RE-RELEASE 1: Thought I Was Helping! Why Strong Couples Still Miss the Mental Load

Welcome to our REWOUND RE-RELEASE Bonus Series. These are our TOP episodes ever, so we're bringing them back as bonus video episodes.

Ever thought, "But I am helping!" — and still ended up in a fight?
This episode is for every couple who’s ever tripped over the invisible burden of mental load.

In this top re-release from Honey, We Need to Chat, we dive into the subtle but powerful dynamics that can derail even well-intentioned partners. Amy shares what mental load actually looks like (hint: it’s not just housework), and Blair reflects on what it felt like to realise he was missing it — despite thinking he was doing the right thing.

We talk about:

• Why mental load feels so heavy (and so unseen)

• How good guys can still miss the mark

• Real scripts for starting a conversation without shame or blame

• The invisible work of parenting, household management, and emotional planning

• How to share the load without turning it into a scoreboard

Whether you’re the one carrying too much or just starting to notice the weight, this one’s worth a listen — and a share with your partner.

👉 If you’ve ever heard “just let me know how to help”… this is the episode.

Visit www.honeyweneedtochat for free check-in prompts, relationship reflection tools, and powerful starter phrases to reconnect with your partner.

➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Book a Free Clarity Session with Amy! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🎧 Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

📺 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Watch on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

📥 Get free tools + coaching support: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠honeyweneedtochat.com⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Hello and welcome back to Honey.We Need to chat.
My name is Amy and this is my husband, Blair.
I am. Yeah, we are all about
communication at this podcast. This is something we're
extremely passionate about. We've said it before and we'll
say it again, that when communication dies, bad things
happen. And so the heart behind Honey We
Need to Chat is to be workshopping areas where couples

(00:33):
might get a bit stuck in their communication in their
relationship. Where we get stuck, yeah, where
we have been stuck and where we may get stuck and just kind of
workshop it together as a coupleand then also with you guys.
So that's what we are about. Welcome to our chit chat
episode. How you going today, babe?
Good babes. Yeah, I am.

(00:54):
If we're going to do how we out of 10, I am a 9.5.
Wow, I'm. Good.
I'm feeling really good again. A lot of my this is can be real
negative and it's not for today's episode, but I find a
lot of value and self worth out of productivity.

(01:15):
And so last episode, I believe it was last episode or 11
recently anyway, I spoke about how I had a really low mental
health day or a couple of days and it was because I did not
feel confident in the work that I was doing, which made me feel
unproductive, which made me feelvery low.
I've had a really great weak, productive and productive, yeah,

(01:37):
kicking some butt, yeah, tickingthe boxes and I feel really,
really good. Yeah, yeah.
So 9.5 you. Yeah, I'd say probably maybe an
8.5. I was a bit tired today.
Yeah, she's like a nap. I did, yes.
So that's where I'm at. But yeah, pretty good.
Another nap. I should have had another.

(01:59):
Nap. But before we get into the topic
today, I really I again I sometimes I'm in my head a
little bit about how much we repeat ourselves, but I'm gonna
do it anyway 'cause I don't care.
Yeah, but I, I seriously, a partof my 9.5 is I'm still on a bit
of a high from the engagement we've been getting from our
listeners. Absolutely.
You know, I mean, I, I think youknow, how long have we been out

(02:21):
for? Literally almost exactly a
month. So I'm going to put a post up
but not even a month yet. It's crazy.
And, and you know, what we hopedfor was Amy and I would have
conversations. These are conversations we're
already having because we're intentional about us growing in
communication, because we see itas such a core foundation in a
relationship. And like, cool, hopefully, you

(02:42):
know, if we help people, that's gonna be fantastic.
But the feedback, it's only justfeedback.
It's the engagement, you know, just the conversations we're
having with people. They're sending in messages and
saying, oh, but this really spoke to me.
This is my situation. This is my story.
And then also, you know, can youtalk about this?
And then, yeah, you know, we've had a couple of those now.
And we're like, oh, cool, how dowe give this justice?

(03:04):
Like, how do we do well in this space?
So anyway, we're looking at someguest speakers and stuff coming
up in the future. I have no idea when, but to
really just help bring a little bit more oomph into those topics
that we're getting that have been written in.
But anyway, I've just been on a high about that.
I've just absolutely loved it. And even just before sitting
down for tonight, I'm having a conversation with a bunch of

(03:25):
guys about tonight's topic, even.
Yeah. And it just.
I just love it. I get so pumped up.
Yeah. It's just conversations.
It's just communication. But the impact that it has on us
individually and then just otherpeople around us is really
powerful. And so I'm just on a high.
I think I'm just really pumped up.
Yeah. Yeah, it's really encouraging.
And I think for me it's just been very affirming or

(03:50):
reaffirming, I guess, of the need of communication.
And that that's just so universal because what we say
and how we navigate communication is just not how
everyone's going to do that. And that's totally fine.
But the fact that so many peopleare engaged in it so far already
is not because we're amazing communicators.
It's because everyone listening,almost everyone listening to

(04:11):
almost every topic has some kindof perspective on it or has
navigated it in some way in their own relationship.
And so it's immediately applicable.
And whether they agree with whatwe say or not, like they're
like, yeah, we've got it. And we've had people disagree,
and that's awesome. What I was going to say is like
one of the conversations I was having tonight was someone
disagreeing with a view that we had.

(04:33):
And there's what's what's awesome though, is he's still
having the conversation with hispartner.
And I was like, I gotcha. This is like, it's again, you
not everyone's going to agree with our point of view.
And I'm completely fine with that.
That's not the point. Our opinions and our views are
not the point. It's having the conversation and
encouraging you guys to have theconversations and to see the

(04:54):
power of that. So yeah, I'm, I'm just blown
away and we want to keep on encouraging you guys right in.
We'll get, you know, because again, we are getting a few now,
which was we just weren't prepared for.
So please, if we do have a little bit of a delay or if we
haven't answered it on a podcastlike answered your questions or
your inquiry, not inquiries, if we.

(05:16):
Haven't. Yeah.
If we haven't responded to whatever you've written in,
yeah. On on the episode, just give us
time. You know, again, we, we were not
prepared for this amount of input.
And so we're in a bit of catch up, but I'm, I'm so thankful for
you guys and just being a part of this with us.
It's just, it's just reconfirms what what our theory, our
thoughts were. Yeah, Thank you.

(05:38):
And I'm going to say before we dive into this chat as well, the
interesting thing we've discovered is that, well, it's
not interesting. This was totally predictable
that most of our listeners are female, which is very normal for
any kind of online content, mostespecially relationship related,
most will be female. But the most feedback we've been

(06:00):
getting genuinely is from men. And it's really interesting.
A few people being like, I was, I saw this stuff and I was like,
oh, that's not gonna be my thing.
And then then I was like, oh whatever, I'll just try it.
And, and then they've gotten really into it and they've
listened to every episode we have and.
They've written. And they've written, yeah, we've
had multiple men that have that are up to date on every episode
and commenting on it. And it's just, it's awesome.

(06:20):
So what I want to say specifically for this episode,
but also in general, like I justchallenge you in this literal
moment right now that you're listening to, just think, who
are three people that I could suggest this podcast to, but
specifically this episode as well?
Who are some men in my life thatI could suggest as podcaster?
Because what we're about to chatabout is something that is
really universal. Again, maybe not the way we

(06:45):
navigate it, but is universal tomost couples and is hopefully
going to be something that's a really good conversation starter
and a tool and resource for evenjust starting that exploration
in your relationship that sometimes guys maybe aren't
aware of. So this episode in particular,

(07:05):
I'd love to challenge you to just think who are people I
could share this with? And also specifically who are
some men in my life that might benefit from this too?
Though I wouldn't necessarily first think men and this
podcast, but it seems to be being a blessing to them.
So yeah, that's our spiel. That's cool.
What is the topic? Yeah.
Well, on that, on that note, thetopic of this episode, this

(07:27):
chitchat is mental load, which is a phrase that we discovered,
I think it was like last year orthe year before.
Sometime. Recently, however, it is a
concept that has been in our relationship since the
beginning. It's just something that I
didn't have a the words for the words for the structure around
it until whenever I discovered it in the last couple years.

(07:48):
And then I was able to. I was like, oh, I saw this reel
that was really intriguing and it was a man that was talking
about in his relationship, no. He's a psychologist for
something, I think. Maybe.
Yeah, it's. I can't even remember who it
was. I just remember seeing the reel
and he was talking about the mental load within a
relationship and the imbalance there and specifically about
grocery shopping, which we'll talk about as we go into the

(08:09):
chat. And so I showed Blair this reel
because he works with dads and also just for our relationship
as well. And then it was like a concept
that was introduced to him. And it was just, it was really
fascinating to kind of realise how much blind spot there is on
both sides to this concept, but how prevalent it is in
relationships. So we thought, and we've

(08:30):
mentioned it on the podcast before in passing, but we
thought it definitely deserved its own chit chat.
Yeah. So that is why we are here
tonight. And what I want to say as well,
a lot of the things that we're talking about in this episode I
struggle with. So it's it's important for me to
say that because again, I don't want to be coming across of
like, all right, guys, you need to be doing this to be doing

(08:52):
that, whatever else. I actually really struggle with
this. And when Amy showed this to me,
it was like a light bulb went off on my head.
I'm like, I do that. I hadn't, I, I hadn't even
thought of this before you brought it to my attention.
And I've shared that to many guys since then.
We've already, we've even made a, a webinar about this for my
work. And it's like, it's so much.

(09:14):
And again, the impact has been huge.
Again, not everyone's going to agree that's completely fine.
A lot of guys just might not seeit.
That's completely fine. What we're trying to do in this
is encourage the conversation. So women, if you're hearing this
episode, we want to encourage you to have this conversation
with your partner and we want totalk about ways in which we can

(09:36):
do that, how you start the conversation and so forth, and
how we did that because that's asensitive thing.
And also, guys, be receptive, like try and let your barriers
down, let your walls down. Just just listen and see and
just just reflect your, your wayof interacting, your way of
communicating the way that you're trying to show love.

(09:57):
Because again, we're going to dive into this soon and just
just here. It's just we really want to
encourage you to listen and reflect and talk last.
That's something that I really have been wrestling with and
trying to grow in is talk last. I'm a verbal processor, so
that's really hard to do, but itactually helps my verbal

(10:20):
processing if I listen first, reflect, then talk and process.
So I just want to encourage thatif that's going to help you guys
and. Just one last little disclaimer
before we dive in. Obviously, this is generalising,
so it's not always men and womenthat will fall into these
categories in this way that we're going to talk about.
Generally, this is how it plays out.

(10:42):
May not be the case for your situation.
So just disclaimer generalising a little bit and just so we
don't have to say the whole way through.
That's that's what we're starting with.
Co Let's dive in, Stuart, guys, we have an exciting update.
What's our exciting update? Patreon.
And Spotify subscription. Spotify sub.

(11:04):
We have some really great quality raw extra content that
we are going to be posting on our Patreon and our Spotify
subscription. So if you are interested in a
little bit more from our episodes, if you get to the end
and you're like, I want one morestory.
It's also going to be a place where we will be updating,
sending resources and just keeping our little community

(11:27):
growing and extending there. So if you're interested at all,
please check it out. We will post about how to sign
up. If you have any questions, let
us know. Get on to the Patreon, get on to
the Spotify subscription. Thank you.
So to start, I thought it would be great to just kind of even
just give a definition of what mental load is.

(11:49):
So mental load. I was doing quick Google.
I found it really well worded ona blog.
So I've just literally taken a word for word and I'm going to
tell you what the blog was, is written by Randy Donahue.
Donahue Donahue. Yeah.
The definition that she wrote out was mental load is the
cognitive and emotional effort used to manage your life and in
many cases, the lives of others.And everything that I can see

(12:14):
about it is it's basically the invisible tasks.
So we all know workload, right? We've heard workload as we've
grown up and gone into the workforce and that kind of
thing. I think even in your family, in
your household, it's fairly easyto see the the physical visible
tasks in terms of workload. You might have that kind of
worked out how that lies with each partner.

(12:37):
But there's a visible task, the mental load is the invisible
tasks that sit on the mind and they take away and they take a
great deal of effort and they actually impact a lot of all the
other aspects of your life. But they're really, they're hard
to kind of express that you can't see them.
And so it's like it's real easy for a partner to not be aware of

(13:00):
them happening. It's even easy for the person
who's got the mental load going on should not really be aware of
what's going on because all theyknow is they're stressed.
They wouldn't necessarily have words around it.
Mental load is the cognitive andemotional effort used to manage
your life and in many cases the lives of others.
So mental load [e-mail].

(13:23):
That was really helpful with just some general ones that
might be common. And the first thing that they
start with is does the refrain of just tell me if you need me
or let me know if I can help. Sound familiar?
And I thought those are great like that.
Those two things on their own isa really good way of kind of
defining what mental load is. So here are some things that

(13:44):
might be causing mental load. Having to remind people to pay
bills or handle other essential tasks.
Needing to offer praise or Pats in the back for handling
necessary chores around the house like the dishes or things
that are just you need to do them.
Keeping track of parenting related daily details like
school plans, after school plans, permission slips, library

(14:05):
books, due dates, doctor's appointments.
Checking in on the kids physicaland emotional needs.
Making to do lists, grocery lists or chore charts.
Purchasing and wrapping gifts for friends and loved ones,
birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, etcetera.
Scheduling date nights, vacations, and visits to family

(14:25):
or friends. Lacking the time to pursue
leisure activities when your partner does have time to pursue
leisure. Leisure activities.
Child care. The presumption that you have
the kids when your partner is going to do something, but you
having to arrange for your partner to have the kids when
you go to do something. Finishing off tasks.
So the partner might do most of the task, but then there's a

(14:47):
little bit that you have to finish up for them because they
haven't completed the task usingthe last of something.
So leaving 1 egg in the egg carton or leaving like a
tablespoon of milk in the milk carton and not replacing or not
letting you know that it's almost empty.
So you'd have to discover on your own.
Another example is leaving only like a few sheets, little
squares of toilet paper on the toilet roll.

(15:09):
I'm not looking at you. I also do it sometimes,
sometimes and getting the house and the family ready for tasks
or the night or when you leave on holidays, those kinds of
things. So this is a list of just
obviously big bunch of random things.
I thought I might dive into a few of these because a few of

(15:29):
these already are applicable to us.
But the first one I thought maybe is a good one to chat
through that we first talked about, which was grocery
shopping. That was the first kind of like
light bulb. Do you want to explain?
Yeah. Because that was, that was what
back in the day, the conversation you brought up.
And that was your example. And now for me was like, oh,
man, that's so true. So, yeah, grocery shopping.
So for example, you know, you, you will go back in the day, you

(15:52):
would go grocery shopping and you've gone through the pantry,
you've gone through the fridge. You've looked at what we need,
you know, do we need dishwashingtablets?
We need whatever else, right? You've done all that.
Then you go with your list to the shops.
And for me, what I was doing waslike, all right, I'm going to do
this. I want to step up.
I'm going to do the groceries because it needs to be done.
I want to step up And and and I don't want to rely on you for

(16:14):
everything. So what I would do is say, Amy,
what do we need? The shops?
I'm going to go shopping. And that right there was the
mental load. I was still relying on Amy to
put the list together for me so I can go do the thing.
And for me, I'm like, I, I'm doing a great thing here.
I am. Well, it's, it's going grocery
shopping. I'm, I'm doing a good thing.
Like I'm doing a responsible thing.

(16:36):
I'm, you know, stepping up to the plate.
I'm, I'm, you know, providing for my family.
I'm not relying on Amy, but I was relying on Amy, which is the
mental light. There were times just.
This is not a big issue, the grocery shopping thing, but I do
remember times where you would go grocery shopping.
And in my head I'm like, I should be grateful he's grocery
shopping, but it still felt likea lot of work.

(16:57):
And I, I never had words to put to it.
I never was like, it feels like it's a lot of work because I am
still having to fill out the list when blah, blah, blah.
Like I just didn't have it clearin my head.
But I was just like, I would feel like a, a, like frustration
or a burden or like an irk with it, even though it's something
that you're doing nice. And so it'd be very easy.
And I think this is what the trap is for couples in general

(17:17):
with this to be like, but he is doing something, but he's doing
something good. I shouldn't like nag he's doing
something good. Or to even be like, I'm really
annoyed and I'm just going to beannoyed.
Like you could either go either way, like dismissing them being
like a negative critical, or youcould go dismissing yourself and
your frustrations because they're like, oh, but they are
doing something good. Or he did.

(17:38):
He did take the bins out three days ago.
So I shouldn't have that kind ofthing.
Like it's a real unless you havea clarity around it, it's easy
to to kind of get lost in this big mess of confusion of mental
load. So I wanna give you an example
of what we came up with after that.
So what could it look like? Right.
So I have a look and I'll see what things we need.
So I do that myself. I don't rely on Amy, but it's OK

(18:01):
for me to come to Amy and say I'm going down the shops, I'm
gonna get XYZ. What else do we need?
So even though I'm still including Amy in the
conversation, it's not putting it all on her.
It's like, no, I'm doing all this.
Just want to check in. Is there anything else?
So that's not a cop out. And then we have to be very
careful with that. I'm not just like finding that
we need eggs, but not for putting anything else on the

(18:22):
list and then relying on Amy, like, no, no, I'm doing my part.
I've done my look, I've I've done that.
But is there anything else that you've spoiled?
And this is really important too.
Like what you said is you didn'tjust bring this up and be like,
Blair, you are putting so much on me, on my mental load.
Like I, I, you know, I feel likeI'm taking on your stuff too.

(18:44):
It was none of that. It was, hey, this is an
interesting thing. What's a way that we can help
you with that? And it feels weird because I
feel like a baby saying this like I really do.
I feel like kind of you're mothering me a little bit in
this space. And it's really annoying.
And I wish it was different. Reality is it's not.

(19:06):
And and this is a big part of the journey for a lot of guys.
And I don't understand why completely.
And we've got some ideas, but for, for some reason, a lot of
guys need that help to think at this level for some reason.
And I was one of them. So yeah, that was being a big
part of this discovery. It's not only just discovering

(19:26):
what it is, but how do I grow inthat?
Yeah. And I think the really big thing
is there are a tonne of culturalthings around this.
So when you become a mom specifically, you enter into
this realm of motherhood and there are lots of opportunities
to get frustrated at your partner.

(19:48):
A lot of the time it was legitimate frustrations.
And I feel like we've said this in so many episodes, like
legitimate frustrations where the husband or the partner just
cannot step up. And it's just when you hear the
story, which it makes sense how it becomes this culture, you
hear this story and you're like,what is that guy's deal?
Like why can he not step up? It's so ridiculous.
That's such a tiny thing. Why does she have to be his

(20:09):
mother, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you just, it just is a self fulfilling prophecy because once
that culture starts, then it's like a big really difficult
machine to stop. Because it is continuing to
reinforce itself. What I've realised, almost none
of those guys I believe, would want to be that way.
Almost none of those guys, if they heard the hurt that they
were causing their partner, almost none of them would just

(20:32):
be satisfied to be like, Oh yeah, that's what I do.
Like genuinely inside they mighthave that front.
I don't know. I think for so many reasons,
they are unaware, not equipped, too scared, insecure, whatever
it might be. There's like a bazillion reasons
that might be thrown at them. And, and once you kind of
ingrain yourselves in your, in the roles of your family, it can

(20:54):
be really hard to change that, especially as you have kids and
you really like your roles just kind of get more and more and
more and more reinforced. And so one huge heart that I
have behind this conversation isit's not about like this is what
guys are missing. This is kind of what you've just
said. It's not what you're missing.
It's sad that you miss it. It's sad that something's

(21:15):
happened. And there's a few things, like
you said though, that I think we've looked into why it might
pan out the way it does. It's sad that it's missing.
It's sad that it's a fact, but it is a fact.
And so you kind of have to be like, what is the goal that I
have for the relationship? What do I want it to be like?
As as the person that struggles more with the mental load, I

(21:35):
could be bitter and frustrated that player doesn't pick up on
some of those things and I couldjust sit in my head and
Stonewall like we talked about in the Four Horsemen episode,
Stonewall like get internal withit, get bitter about it, get
critical about it for a good reason, because I'm doing a lot
of work, but for unproductive and not constructive reasons.

(21:58):
Or I could be like, this is how it is, we need to communicate
through it. This is not what I want our
relationship to be like in five years time.
What I do want it to be like is for us to both feel equipped to
both feel safe to feel like a team.
And that's going to take some steps like you've just said,
that might be might feel a little patronising or might feel

(22:19):
a little like unnecessary, but are going to work towards the
culture that you do want for your family.
I think a big thing too is, you know, again, I want to speak to
the guys here. This is really, this seems to be
bought in, you know what I mean by by both sides of the couple.
Like you, if you brought this tome and I'm like, huh, it is what

(22:42):
it is. Or like, huh, it's funny.
That's gonna be such a kick in the guts.
I would just never talk about itagain.
Exactly. And then it's just gonna be the
way that it is. And that's not fair on you.
But the same time when I say to I love working on this, you
know, I don't know, I've got a long way to go.
I really do. But I love it when I'm like, oh,
I know what I've done. Like, oh, I've, you know, I've

(23:03):
done, I, I've looked at the shopping list and I've asked Amy
what else she wants to be. I, I love that because I know
the difference, you know what I mean?
And, and it's, it feels so pettytalking about the shopping list.
The shopping list is like one ofthe smallest things that we're
talking. About right now, it's just a
very good example. Yeah, don't, Yeah, don't get
caught up on the shopping list thing.
It's just the small thing that started this conversation for

(23:26):
us. Yeah.
So when you guys are having thisconversation at home, move on
from just the shopping list. It's not a shopping list
conversation. It's a mental load in general
conversation, yeah. Yeah, as I was going through it,
I even said to play before like a few of these are things that
I, I do see in our relationship and.
It's nervous. Not to be critical.
It's not to be critical because there's so much, there's so much

(23:48):
that goes into how we've ended up this way.
And I was even saying when we were preparing to, I don't know
how I ended up in this role. Like I'm really intrigued by how
this happens. Not because it's been done to
me, but like I wasn't super independent or super well
established in managing a household before we got
together. And you actually were really
independent and very, very capable of managing your

(24:10):
household. So it's funny that this just
naturally is how it progresses. One thought and I wanted, I
wanted to run it by you to see how you see it or what you feel
about it. Do you think that because I work
more than you and you're at homemore with the kids and
surrounded by that, do you thinkthat has a big part to play in
it? So the other part too is So what

(24:34):
my burnout, I didn't work for about a year right now.
This was isn't completely true because I was having a lot of
mental health issues that you still have to take step in for,
which is a whole other thing. And you had to get counselling
over my burnout too, right? Like it was a big, big thing.
But that season of me being a stay at home dad opened my eyes

(24:54):
so much more to the mental load stuff because I had I couldn't
rely on you anymore. You weren't there.
You were working. I was at home with the kids.
Our kids weren't in school yet. I was at home with the kids.
And all of those things did comeon to me.
So I feel like it gave me a whole other level of
appreciation of what you did, what my mom used to do, what
other moms do. And and now like there's a

(25:16):
there's a lot more stay at home dads now than ever before.
I had this whole level of appreciation for the stay at
home parent. What are your thoughts on that
in terms of obviously it's not the answer, but how much of that
would impact? Yeah, I definitely think that
played a part. I also think my personality

(25:38):
plays a part. Like I'm, I'm a warrior.
So I just not a warrior like a fighter, like a warrior, like a
bite, bite my nails. And I worry it's usually built
by Warrior. I'm a warrior woman.
I'm a warrior. Woman, I mean, I am, but.
You are. You are.
I am an anxious personality. I can be anxious and so my mind

(25:59):
is the kind of mind that would overthink things or would like,
you know, see things that could happen and catastrophic thinking
and how to prevent the things that I'm catastrophic really
thinking about and that kind of thing.
So I think there's that aspect too.
There's how you how you brought up would be a part of it, like
your family dynamics, the roles that your parents played, how
you just naturally fall into them.
Like I said, I wasn't super like, what would you call it?

(26:23):
Not maternal because it's not motherhood, but Superwoman
Nernal. I wasn't like in that role
before we were together, but because I had seen more
traditional roles in my parents potentially, when we did get
together, it was like, OK, that's where I'm going.
So my brain just went there. But I did actually look up a
couple things that will help. There's a study that was done by

(26:44):
someone who's a student at Harvard I believe that was
really interesting on Mental Lord.
And also just a few points on why it is that it usually ends
up the woman with more mental load and why the man might
struggle to identify it. So firstly there was a a study
done by this student called Allison Damager and it is on the

(27:06):
household labour or the cognitive dimension of household
labour to be specific, which is the cognitive side of the
household labour. Which is a lot of words.
Yeah, a lot of words. Exactly.
And she really interestingly dived divided mental load into
four different aspects. So there's anticipating,
identifying, deciding and monitoring.
And so anticipating means looking ahead at what's coming.

(27:31):
So you could put the example they they have in this article
is anticipating this the school year that's coming, looking for
schools. You know, you need to get a
school for your kids. So you're like, oh, I need to
get on to that. That's anticipating.
That's part of the mental load. Then there is identifying, and
that involves things like setting up tours to schools or
identifying what options of schools are around, or talking

(27:51):
to your friends about what schools might be good or
thinking about your kid and whatthey might need in their school,
that kind of thing. So you've got, you've
anticipated that's coming up, I need to get onto it.
Then you've identified what's around, what are the options?
Then the next step is deciding. So choosing the best school for
your kid. You've gone to the tours, now
you're deciding on it. You're deciding on what works
for your budget. You're deciding on what works

(28:11):
for your house and then the 4th 1 is monitoring, so that is
making sure all the paperwork isin, is making sure all the
school supplies are ready, all the uniforms are ready, that the
child's ready for first day. So there's four different steps
to mental load. Looking ahead, recognising what
you need to do to do that, making decisions once you've
recognised what needs to be doneand then also monitoring on the
other side to make sure it's been done well.

(28:33):
And sorry, when they did this study, they looked at 35
different sets of parents specifically and tried to figure
out where the tasks sat within the couple.
And they found out the women were much more likely to handle
the anticipating part, the firstpart.
So flagging this is coming up. We got to think about this thing
about this and then also more likely to handle the monitoring

(28:54):
on the other side to make sure it's been done well.
Then they said that they're deciding making the decisions
factor was fairly equal between the two.
So it wasn't necessarily super 1sided.
They also didn't have, for some reason, the result for
identifying. So the part where you're looking
at what schools are good, I'm assuming that's kind of part of
the deciding factor because you're looking at this school's

(29:16):
good and this school's good and then you decide on the school.
So that's probably more of a partnership thing.
I thought that was really interesting because I think that
plays out big time in our relationship.
I will. Things like doctor's
appointments or yeah, the schoolstuff was a big thing too,
getting that stuff in and then also making sure all the little
things are done, like their applications were done where
their birth certificates are. So I can get their birth

(29:38):
certificates on their applications.
If it's, if you're talking aboutdoctor's appointments, going on
the other side of a doctor's appointment and being like, Oh
yeah, I need to get back to the ENT to get into them, get their
grommets checked and that's a year from now.
So I got to make sure I'm doing that.
And then whenever they complain of a sore ear, I'm like, oh,
when is that doctor's appointment about the grommets
kind of thing? Whereas you don't have much of
that follow up, not. Not at home but I do with work

(30:01):
and this was going. To yeah.
And that's, that's, I think that's the case is like we said
at the beginning, generalising so you would have mental load
for work 100%. This is more talking about the
mental load that ends up in the household.
How do they, does it say anything about how they get to
that point? Like how do they measure that?
So, OK, so just hearing you say that I'm like, OK, I'll do all

(30:23):
those things at work, but why does it not translate?
To home, yeah. Is there anything in there
about? That I looked up another thing,
which is, and this is just to behonest, it was just ChatGPT.
I discussed ChatGPT why guys can't do mental load and they,
it came back with a few things and I thought they were pretty
good. So there's five things that were
as identified that may feed intowhy guys don't carry the mental

(30:46):
load at home as often. So socialisation, which is like
traditional gender roles that are assigned to women as
primarily responsible for the household and emotional labour,
while men may be socialised to prioritise other aspects like
work life or personal pursuits. So that's one thing and I think
that would be a huge thing and like you said, probably changing

(31:08):
as we go forward. Second, lack of experience.
Men might not have first hand experience with the mental
burden of managing multiple tasks and responsibilities,
especially if they haven't been actively involved in the
household and caregiving duties.So as we've also identified
before moms, when you have a child, there's so much even just
physically that is just automatically the mom is just

(31:31):
automatically kind of fed right into that role.
Being pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding, the connection
that you have with your kid, notthat you're the dad doesn't have
it, but there's just this level of comfort that the mom provides
for the baby in the first year that is often very special.
So you're just very quickly put right into that role naturally.

(31:52):
And so I think the more opportunities to kind of to
balance out some of those mentalloads in that in those first
moments of establishing your family, whether it's as a couple
or as a as parents, if it's not caught and and established, then
it'd be really easy to just, that's the pattern that you go
into. The man doesn't have experience

(32:13):
managing how many feeds a day the baby needs and when it needs
to nap and how to get the kid toschool while the baby's napping
because he's been at work and it's been automatically the
mom's role. And so when you don't have
experience and you don't have that kind of repetition of that
task, it would automatically notbe on the top of the guy's mind.
It's interesting is you're sharing that stuff too.

(32:35):
And and again, this is an unfinished thought, but I'm, I'm
in my head. I remember back to a
conversation I had with a friendof mine.
Now we've got a daughter and multiple boys.
He has a daughter and multiple boys.
And we may my mate, we're makingthis observation that our
daughter, so I believe for us, we've given equal responsibility

(32:57):
amongst our kids and especially looking after our youngest, you
know, I mean, we encourage wrotethem all to do to feed him to,
you know, get his clothes to like get him off the window
because he's climbing up the window and or at the doggy door,
whatever else. I feel like we've actually tried
to really, I feel like we've we've done a pretty good job in
sharing a load across all of them.

(33:19):
But our daughter who is the third oldest, I feel naturally
sees things and that sort of Ford projection stuff, this,
she's maybe observed it from you.
I don't know what it is, but both of me and my mate were both
saying that we see this natural maternal or woman womanal.

(33:40):
What have we decided? To call it.
Role coming out in our daughtersalready and they're so young.
So I wonder if it is something that you guys are just built
with. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it's just this observations that you just see.
Yeah, well, something I don't know, that was just really
fascinating. Can you look at such young ages?

(34:00):
I'm like but I'm already seeing that and I she has not been
taught more than our oldest. I think it's really important to
say that just because one partner is more natural at that
and usually it will be the female that is not a bad thing
like it. I don't think at all it's bad
that I'm more naturally in tunedinto these things.

(34:23):
The reason this conversation is important is that these things
can go unsaid. And actually there's a, there's
a big aspect of it not being noticed.
And one thing when you did become a stay at home dad that I
think was really important for us was that the stuff that you
would and not, not that you eversaid anything or were even very
judgmental at all like that, butthere was like stuff.

(34:44):
It would literally be in my head.
You would come home and I would think, Oh my gosh, the house
looks like a mess and I'm a messand I'm tired and everything's
stressful and I've got nothing to prove.
Like I've got nothing to prove that it was stressful.
And I did stuff today and you were always amazing.
Like, you never made me feel badabout that.
But I know that when you did start being with the kids, you

(35:05):
were like, Oh my gosh, I got younothing done.
And I was like, I know. We can relate.
And so there's a huge part of itthat whether the partner says
anything or doesn't say anything, again, the mum guilt
stuff is in your head or the woman guilt stuff is in your
head. And I'd be super intrigued to
know how it does differ from like couples that aren't parents

(35:26):
to couples that are parents. I'd be We weren't parents so
quickly, so we didn't have long enough to.
Well, I had this conversation with a guy this afternoon that
was, he's not a parent. And he was like, it was really
interesting because he was coming from a perspective of, I
don't really struggle with that,though.
Like he didn't get what I was talking about because he's like,
why would I not look for this girl?

(35:47):
Use the shopping analogy example.
He's like, why would you not look through your thing?
And yeah, this is one example. But again, I'll speak to a lot
of dads to my work. And when I'll share about mental
health, this light bulb goes off, man, I, I get that, I see
how I do that and you don't evenrealise it.

(36:09):
And I think that's probably a different.
But again, I've shared it with other guys that don't have kids
and they're like, Oh yeah, I do that too, but nowhere near as
much. It's I feel like it's more for
the dads than this, the non parent guys.
Yeah. And maybe if you're listening
and you are in a relationship that you're, you don't have
children, I'd, we'd love to hearfrom you as well how this plays

(36:31):
out because we know the parent side, we don't know the, the non
parent side very well because there's such a little moment in
our lives. So there's a few other things
that ChatGPT told me that may play into it.
The invisibility of tasks, whichwe've spoken about already.
These tasks are so hard to identify.
So they're not even tasks half the time.

(36:51):
Half the time they're, they're amental task in terms of like
something that takes up energy, but they're not something that
you will ever see the results of.
The amount of things every day that I think about, for one
thing, I overthink. So I really, I wish there was a
way to stop doing that, but you would have no idea The amount of
little, little pieces that I'm just constantly like thinking
about and you will do some of them.

(37:13):
But I think our brains just workso, so differently.
Our brains work differently and males and females brains work
differently and there's a whole bunch of mixes in in amongst
that. So the invisibility of the tasks
being so hard to identify for the person doing it themselves,
and then even more so for the person that isn't doing it, I
think that's a big reason why the mental load gets imbalanced.

(37:34):
Can you elaborate what you mean by invisibility of tasks?
So the example they have is suchas remembering appointments and
anticipating needs, it might be less visible or easily
overlooked by those who aren't directly responsible for them.
So because you're not directly responsible for my dentist
appointments or or even the kidsdoctor's appointments, there's
very few times that you've ever had anything to do with taking

(37:57):
the kids. And actually one of the one of
the ones that's not listed is deciding if they need to go to
the doctor or not. And in the early days, our kids
were sick all the time. And I get stressed.
I get really stressed about thembeing sick.
And I remember us having conversations where I'm like, I
need you to tell me if you thinkthey need to go because I would
just sit there and I'll be like,are they sick enough to go to
the doctor's? I don't know.
I don't know, I don't know. And it's just like round and

(38:17):
round and round. And like, it literally made me
feel sick, like heavy because I just, I had to decide if I take
my kid to the doctor or not. And even that didn't sit in your
head the same way. Like you'd be like, oh, they're
sick. And I hate that.
But that would kind of be the extent of it.
So things like that, like thinking, oh, they're sick, I
should take them to the doctor, but I can't take them to that

(38:38):
doctor because that doctor's closed.
Or a call before 8:30 to get them into the doctor there.
And if that doctor doesn't have appointments, I'm going to have
to either take them to the emergency department, if I take
them to the emergency department, blah, blah, blah,
blah, that kind of thing. I think that's a perfect example
of teamwork, right? Because again, women's brains
and men's brains are different, you know.
And, and I think for me, I can compartmentalise things better

(39:01):
than you. And so again, yeah, OK, I've got
my areas I need to work on. Mental load is one of them.
But the same time when you're ina space where you can't process
your thoughts, you can't trust your thoughts or whatever else,
I can be that more clarity to the situation because I've got
compartmentalise. Because I, I think back in the

(39:21):
early days, 02, I was a little learning curve for me too,
because I don't know what it is with us guys and going to the
doctors and that's a whole othertopic too.
But even with the kids, I think I was like, oh, no, they're
fine, they're fine. But that wasn't helpful for you
to just say like, no, no, no, they're fine.
They're fine. I had to say in a way that you
would receive it and that would actually calm your brain down.

(39:43):
No, they're not fine. They are fine because last time
the doctor said this, this and this, we haven't seen those
symptoms yet. We haven't seen those symptoms
yet. So we don't need to do that yet.
We will go do that when we get to this point or if they get to
this point sometimes as well. It was just a matter of I could
see where you were at. I'm like, Yep, you take them to
the doctor. It wasn't even for the kids

(40:04):
sake, it was for your sake, right.
That was another learning curve for us as well.
So to yeah, just so we don't come across like we're guy
bashing here. Because.
I don't like getting bashed. It's not that we're not doing
that. We're just talking about.
This is an area generally, generally generally.
Generally. Guys struggle with guys struggle

(40:27):
with other stuff too, so this isa way that we can complement.
The fourth thing that ChatGPT told me was that there might be
communication barriers that playinto it.
We. Still have podcasts on?
That Oh my gosh, some men and women may not effectively
communicate about the division of labour and the emotional toll
of mental load, leading to misunderstandings or assumptions
about each other's roles and responsibilities.

(40:49):
I think that kind of plays into the previous one, the invisible
tasks. It'd be easy to look at someone
carrying mental load and think they're not doing this, this and
this, or they could do that easybecause that's all they've got
to do today and not think about the invisible parts of it.
And if you can't communicate as the partner that's balancing
that. Like I said, I didn't have a

(41:09):
freight. I didn't have terminology around
it. It was very hard for me to say,
yeah, but I get stressed about it.
Like, what is that? That doesn't mean anything.
It's like, OK, don't get stressed about it.
Like I'll OK, I'll get stressed about it.
That doesn't that doesn't communicate well.
So if you don't have the terminology around it, you don't
have like and understanding of what's happening for you and you

(41:29):
can't communicate it, it's not going to.
It's going to be really hard to tackle that because they only
know what they know. The same thing as we've spoken
about before. Until I can communicate what's
going on for myself, it's kind of still my responsibility.
Then when I can communicate it, then it becomes our
responsibility and our team workon it.
And then the 4th, the fifth one is cultural norms.
So cultural norms and expectations around masculinity

(41:52):
may discourage men from acknowledging or addressing
issues related to emotional labour and mental load, viewing
them as signs of weakness or femininity.
I think that's probably why the people that write in the most
are guys, because the feedback that I've had is guys don't talk
about this. And I'm so passionate about that
too. Again, it's a lot of my work in

(42:12):
the fathering space is there's so many unknowns and you don't
know how to talk about it. You don't know who you can talk
to about it because what's a safe space, right?
And so absolutely, I see that because that's, it's a huge fear
for a lot of guys. Well, we might identify
something, but doing anything about it for a lot of guys is,
is like pulling a tooth out. Like they just, we just really

(42:35):
struggle to do anything about our situation.
And I think, I think the reason is, is because we don't know
what's safe. I feel like for me especially,
and a lot of guys I've spoken to, we need to feel safe.
We don't feel safe. We'll avoid, we will get anxious
when we get anxious, we'll shut down barriers up, all that sort

(42:56):
of stuff. I think it's probably people in
general, but because I'm a guy, I don't identify to myself that
if I don't feel safe, I react inmany different ways, negative
ways. Safety is a really, really big
thing and. I don't think it's easy to
identify that in a guy. I don't think it's easy for me
to look at you reacting out of alack of security and see, oh,

(43:18):
he's he's not feeling secure. Yeah.
What I see not not you specifically, but just in
general, but also you as well. Like what I see is is a
defensiveness or I see a like anaggression or I see a this is
not clear. Just to clarify.
No to A to a point. It is areas.
Maybe. Or like a an apathy.

(43:40):
Apathy. Empathy.
No apathy, like couldn't care, like brushing it off, like a
brushing it off and you're not interested in it.
It's not important. A distraction.
Like there's so many ways that it would play out.
It doesn't look like that scaredlittle boy in the corner.
Like it's not something that immediately evokes a oh, I, I'm
feeling really, I feel for you feeling insecure in it because

(44:03):
of how it plays out. So it's a, it's a just this
messy little conversation or messy little lack of
conversation that can happen if you're not feeling secure and
you're acting out of your insecurity.
I'm not seeing it as insecurity.I'm seeing it as something more
aggressive. Yeah, or something less
interested. And so then my reaction is

(44:23):
reacting to that. It's just a big cycle.
I think this is actually something is going through my
brain now and I think this is really important to identify and
not not putting it all on this. I think there's other factors in
it too, but one of the reasons why I feel like I would put
mental load on you is because you are safe.
Mm hmm. You know, and I again, I'm
actually a shopping thing, but it's, it's just an analogy.

(44:44):
It's just an example. I don't deal with stress well,
right. I don't deal with looking like a
fool. Well, I don't deal with anxiety.
Well, for a lot of guys and and probably girls too.
I'm not a female, I don't know. But for a lot of guys it's fight
or flight. And the flight part is something

(45:06):
that we don't talk about a lot. We talk a lot about the fight
part, but we don't talk about the flight part a lot.
And that comes out in the in thebarriers, in the defensiveness,
in the avoidance in all these different areas.
And I think that's really important to understand because
again, if a couple is going intothis conversation as a female
talking to a male, if you do notcome out in a Safeway, there's

(45:31):
going to be fight or flight. There's going to be
defensiveness as the fight, there's going to be flights, as
in barriers go up and shutting down.
And that's where, again, the conversation is really
important. When the conversation stops, it
allows room for the barriers to go up.
The if the conversation is done badly, the barrier is going up

(45:52):
anyway. If the conversation can be
identified, that needs to be hadby both parties and can done in
a safe environment. I really, I would not be the man
I am today if you were not safe and I've said that before.
Like the conversations that we've had have been as fruitful

(46:12):
as they've been. Our relationship is in is in the
place that it's in now because you've allowed us to have a safe
space. Yeah, We would not be in a place
we did if this was not a safe environment.
And I think, again, just througheverything that we've been
speaking about, it was another Lobot moment that went on for
me. I'm like, Oh yeah.
Because I, I know that if I think back to a small scenario

(46:36):
like going to the shops and doing groceries, I want to do
that. I want to be the, I want to be
reliable. I want to do this.
If I have a hint that I'm not and I'm going to and I'm going
to let down you or I'm going to let down someone else, I'm going
to flight. I'm going to shut down.
I can't do it. Amy, help me.
You know, I'm going to get to that little boy phase of I need

(47:00):
you to help me. Tell me what to do or I'll just
be like, no, you do it, which I haven't done.
But like that's easy for me to get to.
Is I know you do it. I'm shutting down.
I can't do it. Yeah.
Which is really interesting because as you're saying that
it, which I fully, fully appreciate and I think is
totally accurate, how does that play out when it's the woman

(47:22):
then carrying the mental load ofthat?
That's why I'm saying it has to be that mutual thing, Jermaine,
like it's not now it's your responsibility for me to deal
with my stuff. It's not that, you know, when we
when we got to the I was intentional about dealing with
my stuff, right? I've, I've always been
intentional about growing, becoming a better man, better
dad, all that better husband, all that sort of stuff in that

(47:42):
process while I'm trying to do that.
And that's where I'm, again, I'mputting that shout out to the
guys, step up. This is your responsibility.
You know, you, you need to own this.
You need to go on that journey of growing and becoming better.
You need to do that. You know, the, the benefit, the
bonus that I have is that I've got you.
Do you know what I mean? And now my growth is so much

(48:04):
greater because I've got you. It's not reliant on you.
It's the fact that it's better because of you and it's so much
more freeing, rewarding. And I, I have no concerns about
our relationship because I feel so safe and confident in it
because of the way that we've established that safety for each
other and, and we've allowed that growth for each other.

(48:27):
You don't put your stuff on me. I don't put myself on you, but I
own your stuff and you own my stuff because we're A-Team.
That's the big difference. It's not me saying like, I know,
I mean, you need to carry me andhelp me through all my things,
blah, blah, blah. No, no, no, I'm working on my
stuff. I need to own that and I will
own that while I'm doing that. We are a team and you are
bringing so much more to my growth than if I was just doing

(48:49):
it on my own. Yeah, I think it's really
important to highlight that we had this conversation the first
time, let's say two years ago and it started with the grocery
talk. Then that kind of expanded a
little bit. Even tonight when I was going
through this list, I was like, there are still lots of things
that I carry the mental load forand I will.
And I don't think I don't think the point of this is the woman

(49:12):
shouldn't carry the mental load.I think the point of it is have
the conversation about about that mental load because if if
it's unsaid, that's when the mismatched expectations and the
hurt can come in and the imbalance.
But there's still things on thislist that I went through that I
was like, Oh yeah, that's I do that.
Blair hasn't done that. I do that play not in like a

(49:34):
Blair doesn't do it. It's just that's how we
naturally play out. So one really important thing
sort of talking about that beinga secure, safe place, if you
come into this conversation, if you're like, yeah, yeah, this
mental load, I need to talk to my partner about it.
And you come in and say this, this, this, this, this, this,
this, this, this. You don't do that.
I do that. I do all of this.
You don't do this. There's like 25 things.

(49:56):
These are the things straight off the bat.
We need to work on these. It's not going to be fruitful.
You can have a general talk. Like I think we did have a
general talk when we first brought it up.
It wasn't just groceries. That's the first thing.
I was like, this is really interesting.
And then we talked about what that might look like.
Generally. I didn't sit there and say I
didn't even know what they were for one thing.

(50:16):
But I also didn't sit there hopefully and say it's this,
it's this, it's also this, it's this, it's this, it's this, it's
this, it's this. And it's like, pile it on you
because how immobilising would that be?
The way that you did it was you literally showed me that reel,
you know what I mean? And you said, hey, what do you
think about this? And that's what you guys can do.
You can you can go through this episode together and just ask

(50:39):
the question, what do you think about that?
Like, do you think this is something that, you know, how do
we go with this? And and and for the female, you
can share like, oh, actually resonate with this for a little
bit. And and with the guy, you could
be like, yeah, you know, again, really reflects, really have a
look at yourself in a non critical, judgmental way.
It's seriously just, you know, let's let's grow together

(51:02):
mentality, but and just have that conversation from there.
Like what are your thoughts on this topic?
Start there. Yeah, and yeah.
And like even use us as an excuse and be like, I heard this
podcast and I was like, Oh my goodness, that's what I wrestle
with. So this is this is this is
concept that I've now learned about mental load and that's why
I'm always stressed. And that I think about like, you

(51:23):
don't see this, but this is whatI'm navigating.
And so like, you can use us as an excuse if you need to like to
start that conversation. One big thing was you helped me
understand what's going on in your brain.
Yeah, you know what I mean? It wasn't even just a matter of
like, I'm putting all this mental load on you.
She came from the perspective ofhelping me understand what's
going on in your mind. So because you owned it a little

(51:44):
bit too, you owned it in terms of you never communicated that
with me that that was happening because you didn't know, right?
Like you you, but you could haveknown and bottle that stuff.
Communicated so we're. Not communicated, Yeah.
So that's the other part, too. It's not just a conversation
about the guys doing all these things wrong and in some
circumstances, the girls doing the same thing.
It's not about that. It's about helping them

(52:06):
understand what's going internally for you.
Yeah, Yeah. So I guess like similar
challenge that you just put out to the guys, I would put the
challenge out to the women. You, you might be listening to
this and feeling frustrated and exhausted because you're like,
yeah, he doesn't do these things, He doesn't see it, he
doesn't get it, blah, blah, blah.
Whatever it might be. I would challenge you to be

(52:27):
like, genuinely, have I spoken to him about it?
Have I genuinely made it clear to him?
Sometimes the answer to that is going to be yes.
You have tried to make it clear and he hasn't picked it up and
that is valid. So not trying to excuse it, not
saying that it's your problem that he's not helping or aware
of it or he's being critical of you even though he doesn't

(52:47):
understand it. But just do that that second of
a check in with yourself and andthink, have I communicated this
clearly with him? If I haven't, am I willing to?
If you are not willing to communicate it with him, if you
aren't willing to have that awkward conversation, you need
to to think, well what is that going to result in?

(53:07):
Where do I want to be in 5-10 years time?
Am I going to be happy if what we're if the patterns we're in
right now are just going to be reinforced and reinforced
because I just don't want to have that conversation or
because it's just easier for me to do these things?
That's a huge thing actually with mental load.
One of the main reasons is when the partner just doesn't do the
thing right. And there has to be a learning

(53:30):
curve. There has to be a an awkward
time. If you're wanting to hand over
some of these tasks, some of this mental load, you, you have
to be aware that there's going to be a time where things might
get missed, things might be sloppy, things might not be done
the way that you want it to be done.
But just because it's not done the way that you would do it or
the way you want it done, doesn't mean it's not a
progress. And so just being aware of, have

(53:53):
I communicated it? Where do I want to go?
Am I satisfied to stay this way?And if I am, I need to kind of
own that because I'm not coming,I'm choosing not to communicate
it properly. If I'm not satisfied to stay
this way, am I willing to go through the process of it being
an awkward transition time, having to kind of be consistent
with communicating through it and be willing to be OK with

(54:13):
things being done outside of your control, outside of the
way? Because that's a huge thing for
me. It's really hard to watch
someone do something in a way that I don't think is the right
way. But you're not going to get
anywhere if if you keep trying to do it all.
This is a good one. I, I really enjoyed this
because, again, it's something I'm still working on.

(54:34):
And I just, Yeah, again, the amount of conversations I have
with guys where the light bulb goes off, yeah, it's an annoying
thing to struggle with, but it'sa great thing to identify and
it's an awesome thing to work ontogether.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
I think we could talk about it for hours, but we're going to
leave it there. Yeah, we had a lot more topics,
more examples and scenarios, more than just the groceries,

(54:56):
but we just didn't get. There we can have that
conversation by ourselves. We don't need.
We can, absolutely. Yeah, Yeah.
Cool, can I have the? Other.
Yeah. All right.
So the can you please give us feedback on our art rose?
I really want that feedback on our art rose or ideas.
So maybe you guys can write in an outro for us as well.

(55:17):
That'll be fantastic. This week's one done by Chat TPT
And that's the wrap on today's high octane conversation at
Honey. We need to chat, buckle up and
hold tight, because as long as there's another topic on the
horizon, our thrilling ride through the twists and turns of
relationships isn't slowing down.

(55:38):
Gear up for more action next week.
Until then, keep the conversations fiery and the
connections. Electric.
Spicy. Bye.
Thanks for the chat.