally hard to decipher.
And that's what we're here tomake sure you get the right
information when you go out tostart interviewing people and
you know it's just starting.
To make sure you find the righttalent for your organization.
So we are here, pete, to setthe record straight.
Pete Newsome (01:20):
There's a lot of seasoned, experienced candidates
on the market and sometimesthey have to interview with new
managers, new recruiters, peoplewho Don't have the same level
of experience.
So interview training issomething that doesn't get
talked about a lot, but we'regoing to talk about it today.
We're going to talk about howto conduct a successful
interview, what should be onyour mind, what you should think
(01:42):
about, especially if you're newas an interviewer.
It's an important thing tounderstand.
Ricky Baez (01:47):
Absolutely it.
It definitely is.
You know just how a candidatehas to prepare for this
interview.
The interviewer has to preparein the same manner for a
different type of an approach.
So, absolutely it's so.
So the role of the interviewer,pete, what, what it's?
So a lot of people step intothis role, into the managerial,
whether it's a recruiter orWhether it's somebody who it's,
(02:09):
it's the hiring authority.
They step into that role andthey start to get nervous, right
?
I mean, do you remember thefirst time you had to interview?
How nervous with you.
Pete Newsome (02:18):
I was very nervous and I do remember it because I
was 23 years old, I was recentlyout of school, at my first
recruiting job and I had tointerview someone who was older
than my father and that Wasreally intimidating for me Until
I read it was, for a while,stayed that way as a young
professional until I realized itwasn't about my age, it was
(02:38):
about how I presented myself,how I conducted the interview
session, and so, as I becamecomfortable with that and had
confidence that I knew what todo, the age sort of fell away.
It wasn't a factor, but yeah,early on it was intimidating.
Ricky Baez (02:53):
It.
I remember the first time Iinterviewed for it for for human
resources and the interviewerwas more nervous than I was, and
I Sweat, pete, you know, whenI'm on the spot I sweat.
They were sweating like crazy.
So what we're gonna talk abouthere is give those interviewers,
the, the confidence to know thedifferent steps they need to
take to make sure that theycreate a really good experience
(03:15):
for the candidates.
So let's get going.
Pete Newsome (03:17):
Yeah, I mean look, you represent your company and
yourself.
That brand I mean how youbehave and act and you treat
that individual is is going toResonate then and later on down
the road.
The person is going to rememberso, even if they're a great
candidate, if you don't conductthe interview Well, they may
(03:37):
question whether they want towork for your organization.
So let's start with somemistakes they're pretty common
for for new interviewers andthings that everyone can avoid.
Ricky Baez (03:47):
Okay, so let's start talk.
Well, let's start with the,with the big one right
Over-reliant on your gut feeling, right?
So, as a Candidate, as it as aninterviewer, as a recruiter,
you have to rely on theinformation that the candidate
is giving you right, and thatinformation, obviously, you have
to decide whether that's a it'sa credible information or not,
(04:09):
but you cannot over rely on yourgut feeling.
Now, pete, I am gonna say thisright, my gut feeling, almost a
hundred percent of the time, iscorrect, but I can rely on it.
I need the documentation toback it up.
So, always, always, always,make a decision and rely on the
documentation, information thatthe candidate gives you to make
(04:30):
a decision for or for thatcandidate.
So gut feelings is not a good,a good reason to Hire or not
hire somebody.
Pete Newsome (04:41):
I agree with you there.
I agree with you there, let's.
Let's go on to another one then.
How about bias?
Now, that word and we'veprobably talked about this on
air before, but that word isusually a negative, and you and
I, so I don't want to just focuson that, I want to talk about
your discrimination and I'mgonna let you, you do most of
(05:01):
the talking in this section,because you are our HR
professional.
Let's, can you separate biasfrom discrimination?
Just briefly.
Ricky Baez (05:10):
Correct.
So Discrimination is what thelaw has, has determined what is
illegal or not illegal.
Now this, so let me pause forit quick.
The word discrimination soundsbad.
Right, as a recruiter, though.
Right, our job is to decide whois the right person for the
role or not.
Where discrimination comes intoplay, when the law comes into
(05:33):
play, is whether we do itlegally or not.
Right, because, at the end ofthe day, if you're interviewing
10 people, you only need five.
There's five people who are notgonna get that job.
So we just made a determinationbased on those, those
Attributes.
But when the bias comes in andI keep saying it because it
sounds like my last name is whenyou hire somebody Based on your
(05:56):
previous experience.
Whether you hire somebody youlike and they don't have the
proper credentials to do the job, or you have somebody who has
the credentials to do the job,you just don't like them, that
bias me does not need to beincluded in that deciding factor
, and the Discrimination pieceit what it does.
(06:17):
It guides you to help you not toask illegal questions, and Pete
is very easy to fall into thattrap.
Right?
I'll give you a great example.
One of the things that I do tocoach interviewers is to create
an environment where thecandidate is comfortable, right.
So you, you do some chitchat,right, they come in.
How was traffic?
How was this?
(06:37):
What about that game last night?
You start asking those kinds ofquestions the more comfortable
they get.
That's breed, those arebreeding grounds for questions.
You should not be asking right,because next the next thing you
know you could be asking well,I see here, you went to Puerto
Rico, are you from there?
Is that how you learn Spanish?
When do you graduate highschool?
You're gonna fall into a lot ofdifferent traps that we have to
(07:00):
look into.
Pete Newsome (07:01):
So it's safe to say then, as a way of thinking
about it, that just because it'sa question that's appropriate
in the outside world, if youmeet someone in your, in your,
in your personal life, doesn'tmean that it's okay in your
private life or in the end I'msorry it doesn't mean that it's
okay professionally in aninterview setting specifically.
Ricky Baez (07:20):
That is correct and and folks, at the end of the day
, as as the interviewer, if youask Non-relevant questions, if
he has non-relevant questionsand the person does not get the
job, you're giving that personsome kind of credibility in
whatever idea they may have Into.
They didn't get the job becauseof the illegal questions that
were asked.
(07:40):
Okay, so we, it's you.
You just have to make sure thatyou stop yourself.
You prevent yourself in thatorganization to fall into that
trap.
Pete Newsome (07:48):
So we will talk too much about what those
questions are.
Right now We'll link to theEEOC's website.
That spells it out very clearlyand there's a great read, by
the way.
Yeah, and well, there's there's, there's some little videos on
there that will.
That will help and it's reallyeasy to understand what the
protected classes are in whatyou need to avoid.
(08:09):
But, ricky, we can Discriminateagainst some things, can't we?
We can be biased against somethings, can we not like?
How about laziness?
Can we?
Can we be biased against that?
Ricky Baez (08:20):
Absolutely somebody comes in right and they just
don't care about the job.
Everything they say just tellsyou they're lazy, right?
Absolutely I'm not gonna hirethat person right, that person
is not gonna be on my team.
And you know, if, if againsomebody comes in and they show
you that they do just enough notto get fired, it's not somebody
that I want on my team and I'mjust not gonna hire them.
(08:42):
Right, and they can call, Imean they some people may call
that discrimination and I meanI'm gonna go on a limb and say,
yeah, it just happens to belegal.
Pete Newsome (08:51):
That's right.
That's right, and you have toknow the difference.
That's really what this isabout and that comes down to
preparation.
So let's move on to to talkabout that a little bit, because
Companies, employers, shouldn'tthrow someone into the fire who
isn't prepared, who hasn't hadthat exposure to the EEOC
guidelines, because it's an easymistake to make with good
(09:13):
intentions.
You described a perfectscenario.
You're talking about where youwere from the weekend.
I know you recently traveled toPuerto Rico.
I know you're from there.
If I asked you too manyquestions about that, it may be
innocent and it may beappropriate again in our
personal lives, but I I mightget in trouble for that.
I could very well get introuble for that.
(09:34):
So we have to prepare to avoidthose things.
That's the best way for it notto happen.
Ricky Baez (09:39):
Well, and also, it's just because it's the
organization thinks they'redoing something good, it doesn't
mean it's not against the law.
So let me give you a quickexample.
Pete, years ago I was doing a.
I was helping an organizationdo an interview.
They wanted to hire a forkliftdriver.
I was on the panel with threeother interviewers.
(09:59):
This forklift driver candidatecame in.
It was obvious she was pregnant.
Right, she it's.
It was very obvious.
The hiring manager next to me,as soon as you start, no, you
know what?
We're not going to do this.
And I'm looking at him and Ikicked them so hard under the
desk.
Hey, because he did not want tointerview her because she was
(10:20):
pregnant.
And the rationale he gave islike, ricky, I don't want her to
get hurt, right, I don't wanther or the baby to get.
This is a tough job.
And what I'm telling him isthat's irrelevant.
That is, that is an illegalreason Not to continue with the
interview process.
Now, his heart was in the rightplace because he genuinely
believed he was doing the rightthing.
(10:42):
Nonetheless, still an illegalthing to do.
Oh, trust me, we finished thatinterview.
She got hired because she wasthe best candidate for that role
, right?
So those are the things that wehave to be careful with as
hiring authorities.
Pete Newsome (10:55):
So what else can you do to prepare for an
interview?
So we have to make sure thosethings are in place and you have
to have the knowledge as theinterviewer.
What about understanding thejob description Right now?
In this scenario, you just gavethe person understood that
there was some physical riskassociated with it, but I think
a lot of times a can't, a commoncan it complaint that I have is
the interview takes place or Ina common complaint that I hear,
(11:18):
rather the interview takesplace and the interviewer is
unprepared To really understandwhat the job is about and what
they should be asking about interms of qualifying the
individual who's there tointerview for it.
That's a terrible experiencethat to go through for that
candidate.
Ricky Baez (11:36):
So correct.
So it for me.
What I'm thinking about is acandidate experience.
I prepared, I, I.
I drove the actual routes.
I bother my neighbor to help meinterview and videotape me.
I went and got my power suit.
I prepared, I get to theinterview early, I'm did
everything right and the personis five minutes late to the
(11:56):
interview.
You can still see the, theSubstains on your shirt, because
they just finished eating lunch.
They're reviewing the, theresume.
It looks unprepared and from myperspective from the candidates
perspective I start thinkingthis is their best foot forward
and this is how they come inacross.
Folks, you have to be carefulwhat type of of of culture you
(12:21):
project.
So what do you do if you knowyou have an interview at 12 noon
?
That means way before 12 noon.
You should review the resume,know who's coming in Already,
have comments and questions ondifferent parts of the resume
that you have questions on.
So Reviewing the resume at thebeginning of the interview, it's
(12:42):
just not a good look.
You want to come across thatyou've done this before, you
prefer it and you're ready foraction.
That's testing the Candidate.
This organization has theirstuff together.
Pete Newsome (12:53):
So know the job, know the candidate and then know
what you're going to ask.
That's the next thing.
They have a strategy for theinterview.
Whether you're alone or with agroup, don't rely on others.
If you're in a group, planahead of time, have a meeting
about it, have a conversationand Be organized.
That that's really what we'retalking about and that's that's
what preparation is, and if youare Prepared, it'll go smoothly.
(13:17):
You'll really be in position toget to come away with a very
good assessment of whether thecan it's a good fit, and that's
that's the objective, ultimately, of the time that you're
spending.
Ricky Baez (13:28):
That's right.
Just just train, train ahead oftime and look, I get it, we're
busy.
I completely understand, right,because if you're especially
right now, pete, a lot oforganizations are short staff at
the bottom of the barrel and inthe middle of the barrel, right
, so you have a middle linemanager who's like oh god, not
only am, I am do not have enoughtime in the week to do my job.
(13:50):
Now I got to interview fivepeople.
We completely get it.
You've got to make time.
You have to make time becauseyour lack of resources really
isn't the candidates problem,right, and the the candidate
shouldn't suffer because of thatand the candidate will.
Pete Newsome (14:06):
The candidate will know They'll, they'll sense it,
they'll sniff it out and it'sgonna be very obvious.
And just don't put anyonethrough that.
It's easily avoided withcandidates today, have options,
just saying they do and they'll,they'll, they'll consider that
in terms of when they want tomove forward.
So let's, let's move on toanother section now.
This one's particularlyinteresting to me because I've
(14:29):
always liked to approachinterviews in an unstructured
way.
Maybe that's the professionalsales person in me just can't
get away from letting theConversation guide the path that
I go down.
That's always how I'veapproached sales, where I'm
listening and then responding.
But that's very different thana structured interview, and
there's pros and cons to both.
(14:50):
Talk about that for a second,do you?
How dangerous is anunstructured interview?
I, given everything we justtalked about in terms of
preparation, I'm always prepared, but I like to let the
conversation take its own course.
Ricky Baez (15:06):
Me too, and so.
So, yeah, this could be a wholedifferent show there, pete,
because I have a lot to to sayabout this one.
So let's talk aboutunstructured interviews, right?
That means that you don't havea set of questions, you just go
with the conversation, and thedanger in that is is that you
run the risk of asking Oneperson a different set of
(15:26):
questions than a differentperson.
So how can you possibly make adecision on the skillset needed
for the job if you're askingdifferent questions to get
different answers, right?
So it's the best thing to do isto make sure you have the same
set of questions For everycandidate that comes across.
Now, obviously, I don't wantthe set of questions to Dominate
(15:49):
the conversation, because ifthe candidate says something
that's really exciting, you wantto go down that road,
definitely do so, but at thevery least, you got to make sure
the core questions remain thesame.
So now go ahead.
Well, I was gonna say nowYou're asking somebody who's
unconventional in how he doesinterviews.
(16:09):
Because I do not like to conductinterviews in the office, pete,
at all.
I do not.
I like to go somewhere wherethe candidate is comfortable.
So I like to go to Chili's.
Right, I go to Chili's back.
When I did this back in thepast, we used to always go to
Chili's.
My boss was always upsetbecause my P card was through
the roof whenever it wasinterview season.
(16:30):
But here's the thing, from fromfrom a, from a hiring
authorities perspective.
If you create an environmentthat the candidate is really
comfortable, you're going to getsome amazing pieces of
information.
Because they're comfortable,they'll tell you exactly what
they're excited about.
More importantly, they tell youwhat they don't like.
(16:50):
And sometimes you do it in away that you're like I'm glad
I'm finding this out now.
Then six months down the road,so I can make a decision now.
So that's how I do it, buteverybody's different.
Pete Newsome (17:02):
Well, and that's not practical for every scenario
too.
We know that.
I mean, it's ideal.
It'd be great if we could siton a couch, have a meal, just
spend significant time together.
But a lot of times thestructure and the time
restraints don't really allowfor that.
But for certain positions,where it's a look, I'm just
(17:24):
gonna say this some hires aremore unique than others.
So if you're hiring anexecutive level professional
where there's very fewcandidates who are qualified,
very few who could meet thecriteria, that kind of
investment of time is practical.
But if you're hiring for 20positions to fill a call center
role, let's say probably notgoing to take them all to
(17:47):
Chili's.
Ricky Baez (17:48):
Absolutely not Just having a big job fair in the
call center, like I've done inthe past, and have a petting zoo
, which I've done in the past.
Pete Newsome (17:55):
Well, we don't necessarily recommend that, but
it could be fun, maybe on theweekend.
So, once the interview takesplace, talk about the right
questions, and so we suggesteveryone plan.
But what does that mean?
Really?
There's so many differentstyles of interviewing and
different routes you can go down.
One of the things that Ibelieve is of particular
(18:16):
importance and you just broughtit up, which is why I wanted to
talk about it next is behavioralinterview questions.
How do you?
Just because someone looks goodon paper doesn't mean they're
going to be the right fit.
So what's your thought on theimportance of those?
Ricky Baez (18:31):
So I'm really careful in crafting my questions
because I don't want to askquestions that are answered in
yes or no and I don't want toask questions in what would you
do in this situation, becausewhat would you do doesn't tell
me what you've done in the past.
The questions I like to ask istell me a time where ABC
(18:53):
happened and where ABC happened,what was your response, what
did you do to that and what wasthe outcome?
That tells me that kind of anemployee, this person is going
to be in the same scenario, samesituation that they're going to
experience here.
So can people lie?
Of course they can, but if youask, tell me a time when you did
(19:14):
A, b and C.
That gives you a more closerperspective into how he or she
would handle that situation inyour organization.
So stay away from yes or noquestions.
Make sure that you askquestions, behavior questions,
of what they've done in the past.
You're going to end up in amuch better position to make a
decision to hire the rightperson.
Pete Newsome (19:34):
And that decision to hire the right person.
To me, it's such a meaningfulphrase because it's not about
whether the person can do thejob, it's not about whether
they're qualified for the job,it's about whether they're going
to be good fit for the job inthe company culture and that's
something that I was talking tomy recruiting team earlier this
(19:57):
morning about where people willsay recruiting is sales and in
many ways it is.
I believe that, but not in thesense of trying to talk someone
into doing something.
Try to talk someone into takinga job just because they can do
it.
It's about whether they willwant to do it, whether they'll
be happy and satisfied doing it,and whether the company will be
(20:18):
happy and satisfied with them.
And so that is important, asthe skill set, those soft skills
, really have to come out and wehave to make sure that desires
align right what the companydesires and what the individual
desires, and I think that getslost too often.
So it's something in my opinionit's very worthy of focusing on
(20:40):
during the interview is let'ssee if we're really going to be
a match, not just on the firstday, but on day 100 and many
days beyond that.
Ricky Baez (20:51):
You said something in the past I don't know if it
was on this show or the otherone that really caught my
attention.
You said that you almost triedto talk people out of a job.
You tell them everything aboutthe job, everything about it,
everything that happens, and ifthe good, bad and the ugly and
if they're still like you knowwhat I'm in you got the right
(21:13):
person.
Pete Newsome (21:14):
Well, yeah, I mean .
So caveat to that is I wasspecifically talking about that
in terms of hiring forrecruiting and sales, because
it's a commission oriented joband it can be a challenging job
Every job can be but when peopleare your product, so to speak,
you have to be a certain kind ofperson to withstand
(21:34):
disappointment and frustrationand knowing that you're going to
.
If you just think of recruiting, if you interview, if you call
a candidate, if you see ahundred resumes that you've
sourced and you call a hundredcandidates for one job opening,
that means 99 aren't going toget the job.
Some significant percentage isprobably not going to call you
(21:59):
back.
Some who do pick up the phonearen't going to be necessarily
friendly and accommodating towhy you're calling.
And so recruiting and a salesjob and everyone knows this
about sales but recruiting isthe same way.
It's not for the faint of heart.
And so, yes, when we're hiringfor a role like that, I do try
to talk people out of the job.
But it brings up an interestingthing that I read the other day
(22:20):
.
Someone posted on LinkedIn Idon't know it wasn't someone I
know or I probably would havecalled and talked to him about
it but they said let's get awayfrom excluding candidates, let's
try to rule in candidates.
And I thought no, no, no, no,no.
That is not how you shouldrecruit.
Ricky Baez (22:37):
Yeah, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome (22:39):
It sounds nice, right.
Rainbows and puppy dog tails,whatever right, and butterflies,
I mean.
All that sounds nice like aDisney movie, but the reality is
you have to look for the thingsthat aren't on the surface.
That's what a good recruiter orinterviewer can do is let's not
just share all the positive,let's make sure this is going to
(23:02):
be, like I said, a good fit onday 100, just like we think it
is on day one, and so you haveto get underneath the surface to
really have those conversations.
That's taken us a little offtopic for today, but Is it.
Ricky Baez (23:16):
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Pete Newsome (23:18):
No, it's okay and I would say it's necessary even
to talk about the downside of ajob If you only say here's all
the good, right, let me justgive you our good traits.
Well, we don't want to besurprised with bad news later.
So you know, I'm a big believerthat bad news early is good
news.
Same thing applies in theinterview process.
Ricky Baez (23:40):
I think it's crucial .
I think it's crucial.
I think if you don't give thegood, the bad and the ugly,
you're going to run the risk ofdealing with people who will
have an issue with that sixmonths down the road, after you
spend a lot of money to onboardthem and train them.
Might as well take care of thatat the very beginning.
One more thing I want to say Iknow that we have to move on,
(24:00):
because this crafting thequestion piece is crucial, and
here's what is crucial.
Another area Depending on thenature of the job, you may have
to ask some questions that onthe face, on the surface, may
sound illegal.
A great example we talked aboutearlier how you can fall into a
trap.
(24:20):
If I just went to Puerto Rico,is that how I learned how to
speak Spanish?
What happens if you do have aposition that one of the
skillset is that you know thatyou have to know Spanish?
Do not make an assumptionwhether somebody knows Spanish
or not because of their lastname.
Do not make an assumptionbecause of that.
You have to ask in a specificmanner.
(24:40):
Don't say oh, you lived inPuerto Rico, so you have to know
Spanish.
You lived in the DominicanRepublic, you have to know
Spanish.
Now you ask everybody one ofthe main things for this job is
you have to be proficient tospeak and write Spanish.
Is that something you can do?
That's it.
That's it.
And if they say yes, you goforward.
(25:01):
If they say no, that's aknockout question, then you're
going to have to make a leftthere.
But you have to partner withhuman resources to make sure
that the right questions areasked for the right positions.
Pete Newsome (25:11):
Consistent with everything we've said so far.
Right, Make sure you knowwhat's allowed and what's not.
That is step one, prior to anyof these deeper level things,
for sure.
But let's move on.
Go to another one.
Let's talk about activelistening a little bit,
responding and reacting to whatthe candidate says.
Don't be a robot.
I don't want to dwell on thisone too much but a good
(25:32):
interviewer listens and responds.
They don't just have a cannedset of questions and you may
need to change your course alittle bit during the interview
conversation.
Ricky Baez (25:44):
I'm a firm believer, Pete, that in an interview,
once you do the introductionsand you explain what the job is
all about, anything after that,80% of the conversation should
be coming from the candidate and20% should be coming from the
hiring authority.
I mean, I'm a big believer inthat.
Do you share that samesentiment or do you have a
different ratio?
Pete Newsome (26:03):
I do.
I mean, certainly at thebeginning of the interview.
I want to hear from thecandidate, because once you
start talking as the interviewer, that's going to skew the
conversation and the answersthat would have otherwise come
from the candidate.
You want those to be natural,so you don't want to say early
in the interview we look forpeople who think ABC or ACT, abc
(26:27):
in every scenario, whateverthat might be.
We look for aggressive people,or we look for people who are,
who love working as a team, forexample, right.
And then if someone who likesbeing autonomous and really
likes solo work, if they hearthe interviewer say upfront we
are looking for people who wantto be part of a team and how
(26:49):
they spend their day.
If they need the job, they'llsay that, even if they don't
mean it.
So planning thoughts in thecandidate's head is just a bad
idea.
It won't leave too genuine,open, honest answers.
Not because the candidateintended to give answers that
weren't genuine.
(27:09):
It's because you told themthat's what you were looking for
and so of course they're goingto tell you what you want to
hear, or they I mean they mayjust get up and walk out, I mean
, but very few people do thatI've discovered.
So let the candidate do thetalking.
And then at the end, if you areconcerned about something, as
the interviewer or, in my case,as we just were talking about,
(27:33):
if I want to try to talk someoneout of something because I've
sensed that they may not be agood fit from their words, then
I will press down on thosethings at the end.
But yes, 100%, let them do thetalking upfront.
Ricky Baez (27:47):
That's right.
Okay, so we're in the same page, awesome.
Pete Newsome (27:50):
We usually are on this stuff Right.
I mean, when it comes tointerviewing, there's a certain
set of guidelines that arealmost universal in nature.
I mean, there's extremes andthere's unique things for every
job.
How you'd interview someone toplay in the NFL is different
than how you'd interview someoneto work in a call center, but
in the business world thesethings almost always are
(28:11):
universally applicable.
So let's move on to anothersection and briefly talk about
culture, fit and the importanceof that.
I think we did already, butit's on, it's kind of on the
list that we want to make surethat we do talk about the
importance of identifying softskills.
So was there anything we missedthere, ricky?
Ricky Baez (28:30):
No, it's I.
To be honest, Pete.
I got a lot of pushback on thisone because I'm a firm believer
in hiring for attitude Right.
So to me, if the person meetsthe minimum criteria of what the
job requires, but they have theright attitude for the job,
absolutely I'm going to go withthat person, versus somebody
who's just taking the mud for alack of a better term.
(28:52):
So, yes, you have to assess forsoft skills and make sure you
have a good cultural fit,because not only do you have to
hire the right person for theorganization, you have to hire
the right person to mesh withthe rest of the team they're
going to be working with.
Yeah, I mean that is animportant thing to, to to take
into account.
Pete Newsome (29:08):
It absolutely is.
I mean, the organization is theindividuals, right.
So it's not the company brand,the company name, it's, it's
those other people you you'regoing to work with.
I mean, it doesn't matter whoworks for you know ABC company,
if they work in in Europe andyou never engage with the team
in Europe.
It matters who you're workingwith locally as part of your day
(29:30):
to day life.
So that's I think that's asimportant as anything else in an
interview for the Candaceperspective, as are they going
to be happy with people theyhave to interact with every day?
Ricky Baez (29:42):
Right, yeah, Well, yeah, just just just get along
in a way that's respectful andit it there's healthy conflict,
because you do want that, youdon't want to avoid all conflict
, but they do it in a way thatit it adds value to the culture
of the organization and, at theend of the day, and that's value
to what you're selling, whetherit's a product or a service,
because, the end of the day, weare a for profit organization.
(30:03):
Most of organizations are so soyou've.
Pete Newsome (30:06):
You've conducted the interview, you've closed,
right.
What happens next?
If you're you know, sometimesan individual make a decision by
themselves, they'll havecomplete autonomy, but a lot of
times there's others involved.
I would say the vast majorityof the time.
In my experience, at least oneother person, if not more, gets
to weigh in on a candidate,maybe has to approve a hire.
(30:28):
What thoughts do you have onwhat should happen post
interview?
Ricky Baez (30:33):
So, post interview, I'm a firm believer, pete, in
letting the candidate know whatto expect from beginning to end.
That way, they are not lost inthe process.
Nine times out of 10 in aninterview process, everybody
knows what's going to happennext, except one person the
candidate.
So we need to let that personknow what is to be expected and
(30:54):
you know what, whether they getthe job or not.
I think it's really importantto ask the candidate about the
process.
How did the process go?
Do you have any feedback fromthe process?
Because you, as a hiringauthority, you're seeing this
from the hiring authority'sperspective.
That same situation is beingprocessed by somebody from a
different point of view and theyhave really good information to
(31:17):
make your profit.
Your process is just that muchbetter.
So I suggest you should havesome kind of a process to ask
for feedback and you implementthat feedback.
So ask for feedback, have somereflection and let the candidate
know what to expect next.
Pete Newsome (31:35):
I was just thinking about panel interviews
the other day because wepublished a blog about it, the
pros and cons, and one thingthat I like about panel
interviews is the.
Now, there's a lot to not likeabout panel interviews,
especially from the candidate'sperspective.
Right, most aren't fans, butwhat it does for me is it gives
the ability, it forces theability, to hear the perspective
(31:59):
of a peer, a colleague, someonefrom a different department,
someone from a different levelwithin your organization,
because we all hear the samethings, but the way we interpret
it is different.
You might see different bodylanguage and when you're
actively engaged in aconversation, like you and I are
right now, it's different thanwhen you're witnessing other
(32:21):
people exchange, be engaged in aconversation.
So you get to hear somethingdifferent.
Right, I'm thinking about whatyou're saying.
I'm also having to think abouthow I'm going to respond versus
just being an independentobserver.
And when I hear other peopleask questions in a panel
interview that I'm part of, in alot of times these questions I
wouldn't have thought to ask.
They hear something I miss.
(32:41):
So there's a lot of value thereand a surprising it's not
surprising to me anymore, butperhaps to those who haven't
been through a lot of interviews, a surprising amount of time.
One person may love a candidate.
The other person may have a lotof reasons not to like them at
all, even though they wereexposed to the same information.
Ricky Baez (33:01):
So that is when you get everybody together and you
have honest, heart-to-heartconversations on why you didn't
like that person.
Why you did like that personBecause, yes, I agree with you,
pete panel interviews I get justthe same amount of information
to hire a candidate or not hirea candidate from my peers on the
panel interview.
(33:21):
Then I do, then the actualcandidate, because you're right,
the person to my left or to myright may have seen something I
didn't see.
So that's why I love panelinterviews.
For that very same reason.
Pete Newsome (33:31):
Yeah, and it's a great way for young interviewers
to be exposed, or newinterviewers anyway to be
exposed to those with moreexperience, where they have the
ability to learn, becauseinterview training is something
that should be ongoing.
I mean, I can't think of anyexamples I probably shouldn't
say them, if I do off the top ofmy head that things that were
(33:52):
acceptable in an interview 30years ago that aren't acceptable
now, but I bet there's a prettylong list.
So if you're not trying tocontinue to improve and be part
of learning and evolving, itmight create a different kind of
problem.
So, even though really thisinterview training show that
(34:13):
we're doing today is about, wekind of by default think of new
employees, young professionals,because it's just as important,
if not even more important, toolder professionals who are more
set in their ways.
Ricky Baez (34:25):
Well, it's Pete.
It's something that I believeshould be done on an annual
basis, because there's now theway technology is evolving, the
way the work culture is evolving, and it's happening right in
front of our eyes.
You don't get to see everythingjust by working right.
You have to conduct trainingand who knows, maybe as a result
of this podcast, pete, you andI will do a webinar on this
(34:47):
right.
We already know exactly whatneeds to happen.
I've done this in the past andit works, but it's there are
different things that arehappening in the world today
that just never existed five,six years ago.
So it's crucial to conducttraining on an annual basis to
make sure your number one, your,your recruiters and your hiring
(35:08):
authorities are representingyour brand in the light in which
the culture it's, it's, it'ssupposed to be with that brand.
That's crucial you don't getsued right.
It's really easy for that tohappen these days.
Pete Newsome (35:21):
So that's right.
That's.
That's step one.
Step one don't get sued.
Step two everything else.
But no, I got it backwards.
Well, no, I think you're.
You're right.
I mean, though, in a sense youdo have to have the big elephant
in the room, so to speak, ofthe any kind of legal issue.
But we know that there's aripple effect that takes place
(35:42):
of every interaction, and you'resomeone who is such a big
believer in onboarding and howthat process starts from the
moment you engage with acandidate, and I think you're
100% right about that.
But a lot of times, theinterview is not going to go
well.
If you would have been morethan one person for one opening,
someone's going to bedisappointed, someone's going to
(36:03):
have to be told they didn't getthe job, and if you didn't
treat that individual well,intentionally or otherwise, it's
going to have a ripple effectand it's going to damage the
company's reputation.
Ricky Baez (36:18):
And you know, and not only that, pete, it's, it's
we.
Let's talk about the higher-endauthorities energy, right,
because if you interviewsomebody, let's say you
interview in five people in oneday, I guarantee your energy,
your, your enthusiasm oninterview number one, different
than interview number five,right?
So we got to make sure thatit's that you give the same
(36:41):
energy with all interviews asyou do as the first interview,
and it's hard to do, but it'snot impossible to do.
You just have to work a littlebit More.
I don't know.
Go to Starbucks after lunch,right.
Do whatever you need to dotoday to get that caffeine up,
to make sure you are showingevery candidate the same
enthusiasm, yeah, that that younormally wish show for the first
(37:04):
candidate such.
Pete Newsome (37:05):
I'm really glad you made that point Because it's
so important that, even thoughit may be your tenth interview,
it's the candidates first.
That's right.
That tenth candidate is doingit for the first time.
And If you you can't show that,even if you feel it and we all
know what that feels like thethought that I don't want to Go
do this.
(37:26):
I've done it ten times and it'sreal, I mean, it's a struggle,
is real, so to speak.
But you have to.
You have to put on a differentface.
You have to stop and bring thatenthusiasm and that's a word
that I use a lot, it's a wordthat I have great belief in in
terms of Success in and howsomeone is perceived Enthusiasm
(37:49):
and I certainly look for that incandidates.
Well, I should have the sameenthusiasm when I'm interviewing
because they took the time tobe there.
It's a huge thing in someone'slife.
Of course.
We have to take that seriouslyand give it the respect it
deserves.
And Right, you know, bring yourbest that you're obligated to
do that as an interviewer.
Ricky Baez (38:11):
That's right.
And and look, if you are aleader right now listening to
this and you have recruitersthat are that are that, that are
exposed to all these candidatesand all these situations that
we're talking about again, getthem the training.
Get it sent on this podcast,right, send them this podcast,
make sure they listen to it,because, folks, it is really
easy to step on the landmine andwe are here to make Sure you
(38:34):
navigate through those and makesure you hire the best people
for your organization.
Pete Newsome (38:38):
Trust me on that, I will die in that hill well,
let's close on that hill too,because I think that's a perfect
way to do it.
Ricky, will we do a follow-up,I think, on what happens to the
candidates who aren't selected?
What, how you, how you presentoffers?
That's its own show Postinterview, so we'll do that
later.
But next week, ricky, I thinkwe're due for Q&A.
(39:00):
We we have questions piling up.
We keep saying we're going todo it and haven't done it yet,
so can we commit right now nextweek Q&A session?
Ricky Baez (39:08):
Roger that I will be in town, I will be in the
studio.
Absolutely, that is gonnahappen.
Pete Newsome (39:12):
I love the new look.
I the studio is looking good.
It's wonderful.
I won't ask you to go back andsit in the chair, but it looks
great.
Ricky Baez (39:20):
Thank you, appreciate it.
Pete Newsome (39:22):
So so let's do that.
If you want to throw in anotherquestion, we have room for more
.
We always like getting willpick the best.
It is hire calling@4 cornerresources.
com.
We'd love to hear from you onany, any suggestions you have
for the show.
So thanks for joining and thishas been this has been a fun
(39:43):
conversation, as always, ricky.
Hopefully we we help some folksout there improve their
interview process.
Ricky Baez (39:48):
I'm sure we did, and make sure you tune in for next
week.
We we are gonna have that Q&A.
Keep your eyes open.
We might have that a leadership, that a recruitment, training,
interview and training coming upfor yourself.
Pete Newsome (39:58):
All right, stay tuned.
Have a great rest of the day.
Bye you.
You're listening to The Hire Calling Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and I'm joinedtoday by Ricky Baez, once again
, and we are your source for allthings hiring, staffing and
recruiting.
Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez (00:11):
I'm doing great, Pete.
So beautiful week, beautifulmonth, happy football season.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
We're in Florida.
My seminols are doing great.
It's a happy time.
Ricky Baez (00:22):
Not if you're a New York fan.
Right, you got.
You got the bills, you got thejets and you have the Giants,
who all disappointed their fansin the same field in 24 hours.
So I don't know about that.
Pete Newsome (00:33):
Well, sorry for that, but you know it's college
football in here in Florida,ricky.
So we're asked yeah, we don'tcare about that stuff up north,
but what we do care about issomething that is on,
unfortunately, too many people'smind today, which is
interviewing.
And While we like when peopleare getting new jobs, new
opportunities, for the rightreasons, unfortunately there's a
(00:54):
lot of people looking on themarket not by choice right now.
I'm kind of a crazy time outthere when you say oh,
absolutely, because there's.
Ricky Baez (01:02):
There is a wealth of information, and whether that
information is good or bad, it'sreally hard to decipher.
And that's what we're here tomake sure you get the right
information when you go out tostart interviewing people and
you know it's just starting.
To make sure you find the righttalent for your organization.
So we are here, pete, to setthe record straight.
Pete Newsome (01:20):
There's a lot of seasoned, experienced candidates
on the market and sometimesthey have to interview with new
managers, new recruiters, peoplewho Don't have the same level
of experience.
So interview training issomething that doesn't get
talked about a lot, but we'regoing to talk about it today.
We're going to talk about howto conduct a successful
interview, what should be onyour mind, what you should think
(01:42):
about, especially if you're newas an interviewer.
It's an important thing tounderstand.
Ricky Baez (01:47):
Absolutely it.
It definitely is.
You know just how a candidatehas to prepare for this
interview.
The interviewer has to preparein the same manner for a
different type of an approach.
So, absolutely it's so.
So the role of the interviewer,pete, what, what it's?
So a lot of people step intothis role, into the managerial,
whether it's a recruiter orWhether it's somebody who it's,
(02:09):
it's the hiring authority.
They step into that role andthey start to get nervous, right
?
I mean, do you remember thefirst time you had to interview?
How nervous with you.
Pete Newsome (02:18):
I was very nervous and I do remember it because I
was 23 years old, I was recentlyout of school, at my first
recruiting job and I had tointerview someone who was older
than my father and that Wasreally intimidating for me Until
I read it was, for a while,stayed that way as a young
professional until I realized itwasn't about my age, it was
(02:38):
about how I presented myself,how I conducted the interview
session, and so, as I becamecomfortable with that and had
confidence that I knew what todo, the age sort of fell away.
It wasn't a factor, but yeah,early on it was intimidating.
Ricky Baez (02:53):
It.
I remember the first time Iinterviewed for it for for human
resources and the interviewerwas more nervous than I was, and
I Sweat, pete, you know, whenI'm on the spot I sweat.
They were sweating like crazy.
So what we're gonna talk abouthere is give those interviewers,
the, the confidence to know thedifferent steps they need to
take to make sure that theycreate a really good experience
(03:15):
for the candidates.
So let's get going.
Pete Newsome (03:17):
Yeah, I mean look, you represent your company and
yourself.
That brand I mean how youbehave and act and you treat
that individual is is going toResonate then and later on down
the road.
The person is going to rememberso, even if they're a great
candidate, if you don't conductthe interview Well, they may
(03:37):
question whether they want towork for your organization.
So let's start with somemistakes they're pretty common
for for new interviewers andthings that everyone can avoid.
Ricky Baez (03:47):
Okay, so let's start talk.
Well, let's start with the,with the big one right
Over-reliant on your gut feeling, right?
So, as a Candidate, as it as aninterviewer, as a recruiter,
you have to rely on theinformation that the candidate
is giving you right, and thatinformation, obviously, you have
to decide whether that's a it'sa credible information or not,
(04:09):
but you cannot over rely on yourgut feeling.
Now, pete, I am gonna say thisright, my gut feeling, almost a
hundred percent of the time, iscorrect, but I can rely on it.
I need the documentation toback it up.
So, always, always, always,make a decision and rely on the
documentation, information thatthe candidate gives you to make
(04:30):
a decision for or for thatcandidate.
So gut feelings is not a good,a good reason to Hire or not
hire somebody.
Pete Newsome (04:41):
I agree with you there.
I agree with you there, let's.
Let's go on to another one then.
How about bias?
Now, that word and we'veprobably talked about this on
air before, but that word isusually a negative, and you and
I, so I don't want to just focuson that, I want to talk about
your discrimination and I'mgonna let you, you do most of
(05:01):
the talking in this section,because you are our HR
professional.
Let's, can you separate biasfrom discrimination?
Just briefly.
Ricky Baez (05:10):
Correct.
So Discrimination is what thelaw has, has determined what is
illegal or not illegal.
Now this, so let me pause forit quick.
The word discrimination soundsbad.
Right, as a recruiter, though.
Right, our job is to decide whois the right person for the
role or not.
Where discrimination comes intoplay, when the law comes into
(05:33):
play, is whether we do itlegally or not.
Right, because, at the end ofthe day, if you're interviewing
10 people, you only need five.
There's five people who are notgonna get that job.
So we just made a determinationbased on those, those
Attributes.
But when the bias comes in andI keep saying it because it
sounds like my last name is whenyou hire somebody Based on your
(05:56):
previous experience.
Whether you hire somebody youlike and they don't have the
proper credentials to do the job, or you have somebody who has
the credentials to do the job,you just don't like them, that
bias me does not need to beincluded in that deciding factor
, and the Discrimination pieceit what it does.
(06:17):
It guides you to help you not toask illegal questions, and Pete
is very easy to fall into thattrap.
Right?
I'll give you a great example.
One of the things that I do tocoach interviewers is to create
an environment where thecandidate is comfortable, right.
So you, you do some chitchat,right, they come in.
How was traffic?
How was this?
(06:37):
What about that game last night?
You start asking those kinds ofquestions the more comfortable
they get.
That's breed, those arebreeding grounds for questions.
You should not be asking right,because next the next thing you
know you could be asking well,I see here, you went to Puerto
Rico, are you from there?
Is that how you learn Spanish?
When do you graduate highschool?
You're gonna fall into a lot ofdifferent traps that we have to
(07:00):
look into.
Pete Newsome (07:01):
So it's safe to say then, as a way of thinking
about it, that just because it'sa question that's appropriate
in the outside world, if youmeet someone in your, in your,
in your personal life, doesn'tmean that it's okay in your
private life or in the end I'msorry it doesn't mean that it's
okay professionally in aninterview setting specifically.
Ricky Baez (07:20):
That is correct and and folks, at the end of the day
, as as the interviewer, if youask Non-relevant questions, if
he has non-relevant questionsand the person does not get the
job, you're giving that personsome kind of credibility in
whatever idea they may have Into.
They didn't get the job becauseof the illegal questions that
were asked.
(07:40):
Okay, so we, it's you.
You just have to make sure thatyou stop yourself.
You prevent yourself in thatorganization to fall into that
trap.
Pete Newsome (07:48):
So we will talk too much about what those
questions are.
Right now We'll link to theEEOC's website.
That spells it out very clearlyand there's a great read, by
the way.
Yeah, and well, there's there's, there's some little videos on
there that will.
That will help and it's reallyeasy to understand what the
protected classes are in whatyou need to avoid.
(08:09):
But, ricky, we can Discriminateagainst some things, can't we?
We can be biased against somethings, can we not like?
How about laziness?
Can we?
Can we be biased against that?
Ricky Baez (08:20):
Absolutely somebody comes in right and they just
don't care about the job.
Everything they say just tellsyou they're lazy, right?
Absolutely I'm not gonna hirethat person right, that person
is not gonna be on my team.
And you know, if, if againsomebody comes in and they show
you that they do just enough notto get fired, it's not somebody
that I want on my team and I'mjust not gonna hire them.
(08:42):
Right, and they can call, Imean they some people may call
that discrimination and I meanI'm gonna go on a limb and say,
yeah, it just happens to belegal.
Pete Newsome (08:51):
That's right.
That's right, and you have toknow the difference.
That's really what this isabout and that comes down to
preparation.
So let's move on to to talkabout that a little bit, because
Companies, employers, shouldn'tthrow someone into the fire who
isn't prepared, who hasn't hadthat exposure to the EEOC
guidelines, because it's an easymistake to make with good
(09:13):
intentions.
You described a perfectscenario.
You're talking about where youwere from the weekend.
I know you recently traveled toPuerto Rico.
I know you're from there.
If I asked you too manyquestions about that, it may be
innocent and it may beappropriate again in our
personal lives, but I I mightget in trouble for that.
I could very well get introuble for that.
(09:34):
So we have to prepare to avoidthose things.
That's the best way for it notto happen.
Ricky Baez (09:39):
Well, and also, it's just because it's the
organization thinks they'redoing something good, it doesn't
mean it's not against the law.
So let me give you a quickexample.
Pete, years ago I was doing a.
I was helping an organizationdo an interview.
They wanted to hire a forkliftdriver.
I was on the panel with threeother interviewers.
(09:59):
This forklift driver candidatecame in.
It was obvious she was pregnant.
Right, she it's.
It was very obvious.
The hiring manager next to me,as soon as you start, no, you
know what?
We're not going to do this.
And I'm looking at him and Ikicked them so hard under the
desk.
Hey, because he did not want tointerview her because she was
(10:20):
pregnant.
And the rationale he gave islike, ricky, I don't want her to
get hurt, right, I don't wanther or the baby to get.
This is a tough job.
And what I'm telling him isthat's irrelevant.
That is, that is an illegalreason Not to continue with the
interview process.
Now, his heart was in the rightplace because he genuinely
believed he was doing the rightthing.
(10:42):
Nonetheless, still an illegalthing to do.
Oh, trust me, we finished thatinterview.
She got hired because she wasthe best candidate for that role
, right?
So those are the things that wehave to be careful with as
hiring authorities.
Pete Newsome (10:55):
So what else can you do to prepare for an
interview?
So we have to make sure thosethings are in place and you have
to have the knowledge as theinterviewer.
What about understanding thejob description Right now?
In this scenario, you just gavethe person understood that
there was some physical riskassociated with it, but I think
a lot of times a can't, a commoncan it complaint that I have is
the interview takes place or Ina common complaint that I hear,
(11:18):
rather the interview takesplace and the interviewer is
unprepared To really understandwhat the job is about and what
they should be asking about interms of qualifying the
individual who's there tointerview for it.
That's a terrible experiencethat to go through for that
candidate.
Ricky Baez (11:36):
So correct.
So it for me.
What I'm thinking about is acandidate experience.
I prepared, I, I.
I drove the actual routes.
I bother my neighbor to help meinterview and videotape me.
I went and got my power suit.
I prepared, I get to theinterview early, I'm did
everything right and the personis five minutes late to the
(11:56):
interview.
You can still see the, theSubstains on your shirt, because
they just finished eating lunch.
They're reviewing the, theresume.
It looks unprepared and from myperspective from the candidates
perspective I start thinkingthis is their best foot forward
and this is how they come inacross.
Folks, you have to be carefulwhat type of of of culture you
(12:21):
project.
So what do you do if you knowyou have an interview at 12 noon
?
That means way before 12 noon.
You should review the resume,know who's coming in Already,
have comments and questions ondifferent parts of the resume
that you have questions on.
So Reviewing the resume at thebeginning of the interview, it's
(12:42):
just not a good look.
You want to come across thatyou've done this before, you
prefer it and you're ready foraction.
That's testing the Candidate.
This organization has theirstuff together.
Pete Newsome (12:53):
So know the job, know the candidate and then know
what you're going to ask.
That's the next thing.
They have a strategy for theinterview.
Whether you're alone or with agroup, don't rely on others.
If you're in a group, planahead of time, have a meeting
about it, have a conversationand Be organized.
That that's really what we'retalking about and that's that's
what preparation is, and if youare Prepared, it'll go smoothly.
(13:17):
You'll really be in position toget to come away with a very
good assessment of whether thecan it's a good fit, and that's
that's the objective, ultimately, of the time that you're
spending.
Ricky Baez (13:28):
That's right.
Just just train, train ahead oftime and look, I get it, we're
busy.
I completely understand, right,because if you're especially
right now, pete, a lot oforganizations are short staff at
the bottom of the barrel and inthe middle of the barrel, right
, so you have a middle linemanager who's like oh god, not
only am, I am do not have enoughtime in the week to do my job.
(13:50):
Now I got to interview fivepeople.
We completely get it.
You've got to make time.
You have to make time becauseyour lack of resources really
isn't the candidates problem,right, and the the candidate
shouldn't suffer because of thatand the candidate will.
Pete Newsome (14:06):
The candidate will know They'll, they'll sense it,
they'll sniff it out and it'sgonna be very obvious.
And just don't put anyonethrough that.
It's easily avoided withcandidates today, have options,
just saying they do and they'll,they'll, they'll consider that
in terms of when they want tomove forward.
So let's, let's move on toanother section now.
This one's particularlyinteresting to me because I've
(14:29):
always liked to approachinterviews in an unstructured
way.
Maybe that's the professionalsales person in me just can't
get away from letting theConversation guide the path that
I go down.
That's always how I'veapproached sales, where I'm
listening and then responding.
But that's very different thana structured interview, and
there's pros and cons to both.
(14:50):
Talk about that for a second,do you?
How dangerous is anunstructured interview?
I, given everything we justtalked about in terms of
preparation, I'm always prepared, but I like to let the
conversation take its own course.
Ricky Baez (15:06):
Me too, and so.
So, yeah, this could be a wholedifferent show there, pete,
because I have a lot to to sayabout this one.
So let's talk aboutunstructured interviews, right?
That means that you don't havea set of questions, you just go
with the conversation, and thedanger in that is is that you
run the risk of asking Oneperson a different set of
(15:26):
questions than a differentperson.
So how can you possibly make adecision on the skillset needed
for the job if you're askingdifferent questions to get
different answers, right?
So it's the best thing to do isto make sure you have the same
set of questions For everycandidate that comes across.
Now, obviously, I don't wantthe set of questions to Dominate
(15:49):
the conversation, because ifthe candidate says something
that's really exciting, you wantto go down that road,
definitely do so, but at thevery least, you got to make sure
the core questions remain thesame.
So now go ahead.
Well, I was gonna say nowYou're asking somebody who's
unconventional in how he doesinterviews.
(16:09):
Because I do not like to conductinterviews in the office, pete,
at all.
I do not.
I like to go somewhere wherethe candidate is comfortable.
So I like to go to Chili's.
Right, I go to Chili's back.
When I did this back in thepast, we used to always go to
Chili's.
My boss was always upsetbecause my P card was through
the roof whenever it wasinterview season.
(16:30):
But here's the thing, from fromfrom a, from a hiring
authorities perspective.
If you create an environmentthat the candidate is really
comfortable, you're going to getsome amazing pieces of
information.
Because they're comfortable,they'll tell you exactly what
they're excited about.
More importantly, they tell youwhat they don't like.
(16:50):
And sometimes you do it in away that you're like I'm glad
I'm finding this out now.
Then six months down the road,so I can make a decision now.
So that's how I do it, buteverybody's different.
Pete Newsome (17:02):
Well, and that's not practical for every scenario
too.
We know that.
I mean, it's ideal.
It'd be great if we could siton a couch, have a meal, just
spend significant time together.
But a lot of times thestructure and the time
restraints don't really allowfor that.
But for certain positions,where it's a look, I'm just
(17:24):
gonna say this some hires aremore unique than others.
So if you're hiring anexecutive level professional
where there's very fewcandidates who are qualified,
very few who could meet thecriteria, that kind of
investment of time is practical.
But if you're hiring for 20positions to fill a call center
role, let's say probably notgoing to take them all to
(17:47):
Chili's.
Ricky Baez (17:48):
Absolutely not Just having a big job fair in the
call center, like I've done inthe past, and have a petting zoo
, which I've done in the past.
Pete Newsome (17:55):
Well, we don't necessarily recommend that, but
it could be fun, maybe on theweekend.
So, once the interview takesplace, talk about the right
questions, and so we suggesteveryone plan.
But what does that mean?
Really?
There's so many differentstyles of interviewing and
different routes you can go down.
One of the things that Ibelieve is of particular
(18:16):
importance and you just broughtit up, which is why I wanted to
talk about it next is behavioralinterview questions.
How do you?
Just because someone looks goodon paper doesn't mean they're
going to be the right fit.
So what's your thought on theimportance of those?
Ricky Baez (18:31):
So I'm really careful in crafting my questions
because I don't want to askquestions that are answered in
yes or no and I don't want toask questions in what would you
do in this situation, becausewhat would you do doesn't tell
me what you've done in the past.
The questions I like to ask istell me a time where ABC
(18:53):
happened and where ABC happened,what was your response, what
did you do to that and what wasthe outcome?
That tells me that kind of anemployee, this person is going
to be in the same scenario, samesituation that they're going to
experience here.
So can people lie?
Of course they can, but if youask, tell me a time when you did
(19:14):
A, b and C.
That gives you a more closerperspective into how he or she
would handle that situation inyour organization.
So stay away from yes or noquestions.
Make sure that you askquestions, behavior questions,
of what they've done in the past.
You're going to end up in amuch better position to make a
decision to hire the rightperson.
Pete Newsome (19:34):
And that decision to hire the right person.
To me, it's such a meaningfulphrase because it's not about
whether the person can do thejob, it's not about whether
they're qualified for the job,it's about whether they're going
to be good fit for the job inthe company culture and that's
something that I was talking tomy recruiting team earlier this
(19:57):
morning about where people willsay recruiting is sales and in
many ways it is.
I believe that, but not in thesense of trying to talk someone
into doing something.
Try to talk someone into takinga job just because they can do
it.
It's about whether they willwant to do it, whether they'll
be happy and satisfied doing it,and whether the company will be
(20:18):
happy and satisfied with them.
And so that is important, asthe skill set, those soft skills
, really have to come out and wehave to make sure that desires
align right what the companydesires and what the individual
desires, and I think that getslost too often.
So it's something in my opinionit's very worthy of focusing on
(20:40):
during the interview is let'ssee if we're really going to be
a match, not just on the firstday, but on day 100 and many
days beyond that.
Ricky Baez (20:51):
You said something in the past I don't know if it
was on this show or the otherone that really caught my
attention.
You said that you almost triedto talk people out of a job.
You tell them everything aboutthe job, everything about it,
everything that happens, and ifthe good, bad and the ugly and
if they're still like you knowwhat I'm in you got the right
(21:13):
person.
Pete Newsome (21:14):
Well, yeah, I mean .
So caveat to that is I wasspecifically talking about that
in terms of hiring forrecruiting and sales, because
it's a commission oriented joband it can be a challenging job
Every job can be but when peopleare your product, so to speak,
you have to be a certain kind ofperson to withstand
(21:34):
disappointment and frustrationand knowing that you're going to
.
If you just think of recruiting, if you interview, if you call
a candidate, if you see ahundred resumes that you've
sourced and you call a hundredcandidates for one job opening,
that means 99 aren't going toget the job.
Some significant percentage isprobably not going to call you
(21:59):
back.
Some who do pick up the phonearen't going to be necessarily
friendly and accommodating towhy you're calling.
And so recruiting and a salesjob and everyone knows this
about sales but recruiting isthe same way.
It's not for the faint of heart.
And so, yes, when we're hiringfor a role like that, I do try
to talk people out of the job.
But it brings up an interestingthing that I read the other day
(22:20):
.
Someone posted on LinkedIn Idon't know it wasn't someone I
know or I probably would havecalled and talked to him about
it but they said let's get awayfrom excluding candidates, let's
try to rule in candidates.
And I thought no, no, no, no,no.
That is not how you shouldrecruit.
Ricky Baez (22:37):
Yeah, I'm with you there.
Pete Newsome (22:39):
It sounds nice, right.
Rainbows and puppy dog tails,whatever right, and butterflies,
I mean.
All that sounds nice like aDisney movie, but the reality is
you have to look for the thingsthat aren't on the surface.
That's what a good recruiter orinterviewer can do is let's not
just share all the positive,let's make sure this is going to
(23:02):
be, like I said, a good fit onday 100, just like we think it
is on day one, and so you haveto get underneath the surface to
really have those conversations.
That's taken us a little offtopic for today, but Is it.
Ricky Baez (23:16):
I'm sorry, go ahead.
Pete Newsome (23:18):
No, it's okay and I would say it's necessary even
to talk about the downside of ajob If you only say here's all
the good, right, let me justgive you our good traits.
Well, we don't want to besurprised with bad news later.
So you know, I'm a big believerthat bad news early is good
news.
Same thing applies in theinterview process.
Ricky Baez (23:40):
I think it's crucial .
I think it's crucial.
I think if you don't give thegood, the bad and the ugly,
you're going to run the risk ofdealing with people who will
have an issue with that sixmonths down the road, after you
spend a lot of money to onboardthem and train them.
Might as well take care of thatat the very beginning.
One more thing I want to say Iknow that we have to move on,
(24:00):
because this crafting thequestion piece is crucial, and
here's what is crucial.
Another area Depending on thenature of the job, you may have
to ask some questions that onthe face, on the surface, may
sound illegal.
A great example we talked aboutearlier how you can fall into a
trap.
(24:20):
If I just went to Puerto Rico,is that how I learned how to
speak Spanish?
What happens if you do have aposition that one of the
skillset is that you know thatyou have to know Spanish?
Do not make an assumptionwhether somebody knows Spanish
or not because of their lastname.
Do not make an assumptionbecause of that.
You have to ask in a specificmanner.
(24:40):
Don't say oh, you lived inPuerto Rico, so you have to know
Spanish.
You lived in the DominicanRepublic, you have to know
Spanish.
Now you ask everybody one ofthe main things for this job is
you have to be proficient tospeak and write Spanish.
Is that something you can do?
That's it.
That's it.
And if they say yes, you goforward.
(25:01):
If they say no, that's aknockout question, then you're
going to have to make a leftthere.
But you have to partner withhuman resources to make sure
that the right questions areasked for the right positions.
Pete Newsome (25:11):
Consistent with everything we've said so far.
Right, Make sure you knowwhat's allowed and what's not.
That is step one, prior to anyof these deeper level things,
for sure.
But let's move on.
Go to another one.
Let's talk about activelistening a little bit,
responding and reacting to whatthe candidate says.
Don't be a robot.
I don't want to dwell on thisone too much but a good
(25:32):
interviewer listens and responds.
They don't just have a cannedset of questions and you may
need to change your course alittle bit during the interview
conversation.
Ricky Baez (25:44):
I'm a firm believer, Pete, that in an interview,
once you do the introductionsand you explain what the job is
all about, anything after that,80% of the conversation should
be coming from the candidate and20% should be coming from the
hiring authority.
I mean, I'm a big believer inthat.
Do you share that samesentiment or do you have a
different ratio?
Pete Newsome (26:03):
I do.
I mean, certainly at thebeginning of the interview.
I want to hear from thecandidate, because once you
start talking as the interviewer, that's going to skew the
conversation and the answersthat would have otherwise come
from the candidate.
You want those to be natural,so you don't want to say early
in the interview we look forpeople who think ABC or ACT, abc
(26:27):
in every scenario, whateverthat might be.
We look for aggressive people,or we look for people who are,
who love working as a team, forexample, right.
And then if someone who likesbeing autonomous and really
likes solo work, if they hearthe interviewer say upfront we
are looking for people who wantto be part of a team and how
(26:49):
they spend their day.
If they need the job, they'llsay that, even if they don't
mean it.
So planning thoughts in thecandidate's head is just a bad
idea.
It won't leave too genuine,open, honest answers.
Not because the candidateintended to give answers that
weren't genuine.
(27:09):
It's because you told themthat's what you were looking for
and so of course they're goingto tell you what you want to
hear, or they I mean they mayjust get up and walk out, I mean
, but very few people do thatI've discovered.
So let the candidate do thetalking.
And then at the end, if you areconcerned about something, as
the interviewer or, in my case,as we just were talking about,
(27:33):
if I want to try to talk someoneout of something because I've
sensed that they may not be agood fit from their words, then
I will press down on thosethings at the end.
But yes, 100%, let them do thetalking upfront.
Ricky Baez (27:47):
That's right.
Okay, so we're in the same page, awesome.
Pete Newsome (27:50):
We usually are on this stuff Right.
I mean, when it comes tointerviewing, there's a certain
set of guidelines that arealmost universal in nature.
I mean, there's extremes andthere's unique things for every
job.
How you'd interview someone toplay in the NFL is different
than how you'd interview someoneto work in a call center, but
in the business world thesethings almost always are
(28:11):
universally applicable.
So let's move on to anothersection and briefly talk about
culture, fit and the importanceof that.
I think we did already, butit's on, it's kind of on the
list that we want to make surethat we do talk about the
importance of identifying softskills.
So was there anything we missedthere, ricky?
Ricky Baez (28:30):
No, it's I.
To be honest, Pete.
I got a lot of pushback on thisone because I'm a firm believer
in hiring for attitude Right.
So to me, if the person meetsthe minimum criteria of what the
job requires, but they have theright attitude for the job,
absolutely I'm going to go withthat person, versus somebody
who's just taking the mud for alack of a better term.
(28:52):
So, yes, you have to assess forsoft skills and make sure you
have a good cultural fit,because not only do you have to
hire the right person for theorganization, you have to hire
the right person to mesh withthe rest of the team they're
going to be working with.
Yeah, I mean that is animportant thing to, to to take
into account.
Pete Newsome (29:08):
It absolutely is.
I mean, the organization is theindividuals, right.
So it's not the company brand,the company name, it's, it's
those other people you you'regoing to work with.
I mean, it doesn't matter whoworks for you know ABC company,
if they work in in Europe andyou never engage with the team
in Europe.
It matters who you're workingwith locally as part of your day
(29:30):
to day life.
So that's I think that's asimportant as anything else in an
interview for the Candaceperspective, as are they going
to be happy with people theyhave to interact with every day?
Ricky Baez (29:42):
Right, yeah, Well, yeah, just just just get along
in a way that's respectful andit it there's healthy conflict,
because you do want that, youdon't want to avoid all conflict
, but they do it in a way thatit it adds value to the culture
of the organization and, at theend of the day, and that's value
to what you're selling, whetherit's a product or a service,
because, the end of the day, weare a for profit organization.
(30:03):
Most of organizations are so soyou've.
Pete Newsome (30:06):
You've conducted the interview, you've closed,
right.
What happens next?
If you're you know, sometimesan individual make a decision by
themselves, they'll havecomplete autonomy, but a lot of
times there's others involved.
I would say the vast majorityof the time.
In my experience, at least oneother person, if not more, gets
to weigh in on a candidate,maybe has to approve a hire.
(30:28):
What thoughts do you have onwhat should happen post
interview?
Ricky Baez (30:33):
So, post interview, I'm a firm believer, pete, in
letting the candidate know whatto expect from beginning to end.
That way, they are not lost inthe process.
Nine times out of 10 in aninterview process, everybody
knows what's going to happennext, except one person the
candidate.
So we need to let that personknow what is to be expected and
(30:54):
you know what, whether they getthe job or not.
I think it's really importantto ask the candidate about the
process.
How did the process go?
Do you have any feedback fromthe process?
Because you, as a hiringauthority, you're seeing this
from the hiring authority'sperspective.
That same situation is beingprocessed by somebody from a
different point of view and theyhave really good information to
(31:17):
make your profit.
Your process is just that muchbetter.
So I suggest you should havesome kind of a process to ask
for feedback and you implementthat feedback.
So ask for feedback, have somereflection and let the candidate
know what to expect next.
Pete Newsome (31:35):
I was just thinking about panel interviews
the other day because wepublished a blog about it, the
pros and cons, and one thingthat I like about panel
interviews is the.
Now, there's a lot to not likeabout panel interviews,
especially from the candidate'sperspective.
Right, most aren't fans, butwhat it does for me is it gives
the ability, it forces theability, to hear the perspective
(31:59):
of a peer, a colleague, someonefrom a different department,
someone from a different levelwithin your organization,
because we all hear the samethings, but the way we interpret
it is different.
You might see different bodylanguage and when you're
actively engaged in aconversation, like you and I are
right now, it's different thanwhen you're witnessing other
(32:21):
people exchange, be engaged in aconversation.
So you get to hear somethingdifferent.
Right, I'm thinking about whatyou're saying.
I'm also having to think abouthow I'm going to respond versus
just being an independentobserver.
And when I hear other peopleask questions in a panel
interview that I'm part of, in alot of times these questions I
wouldn't have thought to ask.
They hear something I miss.
(32:41):
So there's a lot of value thereand a surprising it's not
surprising to me anymore, butperhaps to those who haven't
been through a lot of interviews, a surprising amount of time.
One person may love a candidate.
The other person may have a lotof reasons not to like them at
all, even though they wereexposed to the same information.
Ricky Baez (33:01):
So that is when you get everybody together and you
have honest, heart-to-heartconversations on why you didn't
like that person.
Why you did like that personBecause, yes, I agree with you,
pete panel interviews I get justthe same amount of information
to hire a candidate or not hirea candidate from my peers on the
panel interview.
(33:21):
Then I do, then the actualcandidate, because you're right,
the person to my left or to myright may have seen something I
didn't see.
So that's why I love panelinterviews.
For that very same reason.
Pete Newsome (33:31):
Yeah, and it's a great way for young interviewers
to be exposed, or newinterviewers anyway to be
exposed to those with moreexperience, where they have the
ability to learn, becauseinterview training is something
that should be ongoing.
I mean, I can't think of anyexamples I probably shouldn't
say them, if I do off the top ofmy head that things that were
(33:52):
acceptable in an interview 30years ago that aren't acceptable
now, but I bet there's a prettylong list.
So if you're not trying tocontinue to improve and be part
of learning and evolving, itmight create a different kind of
problem.
So, even though really thisinterview training show that
(34:13):
we're doing today is about, wekind of by default think of new
employees, young professionals,because it's just as important,
if not even more important, toolder professionals who are more
set in their ways.
Ricky Baez (34:25):
Well, it's Pete.
It's something that I believeshould be done on an annual
basis, because there's now theway technology is evolving, the
way the work culture is evolving, and it's happening right in
front of our eyes.
You don't get to see everythingjust by working right.
You have to conduct trainingand who knows, maybe as a result
of this podcast, pete, you andI will do a webinar on this
(34:47):
right.
We already know exactly whatneeds to happen.
I've done this in the past andit works, but it's there are
different things that arehappening in the world today
that just never existed five,six years ago.
So it's crucial to conducttraining on an annual basis to
make sure your number one, your,your recruiters and your hiring
(35:08):
authorities are representingyour brand in the light in which
the culture it's, it's, it'ssupposed to be with that brand.
That's crucial you don't getsued right.
It's really easy for that tohappen these days.
Pete Newsome (35:21):
So that's right.
That's.
That's step one.
Step one don't get sued.
Step two everything else.
But no, I got it backwards.
Well, no, I think you're.
You're right.
I mean, though, in a sense youdo have to have the big elephant
in the room, so to speak, ofthe any kind of legal issue.
But we know that there's aripple effect that takes place
(35:42):
of every interaction, and you'resomeone who is such a big
believer in onboarding and howthat process starts from the
moment you engage with acandidate, and I think you're
100% right about that.
But a lot of times, theinterview is not going to go
well.
If you would have been morethan one person for one opening,
someone's going to bedisappointed, someone's going to
(36:03):
have to be told they didn't getthe job, and if you didn't
treat that individual well,intentionally or otherwise, it's
going to have a ripple effectand it's going to damage the
company's reputation.
Ricky Baez (36:18):
And you know, and not only that, pete, it's, it's
we.
Let's talk about the higher-endauthorities energy, right,
because if you interviewsomebody, let's say you
interview in five people in oneday, I guarantee your energy,
your, your enthusiasm oninterview number one, different
than interview number five,right?
So we got to make sure thatit's that you give the same
(36:41):
energy with all interviews asyou do as the first interview,
and it's hard to do, but it'snot impossible to do.
You just have to work a littlebit More.
I don't know.
Go to Starbucks after lunch,right.
Do whatever you need to dotoday to get that caffeine up,
to make sure you are showingevery candidate the same
enthusiasm, yeah, that that younormally wish show for the first
(37:04):
candidate such.
Pete Newsome (37:05):
I'm really glad you made that point Because it's
so important that, even thoughit may be your tenth interview,
it's the candidates first.
That's right.
That tenth candidate is doingit for the first time.
And If you you can't show that,even if you feel it and we all
know what that feels like thethought that I don't want to Go
do this.
(37:26):
I've done it ten times and it'sreal, I mean, it's a struggle,
is real, so to speak.
But you have to.
You have to put on a differentface.
You have to stop and bring thatenthusiasm and that's a word
that I use a lot, it's a wordthat I have great belief in in
terms of Success in and howsomeone is perceived Enthusiasm
(37:49):
and I certainly look for that incandidates.
Well, I should have the sameenthusiasm when I'm interviewing
because they took the time tobe there.
It's a huge thing in someone'slife.
Of course.
We have to take that seriouslyand give it the respect it
deserves.
And Right, you know, bring yourbest that you're obligated to
do that as an interviewer.
Ricky Baez (38:11):
That's right.
And and look, if you are aleader right now listening to
this and you have recruitersthat are that are that, that are
exposed to all these candidatesand all these situations that
we're talking about again, getthem the training.
Get it sent on this podcast,right, send them this podcast,
make sure they listen to it,because, folks, it is really
easy to step on the landmine andwe are here to make Sure you
(38:34):
navigate through those and makesure you hire the best people
for your organization.
Pete Newsome (38:38):
Trust me on that, I will die in that hill well,
let's close on that hill too,because I think that's a perfect
way to do it.
Ricky, will we do a follow-up,I think, on what happens to the
candidates who aren't selected?
What, how you, how you presentoffers?
That's its own show Postinterview, so we'll do that
later.
But next week, ricky, I thinkwe're due for Q&A.
(39:00):
We we have questions piling up.
We keep saying we're going todo it and haven't done it yet,
so can we commit right now nextweek Q&A session?
Ricky Baez (39:08):
Roger that I will be in town, I will be in the
studio.
Absolutely, that is gonnahappen.
Pete Newsome (39:12):
I love the new look.
I the studio is looking good.
It's wonderful.
I won't ask you to go back andsit in the chair, but it looks
great.
Ricky Baez (39:20):
Thank you, appreciate it.
Pete Newsome (39:22):
So so let's do that.
If you want to throw in anotherquestion, we have room for more
.
We always like getting willpick the best.
It is hire calling@4 cornerresources.
com.
We'd love to hear from you onany, any suggestions you have
for the show.
So thanks for joining and thishas been this has been a fun
(39:43):
conversation, as always, ricky.
Hopefully we we help some folksout there improve their
interview process.
Ricky Baez (39:48):
I'm sure we did, and make sure you tune in for next
week.
We we are gonna have that Q&A.
Keep your eyes open.
We might have that a leadership, that a recruitment, training,
interview and training coming upfor yourself.
Pete Newsome (39:58):
All right, stay tuned.
Have a great rest of the day.
Bye you.
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