April 18, 2024 • 47 mins
In Part three, the American Special Forces fight their way up through the Tiangi Gap on their way to Mazar-al-Sharif!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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The following four parts of this series are an adaptation of Doug Stanton's Horse Soldiers,
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a number one New York Times bestseller.
Paraphrasing of the published work is used with credit to the author.
Some of the names in this story are pseudonyms to protect the identity of those involved.
The comments and reactions displayed in this podcast do not reflect the opinions or views of the author.
(02:16):
That's good.
(02:47):
All right, welcome back to the History on the Rocks podcast.
This is your host, Cody, and of course, joining me, my wife, Audrey.
Hello.
We are back for part three of Horse Soldiers. This episode is called Into the Gap.
All right. I'm excited to see where this is going.
(03:10):
I hope everyone's having a good week. We are still promoting Horse Soldier Bourbon,
but we're not drinking Horse Soldier Bourbon on the episode today.
Not today.
What are you drinking?
I am drinking a Blu-Man.
Yes, and I'm drinking a Cors Banquet.
Not because we didn't want to drink whiskey.
(03:33):
No, not tonight.
It was beautiful outside today, and we did a little bit of day drinking.
Yeah.
So whiskey was a little heavy for this hour while we were recording this.
So we're drinking some beers, but still a shout out to Horse Soldier Bourbon,
which we've been drinking.
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Delicious.
The first part and second part.
As I wrote part three, I do want to let everyone know that there will be four parts to this.
I don't want to rush the story.
Yeah.
That's the thing.
But the exciting part is we are going to have Doug Stanton on for an interview next week.
I'm interviewing him on Monday, so that'll be part of our part four.
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But I want to highlight the last part of his book,
Kali Jongi, the fortress that we're going to get into a little bit today at the end of this episode.
I want to highlight the conflict there in its own part.
So yeah, this is going to go to part four.
I'm kind of excited that it's part four because I didn't want to do like a two hour.
(04:39):
An hour and a half to two hour episode for part three.
That's tonight.
And I just feel like it makes sense because like I think the Kali Jongi part will only take about
30 minutes to tell.
And then the last part will be the interview with Doug about Horse Soldiers, the book.
And we're going to talk a little bit about 12 Strong too, the movie.
I can't wait to watch that too.
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I know we haven't watched it yet.
We've been putting it off.
Yeah, I feel like I want to finish this off and then.
Yeah, I kind of was thinking the same thing.
Like I want to.
I don't want to have it ruined.
Right.
Yeah.
For you, yes, I don't want to ruin it.
But like and that's the other thing like the book, there's so much missing from what we've
been telling in the podcast.
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We're really just like we're talking about the special forces,
but there's so much more to Doug's book.
So if you're interested in the story we've been telling so far and you want to like see
the in depth of it, you have to go to Amazon or Doug's page, wherever borders.
I don't even think borders exist anymore.
Bards and nobles.
Wherever books are sold.
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Wherever books are sold.
Horse Soldiers, it's phenomenal.
And it might be called 12 Strong.
Now I'm still confused about that a little bit, but.
Either.
Either or 12 Strong or Horse Soldiers, it's the same story.
And if you see Doug Stanton, his name on it, it's that book.
All right.
So where we left off with part two is that Master Sergeant Pat Essex and Ben Milo,
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they had just been dropping bombs on the Taliban.
And Ben Milo had jumped up out of excitement of his bomb hitting the target.
And that was our cliffhanger.
Yeah.
So we're going to start part three talking about the end of that battle with Master Sergeant Pat Essex
(06:35):
and Ben Milo.
And did they escape or not?
Master Sergeant Pat Essex grabbed Milo and pulled him down as the situation began to escalate.
The Taliban were charging straight at them up the hill as their Afghan allies spread out
and returned fire trying to hold them off.
Essex is firing his weapon here.
And again, it's this comical gunfight where he's seeing the expressions of these Taliban's faces.
(07:01):
And like, again, they're comical to him.
Like the way that Doug writes it, it reminds me of like watching Looney Tunes.
Like seriously, like.
Like cartoons.
Yeah.
Just running around.
One Taliban fires a RPG at him from about 100 yards away and the rocket doesn't even make it
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like up the hill and it explodes like halfway to him.
And Essex shoots at this guy's feet and he jumps up.
And as I imagine, like a cartoon character, right?
Like like Bunny or someone or like when Elmer Fudd is shooting at bugs, right?
Yeah.
Like jumps up and like runs away.
Like that's what Doug makes it out to be.
Like it's just so funny in my head.
And this actually makes Essex laugh out loud when he like sees this guy jump in the air.
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But more and more Taliban are charging up the hill.
So again, there's this comic relief in such a time like.
Times situation.
Times situation.
Thank you.
But they're being literally like charged by the Taliban up this hill and they are chasing them down.
That'd be pretty scary and not comical, but.
Exactly.
But Essex is still laughing at like the expressions on these guys faces that he's shooting at.
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It's just it's funny.
A pilot above had dropped a bomb called in by McWinehouse that completely wiped out the Taliban
charging up that hill.
Essex turns to tell his Afghan allies, but they are already gone.
They've they've taken off.
The only Afghan left on this hill with him is a security chief and he's yelling at Essex and
Milo basically like we got to go like we got to get out of here.
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Now, Winehouse was trying to get the pilot to drop more bombs, but the pilot relayed that he
wasn't willing to drop any bombs close to friendlies.
After what is probably seconds, Essex demands that the pilot drop the bombs and he eventually does.
Seven of them blow all around them and somehow none of them are injured.
(09:00):
Well, I mean, that's good.
Yeah, but probably still scary.
I don't know.
I can't imagine seven bombs going off around you and you're not hit by one thing.
Yeah, it's just amazing to me.
So they just got up, packed up and started running as they are running down the hill.
Winehouse is still calling in bomb drops to hit the Taliban behind them.
They are then confronted by a Taliban ahead of them.
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They shot at them and the Taliban jumped and hid behind this hill.
The men just kept running towards safety.
Now Milo looked back through his binoculars at the ridge they were just on top of.
And there was a Taliban guy eating his MRE.
They're the little meal packets that they have on the go.
Now Doug throws some comedy in here again as Milo's like direct thought was
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quote like he's eating my fucking lunch and quote.
And why then replots coordinates of the hill and Milo is thinking enjoy my lunch buddy
because you don't know what's about to hit you.
And sure enough, boom, bomb destroyed everything within 500 feet of its target.
Killed the guy eating his lunch.
And they were just still not hit.
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Which is just yeah they're just crazy.
They know what they're doing apparently.
Well obviously.
It's either they know exactly what they're doing or they're just getting really lucky doing it.
Yeah for sure.
10 miles back to the west of Essex and Milo's position, the assault on Balook was about to occur.
Heavy bombing of this area and fighting had been going on all day.
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The Taliban were holding the area tightly.
Okay so if you look at the map I used a source I found online
to actually find the coordinates of these positions.
So I had the exact they released all this to the public and it's in a report.
And I actually had the exact coordinates now on our Google map.
If you're taking if you're looking at it.
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You can see exactly where Balook is now.
Based on the coordinate data that was released after several years.
Now the plan was for Dostum sub commanders to lead an attack after the pilot above hit the Taliban line with bombs.
Now somehow Nelson's orders got misconstrued and the sub commanders thought he said to attack now.
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There's a big problem.
You have around four groups of a hundred riders charging a line where bombs are about to hit from the pilot above.
So 400 men in total.
They're riding pretty much towards their death.
Because of this miscommunication.
Dostum being Dostum just yells into his radio for them to keep charging.
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He's like yep just keep going.
Don't stop or anything bombs are coming in but just keep going.
Oh no.
Tank and heavy machine gun fire immediately combated them as they approached the Taliban line.
The bombs hit just as Nelson saw the Northern Alliance riders disappear behind a ridge.
And then just after the explosions they came out of the debris still charging.
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So like perfect timing.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Those bombs hit just in front of them to where nothing hurt them and then they just started to hit the bomb.
And they could still just ride through the pretty much the cloud of smoke.
Wow.
Now the Taliban were in retreat.
The night after the retreat of the Taliban in Balook.
Dean's team and Ata's men continued their assault on Akkabruk and took it from the Taliban.
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So that was that little village we were talking about last episode where there were women and children that were
in duress there and they couldn't do anything about it at the time without blowing their cover.
This sent the Taliban in retreat both to the east and the west.
So now the Taliban they're not even holding anywhere in the valley like they're starting to move north
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and being pushed back.
Reinforcements from Pakistani madrasas and al-Qaeda tried to help the Taliban but there was no use.
The NA was advancing so rapidly the Taliban were heading straight to the Tiangi Gap.
Again you can see this location on the map where they could regroup and reorganize.
Their defenses against the advancing Northern Alliance and American special forces.
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After the teams had faced their own conflicts in the valley they resumed their push north to meet up at the village of Shoghure.
Diller hadn't seen Nelson in 10 days since they split up at the Kobaki outpost.
As they rejoined and rode through the streets of Shoghure there was a mass of people in the thousands lined up to see the Americans.
Diller ordered his men to keep their guns up as they knew that again just like back in Dehi there could be a sleeper cell of Taliban amongst the villagers.
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He radioed over to Mitch Nelson asking, quote, dude where are you?
End quote.
Diller was tired of walking at this point.
Surprised to hear his buddy's voice coming over the radio Nelson told Diller he was about a mile north of his position.
Just then Nelson came speeding up on one of the six-wheeled Gators and both men were extremely relieved to see each other.
Now the teams next challenge would be the Tiangyi Gap.
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Doug describes the gap as, quote, about a mile long cut through the mountain ridge that divides the country's wilds from Mazar and its more civilized metropolis 20 miles to the north.
End quote.
This Tiangyi Gap it's known as what is called a choke point.
We talk about this in human geography.
A choke point is pretty much whoever controls this point has the advantage of controlling a region economically and politically.
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And at the Tiangyi Gap whoever held the high ground held control of the area.
This choke point is made of very tight mountain walls, right?
Like you have to maneuver through like this little valley.
A choke point can also be like a usually it's in like a gulf like the Persian Gulf has a choke point.
It's like a small sliver of water to pass through like a canal almost.
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Essex Winehouse and Milo had started to traverse the steep slopes of the gap as bullets flew from Taliban shooting wildly at them in the dark of night.
They had to walk their horses up the rest of the way to the summit, which they reached roughly around three in the morning.
As they observed this mountain top, it was baffling that the Taliban had yet to take this open high ground.
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Essex thought now that the Taliban must be extremely deteriorated and unorganized after the previous days of fighting like back in Balook.
Sounds like they're just kind of stupid.
Yeah.
I mean.
Stupid or strategic.
In what way?
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Well, let's read on.
Okay.
The men tried to get a little bit of sleep at the summit and being worried about the Taliban closing in on them in their early morning hours, they laid claymore mines around their perimeter.
The morning fog kept them in cover until the sun appeared and the fog dissipated.
As a view of the mountains became clear, Essex spotted enemy trenches and vehicles.
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He called in airstrikes immediately.
The pilot, however, first refused to target the Toyota trucks Taliban were using, afraid they could possibly be friendly or noncombatants.
Now Nelson chimes in over the radio, stating, quote, any military vehicle on the battlefield be at liberty to destroy, end quote.
The pilot still hesitating.
Then her Nelson exclaimed, quote, all friendlies are either on foot or they're riding horses, end quote, which the pilot asked him to repeat the part about the horses.
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Nelson simply replied, quote, we're riding horses, end quote.
Something that they're not exactly used to.
Exactly.
The pilot is in like utter disbelief and he even questions Nelson and he says, quote, you guys are doing what?
End quote.
Like, again, comic relief, but like a serious situation like this is a serious conversation.
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Like this is actually the quote that Doug is writing about that the, you know, I'm guessing the men told him.
And it's just, it's funny because it's like, did you just say you're right?
You're on horses in the middle of a war.
You have no like military vehicle.
You're not in like a truck or a humby or something.
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The Toyota trucks that they see.
The hell is going on here?
Ben Milo identified roughly 12 targets that they began to destroy immediately.
Shortly after they were met by enemy fire, rockets were soon smashing their location.
See the Taliban knew to let them have that high ground and now they're going to ambush them.
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In response to the rocket attack, Dostam's men dug in for cover among the ledges and outcroppings of the mountain.
Horses exposed were hit with shrapnel and lay in agony.
Oh no.
I know. I'm sorry.
I had to add that in there though because this has a lot to do with the horses.
I know. Like the whole time I'm like, oh, I don't want to hear about horses dying.
And you're like, I mean, Doug doesn't really write much about the horses dying, which is kind of nice because like, no, I don't want to talk about animals dying either.
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That's the word.
Which is again, this weird thing as a human that I have of like, I can watch like, I can read about all these like, Taliban dying.
I can watch war movies.
I can watch the beginning of Saving Private Ryan where it's D-Day and everyone's getting ripped to shreds.
I can watch all that.
But the minute a dog dies in a movie, I'm like in tears.
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Yeah. It's the same for horses with me though too.
Well, that's what I'm saying. Like animals in general.
Well, yeah, pretty much animals in general, but.
It's just a weird complex in my mind that it doesn't bother me to like see humans, I guess, get ripped apart, but like horses, dogs, animals.
Animals.
Don't do it.
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I know.
That is the worst.
Now, after the barrage of rockets, the teams were worried that the others were dead.
Mitchell, Dean, Essex, Dostom, the Afghan soldiers, all of them.
Everyone worried about the other.
Making the moment even more tense, communications had broken down and no one could reach anyone else on the radio.
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No.
Sergeant First Class Sam Diller was now stuck in a tense spot.
As there was a break in the rocket fire, he went to jump back in his saddle and he heard rockets being launched again.
His horse bucked him off the back and took off.
Oh no.
Diller raced after the horse, afraid that he would lose the animal or an Afghan soldier would claim it for himself.
And sure as shit, as he looked up when he was running, an Afghan had reached for the horse, but Diller grabbed the reins out of his hand and yelled at him.
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Diller tried to leave the horse back down the hill, but the horse wouldn't move.
Diller punched the horse in the jaw and dragged its head down just as rockets hit its location.
Now, I don't think he did that.
I don't think he punched the horse out of anger.
I think he punched the horse to try and get it to save it.
You know what I mean?
He was trying to keep the horse alive and get it to move.
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Yeah, because the horse seems like it's scared.
Oh, it's terrified, but it won't budge.
So I think he hits it to be like, when someone smacks you over the head, like, hey, get back into it.
Yeah, for sure.
So I just want to, I don't think he's abusing it.
He's not trying to abuse the horse.
He's trying to get the horse to safety pretty much and get it to duck down.
Yeah.
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Diller was thrown hard, his horse staring down at him as more rockets splashed around him.
So I'm just like, I'm laughing because I'm like just picturing, like getting thrown off a horse and then just seeing its giant head over you like, hey buddy, you okay?
For sure.
Gentle giants.
Yeah, gentle giants.
The Taliban weren't targeting anyone specifically, just spraying the area hoping to get lucky from the backside of the Tianyi gap.
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This massive rocket attack had halted the NA soldiers and Mitch Nelson knew something had to be done quickly in order to keep advancing.
As the men regrouped on the summit of the surrounding mountain of the gap, Nelson started to advance through the canyon.
So below them.
Taliban vehicles and bodies lay everywhere from the previous air support strike.
The Taliban had put mines in the river, so Nelson had to be careful maneuvering through.
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As he did, Afghan soldiers started to emerge from the surrounding rocks.
When he looked back, he had roughly 300 men following him through the gap.
As they reached the halfway point of the gap canyon, Nelson was relieved to find Colonel Bowers and General Dostom alive and well.
They continued through the gap and rejoined with the teams that were climbing down from the summit.
Everyone was alive, the gap was cleared and the teams were ready to move on to Mazar al-Sharif.
(21:25):
How about like, like everyone's alive?
I don't know.
I guess that's just like kind of crazy to me if like all this shit's happening and getting rockets and guns and whatever.
It's like, how do you like not get hit? I guess.
Let's put it this way.
I can't speak on behalf of Afghan soldiers if they all made it through, but primarily what we're talking about is the special forces soldiers and they all make it through.
(21:51):
Okay. So like maybe some Afghan soldiers might not have made it.
Yeah, if I remember correctly, there might have been, there's many Afghan soldier deaths because again, they're just firing rockets blindly trying to keep them back.
Yeah.
From advancing through the gap and just trying to get lucky.
If you're seeing the pattern of rocket fire, like you can fall back, I'm guessing, and avoid most of it.
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And then once it like starts to finish, advance forward and find new cover.
Yeah.
So it's just, it's, I think it's just this game of cat and mouse.
It's just luck finding places to hide in the, in the mountain there and avoid being hit by the rockets or any of the debris.
Yeah. Okay.
Makes sense.
So as the rocket fell, Ata and Dostam agreed that both groups of soldiers would not leave until dawn.
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Ata had more vehicles and was ready to go, but Dostam's horses and men needed a rest.
They also agreed this would be a mutual victory for both factions.
Ata, however, already had men inside Mazar holding specific areas.
Ata was a step ahead of Dostam taking control of the situation and the city.
Ata was utilizing satellite phones to talk to Taliban leaders and negotiate defections and the strengthening of his forces with those Taliban who would surrender.
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With the Northern Alliance and American Special Forces just outside Mazar, the Taliban were packing up and moving out to the east to the city of Konduz.
Now there's this negotiations between Ata and Dostam.
And the special forces aren't getting in the way of that.
Like they're not, they're not dictating the situation.
They're letting Ata and Dostam take control of their situation.
(23:27):
Yeah, take the lead and take control of the situation.
And so that's very important to understand here because, again, Ata's men are motorized.
They're in trucks.
They have cars.
They're not on horseback, most of them.
Dostam's men are.
So like Ata and Dostam are having these conversations and the special forces are just not getting in the way of it.
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They're letting the two handle the situation there, there just to support.
Yep.
Okay.
So just a little bit of clarity as we move forward here.
Reports out of Mazar where that Osama bin Laden was hiding in the nearby village of Balkh, which is about 30 miles west of Mazar.
You can see that on the map as well.
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The teams believed it was doubtful and that the citizens of Mazar were trying to cash in on the reward money.
That morning with Mazar in sight, teams took off out of the mountain gap and crossed the flat plains of northern Afghanistan.
So now they've gotten out of the mountains.
So where Mazar is, you can see on the map, this is flat now.
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There's no more treacherous mountains and hills.
We are on flat ground.
All on horses.
Dostam's men.
Yeah.
On horses and the American forces on horses.
Yeah.
It's a long travel in those uncomfortable saddles.
Oh, he has swear about to see that in a minute here too.
The men spurred their horses on with the vehicles following behind them.
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As Americans joined with the Northern Alliance soldiers entered the city, Nadeer Shihab, a carpet shop owner, recognized them.
He thought, finally, now Afghanistan will be free and I will be free.
The arrival of the teams turned Mazar on its head.
Taliban still present in the town tried to blend in amongst the citizens.
However, following the relief of the American arrival, the citizens began to attack the Taliban out of revenge.
(25:23):
A major problem occurred, however, as the news of the victory of Mazar spread across Afghanistan.
Osama bin Laden had been granted citizenship.
It was no longer just a guest in the country.
This would allow him to be protected by the Taliban government of Afghanistan and not be handed over to the Americans.
Now, Otto was put on notice by his intel within Mazar that there were Taliban who refused to surrender and had barricaded themselves in one of the schools located in a highly active neighborhood.
(25:50):
Otto warned Dean Nasarag about the threat, told him to trust no one, and make sure that the blue mosque, the most important religious site of the city and also the center of the city, was not harmed in any way.
So you can see that on the map as well.
I marked the blue mosque.
It sits right in the middle of Mazar.
It's a giant piece of the city.
It's a huge structure, very gorgeous building.
(26:12):
The streets of Mazar are empty.
There are dead bodies stacked up on the side of the roads.
People are relieved of the arrival of Otto's forces in the Americans, but still know a Taliban threat is in the area.
Now, Doug refers to Mazar in his book as a giant chessboard.
And if you zoom in above the city on the Google Earth, you can see the grid-like layout.
The Taliban were still lurking throughout these neighborhoods, hiding out in houses, businesses, schools, etc.
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Now, as the men carefully patrol the city, Otto's men booked it over to Mazar Airport,
which is a huge strategic advantage for the NA and the Americans,
and makes Otto a big player now in this war as he holds this position.
Dostom, whose men are still on horseback coming out of the Tianyi Gap, he is pissed.
He's pissed that Otto broke their agreement and entered the city without him and made it to the airport first.
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So, instead of being distracted and irate over Otto's move, Dostom decides that he isn't going to bother with Mazar right now.
He is going to go and take the fortress of Kalai Zhangyi as his power base.
Now, we've talked about Dostom mostly as a general and a fearless soldier through this journey.
However, at the height of his power in Mazar in the 1990s, Dostom is actually a stoic leader and a philanthropist.
(27:24):
Doug points out in the book that he, quote, operated his own airline, programmed his own TV station,
printed his own money, funded schools, and encouraged women and girls to attend, end quote.
Things to Taliban absolutely abhor.
Mazar even had one of the few sanitary water systems in Afghanistan and the residents had electricity running 24 hours a day.
(27:45):
Mazar was a striving metropolis in the 90s because of Dostom.
Now, as Dostom was exiting the gap and figuring out his next steps,
Otto's men were going street by street in Mazar trying to clear out the Taliban.
Gunfights broke out in the streets in which families would have to hide in their homes and pray when the shooting stopped that the Taliban were gone.
Now, Otto did lose some men during this raid.
(28:06):
However, Taliban and al-Qaeda soldiers were on the run.
The school in which the Taliban were holding was an all-girl school in which they, meaning the Taliban,
quote, scratched out the eyes on all of the photographs because they believed the Quran prohibited
the display of these images, end quote.
So like pictures of girls in school and their faces and not being covered.
(28:28):
Yeah.
Now, Otto's men approached the school ready to confront the Taliban, whether a negotiation or a firefight.
The latter would occur instantly.
As Otto's men walked up to the school just about 100 feet away, the doors flew open and gunfire erupted.
The Taliban came running out, unpin their grenades and got as close as they could to Otto's men blowing themselves up and taking some of Otto's men with them.
(28:52):
More and more Taliban came running from the building as Otto's men tried to keep up and kill them before they could get too close.
However, Otto's men were forced to retreat to safety.
The Taliban continued to riddle the neighborhood with bullets.
Very tense situations happening very quickly.
All while this is happening in one neighborhood, Dean and his men were driving through the entrance of Mazar being welcomed by women, men and children yelling blessings at them,
(29:17):
waiting anxiously for the final assault on the Taliban.
Dean noticed people returning to life as they knew it before the Taliban occupation.
Shops were reopening, kids playing in the street, men shaving off their beards, music blasting from boomboxes.
What's a boombox?
It's truly a remarkable scene to him.
As gunfire erupted during this large gathering, the Inners just relieved to see its men shooting in celebration, not an attack on the convoy.
(29:45):
Yeah, that's nice.
Now before Dawson would worry about Kali Jangi, he decided that he, his men and Mitch Nelson's team would also take a ride into Mazar.
Cal Spencer took Dawson for a ride on the gator he was driving, knowing that the general also wanted the parade of power and victory with the Americans by his side just as Otto did earlier in the day.
After the statement to the people of Mazar and Dawson's victory lap, the team headed toward a large structure in the near distance just outside the city.
(30:13):
It was the fortress of Kali Jangi, which in English translates to quote, House of War, end quote.
This is where Dawson and Mitch Nelson's team would now operate from.
Dawson is back in his fortress where he controlled in the 90s.
So when they, when, like you talk about how they like take the city back, like what's to say that the Taliban wouldn't return.
(30:43):
You are just so ahead of me right now.
Okay.
You are.
I mean, I have not read any of this.
Right, exactly.
You're just, you're, you're ahead of the game right now.
Let's put it that way.
Okay.
So save your questions because you're about to find out, you are, you're about to find out like, so they're retreating right now because the Northern Alliance is, is it, they're advancing so fast that the Taliban doesn't have the reinforcements right now to hold them off.
(31:08):
So they're going to leave Mazar and go to Kandunz.
Right.
And that's where in Kandunz is where they're going to pretty much regroup and, and try to reorganize.
Now the last of the teams to arrive in Mazar at the fortress was Sam Diller's team.
He had finally made it.
Diller and the Afghan men with him had the longest march into the city about 20 miles.
(31:33):
Now his horse did not want to like go any further.
Okay.
I'm done.
Yeah.
But Diller was like, you know what, I have rode and fought my whole way through Afghanistan.
I am, he's like, I'm riding you into this fortress.
Yes.
We are finishing out.
And he is in so much pain.
(31:54):
Like he's in so much pain from riding this horse that they like Doug, Doug depicts him
as like grinning kind of like an idiot because he's trying to like ignore how much pain he's
in.
Yeah.
I like, yeah, can't even imagine.
Yeah.
It's actually pretty funny interaction when you, when you read it in the book, he's like
talking to the horse as if it's, you know, like it's going to respond to him.
(32:19):
And the horse is like dead.
Like it's dead tired.
It doesn't even want to move.
Oh gosh, I'm sure.
And he's like, we're going to me and you.
You're making it.
Me and you buddy, we're walking.
I'm riding you into this damn fortress.
We've made it.
Now, everyone had made it from Dehi to Mazar al-Sharif in just two weeks.
Isn't that amazing?
Like, I feel like we've been talking like we're in part three.
(32:42):
We're like halfway through part three right now, just a little bit over.
And I feel like we've been talking about months and months of them moving through the Darya
Souf Valley.
And it's been literally two weeks that all this has happened.
And it's crazy to like think that this is just like the beginning of the war.
(33:05):
And it lasted a long time.
Not just a few weeks.
Yeah.
And we're not making political statements on this podcast.
Nope.
You're talking Cody.
Now Dean's team was holding up in a local residence house named Najib Qorishi, who spoke
perfect English and aspired to be a reporter on the ground, essentially.
(33:28):
He was enamored by the Americans arrival and to have them in his house was like having
celebrities over for dinner.
Najib asked the Americans too many questions and his excitement.
And Dean wondered if he was a Taliban mole, which he wasn't at all.
He was just very excited that the Americans were there and just wanted to, you know, just
like you would like be like, Hey, if I now were to sit down with a celebrity, I'm going
(33:49):
to ask him every question possible.
Yep.
Dean immediately wanted a new safe house, not liking the situation, even though he was
wrong about Najib.
He was just being cautious.
Yes.
Very cautious right now.
It was in a moment's notice.
Dean started her gunfire ring out around the city.
He had also just received the news of Ata's men being attacked at the local girl school.
(34:11):
Dean ordered the team to go check out the situation at the school as he directed their
operations from the safe house.
Stu Mansfield and Brian Lyle were the first two of the American teams to arrive at the
Sultan Razia school.
That's also pinpointed on your map.
They assessed the situation from far enough away to not be in the line of fire.
Inside the school were mostly Pakistani al-Qaeda fighters who were left behind by the retreating
(34:35):
Taliban.
Because remember, these al-Qaeda, they don't care.
They'll blow themselves up.
They don't care.
Yeah.
The Taliban, they'll retreat.
They'll defect.
They'll switch sides.
The Afghan Taliban, if they get the chance, they will fight for the Northern Alliance.
But these foreign Taliban, these foreign al-Qaeda fighters, they don't care.
(34:59):
They're there to kill.
Yep.
And be killed by themselves, basically, if they're going to.
For their cause, yeah.
Ata believed he could get his men in there to negotiate with the men in the school.
They were worried about attacking the school directly due to collateral damage of the surrounding
homes and the nearby blue mosque that they don't want to destroy or have anything happen
(35:20):
to.
Dean suggested a laser precise bomb drop on the school.
However, Ata already had gotten men inside to negotiate by this time and didn't want
them to be casualties in a bomb drop.
The negotiations failed as the men were slaughtered by the al-Qaeda fighters as they approached
the building.
The book, I believe Doug writes that these men that were sent to negotiate were holding
(35:42):
Karan's up as like a sign of peace to the al-Qaeda fighters to let them in and like,
Hey, let's just talk about this.
And then they ended up killing them.
Because that's what al-Qaeda does.
Yep.
Back at Kala Ejangi, Dostom wanted bombs dropped immediately, but Ata again refused and told
Dostom his men had surrounded the building.
(36:02):
Dostom had told his American team, including Spencer Nelson, what he wanted done.
Nelson and Spencer were clueless to his previous conversation with Ata and didn't know the
whole situation on the ground.
So this is important.
Nelson and Spencer, they do not know that Ata's men have the building surrounded and
that Stu Mansfield and Brian Lyle are there.
(36:25):
It's a whole different team.
Yeah.
Acting with Ata.
And now Dostom's men, they don't know the situation.
Dostom just tells Nelson and Spencer, Hey, I want to bomb this building.
Yeah.
Dostom tried to convince the Americans by pointing out how good Nelson was at laser
guiding bombs in.
Colonel Bowers and Nelson, however, believed Dostom was acting too quickly and hundreds
(36:46):
of civilian lives were at risk, dropping Ornance in such a tightly packed neighborhood.
Nelson's team had arrived at the school.
Sonny Tatum, Air Force Combat Controller and Mike Spann of the CIA moved from building
to building to find the best spot to target the school.
Tatum gauged in the building about 300 yards from their position, which was too dangerous
to call in an airstrike without being at risk of being blown up as well.
(37:09):
Tatum also didn't have a clear shot with the laser.
It was too risky with all the buildings between him and the school being around the same height.
So he knew he would have to get even closer to be accurate and almost impossible task.
However, there was another option.
Tatum told Spann, they need to get over to the school in order to pick up its GPS coordinates.
(37:30):
They made their way to the building undetected.
They shuffled along the outer walls of the building, writing down the coordinates on
every corner.
Tatum was on high alert thinking they'd be spotted by the Al Qaeda soldiers inside at
any moment.
Luckily, they weren't.
After they were done, they hurried back to a tall building for overwatch.
Tatum quickly radioed to the lead F-18 pilot overhead that the building was a T-shape.
(37:54):
The pilot confirmed the visual.
Then Tatum sent along the coordinates him and Spann had gathered.
They both squatted and waited for the jet fighters to approach.
Now here's the kicker.
Dean's team working with Atta's men, who were attempting more negotiations inside the
building and luckily hadn't been killed yet, did not know that Nelson's team was there
plotting a bomb strike.
(38:17):
So this is what I was talking about with Atta and Dostum not giving their teams all the
information.
Now, Brian Lyle was trying to reach Nelson at Kalei Jangi, but his radio was not working.
So he had no idea that Nelson knew of the siege at the school.
He also wanted to let Nelson know him and Mansfield were present at the school observing
the siege.
Dean, back at the safe house, also realized that the teams entered Mazar at such different
(38:41):
times in the day that no one had updated each other on locations.
So this whole situation at this girl, all girls school is happening and everyone's finally
going, huh, wait a minute, I haven't heard from them in a while.
Now, they were all working on current situations so quickly and oddly enough, it would happen
(39:02):
to be the same situation.
Dean and Master Sergeant Brad Highland were about to leave and head over to the school
when boom, giant explosion very close.
Dean saw how close the mushroom cloud was and was very surprised.
The safe house was only about three or four blocks away from the school.
Dean thought, quote, who the fuck just dropped that bomb, end quote, and then immediately,
(39:27):
quote, Otto's men just got smoked, end quote at the school.
Dean now was fearful of the fact he would have to notify Otto that the United States
military just killed his men.
Tatum over with span at the Overwatch building ordered a second airstrike.
The GPS guided bombs had struck directly in the center of the building.
In an instance, Al-Qaeda soldiers ran from the building and started to disappear.
(39:51):
Now there was another problem.
Mansfield and Lyell were two blocks away from the school when the bombs hit.
Immediately Otto's men, who were with them at their truck, started to look at them like
they were responsible.
Mansfield held up his radio and started shouting that he had nothing to do with the airstrike.
There was much confusion and so many what ifs going through their heads.
(40:11):
Mansfield knew Otto's men had just been killed and felt horrible.
He also knew that Dean had arrived at the scene and it was possible he could have potentially
been in the building too.
As more and more men started to exit the shattered building, Tatum continued to call
in immediate strikes before the men could escape and disappear.
Tatum feared these men being loose in the streets, but noticed that citizens and neighbors
(40:31):
were chasing down the men attacking them.
It was their revenge since the 1998 Taliban and Al-Qaeda joint takeover of the city.
Dean was back at the safe house waiting for Otto's return.
He was feeling terrible just like Mansfield was, that he had to reveal this news to Otto
and although he didn't call in those bombs, he still felt responsible for Otto's men
that had died.
As Otto entered the room, Dean could tell already that he knew of the situation.
(40:56):
However, Dean was very surprised when Otto exclaimed to him, quote, these things happen
in war.
These nine people will not change the outcome of the war.
It is very sad, but we understand, end quote.
Now Dean realized that Otto was speaking with wisdom and understanding and not cold-heartedness
as Doug in his book describes this interaction.
Interesting.
Yeah, so Dean was like so worried that this was going to be like backfire on him and Otto
(41:21):
is going to be pissed and Otto pretty much was like, it is what it is.
Well we killed Al-Qaeda guys too, didn't we?
And this is a war.
So it's true.
You're going to lose people.
Exactly.
With the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fleeing to Kondunz, the war shifts in a more eerie direction.
(41:42):
Around 250,000 people live in the area of Kondunz, which is now swarming with Taliban
and Al-Qaeda extremists.
Now this is the city just east of Mazar that they're all kind of regrouping in.
General Dostam does not want to get into an urban altercation at Kondunz, knowing that
he is at a major disadvantage.
(42:04):
What he does next errs on the side of diplomacy and politics.
He summons his arch-rival and Taliban commander Mullah Faisal to Mazar to negotiate terms of
Taliban surrender.
Dostam figures if he can get Faisal's 10,000-man fighting force off the chessboard, Kondunz
will be easier to take out of their control.
Dostam wanted Faisal to have the Al-Qaeda men of his group surrender.
(42:28):
The Taliban amongst his men were more than willing to do so already.
Faisal in return wanted safe passage from Kondunz to Herat, which was about 60 miles
to the west of Mazar.
So to get to Herat they'd have to come through Mazar from east to west.
Faisal even offered up $500,000 for the safe passage.
(42:50):
The negotiation ended in an agreement and a handshake.
They went out and announced the terms.
13,000 Taliban and Al-Qaeda soldiers would surrender in Kondunz.
Dostam cheerfully declared this was the end of the war with the Taliban and that the Taliban
should not feel defeated but rather feel reunited with their fellow Afghans.
(43:18):
Dostam was also now elated that he could strengthen his fighting force and acquire tanks and weapons
from the surrendering Taliban.
Not to mention he also had $500,000 more.
Now Faisal and his men loaded up in their trucks and left the fortress.
(43:39):
Colonel Bowers did not like the feeling he was having about what just occurred.
Like we just said, this handshake agreement seemed too good to be true to him as well.
Bowers thought Dostam was overconfident in his ability to force the surrender and maybe
even overlooked his power.
He also may have thought he was naive to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
(44:00):
Faisal was also quote vague about the surrender end quote.
Furthermore Faisal failed to tell his men that they would first be held prisoner before
being allowed to travel through to Harat.
He did not mention that the Afghan Taliban would be let go and the Al-Qaeda members fate
was yet to be decided.
He just told them that any car with a picture of Masoud or Dostam on the window would be
(44:25):
allowed passage.
He purposefully withheld this information from his men so that they would take action.
The money given to Dostam was just a smoke screen.
Faisal was planning to attack Mazar to retake the city.
He just needed to buy some time.
Faisal knew taking back Mazar would send the Americans packing and the country would fall
(44:46):
back into total Taliban control.
On November 24th 2001, 600 exhausted Taliban soldiers had walked and driven to the outskirts
of Mazar.
These men were there to surrender to Dostam at Kali Jangi and be given safe passage to
Harat.
What would happen next would be an ambush leaving one American dead in a grueling fight
(45:10):
for control of the giant fortress.
Yes, unfortunately we are going to have an American casualty but the cliffhanger is who
is it so definitely stick around for our last part.
(45:32):
The finale.
The finale of our horse soldier series about the siege at Kali Jangi and following that
we will have the interview with New York Times bestselling author of horse soldiers
Doug Stanton which I'm really excited about.
Yeah, it's so exciting.
(45:53):
So we're going to get Doug's perspective.
We're going to ask him a few questions about the book, how his again book was turned into
a Hollywood movie, his experience going over to Afghanistan and seeing these places he
was writing about it's going to be a really cool interview to put the exclamation point
(46:13):
on this four part series.
So please, please, please make sure you tune in next week for part four.
Yep, I'm excited.
Oh yeah, me too.
Very pumped for that.
Thank you everyone again for listening to the history on the rocks podcast.
(46:38):
We hope you enjoyed part three of horse soldiers.
Again, join us next week for part four and our interview with Doug Stanton.
I hope you guys have a great weekend.
Get some drinks in, relax.
Anything else from you?
Have a great weekend everybody and we'll talk to you next week.
Cheers.
(46:58):
Cheers.
Leave a Ulster.
The following four parts of this series are an adaptation of Doug Stanton's Horse Soldiers,
(00:04):
a number one New York Times bestseller.
Paraphrasing of the published work is used with credit to the author.
Some of the names in this story are pseudonyms to protect the identity of those involved.
The comments and reactions displayed in this podcast do not reflect the opinions or views of the author.
(02:16):
That's good.
(02:47):
All right, welcome back to the History on the Rocks podcast.
This is your host, Cody, and of course, joining me, my wife, Audrey.
Hello.
We are back for part three of Horse Soldiers. This episode is called Into the Gap.
All right. I'm excited to see where this is going.
(03:10):
I hope everyone's having a good week. We are still promoting Horse Soldier Bourbon,
but we're not drinking Horse Soldier Bourbon on the episode today.
Not today.
What are you drinking?
I am drinking a Blu-Man.
Yes, and I'm drinking a Cors Banquet.
Not because we didn't want to drink whiskey.
(03:33):
No, not tonight.
It was beautiful outside today, and we did a little bit of day drinking.
Yeah.
So whiskey was a little heavy for this hour while we were recording this.
So we're drinking some beers, but still a shout out to Horse Soldier Bourbon,
which we've been drinking.
(03:53):
Delicious.
The first part and second part.
As I wrote part three, I do want to let everyone know that there will be four parts to this.
I don't want to rush the story.
Yeah.
That's the thing.
But the exciting part is we are going to have Doug Stanton on for an interview next week.
I'm interviewing him on Monday, so that'll be part of our part four.
(04:15):
But I want to highlight the last part of his book,
Kali Jongi, the fortress that we're going to get into a little bit today at the end of this episode.
I want to highlight the conflict there in its own part.
So yeah, this is going to go to part four.
I'm kind of excited that it's part four because I didn't want to do like a two hour.
(04:39):
An hour and a half to two hour episode for part three.
That's tonight.
And I just feel like it makes sense because like I think the Kali Jongi part will only take about
30 minutes to tell.
And then the last part will be the interview with Doug about Horse Soldiers, the book.
And we're going to talk a little bit about 12 Strong too, the movie.
I can't wait to watch that too.
(05:02):
I know we haven't watched it yet.
We've been putting it off.
Yeah, I feel like I want to finish this off and then.
Yeah, I kind of was thinking the same thing.
Like I want to.
I don't want to have it ruined.
Right.
Yeah.
For you, yes, I don't want to ruin it.
But like and that's the other thing like the book, there's so much missing from what we've
been telling in the podcast.
(05:22):
We're really just like we're talking about the special forces,
but there's so much more to Doug's book.
So if you're interested in the story we've been telling so far and you want to like see
the in depth of it, you have to go to Amazon or Doug's page, wherever borders.
I don't even think borders exist anymore.
Bards and nobles.
Wherever books are sold.
(05:43):
Wherever books are sold.
Horse Soldiers, it's phenomenal.
And it might be called 12 Strong.
Now I'm still confused about that a little bit, but.
Either.
Either or 12 Strong or Horse Soldiers, it's the same story.
And if you see Doug Stanton, his name on it, it's that book.
All right.
So where we left off with part two is that Master Sergeant Pat Essex and Ben Milo,
(06:08):
they had just been dropping bombs on the Taliban.
And Ben Milo had jumped up out of excitement of his bomb hitting the target.
And that was our cliffhanger.
Yeah.
So we're going to start part three talking about the end of that battle with Master Sergeant Pat Essex
(06:35):
and Ben Milo.
And did they escape or not?
Master Sergeant Pat Essex grabbed Milo and pulled him down as the situation began to escalate.
The Taliban were charging straight at them up the hill as their Afghan allies spread out
and returned fire trying to hold them off.
Essex is firing his weapon here.
And again, it's this comical gunfight where he's seeing the expressions of these Taliban's faces.
(07:01):
And like, again, they're comical to him.
Like the way that Doug writes it, it reminds me of like watching Looney Tunes.
Like seriously, like.
Like cartoons.
Yeah.
Just running around.
One Taliban fires a RPG at him from about 100 yards away and the rocket doesn't even make it
(07:24):
like up the hill and it explodes like halfway to him.
And Essex shoots at this guy's feet and he jumps up.
And as I imagine, like a cartoon character, right?
Like like Bunny or someone or like when Elmer Fudd is shooting at bugs, right?
Yeah.
Like jumps up and like runs away.
Like that's what Doug makes it out to be.
Like it's just so funny in my head.
And this actually makes Essex laugh out loud when he like sees this guy jump in the air.
(07:52):
But more and more Taliban are charging up the hill.
So again, there's this comic relief in such a time like.
Times situation.
Times situation.
Thank you.
But they're being literally like charged by the Taliban up this hill and they are chasing them down.
That'd be pretty scary and not comical, but.
Exactly.
But Essex is still laughing at like the expressions on these guys faces that he's shooting at.
(08:15):
It's just it's funny.
A pilot above had dropped a bomb called in by McWinehouse that completely wiped out the Taliban
charging up that hill.
Essex turns to tell his Afghan allies, but they are already gone.
They've they've taken off.
The only Afghan left on this hill with him is a security chief and he's yelling at Essex and
Milo basically like we got to go like we got to get out of here.
(08:39):
Now, Winehouse was trying to get the pilot to drop more bombs, but the pilot relayed that he
wasn't willing to drop any bombs close to friendlies.
After what is probably seconds, Essex demands that the pilot drop the bombs and he eventually does.
Seven of them blow all around them and somehow none of them are injured.
(09:00):
Well, I mean, that's good.
Yeah, but probably still scary.
I don't know.
I can't imagine seven bombs going off around you and you're not hit by one thing.
Yeah, it's just amazing to me.
So they just got up, packed up and started running as they are running down the hill.
Winehouse is still calling in bomb drops to hit the Taliban behind them.
They are then confronted by a Taliban ahead of them.
(09:23):
They shot at them and the Taliban jumped and hid behind this hill.
The men just kept running towards safety.
Now Milo looked back through his binoculars at the ridge they were just on top of.
And there was a Taliban guy eating his MRE.
They're the little meal packets that they have on the go.
Now Doug throws some comedy in here again as Milo's like direct thought was
(09:46):
quote like he's eating my fucking lunch and quote.
And why then replots coordinates of the hill and Milo is thinking enjoy my lunch buddy
because you don't know what's about to hit you.
And sure enough, boom, bomb destroyed everything within 500 feet of its target.
Killed the guy eating his lunch.
And they were just still not hit.
(10:07):
Which is just yeah they're just crazy.
They know what they're doing apparently.
Well obviously.
It's either they know exactly what they're doing or they're just getting really lucky doing it.
Yeah for sure.
10 miles back to the west of Essex and Milo's position, the assault on Balook was about to occur.
Heavy bombing of this area and fighting had been going on all day.
(10:28):
The Taliban were holding the area tightly.
Okay so if you look at the map I used a source I found online
to actually find the coordinates of these positions.
So I had the exact they released all this to the public and it's in a report.
And I actually had the exact coordinates now on our Google map.
If you're taking if you're looking at it.
(10:49):
You can see exactly where Balook is now.
Based on the coordinate data that was released after several years.
Now the plan was for Dostum sub commanders to lead an attack after the pilot above hit the Taliban line with bombs.
Now somehow Nelson's orders got misconstrued and the sub commanders thought he said to attack now.
(11:10):
There's a big problem.
You have around four groups of a hundred riders charging a line where bombs are about to hit from the pilot above.
So 400 men in total.
They're riding pretty much towards their death.
Because of this miscommunication.
Dostum being Dostum just yells into his radio for them to keep charging.
(11:32):
He's like yep just keep going.
Don't stop or anything bombs are coming in but just keep going.
Oh no.
Tank and heavy machine gun fire immediately combated them as they approached the Taliban line.
The bombs hit just as Nelson saw the Northern Alliance riders disappear behind a ridge.
And then just after the explosions they came out of the debris still charging.
(11:52):
So like perfect timing.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Those bombs hit just in front of them to where nothing hurt them and then they just started to hit the bomb.
And they could still just ride through the pretty much the cloud of smoke.
Wow.
Now the Taliban were in retreat.
The night after the retreat of the Taliban in Balook.
Dean's team and Ata's men continued their assault on Akkabruk and took it from the Taliban.
(12:17):
So that was that little village we were talking about last episode where there were women and children that were
in duress there and they couldn't do anything about it at the time without blowing their cover.
This sent the Taliban in retreat both to the east and the west.
So now the Taliban they're not even holding anywhere in the valley like they're starting to move north
(12:37):
and being pushed back.
Reinforcements from Pakistani madrasas and al-Qaeda tried to help the Taliban but there was no use.
The NA was advancing so rapidly the Taliban were heading straight to the Tiangi Gap.
Again you can see this location on the map where they could regroup and reorganize.
Their defenses against the advancing Northern Alliance and American special forces.
(13:00):
After the teams had faced their own conflicts in the valley they resumed their push north to meet up at the village of Shoghure.
Diller hadn't seen Nelson in 10 days since they split up at the Kobaki outpost.
As they rejoined and rode through the streets of Shoghure there was a mass of people in the thousands lined up to see the Americans.
Diller ordered his men to keep their guns up as they knew that again just like back in Dehi there could be a sleeper cell of Taliban amongst the villagers.
(13:30):
He radioed over to Mitch Nelson asking, quote, dude where are you?
End quote.
Diller was tired of walking at this point.
Surprised to hear his buddy's voice coming over the radio Nelson told Diller he was about a mile north of his position.
Just then Nelson came speeding up on one of the six-wheeled Gators and both men were extremely relieved to see each other.
Now the teams next challenge would be the Tiangyi Gap.
(13:53):
Doug describes the gap as, quote, about a mile long cut through the mountain ridge that divides the country's wilds from Mazar and its more civilized metropolis 20 miles to the north.
End quote.
This Tiangyi Gap it's known as what is called a choke point.
We talk about this in human geography.
A choke point is pretty much whoever controls this point has the advantage of controlling a region economically and politically.
(14:21):
And at the Tiangyi Gap whoever held the high ground held control of the area.
This choke point is made of very tight mountain walls, right?
Like you have to maneuver through like this little valley.
A choke point can also be like a usually it's in like a gulf like the Persian Gulf has a choke point.
It's like a small sliver of water to pass through like a canal almost.
(14:47):
Essex Winehouse and Milo had started to traverse the steep slopes of the gap as bullets flew from Taliban shooting wildly at them in the dark of night.
They had to walk their horses up the rest of the way to the summit, which they reached roughly around three in the morning.
As they observed this mountain top, it was baffling that the Taliban had yet to take this open high ground.
(15:08):
Essex thought now that the Taliban must be extremely deteriorated and unorganized after the previous days of fighting like back in Balook.
Sounds like they're just kind of stupid.
Yeah.
I mean.
Stupid or strategic.
In what way?
(15:29):
Well, let's read on.
Okay.
The men tried to get a little bit of sleep at the summit and being worried about the Taliban closing in on them in their early morning hours, they laid claymore mines around their perimeter.
The morning fog kept them in cover until the sun appeared and the fog dissipated.
As a view of the mountains became clear, Essex spotted enemy trenches and vehicles.
(15:51):
He called in airstrikes immediately.
The pilot, however, first refused to target the Toyota trucks Taliban were using, afraid they could possibly be friendly or noncombatants.
Now Nelson chimes in over the radio, stating, quote, any military vehicle on the battlefield be at liberty to destroy, end quote.
The pilot still hesitating.
Then her Nelson exclaimed, quote, all friendlies are either on foot or they're riding horses, end quote, which the pilot asked him to repeat the part about the horses.
(16:19):
Nelson simply replied, quote, we're riding horses, end quote.
Something that they're not exactly used to.
Exactly.
The pilot is in like utter disbelief and he even questions Nelson and he says, quote, you guys are doing what?
End quote.
Like, again, comic relief, but like a serious situation like this is a serious conversation.
(16:40):
Like this is actually the quote that Doug is writing about that the, you know, I'm guessing the men told him.
And it's just, it's funny because it's like, did you just say you're right?
You're on horses in the middle of a war.
You have no like military vehicle.
You're not in like a truck or a humby or something.
(17:03):
The Toyota trucks that they see.
The hell is going on here?
Ben Milo identified roughly 12 targets that they began to destroy immediately.
Shortly after they were met by enemy fire, rockets were soon smashing their location.
See the Taliban knew to let them have that high ground and now they're going to ambush them.
(17:26):
In response to the rocket attack, Dostam's men dug in for cover among the ledges and outcroppings of the mountain.
Horses exposed were hit with shrapnel and lay in agony.
Oh no.
I know. I'm sorry.
I had to add that in there though because this has a lot to do with the horses.
I know. Like the whole time I'm like, oh, I don't want to hear about horses dying.
And you're like, I mean, Doug doesn't really write much about the horses dying, which is kind of nice because like, no, I don't want to talk about animals dying either.
(17:55):
That's the word.
Which is again, this weird thing as a human that I have of like, I can watch like, I can read about all these like, Taliban dying.
I can watch war movies.
I can watch the beginning of Saving Private Ryan where it's D-Day and everyone's getting ripped to shreds.
I can watch all that.
But the minute a dog dies in a movie, I'm like in tears.
(18:16):
Yeah. It's the same for horses with me though too.
Well, that's what I'm saying. Like animals in general.
Well, yeah, pretty much animals in general, but.
It's just a weird complex in my mind that it doesn't bother me to like see humans, I guess, get ripped apart, but like horses, dogs, animals.
Animals.
Don't do it.
(18:37):
I know.
That is the worst.
Now, after the barrage of rockets, the teams were worried that the others were dead.
Mitchell, Dean, Essex, Dostom, the Afghan soldiers, all of them.
Everyone worried about the other.
Making the moment even more tense, communications had broken down and no one could reach anyone else on the radio.
(18:58):
No.
Sergeant First Class Sam Diller was now stuck in a tense spot.
As there was a break in the rocket fire, he went to jump back in his saddle and he heard rockets being launched again.
His horse bucked him off the back and took off.
Oh no.
Diller raced after the horse, afraid that he would lose the animal or an Afghan soldier would claim it for himself.
And sure as shit, as he looked up when he was running, an Afghan had reached for the horse, but Diller grabbed the reins out of his hand and yelled at him.
(19:24):
Diller tried to leave the horse back down the hill, but the horse wouldn't move.
Diller punched the horse in the jaw and dragged its head down just as rockets hit its location.
Now, I don't think he did that.
I don't think he punched the horse out of anger.
I think he punched the horse to try and get it to save it.
You know what I mean?
He was trying to keep the horse alive and get it to move.
(19:46):
Yeah, because the horse seems like it's scared.
Oh, it's terrified, but it won't budge.
So I think he hits it to be like, when someone smacks you over the head, like, hey, get back into it.
Yeah, for sure.
So I just want to, I don't think he's abusing it.
He's not trying to abuse the horse.
He's trying to get the horse to safety pretty much and get it to duck down.
Yeah.
(20:07):
Diller was thrown hard, his horse staring down at him as more rockets splashed around him.
So I'm just like, I'm laughing because I'm like just picturing, like getting thrown off a horse and then just seeing its giant head over you like, hey buddy, you okay?
For sure.
Gentle giants.
Yeah, gentle giants.
The Taliban weren't targeting anyone specifically, just spraying the area hoping to get lucky from the backside of the Tianyi gap.
(20:34):
This massive rocket attack had halted the NA soldiers and Mitch Nelson knew something had to be done quickly in order to keep advancing.
As the men regrouped on the summit of the surrounding mountain of the gap, Nelson started to advance through the canyon.
So below them.
Taliban vehicles and bodies lay everywhere from the previous air support strike.
The Taliban had put mines in the river, so Nelson had to be careful maneuvering through.
(20:59):
As he did, Afghan soldiers started to emerge from the surrounding rocks.
When he looked back, he had roughly 300 men following him through the gap.
As they reached the halfway point of the gap canyon, Nelson was relieved to find Colonel Bowers and General Dostom alive and well.
They continued through the gap and rejoined with the teams that were climbing down from the summit.
Everyone was alive, the gap was cleared and the teams were ready to move on to Mazar al-Sharif.
(21:25):
How about like, like everyone's alive?
I don't know.
I guess that's just like kind of crazy to me if like all this shit's happening and getting rockets and guns and whatever.
It's like, how do you like not get hit? I guess.
Let's put it this way.
I can't speak on behalf of Afghan soldiers if they all made it through, but primarily what we're talking about is the special forces soldiers and they all make it through.
(21:51):
Okay. So like maybe some Afghan soldiers might not have made it.
Yeah, if I remember correctly, there might have been, there's many Afghan soldier deaths because again, they're just firing rockets blindly trying to keep them back.
Yeah.
From advancing through the gap and just trying to get lucky.
If you're seeing the pattern of rocket fire, like you can fall back, I'm guessing, and avoid most of it.
(22:13):
And then once it like starts to finish, advance forward and find new cover.
Yeah.
So it's just, it's, I think it's just this game of cat and mouse.
It's just luck finding places to hide in the, in the mountain there and avoid being hit by the rockets or any of the debris.
Yeah. Okay.
Makes sense.
So as the rocket fell, Ata and Dostam agreed that both groups of soldiers would not leave until dawn.
(22:37):
Ata had more vehicles and was ready to go, but Dostam's horses and men needed a rest.
They also agreed this would be a mutual victory for both factions.
Ata, however, already had men inside Mazar holding specific areas.
Ata was a step ahead of Dostam taking control of the situation and the city.
Ata was utilizing satellite phones to talk to Taliban leaders and negotiate defections and the strengthening of his forces with those Taliban who would surrender.
(23:04):
With the Northern Alliance and American Special Forces just outside Mazar, the Taliban were packing up and moving out to the east to the city of Konduz.
Now there's this negotiations between Ata and Dostam.
And the special forces aren't getting in the way of that.
Like they're not, they're not dictating the situation.
They're letting Ata and Dostam take control of their situation.
(23:27):
Yeah, take the lead and take control of the situation.
And so that's very important to understand here because, again, Ata's men are motorized.
They're in trucks.
They have cars.
They're not on horseback, most of them.
Dostam's men are.
So like Ata and Dostam are having these conversations and the special forces are just not getting in the way of it.
(23:51):
They're letting the two handle the situation there, there just to support.
Yep.
Okay.
So just a little bit of clarity as we move forward here.
Reports out of Mazar where that Osama bin Laden was hiding in the nearby village of Balkh, which is about 30 miles west of Mazar.
You can see that on the map as well.
(24:12):
The teams believed it was doubtful and that the citizens of Mazar were trying to cash in on the reward money.
That morning with Mazar in sight, teams took off out of the mountain gap and crossed the flat plains of northern Afghanistan.
So now they've gotten out of the mountains.
So where Mazar is, you can see on the map, this is flat now.
(24:33):
There's no more treacherous mountains and hills.
We are on flat ground.
All on horses.
Dostam's men.
Yeah.
On horses and the American forces on horses.
Yeah.
It's a long travel in those uncomfortable saddles.
Oh, he has swear about to see that in a minute here too.
The men spurred their horses on with the vehicles following behind them.
(24:57):
As Americans joined with the Northern Alliance soldiers entered the city, Nadeer Shihab, a carpet shop owner, recognized them.
He thought, finally, now Afghanistan will be free and I will be free.
The arrival of the teams turned Mazar on its head.
Taliban still present in the town tried to blend in amongst the citizens.
However, following the relief of the American arrival, the citizens began to attack the Taliban out of revenge.
(25:23):
A major problem occurred, however, as the news of the victory of Mazar spread across Afghanistan.
Osama bin Laden had been granted citizenship.
It was no longer just a guest in the country.
This would allow him to be protected by the Taliban government of Afghanistan and not be handed over to the Americans.
Now, Otto was put on notice by his intel within Mazar that there were Taliban who refused to surrender and had barricaded themselves in one of the schools located in a highly active neighborhood.
(25:50):
Otto warned Dean Nasarag about the threat, told him to trust no one, and make sure that the blue mosque, the most important religious site of the city and also the center of the city, was not harmed in any way.
So you can see that on the map as well.
I marked the blue mosque.
It sits right in the middle of Mazar.
It's a giant piece of the city.
It's a huge structure, very gorgeous building.
(26:12):
The streets of Mazar are empty.
There are dead bodies stacked up on the side of the roads.
People are relieved of the arrival of Otto's forces in the Americans, but still know a Taliban threat is in the area.
Now, Doug refers to Mazar in his book as a giant chessboard.
And if you zoom in above the city on the Google Earth, you can see the grid-like layout.
The Taliban were still lurking throughout these neighborhoods, hiding out in houses, businesses, schools, etc.
(26:36):
Now, as the men carefully patrol the city, Otto's men booked it over to Mazar Airport,
which is a huge strategic advantage for the NA and the Americans,
and makes Otto a big player now in this war as he holds this position.
Dostom, whose men are still on horseback coming out of the Tianyi Gap, he is pissed.
He's pissed that Otto broke their agreement and entered the city without him and made it to the airport first.
(27:00):
So, instead of being distracted and irate over Otto's move, Dostom decides that he isn't going to bother with Mazar right now.
He is going to go and take the fortress of Kalai Zhangyi as his power base.
Now, we've talked about Dostom mostly as a general and a fearless soldier through this journey.
However, at the height of his power in Mazar in the 1990s, Dostom is actually a stoic leader and a philanthropist.
(27:24):
Doug points out in the book that he, quote, operated his own airline, programmed his own TV station,
printed his own money, funded schools, and encouraged women and girls to attend, end quote.
Things to Taliban absolutely abhor.
Mazar even had one of the few sanitary water systems in Afghanistan and the residents had electricity running 24 hours a day.
(27:45):
Mazar was a striving metropolis in the 90s because of Dostom.
Now, as Dostom was exiting the gap and figuring out his next steps,
Otto's men were going street by street in Mazar trying to clear out the Taliban.
Gunfights broke out in the streets in which families would have to hide in their homes and pray when the shooting stopped that the Taliban were gone.
Now, Otto did lose some men during this raid.
(28:06):
However, Taliban and al-Qaeda soldiers were on the run.
The school in which the Taliban were holding was an all-girl school in which they, meaning the Taliban,
quote, scratched out the eyes on all of the photographs because they believed the Quran prohibited
the display of these images, end quote.
So like pictures of girls in school and their faces and not being covered.
(28:28):
Yeah.
Now, Otto's men approached the school ready to confront the Taliban, whether a negotiation or a firefight.
The latter would occur instantly.
As Otto's men walked up to the school just about 100 feet away, the doors flew open and gunfire erupted.
The Taliban came running out, unpin their grenades and got as close as they could to Otto's men blowing themselves up and taking some of Otto's men with them.
(28:52):
More and more Taliban came running from the building as Otto's men tried to keep up and kill them before they could get too close.
However, Otto's men were forced to retreat to safety.
The Taliban continued to riddle the neighborhood with bullets.
Very tense situations happening very quickly.
All while this is happening in one neighborhood, Dean and his men were driving through the entrance of Mazar being welcomed by women, men and children yelling blessings at them,
(29:17):
waiting anxiously for the final assault on the Taliban.
Dean noticed people returning to life as they knew it before the Taliban occupation.
Shops were reopening, kids playing in the street, men shaving off their beards, music blasting from boomboxes.
What's a boombox?
It's truly a remarkable scene to him.
As gunfire erupted during this large gathering, the Inners just relieved to see its men shooting in celebration, not an attack on the convoy.
(29:45):
Yeah, that's nice.
Now before Dawson would worry about Kali Jangi, he decided that he, his men and Mitch Nelson's team would also take a ride into Mazar.
Cal Spencer took Dawson for a ride on the gator he was driving, knowing that the general also wanted the parade of power and victory with the Americans by his side just as Otto did earlier in the day.
After the statement to the people of Mazar and Dawson's victory lap, the team headed toward a large structure in the near distance just outside the city.
(30:13):
It was the fortress of Kali Jangi, which in English translates to quote, House of War, end quote.
This is where Dawson and Mitch Nelson's team would now operate from.
Dawson is back in his fortress where he controlled in the 90s.
So when they, when, like you talk about how they like take the city back, like what's to say that the Taliban wouldn't return.
(30:43):
You are just so ahead of me right now.
Okay.
You are.
I mean, I have not read any of this.
Right, exactly.
You're just, you're, you're ahead of the game right now.
Let's put it that way.
Okay.
So save your questions because you're about to find out, you are, you're about to find out like, so they're retreating right now because the Northern Alliance is, is it, they're advancing so fast that the Taliban doesn't have the reinforcements right now to hold them off.
(31:08):
So they're going to leave Mazar and go to Kandunz.
Right.
And that's where in Kandunz is where they're going to pretty much regroup and, and try to reorganize.
Now the last of the teams to arrive in Mazar at the fortress was Sam Diller's team.
He had finally made it.
Diller and the Afghan men with him had the longest march into the city about 20 miles.
(31:33):
Now his horse did not want to like go any further.
Okay.
I'm done.
Yeah.
But Diller was like, you know what, I have rode and fought my whole way through Afghanistan.
I am, he's like, I'm riding you into this fortress.
Yes.
We are finishing out.
And he is in so much pain.
(31:54):
Like he's in so much pain from riding this horse that they like Doug, Doug depicts him
as like grinning kind of like an idiot because he's trying to like ignore how much pain he's
in.
Yeah.
I like, yeah, can't even imagine.
Yeah.
It's actually pretty funny interaction when you, when you read it in the book, he's like
talking to the horse as if it's, you know, like it's going to respond to him.
(32:19):
And the horse is like dead.
Like it's dead tired.
It doesn't even want to move.
Oh gosh, I'm sure.
And he's like, we're going to me and you.
You're making it.
Me and you buddy, we're walking.
I'm riding you into this damn fortress.
We've made it.
Now, everyone had made it from Dehi to Mazar al-Sharif in just two weeks.
Isn't that amazing?
Like, I feel like we've been talking like we're in part three.
(32:42):
We're like halfway through part three right now, just a little bit over.
And I feel like we've been talking about months and months of them moving through the Darya
Souf Valley.
And it's been literally two weeks that all this has happened.
And it's crazy to like think that this is just like the beginning of the war.
(33:05):
And it lasted a long time.
Not just a few weeks.
Yeah.
And we're not making political statements on this podcast.
Nope.
You're talking Cody.
Now Dean's team was holding up in a local residence house named Najib Qorishi, who spoke
perfect English and aspired to be a reporter on the ground, essentially.
(33:28):
He was enamored by the Americans arrival and to have them in his house was like having
celebrities over for dinner.
Najib asked the Americans too many questions and his excitement.
And Dean wondered if he was a Taliban mole, which he wasn't at all.
He was just very excited that the Americans were there and just wanted to, you know, just
like you would like be like, Hey, if I now were to sit down with a celebrity, I'm going
(33:49):
to ask him every question possible.
Yep.
Dean immediately wanted a new safe house, not liking the situation, even though he was
wrong about Najib.
He was just being cautious.
Yes.
Very cautious right now.
It was in a moment's notice.
Dean started her gunfire ring out around the city.
He had also just received the news of Ata's men being attacked at the local girl school.
(34:11):
Dean ordered the team to go check out the situation at the school as he directed their
operations from the safe house.
Stu Mansfield and Brian Lyle were the first two of the American teams to arrive at the
Sultan Razia school.
That's also pinpointed on your map.
They assessed the situation from far enough away to not be in the line of fire.
Inside the school were mostly Pakistani al-Qaeda fighters who were left behind by the retreating
(34:35):
Taliban.
Because remember, these al-Qaeda, they don't care.
They'll blow themselves up.
They don't care.
Yeah.
The Taliban, they'll retreat.
They'll defect.
They'll switch sides.
The Afghan Taliban, if they get the chance, they will fight for the Northern Alliance.
But these foreign Taliban, these foreign al-Qaeda fighters, they don't care.
(34:59):
They're there to kill.
Yep.
And be killed by themselves, basically, if they're going to.
For their cause, yeah.
Ata believed he could get his men in there to negotiate with the men in the school.
They were worried about attacking the school directly due to collateral damage of the surrounding
homes and the nearby blue mosque that they don't want to destroy or have anything happen
(35:20):
to.
Dean suggested a laser precise bomb drop on the school.
However, Ata already had gotten men inside to negotiate by this time and didn't want
them to be casualties in a bomb drop.
The negotiations failed as the men were slaughtered by the al-Qaeda fighters as they approached
the building.
The book, I believe Doug writes that these men that were sent to negotiate were holding
(35:42):
Karan's up as like a sign of peace to the al-Qaeda fighters to let them in and like,
Hey, let's just talk about this.
And then they ended up killing them.
Because that's what al-Qaeda does.
Yep.
Back at Kala Ejangi, Dostom wanted bombs dropped immediately, but Ata again refused and told
Dostom his men had surrounded the building.
(36:02):
Dostom had told his American team, including Spencer Nelson, what he wanted done.
Nelson and Spencer were clueless to his previous conversation with Ata and didn't know the
whole situation on the ground.
So this is important.
Nelson and Spencer, they do not know that Ata's men have the building surrounded and
that Stu Mansfield and Brian Lyle are there.
(36:25):
It's a whole different team.
Yeah.
Acting with Ata.
And now Dostom's men, they don't know the situation.
Dostom just tells Nelson and Spencer, Hey, I want to bomb this building.
Yeah.
Dostom tried to convince the Americans by pointing out how good Nelson was at laser
guiding bombs in.
Colonel Bowers and Nelson, however, believed Dostom was acting too quickly and hundreds
(36:46):
of civilian lives were at risk, dropping Ornance in such a tightly packed neighborhood.
Nelson's team had arrived at the school.
Sonny Tatum, Air Force Combat Controller and Mike Spann of the CIA moved from building
to building to find the best spot to target the school.
Tatum gauged in the building about 300 yards from their position, which was too dangerous
to call in an airstrike without being at risk of being blown up as well.
(37:09):
Tatum also didn't have a clear shot with the laser.
It was too risky with all the buildings between him and the school being around the same height.
So he knew he would have to get even closer to be accurate and almost impossible task.
However, there was another option.
Tatum told Spann, they need to get over to the school in order to pick up its GPS coordinates.
(37:30):
They made their way to the building undetected.
They shuffled along the outer walls of the building, writing down the coordinates on
every corner.
Tatum was on high alert thinking they'd be spotted by the Al Qaeda soldiers inside at
any moment.
Luckily, they weren't.
After they were done, they hurried back to a tall building for overwatch.
Tatum quickly radioed to the lead F-18 pilot overhead that the building was a T-shape.
(37:54):
The pilot confirmed the visual.
Then Tatum sent along the coordinates him and Spann had gathered.
They both squatted and waited for the jet fighters to approach.
Now here's the kicker.
Dean's team working with Atta's men, who were attempting more negotiations inside the
building and luckily hadn't been killed yet, did not know that Nelson's team was there
plotting a bomb strike.
(38:17):
So this is what I was talking about with Atta and Dostum not giving their teams all the
information.
Now, Brian Lyle was trying to reach Nelson at Kalei Jangi, but his radio was not working.
So he had no idea that Nelson knew of the siege at the school.
He also wanted to let Nelson know him and Mansfield were present at the school observing
the siege.
Dean, back at the safe house, also realized that the teams entered Mazar at such different
(38:41):
times in the day that no one had updated each other on locations.
So this whole situation at this girl, all girls school is happening and everyone's finally
going, huh, wait a minute, I haven't heard from them in a while.
Now, they were all working on current situations so quickly and oddly enough, it would happen
(39:02):
to be the same situation.
Dean and Master Sergeant Brad Highland were about to leave and head over to the school
when boom, giant explosion very close.
Dean saw how close the mushroom cloud was and was very surprised.
The safe house was only about three or four blocks away from the school.
Dean thought, quote, who the fuck just dropped that bomb, end quote, and then immediately,
(39:27):
quote, Otto's men just got smoked, end quote at the school.
Dean now was fearful of the fact he would have to notify Otto that the United States
military just killed his men.
Tatum over with span at the Overwatch building ordered a second airstrike.
The GPS guided bombs had struck directly in the center of the building.
In an instance, Al-Qaeda soldiers ran from the building and started to disappear.
(39:51):
Now there was another problem.
Mansfield and Lyell were two blocks away from the school when the bombs hit.
Immediately Otto's men, who were with them at their truck, started to look at them like
they were responsible.
Mansfield held up his radio and started shouting that he had nothing to do with the airstrike.
There was much confusion and so many what ifs going through their heads.
(40:11):
Mansfield knew Otto's men had just been killed and felt horrible.
He also knew that Dean had arrived at the scene and it was possible he could have potentially
been in the building too.
As more and more men started to exit the shattered building, Tatum continued to call
in immediate strikes before the men could escape and disappear.
Tatum feared these men being loose in the streets, but noticed that citizens and neighbors
(40:31):
were chasing down the men attacking them.
It was their revenge since the 1998 Taliban and Al-Qaeda joint takeover of the city.
Dean was back at the safe house waiting for Otto's return.
He was feeling terrible just like Mansfield was, that he had to reveal this news to Otto
and although he didn't call in those bombs, he still felt responsible for Otto's men
that had died.
As Otto entered the room, Dean could tell already that he knew of the situation.
(40:56):
However, Dean was very surprised when Otto exclaimed to him, quote, these things happen
in war.
These nine people will not change the outcome of the war.
It is very sad, but we understand, end quote.
Now Dean realized that Otto was speaking with wisdom and understanding and not cold-heartedness
as Doug in his book describes this interaction.
Interesting.
Yeah, so Dean was like so worried that this was going to be like backfire on him and Otto
(41:21):
is going to be pissed and Otto pretty much was like, it is what it is.
Well we killed Al-Qaeda guys too, didn't we?
And this is a war.
So it's true.
You're going to lose people.
Exactly.
With the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fleeing to Kondunz, the war shifts in a more eerie direction.
(41:42):
Around 250,000 people live in the area of Kondunz, which is now swarming with Taliban
and Al-Qaeda extremists.
Now this is the city just east of Mazar that they're all kind of regrouping in.
General Dostam does not want to get into an urban altercation at Kondunz, knowing that
he is at a major disadvantage.
(42:04):
What he does next errs on the side of diplomacy and politics.
He summons his arch-rival and Taliban commander Mullah Faisal to Mazar to negotiate terms of
Taliban surrender.
Dostam figures if he can get Faisal's 10,000-man fighting force off the chessboard, Kondunz
will be easier to take out of their control.
Dostam wanted Faisal to have the Al-Qaeda men of his group surrender.
(42:28):
The Taliban amongst his men were more than willing to do so already.
Faisal in return wanted safe passage from Kondunz to Herat, which was about 60 miles
to the west of Mazar.
So to get to Herat they'd have to come through Mazar from east to west.
Faisal even offered up $500,000 for the safe passage.
(42:50):
The negotiation ended in an agreement and a handshake.
They went out and announced the terms.
13,000 Taliban and Al-Qaeda soldiers would surrender in Kondunz.
Dostam cheerfully declared this was the end of the war with the Taliban and that the Taliban
should not feel defeated but rather feel reunited with their fellow Afghans.
(43:18):
Dostam was also now elated that he could strengthen his fighting force and acquire tanks and weapons
from the surrendering Taliban.
Not to mention he also had $500,000 more.
Now Faisal and his men loaded up in their trucks and left the fortress.
(43:39):
Colonel Bowers did not like the feeling he was having about what just occurred.
Like we just said, this handshake agreement seemed too good to be true to him as well.
Bowers thought Dostam was overconfident in his ability to force the surrender and maybe
even overlooked his power.
He also may have thought he was naive to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
(44:00):
Faisal was also quote vague about the surrender end quote.
Furthermore Faisal failed to tell his men that they would first be held prisoner before
being allowed to travel through to Harat.
He did not mention that the Afghan Taliban would be let go and the Al-Qaeda members fate
was yet to be decided.
He just told them that any car with a picture of Masoud or Dostam on the window would be
(44:25):
allowed passage.
He purposefully withheld this information from his men so that they would take action.
The money given to Dostam was just a smoke screen.
Faisal was planning to attack Mazar to retake the city.
He just needed to buy some time.
Faisal knew taking back Mazar would send the Americans packing and the country would fall
(44:46):
back into total Taliban control.
On November 24th 2001, 600 exhausted Taliban soldiers had walked and driven to the outskirts
of Mazar.
These men were there to surrender to Dostam at Kali Jangi and be given safe passage to
Harat.
What would happen next would be an ambush leaving one American dead in a grueling fight
(45:10):
for control of the giant fortress.
Yes, unfortunately we are going to have an American casualty but the cliffhanger is who
is it so definitely stick around for our last part.
(45:32):
The finale.
The finale of our horse soldier series about the siege at Kali Jangi and following that
we will have the interview with New York Times bestselling author of horse soldiers
Doug Stanton which I'm really excited about.
Yeah, it's so exciting.
(45:53):
So we're going to get Doug's perspective.
We're going to ask him a few questions about the book, how his again book was turned into
a Hollywood movie, his experience going over to Afghanistan and seeing these places he
was writing about it's going to be a really cool interview to put the exclamation point
(46:13):
on this four part series.
So please, please, please make sure you tune in next week for part four.
Yep, I'm excited.
Oh yeah, me too.
Very pumped for that.
Thank you everyone again for listening to the history on the rocks podcast.
(46:38):
We hope you enjoyed part three of horse soldiers.
Again, join us next week for part four and our interview with Doug Stanton.
I hope you guys have a great weekend.
Get some drinks in, relax.
Anything else from you?
Have a great weekend everybody and we'll talk to you next week.
Cheers.
(46:58):
Cheers.
Leave a Ulster.
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