EXCLUSIVE! Interview with NYT Best Selling Author of Horse Soldiers, Doug Stanton!

Our exclusive interview with New York Times Best Selling Author of Horse Soldiers, Doug Stanton! We will be talking about his experience writing the book as well as the motivation behind putting this story together.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to the history on the rocks podcast. This is your host Cody and today we have an exclusive interview

(00:06):
Our guest today is a number one New York Times best-selling author
His works include horse soldiers the bases for the Jerry Brookheimer produced movie 12 Strong and our featured story for this
podcast four-part series
in harm's way a New York Times
Notable book and the definitive account of the sinking rescue and valor of the USS Indianapolis crew and

(00:29):
And the Odyssey of Echo Company, which is a military times best book of the year and
recipient of the Society of Midlands author's best nonfiction book award
Please welcome to the history on the rocks podcast Doug Stanton

(01:09):
That's good
So Doug the first thing I wanted to ask you is how did you become about writing the story of horse soldiers?
What was your inspiration for the book?
the inspiration for writing horse soldiers

(01:30):
occurred to me when I saw an article in Time magazine, but a journalist named Alex Perry
Who'd been trapped in the Kalijangi
Fortress during a momentous battle of November 25th 2001
Alex wrote a really good account of what had happened
to the people inside the fortress and in the middle of that we find out that an

(01:53):
American from California named John Walker Lind
Has found himself in the middle of this firefight having been
imprisoned or sequestered
in the
In the fortress itself and then questioned by a CIA officer named Mike Spann
And it was that faceoff between these two Americans

(02:15):
That became worldwide news and Mike was tragically killed in an uprising shortly after his questioning of of Lind
And I just I wondered how did Mike Spann end up there and how did John Walker Lind end up there?
And of course the book is cast a much bigger net than that it goes all the way back

(02:37):
To you know really the 80s and 90s in Afghanistan, but that was really it by reading this fantastic piece by Alex Perry
Yeah, and in the book I the the John Walker Lind story totally caught me off guard because here I'm sitting down
I'm like all right get a read about you know special forces and then there's this backstory there
of an American who is

(02:58):
Is operating inside the Taliban and I was just as a reader I was like whoa
I've actually never heard of this
He had yeah, he'd come from California to study
um Arabic in Yemen and
Had found him he'd slid from kind of one

(03:21):
Community each perhaps more radicalizing the other and then found him as part of um
A kind of a some Bin Laden's brigade and there he was
Yeah, that that was that was wild to me
Um, I had no idea so so he so you started there
John uh, I'm sorry John Walker Lind was actually the

(03:45):
first
first kind of hearing of this
Well, it is because on November 25th
2001 when Mike Spann's officer is
Is is killed in this firefight
With along with his colleague Dave Tyson both CIA
paramilitary officers
Working in Afghanistan as part of the pilot team that came in and um

(04:09):
Uh earlier that fall to lead the way and we can talk about that in just a moment. Um, no one knew that they were
It had been such a light footprint and
executed so quickly that
um
Number one. Oh, so we do have American special forces soldiers in Afghanistan

(04:29):
The CIA is working there and and on top of that there's this American citizen
and
when that happened it became worldwide news and as this is one of the
kind of coincidences of writing this book
Is that it later became
Friends with Shannon span who is Mike Spann's widow

(04:50):
So Shannon is now remarried, but when when her husband Mike was killed and they had a son
Just months old jake
Uh, she became um the first real public face
Um of the first american to be killed in post 9 11 combat

(05:11):
And so that that's how the world really I saw the curtain was pulled back
On this response to september 11th 2001
Um since I've become um acquaintances with jake and he's grown up to be um
Find young man and with a with a big career ahead of him. Um, but uh

(05:33):
That the book is not by any stretch about john walker lind
at all
Um, but that's you know that that was the news of the day
Um, you know 23 years ago. Yeah, and it's definitely like a kind of a bombshell moment
And especially for the american public to kind of hear that after you know 9 11

(05:54):
Exactly and and what did you want to go back and and touch on?
I think I was talking about mike span, uh, another person named jr seager
Who has since become a friend and uh, alex rinandez
uh same way
They were they were part of this pilot team

(06:16):
Um
Tasked by the central intelligence agency
When 9 11 happened to go in and reignite these old communication lines that have been lingering since the 80s and 90s
when um, we had armed
The muja hadin to to get rid of the soviets
Could you explain more about the muja hadin? Well, yeah, I know that you touched on it and um, you give um

(06:40):
A good description of it in episode one here for you. Um, you have these tribal groups the hasaras
uh, the tashiks the usbex
and the past dunes who are part part of this um
Intercountry civil war with each other

(07:03):
Uh post soviet withdrawal
Uh, so the soviets leave there's a power vacuum and you have these um
these these groups fighting each other and um for a number of reasons the past dunes being the um
The supposed well not supposed but being um the majority of uh, uh and in leadership positions uh

(07:28):
President carzai was a past June the hasaras on the other hand being a minority
um hasaras being you know, uh
the taliban
You know
Really went after the hasaras and slaughtered them by the thousands
The taliban being past dunes so out of this chaos and this maelstrom the taliban arise

(07:53):
as a
quasi police force or a quasi
uh center point to still the civil war in the country they begin to meet out justice
and um
at one point um
If you had something to take to market you would be in your truck driving on the road
You'd maybe stop two or three times to pay a toll

(08:16):
at different
stations run either by a single um
Tribal group or maybe various tribal groups and the taliban began to to to get rid of the quote corruption
But then of course they became corrupt themselves
Perhaps they always were but what we do know is that they were always extremely um to be repetitive extreme

(08:39):
in their interpretation of
The korean and sharia law that and etc. And so um that's that's a snapshot of how you go from
These different tribal groups to the taliban owning maybe 90 of the country
uh in september of 2001 after
After uh more than a decade of of civil war

(09:03):
You referenced earlier in another part uh kodi about uh amat shama sued
Who is uh taji fighting up in the northern part of afghanistan correct? Yes
And he he's actually one of the few holdouts. He is I think the last holdout against the taliban
and he is um assassinated on september 9th, I believe 2001

(09:27):
and uh to take to cut the head off of any kind of resistance and I don't what
the taliban and um
al-qaeda
Obviously didn't anticipate was the entrance
of the u.s. Into the country
of the u.s. Into the conflict at that time
That that makes complete sense

(09:49):
um, that's kind of a you know that hold 80s 90s
afghanistan soviet conflict um
is just
I think the precursor to a lot of things that go on
In afghanistan and then yeah, like you just said not
Realizing that the united states was going to be a player
In the future

(10:10):
Yeah, there's a book called that a lot of the special forces soldiers I interviewed
Read called the bear went over the mountain for anyone who wants to know more about the soviet
Invasion of afghanistan and then of course if you um
Want to read about those early days of the muja hadin and the arming of them?

(10:30):
um
Either read or watch charlie wilson's war a movie with tom hanks. Okay
um that that covers
How um
How we armed
Certain parts of afghan society who later became the taliban and not all did but um

(10:51):
Those are two interesting places to start great suggestions
Especially for me and I know people who are interested in this topic as well
I'm definitely gonna have to check both of those out
Because I you know that's the soviet that soviet
Um invasion of afghanistan is something that i'm
I'm knowledgeable about but the in-depth part. I I couldn't tell you much so I think that's a that's a really interesting topic for

(11:16):
You know that time period
You just mentioned and I think this is a good segue into this question
You mentioned the special forces members that you interviewed for this for this book
So uh one of the questions I was very curious about you know
Just reading the reading your book in general and constantly my head is you know, how did you gather all this information?

(11:37):
to write this story
And and who were those people that you reached out to to get all of this, you know, there's a lot of detail in this book
Yeah, it's in space on oral histories interviews over a hundred interviews with
basically every element that was on the ground
in from
infiltration
in october 2001 of special forces

(11:59):
until exfiltration which would be
in 2002 because then they were going to iraq in 2003
um
I'd written a book called in harms way about the sinking of uss indianapolis in world war two
um, which people may have read and it was that book

(12:20):
um, which looked deeply at the humanity of the people involved and and that book is about
survival at sea
And it's it's an epic story and this is the the ship indianapolis that delivered the atomic bomb components correct
Etc. Um, and the men survived the captain was court marshal captain mcvay

(12:41):
um
And it's an epic story. It's a survival and I was interested in what it felt like to be there
How this experience had changed these world war two veterans, etc
Uh, I'm always interested in, you know, the details of the technology and so on but that really was my
Point of entry and so when it came to the horse soldiers, I really wanted to know just no one had done it before

(13:06):
um
How
How they executed this
very light footprint mission
with two
teams and 12 people then with some air force
combat controllers attached of course led first by
teams of cia officers, but it was very very late. We're talking hundreds not thousands which is

(13:30):
Which is what if you'd gone to the panagon?
On september 11th 2001 after the attack in america, there was no plan on the shelf for afghanistan
I mean, we could have executed a large overland
invasion of 50 60 000 troops, but that would have taken months
And if you we can remember america wanted an answer now and I um

(13:52):
Also, we knew that it was going to be a I think I think we knew it was going to be an unconventional war
That is not fought with a defined front line. So
Um
The when I showed up, uh
I wrote a letter to the press affairs office in new york city for the us army
explaining what I'd written and that I was interested in learning more about these special forces soldiers

(14:18):
whom I'd learned about through this um
Reveal of john walkerland and the cia this battle called
college angie
um, they referred me to
I believe for brag where I met
a general main
Jeff Lambert now retired
and he referred me to

(14:38):
uh lieutenant john
um, lieutenant colonel john mahullen
Now general john mahullen retired
Who is the commander of fifth group special forces at four camo kentucky?
So I just and then I ended up going also to mcdill air force base where socom is
I went to the 10th mountain division in fordrome new york because
10th mountain soldiers of the regular army were a quick reaction force

(15:02):
for college angie
um, I went to afghanistan
I've I found um
Afghan national army soldiers on the other side of the wire at college angie and so on over and interviewed them
um, it's just thousands of hours of interviews
um
Some of my home, you know when I when I asked um

(15:26):
You know mark uh, then major mark mitchell now retired. Um, you know what what he did the day that he um
That he left for afghanistan
um, and if you've seen the movie 12 strong which is based on my book horse soldiers
You know, you can see them get all spun up and they're they're shopping at rei and etc

(15:47):
and walmart buying batteries and sleeping bags because it's happening so quickly
but they have to kind of police themselves up
and um buy these things on the open market
and we can talk about that in a minute, but which special forces is uniquely trained to do
and differently than the uncon than the conventional army soldier
We can make that distinction a little bit, but when I asked mark

(16:11):
What he did that day
I didn't ask him like what was your operational plan or
You know what I said, what'd you do and he says well, I took my daughter
Sheet mcdonald's I think and we had a happy meal
And then I went home and packed
My knapsack and I said, oh, what's your knapsack?
He said well my two years of work

(16:31):
He said well my toothbrush and us news and we'll report
You know, you always ask the next question the details are what make these
What make all of us come alive to each other?
You know, um
and
so I was interested in
The journey the mental the professional

(16:54):
um
Psychological psychological journey and the really physical hardship of this journey of these men as they move to
across the landscape in afghanistan and really did achieve
a unique
Victory I wasn't interested to put a button on this
I do remember talking with a

(17:15):
weapons
Sergeant on on one of the teams
Mike elmore like
Mike said I can't tell you what I uh, you know, how how many
Um
What the batteries weighed that we carried in our radios?
And we were at fort camble. I think just talking in the team room

(17:38):
On the post there and I'm like mike. I don't know what do you mean?
Well, if I tell you how much they weigh then the enemy will know how many calories we have to consume
To carry to you know, how much energy we expend to carry that much weight
And I said listen
I said listen, I don't want to know that what I want to know is what you did in the cave

(17:58):
Um when you were getting ready to ride on these horses
Against the Taliban he goes. Oh well, I was drawing
sketching uh
vinyl album record covers
in my notebook
I don't know for for either
AC DC or black Sabbath or something. I said, okay, that's the detail

(18:21):
So
That's the thing that we
Neighbors as Americans we we can relate to that and then we can begin to see who you are as you do this really
unique and
You know
outstanding kind of

(18:41):
maneuver, um, you know in afghanistan so that
That's how I got the information just ask and ask and ask
Yeah, and like you said thousands of hours of interviews. I imagine, you know, just
Taking notes and notes and notes about those those types of details and um
Reading reading that part in the book about rei and and all the um, you know, they have to get all this equipment so fast

(19:06):
I believe you refer to it as they were given the pentagon's golden credit card or something like that
Yeah, I think a couple of the guys had um
Had
uh
Referred to is that I do want to stress for all of us
Here is that how unique the situation is if any of us have ever been in the army or worked for corporations

(19:30):
You know, you think back
How rare it is that your boss or senior person gives you the latitude to think like that on your feet
Especially in the army or any kind of the arm arm forces because that you know
The chain of command is a sacred thing and things start to go right when people are moving outside their own

(19:51):
Taskings sure, you know to take initiative, but the training of special forces actually
Is meant to allow them enable them to be able to think for themselves
And and operate how they see fit
How they see fit um
to see
To be able to operate in ambiguous situations, you know, you asked how I got this information. I spent

(20:16):
Maybe five days at camp mccall
Uh doing something called robin sage and any of those who were in sf or
Uh, maybe seal or I mean every every
Elite group has this um
exercise where you really are put through the ringer in real time

(20:36):
And so you had a group of young captains and young teams
They were trying they're trying to earn their green beret. So they hadn't been minted yet and they come into this place called pine land
Um near four Campbell and
Maybe for a week or two weeks. They they live this real real time scenario
Where they are the they are the um special forces

(20:57):
Special forces team they link up with a quote warlord who is the
Running pine land. Okay. Uh, well not running pine land, but he he wants to overthrow pine land. So pine land is his own government
And the um
SF teams and the warlord the insurgents

(21:18):
Right, they're going to have an insurgency to to take over pine land. So how do you do that?
Well, you get infiltrated in the dead of night by pickup truck in this case in Afghanistan
It was a Chinook helicopter, right and then you walk into the
Um, what's called the g chiefs or the gorilla the warlord the quote warlords camp
And you try to build rapport

(21:40):
with these um
fighters
many of whom might be farmers or
Otherwise professional soldiers, but it's all it's grassroots homegrown
Now in in pine land when I was there these roles are actually played by local people. Oh really
Who play in the community? The war the warlord was a really interesting guy who was actually in the saunte raid in vietnam

(22:07):
Um, um, he was playing because he knew he knew the drill. You know, he knew what special forces is and was and so he was playing the
Gorilla chief and his job is to make it very difficult and challenging for these young americans
Teams to actually build rapport with his group. He has that in-depth knowledge to challenge them in that sense

(22:27):
to show up with a gift
And then you get invited into the campfire at night, you know to build rapport
To try to ask so you and I like for sitting here talking if I if I were coming into your house and
I was the sf team and you were you were saying the um, you had your own cadre of

(22:48):
Fighters, I would want to know cody like what your religion is how much money you had what grievances you had
What language you spoke? What was your religion? I would know all these things. What are your relationships?
Everything about you. I do all this area study before I show up and I would try to find common costs with you
One of the motto's of sf is to work by with and through

(23:11):
So by you know
With and through so you and I are going to
Figure out a common goal and we're going to
Work together turn our attention
To get it and it's very hard to do and you know that the conventional army is fighting symmetrical battles
using kinetic

(23:34):
Means you know blowing up things up breaking things shooting things and these guys actually dying out on the fact that they don't have to shoot their weapon
It might actually be like kind of a Jedi and do a mind-meld with their opponent
And get things to come to a resolution without any violence
And it's a very different

(23:57):
Approach to uh to war fighting
And that's what made the story unique
Yeah, that uh, so a little you know like microcosm from your book like that that kind of like
Gaining rapport stuff just reminds me of the russian vodka for general Dostum. Yeah. Oh, right like those little those little things, right?

(24:18):
um, that kind of gets your foot in the door
And to be able to find out that you know that kind of information and and build that
Cohesion that you need to
Exactly which in afghanistan, I would imagine is just especially with the language barrier has has to be so much more difficult for you
For these guys during this operation

(24:40):
So special forces spends a lot of time in monorail at the language school studying different languages
For which their group is a task to go into and in this case because it just happened
You know, no one had been studying dari
Etc or
Persian
But there were enough russian speakers and arabic speaker

(25:00):
Whether arabic speakers on the team and their translators that they could communicate
With the afghans
What I want, you know this thing about building a force. So we started the conversation by saying, you know, there were
Different groups atajiks uzbeks his eras and past dunes right and they played in each other. So
You and I now we're on this special forces team. We enter into this

(25:24):
Village and we we try and the cia did this
This was there one of their main tasks before the the main
SF contingent arrived was to go through and make sure
All these different groups were going to work together
In common cause to push out the taliban that they were going to stop fighting each other

(25:45):
And like I said work by with and through
Each other alongside the special forces soldiers and so
That that is a you know to manage
That that is a you know to manage that is a very different
doctrine
Sure in conflict resolution than just the regular army

(26:06):
Yeah, I I would imagine so I mean and reading and also reading about that part
In the book like we're talking about is like this idea of like the northern alliance you have these warlords who are you know those
um
They're bitter rivals like you're talking about right. Yeah, they're bitter. Yes, they are and but it floats

(26:27):
I think it gets bitter and more less bitter and then it modulates over time but um
to know
How to think ahead it was was part of their training. Um
What the special forces are looking for is a person who is resilient
Not necessarily the fastest runner or the biggest weightlifter, etc. Right, but the person who can pop up

(26:52):
after defeat and keep going
and um
Who's adaptable?
Who isn't who isn't rattled by you know ambiguous situations? Um
I was watching one of these training sessions during robin sage at camp mccall and this um
Um form this retired special forces soldier who had been part of this famous raid called the saunte raid

(27:18):
Which would be an interesting maybe episode for you at some point in vietnam
He uh, he turned to the american captain and he said show me show me what's in your pocket
And the young captain like just really froze now. I should say
That there are um

(27:39):
instructors
In the bushes and black t-shirts watching this roleplay go out and they're kind of guiding the exercise
And communicating with the g chief who's who's a civilian and etc
and so
The instructors had told the g chief that this young captain had a bit of intelligence in his pocket
And so when the the chief said this

(28:02):
He didn't know what to do because he wants to build rapport. He wants to be invited into the campfire
He wants to work with this person, but he can't disclose this intelligence because that um
is uh
That's not allowed to skip right and so the the gorilla chief he says well if you don't
Show it to me. I'm going to be one of my men

(28:25):
and he raised he raises a cane and he's about to strike them and um
The captain is just really having a hard time figuring this out. What should he do? Right?
Should he save?
He can't because if he is witness to this human rights violation
Um, he has to leave
Okay, and he doesn't he doesn't want to leave but at the same time he can't disclose what's in his pocket

(28:50):
There's really not a right answer here, right, but um
So the instructors came out of the um
The shadows here and stopped the exercise
It was just fascinating and they had to talk with the team and said now listen here. You have a problem
um

(29:10):
But the the lesson of this is that this problem didn't start in this moment
It started the other day when you didn't notice that the gorilla chief did x
or
He was watching you in this way
That anything that happens to you is not really just a matter of that moment
that as a special forces soldier you have to be supremely aware of

(29:32):
of um
Well really at at heart the the culture and the rhythms and the needs and wants of your counterpart
So that you're extremely aware of what they and try to anticipate what they might do what they might ask for
So you don't find yourself at this crossroads here where you don't really have a good outcome
Right and that's a very I just found that really uh, you know

(29:58):
To write these an interview um was had really fascinating lessons about life itself because
um
What they're really trying to train these uh people to do is to get along with people
Yeah, no and that that makes total sense because like the situation that you're explaining there is
It's kind of a psychological effect too. You're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place

(30:20):
And there's you know, you're in a situation that there may not be a right answer
Or a right situation or a right path to take but
You're gonna have to choose one
And what and what might the best one be? Yeah, that's right. And and if you run through these scenarios enough and
and you study up on

(30:41):
um
You know the rule of lawfare you you you can hopefully make the the better decision
But um, it takes a long time to
You know when when afghanistan kicked off in 2001 these special forces soldiers were 35
You know late 30s. They're older the very seasoned

(31:03):
Army soldiers and um
And so they had a lot of world experience, you know, they were a lot because many of these men were um part of desert storm, correct?
Um, yes, somewhere as young
Young captains or lieutenants, um, right exactly right. Yeah, they'd come out of west point or they'd enlisted and then were part of

(31:24):
Desert storm and um
Opted into special forces, which you have to volunteer for and then pass all this
very rigorous, um
You know mental and kind of physical
training to get in right
Yeah, I've um, you know like buds buds for the navy seal

(31:44):
And and green berets. I've read some things on on their, you know training and exercises and stuff and I'm
I'm glad I'm glad they go through it and they're willing to because
I I'm like wow the the the physical component and the mental component of
Um, you know, what special forces and operators do is some of it to me is just unfathomable

(32:07):
To kind of the human mind and I think that is what makes you know a lot of
These men that we're talking about very unique
As human beings and as you know, soldiers in a story like this that we're talking about very unique, but in case of the
the class of
Special forces soldier I met in 2003

(32:29):
And and onward, you know was very humble. They looked often like um
You know, uh, your high school biology teacher worked out. You know, there was nothing about them
Because often they also would grow their hair out and change their grooming to go somewhere and work covertly
Right because then you you look like, you know, your point is to blend in and not look, you know, uh,

(32:51):
Right soldier ask
And the thing I can say about 12 strong the movie is they did not turn it into a Rambo movie
Or a or a seal movie. They really you know, the seals do one kind of thing. They're much more kinetic. They're much more direct action
They they would be infiltrated and when they had to go in and attack and raid a camp and take it down

(33:12):
You put in that we put in the SF teams in 2001 because we wanted to build common cause with these
Four ethnic area groups that were fighting each other and push them and push them against the Taliban
Because we didn't have we we we couldn't
We we couldn't bring in an army

(33:32):
Just to fight them
Quote on our own, you know, and also the realities this was
This was the afghans fight
You know, they they were uh
A leader named maha kek the hasera
Um from the center of the country when he heard of vinyl 11. He said finally the americans are going to come

(33:54):
Um because they had the reason the book is called horse soldiers one thing we haven't talked about is they had been fighting
This guerrilla war against a superior force my e the taliban, which also had a small air force. They had tanks and armor
and
You know more Toyota trucks
These various groups had

(34:17):
hardware to
ammunition
weapons, but
They a lot of them were mounted on horses, right?
And that was because
So they would fight a battle to take ground
And they would take the so they they would charge under let's just we'll talk about
Abdul Rashid dosed him just for a moment. Yeah, absolutely

(34:39):
He would lead a charge across open ground
Take a Taliban the defended position which should be defended with
you know armor and and tanks and
the interesting thing is that
The modern weapon could not adjust its fire
quickly enough
To take out the horses, right?

(35:00):
So the animal was moving and adapting and changing more rapidly than the armor could
Could could respond so
When the horse charge overwhelmed the Taliban line it would retreat, you know the tanks would turn the trucks would turn
They'd met go to the next hill
And then turn around and then they would begin to blast

(35:21):
The alliance there are other alliance on the other side of the
Alliance there are other alliance off the hill they had just taken. Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry
I don't mean to cut you off, but uh like when you talk about dostum in the book
He honestly, he's one of my and I'm gonna use the word characters for lack of a better term
But he's one of my favorite characters in the book because of I mean like what you're talking about right now

(35:45):
This this horse is riding the battle. I think there was one part where you're talking about he's riding past his own men
into like
into a charge and
And to me it's just like here's your here's this leader
And he's like come on boys like like the guys are almost embarrassed that he's riding past further than them into this Taliban line

(36:08):
Yeah, that was a there was a
One attack they were losing the initiative on and he he he turned and
And went back into it. You're exactly right. Um
He he's you know, he's been on horse because that's their means of transportation
They also can retreat and go places that the trucks
Can't necessarily go right

(36:30):
And so yes that that's dostum adaptive
Uh
opportunistic
He he and no friend of the Taliban. He's from
Ma Ma Zay Sharif the northern part which is
Northern part which is
quote-unquote
More liberal and it's social mores

(36:53):
You know
He you know women could go to university in mazay shariq and etc
And ethnically he's Uzbek correct
That's correct. Okay. Now. He did work with the soviets during the soviet invasion
And then he then he worked against the soviets. It was said about dostum that you could never really have his fullest

(37:14):
Uh loyalty, but you could rent it. He's very shifty
Yeah, so I met him. I interviewed you asked about how I got suffrage. I interviewed
Dostum I interviewed
Atta who was the
Tajik leader in the north
To go to the why is it called horse soldiers? Is why special forces and why were they ideally suited for this?

(37:39):
If you would ask if you had deployed, um, oh
I mean a brigade of uh, or a couple companies of regular army conventional wars war soldiers
They landed at Dostum's camp to get out of the helicopter
And he said we're gonna go fight
And the americans go how are we gonna get there and he goes by horseback. Yeah

(38:03):
Typically the conventionally trained soldier would have said well, we can't do that right
Um, they would never have been really in their training been confronted with this question
So, uh
But however the special forces soldier had been
And so while many of them except mark newtch
Uh, didn't have much experience or any at all on the horseback. They all said well, certainly we can do that

(38:28):
We're just gonna make this up as we go along keep going with the flow
Keep adapting here and and thereby they also building rapport with Dostum because oh well
These guys, you know, they're not going to need me to hold their hand. They can keep up. They know what's going on
and um
What really changed the game to get to the to the short of it is
We talked about this horse charge and overwhelming the mechanized line

(38:53):
which would then re attack and and and and win again is
the americans came armed with uh
So quote smart bombs or j-dams which were fitted with gps mechanisms which could either using a laser
Or by punching in coordinates
Be dropped and then hit these positions. So as

(39:16):
Just before for instance
um
Or as the bat or during the battle
The this mechanized line of taliban could be destroyed from the air
Yeah, right thereby removing the chance for the taliban to re attack and take the land back. So in in this
manner the um
The americans and the africans have been moving

(39:39):
And and taking ground from the south up to maize syrief which they finally captured on november
Ninth and tenth or 2001 right uh the the horse component
So my wife and I both my wife's been riding horses since she was five
She's got a her dad lives in steamboat, colorado
They've they have horses they they live on a big property and we were

(40:03):
Literally laughing out loud at some of
the interactions
between first of all
The sf on the ground and the pilots above
There's an interaction between between them and I I don't remember
Who was in the book? I think it might have been nelson or maybe mitral. I'm not sure
But when he says to the pilot he's like we're on horses and the pilot says back to him like you're on what?

(40:28):
Right like he like the pilot can't believe what he's hearing that you know you're you're fighting a war on a horse
Yeah, and
Yeah, I just there's there's components of your of the book of how it's written and you do such a good job
And and audrey and I were talking about this like there's like this comedic relief
In the middle of these amazingly tense situations

(40:50):
Well, I mean
Yes
I think that's true. You know this this dark humor
um
Provades a lot of you know these military experiences or any any kind of
life-threatening, but it's
It is true that it turns out that doce them while a very serious character

(41:13):
Uh, you know he when he hears a woman's voice
Come over the radio
From an ac 130 gunship overhead
Which is firing in taliban?
Um, just it's a massive extremely destructive
Platform correct

(41:34):
He's you probably remember this from the book. He's shocked because
he he says oh he says
The americans think so little of the taliban that they've sent a woman to kill them. Yes. Yes
and
Uh, I'm not I don't know
Well, he's but he he then radios that
On his walkie-talkie to the taliban right to taunt them

(41:58):
um
Her name is allison black. She's recently retired
and and either he or someone gave her the nickname the angel of death because
um, there were lots of you know, there were other gunships, but um
That stuck in his mind. So he was very savvy and using
Um, this kind of uh

(42:20):
Psychological warfare against the enemy
On the other hand the sf guys like we talked earlier about always being one step ahead of your counterpart
At one point they're riding into a village which they had which the afghans because remember the there's
12
special
12 men special forces team, right

(42:41):
There are two of those then there's a command and control team that comes in
There are cia officers as well
Um, there and then there are other people attached and there's air force combat controllers attached to the special forces team
But it's a small number and so the
The the the northern alliance fighters are numbering in the hundreds
And then you know in each in each different group

(43:04):
um and dosten wants to raise the american flag on the um
truck or the john deere gator that they're going to ride through in this town on and um
The colonel says no
We're not we're not going to raise the flag
Right and ghostin's like why he says well because that will well he

(43:26):
That will that will raise the the um the message everyone that this is an american victory and it needs to it is your victory true
That's right anyway, and also the colonel
uh colonel um was aware that
Dostin would be very happy
To see for people to see that he had the americans with him, right?

(43:46):
So the americans did not want to be played in that way
um because they were also
at times over the radio
Asking the americans to bomb a certain position on the battlefield and after they
Checked it. They realized that really what the the person had asked for was for the americans to bomb an enemy

(44:08):
Yes, an enemy and not necessarily the taliban not necessarily the taliban, but another enemy of the civil war that's going on
Is that correct?
Yeah, exactly a grievance or just yeah perfect. Yeah
um
Yeah, that's uh
I remember that from the book as well like even the pilots above are like that's a toyota or a truck

(44:31):
I can't bomb that and it that's not a military vehicle
And he's like well or he's saying that it's taliban so
um
Yeah, they had to make sure that you know, it wasn't a rival faction
And it was taliban before they operated on that right now would be the ground elements job
The special forces team to just to figure out the translators

(44:53):
So, you know, we're being told we need to attack this position. Is that is that really a taliban position?
What what they also told the air was you know, if you see anything on wheels
It's taliban because everything else is either on foot or on a horse
So, um on your website, you have a great picture of you
Um, I believe you're sitting at the fortress of uh, collie johnny. Is that correct?

(45:18):
That's correct. Yeah, what year did you go visit afghanistan?
And I just want to know what that experience was like. Um
And and how seeing these places incorporated into your writing of the story
Well, I went back in 2005
For a historical review to go back to the battlefield areas and to interview people who might still be there

(45:39):
Who had taken part and at one point I found ali sarwar
Uh in mazah-shareef and he'd been at the battle of kalajangi
And he was now in the afghan national army. So I walked with ali
all through the fortress
And he narrated the battle for me from his point of view. Oh, wow
So when you see that in the book, that's ali talking to me and me then

(46:03):
um merging that with um
The oral histories and after action reports of the americans who were in there. Oh, wow, that's that's really cool
and so that was essential, um, especially to because the
the battle scene was, um
Very big and then there's a person who gets blown up but not killed

(46:23):
So, I mean, it was just really going person to person and tracking them down by phone
Or flying to where they were and sitting down for, you know, four or five hours and
Starting at the beginning. There's that but going to afghanistan then just gave me another perspective on the street, you know, talking with um
Young, you know, in this case, it was young men who had been there now working as translators and getting their oral histories, you know

(46:50):
I have a clip somewhere. Um, maybe facebook, um
Which is just Doug Stanton. That's my author page, you know, of interviewing on the street, you know
Tell me what this looked like in 2001
And then they would I'm just filming it and they're saying well, there would be bodies piled over here
So it's it was a it was invaluable. I went back in 2010 as well

(47:12):
Um, oh, so you went you went back a second time
I did the second time was with the nato party. Um, and the chief political advisor to nato
Had invited me and so I was there with other people from other countries and and
um, I recently wrote a really long brand new chapter for horse soldiers

(47:34):
Which that 2010 trip was was incorporated in as well
Because I tried to um when we came up to the 20 year mark
of 9 11
Um, I wanted to go back and just ask everyone
What was it all about? What did we lose and where did we win and I interviewed

(47:56):
I don't know maybe 20 different people diplomats spies
Um soldiers. Yeah generals and and it was very sobering and Shannon span
about her husband her then husband's
Mike's death and what did that mean and um
And jr seager now a friend and now by the way is retired from the cia's and novelists

(48:18):
A wonderful novel is writing spy novels and um steampunk. Oh really?
And jr jr remains incredibly invaluable about you know
What went on there? What's going on there today?
So this you know, but going there kind of allowed me to talk with shannon about that because I was near the place where the attack

(48:40):
I stood in the place where the attack happened
And I could talk with jr then about what I'd seen and so you really have I mean if you can go to the place
Where the action has happened? I did the same with the book. I wrote about the vietnam war and and that one is the
Odyssey of echo company correct, right?
Yeah, I'm about to hit up amazon after our conversation here and and get in harm's way and the Odyssey of echo company

(49:03):
One thing people ask me is like how how'd you come up with horse soldiers and to be honest?
before when they deployed in 2001 they didn't have a name right so the book the book really named them
You know they they went by they called themselves
Kind of unofficially the regulators after a steven king novel. Oh, yeah the regulators. Okay

(49:23):
And so I'd worked on this book for five years in my editor editor-in-chief at scribner collin harrisons
We were talking about tidally so lists called the horse soldiers
and um, it stuck and so
That's in the new chapter. I write about there's a wonderful
Statue now at ground zero. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah

(49:45):
and
Our family took part in the dedication and it's unofficially called the horse soldier statue and then they um
Mark newtch and bob pennington who's cal Spencer in the book and a couple other people
Started a bourbon company called horse horse soldier bourbon. Yeah, that's that's the bourbon. We've been highlighting
Yeah in this four-part series

(50:07):
I heard you. Yeah, but that that comes from collin coming up with the title because
The idea of calling it the regulators bourbon would have been kind of a
non-starter
Yeah, I mean it is that's really cool. I mean, that's a great part of this conversation is I yeah
I had no idea about that that that comes from
Your work as well and then you have the bourbon now and the distillery and that's a really cool

(50:32):
Uh connection. Yeah, Alex Hernandez who is the CIA officer
A part of this pilot team. He's a fast-dank career. He rides motorcycles
around the country and he'll stop in michigan where I live and I have a ducati like alex does and so
When he stops by we go on a ride, but he's now become an ambassador for the bourbon too
So he'll ride around and go to different liquor stores and they have um stories

(50:56):
Where the soldiers will tell a war story and they'll have the bourbon for sale. It's kind of interesting. Oh, that's that's pretty cool
Yeah, alex finally brought me a bottle of it because no one had
had yet
Sent me one and I like the stuff. It's really pretty good. He signed it for me. It was pretty cool. That's really cool
I'm actually drinking a glass of it right now as I'm interviewing you for a little celebration for myself here

(51:19):
Oh good, um, but the first place that I had tried the bourbon actually was out here in galena, illinois
My wife had a gift card from her cousin for christmas and we went to a
Small place on the strip in in galena and it was part of their
bourbon tasting and that's actually my inspiration of

(51:40):
buying your book and reading the story
And then
Finding the bourbon as well. I really enjoyed it as well. So that's my take on how I've come to interview you
One thing I want to say is that the book
And the movie focused really on one team although that had pseudonyms in the book correct because at the time

(52:03):
The soldiers were
Uneasy about having their identities disclosed. It makes sense. Yes
But they've since retired to move beyond that. I mean in
2010 as I talk about in this new chapter, I walked down Fifth Avenue behind the horse soldier statue
With them in a parade. So obviously, you know, the world had changed

(52:24):
and
Um, so I use pseudonyms though at their request, which is fine. However, if you're above I think the rank of major at the time
It's still be true. You had to use your true name
So you'll see like mark Mitchell is actually mark Mitchell correct and Mulholland as well. Yeah, and then but mark newt
She's actually Mitch Nelson. Gotcha. Okay, but in

(52:47):
in
In the book there are two major teams dean. No, sir. Oh is captain of
Oda five three four and and uh, Mitch Nelson is captain of Oda five nine five
And they really both played a monumental role along with their afghan park counterparts and
In effecting this victory

(53:08):
And dean and his team just really haven't received their share of the spotlight to be honest. I don't think they want it
but
It's I just wanted to point out that this wasn't just the five nine five team that really
Dean and his crew
And actually dean came to my house in michigan for about three days and we sat and interviewed each other
I interviewed him and and then I went down to fork Campbell and talked to a lot of the

(53:33):
Rest of his team just um, you know, they need to be called out too
And because the the the movie stops
Uh
As they write into mazzeh sharrief and does not cover the second half of the book. Oh wow
Um, my wife and I were saying we we didn't want to watch we didn't want to watch the movie until the this podcast series was done

(53:59):
We didn't want us we didn't want to spoil. Well, I already knew from reading her book obviously
But we didn't want anything she didn't want to spoil it for herself
So we are going to watch the movie very soon here. Okay, and that's a very interesting fact is that um, so that's where the movie ends
It ends with writing into mazzeh sharrief
Which is a big deal because that was their objective to capture it
Other things are going on. They're just by the way for everyone

(54:21):
You know, there are other teams now other special forces teams other quote oda's operational
Detachment alpha deployed around, you know, the country that are fighting with their own afghan counterparts to take ground
In cities as well
So in this case though they take uh mazzeh sharrief um and uh

(54:46):
And and achieve their goal and that's where that's where the movie ended
So I know we're short on time here, um, but I do want to just ask you that question really quick because you just mentioned it
What was it like to see your book turned into this hollywood movie? Well, it was it happened
um, it took 10 years and then it happened all at once

(55:08):
Um, and I told mark, uh, and I told bob and the crew that if they just were patient
they could um, when they retired they would have a speaking career
and um, you know and and and other things good things that happened to them because of the
Of the of the publicity from the movie. In fact, you know, they started horse older bourbon and used the movie a lot to

(55:32):
To promote it. So from that point of view, um
It was successful from a
personal point of view just
It was um, it was very satisfying because like I said, it did not become a Rambo movie. I mean the Jerry Bruckheimer and
Nikolai Fugelsig
tried very hard
To make this a movie about an American and an Afghan talking about how to achieve victory here

(55:59):
So you don't while there's a lot of action
It really does get into the nuance of this was called
Unconventional warfare and for those of us listening, I mean, they're not just talking about the
U. S. of us listening. I mean that actually is a thing, you know, it sounds like
But unconventional warfare is different from conventional warfare. Absolutely or it's called uw and um

(56:21):
So, you know for jay breckheimer to make a movie about things where people are trying not to blow something up
Was a challenge and so hats off to him for making this
Movie and I and it was successful because it really was and we this is probably a great place
And it really was a victory and as I say I wrote a book and there's a movie about the first 10 minutes of a 20 year war

(56:44):
But what it really showed was that how you could achieve
victory how you could
Work with partners
in a way that was more reminiscent of world war two
and the os s
those american trained
guerrilla fighters dropped behind enemy lines in france to
You know work with the locals

(57:07):
To then fight the nazis. This is that's what happened here. Yeah, it worked
Now what happened in afghanistan is it got very big and it became a very very different kind of war so to talk about
2020 and 2001 is is to talk about two different worlds
um

(57:27):
The regular army does not really is not fond of and does not trust the unconventional army. Um, it's threatening because
You do not have if you deputize the young captain special forces captain on the ground
In afghanistan and as a response to you know, the biggest terror attack in america you deputize that person to make

(57:51):
decisions, you know about
The standing of us in the world by by kneeling down the dirt and drawing with a stick
You know a plan with afghan
warlord, uh, that's a lot of responsibility and trust you place in that one person
and it's it's uh, it's threatening to a more conventional army mindset and um

(58:15):
I'm not in the new chapter. I talk about how that may have led to the fact that it just got to be a very big war
um
By its end and a very different kind of war
so
the movie was snowers to see
um them
take
To make that kind of movie and to be on the set and in albuquerque new mexico

(58:40):
Was really fun and then to sit in the theater with my mom and my sister
And my wife and our our kids and just watched the movie start up and um tom brokaw was there. That's amazing. He came
He's just tom brokaw when I wrote in harms way
Gave an incredible boost
He has done so much for so many writers. We've since became

(59:04):
friends and then
Uh, you know matt damon came up and said to my mom. You must be really
proud
Proud of your son. That's amazing. Which is like very funny and you know, so
And I just thought you know what this this rarely happens to a writer and it's
This is really fun and I'm just going to enjoy it and it's phenomenal

(59:26):
So for the moment it is. Yeah, I I can't wait to watch it
I and like, you know, I think I said in our first phone call. I'm embarrassed. I haven't watched it yet because that's a movie
That's like right in my, you know strike zone
Um
And I just this whole story has just you know gone over my head and it's not like me to miss a story like this and I'm so glad

(59:47):
that I um, you know came across the I came across the bourbon and I'm very glad that I came across your book because I have to say
And this is not me at all tooting your horn here. It is probably one of the
best
Books that has put me so immersed into a story with so much detail
Um to where I actually just felt like I could picture what I was reading and

(01:00:13):
Um the comic relief in it that dark humor we were talking about earlier. Uh, that just you know, that hit me right right in the fields
Um, yeah, I I absolutely love that and it was it's just a great book and I can't I can't thank you enough for writing it because
Honestly, it it was something as a as a history teacher and a history lover

(01:00:36):
Um that I really just enjoyed reading. Thanks, Cody. That means a lot and um, I wish you and audrey well with the podcast
I appreciate that. Okay. Well, thanks for having me. Well, Doug. It was a pleasure. Um, thank you so much for coming on the history on the
Rocks podcast to to give us this interview. We really appreciate it. All right. Take care. We'll see you again
You as well.